Why, oh why in 2005, do people still have lawnmowers you can hear four blocks down?

Asside from making you a target for killer bees why get agitated by the noise (and possibly irate humans), it makes it hard for anyone to talk, or relax in the immediate area. > Vaccuum cleaners, blenders, ectetera are just as bad.

And why must people turn their %$%$^ing stereos all the way up?! I don't like them forcing their music/crud into my ears, and I hate being kept awake with that cr@p.

I really hate the car stereos where the windows in my house start to shake just because someone drives by the house. Sorry, that's just too d@mn loud you jerks!

And for some reason, a lot of the jerks insist on having their windows open. It makes me wonder if they spent so much on the stereo they have no money left for air conditioning. Or do they want to inflict their garbage on people? Are they that desperate for attention?

My thoery is that it is too loud even for them, but rather than turning it down, heaven forfend, they wind down the windows. That's ok- when they're 40 and stone, stinkin' deaf then they might understand what a volume control is...

Last year we had a person move in a couple houses down the street and every night he would come home from work at 10:30ish and within five minutes his stereo was blasting away. What's worse, it appears the man had only a handful of cds and he would play them every night for at least two hours. HEADPHONES!!!! God invented them for a reason!!!! (ok ok ok, for all you athiests and non-christians: "HEADPHONES!!! Some Japanese guy invented them for a reason!!!")

What gets me more than anything is how they just don't seem to care about the people around them. We approached the man one morning and asked him, very politely I promise, to turn it down as most of us were in bed by then. His response was to tell us to f-off and stick earplugs in if it bothered us. Police were called that night. Music stopped the following night. He moved out couple months later.

Oh yes, I know that. The guy who lives below me has only two CDs and one of them is from ABBA. Go figure. He was persuaded by the housing company to stop it after some complaints.

Ok coming from someone who has a system in his car I can't really explain why I like having the thump. One thing though about being 32 is I am responsible enough to turn it down in areas where it would be innappropriate (housing areas, school zones or other quiet time places) and I didn't go all out with things. I only have a pair of 8"s and a pair of 6*9s with a single bridged 200watt amp in the back. And generally I have only turned the volume up past 1/2 on my radio twice once to see just how loud it would get when I installed it and once when I showed it to the club.


As for having the windows down some of it is to relieve the air pressure in the car. One of my friends in the car club blew the windows out of his eclipse because he had so much power going through his system (6 12" subs with 2 400watt amps, 4 6*9s and a partridge in a pear tree)

As for housing and such I live way out in the country so have very little dealings with that Although one of my neighbors does occasionally have a party where we can hear his music and he lives a quarter mile away. Its usually pretty good music so I ignore it.

Not to disagree with you since it's only a matter of opinion, but: I don't really care if it's good music (and most of what I hear from car stereos isn't). If I don't want to hear it, it's noise. And If I wanted to hear it, I would turn on my own stereo.

To each their own. Personally most of it just washes over me and i ignore it. And as for music I listen to whatever doesnt suk so you could have just about anythign from bluegrass to metal to classical coming throuh my system. (You ought to hear flight of the valkyrie on a system. Very stirring.)

That's ok- when they're 40 and stone, stinkin' deaf then they might understand what a volume control is...

No, when they start going deaf, they just crank it up some more. Lousy punks!

I feel if I can hear your car radio obviously you can't hear an ambulance siren and you should be ticketed for some sort of moving violation.

Berry I wouldn't know about that. I have been tooling along with the radio on and the windows up and have still heard the siren on an ambulance.

Of course keeping your eyes out of the cockpit on a perimeter sweep at all times is an important part of driving.

And I have to disagree with you on the moving violation thing. The police have too much to do already that is more important than tracking down and annoying people who are otherwise obeying the law who just want to individualise their cars.

At a local shopping mall last summer the cops started cracking down and issuing fix it tickets on every little, minor, whiney infraction of the vehicle code. Tint too dark, no front plate, car too low, car too high, stereo too loud, other lighting. This went on each weekend with about 1/2 the local department in the mall parking lot driving the teens away. The mall went the the chamber of commerce and complained about it as the teens and many of the other drivers who where caught in the police dragnet stopped coming to that mall and went a few miles up the road to another mall that welcomed tuners and held a car show each weekend. The police where basically told to chill out and unless somebody actually broke the law (Speeding, reckless op etc...) to back off. That is a very good thing as those cops who had been out harrassing otherwise law abiding people where now out on patrol. Available to respond to more important issues.

R,

...And I have to disagree with you on the moving violation thing. The police have too much to do already that is more important...

Like writing speeding tickets for going over 65 mph on highways desingned for 75 mph and 1950 susprensions. Like busting NBA players paying strippers for sex instead of actually communicating about the would be WTC bombers. Like busting a kid for having a joint while an old man gets beaten up around the block. (Sadly I'm not making any of this up.)

I disagree with you R. If I'm not in your car and I hear the siren 1 second later how the hell can you hear the siren before me.

Don't try to confuse the issue with minutae like tinting windows a shade too much, etc. This is about sound, not whether you visually scan the area of your car. I can't count the number of times an ambulance or fire truck has turned a corner and is right behind me. If I could not hear the siren and know to recheck my rearview mirror I could go 10 seconds or so until I noticed. Yes, 10 seconds is a long time if you are trapped in a burning building or having a stroke.

It is not nit picky like having your tail lights a non-aproved shade of red or something.

Oh, and that suddenly behind you thing is not even counting the state trooper who seconds before was trying to hide so he could catch me speeding but now must stop a home invasion.

Actually what is kinda scary is the sound insulation on a lot of new cars makes it hard to hear a siren even without a system being in the car.

I work with new cars all day and have had times when I would be in a new car on the road with a fire truck or somethign goign by and not had the radio up beyond a slight level and not head it until it was already within visual range. Not all models are that way but some of the chrysler 300s are like that. Part of the total driver comfort package.

And I wasn't trying to confuse the issue I see them related. Harrassing a person about their radio is done by officers mainly for anti-tuner bias. And all the rest of those issues are part of the anti-tuner bias.

And after haivng driven in downtown cincinnati with the way a siren echos off the buildings and everything in the canyons how could you figure out where the ambulance is anyhow? I mean cincy has these lights on the stoplight that tell you if an emergency vehicle is approaching the intersection otherwise there is no way a person could figure it out.

Also visually scanning the area around your vehicle for threats and issues that will affect your travel path is a prudent thing for all drivers to do, whether you have a system or not.

One other thing I live and drive mainly in the country and don't come into the city unless I have to and even then its usually only into the burbs. So there are no corners for an ambulance to sudenly be hiding behind. Most of the time on the roads I drive a person can see the lights on the vehicle well before the sound of the siren reaches them.

Berry sayeth:If I'm not in your car and I hear the siren 1 second later how the hell can you hear the siren before me.
The only way you could not hear the siren at about the same time as me is if you where several blocks away. Most sirens operate in the 80-90+ decibel range, also a lot of departments around here have switched over to the european 2 tone warble instead of the american warble. This was done because it penetrates more noisy environments and is not a natural rythmic sound that blends in.

So a loud stereo doesn't impair a driver's ability to hear a siren? I wouldn't know firsthand, but that doesn't sound right to me. From what I can see, people have enough problem getting out of the way of ambulances as it is. If they heard it a few seconds quicker, it could make a big difference in the ambulance getting where it's going.

I don't know about other people but I usually see the ambulance before I can hear the siren well enough to understand where it comes from. In the canyons of a city I can't determine where the siren is coming from off of all the echos until I make visual contact with it. On a highway or open road visual contact is generally made before or at the same time as audio contact.

And to back this up a personal quote from tonight. I was leaving Milford on rte 50 and had an ambulance come up behind me running codes. I saw that he had his lights flashing at the same time that I heard his siren coming up behind me. This is with the radio going and the windows up.

Oh and a couple other thigns. When the ambulance drew abreast of me the siren managed to drown out and actually hurt my hears more than the stereo. Not to mention that apparently the guy in front of me hadn't pulled far enough over quick enough so he hit the air horn which just about rattled me out of the car.

And as for the second thing has anyone who is griping so much about them ever actually ridden in a car with a system? Or talked to someone besides myself who has one? Just curious.

Berry sayeth:If I'm not in your car and I hear the siren 1 second later how the hell can you hear the siren before me.
The only way you could not hear the siren at about the same time as me is if you where several blocks away. Most sirens operate in the 80-90+ decibel range, also a lot of departments around here have switched over to the european 2 tone warble instead of the american warble. This was done because it penetrates more noisy environments and is not a natural rythmic sound that blends in.

Um, 1 second after I would if your loud stereo wasn't there.

I don't care what siren sound they make. If another loud noise is present their ability to be heard is diminished.

I fill a tank with oil. It has no windows. It is a 40 gallon tank and I'm using a 55 gallon drum. I have to listen to the splashing in the tank. I turn off the radio and the air filter. Both are at different frequencies than splashing oil, but both are loud and would interefere with my hearing. Not having the radio on is not convenient for my co-workers, but the EPA investigation of spilled oil would trouble them more.

I'm sorry you live in Cincy. I think regular physics might be a better basis for laws in places without lights on streetlights to tell you to pull over.

I dont live in cincy fortunately. I live in the country about 25 miles east. I just have to go to cincy sometimes for work.

There is a slight difference in filling a barrel/tank with somethign and driving in a car.

As for physics what i am talking about is ou are on main street, the ambulance is one block left of you paralelling your direction of travel. In a cities canyons with the echos you might be able to tell it is on your left but not if it is coming up the cross street or if it is parralellign until you make visual which is why the city put the lights up. which does make sense to me.


And as for diminishing the sound's ability to be heard many new cars sound insulation does that passively without even having the factory radio turned on. In a 300C for example, the sound insulation is thick enough that with the windows up even hearing the horn on another car or anythign from neighboring traffic is difficult. Including sirens from emergency vehciles.

And lastly when laws are made on basic scietific or logical reasons the world will be turned upside down.

And as for the second thing has anyone who is griping so much about them ever actually ridden in a car with a system? Or talked to someone besides myself who has one? Just curious.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

If your(*) f***ing radio is loud enough I can hear it inside my home with the windows closed, if it's so f***ing full of bass that the windows in my house are rattling, then I don't give a d@mn how nice it sounds to the insensitive clods inside the car, IT'S TOO MOTHERF***ING LOUD!


(*)- This is a universal your, not referring to you personally, as I realize it's not you specifically who's blasting the radio down my street.

And lastly when laws are made on basic scietific or logical reasons the world will be turned upside down.

So what basis would you use?

Are you saying a noise does not interfere with other noise? You mean if Nove Rockhoomer is yelling, "Fire!" but you will hear him just as soon as in a silent room than if the TV is blarring?

I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Berry, I was making a joke as in when monkeys fly, etc... I personally would like to use basic reason as a lawgiver basis. Laws where people would not be able to stick their nose so easily into other people's business like people want to do especially over something as simple and pointless as how a person listens to their music.

And we are not talking about noise we are talking about music and a high pitched high frequency blaring 100 decibel wail that penetrates the low frequencies most commonly used in systems but with the windows down you can hear better with a system than with the windows up on a new car. And as far as i was saying about seeing the emergency vehicle in the canyons of a city at the same time the sounds focus themselves into somethign coherent enough to determine the location of the vehicle. I think that I am right.

And anonymous perhaps some anger management or other classes would behoove you. I know you are not intending to insult me personally, and not everyone who has a system in their car is considerate. but not everything played on the systems is crud nor is everyone who has one personally attacking, blasting or otherwise booming to annoy you. Also unless your house is incredibly fragile or the people in your neighborhood have show car systems I doubt there is much danger to your windows or ears. And as for insensitivity having you yelling obscenities does not exactly equate out to a very sensitive behavior.

I am sorry you people find it so difficult to ignore something so minor and be so asinine as to want to pass one more useless law that would just be ignored anyhow or would be difficult to enforce. (both of which are very common in the cincy area, and as I mentioned before the chamber of commerce pressured the police to stop enforcing the laws at the behest of the local mall/shopping district at least on friday and saturday nights and for people who are not so flagrantly disobedient.) Noise and annoyances are just as elusive to enforce and codify as are ethics and morals, everybody has a different opinion as to what is what.

And on this subject I KNOW I am right and thats all there is to say about it.

Laws where people would not be able to stick their nose so easily into other people's business like people want to do especially over something as simple and pointless as how a person listens to their music.

Your right to your music ends at my ears. Play it all you want, as loud as you want. When you start shaking MY windows, you've crossed the line, and are infringing on my rights.

But it is a temporary and relatively harmless issue. If a person parks their car next to you or in your driveway then yes it is a problema nd is causing harm. but a person driving by on a PUBLIC road has one concern, not hititng or being hit by other drivers or pedestrians.

Each person has the right to live their life as they wish it with no intereference from government or other individuals as long as they do not cause lasting harm. Rape, murder, theft these things are definately harmful, listening to your stereo ,loud or not, while driving is not nor is it in the same category. And while yes it would be a bit more considerate to maybe turn it down a smidge in residental zones there are a lot of people who are inconsiderate in otherways. Driving too slow on roads marked for speeds (IF you can't at least do the speed limit get off the road or put a slow moving vehcile sign on your car), driving a stupid SUV ten sizes too big for what you need, driving while eating breakfast and talking on the phone and doing office work all at the same time (actually witnessed by me on 275), among a vast array of other thigns that i personally find rude and maybe other people do too. But as i was trying to point out each persons tolerance level is quite different, a person drives by with a system in their car it is a temporary annouyance no more than a fly or mosquito buzzing my ear, A person goes weaving down the road from the local bar that is not a mere annoyance that is a death waiting to happen. The difference in badness level or threat level is quite apparent to me.

And besides tuners and customizers are a part of the car culture. People have been makign their cars louder, faster or individually customized since there have been cars to do so. It is a part of american culture just like mom and apple pie. As the predominately teens and early twenties tuners get older they do get more mellow and mature and a bit more considerate in my experience as to how they do things.

I wonder what would happen if somebody was in a sound-insulated car AND had the stereo full blast. Would that be enough of a hazard?

Also, when I hear an ambulance in a city, I know that I need to be looking out for it even if it's not visible yet. So I want to hear it as soon as possible.

The noise laws may seem arbitrary, but as Berry pointed out earlier, speed laws are arbitrary as well. And do you stop somebody who's going five miles over? Ten? Twenty? There's got to be a line drawn somewhere. (Unless you think speed laws are simply an annoyance too, then never mind)

But if you KNOW you're right, I guess what I say doesn't make any difference.

P.S. I don't believe Anonymous said that the music was crud or that people were blasting the music purposely to annoy him. Actually, I don't think anyone here has said that. He had a good point beneath all the anger issues.

To defend anonymous, if the stereo is blaring rap, Wagner, or Miles Davis is irrelevant. One man's music is another man's noise. If it is a really great song or loud static I will still have a problem hearing Nove shouting "Fire!"

I agree with ScottN. You have every right to shake your fist. That right ends at my nose.

I was saying I know in response to Berry's I may be wrong etc....

If I misunderstood anonymous or misstated myself then i am sorry.

As for speed I agree there should be controls. But I would also like to see a minimum speed limit imposed on interstates and certain sections of highways. As for what an upper limit is I would have to say that would depend on the weather and road conditions. Like in Montana reasonable and prudent. I would trust myself and my car on a dry straight controlled access road to do a hundred with no problems. On something curvier or sightline challenged roads a lot less speed. In towns or residential areas the speed limits need to be a lot lower and more closely enforced.

And you have the right to whine and complain about my music but leave the nany laws out of it.

And berry Like I tried to explain a siren is 120 decibels at 10' (As per my local police department public affairs officer, I called them today.) They operate in one of three modes, Wail, yelp, or pierce. These different modes are used depending on conditions to penetrate the traffic noise or sound propagation in urban areas.

According to the officer trucks (ie dump and semi) as well as the new car sound insulation and stero systems all contribute to about the same degree of not hearing the siren, which is why they added the pierce mode. It operates on a frequency that is high enough to penetrate the low frequency sounds generated by trucks, road noise insulation AND the usual bass on a stereo system. As well as being a specific pattern desigend to not be associated with music or other natural sounds.

And last but not least if that isnt enough on fire trucks and ambulances (at least the bigger ones) They have a set of air horns that blast out at 120 decibels as well as 2 200watt siren emitters.

So the police and emergency vehicle designers ahve taken things into account. More emergency vehicle accidents are caused by driver innattention (civillian not the EMV driver)according to the Police PR offcier than any other cause.

If I misunderstood anonymous or misstated myself then i am sorry.

I believe you have. Yes, I do have anger over this issue, but I don't believe it's misplaced when cars come blasting the stuff (whatever kind of music it is, whether heavenly or cr@p, being irrelevant) past my house, often well after 11pm, often for several minutes at a time, often several times a day.

I don't believe I ever said I wanted any laws or anything like that, I just want some damned consideration. I want for people with these dadblamed super loud stereos to turn them the hell down when in residental neighborhoods. Blast 'em all you want on the highway where it's only gonna make you deaf and not disrupt entire households because it's causing more vibrations than a typical thunderstorm.

Is it as important as terrorism or murder or rape or real bad things like that? Of course not. But is it something that should just be written off entirely? Also no.

And berry Like I tried to explain...

Your sound insulation argument is like saying that photo copiers are getting better so we should stop wasting time trying to stop counterfeiters.

Post 18 paragraphs or one paragraph on how copiers are getting better does not absolve the people who try to make copies of twenties. The changes in copier technology are a separate issue.

It also does not mater what decimal range the sirens go at. If you are singing loudly in my ear it affects my ability to hear a tuba solo or a piccolo solo.

If you say your singing loudly does not affect your ability to hear something else, I don't believe you.

Ok anonymous I see the situation a bit better now. I do try and take others into consideration when I run my system (Turning it off or down depending on the area, and time). I know there are those who don't but one of the joys of being the oldest in the club is that I am trying to inject a bit of maturity into the other members. (The average age of which is 20, makes me feel old) Maybe if there is a car club in the area you could write a nice, polite letter to them or drop by and talk to them about things. Most of the kids I know are pretty cool and it might do some good to appeal to their better nature. Or it might not I don't know how the people in your area (wherever it is) are.

And Berry. It looks like we'll be going aaround and round on this subject til doomsday. I know from direct experience that having a bass system has little effect on being able to hear a siren thanks to the frequencies. And talking about the sound insulation on new cars is not an unrelated subject. I was using that to illustrate how there is more than just systems at work in new cars. By increasing the amount of sound insulation to isolate the driver from the world around him it has the same affect you are ascribing solely to systems. And affecting does not automatically mean deny.

Plus if the Police PA officer wasn't too concerned about the affect systems have on the sirens then I'm not going to worry about it either. Although I do know a person who is a volunteer firefighter and if we can ever get our schedules to synch up I might see if we can run a test on how far and how loud etc...

When the studies were made to back up the legislation banning cell phone use by the drivers of moving vehicles, it was discovered that the distraction factor was much greater than the balancing factor.

In other words multi-tasking, in this case listening, slowed down reaction time more significantly than the loss due to the need to drop the phone before grabbing the wheel.

This reaction time loss occurred not only with cell phone conversations, but also with in-person conversations and stereo, etc.

The politicians knew it would not be possible to ban all these distractions, so they ignored the studies and passed the original intended law which only mandates that in-car cell phones must be hands free.

I know from direct experience that having a bass system has little effect on being able to hear a siren thanks to the frequencies. And talking about the sound insulation on new cars is not an unrelated subject. I was using that to illustrate how there is more than just systems at work in new cars. By increasing the amount of sound insulation to isolate the driver from the world around him it has the same affect you are ascribing solely to systems. And affecting does not automatically mean deny.

First, Blue Berry did not ascribe the effect solely to stereo systems. Although his counterfeiting/copier example might not have been the best to make his point, he seems to be saying "if a new problem is affecting the situation, it does not absolve the original problem. If anything, there is every possibility that the combined effect will be even worse, which makes it all the more important to solve the original problem."

Plus if the Police PA officer wasn't too concerned about the affect systems ...

Police officers enforce laws. If you weren't talking on a hand-held cell phone, you weren't breaking the law. Beyond that, he was expressing his personal opinion. His personal opinion is worth as much as any poster here, but no more.

True a police officer's personal opinion may be the same as any poster's here, but they have the gun and the badge and any excuse if they wish to enforce their personal opinion over you then your opinion truely doesnt matter. Yes cops have to stay within the law but that still doesnt prohibit them from fishing expeditions. So by calling for new laws to combat minor annoyances or to try and press your opinon/ethics/morals/values or whatever on another person that just gives those who wish to abuse their power more ammunition to do so.

Are systems loud? yes
Do some people use them inconsiderately? yes
Are people able to be inconsiderate outside of using a system? Yes.
Is it a big deal? No
Should people be fraking out and trashing those who run systems? No
Should the police be handed more power in their anti-tuner bias? Heck no.

What should be done? Try and deal with the problems through discussion, education and tolerance for diverse views. The same way many of the "problems" in the world and counry can be dealt with.

I did not say that new laws were needed.

I said that if you want to run a 100 dB stereo, that's your right... as long as it doesn't infringe on my property/ears/whatever. At which point, it becomes disturbing the peace.

Yeah, if they wanna play 'em that loud in public, they should be required to drive around the neighborhood playing "MMM-Bop!" one hour a day, with the windows down, so the neighbors can point and do a Nelson -- "Ha-Ha!"

Maybe we could find some Klingon opera for them to play.

Actually Narn Opera would be scarier. And yes Scott you did not call for new laws, Berry did.

And yeah Opera does sound very nice on a system I play Wagner sometimes just for the fun of it.

Yeah. Legislators should follow Occam's Razor: "Entities should not be multiplied without reason."

Of course, since *making law* is their job definition....

mmaking law isnt that what a horse does after it eats too much?

Since Scott pointed out it is a law already I would demand the local police get out of the donut shops and enforce it.

And, yes, hearing a sound near you impedes your ability to hear other sounds.

A very tenuous and hard to enforce law when it coems to car stereos. I like it better when they have a decebil limit that is easily measureable as it forces the police to use repeatable and measureable conditions that can hold up in court other than a personal interpretation of what is too loud or disturbing. Unfortunately this means that the cops would actually have to do work and use technology. Also that would not target just tuners which already labor under a too strong antituner bias among too many people in power.

Because as we have seen different people have a differnt tolerance level for systems.

Tomorrow I will be conducting the experiment with my friend who is a volunteer fireman at our local high school. I managed to arrange permission from the principal and if things go well I might actually have one of the local cops show up as well as the members of the car club. So this is turning into somethign rather interesting.

Also one good thing for tuners is that the state of Ohio is finally considering getting rid of that dang front plate. It is useless and would save the state over a million dollars a year the news release said. Of course the police are griping that it would make their job harder but since indiana and kentucky both have just one plate it doesnt seem to be making the cops job that much harder for them.

Plus since a lot of new cars come from the factory designed for no front plate (The Durango and Caravan to name two I deal with on a regular basias as well as the most of the Suzuki cars) which means you have to drill holes in the fiberglass bumper cover. Rather annoying and believe it or not it does reduce the trade-in value.

OK things went ok today. My VF friend has a 86 mustang with lights and siren (low profile lights in and emitter mounted behind the grill.) Emitter sound level 108 db at 10' distance as measured by the local sheriff. (My radio at 10' with volume turned up full 90 decibels, a friend's 00 eclipse measured at 115 db both with windows closed)

The local school sits in the middle of an area between 2 roads. The private connecting road is a little under 300 yards long. How we set things up was We had the VF park at one end of the road. I then lined my car up with the front of his car with my back bumper almost touching his front. I then proceeded to drive away from his car in first gear with the windows up, for several passes.

The first pass the radio was turned off. I reached the other end of the driveway before not beign able to hear his siren.

The second pass I had the radio on at 1/4 volume. Sound level not even measureable outside of vehicle. I reached the end of the driveway before not being able to hear the sound.

With each successive pass I turned the sound level up until I reached full volume. Each pass the distance did decrease but only by a short distance each time. By the full volume pass I was only 50 yards from the end of the driveway.

My friend's eclipse repeated the same pattern with only slight differences in the distances involved. By the full volume pass he was another 20 yards shorter than my distance.

Vehicles involved where chosen for similarity of bodystyle and engine noises as well as sound insulation (I actually have more in my doors as I put aftermarket sound insulation in (dynamat brand) ) I have factory exhaust while he has headers and pipes as well as a resonator (measured sound level 80 db)

Visual contact with lights where maintained at all times.

One pass each was made with sheriff's cruiser standing in for my VF friend's mustang. (2004 Ford Crown Victoria Lights and emitters roof mounted with aux lights on grill) Since we only had one pass available we went with the max volume one. Distances from sheriff's cruiser for some reason where slightly longer than from my friend's mustang. Not surprising sicne his siren measured at 125 db at 10' distance.

Conclusion in this instance: System noise level appears to have marginal affect on occupant awareness of emergency vehicle siren. Since visual contact of lights where maintained at all times even without audio awareness of vehicle occupant would be able to be aware of vehicle at all times.

True this situation is under ideal circumstances without all the other activity goign on around the driver as there is on the normal roads. But you follow the evidence.

Thank you R for proving that loud noises do not impede hearing other loud noises.

You are quite welcome and I also proved that all things being equal an emergency vehicle will be SEEN long before it is heard.

All things are not equal in real life. I rarely see an emergency vehicle before hearing it.

Does this answer the question of when you would begin to hear a siren with your radio blasting when you are not listening for it or expecting it? Maybe it does, but I'm just asking.

No thigns are not equal in real life but I tried to get thigns as close to the way my normal drive is. I drive on open country roads 90% of the time and 10% urban. So I generally see the vehcile first.

Because every good driver is constantly on the lookout for threats and situations that could affect their drive path they should be able to see the vehcile first unless the vehicle is hiding behind something.

As for when to expect a siren I would expect to be able to start hearing it at arond the same distance that you loose sound of it.

You see, most of us here live in urban/suburban areas, so we often hear sirens way before we see them (cross streets, etc...), therefore we *NEED* to be able to hear the siren first.

Well I never can understand how you can hear or sense anythign in the city anyhow. Whenever I go to downtown cincinnati or Dayton there is usually enough stuff goign on that just driving and navigating is tough enough. I do like how cincy has lights at each intersection showing if there is an emergency vehcile coming up on the side/cross street. Like I said earlier with all the echos from the buildings i cannot tell which way an emergency vehicle is or which way it is going.

For me, i cant stand the sound of traffic in the morning.

I love the sound of traffic in the morning. It sounds like... victory.

Victory is life.

Life is like a box of choklits.

Mmmmm.... Chocolate

Mmmmm.... Deanna.

Mmmmm.... Restraining Order