The whole O'Reilly sexual harrassment scandal has again raised some troubling questions. When I first saw Andrea Markris on the news, I was inclined to believe her. She was dressed so prim and proper. A couple of days later, Dateline NBC ran footage of The Factor newsroom(from 2003). It showed Markris dressed in a Burberry belly shirt and tight pants while at work in the newsroom. I'm no prude, but isn't this entirely inappropriate attire for a newsroom, or any workplace (with apologies to streetwalkers)? For that matter, since I'm the same age, I think that is inappropriate dress for a woman in her thirties. Clearly, no one deserves to be sexually harrassed, but I couldn't imagine ever dressing like that for work.

As for her having to listen to three vulgar phonecalls, that raises some suspisions. When I recieved some obscene phone calls, I hung up immediately. Not for one second would I ever listen to such garbage.

...and does anyone think she was "damaged" to the tune of 60 million dollars. Guess she needs some more Burberry belly shirts. They're expensive!

Some things that I think would help with regards to sexual harrasment;

1: If a woman says stop, stop! It's not that diffcult a concept.
2: Women, start saying No if you're offended. Don't pretend to laugh then quietly file away and sue.
3: Don't try to drag women whose sense of humour happens to be as sick as min-uh, as the guy you're suing into it, they won't follow you.
4: Both sexes, learn the difference between genuine harassment and harmless flirting.

I'm not full awake yet, so if none of this makes any sense, cut me some slack.

Just watch how the liberal media will support that lier making false claims against a conservative journalist. Unlike how the liberal media didn't support Paula Jones when she made claims against a Democratic President.
Watch the double standard, again.

Take it to PM. Now.

First, I HATE O'Reilly. He is an smug, arrogant, pompus, word I can't say here. However, like everyone in these situations, no matter WHAT their political affiliations are, I will avoid coming to a conclusion until the evidence comes out. That is all we CAN do. In all, I'm very glad these things are decided in a real court and not by yahoos like us.

Her complaint (on thesmokinggun.com) says that at dinner, O'Reilly's "eyes became glazed and bizarrely strayed in opposite directions." I wish she had film of that.

As for questions on another case, I found many of the televised comments on the Debra LaFave case (of the teacher charged with having sex with a fourteen year old student) to be troubling. Particularly from some defense attorneys. Many of them are trying to say it's really no crime when an older woman has sex with a 14 year old. Some attorneys have suggested that is some kind of ultimate fantasy for a male teen to have sex with the "hottest" teacher in school. Are these attorneys so wrapped up with a mindset of protecting criminals that they are blind to the harm of pedophilia?

See the Mary Kay LeTorneau case as well.

Richard Roeper did a great artical on Mary Kay LeTorneau and the media's treatment of her. He espically singled out the Diane Sawier interview with her where she was treated like an older celeb talking about an affair with a younger man, not like a dangerous sexual predator. In fact if you tuned into the middle of the interview and didn't know who Ms LeTorneau was you would have thought it was some Demi Moore like star talking about her relationship with Ashton Kucher. You know that she'd never have asked a male teacher who had sex with a 14 year old female student "so have you two had sex now that you have been out of jail (snicker, snicker)" and "what was it like the first time you two had sex?"

While it is true that having sex with a "hot" teacher is the fantasy of male students it is just as much a fantasy of female students. An average guy seems studlier if he's an authority figure (teacher, boss, general tough guy) but that doesn't make it right for him to sleep with some 15 year old, just because she fantasizes about him. And in all of these cases of male teachers and female students it's not always the male teacher who's the initeator. I know a friend of a friend who quit teaching for just that reason. He was a young good looking guy just out of college (about 23 years old) teaching in High School. After a year he quit because as he put it "those girls were all over me. I'd eventually f**k up and do something wrong and be branded a sex offender for the rest of my life."

Fitzie: On the other hand, there's the genetic aspect. Bill Mahr is, to date, the only person I've seen go "there" on TV. The way he sees, and I hate to say but I agree with him, is that a sexual relationship between say a 40 year old woman and a 17 year 0old boy is perfectly antural becuase that's when the repsective genders start to hit their sexual peak. I love the joke he put at the end of that rant.

"Doesn't it figure? A woman finds a guy who can keep it up all night and she has to drop him off at school the enxt morning."

I just disagree with it because I don't buy into the nothion that young women play at sex to get love. The truth is that women are just as purely sexual as men (if not more so) society just looks down upon it so much that they have to hide it. Or as my buddy Neil (who holds a degree in psycology with a minor in the psycology os sexual deviance and has had sex with more women than I will probably kiss in my lifetime) "all girls are ho's some just hide it better than others".

Some women are good girls. Today, most don't even need a man to be satisfied. That's what vibrators are for!

I'm ashamed that I remember this but there was an Ally McBeal episode that tocuhed on the subject, and it basically seemed to say the same thing I said. Hypocritical? Ya sure you betcha. But, sometimes so is Life.

With the record settlement against the Church (in California) for child molestation in the news, the issue of a double standard comes to mind. When an older female has sex with an underage male, many think no harm is done to the child. But when the child is victimised by a male (Priest), there are calls for lengthy sentences and fines. Aside from the issue of lawyers being involved (that explains the huge financial settlements), in these cases, it is acknowledged that males are harmed by this abuse.

Given that female reach sexual maturity earlier than males do I'd argue that any activity that would not cause harm to a male also would not cause harm to a female either and she probably hit that age earlier.

BTW I've never been much for double standards of any kind since they tend to contradict eachother. One one hand people tell me that females mature at a younger age than males, and that's why high school girls date college guys while the reverse rarely happens. But on the other hand when girlfriends (and other females) are being irrational they often use the excuse "but I'm a girl" as if that's an excuse, and if it is an excuse it's one that pretty much contradicts the more mature women one.

O'Reilly's latest "outrage" is that Canada has lowered its age of consent to 14 (in the Netherlands it's 12). Whatever the age, under 18 a person just isn't emotionally and intellectually mature. If high school kids want to date each other, fine, but middle age men pursuing yound girls really is predatory.

On another note, O'Reilly (last night)has tried to link liberalism and homosexuality with an increase in members of NAMBLA (or the "Free Spirits" organization) in Canada. This really is a new low in his bashing of liberals and Canada.

O'Reily can lecture us about sexual perversion when he takes the vibrator (he anemd it Geraldo) out of his ass.

Your arguments would be stronger if you'd be careful of your spelling. Thank you.

(I just went to www.dictionary.com to correct a misspelling. )

I do agree with the stuff about hypocrisy.

There's something else, not entirely relevant to the cases you mentioned here--

I wonder how often the trouble is caused by people saying "that's okay" to mean the same as "that's not okay"; or "that's all right" to mean the same as "no, that's all right", which means the same as "that's okay," or "no, that's okay"...

And then they blame the other person for being confused.

It's stu - pid how those phrases get misused. Yes, of course there's plenty of blame on both sides.

I know this has been brought up on another board but I felt like bringing it up here.

About obscene phone calls--I agree, she should have hung up immediately.

But I heard of a case where the woman pretended to be hard of hearing and made the guy keep screaming louder and louder..."Sorry, I can't hear you, did you say the truck to the store? What? What?" The guy kept screaming until she heard somebody in the background say, "Hang up the phone!" And the caller hung up immediately.

That oughta learn 'im.

Moderator? I think Sam's December 15th post should be deleted.

We really can't say much about O'Reilly's case, since he silenced it by paying out 10 million dollars. Since then, he's been busy attacking others' sex lives though. He's back to his old hypocritical self.

Recently, there's been a different kind of sexual harrassment case in the news. A woman, who was fired, is suing The Gorilla Foundation (which trained KoKo the gorilla to use over 1,000 words in sign language). One of her complaints is that she was pressured to indulge Koko's "Nipple fetish". Koko would also sign for her to lift up her blouse and expose her breasts. These surely make for a hostile work environment. If she wants conservative support, she should stress that she was pressured to engage in lesbian bestiality. This would surely fire up support among the Religious Right.

If she wants conservative support, she should stress that she was pressured to engage in lesbian bestiality. This would surely fire up support among the Religious Right.

Meanwhile, Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy would be really turned on and hope there was a tape of it they could watch.

Uh...why would Koko want to see that? strange...

Perhaps, Koko doesn't like bananas. Pie tastes better.

I forgot how the subject came up years ago, but I remember a woman at work telling me it is only harassment if the guy is ugly.

(I assume the gorilla was ugly)

When an older female has sex with an underage male, many think no harm is done to the child...
See the case of teacher Debra LaFave, who got a slap on the wrist sentence as a result of copping a plea for having sex with a 14 year old male student. She will serve no jail time, and has to register as a sex offender. Her husband has (understandably) divorced her, she had to give up teaching, and must abide by a court imposed curfew. She probably would have gotten away with it, if her victim's cousin (who drove LaFave and her victim around while the two of them had sex in a car) hadn't gone to the police. More on Ms. LaFave here. As far as if any harm was done to the boy, we'll just have to wait and see. (Is it true that the kid was bragging in school about "doing it with the hot teacher?")

Indeed. We saw something similar in the Mary Kay LeTourneau case.

Can anyone imagine a male teacher who sexually abused a female student later being allowed to have contact with and marry said student? And have it be a huge media event?

In the LaFave case, reverse the genders of the teacher and the student. Is there a difference in how this case is prosecuted?

When I was in high school I would have been happy to have a hot older lady teacher harass me. I certainly would have paid attention in that class.

Here in Leeds, AL a female teacher just this past week pleaded guilty to sex with a 15 yr. old student and got a year in jail with four years on probation.

Does the following situation sound like harassment to anyone on here?

A male first year graduate student works at an on-campus restaurant that also has a convenience store in the same room. A very very attractive freshman girl (who is 19)works in the adjoining store, so occasionally the guy makes her food and stuff. He finally gets up the nerve to ask her out but she has a boyfriend and apologizes. The next day she shows up while off-duty wearing a very nice dress so the guy compliments her. In the days leading up to the date request he looked up her college e-mail address on the front of the webpage, which anyone on the planet could do, and sends her a short message saying hello. Additionally, her e-mail address is listed on her Facebook page, so anyone at the school can see if that way as well.

Three days after the date request, the guy is told that she has filed a harassment complaint (with the food service people, not campus police) and wants him to stay away from her as much as possible while they are working together if he wants to keep working there.

What do you all think about that? This happened to me in September of this year.

Additionally, I am only 22 (hence the 22 on my username) and apparently the e-mail was the main thing that put the complaint in motion.

Let me see if I understand the timeline:

1. You look up her e-mail in a public place (her webpage)
2. You ask her out. No go, the Boyfriend Thing.
3. You compliment her dress.
4. You send an e-mail saying "Hello"
5. She files a sexual harassment complaint

Based entirely on that, she is overreacting. Were there other comments that you made that could be interpreted as sexually suggestive? Do you feel comfortable sharing the contents of the e-mail that got you in trouble? Are you in a position to supervise her?

I'm fairly sensitive to this issue myself as I'm in a management position supervising a lot of young people of both genders. I once told a minion her shoes looked cute but very painful (three inch heels at least) and she went and told her friends I wanted to have sex with her. So I am cautious.

I did make a comment one day that it was a "pleasure feeding her" when I brought her a sub, I guess that translates to "I want your body".

We have a supervisor other than me there, so we were basically equal (she has since left for another job, thank GOD). The e-mail basically said "hello, not sure how often you check this, just wanted to say hi". I was told by the absolute head manager that the e-mail thing bothered him a great deal and that I shouldn't have tried to find it without asking her, and the fact that I complimented her at all apparently was a bad thing as well, despite the fact that she was in the workplace off-duty wearing off duty attire.

I used the university's system at first to look up the e-mail address, I later noticed it on Facebook as well, after the incident.

This is just my opinion, but I think this was a case of "It's sexual harassment if the guy is ugly". I wouldn't say I'm ugly, but she and I are on opposite ends of the attraction scale. If one of the skinny, buff guys I worked with had done the same thing, I doubt she would have complained. I even asked a girl who goes to another school what she would do/think if a guy she worked with him e-mailed her and she said "if he was cute, I'd be thrilled!"

Sad to say I think you may have been hit by the oh he's not my type so I'll scream harassment to shut him up effect. As to me it seemed like she did kinda over react. Judging by your commetns I am guessing you are in the chubby but hugable category or somethign similar? And she is closer to the cheerleader end of things? Yeah you probably have the situation figured out pretty close.

However you did do a couple things that didn't exactly help your position. The email thing probably wasnt a great idea as you found out. And complimenting her after she had already told you she had a boyfriend. Some females have a tendency to interpret that as he is still pursuing things, especially if they ahve already been put on guard by being asked out.

Believe me I know a lot about being dumped or turned down. I got turned down 44 out of 42 times for the senior prom and some of them where from freshman girls. (44 out of 42 due to 2 girls coming up and telling me they wouldnt go with me if I paid them) Due to my being a bit geeky and overweight and poor.

Mark Morgan: I once told a minion her shoes looked cute but very painful
Luigi Novi: You pervert. Obviously, you wanted to jump her bones.

(Just kidding. )

Titanman: If one of the skinny, buff guys I worked with had done the same thing, I doubt she would have complained. I
Luigi Novi: Well, you don't really know that, Titan. Just because some other girl made such a comment doesn't mean this one is like that.

R: And complimenting her after she had already told you she had a boyfriend.
Luigi Novi: Huh? If you find out someone has a boyfriend/girlfriend, you have to say they're ugly, or something?

Ah, sad little unutilized double-quotes, how I mourn your untimely demise. Luigi, apparently the commenters couldn't decide if I was a perv or a transvesite.

It makes a lot more sense it context. Two different female supervisors had walked past me in the last hour complaining about how uncomfortable their shoes were. But hey, they looked cute, right? So I was trying to figure out why, why, why women do that. Still don't know--MJ is very much *not* a heels girls. Drat!

Titanman22 there's no way for me to know and all I can do is guess, but you probably creeped her out for whatever reason. The only way to handle such a situation with aplomb is offer an apology and never say boo to the other party again. Her not working with you any more is a bonus. Different people react to different things in all sorts of crazy ways. Sorry it happened.

Yeah sorry it happened the way it did too. But at least she isnt working with you so that more misunderstanding could occur. Sometimes people don't synch up.

Luigi , sorry about the way I phrased that. Complimenting her so closely after having been given the brush off and being informed about a boyfriend can be a dangerous thing to do as some women regard that as trying to continue the pursuit. Instead of sayign they look ugly or anythign bad just lay low and be polite, nice and noncommittal. Sorot of scope out which way she would spin and take it as an honest innocent compliment or an invitation to have sex.

Mark, My wife doesnt wear heals either and has no clue why a woman would want to put herself into somethign so dangerous, painful and potentially crippling pair of shoes. My wife's highest heals are the 1 inchers on her western boots.

I wonder what other things may have prompted the overreaction of the girl: maybe she wanted to stop things before they got out of hand, i.e. she was afraid you would turn into a stalker? I don't mean you are one, but if she already has lived through/heard of how ugly stalkers can be, maybe she overreacted just to be on the safe side, and it hit a guy who's no perv.

(In one ep. of the X-files, there's a killer stalking girls, and at one point follows a girl from their common class. Just when we think she'll be the next victim, she screams for help, and the guy is arrested. We, the viewers, know she's right and the creep's dangerous, but the woman can't know, and later tells police she overreacted and feels embarrassed, so the guy is let go - only to grab Scully.)

So it's difficult for a woman to be cautios without shocking the normal, nice guys.

Thanks for all the replies, they all have good points I think. As far as I know I'm not a stalker, but in recent times I have been told that paying unwanted attention to someone you know, completely out in the open without following them or otherwise pursuing them can be defined as stalking. My undergraduate experience had a lot of girls that claimed I was stalking them by the fact that I simply paid them more attention (greeting them, being interested in their well-being, sending cards on holidays, etc) than they happened to want. It was just talk among the girls, no actual filed complaints, but it made it impossible to date anyone until my senior year.

No problem. Like I said too bad things didnt work out. Interpersonal relationship are getting so much more complex. Say the wrong thing to the wrong person, show too much attention or even smile and people flip out. All I can say is good luck and keep trying, just be careful. Someone someday might respond positively.

I know the feeling Titan. Not being the most attractive guy I have had a LOT of rejection (Fortunately I now have a wonderful girlfriend). I am a very big complimenter of women, I often feel that men take looks very much for granted. If I feel a woman has gone out of their to pretty themselves up and look nice, I'll say it. My advice is to play to whole thing and say "Please don't take this the wrong way, but I had to say that you look great today" and simply walk away. If you know they have partners mention them in the vain of "I'd tell you you look great today but I really don't need a knuckle sandwich from your boyfriend right now". Another favourite of mine is "I hope that boyfriend of yours told you you look great today". In other words, spell it out that it is a compliment and nothing more.
E-mails and texts are definately NOT the way to go.
In this day and age it is important you spell out your intentions with women if all you want to do is pay them a compliment and nothing more. Most importantly, don't overdo it. My golden rule is never compliment the same person more than once a week- that way they'll understand it is nothing more than a friendly compliment.

Here endeth the lesson.

And now please rise for our next hymn, "Baby Got Back"...

Things have been better since the incident, my gf from undergrad and I got back together, I mainly put the scenario on here since I was still a bit confused as to why I got screwed so badly. She's hotter than h*ll, so I probably shouldn't have tried anything anyway.

Ironically, the other girl is single now, though I'm not so crazy that I'm going to try again!

Well congrats on getting back with someone who apparently appreciates you and likes you. As for trying to figure out a reason for all this, my advice is to try and forget it as females have their reasons and we males will figure them out when pigs fly.

The new revelations in the Duke rape case are stunning. It's been reported that toxocolgy tests have revealed that the stripper was given a 'date-rape' drug. This casts the behavour of the Right wing media in an ugly light. FOX pundits and right-wing radio hosts have expressed strong support for the male rapists. They've shown little sympathy for the African-American female victim. Rush Limbaugh even had a 'slip of the tongue' and called her a 'ho'. Women's Rights groups have also been attacked by right-wingers for supporting the victim. The women's groups have maintained an incredible level of dignity and respect. None of them had a 'slip of the tongue' by calling Rush Limbaugh a 'fat white Republican racist with a small thing'. If they would have said such a thing, I would have condemned them.

This case fits a historical pattern. One of the legacies of America's racist past of white male slave-owners raping black female slaves is that many white males feel subconsciously entitled to rape African-American females. Alcohol was used by the white students, so their inhibitions were let down. Naturally, they resorted to acting on their worst impulses. It has been reported that the victim has gone into hiding out of fear. Many racists want to revictimise her.

If they would have said such a thing, I would have condemned them.

So you hold others to a much higher standard than that which you hold yourself? Interesting.

Having said that, this post should have been in Political Musings. Perhaps the whole thread should have been, but until now, it has mostly been a philosophic learning experience questioning the point when what is intended as interest and friendly flirting are percieved as harrassing.

But there is a big difference between harrassment and rape. Both are reprehensible, but the are in no way the same.

P.R.: One of the legacies of America's racist past of white male slave-owners raping black female slaves is that many white males feel subconsciously entitled to rape African-American females.
Is there actually evidence to back that up?

Well that explains my desire to go out and rape African-American women!

Disclaimer: I actually have no such desire. This post is satire.

A short update on the girl that overreacted.
She's gone through two other guys since then, and I've gone to her Facebook a couple of times (I'm friends with some of her friends still, I'm not obsessing or anything) and seen photos of guys taking body shots from her navel (and she's 19), along with various other shots depicting her as a party animal.

Now, does this sound like a girl that wouldn't be able to handle a guy showing a little interest? Its not like I'm 40 or something, or I was making comments about how hot her body was.

Also, in addition to the earlier comments, the actual order was the e-mail, then the question and response about the bf, then the compliment, then the complaint. She may have gotten the e-mail AFTER that and not realized that it was dated several days earlier.

Things are way better now, I just like hearing others opinions on my problems so I can try and better understand what went wrong, and hopefully not make the same mistake twice.

This week's NEWSWEEK describes the male Duke students as feeling "macho and entitled". This is very telling. Feeling 'macho and entitled' usually leads to one result.

I've worked 22 years in the same building at work. (Altogether 25 yrs at the same company)

Anyway....two times in my building, (within a 10 year span) people have been suspended for doing the "Horizontal Mambo" at work.

The CEO's should rename the building: "Peyton Place"

The defenders of the Duke rapists say that mentioning the victim's past is proper, but they complain when the background of the rapists is mentioned. One male exposed himself and engaged in public urination out of a window. Some have sunk to the level where they find it acceptable for a male organ to rain down urine on passersby. If a woman did that, she would be unequivocally condemned as vulgar. With men, it's just "boys will be boys". Another double standard.

background of the rapists

Alleged rapists, please.

One male exposed himself and engaged in public urination out of a window

Document this claim.

One of the alleged rapists has the same name (spelled slightly differently) as the quarterback at my college...who also faced charges of assault. I found that interesting.

Many white males sexually target minority females for their sexual crimes. A good example is the white male who was arrested for exposing himself to Asian-American females on a New York subway. The man had an Asian ex-wife, so it can't be denyied that Asian women were the specific target for his "exposures". Since anti-black racial slurs were heard (and reported to the police by neighbors) at the Duke 'party', it is obvious that racism was on the minds of the Duke students.

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Quote:

Many white males sexually target minority females for their sexual crimes.

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