In DS9's Season Four two-parter of Homefront and Paradise Lost, a particular faction of Starfleet, led by Sisko's old friend Admiral Leyton, attempts to seize control of the Federation in a military coup. The coup ultimately fails (obviously), but it serves to demonstrate the paranoia over the Dominion threat.

Anyhow, I believe that the Federation already is, and always has been, a military dictatorship. Let's consider the facts, gleaned from many episodes over TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY:

There is a complete absence of civilian prisons and police forces.
We know that Tom Paris was sentenced to a Starfleet penal colony in New Zealand. However, since he was kicked out of Starfleet following his court martial, he must have been a civilian when he was arrested for being a member of the Maquis.

More tellingly, when Bashir's dad had to go to prison for his violation of the ban against genetic enhancement, he went to a military (Starfleet) prison, and he received his sentence from a military officer (an admiral). And yet he was a civilian, his crime completely unrelated to Starfleet.

As far as we know, Earth has neither its own government nor its own police force. President Jaresh-Inyo is able to declare martial law on Earth at the end of Homefront; no mention is made of Earth's civilian police.

Starfleet officers seem to have rather disproportionate influence on Federation politics.
Admirals always seem preoccupied by politics, and they seem to be the only ones with great influence in the Federation. Consider the implication that Starfleet officers always seem to end up with diplomatic postings - this was suggested numerous times for Picard on TNG (though that's understandable). Worf, however, was apparently appointed as ambassador to the Klingon Empire by Admiral Ross (or perhaps Starfleet Command) - wouldn't this be the job of civilian authorities? It doesn't help that we haven't seen any civilian Federation officials (apart from the Prez) since TOS (e.g., the annoying guy in charge of Deep Space Station K-7 in The Trouble with Tribbles and the sick Commissioner woman in Metamorphosis).

Any thoughts?

There is a complete absence of civilian prisons and police forces.
Luigi Novi: The fact that we didn’t see any doesn’t mean there is an absence of them. By the same logic you could conclude that there is a "complete absence" of ice cream parlors, hardware stores, churches, sports stadiums and suburban neighborhoods.

We know that Tom Paris was sentenced to a Starfleet penal colony in New Zealand. However, since he was kicked out of Starfleet following his court martial, he must have been a civilian when he was arrested for being a member of the Maquis.
Luigi Novi: Which means he may have been imprisoned for treason. Where do civilians convicted of treason get imprisoned? I thought they did get put into military prisons, or at least federal prisons.

When Bashir's dad had to go to prison for his violation of the ban against genetic enhancement, he went to a military (Starfleet) prison, and he received his sentence from a military officer (an admiral). And yet he was a civilian, his crime completely unrelated to Starfleet.
Luigi Novi: Genetic engineering for reasons other than repairing sever injuries or correcting birth defects is a Federation crime, not just an Earth crime, which means that it is a matter of interstellar law, rather than just Earth law. Starfleet is the enforcement arm of the Federation, so this made sense to me.

As far as we know, Earth has neither its own government nor its own police force. President Jaresh-Inyo is able to declare martial law on Earth at the end of Homefront; no mention is made of Earth's civilian police.}
Luigi Novi: Again, since it was a matter of interstellar relations (The Federation and the Dominion), Earth isn’t simply a planet in the same sense that Bolarus XI or Betazed is. It is the seat of the Federation govt. Martial law was declared there because that’s where the Changelings were thought to have infiltrated.

Worf, however, was apparently appointed as ambassador to the Klingon Empire by Admiral Ross (or perhaps Starfleet Command) - wouldn't this be the job of civilian authorities?
Luigi Novi: He was offered the job by Chancellor Martok. I don’t know how the Diplomatic Corps would react to this, but you are right because I think I remember a reference somewhere to the Starfleet Diplomatic Corps.

I also agree with you on other grounds, Josh, but my problem is with what I perceive more as a lack of forethought on the part of the writers, who seem to think that Starfleet or the Federation is the default organization of EVERYTHING that goes on the Federation, and that there is no separation of powers or different levels of powers.

For example, I agree with you about Homefront in that we NEVER saw civilian police. Everyone seems to act as if Starfleet officers do everything!

Paris told Janeway in Thirty Days(VOY) that he considered joining the Federation Maritime Patrol. Federation MARITIME Patrol??!! That makes no sense! The Federation is (or should be) an INTERSTELLAR organization that handles INTERSTELLAR matters, not matters of the seas on individual planets!

The most damning comment of all—the one that explicitly states that member planets do not maintain their own civilian police forces apart from Starfleet (which in itself may indicate that member planets give up their sovereignty when joining) was Admiral Watley’s comment to Sisko in Rapture(DS9) that among the things that have to be done for Bajor to join the Federation is that—get this—the Bajoran Militia has to be absorbed into Starfleet! That’s preposterous! Who the hell wrote this line? Just what exactly is their idea of the Federation and Starfleet?

Jake Sisko works for the "Federation News Service." Well, now there’s a news service that I’m SURE is totally objective and upfront during its war coverage!

The Raven, the ship belonging to the Hansens, (Seven of Nine’s family)—who were said in The Gift(VOY) to be totally disinterested in having anything to do with the Federation or Starfleet—looked just like a Federation ship in Dark Frontier(VOY). Same type of hull color. Same type of Bussard Collectors. Same-looking nacelles. Different "class" of ship, if you will, but it should’ve looked like a souped-up 24th century space Winnebago, not just like another Starfleet ship. Why not color red? Or have the name "Raven" applied on the hull in a cursive writing style?

Again, this appears to be a lack of thought on the part of the writers, and in some cases, a lack of budget, rather than the intentional belief that the Federation/Starfleet are communist or socialist organizations. It seems to apply even to a totally capitalist society like the Ferengi. Why does Quark’s Treasure, the shuttle Gaila gives him in Little Green Men(DS9), look EXACTLY like the Ferengi shuttles seen in episodes like The Price(TNG)? How many times have any of you seen a neighbor purchase a brand new tank, or Bradley armored vehicle? Sure, the Hummer is a civilian version of the military Humvee, but it LOOKS different. Quark’s Treasure didn’t. Maybe they didn’t have the budget for a new ship in that episode, but what about the Raven in Dark Frontier? They made a new ship for that ep, so why not make it look like a civilian one? For that matter, why do aliens HAVE to have a vehicle made by their home planet. Americans by Japanese or German cars. Why can’t the Hansons have a Bolian ship? Why can’t Quark have a Zibalian ship, and maybe include a line that "Oh, yeah, the Zibalians. They make the best civilian shuttles!"

Well, we have seen Ferengi pirates carrying Romulan rifles ("Rascals" et al)... and the Cardassians obviously stole their interceptor's design plans from the Defiant, while Starfleet stole their gun ("Field of Fire") plans from the Breen...

But Federation life does seem rather colorless. I think this is partly to avoid making outlandish statements about the future that will look silly in a few years. We either see the Federation-modern look (as seen on every ship in the fleet and some that aren't, like the Raven) or 20th century retro look (like Data's future library in "All Good Things.") We never see 22nd century furniture or hear a 24th century singer. And have we even seen an Earth house from the outside? (Picard's family home of course fell into the retro category) What does a 24th century city look like? What do people drive?

Getting back on topic, I'd say Starfleet is becoming a military dictatorship. Back in Picard's day only 40 ships could be thrown together to stop a Borg attack and they had to meet in the middle of nowhere. By the time we get to "Endgame" there are about that many ships AT EARTH waiting to meet an incoming Borg vessel. Why all this Starfleet presence in orbit? Well, how about three Borg attacks (BoBW, First Contact and Endgame), a Breen blast and the Dominion War. A fleet in Picard's time was 19 ships ("Redemption pt 2"). A fleet in Sisko's time is 600 ("Favor the Bold"). So it seems to me that Starfleet has definitely become more militant as time has gone on. But as for the lack of civil authorities, I really do think that's oversight on the part of the writers rather than any indication of a military government per se. I don't see Starfleet's influence on Federation politics being an inconsistency though; Starfleet is the exploratory and defensive arm of the UFP and the politics of the two are bound to collide regularly.

Paris told Janeway in Thirty Days(VOY) that he considered joining the Federation Maritime Patrol. Federation MARITIME Patrol??!! That makes no sense! The Federation is (or should be) an INTERSTELLAR organization that handles INTERSTELLAR matters, not matters of the seas on individual planets! Luigi

I've always thought that despite the obvious reference to both the federation and to the ocean (maritime) what the writer was trying to convey was the space-going equivalent of either the merchant marine (Can you picture Paris as a "Boomer"?) or the Coast guard

And might there not be a Starfleet Diplomatic Corps in addition to the "civilian" diplomats? They would be the ones trained for First Contact, and would be assigned to embassies to advice the civilian staff on military matters. Also, "ceremonial" guards though trained within other services would also be considered to be part of the diplomatic corps during their tour of duty.

Mostly, however, I think has a lot to do with contemporary news and politics. TOS and TNG had to convince Boomers (Baby-Boomers not Space Traders) that the military could not be totally dismantled because sometimes outside threats are real, but despite the need for discipline, Starfleet was not the kind of military whose legend was the legacy of vietnam. A united government would bring peace and prosperity on Earth so there would be no great need for internal policing. (TOS only had one episode with a cheif security officer: the anti-Sulu of Mirror, Mirror.)

As the situation in the Middle East began to flare up, the need for military-type security was felt more and more, and Trek and starfleet took on more and more true military characteristics without apology.

Starfleet's structure as I feel it should be percieved (This almost certainly does not match the creators' perceptions) is of mixed career military, semi-civilian specialists (who are basically in a position like our "reserves," except their "real" job is on board Starfleet vessels and stations and their employer is the Federation.), and support personell. There is great overlap, as a career military officer could be assigned to work with, or even under a "reserve" officer, etc.

Kirk, Picard, Sisko, and Janeway are career officers. McCoy, Bashir, Ezri Dax, and many guest crewmen, especially those with medical, scientific, or cultural specialties are "reserve" officers. Engineers, cooks, security, etc. are support personell. The three-fold structure is parallelled by the three uniform colors, but the color indicates your posting, not your status. Most people who wear blue, for example, are reservists, but there are more than a few career officers among them. All of the higher-ranking officers in Support are career officers.

Spock, Scott, Beverly Crusher, and Jadzia Dax probably joined Starfleet as reserve officers in their specialties, and then found reasons to apply for "career officer" status, which requires additional training and testing, and affords greater opportunity for promotion. This can especially be seen in some of the sixth and seventh season TNG episodes where Crusher had a story arc.

D.W. March: Well, we have seen Ferengi pirates carrying Romulan rifles ("Rascals" et al)
Luigi Novi: Yeah, and they used a Klingon Bird of Prey in that ep too.

D.W. March: and the Cardassians obviously stole their interceptor's design plans from the Defiant
Luigi Novi: Which ship was this? Which episode?

D.W. March: We never see 22nd century furniture or hear a 24th century singer.
Luigi Novi: Yeah, really. If Return of the Jedi and The Fifth Element can do it (and BEAUTIFULLY so in the latter!), why can’t Trek? We do hear 24th century music, but it’s always either classical, or as guy called it, "space jazz."

D.W. March: And have we even seen an Earth house from the outside? (Picard's family home of course fell into the retro category) What does a 24th century city look like? What do people drive?
Luigi Novi: Exactly. The only types of dwellings we see are San Francisco apartment buildings, and rural areas.

D.W. March: Getting back on topic, I'd say Starfleet is becoming a military dictatorship. Back in Picard's day only 40 ships could be thrown together to stop a Borg attack and they had to meet in the middle of nowhere. By the time we get to "Endgame" there are about that many ships AT EARTH waiting to meet an incoming Borg vessel.
Luigi Novi: Whoa, D.W. First of all, there were only SEVEN other ships in that scene, not 40. And second, aside from the answer to your own question that you yourself provided, the SIZE of a military does not in itself, have anything to do with whether the government is a dictatorship. We destroyed 60% of Saddam Hussein’s equipment in the Gulf War. That doesn’t change the type of government he has.

The most damning comment of all—the one that explicitly states that member planets do not maintain their own civilian police forces apart from Starfleet (which in itself may indicate that member planets give up their sovereignty when joining)

Hold it, are we talking about police force or millita? You say civilian police force here but below you say "Bajoran Militia" (which would be the millitary)

Admiral Watley’s comment to Sisko in Rapture(DS9) that among the things that have to be done for Bajor to join the Federation is that—get this—the Bajoran Militia has to be absorbed into Starfleet! That’s preposterous! Who the hell wrote this line? Just what exactly is their idea of the Federation and Starfleet?

This gets to talking about the question of is the Federation more like the United Nations or the United States. IN TOS and early TNG they seemed to favor being like the UN or NATO (where we have US, British, French and military forces making up the larger UN or NATO forces) Remember the all Vulcan crew that was destroyed by the Space Amoeba. How about Wesley’s line about the Klingon‘s joining the Federation in the ep where Picard gets heart surgery, or the Klingon in “Heart of Glory “ saying he didn‘t know any Klingon‘s served on “human Starfleet vessels.”
In later Trek incarnations they seemed to treat the Federation more like the United States; where individual states stopped keeping their own armies around the time of the Civil War (during that time period they had things like the Tennessee Army or the Virginia army rather than simply the US army.)

I think the Federation may well be an oligarchy; how else can you reasonably sign a treaty that leaves your people on the other side, when they don't want to be (well... unless you LOST of course, but the colonists always seem angry for the concession being made, not a military failure). Note also that in ST:IV the Federation COUNCIL is acting as a JUDICIAL branch. The closest parallel I can think of is the English House of Lords, which has similar authority (or used to anyway). And that certainly was a "civil" court even though they were military officers because they were not court-martialed.

I think (in a related vein) it is increasingly clear that the Earth, during Enterprise, is a military dictatorship. Why? Endless high-level diplomatic decisions are made without a Human civilian in sight. The question is, did this status last or was democracy added later?

The Federation is the ultimate extrapolation of 60's idealism. DS9 would have never, ever been acceptable to Gene Roddenbury, so don't take what most of it says seriously. If we go by the forumla of What would a womanizing hippie think, we would say "Democracy, but one that's participatory." Whatever that means, if anything.

True, true. However, I think that my argument can be supported from evidence in TNG and TOS as well.

Well, we've just been having a similar debate over in the discussion board for "Nemesis." I don't think that the Federation is supposed to be an oligarchy or a military dictatorship.

Many of the points you all have raised--the Federation Maritime Patrol, the lack of civilian police, the fact that Starfleet officers are always involved in civilian affairs, etc.--are great points and I touched on them in the other board. Basically, what I believe is that the fault rests with the writers of Star Trek.

When I watched the STII: Wrath of Khan Director's Cut DVD, there was an interview with the art director. He made a VERY interesting point during the course of the interview. He stated that Nick Meyer, the director of the movie, and himself (the art director) liked details and wanted to incorporate a lot of details into the art and production design. However, the art director said that Gene Roddenberry had never been detail-oriented and that there was thus NO INFORMATION on the structure of Starfleet (ranks, command structure, etc.) or the Federation. Consequently, much of that was invented by the movie people (movies 2-6) as they went along.

However, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise, and the TNG movies (7-10) are NOT built on the foundation of the work done for movies 2-6. (Those movies were made by Paramount, and Rodenberry was completely bypassed.) Instead, they stem from The Next Gen., which was done by Rodenberry after it became clear that he had lost control of the original series and its movie offspring. Therefore, while movies 2-6 are still canonical, subsequent Trek did not incorporate the structure created in those movies but was based on the work of Roddenberry who, as noted previously, was not detail-oriented.

In other words, Star Trek has never been given a proper foundation in terms of an official structure of government, a description of Federation agencies, or anything like that. It has largely been invented by the writers as they go along, and the writers are understandably tied up with getting the story out instead of trying to create an intricate backdrop of political machinery.

Let's not forget "Journey's End".. The "diplomatic" Federation was ready to give the "heave-ho" to some Native Americans who colonized a planet just because of a border dispute between the Federation & the Cardassians. There's a VERY STRONG message in the episode that "History was repeating itself" from the Native American's history of being driven out of their land in the USA. However, FINALLY at the end, the Federation wakes up and decides to let both parties co-exist on the planet...like they couldn't come up with that the first time...DUH!

"Journey's End" was a great ep, btw. But after the Native Americans put up a fight, the UFP agreed to let them remain on the planet. A military dictatorship wouldn't have allowed that.

To Luigi

You asked a on Monday, July 08, 2002 - 09:04 am in response to:

D.W. March: and the Cardassians obviously stole their interceptor's design plans from the Defiant.

Luigi Novi: Which ship was this? Which
episode?

I assume that you have found what ship this is. If not it is also shown in the DS9 Tech Manual. and It can be seen many a time in the Final Episode among others.

also it is on the website:
http://www.stinsv.com/DSn/finalbat.htm#BAT

It is labeled: Cardassian ship under attack from Federation and allied forces

Thanks for trying to help, TtH, but none of the Cardassian ships in that shot are called "Interceptors," nor did they appear after the Defiant first appeared. The ship in question being fired upon is a Cardassian warship, which first appreared in The Wounded(TNG), the first episode in which the Cardassians themselves appeared. The smaller ships are Hideki-class ships, which first appeared, I believe in Profit and Loss(DS9).

An organisation like The U.F.P worries me, they seem willing to do almost anything to cosy up to pretty nasty regimes. In the episode "The Minds Eye", The Klingon ambassidor complains that the Empire cannot violently put down the rebellion on the subject world of Krios, he then says it may be possible to vacate the world and resubjugate it at a later date, but what got me was how indifferent and pragmaticly he mentioned this to Picard who didnt seem at all morally uneasy about this, I thought to myself, what in the blazes is the federation knocking around with an empire like that for? Are they so willing for "peace" that they willingly ally themselves with a repressive, cruel regime, turning a blind eye to the sufferings of those worlds under the Klingon Jackboot. The federation then ferrys a beautiful girl from Krios to Valt to sign a peace treaty, a girl who is considered little more than an indentured hooker for the Valt Chancelor, Picard shrugs this off, citing Starfleets non interference directive, and ships her to her fate. I'd have bloody resigned!! Call me a Whig liberal but I believe there are some traditions that cannot be tolerated. Would anyone want a return to Hindi women throwing them selves on to the burning pyres of their departed husband, No. Would you be happy and stay silent if your government allied itself with a nation that employed child labourers(I know this happens in the real world), would you say to yourself "This is a bit iffy, but I dont want to criticise their labour laws". Do TPTB actually believe that peace at such a high price is a good thing? I know I dont, peace is nice yes, but there are times when it is innapropriate. I assume no-one would have been morally comfortable if the West had coseyed up to the USSR, rather than persuing a policy of containment. Why would this be a bitter pill, because Moscows little empire was an oppressive, decietful and belligerent regime, the people unfortunate enough to be on the wrong side of the Trieste - Stetin curtain were miserable, crushed and skint, the point I make is that the Kremlin was rotten to the core and a regime which impoverished people both materially and spiritually is not in my eyes to be tolerated or nurtured by those who proclaim the banners of freedom and liberty (which the West did), and I feel that if such "peaceful" regimes will tolerate corrupt ones in the name of a quiet life, then they better check the temperature on their moral thermometer.

OF course do we want realism or do we want a fantasy of how everything "should be." Lets not forget that while the west (I'm American and I'm guessing you're British so I know more about what the US did than England) was containing the evil USSR we supported, among other things, The Taliban, Right-Wing death-Squads in El Salvadore, Saddam (who we gave WMDs to that he used on his own people) Saudi Arabia and Iran (who we sold weapon to under Regan.)

Admirable Chrichton: An organisation like The U.F.P worries me, they seem willing to do almost anything to cosy up to pretty nasty regimes…he mentioned this to Picard who didnt seem at all morally uneasy about this, I thought to myself, what in the blazes is the federation knocking around with an empire like that for? Are they so willing for "peace" that they willingly ally themselves with a repressive, cruel regime, turning a blind eye to the sufferings of those worlds under the Klingon Jackboot.
Luigi Novi: The need for peace between the two super powers means that the Federation has to be content with condemning certain sentient rights violations, and stop short of things like war. This is part of the post-Vietnam attitude that TNG embodied. Remember that relations with the Soviet Union improved in the 80’s and 90’s even as their human rights violations continued. We are currently trying to maintain good relations with China for the same reason, in the hopes that exposure to Western culture and democracy will result in reforms, much as it did for Russia. Many decry the fact that we’re trying to improve relations with them and grant them Most Favored Nation trade status, but others respond this actually moves them closer to democracy faster, and that not doing so makes things worse.

Admirable Chrichton: The federation then ferrys a beautiful girl from Krios to Valt to sign a peace treaty, a girl who is considered little more than an indentured hooker for the Valt Chancelor, Picard shrugs this off, citing Starfleets non interference directive…
Luigi Novi: No, he cites the fact that he spoke with both her and Ambassador Briam, and that she made it clear that this is what she wanted. He couldn’t force her to accept a life modeled after Federation citizenship. He did give her the option of asylum, and while she was touched by his concern for her, she made it clear to him that she didn’t need his rescuing, that she wanted to do this, that it was her duty, and that being an empathic metamorph, she feels incomplete without someone close to her for her to morph herself after. He also told Ambassador Briam that on the Enterprise he didn’t have the authority to confine her to her quarters.

Admirable Chrichton: I assume no-one would have been morally comfortable if the West had coseyed up to the USSR, rather than persuing a policy of containment.
Luigi Novi: They did cozy up to the USSR. They didn’t encourage the spread of communism (and certainly paid dearly for such attempts to do so with the Bay of Pigs, Korea and Vietnam), but they did try to improve relations with them.

in all honesty, an organization dedicated to peace and prosperity for all has to sacrifice its principles on occasion for those goals. Adamantly opposing all alien civilizations taht don't live up to your standards is not a way to make peace; on the contrary, doing so will often only encourage war. In fact, I'd say that the Dominion and the Borg hold true to their principles unless forced to do otherwise. Clearly compromise is a necessity to a peaceful civilization like the UFP claims to be.

besides, it's going to be difficult to find common ground with an alien civilization in teh first place, cutting them off if they don't share your values is a bit extreme for a tolerant and understanding society.

Personally, i don't think the UFP is a military dictatorship or a democracy. It is certainly more tolerant and peaceful than a military dictatorship, but the military does seem to have a significantly larger presence than a democracy would allow. I'm thinking something in line with the Roman Republic is involved here. As I recall, Rome had a significant military, but its citizens still had a voice in teh government and enjoyed much greater rights than did people under later governments until about the Middle Ages.

As for Starfleet being involved in civilian matters, i agree that a Federation Maritime is kinda strange, but i also concur with the idea that Paris and Bashir Sr. committed capital crimes and are thus due to serve time in Federal facilities rather than state. Jaresh Inyo declaring martial law did not seem strange to me, as Earth was a potential combat area, and it is within the US President's power today to declare martial law in a state where combat is a possibility. The President can certainly use federal military to keep the peace in a particular state, i don't think the Changling invasion situation was much different.

-JM