It's just occurred to me: Season 6/32 was the first New Who year not to re-introduce a major old monster/villain. (1: Daleks, 2: Cybermen, 3: Sontarans and Master, 4: Davros, 5: Silurians.) Given the Moffat era's hit-and-miss (but mainly miss) record on redesign, I'm not COMPLAINING, but I am wondering why, say, the Ice Warriors didn't get their long-awaited return.

Of course, the Silence were being billed as a Major New Utterly-Terrifying Monster so maybe they just didn't want to draw attention away from THEM.

And come to think of it, the Silence were also being billed as an Old Monster, right back to the days of the wheel and the fire...

Feels to me like the Silence was created to cater for the Americans obsession with conspiracy theories and secret societies who are the real blokes in charge, with "official" governments being only their puppets. One more try to break into that big new world market accross the pond. Us canadians are much too smart to fall for such obvious ploys.

=8)

Americans aren't. We're convinced every terrible thing that happens, and even some good things like the Moon landing, are govt plots to control us. The Men in Black are real.

IIRC the Ogrons were once considered to be one of the top 5 Who monsters, so I'm surprised we've never seen them in New Who.

Then again when Star Trek redesigned the Klingons for The Motion Picture they ended up looking suspiciously like the Ogrons, so maybe the people in charge are afraid they'll be accused of "ripping off" the Klingons if they bring back the Ogrons?

Francois - the Americans obsession with conspiracy theories and secret societies who are the real blokes in charge
Please don't confuse insane Hollywood nutcases with normal Americans. Just because the majority of people in charge of making American entertainment are obsessed with those things is not proof that the majority of the country is. If people watch it, it could just be a case of "It's the only thing on". I mean really, does the output of the BBC really reflect most of the people in England. I doubt it.

>Please don't confuse insane Hollywood nutcases with normal Americans. Just because the majority of people in charge
>of making American entertainment are obsessed with those things is not proof that the majority of the country is.

Fair enough. American's "percieved" obsession with conspiracy theories would be a better way of putting it.

I'm not sure how "perceived" it is. Just read the comments on msnbc.com. (Or Fox News, but I'm too scared to go over there.)

IIRC the Ogrons were once considered to be one of the top 5 Who monsters

Seriously? Actually I shouldn't be surprised, after the undisputed Top Two Monsters things are up for grabs and there's no reason I should take so literally A Celebration's announcement that it's Daleks-Cybermen-Sontarans-Ice-Warriors-Yeti. Ogrons appeared as often as Yeti and were a HELL of a lot more scary. AND funny.

Then again when Star Trek redesigned the Klingons for The Motion Picture they ended up looking suspiciously like the Ogrons, so maybe the people in charge are afraid they'll be accused of "ripping off" the Klingons if they bring back the Ogrons?

Oh, no one's gonna bother their heads about the opinions of TREKKIES, especially if we can prove that THEY were ripping US off.

. Ogrons appeared as often as Yeti and were a HELL of a lot more scary. AND funny.


But Ogrons were never the principle monster; they were always working for someone else.

Daleks and Cybermen are definitely the top two. Below them, there's a bunch in joint third; Sontarans, Autons, the Silence, maybe the Weeping Angels. Ice Warriors and Rutans might get a place in that group too, if they appeared in a modern episode. All the rest are also-rans.

But Ogrons were never the principle monster; they were always working for someone else.

But even as secondary characters, they had such, well, CHARACTER. A home planet and superstitions and phobias and even a god - OK, an orange balloon, but still, it's more than plenty of MAJOR monsters get. The Ogrons are crying out for a proper exploration.

And come to think of it, they actually got it in the NAs and MAs. Sometimes they'd pull a little girl's arms off (Toy Soldiers). Sometimes, to the Doctor's utter disbelief, they'd do the noble self-sacrifice thing (So Vile a Sin). And sometimes they'd get their brains enhanced and become a rather adorable detective (Shakedown, Mean Streets).

All the rest are also-rans.

You don't mean also-rans! You mean wonderful ONE-OFFs, like the Jaggaroth or the Osirians or the Voord...

Moffat: 'I always say new monsters are better in Doctor Who because you fall in love with monsters when they're new.' - What a weird thing to say. You fall in love with - sorry, you cower behind the sofa from - monsters the first time you see 'em. Doesn't MATTER whether they happen to be fifty years old or not.

I like new monsters. We all know what Daleks and Cybermen are about; they're almost boring these days. New monsters create new challenges.

I like new monsters.

Me too, but I seldom fall in love with them.

We all know what Daleks and Cybermen are about; they're almost boring these days.

Are NOT!

New Who has made HERCULEAN efforts to make 'em fresh and interesting - sometimes successful (an insane Dalek God-Emperor! A lone Dalek we FEEL SORRY for!) sometimes...not (a half-human Dalek; the new Dalek Paradigm).

New monsters create new challenges.

Not THAT new. The Doc n'pals'll still zip them with the sonic screwdriver/scare 'em off-planet/climb a tall building to connect up a cable/make 'em see the error of their ways/•••• them into a void, etc etc...

'If I can stop whatever's in this box getting out, they'll all go home!' - Doctor in Pandorica Opens. What exactly, in his 900 years of experience of Daleks, Cybermen, Silurians, Sontarans, Autons, et al, made him merrily assume that they wouldn't invade/obliterate Earth just for the sheer FUN of it?

What exactly, in his 900 years of experience of Daleks, Cybermen, Silurians, Sontarans, Autons, et al, made him merrily assume that they wouldn't invade/obliterate Earth just for the sheer FUN of it?

The fact that HE would have been standing in their way, and that they may have been willing to face the monster in the Pandorica but would probably not have dared risk facing the wrath of the Doctor, or something like that.

Well they couldn't very well invade Earth at the same time. None could take victory or ownership if they all did it, and the only other way would be to work together, and that would take the fun out of it and eliminate whatever strategic advantage Earth apparently offers.

Obliterate though...that's a different story. But despite all that firepower, it would only take one of those species to push the button.

So. Following Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS, New Earth, Waters of Mars, Empty Child, Unquiet Dead, etc etc (OK, so I'm using 'etc etc' cos I've run out of examples...hang on, there's always the Torchwood novel Bay of the Dead, not to mention the zombification of the entire population of London on a weekly basis in the Sarah Jane Adventures...come to think of it, why are there no zombies in Old Who?)...Anyway: have the zombies earned their own section in Monsters? And if they have...is there actually anything to DISCUSS about the brainless cretins??

I don't know. Zombies are too generic to be considered Whoniverse monsters. Daleks, cybermen, weeping angels are all quite specific to Who, but zombies exist in far too many other venues to qualify.

On the other hand, humans have their own section, so I really don't know.

The Doctor meets The Walking Dead

Emily - Why are there no zombies in Old Who?"

There have sort of been variations on that-- the Robomen of The Dalek Invasion of Earth come to mind. And I think we've seen mindless, trudgling humans since then.
But you're right- no zombies as we see them on TV and movies.

And I think we've seen mindless, trudgling humans since then.

Practically every week in the Sarah Jane Adventures...

Emily, on Sontarans: I just...assumed...all these species we've seen DID have women. Chained to the kitchen sink somewhere off-camera.

Or we could have seen the women, and not recognised them. If male and female zygons looked identical to human eyes, sexist human language would lead to people assigning them all the male gender by default.

Terrestrial life alone provides many more options than we've seen on screen - species that routinely change from male to female, or vice versa, with age, for instance - and alien biology could easily be weirder still. Imagine life with three sexes, or seventeen.

Presumably, the BBC doesn't consider alien sex lives suitable family viewing, so they censor those bits, which is a shame. We don't need explicit details of their sexual practices, of course, but it'd be nice to have some indication they weren't all exactly like us.

If male and female zygons looked identical to human eyes, sexist human language would lead to people assigning them all the male gender by default.

It's not just sexist HUMAN languages, the aliens themselves could have used such disgusting and inaccurate language - didn't Omega say something about his Time Lord BROTHERS abandoning him?

Presumably, the BBC doesn't consider alien sex lives suitable family viewing, so they censor those bits, which is a shame. We don't need explicit details of their sexual practices, of course, but it'd be nice to have some indication they weren't all exactly like us.

But if the BBC was happy, in 1972, to have Pertwee booming 'It's a Hermaphrodite Hexapod!' (in front of the kiddies!) why would Who have been covering such things up ever since then - IF there were plenty of other such species around the place? You'd think Russell T God would have had a field day...

the aliens themselves could have used such disgusting and inaccurate language

Remember, we're only hearing an English translation. We have no idea how sexist the original language is.

if the BBC was happy, in 1972, to have Pertwee booming 'It's a Hermaphrodite Hexapod!' (in front of the kiddies!)

Were they happy though? Notice they never did it again. Did orders come down from on high?

Of course, people who think the programme is complete fiction would just say it shows the writers lack imagination, but who cares what they think?

Remember, we're only hearing an English translation. We have no idea how sexist the original language is.

I don't see why Sexy should translate something as sexist if it isn't. On the other hand, the translation IS routed through the Doctor and he's a bit of a male chauvinist pig.

if the BBC was happy, in 1972, to have Pertwee booming 'It's a Hermaphrodite Hexapod!' (in front of the kiddies!)

Were they happy though? Notice they never did it again. Did orders come down from on high?

Probably not, as Alpha Centuri came back...

Of course, people who think the programme is complete fiction would just say it shows the writers lack imagination, but who cares what they think?

Well, QUITE. Losers!

Probably not, as Alpha Centuri came back...

So why no other hermaphrodites? Why should almost every intelligent species have two sexes on the human model.

There are two obvious explanations. Either the BBC decided they didn't want to show the myriad other options, or Rassilon imposed human-style sexes on the universe when he was making sure most aliens would look humanoid.

It does seem the kind of thing Rassilon would do, but in the absence of evidence I prefer to blame the BBC. That way, there's a chance policies will change, and we'll see some aliens with interestingly weird sex lives.

Why should almost every intelligent species have two sexes on the human model.
Well, the human model is hard to avoid. As Gene Roddenberry once remarked he'd like to have more aliens on Star Trek, but there are very few in the Actors Guild. ;-)

As for the two sexes well... what's the most common mode of sexual reproduction amongst all known life forms?

All known other forms are usually found in microscopic organisms (apparently there are some microscopic organisms on earth with five sexes). 8-/

It would seem that, in general, two sexes provides a good balance between producing too many offspring and not enough offspring.

Well, the human model is hard to avoid.

Looking human is hard to avoid. Acting human isn't. Just tweak the dialogue a little, to imply the aliens fall outside the human norm.

All known other forms are usually found in microscopic organisms (apparently there are some microscopic organisms on earth with five sexes). 8-/

Plenty of fungi have more than two sexes, but this isn't just about the number of sexes. Looking at terrestrial life alone provides a lot of other options.

Many plants are hermaphrodites. Some practice 'alternation of generations' - one generation is entirely neuter, but produces both male and female offspring, looking very different to the parent, which then mate with each other to produce neuter plants, just like their grandparent.

Bees, and related insects, typically only have one fertile female per hive, with a lot of infertile sisters, effectively neuter.

Some animals change sex during their life. If it's advantageous to have a large female with an harem of smaller males, then what sometimes happens is that all the animals start out male, but when the top female dies, the largest male under her turns female, and takes her place.

There are other species, where males benefit more from being larger, where they all start out female, then turn male when they get big enough.

And then there are some deep sea fish, where once a male finds a mate, he grabs hold and never lets go. They discard virtually all their internal organs as unneeded, becoming little more than bags of sperm. They don't even eat for themselves, being instead fed by drinking their mate's blood.

That purple bulge on the next alien warlord's hip could turn out to be her 'husband'.

There are also less radical options that could be explored. Like many earth species, the aliens could practice external fertilisation, which removes a lot of the evolutionary pressure for males and females to look different. The aliens, of both sexes, could cast their seed into the sea every spring solstice. The gametes can then meet up without the parents ever seeing each other, to produce the next generation.

After three years and three months of ocean life, the offspring metamorphose into the adult form, and crawl out of the sea, where the adults round them up and force them into school.

Such aliens wouldn't have anything resembling human family life, since none of them would have the faintest idea who their parents were, and the males would look just like the females.

And all this is only the start of how strange Earthly biology can be.

Either the BBC decided they didn't want to show the myriad other options, or Rassilon imposed human-style sexes on the universe when he was making sure most aliens would look humanoid.

Trouble is, Rassilon only Anchored The Thread/Banished The Carnival Queen in a couple of Lawrence Miles Who novels and his Faction Paradox universe. There's no on-screen indication that Rassilon rewrote the fabric of the universe when the Time Lords stood alone at the beginning of time - quite the contrary, as there actually seem to be 'Fledgling Empires' contemporaneous with the earliest Time Lords.

It does seem the kind of thing Rassilon would do, but in the absence of evidence I prefer to blame the BBC. That way, there's a chance policies will change, and we'll see some aliens with interestingly weird sex lives.

If it didn't happen in the RTG era it's hardly gonna happen NOW.

Many plants are hermaphrodites

Hmm. Come to think of it, that Krynoid was remarkably good at getting itself knocked up with numerous offspring...

Bees, and related insects, typically only have one fertile female per hive, with a lot of infertile sisters, effectively neuter.

We kinda had that with the Chimerons, didn't we.

That purple bulge on the next alien warlord's hip could turn out to be her 'husband'.

Ah. Yes. Jago & Litefoot: Voyage to Venus.

DWM Planet of the Spiders review: '"Squabbling rubber": it's when two men in monster costumes (or in this case, two puppets) are left talking to each other, and any sense of reality slowly but surely dissolves. It's Monoids One and Two, Styggron and Chedaki, and here Lupton's Spider and her Queen, twitching furiously at each other...A human character's response is needed to sell a monster to us' - is that TRUE? Surely Monoids and Spiders are rubbish with or without humans around? And I happen to think that Styggron and Chedaki are GREAT together. And I'm very fond of Jenny Flint but I don't doubt for a moment that Madame Vastra and Strax would have been more than capable of carrying their scenes, and indeed an entire series of their own, without her. And the Dalek/Cyberman confrontation would have been a pleasure even without Mickey-the-Idiot helpfully and not-entirely-convincingly telling us it's like Stephen Hawking meeting the Speaking Clock.

But now you mention it, even New Who, with its Dalek v Cybermen Wars, it's Alliance of Evil AND it's monster-armies-in-the-skies-above-Trenzalore...ALWAYS has some bloody humanoid around the place...

Any chance the Doctor can do something about Putin?

Doubt it. We brought him upon ourselves. Admittedly we brought a LOT of disasters the Doctor saved us from upon ourselves, but none of the Zaroffs etc had the support of MILLIONS, did they?

Or maybe it's a Web of Time thing...though if the Doctor thought time was in flux enough to envisage a Silurian-filled future from 2020(ish) onwards, surely removing Putin wouldn't do THAT much harm? Especially as he'd almost certainly be replaced by ANOTHER lying sexist homophobic dissident-murdering other-county-invading Russian MALE...

Yeah - the so-called Cold War generation don't seem to worry about having left us with filthy air, dirty water, acid rain, and half a million nuclear warheads.

'Humanoid menaces are scarier than huge amorphous monsters...Compare the man-sized Krynoid stalking corridors in an Antarctic base to the giant model which has to be taken out by UNIT missiles...CGI Satan might be hugely cool and impressive, but it can't hold a candle to...a man with marker-pen symbols on his face' - DWM. That's actually a very good point. And an excellent excuse for all those men in rubber suits - it WASN'T just the budget after all!

Or am I just traumatised for life by the sight of Kroll?

What if the Master were combined with Davros?

[electronically distorted 'Davros' voice] I am the Master! I! I! I!

They do have a lot in common. Hysterical megalomaniacs one minute and seductively suave the next. And both utterly obsessed by the Doctor (not that I'm in a position to criticise...).

ROBERT in New Series: Season Eight: Listen:

if 90 out of 100 monsters the Doctor meets are male, it's only natural to assume any new monster is probably male too.

Are you SURE they're all male? Or are you just ASSUMING that all those Yeti/Ice Warriors/Judoon/Taran Wood Beasts/Mandrells/Daleks/Cybermen/Reapers/Sycorax etc have XY chromosomes? Despite all the monsters we actually see naked mercifully NOT having exterior genitals?

We've seen plenty of women turned into Daleks and Cybermen, after all.

Christmas on a Rational Planet's claim that Davros only used male Kaled genetic material to create his creatures, or that DWM comic about the Sycorax's widows are, of course, non-canonical.

I'm perfectly prepared to agree that Sontarans are all blokes, though. No female comes out with lines like 'Surrender your women and intellectuals!'

Are you SURE they're all male?

I suppose quite a lot of them could be neuter. Neither Sontarans nor Cybermen reproduce sexually, for example, so they're all functionally neuter, even if they do have vestigal traces of gender.

Or are you just ASSUMING that all those Yeti/Ice Warriors/Judoon/Taran Wood Beasts/Mandrells/Daleks/Cybermen/Reapers/Sycorax etc have XY chromosomes?

In birds, it's the females who have XY chromosomes, though biologists call them Z & W instead, in an attempt to reduce confusion.

That aside, we can be fairly sure none of that parade have wombs from the way they walk. It's pretty clear that their hips simply aren't wide enough to fit a baby through.

They could be egg-layers, of course, but I can't see many of the monsters spending umpteen months sitting on a nest.

Also, weren't the Yeti all robots?

's claim that Davros only used male Kaled genetic material to create his creatures ...

Seemed pretty plausible to me. We know he was a racist, so why not a sexist too?

Seemed pretty plausible to me. We know he was a racist, so why not a sexist too?

It would complicate the process. If the Daleks are meant to become the dominant, if not the only lifeform in the universe, they need to be able to reproduce, something that is much harder to achieve with only males.

If the Daleks are meant to become the dominant, if not the only lifeform in the universe, they need to be able to reproduce

Which can be done by cloning, in the Dalek factories.

I don't recall anything that suggests the Kaled mutants get out of their casings and physically mate, but there are episodes that suggest Daleks are made on a production line, consistent with them all being clones of Davros's original design.

Yes, cloning is technically complicated, but it's still easier for Davros to handle than sexual reproduction, which means designing a way for the mutant to survive outside its casing for extended periods, and making provision for pregnant Daleks.

I'm perfectly prepared to agree that Sontarans are all blokes, though. No female comes out with lines like 'Surrender your women and intellectuals!'

Asexual, surely. Linx was genuinely surprised we have 'a primary and a secondary reproductive cycle' and suggested we change this inefficient system, and Strax still has trouble distinguishing human genders. Even the ones who appear masculine to us (one anyway) has a fully-functioning nipple.

Davros only used male Kaled genetic material to create his creatures

Well, now that long, straight, hard, gun that sticks out and rises up and down has a completely different meaning in my mind. *shakes head*

But what does that make the suction cup arm?

'There's a horror movie called Alien? That's offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.'

Do we FINALLY have an explanation?

Strictly speaking, do we NEED an explanation? We don't know how often OTHER planets get invaded.

We can be pretty •••• sure it's less than us though, or said planets wouldn't still BE there (the Doctor being too busy saving Earth all the time to bother with them). And look at all those invasion fleets who've swept past Mars to get to us...not to mention the Zygon fleet spending CENTURIES in transit to Earth when they could have stopped off at a nice uninhabited planet to settle down ANYTIME.

So it's just us and Tivoli who got REALLY unlucky for some reason.

I have a sneaking fondness for the use of actors in rubber suits to portray creatures - it may not be as polished as CGI, but there's a rawness and immediacy to the performances inherent in having the creatures right there, which simply can't be replicated when acting to green screen.

I guess it is better than what they did in the movie "Beginning of the End", which was just grasshoppers crawling up and down photos of Chicago...

I have a sneaking fondness for the use of actors in rubber suits to portray creatures - it may not be as polished as CGI, but there's a rawness and immediacy to the performances inherent in having the creatures right there, which simply can't be replicated when acting to green screen.

Oh, I dunno. If you've got a good actor they can surely act to a green screen as well as to a rubber suit.

It's when they mix the two (a la the Slitheen chase in Downing Street) that even I notice smething is amiss...

I guess it is better than what they did in the movie "Beginning of the End", which was just grasshoppers crawling up and down photos of Chicago...

Brilliant! Why did Who never embarrass itself in this manner?

Despite the Silence, Scaroth, the Fendahl, the Osirans etc, the Whoniverse is not very far ahead of us at all, and judging by some of the groovy 1960s reel-to-reel tapes on their computers in the future, they might even be behind us.

They're definitely more advanced than us. It's just that in the Whoniverse all computer engineers are hipsters with a retro aesthetic.

There must be some twisted connection between parallel universes (or those would be some REALLY incredible coincidences in Inferno and Rise of the Cybermen) and the Web of Time that we just don't understand. Neil Armstrong was DESTINED to be the first person to set foot on the Moon, whether or not an occupying alien force spent thousands of years working towards it. We were DESTINED to win World War Two the hard way, and never mind all Torchwood's alien tech. And Pete's World managed to survive despite this being FRANKLY IMPOSSIBLE due to its Doctorless state.

And, after all, Scaroth might have overestimated his influence - he WAS a total nutter, poor darling - and the Doctor admitted he could be grossly overestimating the Fendahl's effect on humanity, and the Exxilons didn't do anything but build an Aztec temple or two, and the Osirians only affected the Egyptians, and that Daemon was obviously a liar (Atlantis, indeed!). And of course, WE might have Silence too. I mean, how would we TELL?

Never thought about this before, but if the events of Water of Mars were a fixed point, doesn't the 1980 scene of Pyramids of Mars contradict it? Even if humanity somehow came back after that, they couldn't rebuild society to the point where they're on Mars by then.

I don't think Bowie Base was literally a Fixed Point in the way that Eleven-lookalike-on-the-shores-of-Lake-Silencio was. It was just an integral part of human history - unless humans got wiped out before then.

Come to think of it, that doesn't really help, does it. There wouldn't have BEEN a Lake Silencio if Sutekh had had his way.

The way I see it, Fixed Points are only relatively fixed. They're a lot harder to change than most of history, and changing them can have dire consequences, but they can be changed if someone sufficiently powerful intervenes in history.

Sutekh qualifies, as would the Rani's giant Time Brain, if she'd be able to get it working, but very little else.

Oh, the Rani's Giant Time Brain is NOTHING, it's the detonation of the Dark Matter Asteroid that will...

Um...

Do REALLY IMPORTANT STUFF to the universe.

Or something.

Wouldn't Scaroth also qualify, had he succeeded?

The way I see it, Fixed Points are only relatively fixed. They're a lot harder to change than most of history, and changing them can have dire consequences, but they can be changed if someone sufficiently powerful intervenes in history.

IS River Song sufficiently powerful? The Doctor certainly didn't think she'd be a Complex Space-Time Event enough to close the Crack in Flesh and Stone, yet SHE managed to fracture time itself to change a Fixed Point.

I think it might be more a matter of accuracy, like cutting a diamond. You have to know exactly where to hit or it will just shatter into dust. Fixed points might be like Gordian knots, a complex entanglement of timelines that must be thoroughly understood if one is to move a thread without the whole thing falling apart.

IS River Song sufficiently powerful? ... yet SHE managed to fracture time itself to change a Fixed Point.

But did she do that by herself, unaided? Or was she just a tool used by a greater power?

The greater power (well, the Silence anyway) WANTED her to off the Doc so yeah, I think it WAS herself unaided.

Partway through "The Daemons," which does remind me to point out another annoyance of the early Pertwee stories (that "The Daemons" isn't quite as guilty of): The mole. There's always an inside man. And you usually know who he is within 2 minutes. The Doctor knows who he is even earlier--the General in "Ambassadors of Death" (and/or "Invasion of the Dinosaurs"), the "colonist survivor" in "Colony in Space." Heck, even the other characters are suspicious of the guy--but the Brigadier keeps the General right in the loop still; The colonists have the mining company spy take a gun and stand up on the catwalk behind them. At least in "The Daemons" it seems like the Master's lackeys are a bit more subtle.

Many Pertwee stories would be greatly improved by the inclusion of a mole like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfRklobwkXk

Many Pertwee stories would be greatly improved by the inclusion of a mole like this

Well, it's more realistic than some Giant Rats or Taran Wood Beasts I could mention...

There's always an inside man. And you usually know who he is within 2 minutes

The Pertwee era is NOTHING compared to Terror of the Zygons. Where Tom leaves Sarah alone with someone who has I AM A ZYGON practically tattooed across his forehead for no readily apparent reason...

And the novelization of Zygons states the Doctor KNEW, he just assumed there was some kind of unspoken agreement that the Zygon wouldn't hurt her. *rolls eyes*

Well, credit to Uncle Tewwance, he was TRYING. In a way he didn't usually BOTHER in his post-Auton-Invasion novelisations. That nit was too blatant even for him...

I like how The Robots of Death and Voyage of the Damned have some of the more unlikeable characters survive (Commander Uvanov and Rickston Slade).

And unlikeable for exactly the same reason: they cared about profits infinitely more than they cared about people. You'd think Voyage did enough ripping-off of Robots of Death with the robots alone...

Uvanov's a bit of a grouch but basically lovable surely?

I DO have a soft spot for him, but there's a lovely moment when he says something like 'You have cost the Company a lot of money. In addition, you have murdered two people...'

A Dalek, a Cyberman, and a Weeping Angel walked into a bar Cloister and...

um...

Well, didn't do anything at all, really.

I'm still trying to make up my mind whether this is a compliment to all three species (they don't have to DO anything! They're so iconic they just have to look pretty for a few seconds and voila! an entire episode, redeemed!) or an insult (you're SO monster-dependent you have to wheel 'em out for an 'Exterminate!' 'Delete!' cameo and expect us to ooh and aahh and not ask what the HELL they're doing impotently hanging around on Gallifrey?!).

A bit of both, maybe. But one day, yes, one day, Who may possibly have the guts to have a Hartnell-style bug-eyed-monster-free episode....

DWM: '"The character of Sil is one of the great monsters that was created for my era," Colin Baker says, proudly' - ONE of them? Care to name any others, Colin...?

The Multi-coloured Coat? ;-)

One of the things i remember growing up was all those "stranger danger" public service announcements aimed at children. Looking back, it's kind of concerning that children were rarely warned against strange women. At least with characters like Missy from Doctor Who we now teach children that strange women are also capable of being dangerous.

Care to name any others, Colin...?

Well, I suppose he could have been thinking of the Rani or the Valeyard, or maybe even something from one of the episodes planned before they came up with Trial of a Timelord.

maybe even something from one of the episodes planned before they came up with Trial of a Timelord

Like the Celestial Toymaker, the Ice Warriors, the Autons, the Master and Sil again?

Ooh boy, I love Kate's posts. Each is like the tastiest Easter egg or the best Xmas present.

At least with characters like Missy from Doctor Who we now teach children that strange women are also capable of being dangerous.

DANGEROUS yeah, but who WOULDN'T follow Missy into her TARDIS/Afterlife/across Skaro armed only with a pointy stick...? Certainly not ME.

Well, I suppose he could have been thinking of the Rani or the Valeyard

Colin Baker is a generous-hearted soul, but he surely can't be quite THAT generous.

Ooh boy, I love Kate's posts. Each is like the tastiest Easter egg or the best Xmas present.

She DOES have the knack of sliding in the stiletto in a way that doesn't •••• off anyone (give or take V117) TOO much. Would that I could master such a skill...

Queers Dig Time Lords: 'Harry M. Benshoff...wrote a critical book in the late 90s called Monsters in the Closet, which focused on oblique representations of homosexuality in horror films down the ages...these monstrous specters erupting into the horror text as a revolutionary, subversive act – the monster breaks into the heterosexual romance and plunges all the characters into Queer chaos...But...that doesn't work for Doctor Who, in quite the same way. In the classic series, the Doctor was never involved in the heterosexual romance plot...The monster in Doctor Who could be seen to have quite the opposite function...Is it perhaps the force of homogenization...? The Daleks, Cybermen, Sontarans all want to make everyone exactly like themselves...' - Very interesting points but why the hell didn't anything change when Our Hero DID *shudders* become the heterosexual romantic hero?

The Daleks, Cybermen, Sontarans all want to make everyone exactly like themselves...'

Only the Cybermen want that. Daleks and Sontarans just want to exterminate and enslave everyone.

But Daleks DO sometimes harvest humans to turn them into PURE AND BLESS-ED DALEK (Revelation, Parting of the Ways). And I'm not sure WHAT Sontarans want but didn't Linx once tell us that we should change our inefficient reproductive system to be more like Sontarans...?

Remember the Star Trek spoof Galaxy Quest where, despite his hatred for the role, Sir Alexander Dane is never seen without his alien make-up on? He even wears it at home by himself.

Which Doctor Who monster actor would do the same, do you think?

Sutekh.

Yeah, he would be the one.

I dunno, having a full mask over your face on a permanent basis might get...restricting. Whereas quite a few men might regard the half-mask of a Draconian as a small price to pay for enabling 'em to spout sexist drivel day and night...And, after all, if Pertwee allegedly forgot he was addressing an actor and started treating him like a Draconian...

What would DW monsters (the majors, not the mooks) think of the actors who play them in our world?

Someone asked me what the Delgado Master would think of Roger Delgado?

Come to think of it, what IS the first bug-eyed monster to turn up on the show? The Brains of Morphoton? They are monsters, and the bugged-out eyes on stalks are their most monstrous aspect. I wonder what Sydney thought of them. I can hear Verity now ... "They're not bug-eyes, Sydney, they've got pupils." To which Sydney replies, "•••• it, woman, you knew what I meant!"

This thread should be retitled.

We have threads for humans and Time Lords here. They hardly apply as "Monsters".

In what conceivable way are Time Lords and Humans not monsters?

Sure, not ALL of us are monsters, but not all Silurians (darling Vastra!), Sontarans (darling Strax!), Daleks (darling Alpha, Beta and Omega!), Cybermen (darling Handles!), Autons (darling Rory!), Machines (darling K9!) etc etc are monsters either...

Might I suggest the title: Other Who Characters

Tim - We have threads for humans and Time Lords here. They hardly apply as "Monsters".

You should watch a movie called The Monster Club... well, not the whole thing just the last 5-10 minutes.

Might I suggest the title: Other Who Characters

Hell no.

'It's the way it's always been. The monsters and the Doctor. It seems you cannot have one without the other.'

I've seen that movie, Keith, and I know what you mean:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monster_Club

Daleks. the ••••••• offspring of Terry Nation and a bearded lady.

Darth Vader is copied from Omega in the 3 doctors

Lots of good monsters for Halloween.

Which Monster Are You?

I'm a Silurian which I s'pose could've been worse (there's a picture of a PTING there!) but I think they may be getting 'needs a lot of sleep due to chronic fatigue' confused with 'falls asleep for billions of years cos too stupid to set an alarm clock'...

Apparently, I'm also a Silurian. Go figure.

You are… a Weeping Angel!
You are quantum-locked alien killer, as old as the universe itself. Cruel, evil and unstoppable, you feed on potential energy, throwing your victims back in time. Just make sure you don’t gaze upon one of your fellow Angels!

You are quantum-locked alien killer, as old as the universe itself. Cruel, evil and unstoppable

Respect!

Just make sure you don’t gaze upon one of your fellow Angels!

Not much chance of THAT when the rest of us are just stupid lizards *pouts*...

Anyone know what a Neil Patrick Harris is? Cos RTG's claiming he's the greatest enemy the Doctor has ever faced.

Yes. He's a well-liked American actor, who's had quite a bit of work through the years.

His first big role was as a child doctor so maybe he'll be a Timeless Child? ;-)

Then again he was in Doctor Evil's Sing Along Blog, so maybe he & the Doctor will battle in song?

Here's his IMDB page listing all the lesser programmes he was in that you never heard of.

Anyone who is familiar with Harris' character in How I Met Your Mother will understand when I say that he decided to accept this challenge.

It would be rather nice if he lived up to the hype and New Who actually gave us a new villain worthy of joining the Monsters section...

Maybe he'll be the regeneration of Mary Whitehouse? ;-)

Anyone know what a Neil Patrick Harris is?

His big breakthrough role was in a series called 'Doogie Howser, MD', which was first shown in the UK on Wednesday evenings opposite Coronation Street in the Autumn of 1990, instead of whatever had been in that slot over the previous couple of years.

Oh. Suggestions that he's POSSIBLE SPOILERS the Celestial Toymaker and not a NEW villain at all...

Though I fail to see how HE'D be the greatest enemy the Doc's ever faced, though I may be prejudiced from a bunch of pretty awful audio n'novel follow-ups...

Mr. Popplewick from Trial of a Time Lord!

Wasn't he the Valeyard? If RTG had said the WORST enemy the Doctor had ever faced fair enough..

That would Harris the Doctor.

I meant for my previous post:
That would make Harris the Doctor.

Well, one Doctor more or less wouldn't make much difference...

Neil Patrick Harris on being in Doctor Who's 60th Anniversary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUGvtsGoUiM