Moderator's Note: It has been suggested that Sabbath is a has-been undeserving of his own thread. So I moved him here.

Here is my character summary:

'The Doctor said, "You son of a •••••!"'

He elopes with the Doctor's 13-year-old prostitute fiancee. He saves the Doctor's life...by stealing one of his hearts. He invents an ape-crewed eighteenth-century time-travelling submarine. He's a skinhead. He genocides people with clock-faces. He sacrifices himself to eternal torture.


And here's Mike's original Sabbath summary:

It's still early to make a judgement on Sabbath. He debuted in the EDA "The Adventuress of Henrietta Street", where he removed the 8th Doctor's failing 2nd heart.



It's never too early to make a judgement about that god-awful ******* Sabbath! OK, so he saved the Doctor's life, but APART from that he's a complete git. He nicks the Doctor’s bride (admittedly, good riddance to her), his idea of sending the Doctor a message is to have him viciously beaten up, and he actually has the temerity to think that a) someone is needed to replace the Doctor, and b) HE is a worthy candidate! I notice you don't have any problems with putting him in the villain's section! Have you SEEN what he's done in Anachrophobia??? (NB: anyone who wants to find out need only read the last three pages, and spare themselves the boredom of ploughing through the rest of the book.) That’s GENOCIDE – and genocide that he gets the Doctor to perform rather than sully his own fat hands. When the hell is the Doctor finally going to give him his comeuppance? Frankly I’m beginning to doubt that McGann has it in him, so I'm really hoping that Sabbath bumps into the Fourth Doctor.

OK, since I wrote that the Doctor has given Sabbath his comeuppance on several occasions. In fact, it's gone from Sabbath winning every round (nicking the Doctor's heart in Adventuress, tricking him into committing genocide in Anachrophobia, and doing SOMETHING hideous to him in History 101 even though I don't quite see what...not realising that whatshisname was Sabbath's agent doesn't really justify the Doctor's fury about his Spanish experience at the beginning of Camera Obscura) to the Doctor smugly triumphing over Sabbath in every book (getting his agents killed in Trading Futures, getting his girlfriend killed and preventing him from obtaining a time machine in Camera Obscura, preventing him from creating a single universe in Time Zero, and preventing him from gaining control of the universe in Infinity Race.)

I never thought I'd say it, but maybe - given that Sabbath created a time machine from scratch in the eighteenth century, whereas the Doctor didn't even realise the blue box he'd been lugging around for 120 years WAS a time machine - things shouldn't have become quite so tipped in the Doctor's favour. It's not as if he's got his memory back or anything. And - oh. I was about to say that it's not as if he's as ruthless as Sabbath but given that the Doctor deliberately blows Sabbath up in Infinity Race, I'm not so sure about that.

So somebody, anybody, list every book that Sabbath has appeared in.

You're wish is my command, oh mighty Luke:

The Adventuress of Henrietta Street
Anachrophobia
Trading Futures (mentioned only)
History 101
Camera Obscura
Time Zero
The Infinity Race

I assume he'll be in some future novels as well.

Ha! A paltry and incomplete list, O not-so-mighty Moderator. He also appears (briefly, namelessly and silently) in some pre-Adventuress books, but I (obviously) didn't spot him at the time, and I'm not exactly planning on rereading the likes of Slow Empire in an attempt to spot him.

Plus (admittedly this isn't in the books) there's mention of 'Godfather Sabbath' - the head of Faction Paradox's military wing - in The Faction Paradox Protocols II: The Shadow Play. The cast list for FPP III and IV includes a Godfather Sabbath, so we'll actually hear what the git sounds like. Plus there's a very obvious (if you happen to speak Japanese and can translate his name, that is) reference to Sabbath in The Book of The War.

The Sabbath of the Faction Paradox universe (where Gallifrey (sorry, the Homeworld) wasn't destroyed in The Ancestor Cell) did, of course, take a completely different path from the one in the Whoniverse. With the Time Lords (sorry, the Great Houses) still around, Sabbath presumably wouldn't have felt the need to take their place and become a defender of history. Though this doesn't quite explain why he felt the need to join a bunch of time travelling voodooists dedicated to the vandalisation of history instead.

I've been watching some episodes of 'Room 101' (1996-2004). The basis of the show is that guests have to convince the host that pet hates of theirs should be cast into Room 101 and thus removed forever from life. If they don't have a convincing enough argument it doesn't go in.

Michael Grade was on and managed to get 'Doctor Who' into Room 101. If that doesn't qualify him as a villain I don't know what does.

In his defence he also cancelled 'Miss World' when in charge of the BBC and managed to get beauty contests into Room 101.

Re Last Post
Unfortunately for Mr Grade, a later show had Jessica Stephenson/Hynes as the guest, & she nominated him For Room 101.
Paul Merton agreed with her argument, & put Mr Grade into Room 101, with the result that both Doctor Who & Beauty Contests came out of Room 101...

I wonder if Faction Paradox and Sabbath should be moved or deleted. They are novel villians, and the novels stopped being canon five years ago now.

Several thoughts are springing to mind here:

Over my dead body! I've just written them new biographies and everything! Have you ANY IDEA how much work it was to find a decent Sabbath quote to stick at the top of his section??? (Alright, so I failed. But it STILL took a lot of flicking through godawful piles of ****.)

Canon? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Faction Paradox laugh in the face of canon! In fact, Faction initiation ceremonies involve nipping back in time and killing your own grandfather, just to make QUITE SURE you are TOTALLY uncanonical at ALL TIMES!

Who involves an infinity of alternative universes, AND the timelines being constantly rewritten. Just because something happens to be uncanonical NOW, doesn't mean it NEVER happened. (See the Daal/Thal War, Time Lord immortality (barring accidents), the half-human Doctor, the Morbius faces, the Doctor being from 'eons and universes' away, Susan inventing the acronym 'TARDIS', McCoy being 953, the Harriet Jones Golden Age, etc etc etc.)

Plus, the entire universe has just been rebooted. Who knows WHAT crept back, along with Amy's parents? If there's one thing Season 5/31 proves, it's if something can be remembered, it can come back. And I remember the Faction AND Sabbath quite well.

The Faction is a helluvalot better than any villain that's been created since fairly early on in the Old Series. (RTG obviously agrees, what with stealing the idea for his Sycorax.)

I WILL be rereading a lot of those EDAs (to find out what the hell was going on) at some point, so Sabbath can hope for a bit more attention...one day.

Sabbath exists at every point in space and time, in eternal agony (or something). He committed the ultimate in self-sacrifice for us. (I think.) You REALLY want to toss him aside like worthless garbage...?

On the other hand, he's a bit of a git. HE RIPPED MY DOCTOR'S HEART OUT.

The Faction Paradox section has quite a few posts. AND is an ongoing concern. It has TWO novel series and TWO audio series to its credit. And a short stories Faction collection is being written even as we speak. (On the other hand, there's a FP section in the Novels, AND an 'other spin-off audios' section to cover such things.)

Come to think of it, Godfather Sabbath AND eighteenth-century secret service Sabbath have popped up in the FP audios, so I wouldn't write him/them off as history just yet. (Even if one of 'em HAS been swallowed by •••••-TARDIS Lolita.)

In summary, after careful consideration, I may just move Sabbath into this section. But the Faction is staying put. All Hail the Grandfather!

Whatever, but you yourself said the books are drivel now.

The books were ALWAYS drivel. 90% of 'em, anyway. It's just rather more annoying now that they aren't even REAL...though quite liberating too, and, let's face it, I didn't believe a WORD of Rags, Divided Loyalties, King of Terror, etc...

So why are you still clinging to that Loom nonsense? Given Susan's relationship to the Doctor, he MUST have family. Why the books choose another route is completely unexplained or supported.

I'm ready to dump the Looms. (Though that's painful, they were the only excuse for subjecting oneself to the shocking tedium that is Lungbarrow.) Sound of Drums certainly destroyed the concept of Gallifreyans emerging full-grown from the wretched things.

I'm just not ready to face the concept of the Doctor having sex yet. He's the DOCTOR.

Like I said, once the series went back into production, bye bye canon novels.

Emily-If the book (or tape or cd) is that bad-don't torture yourself with it. Being a Doctor Who fan(or fan of anything) is about having fun, it is not meant to make you unhappy,or miserable as you think about forcing yourself to read(or listen to) the newest piece of garbage to come out-go watch a good story-it's a bettor use of your time.

And if you feel compelled by "duty" to try-go to your nearby library(some bookstores now also have reading rooms)-try a couple of chapters,and if it's really bad-put up a review saying:

" I'm sorry people-I tried; I just can't deal with this ****ing piece of ****-, if you want a review,someone else will have to do it!!!"

Then go home, put in one of you favs, and enjoy yourself-no one who matters will think less of you-you are one of the most dedicated moderators I've seen at Nitpickers Central.

Always remember-it's meant to be fun.

Tim:
The Chelonians of the NAs were canonised.

Green turtles??

Like I said, once the series went back into production, bye bye canon novels.

On the other hand, the NSAs are presumably supposed to be canon - though after The Stone Rose I'm finding this difficult to swallow.

Emily-If the book (or tape or cd) is that bad-don't torture yourself with it. Being a Doctor Who fan(or fan of anything) is about having fun, it is not meant to make you unhappy,or miserable as you think about forcing yourself to read(or listen to) the newest piece of garbage to come out-go watch a good story-it's a bettor use of your time.

*Sobbing noises* Alas, such words of wisdom come YEARS too late. Like the human race in general, I seem incapable of striking a happy medium. Fandom USED to mean fun. Now, while it brings joy beyond my wildest dreams, it also involves flagellating myself with the likes of Big Finish. I KNOW this is insane. I spent YEARS holding out against the NAs and MAs...more years holding out against the audios...and I'm STILL refusing to read those comics...But it seems that Who, like most other religions, requires SUFFERING. Why should we get all this joy without having to PAY for it, one way or another?

And if you feel compelled by "duty" to try-go to your nearby library(some bookstores now also have reading rooms)-try a couple of chapters,and if it's really bad-put up a review saying:

" I'm sorry people-I tried; I just can't deal with this ****ing piece of ****-, if you want a review,someone else will have to do it!!!"

Actually that's pretty much what I DID do with the NA Parasite. (I'm a fanatic but not quite THAT much of a fanatic.) I just...don't seem capable of making a habit of it. I really thought I'd draw the line at reading another Mick Lewis, but when my pleas went unanswered and no other Nitcentraller stepped forward, I just gritted my teeth and got on with it.

Then go home, put in one of you favs, and enjoy yourself-no one who matters will think less of you-you are one of the most dedicated moderators I've seen at Nitpickers Central.

ONE of the most dedicated!!! *Glares around wildly* which are the ones with the temerity to be MORE dedicated, and what should I do to wipe the floor with them...?

Always remember-it's meant to be fun.

Yeah, that was the logic I used to commit the blasphemous act of pressing that 'off' switch on Trial, all those decades ago. Now I'd probably remain in a burning building rather than miss a moment of new Who.

The Chelonians of the NAs were canonised.

True! So was the planet Lucifer. Though they count for little when weighed against the pile of flat contradictions about Sarah, the Brig, the Eighth Doctor, not to mention the lack of deja vu during Human Nature.

Green turtles??

Yeah, they were part of the Alliance of Evil. Not that we actually SAW them, mind you...

Oh, and if the New Series Adventures ARE supposed to be canon (and presumably it's so - we even get to see Justicia, as mentioned in Boom Town. In fact, the novels are the ONLY time we get to see Eccy on an alien planet) then what's the consequence of Benny Summerfield being mentioned in The Glamour Chase? Does that render her appearances in so many Seventh Doctor New Adventures...her own series of NAs...her appearances in Big Finish novels, short stories AND dozens of audios...all suddenly canonical?

I'm getting a headache!

One of the lessons I've learned over the years is:NEVER treat secondary material(and I'm including novels,novelizations(sp?),short stories,cds,tech manuals,and games) as canon-far too often I've had something I've believed yanked out from under me by the latest story. If it's a good story-enjoy it,if not dump it-just don't assume it's canon(I mean who would have thought little Ace was so busy between the sheets-I've even seena a story where she does Wesley-stinking-Crusher(yuck!!!!).

There,there Emily-I didn't mean for you to cry-and this is a lesson it took me a long time to learn--if a part of a hobby is making you unhappy-don't do that part. It's that easy.

And it's not too late-I'm guessing there's a lot of places coming up where you can use that review,or ones like it(good for you on Parasite),and if you do-you'll be bettor off.

You're a strong-minded person(I know I don't want to cross you)-don't let fandom force you to do anything you don't want to do.

About dedication,you're lucky-I've seen very few groups as active as this one;it's the ones who watch as no one posts in a group for 9 years and then jumps in for a round of kick the newby when someone does post there(but what they're dedicated to I don't know).Oops-sorry-I'm venting again(chill,John,chill).

One of the lessons I've learned over the years is:NEVER treat secondary material(and I'm including novels,novelizations(sp?),short stories,cds,tech manuals,and games) as canon

Very sensible. But also easier said than done...when you have the Sixteen Long And Barren Years of Despair to cope with.

if a part of a hobby is making you unhappy-don't do that part.

Who isn't a HOBBY! Who is my LIFE! Not to mention the only possible reason why humanity bothered crawling out of the primordial slime in the first place.

don't let fandom force you to do anything you don't want to do.

It's not fandom. It's me. Every time I pay GOOD MONEY for some (admittedly second-hand) godawful pile of Big Finish rubbish I TELL myself it's because I can't possibly leave gaping holes where reviews should be in the Audio section, but let's face it...the other Nitcentrallers wouldn't exactly be rioting in the streets about it. In fact, I'd be surprised if they even NOTICED. It's because I can't stand the thought of not listening to the non-canonical drivel. And then having it sitting on my shelf. Unbelievably sad, I know.

My Top Ten Human Villains (On-Screen Who only):

Professor Zaroff. Yeah, he'll probably be in my Bottom Ten too, for the accent, lack of motivation, lack of plausibility etc etc...but isn't he GREAT! The very first person you think of when the subject of Who villainy comes up...

The Warriors Gate crew. They get the banality of slavery so much better than, say, Planet of the Ood. Plus those unionised unfeeling lazy gits were spot-on.

Tlotoxl. He has such character. And facepaint. And the courage of his convictions. Plus he was totally right about Barbara. And not many people manage to trick the Doctor - the DOCTOR! - into helping 'em destroy one of his Companions.

The Inferno gang. The Brigade Leader! The Section Leader! Whatever Benton was in that universe! And Stahlman (in both universes)! For world-destroying Fascists, they're ADORABLE!

Lady Cassandra Dot Delta Dot Seventeen. The Last Human. And what a human! So fantastic she had to be brought back from the dead to be homicidally nasty all over again...

Count Grendal. (Tara has GOT to be a human colony, right?) He was GLORIOUS! Plus, best parting line of any villain EVER!

Those Dalek Invasion of Earth collaborators. They'd sell anyone for an orange. I like 'em. (Though I'm still wondering where the Daleks got the oranges...)

Liz 10. She tortures whales. She feeds ickle kiddies to The Beast. She murders anyone who doesn't vote her way. Yet it's almost impossible to think of her as the Bad Guy. She's the bloody queen....bascially, she rules.

Lee H'sen Chang. A monster with real depth. And a drug habit. Quite rare.

Lance. A surprising number of humans have attempted to sell their planet out to treacherous aliens for no readily apparent reason. Lance, however, stands out for delivering the most vicious line in Who history. Dosing an extremely annoying Donna with deadly Huon particles in order to destroy humanity...fair enough. Telling her she isn't as good in bed as a giant spider...that's just MEAN.

God. That was quite a surprise. Well, I suppose the monsters have always been the only category in which Old Who beats the hell out of New.

>Liz 10. She tortures whales. Feeds children. Has Amnesia... etc.

Sh was trying to stop that. Her underlings generalygot in her way of tying to fix things.

Oh Emily, Emily, Emily...such stupidity does NOT become you...

Professor Zaroff. Yeah, he'll probably be in my Bottom Ten too, for the accent, lack of motivation, lack of plausibility etc etc...but isn't he GREAT! The very first person you think of when the subject of Who villainy comes up...
Ooooh I don't know about that- I'd think of Daleks, Davros, Cybermen, Sonbtarans....well...just about ANYONE else loooong before Zaroff when it comes to villany...

Liz 10. She tortures whales. She feeds ickle kiddies to The Beast. She murders anyone who doesn't vote her way. Yet it's almost impossible to think of her as the Bad Guy. She's the bloody queen....bascially, she rules.
She ISN'T the bad guy. She was faced with an impossible choice. I'm sure had she been in full knowledge of all the facts she would have done differently, she certainly didn't complain when she became aware of the full story now did she?

Lee H'sen Chang. A monster with real depth. And a drug habit. Quite rare.
You are talking about the same Lee H'San Chang from the telemovie right?? A common American Asian stereotype that crops up in every single movie/tv series involving asian gangs. There is absolutely nothing menacing about him.

Here's a couple suggestions from me...

Salamnder- He's Mexican and quite prepared to incinerate the world just to rule it. AND he looks like Patrick Troughton...

Marshal from "the Mutants"- Sadistic, cruel, hunts Solon mutants for fun and organises to assassinate the Earth Administrator in a vain attempt to keep his filthy secrets.

Harrison Chase- Would rather see the human population wiped out and live in a world of plants. Hippie to a deadly extreme...

You are talking about the same Lee H'San Chang from the telemovie right?? A common American Asian stereotype that crops up in every single movie/tv series involving asian gangs. There is absolutely nothing menacing about him

No, she's talking about the guy in Talons Of Weing Chiang.

No, she's talking about the guy in Talons Of Weing Chiang.

So she is. The $tupid thing is that I actually watched this story only recently. Ok, I'll go quietly (and I'm silently relieved that I was wrong- couldn't imagine Emily getting so worked up over a character in the TELEMOVIE!).

Professor Zaroff. Yeah, he'll probably be in my Bottom Ten too, for the accent, lack of motivation, lack of plausibility etc etc...but isn't he GREAT! The very first person you think of when the subject of Who villainy comes up...

Ooooh I don't know about that- I'd think of Daleks, Davros, Cybermen, Sonbtarans....well...just about ANYONE else loooong before Zaroff when it comes to villany...

Well, you might if you didn't notice this section was about human villains.

I'm sure had she been in full knowledge of all the facts she would have done differently

She was in full knowledge of the facts. And she'd have made the same choice AGAIN if Amy hadn't taken a suicidal guess that the space whale wasn't going to retaliate against its torturers for the sake of some OTHER SPECIES' kids!

Harrison Chase is a good one (not to mention his stupid henchmen). And Lance.

How about Solon? Can't get much worse than trying to put Morbius into our hero's skull.

And what about that obnoxious New Yorker who ended up as a human-dalek?

Max Capricorn's retirement plan? (Although I suppose he might not technically be human.)

Well, you might if you didn't notice this section was about human villains.
I'm well aware of what the subject was about Amanda, but Emily did not make that distinction in her assessment of Zaroff... Let me quote... "The very first person you think of when the subject of WHO VILLANY comes up" (emphasis mine).

But even if she HAD made the qualification I STILL wouldn't agree with her given the number of other human villans already mentioned here...

Ooooh I don't know about that- I'd think of Daleks, Davros, Cybermen, Sonbtarans....well...just about ANYONE else loooong before Zaroff when it comes to villany...

But THEY'RE what I think of when it comes to MONSTERS. You can't look at an individual Dalek or Cyberman and think villain. (Well, maybe if they do an episode where they get moustaches to twirl and a girl to tie onto some railway tracks. After Daleks in Manhattan I wouldn't rule ANYTHING out.)

Obviously Davros is a villain AND a monster and he'd top my list...if he was human.

She ISN'T the bad guy. She was faced with an impossible choice.

Well, yeah. So was Davros. So was Rassilon. They chose wrong. Ergo, they're villains.

I'm sure had she been in full knowledge of all the facts she would have done differently, she certainly didn't complain when she became aware of the full story now did she?

I suspect if the Whale had slowed down instead of speeding up she'd've been complaining her royal head off. Besides, it's the fact she didn't show any remorse when the truth came out that really gets to me. I might have forgiven her her 'mistake'. But how would YOU have reacted if you'd discovered that you'd totally unnecessarily tortured a wonderful, sentient being that had come to help you for THREE HUNDRED YEARS? Or if your wholesale massacre of all the most principled people on Starship UK turned out to be for nothing? Might you not have at least shown a flicker of RELIEF when it turned out that all those CHILDREN you had TRIED to murder all these years had actually survived?

But does Liz shed a tear? Abdicate (properly, this time)? Slash her wrists? Put herself on trial? The hell she does. She just goes on ruling for AT LEAST another 2,000 years, as if she's REMOTELY fit to do so.

(And, dammit, I still love her anyway! And I'm a republican! I loathe all monarchs except Richard III on principle!)

A common American Asian stereotype that crops up in every single movie/tv series involving asian gangs. There is absolutely nothing menacing about him.

Ah, I hadn't even realised he was a stereotype. But yeah, I'd no more bother thinking of him as a villain than I would as a Companion.

Salamnder- He's Mexican and quite prepared to incinerate the world just to rule it. AND he looks like Patrick Troughton...

He VERY NEARLY made it onto my list. He'd UNDOUBTEDLY have got there if the BBC hadn't BURNT ALL HIS BLOODY EPISODES (well, aside from the one with everyone standing around in a corridor and a kitchen for half an hour. Did he even APPEAR in that?).

Marshal from "the Mutants"- Sadistic, cruel, hunts Solon mutants for fun and organises to assassinate the Earth Administrator in a vain attempt to keep his filthy secrets.

Plus there was his creepy plan to 'repopulate' Solos...with Jo Grant...

Harrison Chase- Would rather see the human population wiped out and live in a world of plants. Hippie to a deadly extreme...

I've never been that taken with Chase, no doubt because I've never been that taken with Seeds of Doom. Have to admit, him snarling 'WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT BONSAI?' was a great moment. You wouldn't catch any other Who villain doing THAT.

couldn't imagine Emily getting so worked up over a character in the TELEMOVIE!

Hey - I spent many years getting worked up about characters in that telemovie. Thank God (Russell T God, obviously) that this unhappy necessity is FAR behind me...

How about Solon? Can't get much worse than trying to put Morbius into our hero's skull.

Yeah, I was sorry he got squeezed off my list. Loved the way he kept poor Condo hanging on waiting for that arm...Also, not many people share his (and my) extreme admiration of Tom Baker's magnificent head.

And what about that obnoxious New Yorker who ended up as a human-dalek?

I did consider Diagoras, but frankly he wasn't quite interesting enough as a human (yet another one selling his planet to the Daleks for insufficient motivation before being astonished they betrayed him) OR as that ludicrously nice, ludicrous-looking Human-Dalek.

Max Capricorn's retirement plan? (Although I suppose he might not technically be human.)

Nah, none of those Stow (Stoe. Sto. Whatever) people are human. They just happen to be indistinguishable from humans in every way.

"The very first person you think of when the subject of WHO VILLANY comes up" (emphasis mine).

•••• right he is. You mean you DON'T find yourself instinctively shrieking 'NOZZING IN ZE VORLD VILL SCHTOP ME NOOOOOOOOOW!' every time the subject of villainy comes up?

But does Liz shed a tear? Abdicate (properly, this time)? Slash her wrists? Put herself on trial? The hell she does. She just goes on ruling for AT LEAST another 2,000 years, as if she's REMOTELY fit to do so.

Well the point is we don't actually know! The end credits are rolling pretty soon after the event. For all we know, she did all of the above and maybe her punishment was to be kept Queen for 2000 years??

Did he even APPEAR in that?
Yup- more than The Doctor does if I recall...

You wouldn't catch any other Who villain doing THAT.
My point exactly- he gets so worked up about Bonsai trees that he's prepared to hassle politicians about it...

You mean you DON'T find yourself instinctively shrieking 'NOZZING IN ZE VORLD VILL SCHTOP ME NOOOOOOOOOW!' every time the subject of villainy comes up?

Erm...no. I obviously hang around with different people who have lives of some description...

So far, only actual Who villians have been mentioned. This could be expanded to the Who universe. Frobisher might just make my list.

Well the point is we don't actually know! The end credits are rolling pretty soon after the event.

There was AMPLE time for Liz to look a bit guilty!

maybe her punishment was to be kept Queen for 2000 years??

Maybe her punishment was thousands of years of life and power and riches?! Someone find me a whale to torture!

Did he even APPEAR in that?
Yup- more than The Doctor does if I recall...

OK, I'll be watching that episode again, pronto.

You mean you DON'T find yourself instinctively shrieking 'NOZZING IN ZE VORLD VILL SCHTOP ME NOOOOOOOOOW!' every time the subject of villainy comes up?

Erm...no. I obviously hang around with different people who have lives of some description...

Hey - I'm not racist. I've nothing against hanging around with Not We. (Some of my best friends are - well, actually, come to think of it, since the new series, NONE of my friends are Not We any more. ('You belong to us. You shall be like us...') Anyway, the point is, you just get the poor creatures well-trained to expect you to yell 'Nozzing in ze vorld...' or 'Never trust a man with dirty fingernails' or 'One day, I shall come back. Yes, I shall come back' or 'You're a classic example of the inverse ratio between the size of the mouth and the size of the brain' whenever you feel it appropriate.

This could be expanded to the Who universe. Frobisher might just make my list.

Are you crazy? I don't know what he gets up to in the *shudders* comics, but in Holy Terror he's a HERO! All hail the great talking bird! Plus he's not remotely human, he's a Wiffer...Wifferdil?...um...penguin, OK?

Oh.

Sorry, I'm with you now.

Yeah, he was the best of villains. The kind who ruined everything...but who you still cried for when he blew his family's brains out.

Then there was slimy Eckersley from Monster Of Peladon. What was that guy thinking!?

He was thinking that Galaxy Five would honourably hand him over a share of Peladon's trisilicate profits as arranged, and that with said profits he'd be the richest and most powerful man in the galaxy AND the ruler of Earth.

I think the question is more 'What was that guy ON?'

It's a pity because at first he's a pretty effective traitor. It's just later that he starts info-dumping about his own treachery in front of video cameras.

Also, he just HAD to take the Queen hostage. If he had made for his ship when everything fell apart, instead of bothering with her, he would have gotten clean away. Idiot.

Well, Eckersley DID only have a moment or two to decide whether it would be riskier to move swiftly through the tunnels and hope not to encounter anyone who knew he was a filthy traitor...or to move more slowly dragging Thalira and having a useful hostage/human shield if he DID meet anyone who knew. Sure, he made the wrong choice, but at least it was an understandable one...especially as he didn't know about Aggy's tracking skills.

Though come to think of it, Thalira's bedraggled presence would have been enough to tip off even a Pel Thicko that he was A Bad Man. On the other hand, he may have been figuring that any Pel he met would try to bash his head in through sheer xenophobia anyway. God, this is getting complicated. Remind me never to become a double-dealing traitor.

He was thinking that Galaxy Five would honourably hand him over a share of Peladon's trisilicate profits as arranged, and that with said profits he'd be the richest and most powerful man in the galaxy AND the ruler of Earth

It's more likely that they would just kill him once his usefulness has ended.

Well, QUITE. ASTONISHING, how many people are prepared to genocidally stab everyone else in the back but expect their temporary, genocidal, back-stabbing allies-of-convenience to behave with the utmost honour...

I noticed that Eckersley follows the trend of no first name. Did first names go out of style in the future Whoniverse?

Eckersley might have become a first name by whenever Peladon is set. It's happened often enough before, whenever someone gets sufficiently famous - General Gordon, for example, though it doesn't have to be a military leader. I could see a really devoted Who fan naming their child Baker Tennant Hartnell Smith, after their favourite three Doctors.

Clearly, in the future, this has happened a lot. Either that, or the Tardis translation used to enforce old fashioned politeness - no first names, unless you'd known each other for 30 years or were family. It might be one of her many glorious quirks.

Eckersley might have become a first name by whenever Peladon is set

Okay, then what is his last name?

Maybe his real name was Ecker Sley?

What we SHOULD be more worried about is why on Earth everyone wanders round Peladon calling themselves by the name of their planet. That's just WEIRD.

Okay, then what is his last name?

Eckersley, obviously. It wouldn't be the only name that was dual purpose - I once knew a Rupert Norris and a Norris Giles - it just requires cruel parent, exactly the kind whose criminal lack of affection would be expected to produce a deranged back-stabber.

It's also possible that by that time, locatives have become fashionable again. Everyone might be calling themselves things like Pertwee Johnson of Wimbledon and Hartnel Ford of Milton Keynes, with only the location being used in polite circles - such as among interstellar diplomats. Eckerlsey's full name, as written on his tombstone, might well have been Eckersley Eckersley of Eckerlsey.

I knew a Canadian general once who's name was Robert Robert.

Eckersley Eckersley!?

Now I know why he wanted to be ruler of Earth, so he could get back at all the bullies that used to beat him up because of his name!

What if Eckersley had been taken alive? What would have happened to him? Would he have been put on trial by the Federation or by Peladon?

If I were him, I'd hope for the Feds, the worst he would get is a long stint in a penal colony. If the Pels tried him (assuming they would bother with such a formality and rather just move to the Main Event), well, you can just imagine...

If the Pels tried him (assuming they would bother with such a formality and rather just move to the Main Event), well, you can just imagine...

Actually they'll no longer be able to indulge in their favourite method of execution, what with poor old Aggy being DEAD...

Well, aren't there other "Aggedors" on Peladon?

No, I think Eckersley would push for the Federation to try him.

Well, aren't there other "Aggedors" on Peladon?

Nope. They were hunted to extinction and the poor darling who died for the useless Thalira was the last one left *sob*. Unless you believe the Bride of Peladon audio, of course, in which an Aggedor was pregnant for a century or something before having some babies.

No, I think Eckersley would push for the Federation to try him.

He can push for what he wants but the Pels would be unlikely to take much notice. They were quite happy to murder the Doctor when they thought he was the Federation representative, nay, Chairperson...

So the Pels worshipped these animals, yet hunted them to the brink of extinction!? Uh, isn't this like Hindus slaughtering cattle (which are sacred to them)?

As for when Eckersley would stand trial, the Federation might insist on trying him. He was working for them, they were paying him, after all. They would probably want to try him themselves (after sacking his sorry a**).

So the Pels worshipped these animals, yet hunted them to the brink of extinction!? Uh, isn't this like Hindus slaughtering cattle (which are sacred to them)?

Yeah, it does have certain logical flaws...on the other hand, it's probably a lot easier to worship 'em when they're safely dead than when you've got the flea-ridden furry halfwits coming at you with their teeth and claws...

Donald Gee, who played Eckersley, said that his grandkids have become very popular at their school. The other kids think it's cool that their grandpa was on Doctor Who

That's rather sweet.

Especially as I'd be more likely to be stoning the grandkids for their relationship to that traitor-to-Earth...

Actually it's quite the opposite, the grandkids are always being asked for autographed photos of Mr. Gee as Eckersley.

The magic of Doctor Who continues.

Here is the web page I got the info from


http://www.recons.com/biogs/gee.htm

Well, I've given Eckersley a first name. How does Garth sound to all of you?

Garth sounds just fine. Except that, as he IS in a Peladon story, his first name is BOUND to be 'Earth'...

OK, my Bottom Ten Human Villains (on-screen Who only):

The Naismiths. Flat and pointless. Unworthy of Who villainy, let alone the Death of Tennant.

Luke Rattigan. Couldn't even keep his accent straight. Was stupid enough to trust Sontarans. Actually thought choking the human race to death and forcing a few pals onto a barren planet was more likely to get him laid than, say, taking someone to a nice restaurant. Did the self-sacrifice redemption cliche.

The Toclafane. Should have been relieved that we finally had a non-Dalek grand finale. Wasn't. Nice idea in theory - albeit one that destroyed Who's abiding optimism about humanity - but in practise they were just...floating balls. Plus that skies-made-of-diamonds kid shouldn't even have MADE it to Utopia after the Master sabotaged the ship.

Mercy Hartigan. I don't share the Doctor's belief she's the most brilliant human ever. I can't think why the Cybermen wanted her as their CyberKing. I can't believe she was taken by surprise by their treachery. I don't understand why being hailed at Court would be sufficient reward for betraying your species into slavery and death. And I don't think the hints she was raped and/or a prostitute helped, either. Oh, AND she went and did the self-sacrifice redemption cliche.

Forester. Look, I really appreciate Who doing an environmental story, but even a bad guy would probably prefer to go bankrupt rather than deliberately destroy all life on Earth.

Professor Zaroff. For the accent, lack of motivation, lack of plausibility, gross overacting, etc etc etc...(But OF COURSE I love him anyway!)

IMC. Credit where it's due, these guys certainly TRY. Destroying planets, chaining girls to bombs, terrorising people with fake monsters...but the sad fact is, they're REPEATEDLY overcome by the biggest bunch of losers in the known galaxy. (And they don't even realise their supposed monster wouldn't fit through the door. Pathetic.)

The Cavepeople. Who's first ever villains...and have you ever encountered such a dreary bunch of stupid, ungrateful, primitive, sexist gits in your LIFE? Now I come to think of it, I don't know WHY I've been holding the rock incident against the Doctor, all these years...

The Morris Dancers. First they want to burn our Doctor alive. Then they just dance round the maypole. Honestly, couldn't the Master have done a BIT better for allies?

Diagoras. Not particuarly convincing OR interesting in human-villain OR human-Dalek form.

that skies-made-of-diamonds kid shouldn't even have MADE it to Utopia after the Master sabotaged the ship.

He did? I thought they made if off all right. Sounded like it when the Doctor spoke to the pilot after twisting the twin keys.

she went and did the self-sacrifice redemption cliche.

No, she didn't. She just exploded or something when she realized she was cyberqueen.

No idea who Forester, Zaroff, or IMC are.

I think my worst villain would have to be that silly snake thing from Kinda.

Emily - IMC. Credit where it's due, these guys certainly TRY. Destroying planets
Not necessarily. Destroying colonies certainly, but would their mining practices actual destroy the planet? Some would argue it would destroy the ecosystem, but any more so than natural events like earthquakes, volcanoes or asteroids/comets striking the planet?

chaining girls to bombs, terrorising people with fake monsters...but the sad fact is, they're REPEATEDLY overcome by the biggest bunch of losers in the known galaxy.
The Doctor & Jo??? 8-O ;-)

Yeah, yeah, you're talking about the colonists, but if it wasn't for the Doctor the colonists probably would have packed up & left. Not a lot of backbone in those people.

(And they don't even realise their supposed monster wouldn't fit through the door. Pathetic.)
Your evil plans only have to be smart enough to fool your enemy. That pathetic monster ruse worked on who-knows-how-many other colony worlds. Can you blame IMC for not realizing they might run into someone with a brain?

Mandy - No idea who Forester, Zaroff, or IMC are.
Not sure about Forester (Seeds of Doom, maybe?)
Zaroff is from The Underwater Menace (2nd Doc).
IMC is the evil mining corporation that was threatening The Colony In Space (3rd Doc).

Ah. Haven't gotten to those last two yet. I only just finished the Hartnell era, or at least all I could get on Netflix. I'll start in on Troughton this weekend.

that skies-made-of-diamonds kid shouldn't even have MADE it to Utopia after the Master sabotaged the ship.

He did? I thought they made if off all right.

The ship definitely took off all right, but when he became the Master I'm sure Yana did SOMETHING to doom it, I'm not not quite sure what...Ooh! Maybe a rewatch is in order...

she went and did the self-sacrifice redemption cliche.

No, she didn't. She just exploded or something when she realized she was cyberqueen.

Ah. I kinda thought the explosion was deliberate, but now you mention it I suppose those pathetic Cybus Cybermen DO tend to involuntarily explode when confronted with emotions...I KNOW a rewatch is in order for Next Doctor but unlike Utopia I'm not exactly cracking open the champagne at the prospect.

Emily - IMC. Credit where it's due, these guys certainly TRY. Destroying planets
Not necessarily. Destroying colonies certainly, but would their mining practices actual destroy the planet? Some would argue it would destroy the ecosystem, but any more so than natural events like earthquakes, volcanoes or asteroids/comets striking the planet?

I got the strong impression that any planet IMC landed on was promptly reduced to a lifeless slagheap, but then I MIGHT be going by the novelisation rather than what we saw on-screen - it was just so much BETTER...

but the sad fact is, they're REPEATEDLY overcome by the biggest bunch of losers in the known galaxy.
The Doctor & Jo??? 8-O ;-)

How dare you say such a thing, even in jest!

Yeah, yeah, you're talking about the colonists, but if it wasn't for the Doctor the colonists probably would have packed up & left. Not a lot of backbone in those people.

Well, if you can't grow any crops you'll starve - something the colonists realised all too well (in fact, I think the Doctor's great pal Mao Tse-Tung is the only person who HASN'T grasped this fact. Unfortuante that he was in a position to make 43 million people die for this slip-up). Leaving was the only sensible option - only they couldn't cos their spaceship would explode. If IMC had had the IQ of, say, an Ogron, they'd've paid the colonists' fares to the nearest thriving colony and everyone would have been happy. (Especially the viewer, it would have shaved off several episodes.)

(And they don't even realise their supposed monster wouldn't fit through the door. Pathetic.)
Your evil plans only have to be smart enough to fool your enemy. That pathetic monster ruse worked on who-knows-how-many other colony worlds. Can you blame IMC for not realizing they might run into someone with a brain?

Ah. Good point.

Not sure about Forester (Seeds of Doom, maybe?)

Planet of Giants. The lengths he'd go to to protect his insecticide investment were somewhat...unconvincing. Not to mention unsuccessful.

I'll start in on Troughton this weekend.

You'll be FINISHED with Troughton this weekend too, when you think how many complete stories he's got left...of course, War Games DOES go on for quite a long time, and Dominators certainly FEELS as if it goes on for a long time...

I got the strong impression that any planet IMC landed on was promptly reduced to a lifeless slagheap
Life is remarkably resilient. In fact it's indomitable, Emily - indomitable! Nozzing in ze world vill stop life!

Sorry, got a bit carried away there.

However even before the discovery of Extremophiles various lifeforms showed a remarkable ability to take advantage of any number of areas that some would have considered "lifeless".

Also it's the year 2974 (or something like that) & mining processes would have to be more advanced then when the story was written.

Ironically though the planet was artificially kept lifeless by the existence of the Doomsday Weapon, so frankly IMC mining the planet really wouldn't have done any more harm to the planet & may have even helped keep people away by turning it into a "lifeless slagheap". ;-)

'You've got a lot to look forward to. A normal human life on Earth, mortgage repayments, 9 to 5, a persistent nagging sense of spiritual emptiness. Save the tears for later, boyo.'

My GOD but the Doc's got the human race down to a T, hasn't he? And to think Troughton claimed he wasn't a student of human nature! I'm suddenly realising why we produce so many megalomaniacs...

Excerpts from counselling session transcripts. Many thanks to the arch-fiends quoted for allowing us to use this material.

Channing: And then when I told him the Group Leader was the planet's ideal life form, he said it looked like a big rubber octopus. "Plastic!" I said. "It's plastic!" And then he started mucking about with the tentacles, turning the greatest defeat of the Nestene race into a sight gag...

Zaroff: Juzt vhen nuzzink in ze vureld could ztop me... zis bloody *alien* turns up!

Salamander: Nice looking chap, though...

Solon: Best head in the Universe...

Stahlman: He wouldn't let me reach Penetration Zero!

Harrison Chase: He was an animal! An *animal fiieeeeeeend*!

The master can't have destroyed the ship because they made it to Utopia where they turned themselves into the Toclaphane.

IMC couldn't pay their fee to the nearest colony because there aren't any charter flights, they're way out in the sticks and there aren't really any other colonies at this point. About 6 or so if the pre Dalek invasion colonies.

That said according to the novelisation normally noone dies and the colonists gratefully accept IMC help to move. I guess that's why the door issue hasn't come up before. Still they're obviously willing to use some ugly methods.

Excerpts from counselling session transcripts.



Big Finish ought to nick these ideas for The Companion Chronicles immediately. And after their Sara Kingdom audios, it's not as if they're in a position to care that most of 'em are dead...

The master can't have destroyed the ship because they made it to Utopia where they turned themselves into the Toclaphane.

Yeah, but what the hell WAS he doing that got his devoted Chantho so upset she was prepared to SHOOT the love of her life?

IMC couldn't pay their fee to the nearest colony because there aren't any charter flights, they're way out in the sticks

IMC must own loads of enormous ships for shipping ore back to Earth. They could make room for the colonists and drop 'em off on the nearest DECENT planet en route with large amounts of cash.

there aren't really any other colonies at this point. About 6 or so if the pre Dalek invasion colonies.

OF COURSE there are LOADS of other colonies!

There will be but Colony is very much pre empire. And this is a private colony not an official state sanctioned colony.

Yeah, but if those bunch of losers could get enough cash together for their own spaceship and planet, who couldn't? There must have been zillions of colonies out there - just look at how smooth IMC were at removing colonists. (Well, 'smooth' might be a slight exaggeration...)

Colonies of no more than 30 people for the most part looking at them. It's made clear the vast majority of the population are on Earth and a few large colonies.

Why did Count Federico go wrong? He was the PERFECT villain (it has to be said, being a Count in the Whoniverse is a pretty good indication you'll be a top-notch baddie, what with Federico, Scarlioni AND Grendel) until he totally unnecessarily blew it.

Alright, so it's puzzling that he didn't dispose of his brother earlier. Like, DECADES earlier. He was obviously slowly and successfully building himself an unassailable powerbase before pouncing on his brother and by the sound of it plenty of others. ('So many deaths in so short a time, and all so sudden' - you'd think a long-drawn out timetable of murders would be less risky.)

And OK, his insistence that that old fraud Hieronymous should tip off each victim by informing them he'd foreseen their death - accurate to the very hour - is also a little bizarre.

But Federico's attitude towards Our Hero is almost unprecedentedly wise. He knows that the Doctor's got some fascinating knowledge but he isn't gonna risk a prolonged imprisonment and interrogation to find out what it is (during which time the Doctor would inevitably escape). He's fascinated by the Doc, but - unlike Davros, Rassilon, the Dalek God-Emperor et al - not so fascinated that that he'd rather see what the Doctor does next than save his own skin. He obviously thoroughly enjoys torture ('You will breakfast on burning coals...') but he's not gonna risk, er, making sport with the Doctor's body, unlike certain religious zealots I could mention who just HAVE to kill the Doctor in the slowest imaginable manner. Nope - Federico gives the Bescarfed One a quick interrogation and then has him marched off to the headman's block, keeping a VERY sharp eye on him all the while.

And when the Doctor duly - through no fault of Federico's - scarpers, the Count isn't afraid to admit that 'Something about that Doctor disturbs me greatly.' No fatal-underestimation-of-the-Oncoming-Storm HERE. He sends all his men out on a full-scale search, complete with financial incentives ('A gold piece to the first to split him!').

And THEN he screws it all up! Suddenly the Count is imprisoning the Doctor, and announcing that 'The Duke and his troublemakers will be dead and buried before cockcrow'' (NOW, you moron! Do it NOW!) and going off for a jaunt with the Doctor with only two guards and...oh, god...'Nozzing in ze vorld'-ing (well, saying 'There is nothing now that will stop me' - TWICE. Even though he KNOWS the Brethren are on the rampage).

The theory (see Novels: New Adventures: Timewrym: Exodus) that the Doctor and/or Sexy are tweaking the villains' minds is looking increasingly plausible...

The theory (see Novels: New Adventures: Timewrym: Exodus) that the Doctor and/or Sexy are tweaking the villains' minds is looking increasingly plausible...

Well, we KNOW of at least two entities that manipulated the Doctor's and his entourage's timelines, Bad Wolf and Dalek Caan.

But it can't be the Bad Wolf - she wasn't subtle. We'd've spotted the BAD WOLF graffiti all over medieval Italy...

And I think Caan only started his manipulation after he went nuts and got stuck in the basement with Davros - it would have been INCREDIBLY difficult, and rather pointless, for him to reach back into Tom's timeline...

...ah, sorry, you mean more generally. Yes, those two ARE a possibility, as of course is the fact that someone looking suspiciously like the Eleventh Doctor HAS to get shot by Lake Silencio. It would REALLY screw things up if the Doctor died in an earlier body.

Or, of course, there's just the perfectly reasonable supposition that 'the universe itself can't bear to be without the Doctor', or whatever Emma said in Curse of Fatal Death.

(Hell, even THE MASTER said 'a cosmos without the Doctor scarcely bears thinking about', which would help explain the umpteen million times HE'S failed to off the Doc.)

'the universe itself can't bear to be without the Doctor'

Mmmm, the universe as a sentient creature? Meddling in people's lives according to its whims and desires? Sounds dangerously close to the concept of a deity.

Ok, I can't resist pointing out a nit in Curse of Fatal Death, even if it's not part of the canon. In it, the Doctor regenerates many times in quick succession. But in his post regeneration state, he should have healed any injury he suffered after the first regeneration instead of regenerating again. What happens to River in Lets Kill Hitler should dispel any doubt we might have about that.

'the universe itself can't bear to be without the Doctor'

Mmmm, the universe as a sentient creature? Meddling in people's lives according to its whims and desires? Sounds dangerously close to the concept of a deity.

Yes, alright, technically speaking it's a terrible idea, and if the universe is embodied it would be in those stupid Guardians (and I don't see the White Guardian managing to subtly keep the Doc alive behind the scenes, he needs to drain the TARDIS of power if he so much as wants to unhelpfully croak 'Beware the Black Guardian!') but...there's just something that RESONATES with me about that line.

Because honestly, what WOULD be the point of a Doctorless universe?

there's just something that RESONATES with me about that line.

Because honestly, what WOULD be the point of a Doctorless universe?

You know, I actually get that.

Shadows of Avalon:

Doctor to Compassion: 'They can teach you, human beings. They taught me everything I ever needed to know.'

Doctor to a human soldier, several weeks later: 'Sometimes I think I made a mistake giving you guys fire.'

Leaving aside minor matters like it was IAN who gave them fire, and it certainly wasn't humans who taught him how to reverse the polarity of the neutron flow...interestingly mixed messages, here.

Hand of Fear:

DOCTOR, re humanity: They're stubborn amd violent and sometimes they try to destroy things they don't understand.
ELDRAD: Then they must be taught otherwise.
DOCTOR: You wouldn't be the first one to make that mistake...others have tried.

OK, so WHO'S tried to teach humanity to be nicer and why does THE DOCTOR consider it such a mistake?

Because we don't respond well to others meddling in our business. Do so at your own (great) risk.

Oh, and lets not forget that the Doctor himself likes us stupid apes, and has seriously kicked the ass of many of those who came here to cause trouble, as the Daleks, the Sontarans, the Cybermen, the Atraxi, the Time Lords and a number of other could testify.

we don't respond well to others meddling in our business. Do so at your own (great) risk.

Yeah, but THE DOCTOR doesn't usually confuse 'risky' with 'mistaken'.

Oh, and lets not forget that the Doctor himself likes us stupid apes, and has seriously kicked the ass of many of those who came here to cause trouble, as the Daleks, the Sontarans, the Cybermen, the Atraxi, the Time Lords and a number of other could testify.

Yes, and if he'd pointedly mentioned that to Eldrad at any OTHER moment of their acquaintance I'd've considered it a VERY SENSIBLE thing to say, but in THIS case all Eldrad's doing is suggesting that humanity is taught not to be so bloody VIOLENT. Eldrad wasn't volunteering to do the job herself in a highly violent manner or anything. And I bet the Doctor wished humanity HAD been taught not to destroy things they don't understand when HE was about to get chucked out the airlock on Midnight.

Yeah, but THE DOCTOR doesn't usually confuse 'risky' with 'mistaken.

Well, the way he said it, it sounded like a warning that it typically didn't end well for those who made that mistake.

Hey! It's TOTALLY NOT OUR FAULT if the fifty million species to influence our evolution - Exxilons, Jaggaroth, Daemons, Silence, Time Lords, Fendahl, Osirians, etc etc - all happen to be a bit...extinct.

With this sort of track record, it makes you wonder what's so important about us that they keep trying, and trying, and trying.

It's almost like they imagine that Doctor Who is some kind of human-made TV programme and they're just trying to flatter us and/or get their faces on screen. Every alien invasion is basically the equivalent of someone holding up a sign reading "Hello Mum!"

Well, maybe not the Sontaran ones...

Emily, on her Top Ten Human Villains list, back in 2010:

The Inferno gang. The Brigade Leader! The Section Leader! Whatever Benton was in that universe! And Stahlman (in both universes)! For world-destroying Fascists, they're ADORABLE!

Alt-Benton's rank was Platoon Under-Leader (bit of a mouthful, as the Doctor said).

Section Leader Elizabeth Shaw started out like the others, but as the story went up, she realized that this Doctor bloke had been right all along. It was because of her shooting the Brigade-Leader that the Doctor was able to get back to Earth-Who. He, and Earth-Who, owe Section Leader Shaw (and the alt Greg Sutton and Petra Williams) their lives.

Yeah, I suppose, just for once, the villain dying redeeming herself didn't feel like a cliche.

I guess we can add Tryst and Dymond from Nightmare Of Eden here. If only they hadn't given Tryst that silly accent (the actor who played him is from Australia).

Still, Emily, I have to concede you're right about when the Doctor tells Tryst to "Go away." He totally loathes the man for what he did.

I wonder what sentence Tryst and Dymond got. Death, or a VERY long time in prison.

If only they hadn't given Tryst that silly accent (the actor who played him is from Australia).

I should clarify that I mean the accent the Tryst character had was silly, NOT that Australian accents are silly.

No offense meant, Rodney, Judi.

I wonder what sentence Tryst and Dymond got. Death, or a VERY long time in prison.

I seem to remember the comedy incompetent customs officials were VERY trigger-happy. I'm betting on shot-attempting-to-escape...

I seem to remember the comedy incompetent customs officials were VERY trigger-happy. I'm betting on shot-attempting-to-escape

Save the tax paying folks of Azure the cost for a trial.

Azure is an Earth colony world?
Would they have dominion status (cf. Frontier in Space), allowing them to try and punish their own criminals, or would Tryst and Dymond be sent to Earth for something as serious as drug smuggling?

Azure is an Earth colony world?

It's never identified as such, however, the inhabitants seem to be human, so I would say yes.


Would they have dominion status (cf. Frontier in Space), allowing them to try and punish their own criminals, or would Tryst and Dymond be sent to Earth for something as serious as drug smuggling?

Fisk and Costa mention that drug smuggling is punishable by death on Azure. That seems to indicate that Azure has the authority to punish criminals who commit crimes in their space.

Since Tryst and Dymond were committing the crime in Azure space, no doubt Azure has the right to try them for said crime.

The human antagonists of the pure historical stories, as they are at least partly based on real people and the Doctor and his companions are limited in how they can deal with them, being part of established history. The fact that they are entirely human, with no external alien influences or technology, makes them all the more scarier. A dark mirror of humanity if you will. And they have the ability to make the Doctor and his companions vanish into history, a nameless faceless statistic at best and wiped from the records at worst. Forget outer space and other planets, it's Earth's history that's the most dangerous place to be. - jbmasta on the Large Endings forums.

Since the word Ashildr means "battle goddess" it would make sense for her to be the War Minister (especially since the lake base last time had a big mural of a giant eel/sea-serpent...)

Oh! Interesting...

It'll also be something to with Davros, Missy, and/or Hybrids.

I get the feeling some people would just like to lionise Ashildr even for things she herself could have changed, or not done, but she refused. The recent "I will not change my mind." "Then you will die stupid !" exchange also comes to mind (though Ashildr cannot die... yet).

This whole "Draco-Malfoying" of Ashildr is really annoying, since though the Doctor is responsible for what initially happened to her, he's not some punching bag she can always blame for her own bull****. Despite her earlier promises that she won't be his enemy, she sold him out to The Veil. She willingly sold him out. People are forgetting that's the reason she put poor Rigsy in trouble in the first place. She wanted to nab the Doctor, throw him to the lions, and thus break her previous promise. A tenuous promise, but she at least seemed back then like she'd try to respect him, and he'd respect her in return as his neglected step-daughter of sorts.

Ashildr just loves washing her hands of her own responsibility. Robespierre nothing. She's bordering on Pilate by now. "Oops, sorry I want to sell you out, Doctor. Oops, sorry I can't save you Clara, I didn't think this through and can't change it now. Oops, sorry I scared you to death, Rigsy, I just wanted you as living bait.". The only thing still excusing her is that she's internally still something of an immature teenager (pretending otherwise). Outside of that, she's now crossed from "morally ambiguous but sympathetic gal" to straight-out "self-entitled, whiny, sociopathic sh*thead". One who also uses that age old excuse, "I was just following orders !". Yeah, because it's so necessary to have destitute refugees she was supposed to be guarding be murdered at her command (just because they couldn't afford medicine), or it's so necessary to kidnap a struggling working class guy from his young family and threaten him coldly with death. WTH, Ashildr, WTH.

Screw the Master or Rassilon at their craziest ! Ashildr is kind of worse. Worse because she isn't as crazy as them, and though she has a tough fate, she's better than this. Correction, she could be much better than this. Really hoping the Doctor carries out revenge on her - but not the kind of revenge Clara feared. Instead, he should just find something to reverse her immortality. Being mortal again might knock some sense into her. Clara only became reckless due to loss and due to being too confident during adventures. But she at least faced her mistakes, and she also very willingly payed the ultimate price. "I made a mess of things, but I'll set things right, my friends deserve it !". Ashildr, in contrast, is reckless because she basically doesn't have to worry about anything major. She'll always get away with her nonsense. Even the "Rump" guy, a supposed faithful resident of her camp, admitted that she's reckless and corrupt to a fault.

The Doctor botched his whole good deed back in that viking village in early England, and sooner or later, he'll have to face it in full. He's inadvertently created a monster in Ashildr, and something tells me she's not going to become any better or saner after all that has happened. Hence, even my (admittedly somewhat far-fetched) theory about The Veil being a far-future, scary post-human version of her, now completely taken over by a craving to take revenge on the Doctor.

People are forgetting that's the reason she put poor Rigsy in trouble in the first place.

I don't think anyone on HERE is forgetting this?

She wanted to nab the Doctor, throw him to the lions

Actually she wanted to keep her stupid street safe. Nabbing the Doctor was just a means to an end. Albeit a really stupid one. She could have gone to him for help in dealing with whoever/whatever-it-was that was threatening her. She should also know better by now than to trust such creatures to keep their word.

The Whiniest Viking would be the perfect sex slave as you could whip her repeatedly and she wouldn't die. Kinda like the fun the Master had with Captain Jack.

I guess that Hilda Winters goes here as well.

I mean the Sarah Jane Audios felt she was worth of several return appearances.

I dunno if they felt she was worth it, maybe she was the only Sarah-era villain they could AFFORD...

The Toclafane still count as human, right? I never really thought about the implications of them being written into 'Dalek' when the BBC thought they wouldn't get the rights to the Daleks. But THEY would have fought the Time War and destroyed Gallifrey/forced the Doctor to destroy Gallifrey/Oh, whatever.

Rob Shearman in The Dalek Handbook:

'The Doctor would never have known what they were. This would have provided a great mystery for him to solve later in the series, and a greater emotional angst too - why did these strangers destroy his race? Russell suggested I make my sphere mute, but I found it far too hard to sustain an entire story without it taking' - I'M NOT SURPRISED! - 'The sphere was a giggling child psychopath who delighted in sadism for its own sake. I think the script was a lot funnier, but far less moving' - DAMMIT the one thing Dalek DESPERATELY NEEDED was to be funnier!

DOCTOR: They rolled back through time, from a billion years in the future. And attacked. Every sentient species they could find, genocide on a universal scale...My people trapped them on our planet, they had to be stopped somehow. Mutually assured destruction, we sacrificed ourselves to take them out' - ••••, THAT would have been powerful. More so than the Daleks, who I've never been able to take seriously as Time War antagonists since Alien Bodies a) introduced the concept of a Time War and b) said it wasn't against anything silly like the Daleks.

Though if it WAS the Toclafane the Doctor's insistence on saving bloody Earth all the bloody time would make even LESS sense.

We need more relatable human villains to fight Jodie and less weirdies from outer-space.

However, thank God that BF has refrained from a Whiniest Viking and Buxom Bisexual Teacher boxset...

Jenna was busy playing queen Victoria. Once she's done with that, BF may give her a call.

Given Maisie's price, I wouldn't be surprised to hear Jacob Dudman as the Whiniest Viking.

The Doctor Who Ratings Guide has published my article about Eckersley:


http://www.pagefillers.com/dwrg/eckersley.htm#1

When the Doctor and Sarah Jane arrive, Eckersley got on well with both of them, particularly Sarah Jane (I know that the initial idea was for them to be romantically involved, but that got dropped).

You're joking!

Who d'they think Sarah IS, Jo Grant??

Mind you, a Companion-romance-with-the-bad-guy would probably have improved Monster, ANYTHING that reduced the amount of shameless padding would have, though the lucky guy should definitely have been an Ice Warrior not Eckersley...

Come to think of it a Sarah/Thalira relationship would have been even better...

One has every reason to believe that, had Eckersley been able to make it to his space ship, he would have let Thalira go.

I knooooooow! Poor darling Aggedor died in vain!

It's so nice that you care about the minor characters no one else does, like Vince and Eckersley and Nyssa...

Yes, according to TV Tropes, an early draft of the script and Sarah Jane and Eckersley romantically involved. But, as I said, it was cut.

However, my belief that Eckersley was made a villain at the last moment was one of the inspirations for may to write Riverworld Who Style. Said story is, in part, a redemption story for him.

Unlike Vince, however, I didn't un-kill Eckersley, rather my story starts right after he dies on Peladon.

Of course, Emily, the link to said story is still in the Ask The Moderator thread (scroll up to May 8th), if you ever get curious about it.

The Adventuress of Henrietta Street:

'The Marquis depicts Sabbath as some huge, all-pervading shadow, like one of the ogreish master-villains in the later works of the Marquis de Sade. A man whose face was rarely seen, but who lurked in dark places, as if hiding in the belly of some monstrous leviathan which moved unseen below the surface of human affairs'; 'The Doctor must have perceived this shadowy, unseen agent as some kind of monster - a brooding presence, throwing his considerable bulk up again all the old orders and factions - and if there was one thing the Doctor couldn't ignore, it was a monster'; 'The casual, confident villain waiting patiently in his lair...he'd chosen to become the spider in the centre of the web'; 'He reminds me of you' (Doctor to Master); 'It's so easy to see Sabbath as one thing or another, to perceive him as just a fanatic or just a freethinker or just a pirate or just the villain of the piece...or even on occasion psychotic (c.f. his determination, some time after 1783, to have the Doctor killed at all costs)' - Yeah, I'm beginning to see why the other EDA writers drastically misinterpreted Sabbath as the bad guy...(Also, in which EDAs did he try to kill the Doctor? All that alt-uni arc stuff is REALLY hard to retain in what's left of my memory.)

'"Oh the nature of things," the Doctor went on. "A universe without elementals. I know more than he does, but he belongs here far more than I do"' - so THIS was spelt out and yet the other writers didn't quite get it and had Sabbath blundering around destroying universes under the misapprehension they were bad or, um, something...

The Giggle: 'The human race might be clever and bright, it's also savage and venal and relentless. All the anger out there on the street, the lies, the righteousness. That's human, that's you. That's who you are. Using your intelligence to be stupid. Poisoning the world. And hating each other, you've never needed any help with that.'

Gee thanks, Doc, remind me why you're settling down with us two minutes later...