Remember the alien ambassador that Ivanova's former lover wanted Sinclair to kill in the first season? A similar alien showed up on DS9 just a few weeks ago! No wonder we haven't seen them on B5 for so long. They skipped universes!

Another similarity--was it not the beginning of the 2nd season, of both DS9 and Babylon 5, that the station-dwellers received a ship to go galavanting around the universe in? DS9's, of course, being the Defiant (and I don't know what B5's is).

The Babylon 5 ship was called the White Star

Both shows have had episodes entitled "Chrysalis."

Interesting that both shows have had characters with the name Dukat (perhaps there are differences in spelling between the two names).

DS9 has Leeta; B5 has Lyta.

Both Sisko and Sheridan have had superior officers played by the same actor.

It was the Third Season of each show.

By Todd Felton on Thursday, November 5, 1998 - 01:43 am:

Another similarity--was it not the beginning of the 2nd season, of both DS9
and Babylon 5, that the station-dwellers received a ship to go galavanting
around the universe in? DS9's, of course, being the Defiant (and I don't
know what B5's is).

And both had a six episode arc abotu a war established in the past! spooky, huh?

[message deleted due to profanity]

profanity?
English ain'tmy first languige. what does it mean?

Dear Anonymous,

There are a host of words in the English language--bandied about by those of limited vocabulary even though English is their first language--that are considered vulgar.

Although the broad categories of "profanity" and "obscenity" are used somewhat interchangably they actually refer to two different types of vulgarities.

Profanity is the usage of that which is considered holy for meaningless "fill-chatter".

Obscenity is the evoking of things which are normally considered repulsive to elicit an emotional response. (Often it it refers to some bodily function or the product of some bodily function.)

The recent movies, River of Souls had a very obvious homage to Star Trek. In the reception area of the holobrothel there was a large poster advertizing image 47.

Actually, to be perfectly technical, obscenity isn't technically obscenity until it is determined to be obscene by a court...

Matt,

I'm simply going by the dictionary definition. And . . . while obscenity might be legally defined by the court with appropriate punishment to follow out in the real world . . . around here, I am judge, jury and executioner! ;-)

Aahhh!!! :-)

But of course...just wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't point it out...

One can go through all the similarites of DS9 and B5 all day. I'd rather point out the biggest diffrence.

Plot advancement!

By the time it takes DS9 to advance the main plot in two seasons B5 does it in ten episodes. This is due to the scarcity of filler episodes in B5. While 40% of DS9 plots are filler only about 15% of B5 episodes are such.

Now I'm not poo-pooing DS9. I enjoy the show alot. It's just that DS9 takes too much time giving the fans what they want while B5 gives their fans what they need, plot continuity. How many contunity errors happen on B5, few? The only errors I have seen are glitches in previously stated facts, like when Delenn said there were only two castes in Mimbari society in the first season when two seasons down the road a third one popped up. Conversely, DS9 has ignored capabilities, forgoten old solutions, and brought about self terminating stories that tear a hole in your soul.

But on the other hand B5 has has one or two really stinko episodes. The protector episode and the cheesy-alien-monster-Garibaldi-killed-with the-steam-powered-zip-gun episode a.k.a "What ever happened to grey 13" come to mind ;P

But in conclusion let's look at what the shows are about in the end. DS9 is a trek franchise to support all of us trek fans with a stream of cool stories that have no connection to each other save for character advancement and build up to the last episode just for the sake of sateing our desire to enjoy trek. B5 however does'nt want to feed us stories, they want to feed us ONE story. One so big it needs to be broken up into 100 chapters.

In the end comparing B5 to DS9 is like comparing apples to oranges. I bet JMS and Rick Bergman enjoy aceing each other to do something diffrent with their shows, even though they don't want to admit it ;) Let's just face it, both shows are great and very diffrent. (puns and homages aside) Any other biased opinion is whiney, newsgroup, fanboy trash written for the sole purpose of raining on everybody else's enjoyment.

A little off-topic, but according to my non-Net-going-Babylon 5-watching-friend,
you're right. He also says that The X-Files is going the way of B5, but more slowly, and
he wishes that they would hurry up and cut to the conspiracy eps. On the other hand,
we want X-F to last as long as possible.

One comment about the X-files we've had a deluge of cospiracy episodes ("The End", Fight The Future, "The Begining", the next episode, etc.) I Personally would like a nice simple abduction/ serial killer episode just to break things up. I like pizza, but I wouldn't want it every day.

That's why B5 and DS9 have "filler" episodes. I breaks up the big story arcs. M*A*S*H is a good example, it (like B5 and DS9) was about THE WAR. But, they occasionally had an episode to break up the tension (The baseball episode and "Lieutenant Radar O'Riley" come to mind.)

And, now I shall step off my soap box.

DS9 takes a long time to advance the plot? Hey at least DS9 has more than one plot throughout the entire series.

This *was* him, not me, and although for the most part I agree with him, I think that
the humorous eps were really good. There was one in paticular, last season that i
really liked. The beginning was really Dilbert-esque, as M&S are on their way to a
conference about... no, not aliens, not the JFK conspiracy, but...communication! Oh,
joy. I think the creators realized the *actual* plot (strange forest being kills people)
wasn't all that great, so why not inject humor? Can someone tell me the name of that
ep, please, so I can post on that board instead of this one. I don't even watc

K.N.D -- Detour

-- 12 --

The sci-fi ball score:
Deep Space 9
Babylon 5

Hi-lites on ESPN

Shouldn't that one go into the Groaners section?

Not exactly B5-DS9, but did anyone notice on "Voyager" that the bio-ships of Species 8472 looked similar to Vorlon ships?

I was sure someone would post this eventually, but apparently not...

In the B5 pilot episode, Siclair has a girlfriend (Carolyn, right?) who is a freighter pilot. My, my, that sounds familiar. Now what other space station commander do we know whose significant other is a freighter pilot?

Not DS9 but still Star Trek - in the Voyager episode "Distant Origin", the AOTW has an assistant called Vir!

Don't forget, they both have G'Kar. Kira's boyfriend spelled his name differently (don't remember how), but it's pronounced the same. And he came on AFTER B5.

Sorry Mei, but Kira's (ex-?( I'm only up to Valiant at the moment))boyfriend was Shakkar.

However, Andreas Katsulas (G'Kar) did appear in various episodes of TNG as a romulan, Tomalak (Future Imperfect, and I think he was in The Defector).

Let's not forget guys and gals that Lennier
aka Bill Mumy appeared in the DS9 episode where
they were being besieged by the Jam'Hadar.Of course his character ended up biting the dust
in the end.

Speaking of baseball,baseball is still around in
the B5 universe and of course we all know how
much Sisko loves to play the game on DS9.(BTW:
TAKE ME OUT TO THE HOLOSUIT was one of my fave
DS9 episodes this season so far).
Also on B5 Garibaldi is a HUGE Dodgers fan!
(Great minds even in different centuries think
a like.)

Let's not forget Ivanova's great line in Voices of Authority - "I think you're about to go where everyone has gone before."

As far as Edje's comments of 11/11, I think you need to examine the series again. While the war with the Shadows is the overall plot, there are several "mini-arcs" throughout the series regarding character and sub-plot developments. And since JMS wrote most of the episodes, they got resolved nicely. This is not a slam on you, just an observation that might make you enjoy the series more.

I think I read somewhere that JMS initially took the Babylon 5 idea to Paramount and it was rejected. Shortly thereafter, DS9 came on. Since DS9 came on first, it made Babylon 5 look like a copy. I think there was some legal action involved. Phil, can you confirm this? What was the outcome?

Kitzman: Paramount pulled out their big guns, and despite everything JMS had against them, they won! Bastards!

Webber: So what did Paramount get? When was this settled?

Don't know. i just know those money-mongers at Paramount won the case. Seeing as B5 ended up coming on anyway (and vastly surpassing Voyager in the ratings, ha, ha, ha!), the settlement wasn't much probably.

Ya gotta wonder about the boneheads that run Paramount. There concern is, and always has been, the almighty dollar. The heck with what the fans think.

During the first season of B5, JMS was asked
about how he felt about the Trek franchise
having a huge budget for gorgeous sets and
efx, only to squander it on weak scripts
and inconsistent story lines.

JMS likened it to owning a Ferrari, but
only being able to drive it around the
block on Sunday afternoon. He placed the
blame on Parmount suits and not the
producers, but methinks he was being more
than kind.

Clearly, the Trek franchise has the edge
as to the look and feel of their universe.
It IS slick and impressive. But the Bab5
universe is far superior on a writing and
story line level, with much, much more
interesting and intricate plot lines.

Just think what a series it would have
been had Bab5 been picked up by Paramount
and they given JMS the "hands off"
freedom that Warner Bros gave, plus the
budget of DS9 or Voyager. We'd be
going "Star What? FEH!" right now.

D

I doubt it. B5's problem's have nothing ( or little) to do with the money - they have to do with JMS being the only person calling the shots there. Not only is he the only writer, but he's also the prodcer and decides what should be on or off and so on. this means, IMO, that no criticisem is possible from within. The quality is only reliant on JMS, and when he's off the trace or overworked, it shows

There was one line that I loved on B5, and it was written by Peter David, not JMS. It was 'There all the honour lies', and someone was setting up a shop to sell B5 toys and things on the station.

Ivonova: 'But, this isn't some Deep Space Franchise! This station is ABOUT something!'

Ouch.

B5 has the B5 crew breaking from earth while DS9 has the Klingons breaking away form the Federation...

Sinclair
Sheridan
Sisko

Need I say more?

Yeah, but you know why Sheridan and Sinclair have the same initial? Look at the creator of this shows initials (ignoring the middle one) Now look at Sheridan and Sinclair's initials (again, ignoring the middle ones). Notice a similarity?

And to have another perspective on the JMS/multiple writers thing. I'ver read in reviews that its amazing that Voyager can have so many writers, and still turn in shows that are remarkably similar, whereas B5 had ONE writers, and produced a really wide-ranging number of stories.

And you know WHY the species 8472 ships looked rather Vorlon? Who did the B5 effects for the first 3 years. Who now does Voyagers effects?
(Throwing away Foundation Image was a big mistake for B5. They didn't beat FI's effects until the TV movies)

Sorry, Stan Marsh, but last time I checked, JMS hasn't copyrighted last names that begin with "S."

Has DS9 started useing CG effects? One of the eps this season somehow made me think this, but I don't get really good reception.

DS9 uses them sometimes, but I get the impression that their sfx people prefer using models. Sometimes they have to use CGI like in big battle scenes or when Dukat and the pah-wraith roasted Jadzia (forgive me, it was the only other example I can think of) but in most cases I think they prefer to use traditional methods if they can.

Did anyone think that the ending of B5's "Mind War" was similar to Voyager's "The Gift"?

[Voy, yes, but still Star Trek]

At the beginning of the DS9 episode "Penumbra," when Sisko and Kasidy are talking about the Prophets and about destiny, I kept thinking of Sinclair. (you'll understand why better if you've read _To Dream in the City of Sorrows_)

Matthew, DS9 do indeed use CGI - but they often end up reusing battle shots again and again and again! (Gotta admire those 24th Century shipbuilders - they build the ships up so they can tear them down...) Mind you, this practice is not new at all - Star Trek 2, anyone?

I think you're all missing the most important similarity between DS9 and B5 - both are set in SPACE!!!!!!

[run away]

Why does everyone keep complaining about the reused battle footage? The story's the thing, not the pretty pictures that accompany it. I thought "What You Leave Behind" was a good way to say goodbye to the people we'd grown to love... except Jadzia, who apparently never existed.

By Liam Kavanagh on Thursday, January 21, 1999 - 08:13 pm:


>There was one line that I loved on B5, and it >was written by Peter David, not JMS. It >was 'There all the honour lies', and someone was >setting up a shop to sell B5 toys and things on >the station.

>Ivonova: 'But, this isn't some Deep Space >Franchise! This station is ABOUT something!'

>Ouch.

Yeah, but didn't Ivanova ALWAYS get the best lines?????

Another weird similarity between B5 and Star Trek turned up in Star Trek V. The rationales behind Nimbus III and the Babylon Project seem very similar. The idea of powerful but skeptical governments sending their less favored diplomat to represent them on Nimbus III reminds me of why Londo got appointed to B5 (nobody else wanted the job). Both places seem to have attracted a less than savory element to them; Nimbus III is like a planet-sized Downbelow. I mention this because as I understand it, JMS had his idea worked out in the mid-late 1980's, and he may have visited Paramount with it in the late 1980's, then the makers of Star Trek V may have done a little inspired borrowing from his gritty, un-Trek idea when they had to rewrite it (the original STV script was supposedly very different).

Oh please. JMS is not responsible for every last "orinigal idea" in recent Trek.

Well, the 'makers' of ST:V are basically William Shatner, who came up with the original screenplay, and William Shatner, who wrote the script, and William Shatner, who directed.

Given his film's, uh, turbulent history, it's been pretty well documented - in his own Star Trek Movie Memories and Nimoy's I Am Spock, for starters - just what changes Shatner was forced to make to his original idea, and none of them have to do with a lack of 'grittiness'...or Nimbus III, for that matter.

Excuse me, original idea.

That type of place goes back pretty far in fiction, Chris. Both B5 and Nimbus III are very much like Casablanca, which is, in turn, a MUCH older concept than that movie.

I'd been aware of the similarities between B5 and DS9 for a long time, and had even read about JMS pitching B5 to Paramount just before DS9 came on the air. However, I also noticed similarities between DS9 and a much earlier SF TV show, Space:1999.

Think about it:

Both shows have shapeshifters (Odo/Maya)

Both shows have a romantic relationship
between the first officer and the
shapeshifter (Odo/Kira and Tony/Maya)

Both shows feature disposable space vehicles
that are replaced regularly (Runabouts/Eagles)

Both shows feature an exotic non-human
beautiful woman as science officer (Jadzia/Maya)
And, this just occurred to me, both shows
contain plots where a fatherly mentor is replaced
by a young woman (Curzon/Jadzia and Bergman/Maya)

Both shows contain "Space" and "Nine"
in the title.

And, though this may be a bit of a stretch, I find the characters of Miles O'Brien and Alan Carter to be very similar, not identical, but very close in personality. Ironic that Nick Tate ended up playing opposite Colm Meaney in a DS9! ("Honor Among Thieves")

Anybody think of any more DS9/1999 similarities?

Um...stretching it here...there's the wormhole near Deep Space Nine, and the Moon went through one or two 'space warps' which could be similar...ooh, ooh, and there are Gods in both the wormhole and the black sun...

The first episode of each series sees the space station or the moonbase leave its original position...

Commanding officer, chief medical officer and another character thrown back into a period in Earth's past...

We get to see visions of both Deep Space Nine and Moonbase Alpha getting blown to bits.

I once read an article that put the budget for DSN at $12,000,000,with about $4,000,000 devoted to the sets. B5's pilot was made for $4,000,000,so they had to pull of their entire show for what DSN had for their sets alone.Incredible.I liked both series,never got the Trek/B5 feud between fans. I'm a sf fan & figure that if I'm fortunate enough to get two sf series on TV at the same time that are terrific,I've won the mega-millions lottery.I understand that we can disagree about the value of a particular show,but we don't have to become disagreeable.One of my best friends loves the Stargate shows,I don't care for them but I can recognize that they are done very well. My friend had no use for Farscape,a show which I found sensational.We had fun debates about it all but it wasn't anything to lose a friendship over either.It's unrealistic that even if we are all sf fans that we are all going to love the same movies or TV shows.