This site now seems to appeal to the demographic just slightly higher than the least common denominator. Pity. It wasn't always that way. I can still recall a time when people criticized the hell out of Star Trek's producers for ruining the show. Now it seems that only a very few here AREN'T looking forward to Enterprise. Sad. I suspect the dumbing down started occurring when a lot of the people that made this site worth visiting stopped coming here after the arrival of Peter. If MikeC or ScottN or Matthew Patterson stopped coming here then Phil might as well just shut Nitcentral down.

Or it could have started when people use "it's" when they mean "its" (meaning the title of this topic).

Good one!

Or when people with the suffix "nymous" in their name started posting here.

Phil, if you're watching, this may be an important question.

I've had a similar experience elsewhere, Anon. I was on the Jedi Council boards at theforce.net when they first started up, and the vast majority of discussions were intelligent. Most of the posters were die-hard fans and near experts. There was an atmosphere of camaraderie, and the respect for that fictional universe was balanced by an eye for real quality.

As word about the site spread, many who were novices at Star Wars began joining. Once the Phantom Menace trailer hit theaters, the average posting age dropped about five or ten years. By the time the movie was released, most of the members were young, new to Star Wars, had only a passing interest, and/or knew very little of grammar or Netiquette. The older members (at least, those who weren't moderators) left one by one as their interest in the boards waned.

I haven't been around to see the progression here at NCIEO, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same case at this site. It could simply be the natural result of having a public forum. No one's "dumbing it down" per se, but no one's "smarting it up" (???) either; because there's no standard or authority ensuring the quality of posts or membership. We do have moderators, but moderators cannot impart discernment and insight to their posters.

I'd encourage anyone who's been trying to keep things interesting and enlightening: persevere. The more of you (us?) there are, the longer this site will maintain its intellectual vibrance and the greater pride we can have in the name Nitpicker.

If you'd like my personal opinion (I knew you would! I just knew it!), I liked this site best when it was just Phil. Weekly "Ask the Chief" columns and posted Brash Reflections were always fun to read, and there was less opportunity for extended negative exchanges. Not everyone agreed with Phil on everything, of course, but you must admit he did have an unwinking, objective eye balanced with the lightheartedness and good cheer that characterize the noble sort of nitpicker.

Having left in the wake of Phil's publishing problems and recently returned, I'm generally pleased with what I see here. The current format offers flexibility and interaction among Guild members. I'd like to see things improve rather than regress, if for no other reason than that this is Phil's dream. His nitpicking has grown from a small circle of friends to thousands worldwide, and even a few from Canada (wink, wink). Let's constructively encourage newcomers to help them grow in their ability to nitpick well, and not be riled by the few who might resist. Think of it as furthering our own kind of exploration, the Big Discourse if you will. As posters, the charting of this course and the joy of the journey lie with us.

What is wrong with looking forward to something new in the Star Trek universe? I personally feel that this series is a reasonably bad idea set in a worse time period (No UFP? NOOOOOOO!), and I have gone on amny rants, pacing around my home yelling and screaming about the idiocy of the producers in this matter, yet I still look forward to seeing it, for two reasons: 1, I will probably be vindicated, and have a temporary feeling of completley hollow smugness, or 2, the show might actualy be all right.

Some things that contributes to the growing meanness of this board were probably the coming of Peter, and the non-nitpickable boards such as the Religious, and Political Musings (which I moderate simply because I love politics). Not that these are bad boards, but it is easier to get into a harsh discussion about Wiccanism, or communism, than a continuity error in "All Good Things" (The TOY Enterprise is on the video box! What were they thinking! Data a Lt./JG? What were they thinking? The anomaly not being there when the Pasture goes to the Devron system, then appearing when Admiral Cantankerous is finally convinced to go and look for it, when it is clearly stated that it is larger in the past? What were they thinking? And that's my favorite episode. You should hear me about the ones I hate, but it's all in good fun).

"Wiccanism"

See, this site just isn't the same. Nobody's here to chew you out for this grave mistake.

Um, what?

It's not Wiccanism, it's Wicca.

We discussed that a long time ago on Religious Musings. To use Mark Morgan's words, "Wiccanism, the home of all the little Wiccanoid boys and girls, watching their Wiccavision monitors, talking on their Wiccacommunicators, and playing with their multimedia Wiccaentertainment systems."

The religion is called Wicca. Though I have to thank Mark for posting that, as I still can't read "Wiccacommunicator" without busting out laughing.

Do they also wear Wicca-watches?

Back to the original topic. I would have to agree that this site has in a way been "dummbed down" since it first started to exist. I remember when we used to submit out Voyager nits by e-mail. Phil would then post them on the site. The same went for movies etc.

I remember how "cool" it was when he installed this board on. now we could discuss it "real time" (well sorta) and the oportunity to have lots of TV shows was seemingly endless.

The amount of TV shows was small, if I remember correctly at first it was just the trek series and the x-files and a couple of others.

The discussions were intelligent and there were no flame wars.

Over the past year or two the amount of topics has increased considerably. As a result many more people visit here. And as a result of that it seems as if there are many more flame wars now, often they involve personal comments and people playing the role of "spelling police"

As a result I do find the enjoyability of the board has gone down a bit. I do still enjoy it though , so it's not as if I'm about to leave as I still come here everyday and read new postings and add my own comments if I feel like it.

I think that the decline of this board (if such a decline has taken place that is) is a direct result of so many topics existing on it. People from all over the place are now comming here and posting where before it was mostly just people who wanted to nitpick and read nitpicks on Star Trek.

This sort of thing happens a lot though. Other message boards have ended up the same way or on their way to doing so. In nearly every case its the same. When the board is still relativly small and not yet very popular there is often a small group of people that visit and discuss whatever on it. Often the problems start when the board gets big and has tons visitors. This is often the time when flame wars start and other disturbing thing happen.

As for the cure. I dont know. One way may be to make this board just for discusing Star Trek but that would really upset a lot of people. Another way could be to make people regiester to post and users who cause trouble will be banned. But I'm not sure if discuss supports that, as normally the only people that are registered that board moderators.

I don't know if it's necessarily the amount of topics, Chris, but the nature of certain topics definitely entails a certain level of emotion. Given the passions that are always displayed when discussing politics, abortion, homosexuality, religion, etc., I have a feeling that at least some of the wars would still have occurred had the site been limited to just Sci-fi and Religion and Politics.

I also think that there are only a few who engage in inflamed arguments. If it weren't for Rene and Peter's insults (though Rene has thankfully not been acting up lately in that regard), and Jwb's irrational explanations and refusal to ever admit he's wrong, I think the amount of heated arguments would've been considerably lower.

I'd like to point out though, that we seem to have the first NitCentral wedding in the works.

Over on Voices of Unreason, Mark Morgan has told us that he proposed to M. Jenkins and she said yes.

I think it's a little too convenient and pat to attribute the tapering off of the whole NitCentral thing to simply Peter. Just like any good website, it's in a state of flux. I've been off for weeks at a time, returned, and gotten back to discussing before taking off again. It's how things go.

Mark Morgan and Marlene Jenkins are getting married! Ahhh, how ironic :->

I think its (I'm sorry it's it's! Don't kill me because I'm not a genius!) very self-centered of people to think that those with a different opinion of something are somehow less intelligent than he or she is.
It's also selfish to think that you can all have a little private forum on a public device such as the Internet.
Jeez! More people make for better discussions. (I still wish people would visit my Farscape board. [shameless plug :^)] I'm beginning to think I keep it for nothing)
And I've had conversations with many people that would be classified by most to be pretty dumb, and yet they can be very insightful. And they're usually a lot more polite than the arisocracy that is Nitcentral.
There are a lot of nice people on Nitcentral. There are also a lot of mean ones. But that's what you get when you have a public forum. If you want your own little thing, then go create one and put a password on it.
I get criticized a lot, my opinions are often deemed idiotic, and some even state that my parents were never married when I was concieved, but I don't let it bother me. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. It enhances one's world view when one hears what others are thinking.
Dang! I'm ranting again. This is becoming a habit. I need to get a hobby. :^)

See ya later
TUE

One of the problems I've noticed on the boards is the occasional 'disappearance' of moderators (I believe this happened on the DS9 one; please correct me if I'm wrong).
Personally I think we should have a 'Discus Moderator'; that being someone who posts everyday and so will almost always be contactable by e-mail. Then, should there be a problem on a board, and there seems to be no response from the board moderator, this person can be contacted to deal with it.
After all, although Phil is, and always will be, Chief, by his own admission he is only able to check his mail once a week, and so doesn't really have the time required to keep an eye on things on the boards.
Any thoughts on this idea?

Phillip C, I suggested the idea of a "roving" moderator to Phil the Chief a year or so back, during one of the spates of trolls making nasty posts. I considered offering to take on the job myself, but realized I wouldn't be able to keep up the pretty much daily visits such a person would have to commit to making. I still think it's a good idea and I'm glad to see I'm not the only one it's occurred to.

-- This site now seems to appeal to the demographic just slightly higher than the least common denominator. Pity. It wasn't always that way. I can still recall a time when people criticized the hell out of Star Trek's producers for ruining the show. Now it seems that only a very few here AREN'T looking forward to Enterprise. Sad. I suspect the dumbing down started occurring when a lot of the people that made this site worth visiting stopped coming here after the arrival of Peter. If MikeC or ScottN or Matthew Patterson stopped coming here then Phil might as well just shut Nitcentral down. --

You're saying the purpose of nitcentral is to complain. It isn't. Read the nitpicker's guild rules of conduct on the main site.

Hi,

I'm not an original member. I guess I'm a moron. I'd post longer but I usually don't defend my worth.

Sorry I dumbed down this site.

>I can still recall a time when people criticized the hell out of Star Trek's producers for ruining the show. Now it seems that only a very few here AREN'T looking forward to Enterprise. Sad.>

Another possibility is that Enterprise is better than Voyager. Heck, even the test patern channel is better that Voyager.

PS I've been here since September of 1997.

Hey, William, I'm an even newer member than you, so don't feel too bad. Me, I'm gonna go right home and tear up that derned high school diploma - obviously it never got me anywhere that counted.

Seriously...my position is substantially that of X's post of July 1: Basically, you wanna discuss politics, religion, and other topics that involve people's personal opinions, you're asking for it.

On the other hand, you only have to check out the civility level on other boards to realize that what we have here is actually pretty special. The number of actively hostile posters is minimal; the 'intelligent' types are still very much in the majority. (Pay a visit to ESPN.com's NFL boards, sometime, and you'll see what I mean.)

But it seems to me that what we're really discussing here isn't the intelligence level so much as the snobbery level, i.e. experts only please.
Now, I can see where a board run by and for diehard, say, Farscape fanatics would be hampered by less-than-knowledgeable posters. Although even then...it's not like they're trying to discover the cure for cancer or anything! But I can accept that they'd want to share information on a level above the average Joe-on-the-street.
NitCentral, on the other hand, has from the start been a far more laid-back forum. ('Everybody gets a right to their own opinion', remember?) We're just a bunch of fans here to display our affection for various sci-fi media...not to obsess over every teeny detail.

So what if Trek posters have the temerity to be entertained by the new series? (And how does that affect the quality of their posts, anyway? Even the Chief stressed that he was nitpicking out of respect and love for Trek.)
Who cares if the Star Wars posters don't know the name and rank of every single member of the Imperial Guard? Isn't it just possible they have interesting things to say about what they do know? (And Chronicler, forgive me, but Wars fans seem to be especially touchy about this. I'm a casual fan and would love to post to that board more often, but have been put off by the repeated dissing.)

We're not all experts. But we're still - mostly - able to entertain, argue, and inform each other. Let's enjoy what we've got, OK?

You hit the mark Kerrie. Things are more civil here than many other places. I had the misfortune to be part of an e-mail type guitar discussion and it was nothing but a round robin flame war. I got out of that one after one day. This place is much better than unmoderated boards by far.

Kerriem,

I want the top bunk in our room at the home for terribly retarded late comers to this site.

I found an interesting link to the Lifecycle of Mailing Lists. It could apply here, too!

Well, here is my 2-cents worth on the problems.
I am not a member, but I do post here quite often. If people think my posts are annoying and unwanted, I'll post no more. I just enjoy the ability to continue (sort of) reading "The Nitpicker's Guide for [Insert Show Here] Trekkers," and this site has enabled me to do that.

Now for my point*

The posts on these pages may be showing signs of "dumbing down," but is it possible that the posters themselves have been "dumbed down" (not an attack on anyone), but the education system is not what it used to be. Critical thinking skills, grammer, even math and sciences are not taught as well as they used to be in public schools today.

The other reason is that the shows themselves are not living up to the standards of nitpickers who came in with TNG. If a show only a has few nits in it, it would take a lot more effort to find them. Thus, someone would need to be clever to be able to find them; but if a show, like enterprise, is filled with lots of errors then the posting of nits would seem to be cheezy. <(spelling) The nitpickers themselves aren't offering cheezy nits, the show itself is.

I just enjoy the ability to continue (sort of) reading "The Nitpicker's Guide for [Insert Show Here] Trekkers," and this site has enabled me to do that.

That's - or something like it - why we're all of us here, 2-Cents.

And that was largely my point above; not that the average poster here is getting dumber (all you have to do is read for awhile to disprove that), or that the shows are (NextGen eventually spawned enough nits to fill two Guides, remember)...more that it's become increasingly clear that this isn't a board for experts.

We're here to have fun, express our affection for various media, and maybe be clever or silly or argumentative or even funny, as the mood strikes. And to paraphrase Jack Nicholson in Mars Attacks! - "That ain't bad."

The problem with "Dumbing down" has much to do with definitions. If A does not agree with B then A thinks that B is obviously too $tupid to realize the brilliance that is A. The fact that B insists on existing is proof that the world is "Dumbing Down". Usually the one claiming "obvious" superiority is an 1diot.

Are we at stage 6a yet?

I wouldnt say it ahs been dumbed down but I would say that it has certainly become intolerant of any ideas, discussion or thoughts that do not conform to the prevailing right wing socio political beliefs of the dictators.

That's a ridiculous viewpoint--this board is hardly dominated by right-wingers. To my knowledge, there are only a handful of conservative Christians that even post on this board (I am one of them).