Moderator's Note: This is Mike's original Victoria summary:

Another companion whose performances were almost completely deleted by the BBC. I saw "Tomb of the Cybermen," but Victoria didn't make much of an impression on me. I don't think she got a chance to exercise those famous leather lungs in that story.



She doesn't scream in "Downtime" either, though she is older and wiser. Older, anyway; this was a Who tie-in the actors should have torn up.

Agreed. Victoria never struck me as the sort of person who'd end up running a university. Come to think of it, are there any Who tie-ins that shouldn't have been torn up?

How about the segment on some program in which a kid said he wanted to be in a Doctor Who episode, resulting in a vignette with Colin Baker, Janet Fielding, and a pair of Sontarans who got melted with acid?

Wait, never mind, that one should have been torn up too. That one would have had Victoria screaming for different reasons.

Should we say anything about her performance in Dimensions in Time?

No.

I guess I asked for that response.

Anyone have any idea how old Victoria was suppose to be when she joined the Doctor? I would guesstimate as young as 15.

I always got the impression she was supposed to be about 18 but just looked young.

The Timeline says she was born in 1849, so she was 17 during "The Evil of the Daleks."

So was therefore the only definate teenager Companion that actually was played by a teenager (though cutting it a bit close).

Aren't you a teenager from 13 through 19? Weren't Adric and Nyssa played by teenage actors, around 18 or 19?

IIRC, Mathew Waterhouse was 20 when he started on Doctor Who. As for Nyssa, was she specifically suppose to be a teenager (I haven't seen any with her)? I was thinking about Susan and Ace being played by Carol Ann Ford and Sophie Aldred, who, when taking the role, were 23 and 25 respectively.

Well, when Nyssa said that she was a woman, Adric said that she was only a girl (Four to Doomsday). So I assume she was supposed to be a teenager, since an adolescent like Adric would presumably regard someone of 20 or above as adult.

how old was maureen o'brien when she played Vicki then?

Haven't the foggiest.

Anyway, about Victoria...I was shocked to find that she had a bit of personality in Evil of the Daleks. There's that very sweet moment when she says to Kemel 'Don't be afraid, I will protect you' despite the fact that he goes round bending metal bars in his spare time. And once someone sneaks up behind her and pinches her to make her scream, she realises straightaway that it was deliberately done to lure the Doctor and Jamie into a trap, and that 'If only I'd thought before I screamed...' Those aspects of her character COULD have developed as the programme went on, but no, they just decided to develop her lung capacity instead.

I can't resist; here's a list of ages of the "young" companions, when they first joined the show:

Carole Ann Ford--23
Maureen O'Brien--19
Peter Purves--26
Jackie Lane--18
Anneke Wills--25
Michael Craze--24
Frazer Hines--22
Deborah Watling--19
Wendy Padbury--20
Katy Manning--22
Matthew Waterhouse--20
Sarah Sutton--20
Janet Fielding--24
Mark Strickson--22
Nicola Bryant--22
Sophia Aldred--25

Sarah Sutton was 19 not 20 - she's a December baby
(she's also the youngest female actor to play a Companion)

So was Mike wrong about Jackie Lane being 18, then?

Oh yep - Jackie Lane was born in 1941 - as she states in her "Mythmakers" interview - she also did a lot of theatre work in the early 60s which would have been impossible with a 1947 birthday

Huh. You'll note Sarah didn't mention Victoria in her list of former Companions. Well, I guess 'facilitated a Yeti invasion' would have seemed less inspiring than the orphanage stuff, somehow. Not that RTG would have hesitated to stamp all over Downtime, given what He did to all the other spin-off media...

I wonder what God feels about Victoria abandoning him for atheism during her time in the TARDIS?

It is pretty surprising that someone from her time and background doesn't have strong religious - probably Anglican - beliefs.

Mind you its also pretty surprising that she was so willing to give up her Victorian gown and petticoats, given her era's views about female clothing and morality.

Oooh! Good for Victoria! When does she say she's an atheist??

Of course, her father IS a scientist and therefore had a better chance than most Victorians of being vaguely rational. (Though as he built a time-machine out of mirrors...possibly not.) And her no-doubt-god-bothering mother was dead, so couldn't ruthlessly indoctrinate her with that nonsense when she was too young to know better.

Yeah, I always thought she gave in surprisingly easily on the clothes. Those dresses must have been making her REALLY UNCOMFORTABLE all these years...

I don't know what it was like in 1866 (Victoria's home era) but i just found this quote - "By the end of the 19th century a fashionable woman was carrying thirty-seven pounds of clothing, although the Rational Dress Society had long campaigned for women to reduce their underclothing to a maximum of seven pounds. For comparison, the average modern woman's clothes weigh less than two pounds"

Extrapolating, women's clothes should go down to a weight of zero pounds around the year 2018


Mmmmm, I think I just landed myself in a heap of trouble with that one.

Weren't whalebone corsets banned after one snapped and pierced a girl's liver?

That may have happened, but whalebone corsets were never banned. Fashion changed, far more comfortable styles of garments were invented and the corset thankfully disappered from everyday life.

a fashionable woman was carrying thirty-seven pounds of clothing

Jeez. I knew women were oppressed, of course, but I didn't realise they were THAT oppressed...Victoria is suddenly making a lot more sense. I always wondered why the most utterly unsuited-for-TARDIS-travel Companion stuck it out for so long, but even being chased shrieking down corridors from slavering monsters must have felt LIBERATING without that two-and-a-half extra stone...

Ice Warriors:

'It might be dangerous, let's leave it' - has she not learnt the futility of saying THAT sort of thing to THE DOCTOR?

'Oh no, not Africa!' - what's Victoria got against Africa? As a good Victorian she'll regard it as a continent of savages, of course, but as a good Victorian she should welcome nothing more than the chance to put on a pith helmet and go tame the savage beast.

Victoria collapses in a dead faint on seeing an Ice Warrior. How has she SURVIVED so long? And why now instead of with Yetis or Cybermen or Daleks?

How dare the Doctor tell Victoria to get back to the TARDIS and lock the doors - in the middle of an adventure? If he's so keen to keep the Inferior Sex out of adventuring, why does he ever let her out of the TARDIS in the first place?

'She has courage but she is also very stupid' - the Ice Warrior verdict on Our Heroine. They're WAY too flattering. Courage? WHAT courage?

'Suppose I don't tell you' 'Then the girl will die' 'Doctor don't tell them' - well. It seems THE GIRL has courage after all.

Deborah Watling was 'by far the best known actress to be cast as a companion to date' - TARDIS Eruditorum. SERIOUSLY?

It's the TARDIS Eruditorum, so probably not.

Poor old Harrises. They issue a vague, polite and conventional 'Do drop in anytime you're passing' invitation to the TARDIS crew and they're promptly stuck with Victoria for LIFE. Doctor Who: A Celebration (and it's odd the way its much-read-as-a-child words of wisdom stick in one's mind more than actual REALITY) said she was ADOPTED by them, but she's nothing of the sort.

How is Victoria going to get along in the 1960s (or whenever Fury is set)? I can hardly see her taking to her new life in ten seconds flat like that young refugee in Torchwood: Out of Time. Let alone ending up running a university (thanks for THAT, stupid Downtime video).

Would Victoria's parents really have named her after the Queen?

Wasn't um royalty viewed with more respect back then?

Where did is say she was named after the Queen?

Besides, is naming a child after a Monarch considered disrespectful?

I named my cat Tatiana, after the second daughter of Nicholas II. Does that make me disrespectful? Rubbish. I did it in honour of Tatiana.

Perhaps Victoria's parents felt the same way.

There wasn't that much more reverence for royalty back then. The notion of the British monarchy as an austere and untouchable institution is a late Victorian/Edwardian invention.

And even if it wasn't, Edward Waterfield would have grown up in a period when Britain had one of its most famously and publicly dissolute kings. Naming one's daughter for a monarch would hardly seem appalling by comparison.

Who says she was named after Queen Victoria? Maybe Waterfield's mother or grandmother had the name 'Victoria', and he named his daughter after her.
Queen Victoria didn't invent the name 'Victoria', after all.

Would Victoria have been wearing a corset during Evil/beginning of Tomb?

Almost certainly yes. You probably couldn't have squeezed into a Victorian gown without one, and Victoria was still a couple of days away from jettisoning her entire culture to parade around in a mini-dress.

So, Rest in Peace, Victoria Waterfield.

Her icy flashes of feminism in Tomb were some of the best in Old Who (and not just because they were some of the ONLY flashes of feminism in Old Who), but her character never went anywhere, even if her costumes did (Number Two Clotheshorse after the Romanas?).

Her departure ('Oh, I'll just dump myself on those people over there, they seem nice') is unique in Who history.

But all I can think about is that unspeakable introduction she did to that video of a few orphaned Troughton episodes I mean DEAR GODS nowhere else in my life have I seen acting as bad as Neska-from-Planet-of-the-Spiders and she was just being Deborah Watling SHE WASN'T EVEN ACTING.

Once, just once, I'd like you to at least ATTEMPT to write a farewell without feeling the need to point out the not=so-great Who related stuff they did and make it sound like it's the universe's revenge for said bad projects.

I'm sure when Tom drops off the twig in a couple years you won't be going "As much as I like him I just can't forgive him for those god-awful Big FInish audios and the fact he didn't do the Five Doctors and that his wax dummy was a better than he was....."

After leaving the Doctor Victoria will have got to live through the UNIT era, with all its alien invasions. She probably coped better than most when shop dummies started lurching out of shop windows.

In theory, Three could have checked up on her. He probably wouldn't want to actually talk to her, since that would mean explaining abut regeneration, but he could still have made sure she was comfortable enough in her new home and maybe got UNIT to smooth over any problems caused by her lack of identification.

After all, I'd be pretty surprised if she had her birth certificate with her when she left, and even if she did nobody would believe it, so she'd need a decent fake.

Once, just once, I'd like you to at least ATTEMPT to write a farewell without feeling the need to point out the not=so-great Who related stuff they did

DID I do that for the Brig and Sarah Jane and suchlike?

and make it sound like it's the universe's revenge for said bad projects.

That's your interpretation, certainly not my intention. If Zeus had blasted her on the spot with a thunderbolt, fair enough (yes, it was THAT bad), but why would the universe come back decades later and smite her with lung-cancer for a minute or two's video-padding?

I'm sure when Tom drops off the twig in a couple years

Don't be silly, Tom's not going to do THAT! I'll admit I thought he'd have to be our blood-sacrifice for Rose (the way Pertwee was for the telemovie) but the gods accepted a Pope and a Prime Minister in his place and now he'll go on forever.

you won't be going "As much as I like him I just can't forgive him for those god-awful Big FInish audios and the fact he didn't do the Five Doctors and that his wax dummy was a better than he was....."

Well, I certainly won't be saying the latter, as it's simply not true. And mercifully his appearances in The Five Doctors were brilliant (if way too short and slightly nonsensical in context). And he SAYS Big Finish has given him a new lease of life so it's TOTALLY WORTH me having to sit though an additional few dozen piles of ••••...

She probably coped better than most when shop dummies started lurching out of shop windows.

Nonsense, she was probably suffering from massive amounts of PTSD and the shop dummies would have set her off.

In theory, Three could have checked up on her. He probably wouldn't want to actually talk to her, since that would mean explaining abut regeneration

Oh, don't make excuses, I'll bet you anything the TOTAL GIT never gave a moment's thought to popping in to see Barbara, Ian, Dodo, Ben, Polly OR Victoria during all those long dull UNIT years. Fitting Bessie with new inertial dampners was just so much more important.

DWM's Victorian Values (1990 interview with Deborah Watling they couldn't be bothered to use at the time but dug out upon her demise):

'Early in 1967, Doctor Who producer Innes Lloyd was searching for a fresh face to accompany the Doctor (Patrick Troughton) and Jamie McCrimmon (Frazer Hines) in the programme's fourth series' - yeah, but WHY!

When Deborah Watling was four her younger brother died when he was buried by a snow drift that slid off the roof. That's some SERIOUSLY bad luck.

And her parents' house was haunted. (By Cavaliers and stuff, not the brother.) And Deborah's bedroom was particularly haunted. But hey, 'we all managed to live there quite peacefully, ghosts and humans, and there was always a really friendly atmosphere.'

Victoria is 'Initially bewildered, fragile and naive, but later blossoming into a plucky and resourceful young woman' - really? Cos I suspect her SECOND STORY was as Plucky and Resourceful as Victoria ever GOT, it was downhill from then onwards.

Victoria departed, 'leaving the Doctor and Jamie heartbroken'? Well, if that was the case they recovered PRETTY •••• FAST. They didn't even spend FIVE MINUTES punching a diamond wall...

'Debs and I dated for a bit afterwards' - JAMIE AND VICTORIA WERE SHAGGING!!

Re returning to Who: 'Yes, I would. But I could only play Victoria...If I appeared as somebody else that would shatter their illusions and mine' - leaving aside her playing Auntie in Three's a Crowd...personally I found her playing Victoria in the abomination that was Downtime to be a LOT more illusion-shattering.

And her parents' house was haunted. (By Cavaliers and stuff, not the brother.) And Deborah's bedroom was particularly haunted. But hey, 'we all managed to live there quite peacefully, ghosts and humans, and there was always a really friendly atmosphere.'

I actually read about that in a book about haunted British homes, back in the 1980's. They mentioned the home of Jack Watling and his family being haunted. Deborah said that, although she was scared at first, soon she got used to the ghosts. The Watlings decided that, since the ghosts were not harming anyone, they decided to live and let live (no pun intended).

Sadly, both Jack and Deborah is among the ghosts herself now.

Sadly, both Jack and Deborah is among the ghosts herself now.

If only they WERE ghosts, Fans could continue relentlessly interrogating them about their Who experiences...by ouiji board if necessary...

Male Dr Who Fan: So, Debbie, what are you wearing in the afterlife? Wow... I bet you can see right through that!

**groan**

personally I found her playing Victoria in the abomination that was Downtime to be a LOT more illusion-shattering.
Not mention her sole line from Dimensions in Time "WHO WAS THAT DREADFUL WOMAN?!?!

There are so MANY abominations in Dimensions in Time that mercifully that one hasn't stuck in my mind.

"WHO WAS THAT DREADFUL WOMAN?!?!"

To be fair, it was only a few years since Maggie ruled Britain...

She was in DIT?

A long time ago, Mike wrote:

Another companion whose performances were almost completely deleted by the BBC.

With the recovery of Tomb Of The Cybermen and Enemy Of The World, that's no longer true.

And haven't they also recovered three out of the four episodes of Web Of Fear? One of the two stories in which Deborah Watling appeared with her father, Jack. Only one episode to go (keep your fingers crossed, folks).

Nice that fans can get to see more of Ms. Watling's performance as Victoria.

Watching the animated The Evil of the Daleks and in episode 5 it had Victoria grabbed from behind by Arthur Terrall.

The Evil of the Daleks is Victoria's first story and later on in Victoria's last story Fury from the Deep in its own episode 5 she again gets grabbed from behind this time by Robson.

Things sure came full circle for Victoria in more ways than one.

In all probability this may have been a coincidence with the only people involved on both stories were the main cast of Patrick Troughton, Frazer Hines and Debbie Watling and on the production side of things, Peter Bryant, associate producer of The Evil of the Daleks and producer of Fury from the Deep and visual effects designer Peter Day.

I think maybe Victoria was'nt mentioned because *drumroll* she came back to her time and inherited Edward's stuff.

Maybe she was Edward Travers' mother and thus, Anne's grandmother? She should've stayed with the Travers if anything.