[Moderator's Note: Moved from the 'Gridlock' section]

Not sure about their work outside of Doctor Who but certainly in Doctor Who RTD beats Moffat, I didn't notice he did until it was pointed out but he always puts a gay referencer in an ep whether it's at all relevant to the plot or not.

Thing about the overacting is the constant screaming over loud music, granted who wouldn't scream when being attacked by giant car eating crabs but it's a good writer who minimises those scenes.

Think we might not get on Emily I am a stanch old series fan and I think RTD has missed the point of Doctor Who with his failure to remotely imagine the future, have a story off of Earth before the second season, ever have a story not involving humans, and constantly dragging the assistants family into it.

I do agree that Doctor Who had to update but take The Parting of The Ways (the season one finale); 200,000 years in the future Daleks invading, epic battle, etc and we had to spend half the episode watching Rose mopeing around with her family. There was no reason to put that in and I doubt that all the kids who were fans of the new series were going "this story is boring lets have some more of Rose's family in it".

"this story is boring lets have some more of Rose's family in it".

Mickey-the-idiot and Jackie sort of grow on you. Mind you, I thought Jackie was fun from the start and once Mickey got over moaning over how Rose loves The Doctor more than him, he was a treat, too.

Still you can't deny that they were put in for the sake of it rather than because they were at all relevent to the plot.

Oh, I don't know. I bet the kids got a kick out of ripping open the heart of the TARDIS with a big, yellow truck.

Not sure about their work outside of Doctor Who but certainly in Doctor Who RTD beats Moffat, I didn't notice he did until it was pointed out but he always puts a gay referencer in an ep whether it's at all relevant to the plot or not.

What do you consider 'relevant to the plot'? For instance, did the use of the word 'she' regarding the partner who abandoned Sky make you think 'Ugg! Gay Agenda Alert!' whereas a 'he' wouldn't have made you think twice?

To be frank, the only time a gay reference felt pointless and unconvincing was in a Moffat script - the otherwise perfect The Doctor Dances. The idea of the butcher risking prison and ruin in order to have The Love That Dares Not Speak Its Name with that ugly middle-aged bully was unconvincing, to put it mildly. Whereas in RTG scripts the gay references just feel so natural. Even the homophobic ones (Rose in Aliens of London, Thomas Kincade Brannigan in Gridlock).

Thing about the overacting is the constant screaming over loud music, granted who wouldn't scream when being attacked by giant car eating crabs but it's a good writer who minimises those scenes.

This is DOCTOR WHO. The screaming is at a perfectly acceptable, nay, necessary level.

Think we might not get on Emily I am a stanch old series fan

Well, obviously I don't even SPEAK to people who like the classic series. Sure, I squandered thirty years of my life on that old thing but I Saw The One True Light by the time Eccy gave us his first 'Fantastic!'...

...Sarcasm aside, I do admire and envy your fidelity. Don't think I don't feel a BIT bad for demoting the previous Joy Of My Life to a mere 'necessary prelude to Russell T Godly Ecstasy'. I'm sure I'll get back into it properly once I've rested it for a few more years - obviously I grossly overwatched them all (well, with the possible exception of the Colin Baker era) during the Sixteen Long And Barren Years.

and I think RTD has missed the point of Doctor Who with his failure to remotely imagine the future

Fair enough.

have a story off of Earth before the second season

Again...fair enough. Just because Season One/Twenty-Seven happens to be the single greatest achievement of the human race doesn't mean that my jaw STILL doesn't drop - nearly five years on - at the thought that IT DOESN'T HAVE A SINGLE ******* ALIEN PLANET IN IT!!!!

ever have a story not involving humans

That's understandable. If you don't have humans you just end up having a) aliens that look and act just like humans (see Voyage of the Damned which, now I mention it, kind of disproves your point...oh, except for Wilf I suppose) or b) The Web Planet *shudders*.

and constantly dragging the assistants family into it.

Even if I didn't happen to love, adore and worship Mickey-the-idiot and Jackie I'd say they were perfectly allowable, as a means of excusing the constant bloody trips to Earth, AND as a means of hooking the soap-opera-obsessed Not We (something vital to the survival of our programme).

Admittedly I wasn't enamored of Martha's much-too-similar-to-the-Tylers family (but then they still managed to be minimally more interesting than Martha herself). By the time Donna produced the THIRD mother of THAT type in a row I would have been outraged, were it not for a) Sylvia's superb performance in Turn Left, and b) Wilf, who made the whole concept of Donna's family so utterly worthwhile (at least until End of Time - for obvious reasons I'm now heartily wishing he'd never been born).

I do agree that Doctor Who had to update but take The Parting of The Ways (the season one finale); 200,000 years in the future Daleks invading, epic battle, etc and we had to spend half the episode watching Rose mopeing around with her family.

It was FIVE MINUTES and that scene in the cafe was one of the greatest scenes EVER.

There was no reason to put that in

So what do you think should have happened instead? The Doctor should have kept Rose with him to die on the Gamestation? She just had a brainwave and nipped into the TARDIS to rip open its console? The whole 'Bad Wolf' thing should be left unexplained?

and I doubt that all the kids who were fans of the new series were going "this story is boring lets have some more of Rose's family in it".

OF COURSE some of Who would go whoosh over the heads of the rug-rats. That's exactly how it should be.

Still you can't deny that they were put in for the sake of it rather than because they were at all relevent to the plot.

Can too deny it. I mean, without either of them, how would Rose have opened up the TARDIS? (Yes, I know the whole Heart of the TARDIS thing was far fetched to begin with.) Certainly nobody owed *her* any favours (like a big yellow truck). Yes, the conversation may have gone on a bit, but at least we got to *see* how Rose reacted to being left behind. Which isn't so with most of the companions. The real question is, if she hadn't been able to get back would she have done as well as say, Sarah Jane?

And we've sort of gone off topic for this episode...

Very true but the old Doctor did manage to defeat the Daleks without the help of a godlike supering so there's no reason why he still couldn't. It wasn't just the scene in the cafe there was the scene before the cafe, Micky trying his car, the bad wolf, big yellow truck etc.

As for the gay references I know it does make me sound like a raging homophobe and me saying most of my best friends are gay/bisexual sounds uber cliched but at the same time he puts them in EVERY episode he writes, not some EVERY and your right a he wouldn't make me think twice but to be honest I think the whole dragging sex and family into the new series is one of it's failings. Take the one with the werewolf, the doctor assumes that the owner of the house was gay because he had some athletic butlers now come on, random connection or what so kind of a flimsy excuse to put it in.

I didn't actually notice it until it was pointed out (less than a month ago) so I'm not sure what that makes me.

There hasn't actually been a single story not involving humans, the old series managed a few with a fraction of the budget so surely the new series could do at least one. As you said the voyage of the damned came close but no cigar.

Btw good on you for liking the ol series but I think too many old series fans are blindly watching and defending the new doctor who because we have nothing else.

I suppose there must be some old series fans who are watching the new one because there's nothing else, but you're the only one I've seen so far. I think the new series is fantastic and wipes the floor with the old, with the possible exception of some of Tom Baker's stories and even they're only "as good" rather than better.

the old Doctor did manage to defeat the Daleks without the help of a godlike supering so there's no reason why he still couldn't.

The Doc never before faced an army of half a million Daleks. (On-screen, anyway. Presumably he faced more in the Time War, but then his solution was to blow up his own planet...) And don't forget this is the Ninth Doctor - he NEVER saves the day, bless him...

It wasn't just the scene in the cafe there was the scene before the cafe, Micky trying his car, the bad wolf, big yellow truck etc.

True, and they weren't quite as wonderful as the cafe scene, but they were still brief and important to the plot. (Plus funny, at least Jackie's request that we DIDN'T ask why the truck-owner owed her a favour...)

As for the gay references I know it does make me sound like a raging homophobe and me saying most of my best friends are gay/bisexual sounds uber cliched but at the same time he puts them in EVERY episode he writes, not some EVERY

I'm absolutely prepared to believe you're not homophobic, but you must be exaggerating about 'every episode'. Offhand I can't think of any gay references in End of the World, World War Three, Long Game (admittedly the Face of Boe being pregnant was rather gender-bending), Christmas Invasion, New Earth, Love & Monsters, Army of Ghosts, Doomsday (honestly, that was an ENTIRELY PLATONIC peck-on-the-forehead the Doctor gave Mickey-the-idiot), Runaway Bride, Smith and Jones, Voyage of the Damned, Partners in Crime, Turn Left, Next Doctor, Planet of the Dead, End of Time Part One.

And several (Boom Town, Bad Wolf, Parting of the Ways, Sound of Drums, Utopia, Stolen Earth, Journey's End, End of Time Part Two) only had gay references (that I remember, anyway - I MUST be missing some) because of Captain Jack. And when RTG designed that particular character he had some (in retrospect, hilarious) line like 'he's omnisexual - he'll shag anything, but I don't think it'll be an issue'. It was MOFFAT who made it an issue...

And for every gay reference in New Who there must be ten heterosexual ones. (Alright, five. Minimum.) Quite possibly RTG, Moffat, and Roberts (in particular) have slightly exaggerated the number of gays in certain eras (just as New Who has quite possibly slightly exaggerated the number of mixed-race relationships in certain eras) but that's understandable. This is the Whoniverse, after all. Who knows what effect those constant alien invasions (and the effort involved in ignoring them) has on the human psyche? Not to mention that we ALL obviously swing both ways deep, deep down, we just aren't liberated enough to admit it until the fifty-first century...

(Having said that, the public gay kiss in the 1940s in Torchwood Season One: Captain Jack Harkness was TOTALLY out of order, but we're talking about Who here.)

to be honest I think the whole dragging sex and family into the new series is one of it's failings.

Yup, I can fully understand that. If you'd told me about HALF the goings-on that would be, er, going on in the new series - particularly in relation to our hitherto devoutly asexual (give or take Susan and an accidental cup of cocoa) hero - I'd have no doubt had fits of screaming hysteria. Having no romance in Who (give or take a few utterly pathetic attempts to excuse a Companion's departure) made perfect sense. Having a Doctor who's obviously in love with his Companion, claims to be capable of 'dancing' and fathering children, yet who repeatedly dumps his beloved in another universe AND abandons her to starve so he can go and, er, dance with French prostitutes - makes no sense whatsoever.

But...you know what...I don't give a ••••. Because it's wonderful. Every moment of Girl in the Fireplace. That heartbreaking farewell scene on Bad Wolf Bay. That unbelievably romantic race into each other's arms that was so brilliantly interrupted by a Dalek. Captain Jack's farewell kisses as he went to his death. River Song's 'You and me...time and space...you watch us run.' Alright, so maybe oral sex with a paving slab is a step too far for an alleged children's programme, and I got as sick as everyone else watching Martha Jones make puppy-eyes at the Doc's so-called tight suits, but...on the whole...PLEASE don't let your preconceived ideas of what Who is about ruin what SHOULD be the happiest time of your life. (I mean, your preconceived ideas happen to be absolutely correct in my opinion, but just bloody IGNORE them, OK?)

Take the one with the werewolf, the doctor assumes that the owner of the house was gay because he had some athletic butlers now come on, random connection or what so kind of a flimsy excuse to put it in.

Ah, now THERE you've got me. Completely forgot my outrage when the Doctor - accompanying Queen Victoria into a BLATANT trap - leapt to ludicrous conclusions about gay orgies. (I'd've been just as outraged if it had been about muscular bald nuns instead, but that's not the point.)

here hasn't actually been a single story not involving humans, the old series managed a few with a fraction of the budget so surely the new series could do at least one. As you said the voyage of the damned came close but no cigar.

Aha, BUT (obviously I've only just thought of this) Wilf was a Companion! And Companions don't count!! Or Old Who wouldn't have managed any non-humans, except for Deadly Assassin...oh, and Full Circle I suppose...where did those slave-traders in Warriors' Gate come from...? Oops, there's Keeper of Traken...Er, anyway, I don't see that it's a big deal whether or not the identical-to-human people we meet on various planets happen to be descended from our particular bunch of apes or not. I still have no idea how human Captain Jack is, come to think of it.

I think the new series is fantastic and wipes the floor with the old, with the possible exception of some of Tom Baker's stories and even they're only "as good" rather than better.

Hear, hear! The old series managed ONE City of Death in TWENTY-SIX YEARS. New Who gives us one every couple of weeks.

Offhand I can't think of any gay references in ..... End of Time Part One.

Did you miss that "hey, hey" look one of Minnie's older friends gave the Doctor when they found him? Looked pretty suggestive to me.

Wilf wasn't a companion back then and the whole episode was set in orbit around Earth with the fate of Earth at stake, out of a ships compliment of hundreds if not thousands only a few aliens survived but that didn't matter because of Earth below.

Come on the old series wasn't that bad, think of the Dalek and cyberman episodes, the Unit stories, The Caves of Androzani, pyramids of Mars, just to name a handful.

I suppose me saying they were in every one (in fact it was only most episodes) was a tiny exaggeration and tbh I haven't re watched many new series episodes so I don't know them well enough to contradict you but don't be surprised if it turns out there are a few in those episodes.

Your right the new doctor never faced half a million Daleks but that's probably why he was never put up against that many, you can't continually write stories that lead up to the point of no escape and then Superman saves the day again.

Basically the problem with this series is that it's supposed to be a continuation when it resembles the original series so badly it would be better as a reboot. Take the new Battlestar Galactica vs old BSG, old series camp happy go lucky space opera, new series dark, edgy, and very intense. Fans of the old derisively nicknamed the new Galactica in name only, which is all the series every tried to be, whilst the new Doctor who tries to pretend to be the continuation, though I suppose after 20 years on hold and totally new people the old fans would never be happy.

I suppose if your a fan of Micky and Jackie you wouldn't mind them being there but their not exactly Doctor Who style. I guess emotion was an important part of the new series, the Caves of Androzani was a powerful episode but it managed to be deep and emotional without a ton of crying and shrieking and carry on.

I suppose there must be some old series fans who are watching the new one because there's nothing else, but you're the only one I've seen so far.

Not so, Mandy, I too watched the original series. In fact, when I started watching Who, David Tennant was probably still in kindergarten. Billie Piper and Freema However-you-spell-her-last-name weren't even born yet. I like the New Series, but Classic Who will always have a special place in my heart.

Danny's main complaint is that they seem to focus a lot of family stuff, something they never did in Classic Who. Well, the reason being is that the role of the Companion, which used to be just someone to ask the Doctor what is going on and run down corridors, has been beefed up. Rose, Martha, and Donna got the kind of character development that poor Sarah, Tegan, Nyssa, and Romana could only dream of getting. Usually when a member of a Companion's family appeared in Classic Who, they were like the poor red shirted Ensign Deadmeats that accompanies Kirk, Spock, and McCoy down to planets, namely cannon fodder.

Also, most of Classic Who's stories were self contained. When the Doctor and Co. were done with an adventure, they were DONE (the Key To Time and Trial Of A Time Lord being the notable exceptions).

This was common back then, however. A lot of science fiction shows like Star Trek, Space: 1999, Lost In Space, the Time Tunnel, Buck Rogers, etc used this format, the one episode story and everyone is happily back on the bridge at the end. The main reason being the networks that aired these shows had the option of airing the episodes in any order they jolly well pleased. With no continuing storylines, they didn't have to worry about stepping all over continity should a network choose to air episodes of a show outside of the production order (meaning the order of the episodes as they were produced).

However, all that began to change in the 1990's, the decade the Doctor sat out (Audio Adventures, Novels, and the Fox telemovie notwithstanding). The decline of the main networks and the rise of cable channels and first run syndication had a big effect on science fiction. New shows such as Babylon Five, Farscape, and the later seasons of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, all syndicated or on speciality channels, began to have story arcs that could last a season, since these outlets always aired the episodes in proper order, unlike the networks of old. Thus these shows changed the rules, and the one episode and it's over thing was suddenly very outmoded (one of the critisms leveled against Star Trek: Voyager was its sticking to this obsolete idea).

Thus when Russell Davies brought Who back in 2005, he realized that the old ways were gone, and he should follow the new guidelines that the 1990's made. So that is what he did. That is why we get these continuing storylines and recurring family characters. RTD was just doing science fiction as it is done now. While it is a big adjustment for oldtime Who fans, such as yours truly, I can live with it.

Basically the problem with this series is that it's supposed to be a continuation when it resembles the original series so badly it would be better as a reboot.

Funny you should say that. When I watched "Rose" in 2005, I thougt it was going to be some Dr Who knock-off that couldn't possibly recapture the feel of the old series (especially after being subjected to that Fox travesty). I was happily surprised when I found I could recognize the Dr Who I remembered from my childhood in it. It was like the old show, only better. Clearly it doesn't work for everyone.

Not so, Mandy, I too watched the original series... [big snip]...RTD was just doing science fiction as it is done now. While it is a big adjustment for oldtime Who fans, such as yours truly, I can live with it.

Uh, that's what I said. Since you say you like the new series too, that still makes Daniel the only one I've seen so far who thinks RTD is going down the wrong road. (Or more accurately, he said he thought old-timers were defending the new series only because they have nothing else to watch and I assumed he meant himself.)

Thing about serials (long running multi episode plot arcs) is that when series's don't have them these days you feel they should. However a series where you travel in both time and space there really shouldn't be much of a long running arc over a series.

As you said they expanded the role of the red shirt, and thats another beef with the new series, there aren't any red shirts, well there are but they have to cry and rave over every single red shirt death whether they're the nicest man in the world or the clone of Hitler.

When I say old Doctor Who fans are watching this because of nothing else, put it this way would you watch it if it wasn't called Doctor Who? Also don't you just wait for the Dalek and Cyberman stories whilst ploughing through the new series's other episodes of varying quality.

As I said the new series did have to update but I'm sure the companion could get some character development without bringing their family in. I mean BSG updated nicely by removing family not dragging it in. Just because it's a family show doesn't mean it has to always have the family in in it. Take Thunderbirds, a kids show about adults doing adult things with few kids in it and those episodes they were in being unpopular amongst the child fans. Then they make a movie where the adults take second stage to a teenage Alan and his mates, and the movie flopped.

When I say old Doctor Who fans are watching this because of nothing else, put it this way would you watch it if it wasn't called Doctor Who?

Calling it Dr Who is certainly what got me in the door, but if it had been lousy I'd have left again. Or perhaps not. I did plough through the sixth and seventh Doctor stories out of a sense of loyalty and they were pretty lousy. Had I stumbled upon the new Who as a brand new concept, I expect I would have watched it, but I don't know for sure. Loyalty is such a tricky thing, isn't it?

Also don't you just wait for the Dalek and Cyberman stories whilst ploughing through the new series's other episodes of varying quality.

Not especially. While they've done a good job recreating the Daleks, I've never been a Cyberman fan. I find them slightly tiresome. Even the Dalek episodes I can take or leave. Substitute another villain and I'd be just as happy, although I have to admit, that first series Dalek comeback was exciting and watching them arguing with the Cybermen was hilarious.

Had I stumbled upon the new Who as a brand new concept, I expect I would have watched it, but I don't know for sure. Loyalty is such a tricky thing, isn't it?

Okay, I actually *did* stumble onto the new Who as a brand new concept. Well, sort of. I *think* I watched some of the original when I was a very wee tyke, but it's sort of foggy. I mean, I'm sure I would remember if I'd seen Tom Baker as a child, who could forget that? Or Sylvester McCoy for that matter.

However, since starting the new Who and loving just about every second of it (even the parts that had me sobbing my eyes out), I decided to watch some of the original Who, where I could find it. And loved that, too.

That said, I didn't have the long and barren years to contend with, nor did I have any preconceptions coming into new Who. But, even if I *had* watched it, I would still have fallen in love with both Eccleston and Tennant. I think the new Who does great job carrying on the name.

Did you miss that "hey, hey" look one of Minnie's older friends gave the Doctor when they found him? Looked pretty suggestive to me.

You're right, of course, cross End of Time Part One off the list...How could I forget?!

(Well, quite easily, actually, given that I'm still squealing in outrage about Minnie pinching the Doctor's bottom...Now THAT sort of thing should be banned. Whereas casting an adoring glance at David Tennant isn't exactly a crime, or if it is, I'm in SERIOUS trouble.)

Wilf wasn't a companion back then

Nonsense! Once a Companion, always a Companion! You might as well try claiming Rose isn't a Companion in End of Time! Or when she got that red bicycle when she was twelve!

and the whole episode was set in orbit around Earth with the fate of Earth at stake

Fair point. There's no denying RTG has an unfortunate attachment to the planet of His birth, to an even greater extent than Old Who did. (Mind you, looks like Moffat will be just as bad.) I get the impression He was over-paranoid about resurrecting all that 'Alien planets on Doctor Who all look like quarries!' stuff that was endlessly thrown in the face of the unfortunate Fan. And making alien planets look like they're NOT quarries comes very expensive indeed, apparently. (Sure, I know Old Who did 'em all the time but the production values were slightly, well, lower in those days. Compare n'contrast, for example, the burning of Rome with the burning of Pompeii...)

Ironically, When RTG FINALLY got round to giving us an alien planet that looked just like a quarry, Utopia was an all-time classic...

out of a ships compliment of hundreds if not thousands only a few aliens survived but that didn't matter because of Earth below.

No one's saying they didn't matter. Voyage wasn't portrayed as having a happy ending, indeed, the Doctor got ludicrously hysterical about his failure to resurrect a boring hussy of a waitress. Plus the Doctor even said 'I'm gonna save your lives and the lives of all six billion people on the planet below' - in that order.

Come on the old series wasn't that bad

Of course it wasn't! It was Doctor Who! The greatest thing in the universe! We just didn't realise how much better it could get...

think of the Dalek and cyberman episodes

You'd better be more specific cos right now I'm thinking Tenth Planet, Wheel in Space, Invasion, Silver Nemesis, Chase, Destiny, Revelation...and I'm NOT feeling happy.

the Unit stories

Well...Inferno and Terror of the Autons are rather good.

The Caves of Androzani

Four episodes of the Bland Doctor running down corridors before he ruins my life by turning into Colin Baker. Sure, it had its moments, but quite how THAT was voted Best Story Ever is beyond me.

pyramids of Mars

Not bad. Bit boring at times, but hey, the Doctor, Sutekh and Scarman are great.

I suppose me saying they were in every one (in fact it was only most episodes) was a tiny exaggeration and tbh I haven't re watched many new series episodes so I don't know them well enough to contradict you but don't be surprised if it turns out there are a few in those episodes.

YOU HAVEN'T REWATCHED MOST OF THE NEW SERIES?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blimey. Well, I suppose that might go some way towards explaining how you can POSSIBLY think Earth has any sight to offer more fair than Eccy, Tennant and RTG strutting their stuff.

You're obviously one of those people who need to watch things at least twice before you 'get' them. I'm frequently like that myself, I mean, I didn't even howl my eyes out during The End of Time Part Two...first time round.

You remember the Bad Old Days when Fans were looked down on as the lowest possible form of life by the rest of the human race...? You remember while the Not We were jeering at the creaky sets and even creakier plots we'd try to claim that Who could be watched on several different levels and they were just missing the point...? Well, obviously we were lying through our teeth THEN, but it's true NOW.

You have GOT to keep watching New Who till you connect with it on SOME level. This will in no way entail 'being unfaithful' to Old Who.

Right. Here's the plan to get you over your ridiculous prejudice:

1. Think of the things you like about the Old Series:

UNIT - So watch Sontaran Stratagem/Poison Sky and Planet of the Dead.

Daleks and Cybermen - OK, so you can work out what to watch for yourself...

Caves - So you enjoy the Doctor sacrificing his life for his Companion? May I recommend Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways and End of Time?

Pyramids - So you like Gabriel Wolf playing the universe's ultimate evil? Go see Impossible Planet/Satan Pit.

2. Think of the things you don't like about the New Series:

Modern-day council estates - see Survival.

Stuck on Earth - see entire Pertwee era.

Companions' mother-obsessions - see entire Ace era.

Sexuality - see Barbara fend off rape in Reign of Terror, Crusades, Keys of Marinus and Romans. See Jo totter round the universe in high heeled boots and mini-skirts being proposed to in Planet of the Daleks, Green Death and Curse of Peladon.

Constant screaming - see anything with Victoria in it, particularly Fury From The Deep.

Failure to remotely imagine the future - see any futuristic 60s story, with particular reference to gender relations...

Godlike superbeings - see Colony in Space, Mutants, Key to Time.

Loud music - see The Sea Devils.

Over-extended regenerative farewells - see Planet of the Spiders (and WEEP)...

Gay references - OK, slight problem here. You'll have to watch Mike Yates check out the electrician-disguised Master's bottom in Terror of the Autons. And watch a few stories with Thals in them - they've GOT to be gay, they've only ever got one female around...

Or, of course, you COULD just watch the whole new series in order, with a pen and paper handy so you can note down all the gay references...

Your right the new doctor never faced half a million Daleks but that's probably why he was never put up against that many, you can't continually write stories that lead up to the point of no escape and then Superman saves the day again.

OK! I'm not denying that RTG has a fondness for overblown finales that paint Our Hero into a corner from which he can only escape by pulling a large lever labeled 'Deus Ex Machina'! I can SEE my Living God has certain flaws, it's just that it's all so fantastically brilliant this just DOESN'T MATTER.

Basically the problem with this series is that it's supposed to be a continuation when it resembles the original series so badly it would be better as a reboot.

EXTERMINATE THE BLASPHEMER! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!

Look...I'm not claiming that Who is one seamless whole - there's all the scar-tissue from the Sixteen Long And Barren Years, there's the fact the New Series wipes the floor with the Old - but it is utterly and undeniably THE SAME SERIES. Just go watch School Reunion! (And then take some blood-pressure-lowering pills over the suggestion that Sarah was in love with the Doctor(s) all along...) Sure, it's evolved, but then the gap is no greater than that between the bescarfed planet-saving jelly-baby-eater and the black-and-white pensioner tottering round trying to smash cavemen's skulls in. Just think of the added emotions, sexuality, scale, production values etc etc as being an extra dimension like when Who went into colour.

though I suppose after 20 years on hold and totally new people the old fans would never be happy.

I was a fanatical Old Fan. And the happy grin hasn't left my face for FIVE YEARS.

I suppose if your a fan of Micky and Jackie you wouldn't mind them being there but their not exactly Doctor Who style.

It was a SERIOUS weakness of Old Who that its Companions tended to be a) ultra-convenient orphans, or b) utter and total gits who never gave a moment's thought to the trauma of the loved ones they left behind (I'm particularly thinking of the otherwise-well-rounded Ian and Barbara, here).

I guess emotion was an important part of the new series, the Caves of Androzani was a powerful episode but it managed to be deep and emotional without a ton of crying and shrieking and carry on.

You really don't define the Doctor smashing a spaceship into a planet while roaring 'I'M NOT GONNA LET YOU STOP ME NOW' as carrying-on...?

thats another beef with the new series, there aren't any red shirts, well there are but they have to cry and rave over every single red shirt death whether they're the nicest man in the world or the clone of Hitler.

That's rather unfair. Sometimes, yes, there is an overreaction (the aforementioned Astrid, though after all, she HAD been formally accepted as a Companion...mind you, so was Arthur the Horse and the Doc abandoned HIM in horse-eating France without a backward glance...) but lots of people's demises don't get MUCH of a reaction - from that git Rattigan to our beloved Harriet Jones Yes We Know Who You Are.

put it this way would you watch it if it wasn't called Doctor Who?

Yes.

And what's more I'd STILL chuck the entirety of Old Who on the bonfire in exchange for five minutes of this bliss.

I thank non-existent deities on a daily basis that it IS Who and so I'm not, technically speaking, being unfaithful to my programme.

Also don't you just wait for the Dalek and Cyberman stories whilst ploughing through the new series's other episodes of varying quality.

Absolutely not. I'm tiring rather of Daleks in grand finales, Rise of the Cybermen/Age of Steel was quite weak (albeit in an enjoyable way) and Daleks in Manhattan/Evolution is a strong contender for the weakest New Who story EVER.

As I said the new series did have to update but I'm sure the companion could get some character development without bringing their family in.

Probably, but when the Noble-Mott and Tyler-Smith families are so utterly fantastic...why bother?

It was like the old show, only better.

THANK you Mandy. I could have saved myself a lot of time if I'd just said that...

Yeah lol had forgotten that they made Yates gay in the novels. As I said before my main beef isn't the gay references but them having to drag sex in. I know they used to use it before IE Jo and Leta are the most blatant examples but it is a kids show at the end of the day.

How can you not like the caves of androzani, the plot was deep the characters developed. I know colin baker is enough to put anyone off a story but still. I will grant you the Doctor's scream of I won't let you stop me now was a bit ott but it was the only time in the story that they did it.

Actually several stories are better the first time round. I loved Dalek the first time but I felt it wasn't so good on the second viewing. Plus remember Dalek was followed by the train wreck that was the long game. And they did do good stories in the new series but so many grind to a halt once the monster is defeated but they still carry on whilst they bang on about the subplot that suddenly takes equal importance to saving the universe. I know that the old companions were convinient orphans but they are in machine that will take them to any corner of the universe they wouldn't be constantly going home.

I know the old series did fail here and there with the future ie sexism lol to the eps where it came up but they did at least try.

but it is a kids show at the end of the day.

I would question that. RTD and others in the press consistently label it a family show. The earlier series (read 1960s here) are obviously targeted at children exclusively, but beginning with Pertwee the stories began to get more sophisticated until you reach today's layered approach that has something for everyone.

Most of Who isn't any more immature or simplistic than, say, "Little House on the Prarie" or "Dukes of Hazard" and they weren't labelled kid's shows (although by today's standards, they're pretty awful).

Don't diss the Dukes os Hazzard it's immense lol. Actually it wasn't originally meant to be a kids show, if you watch the first few episodes it has a far more adult feel to it.

Your right it is a family show but family basically means kids with a tiny bit for adults.

Moving our debate from the Waters of Mars here Emily.

I can see how they shook things off to quickly but take the end of Warriors of the Deep, all the enemy have just been wiped out and the doctor says "there had to be a better way" or something similar that's a pretty good deep not to end on. Not ten minutes of shouting or Rose breaking up with her boyfriend.

The earlier series (read 1960s here) are obviously targeted at children exclusively,

Nope. The early episodes were made by the family drama department and NOT by the children's department. The focus has shifted to giving different weight to 'children' or to 'family' at various times, but DW has always been family entertainment.

Really? I thought I'd read in various places, or maybe heard on the DVDs, that the target age group was 12-14-yr-olds. That's how old I was during the early Tom Baker years and I thought it was great then.

Constant screaming - see anything with Victoria in it, particularly Fury From The Deep.

That would be hard to do, Emily, considering that most, if not all, of the Victoria stories were trashed by the morons running the BBC in the 1970's.


And what's more I'd STILL chuck the entirety of Old Who on the bonfire in exchange for five minutes of this bliss.

Surely not, that is what the BBC morons did, and they can never be forgiven for this crime.


I'm not denying that RTG has a fondness for overblown finales that paint Our Hero into a corner from which he can only escape by pulling a large lever labeled 'Deus Ex Machina'! I can SEE my Living God has certain flaws, it's just that it's all so fantastically brilliant this just DOESN'T MATTER.

Truth be told, I always thought that whole Heart Of TARDIS thing was a huge cop-out, like they had written themselves into a corner and didn't know how to get out of it. Bascially, it was Rose saying "hocus pokus" and making the Daleks go poof!


I can see how they shook things off to quickly but take the end of Warriors of the Deep, all the enemy have just been wiped out and the doctor says "there had to be a better way" or something similar that's a pretty good deep not to end on.

Well, if the Doctor had not been such an anti-human bigot, and continually praising those "wonderful Silurians" and acted sooner, maybe the body count would not have been as high (he was REALLY out of character in this story for some reason). The Silurians were determined to wipe out humanity, no ands, ifs, or buts. There WAS no other way, it was them or us.


it is a kids show at the end of the day

A kid's show!? Have you seen any of the early Tom Baker episodes, or the Eric Saward written ones, like the aforementioned Warriors Of The Deep (bodies piling up). Hardly a kid's show!

the target age group was 12-14-yr-olds.

Family drama can still target certain age groups, and certainly they targeted different ones at different times over the years. They can also target different ages at the same time, as with JNT's oft-quoted 'Something for the dads.'

I don't really follow the Harry Potter series but it's probably a good parallel.

Yeah that Silurian story was quite weak especially as there was a line where the Silurians said "twice we extended the hand of friendship and twice it was rejected". Which wasn't true, the Silurians attacked people until the doc negotiated a truce at which point they murdered their leader and tried to wipe us out. And the sea devils attacked ships until the doc negotiated a truce again but before he could tell the humans the sea devils were sorry they were attacked and again tried to destroy mankind.

Yeah your right the stories were a bit gun happy but those kinds of episodes were once every few months as opposed to every other week.

Re Adric's death being brushed under the carpet, you might not remember or have noticed at the time but Adric was hated by fans, he was their Scrappy Doo, their Wesley Crusher and the cast and crew stopped getting on with him as well so he wasn't exactly missed.

Yeah I guess Harry Potter is a kind of parallel but at least it was all by the same person, the thing as as this isn't the original team, people question these guys right to change an idea they simply inherited.

TV troups sums up our argument quite well, not sure if you know the site but anyway here's there Broken Base article on Doctor Who.

"As is probably inevitable among fans of a very Long Runner with a constant turnover of creators and wide variations in style from season to season, Doctor Who fandom is not so much Broken as splintered into a whole pile of glittering but sharp-edged pieces. Some debates have been running for decades but still raise passions. The Third Doctor, charmingly anti-establishment gentleman hero or arrogant, bigoted, militaristic tool of the Man? Season 17, sparklingly intelligent highpoint of the show as comedy or unfunny, underwritten, over-educated tosh made with contempt for anyone who wasn't at Cambridge with Douglas Adams? John Nathan-Turner, producer who did his best under difficult circumstances or the Devil Incarnate Himself? Colin Baker, bad performance or good performance in bad scripts? Worst Season Ever, 22, 23, or 24? Seasons 25-6, So Bad Its Horrible final nail in the show's coffin or brilliant comeback Screwed By The Network? The 1989-2005 spin-off novels, superb, thoughtfully Darker And Edgier exploration of the full potential of the universe and characters for grown-ups, or dull, pretentious, adolescently Darker And Edgier, Continuity Lockout-prone angst-fest? Do any of the non-TV spin-offs count as canon at all?
And the current generation's ongoing flamewar-prone debates: Rose fans versus Martha fans. And more broadly, everybody else versus the faction of Rose fans who think that her relationship with the Doctor is the single most important plot in the series, and that the forty-odd years of canon before 2005 is just a disposable prologue, and everything after 2006 just time-wasting until the happy ending. The holy wars between those who dislike Russell T Davies' writing and those who like it; between those who believe Russell T Davies is ruining the show and those who point out that without him there wouldn't be a show; and between those who think that RTD puts too much "gayness" in the show and those who think the former are a bunch of homophobes. The furious debates between those who think Steven Moffat will ruin the show forever and those who think he's the Second Coming of [insert favourite creator here] who will redeem it from RTD.
Needless to say, contributing to an online Who fandom venue you aren't familiar with and expecting not to cause Internet Backdraft within thirty minutes is about as sensible as sitting down for a quiet drink with The Pesci and expecting to walk away without bloody violence."

They also say that it's 'Broken Base' is "Probably best exemplified by the fact that a lot of the examples on the relevant Crowning Moment Of Awesome and Wall Banger pages are the exact same thing."

Geez, I'm glad I don't go to other forums then. What a lot of arguing about nothing. It's not like any of these issues have definitive answers anyway, just individual preferences. I'm just happy the show came back at all and that it's so good.

Actually, that's not true. I'm more happy to have a place to pull my favorite show to pieces without being lynched!

Yeah lol had forgotten that they made Yates gay in the novels.

Well, they did in SOME novels (Happy Endings) but made him heterosexual in others (Devil Goblins, I think). On-screen he has a date with Jo (Curse of Peladon), and drools over the 'quite a doll' Chinese woman (Mind of Evil) which makes him approximately the most rabidly heterosexual person in the history of Old Who...if it wasn't for the aforementioned scene with the Master...

How can you not like the caves of androzani, the plot was deep the characters developed.

Oh, I LIKE it. I just don't love, worship and adore it...

I will grant you the Doctor's scream of I won't let you stop me now was a bit ott but it was the only time in the story that they did it.

But that was the best bit! Doctors SHOULD be larger-than-life people with larger-than-life emotions, and this was about the only time the bland young out-of-breath celery-lover achieved this.

Plus remember Dalek was followed by the train wreck that was the long game.

Excuse me! Whilst The Long Game was almost certainly the weakest story of Season One/Twenty-Seven...it was STILL fantastic. In no way did it resemble a train wreck.

And they did do good stories in the new series but so many grind to a halt once the monster is defeated but they still carry on whilst they bang on about the subplot that suddenly takes equal importance to saving the universe.

Which story endings are you objecting to, precisely? The Doctor and Donna having their 'I'm always alright' conversation? Rose demanding chips while the Doctor tells her how Gallifrey burned? Eccy's response to being told Jackie's cooking? Everyone snapping their fingers at Adam? The 'You're not mating with me, sunshine!' scene? Martha's 'It's bigger on the inside' realisation? The Gridlock conversation about Gallifrey? Martha and the Doctor at the Remembrance service? They were all the best bits!!!

I know that the old companions were convinient orphans but they are in machine that will take them to any corner of the universe they wouldn't be constantly going home.

True - and neither would I - but I'm afraid we've got to accept that for financial reasons we'll have an absurd number of Earth-bound stories (something you seem to have no problem with in the Pertwee era), so we might as well thank the Companions for providing an excuse rather than blame them for the situation.

I know the old series did fail here and there with the future ie sexism lol to the eps where it came up but they did at least try.

True. If I was to blame my Living God for anything, THAT would be it - not even TRYING to be futuristic. Given how utterly convinced He was that Season 1/27 would crash and burn, He might as well have gone down fighting...instead of being so scared Who'd get laughed at He accepted defeat on that issue before He even began. (Plus, if He was THAT worried about it dating the way Old Who's futuristic stories rapidly and drastically did...He shouldn't have all those popular culture references, especially the whole Gamestation thing.)

Your right it is a family show but family basically means kids with a tiny bit for adults.

I disagree...I think there's a helluvalot for adults. It's hard to define, but...just read a New Series novel. THEY are for kids (give or take Eyeless, Prisoner of the Daleks, one or two others). And that's the main reason they're so utterly inferior to the programme, which...isn't. It throws in a burping bin or a scary monster to keep the ankle-biters quiet, and avoids showing blood...then it just goes about being the best thing in the universe, and if the rug-rats don't have a clue what's going on, that's their tough luck.

see anything with Victoria in it, particularly Fury From The Deep.

That would be hard to do, Emily, considering that most, if not all, of the Victoria stories were trashed by the morons running the BBC in the 1970's.

Luckily in this case all you have to do is listen...

And what's more I'd STILL chuck the entirety of Old Who on the bonfire in exchange for five minutes of this bliss.

Surely not, that is what the BBC morons did, and they can never be forgiven for this crime.

Of course I would hate to repeat that crime against humanity, but if it comes to a choice between Old and New Who (which of course it won't because they are ONE GLORIOUS WHOLE) then I'm afraid it's curtains for the Nimon, Bandrils and co.

Truth be told, I always thought that whole Heart Of TARDIS thing was a huge cop-out, like they had written themselves into a corner and didn't know how to get out of it. Bascially, it was Rose saying "hocus pokus" and making the Daleks go poof!

*Embarrassed cough* Yes...and when Donna similarly saves the universe by acquiring magical Time Lord powers three years later, THAT isn't the greatest idea in the universe either. Come to that, there was more than a whiff of magic-Time-Lordiness about Last of the Time Lords...ah well, as RTG Himself says, 'I think those drugs went deeper into my head than I ever realised.'

Well, if the Doctor had not been such an anti-human bigot, and continually praising those "wonderful Silurians" and acted sooner, maybe the body count would not have been as high

Hear, hear!

Re Adric's death being brushed under the carpet, you might not remember or have noticed at the time but Adric was hated by fans, he was their Scrappy Doo, their Wesley Crusher and the cast and crew stopped getting on with him as well so he wasn't exactly missed.

He was by ME! It took me a decade to notice that Everyone Hated Adric, and another decade to realise WHY.

And the current generation's ongoing flamewar-prone debates: Rose fans versus Martha fans.

I love the examples of Old Series flamewars, but surely THIS disagreement would be way, WAY too one-sided to be considered a war...?

Needless to say, contributing to an online Who fandom venue you aren't familiar with and expecting not to cause Internet Backdraft within thirty minutes is about as sensible as sitting down for a quiet drink with The Pesci and expecting to walk away without bloody violence."

Now THAT'S real wisdom. Not that I have a clue what The Pesci are, but when I nipped onto Gallifrey Base for a moment to give a truthful answer to the question 'Do you like your least favorite Doctor?' I then had to spend the next week justifying myself to all and sundry...

They also say that it's 'Broken Base' is "Probably best exemplified by the fact that a lot of the examples on the relevant Crowning Moment Of Awesome and Wall Banger pages are the exact same thing."

Ha ha ha ha ha!

I'm just happy the show came back at all and that it's so good.

Actually, that's not true. I'm more happy to have a place to pull my favorite show to pieces without being lynched!

You're SERIOUSLY more happy about the existence of Nitcentral than the new series?

Wow. No offence to you lot, but you can guess what would happen if it came to a choice between you and five minutes of New Who-y goodness...

You're SERIOUSLY more happy about the existence of Nitcentral than the new series?

In a way. I hadn't realized what we do is somewhat atypical until I was watching one of the new Star Wars movies with my cousin's family. I started making comments about the plot holes and they all told me to shut up.

I remember how surprised I was to find Phil's "Nitpicker's Guide to Star Trek" and realized others do this, too. I don't think most people understand how pulling a show to bits can make it more fun. Then again, how you can watch either ST or DW and pretend not to see the glaring plot holes or wobbly sets is pretty bizarre, too.

but if it comes to a choice between Old and New Who (which of course it won't because they are ONE GLORIOUS WHOLE) then I'm afraid it's curtains for the Nimon, Bandrils and co

Okay, but if ANYONE tries to destroy a single Nyssa episode, I'll fight them to the death!!

Seriously, as I have stated elsewhere here, one thing that has bugged me about the New Series is this romance mush between the Doctor and his Companions. A line that was NEVER crossed in Classic Who (despite RTD's revisionist attempts to suggest that Sarah Jane saw the Doctor as more that just a friend, sorry, I was there, I saw those episodes, and I'm not buying it). And don't even get me started on Girl In The Fireplace, in which the Doctor goes so ga-ga for Madame Poopie-Doo that he is ready to leave his Companions to die on that space station! No hanky-panky in the TARDIS!!

Also, all these references to gays on Who, I'm suprised no one mention Unicorn And The Wasp, in which the son was gay. When the son died, they should have had the father say "I loved my dead gay son." One again, you had to have seen the movie "Heathers" to understand this reference. At least this episode treated it the way it should have been treated, kept behind closed doors. on the other hand, our Captain Jack and the real one snogging in 1941 was totally unbelieveable. That simply wasn't done back then!

Of course, you want gays and lesbians, watch Torchwood! It seems you have to be either gay or bisexual just to get into that organization!

I think the worst offender in regard to the plot keeping going was the end of Voyage of the Damned, the Earth and ship was saved Kylie (forgot the characters name) was dead but then they had to near resurrect her. I mean it was in no way relevant to the plot but they still did it. There is also the end of the end of time, I mean I know Tennant is brilliant and his eps were better than Eccy's but still he was not the beast doctor ever so why does he get this grand epilogue as I said even my new series loving tennat adoring sister noticed it goign on.


Also don't remind me of Adams fate that annoyed me intensely, he'd get found out in an instant, the chances of damaging history are immense, I mean not only has he got to live with no one ever clicking their fingers or being x rayed but he also has to be not dug up for 200,000 years. The whole story including the ending was just gah!!.

I know that they need to do budget saving episodes but back in the day they managed to do alien planets weekly despite a tiny budget and little of the technology we use today, as has been shown the new series don't spend money on futuristic props or costumes so a few less special effects and they could afford a few sets. That one in the bus was probably cheap to do but it was still futuristic.

Yeah I'm with you Tim on the romance angle being the biggest issue, if Rose and Martha or indeed most of the new characters weren't fawning over the Doctor or their significant other which was written onto the episode most of my complaints about the new series wouldn't exist.

As you said Emily their reactions are pretty realistic react as they did if I was in half the situations in the new series but that's why you don't write those scenes in constantly. I mean if I was writing a comedy show I wouldn't have characters dying. Take MASH, it was a comedy show that originally only rarely had a sad ending the death of colonel Blake being the most shocking example but then the series kind of lost it's way and went very preachy and the comedy because a subplot. This is sort of what happened to doctor who they always write in married characters and friends who would of course flip if their mates were killed. The point is you don't always need to write that in. Take 42 there's no way the freighters owners would be husband and wife. How many family freighters are there on Earth now?

BTW whilst I'm the only one here who is a new series hater there there are only 3 or 4 of us arguing over it lol.

our Captain Jack and the real one snogging in 1941 was totally unbelieveable. That simply wasn't done back then!

To be fair, Jack wasn't from "back then" so I imagine he didn't give it much thought. Never mind the poor real Capt Jack who got lynched afterwards!

Kylie (forgot the characters name) was dead but then they had to near resurrect her

Yes, that was unnecessarily sappy and did weaken the ending. It didn't even make sense either. What is she now, a semi-sentient cloud?

That one in the bus was probably cheap to do but it was still futuristic.

I think the making-of commentary said it was actually very expensive. They did buy and wreck 2 buses after all and there was a lot of CGI, not to mention bringing the whole production team around the world.

Midnight, oddly enough, was quite expensive too, but that was because of having all 8 actors on set for 2 full weeks. I thought it managed to feel futuristic though, if only because of the exterior shots, which probably were quite cheap as they were just pictures.

Take 42 there's no way the freighters owners would be husband and wife.

Given the realities of space travel, I think it very likely entire families would crew one ship.

BTW whilst I'm the only one here who is a new series hater there there are only 3 or 4 of us arguing over it lol.

Presumably you're not actually a hater or you wouldn't watch it at all! You're a "disappointed fan."

No I didn't mean that bus I menat the one with the woman who kept repeating everything, that one in the future on the alien planet.

The reality of space travel might need families crewing ships but in sci fi it's less liekly, especially as they obviously put in dock a fair bit.

Your right i'm just a dissapointed fan not a hater lol.

Jack snogging the bloke is probably what kicked off the whole gay adgenda accusation, it's not just the future where RTD writes the chracters as modern it's the past as well. Take the one with the face stealer, the Dad was a man of his time as was the woman so there's no way she'd kick him out or be able to.

As for the random gay references in other writers episodes IE the Doctor dances, preasure from above anyone? Jack was probably an RTD creation as opposed to Moffet so he would have a say in any scene involving him.

I hadn't realized what we do is somewhat atypical until I was watching one of the new Star Wars movies with my cousin's family. I started making comments about the plot holes and they all told me to shut up.

My god, what philistines! (Still...Star Wars. What can you expect? At least with Who we can always quote Tom's 'A scientist's job is to ask questions!' (Alright, so I'm about as far from being a scientist as humanly possible, but the point is, Who punctures pomposity and encourages people to expand their minds...))

I don't think most people understand how pulling a show to bits can make it more fun.

I can kind-of understand the mentality that avoids Confidentials on the grounds they 'spoil the magic', and can see applying that logic to criticism too...but frankly if you're gonna dedicate your LIFE to a programme (especially one that goes and DIES for SIXTEEN YEARS) you've gotta look past the surface...and Who is BEGGING to be nitpicked (sometimes I think RTG deliberately goes unnecessarily and insanely far just to tease us...that cure-all scene in New Earth, for example...).

(Plus, I was born a nitpicker. When I was four Mum taught me to read with 'Peter and Jane' books and all I did was complain that Peter got all the interesting stuff to do, and Jane got the washing-up (I was also born a feminist).)

And it's not as if ripping each episode into tiny pieces stops you loving OR believing every moment. You just need to develop an Orwellian double-think mentality. (And if I wasn't born with that, it was soon inculcated, thanks to the Catholic upbringing (not that my Catholicism survived my nitpicking OR my feminism for long).)

Then again, how you can watch either ST or DW and pretend not to see the glaring plot holes or wobbly sets is pretty bizarre, too.

Well, being totally unvisual enabled me to miss the wobbly sets for decades...unfortunately I have friends who are prepared to sit me down and keep playing bits of video/DVD to me until I notice Sutekh's hand etc...

The plot holes are a different matter, of course. How do the Plot-Hole-Deniers expect us to pass those empty weeks (and sometimes decades) between episodes without...er...exploring the plot-holes? It's not as if we're entirely destructive, Fans also frequently come up with excuses to plug said gaping holes (even if some of 'em - I'm thinking Season 6B - should never have been canonised).

Okay, but if ANYONE tries to destroy a single Nyssa episode, I'll fight them to the death!!

Choose your weapons.

I share your pain (well, not so much about Nyssa...more about my darling Tom who I've totally betrayed) but if it comes to a choice between Old and New...there IS no choice. There hasn't been since 'Rose'.

Seriously, as I have stated elsewhere here, one thing that has bugged me about the New Series is this romance mush between the Doctor and his Companions.

Only ONE of his Companions. Martha was deluded, Donna was a Best Friend, and Jack knew he never stood a chance.

So it's just Nine/Ten and Rose. And yes, as I've made it clear, I HATE the idea. And it makes no logical sense. (Plus it's seriously off-colour - a human teenager and a nine-hundred-year-old Time Lord. He might as well fall for the Pig in Aliens of London.) But that relationship was at the heart of New Who - and of everything that makes New Who the raison d'etre of the human race.

A line that was NEVER crossed in Classic Who

Yeah...watched The Green Death recently?

(despite RTD's revisionist attempts to suggest that Sarah Jane saw the Doctor as more that just a friend, sorry, I was there, I saw those episodes, and I'm not buying it).

Even I'm not buying it. Especially after The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith proved she could get over the Love Of Her Life in two minutes flat rather than thirty years...

And don't even get me started on Girl In The Fireplace, in which the Doctor goes so ga-ga for Madame Poopie-Doo that he is ready to leave his Companions to die on that space station! No hanky-panky in the TARDIS!!

You are, of course, totally correct in every way.

Which makes it INFURIATING that The Girl in the Fireplace is a strong contender for Best Episode Of Doctor Who EVER EVER EVER. (Obviously it always falls to Gridlock at the final fence, but then Gridlock CHEATS, with all those kittens...)

Also, all these references to gays on Who, I'm suprised no one mention Unicorn And The Wasp, in which the son was gay. When the son died, they should have had the father say "I loved my dead gay son." One again, you had to have seen the movie "Heathers" to understand this reference. At least this episode treated it the way it should have been treated, kept behind closed doors.

Actually I found it slightly too overt...the servant-lover chipping into the conversation (even with 'You're so right, sir' or some such sycophancy) felt a bit off, and the father loudly proclaiming that it was 'highly unlikely' his son would produce any kids felt wrong. Not that I'm an expert on that period of history.

on the other hand, our Captain Jack and the real one snogging in 1941 was totally unbelieveable. That simply wasn't done back then!

Absolutely. But WHO never crossed that line...

Of course, you want gays and lesbians, watch Torchwood! It seems you have to be either gay or bisexual just to get into that organization!

Nonsense! Gwen was extremely heterosexual (that snog with an alien-sex-monster wasn't anything to do with her own inclinations). Owen was extremely heterosexual (give or take his initial scene where he apparently rapes a woman AND a man...) And Ianto wasn't gay...at first...

I think the worst offender in regard to the plot keeping going was the end of Voyage of the Damned, the Earth and ship was saved Kylie (forgot the characters name) was dead but then they had to near resurrect her. I mean it was in no way relevant to the plot but they still did it.

I too thoroughly disliked that (especially the necrophiliac snog) but it WAS relevant to the overall character-arc of the Tenth Doctor - i.e. he was becoming a monster who thought he could decide who lived or died...

There is also the end of the end of time, I mean I know Tennant is brilliant and his eps were better than Eccy's

They bloody were NOT! Eccy didn't have a single dud! Whereas poor Tennant got stuck with about a third of his stories NOT being the greatest things since we crawled out of the primordial slime!

but still he was not the beast doctor ever

Assuming you mean 'best'...

He SO was!

Obviously Eccy was too, but...Tennant was the more popular of the two - entirely Eccy's fault for betraying n'abandoning us so soon, of course...

so why does he get this grand epilogue

Just reading my way through The Writer's Tale: The Final Chapter and got to this bit:

'David's. Last. Story. That is HUGE! I mean, it's huge for the fans, but I keep getting hit by the greater perspective, that this is a world-class actor at the top of his game, about to leave one of his defining roles, a role that is loved, absolutely loved, by millions and millions of people. That is such a responsibility. This isn't any old regeneration. This is a cultural event.'

Also don't remind me of Adams fate that annoyed me intensely, he'd get found out in an instant, the chances of damaging history are immense

I don't think so. How many people have clicked their fingers in your vicinity recently...? Of course, the Doc COULD have left him stranded on Satellite 5, but that would have been a bit mean...

he also has to be not dug up for 200,000 years.

Not necessarily. Cremations are quite popular, and anyway, if someone DID dig him up, they wouldn't rewrite the entire history of the early-twentieth-century, they'd yawn and say 'Oh, so he encountered some aliens...'

The whole story including the ending was just gah!!

Frankly I could have lived without Adam myself (except that poor Chris n'Billie were desperate for a rest) but that ending was hilarious! I didn't think it was POSSIBLE for a Who episode to successfully end on a note of hilarity (I'm thinking Inferno) but of course RTG pulled it off beautifully!

I know that they need to do budget saving episodes but back in the day they managed to do alien planets weekly despite a tiny budget and little of the technology we use today

Yes. And the memories of such episodes are one of the main reasons we had to live without Who for The Sixteen Long And Barren Years Of Despair.

OF COURSE the human race should be able to live without special effects and use a bit of bloody IMAGINATION and love Who for what it IS, but...the human race is a bunch of gits. RTG was over-cautious but He had good reasons for being so.

if Rose and Martha or indeed most of the new characters weren't fawning over the Doctor or their significant other which was written onto the episode most of my complaints about the new series wouldn't exist.

BUT this would give rise to another, more serious, complaint: How the hell could anyone NOT be in love with Eccy or Tennant? HOW THE HELL?????????????????????????????

To be fair, Jack wasn't from "back then" so I imagine he didn't give it much thought.

He did live through the entire twentieth-century, though. In fact, there were about half-a-dozen of him in the 1940s...he should have been a LOT more aware of the local hang-ups.

Never mind the poor real Capt Jack who got lynched afterwards!

He didn't get LYNCHED exactly, he just...er...happened to die the following day...;)

Kylie (forgot the characters name) was dead but then they had to near resurrect her

Yes, that was unnecessarily sappy and did weaken the ending. It didn't even make sense either. What is she now, a semi-sentient cloud?

Yup. And this is supposed to be better than death HOW, exactly? Call me prejudiced by my own rabidly pro-euthanasia stance, but...whatever happened to the Doc's 'Everything has its time, and everything dies' stance? Obviously this shouldn't apply to HIM, but it bloody SHOULD to Astrid and Ursula...

I think the making-of commentary said it was actually very expensive. They did buy and wreck 2 buses after all and there was a lot of CGI, not to mention bringing the whole production team around the world.

Yes - it was crazy polluting the planet to hideously expensively trek all the way to that filthy dictatorship just to get some sand...(See YouTube: The Scottish Falsetto Sock Puppets: Planet of the Dead' for the DEFINITIVE view on this...)

Midnight, oddly enough, was quite expensive too, but that was because of having all 8 actors on set for 2 full weeks. I thought it managed to feel futuristic though, if only because of the exterior shots, which probably were quite cheap as they were just pictures.

Whereas I felt Midnight's gender politics were distinctly...old-fashioned.

Take 42 there's no way the freighters owners would be husband and wife.

Given the realities of space travel, I think it very likely entire families would crew one ship.

Hear, hear. Kath travelled the universe. The only way she'd acquire a long-term relationship would be to get together with a crew member. Made perfect sense.

BTW whilst I'm the only one here who is a new series hater there there are only 3 or 4 of us arguing over it lol.

Presumably you're not actually a hater or you wouldn't watch it at all! You're a "disappointed fan."

Yes - you can't SERIOUSLY hate the new series the way I hate the Colin Baker era...? I don't see how that would be physically POSSIBLE...?

The reality of space travel might need families crewing ships but in sci fi it's less liekly, especially as they obviously put in dock a fair bit.

But the whole point of RTG introducing *shudders* sex into Who is that it DOES reflect reality.

it's not just the future where RTD writes the chracters as modern it's the past as well. Take the one with the face stealer, the Dad was a man of his time as was the woman so there's no way she'd kick him out or be able to.

Actually I think she WOULD have been able to do so, especially as her mother owned the house. Mr Connelly had, after all, caused poor old Granny - and numerous neighbours - to be dragged away in a manner befitting Stalin's Russia. And LOADS of marriages broke up during the war - this one just took a little longer than most to disintegrate.

As for the random gay references in other writers episodes IE the Doctor dances, preasure from above anyone? Jack was probably an RTD creation as opposed to Moffet so he would have a say in any scene involving him.

RTG did invent our Captain, but, as I mentioned, He thought Jack's omnisexuality wouldn't be a big deal. He also NEVER interfered with ONE WORD of a Moffat script, as The Writer's Tale made clear.

True he might never have interfered but eh would have said to Moffet this guy is omnisexual show it, so Moffat was thinking how can I put that in a 1940s story so he did the best he could.

They did cart off the people to help them I mean you can't have faceless people wandering around the neighbour hood. Plus the woman would be instantly shunned (I know that used to happen) for divorcing him, I mean who's going to believe her when she says he called the fascists for her grandma to be carted off by the police because her face had been nicked.

I'm all for making a point with sci fi but the points are long made and they were rather jarringly inserted. Plus wahoo she's kicked out her husband it's 1950 no one will employ her and he's clearly not well off enough to support a house for himself and the family (he also has no legal obligation to either). I'm not saying that she shouldn't kick him out but divorce was REALLY frowned on back then.

I see your point that the captain and crew probably would hook up but they rarely go to anywhere where people are just colleagues. There is a lot of sex and relationships around but even during my sexually charged uni years we did manage to make it through days without bringing up sex or significant others.

As for Adam even if he was cremated that chip was from the year 200,000 would anything we have even scratch it? The point of it being found wouldn't be the rewrite of history they'd say yawn he encountered an alien, hang on it's only the year 10,000 this chip is really fancy lets use it, bye bye timeline. As for the clicking my sister clicks her fingers a fair bit, they do it on TV a LOT. Think of Q on Star Trek. He could also never need to have an x ray or MRI or go on a plane, these new naked scanners and metal detectors would see it in an instant, there are just too many ways that you can get found out. The Doc was either condemning him to death or totally destroying his life, not just being normal or average, but no friends, no family no human contact, and I don't care what he did that is wrong. He's always trying to save davros the Hitler of the galaxy from death but he felt what he did to Adam was ok?

Eccy might not have been a bad actor but I felt he just wasn't the doctor, he blended into a crowd, something the doctor never did. Tennant's new personality is another beef I had, the doc has always shunned from power then suddenly out of the blue he decides he's got the power of life and death?

What happened to doctor who is what happened to James Bond, they adapted it, made it different, made characters flawed removed half of the best loved parts of it and so brought in a ton of new fans whilst alienating the old. Not sure if you like the new James Bond but many of my friends said of it, "didn't like any James Bond loved this one though" you've therefore either made something amazing or changed it so much it's not James Bond anymore. When future generations look back at James Bond they'll view the old as timeless classics but the new will be "the ones where they made it all modern that we don't like anymore because it's dated now" the new Dr Who will probably suffer from that too.

No I didn't mean that bus I menat the one with the woman who kept repeating everything, that one in the future on the alien planet.

That would be Midnight, the other one I said wasn't cheap.

Plus the woman would be instantly shunned (I know that used to happen) for divorcing him

That does seem likely. She might have gotten away with kicking him out, but not divorce. And what did she tell the neighbors? Legally she didn't have a reason for denying her husband shelter. It's not like he had an affair or anything.

Eccy might not have been a bad actor but I felt he just wasn't the doctor

I also found him just slightly off as the Doctor. His gaiety was too forced (although his serious scenes were great). Of course, I didn't realize this until the next one showed up!

the doc has always shunned from power then suddenly out of the blue he decides he's got the power of life and death?

Well, I wouldn't have called it out of the blue. They did spend the whole episode building up to it and it was pretty short-lived.

the new will be "the ones where they made it all modern that we don't like anymore because it's dated now" the new Dr Who will probably suffer from that too.

Good lord, it's hard to imagine anything more dated than old Who! Everything gets dated; that's why we stop watching it. If you're lucky, your favorite show reinvents itself (Star Trek comes to mind). If not, it's over.

Star Trek did a pretty good job of reinventing itself but there seems to be anything now that if you make anything it HAS to be darker and edgier and whilst that can work if you make a whole new series it doesn't always work if it's a continuation.

Star Trek reinvented itself by having several TNG episodes that were very similar to the original series for a lot of the first season to ease people in. Same with DS9 and Enterprise, they both had dark plots near the end but spent a few seasons easing people in. Doctor Who never exactly bothered easing in the old fans t went full on new age from the start. Plus the doctor is the same person as he always was, i know personalities change but you don't have 7 regenerations of one kind and suddenly get darker and edgier.

I mean who's going to believe her when she says he called the fascists for her grandma to be carted off by the police because her face had been nicked.

Yes, but he called the police on all of the other neighbours, too. I mean that some of them may have held a grudge and she may have done him a favour, sending him away. So maybe she *didn't* divorce him, just gave him something to think about. Who knows?

BUT this would give rise to another, more serious, complaint: How the hell could anyone NOT be in love with Eccy or Tennant? HOW THE HELL?????????????????????????????

Hear hear! Even if you start with Tennant(like I did) and then see Eccy, it's hard to decide which was better. And it's very possible that if Eccy hadn't betrayed and abandoned us, he might rate being my favourite Doctor.

His gaiety was too forced (although his serious scenes were great). Of course, I didn't realize this until the next one showed up!

How can you say that? How was his 'Everybody lives!' forced? Or when Jack proved Rose was still alive? I thought he did a magnificent job of bouncing back and forth from serious to happy.

Frankly I could have lived without Adam myself

I just thought he was pointless. And an idiot. They should have taken Goddard with them. *She* would have been fun.

Everything gets dated; that's why we stop watching it.

Or why we go buy it on DVD. For nostalgic purposes.

i know personalities change but you don't have 7 regenerations of one kind and suddenly get darker and edgier.

Not true. I mean, wouldn't you be a bit darker and edgier if you killed *your whole race*? I'd think something like that would definately change a person's personality. Not only that, even if he hadn't been the one to kill everyone, fighting in any kind of war is bound to change you. Especially with this 'Skaro Degradation, The Nightmare Child, Could have been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Neverweres' that's bound to give you a new outlook on life.

Given the realities of space travel, I think it very likely entire families would crew one ship.

Star Trek Enterprise dealt with this idea. They had space boomers, cargo ships run by whole families. Because cargo runs could take a long time, almost a year to get from one planet to another, they had families living on cargo ships, children being born there. The navigator on Enterprise, Travis Mayweather, grew up on a cargo ship. He only left when he joined Starfleet.


Which makes it INFURIATING that The Girl in the Fireplace is a strong contender for Best Episode Of Doctor Who EVER EVER EVER

Best Episode Ever!? BWA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA This is a joke, right?? The Doctor becomes a love sorn sap and some people think this is the best? God, what do they think is the worst?

Never mind the poor real Capt Jack who got lynched afterwards!

He didn't get LYNCHED exactly, he just...er...happened to die the following day...;)

Which means "our" Captain Jack either didn't give a rip, or he thought that since this guy was doomed anyway, what the hell? Never mind that this could destroy the reputation of the "real" Jack Harkness. Gays were not tolorated in the military back then, they were abhorred. Thankfully, we have moved out of the Dark Ages (despite those like Pat Robertson who would like to send us back there).


Eccy didn't have a single dud! Whereas poor Tennant got stuck with about a third of his stories NOT being the greatest things since we crawled out of the primordial slime!

The reason for that is because:

1. Eccy stayed for a far less time than Tennant did, so he didn't make as many stories.

2. He had a run of good luck on the scripts. Sometimes script writing can make or break an era. Colin Baker had the mistfortune to arrive on the show at a time when the writing was not up to par, so his ere suffered. Had he been on Who at a time of better writing, maybe his stories would be better received now. The Audios seem to prove that Mr. Baker can be a good Doctor if given a good script.


Whereas I felt Midnight's gender politics were distinctly...old-fashioned

That was the least of this turkey's problems. This story made no sense at all. You may as well have put a sign that said FILL IN EPISODE at the beginnging of it.


Frankly I could have lived without Adam myself

I just thought he was pointless. And an idiot.

Yeah, he reminded me, and a lot of others, it seems of Adric. Whose idea was it to bring Adric The Second on anyway?


If you're lucky, your favorite show reinvents itself (Star Trek comes to mind). If not, it's over.

As I said above, that is why RTD couldn't just bring back Who as it had been in 1989. Just as John Nathan-Turner had to bring Who into the 1980's, RTD had to bring it into the 21st Century. That meant changes.

As for the issue of families for the Companions, the old series really never dealt with them much. A tally of family members of Companions.

Victoria's father: Dead. Leela's father: Dead. Adric's brother: Dead. Nyssa's father: Dead. Tegan's aunt: Dead.

In every case, by the time said Companion joined the Doctor, the family members we had been introduced to were dead (exceptions are Tegan's grandfather and Turlough's brother, although he appeared in the story where Turlough left).

Since the New Series had beefed up the Companion role, they had to fill in the spaces that had been left blank in Classic Who, and that meant families.

I may not agree with all the changes that RTD made, but they were necessary to bring Who back. The old formula would simply not work in the 21st Century.

---
In every case, by the time said Companion joined the Doctor, the family members we had been introduced to were dead (exceptions are Tegan's grandfather and Turlough's brother, although he appeared in the story where Turlough left).
---
Peri's step-father survived Planet of Fire, didn't he?
And there was Sarah-Jane's aunt in K9 and Company.

But, most of the companions in the old series were basically independant and didn't really need their families (so they could go travelling with the Doctor without it being seen they were abandoning their responsibilities) - whilst the family dynamics in the new series I suppose is meant to show the Doctor's loneliness in even sharper contrast (they all have families, he's got nothing).

It's also that the old series very rarely went back to the companions home time/place (only exception that leaps out is the Time Flight-Arc of Infinity duology), so any familiy members were just guest stars of the week - the new series is constantly taking the companions back home for whatever reason, meaning their families get much more development.

There is also the fact that most of the Original characters were considerably older than the current companions. They were all very late 20s at the youngest, whilst the current lot except Donna are late teens early 20s. Chances are they would see their family more often but that begs the question why? it might b believable that these characters always go home because that's how their written but why write them like that.

Also Eccy having no bad stories? pull the other one.

Rose, an ok episode but we have to put with Rose's family.

The end of the world, an ok/pretty good episode.

The unquiet dead, quite good.

The Aliens of London, World War 3. Not a bad episode but Rose's family takes center stage and the plot of the end of the world takes back seat.

Dalek, very good.

The Long Game, less said the better.

Fathers day ditto, belive it or not I'm not terribly interested in Rose's family history or these kinds of stories.

The Empty Child/ The Doctor Dances, pretty good but again, the world is about to be zombified and we waste a good 20 mins of episode watching Rose get off with Jack and the Doctor.

Boom Town, ok I guess but full of plot holes, also again the destruction of cardiff and the capture of the Slitheen takes a back seat to Rose and Micky.

Bad Wolf, pretty good, can't really remember it, but again futuristic not.

The Long Game, the half spent in the year 200,000 was pretty good but we had to spend half of it with Rose and Micky, also at the end we think the Daleks will finally exterminate the Doctor, we knew he was going to regenerate and after all this time the Daleks almost deserve to, like the Coyote catching the Road Runner but instead of a Dalek Blast he regenerates after kissing Rose.

Now whilst none of these are a Fear Her or a Love And Monsters, or an Idiots lantern he has very few full on good ones.

Your right Amanda about his gaiety being forced that was his main weakness, the Doctors gaiety is basically the point of him.

Ok the show had to update but that doesn't mean sacrificing most of it to be new, I doubt the kids would really have not watched if anyone's family hadn't been in it, they could still have been modern without them.

Also why did they have to Wipe out the Timelords, the Doc doesn't need to have emotional baggage to drag up every 5 minutes. I appreciate it had to change and several ok some old stories suffered from wooden acting or dragged on but new age doesn't mean everyone has to be a seriously flawed character.

Whilst the neighbours might hold a grudge about their loved ones being taken they might A not belive the woman when she told them it was her husband calling the police, B have called the authorities themselves in the hope of helping their loved ones, and C not all of them would have been affected by it and if you didn't see something like that, no way would you believe it.

In my world out of the blue means cropping up in a single episode after 40 years of denying power, they didn't even spend the whole ep building up to it, he was trying to avoid it for most of it. Like that woman going from "help me" to shooting her self, and not just after ten minutes of our (episode) time, ten minutes of in universe time was well. I should also point out that I have a grudge against the Waters of Mars (I saw a bit of the last episode as my sister turned it on in a room I was in, enough of it for me to know about the extended epilogue) as it was the straw that broke the camels back, I didn't watch the End of Time because I thought the Waters of Mars was so bad, I gave up on RTD and am reserving judgement on giving up until I see what Moffet does with it.

How can you say that? How was his 'Everybody lives!' forced?

Yuk. That scene really grated on me. Acting is a matter of taste, I suppose. You'll have some people saying Tennant is one of the best actors of his generation, while others consider him an overacting ham who ruined DW. Eccy just didn't work as well for me as the Doctor as his successor.

The unquiet dead, quite good.

You think so? I'd have tagged it as the worst new Who story of all.

I didn't watch the End of Time

You probably ought to at least watch it. DW likes to reference itself and you might miss out later on if you don't know what happened. And it was better than Mars, although there was A LOT of family stuff in it so you may not think so.

They were all very late 20s at the youngest

Nyssa and Adric were teenagers when they came aboard the TARDIS.

Well the inquiry dead was the first story to lack Roses family and whilst it wasn't brilliant I felt it was a bit more like classic who.

And true adric and Nyssa were teens but they were the exception rather than the norm like Donna.

As for End of Time references I read the wikipedia article so I'm relatively sorted for future references.

Even the show itself dismissed Eccy remember the comments on him in Journeys end.

Susan was fifteen, and Dodo was also a teenager.

I believe Ace was also in her late teens when she joined the Doctor.

Vicki, Jamie, Victoria & Zoe (& mayme Turlough) were all in their teens.

So we had quite a few teens on Classic Who.

Are you sure Jamie was teenage? Ok here's a list of those who weren't teenage.

Barbara
Ian
Steven
Katarina?
Sara Kingdom
Polly
Ben
Liz
Jo
Sarah Jane Smith
Harry Sullivan
Leela
K9
Romana
Romana's regeneration
Tegan
Peri
Mel

Mostly adult unlike the new series which has had one 19 year old, Rose, one possible teen or ver early 20s, Martha, and a 30 something, Donna. I'm also not counting any of the one off tagalongs as companions, Micky, Jack, Adam, or any one off from the christmas specials are not companions whatever wikipedia has to say on the subject. Also even though some of the original companions were young they would stay for years whilst the new series burns through their companions far quicker. And despite them all being relatively young and presumably having a family we managed to avoid meeting them them back every week. I know with the exception of Ace the companions couldn't go home due to the Tardis being unsteerable, not knowing where home was, home being destroyed etc but still.

Also aren't none of you are hoping that the next companion might not have a family as the show family has become increasingly formulaic, angry mother, more supportive male character, me wanting Daleks to exterminate said mother character. The same each time.

BTW your right it does get good viewing figures but many of them are teen or 20 something girls watching it because "oh David Tennant you're so totally dreamy, oh please marry me David Tennant, oh David Tennant please let me play with your sonic screw driver." sorry to any girls I may have offended here. But they made it look cool by sacrificing what made the show good in the first place, just like the new Star Trek and James Bond films.

Susan was fifteen


...or was she? She appeared to be 15, but Timelords and Timeladies are very often much older than they appear.

You don't want to count Capt Jack, but you're listing K9 to support your older companions thesis? Oh, please. You might as well list Camelion. (Don't, I'm trying to forget him.)

I'm also not too sure about the other "20 somethings" you've got there. Peri was still in school so I imagine she was barely 20, if that. Romana I looked very young as well.

As for the new ones, Martha was definitely not a teenager, especially if she was completing her residency. More likely late-20s. Rose is the only teenager in the new series (with the possible exception of Mickey), even counting the part-time companions you don't want to acknowledge.

BTW your right it does get good viewing figures but many of them are teen or 20 something girls watching it because "oh David Tennant you're so totally dreamy"

You can't possibly put me or any of the females on this board into that category! I'm a long way from my 20s and I agree with his decision to move on.

But they made it look cool by sacrificing what made the show good in the first place, just like the new Star Trek and James Bond films.

Oh, so not true! They not only kept the excitement of the old series (the new 1-hr format makes it move along much better), the relationships we always knew were there but never got to see just raise the stakes. Now it actually matters if Doctor & Co succeed instead of some vague "we should defeat the Daleks because they're bad" motivation. It's hard for me to care about the human race as a whole, but easy to root for Wilf's survival or Donna's happiness.

K9 was there for years Capt Jack only did a few weeks. That's why I didn't list camelion. I probably can't include any females on this board but that is the only reason the girls I know watch it. They hate the old series and to be fair I can understand why they don't like it but they love David Tennants eps pretty much just because he's in it.

A big part of Doctor Who was it's cliffhangers and it does kind of feel wrong without them. Unfortunately as it's on the BBC they can't even use adverts for mini cliff hangers. They could surely do all two or three parters. I feel they're going increasingly for style over substance. Long special effects shots loud music and silent reaction shots whilst a choir sings. They should half the special effects budget look at the genius that was blink. The budget saving ep of the series with practically zero effects.

I'm fairly certain Mickey wasn't a teenager. In fact I'm thinking he was something like four or five years older than Rose. Thing is, unless The Doctor mentioned her age(which Eccleston did more times than I want to think about, but Tennant did not)I didn't even notice how young she was.

BTW your right it does get good viewing figures but many of them are teen or 20 something girls watching it because "oh David Tennant you're so totally dreamy, oh please marry me David Tennant, oh David Tennant please let me play with your sonic screw driver


Dan, that is a very crass and closed minded assesment. I enjoyed David Tennant, and I certainly don't meet the criteria you outlined. I enjoyed it because he was a good actor in the role, plain and simple. I'm sure most of the people who watched agree.

I'm not saying that's the only reason people watch but that has pulled in a lot more viewers. If Eccy had done 5 years I somehow doubt that they'd get as good viewing figures. I preffered Tennant as well but it is no exaggeration to say that is pretty much the only reason the girls I know who are close to my age watch it.

True he might never have interfered but eh would have said to Moffet this guy is omnisexual show it

Nope, RTG definitely told Moffat 'Captain Jack is omnisexual but it's no big deal' or words to that effect.

so Moffat was thinking how can I put that in a 1940s story so he did the best he could.

Yeah, and Moffat also did the best he could to show the Master as gay in Time Crash, despite the fact RTG had him surrounded by a female harem for a year...let's face it, if you're hoping Season 5/31 will have less gay sex you're DOOMED to disappointment.

I'm all for making a point with sci fi but the points are long made and they were rather jarringly inserted.

Fair enough. After all, Idiot's Lantern isn't an RTG script...

Plus wahoo she's kicked out her husband it's 1950 no one will employ her

Why not? Thanks to the War, people were pretty used to women a) working, and b) getting divorced.

they rarely go to anywhere where people are just colleagues.

I honestly don't think Who is exaggerating the number of people who are paired off at any time. Each instance just leaps out at you because you find them all offensive.

However do you cope with the Hartnell era? The Doctor having a GRANDDAUGHTER. The Doc getting engaged. Barbara constantly facing rape. Edith getting raped. Barbara and Ian falling in love (just LOOK at them romping in The Romans...). Barbara flirting with Thals. Vicki falling in love. Susan marrying David. Susan almost getting forced into marriage with the Perfect Sacrifice. Sabitha and whatshisname on Marinus. The wife-beater getting shot by his wife on Marinus. The cave-couple getting together. John and whatshername on the Sensorites spaceship. The Chinese girl who marries for love after her elderly bridegroom dies of an aphrodisiac. Etc etc etc...

even during my sexually charged uni years we did manage to make it through days without bringing up sex or significant others.

Well, so does the Doctor! Admittedly not usually the days the BBC bothers to film...

As for Adam even if he was cremated that chip was from the year 200,000 would anything we have even scratch it?

Well, if EVERYONE'S got one, they bloody well ought to make 'em biodegradable.

The point of it being found wouldn't be the rewrite of history they'd say yawn he encountered an alien, hang on it's only the year 10,000 this chip is really fancy lets use it, bye bye timeline.

Oh, the Doc would intervene if things got out of hand. Still, now you mention it, it WAS very sweet of him to take the risk of returning Adam home.

As for the clicking my sister clicks her fingers a fair bit, they do it on TV a LOT.

So Adam will have to stay away from your sister and TV. No big deal, it's not like he's a Who fan.

Think of Q on Star Trek.

Why would I want to do that?

He could also never need to have an x ray or MRI or go on a plane

He could have x-rays as long as they were on non-head parts of the body. And the vast majority of humans get by just fine without having MRIs or getting on filthy polluting planes.

The Doc was either condemning him to death or totally destroying his life, not just being normal or average, but no friends, no family no human contact

Nonsense! He'd tell his parents not to click their fingers, and then he'd stay quietly at home. To be frank MOST British males under 35 lurk at home with their parents doing sod-all ANYWAY. (I exaggerate. But not by much.) Without the need to draw no attention, Adam would probably be hacking into computers trying to start another World War, like he did when he was a kid.

and I don't care what he did that is wrong.

So what would YOU have done with the little git? Leaving him on Satellite 5 would have been pretty tough on his parents, and the Doc had recently been taught a painful lesson about not upsetting the parents...

He's always trying to save davros the Hitler of the galaxy from death but he felt what he did to Adam was ok?

True, it is - like all human interaction - illogical. I'm thinking he should be a lot LESS nice to Davros rather than a lot more nice to Adam.

Eccy might not have been a bad actor but I felt he just wasn't the doctor, he blended into a crowd, something the doctor never did.

Couldn't disagree more. ECCY - IS - THE - DOCTOR. He was so utterly and totally the Doctor that unlike any of the others, he didn't need to dress up in a stupid costume to prove it.

they adapted it, made it different, made characters flawed removed half of the best loved parts of it and so brought in a ton of new fans whilst alienating the old.

You're the only alienated old Fan I've encountered. (Well, all right, and Lawrence Miles but he loves SOME of the new series.)

I know it sounds ridiculously unlikely that RTG should have managed to stay so utterly faithful to all that was best about Old Who, whilst dragging it kicking and screaming into a glorious new twenty-first-century dawn, but...that's exactly what He's DONE.

When future generations look back at James Bond they'll view the old as timeless classics but the new will be "the ones where they made it all modern that we don't like anymore because it's dated now" the new Dr Who will probably suffer from that too.

No one regards Old Who as timeless classics, we all point and laugh at its pre-historic-ness. No doubt that's why RTG was trying to avoid doing futuristic, which is probably why New Who will date more slowly than the Old stuff...though that does remain to be seen. And it will certainly date, no question about it.

the doc has always shunned from power then suddenly out of the blue he decides he's got the power of life and death?

Well, I wouldn't have called it out of the blue. They did spend the whole episode building up to it and it was pretty short-lived.

Hell, they spent four-and-a-bit YEARS building up to the Doctor snapping like that. He blew up Gallifrey, for gods' sakes.

Good lord, it's hard to imagine anything more dated than old Who! Everything gets dated; that's why we stop watching it. If you're lucky, your favorite show reinvents itself (Star Trek comes to mind). If not, it's over.

Whilst I utterly agree with your first point, I totally disagree on the stopping-watching-it stuff. Part of the fun of Old Who is shrieking indignantly at the sexism (and thinking how much humanity has EVOLVED in the past 50 years). To be honest, I've kind of felt a bit cheated that the new series has never given me the chance to go into a foaming feminist frenzy.

there seems to be anything now that if you make anything it HAS to be darker and edgier

What's wrong with that? Who was ALWAYS supposed to scare the hell out of us, it just didn't tend to succeed once you're past the age of six. New Who is darker, edgier, AND brighter and funnier than before. Concentrated essence of Who-ness.

Star Trek reinvented itself by having several TNG episodes that were very similar to the original series for a lot of the first season to ease people in. Same with DS9 and Enterprise, they both had dark plots near the end but spent a few seasons easing people in. Doctor Who never exactly bothered easing in the old fans t went full on new age from the start.

Ha ha! Who did it TOTALLY the right way and Star Trek is obviously made by wusses. RTG hit ten million people in the face with Rose - this is how it's gonna be whether you like it or not - and five years on the formula is exactly the same and ten million people are STILL watching.

Plus the doctor is the same person as he always was, i know personalities change but you don't have 7 regenerations of one kind and suddenly get darker and edgier.

Aren't you a bit selective with your memories of previous Doctors? For months Hartnell didn't give a •••• about anyone but himself - even to the point of trying to smash a wounded man's skull in. McCoy was an ends-justify-the-means planet-destroyer who totally manipulated the universe in general and Ace in particular. I strongly suspect Troughton was also a ruthless arch-manipulator but was a lot more successful than McCoy at keeping quiet about it (had Tomb gone the way of most Troughtons, we'd never have seen him secretly letting everyone into said Tomb while vigorously protesting about it). Colin Baker was an incredibly nasty piece of work. Pertwee was savagely bitter about his exile to Earth, to the extent that you half-expected him to abandon us in the middle of an alien invasion at the first opportunity (see Spearhead and Axos). Tom was adorable, but had (considerably less subtle than in the New Series) moments of declaring 'Look at me, I'm so COLD and ALIEN!'

OK, so Davison was a wimp, McGann likewise from what we saw of him, but SIX out of the EIGHT Old Doctors could be dark as hell.

I mean who's going to believe her when she says he called the fascists for her grandma to be carted off by the police because her face had been nicked.

Yes, but he called the police on all of the other neighbours, too.

And there were aerials ALL OVER that street. Everyone must have had a faceless relative dragged off thanks to Mr Connelly.

So maybe she *didn't* divorce him, just gave him something to think about. Who knows?

Exactly! It's not like she'd want to marry again once she's tasted liberation, anyway. So why mess around with divorce?

Even if you start with Tennant(like I did) and then see Eccy, it's hard to decide which was better.

God, it's such a delicious dilemma, isn't it...you can ponder for hours, while gently waving your Annual-with-the-hologram-of-Eccy-and-Tennant's-faces-turning-into-each-other...

And it's very possible that if Eccy hadn't betrayed and abandoned us, he might rate being my favourite Doctor.

Sonuvadalek ruined my life by becoming my favourite Doctor with his first 'Fantastic!'...two days BEFORE said betrayal n'abandonment was announced. Tennant, utterly as I adored him, took years before I could admit he was every bit as fantastic as Old Big Ears...whereupon HE promptly betrayed n'abandoned us too. (Obviously we should be playing hard to get with these guys. Luckily this might be easier with Matt Smith.)

His gaiety was too forced (although his serious scenes were great). Of course, I didn't realize this until the next one showed up!

How can you say that? How was his 'Everybody lives!' forced? Or when Jack proved Rose was still alive? I thought he did a magnificent job of bouncing back and forth from serious to happy.

•••• right. You could certainly detect a dark seething morass of pain beneath Eccy's happiness, but that's natural in the circumstances, hardly 'forced'. And NO Doctor has EVER had a more genuine and joyful scene than EVERYBODY LIVES!

Frankly I could have lived without Adam myself

I just thought he was pointless. And an idiot.

His point WAS to be an idiot, thus proving that being the best didn't necessarily equal brains. And to give Eccleston and Piper a bit of a rest. And to redo 'Rose', only this time showing us the Doctor AND Rose through an outsider's eyes. Of course, by the time RTG was finishing Long Game, filming had started, He realised that the Doctor and Rose were the most fantastic things EVER, and He had to have as much as possible of them, thus rendering Long Game slightly pointless.

wouldn't you be a bit darker and edgier if you killed *your whole race*? I'd think something like that would definately change a person's personality. Not only that, even if he hadn't been the one to kill everyone, fighting in any kind of war is bound to change you.

God yeah. The poor darling was used to problems he could bounce in and solve in an hour and a half.

Best Episode Ever!? BWA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA This is a joke, right?? The Doctor becomes a love sorn sap and some people think this is the best?

Thing about GitF is...it's got everything. History and spaceships and comedy and horror and tragedy and wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff and, yes, romance. It's the most gorgeous-looking Who ever, oh, and the ONLY story aside from City of Death where EVERY SINGLE LINE is quotable. Please TRY to get over your horror at its central premise and give it another go.

God, what do they think is the worst?

Daleks in Manhattan if we're talking new series. Don't get me started if we're talking old series.

Never mind the poor real Capt Jack who got lynched afterwards!

He didn't get LYNCHED exactly, he just...er...happened to die the following day...;)

Which means "our" Captain Jack either didn't give a rip, or he thought that since this guy was doomed anyway, what the hell?

Yes, he knew the poor bloke was doomed - and so, by then, did the poor bloke - so Captain Jack (our one) decided that giving the man one last taste of life and joy was more important than pandering to everyone else's disgusting prejudices.

Never mind that this could destroy the reputation of the "real" Jack Harkness. Gays were not tolorated in the military back then, they were abhorred.

I'm no expert on this period but it WAS the Second World War, I suspect they had to be a BIT tolerant, or anyone could have got out of fighting by claiming to be gay.

Whereas I felt Midnight's gender politics were distinctly...old-fashioned

That was the least of this turkey's problems. This story made no sense at all. You may as well have put a sign that said FILL IN EPISODE at the beginnging of it.

I don't love Midnight either, but it wasn't a fill-in...on the contrary, RTG had a perfectly good script from someone else and ripped it up cos he was so desperate to write THIS. I know WE find it incomprehensible, but there are LOADS of people out there who regard it as RTG's finest script.

RTD had to bring it into the 21st Century. That meant changes.

And aren't we so, so blessed that said changes, as well as ensuring Who's survival (and I'd sacrifice a LOT for that) also, miraculously, made it BETTER? How could anyone look at that scene of Mickey and Jackie in the kitchen being attacked by a Slitheen while Rose is giving instructions on how to find the vinegar and the Doctor's muttering 'You KISS this man???' and say that families shouldn't be allowed?

And there was Sarah-Jane's aunt in K9 and Company.

Yeah - the one time old Who mentions a family member who ISN'T about to kick the bucket, it's just to give them an excuse for a journalist gate-crashing a top-secret establishment. Sarah got through YEARS as Who's Best Companion Ever without us learning that her parents abandoned her as a baby at the side of the road and promptly got killed.

whilst the family dynamics in the new series I suppose is meant to show the Doctor's loneliness in even sharper contrast (they all have families, he's got nothing).

Yeah, THAT'S one of the less successful aspects of families-in-New-Who. One look at Jackie, Sylvia or (especially) Francine and you're thinking that having nothing is a really FANTASTIC idea.

It's also that the old series very rarely went back to the companions home time/place (only exception that leaps out is the Time Flight-Arc of Infinity duology), so any familiy members were just guest stars of the week

Come to think of it, they should have made a bit more effort with the UNIT crew. Aside from Benton taking a sister dancing, we don't know anything about him, the Brig, or Yates' family life - for all we know they could have been MARRIED at the time (some NAs and MAs tried to claim as much for the Brig - ex-wife Fiona, daughter Kate, later grandson Gordon, etc etc).

it might b believable that these characters always go home because that's how their written but why write them like that.

Because they're HUMAN BEINGS with an attachment to HUMAN FAMILIES. And cos they all live on present-day Earth where aliens are BOUND to invade every five minutes.

Also Eccy having no bad stories? pull the other one.

I KNOW it's utterly ridiculous and impossible but *shrugs* there is it. Humanity achieves perfection for once in its miserable existence.

Rose, an ok episode but we have to put with Rose's family.

'Rose' is the greatest joy and happiness in human history. And Mickey and Jackie are delightful.

The Aliens of London, World War 3. Not a bad episode but Rose's family takes center stage and the plot of the end of the world takes back seat.

And this - is - NOT - a - problem.

The Long Game, less said the better.

Nonsense! Get over to the Long Game thread and start slandering!

Fathers day ditto, belive it or not I'm not terribly interested in Rose's family history or these kinds of stories.

OK - wait until your father dies and THEN you might get the point of it.

The Empty Child/ The Doctor Dances, pretty good but again, the world is about to be zombified and we waste a good 20 mins of episode watching Rose get off with Jack and the Doctor.

But those are the best bits! Any old programme can have zombies and worlds facing destruction, but NO ONE flirts like the Doctor, Rose and Captain Jack during those pitifully brief hours when we are blessed with the greatest TARDIS team EVER.

Boom Town, ok I guess but full of plot holes, also again the destruction of cardiff and the capture of the Slitheen takes a back seat to Rose and Micky.

Admittedly it took me a while to realise how utterly the plot holes didn't matter and how truly great this episode is. The secret is just to keep watching it till it clicks.

at the end we think the Daleks will finally exterminate the Doctor, we knew he was going to regenerate and after all this time the Daleks almost deserve to, like the Coyote catching the Road Runner but instead of a Dalek Blast he regenerates after kissing Rose.

As you hate sex-in-Who so much, you should be GLAD that the Doctor pays for a snog with his life. Might teach him a lesson. (Alright: it didn't.) Plus a Dalek gets to exterminate him in Stolen Earth so you can't complain.

he has very few full on good ones.

Well, of course as your idea of 'full on good one' seems to be Dalek - i.e. loads of shooting and running down corridors - this isn't surprising.

the Doctors gaiety is basically the point of him.

What, even in the Hartnell and Pertwee eras?

Ok the show had to update but that doesn't mean sacrificing most of it to be new

NOTHING was sacrificed. NOTHING.

Well, except my illusions that Old Who was the greatest thing ever.

Plus a few cliffhangers.

Also why did they have to Wipe out the Timelords, the Doc doesn't need to have emotional baggage to drag up every 5 minutes.

Neither did he need an allegedly wise, all-powerful race peering over his shoulder - one that had totally failed to be properly realised on-screen during every single Old Who story in which they appeared.

new age doesn't mean everyone has to be a seriously flawed character.

Whyever not? They're way more interesting AND realistic that way.

In my world out of the blue means cropping up in a single episode after 40 years of denying power, they didn't even spend the whole ep building up to it, he was trying to avoid it for most of it.

Of course he was. But in the end it was utterly in character for the Doctor to be incapable of walking away from that dome with the screams of the dying ringing in his ears. He's THE DOCTOR.

Like that woman going from "help me" to shooting her self, and not just after ten minutes of our (episode) time, ten minutes of in universe time was well.

I know. What a genius RTG is to pull that off. But frankly after two minutes with the Time Lord Victorious the only logical response IS to shoot a) him or b) yourself.

I didn't watch the End of Time because I thought the Waters of Mars was so bad

Look. I'm not issuing death threats because frankly I'm in no position to do so, but...HOW COULD YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!! How could you sit fuming through five years of glory and then give up at the last hurdle?? If I'd known Trial was Colin's last story I might just have managed not to lunge for the off-switch. I'm not denying that End of Time is PURE RTG so no doubt you'd hate it, but...this was your chance for CLOSURE. You get to see RTG's last Doctor dying in agony, which is no doubt what you've been living for all these years...

Even the show itself dismissed Eccy remember the comments on him in Journeys end.

What comments?

Vicki, Jamie, Victoria & Zoe (& mayme Turlough) were all in their teens.

I don't think Turlough COULD have been. He had military rank on Trion by the time he was exiled - and that was about twenty years earlier judging by his brother...so his race can't age as we do and he was probably stuck in English public schools for a VERY long time.

I'm also not counting any of the one off tagalongs as companions, Micky, Jack

Mickey and Captain Jack are Companions! No doubt about it WHATSOEVER!

Also aren't none of you are hoping that the next companion might not have a family

Yes. But then I was also hoping she wouldn't snog the Doctor and THOSE hopes, at least, have been dashed...

as the show family has become increasingly formulaic, angry mother, more supportive male character

Yes, that was very obvious and rather annoying.

BTW your right it does get good viewing figures but many of them are teen or 20 something girls watching it because "oh David Tennant you're so totally dreamy

But Eccleston also got amazing viewing figures and HE wasn't a Pretty Boy.

So how did these freaky friends of yours react to the sight of Matt Smith?

It's hard for me to care about the human race as a whole, but easy to root for Wilf's survival or Donna's happiness.

Well, it USED to be easy to root for Wilf's survival...

True, it is - like all human interaction - illogical.

Have you ANY IDEA how much you sound like a certain Star Trek character?

I don't love Midnight either ... but there are LOADS of people out there who regard it as RTG's finest script.

Sign me up. Maybe not his finest, but I thought it was innovative and compelling.

You get to see RTG's last Doctor dying in agony

SPOILERS FOR END OF TIME:

Hang on, he didn't exactly die in agony. The 5,000 rads might have been agonizing, but he spent quite a bit of time afterwards strolling around. And the regeneration looked pretty normal (as much as we can judge these things from only two-ish previous examples), even if he did have to stagger into the TARDIS. (I don't think an Ood song would have helped me much in similar cirsumstances.)

Not sure how they're reacting to Matt Smith reckon they will still watch the show, whether they stick with it is another matter, they might not like Moffets new format whatever it may be.

Actually women found it very hard getting work after the war for that very reason all the men had come home and wanted their old jobs back.

I should point out I REALLY don't mind sex, gay sex, or even alien sex cropping up in the new series (or old for that matter) what i object to is that they will try either a gay reference or some relationship plot in pretty much every episode, your right I can't solely blame RTD for that but it kind of struck me that they're acting like they have a a quota to fill. The jarring inserts of Jack in Boom Town and The Doctor Dances, tooth and claw, them making a big thing out of the two women being married in Gridlock.

I mean in the old series whilst your right they did often have the assistant getting friendly with someone or meet a husband and wife team, they did have a solely action story lines and this is supposed to be action sci fi not sci fi drama, more action oriented stories is what I'm after, at a rate of more than 2 or 3 a season.

Again as I said earlier I just don't like the assistants family being worked in. Fair enough they would be in the first episode and they might pop back for a visit but they do bring them in a lot. Also if you are like me not a fan of Micky and Jackie then you won't like Rose leaving the epic battle to hang with them. Fair enough your a fan of their scenes but if your not then that does rather ruin a vast tract of the first season (less so in the second).

I'm sure most people wouldn't commit suicide to preserve the timeline, particularly if ten minutes ago you weren't to bothered about history. They could at least have shown her agonising over it for a day or so.

I just felt a dalek exterminating the doc would have just been a more epic ending for the doc, not becuase I oppose sex.

Now right what did who sacrifice, the cliff hangers, story format, it's entire genre (old and new who could be different shows) alien planets (without humans on them) and alien races under attack from other alien races. The doctor lost his objectivity, and the universe became less mysterious suddenly everything was seen and explained instantly. The doc would always know exactly when and where they were and recognise every alien race. I don't think we've ever seen one he didn't know about except the future kind.

As for what he should do to Adam, take the chip out and send him back home. With it still in he could never watch TV or listen to the radio again, be in the same room with any music on (the occasional song has clicking on), he'd never leave the house unless he got hurt and needed an MRI or xray (what if he develops a brain tumor or has a neurological condition). and what about getting a job, a girlfriend, what about when his parents die. He'd be to scared to ever risk another meeting another person, what if he gets old and can't click his fingers to close it? And don't say the chip isn't removable the doc could take him even further into the future to have it taken out. He could probably persuade his parents to keep it quiet but that could easily be it (maybe SOME of his friends) if he even has any and he certainly won't risk making any now. Plus if someone had left one of my friends like that I'd slam the doc head in the door of his tardis until; he fully appreciate the brilliance of removing it. Plus with the world changing as it is how long till we have those 'naked scanners' on all tube stations, the police are even now randomly deploying knife arches and waving around metal detectors.

As for fathers day the LAST thing I'd want to do is go back and watch my dad being killed. Ok your right I would save him but how about an alien invasion story as opposed to Rose wiping out the entire population of earth, and then getting the doctor killed so her dad had to kill himself to put history right. Rose's family did get an inordinate amount of screen time.

They had Rose and Father's day to themselves as well as a large amount of the Aliens of London WW3 and the parting of the ways. This isn't Eastenders. Plus Martha's mother REALLY rubs me up the wrong way, you as well i think lol.

The time lords did stay out of the old series very nicely despite apparently looking over his shoulder.

I should also point out we only think 10 million people watched it, they gather their data by having a few hundred (or maybe thousand) sample families who have what they watch monitored (with their permission) then they work it out from that so we actually have no idea how many people are watching. I should also point out that whilst ten million did what the Christmas special a lot less watch normally and check out what the BBC HYS had to say o the matter, out of everyone on it there were far more against that for it.

As for gays in the second world war I think you could get kicked out the army for that but few people could bear the social stigma, even if they weren't there were some nice suicide missions on offer.

Actually I liked David Tennant (which is odd because I didn't think I was going to after him deposing Harriet Jones, i want to find RTD and say "intergalactic slave traders to him over and over until he fully grasps how bad the aliens that got killed were lol) but less so the scripts he was given, he did feel more like a Doctor but as was said in a letter to the radio times I want to see David Tennant as a cheeky chappie not some distraught neurotic to whom death is a welcome release. He did kind of stop acting like himself. Actually I haven't exactly been fuming all these years as with each passing year it has more and more closely resembled the old series but then I caught a few repeats (which weren't so good on the second viewing) and the waters of mars kind of bought things to a head, I sort of realized how different the new series was and I was less willing to forgive it's changes (I was already in kind of a bad mood at the time which didn't help). Plus The End of Time was RTD's last hurrah well he's not having 10 million and one viewers "THE LINE MUST BE DRAWN HERE, THIS FAR AND NO FURTHER" thanks to Patrick Stewart for that line.

Whilst it does take guts to potentially abandon your base how many of those ten million are new fans I could make any show more popular if I had total power to change it, I could make it post watershed and have Billie Piper and Tennant naked that would certainly bump up viewers but I would lose my base. Your obviously an old fan who loves the new but we truely have no idea how many original fans quit.

I suppose this whole argument boils down to a single point the series's are different, the fact that people hate the old and love the new proves that and we can debate how much the new is like the old and how the new and old did this and new and old did that but they are VERY different and some (or many) of the old fans weren't going to like it, it has changed a lot and they would never have kept all their original base.

Have you ANY IDEA how much you sound like a certain Star Trek character?

Mercifully not.

Sign me up. Maybe not his finest, but I thought it was innovative and compelling.

I'm utterly sure you're right and I'm wrong...and that I just need to keep watching Midnight and, like Boom Town or Warriors' Gate, it'll get better every time until I love it like it's a basketful of kittens, but...the plan just isn't working. Four viewings and Midnight's STILL refusing to become the supreme joy of my life.

SPOILERS FOR END OF TIME PART TWO:

Hang on, he didn't exactly die in agony. The 5,000 rads might have been agonizing, but he spent quite a bit of time afterwards strolling around.

*Sob* He's so brave *more sobbing*. Of course he was in agony, poor darling! Especially by the end where it didn't look as if he'd even be able to CRAWL into the TARDIS...

And the regeneration looked pretty normal (as much as we can judge these things from only two-ish previous examples)

Nonsense, we have at least eleven previous examples of Time Lords regenerating (ten Doctors (including the abortive one in Journey's End), one Master, one Romana). NONE of which were violent enough to blow up the TARDIS.

(I don't think an Ood song would have helped me much in similar cirsumstances.)

Me neither, I'd be too worried about 'em developing red eye and worshipping Satan again.

END OF SPOILERS

Not sure how they're reacting to Matt Smith reckon they will still watch the show, whether they stick with it is another matter, they might not like Moffets new format whatever it may be.

But if they DID like the format they wouldn't be put off by Matt Smith's godawful Hair or anything?

Actually women found it very hard getting work after the war for that very reason all the men had come home and wanted their old jobs back.

Yeah, but this is eight years after the war and wasn't Britain climbing towards full employment by now? (Obviously I'm bluffing, the 1950s aren't exactly my period.)

The jarring inserts of Jack in Boom Town

WHAT! That flirtation between Jack and the Doctor was the highlight of my LIFE! The TARDIS crew has never, NEVER, been more joyous. Exactly the way it SHOULD have been for the WHOLE of Who's history. Instead of chugging along with a bunch of losers who weren't even sure they wanted to be there. (And that's if you're lucky and things didn't go drastically wrong, as with Mel or poor Davison's TARDIS-full of bickering whingers.)

The Doctor Dances, tooth and claw

Yup, the butcher in DD and the Doctor's reaction to the monks in T&C WERE about the only times I'm in agreement that the gay references didn't feel natural.

them making a big thing out of the two women being married in Gridlock.

They didn't make a big thing out of it. And actually that was one of the few times RTG put some effort into making a futuristic society a bit different - it was hilarious that a woman marrying a cat and having his kittens was utterly commonplace, but marrying another woman... - aaggghhhh!

this is supposed to be action sci fi not sci fi drama, more action oriented stories is what I'm after

You're perfectly entitled to prefer action stories, but it's interesting that you regard the whole of Who as being 'about' your particular preference. Am just reading Triumph of a Time Lord and it has some every interesting things to say about fans deciding what constitutes 'authentic' Who ('A projected Platonic essence of the series - not always the same thing for different fans - means that Who is always striving for the unattainable.').

Anyway, you're no doubt right there's been a shift towards drama, but that isn't necessarily at the expense of action. I'll bet the new series has at least as many scenes of violent confrontation per episode as the old. RTG just cut the padding to make way for a bit of drama.

Also if you are like me not a fan of Micky and Jackie then you won't like Rose leaving the epic battle to hang with them. Fair enough your a fan of their scenes but if your not then that does rather ruin a vast tract of the first season (less so in the second).

But sadly it's true of ANY regular character that if you don't happen to like 'em it's bound to detract from your enjoyment.

Did you not at least love Wilf? EVERYONE loves Wilf! Oh, go watch End of Time!

SPOILERS FOR WATERS OF MARS:

I'm sure most people wouldn't commit suicide to preserve the timeline

Most people wouldn't single-handedly inspire the human race to go to the stars either. Adelaide is very strong-minded (I remember when it was announced that the Doc had his most strong-minded Companion ever in Waters of Mars I was sceptical. But I take it back.) And she's also very special. (Admittedly when the Doc's waffling about how much he loves her and the starlight in her soul I thought RTG was carrying the whole 'special' thing a bit TOO far.)

particularly if ten minutes ago you weren't to bothered about history.

Of course history takes a back seat when you're being chased by zombies!

They could at least have shown her agonising over it for a day or so.

Nah, it was the sort of thing you did at once or not at all - certainly not after thinking about your kid and grandkid and all that sort of stuff.

END OF WATERS OF MARS SPOILERS

Now right what did who sacrifice, the cliff hangers,

Well, we have the SJA if we're desperate for cliffhangers. Besides, the ones we DO get are really, REALLY good. Not ******* zoom-ins on Colin Baker's face every bloody week.

story format

Oh, I think that's pretty much the same. Just...better.

it's entire genre (old and new who could be different shows)

No, they're DEFINITELY one glorious whole. Now the novels and audios - they usually feel like they're not proper Who.

alien planets

After Season One/Twenty-Seven we've had a fair number of 'em. Looking a LOT more impressive than they ever did before.

(without humans on them)

Who has always been about humans, humans, bloody humans. And always will be. It's a pity but don't pretend it's confined to the new series.

and alien races under attack from other alien races.

THAT was a staple of Old Who??

The doctor lost his objectivity

What objectivity?

and the universe became less mysterious suddenly everything was seen and explained instantly. The doc would always know exactly when and where they were and recognise every alien race.

Yes, that certainly removes some of the excitement and mystery, but a) it is SO worth it to see the Doctor showing off his alien knowledge, and b) this is the natural result of a process that's been going on for decades. Compare n'contrast, say, Tom Baker with William 'I've never heard of Daleks' Hartnell.

As for what he should do to Adam, take the chip out and send him back home.

Look, if the Doc's not prepared to hang around on that ghastly Satellite for a minute longer in order to save the million worlds of the Human Empire from collapse he's CERTAINLY not gonna do so in order to get Adam an operation. Still, I suppose he might have tried sonicing it off himself, but a) that might have caused brain damage, and b) why shouldn't this incredibly arrogant, greedy, irresponsible brat have to live with the consequences of his own actions? The trouble is, we're used to Tennant who'll say 'No second chances, I'm that kind of a man' and then attempt to top himself to give Sontarans second chances while they're gassing Earth. Whereas when Eccy decided not to give you a second chance, you REALLY didn't get a second chance. (Unless you were Rose. Or Captain Jack. Or Mickey.)

With it still in he could never watch TV or listen to the radio again, be in the same room with any music on (the occasional song has clicking on)

Of course he could! In the highly unlikely event some finger-clicking went on, Adam would just click his head shut again. He'd just have to be careful who he watched TV with.

he'd never leave the house

He could try buying a hat.

(what if he develops a brain tumor or has a neurological condition)

What if he does? The Doctor is a very busy man with an entire universeful of planets to save. He's not gonna start fretting about a back-stabbing git's extremely remote chances of suddenly getting a brain tumour.

and what about getting a job, a girlfriend, what about when his parents die.

He could get a job he could do at home over the computer, which is no doubt what he'd've done ANYWAY. As for a girlfriend...so he'd feel rather nervous about sleeping with anyone he doesn't trust. Gosh, how terrible, poor Adam.

He'd be to scared to ever risk another meeting another person

He didn't exactly strike me as much of a people person in the first place, alone in Van Statten's basement surrounded by alien tech. In any case, you're grossly exaggerating the risk of a) anyone clicking their fingers, and b) this leading to automatic discovery, vivisection, etc.

what if he gets old and can't click his fingers to close it?

He can take euthenasia the way I'm going to when I'm old and useless.

He could probably persuade his parents to keep it quiet

Of course he could!

but that could easily be it (maybe SOME of his friends) if he even has any

I see you share my suspicion that Adam wasn't exactly overwhelmed with chums BEFORE he drilled a hole in his head.

and he certainly won't risk making any now.

He will if he really wants some. At worst he'd just develop a retcon pill first.

Plus with the world changing as it is how long till we have those 'naked scanners' on all tube stations, the police are even now randomly deploying knife arches and waving around metal detectors.

Would that substance even register on a normal metal detector? Would taking a bus instead of a tube really be a fundamental breach of human rights? You are REALLY going out of your way to see life as intolerable and impossible for Adam. Frankly even if this was the case I wouldn't give a ••••, but I'm pretty sure it's NOT the case.

As for fathers day the LAST thing I'd want to do is go back and watch my dad being killed.

Well, quite. And it was obviously the last thing Rose wanted, given that she saved him. But all that humanity and domesticity and family highlighted MARVELLOUSLY how totally alien the DOCTOR is. He just didn't realise that. He saw Rose's actions as a cold-blooded, pre-planned betrayal of himself.

how about an alien invasion story as opposed to Rose wiping out the entire population of earth, and then getting the doctor killed so her dad had to kill himself to put history right.

It WAS an alien invasion story! The Reapers came and invaded Earth very successfully indeed!

Rose's family did get an inordinate amount of screen time.

But characters who aren't the Doctor ALWAYS get an inordinate amount of screen time! Why is this so unacceptable to you when it happens to be characters we know and are emotionally invested in (admittedly in your case said emotional investment is hatred rather than love)?

They had Rose and Father's day to themselves as well as a large amount of the Aliens of London WW3 and the parting of the ways.

And that would be boring if you didn't see all these different facets of them, if they didn't evolve and grow all due to the Doctor's influence. When we meet her Jackie's spent nearly two decades shut in a tiny council flat shagging anything that moves, by the end she's left her new son and millionaire's mansion to hop across universes fighting a guerrilla war against the Daleks.

It's called CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. Admittedly Old Who didn't have any of it, but that was a definite flaw in Old Who.

This isn't Eastenders.

•••• right it isn't. Dimensions in Time notwithstanding.

Plus Martha's mother REALLY rubs me up the wrong way, you as well i think lol.

GOD yes. She was a definite mistake - along with the whole family, come to think of it.

The time lords did stay out of the old series very nicely despite apparently looking over his shoulder.

They were fine whenever they DID stay out, but they had an unfortunate habit of appearing now and then, and promptly blowing their reputation. Of course, SPOILERS FOR END OF TIME when RTG does Time Lords, they are in NO DANGER WHATSOEVER of looking like a bunch of sexist traitor-ridden wimps with a weird taste in sofas. END OF SPOILERS.

I should also point out we only think 10 million people watched it

Actually the final figures are out and we now think that 12.27 million people had the supreme joy and heartbreak of watching The End of Time Part Two. (Including the HD channel and those who recorded and watched it, but excluding the BBC3 repeats and iPlayer.)

they gather their data by having a few hundred (or maybe thousand) sample families who have what they watch monitored (with their permission) then they work it out from that so we actually have no idea how many people are watching.

Given that Who has pretty much taken over popular culture, I'm thinking the viewing figures are highly unlikely to be OVERestimated. And anyway, even if the figures ARE inaccurate, they show Who doing marvellously well against all other (inaccurately-measured) programmes AND in comparison with (inaccurately-measured) Who in the past.

Just go to:

http://gallifreynewsbase.blogspot.com/2010/02/regeneration-number-one-for-week.html

Click on the 'Chart Position 1963-2010' box...and WEEP!

I should also point out that whilst ten million did what the Christmas special a lot less watch normally

It's NOT a 'lot' less. New Who viewing figures have been remarkably consistent. Which is just as well, we don't want the BBC doing another year of Specials any time soon. Or...y'know...EVER.

check out what the BBC HYS had to say o the matter, out of everyone on it there were far more against that for it.

What's the BBC HYS?

As for gays in the second world war I think you could get kicked out the army for that but few people could bear the social stigma, even if they weren't there were some nice suicide missions on offer.

I think we'd've heard if the gays in the British Army spent World War Two being rounded up and sent on suicide missions...

Actually I liked David Tennant

That's a relief! Personally I find that the love of a good Doctor redeems even the most miserable of stories (obviously I'm exaggerating, The Dominators is still an abomination even with all that delightful Troughtonness) so GO WATCH END OF TIME. You owe it to this marvellous Doctor to see him through to the VERY bitter end...

(which is odd because I didn't think I was going to after him deposing Harriet Jones, i want to find RTD and say "intergalactic slave traders to him over and over until he fully grasps how bad the aliens that got killed were lol)

Hear, hear. I can forgive RTG for being so Earth-centric for budget reasons, but I can't forgive him making the Doctor perfectly happy to see the Sycorax fly off to enslave other planets as long as Earth is safe. (Still, it's not as bad as Troughton in The Macra Terror...)

he did feel more like a Doctor but as was said in a letter to the radio times I want to see David Tennant as a cheeky chappie not some distraught neurotic

Whereas I'm so, so blessed that we have...sorry, HAD...a Doctor who could be a cheeky chappie (god, what an awful phrase) AND a distraught neurotic. (Which is exactly what anyone WOULD be after fighting evil non-stop for 900 years.)

to whom death is a welcome release.

If you'd bothered to watch End of Time you'd know that calling Tennant's death a 'welcome release' is about as accurate as calling Novice Hame a dog.

He did kind of stop acting like himself.

No, the Tenth Doctor just - briefly and fascinatingly - started acting more and more like himself once he didn't have a permanent human around for him to play up to.

but then I caught a few repeats (which weren't so good on the second viewing)

••••. I really thought repeats might solve all your problems. One of the numerous blessings of New Who is that the episodes are generally just as marvellous the eighth or tenth time round as they are the first.

I could make any show more popular if I had total power to change it, I could make it post watershed and have Billie Piper and Tennant naked that would certainly bump up viewers but I would lose my base.

I doubt you'd bump up your viewing figures - there's an awful lot of porn around to choose from (including that programme with Billie playing a prostitute). And I don't think you'd lose THAT much of your base, it takes catastophes of Trial of a Time Lord proportions to get ME lunging for the off-switch. I've coped perfectly well with a naked Doctor (Journey's End) and naked Captain Jack (Parting of the Ways, Children of Earth) without TOTALLY freaking out.

I suppose this whole argument boils down to a single point the series's are different, the fact that people hate the old and love the new proves that

But surely plenty of people love the Tom Baker era but hate the black-and-white era/Colin Baker/the UNIT years/whatever. Does that 'prove' that Old Who was made up of different series?

and we can debate how much the new is like the old and how the new and old did this and new and old did that but they are VERY different and some (or many) of the old fans weren't going to like it, it has changed a lot and they would never have kept all their original base.

Their original base aged quite drastically (SIXTEEN ******* YEARS!!!!!!!!!) so yes, whatever RTG did He'd never have kept us all (hell, how many people DIED OF OLD AGE waiting for Who to come back?) but I've heard of very few Old Who fans who don't love the new series - I suspect there are a HELL of a lot more people who came to Who through 'Rose' and then got the shock of their lives when they decided to explore Who's rich and glorious past, and got out a Web Planet DVD...

The doc would always know exactly when and where they were and recognise every alien race.

Hardly every race. The Ood, the Face of Boe (assuming he is a race), the Absorbalof, the Vinvocchi and their little red cousins, the Gelth, "Satan," the sun creature in "42," the repeat-after-me creature from "Midnight," the metal stingrays, and the Martian water all seemed to take him by surprise.

And he wasn't all that up on exactly where they were either. Aside from missing 12 months of Jackie's life and a decade from Charles Dickens, he also has to look out the window I don't know how many times to see where he is.

Oh, and the Tritovores.

And the Slitheen.

What i meant about them making a big thing about the two women being married in Gridlock was that instead of just ringing up and acting like someone would when ringing a husband and wife he made a big thing about two women being groundbreaking "I'm an old fashioned cat".

My point about the human prevalence is that there hasn't been a single story not involving humans, the original series did often have aliens that looked exactly human but they clearly weren't meant to be.


BBC HYS is the BBC Have Your Say, and whilst it's not strictly accurate to gauge the countries mood they were positively spitting about the epilogue if you click on readers recommended you'll See what i mean, Ok a fair bit is taken up by idiots who haven't even seen the show or homophobes and the top spot is a proish one. But a lot of the comments were anti.

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=1&forumID=7383&edition=1&ttl=20100204234957&#paginator

My point about Adam is that there are a thousand ways he could be discovered, he probably would be if he ever ventures into public again, or even has anyone in the house. His discovery would disrupt the timeline, precisely what the doc was trying to avoid by sending him home and destroying the answerphone. And my point about it being set off by the TV or radio is that whilst he could close it again what if there was someone in the room. Plus this is a post alien invasion world the police would probably believe you if they told them about it. If he euthanizes himself there would be an autopsy which would find it instantly. There is also no reason why the chip wouldn't show up under modern scans, there is no reason to keep it secret in the future. If there's ever any time I want to see the doc having some emotional moment I want it to be over Adam. I think he'd actually make a good new series baddy, he could be horrendously disfigured from government experiments. You must admit that hiding technology from 200,000AD that can be set off by clicking in the head of someone in the year 2012 is really a bad place, particularly as they're just smart enough to use it. I doubt a hat would work as it would be A knocked off by the chip as it opens outwards or B would burn out the motors at which point it would be flapping open, and he'd be discovered, timeline disrupted, end of universe etc.

"Your really going out of your way to see life as impossible for Adam"

Well wouldn't it be? Be honest if you knew you'd be dissected if someone clicked their fingers near you would you have a nice life? Plus the buses would have them as well soon, they could spring up everywhere. I sense Adam has inherited some of your Adric hatred lol.

Hey I'm only quoting the letter in the radio times. And just very occasionally I like my TV shows to be happy which lets be honest is rare these days. Star Trek, Star Gate, Doctor Who, James Bond, they're all dropping the happy for dark and edgy.

Excluding the Christmas specials Doctor who gets between 6 and 9.8 million viewers in a normal episode, (with a lot more 6s and 7s as the show went on). Also the previous two Christmas specials got a lot more 13 million viewers. I think his promise of "bleak" put a lot of people off, Christmas and new years are hardly a time of year for bleak TV.

What I meant by jarring inserts with jack was his public gay kiss in 1940 They'd have kept it secret, as we all discussed earlier. TBH I doubt there were mass suicide missions with gay people but they weren't exactly out and proud the occasional pilot being killed would raise no eyebrows, particularly if whoever ordered it didn't survive the war or to the modern tolerant whistle blowing age (a distinct possibility).

The point about Roses family getting an inordinate amount of screen time is that Doctor who is supposed to be about exploring strange new worlds and boldly going where no man has gone before not going back to MODERN Earth every other story, yes I know UNIT was an exception and that would have been a more justifiable time to introduce earth bound families but they didn't. Doctor Who does have a format which is Doctor and Companion not Doctor Who and Companion plus family. I also object to RTD acting like Rose is the most important thing that ever happened to the doctor he's not fallen in love with a human for 900 years he wouldn't start now, there is a reason they chickened out of him actually confirming it.

I meant to say earlier the comments about Eccy ere what the doc said about his clone (the one from the hand) he's me when you fist met me, damaged dangerous distressed (or something similar) kind of dismissing doc 9 as a bad mood.

I also excuse RTD nothing for budget saving reasons, the old series managed to do alien planets week in week out with a fraction of the budget, RTD just needs to spend less money on effects. (it's not like it goes on alien makeup or futuristic clothes or props) or even sets for that matter.

I should add that I'm 21 and a late 80s kid I had to make do with UK gold repeats and videos, if I liked the old series others would to, I should also point out that NO fans of the new series I know (and I'm including my entire facebook friends list on that which is nearly 300 people BTW I'm not boasting just making a point) are male they like the old series. The new series's format, not just Tennant though him and Jack do help) appeal a lot more to women than men, if they had brought back the old doctor but just tweaked a bit they would have about the same number but probably less gender balanced.

I sense Adam has inherited some of your Adric hatred lol.

Maybe because he looked like Adric and came off like Adric (an obnoxious twit) had something to do with it.

I frankly couldn't care less what happens to the Son Of Adric. Maybe one of the Daleks in The Stolen Earth fried him.

I'm sticking with my previously stated theory that Adam was deleted from time when the future changed; i.e., the 2012 of "Dalek" could not have happened after the events of "Army of Ghosts"/Doomsday/The Stolen Earth".

Hardly every race. The Ood, the Face of Boe (assuming he is a race)

That's a tricky one. On the one hand, Boe mentions that 'I am the last of my kind, as you are the last of yours' (Gridlock), on the other hand, he's Captain Jack's head stuck in a jar - how can he possibly be part of a race? Unless he's produced enough kids to make up an entire race, which given a) his pregnancy in Long Game, and b) the fact he's Captain Jack, IS a possibility.

And he wasn't all that up on exactly where they were either. Aside from missing 12 months of Jackie's life and a decade from Charles Dickens, he also has to look out the window I don't know how many times to see where he is.

And even when he does get to the right place n'time - as in 'This is the Fourth Great and Bountiful Human Empire and my 'istory is PERFECT' - it turns out that the timelines have been altered. Or everyone has been wiped out by a Bliss patch. Or whatever. Poor old Doc.

And the Slitheen.

To be fair, the Doc did know quite a bit about Slitheen, up to and including how to pronounce Raxacoricofallipatorius - he was just REALLY slow at working out that the fat green farting skinsuited creatures were Slitheen.

the original series did often have aliens that looked exactly human but they clearly weren't meant to be.

I dunno about 'clearly' - I'm never sure whether planets like Dulkis are supposed to have evolved aliens exactly like us (god, how implausible is THAT) or supposed to be descended from human settlers.

BBC HYS is the BBC Have Your Say, and whilst it's not strictly accurate to gauge the countries mood they were positively spitting about the epilogue

Philistines and morons! I certainly couldn't be bothered to plough my way through their whining nonsense now that the debate is tragically closed, but do remind me to get on those boards once Who is back and I'll soon put the ungrateful whingers right.

My point about Adam is that there are a thousand ways he could be discovered

There are if he didn't happen to be living on a planet where everyone is utterly incapable of believing the evidence of their own eyes vis-a-vis Daleks, Cybermen, ghosts, spaceships etc etc etc. Ignoring a suspicious whirring noise coming from under Adam's hat would be childsplay.

I doubt a hat would work as it would be A knocked off by the chip as it opens outwards or B would burn out the motors

Adam's a genius, surely he could work out a way to switch off the motors and leave his head closed? Or at least have a very floppy hat?

Be honest if you knew you'd be dissected if someone clicked their fingers near you would you have a nice life?

I'd soon work out that the Doctor was exaggerating about dissection in order to make me keep a low profile. I'd also work out that offering my genius to Torchwood or UNIT in exchange for their protection would give me an exciting career.

And just very occasionally I like my TV shows to be happy which lets be honest is rare these days. Star Trek, Star Gate, Doctor Who, James Bond, they're all dropping the happy for dark and edgy.

Who has certainly got darker and edgier, but it's also got MUCH happier. To be honest I can think of very few usually-happy regulars in Old Who bar the Second and Fourth Doctors and *shudders* Mel. Whereas the new series has actually introduced the concept of the TARDIS crew being HAPPY about each other's company, about saving worlds, about travelling in space and time...

Excluding the Christmas specials Doctor who gets between 6 and 9.8 million viewers in a normal episode, (with a lot more 6s and 7s as the show went on).

Really? I thought viewing figures were generally increasing rather than decreasing?

I think his promise of "bleak" put a lot of people off, Christmas and new years are hardly a time of year for bleak TV.

How many casual fans would know that RTG said anything about 'bleak'?

What I meant by jarring inserts with jack was his public gay kiss

Ah! Agreed. But irrelevant to Who.

The point about Roses family getting an inordinate amount of screen time is that Doctor who is supposed to be about exploring strange new worlds

But London council estates ARE strange new worlds.

and boldly going where no man has gone before

I have a horrible suspicion you're getting Who mixed up with some lesser programme which will remain nameless...

Doctor Who does have a format which is Doctor and Companion not Doctor Who and Companion plus family.

I see it more as a case of 'Doctor Who used to have a format which is the all-important Doctor plus some inferior screaming whining tea-making two-dimensional female sidekick, but now the format is the Doctor and his Companion as equals'. Admittedly this is a break with the tradition of everything but the glorious Doctor-and-Romana-II era, but it's UNDOUBTEDLY an improvement.

I also object to RTD acting like Rose is the most important thing that ever happened to the doctor he's not fallen in love with a human for 900 years he wouldn't start now, there is a reason they chickened out of him actually confirming it.

Yeah, on the one hand it's rather out of character for the Doctor to fall for anyone, let alone a teenage chav, but on the other...it's utterly understandable in the circumstances. Said circumstances being that he's just blown up his entire species.

I meant to say earlier the comments about Eccy ere what the doc said about his clone (the one from the hand) he's me when you fist met me, damaged dangerous distressed (or something similar) kind of dismissing doc 9 as a bad mood.

Oh, it wasn't dismissive! And he wasn't implying that he only 'got better' AFTER he died and turned into all that Tennanty goodness thanks to Rose. It was just an acknowledgement of the truth - that he'd been SERIOUSLY scarred when he first met the stupid ape in the Henriks basement.

I also excuse RTD nothing for budget saving reasons, the old series managed to do alien planets week in week out with a fraction of the budget

Yes. And sadly they were a national laughing-stock. I agree RTG should have been a little less paranoid about this, but in the circumstances I don't altogether blame him.

I should also point out that NO fans of the new series I know (and I'm including my entire facebook friends list on that which is nearly 300 people BTW I'm not boasting just making a point) are male they like the old series.

VERY interesting. How ironic that Who should apparently have become a programme for women despite the fact that the new series only has one female writer and she's the worst of the lot.

Well, hopefully the men'll enjoy the Moffat era. Sure, his episodes were the most love-and-sex-obsessed of any new series author, but judging by the trailer the Eleventh Doctor is gonna indulge in non-stop violent action...

I frankly couldn't care less what happens to the Son Of Adric. Maybe one of the Daleks in The Stolen Earth fried him.

We can hope. Until we get confirmation, he's one of the main lose ends of the RTG era.

I'm sticking with my previously stated theory that Adam was deleted from time when the future changed; i.e., the 2012 of "Dalek" could not have happened after the events of "Army of Ghosts"/Doomsday/The Stolen Earth".

And I'm sticking with my theory that, having interacted with the Doctor, Adam's a fixed point in time whatever else changed in Van Statten's bunker.

You're only a fixed point in time while you're travelling WITH the Doctor. Once you leave the TARDIS for good, you're part of history. Just ask Sam Jones. Oh, that's right, you can't, her future was radically changed after she split.

Or how about Captain Adelaide Brooke from "The Waters of Mars"? You could literally see her history change in that episode; her future Wikipedia edited itself after she left the Doctor and killed herself.

The Face of Bo IS Captain Jack, RTD confirmed it, I assume that his children have died by the year 5 billion as they wouldn't have the time vortex energy to keep them alive. Also he could have been referring to himself as the last pure human as the other humans have evolved since.

I didn't know RTD was promising bleak episodes until I read it in the Radio Times so a lot of other people would have seen it there too.

There were several aliens that the doc knew (or the characters confirmed themselves) were in no way related to humans (the Kaleds and Thalls for example) or they had a tiny bit of makeup. After all we except the Doctor being an alien every week.

Was just checking the viewing figures, they went low at the end of Eccy's season (the season finale got the lowest that season) jumped when tenant showed up and gradually decreased until Catherine Tate showed up and jumped again. I think she drew in some of her old fans as she pulled in the best ones. They then decreased as the Easter and November specials pulled in 8 and 9 million.
The Christmas specials have been steadily increasing until this year, the first two were about 9.8 million, voyage of the damned got about 13 million, the next doctor got about 13.2 million and then the end of time only pulled in 10 million. I should also point out that RTD lost 3 million viewers after his first ep so I guess a fair few people didn't like the new format.

I doubt the logical reaction to killing everyone you know and love is to fall for a chav lol.

The alien planets weren't all bad, besides Star Trek and Stargate manage alien planets weekly now, maybe 30 years in the future they'll be knocked for constantly filming in Canadian forests but who cares what people think then lol.

Lol don't remind me about Mel

Also something I'd forgotten about Adam he's with Van Statten's company so whoever controls it now would find Adam again and would almost certainly stumble across the chip thus destroying the timeline. At the very least the Doc should have let Adam change what opened it, maybe something in a language no one on Earth speaks. At least then the timeline wouldn't be destroyed with a click of the fingers. I wouldn't exactly risk trusting UNIT if it was my head on the line lol.

One of the Daleks in the stolen Earth couldn't kill Adam as he hasn't met the doc yet. On doctor who earth they are a year ahead of us but it's still only 2011 and the Doc didn't meet Adam until 2012.

Well I disagree over the presence of the family being an improvement, we'll just have to agree to disagree there but imagine your Martha's mother hatred applying to Rose and Martha's entire families too. I don't disagree with the companions being equals but look at doc 9 never saving the day once it does grate a bit.

Yeah the new series is more female accessible partly because of its more chick flicky format and also because boys (especially my age) are FAR more likely to have watched old episodes growing up so whilst girls took the new series for what it was boys were sitting there fuming about how different it was, obviously with exceptions. I'm sure some old series male fans love the new and old series female hate it.

Are you sure that the Doc wasn't dismissing doc 9 as a bad mood he tried to run out on Rose and threatened the entire timeline to try and teach Adam a lesson something Tennant never did, I don't think that season was terribly popular, it was very heavy RTD style (maybe why you loved it) but for some reason it just wasn't that popular with my peers male and female. I heard one theory that RTD seriously neglected his male fanbase large having female "fan service" (hot men) and very little male "fan service" (hot women) which Moffet is obviously desperate to correct lol.

Lesser program how dare you lol.

I doubt doc 11 will be that violent you could make tennant seem violent and gun obsessed if you take enough out of context. remember doc 3's Venusian karate.

The alien planets weren't all bad, besides Star Trek and Stargate manage alien planets weekly now, maybe 30 years in the future they'll be knocked for constantly filming in Canadian forests but who cares what people think then lol.

Star Trek never filmed in Canada. It was shot at Paramount Studios in L.A.


One of the Daleks in the stolen Earth couldn't kill Adam as he hasn't met the doc yet. On doctor who earth they are a year ahead of us but it's still only 2011 and the Doc didn't meet Adam until 2012.

Whoops! So that means the Son Of Adric is still out there. As long as we don't have to see him again. He was one of RTD's few mistakes. Was RTD one of the few kids who actually LIKED Adric, I have to wonder, and decided to bring in his own version of him?

Yeah your right Star Trek was never filmed in canada but they still used the same sets and locations for just about every alien planet.

Who's said anything about Adam being killed by Daleks? I said that Van Statten didn't recognize a Dalek in 2012, which is impossible in the Tennant timeline, as the Daleks had publicly invaded Earth twice before 2012.

Well I don't think the Daleks ever actually said who they were when invading. At least not to the general population, thye just glided around shouting exterminate, Wilf didn't know what to call them. A good solution to that would be to say the Doctor got the date wrong and it was in fact 2005 in Dalek.

Are you kidding me? The Daleks constantly announce who they are; it's their trademark. Does the phrase "You will obey the Daleks!" ring a bell?

Besides the invasions in 2006 and 2008, the Daleks have been on Earth in 1930 ("Daleks in Manhattan") and 1963 ("Remembrance of the Daleks"). The man who claims to own the Internet should have access to enough info that he wouldn't have called the Dalek a Metaltron.

the end of time only pulled in 10 million

"Official figures released by BARB reveal Doctor Who The End of Time, Part Two was watched by 12.27 million people and was once more the most watched programme of the week on British television."

Which is odd, actually, since Part One only had 12.04 viewers. Who watches part two of something without seeing the first half?

Still, clearly Who is doing something right.

.23 million had something else to do the previous week?

Maybe .23 million viewers is the margin for error in these figures, after all it it is largely based on guess work. Even if they knew exactly what every TV in the UK was tuned into (which they don't) they still don't know how many people there are in the room watching it.

Still the specials season didn't have as many viewers as the pervious one and this christmas special was still watched by a million fewer people.

The man who claims to own the Internet should have access to enough info that he wouldn't have called the Dalek a Metaltron

Exactly, everyone on Earth should know what Daleks are now.

Yeah TBH even if the Daleks never said their name when they invaded at least not to any survivors. Van Statten seems like to sort of man to know everything Unit knows and unit knew about Daleks in the 1980s. Still I am pretty sure the daleks never called themselves daleks to anyone outside of the main characters.

Daniel, I suggest you rewatch the episodes (any episodes) with Daleks. They can't go 10 seconds without announcing themselves. Admittedly, a high percentage of people they greet thusly are subsequently "EXTERMINATED!", but there are enough survivors that their name should be pretty well known by 2007, let alone 2012.

I meant the new series in the battle of canary warf they were only in London and then only for a few minutes very high in the sky the only thing the Daleks that came out the ark said was exterminate. As for the stolen Earth I must admit to only seeing it once but I'm pretty sure they only said things like exterminate or obey, after all the Dalek in Dalek never said a word to anyone other than the Doctor and Wilf didn't know what to call them in the stolen Earth. I belive Donna didn't know what to call them either.

Donna is an exeception; if you recall her backstory in "The Runaway Bride", she was always on vacation when some alien event occurred.

As you come to learn more about Who, you'll realize that Daleks looooove to talk about themselves in the 3rd person. You'll be treated to such faves as "You-will-obey-the-Daleks!" and "Daleks-rule-supreme!"

Lol trust me I've seen enough who to know how much they chant that "Daleks conquer and destory" but I'm pretty sure they never chant that in thsoe two episodes in public.

You're only a fixed point in time while you're travelling WITH the Doctor. Once you leave the TARDIS for good, you're part of history. Just ask Sam Jones. Oh, that's right, you can't, her future was radically changed after she split.

Yeah, but then there was was serious amounts of interference by, um, very powerful crystal people or something...(GOD my memory's hazy, I really ought to reread Sometime Never sometime, though I have a feeling it didn't make much sense at the time either.)

Or how about Captain Adelaide Brooke from "The Waters of Mars"? You could literally see her history change in that episode; her future Wikipedia edited itself after she left the Doctor and killed herself.

Yes, but that was only because the most powerful being in the cosmos - the Lonely God, the Last of the Time Lords - bent all his willpower on changing said history - 'The laws of time are mine and they will obey me!' It fits in nicely with Pyramids of Mars' claim that it would take a being of Sutekh's power to change history on a massive scale (even if it doesn't fit in nicely with every common-or-garden alien attempting to change Earth's history all the time - all of them would no doubt have succeeded, if not for the Doctor.)

Also he could have been referring to himself as the last pure human as the other humans have evolved since.

There's no evidence that Captain Jack IS pure human - by his time there was obviously a LOT of inter-species dancing - and there's no evidence that Captain Jack (of all people!) would take a Cassandra-like attitude towards being the Last Human even if he WAS.

I didn't know RTD was promising bleak episodes until I read it in the Radio Times so a lot of other people would have seen it there too.

Ah! I forgot about the Radio Times. I'm boycotting it due to depriving An Unearthly Child of its rightful cover. Not to mention that Sec cover that ruined the only good moment in Daleks in Manhattan.

There were several aliens that the doc knew (or the characters confirmed themselves) were in no way related to humans (the Kaleds and Thalls for example) or they had a tiny bit of makeup. After all we except the Doctor being an alien every week.

True, but you still haven't explained why having aliens who look and act exactly like humans is so preferable to just having humans.

I should also point out that RTD lost 3 million viewers after his first ep so I guess a fair few people didn't like the new format.

Obviously they were philistines and morons whose tiny minds were utterly unable to compute the fact they'd just been blessed with the most marvellous 45 minutes in televisual history. It's not RTG's fault.

I doubt the logical reaction to killing everyone you know and love is to fall for a chav lol.

No, but falling for someone and starting to breed is a very common reaction to genocide. (Obviously and thankfully the Doc never quite got round to the latter.)

Also something I'd forgotten about Adam he's with Van Statten's company so whoever controls it now would find Adam again and would almost certainly stumble across the chip thus destroying the timeline.

Whatshername's in charge now, and she's filling Van Statten's alien museum with cement. So she's the last person to go chasing after Adam to get his chip.

At the very least the Doc should have let Adam change what opened it, maybe something in a language no one on Earth speaks. At least then the timeline wouldn't be destroyed with a click of the fingers.

But according to you it would still be discovered when Adam was buried/cremated.

And if Adam had had control over that chip, he'd've felt confident enough to go on-line and boast about the Doctor, the year 200,000, maybe try to start a world war to show how clever he is...

I wouldn't exactly risk trusting UNIT if it was my head on the line lol.

Fair enough - Sarah wasn't exactly keen to let 'em know about Luke. Maybe Torchwood would be a better bet...

look at doc 9 never saving the day once it does grate a bit.

It doesn't grate on ME. (It should. But it doesn't.)

Are you sure that the Doc wasn't dismissing doc 9 as a bad mood he tried to run out on Rose

Tennant tried to run out on Rose too. Reborn, Girl in the Fireplace, Impossible Planet, Doomsday...

I don't think that season was terribly popular

Season 1/27 was wildly popular, beyond the dreams of myself, or ANYONE who made it. It just happens to have got EVEN MORE POPULAR since.

I doubt doc 11 will be that violent you could make tennant seem violent and gun obsessed if you take enough out of context. remember doc 3's Venusian karate.

Very true, but isn't it interesting that they CHOSE to show us the bits where the Doc's being violent...? Maybe your desire for more action-adventure is common, you're right about all the men siting around feeling cheated (LOSERS!), and The Moff is responding...?

He was one of RTD's few mistakes. Was RTD one of the few kids who actually LIKED Adric, I have to wonder, and decided to bring in his own version of him?

No no - Adam was DELIBERATELY designed to be a total loser - Long Game was nearly called The Companion Who Couldn't or something.

.23 million had something else to do the previous week?

Something more important than watching The End of Time Part One?

I DON'T think so!

As for the stolen Earth I must admit to only seeing it once but I'm pretty sure they only said things like exterminate or obey

You know, I think you may be right about the Daleks being a HELL of a lot shyer with their identity than they were in the (Less) Good Old Days. The Dalek in 'Dalek' kept its gob shut under torture, the Daleks in Doomsday refused to tell the Cybermen their identity (only letting it slip accidentally)...

Maybe Jack did mean Bokind, still a human from the year 5 thousand would be so different from a 5 billion year human he probably did see himself as more human, although he probable ceased to think of himself as human a long time ago as he looked like that at least as early as the year 200,000.

I suppose human like aliens are that little bit more mysterious, plus it does make the story's setting seem just that little bit more alien and far flung if the characters have never seen a human before.

Even though whatsername is in charge she filled in the museum because she was afraid of any other live aliens rather than a total aversion, i suspect she'd still try to use alien tech where possible. Even if she didn't she'd doubtless be afraid of any other alien tech and would seek it out to destroy it. If she found Adam had the chip she'd either want to use it or kill him to remove the threat, and considering she owns the Internet tracking Adam down would be very easy. Whilst making sure the chip doesn't open would only slightly reduce the danger to the timeline ever little helps. I still maintain that it was a stupid thing for Doc 9 to do. I think Adam would actually make a good baddy, using his powers to try and cause some catastrophe to lure out the doctor to get him to remove the chip.

Yeah right with you on the radio times cover, though it is only semi their fault the new series seems unable to keep a lid on anything, they let out almost all the spoilers, the return of the cybermen, Davros, the master, the time lords. Pretty much the only surprise they did keep was the Daleks at the end of Army of ghosts, even that was nearly spoiled by showing someone being exterminated with a dalek gun in the next time bit at the end of the previous episode, luckily I'd forgotten that by the time I saw Army of Ghosts.

Tennant didn't really run out on Rose in the impossible planet, he had no way to get back up to her and was originally going to return to her until the cable broke. I agree his decision in the girl in the fireplace was stewpid (have to write it like that or it gets blanked) but at least in Doomsday he was trying to save her. Whilst in Fathers Day he got in a mood and stalked off again not considering the damage leaving someone from 2005 in the year 1980 with a time phone in her pocket and full knowledge of the worlds events would do.

New Torchwood maybe but who'd want to work for the welsh torchwood, it seems a thoroughly miserable place to be lol.

I'm actually sort of hoping the new Doctor Who is a totally different format that new fans won't like so they will howl in despair and me and all the other old series fans can say 'ha ha now you know how we've been feeling for the past 5 years' lol.

As for the Daleks identity maybe RTD deliberately kept then quieter, maybe if they show up in a future public environment they'd be less tight lipped about their identity. One very good thing with the new daleks is how they react to the doctor, the fear they show of him is priceless gets a laugh out of me every time. i Spose RTD has at least done one thing right lol.

Ok season 1 was only relatively unpopular but still it did take 2 years or so to regain the high viewing figures of the first episode.

No, but falling for someone and starting to breed is a very common reaction to genocide. (Obviously and thankfully the Doc never quite got round to the latter.)

What do you think BlueDoc's doing with Rose right now?

Maybe Jack did mean Bokind, still a human from the year 5 thousand would be so different from a 5 billion year human he probably did see himself as more human, although he probable ceased to think of himself as human a long time ago as he looked like that at least as early as the year 200,000.

I had a bit of trouble understanding that sentence (punctuation is a wonderful thing), but are you saying Jack looked like the Face of Boe by 200,000? The first time we meet him is on Platform One at the end of Earth some 5 billion years from now.

stewpid (have to write it like that or it gets blanked)

Not anymore. They fixed that a while ago. After all, it's hard to nitpick something without being able to call it stupid.

the new series seems unable to keep a lid on anything, they let out almost all the spoilers,

Tell me about it! That's why I avoid even next week's teasers. It's hard to completely escape the leaks though.

I'm actually sort of hoping the new Doctor Who is a totally different format that new fans won't like so they will howl in despair and me and all the other old series fans can say 'ha ha now you know how we've been feeling for the past 5 years' lol.

The utility of that rather depends on how many fans there are who only like the old series. I suspect if new series fans are turned off by Moffet's changes, DW might very well die as its audience evaporates. And you're the only old series fan I've seen so far who doesn't like the new series. Everyone else seems to like both.

One very good thing with the new daleks is how they react to the doctor, the fear they show of him is priceless gets a laugh out of me every time.

I know. I love those bits, too.

We see the Face of Bo in the background of the long game on a TV screen where they say he's pregnant, his name crops up in the weakest link on bad wolf as well. Jack has looked like the Face of Bo for 4.8 billion years (I'm assuming doctor who uses the American Billion, almost everybody does now) so I doubt he sees himself as human any more. If he sees himself as Bokind we can assume they dies out, if he means human then the humans with billions of years more evolution on them are so different he probably sees himself as an evolutionary throwback.

As for other old series fans who doesn't like the new my Dad and my best mate don't. Neither does one angry person on facebook who tagged one of my friends in his rant about bringing sex into everything making it rubbish, he included Doctor Who in his argument as well as the new Star Trek film. Plus I've heard Internet rumblings between old and new fans. I once found a debate on the Tardis Wiki where they argued over whether RTD has wrecked doctor who.

I doubt it'll fail if new series fan don't like Moffet's changes, he'll probably be able to tempt back a few old series fans who left. Doctor Who ratings range by 7 million maybe a few of the drifters will stick around too.

There is a difference between leaks and putting spoilers in the next time trailers and adverts for the series. I appreciate they have to attract viewers but when they showed a man in a half dalek base with an eye in his forehead in shadow to keep you guessing that is not fooling anyone lol.

Also to test stupid. lol

I once found a debate on the Tardis Wiki where they argued over whether RTD has wrecked doctor who.

This reminds of of the cries of protest from Trek fans when Next Generation started in 1987. How dare they, those Trek fans cried, how dare they replace Kirk, Spock, McCoy, etc, with new characters. This would, they said, kill Trek. Well, it didn't. Next Generation was a hit, and Trek went on. No doubt some old fans held out, but most accepted it. No doubt the same thing has happened with Who.

There's a debate about everything. Just because a position is being debated does not validate that position.

Next Gen eased people in for a few years especially in the first series. I should also point out it was called Star Trek the Next generation, it was supposed to be a different show not a continuation. The first thing to depict the original series cast in a different way was the new Star Trek film which a lot of people praised as a good film but said it just didn't capture the magic of the original series.

The point of me mentioning the debate wasn't to say if I was right or wrong it was to show other people aren't too happy about RTDs changes.

We see the Face of Bo in the background of the long game on a TV screen

Ah. I wonder if they'll ever do a story on how he got that way? You just know the Doctor's got to be involved.

i suspect she'd still try to use alien tech where possible. Even if she didn't she'd doubtless be afraid of any other alien tech and would seek it out to destroy it.

There's absolutely no evidence of that. She'd be way too busy taking over the rest of Van Statten's empire - choosing American Presidents, running the Internet etc - to mess with alien tech even if she wanted to. And all the indications are that she really, REALLY doesn't want to. (I mean, she didn't even THINK about resuming that delightful scene where Eccleston gets tortured without his shirt on! She just let him go!! What kind of freak IS she?!)

(Come to think of it, wouldn't Obama be the President way down in the ratings who Van Statten decides to replace?)

I think Adam would actually make a good baddy, using his powers to try and cause some catastrophe to lure out the doctor to get him to remove the chip.

Yes, it's a shame that particular loose end was never tied up, but a) that does tend to support the view that Adam never caused any trouble, and b) at least this means we'll never have to see Adam again.

the new series seems unable to keep a lid on anything

Well, it's not their fault New Who is the most popular thing in human history and the entire universe would die to get one blurry spoilerific photo.

Actually, it IS their fault. But they still managed to keep Catherine Tate a secret. AND the cliffhanger to Stolen Earth. And exactly WHO was gonna knock four times...*sob*

Pretty much the only surprise they did keep was the Daleks at the end of Army of ghosts, even that was nearly spoiled by showing someone being exterminated with a dalek gun in the next time bit at the end of the previous episode, luckily I'd forgotten that by the time I saw Army of Ghosts.

You FORGOT? You FORGOT??? You FORGOT????????????

Tennant didn't really run out on Rose in the impossible planet, he had no way to get back up to her and was originally going to return to her until the cable broke.

Oh, I didn't mean THAT, I meant the INCREDIBLY horrible scene where poor Rose is stranded round a black hole (yeah, cos they'd NEVER find the TARDIS again once it's fallen down a pit!) and desperately tries to make the best of it, suggesting that - if they've got to get a house - they might get one together...and the Doctor - having been all over her for months - suddenly develops some SERIOUS commitment problems, the total git.

but at least in Doomsday he was trying to save her.

In what way is stranding Rose in a Doctor-free alien universe expressly against her stated wishes 'saving' her?

Whilst in Fathers Day he got in a mood and stalked off again not considering the damage leaving someone from 2005 in the year 1980 with a time phone in her pocket and full knowledge of the worlds events would do.

Oh, Rose knew - and the Doc admitted - that he was bluffing and he was ALWAYS going to come back for her.

who'd want to work for the welsh torchwood, it seems a thoroughly miserable place to be lol.

I don't know about 'miserable' but admittedly the short life expectancy wouldn't exactly qualify as 'fun'.

I'm actually sort of hoping the new Doctor Who is a totally different format that new fans won't like so they will howl in despair and me and all the other old series fans can say 'ha ha now you know how we've been feeling for the past 5 years' lol.

Ha ha ha ha ha! Not a chance in hell! The future is in safe hands!

But never mind, watching a Colin Baker will always have me howling in despair if that's any consolation.

One very good thing with the new daleks is how they react to the doctor, the fear they show of him is priceless gets a laugh out of me every time. i Spose RTD has at least done one thing right lol.

Oh dear god. THAT'S all you've got out of the last five years - the five years that justify the existence of the human race? A few Daleks backing away a bit?

Ok season 1 was only relatively unpopular but still it did take 2 years or so to regain the high viewing figures of the first episode.

I'm sure most programmes NEVER regain the viewing figures of their first episode, where millions of people tune in out of sheer curiousity even if they hate the entire genre. (Actually I'm just hoping - anyone got any stats on this?)

What do you think BlueDoc's doing with Rose right now?

Good question. Part of me shies away from even THINKING about it. Part of me bitterly regrets that RTG didn't go with his original plan of showing us BlueDoc and Rose staring at the sky KNOWING the Tenth Doctor was regenerating. (RTG sounded pretty relieved when He thought of the 2005 thing that would let Him off the hook deciding what the hell they were doing on Pete's World). And part of me firmly announces that Blue Doc isn't THE Doc and the fact THE Doc had to become half-human (or whatever) in order to have sex with the Love Of His Lives suggests that he'd NEVER indulge in such nonsense while he's a Time Lord.

Tell me about it! That's why I avoid even next week's teasers.

Oh my god. THAT is willpower.

Ah. I wonder if they'll ever do a story on how he got that way? You just know the Doctor's got to be involved.

Not necessarily. After all, the Face of Boe said in New Earth that 'We shall meet again for the third time, for the last time' which strongly implies he hadn't met the Doc wihle he was in Face form before End of the World (actually it strongly implies he isn't Captain Jack, but never mind).

the fact THE Doc had to become half-human (or whatever) in order to have sex with the Love Of His Lives

There may be some truth to that. It took "half-human" McGann to start the snogging thing off, although he seems to have cottoned on to it pretty well since then. Perhaps all the real Doctor has to do it try it (again) and he'll be hooked.

the Face of Boe said in New Earth that 'We shall meet again for the third time, for the last time'

He could simply be trying to prevent tipping the Doctor off to previous encounters when he knows this is only the third time so far for him.

Still Adam disappearing and apparently being buried in the bunker then reappearing in England would raise a few eyebrows, plus as he was an ex employee she'd probably want to wipe history or at least make sure he wouldn't blab any secrets. Working that near to van statten was something you did for life so he'd know a lot that she would want kept quiet.

Obama unpopular I hope not, maybe his failure to stop alien invasions hasn't helped his approval ratings.

Still if they'd try to keep a lid on things they might leak but the spoilers I've seen aren't blurry photos or internet rumours they are official press releases and adverts. Your right they did keep the stolen Earth cliff hanger secret but the fact that they hadn't announced a new actor to ply the doc meant we all knew Tenant would still be the doctor. Plus Tennant had already confirmed he'd stay for the specials.

It's quite luck i did forget about the daleks as it would have ruined the surprise.

Well i have got more than scared daleks out of the last 5 years there have been some really good stories even if the plot ends ten minutes before the end and the companion have to scream about something for the next ten.

If by stats you eman viewing ficures I've been using wikipedia.

I assume the face was trying to keep his being Captain Jack secret for some reason.

Obama unpopular I hope not, maybe his failure to stop alien invasions hasn't helped his approval ratings.

Well, 2012 is still a couple of years away, things could change for the better. Here is food for thought, Sarah Palin might run for President then. Imagine her getting in!? Frankly, the Yanks would be better off with The Master.

He could simply be trying to prevent tipping the Doctor off to previous encounters when he knows this is only the third time so far for him.

Why would Boe think the Doctor (of all people!) is incapable of coping with a timey-wimey River Song kind of relationship?

Still Adam disappearing and apparently being buried in the bunker then reappearing in England would raise a few eyebrows, plus as he was an ex employee she'd probably want to wipe history or at least make sure he wouldn't blab any secrets.

Oh, nonsense, she (god, why can't we remember her name? I am NOT going to cheat and look it up) wouldn't have filled in the bunker without checking that the visitors had disappeared as mysteriously as they arrived, and no doubt she'd be grateful they seemed to have removed Adam's irritating face from her sight. And if she IS on some wholesale mission to wipe the minds of everyone connected with Van Statten, she'll soon find herself a homeless, brainless junkie on the streets of 'someplace beginning with "S"'. I don't think she's that stupid.

he'd know a lot that she would want kept quiet.

Not necessarily. She was only introduced to Van Statten in 'Dalek', if anyone blabs about his crimes she's unlikely to be held responsible.

Your right they did keep the stolen Earth cliff hanger secret but the fact that they hadn't announced a new actor to ply the doc meant we all knew Tenant would still be the doctor. Plus Tennant had already confirmed he'd stay for the specials.

I know it was stupid of me but the fact the Doctor was REGENERATING combined with the next episode being called The Next Doctor made me kind of nervous. It's not as if RTG isn't more than capable of lying to us about Tennant being in the Specials, or (admittedly less likely) of keeping the casting of a new Doctor secret, especially if He knew exactly who He wanted and didn't have to bother with auditions.

I assume the face was trying to keep his being Captain Jack secret for some reason.

Yeah, but why? Plus he gave the game away in Last of the Time Lords, though admittedly after a few billion years you MIGHT forget making an offhand comment, even if it WAS to the Doctor...

Sarah Palin might run for President then. Imagine her getting in!? Frankly, the Yanks would be better off with The Master.

Yeah - I know he wasn't THAT great when WE elected him PM, what with the decimation and the slave labour camps and the plans to invade the universe but hey, if it's the Master v Palin I say give the guy a second chance...

Emily - Her name is Goddard...Well, last name anyways, not sure if they gave her a first name (I'm sure they did, I just can't think of it). And no, I didn't cheat. :D

Just watched the Dalek episode so am clued up a bit about Adam, I'n not sure about his actions in the long game but he was set up as a likeable character in this episode. Maybe that's why his fate annoyed me. Godard would have doubtless flown out back to van statten's HQ and gotten all base personnel assigned somewhere else in the organisation. So Adam disappears and she assumes he's done a runner then he crops up again in England, (she would easily find out as I assume they have some Internet surveillance system) she sends someone round for Adam who takes him back to them and he gets rumble about the chip. This scenario is far from unlikely also Van Statten's lot are the last people you'd want with an alien chip as they be the most likely to be able to use it.

Myybe Jack didn't want to give the game away as he knew he was meeting a past version of the doctor to the one he told about being the face of bo. Plus he's probably keeping it quiet that he's a 5 billion year old human.

Her name is Goddard...

GODDARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm SURE she has a first name as well, no brownie points till you remember that too...

he was set up as a likeable character in this episode.

I dunno about 'likeable'...well, maybe a BIT...but bear in mind Adam worked for a torturing magalomaniac, he was gleeful at nearly starting a World War, he inexplicably distracted Rose's attention from the Love Of Her Life, and he left Rose to get exterminated, not that that wasn't ALL THE DOCTOR'S FAULT...

she sends someone round for Adam who takes him back to them and he gets rumble about the chip. This scenario is far from unlikely

It IS unlikely in my opinion. Goddard didn't mess around with alien tech - she BURIED it. Which takes a LOT of willpower, you wouldn't catch ME refusing to play with alien toys just cos one of 'em happened to have exterminated a couple of hundred people...

Myybe Jack didn't want to give the game away as he knew he was meeting a past version of the doctor to the one he told about being the face of bo. Plus he's probably keeping it quiet that he's a 5 billion year old human.

Yeah, there are ways of getting round it, I'm a great believer in the 'Jack is Boe, oh my GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!' scenario, I'm just saying it's not exactly watertight, mainly cos RTG only thought of it AFTER Gridlock was filmed.

Diana Goddard, according to Wikipedia.

All across the universe.
The Doctor chased the Master.
They both knew it was all in good fun
Pop Goes The TARDIS!

Nyssa and Tegan went out to play.
While Adric sulked in his room.
Turlough just moaned about going home.
Pop Goes The TARDIS!

The jelly babies all ran out.
The celery withered away.
The Doctor desparately needed new food.
Pop Goes The TARDIS!

Sarah and Harry were having lunch.
The Brigadier blew things up.
Benton was always clueless
Pop Goes The TARDIS!

The Dalek went on a rampage.
The Cybermen not that far behind
The Sontarans were all left in the dust.
Pop Goes The TARDIS!

Rose and Jack were overjoyed.
Donna was more restrained.
Martha just went all insane.
Pop Goes The TARDIS!

Tim beat me to it! Drat, no brownie points for me. :D

It was Rose's fault that the Dalek got let out. Would you stay and die with a girl you only just met had release d Dalek by touching it despite specifically being told not to and who was responsible of the deaths of hundreds of soldiers. He was only 8 when he nearly started the war and I doubt he was actually going to do it lol.

That's what I meant about her if she found that Adam had the chip in him she'd have him killed as well. I don't think you get to just walk away from a job like that she might have wanted to reward him or employ him herself so she could easily be out looking for him. Whilst this is just both of us speculating I maintain that in a job like that where you go off radar and then inexplicably reapear in England despite not having been picked up by either immigration service questions would be asked. Wouldn't immigration be after him too as by their records he'd stil be in America?

That is the problem of trying to have a serial format in a time traveling show, it really shows if you think of something half way through when you've already done shows set in the future from it. Dalek is probably the best example of this. However all they need to do is say that the doc got the date wrong and that problem evaporates.

So, what you do lot think of my little tune above? Wrote it just for fun

Good tune mate.

Re: Nursery Rhymes
Why do I get this (somewhat deranged) mental image of I.M Weasel & I.R Baboon inside the Tardis, portraying Doctor & assistant respectively...
If so, then is "The Red Guy" playing the role of the Master...?
Oh well...
I.R Baboon does the Victory Dance, because Adric's better than Tegan...

LOL!

Tim beat me to it! Drat, no brownie points for me.

He CHEATED!

Would you stay and die with a girl you only just met had release d Dalek by touching it despite specifically being told not to and who was responsible of the deaths of hundreds of soldiers.

When you put it like that...probably not ;)

He was only 8 when he nearly started the war and I doubt he was actually going to do it lol.

He's a lot older than 8 now and still gleeful instead of guilt-ridden.

I don't think you get to just walk away from a job like that

You don't when Van Statten's in charge. You do when Goddard's in charge. Maybe we should shut up about this particular issue, we're just going round in circles and it's unlikely that The Moff'll resurrect Goddard to interrogate her about her post-Metaltron career and settle the question...

Wouldn't immigration be after him too as by their records he'd stil be in America?

Good god no. British Immigration totally fails to count anyone leaving the country OR entering it. We don't know to the nearest million how many people are crammed onto this small island.

However all they need to do is say that the doc got the date wrong and that problem evaporates.

That's a point! There's nothing other than Eccy's word to say that 'Dalek' couldn't be set in 2005 before aliens really started getting into the Christmas spirit...

So, what you do lot think of my little tune above?

Pleasingly surreal. Especially the bit about Donna being restrained...

Why do I get this (somewhat deranged) mental image of I.M Weasel & I.R Baboon inside the Tardis, portraying Doctor & assistant respectively...

I have NO idea...

Yeah your right, tbh i kind of hope he isn't brought back because the doc will say something like "I did the right thing" or "I didn't think you'd get caught" which would annoy me. If they ever do bring back Adam or Godard they'll be hit by the date problem which they would have to either fix or ignore.

That's another problem with the new series, the old it didn't matter so much but as they're deliberately trying to make this one have a fixed continuity it causes noticeable problems. There was a apparently a tie in website that they put out soon after the episode where they mentioned an 11 or 12 year old Adam winning a prize (the way they spend the budget eh) but that's non cannon and so could be ignored. Maybe they'll just use the standard date issue solver TIME WAR!lol

I think we can agree that despite the docs comments you'd have to be a LOT more careful and withdrawn than just normal or average to avoid detection. Particularly in the more advanced, draconian, alien conscious Doctor Who universe.

it'll be interesting to see how Moffat changes the series, the reason the doc blew up the Tardis was not just becuase they were bigging Tennat up but also so they could change the Tardis, it'll be interestin gto see what other changes he makes, having sort of written oldschool episodes he nmight move things back a bit. Maye we could haev a whole series off Earth it as pointed out that Martha's series had 6 episodes in present day Earth (out of 13 which is pretty poor). If a sandpit in Dorset worked for 25 years or Star Trek used the one set slightly modified) for 15 years they can surely manage to knock something up. Maybe they could afford it by spending less money ontie in websites.

The Tardis is another thing that annoyed me in the new seris what is up with it/ The Tardid never used to wobble so much in flight even though it did sometimes you didn't need to spend the whole trip clutching the console like you do now, or need hammering to work. There was no real need to change absolutely everything for the sake of it. With the exception of the mercifully brief wood paneled disaster (and even then) the Tardis control room has changed very little the only real changes are the holes on the walls being a different shape or the control console having buttons in a slightly different place or the colour or that sort of little thing. But no everything had to change the series had to go eastenders, never leave earth, wipe out the timelords and the doc had to promote himself from "just a traveler" to the lonely god.

Give the kids of today some credit they don't need classic or safe or Eastenders elements to latch on especially they're aiming for the pre teens who are barely getting into any kind of adult drama and don't expect the depth we do. I wouldn't be suprised if most of the teens they do get probably watched the old series or get sucked in by having a dad or sibling who watches it.

Martha's series had 6 episodes in present day Earth (out of 13 which is pretty poor)

Not really:
Smith & Jones - the Moon
Shakespeare Code - 1599
Gridlock - New Earth
Daleks in Manhattan - 1930
Evolution of the Daleks - 1930
Lazarus Experiment - present-day Earth
42 - the Taragi System (sp?)
Human Nature - 1913
Family of Blood - 1913
Blink - present-day Earth
Utopia - end of the Universe
Sound of Drums - present-day Earth
Last of the Time Lords - present-day Earth

That makes 4 episodes or about 30%, comparable to the old series depending which season you pick for comparison. The Moon is arguable, but it's not Earth, even if they did start and end there.

With the exception of the mercifully brief wood paneled disaster

I liked that console room! It had way more atmosphere than the antiseptic hospital waiting area. I wasn't too sure about the current inside-of-an-alien's-stomach version, but it's grown on me. Probably having Davison call it "coral" helped.

I wouldn't be suprised if most of the teens they do get probably watched the old series

I would. If I saw the old series today, after the vastly-improved RTD creations, I'd be bored stiff with the plodding pace and one-dimensional characters. I can't imagine what a teen would think. But then, you're closer to them than I am so what do I know?

Just found the TV tropes article that mentioned the six episodes in London. Misremembered it slightly but here it is.

I quote: •Unfortunately even British writers can fall into this - 6 out of the 13 episodes of series 3 of Doctor Who take place in London; 5 of them in present day London. Which wouldn't be so bad if the characters didn't have the whole of time and space to travel in. Unquote

I assume they are including the moon one and tbh I'm with them on that, especially as they did film in a modern hospital set so even the moon scenes might as well have been in London.

The old series did use modern Earth a fair bit but at least they had the budget excuse, and with them only producing 12 episodes a year now it is FAR more obvious. In the old days there would be between 5 and 9 stories in a season which would be comprised of many individual episodes. In this format even if you did do two or three modern earth stories in a season they would be aired a month apart.

I don't know how much alien planets cost but as they spend no money on props costumes or even alien makeup half the time it can't cost that much, just film in a forest instead of a sandpit or quarry and people won't be so quick to joke. If stargate has gotten away with filming in the same Canadian forest since 1997 doctor who can surely do it.

Daniel, got to disagrees about the old series TARDIS not being reliable. The unreliability of the classic TARDIS was, well, a classic trope of the original series. It wasn't until the 4th Doctor that the TARDIS could be steered reliably, and even then there were many, many exceptions. During the 1st and 2nd Doctor eras, there were explosions, shorts, mercury links overheating, and so on.

Yeah, it's funny, with CGI they can go to alien planets now. They can have scenes that Classic Who could only dream about. Yet, for the most part, they seem to like Earth.

At least during Tennant's era, they did go to other worlds. As I said, when Eccy was the Doctor, they never got beyond the orbit of the Moon. Okay, Rose MENTIONED some adventures they had on other worlds, but that really doesn't count, does it. We didn't see it.

The tardis could be steered reliably by the third doc too. And your right it did have it's faults, explosions etc but it was stable in flight for the most part. The new one isn't stable for a single second of flight. The old one used to hit a time eddy (or sumthing similar) and shake the new one shakes constantly.

That's another problem with the new series, the old it didn't matter so much but as they're deliberately trying to make this one have a fixed continuity it causes noticeable problems.

The new series is certainly more aware of continuity than most of the run-by-loads-of-different-non-Fans, oh-no-one'll-remember-what-that-old-story-said bunch of pre-JNT Old Who-ers. But that's not to say RTG allowed continuity to rob Him of a single idea. If he wanted to have half-a-dozen very public alien invasions before no-one believed in aliens in Dalek...or to screw up the Second Great and Bountiful Human Empire...or River Song...then that's exactly what He did.

I think we can agree that despite the docs comments you'd have to be a LOT more careful and withdrawn than just normal or average to avoid detection.

Yes, we can. But then Adam was almost certainly more withdrawn than normal people anyway. He lived in a bunker, for heaven's sake.

Particularly in the more advanced, draconian, alien conscious Doctor Who universe.

Bear in mind that the entire population seems to be exercising SERIOUS denial amounting to self-hypnosis about the existence of aliens...Adam would probably be more likely to get away with strolling along a street opening and closing his head while yelling 'Look at me!' in the Whoniverse than he would here.

having sort of written oldschool episodes he nmight move things back a bit.

I don't think I'd describe The Moff's timey-whimey sex-mad episodes as 'oldschool', exactly...

If a sandpit in Dorset worked for 25 years or Star Trek used the one set slightly modified) for 15 years they can surely manage to knock something up.

I certainly hope The Moff is a bit less of a perfectionist in this regard than RTG. I'm totally with the Scottish Falsetto Sock Puppets vis-a-vis the wisdom of travelling to a filthy dictatorship halfway across the world in order to film some sand...

Maybe they could afford it by spending less money ontie in websites.

Don't worry, they're a goner. The BBC is being forced to slash half its websites.

The Tardid never used to wobble so much in flight even though it did sometimes you didn't need to spend the whole trip clutching the console like you do now, or need hammering to work.

That makes sense, after the Time War. Alright, so the Doc seldom had time for a TARDIS MOT when back on Gallifrey being condemned to death and fighting off alien invasions, but there must be a REAL problem getting hold of spare parts, these days.

There was no real need to change absolutely everything for the sake of it.

I have no problem whatsoever with remodelling the TARDIS interior. This has a long and honourable history, even if, as you say, they were mostly variations on one theme.

But no everything had to change the series had to go eastenders, never leave earth, wipe out the timelords and the doc had to promote himself from "just a traveler" to the lonely god.

Adding a human dimension to Who (I assume that's what you mean by 'going Eastenders') was both essential and incredibly successful. Never leaving Earth was a mistake they rectified after Season One/Twenty-Seven. Wiping out the Time Lords was utterly inspired. Ditto for the Doctor as Lonely God.

Give the kids of today some credit they don't need classic or safe or Eastenders elements to latch on especially they're aiming for the pre teens who are barely getting into any kind of adult drama and don't expect the depth we do.

I agree. The adult drama is there for us. The burping bins and farting Slitheen are there for the kids.

I liked that console room! It had way more atmosphere than the antiseptic hospital waiting area. I wasn't too sure about the current inside-of-an-alien's-stomach version, but it's grown on me. Probably having Davison call it "coral" helped.

Yup, agree with every word. Though I think the telemovie console room is my favourite.

If I saw the old series today, after the vastly-improved RTD creations, I'd be bored stiff with the plodding pace and one-dimensional characters.

YOU MEAN YOU DON'T WATCH THE OLD SERIES????????????

I'm hardly in a position to complain about giving it a bit of a break once the Shining Glory turned up, but you can't just ABANDON it because of the plodding pace and one-dimensional characters...

with them only producing 12 episodes a year now it is FAR more obvious.

They produce 14 episodes a year!

Yeah, it's funny, with CGI they can go to alien planets now. They can have scenes that Classic Who could only dream about.

Yeah, but have you heard RTG comment on that flying-monsters, stay-with-you-forever scene in Army of Ghosts? People are always asking him why Who can't have alien worlds like that all the time. And he says because it's utterly, staggeringly, prohibitively expensive.

YOU MEAN YOU DON'T WATCH THE OLD SERIES????????????

I'm sorry. I just can't. It's probably the over-long format of the old series, but it drags. I can enjoy most of the Tom Baker classics and some of Davison's era, but the rest kill me.

It's funny. I probably wouldn't have watched the new series but for the old, and now I can't go back. As I said somewhere else, loyalty's a tricky thing.

I'm sorry. I just can't. It's probably the over-long format of the old series, but it drags. I can enjoy most of the Tom Baker classics and some of Davison's era, but the rest kill me.

Whereas I'm the opposite. Now that I've seen newWho in all it's wonderous glory, I find myself trying to find every bit of oldWho I can get my hands on because it's fun to watch it. Yes, sometimes it's long and more drawn out than I'd like, but still fun. I just wish I could find more.

When i said he wrote more old school episodes he wrote the comic relief special the curse of fatal death which showed he knew exactly how to write for the old series even if it was a parody.

I doubt the alien invasions are still being explained away, not after they Dalek invasion. Explaining it away before as drug induced hallucinations was a rubbish excuse, after all with all the CCTV around britain and personal camera's etc there's no way people would believe that. The daleks might not have been noticed at canary warf but the cybermen, no way.

Still the Tardis was still a change for the sake of change would it really in all honesty matter that much if it stayed level in flight.

I spose we'll have to agree to disagree but the doctors new character tramples over the old series at every turn and I know we can excuse that with the destruction of his people but that only happened so they'd have an excuse to change him. A lot of people weren't happy about Tennant fearing his regeneration as they saw straight through it to RTD using it as a metaphor for his departure.

Yeah heard about the beeb slashing website budgets doubt they'll slash the right ones tho. Just had a look and it's 13 eps a year. Still that pales in comparison to the dozens of episodes they used to make.

Whilst it is good that the characters act realistic there are ways to do that without dragging in boyfriends, mothers etc.

If they could have semi decent alien world with a show that was being starved of its budget RTD can bloody well knock up something with his MASSIVE budget, if he can't afford CGI all the time do something else.

How much does CGI cost?

Tim--depends on the effect. Some SFX requires multiple shots and tons of computer time; some, not so much. The price is dropping as computer time becomes cheaper, but it's still not cheap.

Daniel--actually, the 3rd Doctor was terrible at steering the TARDIS. Apart from the times he was being manipulated by the Time Lords (Colony in Space) or following a signal (The Time Warrior), the 3rd Doctor spent most of his post "The Three Doctors" time trying, and failing, to land on Metebelis Three.

As for the Fourth Doctor, who can forget the "This isn't Croydon!" scene from the end of "The Hand of Fear." Most of his other landings were happy accidents, not intentional destinations. Only once he started looking for the key to Time did he start landing where and when he wanted.

It's really not until the 6th Doctor that you get any sort of reliable navigation.

Doc 3 did struggle sometimes but he was the first doctor that could steer it. Hartnel and Troughton didn't have a clue where they were going to land. There were a lot of ocassions where the Doc said I'm going to land at x and they arrived at x.

Whilst old landings were bumpy characters would move around the Tardis normally whilst it was in flight not hang on for dear life.

Most of the time the TARDIS is stable. Even with Donna behind the wheel, it didn't lurch around, nor did it when they were towing Earth back home, nor when the Doctor kidnapped Jackie, and so on. In fact, it's been stable far more than not. The only time I can remember it jerking about for no apparent reason was Martha's first trip to Olde England.

It didn't shake when they towed earth because it had six people steering it despite it working fine for 30 years with just the doc.

It jerks around a lot randomly in flight, now you mention it I have seen it stable but it's not big or clever to to the camera shake effect for no reason.

And whilst the Tardis's changes can be explained away with the time war the big question is WHY??? Why change the series so much that you need to have a war than nearly destroyed the universe to explain the differences, a non psychotic doctor and original Tardis wouldn't cause the kids of today to turn off. The thing is it's supposed to be a continuation, there was no need to change things to break with the old series which is what his changes seem like to me.

Daniel--again, not really. The 1st Doctor finally admitted in "The Dalek Masterplan" that he couldn't steer the TARDIS because it was missing some parts. He was able to steer it correctly once by using a part stolen from the Monk.

The 2nd Doctor has some retroactive adventures showing him with some steering abilities. He claims to have been able to steer it correctly in "The Five Doctors", and by the time of "The Two Doctors", he had a remote control.

As for bumpy flights, point your eyes towards "The Edge of Destruction", "The Wheel in Space", "The Mind Robber", "The Pirate Planet", "The Armageddon Factor", "Time-Flight", "Terminus", "Frontios", "Vengenance on Varos", "Timelash", and "Time and the Rani", all of which had bumpy rides.

It jerks around a lot randomly in flight, now you mention it I have seen it stable but it's not big or clever to to the camera shake effect for no reason.

Aside from the aforementioned trip to see Shakespeare, name the other times the TARDIS has shaken without reason.

I think your memories of the old series are somewhat selective. Many of the things you point to as different are respresented to varying degrees in both.

And what makes you think the Doctor is psychotic?

Exactly that's what i was saying Doc one and two couldn't steer the Tardis, largely becuase it seemed to be broken as they stole a missing part from the monks tadris to steer it.

I haven't re watched much but whenever the doc hits it with a hammer it's shaking. I'm pretty sure it was lousy in the stolen earth before it had all six people steering it. I do have strong memories of Rose being thrown about.

Maybe psychotic was the wrong word but Tennant had a real dark side when I think about it, bringing down Harriet Jones, writing off her parallel self, what he did to the family of blood, the Time Lord victorious, Eccy's abandonment of Adam, Rose, and leaving Jack in the future.

To give Pertwee his due, he managed to materialise the TARDIS inside the freighter it was about to collide with. I believe this is the first time we ever see the Doctor materialise somewhere with an intention.

Barring, of course, the offscreen and ever-so-slight possibility that he got the Master of the Land of Fiction home as promised.

Still, there's always been problems, and the randomiser was a really unnecessary plot device.

As for "The Mind Robber", we only assume he returned the Master of the Land of Fiction to his home; it's never shown on screen (he could have gotten the "this isn't Croyden!" treatment). There is also the fan theory that everything from episode 2 to the end of episode 4 was a fantasy that happened in the Doctor's mind. If this is true, the MofLoF was a figment of the Doctor's imagination.

He materialised around the Master's Tardis first, granted he made a small mistake so they were both inside each other but it was sort of what he was trying to do.

I haven't re watched much but whenever the doc hits it with a hammer it's shaking

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? I would think the TARDIS was shaking because it was being hit with a hammer, as in Tooth & Claw.

I'm pretty sure it was lousy in the stolen earth before it had all six people steering it.

No, it was fine, unless you count the difficulty it had finding the Daleks in the Medusa Cascade, which is actually a very odd thing since all it had to do was TRAVEL IN TIME to do so.

I do have strong memories of Rose being thrown about.

Just Tooth & Claw that I've seen.

Maybe psychotic was the wrong word but Tennant had a real dark side when I think about it

Uh... have you seen any Colin Baker stories?

Colin Baker was suffering post regenerative trauma and he had calmed down by Trial of a Time Lord.

Every incarnation of the Doctor has a dark side. That's part of his character.

Daniel, I think you're referring to "The Time Monster", not "The Mind Robber."

Yeah wasn't that ep before the mind robber?

No, The Mind Robber was a Troughton story and The Time Monster was a Pertwee story. The Master in The Mind Robber is not the Time Lord Master we're more familiar with.

Still, Daniel's right that it's an earlier instance of the Doctor intentionally and successfully materialising the TARDIS somewhere than in Frontier in Space as I suggested.

(I think. I haven't seen Time Monster since the 80s but the DVD will be out soon.)

Ah lol haven't seen many black and white stories other than the dalek ones they never repeat them. Am pretty sure the DVD is out now even if it isn't the whole story was on youtube a while ago it might be again by now.

YOU MEAN YOU DON'T WATCH THE OLD SERIES????????????

I'm sorry. I just can't. It's probably the over-long format of the old series, but it drags. I can enjoy most of the Tom Baker classics and some of Davison's era, but the rest kill me.

This is a terrible, terrible tragedy. I'm not recommending The Web Planet or anything, but there is tremendous stuff in ALMOST all Old Who, even the stories that makes you feel you'll be dead of old age before they finally have the decency to grind to a halt (I'm thinking War Games here, obviously). Could you not try one episode a night? Even if you just keep half an eye on the screen, while petting the cat/doing some housework/surfing the Net etc?

And come on! Daemons! Curse of Fenric! Terror of the Autons! Survival! There are some fantastic and snappy three- and four-episode stuff out there that isn't Tom Baker/Davison.

Whereas I'm the opposite. Now that I've seen newWho in all it's wonderous glory, I find myself trying to find every bit of oldWho I can get my hands on because it's fun to watch it.

Ah, now THERE'S a good and healthy attitude!

Mind you, I find it almost equally incomprehensible. Going from Old to New Who is natural evolution - I'd've had real problems doing things the other way round.

When i said he wrote more old school episodes he wrote the comic relief special the curse of fatal death which showed he knew exactly how to write for the old series even if it was a parody.

That merely proved that Moffat was extremely capable of affectionately taking the •••• out of Old Who.

I doubt the alien invasions are still being explained away, not after they Dalek invasion. Explaining it away before as drug induced hallucinations was a rubbish excuse, after all with all the CCTV around britain and personal camera's etc there's no way people would believe that.

There are hundreds of millions - if not billions - of people who don't believe in evolution. Dismissing large pepper-pots swooping through the planet-infested skies shrieking 'Exterminearan' would be a doddle in comparison.

Still...those thickos on the Planet of the Dead bus did seem to accept the existence of Daleks, so maybe you're right, and there's hope for the human race yet.

the doctors new character tramples over the old series at every turn

Eccy n'Tennant were the ESSENCE of Doctorishness, the ULTIMATE Doctors, the One True Doctor(s) of whom all the previous ones were merely aspects. They WERE the Doctor! Everything that was best about him distilled into hitherto unsuspected heights of wonderfulness, and everything that was Colin Bakerish about him consigned to the dustbin of history.

A lot of people weren't happy about Tennant fearing his regeneration as they saw straight through it to RTD using it as a metaphor for his departure.

Tough.

Frankly I think End of Time got it right and all the other regenerations (bar Eccy's - the theme of 'death' was strongly hinted at even if he took it a lot more bravely) got it wrong.

Whilst it is good that the characters act realistic there are ways to do that without dragging in boyfriends, mothers etc.

Yeah, but when the boyfriends, mothers etc in question are wonderful - Mickey-the-idiot, Jackie, Pete, Wilf, even Sylvia, at least in Turn Left - WHY do without them?

If they could have semi decent alien world with a show that was being starved of its budget RTD can bloody well knock up something with his MASSIVE budget, if he can't afford CGI all the time do something else.

Agreed. There are disadvantages to RTG being such a perfectionist.

There were a lot of ocassions where the Doc said I'm going to land at x and they arrived at x.

Sorry, what exactly are you complaining about? The new series Doctors get where they want to go a bit over 50% of the time, similar to previous (post-useless-Hartnell-and-Troughton) Doctors.

Whilst old landings were bumpy characters would move around the Tardis normally whilst it was in flight not hang on for dear life.

Go watch 'em whip out the TARDIS seatbelts in Timelash. And THEN complain if New Series crews have to hang onto the console quite a lot.

I do have strong memories of Rose being thrown about.

She was giggling on the TARDIS floor ONCE with Eccy and ONCE with Tennant. I don't see why this is a cause for complaint. What I wouldn't give...

Maybe psychotic was the wrong word but Tennant had a real dark side when I think about it, bringing down Harriet Jones, writing off her parallel self, what he did to the family of blood, the Time Lord victorious, Eccy's abandonment of Adam, Rose, and leaving Jack in the future.

Harriet Jones had just genocided a defeated and retreating enemy! You could argue that it would have been a lot darker of the Doctor to give her a congratulatory high-five instead.

He made one sarcastic remark about Harriet's parallel self! Nothing wrong with bearing a bit of a grudge, providing he's suitably guilt-stricken when she sacrifices her life...as indeed he is.

The Family of Blood wanted to live forever. The Doctor ensured they did.

The Time Lord Victorious (the one who was desperately trying to save lives instead of leaving people to die) lasted all of five minutes before he was on his knees sobbing.

The Doc's 'abandonment' of Adam we've already gone into in enormous depth.

What abandonment of Rose?

Yeah, the Captain Jack thing was unforgivable....except that Jack forgave him. And he DID have his own Vortex Manipulator, after all.

Colin Baker was suffering post regenerative trauma and he had calmed down by Trial of a Time Lord.

That's an ENTIRE ******* SEASON of post-regenerative trauma!!!!

Could you not try one episode a night? Even if you just keep half an eye on the screen, while petting the cat/doing some housework/surfing the Net etc?

I don't have copies of them on hand, just the new series.

Good god. That never even OCCURRED to me.

You can see Daleks and cybermen and you can watch them again and again on youtube after the alien invasion is over. You could potentially belive the cybermen were an hallucination the first time round but everyone having the same hallucination and the smashed in doors makes you an idiot if you belive that but seeing the same hallucination again on film would make you question the governments official policy. Not to mention the people mysteriously dead with laser burns or no visible signs of injury. It was a bad idea to say people didn't belive in aliens after that but if they did it again after the Daleks plan they would veer into unbelievability. I know the brig kept a fair few things secret but they didn't include Earth moving and millions of people being taken aboard the Death Star, I mean crucible.

We can agree to disagree over regenerations but when something has been done the same way ten times before that might be a sign that it should only be done one way IE a normal story (normally a very good story) with a regeneration at the end. Even Eccy a new series doc had a 'classic' regeneration.

Tom Baker is THE DOCTOR not even Tennant can beat him. At least he didn't have I'm so so sorry as a catchphrase.

Harriet Jones wiped out a group of INTERGALACTIC SLAVE TRADERS who had shown their word was worth nothing after their leader attacked the doctor after being beaten in honourable combat and would have enslaved another planet even if they did leave Earth. The Doc sacrificed England's golden age and let the master take it over because of his EGO? Hardly the defender of the Earth. It also wasn't genocide that was a military ship after all.

My point about Adam being abandoned was the doc didn't think his actions through and risked the timeline and Adams life because of his anger.

Yeah your right about Baker he was very unpopular however because of executive meddling they didn't have the time to turn him round like they planned to. Also this darker and edgier doctor was the least popular of the old series tell you something?

What I meant when I said about the doc being able to steer the tardis was someone said the old docs couldn't steer it and I was saying yes they could be doc 3.

He left Rose in fathers day. The time lord victorious was still out of character. TBH A much better idea would have been a reboot, start again at doc one in the modern day get all different actors to play Ian Susan and Barbra then you could justify the doc suddenly acting totally different. Also it would make them going through docs so quickly a much smaller problem.

I don't dislike the fact that the series has got darker and edgier, Doc 9 raging in Dalek was brilliant but he was dark under terrible stress and meeting his version of Hitler, that would be fine but they were moody sods the rest of the time too. It has to be done right and I feel it's been done wrong a lot as in they're not always working in darker and edgier they're just tacking it on over the top.

You can see Daleks and cybermen and you can watch them again and again on youtube after the alien invasion is over. You could potentially belive the cybermen were an hallucination the first time round but everyone having the same hallucination and the smashed in doors makes you an idiot if you belive that but seeing the same hallucination again on film would make you question the governments official policy. Not to mention the people mysteriously dead with laser burns or no visible signs of injury. It was a bad idea to say people didn't belive in aliens after that but if they did it again after the Daleks plan they would veer into unbelievability. I know the brig kept a fair few things secret but they didn't include Earth moving and millions of people being taken aboard the Death Star, I mean crucible.

Have to agree with Danny here. It was easier to get away with covering things like this up thirty years ago. But in today's Internet world, forget it. Heck, if stuff can get out on the Net from North Korea, one of the most closed off countries there is, then stuff getting out of Britain would be childs play.

People believe what they want to believe. There are people that don't believe the Holocaust happened, or that humans landed on the Moon, despite mountains of proof and eyewitnesses. I read the other day that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the President of Iran, was telling his people that the attacks on the World Trade Center never happened.

Never underestimate the power of the human mind, and its ability to reshape reality.

Why does everyone think any of these alien invasions were covered up? You all talk as if this were an X-Files story. Aliens in London hasn't been a secret since Christmas Invasion, as evidenced by Wilf trying to sell papers in a deserted London. There are always going to be those who don't want to believe (Sylvia), but she can't have been in the majority.

Apparently the government covered it up I think RTD confirmed it in a behind the scenes interview that's how you get half the facts about any series these days.

Whilst by the Voyage of the Damned it seems to no longer be a secret thats was not least because the Master publicly made contact with aliens so a confirmation by the government convinced a lot more people (slightly contradicted by the fact that the government had confirmed it before and no one believed it). They also had the star in London, even if they didn't belive it was aliens they had had stuff happening in London for three Christmases in a row so they left anyway.

Whilst there would be those who refused to belive after the cybermen they would be seen as nutters. Part of the reason people don't belive in the moon landings are that sci fi portrays space in an unrealistic way and that's how people think it should behave. Also space physics are different to Earth physics so people think they messed up when in fact thats how they are (I watched the myth busters on it). The idea that someone like Gwen and her boyfriend wouldn't belive is a terrible mistake also try something more creative than drugs in the water you don't have the same hallucination.

BTW Amanda try YouTube for old series episodes, haven't looked for them for a while but I know you can still get some on Daily Motion like the green death and I watched tomb of the cybermen on YouTube a few months ago.

Apparently the government covered it up I think RTD confirmed it in a behind the scenes interview

I could see covering up the Pig from Space, but I doubt the govt could say anything remotely credible enough to convince London it didn't see a huge spaceship hovering over the city with 1/3 of the population standing on the roof....

I've used youtube to watch a few things that I couldn't get any other way, like Confidentials and specials, but I find it tedious. You have to find the next installment every 10 mins and they splash ads on these things now. Hulu is better, but it doesn't carry DW.

Hmm you should be able to find an unnoficial upload somewhere they don't have the ads and it's normally pretty easy to find the next part. Try searching using just the episode title rather than Doctor Who and the episode title. It's a trick used to keep them hidden.

It wasn't the spaceship hovering over London they covered up it was the cybermen and the battle of canary wharf.

That has even less chance of being covered up! Cybermen all over the world?

I remember in Terror Of The Zygons in which the Brigadier said the whole thing was now an offical secret, it "never happened". Never mind that the Loch Ness Monster came to London, one of the most populated cities in the world and God knows how many people saw it. Even the Brig thought that was silly.

Don't forget Torchwood has access to Retcon (or whatever it's called), the drug that erases your memory. They could be dumping it in the drinking water after alien events.

Back in the old days, when UNIT was just a bunch of soldiers in the London suburbs, the Brig had the authority to to issue a D-notice, which prohibits the newspapers from publishing articles about sensitive (i.e., top secret) items. Perhaps the more robusts 21st century UNIT has wider ranging powers. Remember the snide comment by the UNIT officer in "The Christmas Invasion" about the real color of Martians? The scientist he was snarking was involved in a multi-billion pound project to explore Mars, and he had no idea that we'd already encountered Martians.

They could be dumping it in the drinking water after alien events.

Worldwide? And even if it was just Britain, there have got to be millions of people on private wells.

You can cover something up if people learn about it through media, but if most of the population sees it firsthand, that defies belief. And why cover it up anyway? Doesn't make the threat go away, and the more people get used to the real status of things, the less likely they are to panic when it flairs up (again). Knowledge is power.

I spose if they banned mention of the monster from the media it would only have spread by word of mouth and with no little chance of pics being taken there wouldn't be much proof.

The official cybermen story is something happened but it was a terrorists putting drugs in the water that caused everyone to hallucinate. Of course this falls apart as people don't have identicle hillucinations and there would be photos and videos laser blast damage a few bits left over from the converted torchwood staff etc. Plus in this modern day of YouTube there'd be camera footage on YouTube within minutes.

You can see Daleks and cybermen and you can watch them again and again on youtube after the alien invasion is over.

Wouldn't anyone seeking to film the Daleks or Cybermen promptly get 'Maximum Extermination!/Deletion!'? Not all aliens are as keen to pose for the camera as the Doctor in The Invasion, or that Slitheen in World War Three...

You could potentially belive the cybermen were an hallucination the first time round but everyone having the same hallucination and the smashed in doors makes you an idiot if you belive that

People get their doors smashed in all the time. It's called crime. People are also generally idiots (or 'stupid apes' as Eccy so succinctly put it). I suppose - given the ghosts all over real life AND the media for months - everyone may just have decided that the Cybermen were big, metal, embarrassing ghosts the least said about the better, especially given that they were all claiming said ghosts were Granddad Prentice and suchlike...

I know the brig kept a fair few things secret but they didn't include Earth moving and millions of people being taken aboard the Death Star, I mean crucible.

But they DID include the whole of London being evacuated. For weeks. TWICE.

Plus it was only a few dozen people aboard the Crucible.

We can agree to disagree over regenerations but when something has been done the same way ten times before that might be a sign that it should only be done one way IE a normal story (normally a very good story) with a regeneration at the end.

I disagree - Logopolis was permeated throughout by a funereal air of impending doom.

As it happens, that makes Logopolis boring as hell, but hey, there's no denying it was a regeneration story from start to finish...even Tennant didn't have a WATCHER....

Tom Baker is THE DOCTOR not even Tennant can beat him. At least he didn't have I'm so so sorry as a catchphrase.

No - he had 'Would you like a jelly-baby?' It isn't necessarily an improvement...

...Look, I applaud your love for Tom. Five years on and I still can't believe what a treacherous slut I am, betraying him for Eccy AND Tennant. But believe me, if they WEREN'T even more impossibly fantastic than Tom I'd be the last person to start claiming they were.

Harriet Jones wiped out a group of INTERGALACTIC SLAVE TRADERS who had shown their word was worth nothing after their leader attacked the doctor after being beaten in honourable combat and would have enslaved another planet even if they did leave Earth.

Hear, hear...well, except technically speaking the Sycorax only promised to leave Earth alone and the leader attacking the Doctor behind his back didn't break that promise. And the Doctor cheated in the duel too, regrowing that hand...

Anyway, yes I agree that Harriet was in the right. But how magnificent of the Doctor to care SO much about human...er...sentient rights that he reacted so strongly against her behaviour. Even if it was obviously part of his post-regenerative trauma. (I mean, let's face it...he ISN'T a 'No second chances' sort of a man. He's a 'Why don't I KILL myself to give any genocidal Tom, Dick or Harry a second chance' sort of a man.) And if you're allowing Colin an ENTIRE YEAR of post-regenerative trauma before calming down, you've gotta allow Tennant ONE HOUR.

The Doc sacrificed England's golden age and let the master take it over because of his EGO? Hardly the defender of the Earth.

It wasn't his ego, it was his principles.

And he didn't know the Master would be taking over. And blaming him is speculation rather than canon, as RTG cut the line about it being this action of the Doctor's that allowed the Master to break in and take over. Let's face it, he's THE MASTER and if the Doc hadn't got rid of Harriet he'd've done it himself - said 'I know who you are' and swatted her like a fly.

And bear in mind that if the Doc HADN'T ejected Harriet from power, she'd never have got Mr Copper to develop the Subwave Network and got the Doc to the Medusa Cascade in time to stop the destruction of EVERY UNIVERSE EVER. Don't tell me the Doc wasn't at least subconsciously aware of this when he hit her with his six words. After all, he CAN see what is, what will be, what must not, the whole of time and space etc etc (Parting of the Ways, Fires of Pompeii, Forest of the Dead)...(Now, if you want to complain about how THAT sort of nonsense never went on during the old series I might be forced to agree with you...)

It also wasn't genocide that was a military ship after all.

Things aren't quite that clear-cut. In Britain we're still arguing about whether it was acceptable to sink the Argentine warship Belgrano...when it was in retreat. (Falklands War, 1982.)

My point about Adam being abandoned was the doc didn't think his actions through and risked the timeline and Adams life because of his anger.

And MY point is that the risk was minimal and Adam was asking for it.

Yeah your right about Baker he was very unpopular however because of executive meddling they didn't have the time to turn him round like they planned to. Also this darker and edgier doctor was the least popular of the old series tell you something?

Yeah, it tells you that if you're gonna do a darker and edgier Doctor, a) get good actors, and b) write good scripts.

What I meant when I said about the doc being able to steer the tardis was someone said the old docs couldn't steer it and I was saying yes they could be doc 3.

Ah! I KNEW there was a point behind that conversation, I just couldn't work out what it was...

He left Rose in fathers day.

He did NOT! He PRETENDED to leave Rose, but as Rose was perfectly aware at the time, AND as he later admitted, Eccy would never ACTUALLY have left her.

The time lord victorious was still out of character.

It was OUT OF CHARACTER for THE DOCTOR to break the rules to save lives? It was out of character for a man who'd had 900 years of violence and five years of relentless, unspeakable losses to snap? It was out of character for the supreme being of the universe to, for two minutes, look down on other races?

The only non-realistic thing about the Time Lord Victorious was how long it took the Doctor to turn into him.

A much better idea would have been a reboot

OVER - MY - DEAD - BODY.

I thank God (Russell T God, obviously) on a daily basis not only for bringing Who back into my life (well, not that it ever went away...for bringing Who back to the human race, then) and not only for bringing it back a thousand times better than ever, but for bringing it back, unmistakably, AS WHO not as some godawful blasphemous parody of a REBOOT.

start again at doc one in the modern day get all different actors to play Ian Susan and Barbra then you could justify the doc suddenly acting totally different. Also it would make them going through docs so quickly a much smaller problem.

Ugg, ugg, ugg! Unspeakable abomination of an idea!

And anyway, new series Docs leading pathetic mayfly lives isn't a PROBLEM per se. Well, obviously it is for ME, it's my heart that gets thoroughly stomped on every time, but Doctor Who itself just goes from strength to strength...

I don't dislike the fact that the series has got darker and edgier, Doc 9 raging in Dalek was brilliant but he was dark under terrible stress and meeting his version of Hitler, that would be fine but they were moody sods the rest of the time too.

On the one hand, I'm tempted to agree because Eccy n'Tennant being moody sods was the best thing that's ever happened to me. And, more importantly, to Doctor Who. On the other hand, they also displayed more joy than their eight predecessors put together.

It has to be done right and I feel it's been done wrong a lot as in they're not always working in darker and edgier they're just tacking it on over the top.

Interesting. I always felt that the Doctors' joy - whilst entirely genuine - was, if not exactly 'tacked on', always floating over an ocean of pain. And there hasn't been a moment when ANY emotion from EITHER of the new series Doctors has felt insincere. If only Colin had been HALF the actor they are, he might even have managed to salvage something from THAT particular misguided attempt at being dark n'edgy.

People believe what they want to believe. There are people that don't believe the Holocaust happened, or that humans landed on the Moon, despite mountains of proof and eyewitnesses. I read the other day that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the President of Iran, was telling his people that the attacks on the World Trade Center never happened.

Never underestimate the power of the human mind, and its ability to reshape reality.

Hear, hear. If people want to remain 'tiny and made of clay' as Eccy put it, they will. The real question is WHY. Aliens wouldn't even specifically contradict any religious doctrine that I know of. And if people adopted an 'aliens are all invading scum, just pretend they don't exist and hope they go away' attitude, it would be almost understandable in the circumstances, but the very people who are THRILLED to discover that aliens exist - Gwen and Rhys - are the very people who are muttering gibberish about drugs in the water supply till they're blue in the face. (Hell, even CLIVE doesn't REALLY believe the Doctor's real until - tee hee - it's too late...)

Why does everyone think any of these alien invasions were covered up? You all talk as if this were an X-Files story.

Actually I'm not convinced it was the fault of the Government...maybe it was the Government actually coming out and ADMITTING that aliens existed that lead to all the conspiracy theorists screaming 'NO THEY DON'T!'...?

Aliens in London hasn't been a secret since Christmas Invasion, as evidenced by Wilf trying to sell papers in a deserted London.

The evidence is somewhat conflicting. I mean, even the deserted-London-for-the-Voyage-of-the-Damned-Christmas was later totally contradicted by the fully-populated-London-that-was-wiped-out-by-the-Titanic in Turn Left...

Just take Christmas Invasion. The only way a humble backbencher like Harriet became PM was because she defeated an alien invasion (alright...told the Doc to defeat an alien invasion. Whatever). And yet her autobiography detailing this was banned by an Act of Parliament. When the Sycorax appeared on the world's TV screens she was party to a ludicrous cover-up. Yet shortly afterwards she was appealing on live TV for an alien to come and save their skins. And she was overthrown both because of question marks over her health (presumably people were suggesting she was a nutcase for talking about aliens) AND because she had 'blood on her hands' - i.e. many people accepted she'd blown said aliens sky-high.

Yes, alright, I'm in a state of confusion. And so's the Whoniverse. Yup, there's no denying Old Who handled this problem better by NOT having a blatantly obvious alien invasion of modern-day Earth every couple of months. RTG should probably have had an alien-accepting Earth after Christmas Invasion at the absolute latest. But it would have been a major wedge driven between THAT Earth and the planet his viewers are stuck on.

Apparently the government covered it up I think RTD confirmed it in a behind the scenes interview that's how you get half the facts about any series these days.

A slight exaggeration - it's in the BBC Charter that EVERYTHING important goes in the actual programme and not the optional extras.

Whilst by the Voyage of the Damned it seems to no longer be a secret thats was not least because the Master publicly made contact with aliens so a confirmation by the government convinced a lot more people (slightly contradicted by the fact that the government had confirmed it before and no one believed it).

But the Master hypnotised - sorry, Archangel Networked - everyone. When that went, maybe the belief in aliens did too.

The idea that someone like Gwen and her boyfriend wouldn't belive is a terrible mistake

To be fair - they ARE Welsh. They simply wouldn't see repeated alien invasions of London as anything to do with THEM. (Plus, let's face it - they're REALLY stupid.)

Don't forget Torchwood has access to Retcon (or whatever it's called), the drug that erases your memory. They could be dumping it in the drinking water after alien events.

But they aren't. Not that I'd've put that sort of behaviour past Yvonne, but Torchwood made it clear it was Captain Jack who invented it, and handed it out in pill form on an individual basis. They Keep Killing Suzie got Torchwood scared it would make everyone psychotic, but that was the 2,008 people they'd handed it to - they definitely didn't slip it into the water supply.

Back in the old days, when UNIT was just a bunch of soldiers in the London suburbs, the Brig had the authority to to issue a D-notice, which prohibits the newspapers from publishing articles about sensitive (i.e., top secret) items. Perhaps the more robusts 21st century UNIT has wider ranging powers.

True, but blatant amateurs like Clive, Mickey-the-idiot and LINDA were allowed to blunder on their merry way across the Internet unmolested...even the Doctor creating a virus that destroyed all on-line mention of him had little if any effect...

Remember the snide comment by the UNIT officer in "The Christmas Invasion" about the real color of Martians? The scientist he was snarking was involved in a multi-billion pound project to explore Mars, and he had no idea that we'd already encountered Martians.

Come to think of it...how would UNIT know what Martians looked like anyway? Weren't all the Ice Warrior invasions later? Was he thinking of the Ambassadors?

Worldwide? And even if it was just Britain, there have got to be millions of people on private wells.

I think we're almost all connected to a PROPER water supply, these days...

You can cover something up if people learn about it through media, but if most of the population sees it firsthand, that defies belief.

Actually, experiments have proven that humans tend to believe what they're repeatedly told above what they actually experience.

And why cover it up anyway? Doesn't make the threat go away, and the more people get used to the real status of things, the less likely they are to panic when it flairs up (again). Knowledge is power.

True, which is why I think it's more a grassroots- than Government-led denial campaign.

The official cybermen story is something happened but it was a terrorists putting drugs in the water that caused everyone to hallucinate.

Actually Gwen said that was her boyfriend's explanation rather than the official one.

Actually, experiments have proven that humans tend to believe what they're repeatedly told above what they actually experience.

Really? What experiments? Doublethink will only take you so far.

We don't know if they covered up the evacuation of of London doubtless they don't acknowledge what really happened but the yeti's could be fobbed off as people in costumes quite easily and the dinosaurs could be argued to be something else, maybe not many people saw them. Still it is a stretch that people didn't belive it but the Auntons were the least likely thing for the brig to keep secret they came to life over most of Britain, at least the second time it was only the one shopping centre, and the gun battles in the streets would leave a ton of evidence, also one or two auntons would be nicked to be used as evidence.

There was actually physical evidence of the cybermen being there like the doors if you were told the robot smashing down everybody's doors seen by the entire UK population wasn't real you might wonder why everyone's door was still kicked in exactly how you hallucinate it with nothing stolen and no one having seen a single criminal.

Still according to RTD the battle of Canary wharf and the cybermen were denied by the governments of the world, that's after they've admitted aliens and whilst it's easy to deny what you haven't seen almost all of the UK saw the cybermen with their own eyes, no one who saw the WTC towers fall with their eyes would say it didn't happen, in fact all conspiracy theory about that revolve around planned detonations father than then still being there. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad only says that (and the holocaust) didn't happen because he hates America and Israel and like to annoy them rather than he genuinely believes it. People denying aliens is one of the biggest mistakes RTD made, they could have just made it a few people who were laughed at by the rest.

I might allow Tennat his hour of post regenerative trauma but as you said he had no regrets not even when he was told the other England was enjoying it's golden age largely thanks to president Harriet Jones.

The doc didn't exactly cheat by regrowing his hand he could have held his sword in his other hand, the Belgrano is only really contested by the Argentinians, plus after it was sunk the entire Argentinian fleet returned to port and never bothered the UK forces again kind of like how the a bomb can be justified as how so many more would have died in a long and bloody conquest of Japan.

I assume her autobiography was banned A to screw her over and B because she would have told the secret stuff that they've known about aliens for years before the xmas invasion, they have torchwood, they were running around like headless chickens etc.

As for Adam ok the risk may be small but I'd rather the defender of the universe didn't risk the timeline on people not clicking their fingers at the wrong time.

We don't know how many people were actually killed in London,it could have been almost empty but without it we would be totally screwed, it's the only part of the UK that makes any money and it wouldn't surprise me if the government stayed for PR reasons. Plus maybe it was radiation spreading over the south east that killed the most people.

I think you'll find the definition of important is a debatable thing after all Jack being the face of BO or the new cybermen being impervious to gold is important but we needed behind the scenes interviews to find it out.

So after arc angel everyone believes in aliens well that's one good thing he did, if the writers kept saying that no one believed in them I might have to throw things at the TV lol.

I'll agree with that I barely watch Torchwood and Gwen is an idiot, in fact they're all idiots.

I doubt you could put retcon in the water because then with the evidence still knocking around it would look even more suspicious and the secret services would forget the need to destroy said evidence.

Even with wide ranging powers the Internet is tricky to police, child porn is one of the few universally recognised crimes with every police force and Internet user in the world against it but it still happens. The Doc doesn't need to be hidden from your average net user or policeman and unit is far to busy saving the world to police the net.

I think there have been expanded universe encounters with the Martians, also maybe the doc told them what Ice Warriors look like.

Logopolis didn't really have much of a funeral air, granted he did have the watcher but he just brushed him off and focused on the matter at hand he wasn't banging on about his upcoming regeneration we didn't have a clue it was coming the watcher wasn't stated to be for the docs regeneration until it happened. Also doc 4 did more years and more stories than Tennant he was also pretty popular without the fan girls gushing over him (I know sexist but it's true). The caves of Androzani was far more a regeneration story but still we assumed that he'd get the antidote at the end.

I still maintain "would you like a jelly baby" is a better catchphrase. "Would you like a jelly baby" = quirky doctor. "I'm sorry, I'm so so sorry" = Rolf Harris on Animal hospital. Hardly Doctor who material. The idea of the doc suddenly noticed everyone dies around him is bit lousy. Yes it is true but few series hold up when characters start constantly making a big thing about their themes, would eastenders last if every episode the characters moaned about ridiculously dramatic plots.

Thing about a reboot and dark and edgy being tacked on is after 30 years of not dark and edgy and suddenly stumbling into it it seems tacked on. And sometimes even in the episode like when the doc overthrew Jones and sacrifice England's golden age A reboot would stop people like me asking what is up with everyone suddenly and thy could justify the doc acting weird. Thing is it is just too different, for you Kylie's resurrection in voyage of the damned was too far, my too far was a long time before. They've tried to make it part sci fi, part soap. Ad this is a very tough balance, Defying gravity tired to be both and was too sci fi for saop fans and too soapy for sci fi fans. If Tennant hadn't grabbed the teen girl population they might have had to have a rethink abotu how they wrote it. There are a lot of things they've done old fans truly detest, out of those I know who watch the old series it's just me and my dad who have bothered with the new and I'm technically an ex fan until the new series starts and might become one again. This sounds harsh but random extra is dead I DON'T CARE!! I HAVE NOT THE SLIGHTEST INTEREST IN HOW SO SORRY THE DOC IS OR THAT EVERYONE IS SORRY OR THAT THE DOC IS TIME FILLING BY RESERECTING DEAD PEOPLE OR THAT ROSE IS SPLITTING UP WITH HER BOYFRIEND THE PLOT IS SAVE X FROM ENEMY Y NOTHING ELSE. I can't quite put my beef with it into words but I think you hav egotten where i'm coming from by now. Rant over lol.

As for important things being in the program being in the charter what you and I call important and what RTD calls important isn't the same. Jack being the face of BO and Gold not killing new cybermen is important but you need to look behind the scenes to know.

Actually, experiments have proven that humans tend to believe what they're repeatedly told above what they actually experience.

Really? What experiments? Doublethink will only take you so far.

The one that sticks in my mind is along the lines of feeding a group of people a disgusting, sickly, lukewarm drink and then bombarding them with adverts about how cool and deliciously refreshing it was. And then watching them tick the 'cool and deliciously refreshing' box on the evaluation...Of course, I'd be less convinced if something similar hadn't happened to ME, viz, my astonishment every time I see Vengeance on Varos that Colin doesn't actually, technically speaking, throw anyone into an acid bath...

We don't know if they covered up the evacuation of of London doubtless they don't acknowledge what really happened but the yeti's could be fobbed off as people in costumes quite easily

Is that what you'd do if you were in Government? Instead of saying 'Come back to London, everyone, we've single-handedly defeated the world-threatening alien menace!' you'd say 'Er...could several million Londoners please return from whippet-land, it turns out it was all a false alarm thanks to a couple of blokes in furry costumes, we apologise for any inconvenience...'??

and the dinosaurs could be argued to be something else, maybe not many people saw them.

Yeah, but what sort of 'something else' would explain the evacuation of Greater London?

Still it is a stretch that people didn't belive it but the Auntons were the least likely thing for the brig to keep secret they came to life over most of Britain, at least the second time it was only the one shopping centre

Terror of the Autons was only one shopping centre? Do you mean third one (in which case, it was a lot more than one shopping centre, we just happened to SEE that bit of it).

and the gun battles in the streets would leave a ton of evidence, also one or two auntons would be nicked to be used as evidence.

Well, at least the Government cover-up would stand a good chance of pretending that Autons were just shop dummies. Mainly because Autons WERE just shop dummies. They could have tried blaming consumerism for making them walk and kill people.

There was actually physical evidence of the cybermen being there like the doors if you were told the robot smashing down everybody's doors seen by the entire UK population wasn't real you might wonder why everyone's door was still kicked in exactly how you hallucinate it with nothing stolen and no one having seen a single criminal.

Ah, but there were only five million Cybermen across the entire world - and many of them were busy gawping at sites of historical interest. Very few doors would actually have been kicked down.

Still according to RTD the battle of Canary wharf and the cybermen were denied by the governments of the world

But that's non-canonical - all we know is that the Government issued a very large list of the dead. I really don't see why they'd've issued some pathetic lies along with it. Personally, were I in Government, I'd blame aliens for EVERYTHING. Even on the rare occasions they weren't actually responsible.

almost all of the UK saw the cybermen with their own eyes

No - almost all of the UK saw ghosts with their own eyes.

People denying aliens is one of the biggest mistakes RTD made, they could have just made it a few people who were laughed at by the rest.

I agree it was a mistake, but by Planet of the Dead even the thickos seem to have noticed Dalek invasions and suchlike, without it being THAT big a deal.

I might allow Tennat his hour of post regenerative trauma but as you said he had no regrets not even when he was told the other England was enjoying it's golden age largely thanks to president Harriet Jones.

It was also rapidly going underwater thanks to said Jonesian Golden Age.

The doc didn't exactly cheat by regrowing his hand he could have held his sword in his other hand

He's not ambidextrous, he'd no doubt have lost that swordfight if he had to fight with his left hand.

the Belgrano is only really contested by the Argentinians

Like hell it is. The British suffered a lot more than Argentina from that war - they got to overthrow their military dictatorship, we got eight more years of Maggie...

plus after it was sunk the entire Argentinian fleet returned to port and never bothered the UK forces again kind of like how the a bomb can be justified as how so many more would have died in a long and bloody conquest of Japan.

Nuking hundreds of thousands of civilians and kick-starting the Cold War is another thing a lot of people have problems with, myself included. At the very least other options could have been explored first, like a few friendly guarantees instead of demanding unconditional surrender, which the Japanese believed would result in mass rapes and executions (understandably, given what THEY did to conquered countries) and the hanging of their precious Emperor.

I assume her autobiography was banned A to screw her over

Why would anyone want to screw her over? Everyone LOVED her!

and B because she would have told the secret stuff that they've known about aliens for years before the xmas invasion, they have torchwood,

Not necessarily. Harriet knows she's not even supposed to have HEARD of Torchwood.

As for Adam ok the risk may be small but I'd rather the defender of the universe didn't risk the timeline on people not clicking their fingers at the wrong time.

But the Doc's used to taking FAR greater risks than that on a daily basis. And they invariably pay off.

We don't know how many people were actually killed in London,it could have been almost empty

Except that Sylvia was talking as if everyone she'd ever known was dead.

I think you'll find the definition of important is a debatable thing after all Jack being the face of BO or the new cybermen being impervious to gold is important but we needed behind the scenes interviews to find it out.

No we didn't! Captain Jack said on-screen that he used to be known as the Face of Boe. And we had no reason to think that the new Cybermen SHOULD be allergic to gold.

So after arc angel everyone believes in aliens

Not necessarily. Archangel made them all believe so they'd vote for alien-acknowledging Saxon (which kind of suggests the Government were in denial but the people weren't) but then what happened? Saxon announced he'd met some friendly aliens, produced a sphere which promptly shot the American President dead (NB: the Americans seemed to take aliens seriously, given that Winters rushed off to Britain to take charge instead of pointing and laughing...interesting, given that aliens seldom bother with America) and then got shot dead by his wife. Archangel was presumably dismantled. None of this would do much for the credibility of alien-believers.

I'll agree with that I barely watch Torchwood and Gwen is an idiot, in fact they're all idiots.

Sure they're all idiots, but that's no excuse for NOT WATCHING! You watch Old Who where most Companions have the IQ of an amoeba.

The Doc doesn't need to be hidden from your average net user or policeman and unit is far to busy saving the world to police the net.

I agree - I've never quite understood why the Doc gave Mickey that disc in World War Three (other than to pad out a drastically-underrunning episode).

Logopolis didn't really have much of a funeral air

It SO did!

he wasn't banging on about his upcoming regeneration

Which bit of 'I have dipped into the future...we must be prepared for the worst' are you in denial about?

we didn't have a clue it was coming the watcher wasn't stated to be for the docs regeneration until it happened.

But every time we rewatch it (admittedly not that often, as I don't appreciate being bored out of my skull any more than I appreciate losing Tom) we KNOW.

Also doc 4 did more years and more stories than Tennant

Hell yeah, you don't have to convince ME that new series Doctors are a bunch of mayfly wimps who should be FORCED, by torture if necessary, to follow Tom's fine example and HANG AROUND FOR A FEW ******* YEARS.

he was also pretty popular without the fan girls gushing over him (I know sexist but it's true).

Oh-kay. Have you READ Tom's autobiography? The one where fangirls put on his costume, clamber onto the nearest bed, and say 'Take me into Outer Space, Doctor'...?

The caves of Androzani was far more a regeneration story

In what way?

I still maintain "would you like a jelly baby" is a better catchphrase. "Would you like a jelly baby" = quirky doctor. "I'm sorry, I'm so so sorry" = Rolf Harris on Animal hospital.

Nah, the jelly baby thing is (or at least would be, in the hands of a lesser Doctor) trying a bit too hard to be quirky. Whereas Tennant has many delightful catchphrases for every possible occasion, even if most of them are unfortunately in French.

And if you're reminded of some Rolf Harris thing that's entirely your own fault for watching stuff that isn't Doctor Who.

The idea of the doc suddenly noticed everyone dies around him is bit lousy.

Ah. So the Doc should trip merrily through the corpses - none of that 'There should have been another way', no fury at blowing up Silurians, no helpless pain at the end of The Massacre, no cursing of Sutekh in the name of all nature, no mourning for Adric or Peri or the Giant Robot, no cry of 'What could possibly be worth all this' in Pirate Planet, no 'Good night, sweet Prince' in Two Doctors, no comforting of Ace that the Cheetah Planet lived on in her...?

Thing about a reboot and dark and edgy being tacked on is after 30 years of not dark and edgy and suddenly stumbling into it it seems tacked on.

Well, it WOULD seem tacked on, if there HAD been no darkness and edginess in Who for 26 years. But as people have already mentioned, there are these things called the HARTNELL and COLIN BAKER eras, just for starters...

And sometimes even in the episode like when the doc overthrew Jones and sacrifice England's golden age A reboot would stop people like me asking what is up with everyone suddenly and thy could justify the doc acting weird.

The Doctor's an alien. He should be justifying it when he DOESN'T 'act weird'.

They've tried to make it part sci fi, part soap. Ad this is a very tough balance, Defying gravity tired to be both and was too sci fi for saop fans and too soapy for sci fi fans.

I know nothing of Defying Gravity. I know almost nothing of soaps, though that doesn't stop me despising them (Dimensions in Time casts a long shadow). All I know is that RTG stuck human emotions into a programme that had stupidly tried to minimise them...and it worked. Wonderfully. The way emotions worked in Old Who on the rare occasions they made an appearance.

If Tennant hadn't grabbed the teen girl population they might have had to have a rethink abotu how they wrote it.

The viewing figures did pretty well in the Eccleston era - was he too irresistable to teen girls? I suppose we'll find out soon enough if Matt Smith is...

There are a lot of things they've done old fans truly detest, out of those I know who watch the old series it's just me and my dad who have bothered with the new and I'm technically an ex fan until the new series starts and might become one again.

So how many maniacs...sorry, people...have seriously given up on New Who while sticking with the Old? (However many it is, I think there's some weird kind of blip going on in your vicinity.)

THE PLOT IS SAVE X FROM ENEMY Y NOTHING ELSE.

NOTHING else? Given that the Doc invariably wins the day, you seriously wish there had been THIRTY YEARS of this kind of predicable, emotionless repetition?

Rolf Harris!?!?

I remember Rolf Harris. Tie me kangaroo down, sport.

NOTHING else? Given that the Doc invariably wins the day, you seriously wish there had been THIRTY YEARS of this kind of predicable, emotionless repetition?

I'm guessing the answer to that is... er, yes. Although to be fair, old Who did have some emotion, rarely, but when it did pop up, it added at least some depth to life in the TARDIS. They weren't always cardboard cutouts traipsing through the universe. Of course, the Doctor got most of that character development, if only because some actors simply made it up whether it was in the script or not (Tom, Peter).

For whatever reason the gov't didn't tell people that they'd saved the world from alien Yetis spin doctors didn't exist back then lol. They might have said it was terrorists dressed as Yetis guarding a nuke or something. I know that sounds scooby doo esc. "It was the tube workers disguised as Yetis who wanted to scare us away from the gold mine in the disused tube tunnel" "Scooby Dooby Dooo!".

Again the dinosaurs could be explained away as a chemical spill or something if few people saw them they could say it was just models that people thought were coming to life. How they explained the damage is beyond me but still dinosaurs appearing doesn't mean aliens it was after all entirely earth scientists. Maybe the gov't came clean on the matter as this wouldn't make people belive in aliens.

Your right I did mean the third aunton story still we only saw one shopping centre, people only mentioned one shopping centre, therefore as far as I'm concerned the invasion took place in one shopping centre. Maybe it was other places but I have no memory of them mentioning it. Again it wasn't necessarily proof of aliens they could have said it was robots, they do have rayguns on this Earth. The Aunton left over from the first invasion could be argued to be normal window dummies except for the rayguns in their hands.

Most of the cybermen were supposed to be in England as evidenced by Jack saying a cyberman in every home. Whilst the cybermen might not be proof of aliens people saying it didn't happen was laughable. Still at least they corrected their mistake now.

Blame the Argentineans for 8 more years of Thatcher if they hadn't invaded the islands we wouldn't have gone to war. The sinking for the Belgrano was neither here nor there in the war we would still have won.

Maybe we should have negotiated longer but we couldn't afford to go half way, even now Japan doesn't quite acknowledge its actions in the war. Also the US had to do it twice to make them surrender, if one nuke didn't do it no matter of limited concessions would have worked.

Jones did have a vote of no confidence they didn't like her that much, even Brown never had that and look how unpopular he is. Torchwood is a secret and she might have mentioned it in her book.

It wasn't parallel Jones fault England was going under water that was the Daleks fault for making the rift, also it was Jones who ordered the troops into Torchwood to seal it.

The docs risks do often pay off but not when he isn't there. The collapse of the fourth great and bountiful human empire spring to mind.

Old companions could be stupid but not all the time also they had the doc to keep the, safe whilst all of Torchwood are idiots all the time.

WW3 did drag at the end but that's nothing new these days.

No I haven't read his auto biography but that did make me smile lol.

The caves of Androzani was more a regeneration story because the doc caught spectrox toxemia 5 minutes in and was slowly dying for the whole rest of the story. Despite that we knew it and he never once had to stop and bang on about it he didn't have time. Proof that you can make a story about a regeneration without being horrendously unsubtle and because his death hadn't been announced at the start we fully expected the doc to cure himself by the end.

Ok maybe Logoplis had a funeral air but it was subtle not the whole he will knock three times bit. I missed that line about dipping into the future still they hinted they didn't announce it, also as the producer and writer wasn't leaving so it couldn't be argued as them stealing the story. RTD should have realized that the doc suddenly being unhappy about regeneration and knowing he was regenerating and his last story that was also a flashback of his events coincidentally being the same time RTD was leaving people would accuse him of stealing the show. That did alienate a lot of people.

Tennant did set himself up as a more cheerful Doctor than Eccy and then he morphs into unhappy doc for his specials, also what was up with that, they make few enough episodes a year without having a year out.

Ok the doc did notice in the old series people died and he did show that he was aware of this but the whole "the doctors constant companion is death" thing was a bit much. When a show starts looking inwards like that it can only damage itself.

Rolf Harris was just the fist person I could think of who would announce he was sorry IE animal hospital. I'm sorry, I'm so sorry Timmy your Dalek was too feeble, too mangey, too fond of exterminating and he just couldn't make it all the way through the episode.

As alien as he may be after 30 years of acting one way you can't start acting another and considering old who only failed because it was pushed a slightly changed format would have worked not the current travesty we have. Even the Daleks and cybermen have to be good guys now. That's pushing things too far.

The fact that you haven't heard of defying gravity shows what a dismal failure it was almost no one has. As I said from what I've seen of new whos fanbase guys (more likely to be old fans) have been driven away, girls (more likely not to have sen old) have flocked to it. Eccy's viewing figures were dropping fast, his season finale was the least watched out of all of new who. The girls I've spoken to love Tennant not doctor who. I think Eccy was losing old and not picking up new then Tennant managed to bring in more people. But not so many when his producer steals the show IE the end of time.

Sill as I said maybe sometimes a show can be about saving the world from WW3 not Rose and her family or Rose Loving the doctor or Martha loving the doctor or Martha's mother cropping up see where I'm going, sure characters can be human but sometimes the situations where they show them are very contrived, Martha in the escape pod in 42 leap to mind.

As Amanda said old who did have emotion in it but they didn't have to over act and scream about every blessed thing. And the idea of a teenager not going home every three weeks when in a machine that can go anywhere and anywhen is far from outlandish.

Look, is there any point in continuing to beat this dead horse? It's obvious Daniel has a far different view of new Who than the rest of us (frankly, I have to wonder if he's watching the same show) and no amount of declarative statements on either side will change anyone's mind. Rather reminds me of our religious discussion.

And Daniel, you've got to stop making facts up. Eccleston's viewing figures were roughly between 7-8 million with about 40% of the audience share throughout his tenure. They were not "dropping fast." In fact, his final story had one of the highest audience shares and audience appreciation indexes of the whole series; only a handful of stories have beaten it.

http://www.slug-web.co.uk/doctorwho/viewingfigures.asp

You may think the Doctor's turned into an oversexed, morose, grim reaper wannabe, but a great many other people don't. (Well, oversexed maybe....)

As alien as he may be after 30 years of acting one way you can't start acting another and considering old who only failed because it was pushed a slightly changed format would have worked not the current travesty we have.

If you think 8 other actors have all played the Doctor the same way over 26 yrs, then you haven't been watching it very closely. And calling BBC's most successful show a travesty is ludicrous (all right, second most successful show; what do you people see in this Eastenders thing?). Do you really think DW's audience is entirely made up of horny teenage girls?

If you hate it this much, why in the world are you watching it? Then again, I guess you aren't. You still haven't seen the series finale yet? You're missing out; it was amazing.

"The Writer's Tale," page 317, cut dialog from the Doctor/Davros/Rose scene in the vault in "Journey's End."

Rose asks the Doctor how he was going to end "that sentence" on the beach in Bad Wolf Bay. The dialog goes much as it does at the end of this episode, except earlier ("Does it need saying?" etc.). Davros comments in a quiet voice:

Davros: Such intimacy. So different from the Doctor I once knew.

Daniel is right!

Sadly we have been watching the same show, it would be nice if I discovered I had accidentally been watching doctor who from a parallel universe but sadly no, I tuned in 5 years ago to the adventures of moody northerner and the chav family. You must surely realise that the changes drove people away we can talk about viewing figures all we want but for all we know far more than 3 million failed to tune in again after the first new episode the series's popularity could easily be the result of new blood whilst old fans desert we genuinely don't know.

Old format can till work, Wallace and Gromit hasn't changed it's format dramatically since it first appeared in 1989 but it still edged Doctor who with it's new modern feel out of the top spot at xmas 2009. Proof that kids (and grownups) will tune into shows as they were not updated. Kids Tv suffers terribly from this, tune into a new episode of Postmans Pat or Fireman Sam some day and see whats become of it, guarantee you'll be annoyed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Who_(series_1)

This is where I got my viewing figures from (ridicule if you will but wikipedia has been proven more accurate that encyclopedia Britannica) as you can see the series finale had the lowest ratings. To save you the bother of reading it he started at nearly 11 million and was down to nearly 7 million by the end. I consider 4 million in 12 weeks to be dropping fast lol. Whilst it did bounce up and down ones like the long game and fathers day cost them a million people. Which is a shame as the empty child and the doctor dances was very good.

You said it yourself it's different. I suppose you girls felt the line of acceptable change to the series was at Kylie's near resurrection and Martha's mother whilst mine was at Rose's mother and the Doc being useless for a season.

The girls I know who watch it are in their early 20s and late teens but even the new age fans I know still dislike a fair few changes. As i said before when people say i hated X but now they've changed it I love it you've either A produced something amazing or B changed it so much it's not the same program. I appreciate I know more girls than guys so maybe it's not an accurate sample group but the girls I met at uni love the new, the guys I've known since school who were fans before the new hate it. I should also add not one new fan I've ever spoken to all 2 dozen of them or so have said I like doctor who, they've said I like Tennant all girls btw. The only other guys I know including facebook who watch the new are a few people my sister knows. The world may not be made up of horny teenagers but women are the only people I've seen liking new obviously excluding the guys on this site who defend new..


Taking a show mainstream is fraught with hazard you can easily lose your core audience to attract the new. I reserve the right to call it a Travesty I could make more people buy signed photos of me if I changed singed photos of me to signed photos of David Tennant but that would;t really be the same thing. You said it yourself it's very different and it has split the fan base.

As you said I don't watch it, I haven't seen the end of time I watch a very few repeats and I'm reserving judgement to see what moffett does with it.

Oversexed, see entire new series, morose see Eccy and Tenants leaving episodes, grim reaper wannabe well he's always killed people but he doesn't always have to go on about it. As for no one noticing, new blood.

There is probably no point to this but that said there's not much point in picking holes in your favourite show but we do it lol.

I know that sounds scooby doo esc. "It was the tube workers disguised as Yetis who wanted to scare us away from the gold mine in the disused tube tunnel" "Scooby Dooby Dooo!".

And we would have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for that meddling Time Lord and his Companions!

Sorry, I couldn't resist

Your right I did mean the third aunton story still we only saw one shopping centre, people only mentioned one shopping centre

Actually what the Doctor says is 'Plastic. All over the world. Every artificial thing, waiting to come alive.'

Most of the cybermen were supposed to be in England as evidenced by Jack saying a cyberman in every home.

He was grossly exaggerating.

Blame the Argentineans for 8 more years of Thatcher if they hadn't invaded the islands we wouldn't have gone to war. The sinking for the Belgrano was neither here nor there in the war we would still have won.

Actually it was closer than you'd think. If the French hadn't sold the Argentinians a pile of dud missiles they might have won.

even now Japan doesn't quite acknowledge its actions in the war.

Agreed. I do find that rather terrifying. Luckily I'm very fond of Tosh, so in no danger of becoming an anti-Jap racist.

Also the US had to do it twice to make them surrender, if one nuke didn't do it no matter of limited concessions would have worked.

Well, it's understandable that nuking Hiroshima didn't exactly lay to rest Japanese fears about an American occupation...

Jones did have a vote of no confidence they didn't like her that much, even Brown never had that and look how unpopular he is.

Brown never had the Doctor trying to bring him down. (More's the pity.)

It wasn't parallel Jones fault England was going under water that was the Daleks fault for making the rift, also it was Jones who ordered the troops into Torchwood to seal it.

Actually I got the impression it was Torchwood nipping merrily back and forward across universes - no doubt approved by Harriet - that was causing the flooding.

The docs risks do often pay off but not when he isn't there. The collapse of the fourth great and bountiful human empire spring to mind.

True, but that was obviously a hideous shock for him - it was almost certainly a one-off, which hadn't happened yet. So the Doc had no reason to think that his swanning-off habits might result in disaster. (And if they HAD, in the case of Adam, we'd almost certainly have heard of it by now.)

Old companions could be stupid but not all the time also they had the doc to keep the, safe whilst all of Torchwood are idiots all the time.

True, true *sigh*.

WW3 did drag at the end but that's nothing new these days.

Ooh, how unfair! The new series doesn't know the MEANING of the word 'drag', at least compared to several hundred Old Who stories I could mention...

The caves of Androzani was more a regeneration story because the doc caught spectrox toxemia 5 minutes in and was slowly dying for the whole rest of the story.

Oh. Yeah. Totally forgot about that.

Despite that we knew it and he never once had to stop and bang on about it he didn't have time.

Obviously we have differing views on this...but I strongly feel if a Doctor is DYING it should be a big deal. As in, not the kind of thing you (alright, I) a) don't notice and b) promptly forget about, even though a) I've seen Androzani twenty times...AND b) the regeneration into Colin Baker ruined my life.

Proof that you can make a story about a regeneration without being horrendously unsubtle and because his death hadn't been announced at the start we fully expected the doc to cure himself by the end.

YOU might have expected that. Personally, I expected him to be dead after he was gunned down in episode one...

Ok maybe Logoplis had a funeral air but it was subtle not the whole he will knock three times bit.

Sure, they didn't have OMIGAWD THE DOC'S GONNA DIE! flashing up on the screen in neon letters, but I always feel beaten over the head by impending doom when watching Logopolis. 'Subtle' is NOT the word.

RTD should have realized that the doc suddenly being unhappy about regeneration

SUDDENLY! Once he'd got over not being ginger, it was always clear the Doc was VERY happy with that body! (Weren't we all...*sigh*). Do the lines 'I didn't want to change, well, why would I? Look at me!' ring any bells...?

and knowing he was regenerating and his last story that was also a flashback of his events coincidentally being the same time RTD was leaving people would accuse him of stealing the show. That did alienate a lot of people.

In my opinion MOST people would have been FAR too busy howling their eyes out to start whinging in a petty-minded way about whatever nonsense they're mistakenly imputing to RTG.

Tennant did set himself up as a more cheerful Doctor than Eccy and then he morphs into unhappy doc for his specials

It's called 'character development'. And personally I think it's marvellously ironic that the battle-scarred Doctor mellows enough to die with a smile on his face, while the cheerier version gets gradually beaten down by life and loss. There's no 'morphing' - it's always been subtly clear that Tennant has a dark side ('No second chances', treatment of the Family of Blood, etc) and that, as Donna spelt out, he needs a human to stop him.

also what was up with that, they make few enough episodes a year without having a year out.

Now THAT we can agree on. The old series at least managed 22 years before it decided it wanted a nice long lie-down on a sofa like a consumptive Victorian. New Who clocked up a pathetic FOUR years. (On the other hand, it did provide us with five glorious Specials followed by all that Moffaty, Matty goodness. Whereas the old series came back with Trial of a Time Lord of all things.)

When a show starts looking inwards like that it can only damage itself.

I too was worried about over-reliance on continuity (and I definitely think the references to LINDA in Time Crash and Gwyneth in Journey's End were steps too far) - but the most continuity-heavy episodes - End of Time Part Two, Journey's End - were watched by MILLIONS of Not We who didn't usually bother with Who - and the Audience Appreciation Figures were staggeringly high. So I think we're just a bit paranoid, not surprisingly after what we, and more importantly, Who, suffered when JNT got together with Ian Levine to provide us with the likes of Attack of the Cybermen...

As alien as he may be after 30 years of acting one way you can't start acting another

Of course you can. It's called 'regeneration'.

And that's leaving aside the fact you're STILL ignoring the Hartnell and Colin Baker eras...

and considering old who only failed because it was pushed a slightly changed format would have worked not the current travesty we have.

Ignoring the 'travesty' comment...yes, a slightly changed format would certainly have worked. It just wouldn't have made Who the most popular thing in human history.

Even the Daleks and cybermen have to be good guys now. That's pushing things too far.

I'd describe the Daleks and Cybermen as a hundred times more terrifying than ever before. Sure, the occasional one managed to turn on her creators, but not to anything like the extent of Alpha, Beta and Omega in Evil of the Daleks...

Sill as I said maybe sometimes a show can be about saving the world from WW3 not Rose and her family

Or, better still, it can be about both...

sure characters can be human but sometimes the situations where they show them are very contrived, Martha in the escape pod in 42 leap to mind.

Martha in the escape pod didn't feel contrived to me (that stupid door-opening stuff, on the other hand...). Of course, even if New Who was all utterly contrived it wouldn't begin to compare with, say, Dragonfire's literal cliffhanger...

old who did have emotion in it but they didn't have to over act and scream about every blessed thing.

You have GOT to watch End of Time. In which...SPOILERS FOR END OF TIME PART TWO...the Doc sends his entire species, and (alleged) mum back to hell...AND DOESN'T GIVE A ••••. ALL he cares about is that HE'S still alive. Generalising about such a complex character as our Doctor(s) is a seriously risky business...

And the idea of a teenager not going home every three weeks when in a machine that can go anywhere and anywhen is far from outlandish.

Though of course Barbara, Ian and Tegan spent most of their years in the TARDIS screaming to go home. And even Ace, despite loathing both her family and Perivale, insisted on popping back for a visit...

Look, is there any point in continuing to beat this dead horse? It's obvious Daniel has a far different view of new Who than the rest of us (frankly, I have to wonder if he's watching the same show) and no amount of declarative statements on either side will change anyone's mind. Rather reminds me of our religious discussion.

Well, in a couple of weeks we MIGHT have something better to do with our lives...but as it is...

Of course, it's the height of arrogance to believe that Daniel will have his Damascene conversion thanks to some logical point of mine when five years of shining glory have signally failed to have any effect, but I've gotta keep trying.

You may think the Doctor's turned into an oversexed, morose, grim reaper wannabe, but a great many other people don't. (Well, oversexed maybe....)

What a FANTASTIC description of Eccy!

"The Writer's Tale," page 317, cut dialog from the Doctor/Davros/Rose scene in the vault in "Journey's End."

Rose asks the Doctor how he was going to end "that sentence" on the beach in Bad Wolf Bay. The dialog goes much as it does at the end of this episode, except earlier ("Does it need saying?" etc.). Davros comments in a quiet voice:

Davros: Such intimacy. So different from the Doctor I once knew.

Daniel is right!

Stuff n'nonsense ;) What does Davros know about the Doc's relationships with his Companions? Anyway, Tom betrayed untold billions to save Sarah and Harry from torture, how much more intimacy does Davros WANT?

I tuned in 5 years ago to the adventures of moody northerner and the chav family.

Mmmmmmmm *blissful sigh* happiest day of your life or WHAT!

the series finale had the lowest ratings. To save you the bother of reading it he started at nearly 11 million and was down to nearly 7 million by the end. I consider 4 million in 12 weeks to be dropping fast lol.

But perfectly normal as we went into summer. It's all the subsequent seasons NOT dropping so fast that's the aberration.

Taking a show mainstream is fraught with hazard you can easily lose your core audience to attract the new.

I remember RTG saying he was writing for the general public not for the fans 'because if fans really hate an episode it just means they watch it ten times instead of twenty.' VERY sensible attitude...;)

You said it yourself it's very different

It's main difference is that it's infinitely better. It's still Who through and through...

well he's always killed people but he doesn't always have to go on about it.

Er...I think he does, if he expects to be regarded as a hero.

I always got the impression that the doc shut down the transmission before most of the plastics came to life.

I'd like to think the French were doing us a favour but I doubt it somehow, still the Harriers proved their worth and air power is key in any modern war. I don't actually know the Falklands war that well but I think the war might have been longer rather than ever having the outcome in any doubt.

The leaders of Japan knew how we would treat them it was their people they scared with stories of the brutal westerners. That said we weren't the most tolerant back then and the leaders could have been scared that we'd make an exception for them.

If RTD had written an episode about the Doctor bringing down Gordon Brown I might forgive him but unfortunately it's too late now lol.

It was the Rift that was causing the flooding, using it made it worse but it was already causing the trouble. There's a line in the episode about the government taking control of Torchwood once they found out what they were doing. Pete is senior government official and Micky and the Geordie are military. The doc just has a grudge against Jones, maybe he's trying to justify his actions to himself.

Yeah the old series does drag but that is partly because they were not all meant to be viewed in one sitting, frontier in space has a lot toing and froing in space but remember it and the rest of them were meant to be viewed over a month not 2 hours. Also they were not meant to be viewed with modern eyes, who knows what people of the future will make of the touchy feely endings or Kylie's near resurrection.

Subtler maybe but still you can't get any less subtle that The Waters of Mars onwards.

The doc almost always gets himself out of near death situations and whilst a regeneration is a big thing it's not really meant to be announced before it happens. Especially not 9 months before.

Of course Tennant has always been scared to change but the previous 9 haven't, granted Troughton wasn't exactly happy about it but it was rather forced on him. And whilst you do have a point it would be a big deal changing into a new person etc the fact is Tennant is the only doc to fear regeneration and his last episode was RTD's last as well. Even if it's a total coincidence (which it isn't) he must have known people would see through it. And apparently 3 million people agreed with me as the previous 2 Christmas specials got 13 million.

Yeah Tennant did go gradually dark but not everything HAS to be dark. A lot of sci fi does that these days largely due to the new Battle Star Galactica's success but sci fi is supposed to be escapist fantasy, and the fact that it's aired later and later might lead some to question if it's really for kids any more. I don't hold for all that moral panic stuff but still, I'm not entirely sure I'd let my kids watch the Waters of Mars, of course I would but I don't think I'd be happy about it.

Actually it was only 3 glorious specials, you can't count the Next Doctor as they always do an Xmas special and they would have done one again so there were only three that wouldn't have been made otherwise. That's said another series might have seen me off for good so perhaps it's for the best.

Hartnell was when they were still finding their feet, all shows do weird things at the start. Plus that caveman thing was in the very first episode and never repeated. Baker turned good for a Trial of Time Lord and his character arc was supposed to have him turning back into the doctor we knew and loved. Course some BBC exec ruined that.

Your right about Alpha Beta and Omega and the other daleks in that story but they had to be hit with the humanising ray instead of sorting themselves out. The Dalek in Dalek was kind of sympathetic even before it had Rose's DNA. Not to mention Cann. Again the new cybermen had Yvonne breaking control by herself and they were already semi good guys as the doc teamed up with them against the Daleks.

But it wasn't really about both Rose's family plot both started and ended the episode I think it got about 15 mins in before the aliens appeared and had about 10 mins padding of them at the end, not counting the middle bits. The aliens barely served any purpose other than calming down Rose's mother and keeping us interested, notice how the next times rarely give a hint the family would be involved, the Aliens of London and WW3 didn't neither did the Parting of the Ways.

When I said Martha in the escape pod I meant the whole scene, including the door opening and the 5 minute part of them shouting through the door at each other.

Of course the doc is complex even the most cheerful person in the world can rant and rave under the right circumstances but you don't always have to put them in those circumstances.

Barbra and Ian didn't really want to leave Earth neither did Tegan, even Ace was on Iceworld due to a not so random time storm. Still Ace only went home once out of her whole stretch on the show, and wasn't that episode just rubbish, shame they went out on a low note.

I doubt I'll be able to convince you either but aren't most arguments like that? To an extent we're both seeing what we want to see in the new series. You a more realistic, logical extension of the old series, me an over acted, over dramatic, over sexed, farce with little regard for any rules from the old series and more money than sense.

I always thought Tom's betray of untold billions was part of his master plan he did come very close to making Davros destroy the Daleks in the next scene, also he gave wrong dates eg the daleks invading earth in the year 2000 not 2150s. He definitely meant the 2150 invasion as he mentioned mining the core.

Unfortunately it wasn't so happy for me and apparently 3 million other agreed with me but I still tuned in next week.

A series finale is expected to get the highest ratings and Tennant has delivered, looking at the figures some surprisingly good eps have low figures (Blink is just under 7 million) but still Tennant tends to start high bounce up and down and finish on a high, Eccy started went low, fluctuates by about a million viewers then nose dives at the end.

RTD has said he doesn't care what his fans think which I think is supremely arrogant of him. Whilst he does have a point, that is an extremely cocky thing to say and he should be very thankful those comments aren't well known. We could all say a lot of things about a lot of things and people and have a point but we don't, because A- potential repercussions and B- because it's polite.

a regeneration is a big thing it's not really meant to be announced before it happens. Especially not 9 months before.

Sez who? Besides, if you read RTD's book, you'll find a great many "announcements" were forced on the production team by tabloid leaks. RTD sounded pretty annoyed about it all and thought it spoiled future episodes (and he was right, as we both agree). There was little he could do about it though.

sci fi is supposed to be escapist fantasy

Again, sez who? Some of the best sci-fi I've ever read was extremely dark. It's fine you don't want it to be that way, but don't assume there's some blueprint in the sky.

Eccy started went low, fluctuates by about a million viewers then nose dives at the end.

Where do you keep getting this idea? "Parting of the Ways" was the fourth-highest watched episode of series one and had the highest audience appreciation index at that time. In terms of raw numbers (which are always mathematically iffy), it wasn't any lower than the last few before it. There was no "dive."

You're right it's not RTD's fault that there are leaks but he doesn't have to write them into the episode. We knew Eccy was leaving from ep 1 onwards but they didn't go on about it.

As for sci fi being escapist fantasy thats kind of it's golden rule. Darker and edgier can and has worked but it's best not to change genres after 30 years. Eccy had about 6.5 million on his last two 7 million before that and 6 million before that. He was losing viewers Tennant began to lose people too but he always pulled them for a season finale, eccy couldn't and didn't.

As for sci fi being escapist fantasy thats kind of it's golden rule.

?! Have you read much sci-fi? A very great deal of it is rather nasty. Even if you only take TV/film, you can point to some rather depressing stuff: Blade Runner (hard to get more dismal that that!), Brazil, Matrix, 12 Monkeys, 1984, and so on. Sci-fi as a genre seems to alternate between straight forward adventure and suicide-inducing distopia.

In evaluating Eccleston's series, you would need to throw out the pilot. People watch pilots for any number of reasons that say little about the show itself. It's not until you get to the second episode that the people who've decided to watch it can be measured.

In order, the first-run ratings were: 8, 8.9, 7.6, 8, 8.6, 8, 8.1, 7.1, 6.9, 7.7, 6.8, 6.9.

That looks like a rough start of 8 million viewers drifting down to 7 million to me, with one notable spike for the third episode (The Unquiet Dead of all things!). Yes, Eccleston was losing viewers, but hardly a nose dive or even a ratings disaster.

If you look at the audience share (to my mind a more accurate count since it only measures the number of people available to watch the show), the numbers are more variable and show ups and downs throughout the run: 37.8, 37.8, 35.7, 40.2, 44.9, 40.4, 44.4, 36.6, 38.5, 38.6, 37.9, 44.

Now if you look at the audience appreciation numbers, they actually increased on average throughout the series: 76, 80, 82, 81, 84, 81, 83, 84, 85, 82, 85, 89.

I would interpret all this to mean that a lot of people tried it out, some 2-3 million gave up on it (probably Old Who diehards such as yourself), but those who remained liked it more and more.

The numbers generally continue at the 7 million viewship level (give or take a million) for subsequent series, with the Christmas specials tending to break out above the crowd. New Who has found a very loyal and steady audience and I would be surprised to find they were all horny teenage girls.

Yeah I spose you have point but Doctor Who was never that bleak, sure it had dark episodes but nothing approaching the waters of mars. Anyway the Matrix is more action that drama and has a happyish ending. So does blade runner.

Yeah that is odd the unquiet dead did so well. It was probably because it was the first story quite close to old who. Fathers day sure saw off people though. Still Eccy wasn't doing so well he might never have recovered. With less people watching it's easier to get higher appreciation figures, if a million people tune out because they hate an episode those remaining presumably like it.

No they are not horny teenage girls but there are about 7.5 million girls under the age of 18 (not all teens I know) and that's not including the 18-22 year old girls that I know, look how well boy bands do a sensation amoungst them can function on them alone. Those teen and twenty something girls whilst not being the core audience can easily push up a series ratings by a couple of million. I do accept that even 6 million is good for any tv show but as I said something can be popular and yet unfaithful to it's source material, just ask any Lord of the Rings book fan what they think of the adaptation.

sure it had dark episodes but nothing approaching the waters of mars

Yeah, Waters of Mars wasn't one of my favorites either. I wonder why? Midnight was probably the darkest Who story so far, at least to me, but I loved that one.

With less people watching it's easier to get higher appreciation figures, if a million people tune out because they hate an episode those remaining presumably like it.

Very true.

there are about 7.5 million girls under the age of 18

I'd be interested in looking at that data. I've been trying to find audience demographics for a while now, but thought you needed a BARB subscription to get them. What site are you looking at?

just ask any Lord of the Rings book fan what they think of the adaptation

I read the book in college (it was actually one of the required texts) and loved it. I thought the movie was absolutely fantastic, couldn't have been better or more faithful (without being a few MORE hours longer). I haven't seen any posts anywhere that say otherwise, although I don't really visit LOTR sites anymore.

Midnight was ok didn't really work for me but that said I didn't not like it. Course as always your two steps ahead of the characters but you have that slide, in real life one of them would have hit her to shut her up.

The LOTR were good and of course they had to cut stuff but they made Frodo useless, Faramir less honourable, Denathor mad, and Aragorn goes from noble lord waiting his chance to Hollywood relectant leader. Plus they cut the scouring of the shire, Saruman from movie 3 and butchered the end of The Two Towers.

As for aududience denographics I've been using the 2001 census. It's on wikipedia, unfortunately it's age numbers ate lacking. It only has numbers for those under 14, between 14 and 65, and 65+. To find out how many people there are under 18 I had to use wiki answers. There are about 11 million kids under 14 wiki answers said there were 15 million kids so about 7 million under age girls. Maybe the census official website has more data. In hindsight I should have looked for that lol.

in real life one of them would have hit her to shut her up.

Ah, didn't think of that. Of course, they can't do that on Who, which is a shame as her repetition got really annoying. Frankly, I would have been happy to hit her. (Still loved it though.)

Aragorn goes from noble lord waiting his chance to Hollywood relectant leader

That bit annoyed me, too. Smacked of Hollywood hero stereotyping, as you say. Aragorn in the book was more than happy to rise to the occasion. I also agree with your other points (although there were good reasons for them if you watch the making of), except I didn't think Frodo was made useless.

As for aududience denographics I've been using the 2001 census.

Oh, I thought you actually had viewing demographics. That would be interesting to examine. I've always thought DW was more of a boys' show, although us girls watched it religiously in middle school.

As for aududience denographics I've been using the 2001 census

Uh, that's almost ten years ago now. The info must be very out of date.

Frodo was so useless, book Frodo zones out on the ring three times, once when he's not used to it. Once at the entrance to Mordor and mount doom, also he's pretty normal when he's not zoned on it and able to debate with the wisest lord. Movie Frodo is forever zoning out on the ring (he tries to give it away to the Nazgul about 3 times per film), is obsessed with it when he isn't zoned, most of his lines are given to Sam and he never shows the strength of book Frodo. Remember Frodo in the book out rides the black riders and summons the rivers magic to drown their horses.

Unfortunately there probably aren't any audince demographics or if there are it'll be a survey of 1000 people from which they think they can work out exactly what their 13 million viewers are made up from.

Don't get me started on how useless these surveys and polls are, they're just fodder for the tabloids. Take the one that said one in ten school pupils thought the queen invented the phone. A- I expect they couldn't rememebr and just said queen for a laugh, and B- they only asked a thousand kids, out of all 15 million of them. I conducted a survey the other day (for a laugh) that proved Star Trek is bad for academic abillity. I only used 5 people but that's not the point lol.

I used the census purely for raw numbers to show just how many teen girls there are lol. I know it's out of date but i doubt things have chnged that much in 10 years. Besides there's nothing else to use for population numbers.

I think you need to read LOTR again. Just about nothing you said is true. He never tried to give the ring to a Nazgul, he never outrode them on a horse, he didn't raise the river, and I don't think he debated anyone.

(Sorry, everyone, for the LOTR off-topic sidebar.)

I've read how the BARB collect their viewing figures and it sounds statistically valid. It's too bad you have to pay for that info.

Exactly he doesn't give the ring to Nazguls in the book he tries in the film. In the book he holds his own against Faramir over Golum and not using the ring. Not sure about the river as I can only remember the tape version but I'm sure he knows the spell to do it. He even has the guts to try and stab the witch king before using his knowledge of elven names to force him back.

Sorry about going off topic people.

No, he doesn't try to give the ring to a Nazgul in the book OR the film. Faramir was just as nasty to Gollum in the book as he was in the film. And since Frodo was unconscious at the time, he wouldn't have been raising any rivers (never mind he didn't know any spells); Elrond did it in the book and Arwen did it in the film. Nor was he very effective against the Witch King as he was stabbed by the morgul blade in both the book and the film (although he might have put up slightly more of a fight on Weathertop in the book).

Ok then Frodo did it in the tape lol, he does try to give to a nazgul in the film, remember the scene in Osgiliath. Faramir is as nasty to Golum but Frodo argues with Faramir about Golum being good and debates him into letting him take the ring to Mordor due to the havoc it will cause in Minastrith.

Your right he doesn't do terribly well in the book or the film but in the book he at least has a go and hurts the Nazgul with the Elven names, if not his sword.

There is a LOTR discussion board in the movies section. Perhaps you two could continue this discussion over there.

Back to Who.

Thank you, Tim.

Sorry. It's simply hard to let inaccuracies stand.

Sorry Tim your right. I think the lesson to learned from this is that changing things can ruin them.

Sorry. It's simply hard to let inaccuracies stand.

It's understandable. We are nitpickers after all.

Yeah, we are. However, this is a Doctor Who forum.

Still, we seem to be having this same arguement over and over, whether the changes made to Who were good or not. The show had to be brought into the 21st Century, there was no way it could come back the way it had been twenty years ago.

True it had to be updated but there are many different genre's to choose from. Sci fi action, sci fi drama, not sci fi soap which is ratehr what it is.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on that. I've watched soaps, mostly as a punishment, and I don't see new Who as a soap in the least little bit. Having a family in it doesn't make it a soap. Many dramas and action shows have families in them and they are not soap like in the least.

If anything, the old Who was more soap like in the way it was to be continued all the time.

I always got the impression that the doc shut down the transmission before most of the plastics came to life.

Whereas I...didn't. It would be a hell of a coincidence if Jackie AND Clive and family happened to be visiting the one shopping centre where all that stuff happened to be going on...and didn't Elton encounter Autons elsewhere?

I don't actually know the Falklands war that well but I think the war might have been longer rather than ever having the outcome in any doubt.

Apparently the commander of the task force said that they'd've had to retreat if those French missiles that kept hitting their ships had actually exploded.

If RTD had written an episode about the Doctor bringing down Gordon Brown I might forgive him but unfortunately it's too late now lol.

As TennantDoc said...Never say never ever! In a few years we might just be able to lure Him back to Who (yes, I'm already worried about who Moffat's successor'll be). Of course, for all we know, it COULD have been Gordon falling out of that cupboard in Aliens of London...

It was the Rift that was causing the flooding, using it made it worse but it was already causing the trouble.

Are you sure? I.e. do you have an exact quote?

The doc just has a grudge against Jones, maybe he's trying to justify his actions to himself.

Quite possibly. It would be just like our over-conscienced Doc to feel bad about SAYING SIX WORDS to teach someone not to slaughter retreating aliens. And of course, he DOES (adorably!) hold grudges, but seldom for long (look at Eccy, going from 'You think you know your own name? How stupid ARE you?' to asking Mickey to go with him, in a few hours).

Yeah the old series does drag but that is partly because they were not all meant to be viewed in one sitting, frontier in space has a lot toing and froing in space but remember it and the rest of them were meant to be viewed over a month not 2 hours.

True - the BBC spectacularly failed to foresee the invention of the video recorder. But I DO bear that in mind while watching - and it's very helpful when it comes to Frontier in Space, which I love dearly in spite of, well, everything. On the other hand, it utterly fails to mitigate, say, Planet of the Spiders.

Also they were not meant to be viewed with modern eyes

You can say THAT again.

You think RTG doesn't try to be futuristic...? Try watching Tomb of the Cybermen...

Subtler maybe but still you can't get any less subtle that The Waters of Mars onwards.

Oh, I think you can. Tennant alone is capable of subtly and silently conveying more emotions than all the old series Doctors put together.

Of course Tennant has always been scared to change but the previous 9 haven't, granted Troughton wasn't exactly happy about it but it was rather forced on him.

Isn't it always? Pertwee didn't exactly look over the moon. Tom was driven half-mad by the foreknowledge. McCoy fought for his life. And oh god the expression on Eccy's face, just for that one moment...

Yeah Tennant did go gradually dark but not everything HAS to be dark.

Well, of course it doesn't. Who - and New Who in particular - has a wonderful balance between joy and comedy and excitement and horror and heartbreak.

and the fact that it's aired later and later might lead some to question if it's really for kids any more.

Who's aired later and later? I thought it was earlier and earlier. There's a hideous rumour about Episode Two starting at 5.45pm.

I don't hold for all that moral panic stuff but still, I'm not entirely sure I'd let my kids watch the Waters of Mars, of course I would but I don't think I'd be happy about it.

Well, I'm not sure I'd let my (non-existent) kids watch ANY of the Colin Baker era. And I'm just talking gratuitous violence here, never mind it being total rubbish. At least Waters of Mars'll teach the little buggers that you shouldn't think of others as 'little people' or BAD things happen. (Well, alright, and maybe that you shouldn't eat carrots.) What moral message would they take from watching Colin in acid bath action?

That's said another series might have seen me off for good so perhaps it's for the best.

Oh, I think that would have been a sacrifice worth making ;)

Hartnell was when they were still finding their feet, all shows do weird things at the start.

Of course they do. Not usually on the scale of making their 'hero' a would-be murderer of innocent injured men, surely?

Baker turned good for a Trial of Time Lord and his character arc was supposed to have him turning back into the doctor we knew and loved. Course some BBC exec ruined that.

My only regret is that they didn't ruin it a LOT sooner. Not that the IDEA is bad, per se - it's exactly what happened to Eccleston. You just need a great Doctor and some great scripts to pull it off.

The Dalek in Dalek was kind of sympathetic even before it had Rose's DNA.

Well, it HAD been tortured for 50 years (or whatever). It's difficult NOT to feel a twinge of sympathy. Which, of course, the Dalek played up to beautifully, to further its E-VUHL plan.

Not to mention Cann.

The giggling tentacled nutcase who danced and died a thousand times and genocided his own species ADDED to the Dalek myth, he didn't detract from it - he's not exactly a nice guy.

Again the new cybermen had Yvonne breaking control by herself and they were already semi good guys as the doc teamed up with them against the Daleks.

I'll admit Yvonne is surprising - but I'd hardly call Cybermen 'semi good guys' because of their temporary alliance with the Doc. It's like that moment he shakes hands with the Master in Logopolis - scary cos it's so fundamentally WRONG.

I think it got about 15 mins in before the aliens appeared

Best 15 minutes EVER.

and had about 10 mins padding of them at the end

I'll admit that the first time I watched that felt slightly padded (cos, let's face it, it WAS). But each time I see the end of World War Three those scenes just get more and more utterly wonderful. (God, when I think of those fake rows blowing up out of nowhere that Old Who used to pad out its underrunning episodes with...)

The aliens barely served any purpose other than calming down Rose's mother

Frankly that's not QUITE how I'd describe the Slitheen effect on Jackie...

When I said Martha in the escape pod I meant the whole scene, including the door opening

Oh, we're DEFINITELY in agreement about all that door-opening...

and the 5 minute part of them shouting through the door at each other.

It wasn't five minutes! It was, in point of fact, an incredibly moving scene. (Or would have been had I given a •••• whether or not Martha Jones happened to fall into a sun.)

Of course the doc is complex even the most cheerful person in the world can rant and rave under the right circumstances but you don't always have to put them in those circumstances.

I'm afraid that if your job is saving planets, you're likely to be in high-stress situations a LOT of the time.

Still Ace only went home once out of her whole stretch on the show, and wasn't that episode just rubbish, shame they went out on a low note.

Well, at least you're consistent. I've always loved Survival, and since 'Rose', I've thought of it as Old Who FINALLY realising how it should be done. In its final story, which is taking irony to ridiculous heights.

To an extent we're both seeing what we want to see in the new series. You a more realistic, logical extension of the old series,

I was boggling at your use of the word 'logical' since even RTG's greatest fan (me!) wouldn't EVER apply THAT word to ANY of his work, when I realised what you're getting at. Yes, I DO think that had Who been permitted to gradually evolve over those lost sixteen years, THIS is more-or-less what it would have evolved into. Old Who was already showing promising signs of discovering basic facts like People Have Feelings, Women Are People Too, and that sort of thing.

me an over acted

Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that Old Who employed better acting talents than New?

over dramatic

You're •••• right it's overdramatic. It's the adventures of the most dramatic person in the universe, set against a backdrop of the entire universe (plus one or two other entire universes.) What do you EXPECT? And are you suggesting that Old Who wasn't overdramatic?

over sexed

Hell, yeah. Of course, in principle I'm TOTALLY against sex in Who. (Or anywhere else, come to think of it.) It's just that - whether it's Captain Jack naked on TV in front of millions of viewers, or the Doctor crashing through a mirror on horseback to nick the King of France's prostitute - New Who has made it such a joy.

farce with little regard for any rules from the old series

It has been INCREDIBLY faithful to the old series. Certainly more faithful than the old series ever was to itself, at least before it started disappearing up its own continuity in the JNT era.

and more money than sense.

Yes, Doctor Who actually HAD SOME MONEY SPENT ON IT at last. What a betrayal!

I always thought Tom's betray of untold billions was part of his master plan he did come very close to making Davros destroy the Daleks in the next scene, also he gave wrong dates eg the daleks invading earth in the year 2000 not 2150s.

Whereas I just assumed that was Old Who's usual reckless disregard for continuity. Tom looked pretty desperate for a man with a masterplan.

Tennant tends to start high bounce up and down and finish on a high, Eccy started went low, fluctuates by about a million viewers then nose dives at the end.

In which case, Season 1/27 did what EVERY programme does in summer when no-one's indoors that early watching TV (philistines). Yes, subsequent years have bucked the trend, but I think this is less due to the admitted utter fantasticness of David Tennant and more to the fact that - thanks to Eccy, Tennant and above all to RTG - Doctor Who has entirely taken over British culture. We rule the ******* UNIVERSE, in a way Who never did even during the Dalekmania years in the 60s.

RTD has said he doesn't care what his fans think which I think is supremely arrogant of him.

When did He ever say that?! He said He was writing for the general public rather than the fans, a completely different and eminently sensible thing to say.

Besides, if you read RTD's book, you'll find a great many "announcements" were forced on the production team by tabloid leaks. RTD sounded pretty annoyed about it all and thought it spoiled future episodes

Well, quite. It's not RTG's fault that even Not We tabloid scum recognise that Who is now officially the Greatest Thing In The Universe...well, actually that IS RTG's fault, but what do you expect Him to DO about it?? He did, bless Him, give us that shock regeneration in Stolen Earth to make up for the Eccy one that was ruined. (Well, not RUINED, obviously it was still the most moving thing in human history, but can you IMAGINE what it would have been like if it had come out of the blue? Obviously I'd have LITERALLY DIED but it would have been worth it...) And he went to insane lengths to keep things like Rose's appearance in Partners in Crime a secret...

Where do you keep getting this idea? "Parting of the Ways" was the fourth-highest watched episode of series one and had the highest audience appreciation index at that time. In terms of raw numbers (which are always mathematically iffy), it wasn't any lower than the last few before it. There was no "dive."

Ooh! Good! So there!

I would interpret all this to mean that a lot of people tried it out, some 2-3 million gave up on it (probably Old Who diehards such as yourself)

There weren't THAT many Old Who diehards in Britain! And the vast majority of them - I mean us - loved the new series. No, the treacherous scumbags were no doubt Not We who tuned into ANY new programme out of vulgar curiosity and totally failed to 'get' Who.

Doctor Who was never that bleak, sure it had dark episodes but nothing approaching the waters of mars.

True - but then New Who is so much more intense than the old stuff that of course its darkness would be, well, darker.

Though personally I've always found Colin gloatingly talking about fruit-soft flesh peeling from bones to be a LOT darker than anything Waters of Mars managed.

Anyway the Matrix is more action that drama and has a happyish ending. So does blade runner.

So does Doctor Who. He's still standing (albeit in a bizarre new form) and he saves the day/planet/universe every time.

there are about 7.5 million girls under the age of 18 (not all teens I know) and that's not including the 18-22 year old girls that I know, look how well boy bands do a sensation amoungst them can function on them alone.

I don't think Who is QUITE as popular amongst this particular demographic. There was a bloody helpline set up for when Take That or something split up, but NOTHING when Tennant regenerated...

In real life one of them would have hit her to shut her up.

Ah, didn't think of that. Of course, they can't do that on Who

Well, they can't do that on NEW Who. In the Good Old Days I suspect it would have been permissible for the Doctor to give Sky a jolly good smacked bottom...

Oh, I thought you actually had viewing demographics. That would be interesting to examine. I've always thought DW was more of a boys' show, although us girls watched it religiously in middle school.

Old Who certainly was. But according to my Monsters Within (guide to Season 4) book, the audience is now 51% female to 49% male...though with the under-16s boys outnumber girls by an average of seven percentage points.

I think the lesson to learned from this is that changing things can ruin them.

God, lucky you weren't around when they decided to regenerate (sorry, renew) Hartnell. Or film Who in colour...

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on that. I've watched soaps, mostly as a punishment, and I don't see new Who as a soap in the least little bit. Having a family in it doesn't make it a soap. Many dramas and action shows have families in them and they are not soap like in the least.

Hear, hear. Daniel, just accept that Who has always, will always, nick whatever it wants from any genre it fancies, and stop trying to stuff it into a box labelled 'not-dark sci-fi action'.

Maybe it's time to end this particular argument and move on. We're going n circles here, it's like being caught in a time loop!

It is indeed, but what the hell, we're Who fans, we LIKE a chronic hysteresis every now and then *Hums Cold Fusion Chronic Hysteresis song.* And this is certainly making me analyse exactly WHY I've spent the last five years in a haze of sheer bliss.

And it'll probably be over soon enough, one way or another - give it another eight days and either Daniel'll have his Blinding Light On The Road To Damascus, or he'll be vowing never to let Who darken his door again...

I was pretty sure that Clive was supposed to be at Jacky's shopping centre as they made no effort doesn't jackie go inside and it's the same building.

The task force might have fallen back but not necessarily left, lucky for us the French's uselessness at war comes in handy after 100 years of being allies.

Yeah I'm positive it was the void, Pete says the seas are going up and it's not just global warming it's something else, and the doc says yeah it's the rift "this planet is going to boil soon both worlds will fall into the void". And the Geordie says the peoples republic seized Torchwood probably under orders from the president.

Tomb of the Cybermen might have dated terribly but at the least they all don't wear modern clothes. Plus they've tried to backtrack by saying Toberman was deaf (but had a hearing aid) explaining why he didn't talk and was apparently slow. Not brilliant I know but still better than the colonial theme of before. Toberman is also one of the heroes of the story so give them some credit.

I really didn't notice Tom being down about regenerating at all, I totally missed the funeral theme of Logopoliis, sure Pertwee wasn't happy but it nearly killed him for real that time, plus I assume regeneration hurts a lot. They wouldn't exactly be cavalier with their regenerations but Tennant was the only one who properly flipped over the matter. Fact is RTD stole Tennant's regeneration as a thinly disguised metaphor for his departure. Tennant can act subtle but the script sure wasn't written that way.

it is aired later when it came back it was shown at about 6.20 just like the old days, now it's shown at about 7 or 7.15. granted that is sometimes cause of sport which can't be helped but not always.

I must admit I did like the Dalek episode but at the end where Rose is pleading for the Doc to spare it's life and it's just sitting there I was like come on Daleks have one character trait, exterminate, no room for interpretation. Plus remember Dalek Sec at least he was half human but still.

I agree the doc wanting to bash his head in was a bad idea, the writers saw that very quickly as it never happened again and to be honest if the doc wasn't elderly then i'd have a strong desire to punch him.

Acid bath moral lesson is never be surprised next to acid bath, Colin never pushed anyone in (have watched closely know it for a fact)the first one knocked the other one in who then pulled the other one in too.

Ok 5 mins was an exaggeration for that scene but still there was no need to shout whilst choir sings in background, he should be busy trying to save her. As you said the scene doesn't work if your not a Martha fan, you see how I view the new series?

Saving planets is high stress but they used to manage faster after all he is an alien.

I don't really remember Survival but i didn't not lie it because of it's emotional plot lives I just thought it was very weird, Ace's friends were sort of generic and I just couldn't get into the plot.

As for the money it's not bad that they have it, but they seem to blow the lot on special effects so we lose a lot of episode on effects shots and to flog the dead horse make some laser guns with it already, it's not like they can't afford energy weapons. You can't show blood, meaning guns that fire bullets use terrible cuts to avoid showing the person being shot, a laser gets round it brilliantly.

http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2009/07/24/backlash-shmacklash-thats-torchwood-creator-russell-t-davies-reaction-to-the-outcry-over-the-death-of-gareth-david-lloyds/

Here is where RTD says he doesn't care, granted it is Torchwood but i've read that he said it about doctor who as well, can't back it up however.

Course it's not RTD's fault the tabloids wreck things but perhaps he could try lying to confuse us till it came out. That would at least be something. And just because it's announced in real life doesn't mean it has to be announced in the show as well. Eg Tennant leaving.

I'm pretty sure they can hit on Who, after all they do on soaps and they're shown earlier, plus we see doc 11 punching someone in the new trailer. The woman was both freaky and annoying two excellent reasons to hit someone. I had totally forgotten about the smacked bottom line I remember thinking WTH when I first heard it, luckily he never followed through with his threat so no supremely inappropriate moments on old or new who. That said it would certainly have made midnight a very memorable episode lol a few related Facebook groups would doubtless spring up lol.

Not sure about under 16's viewing habits the youngest who fan I know is 17 the oldest 22 all female. I think it might just be me who watches it out of all my male friends, thinking about it a lot of my male friends in collage watched it but they gradually drifted away from it, it's just the girls now.

I only said change can be bad, advances in tech aren't necessarily bad also there was not much else to do when Hartnel left. At least they replaced him with someone good and useful not an ungrateful sod who did a year before leaving.

The soapy moments are Rose braking up with her boyfriend Martha gagging for the doctor, the assistants families would be right at home in any soap especially Martha's. Who has stolen genres and it would change from episode to episode the new one doesn't go for one then the other it tries to stuff them all into each episode, emotional time action time soap moment long meaningful look time. I think who has fallen back slightly onto relying on its effects and filming style whereas before the actors had to do all the work, ok with limited success sometimes, but that was the name of the game.

Time loop lol.

Well I suspect Amy's intro episode won't exactly wow me but I have hopes for the Daleks and Angels episode. The new series does look good and I do so want to like it. They seem to be failing on the futuristic front again but maybe the trailers were just misleading. However I saw a bit of Mat Smith talking and his dialogue sounded an awful lot like Tennant, please don't James Bond the doctor so his personality is almost exactly the same but different people play him. Ok the new doc is different like all who came before him but don't give the new docs identical personalities.

I was pretty sure that Clive was supposed to be at Jacky's shopping centre

I agree - sorry, I wasn't making myself clear. I can take Jackie n'Clive being at the same shopping centre, it would just be too ludicrous a coincidence if it happened to be the only shopping centre in the world to be affected by the Autons.

Tomb of the Cybermen might have dated terribly but at the least they all don't wear modern clothes. Plus they've tried to backtrack by saying Toberman was deaf (but had a hearing aid) explaining why he didn't talk and was apparently slow.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Toberman is also one of the heroes of the story so give them some credit.

True. Though to be honest, I'm rather more concerned about the treatment of women than the treatment of Toberman. Even Victorian Victoria finds it insulting.

And that 'fifty pound' thing sticks out like a sore thumb.

I really didn't notice Tom being down about regenerating at all, I totally missed the funeral theme of Logopoliis

Try watching it again. (If nothing else, that amount of boredom may at least make you look more kindly upon our glorious new series.)

plus I assume regeneration hurts a lot.

That's a point. It bloody well SHOULD. But does it? Hartnell's seemed rather peaceful. And even Tennant, the last likely Doctor to keep a stiff upper lip, wasn't screaming in agony the way he was with the chameleon arch.

They wouldn't exactly be cavalier with their regenerations but Tennant was the only one who properly flipped over the matter.

Every regeneration is different. And it's WAY past time a Doctor went out kicking and screaming and raging against the dying of the light.

Fact is RTD stole Tennant's regeneration as a thinly disguised metaphor for his departure. Tennant can act subtle but the script sure wasn't written that way.

Even if that WAS the case...RTG EARNED it.

I must admit I did like the Dalek episode but at the end where Rose is pleading for the Doc to spare it's life and it's just sitting there I was like come on Daleks have one character trait, exterminate, no room for interpretation.

Frankly the only time a Dalek has just EXTERMINATED someone rather than just shrieked 'Exterminate!' half a dozen times before taking them prisoner...it was in an RTG script - Stolen Earth.

I didn't actually mind Rose's DNA altering the Dalek's exterminatory qualities - since it promptly did the Dalek thing and topped itself - but I admit Caan emergency-temporal-shifting instead of exterminating the **** out of the Doc at the end of Evolution was a bit surprising.

I agree the doc wanting to bash his head in was a bad idea, the writers saw that very quickly as it never happened again and to be honest if the doc wasn't elderly then i'd have a strong desire to punch him.

Do bear in mind that all the new series Doctors are EVEN MORE elderly - please don't hurt them...

Acid bath moral lesson is never be surprised next to acid bath, Colin never pushed anyone in (have watched closely know it for a fact)the first one knocked the other one in who then pulled the other one in too.

I cunningly never accused him of PUSHING anyone in. It was his entire attitude I object to.

As you said the scene doesn't work if your not a Martha fan, you see how I view the new series?

Ah. I can see how that WOULD make things trickier, but being in love with a regular character or two (or, by the time you get to Journey's End, about ten) is just the icing on the cake. The quality of a Who story (or lack thereof, in the case of Daleks in Manhattan, 42, etc) shines through regardless.

Saving planets is high stress but they used to manage faster after all he is an alien.

Aliens have feelings too! And what d'you mean, he used to manage faster? It used to take him an hour and a half, MINIMUM, to save planets. Nowadays he does it in HALF that time!

Ace's friends were sort of generic

Really? That girl with the collection tin is one of my all-time favourite non-regulars. Her 'Ace! We thought you were dead. Dead or gone to Birmingham' line would not have been out of place in City of Death.

and I just couldn't get into the plot.

The plot was fantastic! The Master turning into an oochie! An alien world tearing itself to pieces due to its symbiotic link to oochies! Delightful!

As for the money it's not bad that they have it, but they seem to blow the lot on special effects so we lose a lot of episode on effects shots

Actually that did cross my mind during that TARDIS-on-motorway scene in Runaway Bride, which I'm not that wild about...but I honestly don't think anything is actually LOST by making Who so visually spectacular at long last.

Anyway, big budget cuts for Season 5/31, the Moff says it's made them be more inventive, so fingers crossed you'll be happy.

Here is where RTD says he doesn't care

Sorry, I read that charming little interview and totally failed to see anything suggesting RTG doesn't care what fans think.

Course it's not RTD's fault the tabloids wreck things but perhaps he could try lying to confuse us till it came out.

He does that ALL THE TIME! He's the world's greatest liar! Remember Him saying that Who would die on its feet if the Doctor and Rose ever kissed? Remember Him sneering at reports that Kylie would appear? Remember Him announcing that Rose Tyler had left FOREVER in Doomsday??

And just because it's announced in real life doesn't mean it has to be announced in the show as well. Eg Tennant leaving.

Of course it doesn't HAVE to, but a bit of foreshadowing certainly twists the knife nicely...Of course prophecies within the show don't always come true, like Rose dying in battle so very soon (the Beast) and the most faithful Companion dying an everlasting death (Caan).

no supremely inappropriate moments on old or new who.

Personally I consider every moment of the Colin Baker era supremely inappropriate. And then there's Pertwee's friendship with Mao...

That said it would certainly have made midnight a very memorable episode lol a few related Facebook groups would doubtless spring up lol.

Frankly I'm rather worried that a majority of boys in the UK don't consider there's anything wrong hitting a woman. I wouldn't want Who to encourage this particular viewpoint.

Though admittedly Sky WAS pretty bloody annoying.

thinking about it a lot of my male friends in collage watched it but they gradually drifted away from it, it's just the girls now.

Right, well, round up the drifters for a First Night Party and make 'em watch the new Doctor. He seems rather keen on macho violence, they'll love him.

an ungrateful sod who did a year before leaving.

I can hardly disagree with that sentiment, but bear in mind said ungrateful sod DID give us the happiest year of our lives.

The soapy moments are Rose braking up with her boyfriend

Every moment concerning Rose and Mickey-the-idiot is a total joy. And a lot more convincing than Old Who doing romance - David slapping Susan round the face with a dead fish, Leela and Andred (LEELA and ANDRED!!!!!) Mel and Glitz (MEL and GLITZ!!!!!!!) etc...

Martha gagging for the doctor

At least whenever she was being soppy or jealous she wasn't being wooden.

the assistants families would be right at home in any soap especially Martha's

Soap opera families betray their daughter to the Master? Are enslaved by the Prime Minister? Get chased round cathedrals by monsters?

I have GOT to start watching soaps...

Who has stolen genres and it would change from episode to episode the new one doesn't go for one then the other it tries to stuff them all into each episode, emotional time action time soap moment long meaningful look time.

Yes! Exactly my point! New Who crams in EVERYTHING except the kitchen sink! And pulls it off! This is a good and wonderful thing!

However I saw a bit of Mat Smith talking and his dialogue sounded an awful lot like Tennant, please don't James Bond the doctor so his personality is almost exactly the same but different people play him. Ok the new doc is different like all who came before him but don't give the new docs identical personalities.

NO chance of that, SURELY. Eccy n'Tennant were more similar than any two Doctors before them, but still managed to be so delightfully different. And there's no WAY Moffat, of all people, would make the amateurish mistake of trying to turn Matt Smith into a younger, uglier, and utterly inferior Tennant-clone.

I spose it depends how far the Auntons had spread, whilst they can animate anything plastic they need to install the gun hand manually I doubt store dummies come with built in hand gun. Auntons are far safer without the guns on at least then they'd have to catch up with you.

Yeah well it was the 1960s no matter how futuristic you try to make something you are always going to have to fight executive meddling.

You must admit even if it wasn't the case RTD stole the regeneration it LOOKED like he had and those who weren't totally in love with his new who like you were less than pleased about it. I have spoken to fans of the new series who were a bit like "this is a bit too much".

There is a difference between incompetent exterminating and just sunbathing. The doc facing Cann was pretty stupid it could easily have decided exterminating the doctor was the best way to save it's species, they could at least have had the companions behind him with the Dalek tommy guns to give Cann an excuse to run.

If someone says to me "if you don't like what I'm doing watch something else" that sounds like a don't care what you think to me. Also when he said "I'm not writing for fans as they'll only watch it a few times" as a fan I feel insulted. Maybe it's true but you don't HAVE to say it. As i said before good manners cost nothing.

The doc doesn't look of feel elderly any more and that's good enough for me, besides he's knocked a few decades off his age. The first doc was pretty unlikeable if any of us had to hang in a Tardis with him we would be sorely tempted.

I object to Colin Bakers attitude full stop. His quip about the acid bath was very James Bondy. Not bad in a James Bond film but not for the doctor.

I just didn't get on with the Cheater episode maybe I'd like it better with adult eyes but as doctor who is supposed to be for the kids as well it's not so good if I didn't like it cause I was young. Tbh I thought the ep felt a bit trippy.

I'm sure he could lie about stuff other than casting decisions and Rose only returned because he changed his mind. He didn't have to give away Davros by putting him in the advert, granted the Sun had reported Davros's return but the Sun says a lot of things.

As bad as Colin Baker was I would consider someone spanking their 18 year old granddaughter far more inappropriate. I normally have strong moral objections to hitting women but I might make an exception for possessed soul stealing women. Plus Tennant giving her a smacked bottom would doubtless make far too many girls green with envy to provoke any big backlash (yourself included I suspect).

My mates did watch a season or two before giving up so not casual drifters. Anyway with the budget slashed they can't afford to have long scenes shouting at each other through airlocks. The doc needs to hit someone instead. Anyway their series is losing it's male audience maybe they feel a macho season will help reverse the trend a bit. Lets be honest the action scenes have been paid lip service for a few seasons. The overarching theme has been romance, Rose and the Doctor, Rose and Micky, Doc pining for Rose, Martha wanting the doctor, River Song, The Master having a wife etc.

Speak for yourself about that being the happiest year, that said at least Eccy was honest about his dark side Tennat just tried to hide his, badly.

The families may not be in soapy situations but they do act like it. The romance plots in the old series were more often than not an excuse for a companion to leave. At least they never subjected us to a lovers quarrel or Jackie's whine or dun dun dunnnnn Martha's mother.

The new docs are far more variations on a theme than the ones before and if they keep doing it they have limited trends. Still he shouts geronimo so that is a big difference so not quite the same. Still his "don't put me in a trap" speech is a Tennant hands down.

SPOILER ALERT

Moffet has made one mistake his series finale is apparently going to be the opening of the docs "Pandora's box by the most evil being in the universe" one so evil we've never heard of it before lol. Ayway apparently all th docs worst enemies will come out, Daleks, Cybermen, Sontarans, and others like Zygons. Now this sounds like it will be good BUT you can't keep trying to top yourself year after year. The series finales are increasingly full on so one is going to fail epically sooner or later. Well in my opinion the End of Time was that one but on my own eh.

Soap opera families betray their daughter to the Master? Are enslaved by the Prime Minister? Get chased round cathedrals by monsters?

I have GOT to start watching soaps...

Emily, having watched at least one soap within the last 5 years, I'd say you shouldn't waste your time. Though the one I watched had someone being possessed by something and pushing loved ones off balconies, some more murder, a lot of back-stabbing, and betrayal. No monsters or Master, though so, it's waaaaaaaay inferior.

I also remember someone telling me about a soap that had a lot of witchcraft in it or something that did fairly well. Never watched it, though.

I spose it depends how far the Auntons had spread, whilst they can animate anything plastic they need to install the gun hand manually I doubt store dummies come with built in hand gun. Auntons are far safer without the guns on at least then they'd have to catch up with you.

But those Terror daffodils didn't need guns to kill you. And the breast implants Rose immediately thought of WOULD, one assumes, have been quite painful if they'd exploded...or whatever...

Yeah well it was the 1960s no matter how futuristic you try to make something you are always going to have to fight executive meddling.

There was a lot of executive meddling in Who in the 60s?

You must admit even if it wasn't the case RTD stole the regeneration it LOOKED like he had and those who weren't totally in love with his new who like you were less than pleased about it. I have spoken to fans of the new series who were a bit like "this is a bit too much".

Any freak who ISN'T totally in love with New Who has a LOT more problems than objecting to five or ten minutes-worth of End of Time.

The doc facing Cann was pretty stupid it could easily have decided exterminating the doctor was the best way to save it's species, they could at least have had the companions behind him with the Dalek tommy guns to give Cann an excuse to run.

Couldn't agree more. There's no WAY I'm defending ONE MOMENT of Daleks in Manhattan/Evolution of the Daleks. (Interesting, isn't it, that RTG was too ill to rewrite 'em as He did practically everything else...)

If someone says to me "if you don't like what I'm doing watch something else" that sounds like a don't care what you think to me.

How odd. I can't think of RTG being nicer about fans, even those who are slagging Him off:

Question: What do you make of the fan backlash?

DAVIES: It’s not particularly a backlash. What’s actually happening is, well, nothing really to be honest. It’s a few people posting online and getting fans upset. Which is marvelous. It just goes to prove how much they love the character and the actor. People often say, ‘Fans have got their knives out!’ They haven’t got any knives. I haven’t been stabbed. Nothing’s happened. It’s simply a few people typing. I’m glad they’re typing because they’re that involved. But if you can’t handle drama you shouldn’t watch it. Find something else. Go look at poetry. Poetry’s wonderful.

Also when he said "I'm not writing for fans as they'll only watch it a few times" as a fan I feel insulted. Maybe it's true but you don't HAVE to say it. As i said before good manners cost nothing.

You see THAT as rude? RTG saying that He's not writing for the fans as if they hate something that means they'll watch it ten times instead of twenty is not only the exact opposite of what you're claiming, it's so obviously the affectionate and deadly accurate response of...a True Fan.

I object to Colin Bakers attitude full stop.

Hear, hear.

I just didn't get on with the Cheater episode maybe I'd like it better with adult eyes but as doctor who is supposed to be for the kids as well it's not so good if I didn't like it cause I was young.

Fair point, though come to think of it, maybe it was fair enough that Old Who's death-throes SHOULD have been made for the Faithful Few who were still clinging on, rather than kids brand-new to the programme, cos, let's face it, there weren't likely to be many of THOSE...

I'm sure he could lie about stuff other than casting decisions and Rose only returned because he changed his mind.

I got the STRONG impression that He always meant Rose to have her Doctor-flavoured chew toy...

He didn't have to give away Davros by putting him in the advert

He didn't exactly give anything away...this is a DEEPLY embarrassing admission to make, but if the whole of fandom hadn't promptly screamed 'DAVROS! THAT'S DAVROS!' I might not have wondered exactly why that Dalek's top half was in darkness...

As bad as Colin Baker was I would consider someone spanking their 18 year old granddaughter far more inappropriate.

Well, it's not as if the Doc actually DID it...and we have no idea how old Susan really was...

I normally have strong moral objections to hitting women but I might make an exception for possessed soul stealing women. Plus Tennant giving her a smacked bottom would doubtless make far too many girls green with envy to provoke any big backlash (yourself included I suspect).

Excuse me! If there's ONE thing I care more about than TennantDoc, it's feminism...(And EcclesDoc, obviously.)

My mates did watch a season or two before giving up so not casual drifters.

A season or two!!! Casual drifters! LIGHTWEIGHTS!

Lets be honest the action scenes have been paid lip service for a few seasons. The overarching theme has been romance, Rose and the Doctor, Rose and Micky, Doc pining for Rose, Martha wanting the doctor, River Song, The Master having a wife etc.

Let's be honest...you're prejudiced. Anyone else might acknowledge that RTG had an AMAZINGLY PERFECT balance between action-adventure and ACTUAL EMOTIONS, but to you ANY hint of humanity is totally beyond the pale.

(Though I have to admit, during Season 4/30 I DID start wondering if they were piling on hitherto unsuspected wives, daughters, etc etc so that they could kill 'em off and make Tennant pull his 'sad' face...)

Speak for yourself about that being the happiest year, that said at least Eccy was honest about his dark side Tennat just tried to hide his, badly.

Well, wasn't that one of the marvellous, fascinating things about Tennant? The fact he was trying to hide his dark side...and failing so adorably that he actually went mad?

The families may not be in soapy situations but they do act like it. The romance plots in the old series were more often than not an excuse for a companion to leave. At least they never subjected us to a lovers quarrel or Jackie's whine or dun dun dunnnnn Martha's mother.

Yeah, cos Mel/Glitz and Leela/Andred were just SO much better to watch than Francine slapping the Doctor across the face before selling her daughter to the Master...

The new docs are far more variations on a theme than the ones before

HELL, yes. And it's no coincidence that this has resulted in three out of the four greatest Doctors. They found the perfect formula for Eccleston, and why have his successors playing cricket/chucking people in acid baths in a pathetic and desperate attempt to shake things up? The Doctor is, after all, when all's said and done...THE SAME PERSON.

and if they keep doing it they have limited trends.

Oh, if it ever starts feeling REMOTELY 'limited', I think we can trust The Moff to do something new and thrilling and utterly beyond our pathetic human imagination. But it's not likely. 900-year-old alien travelling though space and time in a bigger-on-the-inside police box saving planets...not exactly likely to get tired, is it...?

Still his "don't put me in a trap" speech is a Tennant hands down.

No - it's THE DOCTOR, hands down.

Obviously Tennant being the epitome of all Doctorishness, it's likely to feel a bit Tennanty, but that is SO not a problem...

SPOILER ALERT

Thanks for the warning, I'll just skip over this...

Emily, having watched at least one soap within the last 5 years, I'd say you shouldn't waste your time.

That's OK, I wasn't seriously planning to. Dimensions in Time was more than enough to put me off for life...

The plastic flowers were again Aunton made. We've not seen anything solely human made come to life yet. I don't think breast implants use plastic.

There has always been executive meddling.

Still RTD's attitude goes down badly and he HAS been quoted as saying he doesn't care what his fans think, I'm afraid I can't find it though. I should also point out he had a core of about 7 million people tuning in weekly they class as fans in my book. If his 7 million fans had deserted him some episodes would have been in the minus figures for viewing numbers. If he meant true fans that's what he should have said, the phrase fans includes almost your entire audience.

But the whole of Who fandom did scream Davros and he knew they would scream Davros, we did already have our suspicions after tabloid leaks but no need to give everything away.

Nice to see you have an interest outside of Doctor Who, even if it is feminism. Lol sorry couldn't quite resist it, I'm just a male chauvinist pig. Side note I find women my age can be a bit more laid back about feminism as they didn't have to put up with the inequalities you did. At least not all of them at any rate.

Any hint of humanity doesn’t bother me but if someone I loved was in trouble I wouldn’t waste time shouting at escape pods or staring into middle distance I'd be trying to save them INSTANTLY. Its not the humanity I object to it's just how forced and or overplayed it can be most of the time. And again sure boyfriends, girlfriends, and families do act like that but stop putting them in the ••••••• script already.

Hey at least we only had to put up with Mel and Glitz and Leela and Adred once. We had Martha's mother for 4 or 5 episodes. I use her as an example as I know you like the others, gives you an idea how I feel lol.

You might be in a minority on these three being the best. Eccy wasn't exactly well loved a lot of people myself included felt his Doctory scenes were too forced and he could only do moody out of character acting well. Tennant is good but still isn’t necessarily the best his final episodes left a lot of people with a bitter taste in the mouth. Matt is too new for us to decide yet but he seems cool.

Thing is so far they’ve had moody and sometimes happy doc, happy and sometimes moody doc. This new one looks like they’re doing something different but he was far more like Tennant in the Beast Below than the other two episodes. He might struggle to escape Tenant’s shadow which could damage his chances of setting himself up as a different doc. Let’s face it Tennant was just Eccy on a very good day.

The plastic flowers were again Aunton made. We've not seen anything solely human made come to life yet. I don't think breast implants use plastic.

But *checks Bible...sorry, The Shooting Scripts* the Doc specifically says 'The Consciousness is controlling every single piece of plastic' and 'Think of it. Plastic. All over the world. Every artifical thing, waiting to come alive. The shop window dummies, the phones, the wires, the cables.' Whereupon Rose helpfully says 'The breast implants'.

Though come to think of it, it's quite a leap from 'every piece of plastic' to 'every artificial thing'...

Still RTD's attitude goes down badly and he HAS been quoted as saying he doesn't care what his fans think, I'm afraid I can't find it though.

Well, you'll have to find it so I can see the context before I even START to think He was serious. The guy suggested that Adolf Hitler play the Doctor, He just doesn't mean everything literally.

the phrase fans includes almost your entire audience.

It may to most programmes, but to Who I suspect it means something a little more...fanatical.

I find women my age can be a bit more laid back about feminism as they didn't have to put up with the inequalities you did. At least not all of them at any rate.

I'm not THAT ancient, I haven't had to put with with much more equality than is alive and kicking today...I was just born a feminist the way I was born a Who Fan and a nitpicker.

Any hint of humanity doesn’t bother me but if someone I loved was in trouble I wouldn’t waste time shouting at escape pods or staring into middle distance I'd be trying to save them INSTANTLY.

Yeah, but the Doc's brain is much better than yours. It can yell and stare AND be ticking over at a thousand miles an hour, working out how to save someone. (There was that really LOVELY moment in Beast Below where the Doc puts a glass of water on the ground and he doesn't know why. Even HE can't keep up with his own brain processes.)

Its not the humanity I object to it's just how forced and or overplayed it can be most of the time. And again sure boyfriends, girlfriends, and families do act like that but stop putting them in the ••••••• script already.

So even if someone was the most fascinating parent/lover in the universe, played by the greatest actor on Earth, you'd STILL want them kicked out of the programme?

Hey at least we only had to put up with Mel and Glitz and Leela and Adred once. We had Martha's mother for 4 or 5 episodes.

Seven, actually. *Smirks gleefully, though come to think of it I'm not sure WHY, given that you're quite right about me not exactly being taken with her either*

Eccy wasn't exactly well loved a lot of people myself included felt his Doctory scenes were too forced and he could only do moody out of character acting well.

Philistines!

And he must have been PRETTY popular, given the fury over his departure...

Tennant is good but still isn’t necessarily the best

I hope you're not gonna deny Tennant's the most popular Doctor ever.

his final episodes left a lot of people with a bitter taste in the mouth.

Of course they did. HE LEFT ME MUM HE LEFT ME MUM.

Matt is too new for us to decide yet but he seems cool.

It's too soon for us to give him a definive rank, but it's not too soon to say that he's bloody marvellous and provisionally put him right up there behind Eccy, Tennant and Tom. (Of course, 'fourth best Doctor' actually sounds like a bit of an insult but really, it's the highest possible compliment.)

Thing is so far they’e had moody and sometimes happy doc, happy and sometimes moody doc.

But this is the perfect way to have the Doctor! I mean, they've tried 'Clown Doc' and 'Bland Doc' and 'Murderous Doc' and 'Mysterious Doc' and all that, but they weren't nearly as good.

Let’s face it Tennant was just Eccy on a very good day.

There WAS a certain similarity *sighs rapturously*.

Here's a nice little article that puts a positive spin on the latest series. This guy's been a bit more enraptured with Matt than we have, but Who in all it forms is part of our collective experience (like Star Trek). There is no old vs new.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2010/jun/25/doctor-who-the-big-bang

It's a lovely article, but really - what a slut. 'It took just minutes for nostalgic memories of David Tennant to melt away', indeed! I don't care HOW much you want to have the new Doctor's babies, you do NOT just forget the old one like that!

I think I'd have been annoyed about the scene where Rory fights with his programming if it had been any other companion but this time they'd actually managed to endear Rory to me. Maye it's because they actually included the boyfriend this time or because the doc brought him along because he's sick of his assistant falling for him all the time.

I think I'm getting used to all these over done drama scenes, although this time I felt it was much less OTT than previous seasons.

Plus what was that line? "Less soapy" I believe I said RTD was very soapy further up the page. I also believe they say something about RTD having made the series darker and edgier and Moffett was moving it away from that, I believe that was also contested higher up. Sorry about being smug btw lol.

As they said father Octavian's death was a serious scene but the normal volume words and the docs looks of silent agony made far more impact than any of Tennat's shouting.

My point, since it apparently wasn't very obvious, was that there is no clear-cut deliniation between old and new Who. It's all just Who! Some seasons are better than others; some Doctors are better than others; some plot lines, special effects, villains and good guys are better than others. Boundless examples of all the above exist from Hartnell to Smith. Trying to demonize any of Who's various incarnations is meaningless.

Lol try telling Emily (and most fans) that about Doc 6.

Well, I think he falls into the "some Doctors are better than others" category, although he's been great in the audios (or was, I've stopped listening to them now that we have real Who back).

I think the Audios use his 'real personality' they tried this idea out with him that he was subconsciously blaming Peri for his regeneration and he would eventually get over it, however they realised the serious was in trouble and the execs were calling for him to go so he mended his ways in the break between seasons for Trial of a Time Lord. I think all books and Audios involving him use that personality as if you can bring yourself to watch those ones he's much nicer and far less callous.

As for the difference between old and new, if the series had kept going there probably wouldn't have been one, or rather whatever we had now would be as different as McCoy was from Hartnel but it would have evolved to it gradually instead of a 0 to 60 change. Also the show would be very different I doubt they'd have done the Time war so the doc would resemble his previous incarnations more, as in a Matt Smith not a Tennat or an Eccy. Also also RTD called his first series series one so he clearly sees it as different.

there is no clear-cut deliniation between old and new Who.

The Sixteen Long And Barren Years Of Despair delineated things pretty clearly, as far as I'm concerned. Even leaving aside the fact New Who is utterly and gloriously BETTER.

Trying to demonize any of Who's various incarnations is meaningless.

I don't TRY to demonise Colin, honestly.

I don't HAVE to - it just comes so naturally.

Honestly, you can SEE the crash right there on screen, LITERALLY between one moment and the next - Who is the greatest thing in human history, then WHAM! Davison regenerates, someone else sits up, and your life goes to hell...

Well, I think he falls into the "some Doctors are better than others" category, although he's been great in the audios

No, no, he's in a category ALL OF HIS OWN...Though you're right about the audios, they prove it wasn't actually his FAULT.

(or was, I've stopped listening to them now that we have real Who back).

God. Why (oh why oh why) couldn't I have managed that?

As for the difference between old and new, if the series had kept going there probably wouldn't have been one, or rather whatever we had now would be as different as McCoy was from Hartnel but it would have evolved to it gradually instead of a 0 to 60 change. Also the show would be very different I doubt they'd have done the Time war

I agree on the slow evolution, but I always assumed that we'd end up pretty much where we are now - because the ENTIRE POINT of the human race was to give us the last five years...and the many more years to come...though now you mention it, a Time War would have been considerably less likely...though mind you, the books did decide to spice things up by blowing up Gallifrey in a Time War...

I reckon a continued series would be different in the following ways. No Time War, no Doc falling in love with his assistants, more than 13 eps a year, serialised stories but no big end of season plot, more off Earth, futuristic stuff, and much less assistants family if they were even in it.

RTD did a lot differently, you and I dissagree over how good and bad they were but I doubt he'd have been able to do it if he'd just taken over instead on recreating it. Plus I don't think it would have gone down well if a more oldschool series had ended months before instead of years.

There was a nice comment from RTG on one of the Season 4/30 extras: 'I wanted to create a story for the Doctor. It's like that's the thing it's easy to miss on Doctor Who. You just have the Doctor turn up and put all your energy into the aliens and the plot and the escapes and the chases and the explosions...' Now THAT sums up New Who nicely. It really gives Nine and Ten their own character story-arcs (dunno about Eleven yet). In a way you didn't get before, at least unless you count Hartnell heroically dropping his nasty, murderous, selfish ways.

Colin Baker's approach to the Doctor was to make him someone initially unlikable and then, over a few seasons, reverse that.

First of all, he didn't have the chance to finish it.
Second, the first part of his plan was, as poorly-scripted Daleks would say, 'Success! Paramount Success!'
Third, I do have doubts that he could have made his Doctor as likable as he intended. In addition to what he brought to the role, it would need the help of the writers and costume department to pull off. (To wit: he was not more likable in his second season than in his first.)

But there was an intended arc to his Doctor.

McCoy's Doctor definitely developed, but (like Hartnell) it was more of an on-the-fly development than an actual arc. Actually, it was probably a reaction after some stock-taking of his horrible initial characterisation and stories.

Arcing seems to be more of a modern TV invention. Did they do that sort of story-telling back then? I like arcs; there's great satisfaction when it wraps up at the end of the season, well for me anyway, and it gives an episode more depth when it's part of a larger story. Makes it hard to attract new fans though.

Colin Baker's approach to the Doctor was to make him someone initially unlikable and then, over a few seasons, reverse that.

Oh yeah - totally forgot about that. Mainly cos it didn't happen. He was staggeringly unpleasant for a season, and then suddenly he was considerably less unpleasant for another season. Sadly whatever happened to mellow him happened off-screen...

Third, I do have doubts that he could have made his Doctor as likable as he intended. In addition to what he brought to the role, it would need the help of the writers and costume department to pull off.(To wit: he was not more likable in his second season than in his first.)

Very true, but then if, say, the BBC hierarchy had ORDERED JNT to get rid of THAT costume, ANYTHING ELSE would have IMMEDIATELY rendered Colin a million times more likeable...

McCoy's Doctor definitely developed, but (like Hartnell) it was more of an on-the-fly development than an actual arc. Actually, it was probably a reaction after some stock-taking of his horrible initial characterisation and stories.

Yeah - one season he's bumbling around playing the spoons, the next two seasons - for no readily apparent reason (though one of the books tried to retcon the reason as 'Once Fenric sent Ace I stopped messing around...') he's suddenly some sort of god. (And let's face it, unlike Tennant he is NOT convincing in that role.)

Arcing seems to be more of a modern TV invention. Did they do that sort of story-telling back then?

Maybe 'arc' was the wrong word. Presumably soap operas and stuff do character development gradually over the years without it putting anyone off when they start tuning in?

I see an arc as something that's planned out to some extent, even if the end result differs from how it was originally imagined. That's why I don't really consider Hartnel or McCoy be arcs. Their changes were more the result of some 'Well, that didn't work, did it?' realisations.

In old series terms, Ace and Leela came closest to having arcs, but even that seems a bit generous. (Did Leela really become less savage? And Ace, who wasn't even conceived as a companion, didn't get to finish her story onscreen--though the extra on the Survival DVD gives insight into where she was going, and she would have been the companion who developed the most.)

Another possible old series arc, but I don't think it was planned out, is Jon Pertwee's hair.

I don't think it was Bakers idea to be unlikable he was only following orders. Course thanks to the BBC putting them on their last chance he had to change a lot between episodes. Though he had gotten better as the first series went on.

McCoy did have the who is he? arc. He drops several hints he's a lot older than he says and that woman knows his name which is some terrible secret. They invented that idea that RTD reintroduced years later. We never saw him as Merlin, maybe Smith could me merlin?

We never saw him as Merlin, maybe Smith could me merlin?

Nah. That's Jethro.

Nah. That's Jethro

What about Jed, Elly May, and Granny

Re: Which Jethro is which...?
Tim, I think Mandy's referring to the British "Stand-up" comedian of the same name, rather than the Beverly Hillbillies version...
Mind you, how would say, the First Doctor react if said "hill billies" ended up in the TARDIS for some reason...?

I was referring to the BBC show Merlin. The lead actor is the same one who played Jethro in Midnight.

Oh, okay. Just when I hear the name Jethro, my mind automatically goes to Jethro Bodine

Whereas MY mind automatically goes to jethrik from Ribos Operation *shrugs*.

Anyone else think new Who is getting little too big for it's boots these days? Take the monsters, returning old series monsters should be like the Sontarans or RTD Daleks, same sort of stuff but a few tweaks to make it look less like something knocked up in 5 minutes from a dustbin. However so far they've brought in their own Cybermen, their own Silurians and now their own Daleks. Seriously THEY CHANGED THE DALEKS!!! Apparently they made them different because of Matt's height NOONE HAS THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THEM NOONE especially over that, no other doc had the universe geared round them.

Seriously THEY CHANGED THE DALEKS!!!

Oh, give me a break. Did you not notice the different Daleks in the first series? Hardly gray and black, were they? There have been many versions over the years. The Cybermen have also changed over time (and thank god for that; the original ones were rubbish).

Your complaints about the new series get more far-fetched every time you invent one. You're grasping at straws now.

Danny, it's clear you don't like New Who. Why do you keep watching it?

Anyone else think new Who is getting little too big for it's boots these days?

Given that it's the most important thing in human history, that would surely be impossible.

Take the monsters, returning old series monsters should be like the Sontarans or RTD Daleks, same sort of stuff but a few tweaks to make it look less like something knocked up in 5 minutes from a dustbin.

Actually I preferred the old Sontarans...

However so far they've brought in their own Cybermen

An infinite improvement!

their own Silurians

Ghastly - but they could hardly wheel out the old string-vested Sea Devils, the old red-eye-flashing-to-show-who's-speaking-cos-the-mouth-doesn't-move Silurians, or, of course, the dear old Myrka...

and now their own Daleks. Seriously THEY CHANGED THE DALEKS!!!

Now you sound like a Dalek. One of the purity-obsessed ones.

There have been many versions over the years. The Cybermen have also changed over time (and thank god for that; the original ones were rubbish).

Yeah - change is an integral part of Doctor Who, resulting in 31 series of bliss (well...31 series, anyway), and it's to be embraced. (Unless of course it involves Tom, Eccy, or Tennant leaving, in which case it is to be fought tooth and nail.)

Danny, it's clear you don't like New Who. Why do you keep watching it?

Of course he must keep watching it! Sooner or later the penny will drop that this is what we crawled out of the primordial slime for! (Admittedly most of us has said revelation during 'Rose', but better late than never.)

Given that it's the most important thing in human history, that would surely be impossible.

Did anyone expect any other response from Emily?

The Daleks have changed since their first outing but minutely, different colours, slightly taller a few slats here and there but really nothing else. RTD made the biggest change by giving them a more metallic look and making them look more solid but basically they've been the same thing, until now that is! When I say changed I don't mean a new paint job but their shape, making them look plastic, even their voices, they look like some cheap knock off that's sold in a market. Apparently the Moff got fixated on the idea of them being bright colours like in the Cushing movies. If he wanted that WHAT IS WRONG WITH SPRAY PAINT?

And you are right the Cybermen have always changed BUT they have changed very little since the Invasion back in the 60s so their look has been established for decades. And don't knock the originals they were actually pretty freaky and look much better on camera than they do in the pics of them. My point about the Cybermen isn't that these ones are different it's that these aren't the Mondonesian Cybermen in their new kit, these are New Who's replacements. Just like the Daleks are new who's replacements and the Silurians are new who's replacements. They aren't just updating the monsters they are replacing the originals with their own. And I really don't think that's grasping at straws.

And they could always wheel out the CGI Myrka and the Silirians with better makeup so they could move their mouths it's not that difficult. And they looked better as total aliens as opposed to the rubber forehead ones they have now.

As for why i still watch, well I am the eternal optimist, Maybe Davros will lead his imperial daleks to victory over the plastic monstrosities, maybe the Moff will get the money to make his Mondonesian cybermen look a bit different, maybe they will spend some money on future costumes and guns.

As for why i still watch, well I am the eternal optimist

You may be some sort of optimist, but in the meantime you continue to inflict your hatred of the show on the rest of us. Here's a news flash: WE LIKE IT (except for the new Daleks, of course). Nitpickers are fans picking on their favorite show for fun, not because it no longer lives up to our warped expectations for it.

If you don't like this program, please take your discontent elsewhere.

Sorry, everyone, if this out of line, but for crying out loud, why would you continue to come to these boards if you hate the show? Watch something else already.

Excuse me-it looks like it's time to step in it again!!!

Amanda-what the **** gives you the right to order someone to take his discontent elsewhere???(Only Phil, and maybe Emily has the right to do that).

This page is here for people to give their feelimgs on Doctor Who-good and bad. Not everyone loves new Who)--and I have yet to see anyone who loves everything about it.

Dan may be harsh-but some of what he says rings true; how much time has been spent gripping about the new Sontarans,Silurians, and plastic Daleks???

The biggest rule here(and I've seem this one broken more than once here)-is no personnel attacks on other posters here--not that you have to praise(or even like) the subject of the page(take a look at what is said on some of the entrees in movies if you want to see hatred for the subject)!!

If you start chasing people with different views off this page-you will soon have no one but the old-timers left here; and the page will wither and die.

And yes-I have my fair share(and maybe more) of gripes about New Who; I also think I have thoughts and opinions that might be of interest to others--but I will not roll over and play dead on someone else's orders.

Daniel's anti-New Who campaign has sucked the fun out of this site for me. It used to be full of irreverent observations, but now it's just a Who-bashing forum. If that's what the rest of you want, knock yourselves out, but I think I've had enough.

As for you, JEP, you've been here how long? And since your inauspicious debut, you've done nothing but complain about these boards. You have zero credibility with me.

Nothing positive comes out of you or Daniel. What good is this board now?

OK, everyone calm down! OBVIOUSLY everyone's totally in the right - John and Daniel have the right to air their negative opinions (god knows there were times during the Sixteen Long And Barren Years Of Despair when MY devotion to Who was questioned), and Mandy has the right to object to their moaning ruining her life (and god knows I always enjoy a good heretic-burning myself).

Let's just TRY a Christmas-spirit experiment where we either a) be positive about things, or b) only slag off the things we can all agree on (viz, new Dalek design and K9 Season One). OK?

And let's just stop this particular conversation in its tracks right now.

only slag off the things we can all agree on (viz, new Dalek design and K9 Season One). OK?

Uuuummmm.... I don't agree about slagging off K9 season one....

All right, fair enough. I suppose I can somehow get over having my life ruined. In a few days I'll have Who's Christmas Carol to watch and that will no doubt cheer me up! (Unless it's like that space whale story in which case it's all over.)

Uuuummmm.... I don't agree about slagging off K9 season one....

Oh, stuff n'nonsense! We've all SEEN you attempt to throttle yourself with your own entrails!

In a few days I'll have Who's Christmas Carol to watch and that will no doubt cheer me up! (Unless it's like that space whale story in which case it's all over.)

Oh, it's NEVER all over...it's a contract for life, written in blood (as one of the NAs said about being a Companion)...

If you want a Who bashing forum Amanda I suggest you try the rest of the Net. This is one of the few places new Who's defenders are in the majority.

BTW K9 season 1? I thought that show never got past the pilot.

As for the new Daleks I saw one in an advert the other day (which was what caused me to write the original post), they broke the two golden rules of them. Number one only film them in dark conditions, and number two only film from the front. They filmed this one in bright light, side on ARGH!

O.K; people, lets try it this way:

Emily has a point(does anyone know how much it hurts me to say this?)--lets bury the hatchet and try for peace.

Amanda: what you said was rather harsh--but I've had some issues in my life recently, and might have over-reacted. If I did I'm sorry.

Daniel: It might help to think of New Who as being a reboot instead of a continuation(?) of Old Who(think Sci-Fi's Battlestar Galactica compared to classic Battlestar Galactica(with Lorne Greene)--although the names(for ships enemies and people) were the same--everything else was different. This didn't stop both from telling good stories--but it did allow the new people to build their own world.

Note:although I have issues with New Who-I feel that most are strictly with New Who, and not New Who v.s. Old Who.

BTW K9 season 1? I thought that show never got past the pilot

Actually they did a whole season and a second one has been comissioned.

It might help to think of New Who as being a reboot instead of a continuation(?) of Old Who(think Sci-Fi's Battlestar Galactica compared to classic Battlestar Galactica(with Lorne Greene)--although the names(for ships enemies and people) were the same--everything else was different. This didn't stop both from telling good stories--but it did allow the new people to build their own world.

That's precisely what it ISN'T

Lordy- how many references to the old series do you need? The biggest one being Doc 10 meeting Doc 5. Let's not forget the countless references to other Docs (too many to list here) or the number of references to past companions/monsters/stories. Sorry, no.

I've had some issues in my life recently, and might have over-reacted. If I did I'm sorry.
Wow- what a copout. You're not the first to use the "I've been going through issues" defense when called on bad behavior. It doesn't excuse your behaviour. Goodness knows I've rankled other posters here (including our former mod and the current one) but I'll stand by convictions for better or for worse- or better yet- try and engage my brain before posting. If you're having "issues" I suggest you sleep on your thoughts and then decide in the morning whether you should say it- it'll make your stay here a lot more of a pleasant one.

If you're having "issues" I suggest you sleep on your thoughts and then decide in the morning whether you should say it- it'll make your stay here a lot more of a pleasant one.

Well, to be fair, I'd have to plead guilty to a little bit of that myself. Not that I don't mean what I say, but some things are perhaps better left unsaid. Judgement is the first victim of irritation.

And no, I don't think New Who is a reboot either, not even close. Nor do I think any of the new series changes are any bigger than other changes at various times in Who's history. Why Daniel would exaggerate some things and ignore other equally continuity-busting events from the past makes for frustratingly weak arguments.

"The Daleks have changed!" The Daleks have always changed. "The Cybermen are different!" They've evolved, too. "Who is gay!" Well, um... did I mention the Daleks have changed?

BTW K9 season 1? I thought that show never got past the pilot.

And what exactly did you THINK Rodney and I have been discussing IN THE K9 SECTION...?

Oh, and chalk up another vote for the OVER MY DEAD BODY IS NEW WHO A REBOOT! camp...

Okay-I will admit at this point I've only seen 4 seasons--but what else can it be???

I mean-nothing has stayed the same:

Daleks:massive upgrade-from almost a joke to taking out the Time Lords.

Cybermen-totally new-new origin.

Sontarans-redone into a sad joke.

Autons-now seem to be following some kind of rules(was it the shadow accord??).

Most of the rest are new,and never seen before.

The Doctor-many of the people here are still up in arms about how he's changed(he now feels love,lust,passion and others)--and this is the only time I've seen him so out of control that I felt sorry for a Dalek. At no point has the 12 regeneration limit been mentioned(after having problems for much of Old Who-even the Master has regenerated twice).

The Tardis-now a living being,it's unclear how smart it is. It used to be a machine(Doc three pull large section out to work on at UNIT,Doc four dropped a good chunk(including Romanas room) to escape E-space,and Doc five dumped 25% to get out of a trap by the Master.The Eye Of Harmony(?) is now on the Tardis-not safe back at home(although this was first seen in the U.S. made movie)-and the Tardis still works with Gallifrey gone(would not be possible in Old Who).

There are only 2 places which cast doubt on this-the return of Sarah Jane Smith, and the meeting of Tennent and Davison.

When Sarah left in Old Who she was moving on(also seen in the K9 special, and "The Five Doctors") and facing life on her own. She saw him as a friend(and was not in love with him)-and I like to think of her having many adventures on her own(this is what I'd want SJA to be).

On the other hand in New Who-she became a recluse with no one to relate to because of her adventures(note:in Old Who this time has more friends and ex-companions than any other place in history) and wastes the next 30 years until the Doctor returns and pushes her to start living again(I would expect some people here to raise unholy Hades on this). By the way_she loves him and he broke her heart.

Thus,in spite of Liz Sladen playing both -I veiw it as two different Sarahs- with mine still happily living out there.

As for the Tennent/Davison meeting-it only happened in a "Children in Need" special.

If you look at the end of "Last of the Time Lords" and the begining of "Tme Crash" you see the same sequence(no Davison story though)leading straight from one to the other. This marks the meeting as non-canon-thus it doesn't count(it also explains why Tennent is such a gushing fanboy here).

So I have no problem seeing New Who as a reboot-not the continueing story from Old Who.

Sorry if I've been a bit longwinded-I've had grips about my stating something without backing it up.

I'll let Emily's encyclopedic knowledge destroy the last post; I can't even make sense of some of it as the ideas are only half-expressed: "There are only 2 places which cast doubt on this" -- cast doubt on what?

Not to mention baseless assumptions: "This marks the meeting as non-canon-thus it doesn't count." Says who? Time Crash looks like canon to me, same actors and everything.

Thus,in spite of Liz Sladen playing both -I veiw it as two different Sarahs- with mine still happily living out there.

It's funny though how she still talks about the old times, still sees the Brig, still has K-9...etc.

As for the Tennent/Davison meeting-it only happened in a "Children in Need" special.

So did "The Five Doctors". Your point? Does this mean the first scenes of TennantDoc are non-canonical? Your argument is not very sound at all.

This marks the meeting as non-canon-thus it doesn't count(it also explains why Tennent is such a gushing fanboy here).

Like heck it does. If RTD says it's canon, IT'S CANON.

Sorry if I've been a bit longwinded-I've had grips about my stating something without backing it up.
Then perhaps you should have waited until you COULD back them up. Instead you've provided no reasonable explanations for anything except blanket statements. It's a good thing Luigi Novi doesn't post on these boards because he'd tear you to shreds. Instead, like Amanda, I shall leave you to the "tender mercies" of Emily...

Okay-maybe I wasn't long-winded enough.

Amanda:I'll let Emily's encyclopedic knowledge destroy the last post; I can't even make sense of some of it as the ideas are only half-expressed: "There are only 2 places which cast doubt on this" -- cast doubt on what?

Cast doubt on my main premise-that New Who is a reboot(sorry-at that point I thought I had made it obvious).

Amanda:Not to mention baseless assumptions: "This marks the meeting as non-canon-thus it doesn't count." Says who? Time Crash looks like canon to me, same actors and everything.

As far as I know-in this group it's only canon if it part of an aired episode(I'm sure Emily will correct me if I'm wrong)--by-this rule(and the fact that 2 stories clearly say it didn't happen)-I concluded that it was non-canon.

As for how they looked-Davison never looked like that in any Old Who story that I've ever seen(and if how they look determines all-does this mean youtube clips like "The New Two Doctors" and "The Ten Doctors" are now canon--this could cause many headaches for Emily!).

Sorry Rodney: Your post came up while I was replying to Amanda-I didn't see it until after I posted.

As for New Who being a reboot--this is an opinion-I first brought it up hoping to make New Who easier for Daniel to live with, but I do feel it's reasonable and correct.

Rodney:It's funny though how she still talks about the old times, still sees the Brig, still has K-9...etc.

Just because something is a reboot does not mean that similar things can't happen(the reboot of Battlestar Galactica also had Adama,Apollo,Starbuck.Boomer and others on Galactica fighting cylons after their homeworlds were destroyed-most other things were different though).

Rodney:
So did "The Five Doctors". Your point? Does this mean the first scenes of TennantDoc are non-canonical? Your argument is not very sound at all.

Did it?? I've never seen it treated as anything but a standard part of its season(Emily-could you verify that for us)??

About TennantDocs first scenes-if the only place they were seen was in "Children in Need" I would say that they were non-canon. On the other hand-if they were seen(as I seem to remember)-that makes them canon(and "Children in Need" a preview).

Rodney:Like heck it does. If RTD says it's canon, IT'S CANON.

Excuse me-is this the same RTD that Emily has called a liar so often???

Rodney:Then perhaps you should have waited until you COULD back them up. Instead you've provided no reasonable explanations for anything except blanket statements. It's a good thing Luigi Novi doesn't post on these boards because he'd tear you to shreds. Instead, like Amanda, I shall leave you to the "tender mercies" of Emily...

Since I have 1 main premise here-that New Who is a reboot, everything else is supporting peoof--I feel that I have done just that--and although new at this I think I did a passable job.

As for Emily--as I am just talking about New Who(not attacking it) I hope she won't be too harsh
and welcome constructive critisism(?) from her.

Did it?? I've never seen it treated as anything but a standard part of its season(Emily-could you verify that for us)??
No need to bother Emily on this one- from the WIkipedia article...

"The broadcast in the United Kingdom was delayed two days so it could coincide with the BBC's Children in Need charity night"

About TennantDocs first scenes-if the only place they were seen was in "Children in Need" I would say that they were non-canon. On the other hand-if they were seen(as I seem to remember)-that makes them canon(and "Children in Need" a preview).
The main problem with this is that the scene in question explains why the Doctor Rose don't turn up on Barcelona. To my mind it is every bit as canonical as the extra TARDIS scenes on the fifth series dvd's.

Excuse me-is this the same RTD that Emily has called a liar so often???

If I recall correctly, she only called him liar insomuch as he would lead fans up a particular path in interviews so as not to spoil what he was ultimately going for in terms of plot developments. As far as I know, he has never lied retrospectively....

As far as I know-in this group it's only canon if it part of an aired episode

Where does it say that? Some people feel that way, others even want to include the books. I like to think of the Big Finish productions as semi-canon because they have the real actors in them, as do the Children in Need specials. Speaking of which, they are aired and seen by millions. Doesn't get much more canon than that.

As for how they looked-Davison never looked like that in any Old Who story that I've ever seen

What does how he looked have to do with it? (They even explained it in the dialog.) Tom looked like an old man in Leisure Hive, as did Tennant in a couple of stories. So now an actor's performance only counts if he looks the same? Sounds like the logic Daniel applies to Who monsters; Daleks and Cybermen only count if they're identical to the old series.

In many ways new Who is a reboot. Yes I know it's really a continuation BUT. They rebooted the docs personality after the destruction of the time lords, they rebooted the universe after the time war so they suddenly have their own timeline to play around with. They have their own re imagined Daleks, Cybermen, and Silurains. They want the freedom of a reboot without putting in the effort and taking the risk.

And come on Amanda you have to give me the fact that previous Dalek changes have been largely cosmetic. And the few exceptions like the special weapons Dalek and the emperor Daleks were great successes and were the exceptions rather than the norm. The new plastic lot could have the greatest episode to themselves ever and people would still be wincing every time they appeared on screen. I think we should expose them to UV light so they would become brittle and snap!

They rebooted the docs personality after the destruction of the time lords

The Doctor seems the same to me (in that each actor is different and you don't have any one personality to point to).

They have their own re imagined Daleks, Cybermen, and Silurains.

None of the monsters in Who have stayed the same over time and some of them have changed quite a lot.

They want the freedom of a reboot without putting in the effort and taking the risk.

Are you saying RTD didn't put in any effort when he brought back the new series? That he didn't take any risks? Have you read anything about him?

you have to give me the fact that previous Dalek changes have been largely cosmetic

True, as have the recent changes to the Daleks. Even the godawful iDaleks really aren't very different, just slightly bigger and with a hump. Old series Daleks changed much more than that, what with the big-headed Dalek, the black and white ones, and other specialized units.

the special weapons Dalek and the emperor Daleks were great successes

Great successes? If you say so. Personally I hated them -- a lot.

The new plastic lot could have the greatest episode to themselves ever and people would still be wincing every time they appeared on screen.

Which just goes to show how color sensitive we all are. If you really look at them, they just aren't that different and yet we despise them. Strange really.

I think we should expose them to UV light so they would become brittle and snap!

Seconded.

The Doctor-many of the people here are still up in arms about how he's changed(he now feels love,lust,passion and others)

Whereas before he merely got engaged and had granddaughters and snogged surgeons and suchlike...

and this is the only time I've seen him so out of control that I felt sorry for a Dalek.

That might possibly have something to do with the fact that every other member of his species is dead thanks to the Daleks...?

At no point has the 12 regeneration limit been mentioned(after having problems for much of Old Who-even the Master has regenerated twice).

And you're wondering why they're avoiding mentioning that pointless, illogical, War Games-contradicting, Who-longevity-threatening limit...? (Aside from the fact the Doc didn't tell Rose, Martha OR Donna about regeneration until he was either about to do it, or THOUGHT he was...)

The Tardis-now a living being

Whereas in, for example, Edge of Destruction, she was the epitome of machine-logic...

The Eye Of Harmony(?) is now on the Tardis-not safe back at home(although this was first seen in the U.S. made movie)

That was ONLY the telemovie. I don't remember RTG OR Moffat Who mentioning the Eye at all.

and the Tardis still works with Gallifrey gone(would not be possible in Old Who).

So the Doctor had to find another source of energy - and used space-time rifts to refuel instead of the Eye of Harmony. Big deal. (Admittedly I much preferred Adventuress of Henrietta Street's more drastic interpretation of what would happen to the Doctor, TARDIS, and entire universe if Gallifrey went boom, but never mind.)

There are only 2 places which cast doubt on this-the return of Sarah Jane Smith, and the meeting of Tennent and Davison.

Wrong. There are LITERALLY too many proofs-that-it's-all-one-glorious-show to bother mentioning...

But never mind the mountain of evidence...search your own heart: if I yell TENNANT! at you, what's your first thought? That's he's the Tenth Doctor? Or that he's the Second Doctor...?

When Sarah left in Old Who she was moving on(also seen in the K9 special, and "The Five Doctors") and facing life on her own. She saw him as a friend(and was not in love with him)-and I like to think of her having many adventures on her own(this is what I'd want SJA to be).

'Moving on'? She was about as ready to leave the Doctor as Rose Tyler was! And pre-new-series (and post-K9 and Company) the LAST thing I liked to think of was her having many adventures on her own...

On the other hand in New Who-she became a recluse with no one to relate to because of her adventures(note:in Old Who this time has more friends and ex-companions than any other place in history)

It's not like they ever TALKED to each other. How else d'you think the Brig managed to get away with that amnesia nonsense for SIX YEARS?

and wastes the next 30 years until the Doctor returns and pushes her to start living again(I would expect some people here to raise unholy Hades on this).

Why? That rang SO true. Personally, I've wasted 34 years waiting for the Doctor to turn up. And I'm only 37.

By the way_she loves him and he broke her heart.

Yeah, that too *sigh*. The Doc's a fickle heartbreaking git. Here's to the next 34 years of waiting for him...

Thus,in spite of Liz Sladen playing both -I veiw it as two different Sarahs- with mine still happily living out there.

You have GOT to be kidding.

As far as I know-in this group it's only canon if it part of an aired episode

You'll find Time Crash right here on this board under Season 4. However I'm perfectly happy to let you lump it in with Curse of Fatal Death as non-canonical...because I have SO MUCH PROOF that the new series is a continuation of the old that I don't NEED Davison popping up. (There are, for example, him AND PLENTY OF OTHER previous Doctors in Human Nature. And Eleventh Hour. And Vincent and the Doctor. Matt's even got Hartnell's bloody LIBRARY CARD in Vampires of Venice. Are you suggesting he STOLE it or what?)

As for how they looked-Davison never looked like that in any Old Who story that I've ever seen

As Mandy says, there was a perfectly good on-screen explanation for this! And what you look like has never exactly been of paramount importance. Otherwise One in Five Doctors, Two n'Jamie in Two Doctors, and even Three in certain Monster of Peladon fight scenes would be in SERIOUS trouble...

As for New Who being a reboot--this is an opinion-I first brought it up hoping to make New Who easier for Daniel to live with

Daniel will have a far happier and saner long-term future if he accepts that Who has thirty-one glorious years (albeit with a few minor inconsistencies) than if you attempt to twist the entire universe to suit his prejudices.

What was it that Tom said about 'the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering'...?

Just because something is a reboot does not mean that similar things can't happen(the reboot of Battlestar Galactica also had Adama,Apollo,Starbuck.Boomer and others on Galactica fighting cylons after their homeworlds were destroyed-most other things were different though).

So what you're saying is the basic scenario and a few names are the same but everything else (including Starbuck's gender, I gather) is UTTERLY INCOMPATIBLE? This compares to the Who situation HOW, exactly?

The main problem with this is that the scene in question explains why the Doctor Rose don't turn up on Barcelona.

Exactly! According to Jep's vision of the universe, The Christmas Invasion should therefore involve dogs with no noses rather than Sycorax...

If I recall correctly, she only called him liar insomuch as he would lead fans up a particular path in interviews so as not to spoil what he was ultimately going for in terms of plot developments. As far as I know, he has never lied retrospectively....

Well, quite! Not that we need author-statements to back up the BLATANTLY OBVIOUS FACT this is the same programme (hell, if anything it goes TOO far in establishing this. I still can't believe Davros and Sarah got to reminisce about their Genesis days in Journey's End, whereas Rose didn't get so much as a hello OR goodbye with Captain Jack OR Mickey-the-idiot...).

They rebooted the docs personality after the destruction of the time lords

Er...I think that's what's known as 'character development'.

they rebooted the universe after the time war so they suddenly have their own timeline to play around with.

The universe wasn't rebooted (until The Big Bang, at least, where it seems remarkably similar to previously, give or take a few extra Ponds). We lesser species were left remarkably unaffected by the Time War.

They have their own re imagined Daleks, Cybermen, and Silurains.

The Daleks and Cybermen were always redesigning themselves in Old Who. And it established the fact that the Silurians had different-looking relatives.

They want the freedom of a reboot without putting in the effort and taking the risk.

UH?

RTG is a True Fan - the last thing He wanted was the alleged 'freedom' of a stinking blasphemous reboot. And He put so much effort into New Who that it's a miracle it didn't kill Him. As for 'risk'...have you any idea how much the BBC despised Who pre-2005? How much LESS risky it would have been to offer it a reboot instead of the Real Thing?

Are you saying RTD didn't put in any effort when he brought back the new series? That he didn't take any risks? Have you read anything about him?

Yeah, I think a reading of The Writer's Tale: The Final Chapter might be in order.

you have to give me the fact that previous Dalek changes have been largely cosmetic

True, as have the recent changes to the Daleks.

Quite. It's just that THIS time, the bubbling lumps of hate have no aesthetic sense. Unsurprisingly. What was it they said in Doomsday? 'DA-LEKS HAVE NO SENSE OF EL-E-GANCE'?

Old series Daleks changed much more than that, what with the big-headed Dalek, the black and white ones, and other specialized units.

Ooh, and I'm sure I spotted some stripy ones in Dalek Invasion of Earth...

I remember reading an interview RTD gave before the New Series started. He said that Who was "continuing on, not starting again."

So this is the same series and character that started in 1963.

It's stunning, actually, to think that they've managed to maintain so much continuity over such a long lifespan. I'd have to give similar credit to only one other TV show: Star Trek. And Trek isn't quite so long-lived nor has so many episodes (although it did make the jump to the big screen successfully).

Both series are a testament to the dedication of all the various people who've made them over the years (speaking of which, Who has had far more chiefs in the kitchen than Trek so it's even more remarkable for them).

chiefs = chefs

Sheesh-How do I get in so much hot water just stating a simple opinion????

Well Emily-I got into this trying to help you unify the group--and suceeded beyond my wildest dreams(but did everyone have to take arms against me????).

While I feel that I can hold my own with each of you taken one-on-one, I have no clue how to deal with this. Add to this that I'm fighting with one hand tied behind my back(as I said above-I've only seen the first four seasons of New Who).

Note:SOME OF WHAT I AM ABOUT TO SAY IS BASED ON THINGS I HAVE READ HERE-NOT ON THINGS I HAVE SEEN MYSELF--THIS MEANS I CANNOT KNOW IF IT'S 100% ACCURATE!!!!!

Part of the problem is that while RTD and his first four seasons(and maybe the year of specials) seem to say this is a reboot.

On the other hand-from what I read here-Smiths first season(with Moffat in charge)--seems to be trying to ret-con the series back to being a continuation of the old series.

Based on the first four seasons-as I have said before-I have no problem calling this a reboot.

If you count the rest-it seems to change into something else(and as people have chewed me out when they thought I was commenting on things I had yet to see--I'd better shut up now).

Final note: Am I the only one wondering about membership of "The league of Super Evil"(not my term)- and the fact that we have new plastic Daleks????

John, you seem to be confusing a reboot with a retcon.

A reboot is when something is started again from scratch. Your example of the new Battlestar Galactica is one such reboot in that they started over completely. New BG had NOTHING to do with the old 1970's BG.

However, New Who can be called a retcon in that established facts are changed (the Time War could be blamed for this). However, it is the same show, same characters (in the Next Doctor, when the Tenth Doctor looks at that memory thing, we see images of all the previous Doctors from Hartnell to Eccelston). Also the presence of Sarah Jane and K9, plus references to Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart (who appeared on an episode of Sarah Jane's show) clearly indicates that this is the same universe we last saw in 1989. It may have undergone some changes, but is it the same old place we all know and love.

Tim, no-I don't think I am.

Again I note: I have not yet seen either the year of specials or Smiths first season- I have only seen the first 4 season of New Who.

If you look at the first four seasons of New Who they seem to go out of their way to avoid showing anything on any of the old doctors(would it have cost that much to have included an old photo of Tom or Peter in the 2 times that "Doctor" and "blue box" were looked up-I doubt they're much in demand today). As they choose to do this almost every time(I mentioned the only 2 possible exceptions that I know about above).Since this seems to be a pattern-leading me to feel this is as much of a reboot as New BG is to Old BG.

About "The Next Doctor"--it is the first of the specials,and as I mention above-I have not seen it yet. From what you say-they seem to be re-introducing(?) aspects of Old Who into New Who-making the last two seasons a retcon of New Who.

Thus it looks to me like what we have is:

Old Who

New Who-a reboot of Old Who(first 4 seasons of New Who)

New New Who-a retcon of New Who-bringing Old Who back into the mixture(the year of specials and Smiths first year).

At least-this is how it looks to me right now.

You're complaining that New Who doesn't reference its past enough. When did any of the Old Who Doctors refer to previous ones? (Offhand I can't think of any time, but I'm sure there must be one or two.) How often did it mention previous stories? Not often.

New Who, on the other hand, HAS referenced other Doctors and events, although perhaps more noticably in the Gap Year. New Who is saturated with Old Whoness: the same characters, the same props, the same villains, the same mythos.

Compare that against a few cosmetic changes and the Doctor suddenly becoming a kiss-victim and that's about it. (I mention the kissing simply because it is a notable difference, but I would also point out that the Doctor hasn't kissed anyone; they've kissed him. And no, I don't count the genetic transfer!)

It's also worth pointing out that the Doctor has also developed the ability to love, but there hasn't been anything sexual about it, just basic affection. It took a while to get used to that, but it hasn't changed the dynamic of the series (unlike Starbuck changing into a woman).

New Who is neither a retcon nor a reboot. It's simply a continuation of the series so far with a few social and technical updates thrown in.

It's stunning, actually, to think that they've managed to maintain so much continuity over such a long lifespan.

It is, isn't it. And to think the record could so easily have been PERFECT. If only they'd been a bit more vague about dates, Dalek history and Time Lord biology...

And Trek isn't quite so long-lived nor has so many episodes (although it did make the jump to the big screen successfully).

Those Cushing movies were HIGHLY successful! Just not among people of taste and discernment.

Both series are a testament to the dedication of all the various people who've made them over the years

Hear, hear! WORSHIP THEM! WORSHIP THEM! (Well, most of 'em anyway. One or two (mentioning no JNTs) could perhaps be buried at the crossroads with a stake through their heart instead.)

Sheesh-How do I get in so much hot water just stating a simple opinion????

Oh, YOU'RE not in hot water! You get a gold star for coming up with such a FANTASTIC way of getting us discussing how totally we love the entirety of our forty-seven-and-a-bit years of Who-y happiness. It's just your crazy 'opinion' that's so, well, crazy. Though of course I know you don't believe it REALLY.

Add to this that I'm fighting with one hand tied behind my back(as I said above-I've only seen the first four seasons of New Who).

Oh. Yeah. Sorry. You DID say that and it just didn't register with me. Again. (I did mention that stuff I'm unable to grasp I'm also pathologically unable to remember, right?) I really wouldn't have hit you with all that Specials/Season Five stuff if I HAD got my head around this totally bizarre concept of not watching Who. It's not like there aren't plenty of other Doctors' faces in The Journal of Impossible Things, after all. Or Eccy mentioning that he'd worked for UNIT a long time ago. Or - as well as appearances of ALL the major monsters and villains from Old Who* - mentions of everything from venom grubs to Isop galaxies (and - my personal favourite, albeit slightly non-canonical - one of End of the World's CGI Spiders bumping into the camera in homage to that Zarbi...)

On the other hand-from what I read here-Smiths first season(with Moffat in charge)--seems to be trying to ret-con the series back to being a continuation of the old series.

Absolutely not. It's just that you're having to take our word for all the Old Who references in Season 5/31. Had you actually SEEN it, you'd immediately be sticking your hands over your eyes shouting I CAN'T SEE YOU whenever all those Hartnell pictures appeared. The way you do with all those references in Seasons 1-4.

Based on the first four seasons-as I have said before-I have no problem calling this a reboot.

Obviously, comrades, it is time to GIVE the blasphemer a problem for calling this a reboot. Who's got a plank? Cos I'm voting for the Test of the Horda...

Also the presence of Sarah Jane and K9, plus references to Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart

The reference to 'Sir Alistair' in Sontaran Stratagem was particularly telling, wasn't it. Utterly puzzling and pointless for the millions of new fans, but it HAD to go in there, BECAUSE IT'S THE SAME BLOODY SHOW!

If you look at the first four seasons of New Who they seem to go out of their way to avoid showing anything on any of the old doctors

I'm not denying that AT FIRST RTG was quite cautious - ensuring that only True Fans would spot the numerous references. (Give or take the Doctor, the TARDIS, the Time Lords, the Autons, the Daleks, etc etc.) Partly, I suspect, because the BBC was in a state of Old Who-loathing, and partly because the JNT era had taught us all a very stern lesson about how many viewers you use when your continuity disappears up its own - um, well, you get the picture.

Of course, there might have been a third reason, which was that, just as RTG was following the Old Who pattern in introducing the monsters (first Daleks, then Cybermen, then Macra, then the Master, then Sontarans, then Davros) He was also following Old Who's pattern of introducing the Doctor as a mystery and exquisitely gradually drip-feeding us information about him...you'll note that Hartnell and Troughton never mentioned the word 'Gallifrey' any more than Eccy did.

But take a long, lingering look (as the Ainley Master would say (you know...the one WHOSE VOICE WE HEARD IN UTOPIA!!!)) at the Journal of Impossible things and THEN tell me they're not all the same Doctor.

When did any of the Old Who Doctors refer to previous ones? (Offhand I can't think of any time, but I'm sure there must be one or two.)

Yeah, the Docs REALLY don't like confronting their past lives, do they? It no doubt freaks THEM out the same way it freaks ME out when I think of Colin being the same person as Eccy, or Matt basically being Tennant's walking corpse...

How often did it mention previous stories? Not often.

Actually by the JNT era it became distressingly common, which is why we had the likes of Attack of the Cybermen, pointlessly trying to tie together Tenth Planet and Tomb of the Cybermen, and failing disastrously on every level...

New Who is saturated with Old Whoness: the same characters, the same props, the same villains, the same mythos.

THAT'S the word. Saturated. Even if there hadn't been one direct mention of previous eras, it would still be utterly and undoubtedly Grade A Who - just distilled and purified and rendered so INFINITELY better...

It's also worth pointing out that the Doctor has also developed the ability to love

Well, we THINK he has. And a mad Dalek thinks he has. But let's face it - if you love someone do you REALLY deliberately dump them in an alternative universe where you can never see them again? And it's not like the Doc seems to have given Rose a single thought during the whole of Season 5/31...

*Well, maybe not quite ALL the villains. Just the Master, Davros, Rassilon, that sort of thing. No Rani yet, thank the gods.

Attack of the Cybermen, pointlessly trying to tie together Tenth Planet and Tomb of the Cybermen, and failing disastrously on every level...

I think the problem there was AOTC replied on two stories that had been destroyed years before (bad BBC). Of course Tomb was eventually found, but it was far too last by then.

You are right Amanda none of who's monsters stayed the same BUT these are not those monsters. The Daleks that will glide on screen next year are not the ones we've watched for 30yrs. These Cybermen are not the ones we loved to hate and though everything was excellent, and the Silurians are not the ones that scared us all as kids. They are all new who's own inventions, except the Cybermen possibly who might just have been brought back. And come on you have to give me the fact that Dalek changes in the past were cosmetic, a few slats here, a disc there, a new coat of paint there a larger fender there nothing like what they just did has been done before ever.

And as said before you are right the Cybermen did change BUT not since the invasion, since then they have had a few minor things done and since Earthshock they've not changed at all. The only big changes since the Invasion were them wearing silver flight suits (because they couldn't get the old stuff any more) and taking the weapons out of their bodies, which is deffo a plus, the head mounted guns in Revenge of the Cybermen were just ridiculous.

I think new who missed a trick, instead of having the new series in an earth almost exactly like ours (except with a more powerful UN) have one where they kept all their advanced tech from the UNIT years. Fend off the Daleks with the disintegrator guns, unleash your tanks made of living metal at the Cybermen, use your Z bombs on the orbiting Sontaran warship.

Who has always changed and would probably have evolved into something similar eventually (probs in the future) but they jumped too much. Of course RTD put the effort in but his show pays lip service to the old, Eccy and Tennant were docs like no other, the originals were all pretty similar except for Hartnel's easing in period and Bakers mad bit (which isn't fair to judge him on, see Trial of a Time Lord for his true personality).

I really don't think we're watching the same show. I disagree with EVERYTHING you've just written, but it's hardly worth going over again, is it? I'm tired of trying to explain what seems obvious to everyone else.

Again, Danny, if you don't like New Who, why do you keep watching it? I don't watch shows I don't like.

The Daleks that will glide on screen next year are not the ones we've watched for 30yrs.

We don't even know that any Daleks WILL be gliding on-screen next year. Though if they do, some at least will be the bronze darlings who are so utterly faithful to the old Daleks (other than being a massive improvement, obviously).

and the Silurians are not the ones that scared us all as kids.

Sadly the only Silurian story I saw as a kid was Warriors of the Deep. I wasn't scared.

And come on you have to give me the fact that Dalek changes in the past were cosmetic, a few slats here, a disc there, a new coat of paint there a larger fender there nothing like what they just did has been done before ever.

Except several times over, when special leader-Daleks were larger and redder and stupider-looking than the others.

And as said before you are right the Cybermen did change BUT not since the invasion

What does it matter WHEN most of the changes were made by? Of all the monsters, Cybermen evolved most drastically in Old Who, all the way from those bizarre-voiced, flashlighted, human-armed weirdoes of Tenth Planet to the blindingly-silver, gold-phobic losers of Silver Nemesis.

I think new who missed a trick, instead of having the new series in an earth almost exactly like ours (except with a more powerful UN) have one where they kept all their advanced tech from the UNIT years. Fend off the Daleks with the disintegrator guns, unleash your tanks made of living metal at the Cybermen, use your Z bombs on the orbiting Sontaran warship.

What would be the fun in that? Where would the morality be? And what need of the DOCTOR?

Who has always changed and would probably have evolved into something similar eventually (probs in the future) but they jumped too much.

Except that the award-winning quality, longevity and popularity of New Who proves they jumped PRECISELY the right amount.

Eccy and Tennant were docs like no other

Yes *rapturous sigh* it was as if they embodied everything that was best about each one of their predecessors to form the Ultimate Doctor. TWICE!

the originals were all pretty similar except for Hartnel's easing in period and Bakers mad bit (which isn't fair to judge him on, see Trial of a Time Lord for his true personality).

They most certainly were NOT 'pretty similar'. I STILL haven't got over the horror of going from Tom to that bland, young, puffing-and-panting, CRICKETING wimp. In fact, Old Who always made each Doctor as different from his predessor as possible, while New Who made them basically the same person (as of course they ARE, technically) and let the differences in actors provide the variety.

I really don't think we're watching the same show. I disagree with EVERYTHING you've just written, but it's hardly worth going over again, is it?

Never was a truer word spoken, but I just can't help myself...Danny, everything in this programme regenerates. Just because you can't SEE that it did so INFINITELY for the better in 2005, why are you so hell-bent on claiming that regeneration=rebooting?

why are you so hell-bent on claiming that regeneration=rebooting?

The answer to that isn't hard to see. Danny expected Who to be a certain way, has conveniently forgotten various inconsistencies in the old series, while being unprepared for any changes in the new one. Said changes now leap out at him as "wrong" and he can't get past that.

The emotional soundtrack, the CGI, the jump-cut editing and glossy texture of New Who has made so much impact he can't see the fundamentals anymore. Surprisingly, the biggest change of all has gone unremarked: single episode stories.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Danny.

Don't like is a strong word Tim call it disillusioned.

My first Silurain story was the Silurians, that did freak me out. As for Warriors I spent it yelling "shoot them in the face!"

I've complained about single episode stories several times in the past. They really should have made them all two parters. Also see my complaints about sod all eps being made per year.

The old series had huge genre shifts, a shootemup could be followed by a comedy which could be followed by drama. New eps are very similar to each other. Even the music is now stock as opposed to new ep=new music.

Eccy and Tennant delved where no doc went before. They were both the first docs to love, ten actually tried the absolute power, shunned by all others, the originals were all willing to kill when the situation demanded it, the new ones have to get all emotional about it.

The series went from a low budget sic fi that relied upon it's actors to a slick huge budget sic fi drama that very much goes for style over substance.

And yet again I disagree with every single thing you've just posted (except the singe ep comment which I must have missed earlier), and again can't be bothered to reiterate why it's wrong.

Don't like is a strong word Tim call it disillusioned

Well, once again, change the channel. You seem to want Who back the way it was in the 80's. However, that's not possible. If a television show is to stay relevent, it MUST evolve.

I'm too young to have seen Old Who when it was on originally. I like the DVDs that I've seen but I don't think Danny's apparent idea that they should have rehired 62 year old Sylvester McCoy in 2005 and just picked up where "Survival" left off, holds much water.

I remember us asking ourselves a while ago if we'd be watching Who now if it was a brand new series and not something we'd have tuned into just out of loyalty to the old.

Now I find myself asking if I'd be watching Who's return if it had come back as Old Who with the plodding plots and one-dimensional relationships. I think I'd have to say no. It would be too boring.

Or maybe I would as I wouldn't have New Who to comapare it to.

I don't think they should have rehired McCoy but I think they went too far. And without meaning for this debte to turn nasty Amanda please tell em what was wrong on the above. Daleks, Cybermen, and Silurians New whos reboots not the originals, check. Less variation in episode style check, stock music definite check.

Who in the 80s was still reasonably faithful to the 60s but this one is nothing like the 80s or indeed any of the previous set. They put in a few shout outs and homages and expand on a few idea from the original but the new series has it's own tone. And their complete destruction of the EU and what little passed for old series continuity shows their contempt for the old series.

And before you say it yes the old trampled all over continuity before IE the Daleks but Terry Nation invented the Daleks it's his call over what he does with them and most of the other changes were done by originals. RTD and Moffett are just along for the ride.

What you're failing to understand is the statements you're basing your arguments on aren't accepted fact.

Daleks, Cybermen, and Silurians New whos reboots not the originals, check. Less variation in episode style check, stock music definite check.

I think the Daleks and Cybermen are just like the old ones with some cosmetic changes. (There is an argument for the Silurians being quite different though.) Uncheck. I don't see any more variation in episode style in Old Who than New. Uncheck. I think the music is innovative and original. Uncheck.

All those "checks" aren't checks for me at all. That means whatever arguments you derive from those "facts" hold no water for me.

Who in the 80s was still reasonably faithful to the 60s but this one is nothing like the 80s or indeed any of the previous set.

I don't think the 80s where anything like the 60s, and I think this one is remarkably similar to the 80s myself.

They put in a few shout outs and homages and expand on a few idea from the original but the new series has it's own tone.

I agree the new series has its own tone, but so did the Hartnell yrs, the Pertwee yrs, definitely the Tom Baker yrs, and every other Doctor sets the tone for his tenure. Some stand out more than others, but every series is different. Just compare Hartnell to Davison; they couldn't be more different.

And their complete destruction of the EU and what little passed for old series continuity shows their contempt for the old series.

I don't see any destruction of the old series (don't know what EU means). The introduction of the Time War shook things up a bit, but what's wrong with that?

Terry Nation invented the Daleks it's his call over what he does with them

Who decides what to do with Who characters, not individual writers. RTD can take Moffat's Weeping Angels and do whatever he likes, just as Moffat's bound to redo some of RTD's stuff.

RTD and Moffett are just along for the ride.

They've taken an old show and made it accessible for the kids (and adults) of today. That's an amazing feat of writing I doubt anyone else could have done. How you can do that and just be "along for the ride" is incomprehensible.

Do you see the problem? Everything you point out as changed doesn't look changed to me, or no moreso that previous changes in the Old Series. Your "facts" are just opinions backed up by no more than your statement that it is so.

The old series had huge genre shifts, a shootemup could be followed by a comedy which could be followed by drama. New eps are very similar to each other.

The new series is, of course, far more consistent in quality (i.e. they're almost all bloody fantastic - no Androzanis-followed-by-Twin-Dilemmas) but how can you possibly SAY they're very similar?????? I don't recall Old Who giving us a story where the Doctor turned human. An Agatha Christie comedy pastiche. A story devoted to Being A Fan. A historical romance. An alternative universe with a dead Doctor. A story where the Doctor went insane. He's fighting Satan one minute and lighting the Olympic Torch the next - what more do you WANT of him?

Eccy and Tennant delved where no doc went before. They were both the first docs to love, ten actually tried the absolute power, shunned by all others, the originals were all willing to kill when the situation demanded it, the new ones have to get all emotional about it.

•••• right - and your problem with this is...?

The series went from a low budget sic fi that relied upon it's actors to a slick huge budget sic fi drama that very much goes for style over substance.

You're unfortunately equating the fact Who FINALLY has (almost) the budget it needs with 'style over substance'. Where, pray, is the lack of substance? (Except in 42 and Lazarus Experiment and Idiot's Lantern and Fear Her, admittedly the substance there was a bit thin on the ground.)

Now I find myself asking if I'd be watching Who's return if it had come back as Old Who with the plodding plots and one-dimensional relationships. I think I'd have to say no. It would be too boring.

Or maybe I would as I wouldn't have New Who to comapare it to.

Well, quite. Old Who was OBVIOUSLY the best thing in the history of the universe until New Who came along and put it to shame. (Maybe THIS is what Danny just can't cope with? My brother is always making me squirm by talking of THE GREATEST EVER DOCTOR TOM BAKER, just to highlight my gross infidelity...)

(There is an argument for the Silurians being quite different though.)

I don't see what the argument is - Old Who made it plain that there were loads of Silurian/Sea Devil/whatever colonies around with drastically different-looking creatures in 'em.

I think the music is innovative and original.

Certainly is. Admittedly not quite as, er, innovative and original as in The Sea Devils, but then that was mercifully very much a one-off, even in Old Who.

I don't think the 80s where anything like the 60s, and I think this one is remarkably similar to the 80s myself.

Hear, hear. McCoy pratfalling in tasteless technicolour had roughly nothing to do with Hartnell hobbling excruciatingly slowly through black-and-white historicals. Whereas I can imagine Rose occurring a year or two after Survival, no problem.

And their complete destruction of the EU and what little passed for old series continuity shows their contempt for the old series.

I don't see any destruction of the old series (don't know what EU means).

It's Expanded Universe - the books and audios. I'm the one who squandered literally YEARS of my life on those piles of rubbish whose only redeeming feature was their supposed canonicity. And if I'm happy to sacrifice 'em in return for two minutes of The Real Thing, I can't see why Danny's so upset.

And yes, RTG and Moffat have treated Old Who with more love and respect than frankly it DESERVED. They are True Fans.

Terry Nation invented the Daleks it's his call over what he does with them

Who decides what to do with Who characters, not individual writers.

Yeah - that is a truly bizarre attempt to try to wriggle out of previous Dalek-contradictions.

RTD and Moffett are just along for the ride.

They've taken an old show and made it accessible for the kids (and adults) of today. That's an amazing feat of writing I doubt anyone else could have done. How you can do that and just be "along for the ride" is incomprehensible.

Yes. Incomprehensible is the word. Seriously - what can you possibly MEAN, along for the ride...??

(There is an argument for the Silurians being quite different though.)

I don't see what the argument is

Maybe it's just that they can actually move. Stunning, that.

It's Expanded Universe - the books and audios.

Oh. How could any TV show have POSSIBLY kept faith with all that contratictory waffle? If they had canonized the books/audios, Who would be bloody awful. Would it make sense to canonize all those Star Trek novels when it came time to make the films and the follow-on series?

The new Daleks and Cybermen LOOK like the old ones with a few cosmetic changes but they are not the old ones. The Cybermen were made by Davros, sorry Lumic in a parallel universe are vastly technologically inferior to the old ones and act more like the borg than they cybermen. A deluded desire to 'save' everyone as opposed to wanting to conquer the universe and only converting because they needed more troops. Oh yes and they don't even have grand plans on how to do anything, except the cyberking their plans have just been invade. With a tiny and under equipped army, I know that's because the doc said they'd removed so much of their humanity they couldn't think creatively any more but that does lower their villain standing somewhat.

The Silurians are really not the same, they're both reptiles, that's it. These ones are further underground, have better tech, different goals and vastly different personalities. They don't even look remotely the same. And sorry Emily the different colonies argument doesn't fly with me. Old who had the Sea Devils from a different colony a different colour and with clothes on for a change. That was it.

As for the Daleks well up to now they've had more of a desperate survivor theme running but apart from the occasional overuse of flying I'll let off RTD, they still had their brilliant schemes in the pipeline. As for the new ones come on don;t let your loyalty to new who make you defend those things you're better than that!


You are right Amanda Hartnel is different to Davidson but the series was still finding it's feet back then, had no money etc. Think of the stories where the docs meet, different but similar. Eccy and Tennant are different but similar to each other they're just different to the others. Ok it could be argued McGann is the easing in doc for them but we all know what everyone thinks of that movie.

Moffet did redo some of RTDs stuff and we got the plastic daleks! Still think it's a good idea? I just feel that if you own something you have more right than someone who inherits it and knows it'll be passed onto the next person. original who were writing a TV series, RTD and Moffet are caretakers of a legacy and know unlike the originals it'll be passed on. And actually Terry does own the Daleks or rather did, due to some conflict with his estate they almost weren't in the new series. Bet he's spinning in his grave over the plastics.

Eccy and Tennant delved where no doc went before. They were both the first docs to love, ten actually tried the absolute power, shunned by all others, the originals were all willing to kill when the situation demanded it, the new ones have to get all emotional about it.

•••• right - and your problem with this is...?

If someone is written in a certain way for 30 years he should possibly stay that way? Just a thought.

You are right along for the ride is the wrong word but they are just the caretakers they're going to be passing it on and if you take someone else's idea you should treat it with less of a "I'll do what I like attitude". Old who is treated with love and respect until it gets in the way of a story. Davros out of his his chair and into a Dalek you say? Well he's back in his chair now. Britain as a nation gone by about 2400 and Earth in control of an empire in the year 2800 well no longer now humanity is on generational ships in that century. The fact that they introduced the time war as an explanation for them not keeping continuity shows me how serious they were about old who.
even if you accept that as RTD brought it back he can do what he likes Moffet certainly didn't, he took over after RTD did the hard work.

I give up. This is pointless. It's like having an agument on perpetual repeat.

Oh. How could any TV show have POSSIBLY kept faith with all that contratictory waffle? If they had canonized the books/audios, Who would be bloody awful.

Well, quite. Obviously all-time classics Human Nature and Blink would be the first to go, since they contradict suspiciously similar stories. And then which audio do you want New Who to casually drop into conversation first? Orbis, where the Eighth Doctor spends six hundred years happily living with jellyfish? Master, where the child-Doctor smashed a kid's head in with a rock and then did a deal with the Goddess Death so the Master would get the blame? Terror Firma, where every member of current-day Earth has been turned into a Dalek except a few vol-au-vont obsessives?

Well, at least it would have made the ending to Death of the Doctor a lot more fun. No nonsense about charities and orphans and vaccines. 'Liz Shaw - she dissolved in a pool of acid along with a tenth of the human race in 2003. Dodo - shot through the head after getting a sexually transmitted disease involving brain-eating maggots. Oh, and that Ace - murdered by her boyfriend but hey, luckily she got replaced by a rapidly-shrinking 60-foot model from another universe...'

Look me in the eye and tell me you actually WANT this Expanded Universe rubbish respected, Danny...(Though I have to admit, 'rejuvenated, accidentally got Doris killed in a boating accident, and went into another dimension to marry its warrior queen' is a SLIGHTLY more plausible explanation for the Brigadier's absence at THE DOCTOR'S FUNERAL than 'Couldn't get a plane from Peru'...)

And anyway, the BBC books didn't respect the NA ones, the Benny NAs didn't respect the BBC ones, the books and audios generally ignored each other (except when GARY RUSSELL of all people wrote Evelyn Smythe a completely different PDA ending to the one she eventually got in the CDs...)

The new Daleks and Cybermen LOOK like the old ones with a few cosmetic changes but they are not the old ones.

Well of course they're not. I didn't notice any cardboard-cut-outs-from-The-Daleks popping up in, say, Remembrance either.

The Cybermen were made by Davros, sorry Lumic in a parallel universe are vastly technologically inferior to the old ones

They are?

and act more like the borg than they cybermen.

I know nothing of any borg.

A deluded desire to 'save' everyone as opposed to wanting to conquer the universe and only converting because they needed more troops.

The old Cybermen completely changed THEIR personalities, motives, appearances, etc all the time - from desperate refugees to would-be galaxy conquerers, from emotionless to smug and gloating...

Oh yes and they don't even have grand plans on how to do anything, except the cyberking their plans have just been invade. With a tiny and under equipped army, I know that's because the doc said they'd removed so much of their humanity they couldn't think creatively any more but that does lower their villain standing somewhat.

Personally I thought the plan to insert themselves into our reality by pretending to be our dead relatives was mad genius unequalled by any of that gold-allergic bunch's misguided efforts. (Alright, it probably wasn't QUITE as mad as that Wheel in Space plot. NOTHING is that mad.) And at least the New Cybermen actually CONQUERED Earth, something I didn't notice the old lot doing.

The Silurians are really not the same, they're both reptiles, that's it. These ones are further underground, have better tech, different goals and vastly different personalities. They don't even look remotely the same.

Take a look around this planet and tell me the same doesn't apply to humans too. Anyway, for me the big disappointment of the New Silurians...Homo Reptilia...whatever...was how boringly similar they were to the old lot. The militaristic faction wanting to drown the usurping ape-primitives in their own blood, the wise old leader who was prepared to accept the Doctor's help towards compromise with the humans, etc etc, yawn, yawn.

And sorry Emily the different colonies argument doesn't fly with me. Old who had the Sea Devils from a different colony a different colour and with clothes on for a change. That was it.

You think string vests were the main difference between Silurians and Sea Devils? What about the THIRD EYE THAT CAN BUILD WALLS AND STUFF?

As for the new [Daleks] come on don;t let your loyalty to new who make you defend those things you're better than that!

Don't put words into my mouth: I've never said a word in defence of the skittle-coloured does-my-bum-look-big-in-this usurpers. They're bloody awful, though what YOU'RE complaining about I don't know. Rubbish monsters are in the finest Old Who tradition (do names like 'Giant Rat', 'Slyther' and 'Taran Beast' ring any bells?).

Anyway, the Daleks have constantly shifted in size and colour and shape throughout Old and New Who, the fact the latest ones happen to be REALLY REALLY BAD at it doesn't make them non-Daleks. (Come to think of it, it makes them even MORE Dalek-like. Let's face it, if we saw one of those bronze darlings we'd just have to stroke it like Rose did, and to hell with the number of people who'd die as a result, and if we saw one of those camouflaged ones with the adorable little British flag we'd have an Amy-like 'Love a squaddie!' reaction, but AT LAST we have Daleks to whom we react with the PROPER amount of horror and disgust and disbelief. ('Do you know what hate looks like, Amy? It looks like a Dalek.' Result!))

You are right Amanda Hartnel is different to Davidson but the series was still finding it's feet back then, had no money etc.

What ON EARTH have these irrelevant 'real-life' excuses got to do with anything?

Think of the stories where the docs meet, different but similar. Eccy and Tennant are different but similar to each other they're just different to the others. Ok it could be argued McGann is the easing in doc for them but we all know what everyone thinks of that movie.

What everyone thinks of that movie is irrelevant - especially to you, who were just castigating RTG for ignoring the bloody AUDIOS. McGann started all the snogging, RTG and Moffat are entirely blameless in this regard.

Moffet did redo some of RTDs stuff and we got the plastic daleks! Still think it's a good idea?

Er, yes. I do think it's a good idea that everything that ever appears in Doctor Who isn't immediately preserved in amber and forbidden to evolve OR REGENERATE. (Having said that, yes, Moffat screwed up the Daleks, the Silurians and even, to a lesser extent, his own Weeping Angels. The moral is He's gotta do better, NOT that He's gotta to return the Daleks to grey Daal-descendents trundling along their metal corridors via static electricity...)

I just feel that if you own something you have more right than someone who inherits it and knows it'll be passed onto the next person.

Whereas I still can't BELIEVE the BBC lawyers were so grossly incompetent as to give Terry Nation ANY RIGHTS WHATSOEVER over one of Who's greatest creations...

Bet he's spinning in his grave over the plastics.

It just goes to prove that that excuse the Nation Estate were always trotting out as they repeatedly screwed up the plans for Season 1/27 demanding extortionate sums of cash - that they were just trying to safeguard the Daleks' reputation - was a blatant lie. They let the plastics go ahead...

If someone is written in a certain way for 30 years he should possibly stay that way? Just a thought.

Not if he drastically changes body and personality every few years he shouldn't.

Besides which, Eccy n'Tennant haven't actually broken the no-sex rule (unless you count Elizabeth I, and I'm trying very hard not to) - UNLIKE HARTNELL. (The fact they were both in love, and couldn't even face TELLING the girl - even when they were about to be parted for all eternity - if anything shows that he's MORE anti-sex than ever before.) And now the Doctor's regenerated into Matt Smith who's more Old Who about such matters (he thinks pregnant-Amy has SWALLOWED A PLANET, for god's sake).

they are just the caretakers they're going to be passing it on

Er, yes. They're just caretakers. In the sense the Pope's just St Peter's caretaker or Elizabeth II is just King Alfred's caretaker.

And I'm glad you're ADMITTING RTG and the Moff are such fantastic caretakers that there'll actually be something to pass on, unlike certain other producers I could mention...

Old who is treated with love and respect until it gets in the way of a story.

What, you mean the way it was during the 26 years of Old Who? I'd disagree it's to anything like that extent. Unlike their predecessors, Executive Producers these days actually KNOW their Who (if only because said predecessors thoughtfully supplied them with the Sixteen Long and Barren Years of Despair in which to rewatch their videos. A lot.)

Davros out of his his chair and into a Dalek you say? Well he's back in his chair now.

Sorry, what?

Britain as a nation gone by about 2400 and Earth in control of an empire in the year 2800 well no longer now humanity is on generational ships in that century.

Um, I think humanity does scarper slightly before the time we estimated Earth's Empire fell in The Mutants, but it's really no big deal, and I don't know about this 2400 thing you're talking about.

The fact that they introduced the time war as an explanation for them not keeping continuity shows me how serious they were about old who.

It shows they learned from Old Who's mistakes - chiefly that the Time Lords should be kept mysterious and in the background. Not with alien invasions of Gallifrey and its traitor-ridden High Council every two minutes.

The fact that the Time War and the Cracks offer a delightful excuse for any little inconsistencies is just an added bonus.

even if you accept that as RTD brought it back he can do what he likes Moffet certainly didn't, he took over after RTD did the hard work.

RTG is the first to say that KEEPING something successful is at least as hard as making it successful in the first place.

I give up. This is pointless. It's like having an agument on perpetual repeat.

Oh. Yeah. That would be the SENSIBLE response...

I didn't mean the Silurians and Sea Devils weren't different from each other (they're not meant to be the same species are they?) or if they are it's an us neanderthal difference. I meant sea devils and Silurians have always looked the same as other sea devils and Silurians. And humans vary but we don't come with extra eyes, completely different bone structures etc.

The new cybermen have no spaceflight, time travel and didn't do very well against the Daleks, they couldn't even take one. The Exilons took out one lol. And they didn't conquer Earth they would have been on the receiving end of an arse kicking if they hadn't been sucked away.

I admit it would be hard to keep the EU cannon but they have all of time and space to play with, they don't exactly have limited settings.

And you're right Daleks did change in the past but a little, they grew a few inches, got the occasional disc and sometimes a new paint job. They never had real changes to their physical characteristics, any previous changes were solely cosmetic. In metaphorical terms The previous Daleks got tans, the new Daleks just had a boob job. There is a reason no other Dalek change backlash (if there ever was one) made it into the mainstream media. Seriously the redesign actually made the papers due to it's sheer badness. Also I agree with you 100% over the nation estate unless they didn't read the contract before letting the beeb use them. Oh and there is a grey Dalek now remember. And i have seen the cardboard cut out Daleks appear, just they're done using CGI now lol.

The movie was some American made for TV rubbish, at least the audios are made by us!

Give the other producers some credit Grade screwed them over nicely and if RTD hadn't attracted a new audience his new series would have been finished, so I guess kudos for taking that gamble. I'm sorry but he really didn't keep many of old who's viewers, this really is the only place I've seen anyone who liked the old series defend the new. The only other new series defenders I've seen EVER in real life and the net are peiople who started watching in 2005.

You said it yourself they have broken the no sex rule, if it happened it counts sadly.

All this started by me saying new who was doing too change the monsters then unfortunately we started taking over the old arguments. New monsters are fine, old monsters are fine but if you don't like the old ones, tough.

If they had three eyes then they have three eyes, if they had no humps then tough no humps, if they've had the same head since 1968 then they keep that head! If Moffet wants bright coloured daleks then break out the spray paint like an old who producer. If he wants reptiles then fine call them the ground devils or something lol. If he wants the borg then ring star trek I hear they're short of work atm and they have all the old costumes kicking around. Surely we can all agree that as 2 out of three redesigns of old monsters have fallen flat he should possibly stick to updating them as the old Daleks and Sontarans were updated. They even kept their spaceship designs the same yet better, no Dalek saucers on a string any more lol.

I'm sorry but he really didn't keep many of old who's viewers, this really is the only place I've seen anyone who liked the old series defend the new. The only other new series defenders I've seen EVER in real life and the net are peiople who started watching in 2005.
What a remarkably stupid statement to make Daniel. Nearly everyone I know who was a fan of the old series is a fan of the new series (and yes, I've been to forums too).
Like Jep, you refuse to accept the rather strong arguments that everyone else here has made. You dance around the issues and never really answer our arguments. Your comments are flimsy are best, but I'm sure you're loving all the attention- just like Jep...

I think you're right, Rodney. He's just doing it to get a rise out of us. No one could be this blind.

Rodney:Like Jep, you refuse to accept the rather strong arguments that everyone else here has made. You dance around the issues and never really answer our arguments. Your comments are flimsy are best, but I'm sure you're loving all the attention- just like Jep...

Excuse me-first off I find it rude for you to kick me even when I've NOT said anything!!!!!

Second:The main reason I haven't answered your "strong arguments" is that most of the time I'm so swamped by trying to deal with long pages(each with multiple arguments) from four of you at once--I doubt even Emily could keep up.

Also-although you keep talking about them-most of what I've seen stated here is pretty thin, I mean how much faith would you put in:But take a long, lingering look (as the Ainley Master would say (you know...the one WHOSE VOICE WE HEARD IN UTOPIA!!!)) at the Journal of Impossible things and THEN tell me they're not all the same Doctor.

And that's one of the better ones(it at least gives some clue on what it's about--Although I'm not sure I know about "The Journal Of Impossible Things", is it from season five???

Add to that that often all that is said is that there are too many example to mention--fine,take the first four seasons and mention a few!!

Oddly, I am the only one who seems to have listened--and I have offered another theory(about the first four seasons being a reboot, and the specials and fifth season doing a retcon of the reboot(which would cover Old Who suddenly showing up after four years on almost no mention).

I've tried looking at New Who with an open mind-I challenge you to do the same.

By the way-as I've said before: I can get overwealmed trying to deal with four to on odds-one at a time,or keep it short--please.

Dude, give it up, no one here is buying what you're selling. New Who is NOT a reboot, never was. RTD himself said, when promoting the show back in 2005, that Who was "continuing on, not starting again." Coming from the man himself, I take that at face value.

New Who takes place in the same universe as Classic Who. Just as Next Generation takes place in the same universe as Classic Trek, just as Frasier takes place in the same universe as Cheers, just as Joey takes place in the same universe as Friends, etc.

I didn't mean the Silurians and Sea Devils weren't different from each other (they're not meant to be the same species are they?) or if they are it's an us neanderthal difference.

I think they're supposed to be close-ish cousins. Like Homo Reptilia are.

I meant sea devils and Silurians have always looked the same as other sea devils and Silurians.

The Warriors of the Deep Sea Devils look TOTALLY different from The Sea Devils ones! They don't have string vests!!!

And the Silurians may look more-or-less the same, but the oh-so-similar third eye is utterly, totally different - 'their third eyes now flash in a Dalek-like fashion whenever they're speaking, and they show no sign of being able to use these eyes to cripple people or melt rock' (About Time 5, since I couldn't be bothered to notice such changes myself, I just knew there WERE some).

And humans vary but we don't come with extra eyes, completely different bone structures etc.

Yeah, well, at least we come in an interesting variety of colours and aren't bloody GREEN all the time.

The new cybermen have no spaceflight, time travel and didn't do very well against the Daleks, they couldn't even take one. The Exilons took out one lol.

The new Cybermen didn't NEED spaceflight when they could just stroll through the (according to the Doctor, impermeable) walls through dimensions. The Exxilons cheated, what with the poor Daleks being helpless and disarmed.

And yeah, OK, so they didn't do too well in Doomsday, but that just means the New Who Daleks are (er...WERE) infinitely superior to the old ones, not that the new Cybermen are rubbish. (They got ALL the Daleks' Doctor-records off 'em in the Void, didn't they?)

And they didn't conquer Earth they would have been on the receiving end of an arse kicking if they hadn't been sucked away.

The hell they would. THE DOCTOR said 'This isn't an invasion - it's a conquest' and given that he has a certain amount of experience in such matters I'm taking his word for it.

I admit it would be hard to keep the EU cannon but they have all of time and space to play with, they don't exactly have limited settings.

In theory they have all of time and space to play with. In practise they have modern-day Earth, so reconciling New Who with Eternity Weeps and Terror Firma alone would have been impossible (not to mention pointless, sado-masochistic, exceedingly stupid, and potentially Who-destroying).

In metaphorical terms The previous Daleks got tans, the new Daleks just had a boob job. There is a reason no other Dalek change backlash (if there ever was one) made it into the mainstream media. Seriously the redesign actually made the papers due to it's sheer badness.

Stop trying to make this argument over whether or not the new Daleks are rubbish - EVERYONE IN THE UNIVERSE is in agreement about this. And to use your analogy, the Daleks may not have changed that much, but the Cybermen AND the Doctor certainly, er, got boob jobs frequently during the old series.

The movie was some American made for TV rubbish, at least the audios are made by us!

What on Earth has that got to do with anything? Was Season 1/27 not made with Canadian money?

Anyway, I'd take the telemovie over those audios any day.

You said it yourself they have broken the no sex rule, if it happened it counts sadly.

But DID it happen? If the Doctor refused to have sex with the woman he loved, would he REALLY have gone off the rails with an elderly dictator who once memorably stated 'I take a bath every three months - whether I need it or not'?? Or was that all a pathetic attempt to make an Ood laugh?

New monsters are fine, old monsters are fine but if you don't like the old ones, tough.

Hey! I love the old monsters. Mostly.

If they had three eyes then they have three eyes, if they had no humps then tough no humps, if they've had the same head since 1968 then they keep that head!

If that doesn't apply to the Doctor (who has had rather a lot of heads since 1968) I completely fail to see why it should apply to the Monsters.

Surely we can all agree that as 2 out of three redesigns of old monsters have fallen flat he should possibly stick to updating them as the old Daleks and Sontarans were updated.

Actually no - since I don't like the updated Sontarans. And it's only a two-thirds failure rate in Season 5/31. The first four years were drastically more successful at redesigning old monsters (aside from the aforementioned Sontarans).

They even kept their spaceship designs the same yet better, no Dalek saucers on a string any more lol.

And THERE you have the perfect summary of New Who. Utterly true to the spirit of Old Who...minus the strings.

Nearly everyone I know who was a fan of the old series is a fan of the new series (and yes, I've been to forums too).

Hell, yes. All my Old Who Tavern-friends have embraced the new happiness (well, OK, aside from Lawrence who gave up after the first four-and-a-half years). And all my Not We friends who I had to FORCE to watch the occasional video are now True Fans - all thanks to the new series.

first off I find it rude for you to kick me even when I've NOT said anything!!!!!

Unfortunately we have long memories.

I'm so swamped by trying to deal with long pages(each with multiple arguments) from four of you at once--I doubt even Emily could keep up.

Wanna bet...?

most of what I've seen stated here is pretty thin, I mean how much faith would you put in:But take a long, lingering look (as the Ainley Master would say (you know...the one WHOSE VOICE WE HEARD IN UTOPIA!!!)) at the Journal of Impossible things and THEN tell me they're not all the same Doctor.

And that's one of the better ones(it at least gives some clue on what it's about--Although I'm not sure I know about "The Journal Of Impossible Things", is it from season five???

Nope. It's from Human Nature in Season 3/29. Pictures of Doctors Numbers One to Eight. Pictures you and Danny seem curiously reluctant to take a look at for some reason...And what, pray, is so flimsy about the the fact we heard Delgado dialogue from The Daemons and Ainley laughter when Jacobi opened his watch...?

Add to that that often all that is said is that there are too many example to mention--fine,take the first four seasons and mention a few!!

OK, for starters let's take the aforemtioned:

Drawings of previous Doctors' faces.

Sounds of previous Masters' voices.

Davros's metal hand.

Appearance of Sarah Jane Smith and K9.

Just for starters, eh?

and I have offered another theory(about the first four seasons being a reboot, and the specials and fifth season doing a retcon of the reboot(which would cover Old Who suddenly showing up after four years on almost no mention).

Ah yes, we ought to have addressed your theory, it's just difficult to do so without sounding very rude indeed. Full marks for TRYING, but if you'd actually SEEN any of the Specials or Season 5/31 of blessed memory, you'd know perfectly well your theory is pathological insanity. They continue straight on from Seasons 1/27-4/30 of even-more-blessed memory - no (ha ha ha!) retconning of reboots. They just happen to contain a few more pictures of previous Doctors than hitherto, but as there's tons of Old Who stuff in the previous four seasons, this in no way represents a discontinuity.

I've tried looking at New Who with an open mind-I challenge you to do the same.

I waited sixteen ******* years for it. And it was bliss beyond my wildest dreams. I'm not sure whether that consistutes an 'open mind' or not, or what you expect me to do about it if it doesn't...

Dude, give it up, no one here is buying what you're selling.

Yup. THIS.

Thank you Emily-at last you've given something solid to work with-now if you can narrow it down further so I can look it up, we may have something!!!

On the other hand(oops)-I'm not sure Davros having a metal hand counts(wasn't he using his own cells to build new daleks??).

As for Sarah Jane and K9:considering how different they are from what I remember(my Sarah Jane wouldn't have spent 30 years pining after the Doctor--she would have called her friends at UNIT,and had them keep her updated on when the Doctor showed up(Emily-you know that if you had the connections,you'd do the same thing)).

I think of them as alternate versions(and before you just dismiss the idea-remember Inferno.

On the other hand-now is a good time for me to close-before I say something I might regret later.

Rodney I never said noone anywhere is a fan of the new that liked the old just that Ia have yet to see one anywhere else. I do know they must obviously exist but I was trying to make a point about how I've yet to meet them. You don't know which sites I've been to and I am including real life and facebook in this too.

And I think I've tried to respond to most points head on just that as Jep said the posts are very long. I am a slow typist and I do have a life off this site, a small one maybe but it exists. Give me some credit Rodney I have better things to do than wind up people on the net. And as I don't think I've insulted anyone on this site ever just nocked the show I feel that's a tad out of line.

As for the Sea Devils I'm not sure a change of clothes counts as wildly different but they were a different colour. And I choose to believe that the Silurians in Warriors simply chose not to sue their mental powers, the researcher surely couldn't screw up that badly? That ep is really best forgotten, what could have been so much was so little. And the Sea Devils and Silurians aren't all green, some were brown lol.

Still three species of reptile on the planet? How many species does one planet need? BTW the doc got it wrong it shouldn't be homo Reptilia it should be Reptilia Sapiens or something similar. Maybe that was this seasons gay reference? I know bad joke I'm immature.

I maintain the Cybermen could have been defeated just a car could take out a fair few of them. Take the small battle we saw the cybermen killed about 3 or 4 soldiers and the humans blew up 1 cyberman. Even that kill ratio isn't enough for them to win. And as the cybermen march in such tight groups big explosions would take hundreds at a time. And that's before aircraft and tanks and ships come into play. Just think what happened to the Cybermen that beamed into America or the middle east, or Glasgow? lol. And if they got the docs records off the Daleks in the void then the cybermen cheated too lol.

When I said "if you don't like the old ones tough" I was mainly speaking to moffett and his designs I know you love them. One thing about the Sontran redesign I'm sure they weren't that short originally, they were a bit stocky but not like they are now.

Ok maybe my defence of the EU is asking too much but if they at least tried to keep telly continuity it would be nice, eg there was no reason to move the flares to the year 2800. Especially as the doc asks the reptiles to wake up in the middle of them. If the humans and reptiles had made peace in the present it wouldn't put the gay Silurian band thing off by too many years and would have made for an interesting take on near future Earth. Come on Star Trek was famous for it's tolerance stories how about Who has a go.

The doc can regenerate monsters can't or in the case of the Daleks deffo shouldn't! And you're right old redesigns worked better because they were tweaks, eg the Sontarans look alive now, the Daleks looked much more solid and more metal and were a conceivable battle tank BUT Moffet went just that little bit further in his resigns. With the Silurians it was radically different facial and body structure, the Daleks well we know what happened there.

Good on you guys for meeting converted fans but as I said outside of you guys there noone else in my entire awareness in real life or the net. The only other old fan I know of who watches the new is my Dad. And lets just say he agrees with me.

"And THERE you have the perfect summary of New Who. Utterly true to the spirit of Old Who...minus the strings."

Visually yes i will agree with you (minus the Daleks, and Silurians, and futuristic clothes and guns) as for the stories well lets not go over all that again.

Trying to bring this back to the original long forgotten point I feel the new is carving to much of a place with it's resigns than it should. They should stick to updating rather than resigning. For starters just think how many upset children there are because fans wouldn't buy their kids the iDaleks for Christmas!

Rodney I never said noone anywhere is a fan of the new that liked the old just that Ia have yet to see one anywhere else. I do know they must obviously exist but I was trying to make a point about how I've yet to meet them. You don't know which sites I've been to and I am including real life and facebook in this too.
The point you were making was that it "proved" that new who was so different from the old. Don't just take my word for it, take a look at Emily's post- I'm willing to bet Amanda and some of the others here would say the same as me- I, too, know actual people in both real life AND on facebook (including my girlfriend) who grew up on the old series and worship the new series. part of the reason this series has survived is that it has adapted and changed. If it didn't, we'd be in black and white with wobbly sets and dancers in ant costume- not to mention cardboard Daleks and cloth-headed cybermen.

And I think I've tried to respond to most points head on just that as Jep said the posts are very long. I am a slow typist and I do have a life off this site, a small one maybe but it exists. Give me some credit Rodney I have better things to do than wind up people on the net. And as I don't think I've insulted anyone on this site ever just nocked the show I feel that's a tad out of line.

Oh boo-hoo. Don't make ridiculous statements and expect everyone to nicely list one point, wait for your response, then write up the next one. i have a life too. I've learnt to answer several posts at once. Really not that hard.

Give the old series some credit we only saw the cardboard Daleks twice and they haven't reappeared since Power. And I actually quite like the cloth Cybermen. They look ridiculous in the still photos but in the ep itself they're a credible villain, and that cloth is freaky, much more so than the robot like cybermen we've seen since.

And forgive me for not being perfect Rodney I am only human I overlook points, get tired after writing long posts etc. I've answered almost all points that's not exactly bad its it! Especially when the italics are on the blink.

The fundamental problem here is that you two (Danny and JEP) have brought your Who-hating attitude to a forum that likes the new show and have repeatedly harped on it in a way that isn't nitpicking, it's just dislike.

Despite pages and pages of posts trying to explain why New Who deserves its spot in the ratings, neither of you are listening. You just keep posting the same tired arguments that aren't any more backed up than the first time we heard them.

It's all opinion anyway, but why would you bring that attitude here? It would be like me going to a football forum and saying how pointless the game is. That contributes nothing to the discussion.

Phil: This whole nitpicking thing is about having some fun with our favorite television shows.

Can either of you honestly say New Who is one of your favorite shows? I think not, in which case you aren't nitpickers.

I just spent the better part of an hour working on a reply to Amanda's post-and then noted this line and tossed my reply out:

Amanda:Can either of you honestly say New Who is one of your favorite shows? I think not, in which case you aren't nitpickers.

What on earth gives you the right to say that!!!

If you ever left your home turf(this Dr. Who board) and explored the site-you would see many people talking about many things-and many of these people do not like what they're talking about.

If you look at the logo for the Guild you will see it clearly says "And everybody gets a right to their own opinion!".

As I've said before-this site belongs th Phil-he sets the rules-not you, not Emily-Phil.

Emily is a caretaker-she's here to enforce Phils rules-she only has as much power as Phil lets her have.

These are the realities here.

If you can't live with that Amanda--I'd suggest you set up your own webpage that only lets your "right-thinking" New Who fans on it-if you do I wish you well.

Or you can grow up-and realise that nothing is perfect to everyone-and that everyone has the right to their own opinions-and learn to live with it.

Thank you Emily-at last you've given something solid to work with-now if you can narrow it down further so I can look it up, we may have something!!!

Previous Doctors' faces - as drawn by 'John Smith' in his 'Journal of Impossible Things' - see Human Nature and Family of Blood. (More examples of previous Doctors' faces can be seen in The Next Doctor, The Eleventh Hour, The Vampires of Venice, Vincent and the Doctor and The Lodger so I'm starting to get VERY suspicious of your refusal to watch such things...)

Previous Masters' voices - as heard when Professor Yana opened his watch - see Utopia. (Further proof that this is the same Master comes in Last of the Time Lords when the Master gets shot and the Doctor's trying to keep him alive by wittering on about Axons (Claws of Axos) and Daleks (Frontier in Space), of all things.)

On the other hand(oops)-I'm not sure Davros having a metal hand counts(wasn't he using his own cells to build new daleks??).

I wasn't the only Nitcentraller to feel that the metal hand was the only bit of New Davros not a stunning success and that I missed his deformed claw-like hand. And I wasn't the only Nitcentraller to feel like an idiot after RTG mentioned in the Confidential that Davros got his hand shot off in Revelation. Clear proof that He puts continuity above aesthetics. (I suppose, despite the hand, AND the Doctor's 'After all we've seen, after all we've been through' you're gonna claim this is a completely different Davros from the Old Who one...?)

As for Sarah Jane and K9:considering how different they are from what I remember(my Sarah Jane wouldn't have spent 30 years pining after the Doctor--she would have called her friends at UNIT,and had them keep her updated on when the Doctor showed up

But given that the Brig forgot the Doctor's existence between 1977 and 1983, Sarah was obviously NOT in touch with him (Mawdryn Undead).

And how could Sarah NOT spend 30 years pining for her Doctor after he betrayed and abandoned her? Isn't that what we've ALL done (or is that just me)? The Doctor specifically said he'd regenerated half a dozen times since he saw her. Davros recognises her voice. She's EXACTLY the same person who the Doctor attempted (and failed) to dump back in Croydon. And later sent a K9 to. Were you to watch the SJA you'd see her visiting the Brigadier (only when she wants something), reminiscing about Harry Sullivan, etc etc.

And what's so different about K9?

I think of them as alternate versions(and before you just dismiss the idea-remember Inferno.

So...er...how did this alternate version pop up, then? And does it think it's the real Sarah cos it certainly gives that impression in its four years of SJA AND its numerous appearances in New Who.

And I choose to believe that the Silurians in Warriors simply chose not to sue their mental powers

They're launching all-out war against the human race! Why the HELL would they tie both hands behind their backs?

the researcher surely couldn't screw up that badly?

Maybe you're being over-optimistic about the existence of a researcher...

That ep is really best forgotten, what could have been so much was so little.

No ep can be forgotten! Even (especially) if it damages your arguments! And even if it thoroughly deserves to be forgotten!

And the Sea Devils and Silurians aren't all green, some were brown lol.

Seriously? I didn't notice. Mind you, I am slightly grey/blue/green colourblind, maybe I'm green/brown colourblind too and just never realised...which are the brown ones?

Still three species of reptile on the planet? How many species does one planet need?

This planet has billions of different species (or maybe millions. Oh, how should I know? A LOT). Maybe the reptiles were just NICER than us (at least before the monkeys usurped their planet) and didn't accidentally wipe out all their rival-relatives, as I suspect we did with the poor Neanderthals.

Or maybe they were advanced enough to do some serious genetic tinkering, to develop branches of the family with all-powerful red eyes or poisonous tongues or whatever.

I maintain the Cybermen could have been defeated just a car could take out a fair few of them.

Don't forget they were holding all those ickle kiddies as hostages. Mind you, they kind of blew THAT one when they made it clear they were gonna convert all of said hostages...

Plus give 'em a few hours and they've set up some extremely efficient conversion factories...

One thing about the Sontran redesign I'm sure they weren't that short originally, they were a bit stocky but not like they are now.

I don't mind that - it made a pleasant change for every alien monster not to be exactly the same height as the average human male...

if they at least tried to keep telly continuity it would be nice, eg there was no reason to move the flares to the year 2800.

Could easily have been the END of the twenty-ninth century rather than (as you're assuming) the beginning. Which wouldn't clash seriously with established history...HOW old did the voting booth say Amy was, again?

Especially as the doc asks the reptiles to wake up in the middle of them.

The reptiles probably LIKE heat. The Doc's probably giving 'em a chance to get themselves re-established before humanity gets back.

If the humans and reptiles had made peace in the present it wouldn't put the gay Silurian band thing off by too many years and would have made for an interesting take on near future Earth.

You know what? If we have to sacrifice a gay Silurian band to get the new series...I'll sacrifice a gay Silurian band. Joyously.

Come on Star Trek was famous for it's tolerance stories how about Who has a go.

Why the hell would Who want to emulate that Trekkie nonsense? Who is all about evil aliens invading Earth and getting foiled by the Doctor. Tolerance just wouldn't be so much FUN. Just look at what happens every time the Doc or Sarah trust an alien - Unquiet Dead, The Gift, etc...

The doc can regenerate monsters can't or in the case of the Daleks deffo shouldn't!

Given that we see some of these species over a period of THOUSANDS of years, something would be drastically wrong if they DIDN'T change...

For starters just think how many upset children there are because fans wouldn't buy their kids the iDaleks for Christmas!

I wouldn't worry about that TOO much. Who Fans are unlikely to HAVE any children.

Emily is a caretaker-she's here to enforce Phils rules-she only has as much power as Phil lets her have.

And for your information, Phil has kindly bestowed absolute power on me and has never for one moment interfered with how I choose to run this site.

If you can't live with that Amanda--I'd suggest you set up your own webpage that only lets your "right-thinking" New Who fans on it-if you do I wish you well.

Or you can grow up-and realise that nothing is perfect to everyone-and that everyone has the right to their own opinions-and learn to live with it.

If your opinion really is that Mandy should grow up and get off this board then no, you're not entitled to air it. Nitcentral isn't a democracy, or at least, if it is it's the Beast Below type. Mandy is a long-standing and valued member of this community. You aren't - yet. Please don't force me to deposit you in the Whale's stomach.

What on earth gives you the right to say that!!!

Are you serious? Are you now claiming that New Who is one of your favorite shows?

I maintain my previous assessment: you're a critic, not a nitpicker. In fairness, you have every right to be a critic, but to expect actual fans to appreciate your inputs is unrealistic.

If you ever left your home turf(this Dr. Who board) and explored the site-you would see many people talking about many things-and many of these people do not like what they're talking about.

If they want to vilify a given show, that's their unfortunate business. I came to Nitcentral because I read Phil's books and found a kindred spirit. Phil loves Star Trek and his nits were all the funnier for it.

Take a movie like Independence Day. It was ludicrous and I nitpicked it the whole time I was watching it, but it was also great fun and I enjoyed it tremendously. I had no interest in destroying the experience with genuine disapproval.

Emily:And for your information, Phil has kindly bestowed absolute power on me and has never for one moment interfered with how I choose to run this site.

All I can say is: PROVE IT!!!!!

Emily:If your opinion really is that Mandy should grow up and get off this board then no, you're not entitled to air it. Nitcentral isn't a democracy, or at least, if it is it's the Beast Below type. Mandy is a long-standing and valued member of this community. You aren't - yet. Please don't force me to deposit you in the Whale's stomach.

I never said that--I suggested an either or choise-either grow up and stop making statements like:Can either of you honestly say New Who is one of your favorite shows? I think not, in which case you aren't nitpickers(or in other words stop driving off anyone who disagrees with her), or to set up her own page(and do what she likes).

http://www.scifiscience.co.uk/img/drwho/seadevil.jpg

here's a brown Sea Devil. Both the Silurians and sea Devils were brown in their original stories, the writer even forgot their colours lol. As for why they didn't sue their mental powers they were fighting the most incompetent soldiers I've ever seen. I think i really meant how many intelligent species does one planet need, if you include the neanderthals it's had 5 so far! And I'm not sure how nice the Silurians were from what I've seen on screen and in the EU they seem to be in charge of the sea devils. I don't think warriors knocks my argument, and if it does an epic fail of a story is possibly not the best evidence to use against me lol.

I think you expect too much of the cybermen their conversion factories would have been bombed by a lot of irate pilots who just had their families converted and there really aren't enough Cybermen hold many people hostage. If they group enough to take one countries military they face annihilation by another's. RTD should really have had them do what all aliens do, just invade Britain lol.

The Beast Below is set 400 or so years after the flares started. And the flares originally occured in the year 10,000ish (the Ark in space). The booth said Amy was 1306 years old the exact date of the story is 3295. Having the flares in the 2800s and lasting hundreds of years contradicts Revenge of the Cybermen, Terror of the Vervoids and The Mutants. As for individual nations still existing that's a few dozen more. Frontier and Colony to name two. And you're right the reptiles do like it hot but I don't think they like it that hot, plus it undermines the live in peace message rather if the reptiles emerge onto a deserted world. The returning humans might not be too pleased about it. I guess maybe the flares were a short thing and the UK has been in space for hundreds of years more than it should have been. One wonders if the other nations did a Golgafrincham B ark ploy to trick us off the planet.

Can you not nitpick a show you merely like Amanda? Still this discussion is getting heated so peace guys?

My original point that accidentally started all this was Who should avoid iDalek and Silurian style redesigns, pretty much the whole country agrees on that one surely we can too?

And I'm not sure how nice the Silurians were from what I've seen on screen and in the EU they seem to be in charge of the sea devils.

"Warriors" gave me that impression as well, although they were very tactful about it, praising the Sea Devil leader and treating him more like their general than a servant.

I think you expect too much of the cybermen their conversion factories would have been bombed by a lot of irate pilots who just had their families converted and there really aren't enough Cybermen hold many people hostage.

Yes, I think the Cybus Cybermen are a lesser species than their Mondas cousins (even if they do look way cooler), but then it's early in their development and they may upgrade themselves into a more competent fighting force. When we saw the Mondasians, they'd been around for a long time and were suitably monstrous to a 60s audience. The Cybus ones are more robotic.

Can you not nitpick a show you merely like Amanda?

Sure, but I was under the impression you didn't like much of New Who at all, that you'd prefer it all to go away in favor of something modeled more closely on the original.

Still this discussion is getting heated so peace guys?

Absolutely right. Let's not say things we're going to regret later.

Oops, forgot a line.

My original point that accidentally started all this was Who should avoid iDalek and Silurian style redesigns, pretty much the whole country agrees on that one surely we can too?

I'd still have to disagree with that one. We have to have redesigns as tastes change. Can you imagine the cloth Cybermen now? It would be laughable. They could have stayed closer to the Silurian originals (keeping the third eye would have been cool), but I don't begrudge them a change that makes it easier for the actors to portray a living being instead of someone in a mask.

As for the iDaleks, much as I hate them, I really don't think they're as fundamentally different as they seem at first blush. It's the colors, I tell you!

Amanda.Daniel:

I don't know what to say here-every time I've tried to back down,or smooth things out,someome(often not part of the discusion)-steps in to stuff the attempt back down my windpipe(Rodney kindly stepped in last time).

As I'm not allowed to either give ground or compromise--all I can do is play the cards that I have--I don't see any other way for this to go.

The EU are the novels right? Well, since they are no longer canon, and haven't been since the series went back into production, all information from them is therefore irrelvent.

Phil has kindly bestowed absolute power on me and has never for one moment interfered with how I choose to run this site.

All I can say is: PROVE IT!!!!!

You're seriously demanding that I suspend you from this site?

Your attempts to avoid addressing the various proofs-it's-all-the-same-bloody-programme are looking increasingly desperate...

here's a brown Sea Devil.

Ooh. Gosh. Isn't it just.

As for why they didn't sue their mental powers they were fighting the most incompetent soldiers I've ever seen.

True, but they weren't to KNOW that the soldiers would only fire at their armour rather than their exposed faces BEFORE they took 'em on. And they really pulled out all the stops - well, the Myrka anyway...

I think i really meant how many intelligent species does one planet need, if you include the neanderthals it's had 5 so far!

Earth is a very, VERY special planet.

We just don't know WHY, yet...

an epic fail of a story is possibly not the best evidence to use against me lol.

I honestly don't see what the quality of a story has to do with the evidence it provides.

I think you expect too much of the cybermen their conversion factories would have been bombed by a lot of irate pilots who just had their families converted and there really aren't enough Cybermen hold many people hostage. If they group enough to take one countries military they face annihilation by another's.

You have a point. I have this awful habit of believing whatever the Doctor says, though after he grossly overestimated the effect on Earth of a crashing Titanic I really should take his more dramatic statements with a pinch of salt.

The Beast Below is set 400 or so years after the flares started.

Where does it say that? I thought it was 200 or 300?

And the flares originally occured in the year 10,000ish (the Ark in space).

So obviously those must have been a DIFFERENT set of flares. (So Earth's an unlucky as well as a special planet. We knew that already.) Makes sense, given the drastic difference between the Ark and Starship UK.

As for individual nations still existing that's a few dozen more. Frontier and Colony to name two.

Actually it makes perfect sense that Earth should try a planet-wide Government and then decide it's a bad idea and go back to nation-states. (The odds on a European single currency surviving, for example, are apparently 20% at the moment.)

And you're right the reptiles do like it hot but I don't think they like it that hot, plus it undermines the live in peace message rather if the reptiles emerge onto a deserted world.

So the Doc's drastic last-minute plan had a few flaws. Not that it's surprising his dating's a bit off, what with the Time War and all...

The returning humans might not be too pleased about it.

But probably a lot more ready to talk than if there were billions of humans all over the planet when the Silurians emerged...

I guess maybe the flares were a short thing and the UK has been in space for hundreds of years more than it should have been.

Given the general competence displayed by Starship UK...all too likely.

The EU are the novels right? Well, since they are no longer canon, and haven't been since the series went back into production, all information from them is therefore irrelvent.

I don't see them as entirely irrelevant - the bits that haven't been trampled on by the new series might still have happened - and even the bits that WERE trampled might have happened once, before the timelines got rewritten or in an alternative universe or something...I'd still use 'em cautiously as supporting evidence when relevant.

All I can say is: PROVE IT!!!!

I think he was more looking for some form of communication from Phil rather than an actual demonstration of your god-like powers.

The odds on a European single currency surviving, for example, are apparently 20% at the moment.

You guys are looking pretty smart to have opted out of the euro these days.

I'd still use 'em cautiously as supporting evidence when relevant.

Technically it depends on whether "the creators" (presumably RTD and Moffat) consider them canon. One of Phil's rules for nitpicking.

I looked up the date for the Beast on the tardis wiki. I'm pretty sure the doc or someone says in the ep that the flares started in the 29th century and from Amy's age it can be worked out how long it's been since they started.

I would agree with the different sets of flares but that simply doesn't fit with other eps. Earth is supposed to be inhabited in this era and controls an empire. If the doc has said the flares were a quick decade long thing thing maybe that would fit but they don't.

As for the world government being a bad idea don't forget the doc mentioning WW6 taking place in the year 5000(a pretty bloody war complete with genocide by the sounds of it too). A bit like the EU rubbish economy but Europe's gone 60 yrs without a war, that's gotta be a record for us. If it was the olden days it would be time for another war with France about now. Considering that we know Earths government will collapse in the future and there is a mass exodus of the solar system in the year 5000 they should have set this story then. It would fit with the flares, individual nations existing again, and there were mentions of plans other than the ark in that ep. Still time war eh, •••• you for that cast iron excuse RTD. Sadly Moffet just ruined one of the last bits of old who continuity left, the current millennium was just about the old bit that didn't contradict each other until now.

I think the humans returning to Earth to find the reptiles on it would just be a reverse of the problem the reptiles faced now. Except the humans are now much more advanced than the reptiles and probably up for an orbital bombardment. They haven't spent centuries cruising in space waiting to go home to hand it over to the reptiles. I bet the Starship USA has a few death rays on it lol. Maybe the humans returned at about the same time the reptiles woke up, decided to start afresh, and without all the stupid British woman to ruin it they lived in peace.

I think the creators sort of view the EU as cannon. Davros's emperor Dalek case in Remembrance is right out of the comic series, and I've read that RTD and Moffet put in a few shoutouts.

I think the differences between the Cybus and Mondonsian cybermen reflect their origins. The Mononeisans gradually evolved into the Cybermen, replacing more and more of themselves and are true cyborgs. The Cybus ones were created solely for the purpose of replacing the body and are more like robots driven by a brain than true cyborgs.

Ok the cloth one might look a bit rubbish now but make the face covering out of something more futuristic looking and you never know. And ironically the early cybermen were much more complex than the later ones. They are genuinely scary far more so than the later ones and would fit the Moff's style nicely. The later ones were just; put on the flight suit, put head and chest peice on, right I'm a cyberman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYFy5-bFhxE

This is from an impressions show and this isn't the first time they quickly knocked up a cybermen.

As for the Silurians maybe it's a true actor who can portray something without facial expressions, besides why should they have facial expressions?

And please tell me you didn't defend the iDaleks, I'll be introducing you to Hartnel lol. The colours I could handle it's the shape. I saw one in an advert the beeb had on over xmas, it was side on and in bright light gah. Also I complain that their voices sound like the emperor Dalek suddenly, I want the old voices back!

but Europe's gone 60 yrs without a war

Forgot about that Balkan thing?

Sadly Moffet just ruined one of the last bits of old who continuity left

See, there you go again. Some of us here see continuity out the wazoo; we don't need the Time War to explain things away. I doubt much of Old Who had a coherent timeline either, although I lack Emily's encyclopedic knowledge to defend that view.

The Cybus ones were created solely for the purpose of replacing the body and are more like robots driven by a brain than true cyborgs.

Technically that would be the definition of a cyborg (human brain, artificial body), but I think I know what you mean.

why should they have facial expressions?

Uh, seriously? Replace them with cardboard cutouts then; they'd be about as interesting. I know, the Daleks and Cybermen don't have facial expressions either and it works for them, but they're in artificial cases, not living flesh.

And please tell me you didn't defend the iDaleks

I'm trying to be objective in the face of prejudice. It's hard, but someone has to step back and put them in perspective. Besides, I doubt they're going away; may as well get used to them.

Also I complain that their voices sound like the emperor Dalek suddenly

Yes, I'm not sure what I think about that. One the one hand, they seem more imposing (or maybe that's just because they're now bigger), but on the other it's odd-sounding, like they're trying too hard. Or maybe it's just the important Daleks that sounds like that (the white ones?). The red ones may sound all right, but we haven't heard them yet.

Emily:Phil has kindly bestowed absolute power on me and has never for one moment interfered with how I choose to run this site.

All I can say is: PROVE IT!!!!!

You're seriously demanding that I suspend you from this site?

Amanda:I think he was more looking for some form of communication from Phil rather than an actual demonstration of your god-like powers.

Amanda got it in one.

The simple fact is-PHIL OWNS THE SITE. PHILS RULES HAVE FINAL SAY ON ALL MATTERS!!!!

On the other hand-Phil is a busy man, The Nitpickers Guild is a hobby for him. Odds are he hasn't looked in since Emily took over(wasn't there a note on the first Who page saying that he really never watched the show at one point??).

This is why he has Moderators--these are people he is trusting to oversee the smooth operations of the boards.

The fact is-the power is still his. If he does not like what someone is doing--he can throw anyone off he wants off this board( be it me< Amanda, Emily-whoever) if they go too far in breaking the rules.

What Emily didn't repost was this:If you look at the logo for the Guild you will see it clearly says "And everybody gets a right to their own opinion!".

Add to this that this is a Discussion Board gives me the right to say what I feel so long as I don't break other rules(this is a civil site).

Have I gotten carried away myself at times:maybe.

On the other hand, since the moderator is the one who most often breaks the rules-all I can say is:stuff happens.

By the way Amanda-I haven't bashed New Who in months(and even before(see Left Turn around August 9 of last year)--I started out nicely-and rapidly got pushed into a corner-and I do not back down well). Look for yourself.

Under the topic of "is New Who a reboot?"--where have I said a single word against New Who???

Amanda got it in one.

I'm sorry to disappoint you John but Phil doesn't hand out certificates. I'm a mod on several other boards around here. Any discussion about mods is in the moderator area which only mods have access to. If you're really determined for proof then I suggest you email him.

Odds are he hasn't looked in since Emily took over(wasn't there a note on the first Who page saying that he really never watched the show at one point??).

Odds are he has NEVER visited this area of the site. He appointed Mike when the board was set up and when Mike stepped down, Emily took over. It's as simple as that.

And I would really like to know what "rules" you think Emily has broken. Do you even know what the "rules" are? I'm pretty certain "being an obsessed fan of a show" is not one, neither is "defending your favourite show". If she had called into question your religion, sexual orientation, your parentage or other offensive terms then you might have a point. Emily may be a little silly at times (ok- a LOT silly at times) but everything she does is in good cheer- which actually IS a rule of the site.

The fact is-the power is still his. If he does not like what someone is doing--he can throw anyone off he wants off this board( be it me< Amanda, Emily-whoever) if they go too far in breaking the rules.

Let me tell you something, Nit-C has been in operation for about 12/13 years. In that time we have banned probably 4 or 5 members from the whole site. It was never an easy thing to do (except the first one, but he posted pics of aborted foetus'). There are some members that are banned from certain areas in the board (I myself have had to ban two members from my boards but they are free to post anywhere else). having seen the amount of discussion involved and what aspects of their behaviour are discussed I can tell you now that Phil would most likely reject any suggestion to either remove or ban Emily from these boards (or, indeed, to ban you from these boards).

I am not one to offer advice lightly on these boards but i strongly suggest that EVERYONE here (You, Emily and myself included) just take a bit of breather from these discussions before things get out of hand. I would hate to see anyone banned from these boards- yes John, even you. I welcome your input and everyone elses.

Technically it depends on whether "the creators" (presumably RTD and Moffat) consider them canon. One of Phil's rules for nitpicking.

Phil has rules for nitpicking...?

What if the Creators (WORSHIP THEM!) considered the books canon at the time they wrote Damaged Goods and Continuity Errors, but obviously no longer do so...?

I'm pretty sure the doc or someone says in the ep that the flares started in the 29th century and from Amy's age it can be worked out how long it's been since they started.

Yeah...so what WAS Amy's age?

I would agree with the different sets of flares but that simply doesn't fit with other eps. Earth is supposed to be inhabited in this era and controls an empire. If the doc has said the flares were a quick decade long thing thing maybe that would fit but they don't.

But we've already established that Starship UK is a little lacking in the grey cells department, and could be merrily whale-torturing for eons looking for a new planet, blissfully unaware that Earth was re-inhabitable within months. (Maybe that's how every other nation managed to get its ship off the ground: THEY knew they didn't have to build for the long-term, just for a quick trip round the moon or something.)

One thing's for sure: any race trying to avoid a catastrophe hitting Earth ALWAYS gets it hopelessly wrong by millennia...when it's not by MILLIONS of years.

Considering that we know Earths government will collapse in the future and there is a mass exodus of the solar system in the year 5000 they should have set this story then.

They REALLY shouldn't have. Who already has more than enough trouble reconciling that rubbish in Invisible Enemy about humanity only just getting round to visiting the rest of the solar system with what fifty-first century kinda guys like Captain Jack and River were getting up to...

Sadly Moffet just ruined one of the last bits of old who continuity left, the current millennium was just about the old bit that didn't contradict each other until now.

In which case you should be thanking Him for bringing it into line with the rest of Who.

Incidentally, do you mind spelling His name right whenever you slag Him off? Thanks.

Maybe the humans returned at about the same time the reptiles woke up, decided to start afresh, and without all the stupid British woman to ruin it they lived in peace.

Hang on - WOMEN are getting the blame for the fact that on ALL FOUR occasions the reptiles woke up things didn't go very well...?

I tend to blame factors like the Master, the Brigadier, the Doctor, the Silurian desire to make all us filthy apes drown in our own blood, etc etc...

I think the creators sort of view the EU as cannon. Davros's emperor Dalek case in Remembrance is right out of the comic series

But surely NO ONE regards any COMIC SERIES as anything other than an uncanonical abomination? Albeit one that throws up the occasional good idea like Emperor casings or The Lodger...

and I've read that RTD and Moffet put in a few shoutouts.

RTG also sneaked in a reference in End of the World to the Zarbi who knocked into a camera (GOD how can anyone deny this man loves Old Who? Especially The Web Planet for some perverse reason), but I doubt He regarded THAT as canonical...

As for the Silurians maybe it's a true actor who can portray something without facial expressions, besides why should they have facial expressions?

Hear hear!

Sutekh did pretty •••• well with a mask on...

The colours I could handle it's the shape.

I think you're right. One may eventually adjust to the colours (well...SOME of the colours) but I'm quite sure that after DECADES looking at one of those things from behind, it will STILL feel FUNDAMENTALLY wrong.

Also I complain that their voices sound like the emperor Dalek suddenly, I want the old voices back!

Blimey, I haven't got over the LOOK of them sufficiently to even notice the VOICES.

I doubt much of Old Who had a coherent timeline either, although I lack Emily's encyclopedic knowledge to defend that view.

You don't need an encyclopedic knowledge, all you need to do is yell UNIT DATING! in the direction of anyone who tries claiming that Old Who has a coherent timeline. That'll keep 'em tied up for years, like a computer you try that stupid 'The next thing I say will be a lie' thing on...

I'm trying to be objective in the face of prejudice.

Trust me...it's not prejudice.

It's hard, but someone has to step back and put them in perspective.

You'd have to step back so far you'd fall off the planet to get THEM in perspective. Plus why can't we have a nice UNITED fandom for once? (United in hatred, true, but still...)

Besides, I doubt they're going away; may as well get used to them.

Whereas my view is the louder and more relentlessly we scream about them, the sooner they'll go away.

Besides, remember what Rose said the Doctor taught her in Parting of the Ways? You DON'T just accept things, you take a stand, you say NO...

The fact is-the power is still his. If he does not like what someone is doing--he can throw anyone off he wants off this board( be it me< Amanda, Emily-whoever) if they go too far in breaking the rules.

Oh, I'm not denying that for a moment. Just as I can throw anyone I want off this particular part of the board. I just took my one-and-only communication from Phil - welcoming me as Moderator, thanking me and telling me to let him know if there was ever anything he could do for me - as a clear statement of non-interference in the Who board.

If you look at the logo for the Guild you will see it clearly says "And everybody gets a right to their own opinion!".

Yeah, and I didn't notice it saying 'And to repeat that extremely negative opinion over and over again until you drive the rest of the board mad.'

Add to this that this is a Discussion Board gives me the right to say what I feel so long as I don't break other rules

So basically...you don't feel the MODERATOR has any right to tell you to shut up on a certain subject?

Hell, even RODNEY respects my authority enough to limit his Horror of Fang Rock references to his permitted two a year...

By the way Amanda-I haven't bashed New Who in months

Some really really nasty nitpicky people might suggest that your statement of earlier today on the Season Six General Discussion thread - 'I'd just burn everything after McCoys last season' - might possibly be taken as a slight criticism of New Who...

And I would really like to know what "rules" you think Emily has broken.

Me too.

If she had called into question your religion, sexual orientation, your parentage or other offensive terms then you might have a point.

Eek! Seriously? But I'm ALWAYS calling Andrew's religion into question! I mean, he loves some 'Jesus' person MORE THAN THE DOCTOR!!!!

And if I found out someone's parents were Trekkies, or their sexual orientation involved Trekkie toys or something, well, I might just find myself breaking those rules again...

Emily may be a little silly at times (ok- a LOT silly at times) but everything she does is in good cheer- which actually IS a rule of the site.

*Adopts Colin-Baker-style tone of voice* Silly? SILLY?

I am not one to offer advice lightly on these boards but i strongly suggest that EVERYONE here (You, Emily and myself included) just take a bit of breather from these discussions before things get out of hand.

Yeah, let's get back on-topic...she says belatedly. How are you getting on with rewatching Human Nature, Utopia, and Journey's End?

Phil has rules for nitpicking...?

They're buried here: http://www.nitcentral.com/intro/rules.htm

Yeah...so what WAS Amy's age?

1,306.

Sutekh did pretty •••• well with a mask on...

Well, yeah, but it WAS ACTUALLY a mask, not his real face.

Plus why can't we have a nice UNITED fandom for once? (United in hatred, true, but still...)

Oh, I didn't say I didn't hate them, only that our hatred is perhaps, just SLIGHTLY unjustified.

'I'd just burn everything after McCoys last season' - might possibly be taken as a slight criticism of New Who...

I'd be lying if I didn't say I hadn't noticed that as well, although I think JEP's original premise was that because we had slagged New Who off so much by the time he got here, we actually hated it (said slagging of Old Who apparently going unnoticed).

And if I found out someone's parents were Trekkies

Oh, dear. Mom bought me some bridge crew dolls one Christmas, although I think they were more for her than me.

Hell, even RODNEY respects my authority enough to limit his Horror of Fang Rock references to his permitted two a year...

The temptation to reference that story on a lot of boards (say every board on the classic series) and see if you'd actually go through and delete them is fast becoming overpowering....

Some really really nasty nitpicky people might suggest that your statement of earlier today on the Season Six General Discussion thread - 'I'd just burn everything after McCoys last season' - might possibly be taken as a slight criticism of New Who...

Oooh BANG! She shoots, she scooores!!

And if I found out someone's parents were Trekkies, or their sexual orientation involved Trekkie toys or something, well, I might just find myself breaking those rules again...

So I shouldn't tell you that I have every series of every version of Trek plus all 11 movies on dvd then?

Yeah, let's get back on-topic...she says belatedly. How are you getting on with rewatching Human Nature, Utopia, and Journey's End?
Oi! get in line! I'm still waiting for Jep to watch the end of Last of The Time Lords and Time Crash and try and counter my arguments...

Rodney:Some really really nasty nitpicky people might suggest that your statement of earlier today on the Season Six General Discussion thread - 'I'd just burn everything after McCoys last season' - might possibly be taken as a slight criticism of New Who...

Oooh BANG! She shoots, she scooores!!

Not really for two reasons:

First off:the copied line wasn't made intil 15 hours after the one here.

Second-while it looks bad when out of context-if you read the complete message it's a little different:

Emily:Well, if you ask ME it peaked after episode one of An Unearthly Child. All that cavepeople stuff was a GRAVE let-down. Obviously the programme should have been abolished then and there...


Me: That might be a little extreme-there were a few highpoints.

I'd just burn everything after McCoys last season.


If you read the entire thing it's clear I'm playing off Emilys joke-the only mistake I made was picking a bad break point.

I thought that if I could get Emilys joke(and I'm often not sure when she's joking) then anyone could-and that my building on that joke would also be funny.

Sheeesh.

They're buried here: http://www.nitcentral.com/intro/rules.htm

Thanks, I'd, er, better read 'em sometime...

Yeah...so what WAS Amy's age?

1,306.

OK, so if she was 21 when getting married in 2010 Amy was born in 1989 (god, I feel old), so Beast Below occurs in 3,295 - so assuming the solar flares occurred in the LATE rather than early twenty-ninth century that whale would've spent 300 years getting tortured, instead of 400 as Danny suggested...of course, it COULD have been the early twenty-ninth century (unless the Doctor mentioned the word 'late'? Does anyone remember? Why the hell don't they do Script Books any more?) but there's no reason it should be, given that that WOULD almost definitely clash with the Old Who timeline (though when DID that specifically mention the thirtieth century? It's obviously the century the NAs established that the Empire lasted until, but we just can't take their word for anything any more....).

Sutekh did pretty •••• well with a mask on...

Well, yeah, but it WAS ACTUALLY a mask, not his real face.

Oh. Yeah. But the point still stands. Get a good enough actor and an immobile face doesn't matter. And thanks to the miracle of modern technology, no doubt we COULD have had a mask similar to the original Silurians, but with a moving mouth or something.

Plus why can't we have a nice UNITED fandom for once? (United in hatred, true, but still...)

Oh, I didn't say I didn't hate them, only that our hatred is perhaps, just SLIGHTLY unjustified.

Ah, that's such a nice, healthy attitude.

Forget it - our reaction to the multicoloured abominations ought to be ENTIRELY in keeping with Eccy's first sight of a Dalek...

Oh, dear. Mom bought me some bridge crew dolls one Christmas, although I think they were more for her than me.

Parents, eh? *Shakes head despairingly* Larkin got THAT one right...

The temptation to reference that story on a lot of boards (say every board on the classic series) and see if you'd actually go through and delete them is fast becoming overpowering....

Now I'm feeling just like Davros when Tom was tempting him with a virus. Can you doubt that I too would gleefully exercise my power?

So I shouldn't tell you that I have every series of every version of Trek plus all 11 movies on dvd then?

You should DEFINITELY keep THAT piece of information to yourself.

How are you getting on with rewatching Human Nature, Utopia, and Journey's End?
Oi! get in line! I'm still waiting for Jep to watch the end of Last of The Time Lords and Time Crash and try and counter my arguments...

But he DOES actually have a leg to stand on if he wants to shovel Time Crash in with Curse of Fatal Death as noncanonical. Whereas trying to decanonise Human Nature will be a bit trickier...Plus LotTL is unlikely to overcome his New Who aversion...

I thought that if I could get Emilys joke(and I'm often not sure when she's joking) then anyone could-and that my building on that joke would also be funny.

The trouble is, in view of your previous comments, it isn't clear that you're joking. Whereas everyone is unlikely to believe that MY life would be enhanced by staring at my DVD of all 25 minutes of Who, arguing on-line about what colour the fog would be if it was in colour, listening to the Coal Hill School audios narrated by Ian Chesterton, reading the spin-off novel series about that policeman in the mist...

I got the idea in the Invisible Enemy that humanity was leaving the solar system not Earth. And we know Earth's empires have come and gone so it sort of makes sense. I like your theory that the flares were a quick thing, maybe the other nations never left at all they just used a heat ray to trick us and get rid of us lol. Still there is the individual nations thing.

Btw sorry about the misspelling it's my auto correct

You're right women didn't ruin the first three. It was a psychotic reptile the first time. The Master mostly the second time. The minister didn't help much but he had no way of knowing the doc had made the Sea Devils change their minds. The third time it was more psychotic reptiles and the most recent time it was idiot mum and another psychotic reptile. Maybe we should reconsider this living with them thing. i was only mentioning women as this is a third reptile species. Even if this lot live in peace the Sea Devils and Silurians will still be asleep.

Amanda is right thus far we've only heard the supreme Dalek speak so we're not sure what the other sound like. And thinking about it didn't the stone dalek have a normal voice? If not take back every defense made of their voices!

I don't think we ever got specific date as to when the flares took place in that century tho I think there might be a line as to the age of the ship or Liz 10 or something like that that gives a clue as to when the ship left. 350ish springs to mind for some reason. They specifically mentioned the 30th century in the Mutants and Terror of the Vervoids. Both stated in no uncertain terms Earth was inhabited and was in reasonably good shape in Vervoids.

And thinking about it didn't the stone dalek have a normal voice?

But was the stone Dalek the white one, or one of the other two yellow and red ones?

Emily:The trouble is, in view of your previous comments, it isn't clear that you're joking. Whereas everyone is unlikely to believe that MY life would be enhanced by staring at my DVD of all 25 minutes of Who, arguing on-line about what colour the fog would be if it was in colour, listening to the Coal Hill School audios narrated by Ian Chesterton, reading the spin-off novel series about that policeman in the mist...


No, the real trouble is-whatever I say is always taken in the worst possible light!

Every joke I've tried in this group has either been ignored, or I get a group slap-down-I'm really fetting tired of it--other than after the movie, can you name a better breakpoint for my punchline(those two spots seeming to be the most logical points-no matter how you feel about New Who)????

Emily,Rodney:How are you getting on with rewatching Human Nature, Utopia, and Journey's End?
Oi! get in line! I'm still waiting for Jep to watch the end of Last of The Time Lords and Time Crash and try and counter my arguments...

The simple truth is:with my being involved in a major dispute where the two most likely outcomes(Emily tossing me out,or my storming out in anger) would curtail my posting here, I really don't see the need to do research until after it's resolved.

By the way- I've been re-reading the posts that got me so hated in the first place starting with my Turn Left post on August 9,2010 at 9:04pm(you might want to go to Emilys August 8, 2010 at 11:37 am to get the thread) until my last post there and i find myself wondering--HOW DID I END UP CAST AS THE BAD GUY HERE????

I really don't see where it went wrong--most of what I did was answer the questions that were put to me. The biggest mistake I made wasone post where I questioned the love of the people here for Who( if you look at the sections on audios,novels, and the Who 101:Abridged Emily-you might see where I could get that idea)-and after I was called in it-I did apologise.

I was insulted, my late father was insulted, I was verbally(?) abused, and I was shouted down(I think that's what they call flaming,by the way-those are the site rules that you broke Emily), and when I asked for a simple apology-I was harshly turned down. At which point I stopped posting here for months. When I started again I found that I was now the most hated man in this area( I don't even need to post to get insulted around here!!!).

So, I guess what I'm asking is--HOW THE SMEG DID I BECOME THE MOST HATED PERSON ON THE BOARD????

I was insulted, my late father was insulted, I was verbally(?) abused, and I was shouted down(I think that's what they call flaming,by the way-those are the site rules that you broke Emily)

Can I ask you- for about the third or fourth time- to please point us to exactly where this occured? I find it hard to believe that any one of the regular posters would stoop so low... so before you paint us as some kind of redneck community can you actually provide some proof of this?

Maybe it's because when we ask you- politely i might add- to provide evidence of your claims you simply don't that it might go some way into answering your last question.

And I would suggest that the word "hate" is a very strong word. I don't hate you- why should I? Gosh, if I "hated" every person on this planet who didn't watch Doctor Who or didn't like it then I would be afar lonelier person than I already am.

My simple suggestion is this- dial down the rhetoric and emotional onslaughts. Nobody here has abused you, your father or anything else- that's just you trying to sound like a wounded bull (unless you can provide me with evidence to suggest otherwise).