Moderator's Note: Moved from the 'Monsters: Metaphorical Villains' thread:

When I...accidentally...wandered into Gallifrey Base's Spoilers section (look, I was DESPERATE, OK?!) and saw the Great Intelligence was almost certainly preparing for a glorious return, I was all set to give it its own section (THREE appearances! One more - on TV, at least - than the Monk or the Rani) but it was such a mess in The Snowmen that I won't bother. I mean, I'm sure there was SOMETHING hilarious going on about the Doctor accidentally making the Great Intelligence think the London Underground was a key strategic point, but I'm damned if I can work out WHAT.

A great villain needs to be coherent. The GI was an utter mess. Why not PUSH a few humans into a few ponds and see which one, um...does whatever the Latimer governess's corpse did that's so special...instead of leaving it to chance, and ONE chance at that? And as for all this low-level telepathic field/mindless foot-soldiers/mimics/evolution according to perfect duplicates/perfect fusion of ice and humanity/learning to survive beyond the physical/dream outlives the dreamer stuff...I'm sure Fans will work out what it's all about EVENTUALLY, but how can the Not We possibly be expected to do so, when drunk on Christmas Day?

Still, we DID get that 'The Great Intelligence - rings a bell' line that (until I popped back to Outpost Gallifrey) I didn't realise was a hilarious reference to the Abominable Snowmen's Holy Ghanta bell thing.

But frankly...if THE DOCTOR can't be bothered to remember an enemy...WHY SHOULD WE?

The Doctor's memory is subject to the dramatic needs (whims) of writers. Ten can remember the fire than burnt Rome as well as the Macra, but Four couldn't remember repairing Xoanon himself and yet Five could remember the Merka/Merker despite it not having been in previous stories and dialogue saying there were no off-screen Silurian/Sea Devil stories.

Possibly, every time the Doctor regenerates, some parts of his memory are reinforced while others are more or less suppressed, just like various aspects of his personality are similarly affected.

Ten can remember the fire than burnt Rome as well as the Macra

Maybe he DIDN'T particularly remember burning Rome, he just went into automatic 'That wasn't me...well, maybe a little bit' mode cos he ASSUMED he must have been responsible at SOME point in his lives...

but Four couldn't remember repairing Xoanon himself

But then he HAD been suffering from post-regenerative whatever at the time.

and yet Five could remember the Merka/Merker despite it not having been in previous stories and dialogue saying there were no off-screen Silurian/Sea Devil stories.



Though...are you SURE it was made clear there were no off-screen Silurian/Sea Devil stories? Would Gary Russell the crazy continuity-freak have written his Scales of Injustice MA? Alright, so this is the guy who stooped to writing Divided Loyalties, but then no one said on-screen that Young Hartnell and all his chums - the Monk, the Master, the Rani, Drax, Asmael, et al - NEVER had Exciting Adventures With The Celestial Toymaker...

Possibly, every time the Doctor regenerates, some parts of his memory are reinforced while others are more or less suppressed, just like various aspects of his personality are similarly affected.

THAT would make sense.

I wonder if, for the Great Intelligence, this is before or after the Troughton stories it was in?

It's definitely SUPPOSED to be before, as that sandwich-box with the map of the 1960s London Underground is what gives the Intelligence the impression that it's a key strategic point, resulting in his Web of Fear invasion of it. Presumably the Intelligence then had to pop back in time somehow, as hadn't it been possessing that Abbot for CENTURIES before Abominable Snowmen?

KATE in 'New Series: Season Seven: The Name of the Doctor' thread:

That'd be the Great Intelligence's spectacularly convoluted and roundabout plan.

To be fair, this IS the guy who invaded the London Underground with Yetis. Because of a sandwich-box.

It's also missed the fact that River Song - one of the few people in the universe who knows the Doctor's name - still exists as a computer simulation that could be stolen or copied and used on Trenzalore without having to worry about the physical presence of the meddlesome Doc-tor at all.

But you've GOT to see the face of the meddlesome Doc-tor as you finally defeat him! Or else there's JUST NO POINT!

Still, I doubt it would have occurred to the GI to try to create a River Song backup file, as it's not like we've seen it doing anything like this ever before, apart from in that episode they showed eight weeks ago.

Oh.

Yeah.

"To be fair, this IS the guy who invaded the London Underground with Yetis. Because of a sandwich-box."

That's the Moff's take on it. I'm sure that the G.I.'s disgruntled and litigious creators might have a rather different take on the matter.

"But you've GOT to see the face of the meddlesome Doc-tor as you finally defeat him!"

But he got to see him many times anyway, after being badly superimposed into old clips from 'The Five Doctors'.

the G.I.'s disgruntled and litigious creators might have a rather different take on the matter.

What the hell would those Dominators maniacs know about anything?

"But you've GOT to see the face of the meddlesome Doc-tor as you finally defeat him!"

But he got to see him many times anyway, after being badly superimposed into old clips from 'The Five Doctors'.

You can never see the Doctor often enough.

The GI is obviously prepared to go to EVEN GREATER LENGTHS THAN ME for this privilege.

Though maybe, in hindsight, he SHOULD have followed my lead and just stuck a disc in the DVD player whenever he felt the urge.

So if The Abominable Snowmen is post-The Snowmen...why the hell does the GI say that the Doctor MAY not approve of what he's doing...?

And why does the GI say in Web of Fear that he's above such petty human emotions as revenge? NONE of the Doctor's numerous arch-enemies have gone to QUITE the lengths the GI has gone to to, er, get revenge.

Web of Fear:

'You defeated me in Tibet, Doctor. Now you have fallen into the trap I have so carefully prepared for you' - presumably this is pre-Name of the Doctor, or the Intelligence would be a LOT more pissed-off. And look like Richard E Grant. But it MUST be post-The Snowmen, or the Intelligence wouldn't think that the London Underground was a key strategic weakness. So why is it just waffling on about Tibet instead of ranting about its defeat in London involving the governess and rain and tears and, oh god, I can't be expected to remember The Snowmen. But surely the INTELLIGENCE would, Name of the Doctor proves it bears a grudge more than anyone except DAVROS.

'Through time and space I have observed you, Doctor. Your mind surpasses that of all other creatures' - and it certainly wouldn't be so complimentary after Name of the Doctor. Though why it didn't spot Clara while observing the Doc through time and space...(or at least that he was tricky enough to be able to cross a couple of wires...)

'The Doctor must submit willingly' - doesn't the Intelligence have the, well, intelligence to build a brain-sucking machine that can •••• your brain WITHOUT you saying 'Yum, yes please'?

'I have many other human hands at my command' - oh god. Wasn't the 'Who's the traitor...ARNOLD!' hunt not illogical enough without there being loads MORE traitors about the place??

Why give the Doctor TWENTY MINUTES to make up his mind??

There's a claim that the Intelligence didn't keep its word in Tibet. What happened there? I have a vague feeling that it may have promised it only wanted the mountain before it decided it wanted ZE VORLD!!!! or something...? If so, the Doctor n'co really should have mentioned the circumstances to anyone in favour of handing the Doctor over to the Intelligence in return for its word that they'd go free...

'I thank you Doctor for being so co-operative' - blimey, what turned the Intelligence from gullible-and-polite into raving Doctor-hating nutcase, exactly? Were there further, unseen adventures, possibly involving Colin Baker...?

Why on Earth would the Intelligence SEND the helmet to the Doctor, via Yeti - giving him plenty of time to cross its wires - instead of keeping the helmet safe and making him put it on right in front of the Intelligence?

The Yeti look a lot less silly when not carrying guns.

Why do some Yeti make beeping noises as they walk and others don't?

So why is it just waffling on about Tibet instead of ranting about its defeat in London involving the governess and rain and tears

It obviously time travelled to get from London to Tibet, considering how long it had been on that mountain, so it could easily have taken a few detours, and learnt which order the Doctor's come in.

If it does know Two comes before Ten, then it might be wary about telling Two about his own future when it's already flirting with paradox.

An alternate explanation is that it spent so long getting from London to Tibet that London has receded into dim memory - but I doubt the Great Intelligence would ever forget its first encounter with the Doctor, not even after a million years.

doesn't the Intelligence have the, well, intelligence to build a brain-sucking machine that can •••• your brain WITHOUT you saying 'Yum, yes please'?

Definitely. It did exactly that in the Bells of St John. Perhaps it just didn't have the tools. Primitive 60s technology might not have been up to the task.

what turned the Intelligence from gullible-and-polite into raving Doctor-hating nutcase

What it really gullible, or was that just its idea of charming flattery? It may have been trying to talk the Doctor into cooperating with his own destruction - always a popular tactic with evil overlords: they seem to like the irony of it.

If it does know Two comes before Ten, then it might be wary about telling Two about his own future when it's already flirting with paradox.

Are you KIDDING? The Great Intelligence UNRAVELLED THE DOCTOR'S ENTIRE TIMELINE! Even FACTION PARADOX is more careful about creating paradoxes than the Intelligence!

An alternate explanation is that it spent so long getting from London to Tibet that London has receded into dim memory

But it wouldn't make much sense for the Intelligence to look like Richard E Grant in London, pop back to a Tibetan monastery for a few hundred years, NOT look like him for a couple of adventures whilst rather admiring this 'Doctor' chap, and then resume his REG form prepared to rip apart the universe to get rid of that meddlesome Doctor.

- but I doubt the Great Intelligence would ever forget its first encounter with the Doctor, not even after a million years.

*Embarrassed cough* Actually I...don't remember my first encounter with the Doctor. I remember the hand wriggling all by itself, my GOD I remember THAT - I just don't remember the boggle-eyed loon with the Scarf who SAVED me from it.

Perhaps it just didn't have the tools. Primitive 60s technology might not have been up to the task.

But it could create robot Yeti in 1920s Tibet! Admittedly it took it a few hundred years, but for heaven's sake, in the '60s couldn't it just have done what even a SONTARAN thought of, and captured a few scientists? Say, the two who were conveniently hanging round the London Underground?

What it really gullible, or was that just its idea of charming flattery?

It must have been pretty gullible if it thought a bit of charming flattery would work on the bloke whose brains it was openly attempting to extract at the time.

It may have been trying to talk the Doctor into cooperating with his own destruction - always a popular tactic with evil overlords: they seem to like the irony of it.

Interesting. I hadn't realised, probably because most Who villains, incredibly stupid though they are for taking him on in the first place, at least realise that he's not gonna fall for THAT.

But it wouldn't make much sense for the Intelligence to look like Richard E Grant in London, pop back to a Tibetan monastery for a few hundred years, NOT look like him for a couple of adventures whilst rather admiring this 'Doctor' chap, and then resume his REG form.

It makes a bit more sense if the Intelligence didn't go to Tibet until after 'The Name of the Doctor'. Do we have any evidence it went to Tibet first?

There's also the question of how its travels interact with the Time War, and the Time Lock on it. Eleven is after the Time War; Two, before it. If the Great Intelligence had started telling Two about how it'd seen him defending Gallifrey against Dalek Timeships, the consequences could have been messy.

Are you KIDDING? The Great Intelligence UNRAVELLED THE DOCTOR'S ENTIRE TIMELINE!

But that may have been earlier in its career, when it was young and relatively foolish.

But it could create robot Yeti in 1920s Tibet!

Robot yeti might be a lot easier to make than mind-sucking gadgets. Since we can't make either yet, we don't really know.

It must have been pretty gullible

Or just supremely arrogant, but overestimating their own capabilities is a traditional villain flaw. Just look at the Master, who spent season eight repeatedly overestimating his ability to stop his current ally betraying him.

It makes a bit more sense if the Intelligence didn't go to Tibet until after 'The Name of the Doctor'. Do we have any evidence it went to Tibet first?

Its completely chilled-out reaction to the Doctor. No foaming at the mouth, more 'ooh, what an interesting person, however, let's be careful, it's JUST POSSIBLE that he MIGHT not approve of what we're doing here...'

There's also the question of how its travels interact with the Time War, and the Time Lock on it.

But we all know that Time Lock is bloody useless.

Eleven is after the Time War; Two, before it. If the Great Intelligence had started telling Two about how it'd seen him defending Gallifrey against Dalek Timeships, the consequences could have been messy.

And yet Ten told Five (in Time Crash - obviously) all about seeing the Master, which should have screwed up quite a lot of years of Nine n'Ten going round saying 'Waaghhh, last of the Time Lords'...but didn't. Frankly the Doc's MEMORY is so bad (he didn't even remember THE GREAT INTELLIGENCE in The Snowmen, let alone anthing it SAID!) that it wouldn't have been a big deal.

Are you KIDDING? The Great Intelligence UNRAVELLED THE DOCTOR'S ENTIRE TIMELINE!

But that may have been earlier in its career, when it was young and relatively foolish.

But it did so because the Doctor REPEATEDLY thwarted its dastardly plans. So it would be silly to take said thwarting in Abominable Snowmen and Web of Fear out of the equation.

Robot yeti might be a lot easier to make than mind-sucking gadgets. Since we can't make either yet, we don't really know.

Oh. I honestly thought you or Francois could come up with an informed guess about whether robot Yeti or brain-sucking machines would have been easier to whip up in one's spare time.

overestimating their own capabilities is a traditional villain flaw

Though the Intelligence is far from a traditional villain. Well, it is NOW, what with being Richard E Grant and torturing Companions and being obsessed with destroying the Doctor even if this destroys the universe, but in the Good Old Days it took bloody CENTURIES just to take over half a Tibetan mountain. That laid-back attitude and extremely conservative estimate of one's own abilities is delightfully unusual (even if it DID go into full world-conquering mode the moment the Doctor arrived, for no readily apparent reason).

Its completely chilled-out reaction to the Doctor.

That can be explained either way. It could have been so chilled-out in Tibet because it hadn't met the Doctor before, or because it had had centuries to get over its youthful impatience (and maybe accidentally pick up some personality traits from the monks.)

But we all know that Time Lock is bloody useless.

Not completely useless; it's kept most of the horrors of the Time War safely imprisoned for the Doctor's last three regenerations.

but didn't. Frankly the Doc's MEMORY is so bad

But what happens if the Time Lords interrogate the Doctor, in the period when he was working for them (as seen in The Two Doctors)?

Also, going through the Time Lock drove Dalek Caan mad. It could explain the Intelligence's personality change too, if Tibet is after Name of the Doctor.

But it did so because the Doctor REPEATEDLY thwarted its dastardly plans.

But there are big chunks of the Doctor's life the BBC never bothered to film - Six after his trial, Seven after Survival, and virtually all of Eight's life. The thwarting could have been in one of those periods.

come up with an informed guess about whether robot Yeti or brain-sucking machines would have been easier to whip up in one's spare time.

Robots are a lot easier to build, using known science. We've got robots now; they're just a lot clumsier than the yet, and most of them are blind. However, since we've got no idea how a vrain-sucking machine would work, I can't completely rule out the possibility there's an easy way to build one, using a branch of technology humans have overlooked.

if it DID go into full world-conquering mode the moment the Doctor arrived, for no readily apparent reason

Perhaps it was waiting for a decent opponent, if it sees world-conquest as a fun game - a bit like the way the Master sometimes went looking for the Doctor, or lured him in -though that would require it to have seen the Doctor before Tibet.

But what happens if the Time Lords interrogate the Doctor, in the period when he was working for them (as seen in The Two Doctors)?

INTERROGATE the Doctor? That would mean admitting HE knew stuff that THEY didn't. They'd never stoop to interrogate him, at least not unless he was found standing over the body of their President, smoking staser in hand...

But there are big chunks of the Doctor's life the BBC never bothered to film - Six after his trial, Seven after Survival, and virtually all of Eight's life. The thwarting could have been in one of those periods.

In which case, wouldn't Matt have REMEMBERED the Great Intelligence? It's one thing for a two-time monster you met seven hundred years and nine regenerations ago to slip your mind, it's quite another to forget more recent multiple-regeneration encounters.

INTERROGATE the Doctor? That would mean admitting HE knew stuff that THEY didn't.

They'd be no more ashamed of not knowing unimportant stuff than you'd be ashamed of not knowing how many teeth a dog has - and nothing that happened off Gallifrey could possibly be important, in their opinion.

As for why they'd ask about unimportant stuff, they might want to know just how much interfering the Doctor had done. It'd help when sentencing him.

In which case, wouldn't Matt have REMEMBERED the Great Intelligence?

Not if Eight had amnesia, as the books claim. He got most of his memory back in the end, but not necessarily all of it.

they might want to know just how much interfering the Doctor had done. It'd help when sentencing him.

They didn't seem overly concerned at his trial...

In which case, wouldn't Matt have REMEMBERED the Great Intelligence?

Not if Eight had amnesia, as the books claim. He got most of his memory back in the end, but not necessarily all of it.

Look, even in the Accursed Days when the books *shudders* WERE Doctor Who, I never believed that ANYONE could get amnesia QUITE so often...

They didn't seem overly concerned at his trial...

They probably thought the Doctor knew what he'd done, so there was no point telling him the full list of his 'crimes'. That'd just be something for the judge to read, in private.

They might also feed the full record into the Matrix, simply as part of standard procedure. If the ancient traditions say the Matrix gets a record of all Time Lord activities off Gallifrey, to help it make accurate predictions, the Time Lords will solemnly give it that record, even though they no longer think it matters.

However, these are details. My basic objection is that having things that happened after the Time War affect things that happened before feels wrong - not necessarily impossible, but something that should only happen under exceptional circumstances.

Look, even in the Accursed Days when the books *shudders* WERE Doctor Who, I never believed that ANYONE could get amnesia QUITE so often...

Human Nature shows they weren't entirely false, and it only takes one bout of amnesia to explain forgetting the Great Intelligence.

Alternately, if the Time Lords did realise Two had encountered something from his personal future, they might have wiped it from his memory when they exiled him to Earth. With typical competence, they could have left a few fragmentary memories of yeti behind, but no conscious recollection of the being behind them.

They probably thought the Doctor knew what he'd done, so there was no point telling him the full list of his 'crimes'. That'd just be something for the judge to read, in private.

That didn't stop 'em inflicting fourteen episodes, FOURTEEN EPISODES of waffling about Old Sixie's so-called crimes on him and, more importantly, us.

However, these are details. My basic objection is that having things that happened after the Time War affect things that happened before feels wrong

Fair enough. There IS this incredible barrier. Wherever and whenever the New Who Doctors go, they NEVER bump into a past Time Lord. Even though gods know there were enough renegades scattered through time and space...

Alternately, if the Time Lords did realise Two had encountered something from his personal future, they might have wiped it from his memory when they exiled him to Earth. With typical competence, they could have left a few fragmentary memories of yeti behind, but no conscious recollection of the being behind them.

That's a point. The 'rings a bell' comment does suggest the Doc had ghanta memories floating around somewhere in his subconscious.

inflicting fourteen episodes, FOURTEEN EPISODES of waffling about Old Sixie's so-called crimes on him and, more importantly, us.

But that court was run by the Valeyard, who was thoroughly evil - explanation enough.

Actually that court was run by the Inquisitor, who was apparently such a wonderful person that the Doctor wanted to vote for her for President. (Actually the Gallifrey audios then make her out to be thoroughly evil, but that's beside the point.)

"Actually that court was run by the Inquisitor, who was apparently such a wonderful person that the Doctor wanted to vote for her for President."

In Parts Seven and Eight it becomes very clear that the whole thing is a stitch-up and the Inquisitor is in on it. Unfortunately the rest of the trial story was written by people who hadn't realised that.

The Snowmen:

What kind of monster goes to the trouble of producing business cards and putting its initials on a coach, anyway?

Why bother to warn Captain Latimer that 'what's growing in the pond' is 'ours'?

Why tell JENNY instead of Vastra that Conan Doyle is basing his stories on her exploits?

'The drowned woman and the dreaming child will give us form at last. Tomorrow the snow will fall and so shall mankind' - what kind of cretinous villain depends on drowned women and dreaming children anyway?

'You can't conquer the world using snowmen. Snowmen are rubbish in July.' - that too.

'Release her to us. You have five minutes' - WHY give THE DOCTOR five minutes, you MORON?

'Snow doesn't talk, does it, it's just a mirror, it just reflects back everything we think and feel and fear...You poured your darkest dreams into a snowman and look, look what it became... a parasite, feeding on the loneliness of a child and the sickness of an old man. Carnivorous snow meets Victorian values and something terrible is born...' - Definitely the Great Intelligence's birth, then. So much for Craig Hinton's MA claims that it was Yog-Sothoth, a being from the pre-Big Bang universe.

Though this doesn't explain what it was doing hanging around in Tibet for centuries BEFORE this, and not even recognising the Doctor as an enemy...

'Now the dream outlives the dreamer and can never die. Once I was the puppet. Now I pull the strings. I tried for so long to take on human form. By erasing Simeon you made space for me. I fill him now.' - Couldn't the Great Intelligence manage to possess Simeon (or some other passing human) without the Doctor's help? What kind of wimp IS it?

'The only force on Earth that could drown the snow - a whole family crying on Christmas Eve' - any self-respecting villain should have been able to laugh (or vomit) THAT off.

'The Great Intelligence...rings a bell' - in 650-odd years, you'd forget a LOT of things. The thing I find UTTERLY UNFORGIVABLE is that in forgetting his previous encounters with the Great Intelligence, the Doctor also forgets his first encounter with a certain Colonel Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart...

'I have failed you, Great Intelligence.' 'I have feasted on many minds, I have grown' - is it just me or has NO monster/villain EVER responded to defeat with the laid-back attitude of the Great Intelligence in Bells of Saint John?

The only one I can think of is the Master's 'Oh well, there's always tomorrow' at the end of the Space War NOVELISATION, and that differs quite considerably from the shoot-out that ACTUALLY ends Frontier in Space.

I mean...has the GI just been smoking a spliff or something?

And...WHAT - THE - •••• happened between THIS and the GI's rabid foaming destroy-the-universe determination to avenge such humiliations in Name of the Doctor?

OK, what happens if Mr G. Intelligence's timeline is something like:

1. The Snowmen ('Carnivorous snow meets Victorian values and something terrible is born')

2. Bells of Saint John

3. Unknown story where the Doctor defeats the G.I. in a REALLY REALLY annoying way so he goes from 'Hey, no sweat' to 'DESTROY THE DOCTOR AT THE COST OF MY OWN LIFE AND THE UNIVERSE'

4. Name of the Doctor

5. Abominable Snowmen. Yes, we're told that jumping into the Doctor's timestream will kill you/burn you up/the real you will die, etc etc, but it didn't do CLARA any harm...So what if ONE of the multitude of confetti-ed Simeons survives? Stripped of its face and form and almost all its memories except the London Underground being a strategic weakness...?

6. Web of Fear

OK, what happens if Mr G. Intelligence's timeline is something like ...

Certainly possible. It fits with everything we've seen, and gives the G.I a coherent history.

However, I'm pretty sure the G.I will be back, in the books if not on-screen. I suspect it'll probably manage to say something that contradicts every theory about its timeline ever seriously suggested.

However, I'm pretty sure the G.I will be back, in the books if not on-screen.

*Glowers at the dearth of Twelfth Doctor Novels*

Don't hold your breath, Sunshine.

The Great Intelligence IS the Doctor. After it entered his timelime, it splintered and got assimilated into every moment of his life. That's why the Doctor is so smart and always knows how to get himself out of trouble. Ultimate timey wimey paradoxe.

When one starts speculating wildly, one might as well go all the way.

I wasn't speculating wildly! I was just trying to make sense of Mr G. Intelligence's five televisual adventures, which happened to involve positing one unseen adventure...

YOU have a go!

No no no. I was refering to MY wild speculation about the GI being the Doctor.

YOUR speculation actually made a lot of sense.

About Time does not take kindly to Web's new-look Yeti: 'Their control spheres cease to be supernatural containers of chi and become electronic gizmos that the Doctor can rebuild with parts from a hardware shop. Even their creepy web-fungus is fired out of a zap-gun. For all the difference it would have made, this story might just as well have been about the Cybermen. Guess what: it will be (see 6.3, "The Invasion")' - I'd say they’re being unduly cynical but I'm still reeling from Cyber-music being used for the Yeti battle scenes...

'The Yeti transforms itself into the new version when contact is restored with the Great Intelligence via a control sphere. [This indicates that the Intelligence can psychically re-shape things. This might explain where it gets its equipment from, but not how it's managed to build a whole army of Yeti in what we assume to be just a few months, when the same kind of operation took two-hundred years in Tibet. Unless the deactivated Yeti from Tibet all get on a plane and come to London...' - look, there are NO LIMITS to what you can achieve when you ditch the woolly Buddhist chanting and start developing a really strong work ethic.

Of course, why 1970s Britain should give the Great Intelligence a work ethic is anyone's guess...

SIMEON: I think winter is coming. Such a winter as this world has never known. The last winter of humankind. Do you know why I'm telling you all this?
VASTRA: I am intrigued.
SIMEON: Because there's not a single thing you can do to stop it. - Er...she could just KILL HIM. THAT would stop the Intelligence dead in its tracks, surely, a lot better than the Doctor's disastrous wipe-his-mind plans.

Does Dr Simeon really not know what FIVE MINUTES is?

Guess not.

I wouldn't mind if it had happened AFTER he became a disembodied timeless spirit but he's still a Victorian gentleman at that point, I'm sure they valued punctuality...

Possible timeline?



*Circa 1630, the Doctor (Patrick Troughton) visits the Det-Sen Monastery. He takes the Ghanta bell for safe keeping.
Shortly afterwards, Padmasambhava encounters a being on the astral plane. It promises him long life in exchange for his assistance in experiments to give it physical form. The being is largely memetic, so since Padmasambhava conceives of it in terms of Buddhist philosophy, it remains non-contingent, little more than an idea. At this stage, it is not particularly malevolent.


*1842: the astral being, not yet calling itself the Great Intelligence, has been attempting to become physical via Padmasambhava's meditative techniques for over 200 years, with no appreciable results. Frustrated or bored, the being reaches out to a new host: a child playing in the snow in England. This host, full of anger and resentment, enables the memetic being to be much more hostile and acquisitive than it was when it mirrored the serene Padmasambhava. The being puts Padmasambhava "on hold" and decides to concentrate on Walter Simeon for a while.


*1892: Simeon has christened the being "the Great Intelligence", and has worked to help it manifest fully via a body of ice, growing in Captain Latimer's frozen pond. The Doctor (Matt Smith) foils its plans, with the help of an emotional deluge at the moment of Clara's death. The G.I.'s London plans are in ruins, but it remembers the Doctor's passing remark about the Underground. It returns to its previous foothold in Tibet, but begins to alter its plans.


*1892-1930: Using techniques it developed during its association with Simeon, the G.I. instructs Padmasambhava to construct robotic Yeti. These are similar in function to Simeon's snowmen, but the G.I. recognizes that the snowmen's memetic aspect was a weakness, so its new "snowmen" are controlled more directly, via control spheres.


*1935: The Doctor (Patrick Troughton) returns the Ghanta to Det-Sen, and discovers that the G.I. has been possessing Padmasambhava and building robotic Yeti. He defeats the Intelligence once again, and it returns to London.


*1967-1975, depending on your opinion on UNIT dating: Remembering the Doctor's earlier remark, the G.I. attempts to take over London via the Underground. The Doctor (Patrick Troughton) defeats it again and expels it into space.

I did a better suggested timeline on July 11, 2014 .

TARDIS Eruditorum:

'Apparently the Great Intelligence is casually animating Yeti on Gallifrey for no reason other than the desire to bring back some classic Second Doctor monster' - this actually never OCCURRED to me - what with said Yeti's appearance just feeling so...right. Look, robots inevitably take on a life of their own and overthrow their creators and suchlike, maybe THIS Yeti did so? (Or maybe that moron Borusa just kidnapped a REAL Yeti...?)

the Intelligence can psychically re-shape things. This might explain where it gets its equipment from, but not how it's managed to build a whole army of Yeti in what we assume to be just a few months, when the same kind of operation took two-hundred years in Tibet. Unless the deactivated Yeti from Tibet all get on a plane and come to London...' - look, there are NO LIMITS to what you can achieve when you ditch the woolly Buddhist chanting and start developing a really strong work ethic.

Of course, why 1970s Britain should give the Great Intelligence a work ethic is anyone's guess...

It's 1969 according to the Lethbridge-Stewart novels. Which also have a Yeti-factory so sadly the plane thing is out...

OK, what happens if Mr G. Intelligence's timeline is something like:

1. The Snowmen ('Carnivorous snow meets Victorian values and something terrible is born')

2. Bells of Saint John

3. Unknown story where the Doctor defeats the G.I. in a REALLY REALLY annoying way so he goes from 'Hey, no sweat' to 'DESTROY THE DOCTOR AT THE COST OF MY OWN LIFE AND THE UNIVERSE'

I guess Rebellion on Treasure Island might qualify...

Christmas on a Rational Planet:

The Carnival Queen: 'For there was Time before this; and there was Being before this; and there was Space before this. And there were Things Damned in that place, and there were Things Remarkable. The Watchmakers, being rational monsters...think it means that there was another universe before this one, and that it was destroyed in the Big Bang. As the Doctor, and that's what he'll tell you' - no it isn't! He was totally freaked out by the idea in The Satan Pit! - 'Naturellement, it isn't true' - it is, though, isn't it? Didn't the NAs/MAs claim that some monsters like the Great Intelligence and Nestene Consciousness came through from the previous universe? And there's also SJA: Secrets of the Stars...

The 'handful of baby godlings and "great intelligences" who escaped from this universe before the Watchmakers sucked all of the glamour and the strangeness from its bones' were 'such weak, unimaginative creatures. Too ready to obey the Watcmakers' order. Too ready to give themselves up to Reason' - I think she's underestimating the Great Intelligence, it never seems to act in a particularly Reasonable manner...not in Old Who, New Who, the novels OR the audios..