• Time Travel: Practical Application Part 2 May 20 - 3:12 pm

I did my English and Advanced Physics dissertations on temporal mechanics. The English one mainly involved Clifford A. Pickover's, Stephen Hawking's, and Michio Kaku's (just picked up Visions today) research. Even elements of Eric J. Lerner's (The Big Bang Never Happened) research with the concept of a collapsed star, black holes, Einstein-Rosen bridge, etc., a plussage more of Paul Davies' and Martin Gardner's own investigations for my Advanced Physics thesis. I once--last year, in fact--attended a Stephen Hawking lecture at Cambridge, England. The Professor spoke of his alternative histories hypothesis, comparing it to Richard Feynman's quantum theory sum over histories proposal. Mr. Hawking reiterated how we're not "...overrun by tourists from the future" (206 The Illustrated A Brief History of Time), thereby confirming time-travel to be "...not possible by 'the fact that we have not been invaded by hordes of tourists from the future'" (235 Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel Universes, Time Warps, and the 10th Dimension). This was his emphasized argument on the laws of causality.

I've come to some speculative, purely philosophical conclusions on the nature of spacetime. It concentrates on matter and the assumption of the law of conversation of energy. And as matter is related to energy, so too does matter transform. I'm leaning more toward an "ex nihilo" principle. Additionally, I tend to borrow portions of Feynman's sum over histories ideology in the sense of overlapping continuums. Realities and times from afar a single existence (universe) but in actuality infinite multiple existences (multiverse) Monet-style. I'll add more to this shortly. Thoughts anyone?

It's been a heck of a long time since I read "Brief History" and "Hyperspace".

Hawking and Kaku's arguments ("No time travelers, hence no time travel") sound very similar to Fermi's paradox.

As I understand it, currently nothing in General Relativity forbids time travel -- it is theoretically possible, but practically impossible (given current technology). And processes on the quantum scale tend to to be reversible, ie. independent of the direction of time.

Remember, though that neither QM nor GR are complete theories. There is still no quantum theory of gravity. If and when a quantum gravitational theory shows up (marrying QM and GR), then we should have more info as to whether time travel is possible or not...

I'm actually preparing for another form of AIT, but it's a military term. I could've entered Combat Engineering, but I chose Infantry. Engineering is something I wouldn't mind getting into, specifically on a project with the government (Pentagon or DoD anyone?).

This is just background information. White/ambient noise, if you will, ScottN and other submitters. With that aside, you've referenced something of which I'm not familiar, ScottN. What is the Fermi's paradox?

By the way, ScottN, you're referring to the unification theory, aren't you? That is, when you were describing the quantum theory of gravity.

Fermi's Paradox essentiallly asks, "If there are advanced life forms with interstellar travel, where are they?"

Yeah, I was referring to the (presumed) ToE, but it wouldn't have to be a unified theory (gravity with the SU(3) forces), just as long as it was a consistent quantum gravitational theory.

BTW, Infantry is for suckers Artillery is where it's at. King of Battle, Dude!

Yes, I really like the episode "Timeless". It's a great show. Too bad "Endgame" ended up ripping it off with the exact same plot.

You know what? I'll move this discussion to the Timeless forum.

That's hitting below the belt there, Rene. I realized just as I was finished typing the post under Voyager: Season 5: Timeless that it was far more suitable for its own topic. However, I still wanted to express some thoughts. I notice Nitpickers often go off-topic no matter where they're posting. So if you intended for your post to be an insult to me, Rene, just take your sarcasm elsewhere. Quite frankly, it's of no concern to me.

ScottN, yes, it came to me that it's more commonly known as the unified field theory, or theory of everything. Albert Einstein described this coalescence as being unattainable now since "while the 'marble' of spacetime was clean and elegant, the 'wood' of matter-energy was a horrible jumble of confused, seemingly random forms..." (98 Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel Universes, Time Warps, and the 10th Dimension). Presently, it is still a quandary.

Fortunately, Mr. Einstein's "'...working with every effort on the wider shaping of the theory connecting gravitation and electricity...'" was "...given a further spur by the birth of quantum mechanics" (493 Einstein: The Life and Times).

ScottN, do you happen to recall that discovery/research apropos of the "tachyon" particle traveling through time on a microscopic level? Who, when, where, and how? I'm drawing a blank.

P.S. Are you in Artillery, ScottN? I was actually qualified for Ammunitions Specialist, but there's a method to my madness. If it's any consolation, my brother-in-law's in Armor and my father's retired Ordnance.

I thought that tachyons had not yet been discovered.

There's an interesting problem with charged tachyons. It takes energy to slow down a tachyon to the speed of light. If a tachyon loses energy, it speeds up. Now, any charged particle exceeding the speed of light in a given medium gives off radiation, known as "Cerenkov Radiation" (this effect has been observed in media where c is slower than in vacuo, such as water). So if a charged tachyon exists, by definition, it's exceeding the speed of light, and therefore should give off Cerenkov radiation, losing energy, and speeding, up, eventually attainging infinite speed (whatever that means) and zero energy.

Separate post, so it wouldn't get lost, D.

No, I never had the honor of serving. I worked on artillery control systems for many years. If you've ever heard of TACFIRE, Lightweight TACFIRE, or IFSAS, those would be my programs. I've spent some time at Ft. Sill at the artillery school. I have the utmost respect for our fighting men (as you could see from my posts over on PM and other places). I just thought I'd tweak your tail a bit... Of course, I picked up the attitude from all the ex-Artillery guys I used to work with!

Good luck in the Infantry!

Thank you for the vote of confidence, ScottN. And by the way, color me impressed. In the words of Nicolas Cage in Snake Eyes, "There's the man whose life I want!"

I'm not familiar with those artillery control programs, unless they involve laser-guided detection and/or launch. I acted as technician on one such program developing a network of lasers forming something of a "web" in order to pinpoint the place of origin of a sniper's shot. It remained a highly rough idea that suffered in several of the actual tests.

ScottN, do you happen to work with satellites, orbiting surveillance equipment, etc.? My ambition's to work on space-based counter-weapon defense. The same principle of having a network of lasers to detect any missile threats. In fact, focusing the lasers so that they could A) overheat the missile to the point of explosion or B) target, or "paint" as they say in the Air Force, the missile, while in the process perhaps determining the thickness of its hull and relaying instantaneously the information back to main control. Structural design's my interest, namely regarding missiles. A brilliant payload of non-nuclear missiles could easily be housed in a satellite. What are your thoughts? What's your field of expertise?

How do the great minds that you two are refering to, such as Hawking and the others, describe what time is? The 4D can't in my understanding be given any substance like those Chronoton Particles made infamous by Voyager.

By The Thinker on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 11:25 pm:
Well, you can't actually leave time. To go to a different time frame, you would have to leave yours. But doing so would cause you to cease to exist because we can only exist in space-time. It may sound weird, but We are Human "BEINGS"
So in any episode that involves time travel, no loop or changing time frames ever occurs. Time may not have to be linear, but it does have to be continuous.
What happnens is going to happen, not was going to happen because a "was" signifies a preset or predetermined course of action; which cannot take place because if someone has a way of determining if something is going to happen, they would have to have come from another time frame, which cannot be achieved because... (as stated above).
Therefore, no time loop occurs, had occured, will occur, etc. Think of time as a string of infinite length. If the string were to be tossed on a table, it would appear as a jumbled mess. You might see the string bend back the other way, or create figure eights or helical shapes, but it NEVER makes an actual loop. The string is continuous and so is Time.
(GOD was left out of this explanation since it is considered non-canon by TPTB on Star Trek.)
By The Thinker on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 11:34 pm:
I forgot to add that any continuity errors people might preceive are most likely some type a deja vu brought on by watching to much MIB.
What people might call a time loop and an error is not a loop but just the continuous string thats called life. No loop occurs and its just coincidental that forms of reality seem to be very similar to others. In fact!! The existance of these alleged continuity errors helps prove this theory and also means there is nothing wrong with the show except a oily dogs/vulcans/humans and people using the wrong terminology.

The Thinker's argument seems at first logical about existing in time, but it doesn't explain what time is, so what does Hawking and the others think time is, or ScottN and Doctor Stuart for that matter?

ScottN, if memory serves me correct (my eyes and recollection aren't at their finest these days), it was a subatomic particle, like a quark, or a corpuscle that traveled faster than light. The scientists involved in the project simply tacked on the name "tachyon." I'm still conducting research on this espial.

I feel time is not a physical matter, Temporal Investigations, but more of a concept. In fact, thank you, Sir, because you bring me to my next point in expanding the "ex nihilo" principle, or matter out of nothing.

I reread over Robert A. Heinlein's All You Zombies short story. The whole idea focuses on the motto of the Ouroboros, Omega, beginning and end: life, time, energy, etc., are circular. The Ouroboros snake eats its own tail to sustain itself, but the tail exists only because the snake exists, while the snake exists only because there is a tail to consume in order to sustain itself. And around and around we go.

SPOILER!
In All You Zombies, the main protagonists are discovered to be the past and future versions of the same individual. This individual (the younger of the two) is catapulted into the past to avenge his fate at the hands of a strange man, considering the individual was actually once a woman (he was a hermaphrodite). Instead, the individual unknowingly impregnates his past female self. This past female self gives birth to a baby girl, which is, in turn, abducted from the hospital by the older of the two individuals (remember, these people are all the same person). The older invidual leaves the baby girl at a church further into the past. The baby grows up to become that same hermaphrodite who's later impregnated by a strange man. When giving birth, the woman must be converted into a man due to medical problems. This man is catapulted into the past by his older self, who's come back to recruit himself into a time-travel organization, as he was years before.

If you're still following me and you draw a "...family tree, we find that all the branches are curled inward back on themselves, as in a circle...that she is her own mother and father...an entire family tree unto herself" (237 Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel Universes, Time Warps, and the 10th Dimension). This is an excellent example of Stephen Hawking's "...consistent histories approach..." suggesting "...that even if spacetime is warped so that it would be possible to travel into the past, what happens in spacetime must be a consistent solution of the laws of physics" (207 The Illustrated A Brief History of Time). The law of conservation of energy and matter, otherwise known as matter-energy. If A = 1 and B = A, then B must equal 1.

However, Stephen Hawking made a Freudian slip in that he believes in the consistent histories conjecture (time loop). If you believe in this theory of time-travel, then Robert A. Heinlein's scenario would be hugely plausible. But--and now I ultimately get to my point concerning the "ex nihilo" principle--this would mean that it is also possible for matter to be created out of nothing.

Take the hero of All You Zombies, for instance. He/she only exists because he/she gave himself/herself the ability to manipulate time and thereby the opportunity to impregnate himself/herself with himself/herself. But think about this for a moment: where did the protagonist come from originally? Ouroboros, Nitpickers. Ouroboros.

Now, since I have just used a Hawking theorem as proof to a hypothesis of my own, let's trace it back to the beginning. If A = 1 and B = A, then B must equal 1, right? Think about this long and hard. If matter can be created out of nothing, which is already implied by Mr. Hawking, then A and B can in fact equal ANYTHING! The theory, in essence, unravels itself. What if this could be applied to time? What does everyone else think?

Another thought: this all could give some validity to the evolutionary theory of abiogenesis.

I hate to post again without a response, but this is just bugging me. I have to lay this out on the table. In addition, I'm in a hurry. I'm being pressured to glean information from my Australian colleague, who's currently transferred to Oslo, Norway, for my superiors. I'm using the computer at the moment for this, but I'm also going to throw this out there to you all.

Here's something else that I've often pondered: God is supposed to see and know all, right? He's nonlinear and knows everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen. Therefore, by the transitive property of algebra, upon death and entrance into the Afterlife, wouldn't a human being also share this foresight?

Now, let's say I travel back in time and rescue that particular human, who previously died, from his demise and bring him forward through time. What will happen to that version of him that's in the Afterlife? Would it continue to exist or would it merge with its living self?

Think about this every time in a time-travel story (i.e., movie, TV program, etc.) when the protagonist prevents the death of another character or other characters. They've already expired and ascended to the Afterlife. What happens to them when their deaths are arrested? Interesting.

The older invidual leaves... = The older INDIVIDUAL leaves... Typo.

Wow, I'm surprised no one's made any comments. No responses or additions to our current course of discussion. Nothing whatsoever.

We did, but the response was lost in a time vortex and now resides somewhere/somewhen in the future.

I remember having a similar "brain explosion" back in the late '60's, when I first read David Gerrold's The Man who Folded Himself, the title character of which, due to time travel, was also his own mother and father (and the "uncle" who raised him). I never came to any definitive answers.

Be patient now, because I need to give a little background information before I fully make my contribution. In the end, what you read will crystallize my alternative hypothesis of time-travel. Some of this text might stray off-topic, and if anything else, at least the first third or quarter of this essay could make for an interesting read.

Zoroastrianism, an ancient pre-Islamic religion of Iran. The Indian version is called Parsiism. It was founded by the Iranian prophet and reformer Zoroaster (Zarathushtra) in the 6th century B. C., containing both monotheistic and dualistic features (e.g., the archetype of the dualistic view of the world and of man's destiny). Zoroaster was a priest of a certain ahura (Avestan equivalent of Sanskrit asura) with the epithet mazda, "wise," worshipping Auramazda (Ahura Mazda). Zoroastrianism was an attempt at unifying under the worship of one supreme god a polytheistic religion. The dualism it preaches is good and evil fighting an unequal battle in which the former is assured of triumph. In this struggle, man must enlist because of his capacity of free choice with his soul and body. This is Zoroastrianism's doctrine of free choice and belief in the power of destiny. In Japanese Romaji (phonetic transliteration of Kanji symbols into English), there's a phrase: unmei no chikara. It means "destiny's power." This is the foundation of Zoroastrianism.

Iran and northern India's languages are similar, suggesting common ancestors: Indo-Iranians, or Aryans. The religion thereof has common elements contained in the sacred books of Iran and India, mainly the Avesta and the Vedas. Both compendia exhibit the same kind of polytheism, with many of the same gods, notably the Indian Mitra (the Iranian Mithra), the cult of fire, sacrifice by means of a sacred liquor (soma--an excellent distracting agent used in Aldous Huxley's Brave New World--in India, in Iran haoma), and other parallels. All of these gods also are found in the Vedas, but only the first one in the Avesta, save for that Indra and Nanhaithya appear in the Avesta as demons; Varuna may have survived under another name. The neglected god Mithra in Zoroastrianism was closely associated with Varuna in India and with Varuna's likely substitute in Iran. Mithra was presumably included in the formula "Mazda and the other ahuras." Zoroaster's message emphasized the central importance of his god, the wise Ahura, by portraying him with an escort of entities, the powers of all the other gods, in an array against the forces of evil. The beings that surrounded the great god Auramazda were called amesha spentas, "bounteous immortals."

Indo-Iranians distinguished from among their gods the daiva (Indo-Iranian and Old Persian equivalent of Avestan daeva and Sanskrit deva), meaning "heavenly," and the asura, a special class with occult powers, reflected in Vedic India. Asura came to signify, in Sanskrit, a kind of demon, because of the baleful aspect of the asura's invisible power.

Vishtaspa, Zoroaster the prophet's protector, can only be the namesake of the father of Darius I, the Achaemenid king. Religion under the Achaemenids was in the hands of the Magi, a Median tribe with special customs, such as exposing the dead, fighting evil animals, and interpreting dreams. Cultic deities of the nobility Darius I, who owed his throne to the support of some noblemen, was inclined to favor, although he adopted Auramazda as a means of unifying his empire. Iranian religion gradually emerged again in Commagene in the middle of the 1st century B. C.: gods bearing combinations of Greek and Iranian names, such as Zeus Oromazdes.

The moral dualism expressed in the opposition Asha-Druj (truth-falsehood) goes back at least to Indo-Iranian times. Between these two principles, the Twin Spirits made an ominous choice, the Bounteous One becoming in thoughts, words, and deeds a partisan of Asha, ashavan, while the other became dregvant, partisan of the Druj. To the army of the ashavans, headed by the Bounteous Spirit, was counter-posed by the host of the dregvants, under the Destructive Spirit, Angra Mainyu. In this battle, the whole material universe is, through the entities, potentially enrolled, the Bounteous Spirit being the patron of man. In Zoroastrianism, the entities were reduced to mere deities, which were even separated into male and female. Never again were their names used to designate human faculties.

Zoroaster's system focused exclusively on the cult of Ahura Mazda. In Zoroaster's theology, the Bounteous Spirit was almost completely reabsorbed into Ahura Mazda. Whereas in a Yasht, the two Spirits fought each other, in the Videvdat, Ahura Mazda and the Destructive Spirit opposed each other by creating, respectively, the good and the bad things (I go more into detail on this shortly). Sprung from this thought is the conclusion that Ahura Mazda could no longer be the father of the Twin Spirits. This alteration most likely dates back to at least the 4th century B. C., for Aristotle said in the Peri philosophias ("On Philosophy") that the Magi preached the existence of two principles, Oromasdes (Ormazd) and Areimanios (Ahriman).

In the cosmogony as expounded in the Bundahishn, Ormazd (Ahura Mazda) and Ahriman are separated by the void, apparently existing from all eternity. It is Ahriman's invidious attack that initiates the whole process of creation. Their origin remained cryptic, as Ormazd had taken the place of his Bounteous Spirit in the struggle against the Destructive Spirit. However, an origin solution was provided by Zurvanism, declaring that Zurvan (Time) is the father of Ormazd and Ahriman, with the two brothers in a Cain and Abel scenario. This solution upset the very essence of Mazdaism. According to Mazdean orthodoxy, Ormazd created the material world and produced from infinite light a form (bright, white, round, and visible from afar) of fire, out of which all things were to be born. Gayomart, the primal man, was also conceived as spherical, in the image of the sky. Interpreted Zurvanite text states how Zurvan created Ormazd.

Among the various forms under which the Zurvanite quaternary manifested itself, the one associating Zurvan with light, power, and wisdom seems to be the origin of the Mazdean quaternary. Ormazd, in the Bundahishn, has three other names, namely Time, Space, and Religion. To obtain this quaternity, it was sufficient to replace Zurvan by Time, light by Space, wisdom by Religion, and power by Ormazd and to put the latter at the end of the series.

In order to vanquish Ahriman, Ormazd created the world as a battlefield. The fight would be limited in time--it would last 9,000 years--and Ormazd offered Ahriman a pact to that effect. After they had created their respective material creations, Ahriman's first attack was squelched by Ormazd with the help of the Ahuna Vairya prayer (the most sacred Zoroastrian prayer). Ahriman was then stirred up by the prostitute (primal woman) and went back to the attack, this time in the material universe. He killed the primal bull, whose marrow gave birth to the plants and whose semen collected and purified in the moon, whence it could produce the useful animals. Ahriman then killed Gayomart, the primal man, whose body produced the metals and whose semen was preserved and purified in the sun. A part of it would produce the rhubarb from which the first human couple would be born. Unfortunately, the first human couple was perverted by Ahriman, and it is only with the advent of Zoroaster, after 3,000 years, that Ahriman's supremacy came to a halt. Ormazd and Ahriman then fight on equal terms until Ormazd, at the end of the last 3,000 years, finally will triumph (again, I will get more into detail with this shortly).

There was a dragon that was slain in order to liberate the imprisoned waters and will appear again at the resurrection to be slain by another hero. In the last great struggle, the host of good and the host of evil will vie with each other, and each soldier of Ormazd will defeat and kill his own special adversary. This will restore the state of peace that had prevailed initially and Ahriman will be either powerless or annihilated.

As promised, here's more detail on the Ormazd-Ahriman feud. Author Benjamin William Bova penned an Orion saga (Orion, Vengeance of Orion, Orion in the Dying Time, Orion and the Conqueror, and Orion Among the Stars) regarding a mortal man named John O'Ryan, who was created by Ormazd and selected by Ormazd to follow the directive of destroying Ahriman. This battle spanned across time, with Orion traveling backward and Ahriman traveling forward. During his journeys, Orion found himself in the Trojan War, the Cretaceous Period, and the Alexandrian era, protecting history and combating Ahriman.

Borrowing from what I call the "Zurvan" principle, time and the material universe (existence) could in fact be separate. Orion, torn from existence and, for all practical purposes, what we know as the universe itself, is placed at different moments throughout time and reality. Likewise, in what I call the "Pleasantville static universe disruption" theory, with M and F denoting, respectively, male and female, Teenagers AM and AF replace Teenagers BM and BF. Like Orion, Teenagers AM and AF are torn from their time and reality and placed into another time and reality, one known as Pleasantville and to us merely an old TV show. Both these instances are examples of what Prof. Michio Kaku describes regarding the notion of Carl Friedrich Gauss' hypothetical two-dimensional beings, or "bookworms," and their interaction with higher-dimensional entities--in this case, with us, three-dimensional humans. Mr. Kaku elaborates on how a two-dimensional prisoner can be sprung from his circle jail as we humans can "…just reach down, grab the Flatlander, peel him off the two-dimensional world, and redeposit him elsewhere on his world" (46-47 Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel Universes, Time Warps, and the 10th Dimension).

Expanding on my "Pleasantville static universe disruption" theory, Teenagers AM and AF are transported from their realm to another realm. The one to which they've been transported is an old TV show, having both a beginning and an end. Therefore, it's a static universe. No matter what any of the entities of this time and reality did to change the outcome of their static universe, it remains fixed. But when external, higher-dimensional entities entered the Pleasantville realm, their immediate influence was disruptive to the continuity of Pleasantville's static universe.

This is just like how Zurvan (Time), evidently a separate component from the material universe, influenced existence's solid, immutable state by creating higher-dimensional beings that, in turn, created lower-dimensional realities. With the introduction of time, a repeating cycle was generated and our reality became something of a "TV show" to these higher-dimensional beings. To them, we, too, could have a beginning and end. And like how Ormazd plucked Orion from our reality, like how Teenagers AM and AF were transported, so too could we traverse beyond our universe and enter the Zurvan region. Thus, what I call the "Zurvan" principle.

I inadvertently developed an image of what time and existence could look like when placing two tubes next to one another, each layered with flowing tissue. I found that the tubes never touched, but the layers of inanimate tissue clothing each could be unraveled and thereby caused to touch. Or the tubes could form something of a Venn diagram, becoming two circles that share elements only housed within the region of overlapping. Side note: this returns to my belief of overlapping continuum. We'll call this region of overlapping the Zurvan bridge, as it represents the bridge between and connecting time and existence.

Now, returning to Pleasantville, Teenagers AM and AF catalyze changes in what was originally a static universe. This is possible since these higher-dimensional entities (HDE's) were separate from this existence. They were never part of the mainstream of the Pleasantville reality. Time and reality for Pleasantville can be altered by any actions performed by these HDE's. This is also further evidence that matter can be created out of nothing, considering the HDE's arrived in Pleasantville seemingly out of nowhere.

The question, of course, that arises from this interaction of HDE's with lower-dimensional entities (LDE's)--specifically, with the continuity of the show Pleasantville--is what happens to all the future episodes that originally didn't have the HDE's present? Would the changes affect the later airings of these episodes, or would these future episodes remain isolated and unchanged, almost like sub-realities of this lower dimension? This is similar to my inquiry as to what happens when someone previously deceased is saved in the past and its correlation with and ramifications on the existence of an Afterlife double.

In conclusion, if time is separate from existence, then time alone can be manipulated. It would involve traversing the Zurvan bridge and then returning, just like removing that two-dimensional prisoner from his jail and returning him elsewhere in his world. Existence could then be manipulated, hence the "Zurvan" principle. And the question we must face then is if one "episode" of our history is changed, what happens to all the "future episodes?" Thank you for your patience, everyone.

It's going to take me awhile to digest all of this. I'm not ignoring it, I'm just not ready to comment.

I'm not sure if I agree with the metaphysics. It's quite possible to discuss time travel without them, since GR provides a scientific basis for it.

to D. Stuart

The Vulcan Science Directorate has determined that time travel is impossible.

and

some friendly advice from some person who is not well versed in all this...

When an explanation is larger than the screen, it becomes hard to keep track of all the information.
I am interested in the topic, its just that I never heard of most of the people you referance.
maybe you could put some headlines in bold to seperate stuff.
Like Story and point being made

"Wait a minute. If you feel horrible shouldn't I feel horrible?"....

"I HATE temoral causality!" (or words to this effect)

"My advice in trying to figure out paradoxes is don't."

"Smeg."

I just finished reading some essays in "The Future of Space Time", wherein people (Hawking and Kip Thorne among them) have done the math that purports to show that even if time travel is possible, changing the timeline isn't.

Sorry, the anti-paradox work was by Igor Novikov.

I don't want to throw cold water on your arguments, but I know first hand that time travel is impossible.

Never mind him, he just depressed that try #6 of his time machine didn't work. He'll think differently at 8:43pm tonight.

Either that or I will have had or however the verbs work.

Mr. Peabody & Sherman seemed to have time travel figured out.

Not to mention Peter Pottumus & So-So.

So you can go back in time, but if you bring a gun to cap Hitler, it won't work? Can that be explained for the non-genius types?

Basically, the anti-paradox is that if it didn't happen, it didn't happen. Someone will knock your arm, or get in the way, or you'll be arrested , or...

However you can say, "Hey babe, I'm from the futue, wanna have a night cap at my place?" and score with chicks in the 1970's who figure they have never made it with a crazy person.

What about Auntie Paradox?

That's an interesting assertion. I know you've simplified, but it seems fairly easy to nitpick. What history records as having not happened was recorded without the interference of time travelers. So if I theoretically did go back in time to kill Hitler, how could all of those little things (like someone bumping my arm) happen? Does that make sense? Because originally, the arm bump couldn't have happened because I wasn't there, right?

As I understand those who assert the anti-paradox theory, since you can't change the past there is no other "original" time-line. The only time-line that ever existed is the one where your arm was bumped. You were always there attempting to affect history. And, in fact, you did affect history. But you can only prove it in the cases where you were trying to "assure" an outcome rather than change it. (For example, you go back to when your parents met to make sure that they do, and you see someone [your future son] draw a gun on your father. You rush in and bump his arm and he misses.)

I'm still not totally convinced that this is the correct theory, though, and tend to favor theories in all three main camps (time is determined; time is flexible; split/parallel timelines) at different times.

Go read The Future of Space-Time, Igor Novikov's essay in particular, for an understanding of the single-timeline theory.

Alternate Universes: It doesn't matter what the dice roll, every combination comes up. Statistical theory is upheld by having move universes where seven comes up that two. What if the dice are loaded? A different set of parallel universes is born. It makes no difference if the dice are loaded if you are in the right parallel universe.

That is why I cannot believe in parallel universes, I don't play craps against guys with loaded dice.

The Vulcan Science Directory has found Time travel to be impossible and that is good enough for me.

"C" is for speed of light. That is good enough for me!

Muons can travel fast, but not as good as photons. Neutinos sometimes go fast, but no can eat that, so...

"c" is for speed of light. Thats good enough for me.

Everybody sing!

The scientific term for that is the "Many-Worlds Theory". It was first expounded by Hugh Everett. Essentially, it tries to work around the apparent randomness of QM by stating that when the wave function collapses, ALL possible outcomes occur, and the universe splits so that each one occurs in a different universe.

ScottN,

I take great comfort knowing somewhere is a me sipping a mai tai in the Bahamas wondering if the poor people are as decently tanned and toned as my 100 female staff members.

And of course, in the entire multiverse, there's only one Jack Crusher.

Of course Blue that means that somewhere in the multiverse there is a female version of you. just a thought.

Of course does that mean that somewhere in the multiverse all of our tv and movies are real? That could be interesting. And to have a rather perverted thought what would you call it if you and your opposite gender self made out? Or even worse how would the birth certif/family tree look if there was a kid?

I can handle a female version of me, assuming she's likes XENA: Warrior Princess and the WNBA.

ScottN, I meant to post this earlier, having read it a few days ago, but I didn't get the chance. This article embodies my career ambition: to place this device in a geosynchronous orbit to defend the USA from foreign missiles.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/10/29/laser.cannon.ap/index.html If the link doesn't work or the website ceases to exist, here's a long-quoted summary of the article.

"A recent Israeli delegation successfully lobbied Congress to approve the new funding package for the joint U.S.-Israeli Nautilus laser weapon project, said Israeli lawmaker Yuval Steinitz, who was part of the delegation.

Israel wants the Nautilus to help protect its northern border towns from Katyusha rockets, fired by the Lebanese guerrilla group Hezbollah during Israel's 18-year occupation of southern Lebanon that ended in 2000. Israel claims that Hezbollah now has 11,000 rockets aimed at Israel.

Congress approved $57 million to fund the project, and Israel will also contribute funding, Steinitz said, but could not say how much.

There is, however, no public record of congressional approval for Nautilus funding. It may fall under the classified portion of the 2004 Defense Authorization bill, passed by Congress and signed by U.S. President George W. Bush on September 30.

The laser beam system was successfully tested at the U.S. White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico, in February 1996. However, since then, development of the project had been held up by skeptics in the U.S. Congress, said an Israeli security official.

New funding is now needed to transform the technology into a practical weapon, said Steinitz, who is the chairman of the parliamentary foreign affairs and defense committee. 'Now we have to make it an efficient, compact weapon that can be used in the battlefield and in the war on terrorism,' Steinitz said.

The Nautilus uses a high power radar to track and lock onto the incoming projectile. Then a Mid-Infrared Advanced Chemical Laser (MIRACL), which looks like a large spotlight, shoots out an intense beam that destroys the rocket.

The White Sands test marked the first time that a rocket has been destroyed in flight by a laser beam. The laser has also proved its ability to shoot down artillery shells.
Israeli security officials said that the potential to use this technology in the war against terrorism was a major factor in convincing Congress to renew support for the project."

D. Stuart,

Interesting article but wrong place.

Side note: I am currently working on missile defense.

And I can use the super secret lasers satellites to create the plasma field for my time machine. Mwuhuhahaha.

Going along with topic drift side note: Would mortars and rockets used by Hizzbollah be distinguishable from birds from orbit?

Assuming that they could be imaged, yes. The velocity of a rocket is much larger than that of a bird, and as for mortars, birds don't follow a ballistic trajectory (unless they are an EX-PARROT).

The problem is having the assets to look down.

Re:The Norweigan Blue's Decline
It's hard to get Norwegian Blues, now I'm afraid, as people kept "shooting" 20,000 volts through them, in order to revive them.
The breed in general, had a very fine blue plumage, but was prone to narcolepsy/fugue states, due to(early)attempts, at getting the plumage, the right shade of blue. The cause of this, was due to a recessive gene.
If untreated, the bird would recover, with little or no side effects.
However, panicky owners, tried to revive them, thinking they had suffered a "Heart Attack", used "jury-rigged" defribulators, (generally domestic electrical flex/cable, attached to a standard plug)in order to "save" their pets.
The result of this "misguided" attempt to save said bird, unfortunately, often resulted in the bird's death due to electrically induces cardiac arrest. (In Extreme cases, the bird caught fire, & died of burns)
Yours,Concerned Parrot "Fancier"

One could use time travel to the time when the Fjords were a tropical paradise and The Norwegian Blue was plentiful.

I'm enthused by the brisant throes of fairly recent advancements on the egg timer in that time-travel. It goes back to my fascination with introducing a concentrated laser (or network thereof) into outer space. Perhaps I wasn't as off-topic as was previously concluded. On a larger scale, creating a closed-loop system of rotating lasers to remain in a geosynchronous orbit would simulate the effects of what's already been developed on Earth.

UConn physicist Dr. Ronald L. Mallett composed a paper in May 2000 in Physics Letters A, vol. 269, p. 214 entitled "Weak gravitational field of the electromagnetic radiation in a ring laser." Something that is otherwise known as frame-dragging.

Dr. Mallett "...has plans to build a machine to transport a subatomic particle through time...based on the ideas introduced in Einstein's theory of gravity, and he hopes to use rotating lasers to warp the space around a particle such as a neutron so that a second neutron from the future would appear" ("Professor's time travel idea fires up the imagination" http://www.gyre.org/news/explore/Time+Travel, par. 1-2, 4/5/02)

Although I don't have my hands on an original copy of the Physics Letters A, vol. 269, p. 214 paper, I'd recommend going to the website http://www.spacedaily.com/news/timetravel-01a.html to further familiarize yourself with this latest breakthrough.

Researching Dr. Mallett's advances, it inspired me to include a couple of atypical, different theories of time-travel. Here they are, in no particular order.

Retrocognition (along the lines of--to borrow a psychological term--redintegration) is a term used to describe the events or ability of someone experiencing or literally seeing into a past scene via a vision or hallucination, oftentimes involving the viewer's surroundings inexplicably changing or molding into those of a past time period. This scene may have happened recently, or many centuries in the past. Sight and sound may be involved either separately or together. Being able to view or even interact with the past implies that the past is still in existence and accessible. Similar to this concept is the idea of premonitions, an extraordinary glimpse of the future suggesting that the future is already in existence and accessible.

Expanding on this theme of the past and future constantly being accessible to a present core, I refer to the "temporal frequency/shock wave" theory. I don't know any other terms used to describe this theory, but it would entail holographic projections (i.e., visual transmission from the future) and mental manifestations (i.e., audio transmission from the future) into the past. Perhaps the conscience or "hearing voices" is actually an attempt from the future to send a message into the past.

LOL, I can't get over how underrated this topic is to most people. For me, I regard time-travel as the definitively fascinating theoretical vehicle of entering what is essentially a previous universe. Most books and movies really don't do time-travel justice. I won't name names...*Cough* Star Trek *Cough*...but I'm just surprised. Hopefully, fellow Nitpickers shall notice the most recent post's date under Kitchen Sink and let curiosity helm their impulse for exploration. Happy New Year!

By the way, ScottN, there's an article in the May issue of Discover with Sir Roger Penrose discussing the many-worlds approach to the molecular world's quantum mechanics vs. his own gravity-influenced Penrose interpretation. He discusses how gravity explains for the unconventional physics of the microcosm and its quantum mechanics so that they understandably translate into a fixed reality when entering the macrocosm, courtesy of gravity.

In other news, remind me to post about another article I came across in Popular Mechanics regarding a proposed form of missile defense involving a communications satellite and companion payload of tungsten rockets orbiting the Earth.

ScottN, in the June 2004 issue of Popular Mechanics magazine there is an article by Eric Adams regarding the future weaponry of the U.S. military. One proposal in particular struck my fancy. I present this portion of the article as a long quote.

"Space-launched darts that strike like meteors. This technology is very far out--in miles and years. A pair of satellites orbiting several hundred miles above the earth would serve as a weapons system. One functions as the targeting and communications platform while the other carries numerous tungsten rods--up to 20 feet in length and a foot in diameter--that it can drop on targets with less than 15 minutes' notice. When instructed from the ground, the targeting satellite commands its partner to drop one of its darts. The guided rods enter the atmosphere, protected by a thermal coating, traveling at 36,000 feet per second--comparable to the speed of a meteor. The result: complete devastation of a target, even if it's buried deep underground. (The two-platform configuration permits the weapon to be 'reloaded' by just launching a new set of rods, rather than replacing the entire system.)

The concept of kinetic-energy weapons has been around ever since the RAND Corporation proposed placing rods on the tips of ICBMs [Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles] in the 1950s; the satellite twist was popularized by sci-fi writer Jerry Pournelle. Though the Pentagon won't say how far along the research is, or even confirm that any efforts are underway, the concept persists. The 'U.S. Air Force Transformation Flight Plan,' published by the Air Force in November 2003, references 'hypervelocity rod bundles' in its outline of future space-based weapons, and in 2002, another report from RAND, 'Space Weapons, Earth Wars,' dedicated entire sections to the technology's usefulness.

If so-called 'Rods from God'--an informal nickname of untraceable origin--ever do materialize, it won't be for at least 15 years. Launching heavy tungsten rods into space will require substantially cheaper rocket technology than we have today. But there are numerous other obstacles to making such a system work. Pike, of GlobalSecurity.org, argues that the rods' speed would be so high that they would vaporize on impact, before the rods could penetrate the surface. Furthermore, the 'absentee ratio'--the fact that orbiting satellites circle the earth every 100 minutes and so at any given time might be far from the desired target--would be prohibitive. A better solution, Pike argues, is to pursue the original concept: Place the rods atop intercontinental ballistic missiles, which would slow down enough during the downward part of their trajectory to avoid vaporizing on impact. ICBMs would also be less expensive and, since they're stationed on Earth, would take less time to reach their targets. 'The space-basing people seem to understand the downside of space weapons,' Pike says--among them, high costs and the difficulty of maintaining weapon platforms in orbit. 'But I'll still bet you there's a lot of classified work on this going on right now.'"

Black Holes:
When stars that are more than four times the mass of our sun reach the end of their life and have burned up all of their fuel, they collapse under the pressure of their own weight. This implosion creates "black holes," which have gravitational fields so strong that even light cannot escape. Anything that comes in contact with a black hole's event horizon will be sucked in. The event horizon is the boundary of a black hole at which nothing can escape.
You can think of the shape of a black hole as similar to an ice cream cone. It is large on top and tapers into a point, called a singularity. At the singularity, the laws of physics cease to exist and all matter is crushed beyond recognition. This kind of non-rotating black hole is called a Schwarzschild black hole, named after the German astronomer Karl Schwarzschild.
Another type of black hole, called a Kerr hole, is also theoretically possible. Kerr holes are rotating black holes that could be used as portals for time travel or travel to parallel universes. In 1963, New Zealand mathematician Roy Kerr proposed the first realistic theory for a rotating black hole. In his theory, dying stars would collapse into a rotating ring of neutrons that would produce sufficient centrifugal force to prevent the formation of a singularity. Since the black hole would not have a singularity, Kerr believed it would be safe to enter it without being crushed by the infinite gravitational force at its center.
If Kerr holes do exist, it might be possible to pass through them and exit out of a "white" hole. A white hole would have the reverse action of a black hole. So, instead of pulling everything into its gravitational force, it would use some sort of exotic matter with negative energy to push everything out and away from it. These white holes would be our way to enter other times or other worlds.
Given the little we know about black holes, Kerr holes may possibly exist. However, physicist Kip Thorne of the California Institute of Technology believes that the laws of physics prevent such a formation. He says there is no such way to enter and exit a black hole, and that anything attempting to enter a black hole will be sucked in and destroyed before it even reaches the singularity.

Wormholes:
Thorne believes there could be another type of tunnel-like structure existing in the universe that could be used for a time travel portal. Wormholes, also called Einstein-Rosen Bridges, are considered to have the most potential for time travel if they do exist. Not only could they allow us to travel through time, they could allow us to travel many light-years from Earth in only a fraction of the amount of time that it would take us with conventional space travel methods.
Wormholes are considered possible based on Einstein's theory of relativity, which states that any mass curves spacetime. To understand this curvature, think about two people holding a bed sheet up and stretching that sheet tight. If one person were to place a baseball on the bed sheet, the weight of the baseball would roll to the middle of the sheet and cause the sheet to curve at that point. Now, if a marble were placed on the edge of the same bed sheet it would travel toward the baseball because of the curve.
In this example, space is depicted as a two-dimensional plane rather than the four dimensions that actually make up spacetime. Imagine that this sheet is folded over, leaving a space between the top and bottom. Placing the baseball on the top side will cause a curvature to form. If an equal mass were placed on the bottom part of the sheet at a point that corresponds with the location of the baseball on the top, the second mass would eventually meet with the baseball. This is similar to how wormholes might form.
In space, masses that place pressure on different parts of the universe could eventually come together to form a tunnel -- this is a wormhole. We could then travel from Earth to another galaxy and back relatively quickly (within a lifetime). For instance, let's picture a scenario in which we would want to travel to Sirius, a star that's seen in the Canis Major constellation just below Orion. Sirius is about 9 light-years from Earth, which is about 54 trillion miles (90 trillion km). Obviously, this distance would be far too great for space travelers to traverse and return in time to tell us about what they saw there. So far, the farthest people have traveled into space is to the moon, which is only about 248,548 miles (about 400,000 km) away from Earth. If we could find a wormhole that connected us to the space around Sirius, then we could cut the time considerably by avoiding the trillions of miles that we would have to cross with traditional space travel.
So how does all of this relate to time travel? As we discussed earlier, the theory of relativity states that as the velocity of an object nears the speed of light, time slows down. Scientists have discovered that even at the speeds of the space shuttle, astronauts can travel a few nanoseconds into the future. To understand this, picture two people, person A and person B. Person A stays on Earth, while person B takes off in a spacecraft. At takeoff, their watches are in perfect sync. The closer person B's spacecraft travels to the speed of light, the slower time will pass for person B (relative to person A). If person B travels for just a few hours at 50 percent the speed of light and returns to Earth, it will be obvious to both people that person A has aged much faster than person B. This difference in aging is because time passed much faster for person A than person B, who was traveling closer to the speed of light. Many years might have passed for person A, while person B experienced a time lapse of just a few hours. Find out more about this twin paradox in How Special Relativity Works.
If wormholes could be discovered, it might allow us to travel to the past as well as the future. Here's how it would work: Let's say the mouth of the wormhole is portable. Then person B in the example above, who traveled at 50 percent of light speed into space for a few hours, could carry one wormhole mouth into space, while the mouth at the opposite end of the wormhole would stay with person A on Earth. The two people would continue to see one another as person B traveled into space. When person B returned to Earth a few hours later, a few years may have passed for person A. Now, when person A looks through the wormhole that traveled into space, that person will see him or herself at a younger age, the age he or she was when person B launched into space. The cool thing about it is that the older person A would be able to step into the past by entering the wormhole, while the younger person B could step into the future.

Cosmic Strings:
Yet another theory for how we might travel back and forth through time uses the idea of cosmic strings, proposed by Princeton physicist J. Richard Gott in 1991. These are -- as their name suggests -- string-like objects that some scientists believe were formed in the early universe. These strings may line the entire length of the universe and are under immense pressure -- millions upon millions of tons.
These cosmic strings, which are thinner than an atom, would generate an enormous amount of gravitational pull on any objects that pass near them. Objects attached to a cosmic string could travel at incredible speeds, and because their gravitational force distorts spacetime, they could be used for time travel. By pulling two cosmic strings close together, or one string close to a black hole, it might be possible to warp spacetime enough to create closed time-like curves.
A spacecraft could be turned into a time machine by using the gravity produced by the two cosmic strings, or the string and black hole, to propel itself into the past. To do this, it would loop around the cosmic strings. However, there is still much speculation as to whether these strings exist, and if they do, in what form. Gott himself said that in order to travel back in time even one year, it would take a loop of string that contained half the mass-energy of an entire galaxy. And, as with any time machine, you couldn't go back farther than the point at which the time machine was created.

Problems with Time Travel:
If we are ever able to develop a workable theory for time travel, we would open up the ability to create very complicated problems called paradoxes. A paradox is defined as something that contradicts itself. Here are two common examples:
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you could travel back to a time before you were born. The mere fact that you could exist in a time before you were born creates a paradox. If you were born in 1960, how could you exist in 1955?
Possibly the most famous paradox is the grandfather paradox. What would happen if a time traveler went back and killed one of his or her ancestors before the traveler was born? If the person killed his or her grandfather, then how could that person be alive to go back and kill his or her grandfather? If we could change the past, it would create an infinite number of paradoxes.
Another theory regarding time travel brings up the idea of parallel universes, or alternative histories. Let's say that you do travel back to meet your grandfather when he was a boy. In the theory of parallel universes, you may have traveled to another universe, one that is similar to ours, but has a different succession of events. For instance, if you were to travel back in time and kill one of your ancestors, you've only killed that person in one universe, which is no longer the universe that you exist in. And if you then try to travel back to your own time, you may end up in another parallel universe and never be able to get back to the universe you started in.
The idea here is that every action causes the creation of a new universe, and that there are an infinite number of universes that exist. When you killed your ancestor, you created a new universe, a universe that was identical to your own up until the time you changed the original succession of events.
Confused yet? Welcome to the world of time travel. Just imagine how complicated the ticket prices will be.

The above article comes from the web site science.howstuffworks.com/ time-travel3.htm.

Then just summarize and link to it.

Kip Thorne has proposed that there *is* no grandfather paradox. I think I've discussed it here, or in the Nightstand.

Sorry, not Kip Thorne, the anti-paradox work was by Igor Novikov.