Maybe I've just been overdosing on Mara recently, but this seemed like a gap in the Monsters section that needed filling. I suppose it includes all those gods - well, all the ones that aren't OBVIOUSLY aliens (the Daemon), computers (Xoanon) or lumps of rock (the dodecahedron). Or are the Beast and the Gods of Ragnarok too obviously aliens, even without a proper backstory? I suppose that still leaves that weird god that people were hacking each other to pieces over in The Massacre...
So. The Mara. What exactly happened? The people of Manussa accidentally created it with their big crystal and Lon's daftly-dressed ancestor drove it away and it nipped over to the Kinda planet to make their lives a misery in some way...? It just feels like the Mara should have originated on Deva Loka - a serpent in paradise.
If evil can't stand its own reflection in Kinda how come the Mara absolutely adored its own reflection in Snakedance? Surely the Doctor's hasty excuse about circles of mirrors being different made no sense?
Why did the Doctor think he'd finally destroyed the Mara in Snakedance? Or was that (as Ten told Donna in Silence in the Library) 'a cunning lie to make you feel better'?
Why did the Doctor think he'd finally destroyed the Mara in Snakedance?
The rotting corpse of the snake might have given that impression.
Oh, as if THAT matters! (Though admittedly I'd forgotten about this particular minor detail.) The Mara can hop from mind to mind, no problem! It certainly seemed to jump all the way to Deva Loka, no problem, the last time someone on Manussa, um, managed to find their still point or whatever.
I'd include the Gods of Ragnarok and the Beast. They don't feel like aliens because there's no sense they're part of a species.
The others of this type include Animus, the Great Intelligence, the Mandragora Helix, Fenris, and the Trickster. The Virgin NAs claimed they were all mad Time Lords from the last universe, but that feels a bit too neat. Some of them may have been; others will have considerably stranger beginnings. About Time suggests that the Land of Fiction was actually the work of Daleks, trying to study the human factor through an analysis of our fiction, but I wasn't convinced.
The various creatures spawned by the Time War may include some of these too. The Nightmare Child certainly sounds like something that would be at home with the Mara and the Trickster.
Didn't Manussa have an interstellar empire under the Mara? That would be enough to explain how it reached Deva Loka, which implies other ex-colonies may host the Mara too.
Nice list! It's padded out the synopsis a bit.
I'd include the Gods of Ragnarok and the Beast. They don't feel like aliens because there's no sense they're part of a species.
True, but on the other hand...they DO have kids. Do metaphysical monsters have kids? (Admittedly if I was the Beast I'd be demanding a paternity test, Abaddon looks NOTHING like him.)
The others of this type include Animus
Someday I'll get to the end of Web Planet in a non-catatonic-enough state to work out what the Animus is.
the Great Intelligence, the Mandragora Helix, Fenris, and the Trickster. The Virgin NAs claimed they were all mad Time Lords from the last universe, but that feels a bit too neat.
AND a bit too stupid. Actually I don't think they were all supposed to be Time Lords exactly, especially as the Nestene Consciousness was on this rather bizarre list.
About Time suggests that the Land of Fiction was actually the work of Daleks, trying to study the human factor through an analysis of our fiction, but I wasn't convinced.
God, what a stupid idea. Bound to be Tat's rather than Lawrence's.
The various creatures spawned by the Time War may include some of these too. The Nightmare Child certainly sounds like something that would be at home with the Mara and the Trickster.
Ooh, yes! The Could-Have-Been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-Weres...DEFINITELY.
Didn't Manussa have an interstellar empire under the Mara?
Dunno but I got the impression there are three planets in the Manussian Federation in Snakedance.
That would be enough to explain how it reached Deva Loka, which implies other ex-colonies may host the Mara too.
But on Deva Loka it seemed to have this special relationship with the wheel of time (or something) whereas on Manussa it just ruled a nasty empire...
Do the spin-offs think they can get away with metaphysics more often than Who can? SJA has the Trickster three times, plus the Nightmare Man and the Ancient Lights. And Odd Bob, Mona Lisa and Erasmus Darkening are borderline metaphysical as well as bloody annoying. Torchwood has those godawful fairies (with some utter drivel about them maybe being part-Mara - puh-lease), that godawful Circus bloke who captured souls, not to mention Death Itself who got into a wrestling match with Owen Harper for reasons that escape me. Oh, and then there are those monsters in the darkness, once we're dead...
True, but on the other hand...they DO have kids.
Well here's assuming, and certainly hoping, that the Nightmare Child didn't come from the Nightmare Man...
True, but on the other hand...they DO have kids.
But is that literal, or metaphorical. Geed and Lust are siblings, and Death is a child of Time, without them being part of a species.
But on Deva Loka it seemed to have this special relationship with the wheel of time
The local folklore was right about the Mara, but that doesn't mean it was right about everything.
Do the spin-offs think they can get away with metaphysics more often than Who can?
Probably just the producer's preference.
The fairies may have been part Mara, but not the one you're thinking of. Mara is an old English word, related to 'nightmare', and also a Buddhist term, but there's no connection between the two of them, just a coincidence.
What about that Death creature on Torchwood. Does that count as metaphyscial being?
Well here's assuming, and certainly hoping, that the Nightmare Child didn't come from the Nightmare Man...
Definitely not! Even Davros wouldn't have been stupid enough to fly into the jaws of something descended from THAT loser.
they DO have kids.
But is that literal, or metaphorical.
Well, it SOUNDED like Abaddon being the Beast's baby was literal - just extremely unconvincing. And the way the Ragnarok brat was whining for ice-cream certainly convinced me it was the genuine offspring of its long-suffering parents.
Death is a child of Time, without them being part of a species.
Actually, in Who, Time, Death and Pain are sister-goddesses - Eternals the Time Lords took to worshipping (or something). The Doctor was Time's Champion or Avatar (or something). And according to the audios (well, that godawful Master one anyway) the Doc did a deal with Death to turn the Master into its Champion (or something).
The local folklore was right about the Mara, but that doesn't mean it was right about everything.
That's a point. The Doctor was completely convinced by their little demo involving a metronome and some clocks, but then it WAS only the Fifth Doctor - what does he know?
The fairies may have been part Mara, but not the one you're thinking of. Mara is an old English word, related to 'nightmare', and also a Buddhist term, but there's no connection between the two of them, just a coincidence.
But it was Captain Jack who called them 'part-Mara' - wouldn't he have been more likely to be referring to a Who monster than a Buddhist/old English one? Unless, of course, Ianto whips open a Buddhist holy book whenever things go pear-shaped the way he did with the Bible in End of Days...
What about that Death creature on Torchwood. Does that count as metaphyscial being?
Oh, absolutely. I was, however, wrong about Erasmus Darkling. I vaguely remembered him being an extra-dimensional wizard ghost, but - having just rewatched Eternity Trap - he was actually a common-or-garden alien who just SEEMED like an extra-dimensional wizard ghost.
And the way the Ragnarok brat was whining for ice-cream certainly convinced me it was the genuine offspring
Just an act, to go with its appearance. Creatures like that are notoriously deceptive.
Actually, in Who, Time, Death and Pain are sister-goddesses -
But only metaphorically. They're eternal. There was never a little baby death. Of course, this does raise the question, was Owen wrestling an Eternal.
it WAS only the Fifth Doctor - what does he know?
The Doctor knows everything worth knowing, of course. The Fifth simply had his mind on higher matters, befitting his eminence.
wouldn't he have been more likely to be referring to a Who monster than a Buddhist/old English one?
It's entirely possible that the Old English word also comes from an alien race called the Mara, distinct from the one in Kinda. Maybe our Anglo-Saxon forebears came to England on the Doctor;s recommendation, after a close encounter with a bunch of alien psychopaths who wore horse masks, and had glowing red eyes - the Doctor looks at the smouldering ruins of the village: '"You should move to England, mates. It's my favourite country, and the weather's always lovely.
Would the Doctor send a bunch of Anglos, Saxons and Jutes to Britania, knowing they'd massacre the Celtic people who lived there?
For a start, it's far from clear that they did. Various lines of evidence suggest that the Celtic population collapsed through plague or famine.
More importantly, deterring the Germanic invaders from coming to England would be a massive change in known history. The Doctor doesn't do that kind of thing deliberately without extreme provocation. The one time we know about that he did, we got the Master as PM, which was not an improvement.
I know. And another line (albeit curcumstantial and linguistic) suggests they were assimilated. It's a period I'd like to see the Doctor visit though. He's been in Old English times what, once? and Middle English once? And both stories begin with the 'The Time..." (Meddler/Warrior)
You can tell by how I divide Anglo history that my background is in linguistics. :-)
He did apparently visit the court of Athelstan, but we didn't get to see it.
And the way the Ragnarok brat was whining for ice-cream certainly convinced me it was the genuine offspring
Just an act, to go with its appearance. Creatures like that are notoriously deceptive.
Hmmmm...maybe I'm being unduly influenced by personal feelings, but SURELY only bona fide parents could possibly restrain themselves from blowing the whinging sprog to Kingdom Come?
The Doctor knows everything worth knowing, of course. The Fifth simply had his mind on higher matters, befitting his eminence.
Ha! Five is an IDIOT! He was repeatedly addressed as such in Kinda and he all-but ADMITTED it.
the Doctor looks at the smouldering ruins of the village: '"You should move to England, mates. It's my favourite country, and the weather's always lovely.
Would the Doctor send a bunch of Anglos, Saxons and Jutes to Britania, knowing they'd massacre the Celtic people who lived there?
deterring the Germanic invaders from coming to England would be a massive change in known history.
Ah, but there's a big difference between inviting them and failing to deter them. The Doc would NEVER invite people to invade his favourite country. If an invasion is inevitable he still wouldn't want its blood on his hands, any more than he wanted to push that lever in Pompeii...
The Doctor doesn't do that kind of thing deliberately without extreme provocation. The one time we know about that he did, we got the Master as PM, which was not an improvement.
Though when he did it on Mars he DID save two lives...though they WERE only 'little people' so who knows if he saw that as an improvement...
He's been in Old English times what, once? and Middle English once? And both stories begin with the 'The Time..." (Meddler/Warrior)
He was in King John's time in King's Demons, and Richard I's in The Crusades, too. And he visited Edward the Confessor's court in one of the better audios - Seasons of Fear. And Richard III's in an EXCELLENT audio, The Kingmaker.
He did apparently visit the court of Athelstan, but we didn't get to see it.
Ooh, yes! And he saw Alfred burn those cakes.
(I mean, I have no memory of any Doctor actually mentioning this, on-screen, in-book or on-audio but it is INCONCEIVABLE that he didn't mention it at SOME point. AND Canute trying (not) to stop those waves too...)
OK, but still only in Anglo-Saxon times once, and never in Roman Britiania, which would make The Time Meddler the earliest on-screen adventure set in that locale (though obviously he's been in other places much further back in time). Completely forgot about the canonical but off-screen Athelstan visit, so that's two Anglo-Saxon visits.
Still, a story in which the Doctor is visiting the Germanic tribes and trying to get them to invade the island is too deliciously ironic to ignore. Someone really has to do it.
But then, I also really want to see the Doctor go to Silurian times. How he visits Earth so much but has never been to that apparently vast era makes no sense. It's also the perfect way to bring them back without having to put them back asleep or blow them up at the end. He could even tinker with their alarm clock.
And Emily, I am going to check those audios out. High praise from you is also something hard to ignore.
OK, but still only in Anglo-Saxon times once, and never in Roman Britiania
Uh, the Doctor was in Roman Britain during The Pandorica Opens and Big Bang.
Man I need a memory upgrade.
Ah, but there's a big difference between inviting them and failing to deter them. The Doc would NEVER invite people to invade his favourite country.
It wouldn't be his favourite country without those invaders. It'd be Wales, with a tinge of Sweden - nobody who knew how to make a decent cup of tea, or play cricket. Throwing the timelines into disarray would be bad enough, but turning his favourite country into a foreign land, that's unthinkable.
SURELY only bona fide parents could possibly restrain themselves from blowing the whinging sprog to Kingdom Come?
The 'parents' wanted the 'child' to be irritating as part of their master plan. They were feeding on the desperation of their victims, and having the audience from hell made those victims even more desperate.
Anyway, which of the metaphysical villains would you want to see matching wits with Eleven. The Celestial Toymaker is probably unacceptable these days, but the Great Intelligence might be interesting, and Fenris would mean we got proper vampires too.
Still, a story in which the Doctor is visiting the Germanic tribes and trying to get them to invade the island is too deliciously ironic to ignore. Someone really has to do it.
Doesn't the Oncoming Storm have enough blood on his hands ALREADY?
But then, I also really want to see the Doctor go to Silurian times.
May I recommend Lawrence Miles' Benny audio The Adolescence of Time? (OK, so it doesn't have the Doctor. And you can't SEE anything anyway. But Benny's homicidal brat goes to Silurian times, anyway.)
How he visits Earth so much but has never been to that apparently vast era makes no sense.
I suppose before The Silurians he had no reason to - never even suspecting that they existed. And after The Silurians it would be a bit...embarrassing. Like going to Pompeii on Volcano Day. You were damned if you muttered 'Check your bloody alarm clocks!' and damned if you didn't...
It's also the perfect way to bring them back without having to put them back asleep or blow them up at the end.
Well, it certainly would have been infinitely preferable to a certain Chibnall story I could mention.
He could even tinker with their alarm clock.
I repeat: BLOOD. HANDS. ENOUGH. (Unless you meant to make it WORK, in which case...WHAT ABOUT US??????)
And Emily, I am going to check those audios out. High praise from you is also something hard to ignore.
Go for it! Just bear in mind they're only GOOD in comparison with most other Who audios, rather than in comparison with The Real Thing...
The 'parents' wanted the 'child' to be irritating as part of their master plan. They were feeding on the desperation of their victims, and having the audience from hell made those victims even more desperate.
Look, if I was fighting (OK...entertaining) for my life in front of the Gods of Ragnarok themselves, even I might have had more important things to foam at the mouth about than one rug-rat.
Anyway, which of the metaphysical villains would you want to see matching wits with Eleven. The Celestial Toymaker is probably unacceptable these days, but the Great Intelligence might be interesting, and Fenris would mean we got proper vampires too.
Yes please - all of the above. I dunno if the Haemovores are proper vampires in the classic (i.e. State of Decay) sense, but yeah, surely the Doc's overdue another chess game with Fenric. And if the Macra can come back, the Yeti DEFINITELY can. And why would the Celestial Toymaker be unacceptable?
why would the Celestial Toymaker be unacceptable?
The Celestial Toymaker was dressed as an ethnic stereotype. We're slightly more sensitive about that kind of thing these days.
But what's wrong with putting on a Chinese costume? It's no more a stereotype than putting aliens in suits and ties, surely? It's not as if they yellowed the Toymaker up and had him say 'one of us is yellow', a la dear old Talons of Weng-Chiang...
Keith in the New Series: Season Three: 42 section: Presumably these sun creatures had never possessed anyone before, so isn't it amazing they were able to take the right technical knowledge from the crew to do things like re-engaging the pod ejection?
Come to think of it, EVERY entity who possesses anyone in the Whoniverse is amazingly expert at it. Which is a bit of a shame - I seem to remember a couple of sf stories where the comic potential of possession-misunderstandings was explored.
Mandy in Villains: Humans section: I think my worst villain would have to be that silly snake thing from Kinda.
Yeah, if I hadn't been sticking to baddies of the human variety, that snake might have made the list of Worst Ten...but then, the concept of the Mara is rather good.
The Trickster, in a DWM interview:
'I've tried to move the Trickster on a little bit each time. In the second series, I made him just a little bit pervy!...And this time around, you see a spiteful, sycophantic quality. He's always been very, very inhuman, but now we see his, like, human side. You can see that he really respects the Doctor. He reveres him.'
Blimey. Did anyone ELSE spot any of that? Cos I sure as hell didn't.
Is that mind-parasite thing (Torchwood: Miracle Day: Immortal Sins) metaphysical enough to be part of the Trickster's Brigade? I mean, it's hardly a time-changing invisible beetle. Sure, in this case it was going to be used in a Trickster-like messing-with-history way, but it basically just drills into your skull and deposits its larvae (or whatever) like that critter that got Owen's fiancee. If that's not a common-or-garden alien I don't know what is.
The parasite isn't part of the Trickster's brigade, but it was brought to Earth by one of them. Since Jack new about it, I'd guess someone at Torchwood Cardiff got tricked into sending the crate to the US, rather than safe storage, so Jack followed the trail to the US, working out who was really responsible along the way.
Of course, this raises the question: what else might the Trickster's brigade be responsible for?
The parasite isn't part of the Trickster's brigade, but it was brought to Earth by one of them.
Ah! OK, if you say so. (I'm sure as hell not rewatching to double-check...)
Whatever Happened to Sarah Jane?:
'She is just a child' - sweet of THE TRICKSTER to try to persuade Andrea not to go for the jugular.
'I cannot kill' - VERY interesting.
'Chaos is my blood and air and food' - and yet you never noticed the Doctor before, despite him thwarting chaos on a universal scale by assembling the Key to Time?
'Writer Christopher Bailey can be heard on one of these documentaries emphasising the Buddhist outlook underpinning his writing, which specifically denies the existence of "evil" as a concept' - DWM Mara Tales preview. Sorry, WHAT! What the •••• did he create the Mara for if he doesn't believe in evil??
So do the Boneless count as Metaphysical Monsters?
What exactly is the definition of a Metaphysical Monster? I've read the synopsos, but it only provides a list of examples, not an actual definition.
Well, at merriam-webster.com
1 of or relating to metaphysics (the part of philosophy that is concerned with the basic causes and nature of things)
2 of or relating to the transcendent or to a reality beyond what is perceptible to the senses, also supernatural
3 highly abstract or abstruse; also theoretical
4 of or relating to poetry especially of the early 17th century that is highly intellectual and philosophical and marked by unconventional imagery
#2 would seem to be the closest to how we are using it here. (Although it would be interesting to see the Doctor fight a 17th century poem. ;-)
In that case yes, the Boneless can be viewed as Metaphysical Monsters.
Although it would be interesting to see the Doctor fight a 17th century poem. ;-)
Isn't it pretty much what he did in The Shakespeare Code?
Well it was a 16th century play and the Doctor wasn't so much fighting it as preventing it from being rewritten by Evil Women, but apart from that...
I'd class the Boneless as Eldritch Abominations, utterly alien living violations of natural law - see http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EldritchAbomination for a longer description, and examples.
They're pretty rare on screen, but the Virgin New Adventures imported quite a few from Lovecraft's works
Oh gods, we got some of THOSE in the audios too.
They're not fun. They're not clever. They're not interesting. (Well, maybe they are when LOVECRAFT does 'em, I wouldn't know.)
Well, maybe they are when LOVECRAFT does 'em, I wouldn't know.
Lovecraft was an extreme racist, even by 1920's standards, but he did love cats. In some of his stories, people who hurt cats die in well-deserved terrible ways. In others, cats protect the dreams of men against the horrors from beyond the stars. After all, if creatures more terrible than any nightmare devour our sleeping minds, the cats won't get fed in the morning.
He's not to everyone's taste, but he did have some talent. Try reading some of his stories sometime, and you'll get an idea what the audios and the new adventures were aiming at.
In some of his stories, people who hurt cats die in well-deserved terrible ways.
He has PEOPLE WHO HURT CATS in his books?
That's SICK!
He has PEOPLE WHO HURT CATS in his books? That's SICK!
Well, they are horror stories, but in the one I just checked the two culprits were killed and eaten by all the other cats of the village, leaving only scattered bones. After that, the villagers decided never to be cruel to cats ever again.
NO SECOND CHANCES!
Does the Doctor search through ravening hordes of Sontarans for another Strax, or Cybermen for another Handles, or Daleks for more Alpha, Beta and Omegas? No! He blows the lot of 'em to smithereens! ALL those villagers should have been eaten without mercy!
Running Through Corridors: 'Most monsters are created as something very large and lumbering and identifiable: full three-dimensional races with a history and a home planet and an obsessive need for militaristic conquest. The only thing that really distinguishes a Sontaran and a Zygon...is that one looks like a potato and one looks like a foetus...Concept monsters, though, get their scares from a darker place of the imagination, by being unknowable and bizarre...the drama...is derived largely not from moments of action and crisis, but from explorations of that mystery. The trick, really, is whether you can imagine the Mara or the Weeping Angels appearing in the same story with the Daleks or the Cybermen. They don't appear to share the same fictive universe' - nice thoughts but they DID all appear together in Time of the Doctor...(yes, even the Mara, in Tales of Trenzalore.)
The Toymaker done right... and thankfully no longer played by woman basher Michael Gough... would be a nice curio.
I dunno, the Toymaker just wants to play stupid games all the time, plus he stepped over the line that SHOULD, in my opinion, separate Who from pure fantasy-fiction, plus s/he's had several reprises in the books and audios and has been utter rubbish every time (I say s/he because Second Doctor audio The Queen of Time involved *shudders* the Toymaker's SISTER).
If they wanted Michael Gough to play the Toymaker again, they'd need a Ouija Board, since he's been dead since 2011.
For those who haven't read her book, according to his one-time wife Anneke Wills (Polly Wright), Michael Gough committed domestic violence upon her and injured her.
And, of course, things like this were kept quiet when all that happened.
According to Wikipedia, the guy was married four times. His last wife outlived him.
Kinda:
'I too have heard the legends of the Mara' - you HAVE? Since WHEN! The Academy didn't even mention the DALEKS!! (Also, what exactly did you hear cos you had to run round like a headless chicken in Kinda AND Snakedance working things out for yourself and/or being told what to do by Dojjen.)
So Panna knows that the sign of the snake is 'the mark of the Mara, the evil ones' but all those wise women down the centuries somehow forgot to stick THAT in a prophecy and make it common knowledge?
And...evil ones PLURAL? There's more than one Mara? (I suppose that might make more sense than the Kinda's one just nipping off to colonise Manussa...?)
DOCTOR: Back to the dark places of the inside, or wherever. But not here, not anywhere here. This world is free of it.
KARUNA: And of its curse.
TODD: Curse?
KARUNA: Yes.
TODD: What curse?
KARUNA: The curse of time. It is the Mara which starts the clocks. - The MARA creates TIME? For Deva Loka or for the whole UNIVERSE? It is the Mara we have to thank for not ending up like Big Finish's godawful concept of a timeless Divergent Universe?
The Mara didn't colonize Manussa, that's where it originally came from.
Ah, thanks, I've never been very clear on what the hell was going on there (despite, or perhaps because of, Big Finish helpfully doing a prequel set on Manussa). So after Lon's ancestor banished it, the/a Mara just nipped off to, er, start the Wheel on Deva Loka...?
Curse of Fenric:
DOCTOR: The dawn of time. The beginning of all beginnings. Two forces only, good and evil. Then chaos. Time is born, matter, space. The universe cries out like a newborn. The forces shatter as the universe explodes outwards. Only echoes remain, and yet somehow, somehow the evil force survives.
Is he saying the Evil survived and the Good didn't? And how does this fit in with the existence of two Guardians?
No Emily, it clearly does not say that.
What it say is that good and evil are both created,then the universe explodes--while evil lives.
It does not say that good didn't survive--it only says that evil was trapped -good is apparently free to roam.
The only thing that this might explain is why Dark Guardian always uses minions to act(if the Dark Guardian is really trapped it might be the only way for him to take action).
This might be our proof that the White Guardian sent the Doctor to collect the key to time--if the Black Guardian really is trapped he'd have to send a minion who he could make empty threats at.
This would explain not only why Turlough stayed with the Doctor, but why the Doctor allowed to.
Who would guess that one short quote could explain so much.
That's clearly supposed say Turlough not Furlough.
Smegging tablet--it only prints what I type,not what I think.😁😁😁😁
Not only that-this site won't show emojis.
That's clearly supposed say Furlough not Turlough.
It does say 'Furlough,' not 'Turlough'...
Instead of all these additional 'smegging tablet' posts, can't you just proofread *before* posting? Nitcentral gives you that choice. Or use a computer?
An occasional 'oops' post is understandable, and we all know that errors become more visible after we hit send/submit, but the 'every time-ness' of the smegging tablet posts just highlights that ultimately, what you present to us is your responsibility, not your tablet's.
JEP, as a welcome back, I went in and fixed the errors. Your posts now say "Turlough".
Perhaps you should lose the tablet and use a computer. Much less hassle that way, IMO.
No Emily, it clearly does not say that.
What it say is that good and evil are both created,then the universe explodes--while evil lives.
It does not say that good didn't survive--it only says that evil was trapped -good is apparently free to roam.
No, Evil wasn't trapped till considerably after the Big Bang - humans have invented chess when El-Doctair carves those bones in the desert...
The only thing that this might explain is why Dark Guardian always uses minions to act
Only if you think Fenric = the Black Guardian, which he could be (Fenric's 'just Millington's name for it. Evil has no name') but I just can't see the Black Guardian fitting in a bottle...
All I'm saying fits what you posted.
For one of the novels--that's a good fit.
Well, I s'pose that's one of the advantages of metaphysical villains, they're...metaphysical enough to squeeze into most scenarios...(Well, not that bizarre claim in Small Worlds that the stupid fairies are part-Mara, that's JUST SO STUPID.)
What does that even mean??????
No one would think less of you if you admit when you're wrong(they might even respect you more(just don't do it to often)).
What does that even mean??????
What does what even mean?
No one would think less of you if you admit when you're wrong(they might even respect you more(just don't do it to often)).
I always do admit when I'm wrong (DARLING Donna!) I just don't think I'm wrong about Fenric not being the Black Guardian...part of the Black Guardian...oh, whatever.
It means everyone makes mistakes -- if you do most people will forgive you if you just admit it.
Wait a minute --you're just jerking my chain aren't you????
You must be--no one can be that far out of touch.
Nope, I genuinely have no idea what the hell you're talking about most of the time.
Okay Break time.
If I read one more post I will seriously violate most of Phil's rules.
Sorry.
Absolutely with Emily on this one. Ferric is not the black guardian. Period.
Although it doesn’t happen very often, Emily has been known to admit when she is wrong- but you’re confusing “having a different opinion” to being “being wrong”. There’s your problem.
Case in point- Emily thinks Colin Baker is the absolute worst person on the planet because of the subpar scripts, awful costume and behind the scenes shenanigans going on. I think he’s a decent actor, lovely person and reasonable Doctor. There is precisely zero chance that Emily will ever change her opinion (despite the man sending her a beautiful birthday message this year). I think she’s wrong, everyone else here thinks she’s wrong but she just has a different view of it.
In short, you’re being a tad aggressive and you would do well to remember that sometimes stepping away or just agreeing to disagree is a far better solution.
Last piece of Emily advice- as a person who has bantered with her for over 20 years I have found that the more you dig your heels in, the more she digs hers in. Believe it or not, I actually consider Emily a close friend even though I have no idea what she looks or sounds like.
Oh, is that what her 4:39 post meant.
I saw the quote above, and thought it would explain so many Who quirks (such things as why does an all powerful Dark Guardian only act through minions).
Add to that that I really had no clue what her 4:39 post meant confused me as all I was thinking was it could give a bit of depth to a character who's total personality amounted to:
1)he might dislike the Doctor.
2)he uses minions who he is verbally abusive too.
Oh yes-he also wears a bird on his head.
Add to that that a that time Emily and I were having words over such vital Who topics as is chess simple.
I think it's easy to see why I over-reacted.
To Emily:I apologize for not understanding what you were saying.
Emily and I were having words over such vital Who topics as is chess simple.
That was us AGREEING that it was incredibly stupid to call chess 'simple'.
To Emily:I apologize for not understanding what you were saying.
It's fine, I don't understand what you're saying half the time either, we both obviously just need to try to be a bit clearer whilst gradually getting on each other's wavelengths...
Fine.
Can we agree that in Shada it really does not matter if it's set in Cambridge or Paris????
As far as I can see changing the setting to Cambridge would only drag a tedious story out further.
If you're getting rid of Doctors then I vote for eliminating Eccy.And he dragged porr Rose down with him).
He was the worst Doctor ever.
Fine in case you still can't figure out who I'm talking about he played the 9 Doctor (he was later redefined to be the tenth(because the War Doctor had not been invented yet).
Have I given you enough clues to figure out this actor that I hate.
I hate tablets that don't know how to spell the name of every grade b actor alive.
I too loathe the Ecclestraitor with a fiery passion.
He was the BEST DOCTOR EVER and he betrayed n'abandoned us after approximately two minutes, shattering my heart into a thousand pieces* and RUINING MY LIFE...
*All of which promptly fell in love with David Tennant but that's entirely beside the POINT.
Oh wow-- we almost agree on something.
The only point I disagree with is that is that I feel Tennant stuck around for too long.
The year of specials should not have existed.
The character yelling "I don't want to go", while the actor said "get me out of here" really got old fast.
For the record I never said that she was wrong--all I said was that I didn't understand what she meant.
The only point I disagree with is that is that I feel Tennant stuck around for too long.
The year of specials should not have existed.
I have...very mixed feelings. Every moment of Tennanty goodness is precious, but on the other hand I was OUTRAGED at the concept of a Gap Year in which we were only blessed with five Specials...
The character yelling "I don't want to go", while the actor said "get me out of here" really got old fast.
'I don't want to go' does feel rather...weedy and embarrassing in retrospect. Hell, the other DOCTORS were taking the •••• out of it in Day of the Doctor...
Okay how did this get here--it was supposed to be in Metaphysical Villians.
You just posted here. I can move it if you like?
Spoofing something clearly shows a love for something,and a willingness to return.
What Tennant did wrong was publicly air his dirty laundry.
So he threatened to leave, and the producers caved and gave him a short season (with only one good story during the total season).
During this time Tennant was sending out mixed signals
As far as I can tell Tennant thought that 26 weeks a schedule too tough a to maintain to work(in spite of at least one Doctor lite(Tennant gets a week off)a season.
As many actors would kill for regular work it leaves me wondering about the dedication that Tennant had to New Who in the first place.
As comparison--when George Takai (The Green Berats )ran over schedule all of his dialogue was given to the new kid(leaving puzzles that have never solved). This is often how actors are really treated.
(Sorry about any minor misspelled words--I do want to lose another post to a low battery).
I think Pat Troughton was right--no one should play the Doctor for more 3 year,the fowl up every time.
What Tennant did wrong was publicly air his dirty laundry.
So he threatened to leave, and the producers caved and gave him a short season (with only one good story during the total season).
Um...do you have any sources for this...?
(Well, aside from the unfortunately-bleedin'-obvious 'only one good story' bit.)
As many actors would kill for regular work it leaves me wondering about the dedication that Tennant had to New Who in the first place.
Whilst he is a True Fan AND IS RETURNING TO US TO PROVE IT OH GODS HE IS RETURNING, I have to admit I was and am pretty pissed-off he couldn't have given us a few years more. Better still, decades. The BBC literally tried to KILL Who when he left.
I think Pat Troughton was right--no one should play the Doctor for more 3 year,the fowl up every time.
Whereas I curse the ghost of Patrick Troughton on a regular basis. His bat**** crazy notion cost me my Tennant, my Matt, my Capaldi, my JODIE!...
If they had taken Troughtonns advice we might have been spared from Pertwee season 4 five, Tom Baker seasons 4,5,6,7, and Tennant season 4.5.
I think that that would have good for the show.
Before you explode let me explain:Jon was good until he got too comfortable in the role during seasons 4and5, Tom really seemed too comfortable during seasons 4,5,6,7(I can only think one watchable show during that period) and I've already given my thoughts on Tennant.
These are only my opinions -your mileage may be different.
That's supposed to say during seasons 4 and 5.
Mayby someday I'll get it right.
Ok, can anyone explain why Emily broke into this conversation???
Over in companions general I met a newby. I didn't quite get what she saying -so I responded with a joke.The next post Emily broke in,and in with what I assume was a joke made what seemed to be an irrelevant comment. It felt like Emily was trying to break up a slightly suggestive first meeting.
I've never seen anything to suggest that Emily swings that way.
So can anyone tell me why Emily seems to be reacting like a jellous lover????
So you've apologised for calling me a stalker and moved straight on to calling me a jealous lover instead.
I don't know how you think this board works, but everyone is, y'know, welcome and SUPPOSED to join in any thread they wish. The idea that anyone, ever, is 'breaking into' a conversation is bizarre.
Flux:
So, um, 'Time is evil, and it will seek its own.' It's the Saviour of Ravagers Swarm and Azure, only it dissolves 'em cos it's pissed off they didn't manage to release it (whereupon it would have destroyed this universe and been stuck rewatching their rewind of the event...forever?). But it bore the Doctor no malice for defeating them/it, generously restored her split selves and even tipping her off about the forces massing against her...
Yet from An Unearthly Child we're told Time is just the fourth dimension...and the Doc does a LOT of travelling in it, funny s/he never noticed it was, like, A PERSON WE'VE NEVER HEARD OF BEFORE OR SINCE. (The Lethbridge-Stewart novels seem to be trying to get us believe that the Black and White Guardians are WORKING for Time but let's just...not go there.)
The not-things. They come from beyond the edge of the universe, having formed out of nothing. Hate travels faster than love, so they want to join the universe at war.
They can only take form with someone to copy, and they know what the person who copies knows. They're puzzled by slow motion, temporarily distracted by salt, and are terrifying because they are so personal.
Not-Donna probably understands the Doctor better than True-Donna because of her big space brain.
Hate travels faster than love
Yeah, that's an odd message for the Whoniverse in general and RTG-Who in particular to convey...
ROBERT: The Celestial Toymaker is probably unacceptable these days
ME: Why would the Celestial Toymaker be unacceptable?
ROBERT: The Celestial Toymaker was dressed as an ethnic stereotype. We're slightly more sensitive about that kind of thing these days.
Unless we're Russell T God, who manages to be staggeringly politically-correct and staggeringly un-politically-correct at the same time...
The Giggle:
'Until the year five billion, when the very last human picks up the skull of his enemy und says, "That is the final ball of all."'
The Very Last Human (if you're being all RACIST about it, which obviously you ARE) was a) a she (though she used to be 'a little boy' so I guess you're transphobic as well as racist) and b) devoid of these 'arm' things...
'I beat the Toymaker, I won his game, but now he's here. He's found his way into reality. And I think it's all because of me. Because I got clever, didn't I? I cast that salt at the edge of the universe. I played a game and let him in. An elemental force with the power of a god, and he's driven the human race mad with a puppet'
I still have problems with the whole 'salt' thing (FENDAHL, people!)...also SHOULD the edge of the universe be, y'know, MAGIC...but •••• this is the Celestial Toymaker done right. (Sorry, the TOYMAKER. 'Celestial' has been dropped, give or take Fourteen's 'We can take your games back to the stars. We can play across the cosmos. We can be... Celestial.')
'I came to this universe with such delight. And I played them all, Doctor. I toyed with supernovas, turned galaxies into spinning tops'
RIP yet more galaxies.
'I gambled with God and made him a jack-in-the-box.'
Since when has the Whoniverse had a God? And why would it be a 'he'?
And seriously, can NO ONE but the Doctor BEAT this guy? I mean, there ARE some games you have a 50/50 chance of winning (even if I think you're an IDIOT for going for a card-cut/coin-toss/whatever).
'I made a jigsaw out of your history. Did you like it?'
Oh...kay...WHICH of the many, many, many contradictions of Our Hero's life can we suddenly blame on the Toymaker?
'The Master was dying and begged for his life with one final game, and when he lost, I sealed him for all eternity inside my gold tooth'
Why on Earth would you want the Master inside your MOUTH?
'There's only one player I didn't dare face. The One Who Waits.'
Wow.
I CAN'T WAIT!!
Good luck, Ncuti...
'I don't understand why you're so small!'
Yeah, maybe don't have the Doctor POINT OUT the rubbishness of the villain...
Well even beyond Cassandra, humans went back to human form, and not only them, a lot of species would look human and invent balls.
But the Toymaker specifically said the Last Human in the Year Five Billion...