In principle, any creature that drains life force could be classed as a vampire, or at least a close metaphorical relative, which adds a few more vampiresque creatures to the list.

Is there any connection between the various types? I could easily see Fenris snatching some lesser spawn of the Great Vampires, like the Three Who Rule, and dropping them in the polluted future, as breeding stock for the haemovores, and the plasmavores might be from a planet tainted by the Great Vampire, but the rest are rather more doubtful.

Vampires are one of the classic monsters for a reason. It'd be good to see them crop up a bit more often in Doctor Who, though preferably with an science-sounding explanation rather than explicit magic.

I tend to see them more as a Time Lord enemy than the Doctor's specifically. With the TLs gone, they seem irrelevant somehow. And I think people would compare such an episode to the Venitian fish story.

In principle, any creature that drains life force could be classed as a vampire, or at least a close metaphorical relative, which adds a few more vampiresque creatures to the list.

Like who? Technically the Elders were lifeforce-drainers, but I just can't picture that bunch of boring losers as vampires, somehow.

Is there any connection between the various types? I could easily see Fenris snatching some lesser spawn of the Great Vampires, like the Three Who Rule, and dropping them in the polluted future, as breeding stock for the haemovores, and the plasmavores might be from a planet tainted by the Great Vampire, but the rest are rather more doubtful.

I don't think there's any connection, blood-sucking just seems to be a common alien type (if not NEARLY as common as looking exactly like humans). I'm not sure the Great Vampires DID create any other spawn like the Three Who Rule - I got the impression they just drained a planet dry and then moved on. The King Vampire probably only did it cos he was so seriously ill.

Mind you, I seem to remember the books (presumably Blood Harvest and Goth Opera) implied Rassilon himself might have been contaminated by a vampire...or something...

Vampires are one of the classic monsters for a reason.

Though it's increasingly difficult to remember the reason, when all vampires seem to do these days is act all angsty and get teenage girls to fall in love with them. Thank the gods Who has never gone down THAT path. (But then, the teenage girls are all busy falling in love with a certain other alien...)

I tend to see them more as a Time Lord enemy than the Doctor's specifically. With the TLs gone, they seem irrelevant somehow.

Whereas I find it incredibly hard to imagine the Time Lords going to war in the first place (at least, I did pre-End of Time. Now I just find it incredibly hard to imagine them going to war without blowing up the universe in the process).

And let's face it, if the Time Lords WERE still around it would fall to the Doc to do all the vampire-fighting ANYWAY, so frankly what's the difference?

And I think people would compare such an episode to the Venitian fish story.

Give it a year or two - and a REALLY good vampire story - and no one will give the unconvincing giant-fish-who-seem-to-look-like-vampires-because-no-human-OR-EVEN-DOCTORISH-brain-can-cope-with-the-sight-of-giant-fish-for-no-readily-apparent-reason more than a passing thought.

Emily:And let's face it, if the Time Lords WERE still around it would fall to the Doc to do all the vampire-fighting ANYWAY, so frankly what's the difference?

If Vampires are going to remain a threat-we need to make the Cushing movies canon(no one has as many unique ways to kill them as Peter Cushing)!!!!

But then I'd have to WATCH the Cushing movies and by all accounts, I shouldn't.

I have watched both of them-and I don't think that they're anywhere near as bad as Emily seems to think.

Some of the complaints about them(the Human Doctor,the Doctor inventing the Tardis,Susan naming the Tardis) are things that seemed to be true about the Hartnell Doctor-things really didn't start to change until "The War Games" where we started to find things out.

In truth I like the first movie more than I like "The Daleks". Maybe it's the way I saw it-but as a three plus hour movie it drags-badly(maybe as a seven part serial(?) it works better).

And the second "Daleks:Invasion Earth 2150A.D."-was a fun story that I still feel works(and is a fun alternate look at "The Dalek Invasion of Earth").( In truth this is what I thought I was getting when(many years ago) I tuned in WTBS to watch "Genesis of the Daleks"(not a good first story)-and was left wondering where Peter Cushing was-and who's this goofball in the scarf)-I didn't learn better until years later.

Amazing that the two races that have the most vampire like qualities, the Vampire Army and Fendahl, were supposedly destroyed by the Time Lords (who of course botched the job and the Doctor had to do it himself).

Like who? Technically the Elders were lifeforce-drainers

The Fendahl drinks life force, and can turn people into Fendahleen - not exactly like a vampire, but close enough to be a cousin, and as noted, the Time Lords took a strong dislike to both species. Magnus Greel and Lazarus both drained lifeforce, and Greel specialised in young ladies, a typical vampire preference, but that's a bit more of a stretch.

Though it's increasingly difficult to remember the reason, when all vampires seem to do these days is act all angsty and get teenage girls to fall in love with them. Thank the gods Who has never gone down THAT path.

Rose did get pretty fond of her first Dalek, and I'm sure you can find plenty of girls who are convinced that the Master is really a big softy, who wants nothing more than to settle down with them, and have dozens of children.

However, vampires done right are the ultimate evil aristocrats. They are elegant, and stylish, but they are also parasites on the peasants (humans) and like so many nobles, they love to seduce the our women, all of which could make them pretty good villains for the Doctor - and we could really do with an addition to the roster.

Has no one mentioned the Plasmavore yet? She's the only real vampire we've seen since Colin's run-in with them.

If Vampires are going to remain a threat-we need to make the Cushing movies canon(no one has as many unique ways to kill them as Peter Cushing)!!!

Seriously? I knew he was in some vampire films but - I've suddenly realised - I always subconsciously assumed that he was the vampire...

Anyway, I'd rather get eaten by Zargo than make the Cushing movies canon.

But then I'd have to WATCH the Cushing movies and by all accounts, I shouldn't.

You certainly shouldn't. But, let's face it, you're going to, sooner or later. Might as well get it over with.

Some of the complaints about them(the Human Doctor,the Doctor inventing the Tardis,Susan naming the Tardis) are things that seemed to be true about the Hartnell Doctor

They most certainly did NOT! The Doctor makes it crystal clear he's not a human and I don't remember any indications that he invented the TARDIS - in fact, wasn't the excuse given for his failure to control it that he'd lost the manual or something? (Gotta give you Susan-naming-the-TARDIS, though. God knows what THAT was about.)

In truth I like the first movie more than I like "The Daleks".

BURN THE BLASPHEMER!

And the second "Daleks:Invasion Earth 2150A.D."-was a fun story that I still feel works(and is a fun alternate look at "The Dalek Invasion of Earth").

It certainly THINKS it's fun.

It isn't.

( In truth this is what I thought I was getting when(many years ago) I tuned in WTBS to watch "Genesis of the Daleks"(not a good first story)-and was left wondering where Peter Cushing was-and who's this goofball in the scarf)-I didn't learn better until years later.

Oh dear god. How utterly different MY life might have been if I'd encountered Cushing FIRST...

The Fendahl drinks life force, and can turn people into Fendahleen - not exactly like a vampire, but close enough to be a cousin, and as noted, the Time Lords took a strong dislike to both species. Magnus Greel and Lazarus both drained lifeforce, and Greel specialised in young ladies, a typical vampire preference, but that's a bit more of a stretch.

Fair enough - let's talk Fendahl! How likely is it that our humble solar system should produce humans, Ice Warriors, Mondasians AND a being that, charmingly, IS death? Have we been wrong all these years assuming that EARTH is inexplicably special, and should we be looking at the solar system in general? (Hey - did that godawful Swarm thing evolve on Titan (or wherever it was - oh god, I'm obviously due a rewatch) or just land there?)

Rose did get pretty fond of her first Dalek

Though, in her defence, she DID tell it to top itself. (Mind you, she did that to Donna as well, it doesn't mean she doesn't LIKE you.)

and I'm sure you can find plenty of girls who are convinced that the Master is really a big softy, who wants nothing more than to settle down with them, and have dozens of children.

Yeah, that would be Lucy Saxon. At least she came to her senses...eventually. AND she didn't just shoot the Master dead, she got her family to cook up a magic potion just in case he came back, that's REAL foresight...

Has no one mentioned the Plasmavore yet? She's the only real vampire we've seen since Colin's run-in with them.

Colin had a run-in with them...?

And I DID mention the Plasmavore! I KNEW no one read my reviews/introductions...

Fair enough - let's talk Fendahl! How likely is it that our humble solar system should produce humans, Ice Warriors, Mondasians AND a being that, charmingly, IS death?

You forgot the Silurians, the Sea Devils, and the Venusians. There's also a theory that telos and its natives are part of our solar system. Clearly, it is not humble, and why should it be?

Another trait the Fendahl shares with its vampire cousins is not staying dead. All these creatures are notorious for coming back, even if you burn them to ashes and drop them in a black hole. The Great Vampire might have looked dead, but one drop of blood in the wrong place ...

Colin had a run-in with them...?

Didn't he have the last story with the Great Vampires? That's when we learned about bowships and such.

And I DID mention the Plasmavore! I KNEW no one read my reviews/introductions...

Oops, missed that, but you're right; we don't read instructions.

That was Tom Baker, not Colin.

Was it? So much for my memory. Or perhaps I'm remembering the Zagreus audio where he actually was one of the Vampires.

You forgot the Silurians, the Sea Devils, and the Venusians.

Well, I was talking about non-Earth planets producing intelligent life, that's why I didn't mention Silurians and Sea Devils. (Well, alright...that and the fact I totally forgot about them. Well, it's not as if their last couple of stories were exactly MEMORABLE...)

Venusians did cross my mind but then I thought 'Nah, they're just in that Venusian Lullaby MA, it's not canon any more' - completely forgetting about the REAL Venusian Lullaby with the immortal line 'Close your eyes my pretty darling - well, three of them at least'.

There's also a theory that telos and its natives are part of our solar system.

What kind of stupid theory is THAT?

Another trait the Fendahl shares with its vampire cousins is not staying dead. All these creatures are notorious for coming back, even if you burn them to ashes and drop them in a black hole.

Though the Doctor seems to think a supernova would do for the Fendahl. Anyway, this is Who - loads of non-vampires from Davros to Cassandra to the Master just keep coming back from the dead...

That was Tom Baker, not Colin.

Was it? So much for my memory. Or perhaps I'm remembering the Zagreus audio where he actually was one of the Vampires.

Of course! THAT would be it! You were thinking of Zagreus! You can't POSSIBLY have confused TOM with COLIN, it's a capital offence...

<i>What kind of stupid theory is THAT? <i/>

From 'About Time'. Telos would be another name for planet 14, somewhere out on the edge of teh solar system.

the Doctor seems to think a supernova would do for the Fendahl

Anything that can recover after spending 12 million years as a skull is pretty good at cheating death. It's not just vampires that do this, true, but at least they have a decent excuse, unlike the Master.

I suspect something along these lines as at the back of the Virgin NA writer's mind when they came up with the part-vampire Rassilon theory. Timelords and vampires both routinely cheat death, so Time Lords must be part vampire, which makes a sort of sense for the Master and Rassilon (who spent ages sleeping in his tomb) but not for the Doctor.

From 'About Time'. Telos would be another name for planet 14, somewhere out on the edge of teh solar system.

Ah, that is jogging dim memories...STUPID theory, Mondas can wander anywhere, it doesn't have to stick to the solar system, and anyway...Planet 14? What are planets 11, 12 and 13?

'I wish Abraham were here, he'd know what to do. Old Bram was the greatest authority on these matters outside Gallifrey. To think he wasted it on that dreadful book' - Project: Twilight. So how exactly DID 'Old Bram' become the greatest authority on vampires outside Gallifrey? And IS there anyone on Gallifrey who knows a thing about vampires anyway? Or has the knowledge fallen into as much disuse as the knowledge of the Eye of Harmony?

.Planet 14? What are planets 11, 12 and 13?

Well, planet 11 would be Pluto. Mondas is planet four and the Fendahl came from planet six, sometimes misleadingly called planet five. Planets 12 and 13 would be the lumps of ice bigger than Pluto we've spotted - if Pluto is a planet, everything bigger than it should count too.

Mondas can wander anywhere, of course, but ours is obviously the most desirable solar system in the galaxy. It would make sense if Mondas chose to hang around the Oort cloud sulking for a few thousand years, because its twin planet was getting all the attention - well, more sense than it zooming off to the edge of the universe on a whim anyway.

Still while our entire solar system is special, Earth is clearly its jewel. The Fendahl chose our planet for its new home, not Mondas, which presumably means the Mondasians never had our nasty inclinations, neatly explaining how they beat us to civilisation without Daemons, Osirians, and Exxilons giving them an helping hand: they didn't waste time fighting wars.

So how exactly DID 'Old Bram' become the greatest authority on vampires outside Gallifrey

Field experience? Gallifrey may have historians specialising in its ancient history, including vampires, but they just read books written by earlier historians who based their own research on their own predecessors. Checking the primary sources would be unthinkably vulgar, and anyway, no one remembers where they were filed.

Bram, on the other hand, interviewed people who'd actually met vampires. There are limits to what he could learn that way - none of his interviewees would have known about the great war with the Time Lords for a start - but he could easily have learnt much.

This does raise the question of why no other alien scholar did the same thing, but the Doctor may have just meant the great authority he knew about. Davros's father might have been twice as expert as Bram, but the Doctor never got a chance to read any of his books.

Emily - You can't POSSIBLY have confused TOM with COLIN, it's a capital offence...

Yes, Emily will push you in an acid bath, then quip, "You'll forgive me if I don't join you!" ;-)

Robert - Well, planet 11 would be Pluto. Mondas is planet four and the Fendahl came from planet six, sometimes misleadingly called planet five. Planets 12 and 13 would be the lumps of ice bigger than Pluto we've spotted - if Pluto is a planet, everything bigger than it should count too.

At the time of The Tenth Planet (both internal & broadcast) Pluto was officially the Ninth Planet. Mondas would be considered the Tenth Planet, hence the title.

Of course, in 2006 Pluto was demoted from a Planet to Dwarf Planet. Presumably the Whoniverse had a similar ruling, but since Mondas had been destroyed 20 years earlier, I doubt any Whoniverse astronomers bothered recounting Mondas as Planet Nine.

The Fendahl came from the planet that is now the Asteroid Belt which is between Mars (Planet Four) & Jupiter (Planet Five) so at best it might be considered Planet Five, but since it's no longer a planet it would just remain the Asteroid Belt (or possibly, though highly unlikely, Dwarf Planet One, since there is not enough material to make a decent size planet.)

Mondas was the tenth planet found, but that doesn't make it planet ten. The planets are numbered from the sun outwards, so depending on whether dwarf planets count and how many there are it could be anything from number nine to number 317. It used to be number four though, before it went zooming off.

The original configuration of the planets, before any artificial intervention seems to have been Mercury, Venus, Earth + Mondas, Mars, the Fendahl world, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and then some dwarf planets, of which Telos could easily be one.

Anyway, planet 14 was called that by the cybermen, so the question is how they'd count the planets. They'd definitely include Mondas, and they might have worked out there used to be a planet in the asteroid belt, but until what they'd think about Pluto we can only guess. There's also the question of Vulcan. Was 'Power of the Daleks' in our solar system or not? The writer may well have intended it to be, despite the implausibility.

And, of course, almost all the inhabited planets had legends about vampires, according to the Doctor. The Silurians, the Venusians and the Mondasians all shared the same myths, which raises the question of if they had the real thing. Imagine a vampire Silurian.

The planets are numbered from the sun outwards

The planets with stable orbits. To a 1986 astronomer Mondas was a rogue planet from outside the solar system that went boom shortly afterwards. The only evidence that it was once a part of our solar system was the claim of an old geezer at a top secret base in Antarctica & it's unlikely that this was reported to any astronomical group.

Then again, people on Who-Earth seem to have forgotten all about Mondas & the Cyberinvasion, soooo...

On the other hand, the Sailor Moon series must be much more interesting in the Whoniverse. "Sailor Mondas, Sailor Fendahlus, get them!" ;-)

As for Planet 14, that could simply refer to the 14th planet conquered by the Cybermen & not be a part of our solar system. Which I think makes more sense.

The writer may well have intended it to be

What the author may or may not have intended, while potentially interesting, is unimportant. We nitpick what is in the story, not the intent. Or as the Chief puts it, "I'm a Nitpicker, I don't deal with reality." ;-)

Imagine a vampire Silurian.

Given their ability to dissolve & rebuild walls & control dinosaurs... YIKES! 8-o

Emily:Seriously? I knew he was in some vampire films but - I've suddenly realised - I always subconsciously assumed that he was the vampire...

I'm sorry Emily-but Hammer films had a number of Dracula films where vampire hunter Cushing(often named Van Helsing) would face off with vampire Dracula(often played by Chris Lee)--it kept the studio going for years.

Emily:They most certainly did NOT! The Doctor makes it crystal clear he's not a human and I don't remember any indications that he invented the TARDIS - in fact, wasn't the excuse given for his failure to control it that he'd lost the manual or something? (Gotta give you Susan-naming-the-TARDIS, though. God knows what THAT was about.)

I'm sorry Emily-I don't think he does.

What he said was that he was an exile from his homeworld/time and that he was a wanderer in time and space, not that he wasn't human(even though Leela is born on a future Earth colony she is still human).

Also remember that the first two Doctors(Hartnell and Troughton) always tested as human-it wasn't until Pertwee that thing started getting strange(with two heartbeats suddenly there). I have no problem with the movie-makers seeing this as meaning ther're from a future Earth colony.

As to the Tardis-maybe the filmmakers didn't want our hero stealing his ship(just a thought).

Me:In truth I like the first movie more than I like "The Daleks".

Emily:BURN THE BLASPHEMER!

I stand by what I said-when watched as a single movie-The Daleks moves slowly and drags badly-it might be better if seen as it was meant(7 23 minute episodes)-but the movie works better for me.

Emily:It certainly THINKS it's fun.

It isn't.

And I think it is-I doubt we'll agree on this one.

Emilyh dear god. How utterly different MY life might have been if I'd encountered Cushing FIRST...

I'll give you that one-the first place I ever heard of Who was(I think it was late 60's-early 70's) in a magazine called "Famous Monsters of Filmland(I think)--which had a story on the Cushing movies. I didn't hear about the show for more than a decade(and I bought the magazine for it's article on Godzilla v.s. the Thing).

Not sure:The planets are numbered from the sun outwards

For the most part that's true-although IIRC Pluto os currantly closer to the sun than Neptune-and will be for a fair number of years.

Also important is the question-what is a planet??

There ate several possible objects in the Solar System which cound be listed as planets(some see the Earth and the Moon as being a twin planet, some of your larger asteroides(Ceres comes right to mind)-if I remember correctly if they had used one set of rules we'd hav something like 16 planets now.

As it worked though-they went consercative-downgraded Pluto-and left us at 8(I think it had something yo do with the shape of the orbit).

As for the future-your guess is as good as mine!!!

OH FRAK!!! I hate it when I get a where it doesn't belong!!!!

It would make sense if Mondas chose to hang around the Oort cloud sulking for a few thousand years, because its twin planet was getting all the attention

Except that there's simply NO WAY the Cybermen - or ANY aliens - could hang around THAT close to Earth for THAT long without invading it. Repeatedly. It would be like waving a vodka bottle under an alcoholic's nose.

Still while our entire solar system is special, Earth is clearly its jewel.

Tell that to the gits in the year five billion slash apple slash something who couldn't be bothered to cough up a few quid to KEEP said jewel.

The Fendahl chose our planet for its new home, not Mondas, which presumably means the Mondasians never had our nasty inclinations

Ah, but DID we have all those nasty inclinations before the Fendahl skull infected us...?

And didn't the skull try out Mars as a new home first?

neatly explaining how they beat us to civilisation without Daemons, Osirians, and Exxilons giving them an helping hand: they didn't waste time fighting wars.

Ooh, nice theory. Though of course there's the alternative theory, that war accelerates technical and artistic advances. You know, that (admittedly inaccurate) saying about the Swiss having five hundred years of peace and democracy and producing the cuckoo clock...

So how exactly DID 'Old Bram' become the greatest authority on vampires outside Gallifrey

Field experience?

So what were all those vampires doing on Earth? How many varieties of the beasties have we harboured? If they're the Ultimate Enemy as far as Time Lords are concerned, why didn't they take more of an interest instead of leaving it all to Bram Stoker? If vampires are so dangerous how come he survived them?

Bram, on the other hand, interviewed people who'd actually met vampires. There are limits to what he could learn that way - none of his interviewees would have known about the great war with the Time Lords for a start - but he could easily have learnt much.

Pah. Earthlings can't even tell the difference between a vampire and a GIANT FISH.

Davros's father might have been twice as expert as Bram, but the Doctor never got a chance to read any of his books.

Well, if so, he forgot to tell his son about the whole 'life on other planets' thing...

You can't POSSIBLY have confused TOM with COLIN, it's a capital offence...

Yes, Emily will push you in an acid bath, then quip, "You'll forgive me if I don't join you!" ;-)

*Snorts* I'm sure I'll think of something MUCH more witty than THAT to say after I push Mandy into the acid bath.

Mondas was the tenth planet found, but that doesn't make it planet ten. The planets are numbered from the sun outwards, so depending on whether dwarf planets count and how many there are it could be anything from number nine to number 317.

Blimey. I'm starting to think To The Slaughter - the EDA in which some so-called artiste attempts to feng shui the solar system by blowing up rather a lot of it - wasn't such a stupid idea after all.

And, of course, almost all the inhabited planets had legends about vampires, according to the Doctor. The Silurians, the Venusians and the Mondasians all shared the same myths, which raises the question of if they had the real thing. Imagine a vampire Silurian.

I think it's more likely that the initial War rippled across the cosmos and into a LOT of races' subconsiousnesses. Or something.

On the other hand, the Sailor Moon series must be much more interesting in the Whoniverse. "Sailor Mondas, Sailor Fendahlus, get them!" ;-)

Uh?

As for Planet 14, that could simply refer to the 14th planet conquered by the Cybermen & not be a part of our solar system. Which I think makes more sense.

Me too. I can just see the Cybermen invading their way across the cosmos with their depressingly logical numbering system. Plus I've taken a look at that About Time essay and its claim that the Cybermen are 'clod-hopping' as far as space-travel is concerned is somewhat undermined by the fact that in Wheel in Space they 'supposedly have the ability to skip between galaxies in the blink of an eye'. (About Time's attempt to wriggle out of this by saying 'we have to assume that this is simply because David Whitaker doesn't really know what a galaxy is' is no doubt true but utterly irrelevant.)

What he said was that he was an exile from his homeworld/time and that he was a wanderer in time and space, not that he wasn't human

Didn't he say 'We are not of this race' as well as 'we are not of this Earth'? SURELY that means he's not human?

Also remember that the first two Doctors(Hartnell and Troughton) always tested as human-it wasn't until Pertwee that thing started getting strange

That's uncomfortably true, but luckily humans don't tend to live to 450 or change their faces...

As to the Tardis-maybe the filmmakers didn't want our hero stealing his ship(just a thought).

Yeah, even the new series waited four years to break THAT particular piece of news...

I stand by what I said-when watched as a single movie-The Daleks moves slowly and drags badly-it might be better if seen as it was meant(7 23 minute episodes)-but the movie works better for me.

OF COURSE The (proper!) Daleks drags like it has two broken legs, but that doesn't make the movie BETTER! It's an ABOMINATION! (Sadly I can't insult it any more specifically than that since I've spent several decades avoiding a rewatch.)

OH FRAK!!! I hate it when I get a :-) where it doesn't belong!!!!

You want me to edit them out for you? In fact, how do people feel in general about me altering minor mistakes I happen to spot? (I mean, minor typo mistakes. Not minor favourite-Doctor type mistakes.)

On the other hand, the Sailor Moon series must be much more interesting in the Whoniverse. "Sailor Mondas, Sailor Fendahlus, get them!" ;-)

Uh?

Japanese series (comics, cartoon, live action) about a reincarnated princess (Sailor Moon) from a far distant past & her companions are named after the different planets (Sailor Mercury, Sailor Venus, Sailor Mars, etc., etc.) so presumably Mondas & the Fendahl planet would also be represented.

To a 1986 astronomer Mondas was a rogue planet from outside the solar system that went boom shortly afterwards.

But they weren't the people who numbered planet 14; that was the cybermen. The only thing we can be certain of is that they didn't call Mondas the tenth planet.

Except that there's simply NO WAY the Cybermen - or ANY aliens - could hang around THAT close to Earth for THAT long without invading it

The ice warriors did. For the last fifty years, they've been sitting on Mars, watching their neighbouring planet get invaded monthly, without once having a go themselves.

Ah, but DID we have all those nasty inclinations before the Fendahl skull infected us...? And didn't the skull try out Mars as a new home first?

The impression I got was that it drained Mars to fill up its energy reserves, but had already picked Earth as the most attractive hibernation spot.

The Doctor seemed happy to blame all our nasty inclinations of the Fendahl, but I suppose that might just have been him making excuses for his favourite species.

So what were all those vampires doing on Earth? How many varieties of the beasties have we harboured?

Vampires, of all kinds, are attracted to the Earth for the same reason as all the other aliens, whatever that is - though I'm sure it's not the Doctor's fault. Thus would give Bram plenty of chances to collect second-hand accounts, without once seeing a vampire himself.

The Time Lords are too complacent to go hunting vampires. They'd rather sit safely on Gallifrey, contemplating their magnificence, and trust that the Matrix will alert them to any threat, as it did with the Daleks. This is fortunate, since if the Time Lords had noticed the Haemovores, thye'd have probably dealt with them the same way as the Fendahl - destroy the planet, leaving only rubble.

reincarnated princess (Sailor Moon) from a far distant past & her companions are named after the different planets (Sailor Mercury, Sailor Venus, Sailor Mars, etc., etc.)

Except for Earth, which for some reason is represented by a medical student in a top hat who throws roses. Apparently, every planet in that universe has a magical champion like this, not just the ones in this solar system. That would include Gallifrey, and Skaro, making the last Great Time War even more colourful.

Earthlings can't even tell the difference between a vampire and a GIANT FISH.

Would the sensorites do any better, or the dulcians?

If most planets just have legends of vampires, and only a few are cursed with the real thing, the Earth naturally having the greatest variety, then Earthlings are going to end up the best informed, outside Gallifrey, being the only ones with actual field experience.

If, on the other hand, the Great Vampires spread their taint across the cosmos, condemning every planet to acquire its own variety of bloodsucker, then we're faced with the prospect of vampire Sontarans, Ood, Slitheen, etc.

On the whole, I think it's better if Emily is right about the initial War rippling across the cosmos and into a LOT of races' subconsciousnesses.

But they weren't the people who numbered planet 14; that was the cybermen. The only thing we can be certain of is that they didn't call Mondas the tenth planet.

Oh, you were looking at it from the CyberPOV. D'oh! My bad.

The ice warriors did. For the last fifty years, they've been sitting on Mars, watching their neighbouring planet get invaded monthly, without once having a go themselves.

Would you want to take over a planet that gets invaded that often? ;-)
"That ugly blue planet's getting invaded again."
"Well, at least, it's not our planet getting invaded!"

Actually the Ice Warriors left Mars thousands of years ago and relocated to another planet in another solar system, New Mars.

The Doctor seemed happy to blame all our nasty inclinations of the Fendahl, but I suppose that might just have been him making excuses for his favourite species.

Now you mention it...whenever he's raging against humans ('I sometimes wonder why I like the people of this miserable planet so much'; 'Nobody human has anything to say to me today' etc etc) why doesn't he ever admit IT'S NOT OUR FAULT it's that wretched Fendahl?

The Time Lords are too complacent to go hunting vampires. They'd rather sit safely on Gallifrey, contemplating their magnificence, and trust that the Matrix will alert them to any threat, as it did with the Daleks. This is fortunate, since if the Time Lords had noticed the Haemovores, thye'd have probably dealt with them the same way as the Fendahl - destroy the planet, leaving only rubble.

Huh. They could have TRIED, but they'd only have stumbled over their own feet...AND the Doctor...

Earthlings can't even tell the difference between a vampire and a GIANT FISH.

Would the sensorites do any better

Alright, so unless there was a special I'M A VAMPIRE-SENSORITE sash, the Sensorites would almost certainly not do any better...

Actually the Ice Warriors left Mars thousands of years ago and relocated to another planet in another solar system, New Mars.

Yeah - that's what the TV implies and the audios state. Of course, the New Adventures claimed they're still on Mars and we're about to have a Ten-Thousand Day War with them, but what the hell.

Of course, the New Adventures claimed they're still on Mars and we're about to have a Ten-Thousand Day War with them, but what the hell

Since the novels are no longer canon, this has been invalidated.

But the very things that made the novels non-canon - the rewriting of Human Nature, What I Did in My Summer Holidays by Sally Sparrow etc - are the very things that PROVE the novels (and audios) were onto SOMETHING. An echo...a dream...a potential future...a rewritten past...an alternative universe...a Valeyard-twisted Matrix projection...whatever it is, they can't just be dismissed out of hand. (Well, I would say that, wouldn't I. That would be several years of my life down the drain.) So IF New Who hasn't directly contradicted a certain Expanded Universe 'fact' I think we can still mention it, cautiously, as possible supporting evidence...

they can't just be dismissed out of hand

Oh yes, they can! Completely and utterly discarded as the gap-filling tripe they were.

In fact, how do people feel in general about me altering minor mistakes I happen to spot?

That could be tricky. There are different rules for spelling and punctuation between countries.

Emily:In fact, how do people feel in general about me altering minor mistakes I happen to spot?

While I thank you for your kind offer--I'll have to say no thenk you.

Although I will admit to feeling foolish when I find a silly mistake on my part--I also feel that if I'm going to learn here, then I have to see my mistakes and come to deal with them.

I can also see the correcting of errors leading to a place where we don't want to go.

Emily:Didn't he say 'We are not of this race' as well as 'we are not of this Earth'? SURELY that means he's not human?

One can be both "not of this Earth" and human at the same time--you only need to be born elsewhere(see Leela).

And the first part-I thought he was trying to weaken the ties between Susan and Earth.

Emily:That's uncomfortably true, but luckily humans don't tend to live to 450 or change their faces...

Who knows how long a human on a distant planet in the distant future will live(look how life expectancies have gone up in the last few centuries),

And the first two Doctors didn't change their faces.

The change from Hartnell to Troughton was clearly stated to be something the Tardis did-and it was never said it couldn't be done for anyone.

As for Troughton to Pertwee-it was the Time Lords who changed his face,not something he did.

It wasn't until later that Time Lords became their own unique species.

By the way-I'm sorry about the many short posts--I think my computer picked up a virus(I think it's from my anti-virus service)-and has been crashing at random times--I find short posts easier to get finished while still up.

[The books] can't just be dismissed out of hand

Oh yes, they can! Completely and utterly discarded as the gap-filling tripe they were.

So how do you explain how the Human Nature book came so INCREDIBLY close to the Truth...coincidence...?

I can also see the correcting of errors leading to a place where we don't want to go.

Hey - I wasn't planning on correcting any accidental 'Colin Baker is a good Doctor's to 'Tom's...but no problem, I'll keep my hands off everyone else's typos unless specifically requested to correct something.

One can be both "not of this Earth" and human at the same time--you only need to be born elsewhere(see Leela).

But when you add in the fact the Doctor said 'We are not of this RACE' you get a clear picture that, well, he's not of this race. Unless he's taking a Cassandra-like approach to what it means to be a pure-blood human...

And the first part-I thought he was trying to weaken the ties between Susan and Earth.

He'd've done better to remind her of her spiteful sniggering schoolmates, the boring, moronic subjects, the nosy-parker teachers and the fact she didn't even know what a shilling was...

And the first two Doctors didn't change their faces.

The change from Hartnell to Troughton was clearly stated to be something the Tardis did-

Well, that's what Troughton CLAIMED. And sure, the Old Girl lent a hand, what with the Doc being new to all this. But I suspect that regeneration was considered some disgusting biological function like dying or going to the loo or something that you just didn't mention in polite company (or even Ben and Polly's company). No wonder he wasn't very forthcoming about it.

As for Troughton to Pertwee-it was the Time Lords who changed his face,not something he did.

It was an EXECUTION. But you can't possibly have expected the Time Lords to ADMIT as much.

It wasn't until later that Time Lords became their own unique species.

I'd say they were their own unique species in War Games more than they've ever been since.

So how do you explain how the Human Nature book came so INCREDIBLY close to the Truth...coincidence...?

Absolutely. Besides, no reason to let all that fiction go to waste; there are bound to be SOME good ideas in there.

novels (and audios) were onto SOMETHING. An echo...a dream...a potential future...a rewritten past..

I'd say a rewritten past, courtesy of the Last Great Time War. The books happened, including the time war in them, but that time war threw all history into flux, changing even the Doctor's own past. Where once Four went to Shada, now it is and always was Eight who did that.

On the other hand I'd say--While the books of the EU(Expanded Universe) vary in quality(from a fun read to very painful)-they are not,and never will be canon. If you want-read them for fun-just don't rely on them.

Emily:So how do you explain how the Human Nature book came so INCREDIBLY close to the Truth...coincidence...?

Sounds good to me....

Emily:But when you add in the fact the Doctor said 'We are not of this RACE' you get a clear picture that, well, he's not of this race. Unless he's taking a Cassandra-like approach to what it means to be a pure-blood human...

It is possible-they may even call themselves "Homo Superior".

Who knows-they may even count Leela as alien.

Emily:He'd've done better to remind her of her spiteful sniggering schoolmates, the boring, moronic subjects, the nosy-parker teachers and the fact she didn't even know what a shilling was...

Yes, remind her of what she seems to like about Earth--how normal and dull it can be.

Emily:Well, that's what Troughton CLAIMED. And sure, the Old Girl lent a hand, what with the Doc being new to all this. But I suspect that regeneration was considered some disgusting biological function like dying or going to the loo or something that you just didn't mention in polite company (or even Ben and Polly's company). No wonder he wasn't very forthcoming about it.

First off-I think you're letting your feelings blind you to the facts--later Doctors seem to look at it as natural-not needing to be explaned except when needed(like breathing,or a heartbeat).

And as Troughton knows more about what happened there than you or I ever will--I treat that as expert testimony(?).

Emily:It was an EXECUTION. But you can't possibly have expected the Time Lords to ADMIT as much.

Where do you get this one???

The Time Lords are known for wiping out whole species without second thought. Even at their nadir during "The Last Great Time War"-whole species were wiped out as collateral damage. It was so bad the Doctor had to step in to stop them.

And about executions--since Four,Five and Six were all put on trial at different time-with death being the likely verdict, I see them having no problem in admitting it.

Emily:I'd say they were their own unique species in War Games more than they've ever been since.

I'd say unique culture-not species.

Me:While I thank you for your kind offer--I'll have to say no thenk you.

I can't believe that I did that--I know, maybe if I put in some smileys they'll all think I meant it as a joke.

Is there actually some thesis afoot that Time Lords aren't a different species? What level of blindness leads to that conclusion?

I'd say a rewritten past, courtesy of the Last Great Time War. The books happened, including the time war in them, but that time war threw all history into flux, changing even the Doctor's own past. Where once Four went to Shada, now it is and always was Eight who did that.

That makes a lot more logical sense than this 'Oh, it's a complete coincidence that a book happened to mention the Doctor turning himself human and teaching at a boys' school in the 1910s and falling in love with a colleague called Joan while aliens hunted for his Time Lord essence'...on the other hand, it would (however temporarily) canonise the likes of Rags and King of Terror and that's simply NOT ON. So I'm thinking that SOME of the authors were subconsciously tuned into Matrix projections - the way all the TV writers so obviously are - whereas SOME just...make all this stuff up and trick the BBC into publishing it along with The Truth.

Emily:He'd've done better to remind her of her spiteful sniggering schoolmates, the boring, moronic subjects, the nosy-parker teachers and the fact she didn't even know what a shilling was...

Yes, remind her of what she seems to like about Earth--how normal and dull it can be.

She didn't look like she was enjoying being laughed at by the whole class or lectured by Ian, though. (Which begs the question of exactly what Susan DID like about 1960s London schooling. There's an entire book on this subject - Time and Relative - that left me none the wiser.)

later Doctors seem to look at [regeneration] as natural-not needing to be explaned except when needed(like breathing,or a heartbeat).

But they know perfectly well it's not natural as far as their human Companions are concerned! And I'm deeply suspicious of why the Ninth Doctor didn't share this intimate fact of his life with the woman he loved. Or why - AFTER he'd traumatised Rose for life by not mentioning it - Ten kept it secret from Martha until he was convinced the sun-monster would kill him, AND from Donna until he was actually regenerating. (OK, Eleven's obviously more forthcoming, what with headbutting any old stranger with telepathic info-dumps about his entire lives.)

And as Troughton knows more about what happened there than you or I ever will--I treat that as expert testimony(?).

So he used the word 'renewed' instead of 'regenerated'. Big deal!

Emily:It was an EXECUTION. But you can't possibly have expected the Time Lords to ADMIT as much.

Where do you get this one???

The Time Lords are known for wiping out whole species without second thought. Even at their nadir during "The Last Great Time War"-whole species were wiped out as collateral damage.

Well, exactly. They'd've used phrases like 'collateral damage' or 'unfortunately got to relocate Ravalox' or 'Your appearance has changed before, it will change again' rather than words like GENOCIDE or EXECUTION. (I mean, Rassilon was wiping out the whole of creation and unlike Davros he didn't even have the decency to GLOAT about it. A little light 'Bwahaha'-ing would at least have meant he'd NOTICED all those other species.)

And about executions--since Four,Five and Six were all put on trial at different time-with death being the likely verdict, I see them having no problem in admitting it.

Yeah, alright, in SOME periods of history the Time Lords have thrown around words like 'vaporisation', 'pain settings', 'mind probe' etc with reckless abandon, but in War Games they were glowing-eyed otherworldly beings who liked to think of themselves as above such things. They were certainly above remembering to lock the Doctor's cell door...

Is there actually some thesis afoot that Time Lords aren't a different species? What level of blindness leads to that conclusion?

I think Jep's just invented such a thesis, yes...

on the other hand, it would (however temporarily) canonise the likes of Rags and King of Terror and that's simply NOT ON.

They're just as canonical as Dimensions in Time. All three incidents, and certain others, are clearly attempts to pervert the Doctor's time line, to the point where he either is reduced to a pathetic caricature of himself or commits suicide out of shame, much as happened in Quantum Archangel. Of course, in that case, they explained it was just a symptom of timelines being eaten by a chronovore, but once you know it can happen, you hardly need the explanation spelling out every single time.

Since there were doubtless whole flocks of chronovores feeding on the debris of the time war, the Doctor probably encountered thousands of nightmare scenarios before the damaged timelines were devoured, making it so that they now never happened.

Getting back to vampires, the traditional question when you've got half a dozen varieties is how they rank up, as villains, or in a fight. Either way, the Dracula robot is at the bottom of the list and the Great Vampire at the top, but the position of the others is more debatable.

Emily:I think Jep's just invented such a thesis, yes...

And I think you're putting words in my mouth--

My premise was:that taken in themselves the Hartnell Doctor,and the Doctor played by Cushing are very similar(more alike than the Hartnell Doctor and any of the other tv Doctors).

The simple fact is that the writers for both of the first two Doctors(Hartnell and Troughton) saw them as human(clearly stated in "The War Machines" ). It was not until "The War Games" that we even heard the term "Time Lord", and later that they evolved into rather bizarre aliens.

On the other hand--both New Who and Old Who support the concept that humans and Time Lords are closely linked genetically(with New Who dropping hint that might be humans that have either evolved or been altered over time).

If this is the case-it explains many of the un-answered questions of Who.

(Minor thought:if the Cushing films were made today--he might be called a Time Lord).

They're just as canonical as Dimensions in Time.

Exactly! I.e. as totally uncanonical as...as...STAR TREK!

All three incidents, and certain others, are clearly attempts to pervert the Doctor's time line, to the point where he either is reduced to a pathetic caricature of himself or commits suicide out of shame, much as happened in Quantum Archangel.

Blimey - is THAT what happened in Quantum Archangel? It's VERY high up on my list of Books That Are Canonical Over My Dead Body, but I can (mercifully) never quite remember WHY.

Since there were doubtless whole flocks of chronovores feeding on the debris of the time war, the Doctor probably encountered thousands of nightmare scenarios before the damaged timelines were devoured, making it so that they now never happened.

Fair enough. I mean, now half of Season 6/31 itself never existed, at least as we saw it, cos the Cracks never existed (or something)...

Getting back to vampires, the traditional question when you've got half a dozen varieties is how they rank up, as villains, or in a fight. Either way, the Dracula robot is at the bottom of the list and the Great Vampire at the top, but the position of the others is more debatable.

I'm not even convinced about your choice of top and bottom Vampire. I mean, the Great Vampire SOUNDS like the Ultimate Evil, but...have you SEEN him?! And that robot Dracula was a bloody stupid idea but it took a Dalek extermination without batting an eyelid. (Even Doctors Ten and Eleven at least have the decency to PRETEND to be regenerating and/or dead whenever THEY get exterminated.)

So...let's see:

1. Fendahl - Death Itself and all that.

2. The Three Who Rule. On account of Zargo's beard, if nothing else.

3. Florence. I mean, that straw is SERIOUSLY creepy. And there aren't many other villains the Doctor is so scared of he thinks the only way to deal with 'em is to let them drain him of blood.

4. Great Vampire. On account of his reputation, NOT on account of snoozing for a thousand years before waking up, waving a claw around and getting hit by a rather large stake.

5. Haemovores. Scary.

6. Magnus Greel. Didn't he start a World War (or was that Mr Sin all on his own)?

7. Saturnynes. They seem a bit confused. Over whether half a dozen brides are enough for 10,000 males, for starters. Plus, no decent villain tops themselves in a fit of pique.

8. Lazarus. Boooooring.

9. The robot Dracula.

10. The Elders. LOSERS!

My premise was:that taken in themselves the Hartnell Doctor,and the Doctor played by Cushing are very similar(more alike than the Hartnell Doctor and any of the other tv Doctors).

Urk. You have a point. I'm just not ready to ACCEPT it.

The simple fact is that the writers for both of the first two Doctors(Hartnell and Troughton) saw them as human(clearly stated in "The War Machines" ).

Only WOTAN thought the Doctor was human. Correction: Only WOTAN thought DOCTOR WHO was human.

Admittedly it's a bit odd that a medical examination in Wheel in Space failed to notice Troughton having two hearts...

It was not until "The War Games" that we even heard the term "Time Lord", and later that they evolved into rather bizarre aliens.

In what way were later Time Lords more bizarre than the War Games ones? At least THEIR eyes didn't glow...

On the other hand--both New Who and Old Who support the concept that humans and Time Lords are closely linked genetically(with New Who dropping hint that might be humans that have either evolved or been altered over time).

What! Where does New Who hint that?

And they're not exactly THAT close, genetically. Not if having a Time Lord mind is gonna blow a mere human brain to smithereens.

And if anything the Old Who Docs were more human - none of THEM claimed to be seeing the whole of space and time all the time.

(Minor thought:if the Cushing films were made today--he might be called a Time Lord).

Maybe. Maybe not. I mean, the telemovie couldn't quite cope with a Time Lord Doctor, after all...

Emily: Only WOTAN thought the Doctor was human. Correction: Only WOTAN thought DOCTOR WHO was human.

You've got me on that one-after watching 3 seasons of a show called "Doctor Who" starring a character,known for his brain-power, called "The Doctor"-watching as he goes in and stirs up trouble. Time for Wotan(a super-smart computer)-to call for the head of a unknown human(never mentioned before or since)-named "Doctor Who".

RIIIIIGHT!!!!!!

Emily:In what way were later Time Lords more bizarre than the War Games ones? At least THEIR eyes didn't glow...

Glowing eyes is nothing-it'e used to show increased mental powers(Star Trek TOS used that trick more than once).

On the other hand-two hearts, a bypass resperation system,and a body temperature either close to room temp., or as high as cooked meat(I'm not which scale Who uses), not to mention regeneration all seem a lot odder to me.

Emily:And they're not exactly THAT close, genetically. Not if having a Time Lord mind is gonna blow a mere human brain to smithereens.

I never said they were the same thing-I said they were similar.

What would you expect if you tried to put 700plus years of memories into a brain meant to hold -at most a little over a centurys worth(it would be like trying to fit all of you into a young kitten(not enough room)??

Also note-when she did remember there was no boom-she just passed out(after firing off a defense blast to destroy those threatening her). She woke up unharmed.

Note: again I did not say that humans and Time Lords were identical-I said they seem to be closely related genetcally.

First off-there's the time when Ten discribes Gallifrey--and it matches New Earth to a T.

Second:with little effort-a Time Lord can be disguised as a human(sometimes for years(decades?) by using a Chameleon Arch.

Third:Time Lord and human DNA seem to be compatable on a cellular level-we've seen several cases in New Who where this is shown(see Th Doctors Daughter, Journey's End(both the Human Doctor and the Donna Doctor prove this). Also Eight claimed to be half-human(on his mothers side)-if we treat this as true(remember we have also seen his grand-daughter Susan)-then Humans and Time Lord DNA must be very similar(a lion and a tiger can breed in certain settings-but the offspring(a liger(?)I think) is sterile(the same when a horse and a donkey breed to give a mule).

Fourth:we have seen several Time Lords get involved in long-term relationships with humans(I'm sorry-it's nearly 2 in the morning here-you can look up the other half if I don't list it)-Susan,Leela,Doctor-Rose Tyler,Doctor-River Song,the Master.(Note:I've also mentioned other possible physical match-ups in the past).

Fifth:with the possible exception of Morbius(no info)--every single known renegade Time Lord seems drawn to Earth(with at least two setting up shop here)-something must be drawing them.

Enough for now-as I said it is 2 in the morning.

with the possible exception of Morbius(no info)--every single known renegade Time Lord seems drawn to Earth(with at least two setting up shop here)-something must be drawing them.

Sample bias: the Doctor spends far more time on near present day earth than anywhere else. If some little green planet in the Magellanic clouds was regularly visited by five dozen renegade Time Lords we'd have no way of knowing, since the Doctor never goes there. Thus, we can have no idea whether or not the Earth gets more than its fair share of renegade Time Lords.


Similarly, we have no idea what percentage of worlds resemble the Doctor's rough description of Gallifrey, how easy it is for Time Lords to disguise themselves as non-human, or how biologically compatible Time Lords are with non-humans (for all we know, the Master might have a dozen children scattered across the galaxy, and beyond.) In fact, since all the stories we have follow the Doctor or his friends, we can never know the answers to those questions.

Blimey - is THAT what happened in Quantum Archangel?

Yes, as a minor plot point, somewhere between the Master actually acquiring godlike powers, the ancient war that the 'six' guardians wiped from the memory of the universe, someone realising they were the forbidden live child of an eternal and a chronovore, an insane computer built from dead stars, the Doctor blowing up the Great Attractor, etc - it was a very busy book.


the Great Vampire SOUNDS like the Ultimate Evil, but...have you SEEN him?!

Yes, but who looks their best first thing in the morning, or even half-way decent? Half the people I know could pass for shambling horrors from the dawn of time, if you see them before they've washed, shaved, and drunk 3 cups of coffee. Maybe the Great Vampire has the same problem. On the positive side, note it managed to spawn the Three Who Rule. The Fendahl did better, but none of the other vampires and vampiroids could come anywhere close.

Magnus Greel, aka the Butcher of Brisbane, didn't start the World War, but he did kill over 100,000 people - a pittance next to Davros, true, but a lot by most standards.

The Doctor wasn't scared of Florence. That was just an act of mercy, same as in Human Nature. he could have unleashed the full fury of the oncoming storm upon her, that righteous wrath which even the Daleks fear, but it's simply not his style.

Overall, compared with your list, I'd bump the Great Vampire up to second place, between the Fendahl and the Three Who Rule, and drop Florence down to number 7, between Greel and the Saturnynes.

Robert:Sample bias: the Doctor spends far more time on near present day earth than anywhere else. If some little green planet in the Magellanic clouds was regularly visited by five dozen renegade Time Lords we'd have no way of knowing, since the Doctor never goes there. Thus, we can have no idea whether or not the Earth gets more than its fair share of renegade Time Lords.

By that logic-we know nothing about Doctor Who; we can't even prove the Doctor to be a hero, not a villian.

We have part of less than 50 years, out of over 700-we have a total of less than 1% of his activaties. Should we assume he's out feeding kittens to sharks the rest of the time???

Of course not--it doesn't fit with observed facts.
Until we get better facts-I'll asume him to be one of the heroes.

You have a point-the facts are thin-but they are all we have-my theory is based on what we have seen, if I go otherwise we have nothing to work with.

Robert: Similarly, we have no idea what percentage of worlds resemble the Doctor's rough description of Gallifrey

Here we have an advantage-tv special effects are expensive-I raelly don't see them making New Earth match what the Doctor remembers without a good reason.

This seems both the easiest,and most logical conclusion.


Robert:how easy it is for Time Lords to disguise themselves as non-human

Good point. On the other hand we've seldom seen Time Lords(with one exception(two if you count the Rani) disguise themselves-and only then as humans(or very near humans)-this suggests major limits on their disguise abilities.

Robert:how biologically compatible Time Lords are with non-humans (for all we know, the Master might have a dozen children scattered across the galaxy, and beyond.)?

The simple fact is-unless very closely related-no two alien species will be able to breed-this was the point of my examples:two sets of very closely related animals(lion and tiger,horse and donkey)-yet although they can breed with viable offspring, the young(the liger and the mule) are both sterile.They are not close enough.

Yet-the Doctor is fertile(we've seen his grand-daughter),and a human-Time Lord cross-breed(clearly stated). From this:humans and Time Lords are genetically very closely related.(By the way-I'd love to see the lab wher Mr. Spock was conceived--that blend must have been a royal *****(Vulcans and humans are distantly related-but I don't know if it's enough)).

Robert:In fact, since all the stories we have follow the Doctor or his friends, we can never know the answers to those questions.

True-which gives us a choise-we can make theories based on what we do know--or sit back ang count how often Tom trips on his scarf.

(Minor note:since we don't know what Emily does with 90% of her time--we can't even prove that shes a Doctor Who fan(Yeah RIIIIIIIGHT!!!!).

We have part of less than 50 years, out of over 700-we have a total of less than 1% of his activaties. Should we assume he's out feeding kittens to sharks the rest of the time???

Of course not--it doesn't fit with observed facts.

Which amounts to assuming that what we see of the Doctor is typical of his behaviour, a reasonable assumption. However, we know the Doctor doesn't consider himself a typical Time Lord, so we can't go round assuming his behaviour is typical of Time Lords. Your analogy falls flat - unless, of course, you believe, contrary to the evidence, that the Doctor is a pretty average Time Lord.

I raelly don't see them making New Earth match what the Doctor remembers without a good reason.

There are only so many ways to make a sky look alien. Coincidences are bound to happen.

The simple fact is-unless very closely related-no two alien species will be able to breed-

Not without extensive technological assistance, but that's not a problem for Time Lords. The Rani could turn people into trees, a pretty similar process to the chameleon arch though only one way. That doesn't imply people are closely related to trees., but rather that technology exists for extreme genetic manipulation.

True-which gives us a choice-we can make theories based on what we do know

And one of those things is that the Doctor is not the average Time Lord, hence we should be wary about theories that effectively assume he is.

Only WOTAN thought the Doctor was human. Correction: Only WOTAN thought DOCTOR WHO was human.

You've got me on that one-after watching 3 seasons of a show called "Doctor Who" starring a character,known for his brain-power, called "The Doctor"-watching as he goes in and stirs up trouble. Time for Wotan(a super-smart computer)-to call for the head of a unknown human(never mentioned before or since)-named "Doctor Who".

RIIIIIGHT!!!!!!

I just meant that the 'Doctor Who' thing proves that WOTAN doesn't have a clue what it's talking about - not that it was referring to someone else.

Glowing eyes is nothing-it'e used to show increased mental powers(Star Trek TOS used that trick more than once).

What Trekkies do is their own problem. In Who glowing eyes are more commonly used to mean evil and/or possession - Gods of Ragnarok, Fenric, sun-possessed Doctor, Bad-Wolf-Rose (...AND, in my opinion, those War Games Time Lords).

On the other hand-two hearts, a bypass resperation system,and a body temperature either close to room temp., or as high as cooked meat(I'm not which scale Who uses), not to mention regeneration all seem a lot odder to me.

The Doc had ALREADY regenerated by War Games. He was just a leetle coy about using the actual word. Which wouldn't have meant anything to Ben and Polly anyway.

Also note-when she did remember there was no boom-she just passed out(after firing off a defense blast to destroy those threatening her). She woke up unharmed.

Yeah, but that was due to some trickery on the Doctor's part. He remained convinced that in principle Donna's brains would go splat if she remembered.

First off-there's the time when Ten discribes Gallifrey--and it matches New Earth to a T.

It does? I never noticed orange skies or silver trees or mountains or shining domed citadels or two suns on New Earth. (Cat-shaped buildings - now those I DID notice. Bless.)

Second:with little effort-a Time Lord can be disguised as a human(sometimes for years(decades?) by using a Chameleon Arch.

I've always assumed that a Chameleon Arch could be set to turn a Time Lord into ANY species.

Third:Time Lord and human DNA seem to be compatable on a cellular level

Yeah, but then humans can interbreed with practically ANYTHING. See End of the World and Doctor Dances.

Also Eight claimed to be half-human(on his mothers side)-if we treat this as true

Let's not.

Fourth:we have seen several Time Lords get involved in long-term relationships with humans(I'm sorry-it's nearly 2 in the morning here-you can look up the other half if I don't list it)-Susan,Leela,Doctor-Rose Tyler,Doctor-River Song,the Master.

There's no proof Susan's a Time Lord rather than just a Gallifreyan. Ditto for Andred. The Time Lord Doctor, despite TWO of him being in love with her, never slept with Rose. There's no indication that whatever-the-HELL is going on between the Doc and that shameless archaeologist hussy is sexual (god I need Season 6/32...NOW!) and the Doctor categorically stated that Lucy was just the Master's beard...

Fifth:with the possible exception of Morbius(no info)--every single known renegade Time Lord seems drawn to Earth(with at least two setting up shop here)-something must be drawing them.

Yeah - he's called the Doctor (or in the Monk's case, Harold Godwinson).

we can have no idea whether or not the Earth gets more than its fair share of renegade Time Lords.

There CAN'T be THAT many more renegade Time Lords than we've seen, though. I mean, even those cretins on Gallifrey would EVENTUALLY learn to padlock their TARDISes...

Yes, as a minor plot point, somewhere between the Master actually acquiring godlike powers, the ancient war that the 'six' guardians wiped from the memory of the universe, someone realising they were the forbidden live child of an eternal and a chronovore, an insane computer built from dead stars, the Doctor blowing up the Great Attractor, etc - it was a very busy book.

'Busy' is one word for it...

Yes, but who looks their best first thing in the morning, or even half-way decent?

Our Doctor ALWAYS looks - oh, wait. Was THAT was he was implying to Astrid? That he DID look 903 in the mornings?

Half the people I know could pass for shambling horrors from the dawn of time, if you see them before they've washed, shaved, and drunk 3 cups of coffee. Maybe the Great Vampire has the same problem.

And how many cups of coffee d'you think it would take to drag him out of the Bottom Ten Monsters Of All Time (along with the Giant Rat, the Taran Beast, the Drashigs, the Myrka, the Slyther, the new Daleks, the Nucleus of the Swarm, the Creature from the pit, and whatever those Timelash glove puppets were called...)??

On the positive side, note it managed to spawn the Three Who Rule.

Now THEY were GREAT.

The Doctor wasn't scared of Florence. That was just an act of mercy, same as in Human Nature.

He was trying to get her summarily executed by a bunch of Judoon. Most people wouldn't consider that an act of mercy. Certainly not on a par with letting the Family die of old age.

he could have unleashed the full fury of the oncoming storm upon her, that righteous wrath which even the Daleks fear, but it's simply not his style.

The hell it isn't!

If they'd been interrupted a minute later the Doctor would have had NO BLOOD LEFT IN HIS BODY AT ALL and given how VERY much he doesn't want to regenerate *sob* he'd've gone for righteous wrath any day if he'd had the choice.

We have part of less than 50 years, out of over 700-we have a total of less than 1% of his activaties. Should we assume he's out feeding kittens to sharks the rest of the time???

How can you say such a thing?! You KNOW the Doctor was only PRETENDING not to love cats out of sexual jealousy!

However, we know the Doctor doesn't consider himself a typical Time Lord

Yeah, and the Doc's not the only one who doesn't consider him typical of that bunch of crazy losers.

What Trekkies do is their own problem.
Trekkies are the fans, not the show.

In Who glowing eyes are more commonly used to mean evil and/or possession
Pretty much the same as in Trek.

There CAN'T be THAT many more renegade Time Lords than we've seen, though. I mean, even those cretins on Gallifrey would EVENTUALLY learn to padlock their TARDISes...
Maybe that's how Time Lords get rid of their undesirable renegades? Let 'em "steal" a TARDIS & they become someone else's problem? ;-)

And how many cups of coffee d'you think it would take to drag him out of the Bottom Ten Monsters Of All Time

An ocean of blood should do it - vampires don't drink coffee. Imagine if we'd seen the Great Vampire descend on some hapless planet, and reduce it to a withered husk, 10 billion people dying in a single afternoon to slake its thirst. Quite apart from the cosmetic effects of so much life energy, slaughter on that scale alone would lift out of the ranks of the pathetic.

At the dawn of time, the Great Vampire did exactly that, several times over, before Rassilon drove it from the universe. We just didn't get to see it in its prime.

Our Doctor ALWAYS looks - oh, wait. Was THAT was he was implying to Astrid? That he DID look 903 in the mornings?

The Doctor does not sleep as we humans do.l It may sometimes look like he is, to the ill-informed, it's really just deep meditation, on subjects mere humans could never understand. Thus, he always looks picture perfect.

He was trying to get her summarily executed by a bunch of Judoon. Most people wouldn't consider that an act of mercy.

But compared with what he did to the family, it's the very essence of mercy. The Doctor knew he wasn't going to regenerate, because he hadn't had Martha's first meeting with him yet, making premature regeneration a paradox, so he could safely go easy on Flo. He might have acted like he was in real danger, to fool Flo, but that was a sham.

Maybe that's how Time Lords get rid of their undesirable renegades? Let 'em "steal" a TARDIS & they become someone else's problem? ;-)

Makes sense. Force the Rani to stay on Gallifrey, and someone might get eaten by giant cats, not a dignified end for a Time Lord. Turn a blind eye while she sneaks off with a Tardis, and the remaining Time Lords can rest easy, free from worry - a much more civilised solution than execution. True, the Rani might go on to wreck havoc amongst the lesser races, but it's not as if they really matter. Human, Draconians, Sontarans, they're all barely more than animals, grossly inferior to Time Lords in every respect. Only the lunatic fringe would worry about the lives of such pathetic creatures - or so the average Time Lord official might well think.

Emily:I just meant that the 'Doctor Who' thing proves that WOTAN doesn't have a clue what it's talking about - not that it was referring to someone else.

Or that at that point in time the writers saw the Doctor as being human.

Emily:The Doc had ALREADY regenerated by War Games. He was just a leetle coy about using the actual word. Which wouldn't have meant anything to Ben and Polly anyway.

No he hadn't--it was clearly atated in the story that this was something the Tardis did--so either you're wrong, or you're calling the Doctor a liar(if so no wonder he's never stopped by to see you).


Emily:Yeah, but that was due to some trickery on the Doctor's part. He remained convinced that in principle Donna's brains would go splat if she remembered.

For the same reason your cats head would explode if we tried to download the contents of your brain into it--the poor critters brain isn't able to handle that much information(again-I am not saying Time Lords are human--just closely related to and possibly derived) from them.

Emily:It does? I never noticed orange skies or silver trees or mountains or shining domed citadels or two suns on New Earth. (Cat-shaped buildings - now those I DID notice. Bless.)

That's funny-I remember thinking that as he described it to Martha(?)-how he could have been seeing the same scene we were.

me:Also Eight claimed to be half-human(on his mothers side)-if we treat this as true

Emily:Let's not.

So you call him a liar-again.

Emily:There's no proof Susan's a Time Lord rather than just a Gallifreyan. Ditto for Andred. The Time Lord Doctor, despite TWO of him being in love with her, never slept with Rose. There's no indication that whatever-the-HELL is going on between the Doc and that shameless archaeologist hussy is sexual (god I need Season 6/32...NOW!) and the Doctor categorically stated that Lucy was just the Master's beard...

Do you have anything except for your opinion to back this up????(with the garbage I'm being given about lack of proof-I had to say it).

Emily:How can you say such a thing?! You KNOW the Doctor was only PRETENDING not to love cats out of sexual jealousy!

Not sure what you mean in the second part there(as I've already suggested he does his share of tom-catting around)--but that was my point,I really don't see the Doctor being cruel to dumb animals-even if we don't have proof(and iirc only the Sixth Doctor has shown any liking for cats).

Robert:And one of those things is that the Doctor is not the average Time Lord, hence we should be wary about theories that effectively assume he is.

I'll give you that-on the other hand,most of what I've talked about is either biology(which doesn't change much from person to person) or about the renagade Time Lords(which seems to show regular patterns).

Emily:What Trekkies do is their own problem. In Who glowing eyes are more commonly used to mean evil and/or possession - Gods of Ragnarok, Fenric, sun-possessed Doctor, Bad-Wolf-Rose (...AND, in my opinion, those War Games Time Lords).

I'm getting a little tired of how some people here bashing a show they've never even watched--I've been a Star Trek fan since before some of you were born(Hi,Emily). I watched it with my parents when it was in first run--it was, annd will remain one of sci-fi's classics.

(Also note:if Phil wasn't a Star Trek fan(with four books out nitpicking it-this playground would not exist)--you'd be stuck talking to yourself).

As I've said elsewhere on this board--I feel that a person can like all science fiction.

And after all the grief I was wrongly given for slamming New Who that I hadn't seen--how can you slam a show you've never watched(at that point I had only watched four seasons).

BTW-I think the prefered term is "Trekker" not "Trekkie".

most of what I've talked about is either biology(which doesn't change much from person to person) or about the renegade Time Lords(which seems to show regular patterns).

Biology doesn't change much, true, and the Doctor is presumably a typical Time Lord in that respect, but the conclusions you're drawing about unique comparability of humans and Time Lords are unsupported. We've not seen hybridisation between Time Lords and most other species attempted, nor have we spent much time around anyone who'd be likely to attempt it, so there are no grounds to presume it impossible.

We have though seen the Doctor briefly become half-Androgum, and a human turned into a tree, with a lot less fuss than the Chameleon arch took, two things which suggest that biology in the Doctor's universe is pretty flexible.

The renegades we've seen fall into two groups: those like the Master who always have a sinister scheme, and the other kind, who are just enjoying the good life in some quiet corner of the universe, until the Doctor turns up. There are actually about the same number of each, but we know the Doctor, for whatever reason, is drawn to violence, death following in his wake. Thus, the renegades he meets aren't likely to be a random sample. It's biased towards the villains, who generate the kind of situations that attract him.

What Trekkies do is their own problem.
Trekkies are the fans, not the show.

Oh, I know that.

I just don't care.

vampires don't drink coffee.

Has this ever been definitively stated in Who?

Imagine if we'd seen the Great Vampire descend on some hapless planet, and reduce it to a withered husk, 10 billion people dying in a single afternoon to slake its thirst. Quite apart from the cosmetic effects of so much life energy, slaughter on that scale alone would lift out of the ranks of the pathetic.

At the dawn of time, the Great Vampire did exactly that, several times over, before Rassilon drove it from the universe. We just didn't get to see it in its prime.

Yeah...exactly...we didn't SEE any of this for ourselves...we have to take Rassilon's word for it. And we all know what the Time Lord attitude is - 'If heroes do not exist, it is necessary to invent them.'

Yes, I'm a nasty cynical human but I'm picturing ONE Great Vampire - the one who fell through to E-Space...leaving Rassilon to fight off a few bats...

The Doctor does not sleep as we humans do.l It may sometimes look like he is, to the ill-informed, it's really just deep meditation, on subjects mere humans could never understand.

*Nods approvingly* And sometimes he thinks SO deeply he even snores...

He was trying to get her summarily executed by a bunch of Judoon. Most people wouldn't consider that an act of mercy.

But compared with what he did to the family, it's the very essence of mercy.

Well, yeah, but then EVERYTHING HE'S EVER DONE, up to and including deliberately wiping out his own species, was the very essence of mercy compared to what the Doc did to that poor Family. All because they killed a few sexist yokels and upset his ex-girlfriend...

The Doctor knew he wasn't going to regenerate, because he hadn't had Martha's first meeting with him yet, making premature regeneration a paradox, so he could safely go easy on Flo. He might have acted like he was in real danger, to fool Flo, but that was a sham.

Nice explanation - it just never occurred to me - but unfortunately Ten knows better than most that 'history can be rewritten.'

Turn a blind eye while she sneaks off with a Tardis, and the remaining Time Lords can rest easy, free from worry - a much more civilised solution than execution. True, the Rani might go on to wreck havoc amongst the lesser races, but it's not as if they really matter. Human, Draconians, Sontarans, they're all barely more than animals, grossly inferior to Time Lords in every respect. Only the lunatic fringe would worry about the lives of such pathetic creatures

Except that said creatures HAVE rather successfully invaded Gallifrey on numerous occasions. And I don't doubt the Time Lords would prefer the Lesser Races to think of them - if they've heard of Time Lords at all - as god-like legends rather than total gits, as they would if they'd had the misfortune to meet any of those Renegades (bar Himself, of course. Though it has to be said even HE doesn't exactly instil an awe of Gallifrey in everyone he meets).

No he hadn't--it was clearly atated in the story that this was something the Tardis did--so either you're wrong, or you're calling the Doctor a liar(if so no wonder he's never stopped by to see you).

Oi! River Song is ALWAYS calling the Doctor a pathological liar, and he's ALWAYS there to catch HER whenever she jumps out of a spaceship...dammit, life is SO UNFAIR!

Anyway, I'm not calling the Doctor a liar exactly. OBVIOUSLY the TARDIS gave the process a nudge - as K'Anop/Cho-je/Whatever did for Three, and the Watcher did for Four - the significance of which the Doctor then exaggerated for the benefit of this thick young human pets.

(again-I am not saying Time Lords are human--just closely related to and possibly derived) from them.

You think that TIME LORDS are derived from HUMANS? Shouldn't it be the other way round - if you're DETERMINED to see the species as related?

me:Also Eight claimed to be half-human(on his mothers side)-if we treat this as true

Emily:Let's not.

So you call him a liar-again.

Well, either he's lying through his teeth in the telemovie or he's lying through his teeth every OTHER moment of his lives, so...YEAH.

Not that it HAS to be that simple, of course. Lawrence had a theory that he was forced to remove from Alien Bodies - something about Seven turning human in Human Nature messing things up at regeneration-time, so Eight got a half-human body, so, of course, he suddenly got all these retroactive memories that he'd always been half-human...

Emily:There's no proof Susan's a Time Lord rather than just a Gallifreyan. Ditto for Andred. The Time Lord Doctor, despite TWO of him being in love with her, never slept with Rose. There's no indication that whatever-the-HELL is going on between the Doc and that shameless archaeologist hussy is sexual (god I need Season 6/32...NOW!) and the Doctor categorically stated that Lucy was just the Master's beard...

Do you have anything except for your opinion to back this up????(with the garbage I'm being given about lack of proof-I had to say it).

Fair enough...

Susan: she aged and behaved like a normal (i.e. human) fifteen-year-old. Yet the Doctor regarded being ninety-odd as being 'just a kid'.

Andred: think I got it from the books, so no longer canon. Though Deadly Assassin strongly implies not all Gallifreyans are Time Lords ('We must maintain faith in Time Lord leadership') and I suspect Time Lords wouldn't take a cannon-fodder job in the Guard.

Nine and Ten never slept with Rose: strongly implied by...well...EVERYTHING. Though I'm not saying it's IMPOSSIBLE.

Doctor and River: Moffat has already said that it's nothing as simple as being married. (Of course, He could be lying.)

Lucy as beard: see Time Crash.

Emily:How can you say such a thing?! You KNOW the Doctor was only PRETENDING not to love cats out of sexual jealousy!

Not sure what you mean in the second part there

Fear Her. The Doctor mistook Rose's admiration for a ginger cat for admiration for his backcombed hair. The look on his face, combined with his prompt claim not to like cats, was a TOTAL blatant-jealousy rerun of the dancing/resonating concete scene from Doctor Dances...

(and iirc only the Sixth Doctor has shown any liking for cats).

Nine had a pleasant chat with one in Empty Child. Eleven had a delightful telepathic conversation with one. Ten came round (though, as I say, he was only PRETENDING not to love 'em in the first place) - a few minutes of clutching one of Brannigan's little darlings and he was declaring that there was nothing better than a cat running your planet.

But yeah, Six is the only one who's gone out of his way to proclaim his adoration for the creatures (though it's not like you'd NOTICE a cat-badge, not when pinned to THAT coat). Of course, he's also the only Doctor to ACTUALLY TRY TO EAT ONE...

I'm getting a little tired of how some people here bashing a show they've never even watched

OBVIOUSLY if ANY other programme gets mentioned on the Who board, it is (or bloody well SHOULD be) in the context of its utter inferiority, through no fault of its own, to the Source Of All Joy And Happiness. Though...how would people feel about declaring the Who board a Trek-free zone? Might shut everyone up about bloody Tribbles...

(Also note:if Phil wasn't a Star Trek fan(with four books out nitpicking it-this playground would not exist)--you'd be stuck talking to yourself).

Yeah, but no doubt we - and, more importantly, Who - wouldn't exist if not for World War One or the Norman Conquest or whatever. That doesn't make 'em good things.

As I've said elsewhere on this board--I feel that a person can like all science fiction.

Yes, yes, a good and healthy attitude that you should be proud of...until you fall in love with New Who and realise that not only other sci-fi programmes but everything else in your life is a complete waste of time.

And after all the grief I was wrongly given for slamming New Who that I hadn't seen--how can you slam a show you've never watched(at that point I had only watched four seasons).

a) I wasn't slamming it, b) I have watched SEVERAL MINUTES of it, and c) it's not like I went over to the Trekkie section and rained on their parade. THAT would have been rude.

BTW-I think the prefered term is "Trekker" not "Trekkie".

Yes, that's why I use 'Trekkie'...(Actually, that's one way they DO score over Who fans. We still haven't found ourselves a proper name...)

We have though seen the Doctor briefly become half-Androgum, and a human turned into a tree, with a lot less fuss than the Chameleon arch took, two things which suggest that biology in the Doctor's universe is pretty flexible.

Yeah. Now you mention it...that IS flexible.

To get things back to vampires...the Doctor also implied he could interbreed with giant fish...

JEP - BTW-I think the prefered term is "Trekker" not "Trekkie".
Depends on the fan. Some thought Trekkie was insulting & invented the term Trekker. *shrug* Six of one, half-dozen of the other.

Emily - (Actually, that's one way they DO score over Who fans. We still haven't found ourselves a proper name...)
Just like Star Wars fans. ;-)

Emily: Oi! River Song is ALWAYS calling the Doctor a pathological liar, and he's ALWAYS there to catch HER whenever she jumps out of a spaceship...dammit, life is SO UNFAIR!

Yeah-right until the dust mites got her the first time he met her(after that-it's preserving the timeline).

Emily:Anyway, I'm not calling the Doctor a liar exactly. OBVIOUSLY the TARDIS gave the process a nudge - as K'Anop/Cho-je/Whatever did for Three, and the Watcher did for Four - the significance of which the Doctor then exaggerated for the benefit of this thick young human pets.

Again-it was clearly stated in the story that it was something the Tardis did.

The first time the term Regeneration was used to explain the process was Three to Four--and the first time without clear help was Five to Six(and we all saw how well that worked).

Emily:You think that TIME LORDS are derived from HUMANS? Shouldn't it be the other way round - if you're DETERMINED to see the species as related?

No-everything we've seen shows the Time Lords to be the more evolved of the two-I'd say humans either evolved or were modified into Time Lords.

Emily:Susan: she aged and behaved like a normal (i.e. human) fifteen-year-old. Yet the Doctor regarded being ninety-odd as being 'just a kid'.

I always pictures them as aging as humans until they became adults--can you imagine having to change your rug-rats nappies(I hope I got that right)-for 40 years??? (YUCK!!!)

Emily:Andred: think I got it from the books, so no longer canon. Though Deadly Assassin strongly implies not all Gallifreyans are Time Lords ('We must maintain faith in Time Lord leadership') and I suspect Time Lords wouldn't take a cannon-fodder job in the Guard.

They might if it's the only way to advance(no one becomes a General(?) without being a Private first).

Emily:Nine and Ten never slept with Rose: strongly implied by...well...EVERYTHING. Though I'm not saying it's IMPOSSIBLE.

And when I saw the same stories--I thought that it was just as clear that they were(and as I've said before--I feel other Doctors were having fun with other companions for quite some time(the only ones I don't suspect are One and Eight).

Emily:Fear Her. The Doctor mistook Rose's admiration for a ginger cat for admiration for his backcombed hair. The look on his face, combined with his prompt claim not to like cats, was a TOTAL blatant-jealousy rerun of the dancing/resonating concete scene from Doctor Dances...

And I'd say that the fact that he got jealous of a cat suggests something else.

Emily:Nine had a pleasant chat with one in Empty Child. Eleven had a delightful telepathic conversation with one. Ten came round (though, as I say, he was only PRETENDING not to love 'em in the first place) - a few minutes of clutching one of Brannigan's little darlings and he was declaring that there was nothing better than a cat running your planet.

As for Nine-I must have forgotten that(I've been trying hard to forget him totally),and for Eleven-haven't watched it yet.

As for Ten-first of all,those weren't cats.
They were the young of whatever cats had evolved into.

Also-I think even you would tell proud parents how cute their little rugrats are(at least if the heavily armed father was looking over your shoulder).

Emily:Yes, yes, a good and healthy attitude that you should be proud of...until you fall in love with New Who and realise that not only other sci-fi programmes but everything else in your life is a complete waste of time.

Sorry Emily--that's not going to happen. I can think of quite a few things that I'd pick over New Who.

Emily:a) I wasn't slamming it, b) I have watched SEVERAL MINUTES of it, and c) it's not like I went over to the Trekkie section and rained on their parade. THAT would have been rude.

Does this mean I can go over to youtube and watch a few minutes of the latest Chrismas special--and then start telling you what a piece of **** the next season is???

Robert:We have though seen the Doctor briefly become half-Androgum, and a human turned into a tree, with a lot less fuss than the Chameleon arch took, two things which suggest that biology in the Doctor's universe is pretty flexible.


I'm not sure I remember the first--but I thought the second was a rewrite of the genes, possibly major work.

Keith:Depends on the fan. Some thought Trekkie was insulting & invented the term Trekker. *shrug* Six of one, half-dozen of the other.

Not really-from what I've seen Trekkie is used by outsiders looking in and not understanding, and so is insulting--Trekker is a term used for the fans by the fans-thus preferred.

Emily - (Actually, that's one way they DO score over Who fans. We still haven't found ourselves a proper name...)
Keith:Just like Star Wars fans. ;-)

And yet all three would get upset by the term "nerds".

Wow-I can be a longwinded cuss-can't I???

May just be the circles I'm in, but I haven't heard 'Trekker' actually used since the 80s. :-) Star Wars continues to be a sticking point. It's annoying to have one major genre you can't attach an easy label to. "I'm a trekkie, a Whovian, and a... Warsy?" :-)

Hey--it's ok so long as it doesn't mention Jar Jar Binks!!!!

Wow-I can be a longwinded cuss-can't I???

And a persistently blind one who takes the smallest implication and makes a "fact" out of it.

As I remember, there are three lines of particular importance to this discussion (and probably many more):

Tom: I'm not human. I walk in eternity.
McGann: I'm half-human, on my mother's side.
Eccleston: I'm not descended from an ape.

That's 2 against 1 for Time Lords not being human and one that states they never were. Choosing which lines to accept as canon is always going to be personal preference, but I prefer these lines and many others implying, if not openingly stating, that Time Lords aren't human.

I'm with Emily in not seeing any resemblance between Gallifrey and New Earth, although New Earth DID look a lot like Old Old Old Old Old Old Old Old Old Old Old Old Old Old Old Earth....

And don't presume to speak for all ST fandom either. I'm a Trekkie; Trekker just sounds pretentious, like they're trying too hard to be someone.

(And if anyone's wondering where I've been lately, I was in Christchurch on vacation--boy, did I pick the wrong week to visit long lost relatives!)

This is the problem on this board--for almost a month I've been debating with people here on a number of topics.

Now a self-important jacka$$ jumps in to point out my flaws without even reading what has been said.

I guess I was fitting in--It's time for Queen Amanda to step in--so she can drive away someone else.

Don't worry Amanda-you've almost won. You've almost driven me off(I doubt I'll ttake much more).

(Now it's time for Emily to step in and defend the 10-year plus poster in a kneejerk reaction having nothing to do with the facts--and threaton to kick me off).

This is the problem on this board--for almost a month I've been debating with people here on a number of topics.

And I've read them all, as I always do before responding. It usually takes quite a while if I've been away.

As usual, you're unable to take someone else's disagreement as anything other than a personal attack. I don't see any evidence that Time Lords are or were once human except for one line in the telemovie and I dislike being called a Trekker. And this makes me a jackass?

OK, firstly - welcome back Mandy! Glad you didn't get squished in the earthquake.

Jep, I've deleted your last post and you're lucky I didn't delete the previous one too. You've totally overreacted. You don't heap personal abuse on a poster if you happen to disagree with them, and in any case you were wrong about Mandy not reading the posts, you were wrong about ME persecuting you, and also, let's face it, Mandy had a point about you making a fact out of the smallest point. Though personally I wouldn't say that makes you BLIND so much as a True Who Fan who takes up a position and defends it to the death. But you can't complain when others with considerably more evidence pick holes in your argument.

Oh my, glad I missed the last post then. Perhaps JEP and I should simply ignore each other as we seem unable to communicate.

Moderator's Note: OK everyone, let's just accept we've got to be more considerate of each other's feelings - think Tom standing on that Genesis landmine - and get back on topic. Which means deleting most of your latest post, Jep.

The fact is-she came in with a wrong idea(again-I never said that Time Lords and humans were the same thing-I said they were closely related,and that mabe Time Lords evolved from humans)-making 2 of her 3 points invalid. The third-with the number of people who argue against humans from apes-is also questionable).

Eccleston: I'm not descended from an ape.

Actually I don't remember him ever specifically stating that. Repeatedly calling Rose a stupid ape would be rather hypocritical of Eccy if he WAS, of course. On the other hand he might have meant he'd evolved a long way from said ancestors, while Rose...hadn't.

Choosing which lines to accept as canon is always going to be personal preference, but I prefer these lines and many others implying, if not openingly stating, that Time Lords aren't human.

Yeah - it's McGann's 80 minutes versus the other ten Doctors and 31 series (and counting). Most of us go with the mountain of evidence, but there is, sadly, no denying that McGann DID open his big gob about mummy...

Emily: Oi! River Song is ALWAYS calling the Doctor a pathological liar, and he's ALWAYS there to catch HER whenever she jumps out of a spaceship...dammit, life is SO UNFAIR!

Yeah-right until the dust mites got her the first time he met her(after that-it's preserving the timeline).

Oh, I don't think it's preserving the timeline so much as...as Amy put it...'Heel, boy!'

Again-it was clearly stated in the story that it was something the Tardis did.

Troughton probably didn't want to freak an already freaked-out Ben and Polly any further - it's not surprising he shuffled off the blame on the TARDIS instead of explaining his drastically different biology.

and the first time without clear help was Five to Six(and we all saw how well that worked).

Gods, I hadn't thought of it like THAT before...

No-everything we've seen shows the Time Lords to be the more evolved of the two-I'd say humans either evolved or were modified into Time Lords.

But Time Lords were around at the dawn of, well, time. And we weren't. And in End of Time they weren't acting like they were gleefully wiping out their ancestors, a la Toclafane.

(no one becomes a General(?) without being a Private first).

I suspect they might on Gallifrey. Would explain a lot about its total inability to fight off three pieces of tin foil.

Still...Castellan Spandrell has the tough look of someone who rose through the ranks. And presumably he's a Time Lord, they wouldn't let plebs on the High Council.

Emily:Nine and Ten never slept with Rose: strongly implied by...well...EVERYTHING. Though I'm not saying it's IMPOSSIBLE.

And when I saw the same stories--I thought that it was just as clear that they were

Eek!

OK, I'm moving this bit over to the Companions section.

As for Ten-first of all,those weren't cats.
They were the young of whatever cats had evolved into.

OK, technically speaking they were Cat-People, but I find the distinction meaningless. ALL cats are people as far as I'm concerned.

Also-I think even you would tell proud parents how cute their little rugrats are(at least if the heavily armed father was looking over your shoulder).

Brannigan wasn't heavily-armed! And I'll have you know I have NEVER compromised my principles and PRAISED friends' brats. And the Doctor is MUCH braver and even more tactless than me...

Does this mean I can go over to youtube and watch a few minutes of the latest Chrismas special--and then start telling you what a piece of **** the next season is???

Oooh - DO watch some of that Christmassy goodness!

The third-with the number of people who argue against humans from apes-is also questionable).

If Creationists had any actual evidence on their side, things would be questionable, but as it is, I see no reason we should take them any more seriously than if they were denying gravity.

Eccleston: I'm not descended from an ape.

Actually I don't remember him ever specifically stating that.

I can't find it now, but I remember they were outside somewhere and he was talking to Rose.

There's also Davison saying he was more closely related to Tereleptils in "The Visitation," which implies a more reptilian origin.

Emily:If Creationists had any actual evidence on their side, things would be questionable, but as it is, I see no reason we should take them any more seriously than if they were denying gravity.

I agree there--but I've seen theories saying that man is not descended from apes-he's their cousin,and evolved froma a common ancester.

Emily: Oh, I don't think it's preserving the timeline so much as...as Amy put it...'Heel, boy!'

And I'd see it as trying to prevent a replay of Father Day if she died too soon.

Emily:Yeah - it's McGann's 80 minutes versus the other ten Doctors and 31 series (and counting). Most of us go with the mountain of evidence, but there is, sadly, no denying that McGann DID open his big gob about mummy...

Which is the main reason I've tried to find other things to back it up.

The problem is-what we have is often thin,and sometimes conflicting(as I pointed out above-the first two Doctors were often treated as human by the writers).

This means that all we can do is look for clues-and try to figure out what they mean. All I've given are my thoughts on things.

Emily:But Time Lords were around at the dawn of, well, time. And we weren't. And in End of Time they weren't acting like they were gleefully wiping out their ancestors, a la Toclafane.

Now that is a point--Time Lords were busy long before there were humans.

On the other hand-I've always thought of Gallifrey as being outside of normal time.

The rules of time seem somehow different there( the Doctor can appear at anytime,and place on Earth-yet each time he goes to Gallifrey it seems time progressed normally(the easy way to take out the Time Lords would be to hit them before they were Time Lords)).

Now I know this is a radical thought-does anyone have solid proof either way(lets try to keep Emily happy by keeping it polite)???

Last thought for tonight:

Emily:Brannigan wasn't heavily-armed! And I'll have you know I have NEVER compromised my principles and PRAISED friends' brats. And the Doctor is MUCH braver and even more tactless than me...

Wasn't he large,with claws and large teeth(didn't he have a gun as well)--in my book that's well-armed. Under those terms-I'd smile and tell him how pretty his pet Rutan was!!!!

*Nods approvingly* And sometimes he thinks SO deeply he even snores...

That's wasn't snoring - the Doctor would never be so uncouth. No, he was clearly mumbling in some alien language, which resembles snoring to the merely human ear.

Nice explanation - it just never occurred to me - but unfortunately Ten knows better than most that 'history can be rewritten.'

But he's also got sense we mere apes lack. He can recognise the fixed moments in history when he sees one, so he'd know if his history was likely to be rewritten.

To get things back to vampires...the Doctor also implied he could interbreed with giant fish...

Given the flexibility displayed by biology in that universe, A Time Lord could probably anything, if they were in the right mood. On the one hand, this raises the delightful prospect that the Doctor's children could be half cat, but on the other, the Master's children might indeed be half fish.

Note, since the Rani's tree land mines worked faster than the Chameleon Arch, it seems to be easier to turn humans into trees than Time Lords into humans, evidence against any close relationship.

There's also Davison saying he was more closely related to Tereleptils in "The Visitation," which implies a more reptilian origin.

Now I've GOT to rewatch Visitation (I've been meaning to get round to it ever since Rodney spotted Five giving Tegan the finger...)

Emily:If Creationists had any actual evidence on their side, things would be questionable, but as it is, I see no reason we should take them any more seriously than if they were denying gravity.

I agree there--but I've seen theories saying that man is not descended from apes-he's their cousin,and evolved froma a common ancester.

Oh, I see! Sorry, I may just be getting a little paranoid about Creationists. Now you mention it, I'm rather hazy on whether we're actually descended from apes or from a common ancestor, myself. Thank the gods I can just take Eccy's word that I'm a stupid ape and not bother to look into the science of things. (So...exactly the same as a Creationist, then. Except that MY God is big on the whole evolution thing (deeply unfortunately, when it comes to Evolution of the Daleks, but never mind).)

Emily: Oh, I don't think it's preserving the timeline so much as...as Amy put it...'Heel, boy!'

And I'd see it as trying to prevent a replay of Father Day if she died too soon.

A Father's Day replay would only happen if there were two sets of a Doctor in very close proximity. But I'm prepared to accept that the timeline is quite important to the Doctor.

Emily:Yeah - it's McGann's 80 minutes versus the other ten Doctors and 31 series (and counting). Most of us go with the mountain of evidence, but there is, sadly, no denying that McGann DID open his big gob about mummy...

Which is the main reason I've tried to find other things to back it up.

Yeah, it's usually more fun to go against the prevailing consensus, but in the case of *shudders* half-humanness...why would you WANT to?

On the other hand-I've always thought of Gallifrey as being outside of normal time.

Yeah, and IF ONLY this had occurred to the writers of the actual TV series, Gallifrey's timeline wouldn't be such a mess.

The rules of time seem somehow different there( the Doctor can appear at anytime,and place on Earth-yet each time he goes to Gallifrey it seems time progressed normally

Actually that's not just on Gallifrey - the Doctor seems to meet other Time Lords off-planet when the same amount of time has passed for them both (he knows the Rani's the same age as him - 953 or whatever - and his millions of encounters with the Master always seem to be in the right order). So it's probably something the Rassilon Imprimature put in their genes rather than Gallifrey being removed from time...

...On-screen, obviously. Off it, the NAs (particularly, I think, Infinite Requiem) claimed Gallifrey was long dead by our present. And, typically, the Faction Paradox universe gave us a better explanation than we ever got in canon:

Book of the War entry for the Homeworld (i.e. Gallifrey):

'THE HOMEWORLD: Term loosely applied to the ancestral seat of the Great Houses, a locale whose relationship to the rest of the Spiral Politic is so obscure that very few attempts have been made to describe its exact location or even its relationship to known history...The Homeworld was removed from the rest of the Spiral Politic during the anchoring of the thread, when the children of the Great Houses re-processed themselves beyond the limits of normal biology...Tellingly, in the Houses' own (barren) culture it's depicted as a great eye which sits outside time itself and constantly peers in...It's been a long time since it could be described as anything as banal as a planet.'

Wasn't he large,with claws and large teeth(didn't he have a gun as well)--in my book that's well-armed. Under those terms-I'd smile and tell him how pretty his pet Rutan was!!!!

Sure, cats have teeth and claws, and it's not THEIR fault they're infinitely superior to the human variety. But Novice Hame was the one who was gun-totin'. Brannigan was the big softie who'd let any crazy hitchhiker get aboard his tiny home with his tiny defenceless babies.

That's wasn't snoring - the Doctor would never be so uncouth. No, he was clearly mumbling in some alien language, which resembles snoring to the merely human ear.

*Nods even more approvingly* Yup, that would be it. Sleep is, after all, for tortoises.

but unfortunately Ten knows better than most that 'history can be rewritten.'

But he's also got sense we mere apes lack. He can recognise the fixed moments in history when he sees one, so he'd know if his history was likely to be rewritten.

I'm...not sure the Doc's history-sensing abilities apply to himself. Ten, whose fixed-or-flux sense is infinitely stronger than that of any of his predecessors', managed to get caught totally by surprise by his own death. *Wails* JUST WHEN HE THOUGHT HE WAS SAFE!

To get things back to vampires...the Doctor also implied he could interbreed with giant fish...

Given the flexibility displayed by biology in that universe, A Time Lord could probably anything, if they were in the right mood. On the one hand, this raises the delightful prospect that the Doctor's children could be half cat

And we all know that half-cat kids turn out TOTALLY fluffy and adorable! The cat genes are SO dominant, just as they should be!

Note, since the Rani's tree land mines worked faster than the Chameleon Arch, it seems to be easier to turn humans into trees than Time Lords into humans, evidence against any close relationship.

Or it COULD just be that the Rani happened to be a far more brilliant scientist than the Time Lord dullards who invented the Chameleon circuit. She DID, after all, invent the TARDIS remote control that not only totally eluded them but was officially declared to be utterly impossible without massively limiting the TARDIS's lifespan (War Games). On the other hand...the Rani's a moronic nutcase.

There's also Davison saying he was more closely related to Tereleptils in "The Visitation," which implies a more reptilian origin.

Now I've GOT to rewatch Visitation (I've been meaning to get round to it ever since Rodney spotted Five giving Tegan the finger...)

Can't say I remember it personally, although it does sound familiar. Read it in an article. We should ask Rodney though; he did just watch it.

Emily:Thank the gods I can just take Eccy's word that I'm a stupid ape and not bother to look into the science of things. (So...exactly the same as a Creationist, then. Except that MY God is big on the whole evolution thing (deeply unfortunately, when it comes to Evolution of the Daleks, but never mind).)

And I tend to think that if I could see in the correct direction--I'd see the twisted little ******* who's playing with my life in their version of "The Sims".

Emily:A Father's Day replay would only happen if there were two sets of a Doctor in very close proximity. But I'm prepared to accept that the timeline is quite important to the Doctor.

I think that's just a theory to explain why we never saw it before.

On the other hand--if River Song died before her first meeting with the Doctor(his first,her last)-which we have seen; I would expect major problems in the timeline(I'd expect far worse than Fathers Day to be caused by the resulting paradox(?)).

Emily:Yeah, it's usually more fun to go against the prevailing consensus, but in the case of *shudders* half-humanness...why would you WANT to?

I know.

I really was talking about my theory that Time Lords and humans are closely related--the half-human claim would be possible support for that.


Emily:Actually that's not just on Gallifrey - the Doctor seems to meet other Time Lords off-planet when the same amount of time has passed for them both (he knows the Rani's the same age as him - 953 or whatever - and his millions of encounters with the Master always seem to be in the right order). So it's probably something the Rassilon Imprimature put in their genes rather than Gallifrey being removed from time...

You might have something there--or it might be something programed into the Tardises to prevent problems.This might also explain whe the Doctor has run into himself so few times.

On the other hand-there are at least two cases where the Doctor has met people out of sequence--River Song, and Captain Jack(the Face of Boe).

Emily:...On-screen, obviously. Off it, the NAs (particularly, I think, Infinite Requiem) claimed Gallifrey was long dead by our present. And, typically, the Faction Paradox universe gave us a better explanation than we ever got in canon:

I've already stated what I feel about the novels and other non-canon sources--I don't think you want me to tepeat it.

On the other hand,even your quote contains this line:Tellingly, in the Houses' own (barren) culture it's depicted as a great eye which sits outside time itself and constantly peers in.

I'd say that supports what I said--if only it counted.

Emily:Sure, cats have teeth and claws, and it's not THEIR fault they're infinitely superior to the human variety. But Novice Hame was the one who was gun-totin'. Brannigan was the big softie who'd let any crazy hitchhiker get aboard his tiny home with his tiny defenceless babies.

He's also a member of a species armed with sharp teeth,large claws and an unpredictable(and often cruel) nature.

If the proud pa-pa shows me his little darlings--I'm goimg to smile and tell him how lovely they are(it's less likely to get me killed).

Robert:Note, since the Rani's tree land mines worked faster than the Chameleon Arch, it seems to be easier to turn humans into trees than Time Lords into humans, evidence against any close relationship.

IIRC-the Ranis tree land mines sound like a sloppy,partial rewrite of DNA--unstable and killing the victom in a painful death(from the fact we never saw them anyplace else).

The Arch seems to be meant to hide a Time Lord for a time(possibly as long as decades)--this seems to say it's not only more stable-but easily reversed. I would guess this to be a much tougher thing to do.

The simple fact is though-the only thing we've ever seen the Arch do is change a Time Lord into a human--without further proof-we can't say if it can do anything else.

If this is the case--it seems further proof that Time Lords and humans are related.

Emily: She DID, after all, invent the TARDIS remote control that not only totally eluded them but was officially declared to be utterly impossible without massively limiting the TARDIS's lifespan (War Games).

This is what we were told--but since we did see the Doctor use a remote control at least once(IIRC Troughton used it in The Two Doctors(Colin was jealous of it-and I keep thinking its been seen elsewhere).

Since the only Doctor we've seen who really hurt the Tardis was Tennant(who did a pretty good job of it when he regenerated)--I'd suggest that we've been given a cover story and that the safe Tardis remote control exists-it's just kept secret froma most.

Emily: On the other hand...the Rani's a moronic nutcase.

This one I'll give you.

And I tend to think that if I could see in the correct direction--I'd see the twisted little ******* who's playing with my life in their version of "The Sims".

The Sims...?

Emily:A Father's Day replay would only happen if there were two sets of a Doctor in very close proximity.

I think that's just a theory to explain why we never saw it before.

Oh, it's a transparent and blatant and unconvincing excuse, but...at least they bothered to come up with a reason why Reapers haven't turned up on thousands of other occasions.

On the other hand--if River Song died before her first meeting with the Doctor(his first,her last)-which we have seen; I would expect major problems in the timeline

Which...believe me...will be as NOTHING compared to the problems in the timeline that will ensue if that shameless hussy DOES marry MY DOCTOR.

I really was talking about my theory that Time Lords and humans are closely related--the half-human claim would be possible support for that.

Sorry! You do keep pointing out that fact, and everyone does keep forgetting it, cos it's almost impossible NOT to fixate on *shudders* half-humanness.

The Master certainly didn't seem to think they were related in End of Time when the prospect of all those lovely Time Lords bodies seemed a LOT more attractive than mere human ones.

You might have something there--or it might be something programed into the Tardises to prevent problems.This might also explain whe the Doctor has run into himself so few times.

If it WAS a TARDIS programme it would have gone wrong a LOT by now. (That TARDIS managed to RUN OUT OF AIR, for god's sake. Incompetence is her middle name.)

On the other hand-there are at least two cases where the Doctor has met people out of sequence--River Song, and Captain Jack(the Face of Boe).

Neither of whom are Time Lords.

I've already stated what I feel about the novels and other non-canon sources--I don't think you want me to tepeat it.

Definitely not! And I can hardly blame you. Even I consider the books and audios non-canonical and I'm the one who squandered years of her life on the things (still am, come to think of it).

Anyway, the Faction Paradox universe is a different matter. It's as fantastic, as intricate, as real as New Who...or very nearly.

He's also a member of a species armed with sharp teeth,large claws and an unpredictable(and often cruel) nature.

What, as opposed to those defenceless, predictable, nice-as-pie humans...?

And the Doctor obviously wasn't intimidated by Brannigan, or he wouldn't have tactlessly suggested his twelve years on the motorway were entirely pointless...and the Doctor obviously had fewer problems than you with those adorable fangs and claws or he wouldn't have entrusted his beloved coat to Brannigan. (Even I would think twice before handing a favoured garment to a moggie...)

If the proud pa-pa shows me his little darlings--I'm goimg to smile and tell him how lovely they are(it's less likely to get me killed).

Oh, stop making excuses. You know perfectly well you'd be crooning 'Who's an oochie-coochie liddle basket of diddumsy-munchins?' over those fluffy beribboned ickle cuties regardless of whether the proud papa was anywhere in the vicinity.

IIRC-the Ranis tree land mines sound like a sloppy,partial rewrite of DNA--unstable and killing the victom in a painful death(from the fact we never saw them anyplace else).

The Rani was positive that her victims would live longer lives as trees. And how do we KNOW we never saw them anywhere else? Half the tree population of Britain could be ex-people for all I know (or care).

The Arch seems to be meant to hide a Time Lord for a time(possibly as long as decades)--this seems to say it's not only more stable-but easily reversed. I would guess this to be a much tougher thing to do.

The reversal was easy enough but my GOD the incompetent gits made the original change excruciatingly painful.

The simple fact is though-the only thing we've ever seen the Arch do is change a Time Lord into a human--without further proof-we can't say if it can do anything else.

Given the Doc's (and therefore the Master's) total obsession with humanity, the fact they both changed into humans means NOTHING. I've always assumed the Arch is capable of turning you into any one of hundreds of different species.

This is what we were told--but since we did see the Doctor use a remote control at least once(IIRC Troughton used it in The Two Doctors(Colin was jealous of it

True, but that was in some totally bizarre alternative universe where the Second Doctor (!!!) was...working for the Time Lords (!!!!!!).

-and I keep thinking its been seen elsewhere).

Well, the Doc inexplicably manages to get the TARDIS to materialise round its key in Father's Day.

Since the only Doctor we've seen who really hurt the Tardis was Tennant(who did a pretty good job of it when he regenerated)

Hey - it wasn't his fault! HE DIDN'T WANT TO GO!

(Alright, maybe he shouldn't have held it in for quite so long, visiting every former Companion ever, but...if I was the TARDIS, getting blown to pieces would be a small price to pay to hang onto that Tennanty goodness for another hour or two...plus, Eight DID toss a nuke into her in Gallifrey Chronicles.)

I'd suggest that we've been given a cover story and that the safe Tardis remote control exists-it's just kept secret froma most.

But surely not from the DOCTOR? Especially when he was fighting on the Time War front line?

The reversal was easy enough but my GOD the incompetent gits made the original change excruciatingly painful.

We don't really know as we didn't see it. He could have been rolling around on the floor in agony after touching the watch, although you'd think Joan would be a little more sympathetic when she saw him later if he was.

Eight DID toss a nuke into her in Gallifrey Chronicles

Never mind that; what about what he did to her in Ancestor Cell or Neverland? No wonder she's been trying to kill him all these years.

We don't really know as we didn't see it. He could have been rolling around on the floor in agony after touching the watch

We saw the MASTER open his watch, make the transformation, and NOT roll around in agony.

although you'd think Joan would be a little more sympathetic when she saw him later if he was

Ha! More likely she'd tell him it served him right, AND give him a few kicks for good measure.

Eight DID toss a nuke into her in Gallifrey Chronicles

Never mind that; what about what he did to her in Ancestor Cell or Neverland? No wonder she's been trying to kill him all these years.

She has NOT! She's just been trying to make life...interesting...for them both.

Sadly I can't remember what the Doc did to the TARDIS in Ancestor Cell or Neverland. (And I've only recently had the displeasure of rereading and relistening to them. They just...slide out of one's head.)

We saw the MASTER open his watch, make the transformation, and NOT roll around in agony.

Hmm, yes, all right.

Sadly I can't remember what the Doc did to the TARDIS in Ancestor Cell or Neverland.

Neverland had the Doctor materialize the TARDIS around an exploding time bomb or something. Can't remember Ancestor Cell clearly, but wasn't it something similar like trying to contain some Time Lordy paradox?

Oh...yeah...extremely dim memories are stirring...

Let's not forget Tom trying to DROWN the poor Old Girl in Logopolis. Just because he failed shouldn't let him off the hook.

Come to think of it, if you vanished, it kinda goes without saying that so would your shadow. Unless they suspect the Great Vampire of being a member of Faction Paradox in his spare time...?

Normal shadows would vanish with you, but do vampires have normal shadows. They don't have normal reflections half the time, so light definitely behaves in weird ways round them.

If vampires managed to have shadows that moved by themselves, and survived even when the shadow was gone, I wouldn't be particularly surprised.

Alternately, the shadow of the Great Vampire might have been a job title. It's the kind of thing that its chief minion might get called, if the early Time Lords were feeling poetic.

do vampires have normal shadows. They don't have normal reflections half the time, so light definitely behaves in weird ways round them.

Oh. Yeah, that's true. I never really got the 'reflection' thing, and Vampires of Venice didn't help.

Alternately, the shadow of the Great Vampire might have been a job title.

Ah no, then we'd've SEEN the Shadow appearing in E-Space alongside the Three Who Rule.

if the early Time Lords were feeling poetic.

They were DEFINITELY feeling poetic, bless 'em.

'Nobody ever waxes lyrical about the one [that] ends with a washing-up liquid bottle crashing into a glove. Doctor Who has never done vampires well, they are just too supernatural to work within the context of the programme. Look at their almost apologetic appearance in The Curse of Fenric, all hissing and wibbly-fingered. They feel shoved-in and incompatible. Vampires should be left to be the magnificent creatures of horror that they are within their own genre' - DWM. It's stooping pretty low to use one example of poor production values to diss ALL vampires in Who, most of whom are actually UNUSUALLY successful.

Oh. Yeah, that's true. I never really got the 'reflection' thing,

There was a time when it was believed that mirrors reflect the souls of whoever looks into them. Since vampires are living dead creatures, they have no soul to be reflected and thus don't show up in mirrors. Or so I've heard.

That's one explanation, though it implies that your clothes, which are soulless, should be invisible in a mirror.

Another explanation I've seen is that vampires don't have a real body. Most of them don't realise it, but they're just dust, wrapped in illusion, pretending to be real, so naturally they cast no reflection, and leave piles of dust when properly killed. This, though, doesn't really explain how staking them in the heart could work.

Well. Anyone who feels like criticising State of Decay's Great Vampire, and/or its death scene (aka 'a washing-up liquid bottle crashing into a glove') should try bloody watching Rings of Akhaten. Worse. Vampire. EVER. It claws at some glass. Cos it's an alarm clock for a stupid sun-god. Then it...actually, I literally switched the episode off five minutes ago and I can't remember. Did it vanish? Go back to sleep? WHAT?

Then it...actually, I literally switched the episode off five minutes ago and I can't remember. Did it vanish? Go back to sleep? WHAT?

It breaks the glass, it screams and sends an energy beam to the sun-god to awaken it, and then it dies.

Oh!

SERIOUSLY?

Blimey.

Thanks.

State Of Decay had excellent vampires. Zargo, Camilla, and Aukon were CREEPY!

Yeah, they were the BEST. Especially Zargo's beard. It's just that some nasty-minded people might possibly consider that the appearance of the Great Vampire, after four episodes' build-up, was a teeny bit of a let-down, visually...

Magnus Greel and Lazarus both drained lifeforce, and Greel specialised in young ladies, a typical vampire preference, but that's a bit more of a stretch

It's not a stretch if THE DOCTOR says Greel's a vampire: 'Some slavering gangrenous vampire comes out of the sewers and stalks the city at night, he's a blaggard!'

Well, at least he doesn't sparkle. ;-)

Someone else can explain that joke to Emily.

The mirror thing is silly fiction according to Seventh Doctor audio An Alien Werewolf in London.

It wasn't such silly fiction in Vampires in Venice but then they were technically speaking fish so...DOES Who mention the no-reflection rule or not?

According to the Doctor, the war between the Time Lords and the Vampire Army happened in the "misty dawn of history, when even Rassilon was young." While no specific time was mentioned, it clearly happened long, long, LONG ago, possibly before humanity evolved on Earth.

So the war ends, and the Great Vampire, while wounded, scarpers off to E-Space. He eventually arrives on that planet and stays there.

Millennia later, the Hydrax comes dippy-bopping along. The Great Vampire somehow senses the ship, from a universe away, communicates with Anthony O'Connor (who becomes Aukon) and then pulls the whole ship into E-Space. After which, having turned O'Connor, Miles Sharkey (alias Zargo), and Lauren MacMillian (alias Camilla) into vampires, they start the culture that the Doctor and Romana will find, a thousand years later. By this time, thanks to the Three Who Rule, the GV is almost healed.

Okay, so if the GV needed the Hydrax bunch to heal his wounds, what was he doing in the millennia between the end of the war and the arrival of the Hydrax? Why did he wait so long? Surely he could have found a few planets in E-Space to feed on. Or, if he needed the Hydrax lot to feed him, how did he survive the thousands of years before they showed up?

What happened!?

Zaltys:

'Vampirism is a phase almost every inhabited world goes through' - wait, WHAT! LEGENDS yeah, sure, but ACTUAL VAMPIRES...?!

'Necrobiologicals - vampires, in common parlance' - since when has the Doctor used some pompous term instead of just saying VAMPIRE?

Project: Twilight:

The Time Lords 'Unleashed their evil into the universe...freed vampires from their dimension...' - since WHEN! did vampires not evolve on practically every planet in OUR universe?

Vampire Science:

The mirror thing is silly fiction according to Seventh Doctor audio An Alien Werewolf in London.

Yup:

'The Doctor sat in the swivel chair. "I can see you in the mirror," he said.
"Of course. Did you expect to see a floating pair of scissors?"'

'She thought hard for a minute. "Wait. You said fourteen. How do you know?"
"It's the traditional number, according to the myths. One more life - if you can call it that - than a Time Lord. Our peoples were enemies before Australopithecus roamed the plains of Africa."' - don't remember any other instances of fourteen-vampire covens...?

'Only one Vampire survived that terrible conflict. But he spread the curse to other species... the War destroyed a dozen inhabited worlds as the Time Lords tried to wipe out every last trace of their enemies' - guess you've done your research since State of Decay, maybe don't go round TELLING lesser species how genocidal the Time Lords are...

'He put his hands on his face. "I don't know." He looked up at her. "But I do know that's the easy solution. It was easy for me to kill Lord Zarn's followers, I didn't know myself well enough at the time to know that's not what I do"' - it's what you're SWORN to do as a Time Lord and also why are you waffling on to some human about this Lord Zarn they don't have a clue about?

'Adrienne, you must listen to me. Start a war now, and it could expand to engulf the Earth - and beyond. I am not exaggerating when I tell you now that whatever you decide could have consequences for the cosmos' - bull-••••.

'My people fought yours ten million years ago. We annihilated every vampire in existence - with a few skulking, terrified exceptions who crawled away to spread their curse elsewhere' - you said it was ONE exception earlier, also - ten million years? I guess it's understandable the book should be going with Trial rather than End of Time, but still...

'Harris took a deep breath and said, "We should have talked to you youngsters about this a long time ago. It's just that it didn't seem very likely that the Time Lords were still around, that they'd bother with Earth..."' - ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

'I am a Time Lord, and we swore an oath to Rassilon to destroy you' - what, one you remembered only AFTER State of Decay, then?

The vampires can smash their way into Carolyn's home, no problem - whatever happened to that not-crossing-the-threshold-without-an-invitation thing?

I thought every point in e space was at the same time as every point in n space

Which means that the e space trilogy is contemporary to the ancient past but also to the 30th century

Umm...no?

I just thought Alzarius happened to have the same coordinates as Gallifrey, only negative...or something...admittedly I may possibly not be 100% clear on what was going on there...