I heard this on the episode Empok Nor. Someone kept insisting that Garak was gay. I would like to know your opinion.

No, he's not. He had a girlfriend. At best, he would be bi.

I agree, I mean he was in a relationship with Ziyal. Though i have heard lots of stuff about him liking Bashir, I don't believe a bit

Was he in a 'relationship' with Ziyal? Clearly she was besotted with him but was there any indication that he felt love for her? I always got the impression he was slightly embarrassed by her feelings for him.

I've seen the Is Garak Gay argument going on for a long time and never had any real impression either way until I saw the final episode of Season 5 when they were evacuating the station and Ziyal kissed Garak quite passionately just before she was forced to leave. The look on his face was more one of horror and distaste than surprise - and there certainly didn't seem to be any pleasure in his expression.

But is he gay? Oh, who cares?!!

Garak smiling face hides a great deal of self-loathing. He made a very illuminting comment when he said he never understood why Ziyal loved him.

I think it's because he might still see Ziyal as a child. In one episode he made a comment to a Cardassian made up Kira, that how beautiful she looked.

i always thought that garak was just the extremely disciplined and ruthless. he was a covert operative after all. this type of guy probably isnt inclined to become emotionally attached to anyone, so that it cant be used against him. that would explain his akwardness with ziyal. as far as him being gay, i think you guys are reading way too much into things.

Who cares if Garak is gay? I mean some folks have an awful lot of time on their hands

On another matter relating to DS9's resident tailor-spy, I'd like to know what is Garak's legal status on the station. Is he be a refugee or political defector? Has he lost or renounced his Cardassian citizenship?

Seeing as Garak has been an unofficial crewmember on the Defiant, and has performed codebreaking duties for Starfleet intelligence, he must have some sort of quasi-legal status with the Federation. Perhaps the equivalent of a resident alien.

I kinda thought he sought asylum on DS9 since there was mention that he wasn't welcome on Cardassia.

I think the idea of Garak being gay came from the fact that he makes (gasp!) WOMEN'S CLOTHES!

Please! No twentieth-century stereotyping!

I think Gay Garak is just wishful thinking by the homosexual comunity. I think TPTB tried to put an end to it by giving him a girlfrend. I think an aledged, male spy sewing womens clothes is funny. Try imagining James Bond opening a womens clothing boutique.

You don't have to imagine. Ever watch "The Man From U.N.C.L.E."? Ilya Kurayakin owned a women's boutique (at least he did in one of the telemovies).

Grak gay? I like DS9 but this is becoming obssesion when people start to think about minor characters sexual orientation. I mean who cares? No one in the show does so why do we? We are considering bizzare little details when the sad fact is that DS9 is COMMING TO IT'S END!!! Get with it people.

Giorgi - you're new to nitpicking, right? Because "considering bizarre little details" is what nitpicking's all about!!

You know, Garak may come off in ways that seem to most that he is gay. Maybe in the DS9 world, it may seem gay behavior to humans, but his behavior may be the normal hetersexual male to the cardassions. I have seen some have written that they see an attraction toward Bashier. Who is to say, that is a normal male brotherhood type friendship on Cardassia. What some sees as attraction, might really be a mutal respect toward a friend? Like I said before, he remarked on Kira's beauty in one episode. And he said it with enthusiasm!

Ah...people with no lives try to come up with
theories that have no basis. I mean, come on.
Why can't two guys spend their lunches having
discussions? Why does that make Garak gay?

Exactly. Aren't men allowed to have male friends without the relationship being sexual?

Without commenting on the debate per se, a couple of things...

Sharon, I'm pretty sure that when Garak said to the surgically altered Kira that "I've never seen you looking so...ravishing," he was just teasing her... :-) (Besides, it's certainly possible to see beauty in a gender you're not attracted to!)

Secondly, I've read somewhere that Andrew Robinson has said he has played Garak as sexually interested in Bashir. Perhaps that's why, before "Inter Arma," they hadn't had a scene together since "A Time to Stand"?

Thirdly, Sharon's also right that some Cardassian characteristics happen to be stereotypical gay traits...

Finally, Garak and Bashir do have more chemistry than most of the heterosexual couples on Trek! :-) (Although Mike's point is very well taken...close relationships in TV and movies almost always seem to involve either blood or sex [or both if it's real twisted... :-)])

Bogus frat! Can't two people of the same gender have a close relationship without people assuming that there's sex in it? Do people assume that Kirk and Spock were gay? (Plus McCoy--that would make for an interesting triangle.) How about Picard and Riker? Kira and Dax? Scotty and his engines? (Now that would make for a bizarre relationship!)

Or, stepping outside the Star Trek universe for a moment, how about Starsky and Hutch? That was the first series where I really heard people discussing "male bonding" and "chemistry", yet I don't recall anyone suggesting that they were gay.

Can't anyone have a simple friendship anymore?

Scotty and his engines?!? ROTFL!

Actually, I hope you're not jumping on me for that remark, because I have the same question...

And as for Kirk and Spock...you must be unfamiliar with the wonderful world of fanfic! :-)

Actually, I believe the "Garak is Gay" issue comes from people hoping to find something hidden when the writer's never intended it. The same argument can be said about Bert and Ernie. Some people think they're gay. They take something innocent and hope to find something wrong with it.

I can't see any particular justification for a gay Garak meself. It wouldn't add much to his character (which is, IMHO, one of the best in the series--an alien who isn't confined to the stereotypes of his race! That makes him and a couple of Vulcans and that's about it.)

Corey-

http://fractalcow.com/bert/bert.htm

things are not a innocent as they sometimes seem!!

OK. I usually let nonsense go.
But this whole thread is just dumb. And undoubtedly offensive to some.

So don't click on the folder. Is someone forcing you to visit topics that are of no interest to you? Or are you compelled to click on every icon, read the subject, and comment?

D. K. Henderson asked "Can't anyone have a simple friendship anymore?" I answer: apparently not. Most of the TV shows that I watch or have interest in portray a pair of same sex friends in a major role - and every show has 'slash' fanfic featuring these characters, even if there's absolutely no evidence for homosexuality and plenty against. Those who like slashy stuff will find it everywhere. There also seems to be a Hollywood prejudice against friendships between a male and female - one can't exist without there being sexual attraction as well. I certainly hope Disney's new version of 'The King and I' will prove me wrong.

Actually, it's Sony, not disney.

All the better =)

I just stumbled on this topic and I felt the need to respond to one or two things.

Corey Hines asked why people take something innocent and find something wrong with it. I take offense at this. When I see Garak as gay, I'm finding something different from what he sees, but *not* something wrong! There is nothing wrong with being gay. I wouldn't want to be straight even if I could be.

Several people have asked why two people can't just have a close friendship. Lots of people have very close friendships. However, nowhere in Star Trek has a main character ever had a homosexual relationship that wasn't doomed from the start. It would have been nice to see just one that outlived a token episode. Or to see one man who seemed to prefer men to women. Why can't two people just be in love? There's no more shame in that then there is in friendship.

Garak is a man who could have been very realistically written as gay from the existing material. That way, we could have had a strong gay character whose homosexuality wasn't his defining feature. Chris Ashley said making Garak gay doesn't add anyhting to the charater, and that there's little justification for it. Well, making him straight doesn't add anything either, and there's just as little justification.

Mark

To be fair, shockingly few Star Trek main characters wind up in relationships, straight or otherwise, which aren't doomed.

The only surviving relationship I can recall is O'Brien and Keiko (i.e. married AND still living!)

I'm a person who doesn't really care. If he is that really doesn't change the aspect of his character, the same if he isn't. Mark Stanlet made a fine point about this. Neither him being straight or gay really doesn't change the character, and if he is gay really I don't expect his character to change in any notiacble way.
Though I still don't believe an argument that I've heard about Garak liking Bashir. To me they are just Friends

Tuvok's marriage to his wife has been shown to be unshakeably firm.

Also, had Sisko's wife not died, I believe they would still be together.

I'm with Mark Stanley as well. It's good to regognize Garak for his killer sense of humor and his crafty characteristics. As for Garak liking Bashir, if he did or not, I don't think it's a topic going to come up. Garak is more than likely aware of Bashir's hetersexuality, and will not approach him.(If he is gay, that is) They are in a true sense, a brotherhood friendship. I think they do think alot alike, and enjoy their lunches, like any good friends.

I disagree with Stanley. I do think that people
are trying to take something as innocent as friendship and make it into something it's not.
Garak being gay would be totally out of character...Garak and Bashir have a simple friendship and trying to twist it into a homosexual relationship is pathetic...no offense.

It appears I need to clarify. The fact that we're having this discussion indicates that Garak's preferences have been left ambiguous by the creators. I'm happy to leave it that way, since neither a homo- nor a heterosexual relationship would, IMHO, make Garak a better character at this point in the series.

And really, at this point if the creators decided to have Garak come out, I'd think it looked like pandering. We've only got a few months left with these characters; it's way too late to bring up entirely new relationships.

Just wait! I bet at the finale, like Dukat, Garak really has a really beautiful wife and six kids, and they are all going to visit the station and go "Hi Dad!"
Kidding aside, Chris is right! I think anything Garak is, it's best to leave it to all our imaginations.

> Garak being gay would be totally out of character...

I disagree... and so does the actor who plays Garak, by the way. After being questioned at various conventions, Andy Robinson has generally characterised Garak as sleeping with anything that moves. (Not gay, but bisexual. I can live with that. Good comprimise, no?)

> Garak and Bashir have a simple friendship

I'm willing to entertain that possibility. I'm even willing to consider that Bashir might be completely straight. (I'd consider him bi, but that's just me. Besides, that's a whole other argument.)

However, saying Garak and Bashir's friendship is simple is a bit of a... simplification. It's the most complex and interesting thing to come along in Star Trek since Kirk and Spock. Perhaps that's why everyone likes to argue about it so much.

> and trying to twist it into a homosexual relationship is pathetic...no offense.

How am I expected to *not* take offense to this? It is uncivilised to use inflammatory language such as 'twisted' and 'pathetic' and then rebuff possible critisism by saying 'no offense'. Either mean what you say, and stand up for it, or be quiet.

I'm mostly enjoying the debate here, and I can certainly see the other side of the argument. I even agree than throwing in a definite sexual orientation for Garak at this point would be rather silly and futile. (Hasn't stopped them from doing a lot of things this season, but who am I?) :0)

That's the great thing about Garak. I can say Garak is the biggest queen since Liberace; you can say Garak is as straight as a ruler; using televised evidence, we can both make a good case that we're right. Garak's just too secretive and ambiguous and alien for either of us to prove it. Personally, I love Garak as the mysterious type. Revealing too much would *definitely* be out of character!

I hope the producers leave it that way. That way everyone's happy, and Andy will have more leeway while he finishes Garak's Diary.

After dropping this topic in discust for the futility of it, I have kept reading and am compeledt to agree with Mark 100%. I still think that it is rather foolish to argue over Garak' orientation, for my two cents he is most definatily gay.

He could be playing the Homosexual Male Human sterotype so the Starfleeters will trust him. He could be working for the Cardassians as a spy, and the outcast story being bogus.

"Sisko's Log, stardate 53047.8. He may have a spy from Cardassia on the station or the Defiant. Odo suspects it is Garak, but he is a q****. he couldn't be the spy. I suspect it is Lieut..."

Garak: So, Captain, you have uncovered my plot. Before I kill you, I must tell you my plan. You humans have a fairy tale a bout a spy named Bond James Bond whose opponents always explained there plot to before killing.

When the Federation took over, they left me to spy on the Humans. I felt is wise to get close to one of senior staff. The only female, Dax, was to cold and aloof to suit my purposes. So, I invented this "gay persona" to allow me to move about the station undetected.

Sisko: Secut...

Garak: It's a pitty I won't finish the Majors wedding dress. She would have looked faboulus in it.

My point is that we can't know for certain what Garak is up to. Is his homosexuality just a cover or the real Garak?

Mark -- my sentiments exactly. Very well said!

And..."Sleeping with anything that moves"? LOL! Someone should introduce him to the Intendant, then! :-)

How do you sleep with something that's moving? I prefer them to stand still, or at least stay in the general vicinity.

Well, I don't think it'd have to be moving WHILE he was sleeping with it... :-)

This conversation is quickly degenerating, isn't it? :-)

I heard form someone that in the episode "The Wire" when Garak said "Elim and I were not just working together, we were...Friends." Or something like that. Someone I know took that into account that they were lovers. Even thought we find out at the end of the episode that none of it was true, He still thought that Garak was gay.

Garak's Diary? Is Mr. Robinson writing a DS9 book? Anyone have more info?!

Mark Stanley- Very well put!!!!
Charles Gabe- That's a possibility I never thought of before.....you never know
Mike Konczewski- ROTFLMAO!!!!!!;-)

Charles asks exactly the sort of questions that it's more fun to leave unanswered. I don't know whether it was the rain or Rick's tears that blurred the ink on Ilsa's note; I never will and I never want to. It's waaay more interesting when left ambiguous.

Not that ambiguity is always best, mind you, but for something like "Star Trek" moderate doses can make for ripping good television. My favorite example is "For the Uniform".

Okay maybe I'm mistaken, but didn't Garek make a sexual advance to Worf in the Mirror, Mirror universe. If I'm correct about that it would affirm my own beliefs about Garek, namely that he would sleep with anyone male or female that would further his own goals. I do have to say though that I find it very disappointing that in Star Trek that is supposed to be inclusive of all people that we haven't seen one person that prefers the company of men(if they're male) or prefers the company of women(if they're female). I mean I will admit it, I'm gay in the twentyith(again, bad spelling) century and maybe I'm looking at a 23rd or 24th century society with
20th(that's better) sensibilities, but I mean come on. Have all the lesbians and gays been killed off? I mean even if I look at Trek unemotionally, objectively I still ask that question. I think it's sad that Trek is so concerned about what some people might think that they can't portray future society realistically. I mean we haven't seen not one off-screen character that is lesbian or gay, I mean come on.
And if sexuality is really more where there is no
straight or gay, only sexuality then how come we only seen characters make romantic or sexual references in the heterosexual sense. Okay, I'm going to stop ranting. But what do others out there think?

It's surprising how conservative Roddenberry and his disciples can be sometimes.

Number1GeordiFan: Yes, Andrew Robinson has a book deadline in July for Garak's Diary. Not just some ghostwritten deal, either, he's been working on it on and off for years. Anyone who has been to a convention with him will have heard an excerpt. Personally, I'm hoping a talking book is part of the deal. The man's voice is absolutely electrifying!

Mark
realising he's just written a plug
Ah, well, it's worth it!

Interesting that Mark Stanley should write 'Garak is the biggest queen since Liberace', since Andrew Robinson played Liberace in a (tv?) movie years ago. I also thought the way he played Garak was similar to how he played Liberace.
(That statement does not mean I think Garak is gay because he acts like Liberace. It's very dangerous to judge a person on non-sexual actions like walking, talking, gestures, etc. I've known straight guys who've been beaten up for 'seeming' to be gay.)
The episode Destiny stated that Cardassian men act differently when coming on to women. (I forget exactly what was said.) So judging Garak's sexual preferences by his non-sexual actions would be inaccurate anyway.

Alfonso: You have a point about Alt-Garak being gay. But, that dosen't necessary mean real-Garak is gay. Alt-Kira and Alt-Ezri are lesbians, but real-Kira is obviously strait.

Actually, alt-Garak had a line to the Intendant to the effect of "At least I was able to *please* Kira now and then." To which the Regent replies "You are not my type." And the Intendant is pretty clearly bisexual -- well, more like omnisexual -- although alt-Ezri (who isn't joined, btw) seems to be a lesbian. (Says alt-Brunt: "Her taste in men is very particular.") But "our" Ezri is probably heterosexual, or was before she was joined ("Prodigal Daughter" established that she was in a relationship with some guy, which broke up after she was joined.) I would imagine that to a joined Trill gender wouldn't be a big deal, since they'd have experienced both of them...

And Alfonso, I agree that it's high time we saw a gay character on Trek (who isn't an evil MU counterpart, I mean), although officially outing Garak at this point would really be shoehorned in...

BTW, I think there were some homoerotic undertones in "Chimera" -- I know linking and sex aren't exact analogues, but the parallel is there, and the episode didn't shirk from that...it's probably a bad example, though -- although it's the only m/m example I can think of on Trek, leaving all Garak/Bashir speculation aside for the moment. (Yeah, this may be off topic, but this seems to be evolving into a "Trek and homosexuality" thread, which is fine with me as long as it doesn't turn into a rehash of the TENC fracas [which I sort of helped to start -- sorry about that...])

It has been a while since we've had Garak and Bashir in any scene. It's a shame, isn't it?

To me, it seems that most of the time, no matter what he is doing (from putting down Ezri in "Afterimage" to fighting Klingons in "The Way of The Warrior"), he looks like he is having a very good time. Garak appears to get "too much" enjoyment out of... anything.

Maybe that (and of course, the innuendoes) is what makes our imaginations fly.

The problem, as I see it, is that everyone here is trying to make conclusions about someone (even a fictional someone) based on their outwards actions and appearance. So what if Garak is a tailor, his gestures are a bit dramatic, or he speaks in a certain manner? Just before I came to seminary I managed Men's Fragrances for a department store (i.e., I worked in Cosmetics), I dress well, I have a pierced ear and I carry a men's satchel (a.k.a. a men's purse!). Do you know how many times gay men asked me out on dates? My girlfriend (who worked 75 feet away) was amused!

I find it disturbing that I am categorized by some as a narrow-minded, quasi-Nazi homophobe because I hold certain theological affiliations, and thought to be gay both others who see only a few certain physical characteristics or traits. It's a shame that people both gay and straight made assumptions about me based on certain external criteria, knowing nothing about the depth and complexity of the inner person and my own compassion for those both gay and straight.

So I say let's give Mr. Garak a break. Hey, chances are they're going to pull a Shakespeare with everyone, and kill 'em all like Ye Olde Will did in his tragedies. [Exits, stage right]

I noticed that at the beginning of this board, some people used the fact that Garak had a thing going with Ziyal to say that he wasn't gay. I have to agree with this point, even though it would be cool if Garak were gay. People have said that Garak never took Ziyal's advances seriously, but if you recall the episode "Destiny", Gilora showed her attraction to O'brien by bickering with him. Apparently, this is the way Cardassians do things. And, although Ziyal didn't bicker, as such, she is only half Cardassian. And, since it's been a long time since Garak has been on Cardassia, he would be out of practice. He could still be bi, though.

All those who have been demanding a gay character on Trek might want to watch "Extreme Measures" and ponder. (I'd call it a case of being careful what one wishes for....)

My motto:
Don't ask, don't telletubbie.

This has got to be the stupidest,most inane
line of conversation that i have ever seen posted!
I mean even though I don't agree with homosexaulity I really don't see where it is our
buisness WHAT a certain chaaracters sexual
orientation is or is not.

Get real!

I mean Garak is just a character on a tv show,
does it REALLY matter if he is gay or straight?
I think not because whatever his sexuality it doesn't change the fact that he has been a very
VITAL part of DS9 since season one.

BTW:Khan and Dax kissing...:)

This has got to be the stupidest,most inane
line of conversation that i have ever seen posted!

No, that would be, "Is Jar-Jar Binks Gay?" over on the Star Wars board.

I think that the gay issue on Trek is very important. Trek describes itself as a series of the future. Many real life inventions were designed based on Trek's ideas. As a gay man myself I find it very interesting that there are apparently no homosexuals/bisexuals/trangender people in the future. I assume that the Klingons or the Dominion killed them all.

Well, how do you know that there are no homosexuals and all in the future? Can you tell a person's orientation just by looking at them? How do you know that the ensigns and stuff in te background aren't? How do you know that there aren't people in Starfleet Command aren't? Just because the 40 or so main characters in Trek aren't doesn't mean that none of the billions and billions of other people in the Federation aren't.

There might have been a homosexual on Classic Trek. See my post in The Man Trap for the possible evidence.

I think the fact that no of them ever came to
the forefront in terms of solving any tv show displayed problem shows the creators beliefs of how useful they would be to the future.

You think's bad , I saw a bunch of people on a newgroup saying Pikachu is gay. Were tlaking a fictional cartoon animal from a species that seems to have only one sex here and people think he/it/she is gay!

And what is it with people and "Is xxx Gay? Are the people asking this interested or something and want to confirm if it is okay or not? Or are they just looking for something to rant on about? Or are they just perverts? Or are they just people who ahve too much time on their hands?

I think the posts in the "Is xxx Gay?" type of boards reveal more about the posters's personalities and attittudes than about "xxx" 's sexuality.

I have to agree with you, J. *Nods*

I think the point of this site has changed from whether Garek is gay? to should there be a bigger lesbian/gay presence in Star Trek.

So did anyone else here that theirs going to be a group "Commintment Ceremony"

Jar Jar Binks and Tiwnky Winky

Bert And Ernie

Garak and err.. that one kid from Dawson's creek

(Muttly laugh) >(:){#)

In Profit And Loss, Garak tells Quark that he loves Cardassia. So maybe Garak's a planetsexual?

Would that make Worf an empiresexual, since he so apparently loves the Klingon Empire?

But getting back to this subject (kinda), I'd have liked to see Garak and Dax, and/or Garak and Sisko...maybe Garak and Weyoun. That'd have been interesting...

A couple of people have suggested that there are no homosexuals in the 24th century because they've been killed off. I think a much more plausible suggestion is that they were genetically weeded out--that would explain a lot, like their absence, and Starfleet's stance on genetic engineering. Starfleet, being of the refined 24th-century sensibility (they all get along) realized such weeding out is wrong, and so stopped all genetic engineering. But then that wouldn't explain why Starfleet wouldn't just turn around and start churning out homosexuals to make up for their weeding out. But maybe that would be explained by their stance on genetic engineering, i.e. "two wrongs don't make a right". It's certainly a more plausible suggestion than that the Dominion wiped out all homosexuals (not that there's anything right with that! :) ). With what, a straight virus?

Starfleet? Why would the military manufacture homosexuals?
Has anyone else noticed a trend to confuse "starfleet" with "the federation", among trek writers and fans?

That theory could only work if homosexuality were genetic. It completely ingores homosexuality as either a choice, or a situational release. (i.e. If you were trapped on a desert island with another person of the same sex, how long would it be before you started thinking of them as a sex object?)

Andrew Robinson guest starred on JAG tonight as an admiral. It was weird seeing him without all the makeup. As usual, he put in good performance.

Hmmm, those Obsidian Order surgeons can do excellennt work. I wonder why they want to infiltrate the US Navy? (Seriously, I saw it as well and also thought he did an excellent job.)

Keith -- That depends on the other person! ;-)

HE MOST DEFINITELY IS NOT!

Ah, proof that he is! ;) Thanks, spy!

Aha on you. It takes one to know one!

Yup. I'm gay and I say he is too! Since it takes one to know one, I guess I must be right, huh? :0)

(The preceding has been brought to you by the society for the preservation of elementary school behavior on internet message boards.)

Seriously, I am gay, and I'm glad you gave me such an easy way to finally win this little debate. It's much less taxing than trying to actually explain gaydar.

It takes one to know one! Humnnnnnn, let's consider. Maybe you can spot a terran male gay man , but can you spot a Cardassian male gay guy. I hope you take no offense, I just like to see all sides of the coin. I'm a female, and I see a Klingon female. Now I would think she wasn't hetersexual, cause she aint acting feminine enough. All that spitting, and belting, and growling. Makes you think? Don't it? But she would still go for that masculine Male Klingon warrior. Yet she is hetersexual, just like me, but I wouldn't think that. Do you see what I'm getting at? Now, I'm not argueing that Garek is not gay, or is gay. I just don't think that one's characteristics imply just one thing. Just like Captain Janeway putting her hands on her hips to just rest them, almost caused a planet to go to war.

Well, I'd say gaydar would have to work cross-species if the two species are capable of being attracted to one another. 'Straight-dar' seems to be alive and well between Trill and Klingons, Bajorans and humans, Ferengi and Cardassians, humans and Cardassians.... It would make no sense if the subliminal cues that allow straight interspecies romances would be missing for gay/lesbian/bi people of various species.

Well, since the Universal Translator can search a creature's brain for universal constants, and sexual desire would seem to be a constant, maybe the UT is the basis of 'gaydar'. ;-)

Now for an important question. Is Garak part of the Frank Conspiracy?

To Mark Stanley: You made a very good point! I never even thought of that! If one rules seems to follow for all species, than all the other rules do too!! Very good point! I always like to find the differences in different races, when it looks like there are actually simularities. I swallow my foot with salt and maple syrup!

Same answer on the universal translator KAM.

Is Garak gay?
I don't know for sure- but you must agree he's in Section 32...

WHO CARES?

I certainly do! My reputation's at stake! :-)

According to the Star Trek magazine article with Andrew Robinson, he said that Garak's sexual identity is still up in the air.

Along with his ass?

Oh, really now, if you're going to make a terrible (and *easy*) joke like that, at least stand up and be proud about it! Use your own name! :0)

Section 32, you say? Or perhaps section 47!

I always saw the relationship between Bashir and Garak as kind of beloved teacher/student or older brother/younger brother.

Brothers? That's an interpretation I've never heard before. Care to expand on what you mean? I don't think I really know; I tend to think of fraternal relationships as decidedly less formal and more equal than Garak's with Bashir.

The mentor/pupil idea is familiar to me, though, and is in fact celebrated by most people who write Garak/Bashir fanfic, myself included. After all, a mentoring relationship which includes mentoring in the ways of love is an ideal straight out of Plato's Symposium. No young man of class should be without an older, experienced, and educated lover!

It's obvious what the creators wanted us to think.
If they wanted us to think he was heterosexual, they'd have called him Straightrak as opposed to Gayrak q)-p

Starfleet? Why would the military manufacture homosexuals?

Ever hear of the US military? Or the Boy Scouts of America?


As for a character being gay, I don't give a ••••. If I like a show, and a certain character, I'll watch it regardless of someone's sexual preference.

As for finding a member of the same sex attractive:

-Jessica Alba, "Dark Angel," is absolutely gorgeous.

I could name other women, but the homophobes on here that like to ramble on this topic will jump me.

Sorry about the post before last. I thought the message said something about homosexuals being banned, kicked out, treated badly, etc.

As for finding a member of the same sex attractive:

-Jessica Alba, "Dark Angel," is absolutely gorgeous.

Right on, JMA is the most beautiful woman on TV.

Script for "Past Prologue" - Original Draft of Second Scene in Ops...

BASHIR: [getting off turbolift] You won't believe who just came and sat next to me in the replimat!

O'BRIEN: I bet we won't...

BASHIR: The spy! Garak, the gay Cardassian!

SISKO: We don't know for a fact that Garak's gay, doctor...

BASHIR: He is! You should have heard him. He introduced himself, and he struck up conversation just like that! He was making contact with me - with ME of all people!

DAX: What do you think he might want from YOU, Julian...?

This discussion reminds me of a thread on the Gods and Monsters message board...


Poster 1

You'll think I'm weird, but someone told me this film had a gay subtext. Do you think Whale had a bit of a thing for the gardener? I have a theory that Whale was supposed to be a homosexual. Think about it: The naked men around the garden; the male-male full kiss on the lips; the scene where Whale grabbed for the guy's crotch; the way everyone kept calling him a homo; and the way he had other guys for lovers.

I might be overreacting, but I was sure there was a bit of a gay theme going on underneath. What does everyone else think?
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Poster 2

You ••••••• queers are all the same!!! You think there's a ••••••• homo under every rock jesus!!! The caracter of jAmes whale was just a sweet old man who enjoyed another mans company. holy •••• Can't we have a discussion round here without the queers having to bring there homo agenda into it? Jesus christ it was a movie about a guy who made good movies with frankenstein monsters and you have to sully his reputastion by saying he was gay only a ••••••• queer would notice the bit where he grabbed the other guys •••• anyway. You guys who always think their's a hidden gay subtext need to get a life jesus!!!
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