Moderator's Note: This is Mike's original Hartnell summary:

The first and, as he once said, the original Doctor. It's hard to tell how much of the Doctor's "hmms" and forgetfulness was acting and how much was Hartnell's advanced age.
My favorite thing about Hartnell's Doctor was his lack of physical prowess. Here was a crotchedy old geezer who looked half-dead, and who inevitably saved the day/world/universe.



Ah, but what I like most about Hartnell is the fact that he DIDN'T invariably save the day. In the historical stories - about half the total - he went round repeating 'we mustn't interfere', and all his wits were used just to get the TARDIS crew back together and out of there. I got a bit sick of later Doctors saving the universe every single week. Having said that, it was disgracefully Terran-centric that a time-travelling alien should regard all of our past (i.e. Earth pre-1960s) as inviolate 'history', and everything else as OK to mess around with.

When I compare Hartnell to McCoy, it's almost impossible to believe they're the same person. This is not meant as an insult to either of them - it's just that this weak, selfish, intelligent but slightly senile old man is a million miles away from the Seventh Doctor's omniscience.

Is there anyone out there who genuinely believes that the Doctor wanted to draw a map with that rock in An Unearthly Child? If so, please give reasons so that I can share your happy faith.

On the contrary, I think McCoy was similar to Hartnell, because they were both mysterious, even if it was in different ways.


unlike a certain film...

I know your comment about saving the universe every week is a glib one but the Doctor has only saved it nine times in 35 years. Mind you, goodness know how many times he's saved Earth, something that illustrates your point well.
I quite liked Hartnell's air of authority and annoyance at those who refused to believe what was in front of them.

That air of authority was the common thread in the Doctor's. It appeared in varying degrees of strength, but was one of his/their constant characteristics.

Ed, I'm kicking myself for not thinking of the mystery as a common factor for the first and seventh Doctors. But I always remember that scene in the Daleks when Hartnell's done something clever and he's capering around in a gleefully childish manner (an endearing trait shared by several Doctors) congratulating himself until he gets caught. I've spent years trying to work out the tortuous McCoy/Machiavellian complexities that lay behind his capture, before realising that he was just being stupid. I can just about imagine Troughton doing something like that - and then wailing 'oh my giddy aunt' - but the later ones, never. Hartnell was just so ignorant. By the way, I'll ignore your comment about a certain film. I know you love it really.

Chris - only nine times! I'm shocked and disappointed in him! Can you list them?

I was wondering why the mention of authority had me feeling sick, and now I've realised - it brought back the most overused phrase in the English language, 'such was the authority in the Doctor's voice...'

Sorry for the nausea, but you have to admit that the Doctor had a way of quietly convincing people to take directions from him. The only time I can think of where he couldn't was "Snakedance" (come to think of it, Davison's Doctor was the least authoratative of the 7, probably because of his apparent youth).

Smugness was also a common trait of the Doctors. Colin had it in spades.

Can I list them? Well, the first that spring to mind are in Logopolis and Planet Of Evil... it's 2am, I'm a little fuzzy. Maybe it was only seven.
Okay, authority was the wrong word to choose. The first Doctor didn't suffer fools gladly and didn't hesitate to say so.
And I think you mean that phrase is the most overused phrase in Doctor Who literature - more commonly overused phrases in the English language are "The cheque's in the mail" and "I'll call you tomorrow" (don't panic, I'm just being flippant).

Let's see, counting only the stories where it was implied there would total universal destruction, I get five:

Planet of Evil
Pyriamids of Mars
Logopolis
Terminus
Time and the Rani

Not including the novels, which I don't.

I think it was implied in The Mysterious Planet that a black light explosion MIGHT wipe out a large chunk of the universe. And then in The Two Doctors those time-travelling experiments of Dastari and co were a danger to the fabric of space-time...something like that, anyway.

I guess we can give partial credit for the "black light" explosion in TMP, though they could have come up with a better term. Black light makes me think of fluorescent posters in head shops.

The "danger to the fabric of space and time" might have been a bit of hyperbole on the part of the Doctor. However, if the Sontarans had got ahold of a time machine, I'm sure the resultant time meddling would have obliterated the universe.

So that's six and a half times.

No, I don't think you can count denying the Sontarans time travel as saving the universe. The daleks had time travel, and it didn't get them very far.

Well, let me develop my original thesis a bit. The Daleks had two extremely complicated time travel systems, the rare Dalekenium-powered time machines, and time corridor technology. Both made it difficult to just pop back in time and change the past. Plus, the 7th Doctor said (in "Remembrance of the Daleks") that even the Daleks weren't foolish enough to break the laws of time.

The Sontarans, on the other hand, are grade-A loonies. They would do anything to gain a victory in the glorious Sontaran-Rutan War. Plus, the time machine they were trying to steal was for all intents and purposes a TARDIS, and would have given them free travel through time and space.

I agree that the time corridor wasn't up to much, but I think the daleks' time-travel technology in The Chase was equal to the Time Lords' (and superior to the Doctor's TARDIS). And, unlike the Sontarans, they built it all themselves from scratch - and therefore would have had no difficulty creating others after Ian and Barbara blew the first one up.

While not disputing your assessment of the Sontarans, I disagree that they were madder than the daleks (remember a certain plan to hollow out the Earth's core?). At least the Sontarans had some sense of honour, however twisted and macho. I bet the daleks don't even have the word in their vocabulary banks.

I thought the Dalek time machine would only run on dalekanium, or some other made up and incredibly rare material. That was the stuff they needed in "The Dalek Master Plan." Once they ran out of it, their time machines wouldn't work. This might explain why the Daleks used time corridors from that point on (or else the time corridor using Daleks were from a point earlier in time).

The hollow Earth plan might have been grandiose, but it would have worked, because the Daleks were very efficient in using their slave labor force. The Sontarans' biggest fault was that they would always take time to torture their help for no good reason.

The Daleks are cruel, but seldom deliberately sadistic. Sontarans seem to enjoy abusing their captives.

Speaking of sad, that's what I am right now. I was this close to visting London next month, but the prices are too high. Maybe next year.

Terrible news...you mean I'll have to wait at least a year before meeting you, and, more importantly, your scarf?

I'll take your word on the Dalek TARDIS, since I have no intention of watching The Chase again for a very long time. But what about the time travel machines they used in Day of the Daleks? The stuff to make them must be fairly common and not well guarded, for the rebels to be able to steal the plans and the materials.

I see your point about Sontarans v Daleks. Maybe that's why I've never been scared of Daleks - they just exterminate you. Apart from the roboman business, of course, which IS chilling. I'm not sure that Sontarans ALWAYS torture people, though - the one time I remember torture it was for a purpose, to discover the weaknesses of the human race. In their place, I'd have soon started pulling the fingernails off that irritating Castellan in Invasion of Time.

I misremembered the metal; it was taranium. And I thought the rebels were using time corridor technology in "Day of the Daleks."

Well, in "The Sontaran Experiment", the Sontaran's experiments didn't seem to have a real point. I mean, why experiment on the astronauts to find out how to conquer Earthpeople if the bloody planet is uninhabited anyway? I think he was just killing time.

At least a year, Emily. Got to save up some money, or hope British Airways offers some really fab deals. I was really looking forward to hitting the pubs.

PUBS???? I thought you would visit all the Doctor Who haunts, which certainly do NOT include places of alcoholic sustenance (well, apart from in The Android Invasion and Terror of the Zygons and The Daemons and The Gunfighters and Battlefield...OK, I withdraw my last remark).

It never occurred to me that Day of the Daleks used time corridor technology. If so, it's more effective than I thought - albeit rather dangerous. It could easily be used to send a few Daleks back in time with a few bombs, to change the history of any planet they chose...providing the Doctor wasn't around, of course.

I blame the scripwriters rather than the Sontaran for those stupid experiments. Why are all two-parters so utterly pointless? I hope when Doctor Who comes back stories will continue to last 90 minutes (even if they ARE always padded) rather than adopt the 50-minute approach.

You don't even need the Daleks. Just put a timer on a bomb, set it in your time corridor, and send the bomb to when/where ever you want. It's sort of like a time torpedo.

I just remember reading in Ian Marter's sadistic novelization of "The Sontaran Experiment" how the Sontaran's commander kept asking him what was taking so long, and not getting a reasonable answer from his subordinate. Why? 'cause the Sontaran was getting his jollies from tor-chah!

Whatever my feelings are toward the Doctor, I still like to find a quiet spot in a pub/bar, get a pint or three, and read a book. Sunday afternoons are the best. Last time I was in London (Nov. 1997), I sat in a pub in Covent Gardens reading a collection of Bertie and Jeeves stories. Lovely.

There's always the Tom Baker pub crawl to follow.

Don't take Ian Marter's novelisation too seriously...he is obviously a bit of a psychopath (so unlike dear Harry, who is merely an imbecile). Have you read Tom Baker's autobiography, where Baker is literally drowning, and Marter's standing on the side saying 'he's not drowning, he's just PRETENDING to be drowning, and rather badly, too'?

That sounds like typical Harry. I guess Ian Marter was just playing himself.

Shouldn`t there be a section here for Richard Hurdnell? I don`t actually like him, I just want to slag him off. And if you`ve included Peter Cushing, then you really HAVE to include Hurdnell.

No slagging allowed.

Execept of the Telemovie of course. he he he

;-)

No slagging allowed? What am I going to do with all this gravel?

The beginning of this post can be found in Your first time in the Ask the Matrix section.

In 101,177 TL, The Master attempted to overthrow the Inner Council on Gallifrey with help from students of the Pyrodonian Academy. The rebellion was ruthlessly crushed by Citidel Guards, and there followed a series of bloody reprisals. During this reign of terror, the Doctor lost most of his family. Barely escaping with his life, he and his granddaughter, Susan, fley Gallifrey. They travelled to Earth, arriving there in A.D. 1963. The Master also managed to escape imprisonment on Gallifrey, becoming one of Gallifrey's most dangerous renegade Time Lords.
Enrolling Susan in Coal Hill School in London, the Doctor soon found himself involved with human Companions, thus beginning his recorded adventures through Earth's history. During on of these, he met the Master, disguised as the Meddling Monk (yes, I know most folks consider the two to be separate. G.L.), who was attempting to change Earth history by helping Harold defeat William the Conquerer at the Battle of Hastings. In addition, the Doctor assisted in stopping a Dalek invasion of Earth in A.D. 2164. He foiled a Dalek plot to wipe out Earth's history using a Time Destructor, and prevented the Cybermen of Mondas from draining Earth's energies.
In this first incarnation, the Doctor was a slender, stooped, elderly man. His high cheekbones, thin-lipped mouth, and sometimes severe expression gave him an air of austere superiority. This was enhanced by his long white hair, worn brushed back from a receding hairline, and his conservative Victorian dress.
Though his outward personality was that of an irascible, sarcastic old man, his dry wit and his true concern for his Companions more than made up for his ill temper. Impatient with the ignorance and failings of humans, he never allowed anyone to forget that, as a Gallifreyan, he was vastly superior to them. The First Doctor is considered by many to be the most scientific of the incarnations. Less interested in people than events, he enjoyed collecting facts and statisics. His knowledge of the histories of Earth and Gallifrey was extensive, and he often used this knowledge to draw helpful parallels between the two.
This incarnation of the Doctor spoke of being over six hundred years old and, eventually, his age caught up with him. Having grown fond of this body, he delayed his regeneration until it was almost too late. Fortunately, the TARDIS was able to trigger the regeneration process he was too weak to manage, and the Second Doctor came into being.

STR 9 (III), END 14 (IV), DEX 13 (IV), CHA 9 (III), MNT 21 (VI), ITN 21 (VI)
Race: Gallifreyan
Sex: Male
Height: Average
Build: Slim
Looks: Plain
Apparent Age: Old Adult

Well, I realise this was written back in the days of antiquity (i.e. 1986) when humankind was woefully ignorant of the Looms, the Other, etc, so I'll desist from criticising it on those grounds. And god knows I've got plenty of other grounds for criticism...

Why would Prydonion students help a rebellion against the High Council? They produced more Presidents than all the other Chapters put together! Surely it would be the others who rebelled?

If the Master had led such a serious rebellion on Gallifrey, why would the Doctor have to explain to Engin who the Master was?

If the Master's actions had resulted in the deaths of most of the Doctor's family, the Third Doctor would hardly dismiss him as a 'Jackanapes always stirring up trouble.' (Though it's not beyond the realms of possibility, given that he called Adolf Hitler a 'bounder'.) And the Time Lord in Terror of the Autons would have replied 'He did lead that revolution that killed hundreds' rather than 'He did get a better degree than you.'

If the Citadel guards murdered the Doctor's family, why was no mention made of this during the several occasions the guards met the Doctor. It certainly didn't come up in Deadly Assassin when the Time Lords were desperately looking for a motive for the Doctor assassinating the President.

The Doctor did NOT originally land on Earth in 1963 - he and Susan had several adventures with Henry VIII, the French Revolution etc before (somewhat bizarrely) deciding Coal Hill School was a better option.

THE MASTER IS NOT THE MONK!!! OK? Sorry about the shouting, but honestly, what rubbish...why not say that the Master is the Rani/Drax is Omega/Borusa is Susan instead?

Actually, the Doctor didn't stop the cybermen draining Earth's energies...he allowed them to drain the energies as a way of destroying Mondas.

The First Doctor never allowed anyone to forget he was a Gallifreyan, eh? Extensive knowledge of the history of Gallifey? Hmm...must have all been off-screen.

If he spoke of being over 600, it must have been in one of the lost episodes. The Second Doctor only claimed to be 450.

Emily, that whole post is taken from that old Doctor Who roleplaying game, which itself is riddled with inconsistencies ("Mawdryn Undead" did NOT really happen in 1994!).

To explain how laughable that game and everything in it was, one section featured profiled on the Doctor's companions as created by the Time Lords. One of Tegan's distinguishing features was 'great legs.' Methinks the Time Lords need to get out more. Whoever created that game certainly did.

Regarding pre-Ian-&-Barbra adventures, didn't the TARDIS show some of the places the Doctor (and presumably Susan) had been to before, in Edge of Destruction? (Been a few years since I've seen it, so I might not be remembering it accurately). There isn't much room for untelevised adventures between an Unearthly Child and EoD, although I suppose you might just squeeze one in before EoD, and the travelers lost memory of it.
Also, the Doctor remembered the Zarbi planet but Ian didn't.

Aaagghhh...if I'd known the whole thing was some role-playing rubbish I wouldn't have bothered ripping it to pieces.

Has William Hartnell ever done a proper television interview?

Not recently ;-)

IIRC, there was a radio interview- Desert Island Discs. there was a transcript in an old DWM Summer Special (1995?)

There were some extracts from that in The First Doctor Handbook.

Before I forget to do so:

Happy deathday to Who
Happy deathday to Who
Happy deathday Bill Hartnell
Happy deathday to Whoooooooo

William Hartnell died on this day 25 years ago.

TWENTY FIVE YEARS!!!!!!!!! This _really_ brings home how old the programme is :(

The fact the show will be 37 years old in November isn't enough for you?

Multiple exclamation marks. A sure sign of an unstable mind.

Who, me???????????????????

Well, I'll take your word for it. Anyone who sings 'Happy deathday to Whoooooooo' would know all about such matters.

Chris, somehow I've got used to the fact that the show is in its 30s. After all, it's younger than it looks, having been more-or-less in suspended animation for the last ten and a half years. And I can always tell myself that it's no older than Mike, and he's not senile and drooling just yet. But to have one of the Doctors DEAD for quarter of a century is quite shocking.

I know I'll feel old when it's 25 years since Patrick Troughton died (it's 13 at present; he died in 1987) - I actually remember hearing it on the radio, whereas I was far too young to remember Hartnell's death.

What makes me feel old is Troughton and Pertwee deaths. Not because of how long ago, but because I watched them as a kid, and now I am far away from that kid and my TV heroes are gone. Baker will probably be next, and that will make feel really old. When I saw him on TV he was a youngish vigorous guy, as well as the Nicholas Courtney, and now when I see recent interviews or photos of them, it really bugs me how old they look.

I wonder how old I look?

I'm not sure if I should take Emily's comments about me as compliments or not. It is true that I'm not drooling or senile--yet.
;-)

How many of you have gone to see Fantasia 2000? In the intro to Rhapsody in Blue, we are shown the pianist, and my first thought was that he looks an awful lot like William Hartnell. I'm pretty sure this isn't some personal delusion, since just seconds after I noticed this, my dad sitting next to me said, "Hey, it's Doctor Who."
Concerning that bit above about Saving The Universe, what about The Three Doctors? Surely thwarting Omega's energy draining scheme counts as Saving The Universe.

Yes, but what use was the First Doctor? IIRC, all he did was to tell the other Doctors to go into the anti-matter universe. And they'd have got dragged there sooner or later, anyway. Numbers 2 and 3 were the ones who came up with the plan to sacrifice one of the Doctor's most treasured Companions, the recorder, to destroy...er...well...to get rid of Omega.

By the way, did anyone else find themselves crying their eyes out at the loss of the recorder the first time they saw The Three Doctors?

The recorder is considered a Companion? Does this mean that the Sonic Screwdriver, the scarf, the celery stalk and the umbrella are also Companions?
I'm given to understand that in the original script of The Three Doctors, the First Doctor did a lot more. However, they had to chage quite a bit when it was obvious that Hartnell wasn't up to it.

Of course the Sonic Screwdriver is a Companion, accompanying no less than six Doctors. When the Terileptils murdered it, the Doctor said it was like losing an old friend. Which was more than he said when Adric kicked the bucket.

To me the Scarf is an integral part of the Fourth Doctor rather than a separate Companion in its own right. (You'll note the way that Tom Baker's usurper, sorry, successor, made sure he unravelled the Scarf stitch by stitch - unlike the Companions, who were permitted to stay on.) I was quite shocked at the Doctor's cowardice and treachery when he tried to wriggle out of a murder charge by urging the Leisure Hive authorities to 'arrest the scarf.' But then, juding by the Sixth/Seventh Doctor regeneration business, it's not unheard of for a Doctor to betray bits of himself.

The celery stalk - hmm, limp and colourless, just like the Doctor in question ;) I'd say it was just part of that god-awful costume of his. After all, it never DID anything...I know it was supposed to warn him about gases or something, but it never had the opportunity to display that ability.

The umbrella...well, it _was_ quite useful for getting into Dalek spaceships with, and it _did_ accompany the Doctor through almost sixty books, as well as his TV appearances...and McCoy was _very_ careful to shove that red question-mark in our faces at every available opportunity, but...sorry...it just didn't have enough CHARACTER to make it to Companion status. IMHO.

Um...come to think of it...it did have at least as much character as Stephen, Dodo, Ben, Polly and Liz...

Would you count Bessie as a companion? - it's accompanied three Doctors and even travelled through time and space (in The Five Doctors).

Oh, wht not? She did capture the Master in The Daemons, which is more than most Companions manage. And, as you say, she has the honour of travelling in time and space - miraculously managing to return herself to Earth from Gallifrey and the anti-matter universe.

Aren't we forgetting the TARDIS! She's big, wheezy, old and is the only one to make the Doctor seem like a companion! She's been more of a cuss than Turlough and she's saved his bacon more times than all the Organic Companions put together!

What about Hartnell's blue cygnet ring?

What about Hartnell's blue cygnet ring?

I think it's spelt 'signet'. Well, as it accompanied the First Doctor everywhere, and as it was a *gasp* MAGIC ring that could miraculously restore the TARDIS lock after it had been destroyed, and as Ben used it to 'prove' that the Second Doctor wasn't the real Doctor (what a cretin), then I suppose, reluctantly, I'd have to accept the ring as a Companion. But I can't say it ever impinged greatly on my consciousness. I didn't even know it was blue.

As for the TARDIS...My hero! Of course she's a Companion - the oldest and greatest and most faithful...second only to the Doctor himself. I loved it when she actually started taking action herself in Christmas on a Rational Planet...actually, even when she's not doing anything, I love just staring at that blue box.

Isn't a cygnet a baby swan or something?

I have to agree Emily: that ring never really made an impression on me. It's only ever really come to prominence twice - to open the TARDIS in the absence of plot ingenuity and to make Ben wonder what the actor Patrick Troughton was doing in William Hartnell's pants.

Yes, a cygnet is a baby swan. As Western Australia's state emblem is a black swan, I have that spelling of cygnet ingrained on my consciousness.

It was a blue crystal in the ring... what is it with the Doctor and blue crystals?

It is a known fact that William Hartnell quit the show because he felt the show was getting too violent. He felt it should have been a more educational show. His idea was to have the Doctor time travel to different periods of history and re-live it so the kids who are watching can learn a valuable history lesson from the programme.

well know? well known but wrong the reason he left he became very ill and could not contiue.

True, but....

I have the book "Doctor Who-A Celebration"
and on pg 39 that not only did he have multiple sclerosis, but he wrote in Aug. of 1968: "I left because we did not see eye to eye over the stories and too much evil entered into the spirit of the thing. It was noted and spelled out the it was a children's programme, and I wanted to stay as such.But I'm afraid, the BBC had other ideas. So did I, so I left."

So you are correct from a certain point of view.

It sounds so much better to resign on a point of principle - protecting the innocent youth of the country - rather than saying 'I'm resigning because I'm old and ill and going senile.'

Hartnell suffered from hardened arteries all through his career as the Doctor. They were probably responsible for the memory lapses that caused some of his more famous fluffed lines.

By the 4th season, not only was he disagreeing with the direction the show was taking (a common occurrance; it happened to Pertwee and Tom Baker too), but his health was continueing to decline. Keep in mind that back then, they shot over 40 episodes a seaons, compared with 26 during Tom Baker's time, and a lousy 16 during McCoy's time.

It wasn't even 16 in McCoy's time - it was 14!!!!!!!!!!!! Mind you, we shouldn't complain...who wouldn't happily sell their soul to have a whole glorious FOURTEEN episodes of Doctor Who this year?

I am first in line, Emily. Here is my soul, for whatever it is worth, so where is my fourteen episodes?

Pertaining to Multiple Sclerosis. I think there may be some confusion. MS is caused by demyelination of the fibers between nerve cells in the brain and/or spine. Nobody really knows why this happens, though viruses or auto immune disease are possible candidates. Affects more women than men, more caucasions than others. It can cause memory loss, numbness in extremities, loss of vision or motor control, paralysis, etc, etc. It's like having lots of mini strokes. It can cause a lot of fatigue as well. It is a wonder that Hartnell lasted as long as he did.

The medical term I was looking for was "arteriosclerosis", more popularly known at hardening of the arteries. He did not have MS. HotA causes fatigue, pain, increased chance of infection in the extremities, increased chance of blood clots, and increased chance of strokes. The fatigue and pain could have caused him to become forgetful (I know it does to me!).

Must be my mistake. I just took that the quote from pg.33 2nd para of 'Doctor Who 25 Glorious Years': "...because of the the declining health of William Hartnell in the title role (he was suffering from multiple sclerosis)..." must have been true.

Sorry.

:)

Peter Haining doesn't have a reputation for being the most reliable of sources.

I understand he can't even remember his own phone number. :-))

For that matter, I can never remember my own phone number.

But then, I don't have much need to call myself.

What about when you order pizza and they ask for the number?

I wonder if the Doctor's ever ordered pizza from the TARDIS?

Does he order an 18" and let Jamie and Victoria tuck in, or does he order a 6" and keep it for himself?

I can see where this is leading: What would the Doctor put on a pizza? And, of course, what wouldn't he put on one?

I can't really see the first Doctor eating pizza.

In this age of Caller ID, half the time they don't ask for my phone number, they already have it. Otherwise, I just read off the number I had written on the phone. No real need for use of memory, which is fortunate, after all the ztupid things I'd imbibed or smoked back in my twenties.

Ahhh! Those were the days.

I suspect the Doctor would like anchovies and Spanish olives on his pizza. Maybe once in a while throw in some jalapenos. Definately not pineapple and Canadian bacon.

Chris, I was making a reference to the Second Doctor there, who of all the Doctors looks as though he could tuck into a ham and pineapple quite merrily.

What I want to know is: Do Time Lords/The Doctor have the same need for food as we do? Of course we've seen the guy eat, but notice how he'll only eat food if it is there. In 'The Invasion', the Doctor is offered cucumber sandwiches, and eats them, and in 'Day of the Daleks' he helps himself to cheese and wine. In 'The Aztecs' he is offered cocoa. How often does the Doctor go 'I'm hungry' and deliberately set out to find food? I can only think of 'The Five Doctors', when the First Doctor asks for refreshments, (and even then he seems to only do it to annoy Tegan). Come to think of it, as an aside, isn't the First Doctor's reaction and attitude towards Tegan throughout the story strange? What's going on there then?

I envisioned the Seventh Doctor eating pizza more than any of the others, although considering the Sixth Doctor's girth...

I'm not sure if it's in the televised version but in The Two Doctors the Second Doctor tells Jamie "One meal a day is quite sufficient!"

The First Doctor did have a food machine, which seemed to indicate he needed food at regular intervals.

As the for the First Doctor/Tegan thing, I just put it down his age/her youth and the fact both of them were quite temperamental.

He was probably thinking, "...my future self slept with her? This is embarrasing. What do I say to my future lover? Certainly not Will it be good for you as it will be good for me? Better just be my irritible self and tell her to make tea or something..."

Sorry, but like I said before, elsewhere, I like this theory about the Fifth Doc and Tegan so much that it has warped my mind forever.

The Sixth and Second Docs both felt famished and searched for food in the Two Doctors. However, there was an Androgum factor at work at the time.

I can't remember the Fourth Doctor episode (was it 'The Pirate Planet'? Hmm), but instead of getting right down to business he tells his host, "Do you know what I need right now more than anything else in the universe? Breakfast!"
As they made such a big deal out of the Seventh Doctor's vegetarianism, he'd obviously order one minus any meat products.
I doubt the First or Third Doctors would eatpizza, thinking they're too good for such 'fun food'.

The First Doctor would certainly look at the pizza with suspicion ('Hmm? What's this then, my boy?') but once he'd tucked in, he'd be giggling happily to himself.

#2 - I suppose I can picture him munching on a slice of pizza and tootling away on his recorder between bites.

I think CBC's right about the Third Doctor. Mr One-Man-Wine-And-Cheese-Party is too good for fast food. Though I suppose if Benton and Yates were tucking into a pizzza along with a mug of cocoa, he might condescend to join them.

Tom Baker would go for a salami-covered one, if Masque of Mandragora is anything to go by.

Doctor #5 might ask for a pizza, but would then get Adric to eat it (a la Kinda).

Whether the Sixth Doctor would eat pizza or not depends entirely who his Companion was at the time - I don't see Mel allowing it. And even Peri called him 'porky'. Though I suspect she'd rather ring out for one than suffer another of his nut roast rolls.

Yup, I can certainly picture Sylvester and Ace munching away at a pizza (with appropriate cries of 'Wicked!' every so often, just in case anyone was actually starting to respect Ace) - vegetarian, of course, to salve the Doctor's conscience in between blowing up planets.

I can definitely picture the Eighth Doctor ringing out for a pizza. Him and his half-humanness *contemptuous snort*.

The Doctor could open up his own pizza franchise
and call it "Pizza Tardis" (instead of "Pizza Hut")

SLOGAN:
"Order your pizza today...receive it yesterday."

Was the Seventh Doctor a vegetarian? I thought that was the Sixth Doctor, after the events of The Two Doctors.

I always thought the 6th Doctor said that tounge-in-cheek. I didn't think he meant it literally.

So why the nut rolls in Revelation of the Daleks and then there's all that "carrot juice, carrot juice, carrot juice!"

Yup, the Sixth Doctor definitely stuck by his word re vegetarianism (except in the Eight Doctors, for some reason), and the Seventh and Eighth Doctors continued as veggies. The Doctors have come a long way since Troughton and his fur coat.

William Hartnell confronts the pizza delivery boy:

"Young man, I distinctly remember saying I wanted a pizza with mushrrr...with anchovies. Now do these look like anchovies to you? Well, do they, hmmm? Certainly not!"

I can't remember, but did the Doctor have a marsh minnow at some point?

Does anyone know what a nut roast roll is? Or had one even?

William Hartnell addressing the pizza place after he's had his pizza:
"One day, I shall come back. Yes, I shall come back. Until then, there must be no burnt crusts, no short-changing, and no anchovies. Just go forward in all your pizza-making, and prove to me that my pizza isn't the sort of thing you make all the time."

IF there is a veggie message, (which I don't really believe), then it all comes to a head in Survival. The Master raises a finished chicken leg above his head, about to bludgeon the Doctor senseless, when the Doctor gives his 'if we fight like animals we die like animals!' speech.

But he's eating jelly babies again by the telemovie - aren't they made from gelatin, which comes from cows?

They're from space cows, so they don't count.

Are space cows not animals?

Perhaps they're free-range space cows who consented to have their bellies liposucked.

Must be one of those that are breed to actually want to be eaten and was capable of saying so clearly and distinctly. I hope they kill themselves humanely.

Probably from the same planet as the talking pig (aka Peter Davison) in 'Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy'.

At some point, someone (I think Chris Thomas) posted a link to a website that was trying to create a computer-gnerated Hartnel to sync to the existing audio tracks of the lost episodes. I don't have the link anymore (it was at least once computer ago). If the site is still operational, does anyone stil have it?

Five years ago Emily wrote : in the historical stories - about half the total - he went round repeating 'we mustn't interfere'

Have we ever had a story where the Doctor travels to a planet that isn't Earth and has to avoid getting involved in its history because he knows its future? 'Legacy' is the only one I can think of in the books.

"The Final Sanction" is another. Of course the 2nd Doctor ends up interfering, but things still turn out (more or less) as they were supposed to.

In "Warmonger" the 5th Doctor makes a half-hearted attempt not to interfere with Karn's past, then ends up become the Supremo.

"Colony of Lies" has an interesting situation wherein the 2nd Doctor is manipulated by the 7th Doctor to fix things on an Earth colony.

For the Big Finish Audios...
Primeval has the 5th Doctor becoming involved in Traken's history (Effectively, he becomes the First Keeper for a short time).
Spare Parts has the 5th Doctor becoming involved in Mondas'es history very early in "Cyber-Evolution" with the result that
his genetic structure, is used to solve one of the "Problems" they have with the "Cyberisation Process". (Essentally, each Cyberman has a part of the "5th Doctor" inside them...).

So why is it okay for the Doctor to refuse to interfere with our history but it's no problem to interfere in our future? Isn't that somebody's history too? Where (and why) does he draw the line?

Truth is, The Kevin, he only seems to draw the line when he feels like it.

he only seems to draw the line when he feels like it.

Hey, that's not fair! I'm sure even heartless Hartnell FELT like taking that Anne Chapellette (or however you spell it) girl away in the TARDIS (quite apart from (probably) saving her life, there's nothing he likes more than kidnapping young females) but sadly the Who scriptwriters in those days were too thick to realise that a time traveller might not have quite the same perspective as them vis-a-vis past and future.

The only (non-factual) explanation I can think of for the Doctor's ludicrous double standards is that he's a bit of an expert on pre-twenty-first-century Earth, but not on (our) future Earth, or on other planets. Hence he can land and happily start meddling anywhere else, because he doesn't KNOW that this isn't the way it's supposed to happen.

However, this still doesn't explain why he didn't rescue Anne, since there would be nothing in the history books to suggest she DIDN'T get whizzed off round time and space. And it doesn't explain why he never seems to stop and wonder whether, say, that Happiness Patrol planet was actually supposed to have a revolution that day. (Especially since Castrovalva, where the existence of a comprehensive TARDIS databank is revealed - he could always have looked such things up.)

Spare Parts has the 5th Doctor becoming involved in Mondas'es history

Yeah, and that is WEIRD. I don't believe for a moment that any Doctor - even the arch-manipulator Seventh or the bull-in-a-china-shop Sixth (let alone that wimpish Fifth) would try to destroy the Cybermen at the point of creation with a casual 'Oh, history's old enough to look after itself.'

I mean, it's not as if the Fourth was particularly enthusiastic (or successful) about wiping out the Daleks in Genesis, even with the specific blessing of the Time Lords, AND the warning that Daleks'd end up conquering the entire universe if he didn't stop them.

Frontios is the one non-Hartnell-historical TV story where the Doctor adopts a 'mustn't interfere' attitude. Though that was just because he was scared the Time Lords would catch him at it. (I don't think Mawdryn Undead counts, as his 'Bog off and live with the consequences of your actions' speech is solely an attempt to save his own skin. LOTS of his own skins. Nothing to do with history, or the Web of Time as we call it these days. (When DID that phrase start coming into use?))

Happy 100th birthday to the man who tarted, erm, started it all.

I think we are gentler on Hartnell then we would be had he lived into the era of organised fandom - according to people like Nick Courtney, Hartnell held a number of racist/xenophobic and anti Semitic views - after the social changes of the 1970s these views would have seemed pretty toxic and it is easy to see Hartnell facing harsh criticism from both fandom and others in the wider public in the 1980s and 90s had he lived

True, but then, EVERYONE was a filthy sexist racist homophobe in those prehistoric times. You can't blame a man TOO much for being too old and, well, senile to adjust once revolutionary ideas like 'equality' FINALLY started becoming fashionable.

Would people have done to Hartnell what Ben Elton and the others did to Benny Hill?

It's certainly worth pondering

What DID Ben Elton do to Benny Hill?

Re: "Benny Hill"
He did a "politically correct" parody of the Benny Hill chase sequence, on one of his shows in the late 80's, in which the "Benny Hill" character was putting on clothing, on scantily clad women amoungst other things, which results in the chase sequence...
The sequence ends with a grinning Elton showing off a badge with "I Love Being Disciplined By Strong Women..." written on it...
Unfortunately, Paul Hogan had beaten him to it, in that he did a parody of said sequence during his Austrailian T.V shows, during the late 70's, but shown on Channel 4 during the Mid-80's...
(His parody chase sequence was a "crossover" version, with Hawaii 5-0, in that Steve McGarrett, was doing the pursuing of Hogan's "Benny Hill" character...).

MANDY (in Keys of Marinus thread): I find myself far more interested in Ian's exploits than the Doctor's.

Well, you're SUPPOSED to be, at this stage. Ian is the Hero: Hartnell is the Anti-Hero. He'll grow on you. Really. He used to be my least-favourite Doctor (obviously Colin didn't make it within a million miles of my Favourite Doctors list) but now I THINK he may have edged ahead of Davison and Pertwee. He's so sweet and giggly and twinkle-eyed one minute, and so unexpectedly evil the next. (Plus, Marinus doesn't exactly showcase his talents, being designed so that he can take a few weeks off.)

Dalek Invasion of Earth is next on the list, which I think is the next season. I hear he's much better after his first year, but he'll have to wait a little while first. Sharpe has already been put off once.

Dalek Invasion of Earth is next on the list

Ah, what a fantastic story!

Alright, in a slightly over-padded way, but still...it wipes the floor with that Sharpe thing (admittedly I've never actually seen Sharpe but the Completely Useless Encyclopedia has told me everything I need to know about it, viz, that it hasn't got Paul McGann in it).

I hear he's much better after his first year

Well, he's certainly mellowed a bit. And finally realised that his raison d'etre is planet-saving. Sadly Dalek Invasion has a little less Hartnelly goodness in it than it should, given that some ramp collapsed (bloody shoddy Dalek technology!) and William Hartnell got hurt and David Campbell had to take over his heroic bomb-defusing activities. Or something.

but he'll have to wait a little while first. Sharpe has already been put off once.

Unless Sharpe has a regular career in SAVING THE UNIVERSE he'd bloody well better get used to being put off for his elders and betters.

So Hartnell was 200 years old when he stole the TARDIS (The Doctor's Wife). I'm sorry, but...how the hell was Troughton 450 in Tomb! It's not like Hartnell OR Troughton had time for more than a few years of adventures once they started taking strays on board (there were NO gaps between Companions that I can think of AT ALL).

So...Hartnell and Susan were whizzing round the universe pre-Unearthly Child for 250 years? Given that she's a helpless cry-baby and he's a frail, mistrustful, curious, murderous, incompetent, suicidally fearless old man...how the HELL did they SURVIVE??

I thought the Doctor was 400 when he met Ian and Barbara? That would make it 200 yrs, but still, point taken.

Worse yet: it's really hard to believe that the Doctor could whiz around the universe for 250 year and NOT have heard of the Daleks. Even if they'd just left Gallifrey shortly before Unearthly Child this stretches belief.

However, the discrpenecy between the new series Doctor's age and McCoy's show that there are different ways of measuring time and age. And doesn't he, in The Empty Child, refer to 900 of police box travels? Something doesn't add up.

I thought the Doctor was 400 when he met Ian and Barbara?

Not that I remember...where did you get that impression?

it's really hard to believe that the Doctor could whiz around the universe for 250 year and NOT have heard of the Daleks.

HELL yeah.

However, the discrpenecy between the new series Doctor's age and McCoy's show that there are different ways of measuring time and age.

As, of course, does Pertwee's 'I'm several thousand years old' claim...*sigh*...

And doesn't he, in The Empty Child, refer to 900 of police box travels? Something doesn't add up.

Yes, that never added up. The early New Who episodes implied he was 900 years old, had been called the Doctor for 900 years, AND had travelled in the TARDIS for 900 years.

Now I'm picturing him being christened 'Doctor' and crawling determinedly from the font into that blue box...

I thought the Doctor was 400 when he met Ian and Barbara?

Not that I remember...where did you get that impression?

Dunno. I think I read somewhere that his first body lasted 400 yrs.

Probably because in Tomb of the Cybermen, he states being 450 tears old.

From Wikipedia, because I don't feel like rephrasing:
In The Ribos Operation, Romana said the Doctor was 759 years old and had been piloting the TARDIS for 523 years, making him 236 when he first "borrowed" it.

The Doctor trying to get into a nightclub:

First attempt: "Oh, what's that? You want to see my ID, hmm? Well, I like
to take long walks and arrive before I leave, you know! Hee hee. And I'm a
gentleman of the universe and a citizen to boot, young man!"

Second Attempt: "Now, Jamie, I'll distract him, you move over to the
side...and when I say run...RUN!"

Third Attempt: "Well, of course I'm a member, old chap! Didn't Tubby
Rowlands teach you anything?"

Fourth Attempt: "You know, it's amazing the linear relationship between
the popularity of the nightclub and the size of the bouncer!"

Fifth Attempt: "TEGAN! Make a wish!!!"

Sixth Attempt: "No, you can't come in. *I'm* the bouncer now!"

Seventh Attempt: "Crush the lesser patrons, conquer the dance floor.
Unimaginable techno, unlimited rice pudding and so on and so on. But it
won't detract from the fundamental truth of your own impotence. I have
pity *for* you."

Eighth Attempt: /distracts bouncer by telling him he's half a giraffe and
steals *his* ID.

FRANCOIS in Doctors: General Discussion thread:

Also, Hartnell may have been an antisocial old misogynist, but that may just have been the result of putting up with centuries of Timelordy bullsh*t from his own kind.

Well, what do we actually KNOW about those years (now that the books n'audios have been well and truly decanonised, not that Divided Loyalties EVER came within a million light-years of the truth in the FIRST place)?

Doctor was forced to stare into the Untempered Schism aged eight. This did NOT have a beneficial effect. (Sound of Drums)

Doctor ran across the Master's dad's estates with the little-Master. (End of Time)

Doctor always wanted to drive a steam train. (Black Orchid)

Doctor n'chums spoilt each other's time experiments for fun. (Time Monster)

Doctor scored 51% in his exams at the second attempt. (Ribos Operation)

Doctor was told by tutor that he'd never amount to anything in the universe while he retained his propensity for vulgar facetiousness. (Deadly Assassin)

Doctor knew Runcible the Fatuous. (Deadly Assassin)

Doctor nicked a TARDIS (or vice-versa). (War Games, Doctor's Wife)

Doctor nicked several weapons of mass destruction. (Remembrance of the Daleks, Silver Nemesis)

Doctor somehow acquired a granddaughter. And even children (Unearthly Child, Doctor's Daughter)

Doctor had rather adorable cradle. (A Good Man Goes to War)

ROBERT: That was after spending 400 years on Gallifrey, the most tedious inhabited place in the galaxy.

Oh, come on! Orange skies! Silver trees! Constant alien invasions! What's not to love?

Had a family (Tomb of the Cybmermen)

Studied with an old hermit who lived halfway up a mountain (Time Monster, Planet of the Spiders, State of Decay)

May have been expelled (Deadly Assassin)

Has visited Vortis (The Web Planet)

Campaigned against Time Scoop technology (Carnival of Monsters)

Has never heard of the Daleks (The Daleks)

Oh, come on! Orange skies! Silver trees! Constant alien invasions! What's not to love?

Your fellow sentients. The alien invasions didn't start until Omega came back. Before that, all Time Lords were insufferable bores in public, even if half of them were apparently secretly plotting to rule the universe.

On top of that, there's apparently no fiction on Gallifrey - their TV broadcasts endless elaborate ceremonies, and their books are all dry fact, which is why the Doctor, and the Master, are so fond of human fiction.

Was a pioneer amongst his own people (The Daleks)

Robert - there's apparently no fiction on Gallifrey
They do seem to turn fact into nursery rhymes (The Five Doctors) & legends (State Of Decay) though.

Studied with an old hermit who lived halfway up a mountain (Time Monster, Planet of the Spiders, State of Decay)

Oh god, that ******* hermit and his ******* daisiest daisy...

Has visited Vortis (The Web Planet)

Couldn't that have happened AFTER he left Gallifrey for good? We don't know how many months, or indeed centuries, of adventuring he and Susan might have done before bumping into those interfering schoolteachers...

What's not to love?

Your fellow sentients.

Yeah, but all you REALLY need is ONE Best Friend with intelligence, a sense of humour, and a lifelong devotion to you and it doesn't really matter what everyone else is like. And the Doctor HAD that - and all these centuries, lives, and genocides later the Master's STILL devoted to him...

Plus, if Weird Woman From End of Time really IS the Doctor's Mum, SHE seemed OK. Highly principled, in fact.

The alien invasions didn't start until Omega came back.

I wouldn't bet on that. The War Chief/Lord/whatever's men got in easily enough.

On top of that, there's apparently no fiction on Gallifrey - their TV broadcasts endless elaborate ceremonies, and their books are all dry fact

Ah, but, whatever Christmas on a Rational Planet says to the contrary, Gallifrey DOES unexpectedly have fairy stories - the Toclafane, the Dalek Emperor's New Clothes, Snow White and the Seven Keys to Doomsday...

Of course, what the Time Lords DON'T have is a programme called Doctor Who. Which is obviously why they went so hideously off the rails.

which is why the Doctor, and the Master, are so fond of human fiction.

Look, just because you see 'em reading a bit of H G Wells once every three or four centuries doesn't mean they like human fiction. Personally I regard them both - especially the Doctor - as illiterate cretins.

Couldn't that have happened AFTER he left Gallifrey for good?

Absolutely. I thought we were naming pre-Unearthly Child happenings.


We don't know how many months, or indeed centuries, of adventuring he and Susan might have done before bumping into those interfering schoolteachers...

I got the impression from Edge of Destruction that it hadn't been too long. Don't make me watch it to find out though. Or was it Remembrance?


Doctor nicked several weapons of mass destruction. (Remembrance of the Daleks, Silver Nemesis)

Not sure about 'nicked.' He seems to have had a hand in inventing them. Having trouble with the prototype and all...

Yeah, but all you REALLY need is ONE Best Friend with intelligence, a sense of humour, and a lifelong devotion to you and it doesn't really matter what everyone else is like.

When did the Master leave Gallifrey though? He stole some files immediately before he started pestering Three but, even discounting Dark Path, I got the impression he'd been a renegade long before that

It seems plausible that the Master took off well before the Tardis stole the Doctor. He may have spent decades where his only choice for company was between the likes of Runcible and the Rani, enough to embitter anyone.

I wouldn't bet on that. The War Chief/Lord/whatever's men got in easily enough.

True. Still, Gallifrey never acted like it was getting invaded every few years, and they're not likely to have been denying the obvious, like we humans. They're not quite that daft.

Gallifrey DOES unexpectedly have fairy stories - the Toclafane, the Dalek Emperor's New Clothes, Snow White and the Seven Keys to Doomsday...

All clearly just for the Time Tots. Has any Time Lord ever quoted from a fiction aimed at adults?

just because you see 'em reading a bit of H G Wells once every three or four centuries doesn't mean they like human fiction.

The Doctor's also read Harry Potter, and the Master seem to like BBC kid's programming. All considered, there's much more evidence that they like human fiction than there is they like any hypothetical fiction Gallifrey might have managed to produce.

The Doctor's also read Harry Potter, and the Master seem to like BBC kid's programming. All considered, there's much more evidence that they like human fiction than there is they like any hypothetical fiction Gallifrey might have managed to produce.

The Doctor called himself Charles Dickens's greatest fan in The Unquiet Dead, liked Shakespeare and Agatha Christie so much that he introduced them to his companions, and even brought Donna to the largest librarie in the known universe. Yeah, I'd say he does like fiction in general, and human fiction in particular.

We don't know how many months, or indeed centuries, of adventuring he and Susan might have done before bumping into those interfering schoolteachers...

I got the impression from Edge of Destruction that it hadn't been too long. Don't make me watch it to find out though.

That would be too cruel. The next sucker to endure the Longest Two Episodes In Recorded History must keep an eye open, though.

Doctor nicked several weapons of mass destruction. (Remembrance of the Daleks, Silver Nemesis)

Not sure about 'nicked.' He seems to have had a hand in inventing them. Having trouble with the prototype and all...

I'm sure when he said 'Didn't we have trouble with the prototype' he meant 'we' as a species. (Though when he guiltily corrects it to 'they' I do start to wonder. But let's face it: THE DOCTOR LIES.)

When did the Master leave Gallifrey though? He stole some files immediately before he started pestering Three but, even discounting Dark Path, I got the impression he'd been a renegade long before that

I don't see why they shouldn't have left at the same time...probably after a REALLY BIG lovers' tiff. Or maybe just because of a bet. I just can't picture the Doctor following in the Master's footsteps in the way you're assuming. Plus isn't the Master's TARDIS a newer model? (In fact, Moffat made Gaiman rewrite a bit of Doctor's Wife where it's implied the Doctor was following in the Corsair's footsteps, cos the Doctor just doesn't do that with ANYONE. (Well, actually he does with I M Foreman in Interference and BOY is he horrified to discover that he's not quite the pioneer he took himself for.))

He may have spent decades where his only choice for company was between the likes of Runcible and the Rani, enough to embitter anyone.

He could, of course, always have tried to DEVOTE A LITTLE TIME TO HIS FAMILY - at least one sprog, granddaughter, mum, and brother at the last count.

Still, Gallifrey never acted like it was getting invaded every few years, and they're not likely to have been denying the obvious, like we humans. They're not quite that daft.

They TOTALLY are that daft! Even we humans vaguely ask where we're getting our energy supplies from, every now and then. These are the people who FORGET TO LOCK THEIR CELL DOORS. Of course they'd constantly suppress evidence that conflicts with their worldview that they're infinitely superior to everyone else and life is also really, really boring.

All clearly just for the Time Tots. Has any Time Lord ever quoted from a fiction aimed at adults?

Oh.

No.

Though a 'Doctor ? In An Exciting Adventure with the Enemy' was mentioned in Taking of Planet 5...what d'you MEAN, that's not for adults?!

the Master seem to like BBC kid's programming.

Though in the first instance he didn't actually realise it WAS kids' programming...

All considered, there's much more evidence that they like human fiction than there is they like any hypothetical fiction Gallifrey might have managed to produce.

Yeah, but bear in mind the Doctor's Earth-obsession knows no bounds.

The Doctor called himself Charles Dickens's greatest fan in The Unquiet Dead, liked Shakespeare and Agatha Christie so much that he introduced them to his companions

Oh. Yeah. TOTALLY forgot about all that, cos I NEVER BLOODY SEE HIM READING A BOOK. I'd like to accuse him of lying through his teeth, but his enthusiasm was SO genuine and he really did seem to know what he was talking about (well, when it came to Dickens. I'm a little suspicious he didn't know the NAME of Harry Potter Book 7...).

and even brought Donna to the largest librarie in the known universe.

Only because he was curious about who was sending him psychic paper kisses. Not because...y'know...HE WANTED TO READ A GOOD BOOK or anything.

(And WHAT a philistine. Leaving ALL those wonderful books to the Vashta Nerada...)

I don't see why they shouldn't have left at the same time...probably after a REALLY BIG lovers' tiff.

The Doctor left pretty soon after he stumbled across the Tardis, not something he did on purpose. It'd be too coincidental if that just happened to be at the same time as the Master acquiring his first Tardis.

He could, of course, always have tried to DEVOTE A LITTLE TIME TO HIS FAMILY - at least one sprog, granddaughter, mum, and brother at the last count.

Presumably a father and wife too, but he doesn't seem to have been on good terms with them. He never tried to contact any of them on his return visits to Gallifrey, and neither he nor Susan showed any sign of missing their company.

Though a 'Doctor ? In An Exciting Adventure with the Enemy' was mentioned in Taking of Planet 5...what d'you MEAN, that's not for adults?!

It may be for adults, but it's not fiction. It's a true account of the Doctor's daring deeds, lightly disguised to get round the censors.

Only because he was curious about who was sending him psychic paper kisses.

Well, the Tardis library is even better.

Anyway, the Doctor definitely knew the Master and the Rani before leaving Gallifrey, but how close was he to them?

cos I NEVER BLOODY SEE HIM READING A BOOK.

I've seen him read at least one, in the Fox telemovie. Anyone remembers the title? I do, I'm just curious to see if anyone else payed attention.

The Doctor left pretty soon after he stumbled across the Tardis, not something he did on purpose.

Oh, it was TOTALLY something he did on purpose. He was obviously trying ALL the doors of ALL the TT capsules (or whatever they called them) and - being too thick to nick or make a key - he had to take the only one who left her door invitingly open.

It'd be too coincidental if that just happened to be at the same time as the Master acquiring his first Tardis.

Ah, but it WOULDN'T be coincidental if they'd had either a) a bet about who'd go out into the big wide universe first (and who'd nab the most WMD in the process), or b) a flaming row, resulting in them simulataneously deciding that now they'd lost each other they had nothing whatsoever to keep them on Gallifrey.

Presumably a father and wife too, but he doesn't seem to have been on good terms with them. He never tried to contact any of them on his return visits to Gallifrey, and neither he nor Susan showed any sign of missing their company.

Quite.

Of course, none of said relatives (or even Leela) turn up to greet him on his numerous trips home, but then Gallifrey is obviously sorely deprived of an Internet so they probably didn't know until long after he'd scarpered again.

Well, the Tardis library is even better.

We don't KNOW what the TARDIS library is like because we've never SEEN it because that ILLITERATE PHILISTINE the Doctor NEVER SPENDS ANY TIME IN IT.

And did he seem REMOTELY perturbed when his (alleged) library was DROWNED by his stupid swimming pool...?

No. He did not.

Anyway, the Doctor definitely knew the Master and the Rani before leaving Gallifrey, but how close was he to them?

Best friends with the Master, no doubt about it - hopefully not on more than vague-acquaintance terms with the Rani.

I've seen him read at least one, in the Fox telemovie. Anyone remembers the title? I do, I'm just curious to see if anyone else payed attention.

Time Machine. (I think - definitely that or War of the Worlds.) One book every four or five centuries DOESN'T COUNT. (ESPECIALLY as he can speed read 'em in three seconds flat - well, Eccy can, dunno if the rest of 'em share this particular skill.)

well, Eccy can, dunno if the rest of 'em share this particular skill.

The Fourth Doctor can in City of Death.

he had to take the only one who left her door invitingly open.

So the Tardis just happened to be looking for a thief at the exact same time as the Doctor decided to leave Gallifrey? Sounds suspiciously arranged.

On the other hand, the Doctor clearly didn't step in the Tardis for the first time, and instantly take off. He went back out to collect Susan and assorted weapons of mass destruction first, which may have taken a while.

This raises two more questions. What was Hartnell planning to do with the Hand of Omega, and how much did Susan know?



they probably didn't know until long after he'd scarpered again.

It'd be pretty difficult not to know when the Doctor was on Gallifrey; it's the only time anything happens there.

We don't KNOW what the TARDIS library is like

It's part of the Tardis. It's bound to be as marvellous as the rest of her, though perhaps in a quirky way.

hopefully not on more than vague-acquaintance terms with the Rani.

Certainly, the Rani wasn't fond enough of the Doctor to keep pestering him, the way the Master did, but that doesn't tell us how he felt about her.

IIRC 6 muses, "Perhaps if I'd been nicer to her? No!" So clearly there was no risk of her becoming Mrs. Who. ;-)

Based on their interaction in Mark Of The Rani I'd guess that while they knew each other they tended to move in different social/educational circles.

Anyway, the Doctor definitely knew the Master and the Rani before leaving Gallifrey, but how close was he to them?

Best friends with the Master, no doubt about it -

In The Five Doctors, when the Master, Tegan and Doctor 1 are at the entrance of the Dark Tower testing the checkered floor trap, there's this bit of dialogue:

DOCTOR 1: Diabolical ingenuity! Nothing happens until you reach the fifth row, half way, and then the entire board becomes a death trap.
MASTER: Our ancestors had such a wonderful sense of humour.
DOCTOR 1: Do I know you, young man?
MASTER: Believe it or not, we were at the Academy together.

So, the Doctor and the Master were school buddies.

So the Tardis just happened to be looking for a thief at the exact same time as the Doctor decided to leave Gallifrey? Sounds suspiciously arranged.

The TARDIS knew she was obsolete and about to be decommissioned. Here comes the Doctor looking for a ride. She saw an opportunity for escape and took it. Nothing arranged there.

We don't know how many months, or indeed centuries, of adventuring he and Susan might have done before bumping into those interfering schoolteachers...

I got the impression from Edge of Destruction that it hadn't been too long. Don't make me watch it to find out though.

That would be too cruel. The next sucker to endure the Longest Two Episodes In Recorded History must keep an eye open, though.

Ok, I bit the bullet and watched it. As far as I can tell, it contains no clues at all relating to how long Susan and the Doctor were travelling before meeting Ian and Barbara.

Please don't say I'm a sucker.

So the Tardis just happened to be looking for a thief at the exact same time as the Doctor decided to leave Gallifrey? Sounds suspiciously arranged.

It was DESTINY I tell you! They were MEANT to be together! It's the greatest love story of all time, give or take the hammer and the attempted drowning...

On the other hand, the Doctor clearly didn't step in the Tardis for the first time, and instantly take off. He went back out to collect Susan and assorted weapons of mass destruction first, which may have taken a while.

Oh, I wouldn't put it past Hartnell to decide to do a moonlight flit, gather up his cradle, Nemesis, Hand, granddaughter etc etc, and THEN hobble frantically around every unguarded TARDIS in sight, rattling the doors...

This raises two more questions. What was Hartnell planning to do with the Hand of Omega, and how much did Susan know?

I doubt Susan knew ANYTHING. She was, after all, a mere female, with whom the Doctor was unlikely to share his darkest secrets. Plus when arguing against scarpering from 60s London she raised pathetic 'Wanna go to school' objections rather than 'Leaving star-killers lying around' ones.

Interesting that the Time Lords didn't raise this issue at his trial, isn't it? They probably hadn't even NOTICED the Hand and Nemesis were gone.

It'd be pretty difficult not to know when the Doctor was on Gallifrey; it's the only time anything happens there.

True, but do those losers even have TELEPHONES? If you're living a few thousand miles away you probably wouldn't even notice the Capitol being shaken to its foundations.

It's part of the Tardis. It's bound to be as marvellous as the rest of her

Have you SEEN Invasion of Time?

I adore the TARDIS but her innards aren't always...pretty.

IIRC 6 muses, "Perhaps if I'd been nicer to her? No!" So clearly there was no risk of her becoming Mrs. Who. ;-)

Ooh yes, so he does!

No, wait, I think it was more along the lines of 'Perhaps if I was really nice to her...' He sounded unnervingly as if he was considering swapping sex for a TARDIS remote control...

So, the Doctor and the Master were school buddies.

I'm sure it went deeper than that. Even before New Who had them running across fields together and saying 'Are you asking me on a date?' Can anyone remember if the words 'best friends' were mentioned?

The TARDIS knew she was obsolete and about to be decommissioned.

And for 'decommissioned' read 'MURDERED'.

Ok, I bit the bullet and watched it. As far as I can tell, it contains no clues at all relating to how long Susan and the Doctor were travelling before meeting Ian and Barbara.

Please don't say I'm a sucker.

You're my hero!

So, the Doctor and the Master were school buddies.

I'm sure it went deeper than that.

It very likely did. Those two obviously were rebels from birth, total misfits in a fossilized society that tolerated no amount of independant thought. Both were inquisitive hellraisers who must have been ostracised by the "proper" students of the academy. Each must have been the only friend the other had. I don't know under what circumstances they became sworn ennemies, but before that happened they must have been the bests of friends.

I believe Pertwee mentioned the best friends bit, but I don't remember which episode(s). He also used the term best enemies, IIRC.

Oddly enough the Doctor/Master relationship reminds me of how the Superman/Lex Luthor relationship was handled in the 1960s. Childhood friends, one went bad, but the other never gave up hope that his old friend could be redeemed & rehabilitated.

In Destiny of the Doctors, they had the Ainley Master mention that the Doctor and he were once great friends

What Is "Destiny of the Doctors"??

If you're living a few thousand miles away you probably wouldn't even notice the Capitol being shaken to its foundations.

Practically all Time Lords live in the Capitol though, with only the handful of exceptions in Invasion of Time. Could the Doctor's missing family be amongst that lot?

Those two obviously were rebels from birth, total misfits in a fossilized society that tolerated no amount of independant thought. Both were inquisitive hellraisers who must have been ostracised by the "proper" students of the academy. Each must have been the only friend the other had.

Though to be fair, half Gallifrey went renegade at one time or other. Most of 'em nicking TARDISes in the process.

Wasn't the Doc good friends with Azmael before they left Gallifrey?

Oddly enough the Doctor/Master relationship reminds me of how the Superman/Lex Luthor relationship was handled in the 1960s. Childhood friends, one went bad, but the other never gave up hope that his old friend could be redeemed & rehabilitated.

I don't think the Doc believes for a moment that the Master can be redeemed and rehabilitated. Delgado declared his repentance in the most moving of tones in Sea Devils, and the Doc was too wary to even shake hands with him afterwards.

What Is "Destiny of the Doctors"??

Computer game from eons ago.

Practically all Time Lords live in the Capitol though, with only the handful of exceptions in Invasion of Time.

Is this ever actually stated? I know planets in the Whoniverse tend to have just one city (or two cities right next to each other), leaving the rest of the planet empty, but Lungbarrow has left the image of Great Houses spread across Gallifrey in my head - and in RTG's head too. The Master's dad had ESTATES, and no doubt a bloody big manor house/castle/whatever to go with them.

Though to be fair, half Gallifrey went renegade at one time or other. Most of 'em nicking TARDISes in the process.

Which just goes to show how suffocating life on Gallifrey must have been.

Or that making kids stare into the Untempered Schism REALLY REALLY REALLY makes 'em want to run away...

re: pre-Unearthly Child travels:
We don't know how many months, or indeed centuries, of adventuring he and Susan might have done before bumping into those interfering schoolteachers...

The Sensorites episode 3 has the Doctor saying this line: 'In all the years my granddaughter and I have been travelling, we have never had an argument.'

Ooh!

Years, eh? Interesting. If not enormously conclusive.

Plus, I don't believe a word of it. NOT ONE ARGUMENT? What kind of unnatural freaks ARE they?

Non-truth telling ones maybe--they couldn't get through part one of "An Unearthly Child" without fighting.

Yeah, well some families are like that. They yell & scream at each other, but when you ask them what they are arguing about, they look at you like you're crazy & say, "We weren't arguing, we were just having a discussion!"

While I don't think the amount of time traveling was mentioned, Edge Of Destruction does reveal some of the places the Doctor & Susan visited before they got to Earth.

By the end of The Sensorites, Susan says it's been 'ages' since they'd been home, and then goes on to talk about the orange skies and silver leaves.

There are no fewer than three references to pre-Ian-and-Barbara adventures here.

Have to say, I kind of enjoyed the story this time around. Bear in mind that I'd only seen it once and that was 1985 or 86 (recorded it in the movie format it was broadcast in but the tape was messed up). I was very disaapointed with it at that time, distracted by pot-bellied aliens, humans who weren't remotely surprised that the Doctor and company arrived within their ship nor by the fact that they were from a different time, and by the Doctor's 'we humans' comment.

So having had a quarter of a century to get use to those things, the rest of the story was actually pretty enjoyable.

Yeah, well some families are like that. They yell & scream at each other, but when you ask them what they are arguing about, they look at you like you're crazy & say, "We weren't arguing, we were just having a discussion!"

Ah yes, Hartnell's big on denial ('I was just going to get the caveman to draw me a map', yeah, right). He'd probably claim that giving Susan a jolly good smacked bottom counts as a constructive discussion.

Edge Of Destruction does reveal some of the places the Doctor & Susan visited before they got to Earth.

As does An Unearthly Child - 'That's wrong' about the French Revolution book. (Not that I remember Susan or the Doc saying 'Been there, done this' in Reign of Terror...)

And if the Doctor's accusing human influence of setting Susan against him, why didn't it happen long before Unearthly Child, given that the TARDIS's Earth-obsession pre-dates the series itself?

So having had a quarter of a century to get use to those things, the rest of the story was actually pretty enjoyable.

I'll bear that in mind when I come to rewatch Sensorites myself. I.e. when I'm REALLY scraping the bottom of the barrel.

As does An Unearthly Child - 'That's wrong' about the French Revolution book. (Not that I remember Susan or the Doc saying 'Been there, done this' in Reign of Terror...)

Susan does state that the Reign of Terror is The Doctor's "favourite period in the history of Earth". This is before The Doctor almost gets roasted in a fire and before his companions get sentenced to the guillotine.

Well, everyone has their own definition of fun...;)

Blimey. Looks like we got let off easy with would-be caveman-murdering Hartnell. According to DWM, the BBC's notes on the Doctor originally mentioned 'his hatred of scientists, inventors, improvers', his 'look of utter malevolence' AND him being 'somewhat pathetic'.

That was C.E. Webber's idea, but Sydney Newman wasn't keen.

WHAT is this C. E. Webber creature and WHY was it allowed within a million miles of MY WHO?

C.E. Webber was a BBC staff writer who was employed to hammer the basic ideas for Doctor Who into a proper proposal. He was also supposed to write the first story, 'The Giants', but it was dropped because it was too technically complex for the studios that Doctor Who was allocated at Lime Grove.

Basically Webber was, like Anthony Coburn and Rex Tucker, one of the BBC old guard that Sydney Newman didn't get on with and Newman seems to have spent his whole time stamping on Webber's ideas and writing "nuts" in the margins of his notes.

...and Newman seems to have spent his whole time stamping on Webber's ideas and writing "nuts" in the margins of his notes.

And we canadians are supposed to be such a polite and diplomatic lot.

It's a shame Lime Grove Studios was closed and demolished. Very short-sighted of the BBC.

I thought it was a small, not very well equipped studio that made filming difficult?

I believe it was the specific studio that Doctor Who was initially assigned that caused the technical problems, rather than Lime Grove as a whole.

The same studio at Lime Grove that housed Doctor Who - Studio D - was also the same studio that the last live programme from Lime Grove was broadcast in 1991 just before the BBC closed Lime Grove Studios for good.

Derek Martinus in DWM:

'[Hartnell] always claimed that he had carte blanche on the series, with the storylines and the casting, and if he didn't want to go on, the whole thing would fold up. "I am Doctor Who and Doctor Who is me," he would say. It was a very bitter blow when he found out he was being replaced. It was a brave move by the producer, Innes Lloyd. Innes was a very charming and easy-going man, but Bill dug his own grave by being difficult with him. It was a great indignity and very humbling for the old boy, but a great relief to everyone else that a man of Pat Troughton's calibre was taking over.'

Ouch.

TARDIS Eruditorum:

'Somewhere between 1966 and the present day, William Hartnell went out of vogue in a big way. Actually, in some ways it's tough to say he was ever in vogue. Let's face it, those who claim him as their favorite Doctor generally fall into two categories – cranky old men who have keyed on to the fact that they can win any "how stodgily misanthropic a fan can I be" contest by asserting that the show isn't as good as it was when William Hartnell was in it...or younger fans who want to have "distinctive" views within fandom...

'But look, nobody actually like Colin Baker's era either except for one or two actively insane people, and yet everyone falls over themselves in praise of Baker himself.'

William Hartnell went out of vague in a big way.

*snicker*

Mistake now corrected.

Should Richard Hurndall be discussed here?

That's a VERY interesting philosophical question. Is he technically speaking an 'Other' Doctor, or is he technically speaking Hartnell...? I mean, he looks more like him than Terry Walsh did in that wig in Monster of Peladon, for starters...

Random thought. Hurndall is not Hartnell. In The Five Doctors, it is never actually stated that Hurndall Doctor is the same incarnation as Hartnell Doctor. Since Hurndall Doctor DOES declares himself to be the ORIGINAL Doctor, maybe Hurndall Doctor is an incarnation that PRECEDED Hartnell Doctor, the mythical Doctor zero.

Ok, that's not really a serious suggestion. It is obvious that both Hartnell and Hurndall played Doctor's first incarnation. Like I said, just a random thought.

Well look at it this way. Since this board started in 1998, we never had a *need* to talk about Hurndall other than in the context of the Five Doctors. It's hard to imageine a need actually arising in the future...

Like I said, just a random thought.

Stop having random thoughts!

They're REALLY CONFUSING!

Well look at it this way. Since this board started in 1998, we never had a *need* to talk about Hurndall other than in the context of the Five Doctors. It's hard to imageine a need actually arising in the future...

Can't you just picture a mischievous Moffat saving himself a few recolourising quid and using Hurndall instead of Hartnell in his next flashback...?

No, what we need is Hartnell vs. Hurndall, a mud wrestling matching to decide who's the REAL First Doctor.

"Your grass is ass, my boy"

Reign of Terror:

'You know my plans always work perfectly' - bless!

'If you think I'm going to betray [Jules] you're a very poor judge of character' - fascinating how much Hartnell has changed in just one season. He'd gladly have exchanged Jules's life or anyone else's for Susan's release in a heartbeat a few weeks ago.

So I guess when Susan said the Reign of Terror was his favourite period of Earth history, she meant the OLD Doctor and he's now gone off all those lovely executions.

'The events will happen just as they're written, I'm afraid so, and we can't stem the tide. But at least we can stop being carried away with the flood' - a nicely poetic way of saying that even New Improved Hartnell is STILL quite keen to save his own skin. (Anyway, what's WRITTEN about the French Revolution is inaccurate - Susan said so in Unearthly Child.)

Should Richard Hurndall be discussed here?

The fact this section is now 'First Doctor (Hartnell)' rather than, as hitherto, 'William Hartnell' does have an impact on this question...

Is much actually known about Hurndall's life? He seems even more of an enigma than Hartnell does.

Hurndall died less than half a year after TFD - before he had the chance to go on the convention circut, do DWM interviews or any other means of defending himself.

it is not his fault that Hartnell was dead.

Planet of Giants:

Why is the Doctor wearing a cloak in the TARDIS?

Interesting - the Doctor is much worse affected than the others by the shrinking. Which is as it should be. A Time Lord isn't much use if he can't sense such disturbances in space/time.

'I always forget the niceties under pressure' - the Doctor. Yeah, but at least now you're just snapping at your Companions and not, say, trying to smash anyone's head in with a rock...

And that's a very sweet apology to Barbara for being rude. Boy has SHE got him house-trained pretty fast...

Why does the Doctor split the team up at once - and why does he choose Barbara as his companion?

'Death, you see, has its own posture and appearance' - for some reason I'm really struck by this CIVILISED reaction to death. As opposed to Colin Baker's gloating over soft flesh peeling from white bones.

'First things first, we must find Chesterton' - my, how times have changed. The Doctor never even THINKS of abandoning the irritating schoolteacher and scarpering back to the TARDIS with Susan.

Why is the Doctor the one doing the climbing? Is the ancient geezer so much fitter than 'the girls' owing to the fact he's (presumably) male?

'Insane or a criminal mind' - the Doctor on whoever shot Farrow. When did he become a pacifist? Perhaps there was a PERFECTLY GOOD REASON for putting a bullet through Farrow's heart.

'You must think of the other two!' THE FIRST DOCTOR urges a reluctant Susan. I've said it before and no doubt I'll say it again...MY how times have changed...

'We've done it! We've done it!' - actually it was the Doctor who single-handeded did it...yet he's so delightfully keen to spread the credit.

Blimey, Hartnell has grubby fingers.

'Not at all my dear boy, always at your service' bows the Doctor. Those Strays/Pets/Stupid Apes took a cantankerous homicidal kidnapping alien smoker and they turned him into a decent, heroic humanoid in less than a year. Coal Hill sure knows how to pick 'em. It's such an amusing reversal from New Who's Doctor-makes-everyone-he-meets-better...

Emily - Why is the Doctor wearing a cloak in the TARDIS?
Doesn't this continue on from The Sensorites where he got the cloak?

Perhaps there was a PERFECTLY GOOD REASON for putting a bullet through Farrow's heart.
Now if there had been a perfectly good reason for killing Farrow they would have used a rock to the head. ;-)

Doesn't this continue on from The Sensorites where he got the cloak?

Nope, it seems to follow straight after the Reign of Terror. Despite the season break...

Now if there had been a perfectly good reason for killing Farrow they would have used a rock to the head. ;-)

Poor dear Hartnell - ONE moment of homicidal mania and we never let the poor guy forget it. But hey, who HASN'T had an off-day? Who HASN'T thought that their life was worth CONSIDERABLY more than that of some violent savage? Who HASN'T attempted to smash a wounded guy's head in with a rock -

- oh. Just Hartnell, then.

Maureen O'Brien on Hartnell: 'It was my job to laugh Bill out of his five or six tempers a day...He was a very charming creature in spite of his irascibility and those terrible teeth that he used to bare when he was angry. He said to me, "When I was sent the script for Doctor Who, I decided this was my chance. I was going to make this mine, and I do make it mine. I make this show mine"...It was his reward after a lifetime of slogging away' - how ironic. Hartnell made the Doctor immortal. But he didn't make the Doctor HIS.

Hurndall was the Doctor that John Wiles and Donald Tosh should have worked with instead of the cantankerous Hartnell. Hurndall was hilarious in Steptoe and Son as a predatory gay businessman.

If healthy Hurndall had played the Doctor instead of sickly Hartnell, there would never have been a need to invent regeneration so he could be replaced by Troughton, the show would not have been able to renew itself every so often the way it did, and Doctor Who would not have remained on air as long as it did.

Director Frank Cox re Hartnell: 'He had a memory problem and...didn't like learning lines, but what he did like was wearing the costume, striking the grand pose, saying "I am the Doctor" and leaving Russ and Jackie to carry the plot...most of the time in rehearsals was spent very tactfully off-loading his great chunky speeches onto either Russ or Jackie, who were aware of the situation and who, with the utmost tact, would say, "Well, Bill, we could take that."' - hmm. I don't remember Ian or Barbara suddenly becoming, say, nuclear experts, a la Ben in Moonbase...?

I quite liked his selfish personality in the early episodes. It fits exactly - a misfit from his own world, largely a loner except for a child he can boss around, a wanderer used to pleasing himself and looking after number one..

Obviously they couldn't continue it and had to make him irascible but essentially benign...but he doesn't start out as a hero. By no means!

I had to smile - in that old Dr Who game, he was the only one the Master respected. The others were derided as the clown, the dandy, "the nice one"...but the First Doctor..."ah, such intellect..."

I quite liked his selfish personality in the early episodes.

Though there's an unsubtle distinction between 'selfish' and 'HOMICIDAL'.

in that old Dr Who game, he was the only one the Master respected. The others were derided as the clown, the dandy, "the nice one"...but the First Doctor..."ah, such intellect..."

WHAT old Dr Who game! And why should THE MASTER respect the intellect of someone who only scraped through his exams with 51% on the second attempt...

It was Destiny of the Doctors from 1997.

And why should THE MASTER respect the intellect of someone who only scraped through his exams with 51% on the second attempt...
And wanted to drive a choo-choo train.

But to answer your question: maybe his intellect was so vast that it couldn't be filtered into a standardized test. That test was written by an establishment that he didn't fit into and eventually left. Fifty-one percent could indicate strong mastery of some fields and total hopelessness in others.

One thing I always wondered, though, is what kind of culture sets 50/50 as the benchmark for passing?

And wanted to drive a choo-choo train

(GALLIFREYAN NURSE): Look, Theta Sigma! It's a picture of a choo-choo!

(DOCTOR): (gurgles and coos like the nappy wearing infant he is)

It was Destiny of the Doctors from 1997.

Ah! You obviously got a lot further with that thing than I ever managed.

And wanted to drive a choo-choo train.

*Winces* I TRY to forget that comment, I try SO SO HARD.

maybe his intellect was so vast that it couldn't be filtered into a standardized test.

Possibly - the Omega audio claims that HE got his nickname by acquiring the lowest-ever, totally unprecedented grade 'Omega' cos he wrote a paper on time-travel that was just beyond his tutors' comprehension.

Though the NAs claim the Doctor did it deliberately, to prove some kind of point. (Damned if I can remember WHAT point, though.)

That test was written by an establishment that he didn't fit into and eventually left. Fifty-one percent could indicate strong mastery of some fields and total hopelessness in others.

There's a LOVELY school report for him in The Doctor: His Lives and Times - e.g.:

'Cybernetics: 17%: It is almost a century since he was first instructed that when replacing a robot brain always make sure the arrow "A" is pointing to the front. A simple concept he still has yet to grasp.

Art and Architecture: 11%: Exhibits a perverse preference for primitive creative methods. He must remember that computers can draw.'

Etc...

One thing I always wondered, though, is what kind of culture sets 50/50 as the benchmark for passing?

Yeah, you would HOPE the Lords of Time would have SLIGHTLY higher standards.

the script/storyline for Destiny of the Doctors was co-written by Terrance Dicks and Gary Russell.

Everyone talks about Colin Baker's sacking but Hartnell was effectively sacked from Doctor Who as well...

VERY VERY true. (My mother was CRYING over that in An Adventure in Space and Time. And my mother doesn't even LIKE Who.)

And then there's Pertwee and Tom, who were obviously not EXPECTING their bluffs to be called in this manner, and McCoy and McGann, neither of whom had the slightest choice about leaving...

Space Helmet for a Cow: 'If there's one thing William Hartnell wasn't cut out for, it was playing spunky juvenile versions of himself.' - you know, that's a VERY GOOD POINT. No one really thought the whole 'Son of Doctor Who' thing through, did they. (Or if they did they came to the conclusion - several years early - that Our Hero was in fact hundreds of years old so could have VERY similar-looking offspring...)

Hartnell's wife Heather: 'I was delighted, because it got him away from his sergeants and that sort of thing. When you are playing the same part day in, day out, it begins to rub off. When he was playing Doctor Who, he was delightful to live with' – what, he didn't once try to stave her skull in with a rock or anything...?

Oh, and when he was in Three Docs, 'He glowed again, as if it had taken ten years off his illness' - so glad That Pile Of Rubbish was good for SOMETHING.

Poor Hartnell. HE never betrayed n'abandoned us, did he. (Well, him and sacked Colin and sacked Sylvester and sacked McGann, anyway.)

No one really thought the whole 'Son of Doctor Who' thing through, did they?

Actually they did. That's why they didn't make it.

And at least it seems to have got no further than an idea. Pertwee and Pa Clanton wrote whole scripts!

Innes Lloyd in DWM: Hartnell 'actually came into my office for a quiet word, and said, "Look, I think it's about time that you considered getting a new Doctor Who, and I think I'd like to bow out at that stage"' - but that contradicts An Adventure in Space and Time! And quite a few other things I could mention.

I imagine Jonathan Blum still believes Lloyd.

Unlike certain other Doctors (mentioning no scarfs, no jelly babies), Hartnell's ad-libs are funny.

Oh yeah? What's Hartnell ever said in his life that's as funny as 'Never trust a man with dirty fingernails'?

A space helmet for a cow, though I doubt that was an ad lib.

'Bill seemed quite happy and confident that other work would flood in. I remember him mentioning a good offer he had had from Australia' - Peter Hawkins (Cyberman voice in Tenth Planet). *Glances at Hartnell Puss in Boots interview. Sobs quietly to self*

Hartnell had a range that few people acknowledge (few fans, anyway - people who've seen a lot of Hartnell's heavy/comedy career know there's a lot more to his performance as the Doctor than a simple crotchety/senile dodderer).

And how much of his stuff have YOU seen?

Doctor Who and Carry on Sergeant but that's all that's easily accessible.

Seems odd that you would critique other people as being narrowminded when you yourself have not seen much. For the record, I've gone one better than you- I've also seen "This Sporting Life" which was the film Hartnell was seen in which got him his role on Who.

I recommend Brighton Rock. And to be clear: I've not seen him in anything else.

So, not including stunt doubles, how many people have played the first Doctor, within established, on-screen continuity? I'm thinking four.

Hartnell, of course.
Richard Hurndall
David Bradley
Whoever played the barn kid who kept crying, perhaps because his parents wouldn't let him drive a steam engine.

Am I forgetting anyone? The android double in Chase wouldn't count, although those sequences are so poorly edited I couldn't be surprised if the other actor was playing the actual Doctor at some point.

Whoever played the barn kid who kept crying, perhaps because his parents wouldn't let him drive a steam engine.



I keep forgetting That Kid. I spent ages wracking my brain between 'I'm thinking four' and reading your list, and it's like my brain automatically resets itself to forget Kiddie-First-Doc whenever I'm not looking...

Everything you need to know about the First Doctor:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05rtf67

Presented for Day 23 of the Advent Calendar on the BBC Doctor Who website.

Perhaps worth noting that John Guilor did voice over work for the First Doctor in Day of the Doctor.

Twice Upon a Time:

'Have you come to take the Ship back' - ADORABLE! The First Doctor thought that if the Time Lords came after him they'd only confiscate Sexy, they wouldn't, say, EXECUTE AND EXILE him or anything...

'I have the courage and the right to live and die as myself' - who d'you think you're fooling, MISERABLE COWARD!

Blimey, since when has One known a THING about Level Five Civilisations?

'Atmospheric? This is the flight deck of the most powerful space-time machine in the known universe, not a restaurant for the French' - how sweet, did ALL THOSE OTHER TARDISES somehow slip One's mind...? (Was him-inventing-the-Ship-and-Susan-naming-it some sort of Time-Lord-escaping lie they brainwashed themselves into believing...?)

'For you are the Doctor of War.' 'The Doctor, yes. But the Doctor of War? Never, ma'am, never.' - Well, SOMEONE seems to have accidentally forgotten a certain incident with a rock and a caveman, not to mention that time he turned a pacifist race into a bunch of intergalactic warmongers in five seconds flat...

Charming, the way he takes off without a second thought, abandoning Ben and Polly in this snowy wasteland FOREVER (as far as he knows cos he has zero faith in his/his other self's ability to get back to 'em).

'These creatures, what are they?' - surely he remembers the look of a Dalek from the time he and Ian whipped one out of its Mark Three Travel Machine in The Daleks?

DOCTOR ONE: What's the matter?
DOCTOR TWELVE: I died a few hours ago, then I refused to regenerate. It catches up with you. You know, it's like a big lunch.
DOCTOR ONE: I did exactly the same.
DOCTOR TWELVE: I know you did. - What, sorry, WHAT! Hartnell (Bradley. Whatever.) went and DIED on us during Tenth Planet before popping back to refuse to regenerate? Well, as excuses go for missing Episode Three I guess it beats 'fainted and lay around a bit'. (And I bloody KNEW Polly and Ben and the alleged-but-never-seen Base doctor were grossly neglecting him!)

'What keeps the balance between good and evil in this appalling universe? Is there some kind of logic? Some mysterious force?' - Well, SOMEONE obviously hasn't noticed the existence of the Black and White Guardians, so when exactly does the penny drop?

CAPTAIN: My family. Perhaps you could look in on them, from time to time?
DOCTOR One: We should be delighted...I shall make it my business - You SHALL? Once you've LEARNT HOW TO STEER SEXY in a few centuries' time, you mean?

Since William Hartnell, Richard Hurndall, and David Bradley all played the same character, maybe they could make an episode called
'The Three First Doctors".

Well, as long as the Cushing Abomination and the Doctor's robot double from The Chase didn't gatecrash the party...

Or the whimpering kid.

Don't be mean to Cushing!

Or the whimpering kid.

There is simply no way I'll ever remember that the Whimpering Kid is supposed to be the First Doctor cos there's simply no way my brain can cope with such 'information' in the first place.

'Hartnell was 58 when he recorded that scene on 24 September 1966...David [Bradley], 75, is recording the same scene' - blimey, that REALLY brings it home how prematurely-aged Hartnell was...was it EVERYONE in those days or just him?

Anneke Wills: 'It was quite spooky having lunch with him because I found myself relating to him as I had to Bill. I was nursing David as a sort of difficult old man. "Would you like some water, darling? You sit. I'll go and get you some." He said, "Anneke! You don't need to look after me!" I said, "Oh my God, that's what I did with Bill. I'm so sorry." I'd completely forgotten' - BLESS!

'Hartnell was 58 when he recorded that scene on 24 September 1966...David [Bradley], 75, is recording the same scene' - blimey, that REALLY brings it home how prematurely-aged Hartnell was...was it EVERYONE in those days or just him?

If Hartnell smoked and Bradley didn't, that would easily explain it. Plus, that white hair wig would age anyone.

Speaking of which, why the hell couldn't Twice manage to give Bradley white hair, I mean how hard IS it to get such details right...

the real Hartnell was blonde in his youth.

I did wonder if growing up before the days of the welfare state had anything to do with it.

My Dad reckoned the average 80 year old these days are as healthy as the average 60 year old before the NHS was formed.

Poor Hartnell. HE never betrayed n'abandoned us, did he.

No doubt, had his health not started to fail, he would have stayed on Who longer then he ultimately did.

Anyone who makes fun of Hartnell's memory lapses should be forced to experience what i did a few minutes ago. Putting my elderly mother to bed, she insisted she couldn't get to sleep until she had a piece of cardboard with the letter "J" written on it that she could point at the mantelpiece. Years of her smoking has led to hardened arteries and weak blood flow to the brain.

•••• Judi, I'm so sorry.

Also scared.

My mother's nowhere near this stage but she's seventy-nine and I've accidentally volunteered to be her carer when the time comes. (This is what happens when you decide to devote your life to Who and to hell with one of these 'career' things, dammit!)

Maybe it's some comfort to know WHY your mum's like this? She choose to take the risk of smoking because it gave her great pleasure and she's paying the price. It's the family friend who got Alzheimer's in her sixties for no bloody reason who's driving me mad.

thank you Em. comedy writers who use dementia as a punchline should talk to the carers.

William Hartnell honoured by DWAS with a blue plaque:
http://www.doctorwhonews.net/2018/10/dwas-honours-william-hartnell.html

Ahh, that's very sweet...Though they accidentally seem to have put 'Television & Radio Actor' instead of THE DOCTOR!! And they less-than-accidentally seem to have forgotten to invite Earl Cameron along for the event...

there's a charming story on pp.153-4 of Jessica Carney's "Who's There? The Life and Career of William Hartnell":

One evening Terry was driving Bill home to Mayfield from a pub in the Blackboys, rather the worse for wear, when he spied a road block ahead and began to slow down. Bill asked, 'Why are you slowing up?' 'The Police', said Terry. '**** the police', said Bill. They were duly flagged down, Bill insisting, 'Leave this to me.' Dressed in well-tailored trousers and shirt, he swept out of the car as if he was wearing his Doctor Who cloak and wig, shouting, 'Don't you know who I am? I'm Doctor Who, Doctor BLOODY WHO! Now get all this rubbish out of the way, my friend. I need to get home and we are very busy people!' No doubt now they would both be arrested, but somehow they managed to get away with it then--either the police were so bemused by this crazed actor behaving as if he were in full costume that they just laughed, or they were looking for stolen cars rather than lunatic drunken drivers.

Such is the authority in the Doctor's voice.

Yup, the Sixth Doctor definitely stuck by his word re vegetarianism (except in the Eight Doctors, for some reason), and the Seventh and Eighth Doctors continued as veggies. The Doctors have come a long way since Troughton and his fur coat.

SO far, in fact, that Five is retroactively claiming Two's coat is FAKE-fur (No Place Like Home)...

https://gaia-mix-nicolosi.tumblr.com/post/673448212344012800/thete-back-when-the-first-doctor-was-young

Have some Thetas.

https://preview.redd.it/hsnfrjmu8te81.png?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=2b9369be82b51844cc98e20441c7d969694afdc9

I imagined what if Millennia had joined in Celestial Toymaker.

Odd.

Yeah

I don't think 'Who was ready for Millennia as a Companion at the time.

But I think that if it were, Millennia and Steven could've stayed on for all of Season 3, maybe see the Doctor regenerate for the first time (or maybe the Doctor would have been turned young again in the Celestial Toymaker's realm instead!) and be the "main companions" for said 2nd Doctor.

According to Vortex, there is a new First Doctor for Big Finish but it is in addition to David Bradley playing him.

Oh. Dear. God.

I can accept Bradley in the role (he is, at least, canonical), but I could get behind one who sounds more like The Originator.

Hopefully it's that guy they found for The Planet of Giants SE.

Maybe there will be an Young First Doctor boxset?

I've seen a woman making a good young\child First Doctor voice a while ago.

Well, since William Hartnell has been dead for nearly fifty years now, David Bradley is the next best thing.

Big Finish's new First Doctor is Stephen Noonan and I noticed a trailer of him as the First Doctor has been posted elsewhere.

Big Finish's new First Doctor Stephen Noonan and Big Finish's Dodo, Lauren Cornelius:
https://imgur.com/a/cL1QFVE

Stephen Noonan, Big Finish's new First Doctor:
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1143510/

Will Peter Purves be alongside them as Steven or will he be recast?

Or maybe, they could use a male teenage companion alongside the Doctor and Dodo? Maybe a medieval guy or an apprentice samurai?

Will Peter Purves be alongside them as Steven or will he be recast?

BF recast Susan and Ian while the actors are still alive, but they just did it to have a complete set of An Adventure in Time and Space actors for their First Doctor box sets, the real Ian n'Susan still appear in different ranges. So I doubt that would be done for Steven, especially as - unlike practically all the others - he still sounds EXACTLY like he did on-screen.

Or maybe, they could use a male teenage companion alongside the Doctor and Dodo? Maybe a medieval guy or an apprentice samurai?

There's absolutely no room in the Hartnell stories, which slide into each other, to shoehorn in another Companion but of course that's absolutely no guarantee that BF won't do it...

Yup, "The First Doctor Adventures" uses the "An Adventure in Time and Space" actors, while "The Early Adventures" has Ian and Susan played by their original actors, the Doctor also played by William Russell because after all Ian and the Doctor's voices already kind of sounded the same, and Barbara still played by Jemma Powell like in tFDA.

Usually with age, women's voices go deeper and men's go higher, this happens because of lack of flexibility because of vocal training. Hence, having been a Blue Peter presenter, you can see why Peter Purves' voice changed the least.

You can pretend it's between Savages and War Machines.

I s'pose that's theoretically possible...it would make Dodo commenting on how 'Steven would have liked it here' rather odd if she'd just spent months with another guy but hey, that would be as nothing compared to Peri becoming the Scourge of Sylvana in between Planet of Fire and Caves of Androzani...

Maybe Steven returned after the other guy left, or maybe she’s talking about a completely different Steven/Stephen. Or maybe it will get retconned out and she now includes the name of the new guy too.

Heck maybe Steven was two completely different Steven/Stephens, one from 24th and other from 28th century.

Heck maybe Steven was two completely different Steven/Stephens, one from 24th and other from 28th century.

That's definitely ONE way to solve the problem...the way one of the novels had the Doctor casually announce 'I've been to all three Atlantises'...and, after all, Steven MAY qualify for some spatial genetic multiplicity, given the existence of Morton Dill...

He timetravelled back in time and changed not only Atlantis' history and destruction, but in changing it, he also changed Steven's home century and spelling of his name.

And if he continues to time travel as such, Steven will be from Atlantis before I'm finished typing this.

https://www.ncls.it/g/archives/7528

I finally made the belated crossover fic.

And no, Steven is'nt here, but that's suppose to be him in the heart-and-angly-strype sweater in the pic.

https://www.mycast.io/stories/doctor-who-academy-era

I recasted the Academy Era.

https://www.mycast.io/stories/first-doctor-era-remade

And now I recast his actual era too.

https://twitter.com/dyonisia7/status/1562210270860247040

Theta's leaving Gallifrey!

Happy 59th Anniversary to the REAL First Doctor!