I hated this book. I got about a quarter of they way through and then finally gave up. Are any of the other BBC books any good?

Well I didn't think much of The Eight Doctors but I didn't mind The Devil Goblins From Neptune on the whole. But please don't hate me if you don't end up liking it. I haven't read any others apart from those two.

Come back Virgin all is forgiven!!!

I have to say there are some Virgin books I didn't make it to the end of either.

People, can't you say more about the books than "I didn't like it." WHY didn't you like it?!?

And Chris, don't worry, we still like you, even if we don't agree with your opinion.

Well, basically it was very boring to read, especially as the Virgin vampire novels (Goth Opera and Blood Harvest) were so good. Also the Doctor's character isn't quite as interesting in these books, as they only have a hour or so of film to base it on.

You DIDN'T LIKE Vampire Science????!!!!! It was this wonderful book (plus utter desperation due to lack of new TV Doctor Who) which finally drove me to try to read all the New Adventures, Virgin and BBC. Which is weird, given that I find Kate Orman's solo books, and Jon Blum's short story, pretty boring. It's almost enough to make me believe that love and marriage are not such daft ideas.

I suppose there's no point in me recommending any other BBC books to Edje, since my taste seems diametrically opposed to everyone else's, but try the excellent ranking site at

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sps/rank.html

And if you're voting, PLEASE don't be too nasty to Vampire Science.

he he he.

(rubs hands together and clicks on link)

Just kidding!!!

Emily, I agree with you that this is an excellent book; of the relatively few full-length novels set in the Whoniverse that I have read it is probably my second favorite after "Dead Romance." However, I had one major problem with the ending. SPOILER ALERT:
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I simply could not believe that the other characters appeared to forget completely about Dr. Shackle. Perhaps, as the Epilogue suggests, they had assumed he was dead, but in that case I think they would still have tried to confirm it, contact any family he might have, and so on. The Doctor and Carolyn had tried so hard to dissuade him from becoming a vampire--then, once he becomes one and the other vampires are defeated, they seem to forget he ever existed. I find this element of the ending extremely difficult to believe.

Yes, I see what you mean. I suppose no-one wanted to mention Shackle for fear of spoiling the happy-ever-after comradeship of the ending ('Oh do join UNIT...go on...who cares if you're a mass-murderer, so long as you enjoy stawberry ice-cream...')

I pictured Shackle to be played by Richard E. Grant.

Apparently the writers did too!

Just finished re-reading it. Not quite as bad as the first time but it still has far too many of the treacle-coated Nutrasweet 'look how wonderful the Doctor is' moments. Forget about 'show, not tell' this is full of characters thoughts on what a great guy the Doctor is. This is a bit of a problem when those characters are actually quite unappealing themselves. Sam - well - enough said. As for the rest they never seem quite real, probably because they all start raving on about how wonderful the Doctor is every second page. Plus there's more emoting going on than in a Meatloaf song.

I feel like Vyvyan from 'The Young Ones' when he comments on 'The Good Life' - "it's all so sodding *nice*". It's a forced attempt to make a Third Doctor UNIT-family style story and it fails badly.

And why does the cover have the presidential seal on it when the story has nothing to do with the government? For most of the time you forget the book is set in SF let alone the USA.

I'd forgotten about your evil Vampire Science-hating ways. (It's DEFINITELY been too long since you were in the UK.) I'm glad you're finally mellowing a little. Personally, I don't have any kind of problem with people thinking what a great guy the Doctor is. I do it myself. All the time.* And the Doc's never bothered to turn up and rescue ME from a bunch of vampires.

*OK, give or take the odd cry of 'Male chauvinist PIG!' or 'Anti-democratic GIT!'' or 'Die Colin DIE!'

Who was the male chauvinist pig?

All of them, of course!

Well, actually, maybe I'm wronging McGann. He didn't really have TIME to be one, on-screen at least. (Expecting Grace to go with him was quite reasonable, in the circumstances.) And in the books he's fairly (as Graham's always complaining) New Man-ish. He even claimed (Casualties of War) to spend his time chaining Suffragettes to railings...

I'd vote for #1, myself. I still remember him talking down to Barbara like she was 5. Then again, #3 could be pretty condescending; of course that was to everyone, not just women.

At least Hartnell never told Barbara she needed a jolly good smacked bottom...

Troughton blotted his copy-book with the infamous 'Why not make some coffee to keep them all happy while I think of something' to Polly.

Pertwee's main crimes were a) swanning in and stealing Liz's job and then demanding her as one of the conveniences (car, lab, Liz, etc) to go with the job, and b) telling Sarah that they needed someone to make the tea. (It's possible to argue that it's just chance that the Companion Troughton tells to make coffee happens to be a woman. Pertwee's tea comment, however, is blatantly and inescapably sexist.)

And don't tell me that God (er...Tom Baker) didn't ENJOY making those outrageously chauvinist comments in Ark in Space, even if he had an ulterior, getting-Sarah-out-of-the-ventilation-shaft motive for them.

Later Doctors, of course, had to pretend not to be sexist gits, owing to the fact that Gallifrey and the BBC were gradually catching up with the real world in this regard. But however much they ran round demanding women Presidents for Gallifrey...I can just TELL. Leopards don't change their spots. However often they regenerate.

Emily : And in the books he's fairly (as Graham's always complaining) New Man-ish

I think a lot of that was to do with what Benny did to him at the end of 'The Dying Days'

So, even though the Doctor was the Brig's first choice (albeit unavailable) for science advisor, and the most qualified, you think Liz should have gotten the job (which she didn't really want, anyway)? The Doctor hardly swanned in; the Brig had to almost drag him in, and the Doctor only relented because he realized he was stuck on Earth.

I think you're really going hard on the 4th Doctor. He did what he did because he knew it'd get a rise out of SJ, and because he knew she was perfectly capable of getting out of the vent.

Leopards don't change their spots, but people can grow and change. If not, we're all screwed.

"It's possible to argue that it's just chance that the Companion Troughton tells to make coffee happens to be a woman."

Hmmm, this would be more convincing if he'd ever been overheard asking Ben or Jamie to make the coffee.

Admittedly in 'The Moonbase' Jamie is bedridden (for good 'the character isn't actually in this script' reasons) and I'm not sure I'd trust him to make the coffee anyway.

Besides, this is 2070, where are all the atomic powered coffee-making robots we were promised?

I think a lot of that was to do with what Benny did to him at the end of 'The Dying Days'

Ah! You mean because he'd been on the receiving end of sexual harrassment, the Doctor finally realised what it was like to be a woman and mended his hitherto sexist ways?

So, even though the Doctor was the Brig's first choice (albeit unavailable) for science advisor, and the most qualified, you think Liz should have gotten the job (which she didn't really want, anyway)?

No, I think the Doctor's obviously the person for the job. As, however, it had already been offered to Liz Shaw, her opinion should certainly have been sought - firstly about whether she was prepared to give up the job without suing for unfair dismissal, and secondly about whether she was prepared to hang around with a bunch of soldiers playing second fiddle to the Doctor.

And yet somehow - despite her earlier protests to the Brigadier that she wanted nothing to do with UNIT, AND the fact that the Doctor had lied through his teeth to her and played her for a fool to assist him in scarpering and leaving her - not to mention the entire planet - to their doom...her consent to this arrangement is just taken for granted by the men. MEN!

Leopards don't change their spots, but people can grow and change.

I look forward to seeing whether Eccleston *rapturous sigh - FILMING STARTED TODAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!* - can manage this feat. In the meantime, given that Doctors 4-8 have never once opened their gobs to express the slightest pro-feminist sentiment (any more than they have on the equally vital issue of multi-party democracy) I will continue to tar them with their predecessors' brush.

I mean, just look at Davison caving into Hurndell's demands for Tegan to indulge in a bit of snack-providing (not that she can REALLY complain, she's an air hostess for Christ's sake) instead of taking this heaven-given opportunity to lecture his former self on being a sexist git. Look at the Sixth Doctor (in Players) responding to Churchill's 'We can't let a woman be involved in a prison break!' by assuring him that, don't worry, he won't let the little thing get into any danger, he just needs her •••• to hypnotise some information out of the guards. (Um...not that he phrased it EXACTLY like that.)

In fact, the only Doctor who makes ANY contribution to the raising of feminist consciousness in the universe is, oddly enough, Pertwee, when he tells Sarah to give Thalira a lecture on Women's Lib. (As if she wouldn't have thought to do it without a MAN telling her to!)

"It's possible to argue that it's just chance that the Companion Troughton tells to make coffee happens to be a woman."

Hmmm, this would be more convincing if he'd ever been overheard asking Ben or Jamie to make the coffee.

Well, quite. But you get people like Lawrence going on about Benton and his tea, Yates and his cocoa...

where are all the atomic powered coffee-making robots we were promised?

Indeed. How did all those men (MEN!) on the Moonbase make the coffee before Polly arrived?

I would like to take this time to point out that I make the coffee in my office every day, despite the prescence of several women in the same office.

It could be that the Fifth Doctor had a bit of proportion, and realized that, as all his previous lives and maybe even the universe were in danger, now was not the time to enlighten his former self. Who, as he should know, was not going to change anyway (after all, it was his past).

I'm surprised that Liz did want to stay, seeing that she hadn't applied for the job. She viewed it almost as being drafted.

I would like to take this time to point out that I make the coffee in my office every day, despite the prescence of several women in the same office.

Well, of COURSE you do! No-one's accusing YOU of being a male chauvinist pig - just the Doctor. Though I do feel the need to point out that no woman would come out with a statement like 'I make the coffee in my office every day, despite the presence of several men in the same office' so sexual equality has some way to go.

It could be that the Fifth Doctor had a bit of proportion, and realized that, as all his previous lives and maybe even the universe were in danger, now was not the time to enlighten his former self. Who, as he should know, was not going to change anyway (after all, it was his past).

Bah! The universe is NOT in danger, it would be JUST as quick (probably quicker) to give the First Doctor a quick lecture on female equality than to indulge him by sending Tegan off to perform housewifely duties, and given the whole question-mark over when the Doctors came from, how much they'll remember etc I wouldn't be so quick to write off any learning experiences they may just be capable of. And if nothing else, putting the grumpy old git in his place would have reduced the chances of Tegan lunging shrieking for his throat. (Yeah, I know this - sadly and inexplicably - didn't happen, but the way the First Doctor was behaving it was a distinct possibility.)

Oh, I forgot...

I'm surprised that Liz did want to stay, seeing that she hadn't applied for the job. She viewed it almost as being drafted

Well, EXACTLY. Given her opinions of UNIT, the Brigadier, the Doctor, and being virtually kidnapped from Cambridge, it's not TOO rabidly feminist of me to think that actually ASKING Liz if she's prepared to stay might be a sensible precaution.

Later Doctors, of course, had to pretend not to be sexist gits, owing to the fact that Gallifrey and the BBC were gradually catching up with the real world in this regard. But however much they ran round demanding women Presidents for Gallifrey...I can just TELL. Leopards don't change their spots. However often they regenerate.

I WOULD have to eat my words these days, only luckily Matt made that OUTRAGEOUSLY SEXIST comment about River being a bit, well, schizophrenic and homicidal because 'she's a woman'. Case proven.

The fact that most of the comments on this thread are about something other than the book should give an indication of how forgettable it is.

Other bits from the latest reading:

1) The use of radw member names as characters is grating (despite me being one of a page full of them in another book) as the names - Ben-Zvi and Groenewegen (also in other Orman books) - stand out far too much.

2) As per my 2004 comment there were times when the characters seemed to merely be reciting an authorial polemic about what the Doctor should be. I can guess which author wrote them.

3) The massive difference in character of Sam between this and the previous book was jarring - and to be honest I preferred the Terrance Dicks version of her.

4) I was on my fifth beer by the time I finished this. It really needed a couple more to make it less painful.

The fact that most of the comments on this thread are about something other than the book should give an indication of how forgettable it is.

Nonsense! It's usually the GOOD books that raise interesting points about the Whoniverse that must be discussed at length.

The use of radw member names as characters is grating

You have a point. It's just that someone found eaten by particularly vicious hamsters is simply not in a position to complain.

The massive difference in character of Sam between this and the previous book was jarring - and to be honest I preferred the Terrance Dicks version of her.

WHAT! How?! There WASN'T a Terrance Dicks version of her. There was a cameo by a cardboard cut-out...

I was on my fifth beer by the time I finished this. It really needed a couple more to make it less painful.

*Suspicious look* Wasn't this the THIRD TIME you've read Vampire Science? Even I wouldn't sadistically subject myself to a Who book I hated THREE TIMES.

Um, almost certainly. Well, probably, anyway.

Vampire Science:
Vampire Science is the second novel in the BBC Eighth Doctor series.

Also featuring Sam Jones.

Written by Jonathan Blum and Kate Orman.

Released in July 1997.

This is a book that I long wanted to read and I am glad I finally rectified in the reading of this book recently.

I was surprised to discover that one of the characters here General Kramer had previously appeared in the fan video Time Rift where he met the Seventh Doctor and Ace and the Doctor was played by Vampire Science co-author Jonathan Blum.

As it says in the title Vampire Science featured vampires and fascinating that this story begins in San Francisco in 1976 and then jumping to 1997.

The one person who met the Doctor and Sam in both of these years was Carolyn and who has lived through these intervening years.

From their exciting introductory sequence in 1976 before eventually leading to the climax in 1997, the vampires are very good villains in this story.

The end of the novel certainly poses an interesting of what is to become of one of the vampires.

I was surprised to discover that one of the characters here General Kramer had previously appeared in the fan video Time Rift where he met the Seventh Doctor and Ace and the Doctor was played by Vampire Science co-author Jonathan Blum.

Yeah, do you think they're trying to canonise THAT? (No, I've never seen it but I've heard descriptions from people who've met people who've seen Time Rift and even second-hand they reverberated with horror.)

The one person who met the Doctor and Sam in both of these years was Carolyn and who has lived through these intervening years.

Apparently it was supposed to be Grace Holloway but they couldn't get the copyright (and still can't - even now they're all over New Who, even Big Finish keep using Daphne Ashbrooke and Lee Jee Tso in different (but highly distracting) roles).

the vampires are very good villains in this story.

Yeah, Who never goes wrong with vampires. (Well, hardly ever, and those Forge audios were certainly no WORSE than your average BF.)

The end of the novel certainly poses an interesting of what is to become of one of the vampires.

I'd be happy to sneer at this ridiculous mass-murdering-alien-joining-UNIT idea if UNIT's current Scientific Advisor wasn't a Zygon...

The Doctor has a 'tingling chilliness to his skin'?

James goes from 'a prowler' to 'the prowlers' awfully fast and without explanation, or Carolyn questioning it, or it actually being true, given that said stalker is the Doctor, singular.

HUMANS can use the magic-telepathic-boxes? The Doctor's Wife implies otherwise.

'This room had belonged to another teenager, long ago' - OK, that certainly fits it with Turlough getting Adric's room, just not with all the Companions' rooms being preserved, as claimed in Relative Dimensions...

'The Doctor invariably spoke about his time-space vessel as though it - she - were alive' - well I'm glad, if sceptical, that McGann is an 'Old Girl' rather than an 'it' kinda Doctor...

'The TARDIS was the closest thing he had to a girlfriend now' - WIFE if you don't mind...

Eight uses bifocals to read?

'Spent the last quarter of last century helping us fight off aliens' - General Kramer re the Doctor. Hardly the last quarter, come the 1990s s/he was SO outta there...

Carolyn goes from 'I don't want James involved in any way, shape or form' to 'Well, alright...' awfully fast and for no discernible reason.

Kramer goes from 'What do you expect me to do?' to 'We'll get him back alive' awfully fast and for no discernible reason.

'UNIT's full of people who've done time with the Doctor, and now they're doing things that matter right here on Earth. At least, the ones who made it back home did' - really? Cos Power of the Doctor implied rounding up ex-Companions was a brilliant new idea of Kate's.

'"Does this happen all the time?" she asked shakily.
"Outbreaks of vampirism?"
"No. Your friends getting... hurt like this."
For a moment he looked like a lost little boy. "Sometimes," he said. "It's been much more dangerous these past few years."' - it's WHAT! Since he became McGann? But Sam's his first Companion and she's been fine up till now!

'"Moreover," said the Doctor, carefully pushing his salad bowl into the centre of the table, "I'm a former President of the High Council of the Time Lords, Keeper of the Legacy of Rassilon, Defender of the Laws of Time and Protector of Gallifrey. I'm called the Bringer of Darkness, the Oncoming Storm, and the Evergreen Man."' - EVERGREEN MAN? Isn't THAT bit of nonsense only wheeled out for that godawful Autumn Mist...?

'Joanna saw Metebelis and Androzani and Yemaya before the link subsided and stabilised' - the Doctor DIED on Metebelis and Androzani, what's his excuse for remembering anything as boring as his Yemaya 'adventure'...?

Is there no way of PHONING Kramer?

'It didn't matter if they were asleep or awake. They were trapped, outnumbered and out-gunned. It would be a surgical strike. End of problem' - Kramer's not idiotic enough to think it makes NO DIFFERENCE if the vampires she's attacking are conscious enough to sink their fangs into her...

To be continued...

'Only Abner still felt nervous. "You've got to keep this from the youngsters, Miss Harris," he said. "Especially young Edwin. They're looking for a vulnerability to exploit." "Yes, indeed," she said. "Sound them out for me, Abner. Find out what they think of the idea of a permanent food source. Tell them, no more struggling with drunken men in dirty alleys." "I will," promised Abner' - they seem to have gone from 'keep this from the youngsters' to 'tell the youngers all about it' awfully fast...

'"You travel a great deal - that's one way to avoid boredom." "I'd never thought of it that way before," said the Doctor. "As avoiding something..."' - SERIOUSLY? You didn't think you were AVOIDING THE TIME LORDS when you...fled the Time Lords?

'UNIT'S got counselling services. We've got a whole SETSO programme - Survivors of Extra-Terrestrial/Supernatural Occurrences' - since WHEN!

So the Doc was 1,000 in Set Piece and 1,012 here and he's been McGann for three years...meaning two with Sam (dropped her off for a year (his time) at a rally)...not a nit just keeping an eye on the Doctor's age cos it's all gonna go pear-shaped sooner or later...

'Real trust is as rare and precious as having a cat pay attention to you' thinks the Doctor, y'know, the guy who was just IGNORING Mina-the-cat as she...paid attention to him.

'Harris drove straight to a warehouse, a few minutes away in the late-night traffic' - but Sam had 'spent the next twenty minutes tensed all the way up to her eyeballs, her gaze locked on the pair of tail lights half a block ahead.'

Why the hell is Slake announcing his new kill-his-comrades plan in front of Abner who betrayed his LAST murderous plan and foiled it?

'"The kittens," shrieked Carolyn. "What about the kittens?" - look, I love our Doc with all my one-and-only heart but...NEVER NEVER NEVER trust him/her with your kittens.

Sam AND Harris both believe the Doc's gonna DIE just from blood-loss? As opposed to REGERNERATE (or of course just ignore said blood-loss a la Smith and Jones)?

'His eyes were on Harris, who was looking shakily around her. "I remember when this place was magic," she said. They stood at the corner of Haight and Ashbury Streets. "Oh yes," said the Doctor. "I remember those days. In fact, I think at least three of me visited. The summer of love, before the autumn of disappointment and terrible hangovers. It was fun while it lasted."' - that's a REALLY weird way of referring to the Wonderland novella.

Sexy's dematerialisation is NOT a 'dreadful noise' you BLASPHEMERS!