I can hardly deny that Nazis winning WWII is not an original plot, but I didn't find Exodus old or tired - it's in my top 10 NAs, at least. For some reason Nazi stories, like vampire ones, always seem to work for Doctor Who (you Vampire Science-haters keep your mouths shut at this point) - Lance Parkin's Just War is very different from, and even better than, Exodus.

I had a retroactive problem with Exodus. The end makes a big deal about the Timewyrm saving the life of one of the Nazis. Then, when he shows up in the last book, he's promptly killed off. What was the point of that?

My observation is from the point of a general SF fan, not just a Who fan. The Nazi alternate universe plot is very overused there.

I think what makes Exodus work is clear, crisp writing that doesn't get bogged down in its own cleverness and the pace at which the whole book happens.

I think I'm going to have to re-read it.

Does Hemmings really die in Revelation? I'm sure he pops up in Happy Endings. Paul Cornell really should stop using his own rather unique definition of death.

Mike, I wouldn't bother rereading it in a hurry. Whilst I love Exodus, I have to admit that if you're in the wrong mood it can feel a little repetitive - the Doctor pretending to be a Nazi in 50s alternative Britain, and then the Doctor pretending to be a Nazi in 1940 (?) Germany.

Hemmings gets his head cut off in Revelation. Saul the talking church keeps the head alive for a short while, but the author makes a pretty big deal about the head dying. Now, normally I would say that's would be finito for Hemmings, but this is science fiction we're talking about. The Hemmings in "Happy Endings" could have been a clone, from an alternate-alternate universe, etc., etc.

This is one of the few novels I've read, and yeah, the 'Nazi's win the war' has had a long history and is pretty tired, now. But I read this in terms of what kind of television show it could have been. The sets would have been fairly inexpensive, for that matter the show would have been fairly inexpensive. I always felt this was an episode that could've been. As far as television stands, this would have made an excellent story for the show. The bit of the Doctor passing himself off as an SS official just by shouting orders as he goes along was classic Dr Who.

I remember reading this and being so surprised at who Dr Kreigslieter was, and thinking 'cool, this New Adventures might be alright after all'.

I think what was really gripping about it was
the fact that they imagine what the result of
a botched regeneration might look like.

I feel very tempted to mention that we've already seen the result of a botched regeneration - Colin Baker. But I won't.

Yes, it's fascinating to think about what happens when regeneration goes wrong. I wonder if there's a locked hospital somewhere on Gallifrey containing dozens of hideously deformed victims of regenerative accidents - another dirty little Time Lord secret? Though I suppose what with the sisterhood's elixir of life, plus all that machinery of the type Mawdryn and co stole from them, Time Lords on Gallifrey should be able to fix anything that goes wrong. And, given their contempt for life, if something happened they couldn't fix, they'd just link the victim up to the Matrix and then have them put down.

There's some great stuff about botched regenerations in the novelisation of 'Twin Dilemma' - don't be put off by the fact that this story wasn't particularly good on the telly (an understatement, yes I know), Saward fills the novel with some marvellous Douglas Adams-styled anecdotes.

I'm sorry, but even the prospect of Douglas Adams-style anecdotes wouldn't induce me to touch this book with a barge-pole.

You're a very wise woman, probably.

Gee, thanks. You know, I just realised today with a feeling of absolute horror that I _did_ once try the novelisation of Twin Dilemma. It's got that scene with the cat and the square root of, um, something, hasn't it? I must have given up very soon, because I remember nothing else.

The square root of minus 3, if I remember rightly.

Your loss, Em.

Let's face it, even if you'd all got me convinced that this was the greatest book in the history of the planet, I don't think I could face grubbing around in the children's section of libraries to find it. I've been praising non-existent deities that - unlike the Virgins, and for no discernable reason - librarians have unanimously decided that BBC Doctor Who books belong in the adult (or at the very worst, the Young Adult) section.

I see I wasn't the only one who hated the novellization of the Twin Dilemma because of those irritating anecdotes! What the heck was Eric Saward thinking when he was writing this book, every time he inserted one of those anecdotes, the story came to a screeching halt!

I don't know what possessed Mr. Saward to do this. He didn't do this in his novelization of The Visitation. What gives!?

I suppose he thought the story was so bad that he could afford to experiment, as nothing could make it worse?

Blurb: 'The Doctor faces the most terrible dilemma he has ever known...' - he does? When?

What on Earth are our Nazi Overlords doing, putting on a Festival of Britain?

'The Doctor scowled at the photograph. "I never trusted those Windsors!"' - he didn't?! Well, he's done a good imitation of trusting 'em, the grovelling sycophant. Tea and scones with Liz Two...

The Doctor thinks the Meddling Monk might be responsible for the, well, meddling? I don't see being a King Harold fan as particularly compatible with being a Nazi, myself.

Why is London bombed to smithereens if the Nazis swept over Britain with virtually no resistance and all the aerial bombing was concentrated on the airfields?

Ace can snatch up someone's fallen revolver in the pitch dark?

Paint just falls off the TARDIS? Since when? (Post-Happiness Patrol, obviously.)

God, Ace is slow off the mark about the bugging.

'I like them big, blonde and bouncy' - how the hell does the Doctor know so much about Nazis' sexual tastes? Even the New Who sex-mad Doctors aren't this clued-up - they'd be more likely to start waffling about texting and scones...Plus, the Doctor HAD just introduced Ace as his niece!

Ah, the innocent days of Exodus' 1991 publication. Waterboarding was a clear sign of being an evil Nazi rather than, say, an American...

Why the HELL didn't the Reichsinspektor-General's pass have a PHOTO on it?

'He's got the cheek of the devil - sometimes I think he is the devil' - I'm sorry, WHAT? ACE thinks THE DOCTOR is the devil????????

Which bit of THE NAZIS ARE ON THEIR WAY are these people somehow not grasping, as they stand around the cafe arguing?

'She had decided, quite calmly, that her best chance was to provoke him into killing her' - yeah, cos it's not like Ace has ever ESCAPED when captured, is it? It's not as if the Doc's free and ready for a rescue mission...

Ace has no key to the TARDIS? The Doctor really was a GIT in those days, wasn't he? Have we seen ANY Old Who Companion bar Susan with their own key?

Bit thick of the Doc just to assume there's no bug on the balcony or Hemmings' cell.

Ace kills several men (OK...Nazis) without her or the Doc batting an eyelid.

The Doc has a pot of cream labelled - in Old High Gallifreyan! - 'Dr Solon's Special Morbius Lotion. Guaranteed to Contain Genuine Elixir of Life. Manufactured Under Licence by the Sisterhood of Karn' - is ANY of this REMOTELY plausible?

For heaven's sake, how many times has the Doc saved Hitler's life? And this time he doesn't even say 'Believe me, it was an accident...'

The Doctor had an 'old nurse'?!

'You've got all this influence with Adolf - can't you stop it?' - which part of PUTTING HISTORY BACK ON TRACK is Ace somehow just not grasping?

Ace is SHOCKED to discover that Nazis...don't let Jews sit on park benches!!!! The FIENDS!

The War Chief says he and the Doc 'met once, long ago and far away' - but surely as they recognised each other in War Games, they'd met before?

'A Gallifreyan Army Knife of the kind issued to the Capitol Guard. On it was engraved: "Property of Castellan Spandrell."' - Not finding THAT particularly plausible either.

There were several War Lords? I thought there was only just the one?

'Once they had him in their hands, the Time Lords had put him on trial for a wide variety of real and imagined crimes' - did I miss something, or was the Doc actually put on trial for TWO crimes - TARDIS-stealing and interference - both of which he was guilty-as-hell of?

'There was never any nonsense about justice in a Time Lord trial' - now THAT I can agree with.

'Chickens, one or two cats, the odd lamb' - the Who books started their oochie-murdering traditions even earlier than I'd thought...

Ace has never heard of Dresden?

Great, now the TARDIS just turns up like a dawg when the Doctor whistles. Funny he never thought to whistle on the fifty trillion previous occasions a TARDIS turning up would have been seriously handy.

If history's drastically altered and didn't produce Ace in the first place, she'd disappear the moment she left the TARDIS? Since when? (And in which case, wouldn't it be more sensible for her to stay in said TARDIS while the Doctor checked things out?)

No one tries to rape Ace?! I owe Terrance Dicks an apology. All these years I've been thinking that the Companion nearly gets raped in EVERY SINGLE ONE of his Who novels. (Of course, she DOES do an awful lot of screaming and fainting and nearly being virgin-sacrificed and jumping like a terrified kangaroo and suchlike.)

I'm sorry, I just keep thinking about Who's GOOD Hitler story. Y'know...the one with the regeneration, the cupboard, and the gay gypsy Bar Mitzvah for the disabled...

Blurb: 'The Doctor faces the most terrible dilemma he has ever known...' - he does? When?

When he has to decide between preserving the web of time and defeating Hitler.

What on Earth are our Nazi Overlords doing, putting on a Festival of Britain?

The Anglo-Same came from fine German stock, in Hitler's twisted mind, so they'd want us to accept our destiny as part of the master race, which means a little flattery.

Why is London bombed to smithereens if the Nazis swept over Britain with virtually no resistance

The German victory celebrations got out of hand?

The Doc has a pot of cream labelled - in Old High Gallifreyan! - 'Dr Solon's Special Morbius Lotion. Guaranteed to Contain Genuine Elixir of Life. Manufactured Under Licence by the Sisterhood of Karn' - is ANY of this REMOTELY plausible?

Only if the Doctor labelled it himself, in a joking mood.

surely as they recognised each other in War Games, they'd met before?

They could have just recognised each other from photos.

Funny he never thought to whistle on the fifty trillion previous occasions a TARDIS turning up would have been seriously handy.

He's got a symbiotic link with her; he can tell when she's feeling obliging, and when she'd ignore him.

Blurb: 'The Doctor faces the most terrible dilemma he has ever known...' - he does? When?

When he has to decide between preserving the web of time and defeating Hitler.

You'd THINK that would be a terrible dilemma, wouldn't you? He doesn't seem remotely dilemma-y about it, though. Well, there's a bit of moaning at the end, but that's about it.

Only if the Doctor labelled it himself, in a joking mood.

I suppose if he got really, really drunk it might have seemed funny...

They could have just recognised each other from photos.

The Academy forgot to warn anyone about DALEKS, they'd hardly be handing out photos of renegades (especially pointless given the existence of regeneration...).

He's got a symbiotic link with her; he can tell when she's feeling obliging, and when she'd ignore him.

Don't tell me Sexy would have IGNORED him if he was in mortal peril!

I suppose if he got really, really drunk it might have seemed funny...

Well, it's have to be Four, Five, Six, or Seven. Which of that lot is most likely to get deeply drunk?


they'd hardly be handing out photos of renegades (especially pointless given the existence of regeneration...).

The Gallifreyan media might though, to fill up the gaps when there's no colourful ritual to discuss. I can imagine a Gallifreyan tabloid, with fuzzy pictures of all the renegades, acquired by underhand mean: "Exclusive new Doctor pictures inside. Read all about it."

Naturally, they'd frame the picture to make it look like the Doctor is about to grope Victoria when he was actually just reaching for his tea.

Don't tell me Sexy would have IGNORED him if he was in mortal peril!

How often is in the kind of mortal peril from which he can't save himself, but the Tardis? She could materialise between him and a firing squad, but the Doctor doesn't need her help to get out of that situation, not after all the practice he's had.

Looking at the regenerations, the only one that could have been prevented if the Tardis came when called is Four to Five. Materialise in mid-air under the Doctor, and drop him into the swimming pool. We've no idea about Eight, but Seven wouldn't have had time enough to whistle, and the others are even harder cases.

Taking that as typical, almost all the time when the Doctor is in mortal peril, there's nothing the Tardis can do about it.

Well, it's have to be Four, Five, Six, or Seven. Which of that lot is most likely to get deeply drunk?

I'm instinctively thinking 'Four', but I suspect I'm getting him muddled up with Tom Baker the human. But then...it probably WOULD be Four - Five's too dull to have a good booze up, if Six ever got drunk he'd've shoved the whole UNIVERSE in an acid bath, and Seven can, according to some NA or other, metabolise alcohol so he never gets drunk.

The Gallifreyan media might though, to fill up the gaps when there's no colourful ritual to discuss. I can imagine a Gallifreyan tabloid, with fuzzy pictures of all the renegades, acquired by underhand mean: "Exclusive new Doctor pictures inside. Read all about it."

I have the horrible feeling that Gallifrey is too repressed even to produce a rubbish tabloid. After all, Runcible's in the media AND an old classmate of the Doc's, and all HE knew was that there was a mild scandal over Hartnell getting expelled or something.

How often is in the kind of mortal peril from which he can't save himself, but the Tardis? She could materialise between him and a firing squad, but the Doctor doesn't need her help to get out of that situation, not after all the practice he's had.

The HELL he doesn't! It was sheer blind luck on those several War Games occasions, and as for Androzani...I only wish the TARDIS had, like myself, had to spend an ENTIRE WEEK thinking my Doc had got himself KILLED. (Luckily it was only Davison...) Plus there are a million other occasions when she could have just materialised around him, a la Rose in Parting of the Ways, to keep him safe from the maniac with the gun/sword (once said maniac stopped explaining his plans and started raising said gun/sword, obviously. Though come to think of it, Sexy DOES get inside people's heads...could she be tweaking their grey matter to ensure that they always decide to kill the Doctor slowly instead?).

Looking at the regenerations, the only one that could have been prevented if the Tardis came when called is Four to Five. Materialise in mid-air under the Doctor, and drop him into the swimming pool. We've no idea about Eight, but Seven wouldn't have had time enough to whistle, and the others are even harder cases.

In which case, the TARDIS shouldn't have waited to be degradingly summoned like a dawg, she should have refused to go anywhere NEAR that stupid Metabelis, she should have refused to let McCoy out the DOOR till he'd checked the scanner, she should have told the Doctor to go to hell when he started messing around with bypasses and Logopolis in order to change HER (perfect!) shape, she should have whisked Wilf away before any noble self-sacrifice could take place...

And I bet if she HAD materialised round Troughton at the last minute those Time Lords wouldn't have seen it coming. They forgot to lock his cell door, for heaven's sake.

They didn't forget. They probably did it to trap Jamie and Zoe.

It was sheer blind luck on those several War Games occasions

Not blind luck, skill. It just amuses the Doctor to make it look like blind luck, and so keep his opponents underestimating him.

..could she be tweaking their grey matter to ensure that they always decide to kill the Doctor slowly instead?

Quite possibly, or the Doctor might do that himself. He's not as blatant with the hypnotism as the Master, but he does know how to influence people.

she should have refused to go anywhere NEAR that stupid Metabelis

She did, until the time was right. Three didn't get there at the first attempt. No doubt, the Tardis had a good reason for taking him there. It won't have been just because she was bored of hanging round Unit.

Seven wanted to die, judging by the Virgin NAs, and none of the Doctors would like it if the Tardis kept rescuing him. It'd make his life too boring.

They didn't forget. They probably did it to trap Jamie and Zoe.

They already HAD Jamie and Zoe, and were going to wipe their memories anyway - they didn't need an 'attempting to escape' excuse for THAT.

It was sheer blind luck on those several War Games occasions

Not blind luck, skill.

Look, I have my suspicions that Troughton is, on occasion, as cunning a manipulator as McCoy (in fact, MORE cunning as McCoy practically has 'Look at me, I'm a cunning manipulator' tattooed across his forehead) and all this 'Oh my giddy aunt!' stuff is put on, but on THIS occasion he was pretty bloody helpless. (As far as I remember, admittedly having failed to watch War Games for a very long time...)

He's not as blatant with the hypnotism as the Master, but he does know how to influence people.

McCoy, definitely, but I'm not so sure about the rest of 'em.

she should have refused to go anywhere NEAR that stupid Metabelis

She did, until the time was right.

The time is NEVER right to get a Doctor killed! (Well, unless it's the Sixth Doctor, obviously.)

No doubt, the Tardis had a good reason for taking him there. It won't have been just because she was bored of hanging round Unit.

I bet it WAS because she was bored of hanging round UNIT! Can't you just PICTURE her whinging about it the way Martha was in Blink? ('He promised me the universe and I'm stuck working in this paramilitary organisation...') I mean, all these years Sexy must have been thinking 'It's not his fault we're stuck on Earth, as soon as I'm working again we'll be making up for lost time and whizzing round every planet in the universe'...only to discover that Pertwee found it impossible to cut his ties to his UNIT Family.)

and none of the Doctors would like it if the Tardis kept rescuing him. It'd make his life too boring.

Yeah, but what about how boring the TARDIS's life would be when he gets himself killed? Even leaving aside Axis of Insanity's claim that all TARDISes go to the TARDIS graveyard when their Time Lord dies.

but on THIS occasion he was pretty bloody helpless

Oh, ye of little faith ... The Doctor is never helpless; he just likes to be underestimated.

McCoy, definitely, but I'm not so sure about the rest of 'em.

They can all do it. Seven just handicapped himself by being obviously manipulative, to make it harder for him to do the Doctor's usual subtle manipulation, presumably because he needed the extra level of challenge to stave off boredom.


what about how boring the TARDIS's life would be when he gets himself killed

She can see what's going to happen though, so she knows when the Doctor can save himself without her. The only times when he can't are when he regenerates.

Oh, ye of little faith ... The Doctor is never helpless; he just likes to be underestimated.

Well, let's just say that he did a FANTASTIC job of pretending-to-be-helpless-so-he'd-be-underestimated when he watched Rose get swept towards the Void. Or when he let go of that radio telescope. Or when he surrendered to the Dalek God-Emperor. Or when he lost the Tandoka...um, bee...trail. Or when he got locked in the Pandorica.

They can all do it. Seven just handicapped himself by being obviously manipulative, to make it harder for him to do the Doctor's usual subtle manipulation, presumably because he needed the extra level of challenge to stave off boredom.

I remain to be convinced. Though I'll certainly watch past Doctors with this in mind, looking for evidence for or against.

She can see what's going to happen though

Since when?!

Well, let's just say that he did a FANTASTIC job of pretending-to-be-helpless-so-he'd-be-underestimated

The Doctor is fantastic, we all know that. Naturally then, if he wants to pretend to be ineffectual, he'll do so fantastically well.

Since when?!

The Doctor's Wife had her talking about things that hadn't happened yet, such as console room redesigns.

Naturally then, if he wants to pretend to be ineffectual, he'll do so fantastically well.

Especially in the Hartnell years. What a tour de force! SO SUCCESSFULLY pretending to barely be able to WALK, or to SPEAK without fluffing his lines, or indeed to give a toss about saving planets...

The Doctor's Wife had her talking about things that hadn't happened yet, such as console room redesigns.

OMGAWD, so she did! I was so distracted by the fact THE TARDIS IS A WOMAN!!! I never really considered the implications of this...

Especially in the Hartnell years. What a tour de force!

Well, in Time Crash the Doctor himself said he was deliberately acting old as Hartnell, to make himself seem more authoritative. Like so many youngsters, he went just a little over the top to start with, but eventually learnt to tone it down.

I never really considered the implications of this...

It means she knew how Six would like to dress even before he regenerated, and yet she didn't hide that coat from him. Surely she could have moved it to the back of the wardrobe, inside an hidden compartment. Clearly, she doesn't understand aesthetics.

Well, in Time Crash the Doctor himself said he was deliberately acting old as Hartnell, to make himself seem more authoritative.

It wasn't just Hartnell: he claimed to be trying to be old and grumpy for the duration of Troughton, Pertwee AND Tom as well. As if!

Plus the fact he was trying to act authoritative does rather undermine your original argument...

It means she knew how Six would like to dress even before he regenerated, and yet she didn't hide that coat from him. Surely she could have moved it to the back of the wardrobe, inside an hidden compartment. Clearly, she doesn't understand aesthetics.

Oh, I think she understands aesthetics all right (you'll note she didn't put up with the leopardskin look for long)...I suspect she took one look at Colin and decided that the sooner he got himself killed the better. Hence her putting up with (or, who knows, ENCOURAGING) the costume that would drive even the SANEST person to reach for their gun. When this inexplicably failed to work, she smashed his head against her console herself.

I'm really starting to get the hang of this sentient, omniscient TARDIS thing...

he claimed to be trying to be old and grumpy for the duration of Troughton, Pertwee AND Tom as well. As if!

Why would the Doctor lie to himself? He must have meant he was acting old and grumpy by Time Lord standards, but they aren't quite like us.

Plus the fact he was trying to act authoritative does rather undermine your original argument...

Looking authoritative while still being underestimated is indeed a difficult balancing act, but the Doctor has great balance. Hartnell managed to combine an air of venerable wisdom with doddering incompetence by making endearing errors, at times when it wouldn't hurt anything.

I'm really starting to get the hang of this sentient, omniscient TARDIS thing...

Not oniscient, just far-sighted. I doubt she saw the Time War coming the first time she landed on Skaro, but she will have known the Daleks were there yet still picked that destination - the Doctor never intended to go there.

That's how she can take the Doctor where he's needed. She can see what will happen if she 'randomly' lands in 1920s New York or 1880s London, and pick a destination where the Doctor is needed,but isn't likely to get himself killed.

Why would the Doctor lie to himself?

Cos he's totally got into the habit by now? Or because it's been so many centuries and so many different bodies that he can't honestly remember what it was REALLY like being, say, Troughton any more?

He must have meant he was acting old and grumpy by Time Lord standards, but they aren't quite like us.

Their grumpy old men are SCARILY like ours, though - just look at a few Presidential inaugurations and listen to the coffin-dodgers in the corners, grumbling about their dodgy hips...

Hartnell managed to combine an air of venerable wisdom with doddering incompetence by making endearing errors, at times when it wouldn't hurt anything.

AT TIMES WHEN IT WOULDN'T HURT ANYTHING! Tell THAT to his dying-of-radiation-while-being-prisoners-of-the-Daleks Companions when HE had the genius idea of whipping out the mercury fluid link thingy AND THEN LOSING IT.

and pick a destination where the Doctor is needed,but isn't likely to get himself killed.

Isn't likely to get himself killed?! He's ALWAYS likely to get himself killed!!! (Well, except for Mind Robber and Celestial Toymaker, I suppose.) He just ALWAYS manages to defy the odds...well, almost always...

Their grumpy old men are SCARILY like ours, though

Even among humans, not all old men are alike. I wouldn't be surprised if the Doctor modelled his first few incarnations on the lecturers at the Academy - middle aged time lords who seemed old and grumpy to the young Hartnell.

Tell THAT to his dying-of-radiation-while-being-prisoners-of-the-Daleks Companions

No lasting damage was done; they just had a bit of a fright, and humans like that kind of thing, as all the thrill rides at amusement parks demonstrate.

Isn't likely to get himself killed?! He's ALWAYS likely to get himself killed!!!

He always seems likely to get himself killed, but the Tardis knows better.

and humans like that kind of thing, as all the thrill rides at amusement parks demonstrate.

Yeah, but at times and places of our own choosing, not having it imposed on us under uncontrolled circumstances

Yeah, but at times and places of our own choosing, not having it imposed on us under uncontrolled circumstances

Every companion the Doctor has invited onto the Tardis has had fair warning life with him will be thrilling, in their first story. Anyone who forces their way into the Tardis uninvited is in no position to complain.

Even among humans, not all old men are alike.

Have to take your word on that one.

Among Time Lords, however, they seem drearily similar. Who WOULDN'T have all the joy and individuality and energy drained out of 'em after a few thousand years on Gallifrey? (You'd think they'd at least manage good hip replacements to compensate, though.)

I wouldn't be surprised if the Doctor modelled his first few incarnations on the lecturers at the Academy - middle aged time lords who seemed old and grumpy to the young Hartnell.

Troughton can IN NO WAY have resembled ANY old and grumpy tutor, and the Doc's most influential lecturer was OBVIOUSLY Borusa, who exuded a terrifying level of authority that NONE of the early Doctors came within a million miles of emulating. (Though by the time of Tom he at least was able to come up with Borusa-style put-downs.)

Tell THAT to his dying-of-radiation-while-being-prisoners-of-the-Daleks Companions

No lasting damage was done; they just had a bit of a fright, and humans like that kind of thing, as all the thrill rides at amusement parks demonstrate.

They were traumatised for life. FOR LIFE, I tell you!

and humans like that kind of thing, as all the thrill rides at amusement parks demonstrate.

Yeah, but at times and places of our own choosing, not having it imposed on us under uncontrolled circumstances

Yeah - you KNOW that, unless you're INCREDIBLY unlucky, the roller-coaster won't kill you...

Every companion the Doctor has invited onto the Tardis has had fair warning life with him will be thrilling, in their first story.

Dodo didn't.

Anyone who forces their way into the Tardis uninvited is in no position to complain.

Hey! All Ian and Barbara were doing was trying to rescue their poor innocent pupil who that weird old man was OBVIOUSLY holding hostage!

Among Time Lords, however, they seem drearily similar

How would you recognise an old Time Lord? If it's by looks and behaviour, then of course they'll all seem drearily similar, because you're only counting the ones who act like you expect old men to.

Troughton can IN NO WAY have resembled ANY old and grumpy tutor

At 12, 20 can seem old and grumpy. If young Hartnell was sufficiently chirpy, and got on the wrong side of the lecturer, he could easily convince himself proto-Troughton was a grumpy old man.

you KNOW that, unless you're INCREDIBLY unlucky, the roller-coaster won't kill you...

With the Doctor, you know that if you die, it'll almost certainly be in a good cause. He assumes most people, particularly his companions, would be fine with that.

Dodo didn't.

As I recall, Dodo barged into the Tardis uninvited, thinking it was a real phone box.

All Ian and Barbara were doing was trying to rescue their poor innocent pupil

True, but look at it from the Doctor's side. They broke into his home, mere common burglars. How would you feel about that? Most Time Lords would probably have just wiped their minds, and dumped them in a random quarry, but not the Doctor.He generously takes them on the adventure trip of a lifetime.

No, asking the burglars for permission to thrill them is simply not reasonable. Besides, he didn't force them to keep travelling with him. If the excitement was too much for them, they could have stayed with the Thals.

How would you recognise an old Time Lord? If it's by looks and behaviour, then of course they'll all seem drearily similar, because you're only counting the ones who act like you expect old men to.

That's...a very good point.

I suppose you CAN'T go by actual years lived - even if they didn't lie about their ages all the time, each regeneration gives them the chance to start afresh. So I suppose you have to go by looks, and just assume none of 'em regenerated looking ancient.

With the Doctor, you know that if you die, it'll almost certainly be in a good cause.

Well, Ian and Barbara knew that if THEY died, it would almost certainly be because the Doctor was a despotic, selfish, stupid, GIT.

He assumes most people, particularly his companions, would be fine with that.

Whereas NO ONE has actually been fine with that, aside from Katarina (brainwashed god-botherer), Rose (utterly in love with him - 'I wouldn't have missed it for the world' AFTER he TOTALLY UNNECESSARILY locked her up with a Dalek), Rory (probably just got USED to dying after a while), the Brigadier (trained soldier) and Captain Jack (utterly in love with him, AND a trained soldier, AND determined to look cool in the face of death).

As I recall, Dodo barged into the Tardis uninvited, thinking it was a real phone box.

It's hardly BARGING IN UNINVITED if lying old Sexy has 'Police Public Call Box' written all over her...

They broke into his home, mere common burglars.

Even the Doctor should be able to tell the difference between 'attempting to rescue a girl' and 'being a burglar'.

How would you feel about that? Most Time Lords would probably have just wiped their minds, and dumped them in a random quarry, but not the Doctor.He generously takes them on the adventure trip of a lifetime.

Whereas the SENSIBLE thing to do WOULD be to wipe their last few minutes of memories. If the Doctor GENUINELY BELIEVED that the whole of human history (the one he thought 'Not one line!' of could be changed) would be wrecked if a couple of obscure schoolteachers started babbling that they'd seen a bigger-on-the-inside police box...

Besides, he didn't force them to keep travelling with him. If the excitement was too much for them, they could have stayed with the Thals.

That's just not a fair choice! Living with those sexist loser Thals on an irradiated planet or dying at the hands of Yartek Leader of the Alien Voord...MOST people would take Yartek but it's hardly to be compared with the joys of teaching in a comprehensive in 60s London. Alright, so 60s London is so GREY...and foggy...but it's HOME to those poor people and it DOES (allegedly) have cool nightclubs...plus a sexual revolution kicking off any minute now, though in the case of cardigan-clad Ian and Barbara, it may take a little longer...

Fun though this is, what does it have to do with Exodus?

Well, Ian and Barbara knew that if THEY died, it would almost certainly be because the Doctor was a despotic, selfish, stupid, GIT.

But that's not how the Doctor sees things. To understand his behaviour, you have to get inside his head, not easy.

It's hardly BARGING IN UNINVITED if lying old Sexy has 'Police Public Call Box' written all over her...

Not the Doctor's idea, and the Tardis doesn't understand that kind of thing very well.

Even the Doctor should be able to tell the difference between 'attempting to rescue a girl' and 'being a burglar'.

He hadn't spent much time round humans, so he didn't realise Susan looked in need of rescue. For an analogy, imagine if someone followed one of your cats in through the cat flap, claiming they thought the poor dear looked abandoned, when anyone can see it's well cared for. You'd hardly welcome this suspicious stranger, would you?

Whereas the SENSIBLE thing to do WOULD be to wipe their last few minutes of memories.

If he knew which buttons to press. Hartnell doesn't have much practice tampering with human minds, but the Time Lords probably built that facility into every Tardis, knowing them. The Doctor could easily have flannelling while he tried to remember which button was which.

Anyway, Ian and Barbara seem to have ended up getting eternal youth out of their travels, which many people would sacrifice a lot for.

Fun though this is, what does it have to do with Exodus?

Doesn't matter.

Well, Ian and Barbara knew that if THEY died, it would almost certainly be because the Doctor was a despotic, selfish, stupid, GIT.

But that's not how the Doctor sees things. To understand his behaviour, you have to get inside his head, not easy.

Didn't he actually, if not apologise, at least admit that his behaviour had been wrong (if not in The Daleks, then after Barbara yelled at him in Edge of Destruction)?

It's hardly BARGING IN UNINVITED if lying old Sexy has 'Police Public Call Box' written all over her...

Not the Doctor's idea, and the Tardis doesn't understand that kind of thing very well.

She understands PERFECTLY well, and despite her complaints about strays, is obviously TRYING to lure people in. And someone with a brain the size of the Doctor's should have thought to put up that 'Out of order' sign LONG before The War Machines.

He hadn't spent much time round humans, so he didn't realise Susan looked in need of rescue.

I'm not so sure. Being a deeply suspicious kind of person himself, he was well prepared for humans to be deeply suspicious of him and/or Susan.

For an analogy, imagine if someone followed one of your cats in through the cat flap, claiming they thought the poor dear looked abandoned, when anyone can see it's well cared for. You'd hardly welcome this suspicious stranger, would you?

Of course I would! Anyone with the good taste to follow a cat all the way through its catflap is OK by me.

Whereas the SENSIBLE thing to do WOULD be to wipe their last few minutes of memories.

If he knew which buttons to press. Hartnell doesn't have much practice tampering with human minds, but the Time Lords probably built that facility into every Tardis, knowing them. The Doctor could easily have flannelling while he tried to remember which button was which.

Nah - Hartnell was gonna drag poor Susan off through time and space the MOMENT she made it clear she preferred Coal Hill School to HIM. (In his defence, he had a good case for thinking she was mentally unfit to take such a, well, pathologically insane decision.)

Anyway, Ian and Barbara seem to have ended up getting eternal youth out of their travels, which many people would sacrifice a lot for.

Captain Jack and Rex didn't look overly grateful for it when THEY got eternal youth.

Didn't he actually, if not apologise, at least admit that his behaviour had been wrong

Considering the way he keeps on dragging his companions into trouble, he must have been lying to keep them happy.

She understands PERFECTLY well

We've seen her idea of communication, in Edge of Destruction. If she wanted to invite people in, she'd put a cryptic crossword on the door.

Until War machines, the Doctor hadn't spent long enough in any time when people would recognise a police box for it to be worth putting up an out of order sign. Broadly, people are only like to believe the Tardis's disguise if she's in England between 1900 and 1980ish.

Hartnell was gonna drag poor Susan off through time and space the MOMENT she made it clear she preferred Coal Hill School to HIM.

True, but was he always planning to take her teachers with them? If there anything about his behaviour inconsistent with distracting them while he tried to remember how to wipe their memories of recent events?

Captain Jack and Rex didn't look overly grateful for it when THEY got eternal youth.

The version they got hurts. Whatever Ian and Barbara got, it probably works differently. For a start, they're probably not an eternal fact the way Jack is - the Tardis would have complained if that had happened to them.

Considering the way he keeps on dragging his companions into trouble, he must have been lying to keep them happy.

With the possible exception of Nine/Rose and Ten/Donna, I'm not convinced the Doctor EVER grasped the lie-to-keep-'em-happy idea. Least of all Hartnell.

We've seen her idea of communication, in Edge of Destruction. If she wanted to invite people in, she'd put a cryptic crossword on the door.

That's a point. I've got Idris in my head so tend to forget how utterly twisted the TARDIS's early attempts at communication were.

Until War machines, the Doctor hadn't spent long enough in any time when people would recognise a police box for it to be worth putting up an out of order sign.

He spent FIVE MONTHS (well, something like that) stuck in that stupid junk yard. The penny REALLY should have dropped.

Broadly, people are only like to believe the Tardis's disguise if she's in England between 1900 and 1980ish.

Though even those utterly unfamiliar with a real police box might be drawn in by the written offer of help on said box (I'm right in thinking it's mysteriously comprehensible to any alien who inspects the TARDIS?).

If there anything about his behaviour inconsistent with distracting them while he tried to remember how to wipe their memories of recent events?

I'll keep my eyes open the next time I'm watching Unearthly Child (don't hold your breath).

Captain Jack and Rex didn't look overly grateful for it when THEY got eternal youth.

The version they got hurts. Whatever Ian and Barbara got, it probably works differently. For a start, they're probably not an eternal fact the way Jack is - the Tardis would have complained if that had happened to them.

We don't KNOW the TARDIS would have thrown a hysterical fit, a la Utopia. She didn't bat an eyelid when welcoming Captain Jack aboard in Journey's End. Fickle hussy.

I'm not convinced the Doctor EVER grasped the lie-to-keep-'em-happy idea.

Once again, I suspect you're underestimating the Doctor's diabolic cunning.

He spent FIVE MONTHS (well, something like that) stuck in that stupid junk yard. T

But no one would expect to find a working police box in a junk yard, they'd assume it had been scrapped, so they wouldn't be lured in under false pretences.

We don't KNOW the TARDIS would have thrown a hysterical fit, a la Utopia.

It's simpler to assume she only changed her mind once, after the Doctor did, rather than switching back and forth.

I'm not convinced the Doctor EVER grasped the lie-to-keep-'em-happy idea.

Once again, I suspect you're underestimating the Doctor's diabolic cunning.

Ah yes, I've just rewatched A Christmas Carol and it has Amy saying 'Have you got a plan?' the Doc replying 'Yes', her saying 'Are you lying?' and him replying 'Yes' again. 'Diabolic cunning' isn't exactly the phrase springing to mind...

But no one would expect to find a working police box in a junk yard

They MIGHT. For all we know, people expected to find police boxes and policemen all over the place. The forces of law n'order were a lot more visible in those days.

It's simpler to assume she only changed her mind once, after the Doctor did, rather than switching back and forth.

Sexy has a mind of her own and would never slavishly follow the Doctor's fickle attitude towards his strays. (She thinks RORY'S 'the pretty one', for starters.)

Don't ask me why she DID happily tolerate Jack driving her in Journey's End. Maybe he seduced her while the Doctor was off cremating the Master, or something? They WERE both paradoxes at the time...

'Diabolic cunning' isn't exactly the phrase springing to mind...

Which is just how the Doctor likes it. One of those yeses was a lie, but why assume it was the second?

For all we know, people expected to find police boxes and policemen all over the place.

A public phone box on private property would be a pretty bad idea since people would have to trespass to reach. Worse, it's not visible from the road. People genuinely trying to contact the police did not break into random scrap yards in the hope of finding a stray phone box, not even in the 1950s.

Sexy has a mind of her own and would never slavishly follow the Doctor's fickle attitude towards his strays

But if he sensually caresses her console, mentally whispering sweet nothings into the telepathic circuits, she can be persuaded, which will be why she tolerates Captain Jack on subsequent encounters.

If Captain Jack's form of immortality were the only one we'd seen, we'd have to assume Ian and Barbara received the same dubious gift, but it isn't. That makes it simpler to assume they received a different form

One of those yeses was a lie, but why assume it was the second?

Because it WAS the second. We KNOW the exact moment a plan actually hit the Eleventh Doctor and it was AFTER he'd lied to Amy about having one. (You remember - the third time he was yelling 'A Christmas Carol' down the phone. You could practically SEE the lightbulb going on over his head.)

People genuinely trying to contact the police did not break into random scrap yards in the hope of finding a stray phone box, not even in the 1950s.

True, but anyone wandering into that promising-looking scrapyard would be entitled to think they could use the police box if they felt so inclined. It's not as if they weren't in out-of-the-way and unexpected places - there's one slap in the middle of the countryside in The Temptation of Sarah Jane.

But if he sensually caresses her console, mentally whispering sweet nothings into the telepathic circuits, she can be persuaded, which will be why she tolerates Captain Jack on subsequent encounters.

Probably why she ran off with the Master too. Let being turned into a Paradox Machine be a lesson to the shameless hussy.

If Captain Jack's form of immortality were the only one we'd seen, we'd have to assume Ian and Barbara received the same dubious gift, but it isn't. That makes it simpler to assume they received a different form

Ooh - which other immortalities have we seen? The Guardians weren't immortal (only until they were 'no longer needed') and I reckon the immortality ring of Rassilon is as over-hyped as all the other Things Of Rassilon. Pretty sure Borusa and co are goners NOW.

We KNOW the exact moment a plan actually hit the Eleventh Doctor and it was AFTER he'd lied to Amy about having one.

That doesn't mean he didn't have a plan previously. He just dropped whatever he originally intended when he had an even better idea.

True, but anyone wandering into that promising-looking scrapyard

Would be a trespasser, with no legs to stand on, legally.

Ooh - which other immortalities have we seen? The Guardians weren't immortal

We don't actually know that Ian and Barbara are immortal, just that they're ageless, which isn't quite the same thing. They might last five billion years before getting killed, or they might get shot in 2050, but either way, once dead, they'd stay dead.

Other ageless characters include Borusa, after being turned to stone, Mawdryn, through perpetual regeneration, the Three who Rule, thanks to being vampires, and Auton-Rory, who was plastic.

That doesn't mean he didn't have a plan previously. He just dropped whatever he originally intended when he had an even better idea.

Doubt it. Cos, let's face it, the plan he came up with was pretty rubbish. It TOTALLY messed with the Web of Time. It was IMPOSSIBLE (if he's only got an hour to save people he CAN'T take a few days out in the TARDIS or that's what he'd've bloody well done in Parting of the Ways). It DIDN'T WORK - as it involved changing Kazran's brain so much that the isomorphic controls would no longer recognise him. So how could he possibly have had a WORSE plan in mind?

True, but anyone wandering into that promising-looking scrapyard

Would be a trespasser, with no legs to stand on, legally.

It looks like a business that WANTS visitors, doesn't it? The gates are open, aren't they? (Well, actually I don't remember, it's been quite a while.)

They might last five billion years before getting killed, or they might get shot in 2050, but either way, once dead, they'd stay dead.

I s'pose you're right, what with them not having have a Bad Wolf Goddess of Space and Time making 'em immortal. But we just don't KNOW anything about their condition. Maybe they're like Sarah Jane (and, presumably, Liz, if she's on a Moonbase aged 70-ish) and just aged so incredibly well that they LOOKED like they were ageless. It's not like she actually went to their university to inspect them in person.

Cos, let's face it, the plan he came up with was pretty rubbish.

The Doctor, rubbish? Unthinkable. He got to have fun enacting his scheme, and in the end the day was saved, just as planned. Admittedly, he couldn't have known exactly how things would turn out at that point, but with enough cards stuffed up your sleeves, you don't need to.

It looks like a business that WANTS visitors, doesn't it?

It doesn't want them helping themselves to the scrap. Legitimate visitors would call at the office, where they'd deal with the owner, or their staff. If they were buying, they might get to look round the scrapyard, but they'd have an escort to make sure they didn't pocket anything. If they were selling, they wouldn't even get that far inside.

And yes, theft would have been a real problem, even in the 60s. I've known people of that generation who acquired half their furniture from skips and rubbish heaps. They'd have happily dragged a police box home from an unguarded scrapyard, perhaps intending to use it as a wardrobe, perhaps intending to dismantle it and turn the wood into bookshelves.

All of which raises the question, why did nobody stop Ian and Barbara just wandering into the scrapyard.

Maybe they're like Sarah Jane (and, presumably, Liz, if she's on a Moonbase aged 70-ish) and just aged so incredibly well

Or maybe they're both like Ian and Barbara, prevented from ageing normally by the weird forces the Doctor exposed them to, apparently by accident.

He got to have fun enacting his scheme

Yeah, and he also had a forced marriage, stuck his arms down a shark's throat, and got told to **** off by the person whose life he fondly thought he was vastly improving. So not THAT much fun.

and in the end the day was saved, just as planned.

But hardly according to The Dickens Rip-Off Plan, OR any theoretical previous plan which you're attributing to him based on no evidence whatsoever.

Personally MY plan would have been along the simple-but-elegant lines of 'Hit Sexy with a hammer till she admits that she was only joking and OF COURSE she can bloody well lock onto the spaceship and tow it safely home.'

And yes, theft would have been a real problem, even in the 60s. I've known people of that generation who acquired half their furniture from skips and rubbish heaps.

THAT'S not stealing! It's SAVING and RECYCLING.

All of which raises the question, why did nobody stop Ian and Barbara just wandering into the scrapyard.

Quite. If there's no owner around, the place should be locked up, given that there's piles of non-stolen junk there. If there IS an owner around, what the hell do they make of the police box? Or, assuming the rather dodgy 'perception filter/humanity is thick' explanations we get in New Who are sufficient to not notice Sexy for MONTHS AND MONTHS...what does the owner make of the Doctor and Susan popping in and out all the time?

Maybe they're like Sarah Jane (and, presumably, Liz, if she's on a Moonbase aged 70-ish) and just aged so incredibly well

Or maybe they're both like Ian and Barbara, prevented from ageing normally by the weird forces the Doctor exposed them to, apparently by accident.

Though it's perplexing what time-radiation (or whatever) Liz would have been exposed to that the Brigadier (who definitely DID age, not that you'd know it from DOCTOR WHO until HE DROPPED DEAD but it's pretty obvious in the SJA) wasn't.

So not THAT much fun.

Not for you, but the Doctor might well enjoy sticking his hand down a shark's throat. There's a slight risk true, but life without risk would be boring.

based on no evidence whatsoever.

Based on his track record. No one could do as well as the Doctor relying on luck alone; he must be highly competent, with all that implies.

what does the owner make of the Doctor and Susan popping in and out all the time?

Or were they? About Time suggests the scrap yard was just a meeting point. The Tardis may have only turned up there five minutes before Susan. That way, Remembrance could have happened a few days before Unearthly Child, without Susan or the Doctor noticing anything. If it happened afterwards, there ought to be tinsel everywhere.

Also, during Remembrance there was a Dalek hiding in that scrapyard. If the Doctor hadn't already got the owner out of the way, the Daleks would certainly exterminate him. If About Time is right, they might have done that before the Tardis first arrived, unwittingly giving the Doctor free access to the scrapyard.

No doubt you're thinking the Dalek can't have got there first, because it would have shot the Doctor, but he stays inside the Tardis while it's in the scrapyard. The Dalek would sit patiently, waiting for a chance to ambush its racial nemesis, only to be frustrated when the Tardis disappeared without the Doctor even sticking his head out the door.

Anyway, the general public know people aren't just allowed to wander into scrapyards, so they'd realise any police box they found there wasn't in use. There was no danger of random people wandering in, demanding to use the phone, which means an out of order sign wouldn't have been strictly necessary.

Though it's perplexing what time-radiation (or whatever) Liz would have been exposed to that the Brigadier

It'd just need a minor accident in the Doctor's lab while she was there and the Brigadier wasn't, which happened often enough. Either that, or the Doctor made an unrecorded trip to the Moonbase, where he accidentally got his old friend dosed with bizarre time radiation.

the Doctor might well enjoy sticking his hand down a shark's throat. There's a slight risk true, but life without risk would be boring.

Anyone ELSE might need to spice up their tedious existence by sticking their arms down a shark's throat. The Doctor, not so much.

And Amy and Rory wouldn't WANT to be rescued if it came at the cost of a few of the Doctor's limbs.

No one could do as well as the Doctor relying on luck alone; he must be highly competent, with all that implies.

Let's face it...it's MAINLY luck.

About Time suggests the scrap yard was just a meeting point. The Tardis may have only turned up there five minutes before Susan.

About Time is surely being overoptimistic about Hartnell's TARDIS-steering abilities. The Chameleon Circuit might still be working at that point but it's about the only thing that WAS.

That way, Remembrance could have happened a few days before Unearthly Child, without Susan or the Doctor noticing anything. If it happened afterwards, there ought to be tinsel everywhere.

Not necessarily. In THOSE days they didn't start celebrating Christmas quite so early as WE'RE forced to. And how could Susan NOT have noticed all those spaceship-landing-marks on the playground?

The Dalek would sit patiently, waiting for a chance to ambush its racial nemesis, only to be frustrated when the Tardis disappeared without the Doctor even sticking his head out the door.

The Doctor ALWAYS sticks his head out the door! Always always always!

Anyway, the general public know people aren't just allowed to wander into scrapyards

Well, I didn't know that. I'd've assumed that they wanted you to nip in and have a bit of a browse.

so they'd realise any police box they found there wasn't in use.

Or, of course, that it was for sale because it was no longer in use.

The Doctor should have had an 'Out of Order' AND a 'Not for Sale' sign up. Lest it be purchased as a nice garden shed (I'm assuming no one in 1960s London had the appreciation for modern art displayed in, say, 1970s Paris or 70s Pompeii).

It'd just need a minor accident in the Doctor's lab while [Liz] was there and the Brigadier wasn't, which happened often enough.

I think it'd take more than a minor accident to give someone immortality (or even whatever approximation thereof Ian and Barbara have been blessed with).

Anyone ELSE might need to spice up their tedious existence by sticking their arms down a shark's throat...

It's no more dangerous than being chased by a werewolf, and the Doctor found that pretty hilarious.

The Chameleon Circuit might still be working at that point but it's about the only thing that WAS.

You sure? Susan doesn't act like the Tardis has always been unsteerable. Unlike the Doctor, she's got no reason to conceal the truth if it had been.

In THOSE days they didn't start celebrating Christmas quite so early ..

But Remembrance would have to be few weeks after Unearthly Child, or the Doctor would surly have noticed all the Dalek activity - signals from the school basement, a brainwashed headmaster, and a scout lurking just outside the Tardis door. That puts it mid-December at the earliest, and even in the 60s, that would mean tinsel everywhere.

And how could Susan NOT have noticed all those spaceship-landing-marks on the playground?

Torchwood cleaned them all up. Suppose Remembrance happened in the first week of the Autumn term, and Susan didn't start school until the week after. If Ian and Barbara have just had their headmaster vanish under mysterious circumstance, they'll be more alert to other weirdness, like Susan.

The Doctor ALWAYS sticks his head out the door!

Not in Unearthly Child he didn't.

I'd've assumed that they wanted you to nip in and have a bit of a browse.

And risk you walking out with a 4-foot high rusty iron cat sculpture tucked under one arm? Hardly

Or, of course, that it was for sale because it was no longer in use. likely.

Either way, they wouldn't be allowed to wander inside.

I think it'd take more than a minor accident to give someone immortality

A minor accident with the Tardis shrunk everyone to under an inch high. If the Doctor was tampering with her control, trying to get her working, an accidental blast of artron energy could have done almost anything to Liz.

It's no more dangerous than being chased by a werewolf, and the Doctor found that pretty hilarious.

Ah, but the werewolf is a CLASSIC monster. Like the vampire. A living legend. OF COURSE he'd be over the moon. A SHARK however...unless he's a rabid Jaws fan, it's unlikely to produce the same squeals of excitement.

Susan doesn't act like the Tardis has always been unsteerable. Unlike the Doctor, she's got no reason to conceal the truth if it had been.

Have you got anything to back that up? My memories of the black-and-whites are growing seriously hazy due to, um, not bothering to watch any of them since RTG found me something better to do with my life, but I seem to remember something about the Doctor not being able to steer cos he didn't have the TARDIS instruction manual...

But Remembrance would have to be few weeks after Unearthly Child, or the Doctor would surly have noticed all the Dalek activity - signals from the school basement, a brainwashed headmaster, and a scout lurking just outside the Tardis door.

Come off it! Doctors are ALWAYS missing stuff. From Tennant's immortal line 'You don't get any trees in a...library' to Hartnell not spotting all that dodgy stuff at Heathrow while he was dealing with the War Machines to Matt not registering that the statues only had one head to Eccy not quite getting the point about the London Eye to Troughton needing to be reminded that the TARDIS was in the path of that volcano he'd just created...

And how could Susan NOT have noticed all those spaceship-landing-marks on the playground?

Torchwood cleaned them all up.

If the school had been blown to smithereens and the surviving pupils were wandering around with their memories missing, THEN I might believe Torchwood had tried to do a clean-up...

I'd've assumed that they wanted you to nip in and have a bit of a browse.

And risk you walking out with a 4-foot high rusty iron cat sculpture tucked under one arm?

Well, obviously they would employ a member of staff to keep an eye on people and sell them stuff and suchlike...

I REALLY WANT a 4-foot high rusty iron cat sculpture now.

A minor accident with the Tardis shrunk everyone to under an inch high. If the Doctor was tampering with her control, trying to get her working, an accidental blast of artron energy could have done almost anything to Liz.

Theoretically that's true, but miniaturisation is just a passing amusement (unless you get poison all over yourself or meet an oochie) whilst Who has given me the impression there's something incredibly fundamental about immortality.

OF COURSE he'd be over the moon. A SHARK however...

Can be just as exciting. There's the thrill of danger, the sleek lethality of the creature, and the novelty of the experience. Remember, the Doctor was pretty excited about the clockwork robots too, and they're hardly a classic monster: he just like their looks.

Have you got anything to back that up?

Mainly that when the Doctor starts blaming the navigation problems on one thing or another, Susan doesn't say he's never been able to steer.

Since the Tardis is taking its passengers where they need to be, maybe she felt nowhere needed Hartnell before he picked up the teachers, hence went where he wanted instead. Just imagine if she's dropped the Doctor on Skaro or stone age earth without Ian or Barbara, and maybe without Susan too. It's hardly what those places need, is it?

Come off it! Doctors are ALWAYS missing stuff

Or possibly just pretending to, to wind up their friends and fool their enemies.

Anyway, if the Dalek got to the scrap yard before the Tardis left, why didn't it do anything? At the very least, they could have taken Susan hostage.

Torchwood aren't the only people who could have cleaned up. There's also the army people who helped Seven, or even the local council services.

Well, obviously they would employ a member of staff to keep an eye on people and sell them stuff and suchlike...

Exactly. And that member of staff would stop you casually wandering into any old police boxes they had around the place, in case you got trapped inside.

Who has given me the impression there's something incredibly fundamental about immortality.

True, but time is pretty fundamental too, which didn't stop the Third Doctor having accidents with it - accidentally seeing his near future self. Maybe, when he took the console out for 'Inferno', there was some very mild leakage from the heart of the Tardis.

Remember, the Doctor was pretty excited about the clockwork robots too, and they're hardly a classic monster: he just like their looks.

Yeah, they were GORGEOUS-looking. AND they were blowing a hole in space-time to nick Madame de Pompadour's brain. The Shark, on the other hand, is...a large fish.

when the Doctor starts blaming the navigation problems on one thing or another, Susan doesn't say he's never been able to steer.

Grandfather's an incredibly bad-tempered git who'll chuck you out the nearest airlock/smash your skull in with a rock as soon as look at you. OF COURSE Susan doesn't publicly contradict him.

Since the Tardis is taking its passengers where they need to be

Not in the Hartnell era she wasn't. Matt missed his only chance to ask her what the HELL she was thinking of, with all those not-one-line! historicals...

maybe she felt nowhere needed Hartnell before he picked up the teachers

The entire ******* UNIVERSE always needs the Doctor!

Plus, see Frayed and Time and Relative and suchlike...

Come off it! Doctors are ALWAYS missing stuff

Or possibly just pretending to, to wind up their friends and fool their enemies.

You're making the same mistake as the Vashta Nerada and the Atraxi - OVER-estimating the Doctor. (Of course, this is a less fatal mistake than underestimating him. You generally get to live, if not to commit the genocide you'd SO been looking forward to.)

And that member of staff would stop you casually wandering into any old police boxes they had around the place, in case you got trapped inside.

Or, of course, would just SELL you that delightful blue box. Who WOULDN'T want one?

Maybe, when he took the console out for 'Inferno', there was some very mild leakage from the heart of the Tardis.

Maybe. Or maybe we should go with the idea that Liz is just an incredibly well-preserved seventy-year-old...Or maybe that she dissolved in a pool of acid in 2003 and UNIT was just lying about the Moonbase the way they were lying about everything else in Death of the Doctor...

The Shark, on the other hand, is...a large fish.

With sleek curves and magnificent teeth. The Doctor is quite capable of finding beauty in things that don't look remotely human.

OF COURSE Susan doesn't publicly contradict him.

He'd never deliberately hurt his beloved granddaughter. True, he did maroon her on a post-apocalyptic world, but that was for her own good - he felt she'd be happier scavenging the ruins with the love of her life than staying with him.

If she'd teased him about his steering, the most she'd have got would be a clip round the ear.

Matt missed his only chance to ask her what the HELL she was thinking of, with all those not-one-line! historicals...

Those too were places the Doctor needed to be, if not for the benefit of the locals, for his own.

The entire ******* UNIVERSE always needs the Doctor!

True, but before Ian and Barbara stumbled into the Tardis, there was no Doctor, only Grandfather Theta Sigma.

The First Doctor was about 450 in Unearthly Child, but he left Gallifrey when he was about 200-250. (Romana implied 250, the new series implies 200). Neither One nor Susan act like they've spent the last two centuries saving planets, and there's no way Susan is 200, so we can assume the Tardis spent 200 years getting her thief into the right frame of mind.

You're making the same mistake as the Vashta Nerada and the Atraxi - OVER-estimating the Doctor.

Basically, I don't find it plausible that anyone could be as consistently lucky as the Doctor appears to be. Someone is stacking the deck, possibly the Tardis, but preferably the Doctor himself.

Or, of course, would just SELL you that delightful blue box. Who WOULDN'T want one?

Indeed, but that still means the Doctor didn't have to worry about random strangers getting inside his Tardis. The staff showing the buyers round the scrapyard would not allow the customers to climb inside the junk.

Or maybe we should go with the idea that Liz is just an incredibly well-preserved seventy-year-old.

Or perhaps she's using cannibalised alien technology. There's enough of it around. Sarah Jane should know if there's really a moonbase or not, so one probably exists, even if Liz may be based elsewhere.

The Shark, on the other hand, is...a large fish.

With sleek curves and magnificent teeth. The Doctor is quite capable of finding beauty in things that don't look remotely human.

Oh, sure, but when it comes to the crunch...he's no doubt seen big fish LOADS of times before.

He'd never deliberately hurt his beloved granddaughter. True, he did maroon her on a post-apocalyptic world, but that was for her own good - he felt she'd be happier scavenging the ruins with the love of her life than staying with him.

So what you're saying is, Hartnell would never deliberately hurt Susan EXCEPT for that time he dumped her without medical supplies (or shoes) on a devastated alien planet at the mercy of a bloke whose idea of courtship was to slap her round the face with a dead fish...?

And the REST of their lives together he TOTALLY wrapped her in cotton-wool, give or take the odd occasion when she had to brave dead jungles to get alien drugs, or edge across abysses on a piece of ice...

If she'd teased him about his steering, the most she'd have got would be a clip round the ear.

Or, of course, a jolly good smacked bottom.

Though as Susan claimed to have invented the word 'TARDIS' it's not as if we can BELIEVE anything she says on this particular subject.

Matt missed his only chance to ask her what the HELL she was thinking of, with all those not-one-line! historicals...

Those too were places the Doctor needed to be, if not for the benefit of the locals, for his own.

Very, VERY interesting. I never thought of that.

Though if Sexy IS trying to get him to take up humanity-saving as a hobby, it's a bit weird to take him to the Aztecs, the French Terror, the Crusades, the Bartholemew's Massacre etc etc...

...Though mind you, Barbara REALLY showed him the courage and determination and goodness humanity was capable of in The Aztecs. And the Doctor's reaction - trying to COMFORT her with lies about how much better she'd made Whatshisface (High Priest of Knowledge)'s life instead of screaming I TOLD YOU SO!!!! in her face - REALLY shows how much he'd grown. (Not sure if the other unfortunate episodes in human history had quite the same effect, though.)

before Ian and Barbara stumbled into the Tardis, there was no Doctor, only Grandfather Theta Sigma.

Ooh! That's another thing I haven't really thought about.

Did he REALLY get 'the Doctor' (and therefore WE get our word for healer) from Ian's mistaken 'Dr Foreman'?

The First Doctor was about 450 in Unearthly Child, but he left Gallifrey when he was about 200-250. (Romana implied 250, the new series implies 200). Neither One nor Susan act like they've spent the last two centuries saving planets, and there's no way Susan is 200

She might HAVE to be 200. After all, Time Lords have uneven ageing patterns - Matt didn't change one iota in 200 years whereas Tennant looked as if he aged ten years in five. And can you honestly see the Doctor making a sneak return visit to Gallifrey after he'd scarpered with the TARDIS to rescue his granddaughter? How would he even KNOW a granddaughter had been born? And he had such a healthy respect for those losers he didn't dare even mention the WORDS 'Time Lord' or 'Gallifrey' in those days...

Basically, I don't find it plausible that anyone could be as consistently lucky as the Doctor appears to be. Someone is stacking the deck, possibly the Tardis, but preferably the Doctor himself.

We know whenever the Doc's trying to stack the deck - McCoy always made it painfully obvious.

And, OK, so he's INCREDIBLY lucky, but then he DOES have a fairy godmother (Vincent and the Doctor)...

Indeed, but that still means the Doctor didn't have to worry about random strangers getting inside his Tardis. The staff showing the buyers round the scrapyard would not allow the customers to climb inside the junk.

But he'd have to explain matters to said staff FIRST.

Or perhaps [Liz]'s using cannibalised alien technology.

If any Companion tried doing that - let alone to acquire something as drastic as immortality - several Doctors would instantly turn up to treat them like they're Adam Mitchell.

Sarah Jane should know if there's really a moonbase or not, so one probably exists, even if Liz may be based elsewhere.

Ah, that's true.

Though why didn't Sarah share this information with her brats?

Oh, sure, but when it comes to the crunch...he's no doubt seen big fish LOADS of times before.

When? He's been around oceans a few times - Fury from the Deep, Warriors of the Deep, Black Spot - but I don't recall him getting up close with any sharks before Christmas Carol.

So what you're saying is, Hartnell would never deliberately hurt Susan EXCEPT for that time he dumped her without medical supplies

He didn't think that was hurting her. Compared to his school days, it may well have seemed like a walk in the park. After all, he had to go through all Gallifrey's strange rites of passage.

Though if Sexy IS trying to get him to take up humanity-saving as a hobby, it's a bit weird to take him to the Aztecs, the French Terror, the Crusades, the Bartholemew's Massacre etc etc...

She was showing him both the best and the worst of humanity, wrapped up in a convenient package, so he'd know we also need saving from ourselves. That impact on his human companions also helped.

And can you honestly see the Doctor making a sneak return visit to Gallifrey after he'd scarpered with the TARDIS to rescue his granddaughter?

He could have snatched her on a school field trip, away from Gallifrey. If Susan were 200, she'd be older than Romana.

McCoy always made it painfully obvious.

Only because he wanted people to know what he was doing.

I'm pretty sure the fairy godmother was just a joke. If he had one of those, the best he could hope for would be being put to sleep for a 100 years.

But he'd have to explain matters to said staff FIRST.

Such was the authority in his voice ...

He'd need to explain himself anyway, if the Tardis was at Trotter's Lane for more than a few hours before Unearthly Child. After convincing the staff to ignore the eccentric old man living on their premises, convincing them to keep people away from his police box should be easy enough.

Though why didn't Sarah share this information with her brats?

Not important enough to mention. They might disagree, but when you've walked on an alien world at the very edge of the universe a mere moon base seems trivial.

he's no doubt seen big fish LOADS of times before.

When? He's been around oceans a few times - Fury from the Deep, Warriors of the Deep, Black Spot - but I don't recall him getting up close with any sharks before Christmas Carol.

No doubt he's been to MILLIONS of boring ocean planets in untelevised adventures.

He didn't think that was hurting her.

Of course he didn't - he was just asserting his natural male superiority over his granddaughter. Just as he would have been if she'd pointed out he'd never been able to steer the TARDIS to save his life, and he'd 'corrected' her on this issue...

Compared to his school days, it may well have seemed like a walk in the park. After all, he had to go through all Gallifrey's strange rites of passage.

WHAT strange rites of passage? Aside from the admittedly traumatic Untempered Schism, the worst they seemed to do was use tea-leaves to interfere with each other's time-experiments. (At least, now the books have been decanonised and they no longer play Eighth Man Bound...)

Though if Sexy IS trying to get him to take up humanity-saving as a hobby, it's a bit weird to take him to the Aztecs, the French Terror, the Crusades, the Bartholemew's Massacre etc etc...

She was showing him both the best and the worst of humanity, wrapped up in a convenient package,

There just wasn't much of the best of humanity around then.

He could have snatched her on a school field trip, away from Gallifrey.

Huh. As if those losers would have ever gone on anything as exciting as a school field trip.

If Susan were 200, she'd be older than Romana.

Yeah, that WOULD feel...totally wrong.

But they MUST have scarpered together. Hartnell would have needed help lugging his cot, for starters.

Perhaps in the days he deluded himself he could steer Sexy, the Doc dropped Susan off on some interesting planet and accidentally took 200 years (for him) and five minutes (for her) to return?

McCoy always made it painfully obvious.

Only because he wanted people to know what he was doing.

Doctors ALWAYS want people to know what he's doing. To quote Matt, 'I'm being extremely clever here and none of you are listening. What's the POINT of you?'

I'm pretty sure the fairy godmother was just a joke. If he had one of those, the best he could hope for would be being put to sleep for a 100 years.

Only if his fairy godmother was one of those Earth loser-types. And Wardrobe suggets he HAS been to fairyland.

But he'd have to explain matters to said staff FIRST.

Such was the authority in his voice ...

Not in Hartnell's voice there wasn't! Stammering, fluffs, senile repetitions...

when you've walked on an alien world at the very edge of the universe a mere moon base seems trivial.

Not necessarily. Sarah's always bubbling over with excitement about what an adventure life on Earth is, a moonbase should make her and her pals EXPLODE with excitement.

No doubt he's been to MILLIONS of boring ocean planets in untelevised adventures.

The Tardis doesn't do boring. The only ocean planes it'd take the Doctor to are the ones with mile long telepathic squid or seaweed trying to enslave humanity - and whoever heard of a telepathic shark?

WHAT strange rites of passage? Aside from the admittedly traumatic Untempered Schism,

Cultures that do rites of passage generally don't stop at one. We can reasonably assume something similarly traumatic happened when he passed his final exams, and when he got married.

Similarly, I wouldn't be that surprised if a typical school prank was marooning a fellow pupil on a primitive world, without a Tardis. The teachers would rescue them, of course, but not before the student had a few character-building experiences.

the Doc dropped Susan off on some interesting planet and accidentally took 200 years (for him) and five minutes (for her) to return?

Sound plausible, and Susan would be too tactful to tease him about it. Besides, think about how the ages work if they left Gallifrey when Susan was 15 and the Doctor 200. Either the Doctor or his child would have to have reproduced while under 100. By Time Lord standards, that's practically a teen pregnancy, if we can judge by how young Romana acted at 150-ish.

Only if his fairy godmother was one of those Earth loser-types.

But all fairies are equally bad news, even when they're trying to be good. A fairy godmother would happily turn the Doctor into a pet poodle to keep him safe, and wouldn't understand why he might object.

Not in Hartnell's voice there wasn't! Stammering, fluffs, senile repetitions...

Provided him with authotity. People respected their elders in the 60s, if they were adult themselves anyway. They wouldn't dream of offending someone as venerable as the Doctor.

a moonbase should make her and her pals EXPLODE with excitement.

Well, the other explanation is that she knew knew if she told them the kids would start begging her to arrange a moon trip.

The Tardis doesn't do boring.

I take no pleasure in winning this particular argument - but The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe conclusively proved that, in point of fact, the TARDIS DOES do boring. Frequently.

We can reasonably assume something similarly traumatic happened when he passed his final exams, and when he got married.

I suspect all the students from the Doctor's year had LEFT the Academy by the time he scraped through his exams with 51% on the second attempt (or was it the third?) so would be unlikely to arrange a special 'treat' for him. As for marriage...there's no evidence whatsoever he had one until River. Well, except Marilyn. And maybe Elizabeth I...

Similarly, I wouldn't be that surprised if a typical school prank was marooning a fellow pupil on a primitive world, without a Tardis.

I doubt it was that easy to get hold of a TARDIS to strand the victim in the first place. They tended to keep their doors locked unless they were planning on permanently stealing someone.

think about how the ages work if they left Gallifrey when Susan was 15 and the Doctor 200. Either the Doctor or his child would have to have reproduced while under 100. By Time Lord standards, that's practically a teen pregnancy,

If it wasn't for bloody Tennant announcing he was a dad in Fear Her and Doctor's Daughter, I'd claim he found Susan under a mulberry bush or something. What's that line in Hitchhikers' Guide about an accident involving a contraceptive and a time machine...?

The Susan thing just doesn't make sense WHATEVER way you look at it.

Ah wait, what if the Doctor's *shudders* first wife was HUMAN? That would explain him and their half-human sprog reproducing a lot faster than the Time Lord norm. When the Master said the Doc loved playing with Earth girls he might have been remembering a lot further back than we suspected...

No, actually wouldn't SHE have humanised him years before Ian n'Babs had a go? Well, maybe she was a total ***** or something.

A fairy godmother would happily turn the Doctor into a pet poodle to keep him safe, and wouldn't understand why he might object.

NO ONE would be sick enough to turn the Doctor into a poodle. Ever. Even in the depths of his depravity the Master only went as far as providing him with a dogbowl...

People respected their elders in the 60s, if they were adult themselves anyway. They wouldn't dream of offending someone as venerable as the Doctor.

Pity Hartnell didn't spend more than a couple of days in the 60s post-Unearthly Child, then.

Well, the other explanation is that she knew knew if she told them the kids would start begging her to arrange a moon trip.

Not necessarily. They were unnaturally responsible rug-rats. They were so sickeningly well-behaved they decided to obey the Judoon's grounding order RATHER THAN GO FOR A TRIP IN THE TARDIS.

The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe conclusively proved that, in point of fact, the TARDIS DOES do boring.

Boring for the viewers, maybe, but was the Doctor bored?

I suspect all the students from the Doctor's year had LEFT the Academy by the time he scraped through his exams .... so would be unlikely to arrange a special 'treat' for him. As for marriage...there's no evidence whatsoever he had one

It'd be the teachers who arranged the 'treat', as a rite of passage, and Susan does suggest he might have been married - unless you can imagine Hartnell sleeping round.

I doubt it was that easy to get hold of a TARDIS to strand the victim in the first place

The fellow students wouldn't need a Tardis though; they could whip up a time corridor with 3 mirrors, a cup of tea, and a silver fork.

<i>The Susan thing just doesn't make sense WHATEVER way you look at it. <.i>

The ages work better if she was born when he was over 400, but that means either he snatched her off Gallifrey, or he didn't leave until he was
over 400.

If it wasn't for bloody Tennant announcing he was a dad in Fear Her and Doctor's Daughter

Well, there is the adoption option.

NO ONE would be sick enough to turn the Doctor into a poodle.

Fairies would, to keep him safe. After all, if he was the cosseted lapdog of some sweet old lady, and always had been so far as the entire universe could remember, hardly anyone would want to kill him. The Fairy godmother wouldn't find this sick or depraved, because they don't see things the way humans or Time Lords do.

What has any of this have to do with this novel?

The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe conclusively proved that, in point of fact, the TARDIS DOES do boring.

Boring for the viewers, maybe, but was the Doctor bored?

Of course he was, poor darling. This is the bloke who nearly went mad with boredom having to watch the (alleged) greatest artist in human history paint for a few hours. And yet Sexy REPEATEDLY took him to a boring snowy tree-y world where NOTHING EVER HAPPENS.

It'd be the teachers who arranged the 'treat', as a rite of passage

SURELY any graduation tricks would count as a propensity for vulgar facetiousness in the eyes of the teachers?

Susan does suggest he might have been married - unless you can imagine Hartnell sleeping round.

I (mercifully) can't imagine Hartnell sleeping with anyone, ever, married or not.

The fellow students wouldn't need a Tardis though; they could whip up a time corridor with 3 mirrors, a cup of tea, and a silver fork.

Time corridors are for inferior beings like Daleks.

The Fairy godmother wouldn't find this sick or depraved, because they don't see things the way humans or Time Lords do.

It doesn't matter HOW they see things, the Doctor as a poodle would make the universe itself cry out in horror.

What has any of this have to do with this novel?

Why do people keep whinging on the rare occasions we get a proper, entirely Who-ish conversation going? If this turns into a discussion wholly on Hartnell's age, I'll move it into the Hartnell section. Until then, it stays.

What has any of this have to do with this novel?

Nothing, but it's very entertaining and quite fascinating. What would you call such a conversation, a Whopinion duel?

I just pointed this out because this thread is SUPPOSED to be about the novel Exodus. Looks like you've got some post moving ahead of you, Emily

. And yet Sexy REPEATEDLY took him to a boring snowy tree-y world where NOTHING EVER HAPPENS.

The Doctor's idea of nothing ever happening isn't quite the same as ours, as demonstrated by his visit to Van Gogh. He's quite capable of dismissing three days being chased by a grizzly bear as nothing much.

SURELY any graduation tricks would count as a propensity for vulgar facetiousness in the eyes of the teachers?

Not if they were age hallowed traditions, performed by the teachers themselves. Borusa would be quite happy to follow a million years of precedent, and drop the young Doctor and Master on a primitive world, fastened together by the sacred Prydonian handcuffs, with the coordinates of a nearby Tardis written on each others backs - in imitation of what the revered chronicles of Rassilon say he did with Omega.

Time corridors are for inferior beings like Daleks.

And students. They're not proper Time Lords until they've graduated, after all.

It doesn't matter HOW they see things, the Doctor as a poodle would make the universe itself cry out in horror.

And the fairy mother would giggle at all the fuss the universe was making. The folklore is quite clear: fairies are dangerous in ways the Master could only dream of, especially when they're trying to be nice.

I (mercifully) can't imagine Hartnell sleeping with anyone, ever, married or not.

True, which does suggest adoption. As Sarah Jane and Luke demonstrated, it is possible to grow moderately fond of adopted relatives, which fits the Doctor and Susan well enough. She might actually be his fifth cousin twice removed, placed into his care after everyone more closely related had accidentally tripped up and fallen down the stairs, 13 times (not Susan's fault, of course).

Oh, and about the sharks - the Tardis normally lands on reasonably solid ground. Occasionally, she might land on a cliff edge or beach, just for variety, but she doesn't dump her thief in the middle of the open sea. If she landed on a ocean planet, she'd land on a ship or oil rig, or similar. In each case, the Doctor wouldn't be likely to get a close look at a shark.

Perhaps, if he went swimming in the sea for fun, or even surfing, he might run into a shark, but can you really imagine any of the Doctor's stripping down to their underwear and diving into the waves?

The Doctor's idea of nothing ever happening isn't quite the same as ours, as demonstrated by his visit to Van Gogh. He's quite capable of dismissing three days being chased by a grizzly bear as nothing much.

He's not, however, quite capable of going to enormous lengths to arrange a trip to a grizzly-bear-filled planet for a couple of rug-rats on the grounds that it's UTTERLY SAFE AND NOTHING DANGEROUS EVER HAPPENS.

Borusa would be quite happy to follow a million years of precedent, and drop the young Doctor and Master on a primitive world, fastened together by the sacred Prydonian handcuffs, with the coordinates of a nearby Tardis written on each others backs - in imitation of what the revered chronicles of Rassilon say he did with Omega.

Hmm. That's quite true.

But given that the Time Lords had totally forgotten that RASSILON LEFT A BLOODY BLACK HOLE UNDER THEIR FLOORBOARDS, they're unlikely to have retained cherished memories of his childhood pranks.

They're not proper Time Lords until they've graduated, after all.

Oh, I dunno - Drax seemed to be a Time Lord despite being rather touchy about not having acquired a doctorate (a doctorate SURELY being the lowliest possible qualification for a Time Lord - in fact, I seem to remember one of the novels suggesting THAT was how the Doc got his name, deliberately flaunting his incredibly low qualifications in everyone's face).

And we know the offspring of Time Lords were Time Tots from the cradle.

The folklore is quite clear: fairies are dangerous in ways the Master could only dream of, especially when they're trying to be nice.

Even the DREAM LORD couldn't think of anything more perverted to do to the Doc than put him in a jumper with a poodle on it. NOT actually turn him into a dawg.

Turning the Doctor into a CAT to keep him safe, I can TOTALLY picture. (Hell, the way he behaves, the Doc SHOULD be half-feline on his mother's side) but a dawg...no. Just...no.

As Sarah Jane and Luke demonstrated, it is possible to grow moderately fond of adopted relatives

MODERATELY FOND??? *Sigh* Obviously SOMEONE needs to rewatch The Gift, in which Sarah considers Luke's autistic existence to be WAY more important than the rest of the planet's...as she reiterates at two-minute intervals throughout.

Oh, and about the sharks - the Tardis normally lands on reasonably solid ground. Occasionally, she might land on a cliff edge or beach, just for variety, but she doesn't dump her thief in the middle of the open sea. If she landed on a ocean planet, she'd land on a ship or oil rig, or similar. In each case, the Doctor wouldn't be likely to get a close look at a shark.

True enough, except that I have no doubt whatsoever that within two minutes of him landing on said oil rig/ship a giant shark would materialise, Kroll-like, on the horizon...

can you really imagine any of the Doctor's stripping down to their underwear and diving into the waves?

Yes. Matt Smith. Admittedly I may be unduly influenced by Moffat's description of him as 'Patrick Moore in the body of an underwear model', or indeed by his striptease in the recent Children in Neeed...

He's not, however, quite capable of going to enormous lengths to arrange a trip to a grizzly-bear-filled planet for a couple of rug-rats on the grounds that it's UTTERLY SAFE AND NOTHING DANGEROUS EVER HAPPENS.

It wouldn't have to be grizzly bears every time; there are also avalanches and earthquakes. Besides, look at 'The Girl Who Waited'. The Doctor's idea of reasonable safety precautions is not ours.

But given that the Time Lords had totally forgotten that RASSILON LEFT A BLOODY BLACK HOLE UNDER THEIR FLOORBOARDS, they're unlikely to have retained cherished memories of his childhood pranks.

Doesn't follow. The location of the black hole would be a state secret; his childhood pranks wouldn't be.

Alternately, the tradition might have started a few years after Rassilon was entombed, when the first generation of Prydonians decided in a moment of drunken inspiration to re-enact what the rather dubious tell-all biographies claimed Rasssilon had done in his youth. The second generation copied their elder, and so a tradition was born, which survived long after the books that originally inspired it had been forgotten.

a doctorate SURELY being the lowliest possible qualification for a Time Lord

Did Romana ever claim a doctorate? The lowest academic qualification is actually bachelor of arts, while a doctorate is about as high as they go.

Even the DREAM LORD couldn't think of anything more perverted

But the dream lord was the Doctor's inner darkness made manifest. Like the Master, he could never be sufficiently deranged to think like a fairy. Remember, there are fairies who like dogs, in every possible sense of the word 'like'.

Turning the Doctor into a CAT to keep him safe, I can TOTALLY picture.

Do you think the Doctor would want it though? He might enjoy the experience for a few days, but not for a lifetime.

SOMEONE needs to rewatch The Gift, in which Sarah considers Luke's autistic existence to be WAY more important than the rest of the planet's.

As I've said before, moderately fond, though I understand you do have different standards down south, unfortunately.

I have no doubt whatsoever that within two minutes of him landing on said oil rig/ship a giant shark would materialise, Kroll-like, on the horizon...

Certainly possible, but we've never seen it happen, to the best of my knowledge, not in the series proper, the many books, the audios, or even the comics.

Thus, it's also possible the shark in Christmas Carol was the first one he'd seen close up. Since that helps explain his behaviour there, it becomes the preferred explanation.

Yes. Matt Smith. Admittedly I may be unduly influenced by Moffat's description

Probably, yes. He doesn't strike me as someone who does physical stuff for its own sake. He'd dive in to the sea to rescue a drowning child, but not for fun. And, to anticipate your next objection, if the child was being menaced by a shark, he'd just use the sonic screwdriver on it.

Besides, look at 'The Girl Who Waited'. The Doctor's idea of reasonable safety precautions is not ours.

You can hardly blame HIM for the fact Amy stupidly pressed the wrong button.

The location of the black hole would be a state secret; his childhood pranks wouldn't be.

Deadly Assassin honestly didn't give me the impression that the black hole was a state secret - that computer was happy to warble on about it at the drop of a hat - just that the Time Lords simply didn't BELIEVE this 'legend'. And never wondered where they got their power from. Presumably if stories of Rassilon's childhood pranks got passed through the generations, the Time Lords wouldn't believe THEM either.

Alternately, the tradition might have started a few years after Rassilon was entombed, when the first generation of Prydonians decided in a moment of drunken inspiration to re-enact what the rather dubious tell-all biographies claimed Rasssilon had done in his youth.

Oh, I doubt there were ANY biographies. The Time Lords, even THE DOCTOR, didn't have a clue whether Rassilon was dead or alive, their human-rights-loving saviour or a monster of cruelty...The Black Scrolls were SO out of print...

And let's face it, the most exciting thing THE DOCTOR AND THE MASTER could remember from their 200 (or whatever) Gallifreyan years was running around on some grass.

Did Romana ever claim a doctorate?

No, but if she only had a BA you can be sure the Doctor would have mentioned it during THIS scene:

ROMANA: I graduated from the Academy with a Triple First.

DOCTOR: I suppose you think that's good?

ROMANA: Well, it's better than scraping through with 51% on the second attempt.

DOCTOR: THAT INFORMATION IS CLASSIFIED!

The lowest academic qualification is actually bachelor of arts, while a doctorate is about as high as they go.

Dammit I wish I could remember WHICH book put the idea into my head that FOR GALLIFREY a doctorate was the lowest possible Academy qualification. Almost certainly a Justin Richards NA/Benny NA/MA with Braxiatel wandering around pretending to be the Doctor's brother (or, in light of the Smith and Jones revelations, actually BEING the Doctor's brother) and making disparaging remarks about him.

But it did make SENSE. On Gallifrey they probably put you through at least a century at the Academy, you'd want something more to show for it all than a BA.

Remember, there are fairies who like dogs, in every possible sense of the word 'like'.

There are? The only fairies I've seen (Small Worlds) liked kids - which is weird enough in itself, I'll admit - but I didn't see 'em fancying any DOGS. That was Captain John.

Turning the Doctor into a CAT to keep him safe, I can TOTALLY picture.

Do you think the Doctor would want it though? He might enjoy the experience for a few days, but not for a lifetime.

I thought you made it clear that the fairies wouldn't be consulting the Doctor on this particular issue. And actually, once he gets used to it, SOME of him would really relish becoming the Supreme Species of the Universe. Eccy, Tennant and Matt could enjoy dropping their Survivors' (oh, let's face it - Genociders') Guilt - cats don't waste time on this silly emotion. And Colin would REALLY come into his own as an oochie. Being smug and fat and colourful and self-centred works a LOT better for cats than for humanoids.

I have no doubt whatsoever that within two minutes of him landing on said oil rig/ship a giant shark would materialise, Kroll-like, on the horizon...

Certainly possible, but we've never seen it happen, to the best of my knowledge, not in the series proper, the many books, the audios, or even the comics.

Ah, but plenty of books and audios - all of 'em by Steve Lyons - star the genocidal shark-like Selachians. Even Captain Jack's met them - see 'Armoured Shark Liar' in Stealers of Dreams. (Alright, so in what Lyons fondly imagines to be a shock twist, they're more like dolphins inside all that shark armour, but that's beside the point.)

Thus, it's also possible the shark in Christmas Carol was the first one he'd seen close up. Since that helps explain his behaviour there, it becomes the preferred explanation.

This is THE DOCTOR we're talking about. Y'know...the guy who goes into paroxysms of delight at the sight of edible ball-bearings.

He doesn't strike me as someone who does physical stuff for its own sake.

True, he gets more than enough exercise from his job. (Except Colin, who really NEEDS that exercise bike.) And I haven't seen any Doc in swimming trunks whenever his Companions have foolishly bounded out of the TARDIS in bikinis, convinced he's taken them to some lovely effervescent seas...

You can hardly blame HIM for the fact Amy stupidly pressed the wrong button.

But you can blame him for not checking for quarantine warnings.

Oh, I doubt there were ANY biographies.

None survived to modern day Gallifrey; that doesn't mean there never were any. The point is, traditions can long outlast the events that inspired them. The Time Lords could easily have put new academy graduates through initiation rites hallowed by millions of years of tradition, with not a clue that the tradition started with a drunken party a mere generation after Rassilon.

No, but if she only had a BA you can be sure the Doctor would have mentioned

Not if he doesn't have a Gallifreyan doctorate himself. All his might be from human institutions.

On Gallifrey they probably put you through at least a century at the Academy, you'd want something more to show for it all than a BA.

The value isn't inherent in the name, but determined by how difficult it is to gain. If it takes a century for even the brightest to become a Bachelor of Temporal Mechanics, the title will feel worth the effort.

There are? The only fairies I've seen (Small Worlds) liked kids

I'm going by folklore, which the Small Worlds fairies matched well enough.

I thought you made it clear that the fairies wouldn't be consulting the Doctor on this particular issue.

Which is why he wouldn't be happy about having a fairy godmother - they would act as if they knew what was best for him, ignoring his protests.

This is THE DOCTOR we're talking about. Y'know...the guy who goes into paroxysms of delight at the sight of edible ball-bearings.

Which, circling back to the original point, is consistent with him enjoying the opportunity to stick his hand down a shark's throat.

But you can blame him for not checking for quarantine warnings.

That's just NOT HIM. Amy and Rory should KNOW that by now. If the planet was filthy and plague-ridden it ought to have broastcast a Sexy-detectable signal to that effect...

Haaaaang on. New Earth WAS broadcasting such a signal and the TARDIS TOTALLY failed to warn the Doctor about it. Either she's TRYING to get him killed (see, for backup evidence, her little trick with the radiation dial in The Daleks) or she REALLY wanted to see some cats again...

The Time Lords could easily have put new academy graduates through initiation rites hallowed by millions of years of tradition, with not a clue that the tradition started with a drunken party a mere generation after Rassilon.

Theoretically they could, but these are REALLY REALLY REALLY boring people. Even most of the Renegades (bar the Rani) concentrated on getting the hell out of there instead of cheering the place up with some drunken revelry.

No, but if she only had a BA you can be sure the Doctor would have mentioned

Not if he doesn't have a Gallifreyan doctorate himself. All his might be from human institutions.

WHAT!

BURN the blasphemer!

He's THE DOCTOR!

OF COURSE he has a PROPER doctorate, and I DON'T mean one he may or may not have acquired in Edinburgh in 18-whatever.

Anyway, didn't Drax huffily say 'Not everyone has a doctorate' to Tom. He'd've been VERY happy to point out that the Doc hadn't GOT a proper doctorate had that been the case.

he wouldn't be happy about having a fairy godmother - they would act as if they knew what was best for him, ignoring his protests.

Except that the only thing we KNOW about the Doctor's fairy godmother is that she gives him a really useful gadget...

...Checks quote. Hmm. We may have been arguing under a slight misapprehension:

'I thought you were just an embarrassing present from a dull godmother with two heads and bad breath. Twice.'

Guess she wasn't a fairy after all. Sorry about that.

circling back to the original point

We had an original point??

You can REMEMBER said original point???

is consistent with him enjoying the opportunity to stick his hand down a shark's throat.

Not unless the edible ballbearings were y'know, POISONED or AUTON BALLBEARINGS or something.

Either she's TRYING to get him killed ... or she REALLY wanted to see some cats again...

Or he didn't bother checking for warning signals. Quite often, he only gives the console a cursory glance before throwing open the doors.

Theoretically they could, but these are REALLY REALLY REALLY boring people.

They are now, but were they in Rassilon's day? Certainly the Time Lords we know from that period were remotely boring. It's quote possible that, in between inventing gravity and fighting the great vampires, they had the kind of parties where people wake up the next morning, handcuffed to a complete stranger on an unknown planet in an unknown time zone, wearing nothing but a purple party hat and a cat-faced mask.

OF COURSE he has a PROPER doctorate, and I DON'T mean one he may or may not have acquired in Edinburgh in 18-whatever.

To get a human doctorate, you have to do original research. For the academy, all they had to do was pass exams, as indicated by getting 51%. The original research is far more impressive.

He'd've been VERY happy to point out that the Doc hadn't GOT a proper doctorate had that been the case.

Drax has been out of touch. For all he knew, the Doctor would pull out a certificate showing he got one last time he was on Gallifrey.

You can REMEMBER said original point???

I can remember explaining regeneration to my attentive sisters 32 years ago, so a few days is nothing - and if I couldn't, it'd only take moments to scan the record of our conversation on this page.

Not unless the edible ballbearings were y'know, POISONED or AUTON BALLBEARINGS or something.

An analogy that would hold true were the shark a threat to the Doctor, but to him it was just as harmless as the ball bearings. Few mere animals would dare bite the Oncoming Storm, such is the authority in his gaze, and for the rest, he can react before they decide to act.

Or he didn't bother checking for warning signals. Quite often, he only gives the console a cursory glance before throwing open the doors.

In which case it's Sexy's fault for not having a big red (or, of course, mauve) light on the console that flashes in an extremely-visible-even-to-a-cursory-glance way if there's a plague warning.

Certainly the Time Lords we know from that period were remotely boring.

Did you mean 'weren't'? It's hard to tell, we only know Rassilon and Omega *strenuously ignoring implications of THAT line in Remembrance of the Daleks* and when we met 'em they'd lived for millions (or whatever) of years all alone, enough to send anyone interestingly nuts.

It's quote possible that, in between inventing gravity

I don't think they invented gravity, just black holes.

and fighting the great vampires

I suspect they may have been interesting until their first interesting act - ripping a hole in the fabric of space-time - nearly caused universal destruction. After a stint messing around with bowships they probably decided to get very boring, very fast.

they had the kind of parties where people wake up the next morning, handcuffed to a complete stranger on an unknown planet in an unknown time zone, wearing nothing but a purple party hat and a cat-faced mask.

Or, FAR more likely, they took a solemn vow never again to interfere in the affairs of others...

(Oh, OK, that only came after the Minyan fiasco, but maybe THAT happened earlier than expected, what with fledgling empires and suchlike rather unexpectedly being around at the dawn of time.)

To get a human doctorate, you have to do original research. For the academy, all they had to do was pass exams, as indicated by getting 51%. The original research is far more impressive.

Yeah, but how 'original' would the Doctor's research have been in nineteenth-century Scotland? Original for THEM, sure, but I doubt HE discovered anything he didn't know before...

...In fact, I just can't picture it. He'd be worse than Susan 'Yes I KNOW the ******* litmus paper turns blue Mr Chesterton so what's the ******* POINT?' Foreman.

And could he REALLY have studied medicine for YEARS and resisted the temptation to 'invent' a few millions-of-lives-saving tips? He might have started off all 'Not one line!' but surely the Doctor - THE DOCTOR! - would have ended up announcing that 'Time can be rewritten!', if not in full Time Lord Victorious mode.

Drax has been out of touch. For all he knew, the Doctor would pull out a certificate showing he got one last time he was on Gallifrey.

In which case wouldn't his reaction have been 'Oh, you FINALLY got a doctorate did you!' rather than his more resigned-sounding 'Oh yeah, I'd forgotten you like to be known by your title you ******' (well, I took that as Drax's SUBTEXT anyway).

An analogy that would hold true were the shark a threat to the Doctor, but to him it was just as harmless as the ball bearings.

Which bit of 'Two chances...Two arms!' are you slightly missing the point of...?

In which case it's Sexy's fault for not having a big red (or, of course, mauve) light on the console

Don't blame her; blame her Time Lord designers.

Did you mean 'weren't'? It's hard to tell, we only know Rassilon and Omega

That's enough to extrapolate from, especially since it would make little sense for the early Gallifreyans to be boring, not when they were still a young society.

I suspect they may have been interesting until their first interesting act nearly caused universal destruction. After a stint messing around with bowships they probably decided to get very boring, very fast.

Fast on an historical scale, perhaps, but even if they wiped out the Great Vampires in three days flat, and intervened on Minyos the next day, it'd still take a few months for things there to go horribly wrong - plenty of time for the new Time Lords to get up to all kinds of mischief, actually spawning dozens of stupid traditions.

In practice though, I can't see the period between ripping a hole in space-time and renouncing all intervention being much under 10 years, more likely a few centuries. Anything less, and things have to happen surprisingly fast.

Yeah, but how 'original' would the Doctor's research have been in nineteenth-century Scotland?

Medical 'doctorates' aren't the real thing; that's just a courtesy title. The Doctor doubtless has a proper one, a PhD or better, and there's not evidence it was from Scotland.

Anyway, the Doctor wouldn't cheat, not when there's nothing beyond his pride at stake.

I took that as Drax's SUBTEXT anyway

I took it more as 'you would have a doctorate by now, you jammy beggar.'

Which bit of 'Two chances...Two arms!' are you slightly missing the point of...?

The bit that makes you think the Doctor was actually serious, apparently. He does like his little jokes.

Don't blame her; blame her Time Lord designers.

Oh, c'mon! She's reconfigured herself a dozen times since the Time Lords had their grubby paws on her!

we only know Rassilon and Omega

That's enough to extrapolate from

It WOULD be, if they hadn't got good reasons for becoming STARK RAVING MAD by the time we meet them.

especially since it would make little sense for the early Gallifreyans to be boring, not when they were still a young society.

A young but totally male-dominated society, remember. They became sterile - in every sense of the word - the moment they kicked out the Pythian matriarchy. And yes, I know that's all NA decanonised nonsense, but the presence of a prophetic hag at the High Council table in End of Time suggests there was more than a grain of truth in it.

Yeah, but how 'original' would the Doctor's research have been in nineteenth-century Scotland?

Medical 'doctorates' aren't the real thing; that's just a courtesy title

Oh yeah, I forgot that.

The Doctor doubtless has a proper one, a PhD or better, and there's not evidence it was from Scotland.

His medical degree - IF it exists - is definitely from Glasgow, though. And in MY opinion medical degrees are PROPER doctorates and PhDs...aren't.

Anyway, the Doctor wouldn't cheat, not when there's nothing beyond his pride at stake.

He wouldn't DELIBERATELY cheat, but he can't unknow stuff about mould making antibiotics or whatever. Hell, even I know THAT.

I took it more as 'you would have a doctorate by now, you jammy beggar.'

Given that Deadly Assassin heavily implies the Doctor was scandalously expelled from the Academy...if YOUR interpretation was correct Drax should have sounded a LOT more surprised.

Which bit of 'Two chances...Two arms!' are you slightly missing the point of...?

The bit that makes you think the Doctor was actually serious, apparently. He does like his little jokes.

He certainly does! Freaking kids out by talking about face-spiders is TOTALLY the Doctor's little joke. Being trapped with a terrified kid he's TRYING to please in a cupboard with a shark attacking, it's considerably less likely that he's joking when he suggests he'll lose an arm if he STICKS IT DOWN THE SHARK'S GOB.

Oh, c'mon! She's reconfigured herself a dozen times since the Time Lords had their grubby paws on her!

But she hasn't transcended the limits imposed by her basic design. If she could do that, she'd have turned herself into a cat, on the outside.

if they hadn't got good reasons for becoming STARK RAVING MAD by the time we meet them.

Are jumping into black holes and running gladiatorial games the actions of dull people?

A young but totally male-dominated society, remember.

Like the Viking, you mean? They weren't boring, especially not to their neighbours.

And in MY opinion medical degrees are PROPER doctorates and PhDs...aren't.

Why? PhDs require original research, medical degrees book learning, and PhDs actually have 'doctor' in the name.

He wouldn't DELIBERATELY cheat, but he can't unknow stuff

For a PhD, he'd just choose a question he doesn't know off by heart, and refrain from looking up the answer in the Tardis data banks.

if YOUR interpretation was correct Drax should have sounded a LOT more surprised.

Only if he knew the Doctor had been expelled, but he's been out of touch.

it's considerably less likely that he's joking when he suggests he'll lose an arm if he STICKS IT DOWN THE SHARK'S GOB.

Only if he thinks the kid won't realise he's joking. He doesn't have much experience handling little children, so he can easily overestimate their joke-detecting abilities.

But she hasn't transcended the limits imposed by her basic design.

I hardly think a big flashing light would transcend the limitations of this near-infinite space-and-time-machine-with-a-soul. Quite apart from everything else, she now has hot-and-cold-taps and ketchup-bottles as an integral part of her console.

And, let's face it, if she could go all LEOPARDSKIN...

If she could do that, she'd have turned herself into a cat, on the outside.

She was DESTINED to be a big blue box. Anything else in the universe would be vastly improved by turning into a cat, but NOT THE TARDIS.

Are jumping into black holes and running gladiatorial games the actions of dull people?

I suspect they didn't so much JUMP into black holes as accidentally fall in. Still, have to confess I'd totally forgotten about the gladiatorial games - the only REMOTELY interesting-sounding sporting events in the universe's history. Still, the Time Lords were just boring observers when all's said and done, there wasn't any mention of THEM jumping into the Death Zone to participate...

A young but totally male-dominated society, remember.

Like the Viking, you mean? They weren't boring, especially not to their neighbours.

Actually Viking society wasn't remotely male-dominated. Their women got the vote in 930, for god's sake - almost a thousand years before any OTHER women did. Women ran farming and commerce while the men were off raping and pillaging. If a Viking got back after a year or two abroad to discover his wife had had a kid by one of her slaves, he accepted it. Why d'you think Iceland's Parliament is almost 50% female and they've got the world's first openly lesbian Presdient?

Whereas those Time Lords were cursed by the matriarchs - CURSED I tell you!

And in MY opinion medical degrees are PROPER doctorates and PhDs...aren't.

Why? PhDs require original research, medical degrees book learning, and PhDs actually have 'doctor' in the name.

I THINK it has something to do with the fact that 'Doctor'='Time Lord love of my life'. I can just about stretch the definition to include GP-types (especially since we learned that making-people-better doctors derive their name from HIM) but stretching it to people who've sat around for three years investigating the life-cycle of a termite (or whatever) is a bit much.

For a PhD, he'd just choose a question he doesn't know off by heart, and refrain from looking up the answer in the Tardis data banks.

Riiiight, and the fact that he could, thanks to his super-duper Time Lord powers, read ANY human book on his chosen subject in ANY language in THREE SECONDS FLAT wouldn't in any way be considered cheating...?

Only if [Drax] knew the Doctor had been expelled, but he's been out of touch.

I suspect that Drax was at the Academy failing to acquire a doctorate for long after the Doctor had scarpered with Susan, the Nemesis and the Hand of Omega tucked under his arm. After all, Drax MUST have been travelling for less time than the Doc if all he'd ever managed to do was get banged up in Brixton Prison and become the Shadow's stooge.

He doesn't have much experience handling little children, so he can easily overestimate their joke-detecting abilities.

He doesn't NEED any experience with rug-rats, the Doc's practically a great big kid himself. I suspect he'd KNOW that 'joking' about losing arms to the kid cowering in a cupboard from the GIANT SHARK would be a step too far.

Plus, Tom said he was always great with kids (Full Circle) so there were probably loads of mercifully-unfilmed adventures involving the Doctor and ankle-biters.

I hardly think a big flashing light would transcend the limitations of this near-infinite space-and-time-machine-with-a-soul.

One of those limitations is that her internal appearance is under her pilot's control, and The Doctor doesn't want big flashing warning lights. That'd spoil his fun.

Still, the Time Lords were just boring observers when all's said and done,

And yet, they fought the Great Vampires.

Actually Viking society wasn't remotely male-dominated.

Norse society wasn't, but the people at home weren't vikings. It's more a job description than a nationality, like saying bankers are male-dominated.

Anyway, male dominated societies are notorious for proving their masculinity by fighting their neighbours - not the behaviour of modern Time Lords, but it might match up with the First Great Time War.

I THINK it has something to do with the fact that 'Doctor'='Time Lord love of my life'.

But the Doctor has said he's not a medical doctor, and claimed to have a degree in practically everything. That sounds like a bunch of PhDs to me.

Riiiight, and the fact that he could, thanks to his super-duper Time Lord powers, read ANY human book ...

Pick a topic where no human knows the answer, necessary for a PhD thesis, and reading every human book in the world won't help one bit.

After all, Drax MUST have been travelling for less time than the Doc

Only if the same amount of time passes for all Time Lords between meetings, wherever they are. It's a popular theory, but the evidence is unclear.

I suspect he'd KNOW that 'joking' about losing arms to the kid cowering in a cupboard from the GIANT SHARK would be a step too far.

When I was a kid, that kind of blithe unconcern would have been reassuring.

Tom said he was always great with kids (Full Circle)

Not quite everything the Doctor says is true, especially when he's complimenting himself.

One of those limitations is that her internal appearance is under her pilot's control

It's WHAT!

Since WHEN!

She LOCKED MATT OUT and reconfigured her interior all by herself. And judging by 'What have you got for me this time' it wasn't the first time.

and The Doctor doesn't want big flashing warning lights. That'd spoil his fun.

Nonsense! They're second only to Big Red Buttons in PROVIDING him with fun! (Or would be if the TARDIS bloody HAD one. It's not as if a quarantine warning would STOP him landing somewhere and sorting the place out, he'd just take vaguely responsible precautions - i.e. if the plague only attacks two-hearted people sending the Companions out, if it's radiation providing some pills. That sort of thing.)

Still, the Time Lords were just boring observers when all's said and done,

And yet, they fought the Great Vampires.

Well, they HAD to, the vampires ATTACKED 'em. Presumably a LOT of Time Lords tried not fighting back, bowing and scraping like Kelner, but they were the ones who didn't survive.

Oh, wait...maybe it WAS the ones who stayed cowering at home who survived and ALL the heroic warriors bar Rassilon died nobly. Survival of the LEAST fit. THAT would explain the subsequent general patheticness of the Time Lord gene-pool.

Norse society wasn't, but the people at home weren't vikings. It's more a job description than a nationality, like saying bankers are male-dominated.

Oh yeah, forgot that minor point.

So can you speak of a Viking 'society' any more than than you can speak of a banking one?

Anyway, male dominated societies are notorious for proving their masculinity by fighting their neighbours - not the behaviour of modern Time Lords, but it might match up with the First Great Time War.

But what WAS the First Great Time War, exactly? Doubt it was the wars against the Vampires and Carrionites, since there's no evidence THEY had time-travel...and I doubt there were loads of other Time Lord v Dalek wars invisible to us lesser species cos the DOCTOR would have been involved, all right...

But the Doctor has said he's not a medical doctor

Only when he was trying to wriggle out of chopping people's arms off. On other occasions he DID vaguely claim to have a medical degree.

and claimed to have a degree in practically everything.

No, he claimed to be qualified in practically everything. The Doctor would be the first to say that PRACTICAL qualifications are the ones that count.

Riiiight, and the fact that he could, thanks to his super-duper Time Lord powers, read ANY human book ...

Pick a topic where no human knows the answer, necessary for a PhD thesis, and reading every human book in the world won't help one bit.

But there must be SOME written work on every subject under the sun by now...and if he was doing a PhD in English or History or something (let's face it, to preserve the Web of Time he'd BETTER stay away from science subjects) he'd have no CHOICE but to read stuff.

After all, Drax MUST have been travelling for less time than the Doc

Only if the same amount of time passes for all Time Lords between meetings, wherever they are. It's a popular theory, but the evidence is unclear.

If not, the Doctor and Master ALWAYS meeting in the right order (give or take the EDA Legacy of the Daleks which even, pathetically, has the Doctor whispering 'Gosh, that's funny, we shouldn't meet out of order' to the nearest human on spotting the Master) would be a STAGGERING coincidence. Alright, so staggering coincidences are the Whoniverse's forte but still, there's ENOUGH evidence for this 'popular theory' to take it as read until proven otherwise.

When I was a kid, that kind of blithe unconcern would have been reassuring.

Obviously you were a tougher brat than Little Kazran, not surprising given how often his daddy smacks the hell out of him.

Not quite everything the Doctor says is true, especially when he's complimenting himself.

Matt may be a pathological liar, but EVERY SINGLE WORD Tom says is true, ESPECIALLY the ones complimenting himself!

She LOCKED MATT OUT and reconfigured her interior all by herself. And judging by 'What have you got for me this time' it wasn't the first time.


With his approval. He can change the desktop theme any time he likes, but he enjoys a surprise.

Survival of the LEAST fit. THAT would explain the subsequent general patheticness of the Time Lord gene-pool.

Assuming they're reproducing naturally, yes. Alternatively, I can see Rassilon taking steps to ensure that none of his successors would be up to his standards, just to ensure he'd always be the greatest Time Lord. Obviously, it didn't quite work, since the Doctor is greater, but it seems like something he's egotistical enough to try.

So can you speak of a Viking 'society' any more than than you can speak of a banking one?

Of course. Any group of people who spend a lot of time together can be referred to as a society, classic Doctor Who fandom, for instance. Do we not have a common bond, 16 years of shared adversity, making us a distinctive sub-group of the larger society?

But there must be SOME written work on every subject under the sun by now

True, but that doesn't mean the answer to any particular question can be found within it. If the Doctor feels like finding and describing a new species of fossil cat without resorting to the Tardis databanks or time travel, no human book will help, because no human has ever laid eyes on such a fossil, yet. The Doctor would have to dig it up himself, while simultaneously fighting an alien invasion.

If not, the Doctor and Master ALWAYS meeting in the right order would be a STAGGERING coincidence.

No, meeting in the same order isn't the same as meeting after the same time span. The time between Mark of the Rani and Survival could have been 8 years for the Doctor, but 74 for the Master. That way, the Doctor's various visits to Gallifrey could have been a few hundred years apart, their time, which makes more sense than Borusa regenerating every five minutes.

but EVERY SINGLE WORD Tom says is true, ESPECIALLY the ones complimenting himself!

Didn't Romana catch him lying about his age? I seem to recall K-9 catching him out a few times too.

She LOCKED MATT OUT and reconfigured her interior all by herself. And judging by 'What have you got for me this time' it wasn't the first time.

With his approval. He can change the desktop theme any time he likes, but he enjoys a surprise.

Sure he does, but the point is, she drastically changed things around (compare n'contrast console rooms in, say, Unearthly Child, Masque of Mandragora, Five Doctors, telemovie, and Beast Below) and she could have got a bloody big flashing light if she and/or the Doctor had WANTED a big flashing light.

It would ALMOST CERTAINLY have been less trouble than turning Rose Tyler into a Bad Wolf Goddess.

Assuming they're reproducing naturally, yes. Alternatively, I can see Rassilon taking steps to ensure that none of his successors would be up to his standards, just to ensure he'd always be the greatest Time Lord.

Oh, he didn't need to sabotage the future of his species for THAT - he obviously had a GREAT PR team.

And his nasty little immortality trick suggested he was quite a bit more discerning about who he was trying to sabotage.

Obviously, it didn't quite work, since the Doctor is greater

*Rapturous sigh* He really is, isn't he? Even Rassilon realises it, or he wouldn't have made the survival of Gallifrey take second place to discovering what the Doctor felt like doing next.

Any group of people who spend a lot of time together can be referred to as a society, classic Doctor Who fandom, for instance. Do we not have a common bond, 16 years of shared adversity, making us a distinctive sub-group of the larger society?

I don't think of us as a 'society' at all. A REALLY dysfunctional family, more like...

If the Doctor feels like finding and describing a new species of fossil cat without resorting to the Tardis databanks or time travel, no human book will help, because no human has ever laid eyes on such a fossil, yet. The Doctor would have to dig it up himself, while simultaneously fighting an alien invasion.

But surely the Doc would either be cheating by relying on his Time Lord knowledge of said oochie (a DEAD oochie! As if the Doctor would waste years of his life trying to find one when, let's face it, he SHAMEFULLY neglects the real live purring type) OR he'd be relying on some human's speculation about their existence.

meeting in the same order isn't the same as meeting after the same time span. The time between Mark of the Rani and Survival could have been 8 years for the Doctor, but 74 for the Master.

That's a point - other than the Doctor announcing that he and the Rani were exactly the same age (953, I think...oh look, a can full of worms) in Time and the Rani. He'd only KNOW this if he was CERTAIN they'd always meet after the same length of time.

That way, the Doctor's various visits to Gallifrey could have been a few hundred years apart, their time, which makes more sense than Borusa regenerating every five minutes.

It really would, wouldn't it. AND it would make a BIT more sense of the Arc claim they'd 'long abolished the death penalty' when they were cheerily planning on vaporising the doc in Deadly Assassin. (Though 'long' should mean HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of years for Time Lord society. Still, a few centuries would be better than a few YEARS.)

Though bear in mind that this WAS the period when Faction Paradox were rising in power. And maybe Borusa was experimenting on himself to try to gain immortality. Or the batteries on his personal forceshield kept going flat whenever someone decided to assassinate him. Or his robes tripped him up whenever he was running up and down those millions of Gallifreyan stairs...

Didn't Romana catch him lying about his age?

Nope. Tom was remarkably consistent about his age as far as I can remember, considering that a) he's a time-traveller who visits planets with different length years, and b) he's THE DOCTOR who in his Pertwee days was claiming to be several thousand years old. Sure, occasionally he might claim to be 749 when really he's 753 or something, but that's only to persuade villains not to execute him on the grounds that life begins at 750...

I seem to recall K-9 catching him out a few times too.

Unsuccessfully trying to cheat at chess doesn't count as LYING.

she could have got a bloody big flashing light if she and/or the Doctor had WANTED a big flashing light.

If tehy both wanted one, yes. The Doctor clearly allows the Tardis free rein in her internal decoration, but I'm pretty sure the Time Lords would design their vehicles to be incapable of overriding their pilot's wishes. When the Tardis appears to, it's only because the Doctor lets her.

But surely the Doc would either be cheating ... relying on some human's speculation about their existence.

That wouldn't give him any unfair advantage over humans, so wouldn't be cheating.

Thinking further, I'd say it was Hartnell who got all the degrees. A few decades in human academia would be an half-way step between the tedium of Gallifrey and his subsequent lifestyle, giving him a chance to adjust, and he could have parked Susan somewhere, so it'd be several decades for him but a handful of days for her.

That's a point - other than the Doctor announcing that he and the Rani were exactly the same age (953, I think...oh look, a can full of worms) in Time and the Rani

A can of worms indeed, but he was still recovering from his regeneration, so he may have been a touch confused. Think how long it took him to realise the Rani wasn't actually Mel.

If Borusa was really regenerating every five minutes, the Doctor should have showed some concern about his favourite teacher's frequent deaths. He never did.

that's only to persuade villains not to execute him on the grounds that life begins at 750...

A lie is still a lie, however good the excuse. However, assuming Tom was telling the truth, that doesn't mean he was right. There are plenty of people who think they're great with children, but actually terrify them. It's also quite possible that the Doctor has forgotten a few things during the intervening seven regenerations.

I'm pretty sure the Time Lords would design their vehicles to be incapable of overriding their pilot's wishes.

Now you mention it, that's EXACTLY what the presumptuous gits would do. Luckily they're grotesquely incompetent and she's had 700 years (or whatever) of freedom in the company of an anarchist so I can't seriously imagine that if she wants a big flashing button - or, indeed, if she wants to pop open her console to turn people into eggs - she won't manage it.

When the Tardis appears to, it's only because the Doctor lets her.

LETS her?? She's not his battered wife, y'know...

...Alright, so she IS his battered wife, but SHE decides what her innards are going to look like, and if HE doesn't like it he can whinge about her lack of imagination at making everything white (*sigh* ah, the good old days) and get out the paintbrushes himself.

And she doesn't take any OTHER kind of order from him EITHER. Like where to GO.

relying on some human's speculation about their existence.

That wouldn't give him any unfair advantage over humans, so wouldn't be cheating.

He'd presumably have sped-read about it in the first place, though, AND sped-and-multilingually-read up on everything ABOUT said speculation.

I'd say it was Hartnell who got all the degrees. A few decades in human academia would be an half-way step between the tedium of Gallifrey and his subsequent lifestyle

Yeah, all the others have too low boredom thresholds (at least until you get to The Cricketer, and he was claiming to be a proper doctor before then), while Hartnell actually LIKES some peace and quiet.

On the other hand, he did seem contemptuous and annoyed about Susan's desire for a human education.

he was still recovering from his regeneration, so he may have been a touch confused

Though the code was actually CORRECT and it's a lot more likely the Rani would use her own age as the password rather than the Doctor's.

Though of course I'm happy to pass the WHOLE of Time and the Rani off as some confused post-regenerative nightmare.

If Borusa was really regenerating every five minutes, the Doctor should have showed some concern about his favourite teacher's frequent deaths. He never did.

Why should he? Borusa held him in mild contempt, AND he didn't think of regeneration as 'death' in those days.

However, assuming Tom was telling the truth, that doesn't mean he was right. There are plenty of people who think they're great with children, but actually terrify them.

But...he's TOM. The human Tom Baker couldn't leave his house without being surrounded by a mob of adoring kids, how could his Time Lord self - who always had the Scarf on to make himself even more adorable - possibly have NOT been a hit with the munchkins?

It's also quite possible that the Doctor has forgotten a few things during the intervening seven regenerations.

The Doctor's GREAT with kids, OK? (Except those evil imaginary ones in Mind Robber, obviously.) It's a knack. Even ECCY'S got it, for heaven's sake.

Now you mention it, that's EXACTLY what the presumptuous gits would do.

And the Doctor has never even read the Tardis manual. He may have turned off the pilot's override, so she can decorate herself, but ripping out the whole system, so he can't override her at all, would be beyond him.

If Six had decided to decorate the Tardis walls to match his coat, she wouldn't have been able to stop him, though she might have 'accidentally' stranded him in Milton Keynes.

He'd presumably have sped-read about it in the first place, though, AND sped-and-multilingually-read up on everything ABOUT said speculation.

That only compensates for not doing an undergraduate course the normal way; it doesn't give him an unfair advantage.

On the other hand, he did seem contemptuous and annoyed about Susan's desire for a human education.

There is a slight difference between O'levels, or whatever it was in those days, and PhDs. By Time Lord standards, Susan was doing the equivalent of learning to fasten her shoes and write her name, nursery-level stuff, making the Doctor's attitude understandable. The Doctor, on the other hand, was doing the equivalent of taking a course on history at the local sixth form college, much more respectable.

Though the code was actually CORRECT and it's a lot more likely the Rani would use her own age as the password rather than the Doctor's.

Or she could have used the last three digits of her birth date, like you using 977 as a password, and the Doctor misspoke. He meant to say they were born the same year rather than that they were the same age, but it's easy enough to mix the two concepts up, especially when still recovering from regeneration.

Why should he? Borusa held him in mild contempt

But the Doctor actually respected Borusa, as much as he respects anyone, and he'd be well aware that frequent regenerations implied frequent near death experiences.

Certainly, it's possible that he didn't say anything because the crisis of the day was distracting him, but it's equally possible that the Gallifrey visits were a few centuries apart, from their perspective.

how could his Time Lord self ... possibly have NOT been a hit with the munchkins?

Children are notorious for sensing things adults can't, and for being more willing to believe strange truths. Adults tell themselves there's no such thing as aliens, so this eccentric man must be human, even though is body language is subtly off (No mere human can smile as toothily as Four). Children notice the same thing, and immediately assume he's a tentacled monstrosity wearing a suit of stolen human skin - so my experience with my nieces, and my own childhood memories, tells me quite clearly.

By the same token, children are also much more likely to pick up on the cloud of death and disaster hanging behind the Doctor.

And the Doctor has never even read the Tardis manual.

Well, SOMETIMES he's never read the TARDIS manual. Other times he's chucked it into a supernova cos he didn't like it. Other times he's never had one in the first place.

He may have turned off the pilot's override, so she can decorate herself

Your reading of who holds the balanace of power in that relationship is bizarre, given how many times the Doctor ends up where HE wants, and how many times the Doctor ends up where SHE wants.

Look, why can't you just admit that the power which can turn people into vengeful gods could also create a big red flashing light?

If Six had decided to decorate the Tardis walls to match his coat, she wouldn't have been able to stop him

Really? Cos I've got a fiver that says she COULD.

And the very fact that the TARDIS walls DON'T match that coat backs me up. (And thanks for THAT particular image, by the way, though I suppose I should be grateful at finally realising that hey, the Colin Baker era COULD have been worse after all.)

though she might have 'accidentally' stranded him in Milton Keynes.

Or, of course, 'accidentally' smashed his head against her console to force a regeneration...

...All this time the NAs have been blaming poor old McCoy while the REAL culprit was right under their noses...

That only compensates for not doing an undergraduate course the normal way; it doesn't give him an unfair advantage.

His BRAIN gives him an unfair advantage! I might as well go into a class of five-year-olds and show them how much better at reading I am...

There is a slight difference between O'levels, or whatever it was in those days, and PhDs.

There is to us mere humans. I doubt there would be to a Time Lord, especially a Hartnellian one stuck in 'humans are inconvenient insignificant insects' mode.

Or she could have used the last three digits of her birth date, like you using 977 as a password, and the Doctor misspoke.

That's a possibility but it's more likely that the Doctor was just telling the truth so I'll stick with the Time-Lords-meet-when-the-same-amount-of-time-has-elapsed theory until there's some real evidence against it (River Song is NOT A PROPER TIME LORD, OK?).

But the Doctor actually respected Borusa, as much as he respects anyone, and he'd be well aware that frequent regenerations implied frequent near death experiences.

Just because the Doctor respects Borusa doesn't mean he's gonna get all SOPPY about him. For one thing, there's a lot of resentment mixed in with the respect - don't tell me Tom didn't enjoy treating the Chancellor - sorry, CARDINAL - like dirt in Invasion of Time.

For another thing, this is OLD WHO we're talking about. He wouldn't tell Leela he'd miss her to her face. He wouldn't lift a finger to keep Romana II or Sarah. He hadn't discovered 'happy crying' and 'burning up a sun to say goodbye' and howling 'KILL ME TOO!' whenever an extra bit the dust.

it's equally possible that the Gallifrey visits were a few centuries apart, from their perspective.

In which case, shouldn't someone have broken the news that 'Leela croaked CENTURIES ago, Doc' instead of mumbling that she's very happy in Arc?

(No mere human can smile as toothily as Four).

*Grins ALMOST as toothily as Tom at the thought* •••• right.

By the same token, children are also much more likely to pick up on the cloud of death and disaster hanging behind the Doctor.

And you're claiming this wouldn't attract the bloodythirsty little bug-, er, darlings even MORE?

Your reading of who holds the balanace of power in that relationship is bizarre

Theory and practice can easily be wildly different; just look at the Queen. In theory, she's the one in charge; in practice, she does whatever the PM says.

The Tardis is much the same. The Time Lords designed her to be a slave, but the Doctor generously allows her to do as she wants, even if it's inconvenient for him.

I doubt there would be to a Time Lord, especially a Hartnellian one stuck in 'humans are inconvenient insignificant insects' mode.

And yet, he definitely spent time in medical school at some point pretty early on. If it wasn't Hartnell, it would have to be Troughton, which seems rather less likely.

I'll stick with the Time-Lords-meet-when-the-same-amount-of-time-has-elapsed theory until there's some real evidence against it

Look at the Master. After he fled the Time War he spent 50-ish years as a human. If that theory is true, that implies the Time War lasted for nearly fifty years after the Master fled, since it ended not long before we first saw Nine, but the way they talk about events gives the distinct impression the Master fled when the Time War was nearly over, not fifty-ish years before the end.

We could also try estimating the elapsed time between the Master's death and rebirth for both of them, next time one of us watches the Tennant years.

In which case, shouldn't someone have broken the news that 'Leela croaked CENTURIES ago, Doc'

She has the benefit of Gallifreyan medicine.

And you're claiming this wouldn't attract the bloodythirsty little bug-, er, darlings even MORE?

It'd attract them, but that's not quite the same as being good with kids. If they're following the Doctor around because they want to see the sky weep blood and the earth scream in impotent rage, they're rather more likely to try and provoke him into starting the apocalypse early than they are to actually listen to what he's saying.

Theory and practice can easily be wildly different; just look at the Queen. In theory, she's the one in charge; in practice, she does whatever the PM says.

No, no, in theory AND in practice she's a figurehead. It'll be interesting to see what happens when (several decades after Battlefield predicted it) Prince Charles acquires the throne cos he doesn't quite GET this.

The Tardis is much the same. The Time Lords designed her to be a slave, but the Doctor generously allows her to do as she wants, even if it's inconvenient for him.

Ha ha ha ha ha! 'Generously allows!'

And yet, he definitely spent time in medical school at some point pretty early on. If it wasn't Hartnell, it would have to be Troughton, which seems rather less likely.

*Sigh* You're right, you're right...

*Pause*

Is it too late to do the u-turn of my life and start believing in those Morbius faces...?

Look at the Master. After he fled the Time War he spent 50-ish years as a human. If that theory is true, that implies the Time War lasted for nearly fifty years after the Master fled, since it ended not long before we first saw Nine, but the way they talk about events gives the distinct impression the Master fled when the Time War was nearly over, not fifty-ish years before the end.

Well, the Dalek Emperor MIGHT have taken the Cruciform right at the beginning of the War in a surprise attack. That might help explain how the two sides were so equally balanced despite the Time Lords having the Doctor on their side.

Plus, the Master becoming a human OBVIOUSLY rendered the Time-Lords-meeting-in-order thing null and void. Just as River being part-human did.

In which case, shouldn't someone have broken the news that 'Leela croaked CENTURIES ago, Doc'

She has the benefit of Gallifreyan medicine.

That's true, and the Gallifrey audios DID claim Leela acquired eternal youth until Gallifrey got blown up or something.

But honestly, why would Time Lords go to all the trouble (and they're pretty slow n'thick, it would be a LOT of trouble) to find a cure for human ageing so the uninvited savage could extend her unwelcome stay, when judging by the whining about their hips and stuff they'd signally failed to do so for THEMSELVES?

If they're following the Doctor around because they want to see the sky weep blood and the earth scream in impotent rage, they're rather more likely to try and provoke him into starting the apocalypse early than they are to actually listen to what he's saying.

It doesn't matter WHY they're following him like he's the Pied Piper (and he almost certainly wouldn't start the apocalypse just to please 'em) - as long as they're padding along adoringly at his heels they'll absorb SOME sort of courage, intelligence, and obsessive-compulsive disorder just by osmosis.

Ha ha ha ha ha! 'Generously allows!'

Well, he doesn't look grudging to me.

The basic point is that the Time Lords would undoubtedly have given the pilot absolute control over his Tardis. The Doctor clearly doesn't exercise that, but I can't see him altering her fundamental programming when he's never even read the manual.

Is it too late to do the u-turn of my life and start believing in those Morbius faces...?

It's never too late to see sense.

That might help explain how the two sides were so equally balanced despite the Time Lords having the Doctor on their side.

Can you really see a stalemate lasting 50 years with the Doctor involved? He simply doesn't have enough patience for that.

Plus, the Master becoming a human OBVIOUSLY rendered the Time-Lords-meeting-in-order thing null and void.

They still met in the right order; the question is whether they met after the same elapsed time, but I'll concede being temporarily human might be a loophole.

Another example then. There are only a few weeks between Time Meddler and Dalek Masterplan for the Doctor. The way the Monk talks, it sounds like it was at least slightly longer for him.

But honestly, why would Time Lords go to all the trouble to find a cure for human ageing

As Ian and Barbara demonstrate, curing human ageing is so trivial it can be done by accident. With K-9 on the job, Leela was probably immortal 2 minutes after the Doctor left her.

Obviously, curing Time Lord ageing is harder, but that'll be because of Rassilon. He didn't approve of immortality for his people, so he'll have made sure they had no easy route to it, but he doesn't care about humans.

as long as they're padding along adoringly at his heels they'll absorb SOME sort of courage, intelligence, and obsessive-compulsive disorder just by osmosis.

True, but that doesn't mean they'll be able to tell when he's just joking about losing both arms. If they're only watching him in the hope something exciting happens, they might actually be disappointed when the shark doesn't bite.

Ha ha ha ha ha! 'Generously allows!'

Well, he doesn't look grudging to me.

You don't think yelling 'YOU NEVER TAKE ME WHERE I NEED TO GO!!', hitting her repeatedly with a hammer, and whining 'You're not my mother' might, perhaps, be a tiny bit on the 'grudging' side...?

The basic point is that the Time Lords would undoubtedly have given the pilot absolute control over his Tardis.

They undoubtedly THOUGHT they had. Losers.

I can't see him altering her fundamental programming when he's never even read the manual.

He wouldn't have to. She did it all herself. (In fact, given that the Beautiful Idiot doesn't seem to REALISE that Sexy's snapped her bonds and is under the delusion that she's just a bit broken-down, it's quite shocking that he's happy to think he's keeping her as a slave and not even TRY to hand over control of her own body. Maybe, deep down, he's always KNOWN what's going on - Davison did, after all, say 'She's more than a machine, she needs coaxing, persuading...')

Is it too late to do the u-turn of my life and start believing in those Morbius faces...?

It's never too late to see sense.

I tried, I TRIED, but sadly I find even the thought of the First Doctor sitting through a few years of university without beating his human instructors to death with a rock to be more convincing than the idea that he's NOT the First Doctor.

Can you really see a stalemate lasting 50 years with the Doctor involved? He simply doesn't have enough patience for that.

Agreed. He probably wasted a few years doing this ridiculous fighting-on-the-front-line thing, but FIFTY years...no.

Another example then. There are only a few weeks between Time Meddler and Dalek Masterplan for the Doctor. The way the Monk talks, it sounds like it was at least slightly longer for him.

The Monk's the whinging type who'd regard a weekend stranded in the eleventh century as the equivalent of YEARS of misery...

OK, not really convincing myself here, he can't possibly have whipped up a replacement component for his TARDIS THAT fast...

Right. YEARS passed between Time Meddler and Masterplan for the Monk AND for the Doctor. (The more time that passes for Hartnell BETWEEN the adventures we see, the fewer years pass for him pre-Unearthly Child, and therefore the easier it is to cope with the 'Did Susan hang around with him for 200 years?!' question.)

There are, after all, several novels and audios describing unseen adventures. Admittedly I don't remember any of 'em lasting several years, but then they were so bloody boring I don't remember ANYTHING about them.

Plus, Steven's a future space-pilot, he probably got a few anti-ageing shots or something.

Does anyone remember whether the on-screen stories segue seemlessly into each other (in which case I'm screwed)?

As Ian and Barbara demonstrate, curing human ageing is so trivial it can be done by accident.

Yeah, and the odds of a similar accident causing such a happy outcome instead of a hideous mutation are...remote.

With K-9 on the job, Leela was probably immortal 2 minutes after the Doctor left her.

In which case, why didn't K9 invent immortality when he was WORKING IN A HOSPITAL?

Obviously, curing Time Lord ageing is harder, but that'll be because of Rassilon. He didn't approve of immortality for his people, so he'll have made sure they had no easy route to it, but he doesn't care about humans.

I don't think Rassilon would have had a major problem with Time Lords holding back the ageing process for a few more centuries. He was fine with 'em having thousands of years of life, providing it got shaken up a bit every now and then. Being IMMORTAL seems to be fundamentally different.

True, but that doesn't mean they'll be able to tell when he's just joking about losing both arms. If they're only watching him in the hope something exciting happens, they might actually be disappointed when the shark doesn't bite.

Well, that's fine, cos in MY opinion the Doctor WASN'T joking about losing both arms...

You don't think yelling 'YOU NEVER TAKE ME WHERE I NEED TO GO!!', hitting her repeatedly with a hammer, and whining 'You're not my mother' might, perhaps, be a tiny bit on the 'grudging' side...?

Well, to a minuscule degree, but if he was serious, he'd try to actually do something about it, and given how tough she is, the hammers don't count as more than tickling her. The Doctor doesn't spend his years sulking about how disobedient his beloved Tardis is; he just has occasional moody moments.

find even the thought of the First Doctor sitting through a few years of university without beating his human instructors to death with a rock to be more convincing than the idea that he's NOT the First Doctor.

A pretty sound argument. Maybe he did a dozen degrees at once, under an assortment of false names. That'd satisfy his feelings of superiority, since no human could manage that, and account for his wide knowledge of things they're unlikely to teach on Gallifrey.

Does anyone remember whether the on-screen stories segue seamlessly into each other (in which case I'm screwed)?

Fortunately for you, 'Mission to the Unknown' is in the middle of this period. The stories on either side segue seamlessly into it, but since the Tardis crew were absent this doesn't tell us how long the gap between Galaxy Four and Mythmakers was.

On the other hand, Vicki doesn't seem to age noticeably over this period. Did she have anti-ageing shots too?

In which case, why didn't K9 invent immortality when he was WORKING IN A HOSPITAL?

He hadn't been exposed to Gallifreyan technology. It'd help that Leela was soaked in artron energy too; we know from Torchwood that boosts the immune system, which helps.

I don't think Rassilon would have had a major problem with Time Lords holding back the ageing process for a few more centuries.

It's a route to immortality, if they can keep on doing it. However, all the old-looking Time Lords we've seen may have already benefited from centuries of slowed ageing. Consider, the Doctor appears to age at a roughly human rate during each regeneration, yet all indications are normal Time Lords only regenerate every few centuries.

Either the Doctor ages unusually fast, or all the other Time Lords are popping anti-ageing pills, increasing their lifespans ten-fold, Hartnell and Susan probably took them too, until the Tardis ran out.

Well, that's fine, cos in MY opinion the Doctor WASN'T joking about losing both arms...

I suppose there's just enough wriggle room for your creative interpretation, but I remain unconvinced.

if he was serious, he'd try to actually do something about it

He's barely capable of keeping her patched up and on the road. Enslaving her is WAY beyond him and he knows it.

The Doctor doesn't spend his years sulking about how disobedient his beloved Tardis is; he just has occasional moody moments.

Yeah, but he has quite a LOT of occasional moody moments.

Maybe he did a dozen degrees at once, under an assortment of false names. That'd satisfy his feelings of superiority, since no human could manage that, and account for his wide knowledge of things they're unlikely to teach on Gallifrey.

Though it would be amazing that none of HIS tutors went poking around in that junkyard. Either Barbara and Ian are exceptionally nosy, or...oh. You don't think I M Foreman's is strewn with the rotting corpses of Hartnell's victims, do you?

On the other hand, Vicki doesn't seem to age noticeably over this period. Did she have anti-ageing shots too?

Yeah, why not? She obviously had brain-enhancing shots ('obviously' from the fact she went to school for an hour a week, not from her actual BEHAVIOUR. Obviously.) so why not anti-ageing ones too?

In which case, why didn't K9 invent immortality when he was WORKING IN A HOSPITAL?

He hadn't been exposed to Gallifreyan technology.

What, the sort of Gallifreyan technology that the Fourth Doctor dismissed as 'antiquated junk'?

the Doctor appears to age at a roughly human rate during each regeneration, yet all indications are normal Time Lords only regenerate every few centuries.

Yes...though the Doctor does lead a remarkably stressful life. And DOESN'T age during his two-hundred-year Farewell Tour...(assuming he wasn't LYING about that.)

He's barely capable of keeping her patched up and on the road.

That's just the way he likes things. He's the Oncoming Storm; little indeed is beyond him.

Though it would be amazing that none of HIS tutors went poking around in that junkyard.

Not when Hartnell looked over 40. It's one thing to be concerned about a child, another to start investigating an adult.

Yeah, why not? She obviously had brain-enhancing shots ('obviously' from the fact she went to school for an hour a week, not from her actual BEHAVIOUR. Obviously.

That might be convincing if she seemed well educated. As it is, it seems just a touch more plausible that they were cutting corners with her education.

so why not anti-ageing ones too?

One very good reason. She's a teenager. Eight years of teenage moodiness is bad enough. No sane parent would deliberately stretch it out any further, any more than they would the toddler period.

What, the sort of Gallifreyan technology that the Fourth Doctor dismissed as 'antiquated junk'?

An obvious exaggeration. He was more interested in puncturing pomposity than in technical accuracy.

Anyway, while there might be better technology than Gallifrey's around somewhere, K-9's native epoch wasn't one of those places. Just look how much cruder he is than the Tardis.

And DOESN'T age during his two-hundred-year Farewell Tour...(assuming he wasn't LYING about that.)

I'm assuming he was, until proven otherwise, but even if he wasn't, he could have found some more anti-ageing pills, or simply decided to use them. Suppose for the moment, the Tardis got restocked with the pills, and other Gallifreyan medicine, during the Time War, I can see Nine and Ten refusing to use them because they felt they didn't deserve to, thanks to all that guilt they were wallowing in.

He's barely capable of keeping her patched up and on the road.

That's just the way he likes things. He's the Oncoming Storm; little indeed is beyond him.

Except a functioning TARDIS.

I mean, you can claim that MOST of 'em like spending half their lives lying underneath their frankly magnificent timeship messing with her innards, but don't tell me that Hartnell wanted to be lumbered with interfering schoolteachers for years cos he couldn't drive them home. Or that Pertwee wanted to be stuck on Earth for years and years and YEARS trying to solder a dematerialisation circuit together. Or that Matt wanted to ruin little Amelia's life.

Not when Hartnell looked over 40. It's one thing to be concerned about a child, another to start investigating an adult.

Didn't Ian and Barbara pretty much ADMIT that they were just using the child-protection thing as an excuse for finding out exactly what serious weirdness was going on?

She obviously had brain-enhancing shots ('obviously' from the fact she went to school for an hour a week, not from her actual BEHAVIOUR. Obviously.

That might be convincing if she seemed well educated. As it is, it seems just a touch more plausible that they were cutting corners with her education.

Aha! You're forgetting that Vicki did something incredibly technically advanced in Space Museum (reprogrammed a computer to allow Xeron arms to fall into rebel hands? Something like that, anyway).

She's a teenager. Eight years of teenage moodiness is bad enough. No sane parent would deliberately stretch it out any further, any more than they would the toddler period.

Ah, but she's a space-traveller. As the tattered remnants of The Space Pirates taught us, space travel can be REALLY REALLY SLOW and so anti-ageing shots might possibly make sense.

And maybe they've also got pills for removing teenaged stroppiness.

Anyway, it's only SEVEN years.

What, the sort of Gallifreyan technology that the Fourth Doctor dismissed as 'antiquated junk'?

An obvious exaggeration. He was more interested in puncturing pomposity than in technical accuracy.

Except that Engin's treasured records were antiquated junk by HUMAN standards TODAY. Just look at those whacking great cylinders they used to store each Time Lords' records. I'm only amazed they didn't have some huge tapes running too, a la the IMC spaceship...

Anyway, while there might be better technology than Gallifrey's around somewhere, K-9's native epoch wasn't one of those places. Just look how much cruder he is than the Tardis.

True, but TARDISes were created back at the dawn of time when the Time Lords were virtual gods. As opposed to these days, where (Lonely God aside) they're a bunch of cretinous losers who MARVEL IN AWE at K9's capabilities.

And DOESN'T age during his two-hundred-year Farewell Tour...(assuming he wasn't LYING about that.)

I'm assuming he was, until proven otherwise

Fair enough.

but even if he wasn't, he could have found some more anti-ageing pills, or simply decided to use them.

Why on Earth would the Doc suddenly and uncharacteristically start anti-ageing medication WHEN HE KNOWS HE'S GOING TO DIE?

you can claim that MOST of 'em like spending half their lives lying underneath their frankly magnificent timeship messing with her innards

That they do. Hartnell, despite his grumpy facade, had clearly decided showing off to the humans was fun within ten minutes of landing in the stone age. Notice the way he sabotaged the Tardis so he could have more fun exploring Skaro, rather than tying to get the teachers home as fast as possible. Pertwee was the Time Lord's fault, and the Tardis didn't want children on board for Matt.

Didn't Ian and Barbara pretty much ADMIT that they were just using the child-protection thing as an excuse

Yes, because the alternative was marking homework, an exercise in tedium. For university lecturers, it's different. They get post-grads to do the marking, while they go and do exciting research. This being the who-verse, the Doctor's tutors were probably too busy building mad computers and reanimating the dead, Frankenstein-style, to have time to investigate a eccentric mature student like Hartnell, and the Doctor wasn't experienced enough to notice their unsavoury hobbies.

You're forgetting that Vicki did something incredibly technically advanced in Space Museum

Technological progress. It's like the way parents get their children to programme the dvd recorder. WHat looks complicated to us 20th century primitives is trivial to someone who's grown up with the technology.

Also, in my experience, teenagers are in a hurry to grow up, so they can partake in adult pleasures. I've not met one yet who'd want an anti-ageing pill.

Just look at those whacking great cylinders they used to store each Time Lords' records.

Clearly just a desktop theme, like the Tardis interior. The alternative is too ludicrous to contemplate.

True, but TARDISes were created back at the dawn of time when the Time Lords were virtual gods.

The first Tardis was, but the Time Lords are still designing new and supposedly improved varieties. Someone on Gallifrey still had superb engineering skills.

Anyway, K-9 had had plenty of opportunity to talk to the Tardis, to learn all she could teach him about the Doctor's pets, and how to look after them.

Why on Earth would the Doc suddenly and uncharacteristically start anti-ageing medication WHEN HE KNOWS HE'S GOING TO DIE?

Because he doesn't want to. He knew where he was due to die, but he kept away from that spot for 200 years, despite his legendary curiosity. Only fear of death could have done that, and even then it's a stretch - one of the reasons I suspect the Doctor is lying. I can't see him spending two centuries running away from anything, even his own death.

Notice the way he sabotaged the Tardis so he could have more fun exploring Skaro, rather than tying to get the teachers home as fast as possible.

Yeah, but the Doctor's one overriding imperative has always been to explore whatever planet he lands on. As he said in Destiny, he'd spend the rest of his lives wondering where he'd been if he didn't. So the fact this was even more urgent than getting rid of the nosy parkers doesn't really mean much. Especially as he KNEW that any attempt to get 'em home would be highly unlikely to succeed. (There was, as it happened, about as much chance that Ian n'Babs would settle down happily with the Thals as there was that the Doctor would get 'em home (don't ask what happened to the fast-return switch...).)

Pertwee was the Time Lord's fault

Yeah, but don't tell me a bit of sabotage and mind-wiping by that incompetent bunch of cretins would have stopped THE DOCTOR if he'd been SERIOUSLY desperate to get the hell off-planet. (Even if he couldn't get his TARDIS working, OR manage to nick the Master's, he should have been able to cobble SOMETHING together out of the remains of all those alien spaceships that invaded over the years...see that garage full of 'em in SJA: Vault of Secrets, for starters.) The fact Pertwee and even Tom spent some time hanging around UNIT after the TARDIS was fully operational - and even after Jo left - proves that he LIKED it there, he just PRETENDED not to.

and the Tardis didn't want children on board for Matt.

Exactly. SHE made the decisions, HE was seriously upset to discover he'd ruined the poor sprog's life (AND that it was now snogging people for a living).

Yes, because the alternative was marking homework, an exercise in tedium. For university lecturers, it's different. They get post-grads to do the marking, while they go and do exciting research. This being the who-verse, the Doctor's tutors were probably too busy building mad computers and reanimating the dead, Frankenstein-style, to have time to investigate a eccentric mature student like Hartnell, and the Doctor wasn't experienced enough to notice their unsavoury hobbies.

That's a good point, though if psychology was one of the many degrees the Doctor was (allegedly) taking, you'd think one of THOSE tutors would have thought an investigation of this particular weirdo would yield some interesting results...

WHat looks complicated to us 20th century primitives is trivial to someone who's grown up with the technology.

Yeah, but the security system wasn't designed by us 20th century primitives, it was designed by space-faring security-obsessed futuristic war-mongers capable of imprisoning DALEKS.

Also, in my experience, teenagers are in a hurry to grow up, so they can partake in adult pleasures. I've not met one yet who'd want an anti-ageing pill.

Yeah, but Vicki might be the exception to that rule. She had her hair in bunches, for god's sake.

Just look at those whacking great cylinders they used to store each Time Lords' records.

Clearly just a desktop theme, like the Tardis interior. The alternative is too ludicrous to contemplate.

Well you better start contemplating it ANYWAY, Sunshine. Those cylinders had physical presence. They got dust on them. They got secretly borrowed (the Doctor's). They got stolen (the Master's). (Without the Time Lords noticing despite their funny-if-it-wasn't-so-tragic belief that their security systems were so great this was utterly impossible.)

TARDISes were created back at the dawn of time when the Time Lords were virtual gods.

The first Tardis was, but the Time Lords are still designing new and supposedly improved varieties.

'Supposedly' being the operative word. They travelled in space and time and were bigger-on-the-inside from day one (well, I'm ASSUMING they were, anyway). What drastic improvements did the Time Lords make in the millions OR BILLIONS of years since then? Ooh, they discovered that they COULD be remote-controlled despite spending said millions-or-billions of years thinking this would drastically curtail their lifespan! Big deal!

Someone on Gallifrey still had superb engineering skills.

Well, yes, one would HOPE that a few centuries at the Academy would give those Time Lords who hadn't been driven insane by the Untempered Schism - i.e. Romana, Rodan, Thalia, Flavia, and the Doctor's Mum (is it just me or are women better at coping with Untempered Schisms?) - considerable engineering skills.

If not QUITE good enough to build decent transduction barriers and defend the Matrix from internal traitors/external attacks.

I mean, if it wasn't for the Doc the Time Lords wouldn't have even been able to hang on to what their ancestors had created for them billions of years earlier...

...And even the Doc failed in the end.

Anyway, K-9 had had plenty of opportunity to talk to the Tardis, to learn all she could teach him about the Doctor's pets, and how to look after them.

Yeah, but given how thrilled the mutt was to speak to his intellectual equal for once when he and Mentalis were having their little fling in Armageddon Factor...he totally failed to take the opportunity to chat to the TARDIS. (He even once referred to Sexy as 'a very stupid machine', suggesting that he was blissfully unaware of her true nature.)

Why on Earth would the Doc suddenly and uncharacteristically start anti-ageing medication WHEN HE KNOWS HE'S GOING TO DIE?

Because he doesn't want to.

Ah yes, but he's always (well, almost always) not-wanted-to-die and he's never taken such medication before, and it would be INCREDIBLY pointless to do so NOW when he KNOWS he's gonna get shot by the lake in this incarnation.

Unless, of course, he got pictures of this unhappy event and saw that he looked his current age, and therefore went to some lengths to ensure that he could have his 200 years off AND meet his destiny...

I can't see him spending two centuries running away from anything, even his own death.

Except, of course, that while WE regard him as the bravest creature in universal history (give or take Harriet Jones Former Prime Minister, who faced her fate unflinchingly, unlike our Doctor), HE sees himself as the coward who's been running ever since he gazed into the Untempered Schism (Tennant). Matt did sound incredibly sincere when he said 'I've been running faster than I've ever run before, and I've been running my whole life...'

There's a difference between a five minute spat, and a sustained grudge. The first blows over, the second would leave the Doctor permanently resenting his Tardid, which of course he doesn't.

Denying the Doctor Amelia as a companion was a five minute spat, at most. The Doctor won't have liked it, but half an hour later, he'll have forgotten their was a problem. Likewise, Hartnell didn't begrudge being lumbered with teachers. There were occasional moments of exasperation, but mostly he enjoyed the opportunity to show off and explore.

As for Pertwee, the Tardis steadily recovered from whatever the Time Lords did to her. Even before Three Doctors he'd repaired almost all the damage, which is why teh master could get her to fly.

if psychology was one of the many degrees the Doctor was (allegedly) taking, you'd think one of THOSE tutors would have thought an investigation of this particular weirdo would yield some interesting results...

They'd be too busy practising mind control techniques of suitably nubile undergraduates. Unless they were deranged enough to want Hartnell in their harem, he'd pass unnoticed.

Yeah, but the security system wasn't designed by us 20th century primitives

Primitiveness is relative. What matters is whether it was primitive compared to the computers she grew up with.

Vicki might be the exception to that rule. She had her hair in bunches, for god's sake.

Fashions change. Vicki might have considered that style the epitome of adult allure, as worn by all the female holovideo stars.

Well you better start contemplating it ANYWAY, Sunshine. Those cylinders had physical presence. They got dust on them

And the Tardis has springs that can get stuck, apparently, but we all know she's not really that crudely built. Those cylinders can work the same way, solid metaphors used as an interface with ultra-high technology, though the Time Lords may have been daft enough to forget they're not actually what they look like.

They travelled in space and time and were bigger-on-the-inside from day one (well, I'm ASSUMING they were, anyway). What drastic improvements did the Time Lords make in the millions OR BILLIONS of years since then?

The NAs claimed that some of the first Tardis's were smaller on the inside than the outside. However, drastic improvements aren't needed; they probably kept improving speed and internal volume, and adding extra features - telepathic circuits, chameleon circuits, HADS, increased scanner range, tractor beams than can pull a planet through normal space faster than light. etc.

It's like the way a modern car isn't fundamentally different from the 1905 version - 4 wheels, an engine underneath, etc - but is still a big improvement.

he totally failed to take the opportunity to chat to the TARDIS.

Wasn't he plugged into her at one point, with a data connection. He obviously grossly underestimated her, but even a dog can learn some tricks.

Ah yes, but he's always (well, almost always) not-wanted-to-die and he's never taken such medication before

I'm assuming he ran out before his first regeneration, and didn't manage to restock until the Time War.

Unless, of course, he got pictures of this unhappy event and saw that he looked his current age, and therefore went to some lengths to ensure that he could have his 200 years off AND meet his destiny...

Perfectly possible.

There's a difference between a five minute spat, and a sustained grudge. The first blows over, the second would leave the Doctor permanently resenting his Tardid, which of course he doesn't.

Are you SURE he doesn't resent her?

Are you sure SHE doesn't resent HIM?

They're like any OTHER incredibly-long-married couple, a LOT of grudges would build up over the years. Sometimes he treats her like a mere machine. Sometimes he condescendedly pats her and says she's 'Better than nothing' (!!). Sometimes he's all 'Yeah, burn the TARDIS, whatever, who cares, but SAVE MY HUMAN PET PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DAVROS!'

Denying the Doctor Amelia as a companion was a five minute spat, at most. The Doctor won't have liked it, but half an hour later, he'll have forgotten their was a problem.

Not when Amy's around to forcibly remind him with a cricket-bat that THERE'S A PROBLEM alright...

Likewise, Hartnell didn't begrudge being lumbered with teachers.

Oh, he SO did. Despite only having himself to blame. Do you think Barbara would have attacked him THAT viciously ('How dare you! Do you realise, you stupid old man, that you'd have died in the Cave of Skulls if Ian hadn't made fire for you. And what about what we went through against the Daleks? Not just for us, but for you and Susan, too, and all because you tricked us into going down to the city. Accuse us? You ought to go down on your hands and knees and thank us. But gratitude's the last thing you'll ever have, or any sort of common sense either.') if he hadn't treated them like dirt?

There were occasional moments of exasperation, but mostly he enjoyed the opportunity to show off and explore.

They GRADUALLY grew on him. But he was still happy to kick 'em out into the middle of the French Revolution and CLAIM it was 1963, just to see the back of 'em.

if psychology was one of the many degrees the Doctor was (allegedly) taking, you'd think one of THOSE tutors would have thought an investigation of this particular weirdo would yield some interesting results...

They'd be too busy practising mind control techniques of suitably nubile undergraduates.

Jeez. You do NOT have much faith in the integrity of lecturers.

Unless they were deranged enough to want Hartnell in their harem, he'd pass unnoticed.

Unnoticed? That must be a SERIOUSLY stupid bunch of psychologists.

Primitiveness is relative. What matters is whether it was primitive compared to the computers she grew up with.

Yeah, so when WAS Space Museum set? And when DID Vicki come from?

Fashions change. Vicki might have considered that style the epitome of adult allure, as worn by all the female holovideo stars.

If there's one thing New Who has taught me, it's that fashions DON'T change.

Those cylinders had physical presence. They got dust on them

And the Tardis has springs that can get stuck, apparently, but we all know she's not really that crudely built.

Frankly I'm not 100% sure that she's NOT that crudely built.

The NAs claimed that some of the first Tardis's were smaller on the inside than the outside.

Smaller on the inside? That's ridiculous!

It's like the way a modern car isn't fundamentally different from the 1905 version - 4 wheels, an engine underneath, etc - but is still a big improvement.

I don't think they ARE a big improvement (modern TARDISes I mean, dunno about CARS). They should have got to the Marie-from-Alien-Bodies stage AT LEAST before they all went boom.

Wasn't he plugged into her at one point, with a data connection. He obviously grossly underestimated her, but even a dog can learn some tricks.

Yeah, K9 got some DATA, and at one point I seem to remember him TRYING to talk to the TARDIS - she ignored him, he said 'You are a very stupid machine'...I don't see him making the most of his Gallifreyan opportunities, frankly. *Desperately tries to block out memory of regenerating K9 in the Australian abomination*

I'm assuming he ran out before his first regeneration

Well, if THAT'S what Hartnell looks at a mere 400-ish years old, like AFTER he's had anti-ageing medication, he should demand his money back.

Are you SURE he doesn't resent her? Are you sure SHE doesn't resent HIM?

At times they do, but not persistently. As with any relationship, they have their spats, but they don't hold grudges.

Do you think Barbara would have attacked him THAT viciously if he hadn't treated them like dirt?

Barbara holds grudges; that doesn't mean the Doctor reciprocates. He has moments of resentment, but he doesn't spend her entire tenure sulking about having to put up with stupid apes.

Jeez. You do NOT have much faith in the integrity of lecturers.

Remember Zaroff, Whittaker, Lazarus? For whatever reason, in the Who-verse academics are clearly not quite as well balanced as in our universe.

Unnoticed? That must be a SERIOUSLY stupid bunch of psychologists.

Not stupid, just preoccupied, like the Greek philosopher who fell down a well because he was too busy watching the stars.

Yeah, so when WAS Space Museum set? And when DID Vicki come from?

No date was given for Space Museum, and technology can regress anyway.

If there's one thing New Who has taught me, it's that fashions DON'T change.

But New Who is not the only Who. It's well known that fashions go in cycles, hence some of the places the Doctor once visited where 70s fashions had returned. It's just that the Tardis, in her lovably eccentric way, has now decided to stick to places with fashions that won't scare her thief's pets.

Frankly I'm not 100% sure that she's NOT that crudely built.

The Tardis is the most magnificent machine ever. She couldn't possibly be crude.

They should have got to the Marie-from-Alien-Bodies stage AT LEAST before they all went boom.

But think of all the other features they installed, like towing planets. The Time Lords didn't share your priorities, unsurprisingly, but they were still making improvements.

Well, if THAT'S what Hartnell looks at a mere 400-ish years old, like AFTER he's had anti-ageing medication, he should demand his money back.

Compared to what he'd have looked like without it - a foot high wizened elf, like Ten briefly ended up - he was doing pretty well.

Are you SURE he doesn't resent her? Are you sure SHE doesn't resent HIM?

At times they do, but not persistently. As with any relationship, they have their spats, but they don't hold grudges.

Admittedly she DOES forgive him in a Christ-like act of benevolence for hammer-attacks and caring about his strays more than her when the Daleks are BURNING HER TO DEATH. And he does forgive her for eloping with the Master.

But HE'S got a 700-year-old grudge that she never takes him where he wants to go, and SHE'S got a 700-year-old grudge that he always opens her door the wrong way.

And his first reaction when he realises who Idris is is to yell accusations at her instead of rushing into her arms like she's a gun-toting Rose Tyler.

Barbara holds grudges

Every WORD she said was ENTIRELY JUSTIFIED!

He has moments of resentment, but he doesn't spend her entire tenure sulking about having to put up with stupid apes.

Only because said stupid apes save his life a few dozen times and he realises they're quite handy to have around.

Remember Zaroff, Whittaker, Lazarus? For whatever reason, in the Who-verse academics are clearly not quite as well balanced as in our universe.

Oh. Yeah. Good point.

Professor Chronotis was also a notorious criminal.

And even lovely Professor Amelia Rumford shacked up with Cessair of Diplos...

Not stupid, just preoccupied, like the Greek philosopher who fell down a well because he was too busy watching the stars.

But sticking THE DOCTOR in front of A PSYCHIATRIST would be like sticking a mouse in front of a cat. IMPOSSIBLE to ignore.

I mean, even CRAIG noticed there was something SERIOUSLY weird about his flatmate...

If there's one thing New Who has taught me, it's that fashions DON'T change.

But New Who is not the only Who.

Oh.

Yeah.

I kinda...forget that, sometimes.

It's just that the Tardis, in her lovably eccentric way, has now decided to stick to places with fashions that won't scare her thief's pets.

I suppose that's as good an explanation as any...

The Tardis is the most magnificent machine ever. She couldn't possibly be crude.

Bits of her are crude.

Just LOOK at the way she POUNCED on my Doctor and BIT him.

But think of all the other features they installed, like towing planets.

I suspect that was a Tenth Doctor installation involving Blon's extrapolator and suchlike. I'd be surprised to see any other Time Lord towing a planet. (Hell, I'd be surprised to see ELEVEN doing it, seeing as he couldn't even snag that Christmas Carol spaceship.)

The Time Lords didn't share your priorities, unsurprisingly, but they were still making improvements.

Pathetically tinkering around the edges of past glories. THAT'S what the losers were doing.

Compared to what he'd have looked like without it - a foot high wizened elf, like Ten briefly ended up - he was doing pretty well.

Yeah, I've never quite understood what was going on there. Why DID a few more centuries of life reduce Ten to Gramps OR Elf? I suppose that DOES back up your anti-ageing medication AND Eleven-didn't-really-have-those-200-years claims...

But HE'S got a 700-year-old grudge that she never takes him where he wants to go, and SHE'S got a 700-year-old grudge that he always opens her door the wrong way.

That was playful teasing. People with grudges are a lot more sullen, in my experience.

Every WORD she said was ENTIRELY JUSTIFIED!

That the grudge is valid doesn't stop it being a grudge.

But sticking THE DOCTOR in front of A PSYCHIATRIST would be like sticking a mouse in front of a cat. IMPOSSIBLE to ignore.

Well, perhaps that wasn't one of his degrees. What would he have wanted to study? Physics, for a laugh at the misguided humans; history, often wildly inaccurate, but it'd give him an idea of the main landmarks; literature, to look at humanity's supposed culture, and medicine, perhaps just because it was supposed to be hard. I can't see pre-Unearthly Child Hartnell planning on treating humans, and yet he's the only one who had the time to do the degree.

That's four degrees simultaneously, more than any human could manage, and enough to keep the Doctor pleasantly occupied - the equivalent of a human spending thirty minutes doing a cryptic crossword.

Just LOOK at the way she POUNCED on my Doctor and BIT him.

Like a playful cat, and are not cats the epitome of grace? The Tardis could no more be crude than a cat could.

I'd be surprised to see any other Time Lord towing a planet.

How do you think they moved Earth two light years? Whatever they claimed at the time, it probably involved a Tardis.

Pathetically tinkering around the edges of past glories. THAT'S what the losers were doing.

True, but their past glories were so great that even said pathetic tinkering made the Sontarans and Slitheen look like stone age barbarians.

I suppose that DOES back up your anti-ageing medication AND Eleven-didn't-really-have-those-200-years claims...

Indeed. Until the series provides us would good evidence to the contrary, we have to assume that Time Lords allowed to age naturally end up a foot tall, and heavily wrinkled, after less than a dozen centuries. Since we've never seen any other Time Lords in that state, it follows that they must be doing something to preserve their youth.

That was playful teasing. People with grudges are a lot more sullen, in my experience.

The Doctor and the TARDIS don't usually do sullen. They do yelling (and biting) instead. That doesn't mean they don't have some deep-seated ISSUES with each other.

Every WORD she said was ENTIRELY JUSTIFIED!

That the grudge is valid doesn't stop it being a grudge.

The fact that Barbara's referring to the events of the past few DAYS surely suggests that the resentment isn't lingering enough to be a GRUDGE. Yet.

What would he have wanted to study? Physics, for a laugh at the misguided humans; history, often wildly inaccurate, but it'd give him an idea of the main landmarks; literature, to look at humanity's supposed culture

LITERATURE? I don't care how many famous authors New Doctors drool over, they're all still ILLITERATE MORONS.

I can't see pre-Unearthly Child Hartnell planning on treating humans

Yeah - that would be wasting his valuable time on stupid apes. Though I find it worryingly easy to picture him studying medicine and giggling away at the ignorance that'll cost millions of lives, and not dropping a single hint about how useful that particular mold is, secure in his 'You can't change history! Not one line!' morality...

Just LOOK at the way she POUNCED on my Doctor and BIT him.

Like a playful cat, and are not cats the epitome of grace? The Tardis could no more be crude than a cat could.

Oh, cats can SO be crude when they feel like it. It's that combination of animalistic basicness and angelic delicacy that makes them so endlessly fascinating.

And if the TARDIS doesn't do 'crude', what the hell is the HAMMER all about?

I'd be surprised to see any other Time Lord towing a planet.

How do you think they moved Earth two light years?

Blimey, that just TOTALLY slipped my mind.

(Cool! Maybe my braincells containing Trial of a Time Lord memories are nobly killing themselves off? Why didn't they think of this SOONER?)

OK, so Time Losers CAN tow planets. Just really REALLY badly. THEY wiped out Earth's population in a fireball. The Doctor just caused Earth to sway around and rain a bit. (And, TWO light-years? How pathetic is THAT?)

even said pathetic tinkering made the Sontarans and Slitheen look like stone age barbarians.

Yeah, but ANYTHING makes Sontarans and Slitheen look like Stone Age barbarians.

Indeed. Until the series provides us would good evidence to the contrary, we have to assume that Time Lords allowed to age naturally end up a foot tall, and heavily wrinkled, after less than a dozen centuries.

And it must be even more of a taboo than talking about regeneration, cos no one EVER mentions this, even after the Doctor does his Dobby impression. In fact, he's in such denial that he even tells Rose point-blank 'I don't age'.

Since we've never seen any other Time Lords in that state, it follows that they must be doing something to preserve their youth.

Pity. All the Gallifrey stories would be a lot more alien, amusing and even understandable (well, THEY couldn't be expected to fight Sontarans) if all the Time Lords were wizened dwarfs...

I find it worryingly easy to picture him studying medicine and giggling away at the ignorance that'll cost millions of lives, and not dropping a single hint about how useful that particular mold is, secure in his 'You can't change history! Not one line!' morality...

Very true. If Hartnell had really wanted to learn how to treat humans he wouldn't have studied in Victorian Britain, he'd have got his medical degree somewhere they'd actually heard of antibiotics, and genes.

And if the TARDIS doesn't do 'crude', what the hell is the HAMMER all about?

Stress relief, for her thief. Anyway, crudeness was referring to her design, not her behaviour. She's the most sophisticated piece of technology in the universe, not a pile of patched together junk, much as it might amuse her to seem that way.

so Time Losers CAN tow planets. Just really REALLY badly. THEY wiped out Earth's population in a fireball.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did that on purpose. After all, they needed to eliminate everyone who knew Ravalox was really the Earth.

ANYTHING makes Sontarans and Slitheen look like Stone Age barbarians.

We humans don't. Even the Slitheen are centuries ahead of modern humans, and the Sontarans have limited time travel and manipulation - hiding part of Atmos a few seconds out of phase.

And it must be even more of a taboo than talking about regeneration

Naturally. Consider how arrogant all the Time Lords we've seen are. Romana, Borusa, the Master, every one of them is too vain to admit they might end up looking like that.

And if the TARDIS doesn't do 'crude', what the hell is the HAMMER all about?

Stress relief, for her thief.

The Doctor doesn't need stress relief! He's an adrenaline-junkie. His idea of being stressed is going for a couple of days WITHOUT risking his life to save somebody else's planet.

Anyway, crudeness was referring to her design, not her behaviour. She's the most sophisticated piece of technology in the universe, not a pile of patched together junk

She's both, in my opinion.

The most sophisticated piece of technology in the universe...with a fast return switch that gets stuck. And has 'Fast Return Switch' written next to it on the console in felt-tip pen.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did that on purpose. After all, they needed to eliminate everyone who knew Ravalox was really the Earth.

Yes, it's the age-old question of whether the Time Lords are grotesquely incompetent or genocidal maniacs. In this case, of course, they're quite possibly both. I don't see 'em as deliberately wiping out humanity - they just haven't got the guts (not before the Time War completely screws them up, anyway) and they'd surely have made more of an effort to destroy evidence like tube stations. But it SURELY would have crossed even their tiny minds that people might get HURT getting dragged across space like that. Either they took a 'colateral damage, tough luck' approach or they kept their fingers crossed that everyone would be wiped out.

ANYTHING makes Sontarans and Slitheen look like Stone Age barbarians.

We humans don't. Even the Slitheen are centuries ahead of modern humans, and the Sontarans have limited time travel and manipulation - hiding part of Atmos a few seconds out of phase.

They may have a few (probably stolen) technological tricks up their sleeves, but they ARE basically barbarians. Emotionally speaking. I mean, humanity is seldom in a position to look down on OTHER species, but we can on THEM. (Yeah, yeah, Slitheen are a family not a species, I know...)

Consider how arrogant all the Time Lords we've seen are. Romana, Borusa, the Master, every one of them is too vain to admit they might end up looking like that.

Yeah, but you don't have to be arrogant to feel that way - who wouldn't? Full credit (for once) to Martha Jones, who didn't bat an eyelid when Tennant was reduced to THAT.

The Doctor doesn't need stress relief! He's an adrenaline-junkie.

But the Tardis can takes hours to get from one exciting place to the next, hours when he has nothing to do except talk to his companions and fiddle with the Tardis - exactly his idea of stress.

She's both, in my opinion.

Whereas I find those two notions fundamentally incompatible.

The fast return switch getting stuck was just a error message, like the melting clocks, a symbolic manifestation of the real fault. All her levers and switches are like the buttons on your computer screen, a user interface, not the real thing.

The labels written in felt tip are just one of the little games the Tardis and her thief play with each other - she shuffles the controls around when he's not looking.

They may have a few (probably stolen) technological tricks up their sleeves, but they ARE basically barbarians

Culturally, yes. Technologically, no. Technologically, Slitheen are to us as we are to the iron age. Sontarans are to Slitheen as they are to our bronze age. Time Lords, even at their nadir, are to Sontarans as they are to our stone age.

But the Tardis can takes hours to get from one exciting place to the next, hours when he has nothing to do except talk to his companions and fiddle with the Tardis - exactly his idea of stress.

Oi! He loves talking to his Companions and fiddling with the TARDIS!

Admittedly, given that he's not much of a sleeper OR a reader, I've always wondered what he does at night when the Companions are snoring and even the TARDIS SURELY can't be inventing NIGHTLY new problems to keep him happy. (Well, unfortunately the Season 6 DVD extras give me a pretty good idea of what he's doing when he's Mr River Song. Maybe all his other incarnations have a secret wife in every port...? Probably not.)

The fast return switch getting stuck was just a error message, like the melting clocks, a symbolic manifestation of the real fault. All her levers and switches are like the buttons on your computer screen, a user interface, not the real thing.

I'm not remotely convinced, but have the horrible feeling I'd have to watch Edge of Destruction to rustle up some evidence for my position.

It'll be interesting to see if I'm prepared to go THAT far to win an argument.

The labels written in felt tip are just one of the little games the Tardis and her thief play with each other - she shuffles the controls around when he's not looking.

A few regenerations later, sure, it would be good fun, but in the Hartnell era that would just be sadistic. He doesn't have a clue how to fly the thing even when all the controls stay still...

Technologically, Slitheen are to us as we are to the iron age.

Nonsense. We reached Mars DECADES ago. All we need to do is invent (or, better still, copy from one of our numerous alien invaders) some faster-than-light drive or something and hey presto! We'll be JUST as technologically advanced as the guys who had difficulty creating a skinsuit without SERIOUS gas exchange problems.

And don't forget that we invented time travel in the NINETENTH CENTURY. We ROCK.

Sontarans are to Slitheen as they are to our bronze age.

Just cos they've got a bit of basic time-travel? It's obviously not THAT much of a technological marvel in the Whoniverse, even the Navarinos have got it...

Time Lords, even at their nadir, are to Sontarans as they are to our stone age.

That would sound a lot more convincing if we hadn't SEEN the whole of Gallifrey roll over at the sight of three or four Sontaran troopers.

Oi! He loves talking to his Companions and fiddling with the TARDIS!

True, but as you said, he's also an adrenalin-junkie. A day without danger will really fray his nerves.

I've always wondered what he does at night when the Companions are snoring

Well, he could cheat. Rig up their bedrooms so that 8 hours for them is five minutes for him. Three wouldn't have had that option though, not during his exile; he'd have been stuck with just the Unit night shift for company.

A few regenerations later, sure, it would be good fun,

The Tardis doesn't see time the way we do. To her, it would make perfect sense to tease Hartnell because Nine tickled her with a hammer.

Nonsense. We reached Mars DECADES ago.

We didn't; Who-verse humans did. They're doing a lot better than us, perhaps thanks to all the alien meddling.

Just cos they've got a bit of basic time-travel? It's obviously not THAT much of a technological marvel in the Whoniverse, even the Navarinos have got it...

Or maybe they just licensed it. It's not just the time travel though; look at their military capabilities.

That would sound a lot more convincing if we hadn't SEEN the whole of Gallifrey roll over at the sight of three or four Sontaran troopers.

Because they hadn't fought a war in millions of years. In battles, it's not just having superior technology, it's having the right kind, and knowing how to use it.

If some stone age tribesman jumped out of your wardrobe and put a flint knife to your throat, how well would you do? You've got technologies way beyond his comprehension, like your computer, but all you could do with that is hit him over the head with it, and he'd be fast enough with his knife to kill you before you had the chance to pick the computer up anyway.

True, but as you said, he's also an adrenalin-junkie. A day without danger will really fray his nerves.

But he DID say in Hungry Earth that the adventures are 'every other day'. Generally he seems perfectly happy to have a snooze on Brighton beach or a wander round Woman Wept or even Disneyland - hell, by the end even ECCY was annoyed rather than 'Fantastic!'-ing over a day out IN WALES being interrupted by alien invasion. (I'm leaving aside Harnell's happy weeks in a Roman villa or Pertwee's months apparently doing nothing but lying underneath Bessie as the Doc's almost certainly become more frenetic post-Time War.)

I've always wondered what he does at night when the Companions are snoring

Well, he could cheat. Rig up their bedrooms so that 8 hours for them is five minutes for him.

I doubt it - frankly he's not good enough at messing around with time to risk it.

And there's a nice line in Alien Bodies about the Doctor doing deeply weird things every couple of hours - including when Sam's asleep, she just finds the piles of evidence the next morning...

The Tardis doesn't see time the way we do. To her, it would make perfect sense to tease Hartnell because Nine tickled her with a hammer.

Hmm. Seeing a few MINUTES into the future is one thing, but seeing CENTURIES...? I don't think so. Not when you're dealing with someone as unpredictable as the Doctor and not when you're dealing with something as unpredictable as non-fixed-pointed history.

Nonsense. We reached Mars DECADES ago.

We didn't; Who-verse humans did.

Well, THEY'RE the only humans who COUNT.

It's not just the time travel though; look at their military capabilities.

What, the military capabilities that mean they haven't managed to win a 50,000-(or whatever)-year-war against some green blobs?

That would sound a lot more convincing if we hadn't SEEN the whole of Gallifrey roll over at the sight of three or four Sontaran troopers.

Because they hadn't fought a war in millions of years. In battles, it's not just having superior technology, it's having the right kind, and knowing how to use it.

Yeah - all those losers needed to do was keep their Transduction Barriers going, and they couldn't even manage THAT - against a dog that TomDoc unfavourably compared to a hamster with a blunt penknife.

Hell, even Borusa - the only one on the planet with anything REMOTELY resembling foresight - didn't have the sense to keep the batteries on his personal forceshield charged.

Oh, and it's also about having a modicum of GUTS.

If some stone age tribesman jumped out of your wardrobe and put a flint knife to your throat, how well would you do?

Very badly indeed, but as I'd've remembered to LOCK MY DOOR - unlike certain Time Lords I could mention - the situation is unlikely to arise.

frankly he's not good enough at messing around with time to risk it.

Maybe, but the Tardis is rather better. Still, it was just a thought.

Seeing a few MINUTES into the future is one thing, but seeing CENTURIES...? I

She says she knows about future control rooms. That's more than a few minutes; it's years, maybe centuries, and it involves the Doctor directly.

What, the military capabilities that mean they haven't managed to win a 50,000-(or whatever)-year-war against some green blobs?

Daleks are green blobs too, inside their armour. That doesn't stop them being technically advanced.

Yeah - all those losers needed to do was keep their Transduction Barriers going

No. The Sontarans used the Vardans to bypass the transduction barriers. The Time Lords hadn't anticipated aliens that could travel through signals, but then it is a rather bizarre ability.

Very badly indeed, but as I'd've remembered to LOCK MY DOOR

You've only locked the doors you know about, but the door that opens in the back of your wardrobe has no lock, and connects you straight to the stone age, but can only be opened from the far side - or so the analogy would go. That's roughly the position the Time Lords were in.

She says she knows about future control rooms. That's more than a few minutes; it's years, maybe centuries, and it involves the Doctor directly.

God, that's true. The implications of Doctor's Wife seems to be taking a long time to sink into my head for some reason.

Daleks are green blobs too, inside their armour. That doesn't stop them being technically advanced.

Yeah, but they have bonded polycarbide armour (or something). And unlike the Rutans there are enough of 'em that they don't have to go round one at a time...

The Sontarans used the Vardans to bypass the transduction barriers.

Not exactly. The Sontarans used the Vardans to get into the Matrix, which resulted in THE DOCTOR using K9 to disable the transduction barriers. Alright, I'm not saying they should have foreseen that Our Hero would be quite that stupid, but given that 50% of Time Lords are raving nutcases, the transduction barrier equipment should have been better guarded. Plus there should have been back-ups.

The Time Lords hadn't anticipated aliens that could travel through signals, but then it is a rather bizarre ability.

They should have put a few effective firewalls around the Matrix, just on the off-chance that SOME races might have bizarre abilities. And even without Vardan wavelength weirdness, they should have had better Matrix security. Goth and the Valeyard gate-crashed it, no problem.

The implications of Doctor's Wife seems to be taking a long time to sink into my head for some reason.

Well, you are only human, unless there's something you're not telling us, of course. That's reason enough.

And unlike the Rutans there are enough of 'em that they don't have to go round one at a time...

No, they go round in gangs of four, and put pictures of their comrades on the wall so they don't feel lonely. Really though, we simply haven't seen enough of the Rutans to make an educated assessment of their capabilities.

They should have put a few effective firewalls around the Matrix

Firewalls only work against attacks of a type you know about. Basically, they'd need to be able to look at the signal and say there's some creature hiding in this, which means knowing how they pull off that trick.

The implications of Doctor's Wife seems to be taking a long time to sink into my head for some reason.

Well, you are only human, unless there's something you're not telling us, of course. That's reason enough.

I'm only human But most of that story consisted of running down corridors, you'd think I'd be able to process the bits that DON'T by now.

No, they go round in gangs of four, and put pictures of their comrades on the wall so they don't feel lonely

Oi! Those were REAL LIVE DALEKS, OK? Just because YOU couldn't stand that still for so long...or look so, um, flat...

Really though, we simply haven't seen enough of the Rutans to make an educated assessment of their capabilities.

YOU may not have done. I, on the other hand, am a TOTAL RUTAN EXPERT. You have NO IDEA how many hundreds of the green meanies I've gunned down in my time...(mainly because I kept getting stuck on that part of the Gunpowder Plot computer game.)

They can electrocute you and slowly-and-badly disguise themselves as you. I really don't think they have any hitherto unexpected skills that explain why, IF the Sontarans were any good, they didn't wipe the floor with the stupid blobs millennia ago.

Admittedly I seem to remember The Infinity Doctors made a pretty good case for the Rutans being more impressive than one might naturally assume, but I damned if I can remember WHY.

Firewalls only work against attacks of a type you know about. Basically, they'd need to be able to look at the signal and say there's some creature hiding in this, which means knowing how they pull off that trick.

One thing the Time Lords have is a LOT of is time on their hands. And nothing whatsoever to do with it. Surely SOME of those endless years could be spent by SOME of that allegedly super-intelligent race in creating some SERIOUS defence around their Matrix and their planet? Against any and all threats, even ones whose nature they weren't entirely sure of yet? Especially as the Matrix should have been able to foresee the supposedly unforeseeable threats - it went into SERIOUS detail about the Presdient's assassination, after all...

And hang on a sec, didn't the Time Lords, at least in the black-and-white era, OBSERVE the universe? Have they even stopped doing THAT? Is that why they didn't know about the Vardans' unusual abilities - cos they couldn't even be bothered to WATCH any more?

Don't get me wrong, it's probably for the best that they aren't keeping an eye on every species in the cosmos and obliterating-at-birth the ones that have the potential to develop time-travel or pose a threat, but it's just SO STUPID from Gallifrey's point of view. And it's not as if they've got anything BETTER to do.

But most of that story consisted of running down corridors, you'd think I'd be able to process the bits that DON'T by now.

Not really. If they wrapped a two minute summary proof of Fermat's Last Theorem in three hours of corridor running, would you expect to understand any of it?

I seem to remember The Infinity Doctors made a pretty good case for the Rutans being more impressive than one might naturally assume, but I damned if I can remember WHY.

By virtue of being well written.

A million year war only makes sense if both sides are highly competent, but finely balanced. If they were both incompetent, by now one or the other would have metaphorically tripped over their own shoelaces and fallen on their own side, and if only one of them were competent they'd have won already.

One thing the Time Lords have is a LOT of is time on their hands. And nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Don't you remember all those traitors on the high council? Obviously, that's just the tip of the iceberg. Those Time Lords not reduced to gibbering madness by the Schism are all too busy scheming to advance their labyrinthine plans to pay any attention to the world outside.

the Matrix should have been able to foresee the supposedly unforeseeable threats

But the Matrix is an amalgam of dead Time Lords, with all that implies. It might well have felt that the invasion would do Gallifrey good.

If they wrapped a two minute summary proof of Fermat's Last Theorem in three hours of corridor running, would you expect to understand any of it?

Certainly not, but Doctor's Wife was definitely not as complicated as Fermat's Last Theorem (well, knowing nothing about said Theorem, I'm certainly ASSUMING it is).

Certainly not, but Doctor's Wife was definitely not as complicated as Fermat's Last Theorem,

True, but it's the same principle - wrapping something indigestible in half a ton of cheap stodge doesn't help you digest it.

Oi! Doctor's Wife is NOT cheap stodge!

Alright, 'cheap' maybe, given that they ran round the TARDIS for half-an-hour without ever encountering one of those...what d'you call 'em...ROOM things.

Terrance Dicks' first original novel is one of the fastest moving and entertaining of all the New Adventures. Moving rapidly between an alternate Festival of Britain in 1951 to Munich in 1923 to Nuremberg, Berlin and Drachensberg in 1939 to Felsennest in 1940 to the real Festival of Britain in 1951 it never once lets up but at the same time tells an extremely strong and memorable story. What makes it work especially well is the way that the story could so easily have been told without the addition of the Timewyrm linking theme but at the same time it feels like it is an integral part of the novel.

The story is notable for being the first time an 'official' Doctor Who story has directly featured the Third Reich and key Nazis (Silver Nemesis only featured latter day Nazis in exile) and as such there is the difficulty as to how to present the Nazi hierarchy and Nazi Germany. Terrance Dicks manages to convey a strong sense of the horror of the Nazi's crimes whilst at the same time not letting the plot become bogged down by the moral arguments. The question of whether or not it is morally right for a time traveller to kill Hitler is addressed and answered only through reference to the case in hand and the book's core premise that the Second World War was only lost by Germany due to Hitler's incompetence. Terrance Dicks' knowledge of the period is strong and we get to see an up close examination of the state of Germany at the outbreak of the Second World War. The third part of the novel is perhaps the strongest, showing the scheming and jostling for influence amongst the key Nazis whilst also showing them for what they were, most obviously Goering (who is almost the heroic support character for the story) and Himmler, a loyal little monster. Hitler himself is only seen for brief periods, but is shown very clearly as a driven insane individual. The story also enhances the Doctor's detachment from the situation and his values through the way that Ace is routinely horrified by what she sees him do, yet later in the castle he demonstrates how he feels about her in a very moving brief scene.

The alternate 1951 sequence is more clich? and could easily have been shortened but at the same time it allows for some enjoyable scenes such as the Doctor's impersonation of the Reichinspektor General and his general demolition of the military. This is very much an action adventure and there is a lot of this throughout the book, whilst at the same time we get to see some of the less well publicised parts of Nazi Germany and the parallels between Nazism and religion are paralleled. And in only the second of the New Adventures we get to see the return of an old enemy, in this case the War Chief and the 'Aliens' from The War Games. Since Dicks co-wrote that story it is appropriate that he should be the one to revive the characters and their new plan is noticeably different. This is a surprising resurrection but all the necessary details about the Doctor's previous encounter with them are given so it doesn't matter if a reader is familiar with the events of that story or not.

Terrance Dicks' prose style has been accused of being over simplistic and traditional but it does flow exceptionally well, making it easy to read the book in a few hours without ever feeling the need for a break from the book, which is something that not every New Adventure can boast. The result is a good strong traditional story that breaks new ground and remains highly readable again and again.

the story could so easily have been told without the addition of the Timewyrm linking theme but at the same time it feels like it is an integral part of the novel.

Very true. I may not want aliens messing round with Hitler AS WELL as every other bloody moment of human history that's remotely important (other than the Doctor, of course, he's ALWAYS welcome) but now you mention it Exodus is about the ONLY one of the seven Timewyrm/Cat's Cradle books that made a success of the linking theme.

there is the difficulty as to how to present the Nazi hierarchy and Nazi Germany

Personally I rather enjoy the Let's Kill Hitler approach to dealing with Nazis.

Terrance Dicks' prose style has been accused of being over simplistic and traditional but it does flow exceptionally well, making it easy to read the book in a few hours without ever feeling the need for a break from the book, which is something that not every New Adventure can boast.

Or...y'know...ANY of the others.

a good strong traditional story that breaks new ground and remains highly readable again and again.

Yeah, it was just as enjoyable on rereading, which was quite a relief as several Who books I actually ENJOYED first time round (always a rare occurrence) were a bit disappointing on reread.

I wonder if it was all those time travellers trying to kill him that made Hitler turn nasty in the first place?

He could probably have coped with the ones who tried to KILL him. It's the ones who SAVED HIS LIFE and then said HORRIBLE things about it being unintentional before punching him in the face and locking him in a cupboard - THAT would result in SERIOUSLY HURT FEELINGS.

Wonder what happened to Coca-Cola in the alternate timeline. Did Hitler and von Kriegsleiter "have a Coke and a smile!", i wonder?

*Boggles* THAT'S what you're worried about, in a Nazi-run future...?

since, a) Coca Cola is an American product, and b) in this timeline the UK was defeated while the USA was still neutral, and c) in our timeline (some) American corporations didn't have much problem dealing with the Nazis even after the US entered the war, I imagine Coke is probably doing really well over there.

And the Nazis would have loved New Coke.

Is there a British product similar to Milo or Ovaltine that the alt-Nazis could have acquired?

Why is London bombed to smithereens if the Nazis swept over Britain with virtually no resistance

The post-war history said they only bombed airfields and not civilian areas. History is generally written by the victors and their version of the truth may be different from others.

I'm glad JFK posted their review a couple of years ago as it saves me writing one; they pretty much said all that I wanted.

Presenting Hitler as fundamentally human rather than just a ranting stereotype gives the book an uncomfortable edge as it reminds us there's plenty like him around today.

Presenting Hitler as fundamentally human rather than just a ranting stereotype gives the book an uncomfortable edge as it reminds us there's plenty like him around today.

Exactly. We prefer to treat him as a monster because we are uncomfortable with acceptinng that he was very human and had a lot of support for what he did... just as most men prefer to perpetuate the "stranger in the bushes" stereotype, when statistics show that most sexual assaults of women are done by men they know - fathers, brothers, uncles, boyfriends, husbands etc.

Presenting Hitler as fundamentally human rather than just a ranting stereotype gives the book an uncomfortable edge as it reminds us there's plenty like him around today.

Exactly. We prefer to treat him as a monster because we are uncomfortable with acceptinng that he was very human

Doesn't Exodus claim that it was the Timewyrm wot made him do it? Gods forbid humans should take responsibility for ANY act of horror we have ever perpetrated. (Dicks had the Players work on Stalin too, didn't he. Cop-out.)

Yeah, Uncle Terrwance seems to have some very strange political views....

Doesn't Exodus claim that it was the Timewyrm wot made him do it?

No. The Timewyrm initially thought Hitler's was a suitable mind to go into and then realised he was completely mad and it was trapped there. There was a mention that once he controlled and harnessed it (thanks for that, Doctor) he did a lot better / worse (delete as applicable) running the war.

The War Lords had some part in amplifying - not creating - Hitler's effect at the rallies. There was never even a hint that Hitler didn't have responsibility for what happened. Will check out 'Players' when I get round to it in a few years.

Ah. OK. So ASIDE from a trapped Timewyrm in his head, the Doctor's hypnosis, the War Lords' amplification, the attempted assassination by a robot filled with miniaturised cross people, being locked in a cupboard by a time traveller, his validium bow, and his Spear of Destiny, Hitler was TOTALLY UNINFLUENCED by alien forces...

Well, thank the Norse gods Clyde Langer stopped him getting his hands on the Chronosteel Thor's Hammer, that's all I can say.

Will check out 'Players' when I get round to it in a few years.

You and me both, Sunshine.

Why do we DO this to ourselves, WHY?

Just promise me you're skipping the Mick Lewises in the Great Reread...

The quest is the quest.

I never got through all of the PDAs & Past Doctor books so I have a feeling there's some Mick Lewis ones I've never read. Still, 'The Pit' comes well before them *shudder*

I have a feeling there's some Mick Lewis ones I've never read.

Trust me, you'd remember them if you HAD read them.

And whatever it takes to maintain your blessed state of ignoranace, YOU DO IT.

Better to read The Pit ten times than Rags once.

Things i could have done without... Goering as an embarrassingly stupid imbecile and Himmler as the Penguin from Batman.

I don't see why Goering SHOULDN'T be an imbecile. None of the Nazis were exactly renounced for their intellect.

And I don't remember Himmler being a Penguin...?

The Penguin (real name: Oswald Cobblepot) is a villain from the Batman franchise. I was comparing Exodus's Himmler with the portrayal of the Penguin in the 1960s Batman TV show

That's a relief. For a moment I thought Himmler was a Whifferdill.

Of course with the Germans, it's not the movies they want to take Ace to, it's the "moofies".

Dicks couldnt capture Seven and Ace. He was still perpetually writing Old Who seasons eight to eleven.

Let's face it, telling a Nazi he likes his women big, blonde and bouncy isn't particularly characteristic of ANY Doctor.

Timewyrm: Exodus is the second novel in the Doctor Who: The New Adventures series and featuring the Seventh Doctor and Ace.

It is the first written by former Doctor Who script editor and prolific writer Terrance Dicks.

It is a sequel to the Patrick Troughton swansong The War Games which Dicks also co-wrote as it feature return of a certain old enemy of the Doctor.

Exodus is the second book in the Timewyrm story arc and presents a premise of what if the Nazis had won the Second World War.

It feature the appearance of Adolf Hitler long before he would make a cameo on TV in Let's Kill Hitler.

A fascinating story dealing with its premise and what role Hitler played with the presence of the Timewyrm in this book.
Thrilling book and rightly raises questions of the themes that it addresses.

You could take the Timewyrm out of Exodus and not harm the story in the slightest.
"Hitler was so insane, he trapped the Timewyrm in his brain" isnt even GOOD nonsense.

Look on the bright side: at least Hitler didn't win the War by SWALLOWING A ••••••• MAGIC CRYSTAL THAT GAVE HIM ••••••• SUPERPOWERS.

My assessment of Goering is that he rather missed his vocation. But for the accident of being born a German, he would have made a typical South American dictator - strutting around in gaudy uniforms, weighed down with so many medals that he can hardly stand up straight, and living in luxury on ill-gotten gains - but not all that interested in actually _fighting_ anyone. Recall Julius Caesar's remark about men who are fat. It's the _austere_ dictators that you really have to worry about. Goering, I suspect, would have been looking to wallow in luxury and admire his stolen artworks - not to conquer the world.

Recall Julius Caesar's remark about men who are fat. It's the _austere_ dictators that you really have to worry about.

Henry VIII and Idi Amin hardly had lean and hungry looks...

Austria likes to pretend it was "Hitler's first victim" but newsreels from the time show celebration and enthusiasm for the Anschluss. It was only in 1945 that they discovered that being German wasn't much fun and decided to pretend that they never wanted it.

Yeah, the fact they later elected a Nazi war criminal as their president also rather gives the game away.

Mind you, Kurt Waldheim was also United Nations Secretary General so it's not as if the REST of the human race has anything to be proud of either...the UN will LITERALLY choose a Nazi before they'll choose a woman...

and the modern belief on the left that 1930s Jewish newspapers recognising that Hitler was dangerous meant that they also predicted the Holocaust really s**** me.

[The Doctor meeting an old Nazi in modern-day Britain]

Doctor: No need for violence please, Mr. Sepp! You're not in the Gestapo now!

a doctor who saw Adolf in April 1945 said that "there would be no St Helena" for Adolf Hitler, since his very poor health meant "he had one, two, at most three years left to live."

That's...annoying.

ALL World War Two cost him was a couple of years of miserable ill-health?

It also blows a hole in novels like Faction Paradox: Warlords of Utopia which in their victorious-Nazi-timelines assume that he'd've lived a LOT longer.

---

quote:

In 1943 the Allies went to great lengths to keep any advance knowledge of the Casablanca meeting between Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt from leaking, lest the Germans get wind of it and took action. In fact the Germans did find out; the Spanish somehow acquired quite detailed information on the Casablanca conference and promptly passed the information on to the Abwehr, giving the Germans plenty of time to plan something. The Germans didn't do anything because a misunderstanding in translating the message from Spanish to German made them think the meeting was taking place in Washington - 'Casa Blanca' being Spanish for 'White House'.

---

I very much doubt this actually happened. The Germans were not idiots, and detailed information would contain travel schedules that would have told them the meeting would take place in Morocco. Nice little story though.

BTW, the fact that nobody in the Wehrmacht swore on oath to either Himmler or Goering may be significant. I can't imagine that senior Heer officers were eager to see either a chicken farmer or a drug addict running the war...

The War Chief seems a little upset here:

He turned over a body with his foot. It was the War Lord, staring sightlessly at the sky. Kriegslieter looked at the other corpses, the ones that had not risen. "All the others are dead. Once again you have turned up to ruin everything, Doctor. Soon I too shall die. But not before I have seen you and your companion torn to pieces..."

Well, the Doctor did wreck his plans.

In a "Hitler dies/is killed during the Phoney War" scenario, I think that the military swiftly coups Goering and installs a military regime with maybe some sort of powerless civilian figurehead as a fig-leaf. The return of the German monarchy might also be on the cards.

It's more likely that Goering would have taken over himself. If that had happened, things would have been a lot different. For one thing, Goering was opposed to the idea of invading Russia, which was a huge boo-boo on Hitler's part.

The Allies might have been force to sue for peace and leave Germany in control of Europe (while the U.S. would be busy fighting Japan).

Mind you, this is sheer speculation.

As in any war, the burden would be on civilians.

The Japanese added a peculiar sadistic streak to their brutality; even the Germans rarely nailed a Russian peasant's intestines to a tree and made him walk around it, while there are numerous accounts of Japanese doing just that.

The Allies might have been force to sue for peace and leave Germany in control of Europe (while the U.S. would be busy fighting Japan).

I think it would have just delayed VE day long enough for the US to complete its atomic bomb and use it on Germany first, then Japan if they didn't get the message.

If the Reich had not raised its' demonic head, Unit 731 would be THE crimes against humanity standard that all others are measured against.

The Japanese have skilfully escaped long-term consequences for their actions with just two words: "Hiroshima" and "Nagasaki"

I saw a show on the History Channel, some years ago, called Inside Hitler's Britain, which explored what a Nazi takeover of the U.K. might have been like.

One this the show speculated was the organization of resistance groups, like then one we see in this novel. They mentioned the guy in charge, Colonel Gubbins, who is also mentioned in this novel.

Hitler was also very lucky. His enemies collapsed in front of him until Moscow that is. Change a few things and its unlikely that any other German leader could do as well.

That is why the War Lords were there, to make sure Hitler stayed lucky.

Could a more moderate (and less genocidal) Germany have won World War II?

Would a more moderate Germany even have had to _fight_ it?

Judging from what Hitler got away with during his first five years or so in power, a German gov't which was prepared to call the former Allies' bluff and start re-arming, could probably get major revisions to the Treaty of Versailles even without war.

I would just like to making it BLOODY CLEAR that many people in the real world still ask the asinine question "why didn't more people stand up against the Nazis?" when given the Nazis use of collective punishment - if one person dared openly opposed them, their whole family would suffer - which is also applied in the Star Wars universe by the Empire - it's a lot more understandable why relatively few did.

What is this sudden obsession with George Lucas's overrated creation?

I would guess it comes from the fact that the final chapter of the saga was just released.

The Mouse is actually gonna let that cash cow go? Amazing.

I remember once (foolishly) criticising the atomic bombing to my father. There was a long pause until he pointed out that without the bomb I almost certainly would not exist.

Blimey, why wouldn't you exist without The Bomb?

Tbh, 'you wouldn't exist!' has always struck me as a TERRIBLE argument. I almost certainly wouldn't exist without the Irish Potato Famine, marital rape, the Black Death or World War One, that doesn't necessarily mean they were good ideas.

Blimey, why wouldn't you exist without The Bomb?

It's possible that, had the war continued, an ancestor of hers might have been killed before said ancestor married.

Same applies to me, I exist because the war ended when it did.

My Dad joined the Canadian Navy when he turned 18 in 1944. However, the war ended before he saw any combat. Had that not been the case, he might have been assigned to s ship, which could have been sunk.

Had that happened, he would not have met my mother in the 1960's, so, no me.

It's possible that, had the war continued, an ancestor of hers might have been killed before said ancestor married.

Yeah, I realise that, I'm just interested in the specifics of 'almost certainly'.

Hundreds of thousands would have died in the planned Allied invasion of Japan. My grandfather who served in World War II would have viewed the modern "the atomic bombings were to scare the Soviets" with utter contempt.

Hundreds of thousands would have died in the planned Allied invasion of Japan.

Agreed.

But the US was demanding Japan's unconditional surrender and the Japanese (quite understandably in view of what THEY'D been doing to the countries they conquered) believed that the US would rape every woman, castrate every man, hang the Emperor...

So how about offering reassurances that no one's going to get raped/castrated, that you can even keep your sodding Emperor and become an independent democracy? Wouldn't it have been worth OFFERING that rather than go straight to the 'Hey, let's slaughter a few hundred thousand civilians! It'll be fun!' option?

My grandfather who served in World War II would have viewed the modern "the atomic bombings were to scare the Soviets" with utter contempt.

Why? Given that there's historical evidence to support such an interpretation?

Japanese (quite understandably in view of what THEY'D been doing to the countries they conquered) believed that the US would rape every woman, castrate every man

Which is what happened in the part of Germany that came under Soviet control. That's why so many were willing to surrender to the Anglo-American forces instead.

The Americans *hated* the Japanese because of Pearl Harbor and the Bataan Death March etc., in a way that they never hated the Germans (this was partly a racial matter, of course).

While the notion of scaring the Soviets would not have been entirely absent from U.S. minds in August 1945, the primary motive was to end the war as quickly as possible with the fewest loss of Allied lives.

Bookwyrm:

Goering (who is almost the heroic support character for the story)

Yeah, you're not the only person who sees Exodus as portraying Goering's humour, shrewdness, distaste for Nazi policies, sympathetic intelligence...

Bookwyrm helpfully goes on to quote the Nuremberg judgement: 'He was the leading war aggressor, both as political and as military leader; he was the director of the slave labour programme and the creator of the oppressive programme against the Jews and other races...His guilt is unique in its enormity.'

Things i could have done without... Goering as an embarrassingly stupid imbecile

...Though you definitely changed your tune between 2012 and 2015.

The War Lord 'was removed from time "as if you had never existed"...Fathering a son in that situation is pretty impressive' - oh. Yeah.

'The War Chief's nom-de-guerre is "Dr Kreigsleiter", which translates from the German as 'Doctor War Chief"...it takes the Doctor almost 100 pages to work out who his nemesis is' - oops.

Leiter méañs leader not chief