No matter how many times I see this episode I'm always moved by it. In fact this combined with Messages From Earth and Point Of No Return actually bring me almost to tears. It's easy to see why this episode won a Hugo Award. The scene where the Curchill rams one of the attacking Earth destroyers chokes me up every time. And the combat scene with all those jarheads against Garibaldi's people is really dramatic.

Couldn't agree more - the combat scene when it goes into slow motion, combined with Chris Franke's incredible music, makes me sob now matter how many times I watch it.

Doesn't Delen have the best timeimg ever?

Anon: You're complaining? I loved what she said to the EarthForce commanders who tried to order her to leave them alone.

I consider Delenn's line to the Earth Alliance ships the best in the entire five seasons. It was original, well-crafted, and delivered just right. Can they give a Hugo award for one line? ;-)

Well Kyle this episode did win the Hugo

yeah, but thetimming is sure fortunate. I loved this episode, too, of course. didn't EVERYONE?

A very powerful episode, well scripted, acted, and shot. I enjoyed it.

A possible nit. During the big battle scene, we pan along the side of the destroyer Churchill(the name is plainly visible) and see it take a burst of fire amidships. Immediantly we cut to the bridge of a destroyer where Major Ryan is in command. His Lt. says that they have been hit amidships and taken damage on two decks[I forget which--4 & 5?]. Isn't Major Ryan commanding the Alexander, *not* the Churchill, which goes down with all hands including its female captain?
Am I just confused here?

Ryan was on the Alexander. The Churchill goes up in flames. Maybe both ships were hit in (about) the same spot at about the same time. Hey, I'm trying here.

One of the biggest nits is one that even JMS has commented on. Toward the end of the fight the Churchill rams one of the enemy destroyers the Roanoke and destroys it. Later B5 and the remaining friendly destroyer open fire on the other enemy ship the Agrippa. Once it takes a few hits Sheridan goes on the comlink urging the Roanoke to surrender. I read somewhere that it was a special effects glitch with respect to the name on the ship being rammed. And I agree this is episode the one the absolute best peices of sci-fi action ever aired.

I am a solid Star Trek fan who thinks that Next Gen and DS9 are two of the best sci-fi shows ever to air on tv-and I will say that this was one
of the ten best hours of sci-fi that I have ever seen on a tv screen. Boy! this episode was awesome! Everyone was great, the writers, the actors, the direction-especially Delenn's line.

This must stand up next to Endgame as the finest episode in B5.
Another nit, much as I hate to nitpick this wonderful episode. When the Agrippa and Roanoake exit the jumpgate, they are accompanied by fighters, a breaching pod, and two of the smaller 'Hyperion' type cruisers. What happened to the 'Hyperions'? The two destroyers are accounted for, the breaching pod is stuck to B5's hull, and the fighters would be destroyed, disabled, or captured.

I was so disappointed that those Earth Force destroyers chickened out after Delenn showed up with a Minbari fleet. I would love to see an Earth Alliance Omega class destroyer go up against a Minbari Federation Sharlin class war cruiser!

There's another nit I felt needs addressing. Sheridan orders the scrambling of all fighter squadrons and security to be put on alert. THEN when the battle is near to starting he says that anyone who feels uncomfortable with the situation will be free to leave. What about any potentially Clark loyal Fury pilots?

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Sheridan orders the scrambling of all fighter squadrons and security to be put on alert. THEN when the battle is near to starting he says that anyone who feels uncomfortable with the situation will be free to leave.
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But wasn't it nice to actually see someone leave C&C. Most times when that sort of speech is made the whole crew is utterly loyal, but here, at least one of the command crew decides that they don't want to be involved in what's going to happen next.

Question:

how do the 'Hyperion' type ships have gravity? I don't recall seeing rotating sections.

Ruminations

- Had this been Star Trek, they would have not killed off Dodger and had her be one of the invading soldiers and have Garibaldi come across her when searching the wounded/dead. Ok... Well, I don't know if Star Trek would do that, but I'm glad they didn't try to throw in too many plot threads. The episode could have been overwhelming.

Probable Nits

- Given that no one really expected/or wanted to be fighting their own side, how do all the star furries know which star furries are the enemy? I suppose that they'd have a IFF system intsalled, but I'd think that all star furries would equal good.

- Someone needs to train the station Narn Security force in combat more. They seem to be charging in the open instead of staying behind cover and firing. We see several of them rush the enemy only to get shot in the chest. There were around 4 or 5 of them in a row.

NIT

- Sheridan tells Garibaldi to kill all communication via a kill switch with the exception of ISN and a channel to talk to friendly ships. How then does Sheridan get a hold of his dad?

More Ruminations

Just whose dreams were severed? Are they talking about Gray Council's refusal to go along with prophecy? Severing Clark's dream for Human Domination?

I thought it was more along the lines that this was the absolute commitment of B5 to the war. All along, I was hoping that somehow Clark would be revealed for what he was, that somehow the bad guys would be removed from power and B5 would end up being the leading light. However, this is the episode where we see friends being killed (as Bruce McGill's character ruminated) and everyone makes a choice about what side they are on. They always talked about it before, but this is it. It's also the episode where Sheridan refuses to wear his uniform, the ending of his career, the decision to take a stand on his own. In fact, is it possible to see each character making a life time decision? I'd have to watch the episode again. Yes, also, the Grey Council having their dreams ended. Again, they've been discussing this prophecy for years, possibly with the idea that each council won't see its fulfilment within their lifetimes. But here, they are being forced to confront it by Delenn. It's an ending of their dreams of power, since with the Council being broken, they are shown to be fallible. In fact, it is Delenn who takes the power now.

I always felt that there had been a bit of....humour, I guess, behind the whole idea of the Narns being part of the security, and wanting to fight on the right side. Which makes the slo-mo scenes even more poignant. No one's laughing anymore, and instead of the Narns being a bit of light relief (Londo's confrontation with the 'inefficiency' of the Narn customs officer, The Seer in the lift etc.), they are suddenly tragic and heroic. They too have committed themselves (OK, G'Kar kind of committed them, but they are backing him with their lives here).

Question:

how do the 'Hyperion' type ships have gravity? I don't recall seeing rotating sections.

They don't have gravity. We get to see inside a Hyperion class ship in 'In the Beginning' and it is clear that the ships have no gravity. We also get some indication from season ones 'A Voice in the wilderness' that the ships have no gravity as the Captain of the Hyperion class there is clearly strapped into his chair.

- Given that no one really expected/or wanted to be fighting their own side, how do all the star furries know which star furries are the enemy? I suppose that they'd have a IFF system intsalled, but I'd think that all star furries would equal good.

Starfuries do have IFF systems, after all their sensor systems would be quite able to detect ships far outside visual range. IFF systems work by sending out an encoded signal on a specific frequency band. If this coded frequency matches the one pre-set for all friendly craft it will be marked as friendly by the targeting system. The most likely way of marking ships so the pilot knows if an intended craft is friendly is by colour coding - friendly craft would be marked as blue or green in the HUD (or have a box around the target of that colour) while hostile ships would have red.

The IFF system can be reset to give out a different signal to prevent someone duplicating the signal and being listed as friendly, and it probably also gives the computer details about where the ship is based and a coded number to identify the specific ship. The class of ship sending the signal is, as far as the targeting system is concerned, irrelevant. What matters is the IFF signal.

- Someone needs to train the station Narn Security force in combat more. They seem to be charging in the open instead of staying behind cover and firing. We see several of them rush the enemy only to get shot in the chest. There were around 4 or 5 of them in a row.

This was deliberate and intended to show how hot headed Narns are, and how willing they are to die in order to win battles. This is explained by JMS on the DVD's commentary.

Just whose dreams were severed?

From the titles; '...The Babylon Project was a dream given form. Its goal: to prevent another war by creating a place where humans and aliens could work out their differences peacefully...it's our last best hope for peace.' (Season one)

'The Babylon Project was our last, best hope for peace....' (Season two)

'The Babylon Project was our last, best hope for peace. It failed...' (Season three)

The dream that was shattered was that the station would be able to prevent another war. (Arguably she had already failed in this task when the Narn-Centari war started). Other dreams that could be said to be;

Sheridan's hope that Clark could be removed from power peacefully.

Delen's hope that Humans and Minbari would fight alongside each other against the Shadows.

The hope that humans would not end up fighting each other.

The hope that Aliens and humans could co-exist peacefully.

The hope that if there were problems and violence the station could stay out of the fighting.

hey cyber, just to let you know, I haven't watched the commentaries or the behind the scenes stuff yet. Afterall, even if something is explained by JMS, it doesn't mean it's not a nit.

I know what an IFF is and does, my point was I doubted that Sheridan reset the IFF.

By Torque, Son of Keplar (Klingon) on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 6:17 pm:

I know what an IFF is and does, my point was I doubted that Sheridan reset the IFF.

(I should, at some point, have noted than if I have to write something vaguely technical in nature I try to word it so as many people as possible can understand it. It has been my experience that assuming everyone knows what you are talking about is not a good way to go about things. In this case while you and I may know what IFF is and how it works doesn't mean that everyone else will.)

The IFF system, since it is tied into the targeting system, can no doubt be updated by a base or ship in the middle of battle to list formally 'friendly' craft as being hostile. After all in a large battle you may want to tag one ship as the main target for your fighters.

And why would you doubt Sheridan reset the IFF? They had plenty of warning they were going to be attacked from the Churchill - long enough for all three captains to meet, talk, give speeches and make calls home to dad. All Sheridan has to do is say 'Susan, change the IFF system'.

By Torque, Son of Keplar (Klingon) on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 6:13 pm:

hey cyber, just to let you know, I haven't watched the commentaries or the behind the scenes stuff yet. Afterall, even if something is explained by JMS, it doesn't mean it's not a nit.

Well, we can also assume that none of the Narns on the station had military training and were civilians. Given that the losses the Narns took during the Centari war, and that almost all the Narn military was wiped out, chances are none of the Narn working security have had military training, and given how long the Narn have been working as security it is highly unlikely that they've had a chance to get full training yet.

As for the IFF thing, I doubt he'd do it because he's not sure just who is allies are. (though its more of a point in later episodes when he starts his own coup.)

- ...and I wonder if the JS bear was what really distracted Ivanova while she was flying One would think she'd be more disciplined to let burning cruiser distract her...


- When I made the comment about JMS and the commentaries, that was meant to be an explanation about why I bring stuff up in general, even if its explained in the commentaries. I wasn't meaning it to taken as relating specifically to the Narns and training.

- Oh, and while this isn't really nit related, I complement you on your technical summarization of stuff. If you don't mind me asking, what exactly do you do for a living? ...besides contemplating the mortality of your computer...

- Oh, and while this isn't really nit related, I complement you on your technical summarization of stuff.

Thank you, now I just need to remember to add a note so anyone I'm replying to knows why I tend to post such long technical posts.

If you don't mind me asking, what exactly do you do for a living? ...besides contemplating the mortality of your computer...

Well, you hit the nail on the head more or less.

My background includes a fair chunk of science - Biology, Chemistry, Sociology and Geography are all subjects I've formally studied. But as I used to have a friend who went on to do Physics at Kings College London I have a passing acquaintance with with that too. Add to this a hell of a lot of reading and a habit of picking up information from the strangest places, and I can usually understand most technical or science topics well enough to either explain 'Hollywood' science or pull it apart...normally the latter.

(oops, sorry double post)

- When I made the comment about JMS and the commentaries, that was meant to be an explanation about why I bring stuff up in general, even if its explained in the commentaries. I wasn't meaning it to taken as relating specifically to the Narns and training.

JMS's commentary is good, in that it is genuinely interesting for fans and isn't too dry - as is often the case when you have only one person doing the commentary.
The commentary's done by the cast though are hysterical - although I think there is only one per season they are probably the best of any DvD commentary I've heard. I put this down to them being three or four good friends just having a laugh, talking about other friends who were not there at the time, and best of all not feeling compelled to do the typical actor things of telling us the reasons behind acting in a particular way (unless it happens to be a funny story).
They can be a little bitter sweet though, as Richard Biggs (Franklin) is on one of the commentary's and by reckoning it must have been recorded shortly before his death. Andreas Katsulas (G'Kar) is frequently mentioned on all the commentary's in regards some tale or another, although I can't recall if he appears on any of them.

As for the IFF thing, I doubt he'd do it because he's not sure just who is allies are. (though its more of a point in later episodes when he starts his own coup.)

I think they'd have to reset their IFF system. Sheridan and the other two commanders know that an Earth Alliance task force is coming to attack them. They'd have to set their targeting computers to paint Earth ships that aren't based on B5, The Alexander or The Churchill as either hostile or at the very least unknown. I believe either a pilot or someone in C&C even refers to them as "enemy ships approaching" before any shots had been fired.

If some new ally did jump in during the battle it couldn't be to much for C&C to make changes on the fly. Even today soldiers, pilots, tank commanders & ships constantly receive electronic updates on locations of "hostile," "friendly" & "unknown" people, places and vehicles on the battlefield.