I, Davros (Innocence, Purity, Corruption, Guilt):

Well. It may not hang together 100%, but it's unusually successful, for Big Finishes.

The 'I am your father!' stuff is a little unnecessary.

Survive a firing squad and they give you a second chance? That's a bit sentimental, for a race that's been at war for a millennia (or whatever).

Davros's mum is a Personal Assistant AND a Congress member?

(Well, she's fun at least. 'I'm in pieces. Not as many as my husband...')

Brilliant and influential-familied Davros hasn't made it to the Scientific Corps by the age of 30? Could the Kaleds afford to ignore their greatest asset like this?

The Kaled automatic defences are set to recognise Thal UNIFORMS? That's a bit stupid of 'em.

'She loves me' says Davros, of his sister. Which part of her telling him 'You're a dangerous psychopath' did he somehow not grasp? It's not as if he was suffering from some sort of bizarre Robert-style blindness towards his family - he suspected his fanatically-adoring MOTHER of betraying him.

Yarvel's a young, healthy soldier. Yet her elderly mother still manages to murder her with her bare hands?

Shan wants peace not Daleks? Doesn't that completely contradict the 'Davros' audio? Plus the sexual-jealousy motivation behind Davros murdering her isn't nearly as clear here.

No Kaled has died of old age for TEN GENERATIONS? Things didn't sound quite THAT bad a generation ago when these audios started.

'Meet you in thirty rels' - New Who seems to imply a 'rel' is a second rather than a minute.

There are seven Thal females for every Thal male? Nice attempt to justify the imbalance we saw in The Daleks, but in THAT case wouldn't that ghastly sexist Thal woman have been saying 'We need more WOMEN' rather than 'We need more MEN'? And would evolution EVER throw up such an imbalance?

And nice mentions of the extinct Daals and suchlike. They're really TRYING. 'Dalek' as a Daal word for gods from an obscure prophecy about men becoming gods certainly makes more sense than the anagram thing...

Davros uses his mum's name as a password? What a cretin.

NYDER! Darling Nyder!

Could the Kaleds afford to ignore their greatest asset like this?

If they know he's a dangerous psychopath, yes.

Which part of her telling him 'You're a dangerous psychopath' did he somehow not grasp?

The bit where it's not a compliment? Besides love isn't incompatible with treachery. Sane people don't expect their families to betray them, of course, sane people expect only unconditional love from their kith and kin, but Davros is not remotely sane. He's quite capable of expecting his mother to kill the person she loves the most in all Skaro.

Shan wants peace not Daleks? Doesn't that completely contradict the 'Davros' audio?

Wasn't that just Davros reminiscing? Presumably, spending all that time near-dead and then frozen didn't do much for his memory.

'Meet you in thirty rels' - New Who seems to imply a 'rel' is a second rather than a minute.

The two words sound the same to English-speaking ears, but not to Kaleds.

There are seven Thal females for every Thal male? ... would evolution EVER throw up such an imbalance?

Yes, though it'd fit what we saw on screen better if there were seven males for every female.

Sex doesn't have to be determined by the chromosomes. It can be environmental, or the parent's choice, and it can change over a lifespan. There are fish that start out male, and change to female when they get big enough, which can produce any sex ratio you like. In some reptiles, sex is controlled by the temperature the egg is incubated at. This leads to some alligators having 5 females for every males. Thals probably don't lay eggs, but it would be equally feasible for maternal hormones to control the child's gender.

And then there's the bee's system. Unfertilised eggs grow up male; fertilised eggs become female. That would easily let the Thals have any sex ratio they wanted.

Could the Kaleds afford to ignore their greatest asset like this?

If they know he's a dangerous psychopath, yes.

I don't think they DO, yet. Other than his sister, obviously.

Doesn't that completely contradict the 'Davros' audio?

Wasn't that just Davros reminiscing? Presumably, spending all that time near-dead and then frozen didn't do much for his memory.

Ah, but THIS is just Davros reminiscing too. The Daleks seem to be putting him on one of their 'trial' things, so he's hitting them with his life-story for some never-adequated-explained reason.

'Meet you in thirty rels' - New Who seems to imply a 'rel' is a second rather than a minute.

The two words sound the same to English-speaking ears, but not to Kaleds.

Isn't the TARDIS...um, well, SOME magical and deeply considerate force...translating all this for us ANYWAY? They might be a bit more CAREFUL.

Plus this is reminding me of some European Union space probe that failed because some scientists were working in feet and some in metres. No wonder Kaleds haven't won the war if the word for 'seconds' and 'minutes' is so similar SOME people are bound to launch their 'surprise' attack on Thal lines in X seconds rather than X minutes.

Or, of course, the word could have evolved over the millennia, the way everything ELSE about the history of this war did.

There are seven Thal females for every Thal male? ... would evolution EVER throw up such an imbalance?

Yes, though it'd fit what we saw on screen better if there were seven males for every female.

Sorry, of course THAT'S what it said and I'm just too tired to think straight.

Sex doesn't have to be determined by the chromosomes. It can be environmental, or the parent's choice, and it can change over a lifespan.

I THINK Davros was talking about fundamental, evolutionary differences between Thals and Kaleds so it shouldn't be environmental or parent's choice.

Surely so many fewer females to breed the next generation of warriors should have hit the Thals' chances of victory a LOT harder, over the centuries?

In some reptiles, sex is controlled by the temperature the egg is incubated at. This leads to some alligators having 5 females for every males. Thals probably don't lay eggs, but it would be equally feasible for maternal hormones to control the child's gender.

That's very interesting. I suppose a war situation might have made women more likely to produce sons, though in a LONG-TERM war situation that's counter-productive, not to mention that Thal women made just as good (well, just as not-very-good) soldiers as the men (except Bettan, who was of course infinitely superior to any Thal MAN we've had the misfortune to encounter).

And then there's the bee's system. Unfertilised eggs grow up male; fertilised eggs become female. That would easily let the Thals have any sex ratio they wanted.

Again, very interesting. Though given that Thal men seem very eager to breed (with Thal women OR humans, they're not that fussed) there isn't THAT much chance of eggs being unfertilised...

Ah, but THIS is just Davros reminiscing too.

Clearly, Davros will tell whatever story he thinks makes him sound good at the time.

I THINK Davros was talking about fundamental, evolutionary differences between Thals and Kaleds so it shouldn't be environmental or parent's choice.

Those mechanisms can be the result of evolution.

Surely so many fewer females to breed the next generation of warriors should have hit the Thals' chances of victory a LOT harder, over the centuries?

They could compensate by having eight children every pregnancy, while the Kaleds only had one.

given that Thal men seem very eager to breed (with Thal women OR humans, they're not that fussed) there isn't THAT much chance of eggs being unfertilised...

If it's like bees, the mother can store the semen inside her indefinitely, only using it when her hormones feel it's time for a daughter. Alternately, female Thals might have eight compartments in their womb, each holding a single egg, with all the semen being steered to just one of the eight eggs. The result: a single girl with seven doting brothers to protect her, every single birth.

Clearly, Davros will tell whatever story he thinks makes him sound good at the time.

I'm not sure even DAVROS could think that most of this makes him look GOOD...

Come to think of it, as I, Davros WAS supposed to be all in flashback, why were there all those scenes that Davros didn't witness?

They could compensate by having eight children every pregnancy, while the Kaleds only had one.

Wouldn't Thal women be INCREDIBLY valuable if that was the case? There should be a lot more of The Daleks' breaking-eons-of-pacifism-to-protect-the-female and a lot less of Bettan and Rebec-style heroics.

If it's like bees, the mother can store the semen inside her indefinitely, only using it when her hormones feel it's time for a daughter. Alternately, female Thals might have eight compartments in their womb, each holding a single egg, with all the semen being steered to just one of the eight eggs. The result: a single girl with seven doting brothers to protect her, every single birth.

Eek. Um, I mean thanks, one learns a LOT more from being a Who Fan than from all those years of studying science.

Bwahaha! The Davros Mission is mine, all mine!

How I despaired of this day ever coming. Big Finish sold it ONLY in a set with every other Davros audio and DVD, none of which I was prepared to buy ALL OVER AGAIN.

But for the fifteenth anniversary sale the download is available for a quid (along with quite a lot of other stuff).

Which would be great if only my laptop could cope with downloads. (My computer at work can just about manage to play 'em at a whisper. Who was it that screamed 'WHY AM I SURROUNDED BY INCOMPETENTS!'? Captain Rorvik?)

The Davros Mission:

Has 'cheap filler' written all over it. Though it's a pity it didn't go for the even cheaper option of cutting out the drug-addicted working-class Dalek-enslaved, would-be-Davros-killing comedy mollusc duo. Cos they didn't really do much for me.

Daleks are TERRIBLE at following orders. Which bit of 'Conversation with the prisoner is forbidden' have they not quite grasped?

Oh great, now THE SLAVES are terrible at obeying orders. When the Daleks tell them to shut up, why the hell don't they JUST SHUT UP? Frankly had the Daleks exterminated them I'd've been in full sympathy with the metal meanies.

'He is delusional' - not really. He's right about being their creator, he's right about the Doctor being on Necros (you'd think they'd at least CHECK) and, OK, so he's rather optimistic about the outcome of his trial but history proves him right.

'Surely my creations are allowed to answer innocent questions' - which bit of 'Don't talk to the prisoner' has Davros, and indeed the Daleks, failed to grasp?

'Who are you...creatures?' - Lareen doesn't think to be a bit NICER to the slaves who've discovered her? Who hold her life in their hands (or whatever molluscs have instead of hands)?

Why do the slaves agree to shut up and get on with it, and then ramble on for ten more minutes?

'I can't help thinking they could have anticipated a locked door' says Lareen, of her mission to infiltrate Davros's prison-ship. Er...quite.

How come she accurately deduces that 'We've already risked our lives' doesn't refer to the slaves, er, risking their lives by escorting her to Davros's cell instead of reporting her to the Daleks?

'Spare me your mediocre attempts at psycho-analysis' - I really shouldn't be siding with Davros this blatantly. Davros for Emperor!

So, um, the stealth-suit stops Davros and the Daleks from seeing her (even though he's not a Dalek) except when Davros has flashes of humanity, and it allows Davros to hear her but not the Daleks HOW exactly?

'So it has come to this for the peace-loving Thals' - why would Davros think of Thals as peace-loving? He's just fought a thousand-year war with the militaristic gits, and I bet HE didn't have to sit through several episodes of Ian threatening to nick their historical records and/or women to stop 'em being such dreary pacifists.

'What have you got to lose' - er...your lives? Mollusc-workmen wouldn't last long if Davros was found murdered in his cell. You know, the cell they drilled a hole into.

How could Lareen possibly be stupid enough to give Davros the thousands-of-times-stronger Movellan virus? When she could just as easily have released it herself after invisibly arriving on Skaro? And doesn't she realise that if - as she so naively (and by 'naively' I mean CRIMINALLY INSANELY STUPIDLY) expects - Davros releases the virus, he'll die too and all her psychoanalysis-to-make-him-a-lovely-person will be for nothing?

I want my quid back.

V117 in New Series: Season Nine: The Magician's Apprentice:

12, "Who made Davros?".

Please don't go there Moffat, please. The IDavros series is one of the few half decent Big Finish audios.

It is indeed, but should ANY audio series, even an unexpectedly half-decent one, get in the way of telling a story on TV? We've had ten years to come to terms with the novels and audios being simultaneously ignored, contradicted AND plundered.

It is indeed, but should ANY audio series, even an unexpectedly half-decent one, get in the way of telling a story on TV? We've had ten years to come to terms with the novels and audios being simultaneously ignored, contradicted AND plundered.

If the .T.V. series story is a good one but in this case it wasn't. Big Finish essentially lucked out that they managed a half decent prequel/origin story.

The best we can hope for is 12 starting Davros on his, "survival" mindset by blasting a few of the hand mines largely as a deterant with the dalek gun, (thus kickstarting Davros's survival through firepower and suppression mindset) with the suppressed memory triggered by seeing 12's face on a screen. The sonic screwdriver will be a dozy to explain away though.

If the .T.V. series story is a good one but in this case it wasn't.

Oh. Yeah. Fair point.

The best we can hope for is 12 starting Davros on his, "survival" mindset by blasting a few of the hand mines largely as a deterant with the dalek gun, (thus kickstarting Davros's survival through firepower and suppression mindset) with the suppressed memory triggered by seeing 12's face on a screen. The sonic screwdriver will be a dozy to explain away though.

WON'T it just. Even if later-Davros just stuffed it down the back of his chair and forgot about it, there's NO WAY little-Davros (or most kids) could have kept that alien artefact without taking it apart to see how it worked.

I'm voting for a compete change of history. Eleven wasn't afraid to totally rewrite Kazran's youth, and indeed Amy's most unhappy childhood memory (see DVD Extras) and their memories changed when the rewriting happened and not before. The sonic screwdriver probably materialised the other day along with Davros 'remembering' that git who'd abandoned him. (Thus making the Doctor NOT responsible for the not-entirely-satisfactory way the kid turned out.)

I: Innocence:

'Why do you need me?' Davros asks his Daleks. An unusual question from the guy who maintains his Daleks ALWAYS need him, no matter how many times they stick him in the basement or exterminate him.

'Dalek conquests are failing. Wars are being lost. We need direction' responds a Dalek. I'm with Davros in his 'Pathetic!' reaction. How the hell are they managing to lose wars? Since when would they ADMIT such a thing? And what use do they think the wheelchaired git is going to be, exactly?

There's obviously a spy in the Kaled midst because 'We send in troops, they send in the exact same number'? If the Thals are so well-informed wouldn't the sensible thing to do be to send in LOTS MORE troops?

Why does Yarvell go after Davros after ranting for ages that she's not going after Davros, she's not a servant, he'll come back when he's hungry?

So Magrantine offers to tutor Davros for free, Calcula says she doesn't want to be in his debt - fair enough. But why exactly does she pay him sums of money so extortionate that she spends the rest of the audio grumbling about them?

Love Calcula's reaction to hearing that her husband's subordinate refused his request to shoot him through the head to give him an 'honourable' death on the battlefield rather than retirement: 'Refused? You have rights! It's outrageous that he didn't kill you!'

Why the hell does Tashek choose NOW - the moment her dying brother comes home to spend his last few weeks with his family - to inform him that his sixteen-year-old son isn't his?

And why does Calcula choose NOW to blow them both up? She's extraordinarily smart if she can gauge exactly when her sister-in-law will snap, after all these years of keeping her gob shut...(Assuming it WAS her, of course. Bit of an overreaction to blow up her own house instead of, say, just putting a pillow over her terminally-ill husband's face.)

And if Nasgard was contaminated enough to be sterile seventeen years ago, would he really have waited so long to develop his terminal cough?

Why is Calcula suddenly going to be loads poorer with her husband dead? His army pay can't have been THAT great and surely there'll be a pension? Surely she and her kids would inherit a good chunk of his family money (especially with his sister dead as well)?

How can Quested possibly offer a toast to the end of the war? Is he INSANE? There's no peace treaty OR superweapon on the agenda.

So Brogan's found guilty of Nasgard's murder on Calcula's evidence - the 'evidence' that even her lover, in the middle of proposing to her, points out is just a tissue of wild accusations - and Nasgard and Calcula's daughter is told that daddy's murderer has been found and she's gonna be part of his firing squad - and doesn't bother to ask his name?

What on Earth makes Davros assume the people in the radiation lab are volunteers?

II: Purity:

Ah, how sweet. It was love at first sight for Young Davros. First sight of a Varga plant, that is.

Yarvell only gets her share of the family trust fund when her BROTHER marries?

Yarvell and her peace activist chums believe that the Thals want peace to the extent that when Davros goes on a secret mission to destroy THE THALS' NEW SECRET WEAPON THAT WILL WIN THEM THE WAR THAT THEY FORGOT TO MENTION TO THEIR KALED PEACE ACTIVIST CHUMS, they BETRAY him?

Blimey, now even I want to stick the moronic traitors up against the nearest wall...

It doesn't occur to anyone but super-genius Davros that a Thal uniform might actually be useful when infiltrating Thal territory?

The Thals know the Kaleds will be attacking the factory into which they've poured half their city's economic output, but they still leave it empty and automated instead of, y'know, GUARDING IT PROPERLY?

Davros (of all people!) orders warning shots fired at the attacking cannibals even though the power-packs on his men's guns is low so surely shooting to kill would make a lot more sense?

'How many days is it since we last ate? Or drank?' - well, not THAT many days if you're still ALIVE, Sunshine.

So Davros accidentally lets slip his top-secret mission (alright, pretty unlikely but then the guy has always loved the sound of his own voice) to the mother who adores him and the sister who loathes him...and when someone betrays them he assumes it's his MOTHER?

So what exactly is the Supremo playing at? Not letting the Great White Hope of the Kaled race go anywhere near the Scientific Elite until he's been on a suicide mission??

The medical team aren't at all suspicious about Yarvell's 'drowning accident'? And yet Davros STILL wants to announce that his sister was murdered by peace activists (whilst she was, er, alone in the house with her mother).

Didn't the Sixth Doctor Davros audio start with its eponymous hero deciding whether or not to top himself after his misfortunate accident? Surely his reaction to his wounded pal asking to be shot proves he'd NEVER contemplate such an action?

'How many days is it since we last ate? Or drank?' - well, not THAT many days if you're still ALIVE, Sunshine.

Maybe the inhabitants of Skaro are more resistant to thirst than humans.

That's a point. Still, didn't that examination of Harry in Genesis say that he was practically identical to a Kaled? No mention of not having an extra stomach in which to store water or something.

Well, such an examination would not easily reveal something like that. For instance, gerbils do not need to drink at all, they get all the water they need from metabolizing the food they eat, a very useful talent in their native desert environment. It's not something you could find out from a simple physical examination. If I'm not mistaken, most depictions of Skaro show it to be quite harsh and arid, so its inhabitants may be adapted to this sort of environment. Humans are also quite wasteful of water, we use it to cool ourselves through perspiration for instance. If Kaleds and Thals used a different way to control their body temperature, they could last a lot longer than we do on the same amount of water. That's also something a physical examination would not reveal, especially if you're not looking for it.

It's not something you could find out from a simple physical examination.

Well, it wasn't a simple physical examination, I seem to remember the Doctor and Harry being put through some very high-tech scanning machinery. It was great at picking out all the Doctor's oddities (in fact, it seemed to think he was a hell of a lot more physically different from us than he's ever let on) but said that Harry was basically the same as a Kaled.

Humans are also quite wasteful of water, we use it to cool ourselves through perspiration for instance. If Kaleds and Thals used a different way to control their body temperature, they could last a lot longer than we do on the same amount of water.

Brilliant!

Who's volunteering to rewatch The Daleks, Planet of the Daleks, and Genesis of the Daleks to see if they can spot anyone sweating? Oh, and maybe they'd better read War of the Daleks too, just to be on the safe side...

Still, didn't that examination of Harry in Genesis say that he was practically identical to a Kaled?

Ah, well, Harry here is only qualified to drink like a gerbil...

Harry here is only qualified to drink like a gerbil...

Our heroic inventor of Imbecile's Gas bears NO resemblance to a gerbil, thank you!

Ooh look, I thought The Dalek Factor novella might come up with a bit of Skarosian sweat - what with its Thal heroes prone to practically wetting themselves whenever encountering a metal meanie - and here we go: 'Wisps of blonde hair have slipped down from beneath her black helmet; they drip with perspiration.'

III: Corruption:

Come to think of it, where are the Hand-Mines? And why is Calcula letting her precious little boy wander round battlefields anyway? And why has Davros never mentioned being haunted by some murderous nutcase with a weird accent and some REALLY scary eyebrows?

If you expect an 80% casualty rate, would you really parachute in only five people? They could ALL so easily have died.

Hang on, Thals and Kaleds are completely different, descended from different animals, they only look the same? And this has only just been spotted? Despite Thals having that weird 7-1 sex ratio in favour of males that might have been a subtle clue? Despite - surely! - Davros not being the first Kaled to dissect the enemy?

And Shan implies Kaleds are descended from clams? The attempts to explain away THAT incident in Genesis is getting increasingly desperate.

'People would complain' Calcula is told, and responds 'Oh nonsense, people complain at the slightest provocation these days' – so NOT nonsense, then.

Whatever Davros did to their babies with his injection, would all four mothers REALLY die of shock whilst giving birth?

IV: Guilt:

The Daleks tell Davros that he was obsolete and should have been exterminated after his accident - and BEFORE he created THEM?

Wouldn't sending people on suicide missions without telling them it's a suicide mission be counter-productive - in the long run? Simper and safer to instil a kamikaze mentality, surely?

So there's an explosion in the Kaled dome and the Supremo assumes that it's a Kaled weapons malfunction rather than a Thal attack?

'Is this him' asks Colonel Murash. OF DAVROS.

Frankly I'd be bitterly criticising the absurd idea that Davros can survive outside his chariot if SPOILERS FOR SEASON 9/35 bloody Witch's Familiar hadn't had him wriggling around on the floor END OF SPOILERS.

Anyway, he can't survive for very LONG so detaching him from said base cos, hey, it'll be fine, who needs a life-support system anyway and then saying 'Oops, maybe we made a bit of a mistake' was QUITE STUPID when you've gone to all these lengths to get hold of Davros.

The Thals are demanding that the Kaled Supremo 'released all Thal political prisoners' - er, they're not POLITICAL PRISONERS, they're prisoners of war. Though frankly I'd be astonished if the Kaleds had any.

Isn't Davros overplaying his hand, giving the Supremo leave to go - before he's ready to blow up said Supremo?

The Kaleds have institutions full of the mad and mutated? I wouldn't have thought they'd have the time or money for such luxuries - just hand them all over to Davros to experiment on or, if he can't be bothered, chuck the Mutos out into the wasteland. (Mind you, I suppose it fits in quite nicely with the totally bizarre idea that the Daleks end up running their own lunatic asylum planet.)

The Kaled Supremo is talking about POLKA DOTS? Truly, parallel evolution is an amazing thing...

So to Nyder, 'doing the right thing' means 'doing whatever is necessary to preserve the purity of the Kaled race'. Shouldn't he have more important concerns, like WINNING THE WAR? I mean, these people KNOW about evolution (there's even hints they evolved from clams, for heaven's sake), they know that mutation is necessary to create an intelligent species in the first place.

When Davros is murdering the councillors, there are some female-sounding screams even though he addressed them as 'gentlemen'.

V: The Davros Mission:

So the Thals knew all about Davros's little Necros operation - why didn't they do something about him THEN?

The Daleks make Davros a nice new metal hand (or, um, just arrive with spare limbs)? That's very sweet of them. Even Davros thinks so, by the way he praises it as 'ingenious' though surely he'd have encountered a LOT more ingenious things in his time.

'The whole Thal nation' - Thals have a NATION? 'No pressure then' - Thatls have the 'no pressure then' expression? (Did Barbara or Ian introduce it...?)

Why did the Thal planners not anticipate non-Dalek slaves aboard a Dalek ship? They could EASILY have been the kind of slaves who'd shop Lareen for a couple of oranges...And it's not as if she's had any being-tactful-to-other-lifeforms training to get them on her side, either...

'You have done well' - since when would a Dalek be CONGRATULATED for obeying orders and ignoring Davros?

Lareen didn't think to bring CUTTING EQUIPMENT instead of that stupid teleport that lights up every energy-detector on the Dalek ship?

'To confront you with your crimes against the civilised cosmos' - cos, after all, the uncivilised bits of the cosmos were just ASKING for a Dalek invasion.

Why would Davros assume 'I'm insane!' instead of 'Oh, the Thals have invented an invisibility suit. Or are talking to me by radio. Or something.' Davros didn't even realise he was insane when he was trying to blow up every universe ever.

'The first race you condemned to suffering and humiliation' - when did Davros HUMILIATE the Thals? And isn't humiliation relatively unimportant, in the great scheme of things?

Why the hell aren't the Daleks monitoring Davros's cell?

'Davros is delusional. He can no longer be trusted' - TRUSTED? You kidnapped him from Necros and imprisoned him and are taking him to be put on trial for betraying the Dalek race AND YOU TRUSTED HIM BEFORE HE STARTED TALKING TO HIMSELF?

(Blimey, did they KNOW the charges were trumped-up? (Well, OK, Davros DID try to destroy the Daleks in Resurrection but it's a SAWARD story, it's not like there were any witnesses left alive...))

'We will leave you here with only your diminishing thoughts for company' - that sounds suspiciously like gloating, for a Dalek.

Why are the Molluscs relying on Lareen to off Davros? Why does it take them so long to realise that it would be 'easy to cause a bit of fatal damage'?

THAT'S a trial? State the charges ('Davros has betrayed us, boo hoo') don't offer any evidence, don't let the accused speak, pronounce him guilty. All over in about thirty seconds. Why bother with this farce at all?

Why do the Daleks decide to defy their Supreme and vote Davros just cos he doesn't murder them with a Movellan virus? The fact he'd JUST CREATED THEM didn't make 'em follow him in Genesis.

Behind the Scenes:

An entire DISC of extras? You are too generous. Don't do it again. I mean, REALLY don't do it again, PLEASE. Y'know.

An hour of people telling you Davros comes from a dysfunctional family (you don't say!) and it's based on I, Claudius? Lovely. Y'know.

Oh, OK, someone's actually trying to be original and claiming it's crossing Little House on the Prairie with The Addams Family. Shouldn't this entail a hand wriggling around all by itself? WHERE IS THAT HAND? Y'know.

Franklin: None of us including Pertwee knew that Who would take off and become a cult? Surely it had ALREADY done so long before Pertwee took over. Y'know.

Oh gods, they're padding it out with large extracts from every audio anyone who's written for/acted in I, Davros has ever worked for. Please, please, make it stop. Y'know.

'The first Dalek is a Thal who's been experimented on' - oh. That's actually a good point I really should have noticed. Doesn't it render the entire Dalek race pointless as a means of perpetuating the Kaleds over the evil Thals? Y'know.

'I suppose you could do something set between another Doctor Who story, but what's the point' - yeah, it has to be admitted that The Davros Mission IS spectacularly pointless, but you should have known better than to write off pointless sequels just yet...Y'know.

You've made most of the points I was going to make, Calcula so easily killing Yarvell for example.

One thing I would say is that the Kaleds seem remarkably tolerant of peace activists, 1000 years of war and they tolerate peace activists even in the military right up until the last 30 years or so.

Why on Earth would the Thal have a parachute that pulls them towards the ground? It's not as if they'll float away otherwise as one falls to his death when a chute fails.

So Skaro was mostly intact until the last 100 years of the wasps as Davros had his villa away from the fighting. And if that'd the only cause of pollutants as they imply I'm not sure how that could curse much harm to the planet. A few thousand people going at it a few miles apart can't do that much damage, it's not as if they're using huge weapons of else they'd all be dead.

Really so much of the war makes no sense at all. They keep going on about how it's lasted so long and how much damage has been done then you get unscarred bits of the planet and diplomatic visits to the Thal city!

This was in many ways a tragedy, I almost felt sorry for Davros at times.

Surely assassinating the supremo (in his gold robe) was a mistake as when a new council is set up (an elected council :-O. He can't blackmail him into doing what he wants, he has no hold over him.

I did like their depiction of Nyder, I always felt his willingness to go ahead with the destruction of the Kaled city rather unrealistic in the original but knowing him to be such a believer in Davros and his work it makes much more sense.

How did they have all those domes? There's only one.

I assume all the handmines had died by the time Davros went on his mission, they could have been killed by the radiation the shelling, have a limited life etc.

Really this story doesn't match the Magicians Apprentice but then again That story doesn't match Genesis.

I did like their depiction of Nyder, I always felt his willingness to go ahead with the destruction of the Kaled city rather unrealistic in the original but knowing him to be such a believer in Davros and his work it makes much more sense.

You don't need THIS, the Davros/Nyder bromance was all conveyed beautifully on-screen!

Really this story doesn't match the Magicians Apprentice but then again That story doesn't match Genesis.

WHAT! Of course Magician doesn't contradict Genesis! Aside from Davros's bizarre failure to remember the Doctor or wave the sonic screwdriver around or not have already realised from Capaldi n'sonic that there was life on other planets...

One thing I did think was unrealistic was all the council guards being cool to go along with killing their leaders. I don't care how good a soldier lieutenant Nyder is he was only a lieutenant until his promotion. It would have been much better if he'd killed the guards except Nyder with his bombs or if some were loyal to Davros, some Nyder and they'd killed each other.

Magicians Apprentice doesn't match Genesis at all bows and arrows at a time when they still had guns, the handmines and clam drones showing up way before genetic engineering was a thing. I mean the comments about how the early experiments were cast off into the cave were very clear they were a new thing.

Also bows and arrows really aren't that useful a weapon for a soldier who's not practiced for years. Also they would need swords and clubs for close quarters.

And as they would still have bullets and ray guns for decades more one so armed soldier could wipe them all out

Furthermore, Magicians Apprentice doesn't match I, Davros either, which clearly shows most soldiers still using energy weapons when Davros was a child.

I suspect the bows and arrows are a meta-joke based on a remark made by Harry about the devolution of the technology.

Yeah, now you mention it, Genesis doesn't make any sense in its own right, never mind when compared to other stories...maybe we should decide that the sudden bows and arrows v ray-guns scenario is a result of Time Lords trying to screw around with Skaro's history and Daleks trying to stop 'em. (I suppose we all just assumed that there was SOMETHING stopping a TARDIS dropping in and leaving a nice big bomb on Skaro at some point in its pre-Dalek history, but Magician/Witch suggests otherwise.)

Yeah as soon as I saw the bows I got the reference but it wasn't the best they've ever done.

Don't ask me why they didn't just nuke Skaro rather than just sending the Doc to mess around, especially as they must have guessed he'd have ethical misgivings. Maybe they just love the Thals so much.

As for the bows, Time War, Time War 😀

No one could possibly care about the Thals THAT much.

And it's not like the Time Lords give a toss about collateral damage, just look at End of Time or Mysterious Planet...

The End of Time Time Lords were very far gone and the Mysterious planet didn't involve changing history, also mankind had other colonies so wouldn't be rendered extinct.

the Mysterious planet didn't involve changing history

How do you know that? What kind of crazy history would involve moving a few lightyears and renaming yourself RAVALOX, FFS?

also mankind had other colonies so wouldn't be rendered extinct

Look, you don't get to commit genocide and then excuse yourself on the grounds that, hey, I'm sure there are some more of the species around SOMEWHERE. That's not how it WORKS.

Well Earth's host you in the Doctor Who universe makes no sense and is completely contradictory so what's a bit of Ravalox thrown into the mix.

I suspect the Timelords would accept that reasoning. Maybe the Thals have too big a part to play I the universe to make it so they never achieved spaceflight.

But the Time Lords had laws against reducing Vervoids to compost. DEATH-PENALTY kinda laws.

Exactly, because he wiped them all out. The story seems to imply if just one had lived he'd be off the hook

But the usual definition of 'genocide' isn't killing ALL of a species, just a hefty chunk.

You’re absolutely right, the Time Lords seem to disagree though. As long as one survives its ok. Plus the Doc was vastly overstating the danger of the Vervoids so maybe they weren’t too sold on his excuses. No reason not to catch them in a net, truck them into a locked room or simply remind the guards that they have guns

Plus the Doc was vastly overstating the danger of the Vervoids so maybe they weren’t too sold on his excuses. No reason not to catch them in a net, truck them into a locked room or simply remind the guards that they have guns

Except that sooner or later someone would have opened that locked door to have a peek/try to profit from them/FREE THE INNOCENT PLANTS! and the next thing you know, one leaf would fall and a few hours later there'd be a fully-fledged Vervoid, whispering away planning universal domination.

And if the Doctor HAD been exaggerating you can be sure the Valeyard and/or Inquisitor would have mentioned it, gods know they spent FOURTEEN ••••••• EPISODES bickering over every OTHER word that passed the Doctor's lips.

Glitz, Mel and the Master did interrupt the trial minutes later and with Doc’s admission of genocide there was no need to quibble over the danger of the creatures.

As for I Davros, we know from the beginning and end of each episode that Davros is telling his life story to the Daley’s but I wonder if what we’re hearing is what Davros is saying or what really happened.

If it is just what he’s saying that would explain the inconsistencies, for example maybe his mother didn’t really drown his sister Calcula killed her some other way, or had someone else drown her and Davros simply assumed it was his mother doing it single handed. Though it does also make large parts of the story speculation and you wonder what made Davros suspect what was rally being said e.g. his real father being a councillor.

It’s a shame Davros had such amoral parents he was far more moral than they were and he almost came close to being a good man at times. He seeemd to improve with age a bit as well strangely. Young Davros was more amoral than the soldier or leader of the scientific elite.

Glitz, Mel and the Master did interrupt the trial minutes later

Exactly! WHOLE MINUTES in which the Valeyard could have ripped apart the Doctor's claims that the Leafy-Tracksuited-Ones could have destroyed Earth. (Assuming they WERE untrue, I'm going with the Doctor's story that they'd've killed us all, mainly because I don't want to think about Vervoids any more than I have to.)

and with Doc’s admission of genocide there was no need to quibble over the danger of the creatures.

No NEED but the Valeyard was in full Nitpicker Mode (believe me - takes one to know one) and he'd've gone for it like a shot.

Anyway, if they HAD started trying the Doctor for genocide he'd've wheeled out his 'But YOU told me to go genocide all the Daleks!' defence at which point things WOULD have got bogged down in whether or not the genocidees were genocidally evil themselves, whatever Time Lord Law (allegedly) said. If the Doctor was exaggerating the Valeyard should have nailed that immediately.

As for I Davros, we know from the beginning and end of each episode that Davros is telling his life story to the Daley’s but I wonder if what we’re hearing is what Davros is saying or what really happened.

Oh. That's a point.

It’s a shame Davros had such amoral parents he was far more moral than they were and he almost came close to being a good man at times.

He WHAAAAAAAAAAT! WHEN!

He seeemd to improve with age a bit as well strangely. Young Davros was more amoral than the soldier or leader of the scientific elite.

Didn't he gas the Government when he was leader of the scientific elite? Don't remember him doing anything quite THAT awful when he was a kid, though of course meeting Those Eyebrows at that age could REALLY screw you up...

Maybe the Valeyard was thinking it was best to carry on with pushing for the genocide charge to be added whilst he and the Inquisitor were on the same page. You’re not supposed to be able to add charges in the middle of the trial. Or maybe he was afraid he’d be made to watch the whole thing again. He’s had to sit through all season 14 in one sitting. Even he must have been getting bored by then.

He seemed more bothered by death as he got older and the facist turn their society was taking, a far cry from the 16 yr old who murdered his tutor without a thought. Once his mother was killed he definitely went off the deep end.

I fail to see how roughing up Calcula would break her in any way, she’s very dangerous,and something so clumsy would make her more dangerous. Why would her followers riot after her death? They don’t know it was the supremo.

“Even you Nyder” a very good reference to et tu brute but it doesn’t quiet fit. Nyder isn’t exactly a strong supporter or close to the supremo.

Why was Davros experimenting so drastically on those kids? He knows the direction his mutants will take with the Dalek, he invents the first one days later so why put gils on people? And he’s just asking for rebellion when people find out, he isn’t so near the end point of the dalek program he can afford that.

This story ends 6 months before genesis, why have a lab in the council chamber? The bunker should be ready by now.

Maybe the Valeyard was thinking it was best to carry on with pushing for the genocide charge to be added whilst he and the Inquisitor were on the same page.

Yeah, there IS that, we've never got to the bottom of her riding roughshod over law and basic sanity to persecute the Doctor (AND US) in this manner.

You’re not supposed to be able to add charges in the middle of the trial.

*Hollow laughter*

Or maybe he was afraid he’d be made to watch the whole thing again. He’s had to sit through all season 14 in one sitting. Even he must have been getting bored by then.

Not just that, the Valeyard had to watch all the evidence beforehand to tamper with it, and EVERY Colin Baker story ever cos how was he to know that Colin would pick Terror of the Vervoids of all things.

When you think about it, the poor guy has suffered enough...

He seemed more bothered by death as he got older and the facist turn their society was taking, a far cry from the 16 yr old who murdered his tutor without a thought.

Well, who HASN'T had a teacher or two they wanted to subject to fatal experimentation?

I fail to see how roughing up Calcula would break her in any way, she’s very dangerous,and something so clumsy would make her more dangerous. Why would her followers riot after her death? They don’t know it was the supremo.

No idea, what with not remembering any of this.

“Even you Nyder” a very good reference to et tu brute but it doesn’t quiet fit. Nyder isn’t exactly a strong supporter or close to the supremo.

Maybe the Supremo just sensed that Nyder was capable of total blind kill-your-own-race loyalty, and mistakenly assumed that it was directed towards HIM?

Why was Davros experimenting so drastically on those kids? He knows the direction his mutants will take with the Dalek, he invents the first one days later so why put gils on people?

I s'pose because they were trying to be in keeping with Genesis, which produced That Clam to prove that Davros's experiments REALLY went off the deep end...

And he’s just asking for rebellion when people find out, he isn’t so near the end point of the dalek program he can afford that

True, but maybe he was well-prepared to deal with a rebellion? He wiped the floor with a TOM-BAKER-INSPIRED revolt, after all...

Well the Time Lords aren’t exactly huge on due process.

That’s a point, the Valeyard had to watch every single story, and the audios too. I wonder what he made of his pirate story?

For enough, Nyder has only just met Davros and has already joined him.

Even Davros admitted the clam was a total waste of time which was why he needed accces to Kaleds

His stopping the Tom Baker inspired revolt only worked because he brought the Daleks online well ahead of schedule. I wonder if Davros kept control of them longer in the original Timeline before they rebelled. I presume he used them on his own city too in the original Timeline

Well the Time Lords aren’t exactly huge on due process.

Hey! No vaporisation without representation, what MORE could anyone ask for ;)

Nyder has only just met Davros and has already joined him.

Ahhh, bromanace at first sight.

I wonder if Davros kept control of them longer in the original Timeline before they rebelled. I presume he used them on his own city too in the original Timeline

Interesting, isn't it, that the Doctor just assumes he changed the timeline by a thousand years rather than was a part of it all along.

Yeah didn’t they want to do a Little Britain style sketch with Davros and Nyder.

There’s a question, was the Doc part of the Timeline always. Still I’m sure there have been enough bits of dialogue here and there that state history was changed and wasn’t meant to turn out like this. Maybe that’s why the Thal’s disappeared from the TV show. Changing history prevented them gaining space travel

I’m sure there have been enough bits of dialogue here and there that state history was changed and wasn’t meant to turn out like this.

Yeah, the Doctor casually claimed to have set the Daleks back by a thousand years but he's not exactly one of those New Who types who have the whole of time and space running through their heads and can sense a Fixed/Still/Flux point a mile off. There's no way it'll take the Daleks a millennium to dig their way out of that bunker.

The BBC website also meantioned that history was changed, it was a completed history of the whoniverse but that was pre the new series.

I assumed he meant that he’d interfered with their technological development by forcing them to be brought online early meaning they were more primitive, still had some limits on them etc. Plus he blew up the incubation room, kept them in the bunker longer, it all adds up.

The BBC website also meantioned that history was changed

And I s'pose Dalek history was such a contradictory mess by its SECOND STORY that you've pretty much gotta try to explain SOME of it away with shifting histories, and who better to blame than the Doctor (Tom AND Capaldi)?

Plus he blew up the incubation room

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting that, what with the scene where he DOESN'T blow up the incubation room being the one that sticks in your head...

It explains it all away fairly nicely and concludes with the statement that now Davros was still alive rather than being killed like he was in the original timeline the Daleks were doomed to be weak, disunited, suffering constant civil war and would never invent Time Travel like they had in the Chase. So they would never threaten the Time Lords or conquer the universe.

Nice to know that stuck.

Well it doesn’t help that that the clip with him holding the wires wondering if he should is always played out of context and cuts off before the real end of the scene and the voiceover states he chose not to destroy it when actually events conspired against him so he never really got to make a decision

So why did they decide to use I Clavdivs as an inspiration anyway?

It explains it all away fairly nicely and concludes with the statement that now Davros was still alive rather than being killed like he was in the original timeline the Daleks were doomed to be weak, disunited, suffering constant civil war and would never invent Time Travel like they had in the Chase.

Uh? Are they claiming that Davros never whipped up that magic-forcefield-that-enabled-him-to-survive-extermination in the original timeline - it was a (suspiciously quick) result of meeting Tom?

Why should Davros affect them so badly? He's the smelly old uncle/family pet they stash in the basement.

And the Daleks MUST have invented time-travel by the Time War or surely even the Time Lords would have managed to wipe them out.

Have you got a link?

So why did they decide to use I Clavdivs as an inspiration anyway?

Who's usually at its best when it's stealing from the best, and I, Claudius (novels, TV series AND the history they're based on) ARE the best.

Yep that’s exactly it, they say Davros included a force field in his chair as the Docs warnings had some effect. Maybe he was also concerned that the Doc’s entire history of encounters with the Daleks didn’t include Davros.

Here’s the link

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/dalekhistory2.shtml

Davros never mentioned a forcefield in Destiny though, funny that.

Davros seems to affect the Daleks so badly because he advocates changing them, remember the difference between the Daleks in Destiny, plus his constant scheming to take over the Daleks must cause problems, maybe some began to feel his cunning was worth listing to as well.

The Daleks will invent Time Travel but the history was written before the new series so the BBC didn’t know their conclusion was going to be proved wrong. Still it’s very clear that Davros has learned to get on with the Dalek emporers and stopped trying to take over, we see that in the new series and the descriptions of the Time War. So once they did unite they could invent time travel like in the Chase.

I Claudius is good but it’s a just a funny choice. Genesis of the Daleks gave no impression that there was much political intrigue in the Kaled city, that Davros and Nyder had killed the council, that Davros had a Livia like mother etc, or even that things hadn’t been that bad for that long.

Genesis made it seem the Kaleds had been nazis and living in their domed city on a ruined planet since forever and I’m sure Davros was implied to be far older than 60, which is roughly how old he is when Genesis began according to this.

They say atomic weapons were used “early” in the war. As that was a thousand years ago surely Skaro should be impoving this late in the War not getting worse, they’re only using shells and energy weapons/WW1 weapons in a tiny coroner of the planet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/dalekhistory2.shtml

Thanks! Though I think they may be going a bit far on the 'Without [Davros] the Daleks had a solid, cohesive empire, always with one purpose' stuff. They had SEVERAL purposes, including building their own TARDISes, killing the Doctor, developing a human/Dalek factor, removing Earth's core and piloting it around the universe...

Maybe he was also concerned that the Doc’s entire history of encounters with the Daleks didn’t include Davros.

Bloody good point. Had it been me, I'd certainly have raised that issue with the Doctor and maybe tortured Sarah and Harry a bit to make the point that I'm JUST NOT HAPPY with what he's telling me...

Davros never mentioned a forcefield in Destiny though, funny that.

That IS weird, I was sure that of course he'd mentioned a forcefield till I checked the transcript and hey, 'There was damage to my primary life support system. The secondary and back-up circuits switch in immediately. Synthetic tissue regeneration took place whilst bodily organs were held in long-term suspension' - so it looks like the Doc was being seriously overoptimistic about the effects of just switching Davros off for thirty seconds. *Checks transcript* Hmm. Davros TELLS the Doctor he wouldn't last for thirty seconds without his life support systems and, just to prove it, he ORDERS THE DESTRUCTION OF ALL HIS PRECIOUS LITTLE DALEK BABIES when the Doc threatens to press the •••• switch.

his constant scheming to take over the Daleks must cause problems

Yeah, there's a fifth (download only) I, Davros audio you might want to listen to on this subject. (Sadly, unlike the first four, it isn't actually any good.)

Genesis of the Daleks gave no impression that there was much political intrigue in the Kaled city, that Davros and Nyder had killed the council, that Davros had a Livia like mother etc, or even that things hadn’t been that bad for that long.

Yeah, but...apart from all that...;)

True but it everything the Daleks did from building Tardis’s to mining Earth’s core was about taking over the universe. With Davros around they spent half their time trying to wipe each other out.

Was there a time skip in the interrogation at any point? A part where they cut to another scene maybe that’s when he asked if the Doc had heard of him? The novelisation mentions he lists everything he can remember.

Yep the force field comes from the Dalek history, it’s not the first time I’ve mentioned the two histories and I have brought up the forcefield before.

I assume Davros meant turning all his life support off would kill him but the Daleks only damaged the primary system. Still it doesn’t make him sound extermination proof.

Which is the fifth audio? I downloaded I Davros and I didn’t spot it. Is it the one that’s advertised where Davros is being taken over by a Dalek personality

True but it everything the Daleks did from building Tardis’s to mining Earth’s core was about taking over the universe.

I'm not so sure. I mean, the Dalek-TARDIS was solely to chase the Doctor with, not because they realised he'd thwart their universal-domination plans time and again (he's HARTNELL, after all) but because he'd really, really pissed them off. (Had they held the goal of universal-domination firmly in mind they'd've realized they needed a fleet of TARDISes and KEPT THE BLOODY BLUEPRINTS.)

And hollowing out Earth to pilot it around the universe sounds like the sort of thing you do for a drunken bet, not part of an actual, practical long-term PLAN.

With Davros around they spent half their time trying to wipe each other out.

Yeah, but they did in Evil of the Daleks too.

And maybe all that infighting just made them stronger in the end, strong enough to take on the Time Lords and very nearly win...

Was there a time skip in the interrogation at any point?

Must've been cos we didn't hear the Doctor recite THAT many historical events.

I assume Davros meant turning all his life support off would kill him but the Daleks only damaged the primary system

But SURELY even DAVROS wouldn't have a 'here's a switch to turn off ALL my life-support systems, yes including all the back-ups!' installed on his chair, I mean, he's mad but he's not THAT mad.

Which is the fifth audio? I downloaded I Davros and I didn’t spot it. Is it the one that’s advertised where Davros is being taken over by a Dalek personality

It's The Davros Mission and for gods' sake DON'T pay £7.99 for it. I paid a quid and still felt ripped off...

Whether chasing the Doc was reveng or not it would still have had the desired effect. Plus they built a Tardis! Even the Daleks are allowed to have bad ideas about how to take over the universe.

Evil of the Daleks was down to the Doctor’s meddling and as much damage as it did, that schism only lasted a day.

They must have been stronger one they resolved the infighting and Davros’s creativity must have helped them.

Davros didn’t think things through exactly, after all he never saw the betrayal of his creations coming.

Plus they built a Tardis!

Are we absolutely sure they didn't just nick one from the Time Lords and PRETEND to have built it...?

that schism only lasted a day

Because it only took a day for the Daleks to wipe themselves out!

Davros’s creativity must have helped them.

You would think so, though it hardly explains why they went along with his crazy 'Destroy every universe ever! It'll be fun!' plan.

Davros didn’t think things through exactly, after all he never saw the betrayal of his creations coming.

Well he sure built a lot of back-up-life-support-systems for someone who didn't see betrayal coming. (And, according to Resurrection, that magic pen-thing to zap people (and I think Daleks?) into instant obedience with.)

I assume they didn’t steal it, it looked different.

That’s only what the Doc said, it was shown later by numerous sources they survived. After all there were not that many humanised Daleks.

Maybe they worked out they couldn’t win any other way so they had to destroy all the universes.

It’s always good to have backups, things break after all. He should really have done a better job instilling absolute obedience to him into the Daleks.

I assume they didn’t steal it, it looked different.

That doesn't mean a thing, TARDISes are infinitely variable in appearance, both externally and internally. Those with a working chameleon circuit that is.

After all there were not that many humanised Daleks.

There must have (somehow - and damned if I remember HOW) been at least equal numbers of 'em or they'd never have managed to unleash full-scale civil war, given that our adorable Alpha, Beta, Omega and co almost certainly weren't as good at exterminating as the pure Daleks, owing to their desire to stop every now and then to play trains...

Maybe they worked out they couldn’t win any other way so they had to destroy all the universes.

But it's not the winning that counts, it's the taking part! Surely constant exterminations, enslavings and mine-diggings - even if you have occasional set-backs thanks to that pesky Doctor - are way more fun than ruling over...nothing. Literally nothing. FOREVER.

And anyway, weren't they WINNING at the time? They'd wiped every last stinking Time Lord out of the sky*, they're doing pretty well, all things considered, and even if they were losing they wouldn't admit that the Sup-reme-Be-ings-of-the-u-ni-verse were DOOMED, they'd expect something to come up, a nice space-plague or stolen Time Lord tech or Progenitor thingamijig or SOMETHING.

He should really have done a better job instilling absolute obedience to him into the Daleks.

No doubt Davros just assumed they'd be metallic versions of Nyder, bless him...

*OK...watched at the Doctor did it, anyway.

Tardis console rooms look mostly the same inside. Ok there’s variation but never to the extent that you can’t even identify the console.

The Doc said to send all Daleks through the archway that the emporer didn’t realise was made to turn them human so a fair few must have gone through but the Daleks realised what was happening fairly quickly. The follow up comment says that the rebel’s were massively outnumbered. Presumably it was a matter of almost all the Daleks nearest the arch and throne room being changed so they did a lot of damage before the rest could get there to stop them. We see that at first only the black Daleks in those sections escaped being changed so with the rebels concentrated in a key sector it must have been difficult to dislodge them. The comic also says that the can better use their psychic powers by being human, presumably this gave them greater mobility and firepower too.

They were winning the Time War but then the Doc wiped them out so safer to destroy the universe whilst he wasn’t looking, and masters or Time or not conquering the universe takes a lot of effort. They couldn’t be certain there weren’t aliens more powerful than the Time Lords somwhere in a far far off galaxy.

Yeah I wondere what they intended to do afterwards, maybe Davros was planning to make a new universe they could put some slaves in. Jubilee touched on the matter of what the Daleks would do if they ever did win. But it was only a foot soldier that didn’t know what to do then, maybe the senior Daleks had a plan.

Yeah Davros should really have cloned Nyder to use as the basis of his creatures.

so a fair few must have gone through but the Daleks realised what was happening fairly quickly. The follow up comment says that the rebel’s were massively outnumbered. Presumably it was a matter of almost all the Daleks nearest the arch and throne room being changed so they did a lot of damage before the rest could get there to stop them

Ah, I SEE.

Obviously the Doctor misled himself and us all by assuming that once the Emperor went down it was the final end of the Daleks. I always KNEW that groveling-monarchist side of him would cause problems...

The comic also says that the can better use their psychic powers by being human, presumably this gave them greater mobility and firepower too.

Comic what comic, they're not canon!

They were winning the Time War but then the Doc wiped them out so safer to destroy the universe whilst he wasn’t looking

They THOUGHT they were winning but Rassilon was about to wipe 'em all out (along with the universe. Or something).

And the Doctor's ALWAYS looking, there's just NO WAY he's not gonna notice you attempting to wipe out the universe, especially if you're stupid enough to steal his favourite planet in the process...

maybe Davros was planning to make a new universe they could put some slaves in.

Make it out of WHAT!

The Doc does sometimes exaggerate the effect of his plans or the danger of the monster of the week. Maybe he thought they’d fall into civil war without the emperor. But he seemed to survive.

This is the comic, I meant to say it was the follow up COMIC that said the humanised Daleks we’re outnumbered. http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Children_of_the_Revolution

Yes Rasilon was going to cheat but that was the only way to win. Also didn’t his plan only work because the Master could exist in a post Time War safe galaxy that was Dalek free, or something.

The Daleks still nearly succeeded in destroying the universe. Doc needed another design ex machina.

They could make the new universe out of the rubble of the old, or something.

The Doc does sometimes exaggerate the effect of his plans or the danger of the monster of the week.

Lies and slander!

OK, possibly except the whole crashing-Titanic-will-wipe-out-Earth thing...

Maybe he thought they’d fall into civil war without the emperor.

That's not what he implies by 'The final end!', though. Maybe he was just trying to console a distraught Victoria? Though that could have backfired spectacularly if they'd then bumped into some Daleks on their travels...mind you, I s'pose he could claim it's millions of years earlier, honest, as he did in Dalek Invasion of Earth in defiance of all actual evidence...

Yes Rasilon was going to cheat but that was the only way to win

That was the only way the High Council could think of to win, but then as anyone who opens their gob gets vaporised it's not surprising that they're not exactly the brightest and the best.

Also didn’t his plan only work because the Master could exist in a post Time War safe galaxy that was Dalek free, or something.

Um...yeah probably...and Rassilon's ability to chuck a diamond through a timelock and all the way to Earth...or something...

They could make the new universe out of the rubble of the old, or something.

There wasn't gonna BE any rubble. 'People and planets and stars will become dust, and the dust will become atoms, and the atoms will become - nothing.'

Don’t forget the Vervoids.

That’s the best explanation, rule 1 the doctor dies.

Oh then maybe they were going to make some new atoms. Maybe all Davros cared about was winning and after that so what if the Daleks eventually fell into civil war. He can’t have that many years left in him.

When Nicolas Briggs Thal is trying to break into Davros’s lab he mentions that the password is probably either be (something I can’t remember) or Oedipal. Interesting that this planet has Rels not seconds but the Oedipus complex has the same name.

Don’t forget the Vervoids.

Frankly I'm doing my level best to forget the Vervoids.

(As is everyone else - I don't think any of the spin-off media have stooped to doing a prequel/sequel?)

(*Checks TARDIS Wikia* Oh, a few comics - they don't count. And the Ultimate Adventure audio?!)

That’s the best explanation, rule 1 the doctor dies.

The Doctor WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT!

Oh then maybe they were going to make some new atoms.

IS it possible to create atoms out of nothing? And even if it is, I personally just aren't sold on this idea. 'Let's destroy everything!' 'But what if we get bored afterwards?' 'I'll create some new atoms!'

Maybe all Davros cared about was winning and after that so what if the Daleks eventually fell into civil war.

But THE DALEKS should care, and they're the ones going along with this crazy destroy-every-universe-ever plan of Davros's for no readily apparent reason.

Come to think of it, do they never spare a thought for all their Dalek-brethren in all those other universes?

He can’t have that many years left in him.

He probably has now that moronic Doctor gave him all that regeneration energy...

Interesting that this planet has Rels not seconds but the Oedipus complex has the same name.

Well, a rel is slightly different from a second (I think I read somewhere), so you've pretty much gotta stick with its Skarosian name, whereas obviously SOMETHING is considerately translating whatever-the-Kaled-word-for-fancying-your-mother-is into something WE can understand.

Sorry I meant the Doctor lies. Must have been the English Empire timeline bleeding through ;-)

According to the laws of physics it is impossible, discounting whatever happened before the Big Bang of course. However it’s also impossible to completely destroy atoms as well so when you’ve managed that why not make new ones, maybe that’s what the crucible was doing. The rule is that matter can it be created or destroyed, only changed.

As Jubilee showed us the Daleks don’t seem to have thought through what to do when they finally win. So maybe they wouldn’t realise civil war is inevitable until it happened, or maybe the senior Daleks do have a plan.

Maybe the Daleks in other universes are collateral damage, they can’t be sure they wouldn’t be hostile to them.

Although if the parallel universe theory is true there must surely be a reality where the bomb did go off so it should have destroyed the multiverse.

I did think of the regeneration energy but this was before that. Davros was nearly dead by the time he got it so he wouldn’t have had to spend long in his Dalek only universe

Yeah I know the real reason is that it’s translated for our benefit but it did amuse me that it was.

Sorry I meant the Doctor lies. Must have been the English Empire timeline bleeding through ;-)

Nonsense, don't blame the English Empire, the Doctor doesn't DIE there, he just...gets his legs chopped off...

maybe the senior Daleks do have a plan

If they HAD a plan it should have been along the lines of DON'T LET THAT MANIAC DAVROS DESTROY EVERY UNIVERSE EVER FOR NO READILY APPARENT REASON.

Maybe the Daleks in other universes are collateral damage, they can’t be sure they wouldn’t be hostile to them.

Yeah, admittedly the ones who popped through in Dalek Empire were pretty hostile to 'our' Daleks, but they shouldn't go round taking the audios as CANON...

Although if the parallel universe theory is true there must surely be a reality where the bomb did go off so it should have destroyed the multiverse.

*Sigh* I think we've gotta regard the Whoniverse as some sort of prime universe that everything else is an inferior echo of and not so many exciting things happen in (despite their remarkable similarity to The Real Thing in Inferno and Rise of the Cybermen). And there's no sign of a Doctor in 'em, ergo Davros would probably have died young from hand-mines...

I did think of the regeneration energy but this was before that. Davros was nearly dead by the time he got it so he wouldn’t have had to spend long in his Dalek only universe

Don't fall for this 'I'm dying, honest' routine. Even Capaldi, who fell for it to the extent of DECIDING TO DIE to see dear old Davros again, pointed out that he wasn't really giving the 'dying' thing much welly...

But they said the Doctor died, it’s a state secret he’s in the tower in his wheelchair.

The fact that the Daleks have failed to conquer the universe shows planning isn’t always their thing. Maybe they did have a way for the Daleks to get by with no other life. I mean they hate all other life and yearn to kill it so if there is no other life maybe that hate will leave them? Or something?

Yeah I was thinking of those ‘good’ Daleks, well the audios are cannon when they want to be or if not maybe the Daleks suspected that good Daleks might exist or there’s an alternate reality where the humanised Daleks won the war.

Yeah Who parralel universes clearly don’t work in the same way as the real world theory says they would. Not every possible action and all it’s many permutations. Maybe the apparent lack of Time Lords in parallel universes (the odd novel aside) means it never gets to reality bomb levels.

Yeah maybe still Davros has been through a lot his chair can’t keep him going forever.

But they said the Doctor died, it’s a state secret he’s in the tower in his wheelchair.

Ah, but people are always saying the Doctor's dead - Sarah Jane hurled herself sobbing across his chest due to this particular misapprehension at least twice a story - it doesn't start turning all the skies of all the worlds dark/bleeding through to turn 'the Doctor lies' into 'the Doctor dies' unless s/he's GENUINELY a gonner.

The fact that the Daleks have failed to conquer the universe shows planning isn’t always their thing

Or shows that conquering the universe isn't really their thing. Davros was blissfully unaware of the very existence of life on other planets when he created them, remember. They may feel a vague sense of duty towards exterminating everything, but let's face it, they get WAY more of a thrill from carving statues, bickering in Parliament, watching slaves dig exciting mines, admiring their lunatic asylum, and mini-Sexy-target-practice.

Maybe they did have a way for the Daleks to get by with no other life. I mean they hate all other life and yearn to kill it so if there is no other life maybe that hate will leave them? Or something?

But what would they BE without that hatred?

Anyway, you don't stop hating just because the object of your hatred gets sacked by Michael Grade dissolved into nothingness.

maybe the Daleks suspected that good Daleks might exist

Though to be fair, Dalek Empire's 'good' Daleks turned out to be pretty evil.

Anyway, when they DID actually spot a good Dalek they didn't over-react by destroying every universe ever, they just, um, sent a few Daleks to kill Rusty/get stripped naked by Rusty. One at a time.

Maybe then some of the big boss Daleks like say the Emporer do realise the truth, that the Daleks can never win or they’ll turn on each other, but that would have died with them so the remaining ones who didn’t know so they proceeded with this mad idea without thinking things through.

They might stop hating with it having been totally destroyed.

Yeah I knew the ‘Good’ Daleks were very ends justify the means. If they are cannon though maybe the Daleks were scared that some truly good Daleks were out there, who the Galaxy wouldn’t help them defeat.

Maybe then some of the big boss Daleks like say the Emporer do realise the truth, that the Daleks can never win or they’ll turn on each other, but that would have died with them so the remaining ones who didn’t know so they proceeded with this mad idea without thinking things through.

But the Daleks have had other Emperors since then, and Dalek Supremes, and Big Red Boss Daleks, and (if you believe the audios) Dalek Time Controllers and suchlike...

Yeah I knew the ‘Good’ Daleks were very ends justify the means. If they are cannon though maybe the Daleks were scared that some truly good Daleks were out there

I think they have enough other worries - the Dalek Predator, Movellans, Time Lords, humans, winged-mutated-unstoppable-Daleks-from-Mutant-Phase etc etc...they don't have to start imagining good Daleks to get worked up about.

who the Galaxy wouldn’t help them defeat.

Uh?

True they’ve had other emperors since the original but the newer ones wouldn’t necessarily know that the Daleks mustn’t win as they’d have been created by Daleks who weren’t in on it.

One EU story said the emperor was the Dalek who killed Davros all those years ago, that’s a long time to realise they mustn’t win. The new Emperors, Supremes, Prime Ministers etc hardly last 5 minutes. Though the PM seemed slightly more stable than most of them so maybe he worked it out.

With that lot out there in the universe good Daleks must be even more terrifying a concept. Though the Mutant Phase was erased from time so they don’t have that to think about.

When the Earth alliance found out the good Daleks were actually evil they joined forces with our Daleks to drive them back to their universe.

The new Emperors, Supremes, Prime Ministers etc hardly last 5 minutes.

Aaaaand just to prove your point I'd forgotten they'd ever HAD a Prime Minister. In my defence, their Parliamentary democracy doesn't seem to have been much in evidence in recent years...

When the Earth alliance found out the good Daleks were actually evil they joined forces with our Daleks to drive them back to their universe.

Oh for heaven's SAKE - I think my mind deliberately amnesiaced that out, I mean, I remember Daleks from a parallel universe popping over, telling the real Daleks they were very naughty and siding with the humans before the humans belatedly noticed they were total gits too, but everything after that is a merciful blank.

Lol well Daleks don’t strike me as the type to have any checks and balances on the PM. A shame really as he was quite an interesting character, saner and more human than the average Daleks without being less evil. I’d rather have seen more than him than just another OTT Exterminate Em All Dalek Supreme.

So I take that as your recommendation not to buy the Dalek Empire audios.

Daleks don’t strike me as the type to have any checks and balances on the PM.

But isn't the entire POINT of a Parliament to provide checks and balances?

It could easily be an administrative parliament. And as Daleks all think alike, no need for any checks.

I dunno, it looked suspiciously like they were trying to get a good ethnic mix of Dalek-casings to appeal to the different voting blocs...and the Daleks have had to administer entire GALAXIES before now without bothering about any Parliaments...

Maybe they decided lack of effecting administration is how they lost those galaxies. After all this audio started with Davros saying they were pretty much afraid to leave Skaro at this point,

this audio started with Davros saying they were pretty much afraid to leave Skaro at this point

Blimey, that doesn't really fit in with any period of Dalek history I can think of...

I don’t know they seemed pretty Skaro bound in the Mutant Phase and Evil of the Daleks. The forward to a later edition of Evil of the Daleks said that after Master Plan the Daleks were beaten pretty badly in the ensuing wars. Even pre Master Plan Brett said that the Daleks had only recently conquered decent sized parts of other galaxies.

Plus after the Movellan war there weren’t many Daleks left, we don’t know how quickly they recovered. And maybe the Docs changing history made room to fit it in.

Maybe Davros was overstating the case, they may well have had a half decent sized empire but far smaller than before and they were nervous about expanding. This schism that was mentioned must mean they have some other planets for the other Daleks to be on.

they seemed pretty Skaro bound in the Mutant Phase and Evil of the Daleks

Nonsense, they were all over Earth -

- Oh. Yeah. I'd kinda forgotten that EVERY species is quite happy to travel across galaxies and universes to invade Earth, it doesn't imply that they actually built up an empire on the way...

Also, have just realised what a gibbering moron I am for never once thinking that OF COURSE all the Daleks had to have been on Skaro for Troughton to go round proclaiming the Final End...

The forward to a later edition of Evil of the Daleks said that after Master Plan the Daleks were beaten pretty badly in the ensuing wars.

I'm surprised. Numerous galaxies had just lost their leaders, after all, and what's more they were ALL too bloody stupid to notice that all of said leaders were insane Dalek-loving cretins.

Plus also they used teleportation and time travel to get to Earth in those stories and they were on Earth just to get the Doctor both times.

You wonder how much the people’s of some of those galaxies cared about their leaders allying with the Daleks to invade Earth. Some may have been perfectly happy with it.

The forward said Chen’s conspiracy was exposed and Earth led the charge against the Daleks, even if the outer galaxies didn’t officially ally with us I bet one or two opened up a second front that would have badly hurt the Daleks. We don’t know how big their empire is at this point but Marc Corey gives the impression they don’t even control a whole galaxy yet.

You wonder how much the people’s of some of those galaxies cared about their leaders allying with the Daleks to invade Earth. Some may have been perfectly happy with it.

Well, until they were starving to death while digging holes in the ground, of course...

The forward said Chen’s conspiracy was exposed and Earth led the charge against the Daleks

Yeah, and IF Bret Vyon or Sara Kingdom had lived I'd've believed it. As it is...everyone in positions of power was either corrupt or blind.

Well it was only the Earthlings that would loose out, what do the citizens of the outer galaxies care for humans?

What they say happens is when Space Security searched Brett’s body they found Marc Cory’s tape (Chen and co didn’t know it existed so they didn’t know to destroy it) which was then taken to the senate. Not that many solar system humans knew about the conspiracy it did involve us being conquered by the Daleks after all. Very hard to get people on board with that.

Well it was only the Earthlings that would loose out, what do the citizens of the outer galaxies care for humans?

Oh!

I had assumed that it was a today-Earth-tomorrow-the-Outer-Galaxies kinda situation, but a quick check of the transcript reveals it's more a 'Conquest is assured! Mars! Venus! Jupiter! The moon colonies! They will all fall before our might. But the first of them will be Earth!' issue. Though surely the Daleks are intending to conquer all the Outer Galaxies via their relationship with their rulers plus the Time Destructor? And surely said rulers are intending to extend their dictatorships into actual enslavement of their people with Dalek assistance? Cos I can't believe they're going through all of this just for the sake of, what, a timeshare on Venus?

What they say happens is when Space Security searched Brett’s body they found Marc Cory’s tape (Chen and co didn’t know it existed so they didn’t know to destroy it) which was then taken to the senate.

Aww, I'm not convinced but it's a sweet attempt to make Marc and Bret's deaths COUNT.

The Daleks did seem to have that plan but that was a betrayal of the delegates. The plan seemed to be (after mission to the unknown when it seemed to be just our galaxy/sol) that the outer galaxies and the Daleks would conquer the known universe and co rule it afterwards. No need to conquer the outer galaxies as they were already their allies,

Yeah and the conspiracy was rather vague, at one point Chen seemed to be planning to double cross the Daleks and conquer the Milky Way. Odd he didn’t just tell Space Security that that was the plan. With Chen gone I did wonder what happened to the conspiracy. I assumed it remained unknown and that a new guardian was chosen and the system moved on.

Yeah and the conspiracy was rather vague, at one point Chen seemed to be planning to double cross the Daleks and conquer the Milky Way. Odd he didn’t just tell Space Security that that was the plan.

Probably because he didn't seem inclined to institute his double-cross until AFTER the Daleks had wiped out the whole of humanity bar his chosen fifty. (I may be relying too heavily on the novelisation here, but let's face it, the poor books were valiantly ATTEMPTING to make sense of the mess we got on-screen...)

With Chen gone I did wonder what happened to the conspiracy. I assumed it remained unknown and that a new guardian was chosen and the system moved on.

Surely the conspiracy would have leaked sooner or later, the SSS are already investigating the Dalek resurgence, there are loads of people in on the Evil Plan and several dead bodies to explain, not to mention Mavic's own mysterious disappearance, oh and the deaths of numerous galactic dictators...

So Chen thought his chosen fifty people could drive combined forces of the Daleks and the outer galaxies out of the Milky Way and then become it’s ruler with 50 people? I know the old show often didn’t get scales right or grasp size properly but that’s totally impossible even by old Who standards.

Yeah it probably would have done, though even with the agents dead the conspiracy prob wouldn’t have come out if the tape wasn’t found. Cause all the deaths show is that the SSS had a few traitors and the Daleks were misbehaving in our galaxy. Without Chen’s presence there is little to tie them to the conspiracy. Presumably finding Cory’s message on Brett made the SSS wonder why an alleged traitor was trying to warn Earth and exactly how he’d returned from Kemble where Daleks were suspected in Chen’s own spaceship

So Chen thought his chosen fifty people could drive combined forces of the Daleks and the outer galaxies out of the Milky Way and then become it’s ruler with 50 people?

He thought his fifty could seize control of the Time Destructor, after which the universe would be their oyster.

Providing none of 'em had been too attached to the rest of their species, of course, or were capable of feeling GUILT, or didn't enjoy their new reducing-planets-to-dust hobby as much as they'd expected...

(Come to think of it I didn't quite get round to finishing volume II of the novelisation, maybe it'll come up with some blinding revelation that makes sense of this all...)

Presumably finding Cory’s message on Brett made the SSS wonder why an alleged traitor was trying to warn Earth and exactly how he’d returned from Kemble where Daleks were suspected in Chen’s own spaceship

It WOULD be fantastic if Mavic Chen was unmasked as the greatest traitor in human history just because of his flash motor...

Even the idea that these 50 could gain control of the time destructor seems unlikely. Against the Dalek flagship with an entire fleet backing it, good luck.

And the time destructor didn’t seem to impressive. It could only destroy one planet.

Don’t forget Chen coming back in a different spaceship to the one he left in. I’m surprised he was able to shake off his security and bodyguard, you’d have thought they wouldn’t let him out of their sight,

Even the idea that these 50 could gain control of the time destructor seems unlikely. Against the Dalek flagship with an entire fleet backing it, good luck.

Ah, but the brilliant cunning* of the plan is, all the Dalek fleet would be off invading the Solar System, leaving the Time Destructor on Kembel all-but unprotected...

And the time destructor didn’t seem to impressive. It could only destroy one planet.

Well, one at a time, trouble is Terry Nation never did quite grasp how BIG a galaxy is...

Don’t forget Chen coming back in a different spaceship to the one he left in

OF COURSE I forgot about that!

I’m surprised he was able to shake off his security and bodyguard, you’d have thought they wouldn’t let him out of their sight

These are the kind of people who missed a Dalek invasion of the galaxy because they were watching a sports match and not looking at the flashing emergency light...

*I exaggerate slightly. Well, quite a lot.

Except they say just before the Doc steals the Time Destructor but it was due to be placed in the lead ship. And it makes sense, no point chasing the stupid thing’s power core across all of time and space just to leave it at home.

Nah the destructor burned itself out destroying Kemble. Granted the Doc may have over turned it’s setting up too high but it still used all it’s power up very quickly. It can’t have managed more than another two or three,

Tbf it was the civilian communication staff who missed the message because they seem to think super secret agents will always call in on schedule. The SSS seems more on the ball.

they say just before the Doc steals the Time Destructor but it was due to be placed in the lead ship

*Sigh*

Possibly dear Mavic and his Chosen Fifty were blissfully unaware of this flaw in their Cunning Plan...?

They probably assumed the Daleks would leave the Time Destructor on Kembel and hollow it out and drive it round the universe...or something...

And it makes sense, no point chasing the stupid thing’s power core across all of time and space just to leave it at home.

Well, I suppose it depends on whether or not it had a long range and good guidance system...

Nah the destructor burned itself out destroying Kemble. Granted the Doc may have over turned it’s setting up too high but it still used all it’s power up very quickly

Oh.

I always assumed that meddling Doctor did something drastic to it, but the transcript annoyingly backs you up on this.

Geez, to wait fifty years for a WORKING Time Destructor may be accounted a misfortune, to wait fifty years for an all-but-useless one smacks of carelessness...

Tbf it was the civilian communication staff who missed the message because they seem to think super secret agents will always call in on schedule. The SSS seems more on the ball.

If the SSS was more on the ball they wouldn't go round shooting each other or contracting out their emergency messages to sports-loving civilian communication staff and they WOULD notice that Mavic Chen is a) insane, b) evil and c) incredibly stupid.

Nice to know evil is really stupid no matter what form it comes in.

Maybe Steven throwing the destructor into reverse used up it’s power too quickly.

I bet it was a political decision to contract out SSS’s communications, maybe Chen did it deliberately to weaken them. Yeah SSS aren’t great on their communication skills but maybe Bret and Sarah just didn’t get on, Sarah’s co agent was genuinely shocked when he saw she’d killed Bret, you image he’d have listened.

Nice to know evil is really stupid no matter what form it comes in.

Well, not ALWAYS, the Master's quite smart, at least when she's female.

Maybe Steven throwing the destructor into reverse used up it’s power too quickly.

Steven threw the Destructor into reverse?!

Dammit, how come you can remember all this stuff and I can't?

I still think Roger Delgado is the smartest master. Both new series masters are very unstable.

I have Daleks Master plan on CD. Got it for my 17th (I think) birthday too many years ago. As I don’t have many on CD and I often listen to audio books that means I’ve heard it a lot. Plus I’m good at remembering details like that

When Davros killed the Supremo shouldn’t the Supremo have shouted “infamy, infamy. They’ve all got it infamy”

They were doing Ancient Rome in this story lol

At the start of I Davros after about 950 years of war there are lots of toxins on the battlefield but the rest of Skaro seems not too bad. Then by the end the tiny war between two cities has poisoned the entire world and wiped out almost all animals. That doesn’t seem very likely even with the limited atomic shelling they seem to be managing. Or were there other cities fighting? The story gives a tiny mention to other cities in one line. Did they all nuke each other properly?

Surely Davros’s tanks could have swung the war in the Kaled’s favour. And blowing up the Thal’s huge rocket base should have finished them considering how much it cost.

Why does the military youth riot after Calcula’s death? They have no reason to believe it was political infighting especially with an apparent Thal spy to blame. Or are they demanding the supremo launch some mad attack on the Thals out of revenge?

were there other cities fighting? The story gives a tiny mention to other cities in one line. Did they all nuke each other properly?

Oh my god, there WERE? Well spotted. They MUST have destroyed each other, the two adorably-side-by-side-with-secret-tunnels-between-'em-for-easy-wheelchair-access cities were DEFINITELY the only ones by the time Tom graced that stupid planet with his presence...

Or are they demanding the supremo launch some mad attack on the Thals out of revenge?

That sounds reasonable.

Well, reasonable-by-Kaled-Nazi-Youth standards, anyway.

I forget exactly how they phrase it, I think they say something like “the capital” giving the idea there were other cities. They defiantly said something in the first episode about there being more.

After 1000 years of war the Thals and Kaleds were remarkably reasonable. They mention they still have diplomatic visits in the time of the first two stories.

Still the riots didn’t quite make sense to me and frankly should have been easily surpressed, I mean it’s only the Kaled Nazi youth and they say birth rate is low.

New Who seems to imply a 'rel' is a second rather than a minute.

Well, a rel is slightly different from a second (I think I read somewhere)

One can't help but feel that JODIE!'s 'Now, must remember, how long's a rel?' in Resolution was referencing this controversy.

A rel was a second when it first appeared in Dalek’s Invasion of Earth 2150 AD (the movie) or at least it was roughly a second so that’s what I always took it as, I think IDavros was the odd one out with its implication that it was a minute, although considering how evil Davros was it wouldn’t be out of character to give someone a 30 second break.

Yeo I thought of this discussion when they said it in Resolution. We are sure Chris isn’t reading this aren’t we? That’s the third time this season they’ve picked up on something we said

A rel was a second when it first appeared in Dalek’s Invasion of Earth 2150 AD (the movie)

And the Doctor was some Earth Scientist called Doctor Who! I wouldn't accept the word of those movies if they told me the sun rose in the east!

considering how evil Davros was it wouldn’t be out of character to give someone a 30 second break.

We'll just have to go with that explanation.

We are sure Chris isn’t reading this aren’t we? That’s the third time this season they’ve picked up on something we said

Ooh, what were the other two?

Yeah but the movie is where the rel’s came from. Big Finish and the TV show stole from them not the other way round. So the movie must be right as it’s the primary source

The other two times were this Doc not seeming to grasp the Doc’s weapon policy and acknowledging that she shouldn’t have had a problem with Ryan blasting the robots. And then forgetting Yaz is a Policewoman or is even on the show sometimes. Although the entire internet has been saying that about Yaz so it’s not surprising he noticed that.

Yeah but the movie is where the rel’s came from.

Oh.

THAT'S just one of those 'facts'...sorry, facts...that my brain simply can't cope with so just shunted out of my head in record time.

Although the entire internet has been saying that about Yaz so it’s not surprising he noticed that.

Yeah, sadly I doubt either of these are exactly exclusive to Nitcentral.

Still you have to wonder, this if an old and public site. Chris has been a fan for decades. You wonder if any writers have dared pop in over the years.

Yeah, and then they whinge about my reviews on their private writers site. On which I happen to have a spy. Very few of 'em actually have the guts to come here and say anything to my face, so kudos to Nick Walters.

Of course when it comes to proper TV writers rather than novel ones...see Rodney's comment in Twice Upon a Time on 6th October last year.

Wow really? If only more TV writers came here, I mean listening to us could hardly make the show worse could it?

I just checked out Rodney’s comment, tbf that was a good joke about Master Plan from Paul. What does he mean long in the tooth, if he’s been on here long enough to spot that he should ave picked up that some of us are too young to have seen classic Who the first time round.

listening to us could hardly make the show worse could it?

I dunno, I wouldn't want anyone to take much notice of some of the stuff I said, like in 2003-4 when I actually wanted Paul McGann back as the Doctor...

(Come to think of it I STILL want Paul McGann back as the Doctor, he was superb, we were ROBBED, but can you IMAGINE if RTG had actually LISTENED to me and denied us our Eccleston...

...Come to think of it I'd've been spared a broken heart and it's not as if I'd ever have dreamt that we COULD have had a greater Doctor than Tom Baker...)

What does he mean long in the tooth

I think he's sneering at the board for lasting so long.

Which is pretty weird when you think about it.

if he’s been on here long enough to spot that he should ave picked up that some of us are too young to have seen classic Who the first time round.

You're WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT!

Would we have missed Eccleston that much, be only did one season and collapsed the ratings, if he’d started what’s happening with the show now may well have happened in 2005 and ended it for good.

I think we can thank Phil for the board lasting so long, of course it helps that Who is still in production, I think that makes us unique on the board these days, makes Who the most popular thread.

Didn’t you realise I was young? I mentioned that I saw most of the colour classic episodes on UK Gold, my first exposure was to a novelisation and I’m sure I’ve spoken up for young people a few times lol. Why do you think my username is Danny 21. That was my age when I first started posting in 2009

Would we have missed Eccleston that much, be only did one season and collapsed the ratings

Every Doctor 'collapses' the ratings with their second episode, it's traditional.

if he’d started what’s happening with the show now may well have happened in 2005 and ended it for good.

Nonsense, two more series of Who had been commissioned straight after Rose, plus we had RUSSELL T GOD writing our episodes not Chris Chibnall, humanity's raison d'etre was as safe as it had ever been, the only thing that drove a dagger into the heart of our Glorious Resurrection In Undreamed-Of Triumph was Christopher sodding Eccleston stabbing us in the back.

OK, that's a slightly mixed metaphor but you get the picture.

of course it helps that Who is still in production, I think that makes us unique on the board these days, makes Who the most popular thread.

We were ALWAYS the most popular thread, even when Who was dead and rotting and some of the Lesser Programmes were rubbing salt into our wounds by still being ALIVE.

Didn’t you realise I was young?

At first it was subconscious but now I'm pretty sure I'm DELIBERATELY avoiding thinking about people's ages, my own included.

Of course, it doesn't help when Nitcentrallers queue up to tell me they're OVER FIFTY, that sort of shocking information DOES stick in the mind whether I want it to or not.

I mentioned that I saw most of the colour classic episodes on UK Gold

That doesn't necessarily make you a child of TSLABYOD, you could have been old enough to have started watching, say, the late Davison Era as a six-year-old child and then seen the GOOD stuff on UK Gold.

my first exposure was to a novelisation

Doesn't help with the age thing, the novelisations have been around a very, very long time.

Why do you think my username is Danny 21

I put about as much thought into YOUR username as my own, i.e. none whatsoever.

Eccleston was still collapsing his ratings by the season finale though, I mean Daleks in the preview and everything and the country said “nah”.

It might not have lasted past those two more seasons though. Just like Jodie he started strong enough to be guaranteed another shot but if his Christmas special had tanked RTD may well have been forced to make changes. I.E less leaving the Dalek invasion to have Rose chat with her mum. Chibnal is probably being taught a very similar lesson right now lol. I agree though RTD was a more competent writer than Chibnal. I disliked what RTD did to the show but at least his episodes remembered to finish their plots. Well mostly Adam was a glaring exception precisely because they didn’t used to leave whacking great plot holes at the end back then.

Yeah I suppose it seems obvious to me but the clues weren’t exactly definitive. It also doesn’t help that I’m rather distainful of the modern style of new Who and have said as much countless times. That was my entry to this site after all

if his Christmas special had tanked RTD may well have been forced to make changes. I.E less leaving the Dalek invasion to have Rose chat with her mum.

But that was the highlight of the Grand Finale!

MICKEY: Have you tried that new pizza place down Minto Road?
JACKIE: What's it selling?
MICKEY: Pizza.

Chibnal is probably being taught a very similar lesson right now lol.

If Chibnall DOES learn some lessons - more JODIE!, fewer Strays, more experienced writers, less writing-episodes-yourself, fewer years off all the sodding time - we'll all be JUST FINE.

Adam was a glaring exception precisely because they didn’t used to leave whacking great plot holes at the end back then.

Adam wasn't a plot-hole, he just has to keep his head down. Literally and figuratively.

Yeah I’m afraid I didn’t view that as a highlight, and judging by the FB page not many other people did either.

You’re right Chibnal needs to learn those lessons. He also needs to learn that never seen barely mentioned dads showing up out of the blue and talking to characters we don’t really care about can’t carry half an episode.

But Adam could never keep his head down enough to hide the Chip. The comic they eventually made showed this. He had to hide in his house and the only reason he didn’t starve to death was he used the chip to hack corporations and steal their money. Which he then used to trap the Doc.

All in all leaving someone to make a mess like that was not responsible Doctoring.

He also needs to learn that never seen barely mentioned dads showing up out of the blue and talking to characters we don’t really care about can’t carry half an episode.

Well, they could if they were really Fun Dad.

But whatshisface is no Wilf.

But Adam could never keep his head down enough to hide the Chip. The comic they eventually made showed this.

Oh, you don't want to go round believing COMICS.

Just believing TV, audios and novels is enough to drive you insane, and I need hardly point out that I'm speaking from personal experience, here.

He had to hide in his house and the only reason he didn’t starve to death was he used the chip to hack corporations and steal their money.

Blimey, he's never heard of doing a bit of online work and earning some money and ordering groceries over the internet?

All in all leaving someone to make a mess like that was not responsible Doctoring.

It was a hell of a lot more responsible Doctoring than abandoning him in 200,000 or letting him continue rampaging around the universe in the TARDIS (WHY HIM! WHY HIM AND NOT MEEEEEEEEEEE!) or 'curing' him of his chip (assuming that's even possible) to avoid him facing up to the consequences of his own actions.

Yeah well no one could ever accuse Chibnal of writing fun characters.

Audios and comics are canon unless contradicted. The 8th Doctor confirmed it remember.

Adam couldn’t do online work, you have to meet people for the interview etc, he just couldn’t risk it.

Kicking him out the Tardis and what the Jagrafrax did to him was consequence enough, and whatever you think he deserved it was grossly irresponsible of the Doc to endanger all of time and space to teach someone a lesson. Especially if the entire reason you’re cross at said person is because they endangered all of time and space. The chip must be removable and tbh if it wasn’t leaving him in the year 200,000 would be more sensible. He’s just another guy there, he became a super villain in the past.

Yeah well no one could ever accuse Chibnal of writing fun characters.

Ouch.

*Long brain-wracking pause*

Look, the robots in Dinosaurs on a Spaceship were great fun. If you're two. I speak from personal experience. (Of watching it with a two-year-old not of being two when it was first on, I mean.)

And Kate is fun if you have a really deadpan, nuking-London kinda sense of humour.

Actually, Rory's dad was a desperate attempt at 'fun' that obviously didn't quite work but - oops - may have accidentally encouraged Chibnall to write another dad.

Audios and comics are canon unless contradicted. The 8th Doctor confirmed it remember.

You know what else I remember? If Eighth Doctor audios are canon that makes Company of Friends canon which makes Benny and Fitz and Izzy canon, which makes the novels and comics canon which rapidly leads to MY HEAD EXPLODING.

McGann DESERVED to die stupidly and pointlessly just for SAYING that!

Also, WHAT ABOUT LIV AND HELEN YOU GIT? And all the future Companions cos Big Finish are gonna wring DECADES more out of McGann and when he finally dies to escape them they'll just recast and carry on...

Adam couldn’t do online work, you have to meet people for the interview etc, he just couldn’t risk it.

If that's true, which I doubt, then put a large sticking-plaster on your forehead, stick a hat over it and go for the damned interview then. It's not rocket-science.

it was grossly irresponsible of the Doc to endanger all of time and space to teach someone a lesson

He DIDN'T endanger all of time and space. At least, not any more than s/he does just by BREATHING, s/he's really the ULTIMATE in Butterfly Effects.

leaving him in the year 200,000 would be more sensible. He’s just another guy there, he became a super villain in the past.

Oh, like he wouldn't have become a Dalek-serving super-villain THERE.

Here’s to countless more Big Finish audios.

Adam was almost certain to be discovered. Even if he did hide in the house eventually he was going to get sick and die, he’s die without being seen by a Doctor so they’d have to have an inquest and a post mortem. They’d find the chip. That’s endangers all of time and space.

And like I said he nearly helped the master destroyed the universe in his vendetta against the Doctor, he did kidnap all the previous Doctors and companions. You can’t call that’s. job well done.

Here’s to countless more Big Finish audios.

*Pitiful sobbing noises*

Adam was almost certain to be discovered. Even if he did hide in the house eventually he was going to get sick and die, he’s die without being seen by a Doctor so they’d have to have an inquest and a post mortem. They’d find the chip. That’s endangers all of time and space.

In what way? UNIT, Torchwood et al are well used to clearing up alien tech. But not that competent, so unlikely to reverse-engineer a not-working chip from hundreds of thousands of years in the future.

he nearly helped the master destroyed the universe in his vendetta against the Doctor, he did kidnap all the previous Doctors and companions. You can’t call that’s. job well done.

No, I call that Comic-Strip Nonsenses, Pah!

You never know they may be comedies. Or up there with I Davros. There must be another classic BBC series left they can rip off. The Good Life lol

Well Doc seemed to think the chip was reversible. I maintain it was sloppy and hypercritical of him

Danny, I have an idea. Since you seem to like Adam so much, why don't you do for him what I did for Vince. Write a story that gives Adam a happy outcome.

Heck, take another page from me and set him up with a girlfriend, either a pre-existing character, or make one up.

If I can do for Vince, you can do it for Adam.

There must be another classic BBC series left they can rip off. The Good Life lol

EXCELLENT idea, Big Finish are more than welcome to sequelise every non-Who-related programme in human history as far as I'm concerned.

Well Doc seemed to think the chip was reversible.

What he actually SAID was 'If you show that head to anyone, they'll dissect you in seconds.' He didn't imply for a moment that they'd find anything USABLE inside Adam's skull.

I maintain it was sloppy and hypercritical of him

The Doctor has an entire universe (occasionally several entire universes) to look after. Of course s/he's sloppy, galaxies could get wiped out if she hangs around to tidy up loose ends on one obscure planet. And of course s/he's hypocritical, it's the only way you can live with being a decent peace-inclined person who just happens to genocide the bad guys to protect others A LOT.

If I can do for Vince, you can do it for Adam.

Now you mention it, Adam and Vince have a lot in common, both weak characters who paid a very heavy price for a moment of corruption.

You just get the feeling that Vince repented of his bribe-taking (there's just no way I'd've burnt all that lovely cash) whilst Adam didn't learn a •••• thing from his and his only regret was getting caught.

I was more thinking more Big Finish could do Doctor Who meets the Good Life. They did it for I Clavdivs, Dads Army, Star Trek, Yes Minister, Blackadder and Top Gear lol

It’s not about liking Adam it’s about a bout of hypocrisy worthy of 6 on his worst day and a plot hole so large it’s worthy of Chibnal. As we see from the comic the chip is compatible so it’s crazy irresponsible, even something as simple as the metal and super future plastic it’s made of can change history.

It was stupid and only put in to shill Rose because RTD had his Companions are special thing. And it wasn’t exactly the strongest message as Rose killed hundreds the week before and 5 billion the next week.

I was more thinking more Big Finish could do Doctor Who meets the Good Life.

Nooooo no no no no, then I'd have to LISTEN to it.

Big Finish's future DEFINITELY lies, in my totally unbiased honest opinion, in doing lots more Lesser-Programme-Stuff and lots less Whoy goodness.

I mean, ATA Girl has just been nominated for the BBC Audio Drama Awards 2019, it's a sign from the gods I tell you!

They did it for I Clavdivs, Dads Army, Star Trek, Yes Minister, Blackadder and Top Gear lol

Oh-kay, so Yes Minister was Time in Office and Top Gear was Max Warp and I Claudius was Holy Terror and Dad's Army was The Middle - so what did Star Trek and Blackadder get?

As we see from the comic the chip is compatible

How can it possibly be compatible? It's from 198,000 years in the future.

It was stupid and only put in to shill Rose because RTD had his Companions are special thing. And it wasn’t exactly the strongest message as Rose killed hundreds the week before and 5 billion the next week.

You know, you...might actually have a point there.

I s'pose the difference is Rose actually APOLOGISED and learnt from her oops-there-goes-humanity mistake. Whereas Adam refused to accept responsibility and just kept making excuses.

Also, the Doctor was in love with Rose but not Adam which seems perfectly reasonable to ME.

Adam and Vince have a lot in common, both weak characters who paid a very heavy price for a moment of corruption.

I think that "corruption" is a bit strong a term in the case of both men. Both were seduced by temptation and did something that they shouldn't have done. Does that make them corrupt?



It’s not about liking Adam it’s about a bout of hypocrisy worthy of 6 on his worst day and a plot hole so large it’s worthy of Chibnal.

But, Danny, you've moaned about Adam for nearly a decade now. And, let's face it, dude, the odds of his return to the show are zilch. RTD never brought him back, the Moff never brought him back, and I'll lay you credit to beans that Chibbers isn't going to either. As far as the show in concerned, the case of Adam is a closed book.

It was the same with Vince for me, the odds of his return were zilch (for one thing, the actor who played him, John Abbott, is now in his early 70's and is retired from acting). So I took matters into my own hands, and my Timelost stories were born.

Yeah, they're not canon, but since I was using a character that is never likely to appear on the show again, I didn't have to worry about continuity stepping on my toes. As far as I'm concerned, Vince is alive and well, in our time, living a wonderful life with Sally Sparrow.

So, why don't you do the same with Adam. Write a Fan Fiction that somehow gets him out of the situation the show left him in. You clearly do like Adam, Danny, and this is a good solution to vent your anger at the show for treating him they way it did.

So, let those creative juices flow, my friend. If I can save Vince, you can save Adam.

I was actually thinking of I Davros for I Claudius and Heros of Sontag for Dads army but yep those stories too.

Bang Bang A Boom was Star Trek, with a dash of Space 1999 and the Kingmakers was Blackadder.

In fact as the One Doctor was a parody of the show you could almost call it Doctor Who meets Doctor Who lol.

You’re right the chip shouldn’t be compatible but it was. I suppose as it connected by thought it must have helped.

Rose didn’t apologise for setting the Dalek loose. She had a go at the Doc when he tried to stop it. And she only apologised for saving her dad after she’d calmed down hours later. Adam did sort of appologise without 5 billion people being dead. Also the chip caused no harm at the end of the day. It didn’t matter at all that the Jagrafax found out he was a Time Lord despite Doc’s complaining. Everyone and their mother knows he’s a Time Lord.

I’ve gone on about Adam for close to a decade because what the Doc did was stupid and it never stops being stupid no matter how much time passes. Therefore it’s a handy stick to beat him with on occasion. I know he’s not coming back to the show, killing him off in a comic kind of showed that. Also they’d have to pay RTD royalties.

I mean even the comic was kind of on my side in that it shows the chaos that ensues due to Doc’s hypocrisy. I’m not even saying don’t kick him out, just remove the chip first.

Also they’d have to pay RTD royalties.

Yeah, that's true, RTD created Adam, he owns the rights, so if the show wanted to use him again, they'd have to fork money over to RTD.

Same applied to Vince, only in this case, they would have to pay Terrence Dicks.

However, that does not apply to Fan Fiction, so go and write those Adam stories, Danny. Find a way to get him out of the pickle the Doctor left him in.

Vince was in a worse situation than Adam was, yet I managed to get him out of it. So, surely, you can do the same.

So get to work on the Adam Mitchell Chronicles (or any title you can come up with). I'll be there to read them.

And, let's face it, dude, the odds of his return to the show are zilch. RTD never brought him back, the Moff never brought him back, and I'll lay you credit to beans that Chibbers isn't going to either.

Big Finish, however, have brought him back - see Ninth Doctor audio The Other Side.

since I was using a character that is never likely to appear on the show again, I didn't have to worry about continuity stepping on my toes

Didn't Beast of Fang Rock trample all over your toes?

I was actually thinking of I Davros for I Claudius and Heros of Sontag for Dads army

Tee hee - Big Finish are REPEATEDLY ripping off other stories!

Not that I'm complaining, they're all the better for it.

Rose didn’t apologise for setting the Dalek loose. She had a go at the Doc when he tried to stop it.

DID she? When?

I thought she was INCREDIBLY understanding about the whole LOCKING HER UP WITH A DALEK thing.

And she only apologised for saving her dad after she’d calmed down hours later.

OK, so Eccy did actually have to TELL her to apologise. But a mistake made for love is a lot more forgivable than a mistake made for profit.

Adam did sort of appologise without 5 billion people being dead. Also the chip caused no harm at the end of the day. It didn’t matter at all that the Jagrafax found out he was a Time Lord despite Doc’s complaining. Everyone and their mother knows he’s a Time Lord.

All true, but the apology only came AFTER he'd tried to wriggle out of it AND refused a second chance to confess:

ADAM: I'm all right now. Much better. And I've got the key. Look, it's. It all worked out for the best, didn't it? You know, it's not actually my fault, because you were in charge... Blimey. I thought you were going to chuck me out of an airlock.
DOCTOR: Is there something else you want to tell me?
ADAM: No. What do you mean?
(The Doctor picks up the answering machine.)
DOCTOR: The archive of Satellite Five. One second of that message could've changed the world...
ADAM: I just wanted to help.
DOCTOR: You were helping yourself.
ADAM: And I'm sorry. I've said I'm sorry, and I am, I really am, but you can't just leave me like this... I want to come with you.

Didn't Beast of Fang Rock trample all over your toes?

Nope. Beast takes place in 1969, my stories take place now. Besides, as you well know, Emily, my stories actually acknowledge the events of Beast.


All true, but the apology only came AFTER he'd tried to wriggle out of it AND refused a second chance to confess:

ADAM: I'm all right now. Much better. And I've got the key. Look, it's. It all worked out for the best, didn't it? You know, it's not actually my fault, because you were in charge... Blimey. I thought you were going to chuck me out of an airlock.
DOCTOR: Is there something else you want to tell me?
ADAM: No. What do you mean?
(The Doctor picks up the answering machine.)
DOCTOR: The archive of Satellite Five. One second of that message could've changed the world...
ADAM: I just wanted to help.
DOCTOR: You were helping yourself.
ADAM: And I'm sorry. I've said I'm sorry, and I am, I really am, but you can't just leave me like this... I want to come with you.

I guess Vince taking that bribe doesn't look so bad now, Emily. At least it didn't threaten to screw up history.

Besides, as you well know, Emily, my stories actually acknowledge the events of Beast.

To be absolutely honest I DON'T remember that but I think that's more because I don't remember anything about Beast rather than about your stories.

I guess Vince taking that bribe doesn't look so bad now, Emily. At least it didn't threaten to screw up history.

Looking good compared to Adam is not a great sign of character.

As I said, all Vince was asked to do is send an e-mail on the boss's computer. Hardly a capital crime here.

On the other hand, Adam's actions threatened to screw up future history.

Quite a difference here.

Loath as I am to give credence to Adam-loving Nine-bashers, Adam didn't REALLY do anything to screw up future history, foiling his fiendish scheme was as easy as waving a sonic screwdriver at an answerphone, and the Editor/Jagrafess would have tortured any info they got out of Adam out of Rose/the Doctor in another five minutes anyway.

Still Vince must have been TEMPTED by how much that money was worth. He could get a whole NEW scarf and beanie.... ;)

Rose had a go at the Doc when he was about to blow it up with a massive gun, she didn’t bother saying that it was feeling regret until she’d guilt tripped him for trying to stop the alien killing machine.

Yes it’s a rubbish apology but no one is dead and nobody got hurt. Rose can’t make that claim in fact as the Doc tried to leave her behind in the 1980s to mess up history after getting cross at her for messing up history it seems the 9th Doctor was trying to make a habit of it. Maybe it’s just as well he only did a season, any longer and he’d accidentally make Sooty king of England or something.

Maybe that’s what’s gone wrong with the world these days, the Doc has stupidly done one too hypocritical history messing up things to punish people for trying to mess up history and reality is starting to collapse.

the Doc tried to leave her behind in the 1980s to mess up history after getting cross at her for messing up history

DOCTOR: All right, I'm sorry. I wasn't really going to leave you on your own.
ROSE: I know.

Maybe it’s just as well he only did a season, any longer and he’d accidentally make Sooty king of England or something.

A small price to pay for more Ecclestonian happiness.

Of course, I'm a republican anyway, plus would probably consider a thermonuclear war to be a small price to pay for more Ecclestonian happiness...

Sooty again?

I wonder if anyone called Queen Xanxia "Xanxy"? And I wonder how long that person lived afterwards?

Ah, I was assuming he was referring to Sooty the glove puppet (sock puppet? Oh, whatever) but even if it WAS Sutekh the Destroyer it would STILL be, if not a small price to pay, a price WORTH paying to get in some more Ecclestonian rapture before becoming dust and darkness.

I loved the Sooty Show. They made Sooty and Sweep and Soo all PC in the recent revival - the old Soo was too "mumsy" apparently. Gah!

Yep Sooty the glove puppet. I think he should have been the supremo as well lol

Are we talking I, Davros Supremo (who might as well be a glove puppet for all the use he was against Davros) or galaxy-leading Morbius-defeating Warmonger Supremo (in which case a glove puppet would probably have been more convincing in the role than the Fifth Doctor)?

I was thinking I Davros Supremo. He did stand up to Davrosin the end, it’s not his fault that there was a ridiculous plot twist and the guards were cool with Davros’s assassination of the council.

Luckily Sooty is immune to radiation and therefore wouldn’t take the aneurism causing tablets, also he can’t get an aneurism. He’ll stand up to Davros no trouble. Davros probably doesn’t like water pistols much either lol

I was thinking I Davros Supremo. He did stand up to Davrosin the end, it’s not his fault that there was a ridiculous plot twist and the guards were cool with Davros’s assassination of the council.

Ah, fair enough, your memories of whatever-the-hell-happened are obviously a lot clearer than mine.

Luckily Sooty is immune to radiation

I know mercifully little of such things (other than the Bandrils, the Drashigs, and of course the Scottish Falsetto Sock Puppet Theatre) but I suspect whoever's hand was up Sooty's arse wouldn't be quite so immune to radiation...

Forgive my ignorance, but who the heck is Sooty?

Sooty the glove puppet. Star of a British children's show for decades. His catchphrase "Izzy Wizzy, Let's get busy!" could have been used by Eleven (the Doctor incarnation, not Jane Ives of Stranger Things0.

Oh ••••••• Christ, I'd forgotten Izzy Wizzy, let's get busy - not (obviously) that I ever WATCHED Sooty but he was just one of those ubiquitous pieces of British culture that got EVERYWHERE, even into MY head - he had a friend/relative called Sweep, didn't he...

...Um, anyway - I, Davros -

- Yeah, can't really think of anything else to say about I, Davros, at 144 (145 now) posts it's been a helluvalot better-explored than any other audio ever...

Well it is a long audio aren’t the episodes longer than a Doctor Who story,

It’s weird listening to the extras where Davros and Nyder’s actors reflect sombrely on the nature of evil and absolute power.

And Terry Molly gets in a few cheeky digs at Tony Blair and does an impression of him lol

Ah, I have mercifully few memories of the CD Extras but my post of September 28 2016 suggests I was less enamoured of 'em than you, especially the way everyone keeps saying y'know ALL THE BLOODY TIME.

I hadn’t noticed that but. Come on who doesn’t like a good bit of satire delivered by Davros

'Meet you in thirty rels' - New Who seems to imply a 'rel' is a second rather than a minute

Thanks to a helpful countdown, we can add War Master: Anti-Genesis: Shockwave to the a-rel-sounds-exactly-like-a-second list.

Meet you in thirty rels' - New Who seems to imply a 'rel' is a second rather than a minute

Thanks to a helpful countdown, we can add War Master: Anti-Genesis: Shockwave to the a-rel-sounds-exactly-like-a-second list.

Aaaaand now Susan's War: The Uncertain Shore has strolled in to screw everything up yet again. 2,000 rels is the record before brain disintegration, a robotised Ogron proudly informs us. A robotised Ogron who's sure as hell spent more than half an hour invading this planet.

Meet you in thirty rels' - New Who seems to imply a 'rel' is a second rather than a minute

Aaand the Daleks in Doomsday helpfully order 'Rewind the image by nine rels' - which when I timed it seemed to be approximately seven seconds...

'Rewind the image by nine rels' - which when I timed it seemed to be approximately seven seconds...

Yup, the rel countdown in The Churchill Years: Living History seemed a-bit-shorter-than-a-second.

Just what were the Thals up to in the Davros Mission? Send a psychiatrist to psychobabble at Davros to pursuance him to use the Movellan virus, rather than just doing it themselves. Did they really think that was going to work and why?

The Daleks were remarkably tolerant of the comedy double act considering.

I don’t know why this story is bundled in with I Davros as it doesn’t fit with it. The framing device of I Davros is him in a Skaro cell as the Daleks decide if he’s fit to lead them. In Mission they were taking him back to exterminate him and he’s made leader almost immediately.

Just what were the Thals up to in the Davros Mission? Send a psychiatrist to psychobabble at Davros to pursuance him to use the Movellan virus, rather than just doing it themselves

Yeah, one can't help but sympathise with Davros when he says 'Spare me your mediocre attempts at psycho-analysis.'

I almost felt a bit sorry for Davros, between the Thal psychiatrist and the Daleks torturing him it made for very uncomfortable listening.

I don't even REMEMBER the Daleks torturing him, just the Thals psychoanalysing him...if anything would push you to decide to destroy every universe ever, it would be THAT.

The Daleks lifted him out of his chair, this caused him to be in agony and the lack of his main life support would apparently cause him to slip into a vegetative state, though he doesn’t thanks to keeping focussed.

Listening to the Daleks treating someone that way, who is effectively disabled, is more than a little uncomfortable

Daleks are not the kind of species we should expect to respect the rights of disabled people.

And THE DOCTOR was happy to nick Davros's chair and leave him flopping around on the floor in Witch's Familiar...

I know we shouldn’t expect much of the Daleks, or the Doctor any more. Still it was very uncomfortable listening.

{the lack of his main life support would apparently cause him to slip into a vegetative state, though he doesn’t thanks to keeping focussed.

Wait, WHAT?

If THAT'S all it takes why was he flopping around like there's no tomorrow in Genesis?

And THE DOCTOR was happy to nick Davros's chair and leave him flopping around on the floor in Witch's Familiar...

I know we shouldn’t expect much of the Daleks, or the Doctor any more. Still it was very uncomfortable listening.

Frankly I'm a LOT more comfortable seeing the Doctor kick Davros out of his life-support chair than I am seeing the Doctor decide to commit suicide in order to comfort Davros on his death-bed WHAT THE HELL CAPALDIDOC!

The Daleks keep him plugged into some limited life support to keep him alive. Also this is a long time after Genesis, it’s entirely possible he’s had his life support and cybernetic implants improved since then. Skaro wasn’t as advanced as interstellar civilisation so there’s lots of potential for upgrades.

There were a lot of problems with Witches familiar.

New Who seems to imply a 'rel' is a second rather than a minute

Aaaaand now even THE DOCTOR has joined in the Great Rel Debate: Tennant in Dalek Universe 3: 'How long's a rel? I can never remember...'

Aaaaand now even THE DOCTOR has joined in the Great Rel Debate: Tennant in Dalek Universe 3: 'How long's a rel? I can never remember...'

It seems very much like a second in Journey's End.

Aaaaand now even THE DOCTOR has joined in the Great Rel Debate: Tennant in Dalek Universe 3: 'How long's a rel? I can never remember...'

It seems very much like a second in Journey's End.

And a lot longer than a second in War Doctor: Battlegrounds. Maybe it changed meaning at some point, like the British billion?

*Sigh* We have a definitive answer to our rel problem.

Capaldi in Emancipation of the Daleks:

'Ten Imperial Rels is about thirty seconds.'

Or we WOULD have a definitive answer if not for that pesky word 'Imperial'...

Gallifrey: War Room 1: The Passenger: 'You need to hold that button down for a microspan. I'll tell you when to stop' - oh BLESS, even THE TIME LORDS obviously can't be expected to know how long a microspan is...let alone a rel...

Aaaaand now even THE DOCTOR has joined in the Great Rel Debate: Tennant in Dalek Universe 3: 'How long's a rel? I can never remember...'

It seems very much like a second in Journey's End.

And a lot longer than a second in War Doctor: Battlegrounds. Maybe it changed meaning at some point, like the British billion?

The cartoon version of Evil of the Daleks has helpfully labelled the Dalek bomb countdown dial with 'rels' so they seem like around a second - maybe a tiny bit shorter - IF you consider cartoon-versions-of-real-TV-stories canon...

In episode 1 Calcula says the city iDavros takes place in, and that we later see in Genesis is “one of the few left intact so close to the Thal border”. So not only are there other cities intact along the border, who knows how many more there are further back. Then later there’s just the one. Also why would they not have relocated their government to a city further back from the front line.

They mention the council of 12 is above the house of congress, so Davros wiping out the council wouldn’t solve anything as there is still a branch of the government waiting to take over, and an automatic line of succession would install that he couldn’t interfere with, without tipping his hand.

Davros uses a Thal to make the first Dalek, except episode 3 said Thals mutate differently as they’re different species, so he doesn’t learn anything with that experiment.

Davros is surprised by Thal anatomy at one point, how can they not know it after 1000 years of fighting and centuries more co-existing before that point, even if the pre war records were lost, have they really never had a chance to dissect a dead Thal before.

It’s suggested that the Thals and Kaleds retreat to their respective homelands to end the war, Davros says that won’t work as sooner or later they’ll come into conflict again. Maybe that’s what happened in the original timeline, before Doc got involved, the war sputtered out after the Thal rocket failed with both sides retreating, Davros’s prototype Daleks left Skaro and after centuries of rebuilding the neutromic war happened. Maybe this is also where the events involving Yarvelling and Zolfian were supposed to happen but thanks to Doc interfering in the events of Genesis, they got erased from history.

In episode 1 Calcula says the city iDavros takes place in, and that we later see in Genesis is “one of the few left intact so close to the Thal border”. So not only are there other cities intact along the border, who knows how many more there are further back. Then later there’s just the one.

That kinda makes sense, the war has got REALLY nsaty...

Also why would they not have relocated their government to a city further back from the front line.

You're telling the noble Kaled people to RETREAT?

Davros uses a Thal to make the first Dalek, except episode 3 said Thals mutate differently as they’re different species, so he doesn’t learn anything with that experiment.

Oops.

Davros is surprised by Thal anatomy at one point, how can they not know it after 1000 years of fighting and centuries more co-existing before that point, even if the pre war records were lost, have they really never had a chance to dissect a dead Thal before.

They might have been mutating?

The following episodes don’t have everyone acting as if they’ve only just wiped out almost all of each other’s nations. There’s one brief mention that a wasteland was farm land but I’m sure they said it was longer ago. You would have any new inventions for centuries after that. Davros would have been trying to re-invent the combine harvester, not Daleks. And it’s somewhat unlikely they’d both spare each other’s capitals.

Not so much a retreat as a tactical relocation, it’s not a good idea to have both sides entire leaderships in walking distance of each other.

Davros doesn’t speak as if the Thals have changed from their last records of them. He has only just realised they don’t have a common ancestors for 100 million years. And they should be doing regular autopsies on the Thals throughout the war anyway so they wouldn’t have time to change that much from the last one.

Meet you in thirty rels' - New Who seems to imply a 'rel' is a second rather than a minute

Thanks to a helpful countdown, we can add War Master: Anti-Genesis: Shockwave to the a-rel-sounds-exactly-like-a-second list.

Aaaaand now Susan's War: The Uncertain Shore has strolled in to screw everything up yet again.

War of the Daleks has sensibly/cowardishly decided to avoid the rel and produce lines like 'The Dalek Prime has announced that the trial will begin in four time units' - !

I dunno if the immortal line 'Withdraw to distance of one light-rel' (A Genius for War) casts any light on the how-long-is-a-rel debate...?

Doesn't

Meet you in thirty rels' - New Who seems to imply a 'rel' is a second rather than a minute

Thanks to a helpful countdown, we can add War Master: Anti-Genesis: Shockwave to the a-rel-sounds-exactly-like-a-second list.

Aaaaand now Susan's War: The Uncertain Shore has strolled in to screw everything up yet again.

War Master: Rogue Encounters: Runtime declares that 4000 rels is 60 minutes. I'm taking that as pretty definitive, given that it's 4000 rels/60 minutes until THE PLANET IS BLOWN UP so the Master is unlikely to be careless with his sums. (Also, it's the War Master, so a LOT less careless/stupid than his other incarnations. Not that he seems that way on telly - getting himself killed in a few minutes/rels flat - but as far as the audios are concerned, HE's he one who wipes the floor with River Song (The Diary of River Song Season Five) AND his other selves (Masterful)...)

So it’s that time of year where I listen to it again. When Davros is nearly dying after the attack that cripples him he hears his sister and mother talking to him and Calcula’s voice switches to a Dalek’s. Except this is before he invented them, so that is rather strong evidence that he really was talking to the spirits of his mum and sister, who have knowledge of the future due to being dead.

Also it seems a comedy sketch of all things has retconned this story, or at least the Time War has changed history yet again.

So it's that time of year where I listen to it again

EVERY YEAR?!

When Davros is nearly dying after the attack that cripples him he hears his sister and mother talking to him and Calcula's voice switches to a Dalek's. Except this is before he invented them, so that is rather strong evidence that he really was talking to the spirits of his mum and sister, who have knowledge of the future due to being dead.

Which seems unlikely, given there IS no afterlife (Torchwood: Everything Changes.)

Which seems unlikely, given there IS no afterlife (Torchwood: Everything Changes.)

Torchwood does actually postulate an afterlife. It's described as "nothing" but it's a kind of nothing dimension that has a monster living in it and the dead can (temporarily) come back from it.

Oh god. Yeah, Torchwood messed the whole thing up cos, well, IT'S TORCHWOOD, but I'm just hanging onto 'It just goes black' and 'Oh, my God. There's nothing' and ignoring the monsters moving in the darkness...

Not every year having said that but it’s good so I relisten more than some other audios.

Even Torchwood hedged a bit on the afterlife with some talk about how perhaps people can’t carry knowledge of it back to the land of the living. Doctor Who has avoided coming down one side or the other for obvious reasons.

Doctor Who has avoided coming down one side or the other for obvious reasons.

Though Capaldi's decision to 'go to hell' to look for Danny Pink was deeply, deeply weird.

Just to unhelpfully add to the Great Rel Debate, The War Doctor: The Hybrid's Choice provides us with 'Her respiration rate is low. Five rels between breaths.' The whole rel-is-a-minute thing is looking increasingly...outnumbered.

The whole rel-is-a-minute thing is looking increasingly...outnumbered.

Sadly the whole rel-a-second thing has also been dealt a death-blow: Evil of the Daleks (second) novelisation: 'The Black Dalek scanned the non-conforming unit [i.e. Alpha/Beta/Omega], noting that its inception tag was less than a few rels old.'

The whole rel-is-a-minute thing is looking increasingly...outnumbered.

Sadly the whole rel-a-second thing has also been dealt a death-blow: Evil of the Daleks (second) novelisation: 'The Black Dalek scanned the non-conforming unit [i.e. Alpha/Beta/Omega], noting that its inception tag was less than a few rels old.'

Whilst The Genocide Machine helpfully has an actual rel-countdown...revealing they're about three seconds apiece...

Oh, and Fugitive of the Daleks has blessed us with the lines '773 Dalekanium scale' 'Compute timeline by Earth scale' 'Fifteen Earth minutes'...did even the Daleks get so confused by a length of a rel they invented a whole new means of measuring time...?

did even the Daleks get so confused by a length of a rel they invented a whole new means of measuring time...?

Not according to Eve of the Daleks.

'I arrived 1.93 rels ago' - their concept of a rel is exact to within two decimal places so WHY GODS WHY...