Was reading the analysis of Mawdryn Undead on the BBC site, which contains this sentence in regard to the UNIT dating: This is probably the biggest continuity gaffe ever made in the series.

Agree? Any other contenders?

Even though I loathe the ludicrously early retirement of the Brig in Mawdryn I don't agree - About Time 3 came up with a perfectly reasonable UNIT date-line that incorporated the 1977 nonsense without too much trouble.

As for the biggest nit...god, I'm gonna have to think about this at extreme length, but what is really springing to mind is Susan calling the Doctor 'grandfather'. Yeah, yeah, I know, a) it's just a term of affection, b) even if it was biologically true it in no way implies the Doctor ever had sex, c) even if the First Doctor DID have sex that can't exactly be described as a nit, and d) Lungbarrow explained it away with all this 'Other's Granddaughter' stuff, but...it just FEELS wrong. The first thing, the VERY FIRST THING, we EVER learn about the Doctor is that...he's a grandparent. With all the ordinariness and human-ness and biological yuckiness that implies.

Mawdryn Undead was planned for Ian & Barbara to return, but for various reasons this didn't happen & for some reason the part was adapted for The Brigader instead.

I've only ever heard Ian, not Barbara, though I'm not informed enough to say you're wrong. As much as I love this story, thinking it's one of the top tier stories, I think it would have been even better with Ian than with the Brig, who was coming back in a few months anyway. Imagine the Doctor trying to bring back his memories *and* trying to sell him on the idea that he's regenerated, somehting Ian, unlike the Brig, would have no understanding of.

Apparently Harry Sullivan was considered after Ian but before the Brig, yet Ian Marter was unavailable.

The biggest nit is how the Doctor is so smart, yet he cannot repair the Chamellion Circuit on his TARDIS. (He tried once in the Colin Baker Era, but it failed...I THINK it was "Revelation of the Cybermen")

It was Attack of the Cybermen - and the chameleon circuit *did* work a few times, then reverted back to the police box shape.

I always thought it was more like he couldn't be bothered. And he *was* always saving the universe from collapsing in on itself, or stopping some alien that crashed on Earth before humanity's rise from waking up and wiping us out.

Come to think of it, though, you'd think the third Doctor, while exiled on Earth, would have had nothing but time. (Well, at least if all those aliens didn't try invading Earth England-first and those Time Lords didn't keep sending him on errands.)

You know what? Nevermind.

If I remember correctly, the TARDIS turned into a pipe organ in "Attack of the Cybermen"

PS...Thanx Chris for jogging my memory on the episode title.

As much as I love this story, thinking it's one of the top tier stories

Yeah, me too - I didn't mean to imply that I don't love it, just cos the Brig teaching maths at a Boys' School in 1977 is an unspeakably bad idea.

I always thought it was more like he couldn't be bothered.

I always thought it was because - like me - he PREFERRED it that way; that he recognised as a fundamental fact of the universe that his TARDIS should be a blue police telephone call box. (And it's not the only one. Alien Bodies had Marie the humanoid TARDIS default to a 60s policewoman state. Tee hee.) And I'm delighted to say that, in addition to its manifold other blessings, the new series (NEW SERIES!!!) had the Doctor announcing (albeit in somewhat defensive tones) that he LIKED it that way.

Having carefully considered the staggering number of nits Who has bestowed on us in its 42 (42!!!!!!!) years, and having been freed by the new series (praise be its name) from having to love the telemovie any more, I'm voting for that half-human nonsense. For god's sake!!!!!!! The Doctor's an alien! Even An Unearthly Child got THAT bit right. WITHOUT PARENTS! Let alone human ones! Nothing, ABSOLUTELY AND TOTALLY NOTHING* in the pre-telemovie episodes OR books implies for ONE MICROSECOND that the Doctor is anything REMOTELY APPROACHING human. And even post-telemovie the episodes, books and audios are also unanimous in their rejection of this bizarre idea.**

And why? WHY was the spirit AND WRITTEN LETTER of Who so violated? Presumably so that the Doctor could kiss an Earthwoman without people thinking it was cross-speciest and therefore icky. Well, hello! It was STILL cross-speciest and it was STILL very icky indeed! Or was it so that a human eye was needed to open the Eye of Harmony. Well, sorry, but that in no way explains what the (Gallifreyan!) Eye thought it was doing.

*OK, unless you count the fact he spent so much time saving Earth

**Unless you take that bit in Gallifrey Chronicles about Time Lord Ulysees, human Penelope and their troublesome brat way, waaaaaay too seriously.

The TARDIS appears as a stove, a playable organ, and a tomb-like doorway in Attack of the Cybermen.

I always thought that the only way for the Doctor to repair the TARDIS properly would be for him to take it back to Gallifrey, where the correct equipment to repair it exists. Any repairs he does "on the road" would be makeshift at best.

The biggest nit? That the future Doctors never remember meeting their earlier selves, and then remembering how everything turns out. For example, it should have been the Fifth Doctor, not the First, that solved the Riddle of Rassilon in "The Five Doctors."

Strange how he never got it repaired whenever he was there on Gallifrey - particularly after they exiled him to Earth.

I always thought the biggest nit was the Second Doctor remembering stuff that can't have happened to him yet in The Five Doctors (unless you go into all the Season 6b theories).

I always thought that the only way for the Doctor to repair the TARDIS properly would be for him to take it back to Gallifrey

And how wrong you were! Nope, taking the TARDIS to Earth and measuring up a real police box is obviously the only logical way to go about it...STILL not working?! Well, just drown it, why don't you. Then take the Master to Logopolis so he can wipe out half the universe and round off a memorable day by jumping off a radio telescope...

Not that I'm bitter or anything. No-one gets over the departure of favourite Doctors more easily than me.

the future Doctors never remember meeting their earlier selves

But that was all explained in Cold Fusion! Sort of.

Strange how he never got it repaired whenever he was there on Gallifrey

Has he ever actually been on Gallifrey when the Time Lords aren't facing imminent destruction and/or trying to execute him?

I suppose he could have told the mysteriously obliging Damon to TRY to rustle up an obsolete Type 40 Chameleon Circuit...

the Second Doctor remembering stuff that can't have happened to him yet in The Five Doctors

But it does (kind of) make sense (a lot more sense than Terrance Dicks being allowed to write Season 6b novels (or, indeed, ANY novels)) that, what with Time Lords being almost telepathic, and several Doctors wandering around almost together, and all that 'Contact!' stuff, AND with Rassilon digging around inside their minds, that memories would leak between the Doctors. They're the same person, after all. And then their brains would, to protect their own sanity, quietly bury those bits of future information...

Of course, this doesn't explain what the hell Mr Time Lord Agent Troughton thought he was doing in The Two Doctors.

And another thing that almost half-humanlike in its total pointless wrongness...the after-life, as seen (or heard, anyway) in Ghosts of N-Space. (Whose title alone contains at least two nits.) So we're all gonna live happily ever after when we die? Funny no-one else has mentioned THAT in the 42 years of Who history*. And it does render the Doc's adventures a bit pointless. LET everyone die, Doc! It'll do 'em good.

*Camera Obscura also made the severe mistake of messing around in the afterlife, but at least it was portrayed as neither conclusive nor pleasant. Oh, and there was the Excelis trilogy (or quartet) but no-one can be expected to take an afterlife seriously when it's contained in Iris Wildtyme's gold lame handbag...

The most obvious nit in Whodom has got to be why the Doctor never uses the TARDIS to solve elementary problems. Yeah, yeah, RTD came up with all that no going back on your own timeline nonsense, but that's weak.

There's no reason he couldn't have nipped back just before the crash and evacuated Adric (apart from the obvious, that is) or jumped around a bit to save the Ood from the black hole or a hundred other instances where a few more moments would have made all the difference.

Of course, there'd be no show if the TARDIS could be used the way a normal person would use it, but it's still a glaring nit.

There's no reason he couldn't have nipped back just before the crash and evacuated Adric

Makes you think that the Doctor was happy to be rid of Adders and cooked up that "rules can't be broken" thing to cover it up.

Maybe the Timelords were keeping a closer watch on him than normal(it is less than a season since Romana bailed on them).

Yeah, yeah, RTD came up with all that no going back on your own timeline nonsense, but that's weak.

Isn't it just. No doubt we'd be the first to complain if Parting of the Ways or Girl in the Fireplace DIDN'T give us such an explanation, but still...I prefer Old Who having the Doctor throw incomprehensible phrases like 'Blinovitch Limitation Effect' around, and then (mercifully, I think A Celebration said) getting interrupted by time-travelling guerrillas before he could explain...

There's no reason he couldn't have nipped back just before the crash and evacuated Adric (apart from the obvious, that is) or jumped around a bit to save the Ood from the black hole or a hundred other instances where a few more moments would have made all the difference.

Yeah, but I suppose you can always fall back on the good old 'can't control the TARDIS properly' standby. As Tegan could testify, Davison hadn't quite got the hang of it, and even new series Docs slip up on a regular basis (Aliens of London, Tooth and Claw, Eleventh Hour). You can understand why Tennant wouldn't want to risk Rose's life by trying to time-travel to save a bunch of red-eyed slavery-lovers. (What he SHOULD have done, of course, is atone for his failure by investigating what the **** made the Ood like that in the first place...though I suppose he assumed that if it needed sorting out, the TARDIS would take him to the appropriate time n'place sooner or later...as of course it did.)

Makes you think that the Doctor was happy to be rid of Adders and cooked up that "rules can't be broken" thing to cover it up.

Yup

Maybe the Timelords were keeping a closer watch on him than normal(it is less than a season since Romana bailed on them).

Though by now the Doc should be fairly sure the Time Lords need him as their agent too badly to give him anything more than a slap on the wrist for disobeying them. As it happened, of course, they probably wouldn't even have MENTIONED Romana if they hadn't had to drag him to Gallifrey over the Omega business. (Which makes his disgusting decision to force her back to Gallifrey even more inexplicable.)

EmilyWhich makes his disgusting decision to force her back to Gallifrey even more inexplicable.)

You've got me there-he told them he'd bring her back, and everyone knows the Fifth Doctor never,ever,ever lies(except for that one about going back to become president(oops)).

And then he works so hard to get her back to them(straight through a CVE and into another universe, wander around until someone takes the hint and bails-and then back to N-space).

And it's not his fault that the only person who claimed he knew how to get back to E-space was killed by the Cybermen before he could solve the math(poor Adric-if only you knew when to shut up).

And we all know what a kind and gentle friend to his companions he is-he only had two die on him;WHAT-are you telling me only Hartnell matches that number???

OMG(oh my gravy)-HAVE WE UNCOVERED A COVER-UP TO KEEP ROMANA OFF GALLIFREY????

On the other hand-could the Time-Lords with all their power and wisdom be fooled so easily???

And how could it be maintained-wait a minute,what's that odd noise I'm hearing--NO, NO- I'LL KEEP QUIET ARGHHHH!!!!

Of course it was only bacause he couldn't control the TARDIS that keep him from going back. The Fifth Doctor is a really,really nice guy!!!!

How'd a blue non-smiley face end up in my post???

I assume you put a colon and the opening parenthis, and whatever else you might have thrown in.

Oh, is that what happened.

Thank you for letting me know Kevin.

You've got me there-he told them he'd bring her back, and everyone knows the Fifth Doctor never,ever,ever lies(except for that one about going back to become president(oops)).

Oi! Firstly, the FOURTH Doc (Romana was gone by the time he made the mistake of becoming Five, in fact her departure might well have been the reason he chose to go jumping off radio telescopes, a la Ten dying in Runaway Bride (Turn Left version)) didn't tell the Time Lords anything that we know of, he just received their orders and told Romana he was taking her back. (He also later said they'd 'burn that bridge when we come to it', interesting choice of words.)

Secondly, the Fifth Doctor didn't say how soon he'd come back. He did, in fact, return and proclaim himself President, it's just that he was Six by then and it didn't go down too well.

And then he works so hard to get her back to them(straight through a CVE and into another universe, wander around until someone takes the hint and bails-and then back to N-space).

It was entirely chance that they got caught in that CVE! He didn't even NOTICE they were in another universe at first!

And it's not his fault that the only person who claimed he knew how to get back to E-space was killed by the Cybermen before he could solve the math(poor Adric-if only you knew when to shut up).

Hey! Adders went splat AFTER solving the problem. And leaving notes.

And we all know what a kind and gentle friend to his companions he is-he only had two die on him;WHAT-are you telling me only Hartnell matches that number???

Kamelion doesn't count.

HAVE WE UNCOVERED A COVER-UP TO KEEP ROMANA OFF GALLIFREY????

Not judging by the NAs (President of Gallifrey), the EDAs (War Queen and Mistress of the Nine Gallifreys) or audios (several entire Gallifrey series devoted to her misfortunes on said planet). And if you (sensibly) want to ignore all those...Romana MUST have returned to her dear old home before the Time War broke out or the Doctor WOULD have gone back to E-Space to find the only surviving member of his species (even if this would have entailed some SERIOUSLY embarrassing explanations.)

On the other hand-could the Time-Lords with all their power and wisdom be fooled so easily???

Well, DUH.

The Fifth Doctor is a really,really nice guy!!!!

Wow. That was a tour-de-force.

AAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!--another try at a joke goes down in flames as it's nitpicked to pieces!!!!

I thought that my last three lines made it clear I was joking--how many times have we seen stories where someone starts to figure out something he shouldn't kmow-and being converted by force(I don't see the Doctor killing without reason).

I'm sorry-it is one of the oldest tricks in the book.

On the other hand-what is scary is how well everything fits together-the plot works.

I admit I did make one mistake--I shold have said "everyone knows the Fourth Doctor never" not "everyone knows the Fifth Doctor never"; I didn't notice this until after I posted.

Emily:Kamelion doesn't count.

By the same logic you're using-I can exclude both Katerina(?) and Sara Kingdom-making Adders really stand out as the only companion that we see truly killed in all of Who.

Emily:Not judging by the NAs (President of Gallifrey), the EDAs (War Queen and Mistress of the Nine Gallifreys) or audios (several entire Gallifrey series devoted to her misfortunes on said planet). And if you (sensibly) want to ignore all those...Romana MUST have returned to her dear old home before the Time War broke out or the Doctor WOULD have gone back to E-Space to find the only surviving member of his species (even if this would have entailed some SERIOUSLY embarrassing explanations.)

Over my years as a sci fi fan- one of the things I've learned is never,ever,ever treat the novels as canon, if you do it will end up biting you in the *** every time(and I say the same about story adaptations(?)-anything new in them is non-canon until proven otherwise).

Emily:Well, DUH.

Oh well-at least you got the point on this one.

Emily:Wow. That was a tour-de-force.

That was the point-a piece of sillyness thet I thought everyone would enjoy.

On the other hand-your reaction makes me look again-and it is scary how well everything fits together(a couple of lies by the FOURTH Doctor and a misplaced notebook seem to be the only flaws)-maybe we should look at this further.

I thought that my last three lines made it clear I was joking

Of course it was clear you were joking. And of course I was gonna nitpick every word ANYWAY. It's what I DO. Y'know...ME: River Song said in Pandorica/Big Bang that the Doctor taught her to fly the TARDIS, but in Time of Angels she said the Doctor was busy that day! EVERYONE ELSE: She was obviously joking in ToA. ME: Yeah - and your point IS...?

Emily:Kamelion doesn't count.

By the same logic you're using-I can exclude both Katerina(?) and Sara Kingdom-making Adders really stand out as the only companion that we see truly killed in all of Who.

Agreed. (At least, the only one who bloody STAYS dead. Give or take The Boy That Time Forgot...)

On the other hand-your reaction makes me look again-and it is scary how well everything fits together(a couple of lies by the FOURTH Doctor and a misplaced notebook seem to be the only flaws)-maybe we should look at this further.

Well, QUITE. I always knew Five was evil really. He unravelled the Sacred Scarf, after all.

Emily:Well, QUITE. I always knew Five was evil really. He unravelled the Sacred Scarf, after all.

I never said he was evil-I said he was more loyal to Romana than he was to Adric(who here wouldn't be)--if Adders could keep his mouth shut he might have lived.

By the way-he only unravelled one of the scarfs-I think there were at least four(the bright one he first used,its replacement when it was cut in Mandragoora(?),the wine colored one(unravelled by Five) and its replacement(rejacted by McCoy)). We also saw McGann reject a bright one in the movie.

Emily: Oi! Firstly, the FOURTH Doc (Romana was gone by the time he made the mistake of becoming Five, in fact her departure might well have been the reason he chose to go jumping off radio telescopes, a la Ten dying in Runaway Bride (Turn Left version)) didn't tell the Time Lords anything that we know of, he just received their orders and told Romana he was taking her back. (He also later said they'd 'burn that bridge when we come to it', interesting choice of words.)

As I've already commented on Romana-here I'll comment on Four. I don't think he had much choise about what happened to him.

I just rewatched the sequence--I think he was going ro regenerate if he held on or not.

When he pulled out the wire(to stop the Masters broadcast)-he clearly took a massive electric shock. While he was hanging there-he started getting the pre-regeneration flashback-reached out grabbed a girder,let go the wire, and then lost his strenght and his grip and fell(to continue the regeneration on the ground).

I don't think he had any choise in the matter.

I think the biggest nit is these aliens always attacking Earth. Especially the ones looking for a new home. There must be countless suitable uninhabited planets that they can colonize. Why bother with little old us.

It just got silly in the 70's, during the exile period, when Earth was invaded every time you turned around.

You never know, perhaps tons of other worlds were also being invaded, but the BBC doesn't operate there.

There's circumstantial evidence at least to suggest that Mars has never been invaded.

Earth has to be situated strategically in the grand scheme of things, or else our soloar system is.

Plus the number of attempted invasions that have all failed must present itself as an irrestiable challenge to some.

And who knows what those wacky Silurians were up to. Maybe they painted a big 'Kick me hard' sign on the Earth before they went to sleep.

Now why England (and now Cardiff) is at the centre of it is another question. As is why Mars, which also produced a space-faring race, isn't. Not to mention those six-armed akido-practicing Venusians...

Pointing out two currently uninhabitable planets in our solar system as evidence that other plantes in the universe aren't being invaded left, right & center isn't very convincing. We've no reason to believe Earth is any more invader-prone than all the others. The only question is why the Doctor feels determined to defend it.

if Adders could keep his mouth shut he might have lived.

How did you work THAT out?

By the way-he only unravelled one of the scarfs

You realise that to MY ears that sounds exactly like 'he only kicked ONE cat...he only wiped out ONE planet'...

When he pulled out the wire(to stop the Masters broadcast)-he clearly took a massive electric shock. While he was hanging there-he started getting the pre-regeneration flashback-reached out grabbed a girder,let go the wire, and then lost his strenght and his grip and fell(to continue the regeneration on the ground).

I don't think he had any choise in the matter.

I'll bear that in mind when I rewatch, thanks. It would be a comfort to think he didn't DELIBERATELY LET GO FOR NO REASON. Mind you, the Doc's usually quite good at coping with massive electric shocks, he survived all that lightning in Evolution, for a start.

It just got silly in the 70's, during the exile period, when Earth was invaded every time you turned around.

I DID see a great suggestion somewhere that every time the Doctor looked like he was getting bored, the Brig made poor Benton dress up in a monster costume and pretend to invade Earth...

There's circumstantial evidence at least to suggest that Mars has never been invaded.

I thought the Fendahl landed there and reduced it to dust? And then there were the Osirians...the Ambassadors...and, of course, the humans...

Plus the number of attempted invasions that have all failed must present itself as an irrestiable challenge to some.

I honestly think if everyone KNEW about the billions of previous invasions - and exactly Who'd foiled 'em - they'd at least be a BIT better prepared when they encountered an eccentric-looking bloke with a blue box...

And who knows what those wacky Silurians were up to. Maybe they painted a big 'Kick me hard' sign on the Earth before they went to sleep.

Given that they were expecting to wake up again shortly...probably not.

We've no reason to believe Earth is any more invader-prone than all the others.

It must be, it just MUST. What would it DO to the Doctor, to KNOW that every time he saves ungrateful old Earth yet again - or so much as sits down for a nice meal - FOURTEEN unique, innocent, inhabited planets have been wiped off the map?

The only question is why the Doctor feels determined to defend it.

Because, as the Master put it: He's always playing with Earth girls. (Mind you...HE can talk...)

Because, as the Master put it: He's always playing with Earth girls.

Yes, he is a bit of a cradle robber.

What can I say-by the time they hit their 450th birthday-Earth girls just lose their appeal.

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Pointing out two currently uninhabitable planets in our solar system as evidence that other plantes in the universe aren't being invaded left, right & center isn't very convincing. We've no reason to believe Earth is any more invader-prone than all the others. The only question is why the Doctor feels determined to defend it.
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Well, if there's any race that can survive in temperatures around 200 Kelvin and breath extremely thin carbon dioxide atmospheres, then they're welcome to Mars.

As most races in the universe seem to want oxygen atmospheres, gravitational acceleration of about 9.8m/s and temperatures around 270-300 Kelvin, chances are Earth would be more attractive to them.

Maybe it's the Earth's status as a world the Doctor protects that makes it so attractive ("see this world, the Doctor USED to protect it until I showed up"). Or maybe it's the highly virulent dominant lifeform, perfect for use as slave labour or conscript armies, that occupys it that puts it atop the list of worlds to invade.

What can I say-by the time they hit their 450th birthday-Earth girls just lose their appeal.

I'll thank you to refer to females of that age as WOMEN.

Well, if there's any race that can survive in temperatures around 200 Kelvin and breath extremely thin carbon dioxide atmospheres, then they're welcome to Mars.

But surely if that total cretin Rattigan can invent a successful Terraformer in the early twenty-first century, Mars needn't be quite so hot for long...

Maybe it's the Earth's status as a world the Doctor protects that makes it so attractive ("see this world, the Doctor USED to protect it until I showed up").

Anyone who knows THAT much about the Doctor - and the fact that EARTH - IS - PROTECTED! ought to know to do an Atraxi-style scarpering.

Or maybe it's the highly virulent dominant lifeform, perfect for use as slave labour or conscript armies

I dunno about PERFECT. What have we got that Ogrons haven't, I'd like to know?

Me:What can I say-by the time they hit their 450th birthday-Earth girls just lose their appeal.

Emily:I'll thank you to refer to females of that age as WOMEN.

In truth the term is corpses-if there's that much left(I was useing the same term used in the post above).

Emily:I dunno about PERFECT. What have we got that Ogrons haven't, I'd like to know?

We're smarter(can follow orders), faster(we can dodge enemy fire),and we can be trained to shoot straight.

Take this, add that if you can convince a human that it's right then he'll/she'll/it'll happily join in the on carnage--and you have a winning combo.

By the way-I forgot to mention a bored population of over 6 billion to be used.

Emily:I dunno about PERFECT. What have we got that Ogrons haven't, I'd like to know?

We're smarter(can follow orders), faster(we can dodge enemy fire),and we can be trained to shoot straight.

BUT our smarter, faster, straight-shooting ways will be turned against the filthy alien invaders. We WON'T just follow orders. Just look at Libya. Or Harriet Jones saying 'You know nothing of any human. And that will be your downfall...'

Take this, add that if you can convince a human that it's right then he'll/she'll/it'll happily join in the on carnage--and you have a winning combo.

Luckily most invading armies will discover that, IF we're not bright enough to tell the difference between right and wrong, we are at least pretty racist and unlikely to take kindly to orders from something that looks like THAT.

By the way-I forgot to mention a bored population of over 6 billion to be used.

Yeah, there are a helluvalot of us (though don't try to put a figure on it: even the Doctor can't manage that). This isn't necessarily an advantage for alien invaders. You'd THINK we'd be all too happy to spare 10% of our rug-rats but no, we just kick up SUCH a fuss...

The biggest nit in Doctor Who is the way his adversaries fail to kill him when they have perfect opportunities to do so. For example, in The Deadly Assassin, the Master has a stazer pointed at the Doctor, even shoots him with it, but for some inexplicable reason only uses the stun setting on him.

Or take Eleven making sure the Atraxi leaves the Earth alone for good. He is standing face to eyeball with an Atraxi alien, introduces himself and tells it to, basically, run. Had I been that Atraxi bloke, I would just have shot that bowtie wearing clown in the face and be done with it instead of running away. There are examples after examples of such unlikely behavior on the part really powerful foes who should have no trouble at all riding themselves of that pesky Timelord

The only exception to that nit I can think of is in The Stolen Earth. The Doctor and Rose are running toward each other to finally be reunited. In comes a Dalek, it sees the Doctor, screams EXTERMINATE once, takes aim and shoots. No wasted time, to hesitation, perfectly done. And the Doctor survives anyway, proof that he really doesn't need help from his ennemies to triumph.

The biggest nit in Doctor Who is the way his adversaries fail to kill him when they have perfect opportunities to do so.

I don't know if that's the BIGGEST nit (I'm going with TIME - UNIT dating, Doctor dating, Time-Lord-history dating, basically ANY occasion when a specific year, or indeed trillion-year period, is mentioned it totally contradicts a previous claim) but it's certainly the most COMMON. But one can at least come up with an explanation every time, even if they may be wearing a little thin...

For example, in The Deadly Assassin, the Master has a stazer pointed at the Doctor, even shoots him with it, but for some inexplicable reason only uses the stun setting on him.

Inexplicable? Never! The Master explains that hate is the only thing keeping him going. Watching the Doctor get imprisoned, humiliated, tortured and finally executed by his own people would be MUCH more effective at prolonging his life than just SHOOTING the Doc before he knows what's hit him.

Or take Eleven making sure the Atraxi leaves the Earth alone for good. He is standing face to eyeball with an Atraxi alien, introduces himself and tells it to, basically, run.

Ah, but the explanation by NOW is that the Doc's got really BIG. (So big he ends up having to fake his own death.) Logically speaking yes, there's nothing to stop the Atraxi from gunning him down but, like the Vashta Nerada (who could have reduced him to a skeleton without him having ANY WAY WHATSOEVER of stopping them) they'd looked him up and sensibly realised that the last few thousand people who'd tried that sort of thing had ended up in pieces. When you've already got what you wanted (as both the Axtraxi and Vashta had) and you don't KNOW the Lonely God hasn't got something up his sleeve, it's rather stupid to gamble your victory against such odds - and for WHAT?

Had I been that Atraxi bloke, I would just have shot that bowtie wearing clown in the face and be done with it instead of running away.

But Eleven is SO ADORABLE! There's no way you'd REALLY do it. Ditto for most of the OTHER Doctors, though of course there's one exception whose coat alone would drive Gandhi himself to demand the death penalty...

There are examples after examples of such unlikely behavior on the part really powerful foes who should have no trouble at all riding themselves of that pesky Timelord

But bear in mind most of said foes are off their heads. OF COURSE most common-or-garden megalomaniacs would want to feed the Doc to their pet octopus/sacrifice him to their god/turn him into fertiliser rather than boringly shoot him. They can't seriously think they're in much danger from leaving the unarmed clown alive for a few minutes longer - if they didn't have an inflated sense of their own abilities they wouldn't be megalomaniacs in the first place.

More dangerous foes quite rightly think the Doctor's knowledge/biology/time machine/whatever would be invaluable to them - at least enough to postpone his death till they'd extracted his secrets.

And the REALLY big hitters - Davros, the Master, the Dalek God-Emperor, Rassilon - are so obsessed by the Doctor they'd happily scupper the survival of their own species in order to explore the Doctor's psychology and, if at all possible, score a few debating points about what a destroyer he's become.

When the chips are down...as the Master himself admitted...a cosmos without the Doctor scarcely bears thinking about.

The only exception to that nit I can think of is in The Stolen Earth. The Doctor and Rose are running toward each other to finally be reunited. In comes a Dalek, it sees the Doctor, screams EXTERMINATE once, takes aim and shoots. No wasted time, to hesitation, perfectly done. And the Doctor survives anyway

And what's more, if the Dalek hadn't exterminated the Doctor, the Daleks would have won and EVERY UNIVERSE EVER would have been destroyed. Think of the message THAT sends out to every villain tempted to come and have a go if they think they're hard enough...

Emily:Ditto for most of the OTHER Doctors, though of course there's one exception whose coat alone would drive Gandhi himself to demand the death penalty...

Hey, on the order of costumes at least he was trying(okay, very trying with that outfit)--unlike a certain EccyDoc who couldn't be bothered(I've seen people wearing his "costume" while shopping at the store, add the jacket for riding on the bus).

Eccy didn't NEED to wear some elaborate Edwardian (or whatever) costume to prove he was the Doctor. You just took one look and you KNEW. Not just that he was a Doctor but that he was THE ONE we'd been living for all these decades without realising it...

DWM makes a nice TRY at explaining away UNIT dating - 'sometime between 1980 (Sarah's time) and 1983 (pre-Mawdryn), the Brigadier was transported back to 1976, without any means of returning to the then-present day...he hides himself away in an English public school...'

Moderator's Note: Moved from 'New Series: Season Seven: Cold War':

That's the point though isn't it? If there's still a big consistency then it can't have been resolved.

No, the point is that Sarah saying she's from 1980 doesn't mean UNIT took place in the 1980s; it implies it took place in the late 70s.

UNIT dating has been resolved, to my satisfaction, because the evidence for the early 70s, around the broadcast date, is much stronger than that for later dates.

We know, for example, that Sarah Jane was definitely born in 1951, and that she said she was 23 in Invasion of the Dinosaurs. She ought to know how old she is, and she has no reason to lie about her age, placing that story in 1974/75. Mawdryn Undead shows the Brigadier had definitely retired from UNIT by 1977, at the latest.

The only way that date can be wrong is if someone spend 6 years making the Brigadier, and his entire school, think the date was several years earlier than it actually was, so they celebrated the Silver Jubilee in 1980, or later, completely forgetting that they'd already done it a few years earlier. The same mysterious plotter would also have to make sure no one in the school mentioned the date when talking to people outside, which includes censoring what the pupils say to their parents. Such a conspiracy might not technically be impossible, but what would be the point?

Compare this strong evidence for an early UNIT with that for later dates. In Web of Fear, Travers says Abominable Snowman took place over 40 years ago, and Victoria says that was 1935, putting Web in 1975. However, Travers is obviously not giving an exact number, his memory is going, and Victoria is only guessing when Abominable Snowmen happened, making this date pretty unreliable.

Further, we know Invasion was four years after Web, so 1975 for Web puts the cybermen in 1979. If Sarah Jane is from 1980, then all five Pertwee years must be squeezed between these two episodes, into no more than two years - Invasion in January 1979, Robot in December 1980 - a period during which the Brigadier was apparently leading a double life as an amnesiac school teacher. Is this really believable?

Since the rest of the evidence for a late UNIT is equally flimsy, Occam's Razor means we can dismiss it as the characters rounding numbers off, or just being forgetful. An early 70s UNIT makes much more sense.

But this resolves nothing. A proper resolution would satisfyingly incorporate all the evidence into a coherent whole. Once you start dismissing unambiguous evidence you're admitting that you're only ever going to come up with a partial answer.

But I'm not dismissing unambiguous evidence. If it were unambiguous, it would have only one interpretation - at the very least, only one reasonable interpretation. It doesn't. All the evidence that suggests a late date for UNIT has multiple interpretations, leaving us free to resolve the ambiguities in the way that makes most sense.

If we take everything at face value, we get an incoherent mess where, among other absurdities, the Brigadier is running UNIT at the same time as he is an amnesiac school teacher.

If, though, we allow for people to occasionally round up dates and loose track of time, then we get a coherent chronology, with UNIT in the early 70s.

Which is more likely, that Travers can't remember whether it was 30 or 40 years, or that the Brigadier was moonlighting as a teacher?

"If it were unambiguous, it would have only one interpretation"

But the sentence "I'm from 1980" does have only one interpretation: "I'm from 1980"!

"If we take everything at face value, we get an incoherent mess where, among other absurdities, the Brigadier is running UNIT at the same time as he is an amnesiac school teacher."

That's because it is an incoherent mess where, among other absurdities, the Brigadier is running UNIT at the same time as he is an amnesiac school teacher.

"Which is more likely, that Travers can't remember whether it was 30 or 40 years, or that the Brigadier was moonlighting as a teacher?"

Most likely is that Doctor Who is a fictional television programme put together by lots of different people who often can't manage to be consistent with themselves, let alone something that said 30 years earlier.

Most likely is that Doctor Who is a fictional television programme put together by lots of different people who often can't manage to be consistent with themselves, let alone something that said 30 years earlier.

That's reality. We are nitpickers. We don't deal in reality.

But the sentence "I'm from 1980" does have only one interpretation: "I'm from 1980"!

The sentence didn't say itself; Sarah Jane said it, and that introduces two ambiguities.

First, when does Sarah Jane think she's from? She could be referring to when her Tardis travel started, or to what the year would be if she'd never got in the Tardis. That is, if hypothetically, she left Earth in 1990 and travelled with the Doctor for five years, by her reckoning, would she say she was from 1990 or 1995?

Second, does she actually know when she left the Earth, and how long she's been with the Doctor? Between running for her life and enjoying the Doctor's company, she doesn't have much time to check the calender.

These questions mean there are multiple interpretations of Sarah Jane claiming to be from 1980, an ambiguity we can resolve as we choose.

Of course, if you want to believe UNIT chronology is an incoherent mess, you can. However, if we can make sense of it just by assuming that on two or three occasions people made typical human errors, that seems highly preferable, to me at least.

I think you're going to extraordinary lengths to undermine what's an unambiguous statement. Sarah says she's from 1980. That can be read in a couple of ways - does it mean that 'The Time Warrior' is set in 1980 or that, say, 'Terror of the Zygons' is set in 1980? - but anything else is just a weird convolution trying to fit in with other mutually inconsistent statements.

Basically, there are two ways to deal with the apparent inconsistencies - take everything at face value, and contrive baroque explanations for how it all fits together, or contrive some alternative interpretation for one of the scenes.

The first route can be entertaining, in a way, if you don't care about plausibility, and I have indulged in it at times. However, the other alternative produces a more coherent picture.

Of course, if we're allowed to ignore any inconvenient bits of the show, we can draw any conclusion we like, making discussion pointless. I certainly wouldn't suggest doing that. Rather, I'd say that the interesting question is "What is the minimum amount of fudging needed for a coherent time-line?"

Take Sarah Jane. We're told on screen she was born in 1951, 23 in Invasion of the Dinosaurs, and was ''from 1980" in Pyramids of Mars. If we take everything at face value, this means she aged six years between Invasion and Planet of the Spiders/Robot (the time she's from, in the most natural interpretation.) That's an extra six years for Pertwee - fine in itself - but to avoid inconsistencies we now have to explain why Sarah stopped ageing for six years - doable, but it has knock-on consequences, which also need explaining away etc.

Dsimissing Sarah's 1980 claim as some kind of mistake is actually the explanation that requires the least contrivance.

More broadly, to get a coherent time line with an early 70s UNIT, we only need to contrive explanations for people getting dates or timespans wrong on a handful of occasions, which doesn't take much contrivance at all. For a late 70s UNIT, we have to explain away the Brigadier's double life as an amnesiac school teacher, Sarah Jane not ageing for six years, etc, requiring much more contrivance.

A proper resolution would satisfyingly incorporate all the evidence into a coherent whole.

Utterly impossible.

And, post-Time War, post-Crack, post-Doctor's-joke-in-Sontaran-Stratagem*-'In-the-70s-or-was-it-the-80s'...quite possibly unnecessary.

If we take everything at face value, we get an incoherent mess where, among other absurdities, the Brigadier is running UNIT at the same time as he is an amnesiac school teacher.

See my post of April 5th, 2012...

If, though, we allow for people to occasionally round up dates and loose track of time, then we get a coherent chronology, with UNIT in the early 70s.

To quote Eccy, 'There's a scientific explanation for that: you're thick.'

Which is more likely, that Travers can't remember whether it was 30 or 40 years, or that the Brigadier was moonlighting as a teacher?

Frankly the Brig-as-maths-teacher is so unlikely he might as well be moonlighting...

But the sentence "I'm from 1980" does have only one interpretation: "I'm from 1980"!

I don't suppose there was any opportunity for the Doc and Sarah to take a NICE LONG HOLIDAY in 1980 prior to Pyramids...?

Most likely is that Doctor Who is a fictional television programme put together by lots of different people who often can't manage to be consistent with themselves, let alone something that said 30 years earlier.

BURN THE BLASPHEMER!

That's reality. We are nitpickers. We don't deal in reality.

Hear, hear.

For a late 70s UNIT, we have to explain away the Brigadier's double life as an amnesiac school teacher, Sarah Jane not ageing for six years, etc, requiring much more contrivance.

Though frankly Sarah not ageing isn't much of a stretch. She looked INSANELY young in SJA, which ALSO helpfully mentioned the eternal youthfulness of certain previous TARDIS Companions...

*Nicked, obviously, from Interference.

I don't suppose there was any opportunity for the Doc and Sarah to take a NICE LONG HOLIDAY in 1980 prior to Pyramids...?

Not much. All the season 12 stories run into each other. There's a gap between 'Revenge of the Cybermen' and 'Terror of the Zygons' but if they'd spent a long time in Earth, Harry would have probably left then. That means the holiday would need to be just before or just after Planet of Evil - possible, but so is Sarah getting her dates confused.

The Doctor's Sontaran Strategem joke may just mean he never bothered to check a calender when he was Three. After all, even if Sarah Jane is from 1980, that means UNIT was in the late 70s, not the early 80s.

Though frankly Sarah not ageing isn't much of a stretch. She looked INSANELY young in SJA, ...

And what about the rest of UNIT? If Invasion was is in 74, but Robot was in 1980, then the Brigadier, Benton and the rest went six years without visibly ageing. Did they all get frozen for half a decade or something?

Isn't the Brig's claim to have retried in 1977 easier to explain away as a mistake than Sarah's 1980. He had had a nervous breakdown, currently had amnesia and the Doctor had just broken through his psychological defences so his memory was re-sorting itself.

Isn't the Brig's claim to have retired in 1977 easier to explain away as a mistake than Sarah's 1980.

No, because we see the Silver Jubilee celebrations going on the year the Brig retired, and the jubilee was in 1977 - confirmed by Idiot's Lantern, which was pretty definitely in 1952.

Yes, right. Momentary lapse on my part there.

Here's a nit for the celebrations. Many have said Doctor Who has run for 50 years.

Uh, actually, it's run for 34 year, if you subtract the 16 year hiatus.

While 2013 is the 50th Anniversary of Doctor Who, it has not been continually in production all that time (unless you want to count the Audios and novels, of course).

Even if you count the books and audios, there'd be a hiatus from 1989 to 1991.

If you count original books then there was no single year when Doctor Who was on hiatus, as Mission to Magnus was published in 1990.

And, of course, there have been Doctor Who comic strips every year and short stories in most since 1964.

Another nit: Did they really think humans would still be listening to Britney Spears thousands of years from now!?

I'll lay you credits to beans that no one will remember her a hundred years from now, let alone several thousand.

She probably survived purely by chance, like that goose book (or whatever it was) in Mysterious Planet.

Artists do get rediscovered after they're forgotten though.

Not that I'd want her to be rediscovered. As I recall, I didn't even know the song was by Britanny Spears until someone here pointed it out. But it's very RTD to pay attention to pop stars. There's that, plus look at who he cast for the first companion. And wasn't there some artist mentioned in Father's Day as having a greatest hits when he only had a hit or two when the episode was produced?

And wasn't there some artist mentioned in Father's Day as having a greatest hits when he only had a hit or two when the episode was produced?

Rick Astley:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Astley


I'm guessing you meant when the episode was SET, in 1987.

I meant when it was produced, but it was Fear Her, not Father's Day.

Of course, there is all the humans and humanoids that the Doctor encounters (two arms, two legs, one head). Of course, a lot of them are future descendants of Earthlings. However, what about races that have no connection whatsoever to the planet Earth (Trakenites, Alzarians, heck, even Time Lords). Bit hard to explain that away.

Mind you, Doctor Who is not alone in this problem, all Sci-Fi shows and movies have to deal with this. Some, like Star Trek and Stargate, have in-universe explanations for why this is, but many other shows and movies simply don't bother.

This is one nit you just have to accept.

We certainly DON'T just have to accept it!

The NA Lucifer Rising said that that because Time Lords evolved first, that created a universal morphic field that made other species much more likely to be just like them.

And the Faction Paradox universe goes much further, with them DELIBERATELY Anchoring the Thread to stitch their biologies into the substance of creation...

Not canon, doesn't count.

Nice try, Emily, but the nit stands.

Tim - Of course, there is all the humans and humanoids that the Doctor encounters

But is it really a nit? The idea that aliens shouldn't look humanoid isn't actually a fact, just a possibility.

Maybe being humanoid really is the best form to have for being an intelligent, technological species?

Two eyes allows one to judge distances. Fingers are much better for delicate construction work than tentacles. Two legs and two arms works well for balance and working while standing or operating something while moving.

Sure artists can draw some really cool looking aliens, but would they really work as well?

Chimps follow the same body plan as ours, but you would never mistake them for humans, unless it was very dark, or you were very drunk, or both. Evolution doesn't follow a plan, it goes with what works right now.

Once, I saw a small frog and a large dragonfly sunning themselves on a rock, facing each other a few inches appart. I was struck by the fact that these two creatures lived in the same environment, ate the same things, followed the same life cycle (eggs laid in water, water breathing larva, air breathing adult) and yet they looked so very different. If animals evolved from the same starting point and on the same planet can diverge to such a degree, it would be an extraordinary thing that creatures evolved on completely separate worlds could resemble each other so much that you could mistake one for the other.

All in the Family hit the air in '71. Not sure when the toilet was introduced, but was an off-camera sound effect and practically a recurring character.

Regardless, it wasn't the first. Wally and the Beaver's bathroom had a toilet. In the episode where they bought a baby alligator, they kept in the toilet tank, completly visible on-screen.

Not saying that's the first, but it's the earliest one I've seen.

That two inept morons like Fisk and Costa (Nightmare Of Eden) would be put in charge of a major drug investigation.

I guess Chief O'Hara* and Barney Fife** weren't available.


*Obligatory Emily Explanation 1: Chief O'Hara is the sidekick of Commissioner Gordon on the old 1960's Batman show.

**Obligatory Emily Explanation 2: Barney Fife was the bumbling deputy (played by Don Knotts) on the old Andy Griffith Show.

Actually I'm not sure they were SUPPOSED to be in charge of a major drug investigation - 'This is Waterguard Fisk and Landing Officer Costa of the Azurian Excise' - they were probably supposed to be investigating how two spaceships crashed into each other when the Doctor rather stupidly started saying 'Drugs! Vraxoin!' in their faces.

Of course, you could, and should, argue that they shouldn't have been in charge of investigating space-crashes EITHER.

Listen made it crystal clear with 'He'll never make a Time Lord.' (Even if the only alternative to being a Time Lord was being a soldier, which makes zero sense for a number of reasons.) Of course, Deadly Assassin make it pretty clear with 'We must maintain faith in Time leadership.'

And then at some point after that, the female of the species was born!

(Or...given the existence of Susan...decided to crawl out of purdah, at least.)

Yes because he's still hartnell in this case

CAPALDI seemed uncertain about whether Hartnell was actually a 'he'...

World Enough and Time:

DOCTOR: She was my first friend, always so brilliant, from the first day at the Academy. So fast, so funny. She was my man crush.
BILL: I'm sorry?
DOCTOR: Yeah, I think she was a man back then. I'm fairly sure that I was, too. It was a long time ago, though.

Especially odd given that the Doctor was not yet female in the time they have memories of.

Why, it's almost as if Moffat just liked throwaway lines or something...

Or as if a vague memory of being some female Timeless Children briefly surfaced...

Or as if Time Lords are sort of Nonbinary which they often are seen as such. (And propably Dodo is nonbinary too...)

https://64.media.tumblr.com/d52a4f55ef40cf98305ff7eb857185cb/0db6545f57483998-e4/s1280x1920/1e169beb21b237e6158f7852290746236351c239.png

I'm making no claims about the quality of writing by posting this, but it belongs here.

https://screenrant.com/doctor-who-fans-not-agree-problems-debate/

If anything, it's surprising what they didn't include.

'Doctor Who may be all about educating children and adults alike'

Not since 1966 it isn't...

'The Valeyard is a name familiar only to those who watched the classic Doctor Who'

Nonsense! Wasn't he mentioned in Twice Upon a Time?

'He is supposed to be an amalgamation of the Doctor's darkest traits from between his Twelfth and Thirteenth incarnations, at least according to the Master'

WRONG! The Valeyard was from between the twelfth and FINAL incarnation, according to the Master...

'Doctor Who will return with 60th-anniversary specials this November'

Though we'll have to wait till DECEMBER for two of 'em...*sob*...

If anything, it's surprising what they didn't include

Yeah, how can any such list not involve UNIT Dating...

Nonsense! Wasn't he mentioned in Twice Upon a Time?
Yes, and The Name of the Doctor.

The Valeyard was from between the twelfth and FINAL incarnation
Yep, that one annoyed me too.

Yeah, how can any such list not involve UNIT Dating...
The one I was thinking of.

Interesting.