May end up moving this to Ask the Matrix as it doesn't quite fit in here (despite the fact that NOTHING could be more apocryphal than the people who claim they're making up Doctor Who!!) but I thought we needed SOMEWHERE to discuss different directors (now that I've finally started NOTICING the direction), debating RTG v The Moff (I'd say RTG v JNT but that wouldn't be a debate so much as a massacre of the sort that would involve a Raston Warrior Robot army versus a small puppy) and suchlike.

So...is Moffat Who too complicated? Was RTG right to say that only 10% of viewers tune in every week (say it isn't so!)? Is Whithouse nuts to claim Old Who was just as complex?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2011/sep/20/doctor-who-too-complicated

At various points in the history of the show, this board could be in the Villians section.

It's a shame JNT died when he did. 54 is no age at all. ditto Graham Williams who committed suicide in 1990

It would have been interesting to get JNT's reaction to the New Series. Would he like it? Would he hate it? Guess we'll never know (anyone got a Ouija Board handy).

However, it seems that both RTD and the Moff have much more creative flexibility than the producers of Classic Who did. Can you even imagine gay/lesbian themes being on the original series?

Can you even imagine gay/lesbian themes being on the original series?

Yes. But then that was kind of the point: you HAD to imagine what, say, Vivian Fay and Professor Rumford were getting up to...or the Rezzies...or all those races with only one female...

There's a rather excellent, if suicidally depressing, interview with RTG:

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/12/05/interview-russell-t-davies-on-shelving-us-projects-his-partners-cancer-diagnosis-and-coming-home/

For anyone who can't be bothered to click on the link, my favourite bit is him being offered Who:

“For a couple of days I had a lot of doubts,” he says. “My cleaner comes to clean every Tuesday and we always natter and put the world to rights. I sat there babbling for half an hour saying: “Should I do it? I love that show! Will I stop loving it? Will it have enough money? Will they want to put it on BBC3?” And he said: “Have you seen what you are doing?” While I’d been talking to him I’d been unpacking a big box of toy Daleks, each covered in bubble wrap, trying to find a specific black and gold one. I was like, “Yeah. I think I’d better do it.”

When the blame goes out for who was responsible for the Sixteen Long And Barren Years (as Emily calls them), two men get most of the blame, John Nathan-Turner and Michael Grade. While compelling arguments can be made for both these men (especially Grade), I think we can add another one, Eric Saward.

As most of you know, Mr. Saward was Script Editor for most of Peter Davison and Colin Baker's tenures, and, to give the man his due, he did write some good Who stories (he was the one that got rid of Adders, after all).

However, Mr. Saward's idea that the universe was a dangerous and violent place began to creep in. Season 21 was the start of it, one only has to look at Warriors Of The Deep and Resurrection Of The Daleks (the first being heavily rewritten by Saward, the second totally written by him) to see what he had in mind, bodies everywhere!

When Season 22 began, Saward was let off his leash and the violence skyrocketed. Almost every story of that maligned season had large body counts, and people started to notice and complain. This gave Michael Grade, who made no secret of his dislike for Who, the chance he had been waiting for. The year-and-a-half hiatus was the result.

Grade's edict, that they "clean the programme up" resulted in the fiasco known as Trial Of A Time Lord (it was around this time that Saward quit the show over a dispute with JNT and has spent the quarter-of-a-century since telling anyone who'll listen was a rotten producer JNT was). Classic Who never quite recovered from the Trial debacle and that led to it being taken off the air in 1989.

So Saward should share some of the blame. Had he not insisted on excess violence, perhaps Grade might not have stepped in, and Classic Who might have enjoyed more dignified stories in the late 80's.

OK, you've convinced me. He's definitely on my list of people to make voodoo dolls of when I've got a minute...

'I'm not sure I've ever understood a single episode [of the West Wing]!...An awful lot of storytelling isn't really about making people understand - it's about making people care.' - Moffat in The Brilliant Book 2012. Well, that explains a LOT about his story-arcs. Though not why he doesn't make me CARE the way he did when he was writing for RTG...

'Now I'm thinking, "We had more public interest from Let's Kill Hitler - just those three words - than any trailer we've ever done, so let's do a series like that, where we really slut it up." That's what I've been saying in my writers' briefings just this week: "Write it like a movie poster. Let's do big, huge, mad ideas."' - Looks like Season 7/33 will be fun. WHEN it eventually materialises.

Next fall, right?

THIS fall! (Autumn. Whatever.)

Moffat is now posting pictures of his kittens on Twitter. It is JUST NOT FAIR that any one person can dangle the Doctor like a puppet on his strings AND have two adorable white-and-grey bundles of fluffiness.

I hereby volunteer to be the slave in his chariot whispering 'Remember you are mortal'...

'Russell T Davies and Phil Ford are bringing new action adventure drama Aliens Vs Wizards to children's TV this autumn. The series will comprise 12 episodes of 30 minutes each and centre on two 16-year-old schoolboys, Tom and Benny, and an alien race entitled the Nekross.' - Gallifrey Base.

Whatever happened to RTG devoting His life to nursing his sick boyfriend? And if He's gone back to work, what about Torchwood (not to mention Cucumber)?

I don't know what Cucumber is, but I can do without Torchwood: LA.

I'm sure RTG will LEARN from any mistakes that accidentally happen to have been made in Miracle Day. (Well, fairly sure. He DID bring Martha Jones back for FIVE Season 4/30 episodes, after all, not to mention in Torchwood AND End of Time.)

Cucumber is the explicit gay drama He says is the best thing He's ever written.

Oh god. Chris Chibnall and Toby Whithouse are to join 'the unconfirmed writers Mark Gatiss and John Fay' for Season 7/33.

What a heart-sinking moment. Whithouse is absolutely fine but highly unlikely to write an all-time classic. (School Reunion was very nearly an all-time classic but that was 100% thanks to Lis Sladen and had absolutely nothing to do with the actual plot.) Chibnall is...pretty bad. Gatiss ran out of ideas years ago. This Fay bloke's Torchwood episodes were fine (which given that one of 'em was in Miracle Day is quite an achievement) but that doesn't necessarily mean he's worthy of Who.

Hopefully there'll be some brilliantly unexpected fresh blood for the other episodes, but at the moment it feels as if Moffat's trying to play it safe with people he knows will turn in their script on time, never mind whether it's actually any GOOD.

Ah.... Eric Saward all over again....

When people start playing it safe, quality usually takes a nose dive. Creativity first and foremost involves the risk of exploring unknown territories, and the risk of failure.

Maybe some unforeseen brilliant chemistry will happen with the four (five, counting Moffat) of them coming together.

What can I say? I'm an optimist. So sue me.

Well, let's give these people a chance before we pass judgement on them.

Sorry Tim- Emily has set the precedent- one mistake and you are slandered and abused from here to kingdom come. At least by Emily...

When people start playing it safe, quality usually takes a nose dive. Creativity first and foremost involves the risk of exploring unknown territories, and the risk of failure.

Hear, hear.

Almost always, if I don't love and adore a New Who episode, it's because it was playing it too corridor-runningly SAFE, not because it tried and fell flat on its face. I honestly don't mind if something wild and crazy like Last of the Time Lords goes a bit wrong.

(With Old Who it's a bit different, god knows The Web Planet REALLY pushed the boat out...)

What can I say? I'm an optimist. So sue me.

I'll wait till Season 7/33. THEN I'll sue if necessary...

Well, let's give these people a chance before we pass judgement on them.

I did! And honestly, I'm cautiously optimistic about this Fay bloke.

But Gatiss blew THREE chances - Idiot's Lantern, Victory of the Daleks and Night Terrors (and let's not even THINK about Last of the Gadarene) and Chris Chibnall committed the crimes-against-Who that are 42, Hungry Earth and Cold Blood, not to mention several of the weaker Torchwoods. (Not weakEST Torchwoods, obviously - they were both PJ Hammond.)

*Shrugs* What can I say? No fourth chances. I'm that sort of a woman.

one mistake and you are slandered and abused from here to kingdom come. At least by Emily...

Well, yes and no. Yes in that anyone who writes a less-than-fantastically-brilliant episode of Who has done the equivalent of profaning the sacred temple of Aggedor and should automatically be clubbed to death by the King's Champion.

BUT, being a perfectly reasonable person, I'm quite prepared to commute the death-sentence (and even, after a few years, shut up about how much I loathed their episode, except when I have the misfortune to WATCH it of course) providing their keep their grubby paws off my Who in future.

Is that REALLY too much to ask?

(Plus, if you've already written dozens of fantastically marvellous episodes I MIGHT let you have the occasional bad day like Next Doctor or Widow and Wardrobe. CAN'T say fairer than THAT.)

I liked Idiot's Lantern and 42....

WHY for the love of the gods, WHY?

I can CLEARLY REMEMBER watching Idiot's Lantern for the first time and oh-so-gradually getting this hideous creeping realisation that it was a bit...well...dull. This was a feeling I had never, hitherto, experienced during New Who and frankly had never EXPECTED to experience.

And 42 is probably the only Who story that could be wiped off the face of the Earth without losing ANYTHING AT ALL. Even Manhattan and Black Spot (worse than 42 as they undoubtedly are) have their MOMENTS.

I think it was just because Tennant was so cute in them. Doesn't take much to make me happy.

One scene I love in Idiot's Lantern is when Eddie, who bullies people by screaming "I AM TALKING!", tries that with the Doctor who screams right back, "AND I'M NOT LISTENING!"

And a nice little touch in The Pandorica Opens, the Doctor uses the same "I AM TALKING!" line in his Hello Stonehedge! speach, much more effectively I have to say.

Oh! I was thinking Fear Her when you said Idiot's Lantern. My bad.

An easy mistake to make, alas.

Who is advertising for an assistant script editor!!!

Tragically they mention the dread words 'tact and sensitivity' so there isn't really much POINT in me applying...

Well you know the Moff, so why not give it a crack?

I'm sure he won't remember me.

I suspect if he DID it would further reduce my chances...

Don't project on others your own insecurities. I suspect you would be a hard one to forget, in a good way. Try it, you have nothing to loose and everything to gain. And I'm sure you can fake the 'tact and sensitivity' thing long enough to get in.

How could he forget that lady at the Tavern who always hassled him about "Fireplace" inconsistencies in one breath whilst praising it in another....

ahem....

By Emily Carter (Emily) on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 8:30 am:
I finally pounced on poor Steve Moffat at the Tavern on Thursday. After expressing my adoration for GitF I confessed that I did have a slight problem with the whole leaving-Rose-to-starve-to-death thing....

...He then tried to pull rank by claiming that both he and Russell T Davies agreed the TARDIS had a Powell Estate switch, and they were canonical. I pointed out that, on the contrary, they were utterly uncanonical - what we saw on the screen was the Truth and THEY lyingly claimed to have MADE IT ALL UP. At which point Steve suggested we change the subject, and I left the poor bloke in peace. "

Still one of the most disgusting things Emily has ever admitted to on this page...

Confrontational maybe, even a touch psychotic, but disgusting?

I wonder if Emily got a visit from some officials who served her with a piece of paper, saying she had to stay at least fifty feet away from The Moff

Amanda- I might be a tad overstating it, but approaching a celeb and tearing strips off them is something I cannot abide. Here we have Mofatt having a pint at his local and some mad woman comes up and starts laying into him about an episode of a show he wrote.
Admittedly, she backed off but it makes my skin crawl to think of it.

Personaly, if I was responsible for the continued production of a popular TV show, I would welcome such intrusions, provided they are kept within the bounds of civility. I would never want to be isolated from that sort of feedback, or think of myself as too good to care about the lowly unimportant rabble. Look at what happened to George Lucas when he became so big that his own entourage was afraid to talk back to him. He came up with things like Jar Jar Binks and midichlorians and the generally crappy episodes 1, 2 and 3. Hiring someone like Emily could be just what Doctor Who needs to keep it real, creative and relevant.

Btw, what exactly is a Powell Estate switch?

And I'm sure you can fake the 'tact and sensitivity' thing long enough to get in.

IF ONLY I'd used a false name online all these years...

approaching a celeb and tearing strips off them is something I cannot abide.

He's not one of those stupid 'celeb' things, he's a DOCTOR WHO WRITER. And this must be the first time that offering someone a drink and telling them you worship them as a god before raising a valid issue with one of their scripts is regarded as tearing a strip off them.

Here we have Mofatt having a pint at his local

Er...no. It was the Fitzroy Tavern on the first Thursday of the month. I.e. the time and place that DOCTOR WHO FANS specifically come to TALK ABOUT DOCTOR WHO.

and some mad woman comes up and starts laying into him about an episode of a show he wrote.

What ON EARTH is so mad about - after complimenting him on the greatest episode in human history bar City of Death - complaining that the Doctor left Rose to starve to death on a grotty spaceship so he could go and shag a French prostitute?

It IS a bit out of character for Our Hero...

Admittedly, she backed off

Exactly. He got tired of the conversation; I left. And never approached him again during all his subsequent years at Tavern, mainly because I didn't have any such complaints about Blink or Silence in the Library.

but it makes my skin crawl to think of it.

Funny, cos I took an identical approach with Lawrence Miles (the complaint being 'Sarah Jane Morley' and HE didn't even TRY to bluff his way out of THAT one) and we're still best friends twelve years on...

Personaly, if I was responsible for the continued production of a popular TV show, I would welcome such intrusions, provided they are kept within the bounds of civility. I would never want to be isolated from that sort of feedback, or think of myself as too good to care about the lowly unimportant rabble.

Though I DO understand why Moffat has given Tavern a miss since becoming Executive Producer (quite apart from the whole living-in-Wales thing).

Hiring someone like Emily could be just what Doctor Who needs to keep it real, creative and relevant.

You're too kind. To be fair to Moffat, he DOES obviously get feedback from SOMEWHERE and he DOES reverse most of his insaner decisions (we haven't seen the monstrously bloated backsides of his Dalek disasters since Victory, and he even put back the 'Next Time' trailers for the Seaseon 6/32 DVDs...).

Btw, what exactly is a Powell Estate switch?

Moffat CLAIMED that Eccy rigged some switch on the console so it would take Rose home to mum whenever she pressed it. Sadly there is no on-screen evidence of this.

Is "estate" the British word for neighbourhood?

Judging from context, I think estate is the British word for housing project.

Moderator's Note: this article was originally written by Thomas Cookson on the Doctor Who Ratings Guide site. Do let me know if you object to it being nicked and I'll remove it.

The Graham Williams era is a pretty recognisable era of Doctor Who, remembered for its comical frivolity, K9 and Romana, and for being the epitome of the show's cheap and cheerful charm.

But it didn't find its identity immediately.

The Philip Hinchcliffe era had left very big shoes to fill. It had been the period where the show's consistency of quality had been at its highest, and indeed its most atypical. When judged against the Hinchcliffe era, a lot of the criticisms and faults of the Williams era stick out.

The Hinchcliffe era of Doctor Who was so darn dangerous. I mean, my first exposure to Doctor Who had come with Genesis of the Daleks, which was so bleak and open ended that it really changed the rules of storytelling for me. It gave me my perhaps-not-entirely-representational vision of Doctor Who as an expansive, harrowing and dangerous universe where galaxies can fall, evil remains unvanquished and anyone can die and even the Doctor can fail. Terror of the Zygons retains some of the most terrifying scenes for me. Masque of Mandragora makes pre-renaissance Italy feel just as savage and dangerous as any alien world.

Even watching with hindsight, there are moments where I truly believe the Doctor or Sarah might not survive.

Even the basic limitations of the show never quite got in the way. Many people can point and laugh at the bubblewrap in Ark in Space, but its symbiosis with a terrifying concept makes it look genuinely subversive and it feels skin crawling. The Hinchcliffe era did wonders with the show's limitations, and that is why low-rent, theatre-based stories like Brain of Morbius and Genesis of the Daleks can work on their own terms to be genuinely terrifying and apocalyptic.

And of course the Hinchcliffe era also reinvigorated some of Doctor Who's oldest foes and made them far more terrifying. The Daleks and the Master are made far more volatile and universe shattering than ever. But at the same time both remain open ended and the ball is left in the next producer's court as how to resolve or follow up the next appearance.

The Graham Williams era seems to rather botch the job. Mainly due to the fact that the horror and death has been heavily toned down thanks to the efforts of Mary Whitehouse. In this era the cheap effects seem cheaper, and the protagonists seem like feckless superheroes who never come under any believable real danger (Horror of Fang Rock excepted).

In terms of following up the Hinchcliffe era, the Graham Williams era was hit and miss. As I said, Horror of Fang Rock was a worthy homage to the previous era, and in fact I'd say it was actually far more frightening than most of the stories Hinchcliffe oversaw. One of the other leftovers from the Hinchcliffe era was the character of Leela.

Leela makes me nostalgic for the days when the young female viewers weren't interested in Rose blubbing about boyfriend issues, they were instead fascinated by this strong and volatile woman who was out of touch. Watching The Sunmakers makes me appreciate what Leela brought to the show in terms of a true dynamic and her own tribal ethics. In fact, in regards to that story, and Leela's tribal intuition for men (making her tendency to fall in love at first sight more plausible than it seems) I think it would have been more appropriate had she left the Doctor to marry Cordo (she definitely likes him) rather than that random guard in Invasion of Time.

With The Invasion of Time, Leela reached her end as a companion and the last vestiges of the previous era were cleared away. But at the same time it was a story that showed the failings of the Williams era. The show's budget was shrinking and The Invasion of Time was the runt of the litter. It is one story where the scenes in that school substituting for the studio make me too viewer-conscious to quite believe that this is the high civilisation of Gallifrey.

It didn't help matters that it had been a rushed script with a complete lack of urgency, a witless ending and some incoherent moments. The results were in places quite ugly. Without the air of urgency to the story, the moment where the Doctor eventually guns down the Sontarans seems uncalled for and leaves a not-so-nice aftertaste. Plus the scene where Leela and her rebel friends put harpoons in the backs of the Gallifreyan guards is irredeemably nasty and completely unmitigated. I could criticise The Sunmakers on similar grounds but the violence there is just too comical for me to feel offended.

But certainly the potential was there. The script featured some inspired ideas and Tom Baker's performance as the manipulative megalomaniac Doctor really puts Colin Baker to shame. I think they should have replaced the slot with a finished script, such as Terrance Dicks' unused State of Decay. But I also think they should have saved the story for another year, maybe as the introduction to Season 16. With a few script revisions and more money it could have been a fantastic story. I'd say replacing the Sontarans with the Daleks would have been a good move too for various reasons. Four Daleks taking over Gallifrey would be far more plausible and urgent, and the Doctor blowing them away would be a lot less queasy to watch.

But anyway, the way had been cleared for Graham Williams to stamp his own identity onto the show. And so came the idea of the Guardians and the Key to Time. The remit was to take the show's lore to the next level, above the Time Lords. The quest gave the season a sense of direction and cumulative narrative, and the idea of polarised elements and forces was very healthy for the stories and their sense of narrative integrity and morality.

The Key to Time Season is one of my favourite seasons of the show. It's up there with Season 13 and the 2005 season. It may go off the rails towards the end, but in terms of the first four serials it is pretty much impossible to isolate which is the best story. Everyone has their personal favourite. For me I would say it was The Pirate Planet, even if I acknowledge that Androids of Tara is in many ways a better piece of television. There were so many memorable moments of the season, such as the Doctor's angry confrontation with the Pirate Captain, the Romana/Fred gag, the walk the plank cliffhanger, the moving stones driving Romana off the cliff edge.

But, as I said, it does slightly lose the plot towards the end. Power of Kroll has gotten a reappraisal in recent years actually, but to me it is Robert Holmes' most stale story. It was the point in the season where I first lost interest in the Key to Time quest, and it seems to prove pretty much all of the Williams era criticisms right.

The scene where the Doctor and his companions are tied up by those shrinking weeds is a case in point of how the frivolity has overridden the gravity and it's hard to take the danger seriously to this invincible Doctor.

I ignored claims that Tom Baker was out of control in this era. I saw him as a master method actor who could do no wrong. Then I saw the scene in this story that made me realise how badly out of control he could be. It was that scene where he puts a cup in his pocket, whilst the rest of the actors are trying to make the illusion work. It's a petty and pointless piece of scene sabotaging that really made me think less of him as an actor. I mean I can watch it easy enough but it's my least favourite Williams story by a mile.

Conversely, I'm one of the few people who are quite fond of The Armageddon Factor as a conclusion. But I will say this, there was a major missed opportunity in this story that I'm amazed went unused. Williams wouldn't touch the Master with a barge pole, which is a shame because this was a perfect slot for him. After all he is the Doctor's antithesis and would have made a worthy Black Guardian agent, which in turn would explain his motivations.

I'm baffled that the Master wasn't introduced to take over the role of the Shadow in The Armageddon Factor. He could have felt really at home in this Frontier in Space-style space opera. He even looked like the Shadow in his emaciated form, and there could have been a perfect link to the miniaturisation device. In fact, the more I think about it, the more it baffles me that they didn't go for it. The opportunity was staring them in the eyes. Killing off the Master would have been a given since Williams didn't want to use the Master again, and after all the Master wasn't originally supposed to outlive the Pertwee era. So we could have been spared a dozen redundant rematches throughout the 80's.

But nevermind, it was then onto Season 17, and the opening story Destiny of the Daleks. Again judged against the Hinchcliffe era it is something of a poor sequel to Genesis. It was a mistake to revive Davros, particularly as arbitrarily as they did, and I feel it was also something of a bad move to bring down the universe-shattering impetus of Genesis by having the Daleks suddenly underfooted by offscreen events. But, with a bit more time and effort, it could have worked poetically. As it is it is certainly watchable and atmospheric, courtesy of some brilliant directing by Ken Grieve.

The Dalek advance is stopped by the Movellans, and in the Graham Williams tradition, this represents how two equal but opposite forces are both denied the upper hand and so peace and stability is maintained. Maybe even a cameo by the White Guardian at the end could have reinforced the theme about cosmic order. But to have that kind of polarity, it would need more of a narrative backbone. It would have needed a lot more tightening up and a more epic tone because as it is, it's just a very loose walk through of an adventure.

Season 17 really is the only season where there is no cumulative narrative at all. Gone is the issue of trying to get the companion home, or the issue of the Doctor's mysterious origins or the familiar backdrop of UNIT or an ongoing crusade against the Daleks, Cybermen or the Master. My flatmate (a big fan of Buffy and Lost) says that would give him no impetus to tune in to see what happens next week, but I find it very accessible for that reason. With City of Death the show had made perhaps its best example of a "preaching to the unconverted non-fans" story. It was also a masterpiece of narrative storytelling with wonderful twists.

As for the rest of the season, it never manages to be as sophisticated as City of Death. Creature from the Pit is the worst of the season and yet I find it very watchable indeed. Nightmare of Eden is another story that I've used to win over non-fans with success because it's just such fun. Horns of Nimon is actually my second favourite story of the season. There's just something about the Nimon that does it for me. Whilst the two leads are never placed in real danger, I keep watching because the fate of worlds still hangs in the balance. Alas the era never got its proper send off with Shada.

I would have loved Graham Williams to have stayed on as producer. I would certainly have liked to have seen him do Season 18 and finish off Shada. Certainly he already had scripts for Leisure Hive, Kinda and State of Decay waiting to be made and they would have made a grand season about death and ancient lore.

I can't hold back from saying it. I wish Graham Williams had held onto his role of producer and had not let the killjoy John Nathan-Turner era happen. I would rather that Graham Williams see the series to its dying days and give the show an air of finality.

Ideally, the show could have ended best under him with Warriors' Gate, with the show ending on its strangest note as the Doctor enters into a new realm where reality has gone sour. I suppose there's no guarantee that it would have gotten made under Williams, but if it had, I'd love to see the show end there with the Doctor joining Romana and the Tharills in N-space.

If the show's final days were to be remembered as the point where 'it all got silly', then I'd rather it be remembered for the Williams variety of silly than the 80's brand of silly. I can tear up the era's faults and missed marks, but I never tire of watching any given Williams era story, whether it be masterpieces like Fang Rock or City of Death, or lowbrow stories like The Sunmakers. I wouldn't jettison a single one of them, but I'd gladly jettison over half the JNT era stories. From a fan view, Nightmare of Eden and Horns of Nimon are now fondly remembered 'so bad they're good', serials. Twin Dilemma and Time and the Rani never will be because they're just eternally repellant.

At its worst, the JNT era couldn't even do farce properly. Time-Flight and Warriors of the Deep may be no less cheap than any given Williams story, but the fact that they're both so serious eliminates any potential fun factor, and simply leaves a major embarrassment at their earnestness juxtaposed with such pathetic acting and effects. Unlike Ark in Space there was nothing competent about them, let alone symbiotic.

Sure the JNT era started on a grand note. Season 18 was very impressive stuff, and Warriors' Gate was the show at its most avant garde, and for the first time in a long time the Doctor seemed vulnerable. But it started the era on the wrong note. After all, unlike the Williams era, Season 18 hadn't made a natural, organic development from the old era to its new niche. It had simply been dragged kicking and screaming into a high standards bar that couldn't be maintained.

It was inevitably going to fall to pieces.

Beyond Season 18 (and the odd highlight like Snakedance, Caves or Revelation), the JNT era was just incompetent. The show was sinking and only after the show hit absolutely rock bottom in Season 24 did the show regain its competence and its cheap and cheerful charm. Only then did the show realise that the Doctor and companion could have emotional depth and weaknesses, but not wallow in them. They still had to remain confident and proactive heroes to look up to. In so many ways, I could see Season 25 following on seamlessly from Season 17.

I believe that had the show carried on into the 80's under Graham Williams, Michael Grade would have still made sure of the cancellation crisis. But Graham Williams loved Doctor Who and so that wouldn't have caused him to delve the show into the kind of hideous self loathing that characterises Season 23.

The fannish monster parades would still be inevitable because of the popularity of DWM in the 80's. But I think the focus would squarely have been on fun. I could see Williams commissioning Five Doctors and Remembrance of the Daleks, but not Warriors of the Deep or other such pointless bloodbaths. Williams also wouldn't have overused the Master, nor done a season set entirely in a Gallifreyan courtroom. He would never have turned the show into a soap opera, or completely emancipated the Doctor, or given us dumb and obnoxious companions (or if he did he'd at least have done them with some irony), or made the stories humourless and lethargic, and would never have relied on cheap shock tactics a la Twin Dilemma.

Maybe Doctor Who had had its time in 1981, and rather than 'modernising' Doctor Who by making it cinematic, po-faced, ultraviolent and soap-like, John Nathan-Turner and Eric Saward would probably have been better off instead doing Terry Nation's criminally unmade Daleks spin-off series. That's the kind of show where those modernisms would fit like a glove and it would have been well aimed at the DWM generation, and the Star Wars boom of the time. It could have been something where melodramatic, vulnerable protagonists in a nasty Sawardiverse would coherently work on its own terms, and would compete and contrast with the more humoured, inclusive and whimsical Doctor Who as Williams had made it. The Williams and JNT eras were worlds apart and I'd say should have been treated as such.

So here's to the Williams era. The show would never be such fun again.

In this era the cheap effects seem cheaper

Well, they HAD to be cheaper. Inflation was running at 22% (or something).

and the protagonists seem like feckless superheroes who never come under any believable real danger (Horror of Fang Rock excepted).

Well, you could argue that the Doctor IS gonna survive no matter what, so at least the Williams era was being honest about it, whereas Hinchcliffe was lying to us (well, to you anyway - I honestly can't remember enough about my first viewings of these stories) almost as badly as Steven 'the entire universe has blown up and the Doctor's dead at Lake Silencio!' Moffat.

Leela makes me nostalgic for the days when the young female viewers weren't interested in Rose blubbing about boyfriend issues

*Embarrassed cough* Rose wasn't the only one blubbing about her boyfriend issues...is there ANYTHING more tragic than the Bad Wolf Bay scene (at least until it's ruined by Season 4)?

they were instead fascinated by this strong and volatile woman who was out of touch.

Yeah - here's hoping Moffat has the guts to make this Jenna person a Leela type. It's great seeing our society through SUCH fresh eyes, not to mention the comic potential.

Leela's tribal intuition for men (making her tendency to fall in love at first sight more plausible than it seems)

Not with bloody ANDRED it isn't!

I think it would have been more appropriate had she left the Doctor to marry Cordo (she definitely likes him) rather than that random guard in Invasion of Time.

Whereas I don't see why she should LEAVE to marry ANYONE. If she fancies someone, hit him over the head with a club and drag him into that TARDIS...

the idea of polarised elements and forces was very healthy for the stories and their sense of narrative integrity and morality.

*Scratches head* If you say so.

After all he is the Doctor's antithesis and would have made a worthy Black Guardian agent, which in turn would explain his motivations.

THAT'S not a bad idea at all. It would certainly be a better explanation for our dear old Master than the Doctor selling his soul to the Goddess Death (Master audio), being betrayed by his Companion (Dark Path MA), or, of course, hearing some hitherto unsuspected drum noises...

Killing off the Master would have been a given since Williams didn't want to use the Master again, and after all the Master wasn't originally supposed to outlive the Pertwee era. So we could have been spared a dozen redundant rematches throughout the 80's.

SPARED! I don't want to be SPARED our wonderful Master! Well, aside from King's Demons, obviously. And Timeflight, of course. And OK, Planet of Fire was a bit stupid...

Um, it's just possible you may have a point, here...

As for the rest of the season, it never manages to be as sophisticated as City of Death.

Understatement of the MILLENNIUM.

Horns of Nimon is actually my second favourite story of the season. There's just something about the Nimon that does it for me.

That IS a bit weird.

I wish Graham Williams had held onto his role of producer and had not let the killjoy John Nathan-Turner era happen.

I have considerable sympathy with that statement (I'm pretty sure we'd've hung on to Tom for longer, for starters), but he might have ended up even worse than JNT after DECADES in the job...

I'd love to see the show end there with the Doctor joining Romana and the Tharills in N-space.

You'd WHAT?!

You'd ROB us of a FULL DECADE of Who??? There was some utterly classic stuff in 80s Who as well as some unbelievably dire stuff. And how much more difficult it would have been to resurrect our show after the TWENTY-SIX Long And Barren Years Of Despair...

(And it's E-Space, by the way.)

I wouldn't jettison a single one of them, but I'd gladly jettison over half the JNT era stories. From a fan view, Nightmare of Eden and Horns of Nimon are now fondly remembered 'so bad they're good', serials. Twin Dilemma and Time and the Rani never will be because they're just eternally repellant.

Good point.

Sure the JNT era started on a grand note. Season 18 was very impressive stuff

Well, aside from the boring Leisure Hive, the rubbish Meglos and the excruciatingly tedious, incomprehensible and Tom-murdering Logopolis...

Williams also wouldn't have overused the Master

Or used him at all...

So here's to the Williams era. The show would never be such fun again.

Well, it's never - quite - reached the heights of City of Death again. But the vast majority of New Who has extraordinary amounts of fun.

Graham Williams is now my LEAST FAVOURITE HUMAN EVER. From a DWM interview:

'If anybody ever mentioned the possibility of repeating stories with other Doctors...I always resisted, especially if it was just for a Summer repeat. I thought, "If we're finished in April and coming back in September, what's the point of reminding the audience that somebody else played the part if the same guy's coming back next time?"' - the POINT, you criminally insane cretin, was to give UNTOLD JOY to the Fans who would otherwise have to wait DECADES for the invention of the video machine, pitifully sobbing and clutching their Target novelisations...

To be fair to Williams this was the attitude of pretty much every Doctor Who producer up until 1981.

Incidentally this post from last year - "ditto Graham Williams who committed suicide in 1990" - is wholly wrong and inappropriate. He was actually killed in a shooting accident at his hotel in Devon.

Kate, most Who people think that "shooting accident" is a euphemism for suicide, particularly as Williams was well known to be depressed in the months leading up to his death.

To be fair to Williams

Do I LOOK like I want to be fair to Williams?

Williams was well known to be depressed in the months leading up to his death.

As well he SHOULD be.

Most people do not think that "shooting accident" is a euphemism for suicide. Williams organised shoots at his hotel and was hit by accident during one.

“I was and remain 'Old Labour' and an unrepentant supporter of unions in principle and in practice. On the day when no worker needs the help and protection of other workers against unconcerned and/or rapacious employers I will cheer myself hoarse. Since I don’t believe in an afterlife however I can say with absolute certainty I shall never see that particular dawn.” -- Chris Boucher.

That's sweet - I'll endeavour to hate Chris Boucher less, though with the memory of his last three PDAs seared into my consciousness, that'll be an uphill task.

Of course, most of the BBC WAS left-wing - in fact, the Daily Mail (ghastly rabid right-wing rag) recently ran the following article on Who trying to bring down the Tories...a mere twenty years late...:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1250940/BBC-scriptwriters-tried-use-Doctor-Who-bring-Margaret-Thatcher.html

Mind you, Boucher was wrong about the unions. OBVIOUSLY I don't approve of Thatcher grinding them into the dust, but they were utterly out of control - those two blokes in Warriors Gate were NOTHING compared to the real thing - who'd strike at the drop of a hat, AND WHO COST US SHADA.

Barry Letts in DWM 250:

'I'm what I call a sub-clinical manic dperessive. I'm either high as a kite, or I'm on a real down.'

'I have two halves to my brain - one side believes all this [life after death] absolutely, and the other half is severely agnostic.'

Well, I suppose that helps explain how he can be our Tom-finding hero one minute, and the author of Ghosts of N-Space and Deadly Reunion the next...

Mind you, Boucher was wrong about the unions. OBVIOUSLY I don't approve of Thatcher grinding them into the dust, but they were utterly out of control - those two blokes in Warriors Gate were NOTHING compared to the real thing - who'd strike at the drop of a hat, AND WHO COST US SHADA.

I for one applaud what Mrs. Thatcher did. Finally, someone had the guts to stand up to those unions and take them down. They had brought Britain to the brink of ruin and had to be stopped.

Too bad we don't have more leaders like Thatcher who are not afraid to take on these anochronistic holdovers from an earlier generation (most unions rules date from the 1940's and 50's, and reflect a world that is long gone).

Notice that even when Thatcher was gone, the unions never tried to rebuild the power they once had. They knew that time was gone, and would not be coming back.

That's right, Mrs Thatcher's success at dismantling Britain's manufacturing base, forcing through deregulation, and creating vast swathes of permanent unemployment for short-term political and financial gain is the reason that the UK is the world-beating economic powerhouse it is today!

Yeah - this is the woman who sent the SAS to train the Khmer Rouge how to kill. She tended to...overdo things. Helen A wasn't nearly as insane as the person she was SUPPOSED to be satirising...

Now, now, this is not the place for a conservative-liberal politics debate.

Quite right too. The Doctor never bothers to vote so why should WE care about such things? The closest HE'S ever come to a political statement is drinking Lloyd George under the table...

Wonder what he thinks of LG vs Churchill?

'We won't have our scripts interfered with' - Jane. Of Pip n'Jane fame. In DWM. Well, THAT explains A LOT.

'We wouldn't change anything about our Doctor Who episodes' - dear God the last time I heard anything THAT stupid it was Tony Blair saying he didn't regret the invasion of Iraq.

They refused to write any more scripts for Sylvester McCoy. How dare they? HOW DARE THEY???

Oh, wait. Why am I complaining...

'There was something about that show. It promised you the moon, it gave you a jolly good thrill and ended you up lying in the gutter looking at the stars wondering what had hit you' - Christopher Bidmead.

God I want to work on Who.

Great article in DWM in 1999 about how to bring back Who - especially amusing with the benefit of hindsight.

Lance Parkin (the only interviewee who DIDN'T end up writing for New Who in TV) saying that 'the return of Doctor Who does feel rather like the inevitable punchline of a very long joke'.

RTG saying that he'd compromise his principles to have a cheaper, Earth-bound series, that the Saturday tea-time slot has been 'consigned to history' and it would be weekday evenings at 8pm.

Paul Cornell saying 'No more cliffhangers!' and 'almost certainly not the Daleks' and 'continuity would have to be ignored...[which] would, in the end, mean ditching it and overwriting it.'

Gareth Roberts saying 'God knows there's room for a pacifist, sex-less hero. It's the unique selling point...however, there'd need to be a deeper emotional context to the Doctor/assistant relationship.'

RTG and Moffat both saying they'd dump the whole Gallifrey/Time Lord thing. Moffat saying 'Us kids want Narnia, not the wardrobe', 'It's a kids show' and 'Too much fun ever to grow out of'. Not to mention 'I don't think young, dashing Doctors are right at all.'

RTG saying 'God help anyone in charge of bringing it back - what a responsibility!'...

JN-T once told a DWAS convention that it
wasn't impossible to see the Doctor surviving beyond a thirteenth incarnation. And for this, on leaving the convention stage, he received a warm ovation on his exit. (At least I think that's what it was for, but I haven't read the DWM interview; I assume he wasn't implying that he would be Producer Perpetual, a kind of production team Borusa.)

Gallifrey Base:

'The new man in charge of the BBC has paid tribute to Doctor Who on his first day as Editor in Chief of the Corporation, the man ultimately responsible for everything broadcast.'

My, how times change...

'Mad Eric! Eric had an obsession with Cybermen, to a sinister extent. It was like writing a show where the producer's girlfriend is playing a part, and he keeps saying, "Mabel hasn't done much recently." Eric would always be saying, "I think we need the Cybermen to come in here." I noticed he had a Cyberman helmet and boots hanging on the back of the office door, and I said, "You dress up in them when you're alone, don't you?"' - Terrance Dicks in DWM. Ah, bless! Eric Saward has SO gone up in my estimation.

Listen to Terrance Dicks' commentary on The Five Doctors and he expands on that theme.

Ooh, I will!

Gallifrey Base has just claimed that Russell T God got MARRIED last week! I'm assuming they mean civil partnered, as gay marriage is still inexplicably illegal in this country (though not for much longer). Well, it's about time He made an honest man of that bloke who's been so patient and never once distracted Him from Who (unlike Moffat's wife-and-children nonsense, who I blame for the fact HE seems singularly incapable of blessing us with fourteen episodes a year).

Um, anyway...this is my way of saying congratulations, RTG!

Great interview with Moffat:

http://www.vulture.com/2012/12/steven-moffat-doctor-who-sherlock-interview.html?mid=twitter_vulture

If anyone says "Oh, it was a bit dull this week" is when the show will start to die.

Clearly the Moff hasn't been reading Emily's posts on nit-C then...

Oi! When have I EVER said that an episode of Moffat-Who is dull?? Godawful, in the case of Black Spot, but not dull...

Gareth Roberts in DWM: 'In a recent interview, 1970s producer Philip Hinchcliffe said that the starting point for all his Doctor Who stories was "Can we actually do this?" There is a general air of caution about most...1960s and 70s stories...But we must be thankful that this blindingly obvious proviso never really seemed to spark during the 1980s. "Yes, we can do Concorde crash-landing on a barren prehistoric landscape, no problem!"...'

But then this IS the guy to whom 'The sight of Dobbin from Rentaghost covered in wet green paint stomping down corridors is a treasured memory.'

'Phil [Collinson] tells DWM that during his time on Doctor Who he ensured hats were rarely seen in the show ("I hate hats!")' - my god, HE'S the monster who ensured our darling Eccy BARELY COUNTS as a True Doctor thanks to his bare-headed status...

RTG in his early DWM Production Notes, about the discovery of Tomb of the Cybermen: 'My head secretly fell off. Sorry, Shirley, they've what? They've found it? Really? Sorry, that's my head, it just fell off, just kick it to the side, have they really found it, Shirley, have they really, HAVE THEY???'

And on meeting Peter Davison: 'I was good. I behaved. I talked about the Braithwites, and the state of telly, and how we'd been robbed, until I couldn't maintain the pretence any longer. I just broke. At 2.30 in the morning, in a crowded bar of brash telly-folk, I whimpered, "I love Doctor Who." There was a silence. The great man looked at me with such wisdom and sadness, then said kindly, "Yes, I thought you had that glint in your eye.'"

Is it just me, or has our Living God, whilst OBVIOUSLY still being a Grade A Fanatic, had a LITTLE of the stuffing knocked out of him by five years of actually RUNNING THE PROGRAMME?

Sometimes, having one's dreams fulfilled is the best way of killing them.

Well, I wouldn't say it KILLED His dreams, but He's been AWFULLY QUIET since...I don't recall a single 'Hooray!' over Moffat Who...

Eric Saward on THAT 80s Who problem:

'The lighting was generally terrible. The lighting problems were often commented upon by writers and directors. The official line was always "this is the BBC house style"...[there was a massive row] because someone was trying to be creative for a change and light something atmospherically! We had in an award-winning lighting designer and JNT objected to the extra minutes being used to set it all up. He saw it as a waste of time...He used to get annoyed when someone pointed out something that hadn't come into his general field of conception...'

I heard a rumor today, on Space Channel, that Peter Jackson has expressed the desire to direct a Doctor Who episode. He supposedly added that he would do it for free if necessary.

He'll probably want to film it in New Zealand and he'll have so much extra footage that it'll end up being a three-parter. ;-)

Doctor Who meets Frodo

The Doctor as Gandalf, a guest companion as Bilbo, the Master as Gollum, some alien as Smaug...

The whole thing just plagerizes itself, really. ;-)

And they could have another Doctor(maybe McCoy) come back as another wizard.

No,wait--that's already been done.

The Mill is to close! Partly because of there being no new series of Who this year! God, I hope Moffat's SORRY when we're back to Taran Wood Beasts and Giant Rats and Myrkas...

Saward in DWM: 'I remember John [Nathan-Turner] saying "I'd love to use Terence [Dudley] more, but I can't. If he wants a monster to move, he puts it on a piece of string and drags it along."' - ah, bless!

Pixley's 'Scheduled For Success' article in DWM: 'Barry Letts drafted outlines for the first two 45-minute episodes of Snowy Black, a potential Doctor Who replacement about the misadventures of an Australian in London' - a WHAT about WHAT! BARRY LETTS IS A TRAITOR TO WHO!!

"Saward in DWM: 'I remember John [Nathan-Turner] saying "I'd love to use Terence [Dudley] more, but I can't. If he wants a monster to move, he puts it on a piece of string and drags it along."' - ah, bless!"

What nonsense! Nothing in 'Meglos' looks remotely as professional as that!

Note to Eric Saward: We get it, you hate John Nathan-Turner. However, it's been THIRTY YEARS! Dude, let it go.

'Russell is terribly fastidious about spoilers so we'll have these ridiculous conversations where I'll start talking about the story and he'll say, "No, no! Don't spoil me!" And I'll say, "But you're the f****ing executive producer!"...God help you if you've got two fans working on a show' - Moffat in DWM. Adorable. Also deeply helpful in explaining how he got away with turning Girl in the Fireplace into (his words, not mine) 'Doctor Who Gets Laid!'

''Without David Whitaker, the Doctor would just have a time machine. Instead, he has a TARDIS. Whitaker is undoubtedly a strange man. A madman, really. You have to be to write alchemical science fiction in 1967. Which is, of course, why he's the most important writer the show has ever seen...the one who created its soul. David Whitaker: a madman with a box' - TARDIS Eruditorum.

That's very sweet but it'll still be a cold day in hell before I forgive him for Edge of Destruction.

I thought Verity Lambert was producer back then.

How many of the substandard writers openly despised Who?

'Grimwade was clever, catty and neurotic and didn't hide that he felt Doctor Who beneath him.' (JNT biography)

Davison on Terence Dudley: 'He'd written some stupid story about the brother in the attic and turned it into a Dcotor Who whereas in fact it was just a bit of nonsense. I could not stand the man. The trouble is that he had such contempt for the programme.'

It's deeply unfair to describe Terence Dudley as a substandard writer.

He was a substandard writer and director!

Didn't Peter Davison know that Charlotte Bronte came up with this concept more than a century before Terence Dudley?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Eyre

I'm not sure that "Peter Davison is wrong about Black Orchid because it bears a vague similarity to Jane Eyre" is an effective riposte.

Still, say what you like about Dudley, he must have had something if Verity Lambert thought he would be suitable to write the first ever Doctor Who story.

He WHAT!

Still, what does Verity Lambert know about what makes a good first story? She commissioned the caveman-obsessed loony who keeps suing everyone.

Peter Davison is wrong about Black Orchid because it bears a vague similarity to Jane Eyre

More than vague, almost identical. You have someone who's gone made (George Cranleigh/Bertha Rochester), locked away in a forbidden part of the house. All outsiders are told George/Bertha is dead. George/Bertha sets fire to the house and ends up falling to their death off the roof.


Still, what does Verity Lambert know about what makes a good first story? She commissioned the caveman-obsessed loony who keeps suing everyone.

She's earned her place in Who history by being the first producer.

"Still, what does Verity Lambert know about what makes a good first story? She commissioned the caveman-obsessed loony who keeps suing everyone."

Actually she didn't. It was already on the blocks when she arrive. She hated it and wanted to replace it with something else, so she asked Terence Dudley to come up with something but declined.

"More than vague, almost identical."

And this means that Davison is talking out of his hat... how exactly?

"'Grimwade was clever, catty and neurotic and didn't hide that he felt Doctor Who beneath him.' (JNT biography)"

So, why did he keep writing for it then?

And this means that Davison is talking out of his hat... how exactly?

I'm not saying that. I'm merely suggesting Mr. Davison was misinformed of his facts.

"'Grimwade was clever, catty and neurotic and didn't hide that he felt Doctor Who beneath him.' (JNT biography)"

So, why did he keep writing for it then?


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

"I'm not saying that. I'm merely suggesting Mr. Davison was misinformed of his facts."

How was he misinformed of his facts? Terence Dudley wrote a script that he thought was rubbish. He claims that Dudley didn't originally write it for Doctor Who, which I suppose may be inaccurate but the existence of Jane Eyre has no bearing on that one way or the other.

'That's a battle you often have as a director, a kind of internal battle. Am I being too clever for my own good? Is the shot actually going to help the story, or is it just going to hold it up while everyone admires my directing?' - director of stupid Flesh story in DWM. SO not convinced. The fact one finds oneself thinking 'God, this is well-directed' during Blink in no way detracts from one's enjoyment of an excellent story. And having that beautiful shot of the TARDIS reflected in a puddle in Night Terrors doesn't HOLD UP the story, it just gives us ONE happy moment during that total waste-of-space.

Poor little RTD was traumatised by the wicked Queen in "Snow White" at an early age, but eventually got his revenge by casting her as a series of villainesses in "Doctor Who"..
That's the only way to explain he's seeming hatred for middled aged females

He doesn't HATE 'em! He just thinks they'd make good strong villains. And he's right. Of course, with them all over RTG's Who AND SJA AND Moffat's Who, one grows a little tired of 'em, but still...

Anthony Coburn used to stand at Speaker's Corner making public proclamations about Catholicism? (DWM.) Interesting he didn't manage to smuggle any of THAT nonsense into Who. (Or at least into An Unearthly Child. He certainly did his best with Masters of Luxor.)

...Oh.

'The character of the Doctor was based on Tony's cultural hero, St Paul'.

Oh. Dear.

The misogynistic homophobic pro-slavery genocidal maniac who basically founded Christianity and ruined the lives of 2,000-years-worth of women?

Wow. No wonder Our Hero is telling SARAH JANE to make some coffee over a decade later...or saying River's changable 'because she's a woman' almost FIVE decades later...

I'm surprised, Emily, that YOU never stood at Speaker's Corner, demanding the return of Doctor Who during the SLABYOD.

I know. I was so derelict in my duty. I also went to Africa a couple of times without ONCE searching a SINGLE TV station. Honestly, I'm the epitome of that old joke 'How many Doctor Who fans does it take to change a lightbulb?' 'None. They just sit around waiting for it to come back on.'

'Something which I greatly disliked in Doctor Who [was] borrowed plots. I absolutely loathed riding on the back of other people's stories, that sort of "nudge, nudge, do you recognise this?" For me, Doctor Who was entirely unique' - Bidmead being a pompous git in DWM. Has he not realised that one of the things that makes Who so unique is that it CAN steal plots from all over and give 'em a twist?

'I always hated Doctor Who monsters' - er...was there anything about Who you actually LIKED?

'The most important principle of Doctor Who [is] the ultimate, utter importance of the scientific method' - ha ha ha ha ha!

Bidmead being a pompous git

You're only realizing this now, Emily? Rodney and I have been saying this for ages.

I suppose I had my suspicions, from watching his episodes, but I hadn't really heard anything from the horse's mouth.

Emily - Has he not realised that one of the things that makes Who so unique is that it CAN steal plots from all over and give 'em a twist?
That's a strength of science fiction in general, but then you have to watch other shows to realize that.

I wonder how Steven Moffat will ultimately be judged by the fans.

Reading some of the comments here, part of me fears he'll wind up being regarded by fans the same way Rick Berman and Marti Noxon are (Wikipedia and IMDB are your friends).

I really hope that doesn't happen.

or Mike Scully

The Williams era suffered most from the deliberate move to less violence and horror and more adventure and jokey humour. The first year still had strong elements of what made the Hinchcliffe stuff so very good (Fang Rock, Fendahl and Invisible Enemy is a pretty good SF story).

But there's a clear decline after that and 79-80, aside from City of Death (which is actually witty) the show really suffers a lot from excessive jokiness and an out of control Tom Baker. I suspect that had a very demoralising effect on all concerned. I think if I;d been involved in the show at all and seen it decline from stuff like Weng-Chiang to Nimon I think I'd have adopted a "why bother" attitude too! Now I actually happen to have a great fondness for Horns of Nimon personally, but I can see why people involved in it;s production woul dhave been lead to despair. It;s pure panto from first to last, with Crowden vying with Baker for "wildy over the top wacky overacting award of the year", all twirling moustache villain, the absolutely lousy Nimon costumes with the poor sods tottering around on high heels, etc.

With JNT there was a deliberate effort to recapture the show's serious side
I wouldn't say that special effects wise, the Williams era was really much worse that that which preceded or followed it. It's probably that in that period they compared more and more unfavourably with films in the cinema and big budget TV series - notably, Space: 1999, followed by the US shows riding on the wave of SF interest with Battlestar Galactica and Buck Rogers.

Doctor Who could simply not begin to compete with those. I think it generally maintained it's own standards, but saw it's contemporary competition dramatically improve theirs - mostly due to having budgets and time Who could only dream of. It still had the stories and the characters - imagine Nightmare of Eden with a Battlestar Galactica budget...

The Williams era suffered most from the deliberate move to less violence and horror and more adventure and jokey humour

The reason that happened is that the BBC, for reasons unknown, caved in to Mary Whitehouse and her crew of old biddies. Who the hell died and made them Lord of All Creation?

DWM interview with Neil Cross:

'I want to say it was a great existential burden, writing Dotor Who, but it was just a joy!' - huh. Glad SOMEONE got some pleasure out of Hide.

'Obviously, an inevitable by-product of an episode being different is some fans won't respond so well' - er, actually, DWM, it's the fact that RINGS OF AKHATEN IS A GODAWFUL PILE OF •••• that produces this particular inevitable by-product.

'I had one message from a girl telling me it had changed her mind about suicide...the people who did like Rings, love it more than anything else I'd ever written!' - Sunshine, Rings probably changed a LOT of people's minds about suicide...

'The thematic bucket of vomit that I've been chained to since I was about nine, is the moral complexity of anti-heroism' - nice way of phrasing things...

writing Dotor Who

Dotor Who?? What's that?

Ooh, I've just found Eric Saward's interview 'The Revelations of a Script Editor' online. Nothing that he says seems particularly inflammatory from the viewpoint of hindsight, though I can understand why fandom went nuts (under the circumstances it's more certainly more forgiveable than the hysteria that surrounded the Private Eye columns a couple of years ago).

But the most striking thing is how much - in the accompanying photo - Saward looks like latterday Alan Partridge.

Found it WHERE online?

http://www.combom.co.uk/2011/07/eric-saward-interview-from-starburst-97.html

Interesting, lively article. I have somewhat more sympathy for Saward after it than before. Even if I disagree with pretty much anything he says that's not directly JNT-related.

Vengeance on Varos, Two Doctors and Revelation of the Daleks are 'very comic stories'?

Resurrection of the Daleks is 'the worst Who story ever written'? (I'd say how sweet and modest of him, but it's GOT to be disingenuous. Or this bloke REALLY hasn't watched much Who.)

'Of course Bob Holmes just fell on the floor laughing because it was so bloody stupid' - Throwing in every Doctor n'monster for an anniversary story was a MARVELLOUS idea. Beats the hell out of sticking to two or three (depending on whether you count Hurt or not) Doctors and a couple of monsters, I can tell you.

'A witty, interesting, amusing script comes out as just so much... merely wallpaper' - look, I'm not saying the direction HELPED, but you can't possibly blame it for the fact Two Docs is unpleasant boring rubbish.

Resurrection of the Daleks is 'the worst Who story ever written'? (I'd say how sweet and modest of him, but it's GOT to be disingenuous. Or this bloke REALLY hasn't watched much Who.)

To be fair to him, this interview dates from 1986 and they hadn't made 'The Rings of Akhaten' yet.

They had, however, already made The Dominators.

I'm still waiting for the 90 minute special Sixie Gets It - 90 minutes of Colin Baker having his goolies kicked by Emily.

I don't want to TORTURE him, exactly.

I just want him to DIE and turn into Sylvester McCoy.

Emily - Vengeance on Varos, Two Doctors and Revelation of the Daleks are 'very comic stories'?
There are humorous moments in all of them. I wonder if there was more humor in the scripts that got lost turning them into episodes?

Boy reading some of those things about JNT made me wonder why the BBC didn't relieve him of his duties for unprofessional behavior?
Did they have an attitude of "He's a producer now so we'll ignore his "eccentricities" unless he really messes things up"?

There are humorous moments in all of them.

There are humorous moments in EVERY Who story.

Even The Dominators.

Did they have an attitude of "He's a producer now so we'll ignore his "eccentricities" unless he really messes things up"?

I suspect they had the attitude 'We want to kill Doctor Who and he's just the man to do it for us'...

Post-Marson's book I've come to the conclusion that the BBC post-1984 just wanted rid of JN-T, but couldn't sack him and didn't want to risk moving him to another series, so just let him run Doctor Who down until it could be cancelled and they could finally give him the boot. Everyone else who came and went during this period, particularly Saward and Colin Baker, seems to have been collateral.

If they had known of any of Nathan-Turner's extra-curricular activities, e.g. using Doctor Who personnel and time to his private pantos, that would have given them the excuse they needed to sack him. Ditto sexual activity on BBC premises. Double ditto if it was illegal sex activity. So I can't imagine Grade or Powell knew - or could prove - any of this.

There are humorous moments in EVERY Who story.

Even The Dominators.

But only if you're drunk when watching it.

Hey! 'Just act stupid, Jamie. Do you think you can manage that?' is hilarious even when sober!

I just noticed that Kate's username is Kitten. I'm having American fifties sitcom flashbacks! Does she have a pre-teen little brother called Sport?

Why on Earth would she have a pre-teen little brother called Sport?

Surely she's the daughter of Thomas Kincade Brannigan and has SEVERAL siblings AND a pink ribbon round her neck...?

Emily: it's a cliche that fathers on 1950s American sitcoms called their teenaged daughters Kitten. ("Daddy, I've got a pimple!" "Don't worry, Kitten, it's hardly noticeble"")

Gosh what a sad and bitter man Saward was/is. So typical that he blames everyone else but doesn't afford the same courtesy to himself. In regards to the end of "Trial" I concur with JNT- ending it the way Saward suggested (the Doctor and the Master falling into infinity battling each other) was moronic. The fact is that Saward- as much as JNT- was as much to blame as anyone else. I don't doubt the stories that Saward tells in this interview but seeing JNT interviewed on the "Trials and Tribulations" doco on the Trial dvd does shed some light on the other side.

I concur with JNT- ending it the way Saward suggested (the Doctor and the Master falling into infinity battling each other) was moronic

That's a peculiar attitude, because JN-T had signed off on that ending several months earlier, and only changed his mind at the last minute.

Emily - There are humorous moments in EVERY Who story.
Well, yes, but it seemed like the humor was tied in more with the actual story rather than a random phrase or ad lib.

Vengeance On Varos had the "laughing at how stupid our viewers are" stuff.

The Two Doctors had "humor" related to eating.

Revelation of the Daleks had... well, I have the sinking feeling that we were supposed to find the obnoxious DJ "hilarious".

I'm beginning to suspect that Saward's sense of humor involves pushing people into acid pits and bashing people's heads in with rocks...

Kitten - If they had known of any of Nathan-Turner's extra-curricular activities, e.g. using Doctor Who personnel and time to his private pantos, that would have given them the excuse they needed to sack him. Ditto sexual activity on BBC premises.
That's assuming JNT was the only producer pulling those kinds of shenanigans. If he was one of many, the BBC might be hesitant to single him out for punishment as he might reveal other producers doing the same or similar things. So until he did something big they might just look the other way so they could pull a Captain Renard if it all came out.

Obligatory Emily Explanation^TM: In the movie Casablanca Captain Renard is ordered to close down Rick's.
Renard: I'm shocked! Shocked to discover there's gambling here!
Waiter: Your winnings, sir.
Renard: (takes money) Thank you.

That's assuming JNT was the only producer pulling those kinds of shenanigans.

It might have been hard to pull off a dismissal for improper conduct on BBC premises until there'd been a formal complaint from someone (though I'm sure one could have been arranged, if only the top brass had known about it), while keeping the "one bad apple" narrative.

But his extra-curricular activities on BBC time were genuine and unambiguously a sackable offence that would have rebounded on him and him alone. I suspect the Beeb did know about this (they could hardly not notice, when he kept going on Saturday Superstore to talk about his pantos) but just couldn't find a smoking gun on him.

If you want something really scary... what if JNT had lived and become the producer of the New Series?

it's a cliche that fathers on 1950s American sitcoms called their teenaged daughters Kitten.

Ah, I SEE.

Gods, I'm just SO LUCKY to be a Who Fan.

My Doctor would NEVER call his daughter Kitten. (Get her killed, yes. Threaten his granddaughter with a smacked bottom, yes. But no 'Kitten' or 'Sport' nonsense.)

In regards to the end of "Trial" I concur with JNT- ending it the way Saward suggested (the Doctor and the Master falling into infinity battling each other) was moronic.

Yeah, but it would probably have been better than what we actually GOT.

And at least it would have given the Doc an excuse for crawling out of infinity looking like Sylvester McCoy...

And, let's face it, whether or not the PTB were gonna cancel Who after Trial was not dependant on its ending (or any of the rest of its contents, going by the fact they DIDN'T cancel it.)

seeing JNT interviewed on the "Trials and Tribulations" doco on the Trial dvd does shed some light on the other side.

I'll give it a whirl sometime - which disc?

it seemed like the humor was tied in more with the actual story rather than a random phrase or ad lib.

Vengeance On Varos had the "laughing at how stupid our viewers are" stuff.

I don't remember that.

The Two Doctors had "humor" related to eating.

DWM has just informed me that the 'Shepherd's Pie' joke WAS an ad-lib.

Revelation of the Daleks had... well, I have the sinking feeling that we were supposed to find the obnoxious DJ "hilarious".

PLEASE NO.

I'm beginning to suspect that Saward's sense of humor involves pushing people into acid pits and bashing people's heads in with rocks...

And, no doubt, people's toupees falling off after they've been brutally stabbed.

If you want something really scary... what if JNT had lived and become the producer of the New Series?

Never gonna happen.

We got Who back because Fans took over several senior positions in the BBC and brought it back, at grave risk to their own careers, to be THE BEST. And Fans know that JNT was...not the best.

We got Who back because Fans took over several senior positions in the BBC and brought it back, at grave risk to their own careers

I think that may be overstating the case slightly.

And given JN-T's determination to get involved in every Doctor Who-related media product after he'd got it cancelled, I imagine that at the very least he would have tried to wangle himself a 'consultant' post on New Who.

He could have been Ian Levine for the 21st century.

JN-T against RTD. Clash of the egos. Could have been epic!

Me - Vengeance On Varos had the "laughing at how stupid our viewers are" stuff.
Emily - I don't remember that.
Hmmm... well I remembered that that there was a couple watching TV & just assumed it was about viewers. Although thinking it over I guess it was more about voters.

DWM has just informed me that the 'Shepherd's Pie' joke WAS an ad-lib.
Yes, but I don't think Two & the Androgum going to the restaurant was.

Philip Seagal managed to keep JNT away from the Telemovie.

Being based on a different continent probably helped, but was no defence against Jean-Marc Lofficier.

Philip Seagal managed to keep JNT away from the Telemovie.

May not have been as good as we think. JNT possibly could have had weird continuity problems like the Doctor being half human, or the Eye of Harmony being in the TARDIS, removed from the movie.

Giz us a job, Russell! - JNT in an alternate universe.

We got Who back because Fans took over several senior positions in the BBC and brought it back, at grave risk to their own careers

I think that may be overstating the case slightly.

I've spoken to people at Tavern who helped bring it back and THEY mentioned men cracking open the champagne at the propect of Lorraine Heggessey and Jane Tranter (WORSHIP THEM!) being out of a job shortly.

Of course, RTG cheerily admits in DWM that it wasn't such a risk for HIM, on the grounds that there are so few good TV writers he'd have to screw up several programmes in a row to be out on his ear.

JN-T against RTD. Clash of the egos. Could have been epic!

For some reason I find myself thinking of THAT Captain Jack/Captain John encounter in the bar...

DWM has just informed me that the 'Shepherd's Pie' joke WAS an ad-lib.
Yes, but I don't think Two & the Androgum going to the restaurant was.

Yeah, but that wasn't even TRYING to be funny. (Hell, I HOPE it wasn't. Was it?)

Philip Seagal managed to keep JNT away from the Telemovie.

May not have been as good as we think. JNT possibly could have had weird continuity problems like the Doctor being half human, or the Eye of Harmony being in the TARDIS, removed from the movie.

Oh god, what an epitaph for our poor telemovie. 'So bad that having JNT involved would actually have IMPROVED it...'

Yeah, but that wasn't even TRYING to be funny. (Hell, I HOPE it wasn't. Was it?)

I think it was meant to be.

The dressing up almost certainly was meant to be comic.

From the point where the second Doctor starts talking about food to just before Oscar gets killed feels like it was trying to be funny.

Bugger. Now we can't get Moffat deported.

Phew.

(Of course, it's so typical that I learn about the Scottish Referendum results on Nitcentral rather than an actual NEWS SITE. Doctor Who comes first. Even when it's my country and my job at stake.)

I still think Groundskeeper Willie should be the new First Minister of Scotland.

Just for the hebe jeebies he'd give Westminster...

The Moff: 'It's sometimes surprising what they can pull off - and what they can't pull off. They'll say, "No we can't do that cocktail party at night, it's ridiculous, lots of extras, but that bit where the giant mutant space badger hatches in the middle of Big Ben? We can do that!"'

After what he went through with the telemovie, Phil Segal said he didn't know how JNT managed to stay sane through nine years of producing Who.

Are we sure JNT did stay sane? ;-)

If 'blackmailing Ian Levine into having sex with you' isn't the dictionary definition of insane, I don't know what is.

'Davies told Gay Times last year that he plans to devote the rest of his career to writing gay drama.' - The Guardian.

OK, it's not the end of the universe. All in favour of turning Doctor Who into a gay drama? *Raises hand*

God, the budget for Season One in Lime Grove was pissweak... running on the spot against a scrolling background while stagehands bat you with twigs?

That was the LEAST of my problems with An Unearthly Child...

John F. Kennedy's March 28, 2012 post, in this thread, on the Graham Williams era looked familiar. I was sure I'd read it before.

Turns out I was right. A chap named Thomas Cookson posted it at the Doctor Who Ratings Guide site, back 2007. Here it is:

http://pagefillers.com/dwrg/williams.htm

Kennedy, if you're going to Copy And Paste someone else's article here, at least have the common decency to credit the original author, in this case, Thomas Cookson.

Oh dear. I've had my suspicions that John F. Kennedy is Judi for some time, and this does rather confirm it.

She's now stopped doing this, after several warnings and deletions. I'll let the post stand - as it's been replied to - but I'll credit the real author on it.

I'm sorry. Sometimes I just prefer commenting under a different nym.

You were John F. Kennedy, Judi? Why did you use the name of a murdered man? That always seemed rather creepy to me.

Like Karla Bentham on "Waterloo Road", I have Asperger's Syndrome which means i frequently just think of something and just do it, without thinking of the morals or implications.

At least you're not like another asperger's person that was on here until he was banned....

He probably didn't really have Asperger's. I do.

Well, that unpleasant fellow seemed to think that having Asperger's made him exempt from the rules here. He swore at poster and even made threats against them. He was banned from a few forums here. Rodney had to ban him from the Friends forum, in which that person claimed Rodney was "persecuting" him. In fact, whenever this person was called out, he turned himself into the victim and said things like "Wahhhh! Nobody likes me!" Well, dude, insulting and threatening people are not going to win you any friends here.

This bloke was warned again and again to clean up his act, but he never did. Finally, he was permanently banned from this site, and rightly so.

Nightmare of Eden is more watchable than much of JN-T Who. JN-T Who failed against Buck Rogers and possibly Graham Williams Who, which was squarely aimed at children, would have not.

Yeah, Nightmare is great fun when you're a kid and great fun (albeit in a slightly more ironic sense) when you're an adult. Whereas the JNT era was pretty po-faced and when it DID accidentally venture into Season-Seventeen-style illogical, silly stories you got abominations like Twin Dilemma, Timelash and (to a lesser extent) Meglos.

I wonder, Emily, if you would have liked Twin Dilemma and Timelash better if it had been Tom, and not Colin, Baker in them.

Well, they would certainly have had their little moments of redemption but on the whole I think I'd hate 'em worse. To do THAT to Colin was sick enough, but to do that to TOM would be PURE EVIL.

Timelash must have inspired Nightmare in Silver - one has androids that look like a poor man's Oompa Loompas and one has a poor man's Willy Wonka.

I wonder, Emily, if you would have liked Twin Dilemma and Timelash better if it had been Tom, and not Colin, Baker in them.

On further thoguht, there is no power in the universe that would have got TOM into THAT COAT. He would also have proclaimed the scripts 'Whippet****' and promptly rewritten 'em. The fundamental ghastliness of The Abominations would still have shone through but there would have been a HELL of a lot more fun to distract ourselves with.

About Time: 'There's a general rule-of-thumb with stories directed by Douglas Camfield...The closer someone is to the camera, the more that character knows' - is this TRUE? And if it is, shouldn't THE DOCTOR have his face shoved permanently into the camera lens?

Any thoughts or reactions to this?

http://whatculture.com/tv/7-reasons-youre-getting-tired-of-steven-moffats-doctor-who.php

I'm largely in agreement.

What kind of GIBBERING IDIOT thinks that SEASON FIVE was New Who's greatest season?

It's a bit much to blame the total-lack-of-caring-about-your-kidnapped-baby on Night Terrors being moved. Yes it was but what about all those OTHER episodes in which the Ponds didn't give a toss?

I don't regard 'Clara the Puzzle' of Season 7 as any worse than 'Clara the Lying Control Freak' of Season 8. When was she 'robbed of agency and made decisions that nobody quite understood'? (But then 'Clara the Dalek' is my favourite anyway.)

Trouble is, it'll follow a pretty GOOD, if exaggerated, point ('the characters [are] rendered so often dispassionate by their almost psychotic levels of lol-banter') with a totally bizarre one ('Say what you want about Russell T Davies, but at least he was always earnest'?!)

'No one is ever owed anything from a TV show' - the HELL I'm not!

Whenever anybody criticises SM:

"He's the worst we've had since..... since...." "Since the last one?!?" - Vengeance on Varos.

But the last one was the Living God who got us back our Who and gave us five years of undreamt-of bliss...

© some other forum's classic Who thread:

"As bad as Series 24 was, it still felt like a continuation of the series that began with AN UNEARTHLY CHILD. The new Series feels like it was made by someone who had seen a few episodes of the original show and decided to riff on it.
Kissing Timelords, fat Daleks, humanoid Silurians, gender-swapping villains, comic relief Sontarans, etc."

Absolute rubbish. New Who has the same SOUL as Old Who, underneath the fifty million improvements and, yes, the (utterly marvellous) comic relief Sontarans.

Whereas no one could look at Time and the Rani and think it was created by the same SPECIES as An Unearthly Child.

TARDIS Eruditorum:

'It was purely because Williams vouched for [JNT] that he got the gig. For him to throw Williams under a bus as thoroughly as he did is redeemed only by his noble decision in 1985 to oversee an era of the program so bad as to immediately replace in Williams era in everyone's mind as the nadir of the series.' -

'Although written before the age of the VCR...It was during the Williams era that the BBC changed from treating its old recordings as irritating clutter and more like a national treasure to be preserved. And there's notably a tendency for the writers to do scripts with subtleties and nuances that simply wouldn't have made sense in the earlier single-use model of television. This, in a real sense, explains the sudden focus on characterization and motivation in the Williams era' - is this TRUE?

Although written before the age of the VCR...It was during the Williams era that the BBC changed from treating its old recordings as irritating clutter and more like a national treasure to be preserved

Too bad it was too late for the stories that had already been junked.

DWM: 'Waris [Hussein] fondly remembers Douglas Camfield...."Douglas was...brought up in a colonial atmosphere. So being ordered about by an Indian...well, he did it with military precision but silent toleration of my abilities. He wasn't a racist, but was heading in that direction. He would joke with me. If at any time...there was a long pause in the studio while I tried to work something out, he'd say, "Come on, Waris, otherwise we'll put you back on the boat."' - Ah yes, what fonder reminiscence could anyone possibly hope for...?

© another forum:
"Reading over the AV Club reviews, Eric Saward never said that he viewed the Doctor that way. But the reviewer said when watching episodes he wrote, that he thought Saward viewed the Doctor as a weak and ineffective person. When watching Resurrection of the Daleks, particularly when the Doctor confronts Davros, where you can't help but feel that that is true."

Space Helmet for a Cow:

'Wiles and Tosh both felt Doctor Who was stuck in a "childish rut", and wanted to touch subjects...their predecessors hadn't wanted to touch...the new producer's first suggestion...was based on the in-no-way controversial premise of the TARDIS being hi-jacked by God. There would, it's fair to say, have been letters' – bless! Did they demand royalties when Ribos Operation materialised...?

Malcolm Hulke wrote for EAST GERMAN STATE TELEVISION?

'"One of the big shifts in policy we've tried to make on Who," wrote Dicks in a letter to Terry Nation (whose stories tended to be "about" making money for Terry Nation) "Is the development of more adult realistic characters and of a strong human interest theme running through every story"' – since WHEN!

'Producer and script editor were also united in their dislike of the UNIT set-up their predecessors had lumbered with them, and began devising ways of launching the Doctor back into space at the earliest opportunity' – um...It's not rocket-science, guys. (Suggested Ep 1, Scene 1: Pertwee walks in brandishing dimensional control. 'Jo! I've mended the TARDIS! Fancy a trip to Metabelis 3?' Sorted.)

'It's a little sad that David Whitaker's association with Doctor Who should have ended this way [with a few rewritten Ambassadors of Death episodes], and slightly baffling that Derrick Sherwin, in one of his last acts as producer, should have written to one of the show's visionary pioneers telling him the series was aiming to be "somewhat more sophisticated" than previously. This is the man, lest we forget, who wrote The Crusade, getting a lesson in sophistication from one of the men responsible for The Space Pirates.' - ouch.

JNT: '"If the show was jokey, then I felt that the sets, too, became almost cartoon strip in style, and the costumes adopted a sort of operatic humour...the humour of Tom's Doctor started to be reflected in the production values of the show, and I wanted to change these to bring them much more in line with the 1980s' more sophisticated style of television." (To be fair, this was before Hi-de-Hi! started.)' - you're the bloody showrunner. If you want 'serious' sets and costumes, TELL the set and costume people. Don't surgically excise humour from Who for several years, you moron.

Barry Letts: 'No one else would take [Who] on. It was being given a last chance. Part of my brief was to find a replacement for the Saturday slot if the decision was taken to dump it.' 'Letts arrived at his new office on Shepherd's Bush Green to find Derrick Sherwin packing a few last odds and ends into his briefcase. "Thank God you're here," said Sherwin. "If you want to know anything, give us a ring at the Centre." And thus concluded the official Doctor Who production handover.' - and yet Who JUST KEPT SURVIVING. What changed in '89?

Jonathan Powell: 'I didn't know what to do. I had no ideas. Also, what was I going to do with ••••••• John Nathan-Turner? What was he going to do? I didn't want him doing anything else because I didn't think he was good enough. You didn't want to give him stuff because you didn't trust him. I wanted him to •••• off and solve it - or die, really.'

Oh.

What changed in '89?

Simple. In 1989, the BBC just didn't give a •••• anymore.

So Russell T God is returning to the BBC...to ADAPT A MIDSUMMER NIGHT'S DREAM? Not that much adaptation is required by the sound of it ('the original play, the original words, the original Shakespeare' for heaven's sake!). When He hasn't bothered to write an episode of Who since 2009!!

Moffat v Capaldi Fan-Fight

The thing about JNT is that in his interviews he'd often contradict himself with hindsight . I think in The Unfolding Text he stated he'd never cast John Cleese in The City Of Death because it'd have the audience falling out of their seats gasping "It's him from Monty Python and Fawlty Towers" only to cast Ken Dodd and Hale & Pace in later stories

I suspect that JN-T might have objected to having Cleese and Bron in that scene not because they were there but because the production team of the time didn't use it as a publicity point. For him, celebrity guests were a way of getting Doctor Who (and himself) into the papers. Casting John Cleese and then not telling anyone isn't a thought that would have occured to him.

Oh god, yeah. He'd've forced them in front of the photographers and stood right next to them pointing his thumb in their direction, so that he couldn't be cut out of the pictures without there being a weird disembodied digit...

DWM: '"Douglas [Adams] was the worst script editor I ever enoucntered in my life," says David Fisher, chuckling. "Tony [Read] always told me that when they said they were getting Douglas in as the script editor he burst into laughter and then into tears. I don't know if that's true"' - bless!

Tch! I see that Russell T Davies has time enough to write letters to Radio Times praising 'Happy Valley' but is too busy to work on Doctor Who. Feet of clay!

TRAITOR! TRAITOR!

SACRED FIRE! SACRED FLAME!

Hear, hear!

Not exactly the production team, but Lawrence Miles has (literally) made national headlines:

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/heres-the-definitive-proof-jeremy-corbyns-cat-el-gato-is-a-socialist-mastermind--WJ56tCaITl

Nice interview with Russell T God. I didn't know he was MARRIED.

Tom Baker on Terry Nation: 'He was a nice man, but the moment he became immensely rich, he became the biggest bore in Europe. He couldn't stop complaining about taxes. They used to deliver his money in a f***ing great lorry, and still he didn't want to pay any tax...I used to say to Terry, to wind him up, "I love paying tax."'

What I find most interesting is not just that Sydney Newman wanted the Doctor to be a woman, but that he wasn’t interested in making the female Doctor a gimmick. His letter says:

At a later stage Doctor Who should be metamorphosed into a woman. This requires some considerable thought – mainly because I want to avoid a flashy, Hollywood Wonder Women because this kind of heroine with no flaws is a bore. Given more time than I have now, I can create such a character.

Newman wanted a strong female character in every sense. He wanted her to be interesting, he wanted her to be complex, and he wanted her to be flawed.

Apparently there's an online quiz that tells you which Doctor Who script editor you are. Andrew Cartmel tried it, and the answer was "Robert Holmes".

If you want creepy, weird, and just plain bad stuff that happened in the last decade of Classic Who’s run, and also wanna take pokes at showrunners, look no further than the fact that the guy who was essentially showrunner from the end of the Fourth Doctor era on, John Nathan-Turner, cared nothing about the show except for the power being “the man in charge” gave him (whereas Moffat actually seems to give half a ••••), was shitty to the actors (telling companion actress Janet Fielding she was “only there for the dads”, trying to pit Lis Sladen and Janet Fielding against each other during filming of The Five Doctors, telling Nicola Bryant when she was cast as companion Peri Brown that she “might have to stuff [her] bra”, then making her come to her first photocall in her “tightest clothes”, then having her character’s usual costumes modeled on that look even though it was nothing like Nicola herself would ordinarily wear, filing Nicola’s own in-depth write-up of her thoughts on her character in “the circular file”, and then a decade on from her run on the show, spitting on her at a convention because she was getting more attention than he, allegedly [okay so there’s some murky territory here] being completely unconcerned when another actress, whose career was heavily reliant on her singing voice in many respects, seemed to have seriously injured her throat when she was made to scream nigh-endlessly during a segment of one story, and reacting to later news that the final companion actor in the Classic run, Sophie Aldred, could have been injured or even killed during an on-set mishap with “Oh, well, we’ll get another one” as if companions, or any actor at all, are just disposable commodities), and generally was not a favourite of a great many people at the BBC by the end, to the point that even if he wanted to quit Who and do something else, they wouldn’t let him, as it was felt he contributed heavily to the mid-80s downturn.
I could also go into the many allegations against his partner, Gary Downie, and that man’s alleged predilection for young/teenage boys, but that’s entirely another matter.

reacting to later news that the final companion actor in the Classic run, Sophie Aldred, could have been injured or even killed during an on-set mishap with “Oh, well, we’ll get another one” as if companions, or any actor at all, are just disposable commodities

Blimey, hadn't heard THAT one.

In his memoirs published in DWM, JN-T does downplay the danger to Sophie Aldred somewhat and then complains that the BBC accident report blamed him, purely because he happened to be the one in charge.

However, if he'd genuinely expressed an opinion that actresses were literally disposal, he would have been sacked.

Hah, they might have TRIED to fire him, but the BBC seem peculiarly incapable of such a feat - just look what happened to their Cunning Plan to force him to resign by telling him to sack Colin Baker...

They would have needed grounds to fire him*. The BBC only managed to get rid of him once the drama department was restructured so that most series production was outsourced and they no longer had producers on permanent contracts. (This was a year after Doctor Who had been cancelled, and he still couldn't take the hint.)

Up until then the alternative would have been to move him to a different series and the department didn't want to risk him with anything else.

* Like, for instance, using BBC time and resources to promote his personal ventures.

Considering how you felt about Colin Baker, Emily, I'm sure you popped a bottle of Champaign when the story broke of his firing.

Michael Grade made it no secret of his hatred of Doctor Who wanted to kill it anyway he could. Taking it off the air for 18 months was one way, and, when that didn't work, he unjustly fired Colin Baker.

However, the fans like Sylvester McCoy, so Grade's plan blew up in his face. Soon after, he left the BBC himself, so that ended his involvement with Doctor Who (thank God).

Sadly, Grade's successors, while not as anti-Who, as Grade was, cared no better for the show. Which is why they quietly killed it in 1989, starting, what Emily calls, the Sixteen Long And Barren Years Of Despair.

This is an extremely peculiar take on the situation. Grade fired Baker because he couldn't fire JN-T, and a decent producer would have taken the hint and resigned. They had to cancel the series to get rid of them, and even then he refused to budge from his office for a year despite not having a job any more.

Fans certainly didn't start pretending to like Sylvester McCoy until 1988, by which time Grade was long gone; back in 1987 the audience reports showed the new Doctor to be massively unpopular, and fans were writing full page newspaper articles about how terrible he was.

And Grade's successor, Jonathan Powell, was if anything even more virulently "anti-Who" than he was.

Considering how you felt about Colin Baker, Emily, I'm sure you popped a bottle of Champaign when the story broke of his firing.

Well, I certainly WOULD have done if...y'know...*embarrassed cough* I'd actually HEARD about it.

But this was in those unimaginably distant pre-Internet days and I'd been forced to switch off Who due to it being unwatchable garbage that desecrated my sacred memories so I didn't learn of this Happy Event until DRAGONFIRE-time when, naturally, I lunged for the 'on' switch.

(Which was, of course, FANTASTIC timing, can you IMAGINE if I HAD heard and sat with gleeful anticipatory joy in front of TIME AND THE RANI?)

he unjustly fired Colin Baker.

WAS it unjust?

I mean, the guy should never have been the Doctor. He just wasn't up to it. No shame in that, let's face it, MOST of us aren't up to being the avatar-on-Earth of the Oncoming Storm...

'Doctor Who was always intended as a bit of fun, escapism, amusement; it was never meant to be taken seriously. It's astounding that so many fans expend so much energy and interest on a show with built-in obsolescence' - well screw YOU Camfield.

Classic Who's fate was sealed the day Michael Grade assumed control of the BBC. Grade hated the show, and he made no secret of that hatred. He wanted it dead and gone.

Had their not been such a huge outcry from the fans after Grade announced that the show was "going in hiatus", in 1985, said hiatus might have been permanent.

However, with fandom coming at the BBC with torches and pitchforks, Grade had to bring Doctor Who back. However, he was not going to let the fans win. They may have forced his hand, but he was going to get his revenge, and he did. He slashed the budget, under promoted the show, and, to top it all off, he unjustly fired Colin Baker.

The Who Office probably breathed a sigh of relief when Grade left the BBC in 1987. They no doubt hoped that the next person would be a little more sympathetic.

Nope, as Kate said, Jonathan Powell hated the show as much as Grade did. And he didn't make the same mistake his predecessor did. When he cancelled Who in 1989, he did it quietly, with little to no publicity. By the time the fans found out what had happened, it was too late.

Neither RTD nor the Moff had to face the likes of Grade or Powell, and thank the dead gods of Krypton for that.

he unjustly fired Colin Baker

He MIGHT have done better to sack Colin's costume first and see how Colin got along without it* but I can't honestly say that regarding Colin as unfit to be the Doctor was UNJUST.

Neither RTD nor the Moff had to face the likes of Grade or Powell

Give or take Grade being put in charge of the BBC shortly after our Glorious Miraculous Resurrection was announced...

*Um, with a new costume, I mean, not naked which would probably have been the one thing WORSE than That Coat.

The Who Office probably breathed a sigh of relief when Grade left the BBC in 1987.

Er, why? Grade's departure wouldn't suddenly have made JN-T any more employable. For every minute the producer clung onto Doctor Who, it became increasingly less viable in the BBC's eyes. That was nothing to do with Grade.

Neither RTD nor the Moff had to face the likes of Grade or Powell

As Emily has pointed out, Grade was BBC Chairman from 2004-2007.

Had their not been such a huge outcry from the fans after Grade announced that the show was "going in hiatus", in 1985, said hiatus might have been permanent.

Finally, something that Tim can thank Ian Levene for.

I should have known that Kate wouldn't want to miss another chance to take a swing at JNT.

As I said, Grade hated the show, and he probably couldn't care less who was Producer. If he wanted to fire JNT, he would have done so. He fired Colin Baker, after all.

In fact, JNT wanted to leave Doctor Who after Trial Of A Time Lord, but the BBC wouldn't let him leave.

If they wanted JNT gone from Doctor Who, why did they refuse to let him leave when he wanted to? The BBC cannot be absolved from their role in the fall of Doctor Who in the late 80's.


Grade was BBC Chairman from 2004-2007.

Yes, but that sounds like he was a Titular Head, purely an administrative position. He would probably had little to no involvement in the day-to-day running of things. He would not have had direct power over programming like he did in the 1980's.


Finally, something that Tim can thank Ian Levene for.

Yeah, that one thing. Still doesn't mean I like him though.

Still there were others involved, including Colin Baker, Nicola Bryant, and Kate's favourite whipping boy, JNT.

It was a team effort, and it worked.

I should have known that Kate wouldn't want to miss another chance to take a swing at JNT.

Everyone has to have a hobby

I wonder if she has a JNT pinata? ;-)

I should have known that Kate wouldn't want to miss another chance to take a swing at JNT.

If you're going to make spontaneous posts to the effect that "all was well in the garden until the wicked serpent Grade (and his faithful sidekick Powell) slithered along" then you're going to get pushback.

As I said, Grade hated the show, and he probably couldn't care less who was Producer. If he wanted to fire JNT, he would have done so. He fired Colin Baker, after all.

JN-T was a BBC employee. Baker was a contracted actor under option. JN-T simply couldn't be sacked without good reason (and "being a terrible producer" isn't a good enough reason - "being an incompetent" one might have been, but so long as he turned in a show close to time and budget they didn't have that get out). The only alternative to keeping him on 'Doctor Who' was moving him to another show, and the BBC weren't going to risk putting him on another of their bread-and-butter series.

(Having said that, according to Cartmel he was offered the producership of 'Bergerac', which begs the question "what had Powell been smoking that morning?" but I suspect may have been a political move to see if JN-T was even willing to contemplate a series where he'd have to knuckle down to doing a bog standard job without any of 'Who's extra-curricular perks. Even so, I can't help but imagine that 'JN-T's Bergerac' would have been like a real-life version of 'Mindhorn'.)

In fact, JNT wanted to leave Doctor Who after Trial Of A Time Lord, but the BBC wouldn't let him leave.

OK, in your toytown fantasy version of history, Grade had the arbitrary power to sack JN-T but JN-T didn't have the power to quit. He wasn't an indentured slave. He could have left if he wanted to, but would have meant leaving the BBC and - almost certainly - his career as a TV producer behind.

If he'd felt strongly enough he could have quit. Instead he clung on to the job until a year after they'd cancelled the series. He didn't leave until the drama department had been restructured so that he would no longer be a staff member. He spent a whole year being paid to come into the office to answer the phones!

I so want to pitch a sequel to 'A Day in the Life of a TV Producer' - maybe as one of those ironic Ladybird Books they do now - but focusing on what JN-T got up to 1990. It'll be a Beckettian existential masterpiece, intercut with occasional scenes of hardcore gay porn.

If you're going to make spontaneous posts to the effect that "all was well in the garden until the wicked serpent Grade (and his faithful sidekick Powell) slithered along" then you're going to get pushback.

Never said it was all nice until Grade showed up. Doctor Who had problems before, Mary Whitehouse's assault on the show in the 1970's, for example. However, DW managed to pull through then, there was no reason it couldn't have done so in the 1980's, except the BBC no longer supported it.


Having said that, according to Cartmel he was offered the producership of 'Bergerac', which begs the question "what had Powell been smoking that morning?" but I suspect may have been a political move to see if JN-T was even willing to contemplate a series where he'd have to knuckle down to doing a bog standard job without any of 'Who's extra-curricular perks. Even so, I can't help but imagine that 'JN-T's Bergerac' would have been like a real-life version of 'Mindhorn'.

JNT might have taken that offer. He had bills to pay and did want to leave Doctor Who at that point.

As to what kind of job he would have done on Bergerac, I guess we'll never know, right.


Instead he clung on to the job until a year after they'd cancelled the series. He didn't leave until the drama department had been restructured so that he would no longer be a staff member. He spent a whole year being paid to come into the office to answer the phones!

Again, the man had bills to pay. And, don't forger, by 1990, a recession was starting. Bad time to be out of work.



I so want to pitch a sequel to 'A Day in the Life of a TV Producer'

You do whatever turns you on. I'm sure Ian Levine and Eric Saward will be the first to by this books when it hits the stands.

Timmo, stop being a Berkshire Hunt to Kate.

I had to look up what "Berkshire Hunt" means (remember, Brit and Aussie slangs don't often mean anything to North Americans).

To paraphrase Queen Victoria: I am not amused.

Never said it was all nice until Grade showed up.

Yet not long ago you said this...

Michael Grade made it no secret of his hatred of Doctor Who wanted to kill it anyway he could. Taking it off the air for 18 months was one way, and, when that didn't work, he unjustly fired Colin Baker.

... which certainly sounds like it.

JNT might have taken that offer. He had bills to pay and did want to leave Doctor Who at that point.

But he didn't take that offer, and stayed on Doctor Who.

As to what kind of job he would have done on Bergerac, I guess we'll never know, right.

John Nettles would have looked like a right idiot in a question mark jumper.

Again, the man had bills to pay. And, don't forger, by 1990, a recession was starting. Bad time to be out of work.

Since this is exactly the moment that he did find himself out of work - rather than, say, 1986 - this counts as bad timing on his part.

And since he ran his own production company*, he wasn't exactly out of work (and thanks to "producer choice" this was a boom time for people with their own production companies). And he didn't go hungry for long - following his clean break from 'Doctor Who' he showed how much he wanted to put the series behind him by... joining BBC Enterprises as an advisor on their range of 'Doctor Who' videos and audios.

* According to legend, it was his company that made the infamous 'Monsters of Ness' pilot c.1988, but as far as I'm aware this has never been proved.

I'm sure Ian Levine and Eric Saward will be the first to by this books when it hits the stands.

More snakes in Eden! Slither, slither, slither!

Slither, slither, slither!

Sacred Fire, Sacred Flame!

JN-T simply couldn't be sacked without good reason (and "being a terrible producer" isn't a good enough reason

If only the BBC had taken a bit more interest in the sexual assault of minors on BBC property in those days...

I can't help but imagine that 'JN-T's Bergerac' would have been like a real-life version of 'Mindhorn'.

Mindhorn?

To paraphrase Queen Victoria: I am not amused.

Fair enough, try to restrain yourself in future please Judi.

Slither, slither, slither!

Sacred Fire, Sacred Flame!

This is getting increasingly surreal.

Boy, the magic mushrooms around here are certainly potent in this harvest....

Seems like JNT remains one of the more controversial figures in Doctor Who history, with fandom split down the middle as to his role in the demise of Classic Who. And I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Heck, more than five centuries after his death, Richard III has people divided. Some see him as the villain of the Shakespeare play, while others (Emily and I among them) see him as a much maligned kind and the victim of a centuries long smear campaign.

Anyway, Kate, let us know when your books comes out. Heck, send me a copy, and I'll send you a copy of my Vince Hawkins book.

BTW: I'm planning on dedicating my book to Emily. Are you?

I wonder what would happen if
John Abbott and Sarah Sutton was in a room with Tim while Karen Gillan was in a room with Matthew See?

Boy, the magic mushrooms around here are certainly potent in this harvest....

We're Fans. Decades of exposure to The Man Who Gives Monsters Nightmares has ensured our brains do peculiar things without the aid of any fungi, thank you very much.

Did anyone else spend DAYS after the Trump victory waiting for time to wind back a la Last of the Time Lords and correct this obvious mistake?

I wonder what would happen if
John Abbott and Sarah Sutton was in a room with Tim

I'd ask for their autographs, of course.

you're a feisty one, Mr McCree

Did anyone else spend DAYS after the Trump victory waiting for time to wind back a la Last of the Time Lords and correct this obvious mistake?

If only that were possible...

Hinchcliffe fans deliberately leave out that he was reprimanded and transferred off of DW for upsetting parents by trying to turn a family show into a scare fest aimed at older people

Did anyone else spend DAYS after the Trump victory waiting for time to wind back a la Last of the Time Lords and correct this obvious mistake?

Remember though, time didn't reverse until the Earth had suffered a year under the Master's rule.

Given that precedent, it's much too soon for time to reverse. That'll not happen until after Trump has declared himself Supreme Overlord of Earth, turned 90% of the US population into mind-controlled slaves, and built a massive statue depicting Hillary being ground under his heel.

Thus, it'll probably be a few months before time reverses.

Hinchcliffe fans deliberately leave out that he was reprimanded and transferred off of DW for upsetting parents by trying to turn a family show into a scare fest aimed at older people

Deliberately leave out of what?

It's shameful the way JNT was treated by his BBC bosses. He had many faults, yes, but he had many virtues, too, and ultimately he was a good nuts and bolts producer who got things made. And he was brilliant in a crisis. He should have been given the chance to produce a series of his own devising. Freed from Who he might have flourished.

The problem is that his bosses didn't think he was a good nuts and bolts producer - and he wasn't. He seems to have been a very effective production assistant and production unit manager but making him producer was a case of the Peter principle at work.

And have you ever seen his TV series proposals? They're all terrible.

making him producer was a case of the Peter principle at work.

Do you know of alternatives that were considered? (apart from George Whatshisname who turned them down)

That'll not happen until after Trump has declared himself Supreme Overlord of Earth, turned 90% of the US population into mind-controlled slaves, and built a massive statue depicting Hillary being ground under his heel.

You Brits were mind controlled when you elected the Master.

What's your excuse, Americans??

Do you know of alternatives that were considered?

Non, meet sequitur.

the criticism of eighties who by fans as too "continuity obsessed" "that confused the casual viewer"... let's be honest, fandom doesn't give a •••• about the casual viewer, except as another stick to beat JN-T with.

New fact: according to the latest issue of Vworp Vworp, Terry Nation punched David Whitaker in a dispute over 'The Dalek World' annual of 1965.

Whitaker is notably absent from the following year's 'Dalek Outer Space Book' (instead written by Brad Ashton, who'd never watched Doctor Who) but presumably the two men patched up their differences later on, or Nation wouldn't have let Whitaker write the two Troughton Dalek stories. (But having said that, the next time Nation wrote for the TV series was several years after Whitaker's final credit on the show...)kitten

Ooh, stray kitten!

Those are the cutest

Nah- the flat ones are better...

according to the latest issue of Vworp Vworp, Terry Nation punched David Whitaker in a dispute over 'The Dalek World' annual of 1965.

Did they say WHY? If it was over, say, his refusal to let Terry Nation call every single character 'Tarrant' than I'm siding with Whitaker, but if he was trying to shoehorn mercury and food machines into every scene then frankly he DESERVED that punch.

Rodney, should you be getting COUNSELLING to get over the death of Tosh-the-cat?

Gareth Roberts in DWM: 'I like being a writer, I like the preparation, I like the storylining, I like the meals, I like the meetings, I like going to screenings, I like having people round my house to watch the shows, I like the money...But the actual physical process of doing it always feels like getting blood out of a stone. It's like childbirth, or fascism: you forget, then you start it up all over again' - BLESS!

As to Saward, it's very difficult not to see him as a villain, particularly given his reprehensible approach to Colin Baker and his antics during the production of Trial. I have to try and make an effort to be fair to him, and acknowledge that he was doing a difficult job in difficult circumstances, and that John Nathan-Turner could be insensitive, arbitrary and difficult to work with. Nathan-Turner didn't seem to care all that much about stories or writing per se, and that gave Saward a free-er hand. But the downside was that with a lack of understanding of the script and writing side, he could be capricious, making arbitrary and unreasonable demands. Still, it's hard to give him a pass on his final year.

Looking at his career with Who, I find it astonishing that, like Andrew Cartmel, he ended up as Script Editor with almost no apparent qualifications. How does that happen? I slammed my head against a brick wall for years, trying to get a novel published. There are literally thousands, tens of thousands of brilliant writers out there going unheard. Almost everyone in the arts has literally had to climb up a mountain. And these guys literally floated into the position. Is it all just luck and right place, right time?

Given his prior lack of television experience, I would have argued that Saward had risen to a position of incompetence. But the reality is, even with grittiness and nihilism, he had done well enough in the Peter Davison era. He'd gotten along with Nathan-Turner for most of that as well, although the cracks started to show in Davison's final year.

Ultimately, what I think it was, was the choice and choices around Colin Baker. Saward was completely the wrong man for the job, wrong man for that Doctor, and wrong man for the way that Baker and Nathan-Turner wanted to play that Doctor. As I said, he should have left with Davison. He did himself no favours staying on. He didn't do anyone else any favours either.

Is it all just luck and right place, right time?

It's often knowing who's ass to kiss, how and when.

his reprehensible approach to Colin Baker and his antics during the production of Trial

He thought Colin was miscast and quit during what was clearly an intolerable situation, neither of which count as "reprehensible" or "antics".

He gave a kiss and tell interview to Starburst, which was probably a misjudgement*. However, the not-particularly-sympathetic 'Totally Tasteless' shows that he was clearly in a state of emotional distress at the time, and JN-T totally screwed him over about the Part Fourteen script. It doesn't make him a "villain".

* Though the criticism is fairly mild, and this is usually the sort of thing that gets fandom celebrating someone "telling it like it is". Saward's crime is that Who fans in 1986 were in desperate denial about how bad the series was, and didn't want to hear an ex-production team member pointing it out.

I also wonder what happened in the two hours 14 minutes between posts that made you change your mind about this:

I don't see villains, just victims

Grade, Powell and JN-T are victims.

Anthony Coburn should be more significant than the creation of the TARDIS and An Unearthly Child.

A devout Catholic, he argued with Verity Lambert on religion.

Why wasn't he portrayed in An Adventure in Space and Time?

Gatiss did imply that it was terrible ignoring so many contributions to cut down the main cast to four (Hartnell, Newman, Lambert and Hussein) in order to have a clearer, stronger story, but I doubt cutting Coburn was one of the difficult decisions - sure, he could have replaced a two-story director like Hussein, but having a gay Asian in the 1960s is WAY more interesting than having some Catholic ranting about his non-existent deity, and indeed his non-existence rights over the TARDIS. (Unless he'd seen fit to tell Verity Lambert that St Paul banned her from speaking or ruling over men, she was to be in silence - watching her dismember him would have been great fun if sadly unhistorical.)

What does religion have to do with the making of An Unearthly Child?

Well, the Doctor IS the Lonely God.

Although admittedly, that was still far in his future at the time of Unearthly Child.

In the sort of synergy that ought to make our Almighty Mod happy (but won't) a Doctor Who writer is playing a cat:

https://www.avclub.com/neil-gaiman-will-voice-a-longtime-simpsons-character-in-1818659187

Well, it makes me happier than if he was writing a sequel to Nightmare in Silver, that's for sure...

2017 is the centennial year of the birth of Sydney Newman, the creator of Doctor Who.

And he was Canadian. So, on behalf of Canada: You're welcome, Who fans

Thanks, guys!

And thanks for whatever-you-did that sent him fleeing to England...

You're welcome, Emily.

Russell T God: 'I loved comics and wanted a career in art and design. But at school I was persuaded by a stupid careers teacher that I couldn't do it because I was (mildly) colour-blind. So I thought, "Oh right, I'll do something else then."' - ••••. THAT'S the sequence of tiny stupid events to which we owe the LAST THIRTEEN GLORIOUS YEARS OF OUR LIVES...?! To which THE DOCTOR HERSELVES owes her lives...?!

Imagine an alternate reality where RTD never got into television...

Imagine an alternate reality where RTD never got into television...

Shan't.

Yeah, if there was no RTD, some non-fan might have been put in charge of bringing back Doctor Who, and would have totally butchered it.

The reason the return of Doctor Who was so successful is because RTD is a long time fan, and thus respects the franchise and its fans.

I mean look at the pile of turd called Star Trek Discovery, a show made by a committee of the Not We. Sadly, there was no equivalent of RTD for Trek fans

Sadly, there was no equivalent of RTD for Trek fans

Being a Trekkie obviously just doesn't have the same mind-expanding effect as being One Of Us...

No, Emily, it doesn't not anymore.

Discovery is our Class.

It's not a pile of turd, it's a very good show, it's just not Star Trek.

Well then it has no business having the Star Trek name attached to it.

Wish I had a TARDIS of my own, I'd go back and make sure that CBS never gets its hands on Star Trek.

In hilarious new series-related news, two actual proper TV writers - Paul Cornell and Neil Gaiman - have now praised 'The Woman Who Fell to Earth' on Twitter only to be told that they've obviously never watched the series before.

To be fair, anyone watching Nightmare in Silver or reading Timewyrm: Revelation might have doubts on that score...

And how bloody rude to insinuate that neither of them have ever watched the show just because they happened to LIKE an episode?!?
Gaiman did happen to write one of the best stories in The Doctor's Wife and Cornell's novel was used as the basis for human nature/family of blood so I think they know a little about the show.

Barely an episode goes by during the Eric Saward years without expecting there to be a stillborn baby being buried on the moors by a teenage mother being battered about by her gluesniffing boyfriend whose unemployed dad has strangled the family dog to lift a traveller's curse.

Still funnier than Season 17 Tom Baker, though.

With the passing of Derrick Sherwin, Philip Hinchcliffe is now the last surviving Producer of Classic Who.

in ten years time, he probably won't be here... being born in 1944...

Nonsense, living into your eighties and nineties is the new normal. Unfortunately.

With the exception of Tom Baker, none of the Doctors has made it past the age of 80 (John Hurt was close, he was 77 when he died), Emily.

JNT must have been unsackable. Reminds me of the line "the union cannot accept incompetence as a reason for dismissal".

Except wasn't this after Thatcher had cut the unions down to size?

JNT must have been unsackable. Reminds me of the line "the union cannot accept incompetence as a reason for dismissal".

The problem here is that JN-T wasn't incompetent by any legal definition of the term. He did the job that he was employed to do. The results were unfortunate, but he did turn out 28, then 26, then 14, then zero episodes of Doctor Who per year as required.

And even after Thatcher's all-out assaults on workers rights and liberties, you can't just sack an employee for no reason* if the job is still viable. Part of the reason Doctor Who survived until 1989 is that the BBC didn't want to risk having to move JN-T to another series so they just let him keep strangling Doctor Who until they could make him redundant.

* Shagging people on BBC premises and diverting BBC resources to his own production company are both good reasons but apparently management never found out about this, though you'd think the fact that he was forever on their own TV shows plugging his pantomimes might have put them on notice.

he did turn out 28, then 26, then 14, then zero episodes of Doctor Who per year as required

*Wince*

Natalie, on January 17, 2017, you posted this:

It's shameful the way JNT was treated by his BBC bosses. He had many faults, yes, but he had many virtues, too, and ultimately he was a good nuts and bolts producer who got things made. And he was brilliant in a crisis.


And then on Sunday, this:

JNT must have been unsackable. Reminds me of the line "the union cannot accept incompetence as a reason for dismissal".


Of course, given your policy of stealing posts from other sites and posting them here (without giving credit to the original author, something that you've been called out on more than once), I can understand why the posts are so opposite, as they were no doubt originally written by two different people.

Of course, this makes you look like you constantly flip-flop on your position like some corrupt politician.

The first post was stolen. The second post was me making a joke about the unions.

Once again I must point out that the Bonehead Broadcasting Corporation must share the blame as to what happened to Classic Who. If they had cared enough, they would have taken whatever steps were necessary to save the show, but they didn't. In fact, they only added to the existing problems (cutting the budget, giving the show a bad time slot).

Blame JNT all you want, folks, but he alone is not responsible.

Er, you do realise that JN-T was an employee of said corporation and the person within that organisation who had overall responsibility for Doctor Who? Saying "it was the BBC's fault" keeps the finger of blame squarely pointed at him.

I didn't say that, I said that one person alone (JNT) is not responsible for Classic Who's fate. There were others involved, such as the BBC bean counters.

The BBC cannot be absolved here

I guess you missed the whole "person... who had overall responsibility for Doctor Who" in my post.

And which "bean counters" are you trying to blame instead? Because the "bean counters" were very happy with Doctor Who, which brought in far more money to Enterprises than it cost the BBC to make.

The sad thing is that while JN-T was terrible for Doctor Who, Doctor Who was also terrible for JN-T. Coming to it at the specific moment he did, it was almost tailor-made for him to indulge all his worst instincts and act out his fantasies of a showbiz lifestyle. It also constricted his ability to develop his skills or grow professionally, so when the whole thing collapsed he had nothing to fall back on - which was another factor in the BBC keeping him on Doctor Who, slowly strangling it as it strangled him.

With hindsight they should have put him on 'All Creatures Great and Small' or a similar light domestic drama for a couple of years where he could get the discipline without distractions.

JNT's All Creatures Great and Small

Tristan suddenly starts wearing a pink cricketer outfit and a piece of broccoli for no good reason and a loud-mouthed, Australian gets added to the show. ;-)

JNT *was* on ACG&S! he left it in its third season to take over Who. His dog Pepsi had a role as the dog Pepper, as Pepsi-Cola didn't exist in Yorkshire between the wars...

Indeed, that is what brought Peter Davison to his attention. So when the part of the Doctor was available, JNT cast him in the role.

His dog Pepsi had a role as the dog Pepper

Pepsi was actually offered the role of the Doctor, but turned it down telling JNT, "I just can't work with you anymore!"

Hmm. A Colin-Baker-Doctor or a DOG-Doctor...?

That's a REAL dilemma for anyone, let alone a cat-lover.

Oh, to hell with it - give Pepsi a chance!

Pepsi would make it Scooby-Doo Who ;)

Scooby Dooby Who!

Dogtor Who. ;-)

Both Scooby-Doo and the Famous Five ask the question: why doesn't the bad guys just draw pistols and shoot Scooby and Timmy?

If JN-T had never been exposed to showbiz and had stayed in an anonymous life in the West Midlands where he had been born and bred, he might still be alive today at age 71, combing grey-white hair and listening to classical music on BBC Radio 3...

JNT *was* on ACG&S! he left it in its third season to take over Who.

JN-T was never producer of All Creatures Great and Small. His career as a BBC producer began and ended with Doctor Who.

Ah, Kate, but you never specified what position JNT would be on had they moved him to All Creatures, so Natalie was correct to point out that he'd already worked on that show.

With all his reckless and predatory sexual behaviour in the eighties, it's nothing short of a miracle that JNT didn't become a celebrity victim of the AIDS virus.

Given that I speculated about ACG&S in the context of JN-T's failings as a producer it would be pretty perverse to read the comment as a suggestion that he hadn't been a PUM.

Peter Davison singing about how he loves having his hand up a cow's bum would have livened up Castrovalva...

He didn't LOVE it exactly, he just said in his autobiography that it was...nice and warm...

Like how Davison thought he got lucky with a woman and it turned out that the whole time he had his hand in warm compost? (Red Dwarf reference)

You mean the actors actually stuck their hands in a cow!? It wasn't faked??

EWWWWWWWWW!!

And the cow didn't even give consent. #MooToo

Don't forget #MewToo - all those cats being stroked...

Nonsense, cats get their signals CRYSTAL clear.

Purring is consent.

Scratching your bloody hand off, not so much.

Just put on Vengeance on Varos Special Edition DVD with Part 1 and the credits includes Production Assistant Jane Whittaker.
A completely different J Whittaker working on Doctor Who!

Considering that JODIE would have been only three years old, when Varos was made, I'd say yes.

As Smart Alec might say: Well, considering that JODIE and Bow Tie Boy would have still been in nappies or pull-ups when Varos was filmed, they could of been cast in the roles of those nappy wearing cannibals ;)

Anyone turning to Page 64 of the latest issue of Empire (March 2019) will see a picture of the young Edgar Wright dressed as the fifth Doctor.

Wouldn't it have been strange if he'd ended up in A Fix with Sontarans and Gareth Jenkins had wound up directing Peter Capaldi's early episodes?

I imagine quite a few current actors watched Classic Who when they were kids.

Peter Davison was a fan of the Troughton Doctor when he was a kid, and David Tennant was a fan of the Peter Davison Doctor when he was a kid.

Imagine a ten year old watching Tennant's Doctor and that ten year old playing the Doctor in the late 2020's.

Gareth Jenkins would have to adopt a much more interesting stage name to become a director, as "Gareth" is up there with "Barry" and "Darrell"...

What's wrong with those names?

I'm agnostic about life after death, but I wish Graham Williams would have had some way of knowing how loved some of his stories would become later.

At the time he died, fandom - very wrongly - hated his stuff. It wasn't long after The Nightmare Fair was novelised. I'm not saying fandom was the cause or contributing to his depression, but it can't have helped.

That's a pretty sweeping statement.

Don't forget that, back then, the Internet did not exist, there was really no way to gauge how fandom felt, like there is now.

I didn't mind the Graham Williams era, many good episodes were made in that time (the much acclaimed City Of Death, for example).

And I hope you're still not maintain that he committed suicide. It was pointed out to you, in this thread (by your beloved Kate), that he died in a shooting accident. And that's just what it was, an accident.

There was a debate on a Classic Who facebook group that started off with "we all know how Graham died" and that there's something suspicious and mysterious about the "shooting accident" explanation.

yeah.....but....this is KATE....she's NEVER wrong!

There was a debate on a Classic Who facebook group that started off with "we all know how Graham died" and that there's something suspicious and mysterious about the "shooting accident" explanation.

And who did they think did it? The Illuminati? Ernst Stavros Bloefeld? The League Of Shadows?

It was an accident, case closed.

Shooting accident made think it was on-set. "We zoomed in too quick. Hit him in the head with the camera..."

There's no conspiracy here, folks. It was just a tragic accident.

Williams ran a hotel that hosted commercial shoots. He died as a result of an accident on one of them. There was nothing suspicious about it and it's really only in the last few years that anyone's insinuated that there was.

If only he wasn't wearing that fox costume...

Indeed, SA: "hug me, squeeze me, tug at my fur!"

Some people see conspiracies everywhere.

Peter Grimwade in DWM (1988): 'Working for Eric Saward, I'd sum him up by saying he was a very sweet man who didn't want to tread on anybody's toes and I think an artist has to be able to read on toes' - well, Saward learnt to tread on toes alright...

'By having black and white goodies and baddies, as opposed to forces for good and evil within the psyche, you find yourself turning to an empty kind of style which is in fact deeply corruptive. I found some of the violence I saw under Saward's later influence very, very disturbing' - didn't we all, though in his defence, if you stick to this 'good and evil within the psyche stuff, you get...Time-Flight.

'Something that was and should be sacred to the doctor was his absolute, total non-violence' - yeah...no.

'I always found the obsessive fan level rather daunting. I think the show is fine, can be lovely but if you want music and drama, there's so much else on offer that is so much better' - !!!

I think the show is fine, can be lovely but if you want music and drama, there's so much else on offer that is so much better

To save Emily the trouble:

BURN THE BLASHPHEMER!!

What was Bob Holmes's most enduring contribution to Doctor Who?

*12 Regenerations

*Sutekh's Mummies

*The Sontarans

*Corrupt Gallifrey

*Morbius

Sutekh was a scary villain. Robert Holmes hit paydirt with him.

He was only 60 when he died. Here is what TARDIS Wiki says on the matter:

However, his health had arguably been declining since the turn of the 1980s, and midway into 1986, Holmes fell seriously ill. He tried to pen a rough draft for the last story of Colin Baker's post-hiatus season, but it became increasingly difficult for him to work as his condition worsened. Robert Holmes turned progressively weaker and less coherent, eventually succumbing to his infirmity near the end of May.

What was said infirmity? What killed the man? Cancer? AIDS? What was it!?

Not a bad Saward interview re his belated novelisations.

'Hello, I'm Matthew Sweet and I'm a Doctor Who Fan.' 'I'm Eric Saward and I'm a fan of myself' - what admirable honesty.

An effete Supreme Dalek? Can't wait! Learning the first names of characters? Can wait. The Doctor's top three films being Saward's top three films? Who the hell does he think he is! The return of the Vipod Mor from the unspeakable Slipback? Just kill me now.

Oh yeah, Saward finally caved on novelizing his Dalek stories.

Better late than never, Eric.

Better late than never

Well...we shall see...

(Obviously during TSLABYOD quality would have been irrelevant and completing one's Glorious Target Novelisation Collection would have been EVERYTHING but when you turn up THIS late to the party then frankly two unnovelised stories more or less doesn't make much difference. WHERE is my Doctor Who In An Exciting Adventure With The End Of The World, that's what I want to know.)

Doctor Who In An Exciting Adventure With The End Of The World

So the villain is Tom Baker? ;)

Well, at least all of Classic Who will now be novelized.

Twice, in the case of Androids of Tara and Stones of Blood.

A win-win, I say.

---

quote:

Doctor Who Classic Infinity:

Obviously Sydney Newman had worked a lot in North American television and he'd co-created The Avengers when he was at ABC, which ended up being a big Transatlantic export for ITV, but I'm not sure that was ever a focus when he went to the BBC.
It’s an area where, strangely, BBC radio was more advanced than television. So much so that by the Fifties, the BBC Transcription Service was not only selling radio shows to foreign broadcasters, it was also commissioning shows just for export.

---

[Re: Cybermen vs. JNT]

JNT only gets round one, by tossing a handful of pocket change at his hopped-up transparent-mouthed Cybermen...

...but that's when a Tenth Planet Cyberman sneaks up behind JNT and clocks him a good one with the Volkswagen hanging off its chest.

Round two, Cybermen.

Some gold coins would do the job.

I think Clive Doig should have been appointed producer instead of JNT. JNT was a well-meaning fool. Doig told Doctor Who Magazine that [Doig] would have cast a woman or a black man as the Doctor. DWM surmised that, given Doig's background in children's TV, we would have seen Lenny Henry as a canon Doctor.

I think Clive Doig should have been appointed producer instead of JNT. JNT was a well-meaning fool. Doig told Doctor Who Magazine that [Doig] would have cast a woman or a black man as the Doctor.

And the BBC would have immediately vetoed that.

The attitude that exists at the BBC most certainly did not exist 4o years ago.

It was *JNT* that notably privately hated the idea of a woman or ethnic minority in the role. Elements in BBC Enterprises really wanted to open opportunities in the Asian market (Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong), which is partly why we nearly got "Yellow Fever... and How to Cure It" in the "lost" Season 23. Under a different producer... and stronger pressure from BBC Ents... we might have seen an Asian Doctor in the eighties.

Elements, perhaps, but the people in overall charge most certainly would never have allowed this. They would have been worried about driving the audience away.

The BBC at that time would never have taken such a risk.

Judi - It was *JNT* that notably privately hated the idea of a woman or ethnic minority in the role.

Interesting as I seem to recall it was him who would talk about the idea of a woman Doctor in interviews. Probably in Starlog.

Tim - The BBC at that time would never have taken such a risk.

You never really know. It all depends on who happens to be in charge and how the idea is presented. You might get someone who thinks it's a great idea or someone who thinks it's a great way to kill off the show.

Elements in BBC Enterprises really wanted to open opportunities in the Asian market (Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong)

Now that might have been interesting.
"Who's the fifth Doctor?"
"Some young Hong Kong actor who does his own stunts... uh, Jackie Chan."
;-)

Bidmead said JNT actually didn't like the idea of a female Doctor. He just didn't say it in public.

Jackie Chan as the Doctor and he teaches his young female "Short Round", the ancient art of butt whoop.
(enough racist clichés for you in one sentence ;))

Bidmead said JNT actually didn't like the idea of a female Doctor. He just didn't say it in public.

JNT assured us pretty publicly in A Celebration that the Doctor would ABSOLUTELY NOT! ever be a woman.

JODIE! JODIE! JODIE!

As I said, a female Doctor was unthinkable at that time.

However, times change.

a female Doctor was unthinkable at that time.

Well, TOM BAKER thought of it.

And Tom would have made a memorable female Doctor. ;-)

Although Pertwee did it first. ;-)

Remember this whole female Doctor thing started as a joke that Tom Baker and JNT came up with, to rile up the fans. Neither man thought the idea would catch on the way it did.

Even RTD wouldn't touch this thing. It was not until Moffat took over that it really started. Missy was clearly a trial run for this idea. If the fans would accept the Master becoming a woman, then logic would indicate that they would be okay with the Doctor becoming one.

Yes, it was not until Chibbers took over that it happened, but Moffat laid the groundwork.

---

quote:

Doctor Who in the 1970s

The series went from thrills and slight horror, with occasional student humour, to Eastenders in Space with endless bickering between the companions and the Fifth Doctor reduced to being "the bloke what drives the bus".

---

The Fifth Doctor's era was in the 80's, not the 70's.

And Eastenders didn't start until 1985, after the Fifth Doctor's era had ended.

It was a comment in the Facebook group Doctor Who in the 1970s. Topic drift into why JNT Who was ••••.

The reason the horror got dropped is because the Bonehead Broadcasting Corporation caved into Mary Whitehouse.

Had I been in charge of the BBC, I would have told that old biddy what she could go do with herself.

introduce her to Fred West?

We wouldn't need to resort to serial killers, if only we'd got Captain Jack a few decades earlier I'm pretty sure she would have dropped dead of an apoplexy...

You know you're getting old when annoying people get murdered in a Doctor Who story and you relate more with the killer.

Oh, I've ALWAYS been like that.

Turning Captain Jack loose on Mary Whitehouse.

Who wouldn't love to see that!

Russell T God has been on Desert Island Discs, the Guardian has a summary but it omits the divorce lawyer who phoned RTG to tell him that in all his warring families, Who was the only hour of peace they had, when they all sat down and watched - 'it's doing good, it's bringing people together'.

And it's interesting, in view of the Tenth Doctor's Love & Monsters contempt for the word, to hear RTG rhapsodising about 'nice' - his husband was 'the nicest man in the world..."nice" sounds like such a bland word, such an easy and simple word...the world actually turns under the march of the feet of all those nice people.'

And he spent eight years as his husband's carer, wanted his freedom, and 'now I've got that freedom I'd chuck it all away for five minutes watching television with him.' (Dammit, Rest In Peace, RTG's Husband who spared us any more Miracle Days.)

Oh, and that Blue Skies thing from Love & Monsters played at his wedding but cut out cos the four guests were laughing so loudly at the expression on his face as he was forced into marriage by that 'fatal illness' trump card.

'Doctor Who showrunner Chris Chibnall has said working on the programme has been "entirely life-changing" and that his workload is "bonkers"'. It's the sort of thing that broke my heart when Russell T God was showrunner of THREE Whoniverse programmes and their assorted Confidentials/Declassifieds/Totallys etc etc but if Chibnall is so •••• busy WHERE WAS THIS YEAR'S GLORIOUS SEASON OF JODIE! GOODNESS?

This would not be the first time, nor the last time, that the popularity of a show went over a network executive's head.

Barry Letts in DWM:

'Bryant and Sherwin cast Jon Pertwee...but then it was decided that they would move on...and there was nobody to produce Doctor Who. Because it was seen as such a failure, everyone they asked said, "You must be joking. I don't want anything to do with it." The show was obviously not going to last' - a timely reminder that we have had dark days before AND TRIUMPHED.

'I wanted to do it all myself. The closest I managed was Planet of the Spiders, which Bob Sloman wrote with me, but which I did produce and direct. It's a very satisfying thing to do. You feel in charge. When it goes wrong, you feel dreadful, but when it goes right, you feel you could jump over the moon' - but it DIDN'T go right.

Ah BLESS, he expected to be hauled over the coals for Green Death but 'nobody took it seriously, because it was only Doctor Who.' Well, at least they're taking it seriously NOW (both the environmental catastrophe and Who's latest ham-fisted attempt to reverse it by, um, yelling BENNI! a lot).

'So I wrote first The Paradise of Death and then The Ghosts of N-Space. There was talk of doing a third one, but sadly Jon died before anything could come of that' - is it WRONG to think that Jon didn't die in vain...?

yelling BENNI! a lot

?????????

That old woman in Orphan 55 yelled it A LOT.

Oh!

I must have blocked that, like much of Orphan 55, out.

Moffat in DWM:

'Terry Nation invents what Doctor Who stories have to be. I mean, he also invented the Daleks, but that's almost a side issue. He invented the Doctor Who story where Doctor Who turns up on the planet and saves the nice people from the metal people. He invented the quest story, when Doctor Who chases after something through time and space, and he invented the invasion of Earth story, when Doctor Who repels metal people from planet Earth' - blimey, I...hadn't quite thought of it like that.

Cornell on Nation: 'Here's a show which is written basically as prog rock: as David Whitaker's poetic, serious, very created, very wrought show. And Terry Nation comes along like The Beatles with that big twang and says, "Let's just do the most exciting thing at every given moment."'

Boy, Terry Nation has suddenly gone up in my estimation.

Boy, Terry Nation has suddenly gone up in my estimation.}

Remembering the names Taron, Tarrant and Rebec will quickly cure you of that...

I'm sorry, Taron, Tarrant and Rebec give me happy feelings.

I might have to start thinking of Slythers instead.

I'm guessing this "Rebec" was named in honour of Terry nation's daughter, Rebecca.

Although I don't remember any character on Blake's 7 with that name.

Rebec is a character in "Planet of the Daleks". Don't worry, we all like to forget that story...

Haven't see that story in decades myself.

Well, watch again! It's the apogee of good trad Who!

Retaining Chibnall is a bit like Frank Spencer promising to be your handyman for another year.

The Sarah Jane video showed us that RTD does still have some good creative thoughts.

So did Years and Years.

Never seen Years and Years myself.

Emily, are you actually endorsing something that isn't Doctor Who!?

Satan: Brrrrrr! When did it get so cold down here!?

It's by Russell T God!

It's a hideous dystopian future!

It resurrects Vivian Rook from Sound of Drums! (As a fascist dictator but who's to say she WOULDN'T have become a fascist dictator if the Toclafane hadn't ripped her to pieces.)

It has Alonzo pretending to be the Plasmavore's grandson!

I love ALL these things!

Yes, but it still isn't Doctor Who!

RTD had a kids show, Aliens vs. Wizards (or something like that), where the two main characters felt like Luke and Clyde from the Sarah Jane Adventures.

This year's London Film Festival is a mainly virtual affair, so you can stream the films from the comfort of your own home. In which case, Doctor Who people may be interested in this:

https://www.bfi.org.uk/london-film-festival/screenings/delia-derbyshire-myths-legendary-tapes

So 'Delia: The Myths and Legendary Tapes' is a peculiar beast. It is a lot of the time the abstract/experimental documentary it promises, though perhaps less so than the set up suggests. There are a few talking heads that seem to have escaped from somewhere more conventional.

But there's a surprising amount of dramatised material. The realisations of some of Derbyshire's compositions and early dramatised scenes do feel nicely experimental and in keeping with the tone of the film but a lot of the scenes at the BBC Radiophonic Workshop feel like they could be offcuts from of 'An Adventure in Space and Time' (especially Julian Rhind-Tutt - perfectly good as Brian Hodgson - but still a distractingly familiar face in the role).

The BRW is also very much the bulk of the documentary, with only a few minutes at the end dedicated to DD's post-BBC career (including film-making in the Netherlands, working as a French speaking radio operator on a gas-pipe laying operation, and hanging out with Li Yuan-Chia). It's probably better than any conventional biopic would be, despite it uneveness, but it does feel like a lot more could have been told.

Our moderator will doubtless be disappointed to learn that DD's permanently flea-ridden cat is mentioned but never actually appears, though relieved that the shagging on the Workshop out of hours is kept off screen. There is, however, a surprising amount of on-screen snuff abuse.

DD's permanently flea-ridden cat

Her WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT! I don't care if you're busy writing the Greatest Music In The History Of The Universe, your top priority is to ensure that Precious DOESN'T HAVE FLEAS!

Did she have a cat?

DWM on Saward: 'When Matthew insists that the Alzarian boy genius is nothing like...him - "It's not just me, wearing spongy boots and standing at the TARDIS console!" - Eric shots back: "I enjoyed the spongy boots. That's why I kept you alive for so long"' - well doesn't THAT explain a lot...

'If I saw The Visitation now, I think I'd burst into tears. It wasn't good...it's lacklustre, frankly' - Saward is DEFINITELY one of my favourite interviewees.

Terrance Dicks: 'When I wrote The Five Doctors Eric was constantly saying "The Cybermen haven't done much. Isn't it time we saw the Cybermen again?" And I said it's like writing a show with the producer's girlfriend in it and he's saying, "Ethel hasn't had much of a part, you know!"' - BLESS!

'Christopher Bailey was one of these "do not change a comma" writers - "or my work of art will collapse!" But then we ran out of time...So my first job was to rewrite the second half of Kinda' - SAWARD rewrote KINDA?!

Moffat on Earthshock: 'Great action ideas. Admittedly, with Doctor Who's limited budget, that's mostly urgent standing, but [Saward] starts the urgent standing; it had been urgent sitting up until that point' - adorable!

When Matthew insists that the Alzarian boy genius is nothing like...him - "It's not just me, wearing spongy boots and standing at the TARDIS console

Well, duh, Matthew, Of course it isn't you, it's a role you're playing.


'If I saw The Visitation now, I think I'd burst into tears. It wasn't good...it's lacklustre, frankly'

I disagree.


SAWARD rewrote KINDA?!

Fat lot of good it did that turkey.

Well, duh, Matthew, Of course it isn't you, it's a role you're playing.

Apparently a lot of Fans just assumed Matthew Waterhouse was basically Adric. (Well, not just Fans, Lalla Ward certainly seems to think that was the case...)

'If I saw The Visitation now, I think I'd burst into tears. It wasn't good...it's lacklustre, frankly'

I disagree.

Yeah, even I might not have gone quite as far as 'lacklustre', it just lacked a certain...je ne sais quoi.

SAWARD rewrote KINDA?!

Fat lot of good it did that turkey.

I wouldn't call it a turkey, even though it wasn't to my taste. Still, variety is the spice of Who. (Also, I'm not in love with Ms O'Traken.)

Apparently a lot of Fans just assumed Matthew Waterhouse was basically Adric. (Well, not just Fans, Lalla Ward certainly seems to think that was the case...)


???????

She's always implying that Matthew Waterhouse is a ghastly little twerp, just like dear old Adders...

Ouch!

She's not the only one. When Andrew Sachs got to play Adric, Davison viciously said 'Imagine my disappointment when I get to the studio and discover Adric's being played by an actor.' (Which probably makes things interesting now Davison and Waterhouse are recording audios together...)

Peter Davison was probably joking.

And even if he and Waterhouse didn't get on while working on Who, that was nearly forty years ago now. No doubt they put whatever rift they had behind them.

Hmm, well, I'll let you know if there are heartwarming stories coming from the CD Extras when I finally get round to listening to the CD Extras of Five/Adders stories. So far I haven't heard anything heartwarming like Tom n'Louise Jameson getting on like a house on fire now he's sincerely apologised for behaving like a monster in the 1970s, but then I haven't heard anything as unheartwarming as Tom n'Lalla always recording in separate studios either...

Got it.

I heard it was during the making of Horror Of Fang Rock that Louise called Tom out for his awful behavior. He said sorry and things were fine from that point on.

A little higher than mere Production, but... the BBC is apparently having trouble finding a new boss.

Maybe Emily should apply?

Just think, all Doctor Who, all the time! 24 new Doctors each appearing in their own one hour series! Cast six or seven Masters to appear over the different series! Think how easy the BBC announcers will have it? No remembering the names of lesser programs just, "You have just watched Doctor Who, now stay tuned for Doctor Who." Sure some weaklings will complain of needing sleep, but that's what caffeine's for!

;-)

*Sobs* THIS MUST HAPPEN!

Hang on, I'm not bloody watching something called Doctor Who FAIL!

Emily, if you controlled the Bonehead Broadcasting Corporation, Doctor Who would \I[never} fail!

Russell T God is MY kinda guy (this probably won't come as a tremendous shock to anyone):

Radio Times:

'There should be a Doctor Who channel now. You look at those Disney announcements, of all those new Star Wars and Marvel shows, you think, we should be sitting here announcing The Nyssa Adventures or The Return of Donna Noble, and you should have the Tenth and Eleventh Doctors together in a 10-part series. Genuinely.'

Well GET ON WITH IT, then!

The Nyssa Adventures

I'm in!

Though why they'd be called The Nyssa Adventures when you'd be getting two for the price of one...though I s'pose it could start off with Nyssa removing her skirt for the delectation of a bunch of lepers and only gradually build up to her mysteriously returning to modern-day Earth to re-encounter Tegan...

gradually build up to her mysteriously returning to modern-day Earth to re-encounter Tegan...

I'd suggest Big Finish, but then they'd be writing about Nyssa Prime, not the ARN.

Delia Derbyshire - The Myths and Legendary Tapes is gettings its first TV broadcast on Sunday 16 at 9pm on BBC4.

Sadly, like JNT, Delia Derbyshire fell into the embrace of alcohol.

And, like it would do with JNT the following year, alcoholism would kill her in 2001.

J. Michael Straczynski, he creator of Babylon 5 expressing interest on becoming the next Doctor Who showrunner:
https://imgur.com/a/yEBjxny

Ooooo, that could be very interesting.

Yeah, but he's an American and given the pride the BBC took in pointing out that they've never had an American scriptwriter when rejecting an American writer's story idea for Dr. Who...

Oops.

Who-set-building kills guy.

Surprised I'm the one posting this and not Emily - but Russell T Davis is coming back.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-58682472

I've already seen folks referring to this upcoming era as 'RTD2'!

Surprised I'm the one posting this and not Emily

I've been out all day. And I don't have one of those magic phones that you can go online with in an attempt to reduce my internet addiction...MY MOTHER told me ON THE PHONE of all the weird old-fashioned ways of finding out that HE'S BACK HE'S BACK MY GOD HAS RETURNED TO ME AT LAST HALLELUJAH!!

And in a co-production with Bad Wolf, how...fitting...

And didn't I always SAY so? That He should have a nice rest and then COME BACK TO US DAMMIT.

Hopefully He'll bring Tennant back with him and my life can once again be complete.

Bringing Tennant back, yet again, when Ten is already all over the comics, books, games, BF and TLV stuff would just be too much. RTD gave us new (for Who) stuff last time with regards LGBTQ+ and minority representation - I want more of that, give us a minority or LGBTQ Doctor! What about the tall, bald black woman from the Rose novelisation?

Bring in lots of new writers and ideas like he did the first time. And the perennial wish: more alien worlds! Also (and I know some people don't like it) but I wouldn't mind some of the silliness to return. Too many shows now are full of grim/dark pessimism, we need a farting Slitheen every once in a while!

I see that Emily is swooning like a Christian, who has just been told that the Second Coming of Christ is at hand.

I see as a sign of desperation. They're hoping that RTD can save their sinking ship. Maybe he can, but one has to face reality that the past cannot be brought back.

Tim, it strikes me you don't actually enjoy watching Doctor Who anymore. Feel free to take a break, and ease off on the negativity spamming.

And the perennial wish: more alien worlds!

Don't worry, I'm under the impression He bitterly regrets being such a coward at first and depriving us of this fundamental RIGHT.

I see that Emily is swooning like a Christian, who has just been told that the Second Coming of Christ is at hand.

Only more so, I think Jesus's Second Coming is supposed to entail the dead rising from their graves for a thousand years in a seriously creepy manner so even the most fervent Christian is entitled to the odd misgiving about getting Baby Jesus back whereas what's not to love about having the Bestower of Gridlockian Kittens back where He BELONGS?

Tim, it strikes me you don't actually enjoy watching Doctor Who anymore. Feel free to take a break, and ease off on the negativity spamming.

Obviously Tim must not be permitted to 'take a break' from Who (it's against the LAW or if it's not it damned well SHOULD be) but you've made your point Tim, you don't have to dance The Drunk Giraffe in celebration of our forthcoming rapturous happiness but perhaps you could not try so hard to •••• all over the only bit of good news we've had in years (I mean, not just Who-related news, when it comes to our own miserable lives and the state of this entire planet I'm sure this is pretty much IT as far as the good news is concerned)...at least until RTG actually DOES something, in which case it is your right and indeed duty to nitpick the hell out of it...

Doctor Who has always been moving forward. A showrunner has their time in charge, then they pass it on to the next person. That's how it's always been.

With this, it seems they're moving backwards. It's no longer 2005, RTD had his time in the sun. The fact that they had to beg him to come back shows how desperate they are.

A showrunner has their time in charge, then they pass it on to the next person. That's how it's always been.

Only because the BBC criminally, insanely, passed on Verity Lambert's bid for Who during TSLABYOD.

It's no longer 2005, RTD had his time in the sun

Do you really think Russell T God of all people hasn't NOTICED its no longer 2005? Any more than he noticed it was no longer 1989 when he brought Who back in glory?

The fact that they had to beg him to come back shows how desperate they are.

Got any evidence for this 'fact'?

The RTD who has had massive success with Years and Years, and It's a Sin, isn't the same RTD of 2005 who had to gradually work in subtle references to Classic Who, and hints that not everyone was straight, before being allowed to bring back Sarah-Jane and K9, or write you-know-who and the entire Torchwood team shagging each other.

Heck, Who isn't the same - there's a wealth of new lore to draw from (and the Morbius Doctors), and were allowed to have classic monsters!

A showrunner has their time in charge, then they pass it on to the next person. That's how it's always been.

Only because the BBC criminally, insanely, passed on Verity Lambert's bid for Who during TSLABYOD.

That was a different situation. At that time, the BBC was outsourcing the production of its shows. Verity's company was one of many that was interested in Who. Of course, as we know, nothing happened.

However, during the run of Classic Who, it was always forward. A showrunner did their work on the show, and then passed it on to the next one. It was that way from Verity right through to JNT. No one came back (with the exception Barry Letts, who did return at the start of the JNT era, but he was only there as an advisor, he had no part in the day-to-day running of the show)


The fact that they had to beg him to come back shows how desperate they are.

Got any evidence for this 'fact'?

Have you seen the ratings the shows been getting these past few years. It's doing an impression of the Titanic, BLUB, BLUB, BLUB (I can almost hear the band striking up Nearer My God To Thee).

Clearly they're hoping RTD will pull a rabbit out of his hat and save the day. This guy brought the show back from the dead once, and they hope he can do so again.

Yeah, but are they the ones who begged, or did RTD offer his services?

No one came back (with the exception Barry Letts, who did return at the start of the JNT era, but he was only there as an advisor, he had no part in the day-to-day running of the show)

They dragged Sydney Newman back as well...

Have you seen the ratings the shows been getting these past few years. It's doing an impression of the Titanic, BLUB, BLUB, BLUB (I can almost hear the band striking up Nearer My God To Thee).

It's doing just fine.

Of course, compared to the heights of the Tennant Era (not to mention JODIE!'s opening story) 'just fine' is...just not good enough.

Yeah, but are they the ones who begged, or did RTD offer his services?

Exactly! He is One Of Us, OF COURSE He wanted to get His hands back on the greatest idea ever invented in the history of the world...

Only because the BBC criminally, insanely, passed on Verity Lambert's bid for Who during TSLABYOD.

She didn't bid for it - that's a misinterpretation of Cinema Verity's role in the US negotiations. And even if CV did get the licence to make Doctor Who, Lambert is unlikely to have been involved in it directly.

They dragged Sydney Newman back as well...

Or, rather, Newman pitched some ideas for what he'd do if he was in charge of the show again and the BBC politely suggested it might be time for him to have his cocoa and a nice nap. (Though if Troughton had seriously been in contention to return as the Doctor it might have dissuaded him from over-exerting himself on the convention circuit...)

Newman pitched some ideas for what he'd do if he was in charge of the show again and the BBC politely suggested it might be time for him to have his cocoa and a nice nap.

Ouch!

From Doctor Who Page (not the official one from the BBC) on facebook:
"Have new Doctor Who spin-offs been confirmed for when Russell T Davies returns to the helm of showrunner?

Fans have noticed that Bad Wolf Productions has filed a new subsidiary company titled Whoniverse1 Ltd, run by Julie Gardner.

This could suggest Russell T Davies wants to extend the Doctor Who universe beyond the main show.

What spin-offs would you like to see?"

*Blissful sigh*

Of course, after what RTG said in January about 'There should be a Doctor Who channel now. You look at those Disney announcements, of all those new Star Wars and Marvel shows, you think, we should be sitting here announcing The Nyssa Adventures or The Return of Donna Noble, and you should have the Tenth and Eleventh Doctors together in a 10-part series. Genuinely' it's not exactly a surprise and frankly I do have some very mixed feelings, I adore SJA and hell, I was on such a high for several years I even adored Torchwood (till Miracle Day obviously, I'm not COMPLETELY devoid of all taste and discernment) but...RTG just spread Himself SO DAMNED THIN last time and I really, really need Who to have His full attention.

But nonetheless I WANT THEM I WANT THEM I WANT ALL THE SPIN-OFFS IN ZE VORLD...

The Nyssa Adventures? I'd watch that!

I dunno, if it's a Torchwood-style post-watershed programme, you might get a bit freaked-out by all that sex she'll be having with the Mouth On Legs...

Not sure how I feel regarding the term 'Mouth on Legs' being used in a sentence about having sex...

Oh-kay, now you mention it, that probably wasn't the most tactful time to wheel out Tegan's nickname.

But nonetheless I WANT THEM I WANT THEM I WANT ALL THE SPIN-OFFS IN ZE VORLD...

Isn't that what Big Finish is doing?

Good point.

TBH, I think Big Finish are doing spinoffs from other dimensions as well.

AREN'T they just.

Anyway, the difference between the Russell T God Whoniverse on-screen and...those audio things...is, well, it's the difference between the Sixth and Tenth Doctors and there IS no greater difference.

In the Big Finish Audio facebook group someone suggested that Unbound should be a TV series and I said to this person that he should suggest this to RTD.

Imagine seeing a different Doctor in every episode.

We don't HAVE to imagine it, one minute it's JODIE! the next minute it's Ruth, the next minute it's numerous little tortured kiddies, the next minute it's some Irish ginger person...

Chibnall's Folly.

Hopefully, RTD will toss it into the same rubbish bin that he tossed that "half-human" nonsense.

And I am still convinced that is why RTD was asked back. They know that Chibnall was a hopeless failure and figured that RTD is the man to undo the damaged Chibnall caused.

Chibnall's blessed us with three seasons that, like virtually every other season of Who (bar 26 & 27) have some wonderful stuff and some bad stuff and some stuff in between. Not to mention two sublime Doctors and a sublime Master. It's a HELL of a lot more than I was expecting from the guy whose episodes for RTG and Moffat were 'aiming for mediocre and failing'.

The viewing figures are disappointing but that's on the philistines who don't watch who'll be first up against the wall when my revolution comes.

Okay, not all the episodes under his watch stunk.

But I did find myself almost doing what you did in the Colin Baker era, switching off and walking away.

I walked away from Star Trek when it was sacrificed on the alter of the 21st Century Communism called Woke, after all.

However, as you can see, I stuck around. And if anyone can restore Doctor Who, it's RTD.

I walked away from Star Trek when it was sacrificed on the alter of the 21st Century Communism called Woke, after all.

What did Who 'sacrifice' to 'Wokeness', exactly? And what does 'Wokeness' mean in this context? Having two non-male Doctors and a non-white Master and a non-white Doctor and historical characters that were non-white non-males? What exactly was wrong with JODIE! and Jo and O and Noor and Rosa and Seacole? Being a white straight male isn't some kind of default state, y'know.

The only time being 'woke' ruined anything was in Orphan 55 and, let's face it, that wasn't the fault of having an environmental message (which worked JUST FINE for all-time classic The Green Death) that was because EVERYTHING about Orphan 55 was hideously wrong for some undefinable reason, even the bog-standard base-under-siege bits for heaven's sake...

And if anyone can restore Doctor Who, it's RTD.

Well, we're in agreement about THAT anyway.

It has ALWAYS been my opinion that Russell T God must return to His and Humanity's Raison d'Etre to save it at regular intervals.

What exactly was wrong with JODIE! and Jo and O and Noor and Rosa and Seacole? Being a white straight male isn't some kind of default state, y'know.

Noor, Rosa, and Seacole do not apply here. They were real people, and they, and their actions, are a matter of historical fact. Of course they're gonna be played by actors of the same ethnic group. To do otherwise would be wrong in every sense of the word.

However, not all feel that way.

Not too long ago there was a mini-series about Anne Boleyn in which the title character was played by a black actor. I didn't like that, not because I am racist (as the Wokies would label me), but because Anne Boleyn wasn't black! I would be just as angry if they had cast white actor to play Martin Luthor King Jr. or Nelson Mandela.

Of course, these are dealing with actual historical figures.

As far as fictional characters go, the default position of Wokies is that, if you don't agree with them, that means you're a racist/misogynist/homophobe/fill in the hate group. I hate Modern Trek because it takes a massive dump all over decades of canon, that's it. The race and sex of the characters have nothing to do with it.

The same applies to Doctor Who. Chibnall has taken a dump over decades of canon with his Timeless Children nonsense.

And the sinking ratings show I am far from alone here. Which is why, IMO, Chibnall is being given the push and RTD is being asked back. RTD saved Doctor Who once, and they're hoping he can do so again.

Yeah nowadays people don't really like good writing and instead prefer "we quirky" and diverse SJW representation.

Myself, I prefer "Mukokuseki" AKA trying to make everything raceless. But growing up my writing is becoming more grounded in real life.

Noor, Rosa, and Seacole do not apply here. They were real people, and they, and their actions, are a matter of historical fact

Yeah, but a lot of men seem terribly upset that the Doctor's meeting THEM when before the historical guest stars tended to be more...white and male.

Not too long ago there was a mini-series about Anne Boleyn in which the title character was played by a black actor. I didn't like that, not because I am racist (as the Wokies would label me), but because Anne Boleyn wasn't black! I would be just as angry if they had cast white actor to play Martin Luthor King Jr. or Nelson Mandela.

The cases aren't comparable, given that the colour of Mandela and King's skins was massively important to their entire lives, given what disgusting apartheid countries they lived in. Whereas casting a black Anne could actually be seen as the logical extension of her ultimate-outsider status, a virtual-commoner overthrowing a doubly-royal Queen, a dark mistress overthrowing a beloved wife, a Protestant when it was a burning-at-the-stake crime, an accused witch and incestuous-adultress, a woman who got her damned HEAD chopped off for sticking it above the parapet...

...Having said that, yeah, I tried the black-Anne-Boleyn series and switched off pretty fast cos it had nothing new whatsoever to convey and was blatantly just relying on its ethnicity gimmick.

As far as fictional characters go, the default position of Wokies is that, if you don't agree with them, that means you're a racist/misogynist/homophobe/fill in the hate group

Have you actually ENCOUNTERED any said Wokies? Cos I really don't think I'm one of their mythical number and personally I strongly suspect that a LOT of the opposition to JODIE! came from misogyny and I KNOW a lot of the opposition to JODIE!'s composer came from sheer racism. I mean, the poor guy was being viciously attacked before we'd even heard a NOTE of how much worse he was than Murray Gold...

Chibnall has taken a dump over decades of canon with his Timeless Children nonsense.

Well, yes, but it doesn't have anything to do with Wokeness. We'd all surely be just as outraged by the blasphemous attack on our Sacred Numbering System if all those stupid little Doccies were white n'male like Brain of Morbius implied...

And the sinking ratings show I am far from alone here

Again, I don't see what gender/colour/sexuality have to do with the fact that the viewing figures have dropped, Chibnall is just obviously not quite as great a showrunner as RTG and the Moff cos NO ONE COULD BE.

Which is why, IMO, Chibnall is being given the push and RTD is being asked back

I have no reason to doubt that Chibnall and JODIE! are telling the truth about their three-seasons-and-we're-out pact. So please either produce some evidence to the contrary or stop acting like the guy who gave us JODIE! and Jo and O and Fugitive of the Judoon and the Doctor blowing kisses at a frog-universe and SPOILERS FOR FLUX the Doctor being turned into a Weeping Angel was SACKED for his trouble.

RTD saved Doctor Who once, and they're hoping he can do so again.

Well, YEAH.

Yeah nowadays people don't really like good writing and instead prefer "we quirky" and diverse SJW representation.

Again, I'm not seeing why the two are mutually exclusive.

Captain Jack and Madame Vastra, for example, were pretty diverse and also glorious triumphs.

1: The Doctor also met white men in those episodes. There were white men with Rosa and Seacole.

Crimea has\had white, brown (Caucasus), turanic (Central Asia) and asian (Siberia) men. And the Crimean War was fought because both Russia and France (who had a lot of both black and white men on their side) wanted to go on a crusade. At the time, a lot of native Crimeans were Muslim and spoke a Turkic tongue natively, and there are quite a few of them left today. So technically white but still a minority. The Turkic language is originally from Siberia and only ended up everywhere recently. Heck, both Sardinians and people from the Urals are genetically quite different not just from each other, but from about everyone else in Europe. THe border between white and brown people has shifted a lot and is more of a blend than an hard border, for a long time, people in Anatolia\Turkey were speaking Greek, and people in Ukraine\South Russia were speaking an Iranic language known as Sarmatian. Of course, the episode replaced Russia with SOntar, but the French had a lot of both black and white men, British had a lot of black, brown, and white men,
Ottomans had a lot of brown men and some white men (and then there's a bit of ethnic ambiguity due to Anatolia having been Greek-speaking just sometime before, but then again it was Hittite another while before) and Sardinians are again genetically very different from the rest of Europe.

2: You're not SJW.

3: That was before the "we quirky". I meant more:

Sims 4 VS Sims 2\3
Animal Crossing New Horizons VS Wild World
Pokémon gen 7-8 VS 3-4

Having said that, yeah, I tried the black-Anne-Boleyn series and switched off pretty fast cos it had nothing new whatsoever to convey and was blatantly just relying on its ethnicity gimmick.

You and many others. The thing was a ratings disaster.

Our moderator and others may take some amusement from this headline:

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/jun/02/michael-grade-too-lazy-old-to-lead-ofcom-jean-seaton-bbc-historian-hay

Is GOOD headline.

Christopher H Bidmead in DWM: '"I enjoyed creating Adric. I was very keen on this bright young mathematics genius whose name is an anagram of Dirac." Chris is referring to the Nobel Prize-winning quantum physicist Paul Dirac. "But then Matthew Waterhouse turned up."'

Ouch.

Also, re State of Decay: 'I said to Terrance, "This is first-draft stuff. Thanks very much. It's full of life and action. But I wonder if, in Scene 5, we could...?" And Terrance, almost in tears, said, "But - but - then I've got to type it out all over again"' - BLESS!

OK, this article starts off with Gatiss not being invited back - YAY! (sure, without a sequel to Sleep No More this means that everyone in the solar system dissolves in the thirty-eighth century but I'm perfectly cool with that, it's a small price to pay) and gets quite serious quite fast...

For those who did not know what the late Ron Jones had looked like:
https://imgur.com/a/WUkhEeV

Gatiss Guardian interview - don't bother clicking on it, it barely MENTIONS Who, what struck me was '"These Tories, it’s a misnomer to call them Conservatives. What are they conserving? They’re sort of anarchists, disaster capitalists" He has always been obsessed with politics, he says} - why did he never do a really grotesque Who story about the Tories? Maybe it wouldn't have worked but it WOULD have been a hell of a lot less dreary than Sleep No More, Empress of Mars, Night Terrors, Cold War...

A Torchwood return has been teased by Phil Ford.

Got this quote from him on facebook:
“I think there’s every case for bringing back a version of Torchwood. But the thing about Doctor Who is the universe is so huge over all these years, over 60 years, there’s so many places you could go to to develop spin-offs. But I honestly have no idea what is going on in the great man’s mind so we’ll have to wait and find out.

I think there’s every chance. Even if it was going back in time to an earlier iteration of Torchwood, which in fact we did do in the show. But absolutely, I don’t see why we couldn’t do that. It’s science fiction, it’s Doctor Who, you could do all sorts of things - as I’m sure will happen!"

YES! GIMME!

How about the early days of Torchwood, just after queen Victoria decreed its creation and they start getting things set up?

Ooh, yes please!

Though those Torchwood lesbians from Fragments were VICIOUS, I'm not sure anything Who-related will want to push the SHOOT ALL ALIENS message quite so...enthusiastically.

Ugh! Another step backwards.
No thanks.

No reason we shouldn't have loads of new series as well as the resurrection of loads of old ones.

Well, no reason except that Disney seem to be doing quite badly these days...

The writer of Terminus says Capaldi should have had better stories.

Alright, so Capaldi SHOULD have had better stories, that's not the POINT.

"The more I think of Dr Who, the more it depresses me and I can't bear the thought of it. I hope it never happens."

- Waris Hussein, 30 May 1963

Truly, he was the first Doctor Who fan!

TRAITOR! TRAITOR! TRAITOR!

(Mind you, I'd probably have said the same if I'd had to film the Unearthly Child script but that's entirely beside the point...)

An Unearthly Child hadn't even been commissioned yet. At this point C.E. Webber was still writing 'The Giants' and the production team had just learned that they were going to be stuck in the worst possible studios the BBC had on offer.

He tried to rob me - er, us - of SIXTY GLORIOUS YEARS cos he didn't want Lime Grove D (or whatever-it-was)?

Death is too good for him.

Wow. Just wow Emily. You really have no filter of pause for thought before typing do you? Wishing death on someone because they once over 60 years voiced a question about a yet to be produced show? Would you say that to his face? No? Then don’t say it here.

Well, I thought, unlike him, you were all used to me by now but fair enough, I'll try not to say anything I wouldn't say to someone's face...

Moffat on Newsnight

...Yeah, he's totally coming back, isn't he...

I hope not

*Bwahahahas like the Master on an unusually successful day*

Sunshine, I got meself the Glorious Return of a Russell T God, a TennantDoc, a Donna, a Wilf, a Rose* even a Murray Gold, the chances of me NOT also acquiring a Moff via the power of my mind/blind luck/a paucity of new talent/the grace of god(s)** are...slight.

(Admittedly I'm a bit concerned about the lack of any indication that Tom n'JODIE! are blessing our Sixtieth, but no doubt that's due to their appearances being kept as a Glorious Surprise.)

If it's any consolation, just remember how much better the episodes The Moff wrote for RTG were than the episodes he wrote for himself...

*Admittedly not quite the Rose I had in mind.

**Delete as appropriate.

Segun Akinola - My Life in a Mixtape:
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001sfmw

Part of Radio 2's Doctor Who 60th anniversary celebrations as Segun Akinola presents the soundtracks of his life and career.

This includes Defying Gravity from Wicked which has the words of being through with playing the rules of someone else's game.

Coincidentally it is now almost ten years since The Time of the Doctor in which 11 in his last moments tells the Daleks never tell him the rules especially since it is someone else's in this case the Time Lords' rules of regeneration.

Grey's Anatomy creator Shonda Rhimes wishes she had made Doctor Who herself:
https://deadline.com/2024/04/shonda-rhimes-bridgerton-doctor-who-russell-t-davies-1235884593/


"Rhimes, the creator of Bridgerton which returns for a third season on Netflix in May, told The Times of London she enjoys watching other TV shows including Succession, Beef and The Bear, but there is one she wishes she had created –the UK’s longrunning sci-fi epic Doctor Who.

She said: “I have been obsessed with that show for ever.”

And when she met Doctor Who’s show-runner, Russell T Davies, credited with rebooting the show over a decade ago and bringing it to new heights? “I was so nervous.”"