Zorro said:

'I have to say - Lungbarrow`s the best book I`ve ever read. It ties up all continuity perfecctly (even the mystery surrounding the Doctor`s origins.(Well, kind of...) And Susan`s too! And it is just brilliant!'

Well, I agree that it cleverly clears up a number of mysteries - the Doctor's connection with the Other; the supposedly pre-Hartnell faces seen in Brain of Morbius; and the Doctor's 'granddaughter'. And it's good to see Romana, two K-9s, Ace, Leela, etc, again. And I love Gallifrey-based stories. And there was all the poignancy of this being the last pre-regeneration McCoy story. And Marc Platt is a great writer, Ghostlight was the BEST.

But...

Lungbarrow is STILL rubbish!!!

I mean, most of the book consists of the Doctor wandering around this buried house being accused of murder by unpleasant relatives and being chased by oversized furniture!!

I WANTED to love this book. I spent months trying to get my hands on it. And it was so boring I couldn't be bothered to finish it.

By the way...DOES it clear up all continuity perfectly? What about the revamped TARDIS, or the 'half-human' business?

The revamped TARDIS is explained - the Doctor has to do something terribly complicated to it (I can`t remember what) to compress its dimensions or something like that. At the end, the Doctor makes a coment about the TARDIS now looking great, or something to that effect, implying that it is the one we saw in the TV Movie.

Also, the half-human thing would now appear to be applicable to the Other and the memories that the Doctor experienced in the TV Movie were those of the Other. The fact that the Other was half-human ensures that some of the mystery is retained, which can only be a good thing.

And fair enough if you found this book boring - I still liked it, although I admit that my memories of it are fonder than they were at the actual time of reading.

Thanks, Zorro - I tried flicking through to find the interesting bits, but thought I might have missed some (I will reread it properly one day, honest). Does it say why the Other was half-human? Or how, exactly, the Other managed to throw himelf into the Loom - which consisted of the Lungbarrow family's genetic material - and come out as the Doctor, with some human physical characteristics?

Not that I'd blame the book if it fails to explain all the telemovie's insanities...

It doesn`t say WHY the Other`s half-human, but it DOES explain how he managed to get into the Loom (kind of), on pages 274 and 275. I think the reason that the Doctor came out with the human characteristics is because of the Other being half-human - they are the same person, after all.

I'm finally going to get my hands on this!

(Though not without spending a tad too much money for my liking. Investment for the future is how I'm trying to think of it....)

And it's pretty good, (a hundred pages in), very Mervyn Peaky- I'll post a fuller review once I've finished it.

Still no review...obviously you discovered how boring it is...

Na, it's just a rather unusual style- you'd hate Gormenghast too.

Very good, IMHO, Not brilliant but does a very good job of rounding off the 7th Doctor's era.

I don't hate Gormenghast! I just...um...haven't got round to finishing it...yet.

The splendid Emily is in a minority of at least two, as at the time of its publication, I found Lungbarrow to be comprehensively codswallop. It has no heart, no soul, and is filled with garbled prose and pointless tangles of foolish "ideas".
Platt's work is supposedly "complex". However, whilst "complexity" can be a bi-product of a worthy or worthless script or novel, it's actually simplistic, predictable and downright thick of Platt to paste it over his hollow works, obviously attempting to make them appear substantial. Platt's work has never been complicated...merely transparent.

Whilst I found 'Time's Curcible' to be kinda unreadable at parts, I found 'Lungbarrow' at least compelling and highly readable, despite the expectant 'Marc Platt' factor.

Ah, at last - a person of taste and discernment (Emeric, that is. Not Luke, obviously ;) Though naturally I have to disagree when it comes to Ghostlight. How many times have you seen it? Like Warriors' Gate, it _appears_ to be a pile of worthless, boring gibberish at first, but it just gets better and better with every rewatching, till you realise its utter brilliance by about your sixth time. (Hmm...I suppose I should consider applying that to his books as well, but I won't.)

I have seen Ghostlight five or six times, with very long periods between each viewing. Still don't like it. Maybe I should watch it six times in one session, as I'd like to like it!

Watch it late at night, in the dark, curtains closed, blanket drawn up around your neck and a decanter of Tia Maria within reach.

When I first watched 'Warrior's Gate', I saw it in quick succession after 'Full Circle' and 'State of Decay' (the E-Space box-set) and really thought that compared to Marshmen rising out of the swamps, it was utter pants. But now, 'Warrior's Gate' is a favourite. I suppose if you think of all the unique things about a story, you grow to appreciate its originality.

Thanks for your words, PJW. I'll give it a try (though with Baileys rather than Tia Maria!).

Well, I'm not sure this was worth $60 or not, but at least I'll get my money back on eBay.

Yes, it did explain a lot, although I haven't seen anything that tells me the Other is supposed to be half-human. Is he even mentioned in the series? (All I remember is Rassilon and Omega, but then I still haven't seen all the episodes.) In fact, I don't think Looms or Gallifreyan sterility are even mentioned in the series; they seem to be book-only concepts.

I actually did like this story, even if it did take half the book for the Doctor and Chris to meet anyone else in the House. The idea of being buried alive for such a long-lived species is truly horrifying and all those cousins clinging to the inside of the well in the Doctor's room made me cringe. Innocet was uncharacteristicly self-sacrificing though compared to the rest of the Lungbarrow Loom products. She and Quences were the only family members with any redeeming features (and Quences is questionable--how did he end up in Badger anyway?).

Why didn't Rynde and Glospin take off in the TARDIS as soon as they got inside? Instead they waste time throwing out clothes and books for the cousins to paw through.

Why didn't Redred's superior go looking for him when he didn't show up to work the next day? What about Redred's Family? Not interested either? Gallifrey could use a few family values.

So the Other manages to survive going through the Loom Cascade (or whatever), only to pop out Lungbarrow's Loom millenia later? Hell of a processing time.

Now I was under the impression that not every Gallifreyan is a Time Lord, but all the cousins seem able to regenerate. Is there a difference between being born to a Loom and being a TL?

Well that's the last of McCoy NA's. All I've got left to go are the BBC ones. Oh.... good :-/

Yes it is a bit dull but it ties up the major points most people would be moaning about if they were left hanging. It even gives a nod as to where The Other comes from and thus the major talking point in the following movie with the Pertwee logo.

The setting is 'Ghost Light' taken to a Gormenghast extreme although I thought the original GL proposal was intended to be what appeared in this book. It's a shame it wasn't as it really required visuals to take attention from the slow pace of the scenes in the house.

Perhaps it wasn't the best of books on which to end the 7th Doctor's reign but the complexity of the story, the issues it explores and the fanboy bits in it sum up what was a hugely important and frequently brilliant series of books which had a huge impact on fandom.

What a kind way of looking at Lungbarrow. But face facts: It's boring, IT'S BORING, IT'S SO ******* BORING!!! And for the last ever Virgin McCoy, that's just not forgiveable.

I've known Emily for quite a few years and that's the first time I've ever seen or heard her use that type of language - even when discussing Mick Lewis!

The book seemed to suffer from having a specified set of items to explain and then trying to hang a story around them. Small wonder that the fit was loose at times and dragged in places.

For those who couldn't locate a copy it's legally available for free at http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/doctorwho/ebooks/

I thought she used that sort of language all the time? Maybe it's just when I'm around...

Well naturally, Daniel, you do tend to bring out the inner blasphemer in a girl. Still, I'm surprised to realise I've been so clean-mouthed in Graham's presence (the Mick Lewis thing is perfectly explicable, though, given that indeciferable choking noises are about the only thing that can emanate from my lips when THAT name comes up).

Planet of Fire also suffered from having to hang a story round a specified set of items, but at least it managed to have fun while doing so. God, even The Ancestor Cell, with its far-more-ghastly-than-Lungbarrow agenda, managed not to be nearly as tedious.

Emily, you have always been a complete lady in my presence (curses!) apart from when I mention football (and Peter Davison is a fan of my team so nyah ). The only reason TAC was so dull is because PA and SC ripped off the concept for LM (or so he claimed) and left out the core of the story - the tragedy of what Romana became.

Given that 'Lungbarrow' had to wrap up 33 years and TAC 4 years we can forgive 'Lungbarrow' its excesses. Read Marc Platt's notes at the link I gave above ehich are quite interesting. Daniel, any chance of you doing the same for your books or are you busy giving some other companions a dose of clap?

Alas, BBCi haven't shown any interest in putting my old Virgin novels online.

As for giving companions the clap, I have my eyes on Rose Tyler...

You realise if Rose gets the clap, the Doc probably will too? There's some very ominous nonsense Eccleston is coming out with about having two hearts to break...

Graham - why should I give a toss if that cricket-obsessed scarf-murderer supports your so-called team?

OK, I'll admit Lungbarrow had a lot of continuity to tie up if you admit it did so pretty badly.

Don't you find that Mr Eccleston's 'two hearts to break' is a far more eloquent way of putting it than Mr Terrance Dicks' question 'what else has he got two of?'

It occurs to me that I really slag off Lungbarrow in my last DWM article. On the plus side, it's Russell T. Davies who's revived Doctor Who not Marc Platt, so that shouldn't damage my chances too much. Rose's days are numbered!

Moderator's Note: Moved from 'New Series: Season Six: The Almost People' section:

Daniel: I despise the books for many reasons, one of which is the misogyny behind the Looms - Nineties fanboys couldn't bear anything having the touch of a woman!

Lolita: Nineties fanboys hated the looms because they couldn't bear the idea of a Doctor who wasn't 100% conventionally heterosexual.

Thanks, Kate. It was Liz Barr that pointed out to me the misogyny behind the idea of the looms.

Also, I'm not entirely sure why you raised this point here, in a section which has nothing to do with the books, and where neither Daniel nor anyone else has mentioned them.

Who is Liz Barr and why would she find misogynistic intent in an idea that's supposed to demonstrate how the Time Lords became such a sterile and patriarchal society? Does she also locate this misogyny in the poetry of William Blake, from whence the idea of the looms was half-inched?

Let me struggle personfully to bring this back on topic: your argument, I would infer, is that the 'gangers aren't really people because they are Not Of Woman Born. It strikes me that in a science fiction such as Doctor Who this insistence that reproduction by human/mammal/heterosexual "norms" is far more offensive than the non-existent misogyny you attribute to the process by which the gangers are created.

But it does tie in to the common theme in Doctor Who that "monsters" are created or artificial species: cyborgs like the Daleks and Cybermen, clones like the Sontarans, false versions of organic creatures like the Autons and Yeti. Even the Ice Warriors are augmented by their own technology. There is a gothic fear of the "unnatural" at the heart of all these monsters. (Note the Frankenstein-type lightning storm that brings the 'gangers to life and cf 'Daleks in Manhattan'.)

What was interesting about the looms - apart from the Blakeian/Lynchian mythological texture they brought to the series - was that they made the Doctor just as much of an artificial being, which not only provided an interesting polymorphous contrast with/similarity to his enemies.

The two-parter that's just finished is probably too muddled to add anything to the debate here. It feels like someone regurgitating a whole lot of Doctor Who they remember from when they were a kid without really understanding it or engaging with it. (Though Graham is hardly the worst offender here, see also 'The Satan Pit', and also everything Chris Chibnall has ever written.)

Rather like the revival of the 'I am a better rubber-headed alien than you' archetype - which I'd argue derives from Westerns - it's an idea that's raised because it's dimly remembered but not thought.

Sorry, Kate. I've very sensitive to perceived sexism and misogyny since an incident at school not long ago.

It feels like someone regurgitating a whole lot of Doctor Who they remember from when they were a kid without really understanding it ... see also 'The Satan Pit'

I enjoyed Satan Pit, particularly for the emphasis on the Doctor-Rose relationship and the brief exploration of god(s). I thought it was one of the really good two-parters.

As for the slightly confusing Loom discussion, I hated the Looms because they were so artificial and out-of-the-blue, not because I cared about the Doctor's sexuality.

The gangers are a bit different to clones and other created things. They have no intelligence of their own they're just avatars. A robot or close does have it's own 'mind' the gangers just ended up with the memories of their drivers through an accident.

I mentioned the EU on part 1 of this episode so I guess that's why it's come up here. I have never delved that far into it so I have no idea what the Looms are lol.

That said nineties fan boys possibly had some right to complain about the doc suddenly being slightly gay or sexual at all (assuming that's what you meant) because he was until the new series very much an asexual being. Ok yes he had a grand daughter but he'd clearly been there and done that. Even RTD kept him like that at first. Actually it's only the Moff who's running with the idea of him suddenly being casanova lol.

I despise the books for many reasons, one of which is the misogyny behind the Looms - Nineties fanboys couldn't bear anything having the touch of a woman!

I don't think it's misogyny per se - more, as the Completely Useless Encyclopedia put it, 'fanboys could no longer identify with their hero if he got to shag a girl, because none of them ever would.'

Nineties fanboys hated the looms because they couldn't bear the idea of a Doctor who wasn't 100% conventionally heterosexual.

Judging by the screams of outrage following the telemovie, a LOT of fanboys did NOT have this particular problem.

It strikes me that in a science fiction such as Doctor Who this insistence that reproduction by human/mammal/heterosexual "norms" is far more offensive

Hmm, good point.

Especially as Who goes on to avoid reproduction by human/mammal/heterosexual 'norms' like the plague.

Until now.

But it does tie in to the common theme in Doctor Who that "monsters" are created or artificial species: cyborgs like the Daleks and Cybermen, clones like the Sontarans, false versions of organic creatures like the Autons and Yeti. Even the Ice Warriors are augmented by their own technology. There is a gothic fear of the "unnatural" at the heart of all these monsters. (Note the Frankenstein-type lightning storm that brings the 'gangers to life and cf 'Daleks in Manhattan'.)

What was interesting about the looms - apart from the Blakeian/Lynchian mythological texture they brought to the series - was that they made the Doctor just as much of an artificial being

Ooh. Yes!

Though no doubt you're over-analysing and really all the poor writers wanted to do (bar Lance Parkin, with his obsession with the Doctor's marital relations) is make it perfectly clear that our Doctor has NEVER engaged in things of a disgusting (i.e. sexual) nature. Or has been born in a disgusting biological manner. Or has ever been one of those ghastly rug-rat things. Which is perfectly in keeping with everything we saw of his first seven lives on TV. (Give or take the deeply unfortunate fact that the VERY FIRST THING we EVER learn about our Doc is that he's a grandfather.)

I've very sensitive to perceived sexism and misogyny since an incident at school not long ago.

One certainly SHOULD keep a very sharp eye out for sexism, in life AND in Who.

I enjoyed Satan Pit, particularly for the emphasis on the Doctor-Rose relationship and the brief exploration of god(s). I thought it was one of the really good two-parters.

If only both things hadn't been so schizophrenic. The Doc was snubbing Rose's suggestion of a flat-share one minute and declaring his undying love the next. And Matt Jones seemed singularly incapable of distinguishing between 'belief' and 'religious faith' - VERY unfortunate when you're god-bothering.

As for the slightly confusing Loom discussion, I hated the Looms because they were so artificial and out-of-the-blue, not because I cared about the Doctor's sexuality.

Well, they weren't entirely out-of-the-blue. The Doc HAD just spent 950 years not mentioning his parents, after all.

Personally I yearned to embrace the Looms - asexuality being right up there with planet-saving on my personal list of Traits The Doctor Has Got To Have. Unfortunately they were so blatantly a rubbish idea that I couldn't manage it. Mercifully the new series has made me a LOT more relaxed about such matters.

he was until the new series very much an asexual being...Even RTD kept him like that at first. Actually it's only the Moff who's running with the idea of him suddenly being casanova lol.

Oh, nonsense! RTG had Eccy falling in love with Rose during his very first episode and practically pollinating with Jabe in his very second episode. And Tennant was even WORSE! Matt is actually blissfully innocent about sexual matters in comparison with his two predecessors...

The Doc HAD just spent 950 years not mentioning his parents, after all.

But he did mention liking trains as a boy.

I took that as some sort of stupid - sorry, I mean incomprehensibly alien - attempt at a joke. I can just about cope with Gallifreyan kiddies staring into the Untempered Schism and being driven mad, but Gallifreyan kiddies wanting to drive steam trains...? I think not. They wouldn't know what a steam train IS. (And how early did the Doc's - sorry, Little Thete's - Earth-obsession BEGIN, anyway?)

Wormhole would SO not fit into that cradle from A Good Man Goes To War...

Platt in DWM: 'In Lungbarrow, the Doctor suggests that Rassilon is a committee of people - a think tank producing ideas for which he took the credit!' - nice idea, though End of Time Part II pretty much definitively proves that Rassilon isn't the Committee type. What with vaporising anyone on the High Council who ventures a disagreement.

'Having taken the best elements of Lungbarrow and turned them into Ghost Light' - he did?! What have they got in common except a creepy house?

'How would you cope if you were a member of the Doctor's family? Can you imagine what it would be like? It would just be so embarrassing!' - er...WHY? It would be the greatest joy and honour of one's pitiful existence and anyway, Susan, River, Amy, Rory and Jenny coped just FINE.

'And of course he does this dreadful thing to them - trapping them underground for 500 years' - THE DOCTOR did that?!

I mean, not that I'd BLAME him...

'The Doctor's adventures should always be fun. Doctor Who shouldn't lose sight of its entertainment roots. That's why I included characters like Cousin Luton in Lungbarrow. He was stuck up a chimney, regenerating over and over again! The poor creature used up all his regenerations in a fortnight!' - ha ha ha! Yes, what hilarious fun!

You seem a bit ridiculously hostile to Marc Platt, Emily, rip[ping apart everything he says.

Platt is at least a writer with some vision and original ideas, unlike the cliche-minded crew of the new series. The looms were a great idea which made an alien people actually alien! The story also made the Doctor mysterious instead of the dull, all to human bore he became during the Tom Baker era with all the nonsense about his past (''born under the sign of crossed computers'', ''Theta! Theta Sigma!'' etc. Utter tripe).

I can never understand why most DW fans actually want the show to be rubbish, cliche-ridden, unimaginative and infantile, and also having a protagonist who is meant to be an alien yet doesn't come from an alien culture and reproduces in a very human way.

Give me 'Lungbarrow' over the puerile rubbish that passes for great stories in the new series.

You seem a bit ridiculously hostile to Marc Platt, Emily, rip[ping apart everything he says.

It's my Nitcentrally DUTY to rip apart everything he says.

Platt is at least a writer with some vision and original ideas

True. And when said vision and ideas work they're fantastic - like Ghost Light and Spare Parts. It's just a shame that when they DON'T work - which, let's face it, is most of the time - they're SERIOUSLY godawful.

unlike the cliche-minded crew of the new series

The New Who is the greatest joy and happiness known to humanity!

Though I'll admit I'd be seriously interested to see where Platt was going with HIS Rise of the Cybermen/Age of Steel slot. It would certainly have been more ORIGINAL than what we got, though I have no reason to doubt the Production Team's wisdom in sacking him.

The looms were a great idea which made an alien people actually alien!

Look, I'm DESPERATE for the Doctor not to have sex, parents and suchlike but I STILL have problems with those Looms.

The story also made the Doctor mysterious instead of the dull, all to human bore he became during the Tom Baker era with all the nonsense about his past

Tom Baker was MARVELLOUSLY, goggle-eyedly alien and NEVER EVER boring.

And honestly, the mystery of the Doctor should arise naturally from his character, not be some mythical reincarnation nonsense shoe-horned in.

(''born under the sign of crossed computers'', ''Theta! Theta Sigma!'' etc. Utter tripe).

OK, I have to admit they make we wince a little. But the Doctor must have had SOME sort of nickname before he got his doctorate.

I can never understand why most DW fans actually want the show to be rubbish, cliche-ridden, unimaginative and infantile

We don't.

and also having a protagonist who is meant to be an alien yet doesn't come from an alien culture and reproduces in a very human way.

When does the Doctor reproduce in a very human way?

I just feel like I should APOLOGISE to Lungbarrow or something.

Because however godawful its vision of the Doctor's childhood is, it's a HELL of a lot better than what we get on-screen in Listen.

So. 96% chance of dying on collecting-Master's-ashes-from-the-Daleks mission - yet NO Confession Dial? Why the hell NOT? Sure, he could hardly send it to THE MASTER, but Romana's standing RIGHT THERE!

Bookwyrm:

'The House of Lungbarrow itself, with its glowing trees, vast, empty galleries, robotic servants, moving walkways and things caught just out of the corner of your eye - not to mention a line about "chipping at a mountain with a dry straw" - is so very Heaven Sent that it hurts' - I never thought of that, probably because Lungbarrow is so •••• boring and Heaven Sent...isn't.

'Andred has never heard of [his cousin Redred] and is seemingly unaware that someone from his House has been missing for what turns out to be an inordinately long time. How can this be so?' - because Andred's a moron?

'A barrow is a burial place for ancient king, but to append the prefix "lung-" to it is astonishing. A breathing mausoleum, a place of death, even as it lives' - sadly the word 'Lungbarrow' always makes me so unhappy that I didn't consider what a great word it is.

'There were hints that the Other himself was not from Gallifrey' - brilliant foreshadowing of Timeless Children nonsense! - 'As a result of the then-recent telemovie's assertion that the Doctor was half-human' - Oh, OK, maybe not, then - 'We're also told that the Doctor could be Leela and Andred's son' - *frantically checks* - oh. 'Just name him after me' plus the whole 'a father from Gallifrey and a mother of Earth stock' thing? Mercifully inconclusive given that people never DO name their kid 'Doctor' even when he thinks they should (Closing Time) or they SAY they did (Journey's End).

'Bizarre and contradictory as this is, in a way it's slightly heart-warming: for nearly 60 books, the NA authors had been making up increasingly inventive excuses for continuity errors of the past. Suddenly and unexpectedly, they now had to start making them up for continuity errors of the future - BLESS!

'The Doctor accidentally damages a table and apologises to it. Throughout McCoy's tenure, he kept doing silly things in this vein - raising his hat to chickens, and so forth. Except, in this instance, we know that the table might just be sentient so it not only makes perfect sense in this context, it retroactively makes sense of his apparently ludicrous behaviour throughout' - THIS is why I paid a fortune for Bookwyrm! So someone could point out all the clever stuff I was too bored to notice...

Credit where it's due - Lungbarrow foresaw that Time Lords COULD regenerate back into their old faces if they felt like it. COME ON RTG YOU KNOW IT'S TIME FOR OUR CURATOR...