My discussion of Vince in the Fang Rock thread inspired me to start this one. Here are some guest characters that I feel should have lived.

1. Lawrence Scarman (Pyramids Of Mars). I can't fault the poor guy for being concerned about his brother, Marcus. The most tragic thing is that Lawrence almost reached what Marcus, before Sutekh reasserted control. Was Marcus aware that he was murdering his brother (Sutekh would be cruel enough to do something like that). Still, Lawrence was a good man, and he should have survived.

2. Scorby (Seeds Of Doom). One might be surprised to find this character on my list, because he was a thug, who worked for Chase. However, when he realizes what is truly going on, that all of humanity is in danger, he quickly joins the Doctor's side.

3. Vince Hawkins (Horror Of Fang Rock). The inspiration for this list. Vince was a very likable character, and one can really bond with him. Yes, he took a bribe, but come on, it was only to send a message, not to murder someone. Terrence Dicks should have let him live. Someone should have been left to tell the tale of how the Doctor saved the Earth from the Rutans.

4. Thea Ransome (Image Of The Fendahl). The poor woman didn't become the Fendaleen Priestess by choice, Stael and his goons saw to that. While they all did get their comeuppance, the Doctor should have found a way to save Thea too.

5. Aunt Vanessa (Logopolis) Another death that didn't need to happen. She was no threat to the Master, so why did he kill her?

5. Professor Kyle (Earthshock). Did they really need to kill this poor women, considering what she had already gone through? Couldn't she have been one of them that survived in the end.

Mind you, this was during the reign of Eric "Body Count" Saward, when this happened a lot.

6. Most of the guest characters in Warriors Of The Deep. I was not sorry that the two sniveling traitors died, but most of the other characters should have been spared. As I have said, this has Saward's fingerprints all over it, even though Johnny Byrne is credited as writing it.

6. Oscar Botcherby (The Two Doctors). They didn't need to kill this poor bloke either. Couldn't Shockeye have just knocked him out.



So, do you agree with this list? Or do you have any characters you want to add to it? Go for it.

She was no threat to the Master, so why did he kill her?

Osgood was more useful to him/her alive, but she/he still killed her.

Lawrence Scarman

He ignored the Doctor's orders. His interference nearly cost several planets/galaxies - starting with Earth - their lives. Plus his death gave the Doctor one of those rare opportunities to prove how utterly alien he really is.

Scorby

Sexist git deserved to die.

the Doctor should have found a way to save Thea too.

He saved Corby didn't he, saving Thea too would have made the whole Fendahl adventure a lot less epic.

She was no threat to the Master, so why did he kill her?

He has a low boredom threshold.

And she didn't die in vain, Tom got to make that 'Have you seen her?' 'Well, a little of her' joke...

Admittedly in retrospect having an entire TARDIS-full of recently-bereaved Companions was a bit much, but luckily none of 'em seemed to give a •••• about their dear departed...

Professor Kyle

Yeah, OK, you can have her, it's not as if her death made any difference.

Rita. I miss Rita. Of course, it's the very fact that The God Complex had the guts to kill her that lifts it above the usual run. Plus it would have been WEIRD having a god-botherer in the TARDIS (let's face it, Katarina wasn't exactly a spectacular success) but DAMMIT that was one likeable, believable, well-rounded human who should have had YEARS of getting-chased-by-alien-monstrosities and falling-in-love-with-the-Doctor ahead of her...

Lawrence Scarman

He ignored the Doctor's orders. His interference nearly cost several planets/galaxies - starting with Earth - their lives. Plus his death gave the Doctor one of those rare opportunities to prove how utterly alien he really is.

You mean when Sarah took him to task for seemingly not caring that so many had died. One wonder what she would have said had she been at Fang Rock with him.


Scorby

Sexist git deserved to die.

Sarah took Scorby to task about that comment, don't forget.


Professor Kyle

Yeah, OK, you can have her, it's not as if her death made any difference.

Of course, this was the Saward era. Body counts were par for the course by then. As I said, this ended up getting the show taken off the air for more than year.

One wonder what she would have said had she been at Fang Rock with him.

She'd've said 'Doctor you just saved the PLANET, stop kicking yourself about a handful of seedy unpleasant losers who hurled themselves to their own deaths.'

(OK, I'd've said that. SARAH would have said something slightly more...compassionate...but still strongly sympathetic to the idea that the Doc should CHEER THE HELL UP.)

Sarah took Scorby to task about that comment, don't forget.

I'm not forgetting! I just think Scorby deserved to be taken to task by Sarah Jane and then brutally killed for his misogynistic comments.

4. Thea Ransome (Image Of The Fendahl). The poor woman didn't become the Fendaleen Priestess by choice, Stael and his goons saw to that.

Um, wasn't it the Fendahl that saw to that? Thea pretty much is the Fendahl by genetic predestination. That probably didn't come with an opt-out.

WAS it genetic predestination? It's not like HER surname was Fendelman...

She'd've said 'Doctor you just saved the PLANET, stop kicking yourself about a handful of seedy unpleasant losers who hurled themselves to their own deaths.'

Except the Doctor didn't kick himself, which is Rodney's beef with him over this. Emily, I wonder if this had been COLIN, you would be agreeing with Rodney.


I just think Scorby deserved to be taken to task by Sarah Jane and then brutally killed for his misogynistic comments.

He made ONE comment.

Except the Doctor didn't kick himself, which is Rodney's beef with him over this.

But he DID kick himself! I've never SEEN him so gloomy pre-Season Eighteen! Just because he didn't have a Tennant-style orgy of self-recrimination complete with the faces of everyone who's ever died in his name doesn't mean he didn't CARE.

Emily, I wonder if this had been COLIN, you would be agreeing with Rodney.

I'd be thanking non-existent deities for the fact Colin was LOOKING SORRY and reciting a little memorial poem for once instead of making godawful puns about their deaths (and instead of being directly responsible for said deaths himself).

Though OBVIOUSLY I'd be adding the Fang Rock Death-Toll to his charge list, cos I hate him.

I just think Scorby deserved to be taken to task by Sarah Jane and then brutally killed for his misogynistic comments.

He made ONE comment.

*Carefully considers this important point*

I just think Scorby deserved to be taken to task by Sarah Jane and then brutally killed for his misogynistic comment.

So, does anyone else here have a character to add to this list?

I'm sure I've missed many but how about:

The Thal that fell to his death crossing the chasm in The Daleks.
Dortmun in Dalek Invasion Of Earth.
Mr. McDermott in Terror Of The Autons.
George in Black Orchid.
The Castellan in The Five Doctors.
Gwendoline in Ghost Light.

And not really killed per se but I felt sorry for Omega in Arc Of Infinity. Davison's portrayal at the character's end was quite moving.

The Thal that fell to his death crossing the chasm in The Daleks.

Better to go out in a blaze of glory than live your whole life in abject cowardice.

Dortmun in Dalek Invasion Of Earth.

His stubbornness and arrogance •••• near wiped out the Resistance. Plus what better way to go than saving Barbara? (Mind you, the Daleks might not have suspected anyone was around if Dortmun hadn't been yelling for their attention.)

Mr. McDermott in Terror Of The Autons.

And miss 'Please check Mr McDermott's entitlement on termination of employment'?

George in Black Orchid.

Was George the mass-murderer?

The Castellan in The Five Doctors.

He tried to VAPORISE my Doctor in Arc of Infinity. He had it coming.

Gwendoline in Ghost Light.

She sent people to Java. And ENJOYED it.

George in Black Orchid had been tortured and driven mad. Any court would let him off.

Yeah, they would have packed him off to an asylum.

Oscar's death is rather like the casual way that the Doctor dismisses Laurence Scarman's death in Pyramids.

Holmes again, of course, and it's not hard to find other instances from his pen. The Doctor's laughter at the painful death suffered by one of Chang's minions in Talons episode 1 is another example.

Somebody's just died in agony in front of the Doctor and he treats it like a joke? But since that was Baker/Hinchcliffe/Holmes it gets a free pass.

Had it been Baker/JN-T/Saward no doubt it would have attracted much more attention.

Oscar's death is rather like the casual way that the Doctor dismisses Laurence Scarman's death in Pyramids.

No it isn't. The Doctor's grieving, and, indeed, coming out with sickly-sweet 'Good night sweet prince' eulogies.

The Doctor's laughter at the painful death suffered by one of Chang's minions in Talons episode 1 is another example.

Hang on, didn't the Doctor GENUINELY think that was some sort of magic trick? He sobered up fast enough when he realised the guy was actually dead.

But, the Talons guy falling down in a distinctly dead-ish way should have clued even the most thicko thickie that something was terribly wrong.

Also, think of the initial depiction of the Ood as happy in slavery and the Doctor's accepting it and not investigating.

Both of these were a gross violation of the character's and the show's usual moral principles.

I wonder if all the characters here got turned into Cyberpeople by Missy.

But, the Talons guy falling down in a distinctly dead-ish way should have clued even the most thicko thickie that something was terribly wrong.

When the great Li H'sen Chang is in the room, NOTHING must be taken at face value!

Though of course it's possible that the Doctor was just acting stupid to lull him into a false sense of security.

If so, it was a spectacular failure, Chang was one of the few villains with the sense to instantly get freaked out by the Doctor.

Albeit STILL without the sense to just put a bullet through his heart when he had the chance...

Also, think of the initial depiction of the Ood as happy in slavery and the Doctor's accepting it and not investigating.

I suspect the Doctor thought that when the Ood needed investigating, Sexy would take him to investigate. As indeed she did.

Though admittedly he should have been a LOT more pro-active.

I wonder if all the characters here got turned into Cyberpeople by Missy.

Yeah, THAT particular story REALLY put a dampner on, well, everything.

Probably only the people in Earth's tombs were turned to Cybermen, although she might have planned to expand the process to all parts of the space and time once she handed the keys to the Doctor.

I suspect the Doctor thought that when the Ood needed investigating, Sexy would take him to investigate. As indeed she did.

I suspect that the Doctor's actual thought was "hmmm, the BBC have splashed out a lot on these costumes and they'll need to re-use them before the rubber starts to perish, so I'll be running into them again soon..."

I submitted a slightly altered form of my original post to the Doctor Who Ratings Guide and they published it

I've submitted a few articles to them over the last ten years or so.

Sharaz Jek should have lived. The Doctor could have taken him to Gallifrey and the Time Lords could have healed his mutiilation.

Aggedor *sniff* *sniff*

;-)

Of course, from a writer's POV some of these previously mentioned characters have to die because it shows how evil the villain is.

If only jerks and bad people die, well, so what, why should the viewer care?

But if someone the viewer cares about dies... it gives them an emotional investment in the story.

Heck, I suspect that if some of these characters had lived they probably wouldn't have been remembered as well by viewers since there was nothing tragic about them to remember.

Sharaz Jek should have lived.

Why?

The Doctor could have taken him to Gallifrey

Why?

He certainly couldn't be bothered to take AMY or Katherine Jenkins for medical help when THEY needed it.

and the Time Lords could have healed his mutiilation.

Doubt it. They're grossly inefficient at the best of times, and what would they know about human medicine? And even if they DID bother to mend his face, they'd hardly be in a position to do much about Jek's crazed homicidal MIND. After all, half the Time Lords themselves are bat**** crazy.

Aggedor *sniff* *sniff*

Yes! Poor dear Aggy!

A lot of Jek's mental problems were because of his physical injuries, though.

But once you've got into the HABIT of drooling promises of eternal life into some misfortunate screaming girl's ears, I'd imagine it's a hard habit to break.

Katherine Jenkins?

You mean Abigail, right. You're confusing the actor with the character here

But once you've got into the HABIT of drooling promises of eternal life into some misfortunate screaming girl's ears, I'd imagine it's a hard habit to break.

It makes for a very awkward second date, particularly if it takes place at Wagamama.

You mean Abigail, right. You're confusing the actor with the character here

ABIGAIL, of course! I didn't actually get them confused, I just couldn't remember the drippy loser's NAME and figured that if I remembered the name of the actress, everyone ELSE would definitely know who I was talking about.

It makes for a very awkward second date, particularly if it takes place at Wagamama.

Life is tough.

Lynda with a Y should have lived as well. She would have made a great Companion, IMO.

Yes, but the last thing we needed was yet ANOTHER person getting in the way of The Doctor And Rose's Eternal Love, like Mickey, Reinette, Captain Jack, Adam...

Plus, that was a Top Ten Death Scene, no doubt about it...

Guy Crayford. Maybe he would have learned his lesson?

I don't actually CARE whether he's learnt to double-check under eyepatches, the filthy little traitor to humanity can STAY dead as far as I'm concerned.

I guess my upcoming Vince Hawkins story will help.

Like Rex and Hannah, Vince is a character that I liked and wanted to bring back. However, unlike R&H, it was harder to do, since magic, at least the kind that exists in the Charmedverse, would be out of place in the Whoniverse.

However, I have found a way to bring Vince back, so all is well

Did Ted Moss deserve to die? He was just an employee of the local council that cut the hedges.

Oh, did he die? I don't even remember.

*Checks transcript*

He had the UNBELIEVABLE STUPIDITY to threaten Leela ('I'll see you later.' 'Get some practice first.') so HELL yeah he was ASKING for it.

He was just an employee of the local council that cut the hedges.

This description slightly overlooks the fact he was also a member of a satanist cult reviving an ancient evil that would extinguish all life on Earth.

Oh, everyone has a hobby. It'd be like mentioning the Master likes watching children's TV shows. ;-)

Ted Moss may not have known what would happen (the Fendahl coming back), however, he still willing joined the cult.

What did he think was going to happen to Thea in that basement. That they would just let her go and say it was all a joke?

And he was there when Stael shot Fendleman, and was okay with it. That would make him an accomplice to murder.

Moss bought his own fate, he owns it completely. Nothing to save here.

I'd like to add Mr. Fibuli, from The Pirate Planet, to this list.

Apparently, he was originally going to live, but that got changes for some reason.

Whatever would they have done with him?

Tortured him for being a filthy planet-slaughtering quisling, one hopes.

Bit harsh, don't you think.

What can I say?

I'm just the kinda person who bears grudges about mass-murder.

She was no threat to the Master, so why did he kill her?

The police constable he murders in the same story was no threat either.

What can I say?

I'm just the kinda person who bears grudges about mass-murder.


Yes, but poor Mr. Fibuli was hardly responsible for the crimes of Zanak. That was all on Queen Xanxia and her puppet, the Captain.

Left to his own devices, I doubt Mr. Fibuli would have done such a thing. If Mr. Fibuli was guilty for anything, it was being a yes-man.

OF COURSE left to his own devices, the festering pile of •••• wouldn't have harmed a fly.

But that doesn't mean he gets to get away with knowingly and repeatedly aiding and abetting the slaughter of entire worlds.

'I was only obeying orders' just doesn't cut it any more.

*sings*
Who do you think you are kidding, Mr. Fibuli, if you think old England's down...

OF COURSE left to his own devices, the festering pile of •••• wouldn't have harmed a fly.

But that doesn't mean he gets to get away with knowingly and repeatedly aiding and abetting the slaughter of entire worlds.

I'm not saying that Mr. Fibuli should get off scot free.

However, one would hope that the new regime on Zanak would at least give him a trial. If found guilty, he would receive a lengthy prison sentence.


Who do you think you are kidding, Mr. Fibuli, if you think old England's down...

For those of you wondering what this is (looking at you, Emily), Natalie is parodying the theme of the old British sitcom, Dad's Army.

Although, in this case, perhaps you should have put Earth, instead of England

one would hope that the new regime on Zanak would at least give him a trial. If found guilty, he would receive a lengthy prison sentence

Sure, I have no objection to a trial, as long as they don't waste much time and money on it (this is a planet that's gotta learn how to support itself sans regular Economic Miracles, fast). Ten minutes should do it, since the purpose of a trial is (or at least, on any world with a sane justice system, SHOULD be) to determine guilt and Fibuli is guilty as hell.

I also have no objection to a lengthy (as in, life-long) prison sentence, providing it involves the aforementioned torture.

If anyone's squeamish about thumb-screws, well, surely the Mentiads (or Mourners or whatever they're calling themselves this week) can fill his mind with the anguished screaming of the billions he's slaughtered. Forever.

Mr Fibuli: But, I am innocent! I will prove it at my trial!
Mentiad: What trial?

I think a prison sentence would be enough for Mr. Fibuli. No need to torture him.

I wonder who would defend him at said trial?

I think a prison sentence would be enough for Mr. Fibuli. No need to torture him.

The inhabitants of the numerous planets he slaughtered might disagree with you, if only anyone had been left ALIVE on 'em after they were crushed to the size of a football.

Shutting Mr Fibuli up in a room that he wasn't allowed to leave except to go to the bathroom/library/exercise yard/cafeteria etc etc? In what way would THAT constitute a punishment? It wouldn't be any different from his previous life except that he'd probably have more freedom, less responsibility, and less getting-yelled-at.

I wonder who would defend him at said trial?

I wonder if this planet has any sort of justice system? Xanxia would probably have dismantled it in favour of summary executions for anyone who got on her nerves. If that's the case then they're probably in luck, a quick glimpse into anyone's mind by the dear old Mentiads can establish guilt without the hideously expensive, long-drawn-out, victim-destroying, lack-of-justice-delivering farce of an Earth-style trial-by-lawyers.

Shutting Mr Fibuli up in a room that he wasn't allowed to leave except to go to the bathroom/library/exercise yard/cafeteria etc etc? In what way would THAT constitute a punishment? It wouldn't be any different from his previous life except that he'd probably have more freedom, less responsibility, and less getting-yelled-at.

That's the whole point, he would be shut up in a room, and not allowed to leave.

Now, if it were Xanxia herself, or the Captain, I would suggest a harsher punishment, as they were much more responsible for the crimes of Zanak. Heck, Xanxia MADE it happen!

However, I don't think that Mr. Fibuli is in quite the same league. And giving him a harsh punishment, just because Xanxia and the Captain are both conveniently dead, just doesn't seem right, at least to me.

Tim: there were a number of people convicted at post-war trials who were stand-ins for higher-ranking German and Japanese officials who had killed themselves rather than face Allied justice.

I know about that. However, charging Person B, because Person A is conveniently dead, is wrong, IMO.

Charge Mr. Fibuli for whatever crimes he's personally responsible for, but don't use him as a substitute for the now dead Xanxia and/or the Captain.

I wouldn't dream of torturing the Fibuli scum just because his bosses are dead (or, um, whatever happened to Xanxia), I'd be torturing him because he's directly responsible for the brutal murder of billions.

Obviously I'd love to torture the Captain and Xanxia too but that ship has, sadly, sailed.

Oh gods, I've just realised, of all the people in the Whoniverse, the one that is basically ME is the time-travelling shape-shifting robot operated by miniaturised cross people.

Dammit, why couldn't I have been Sally Sparrow or Strax or someone a bit more FUN?

Obviously I'd love to torture the Captain and Xanxia too but that ship has, sadly, sailed.

If you have a time machine, you can always bring the ship back to port and disembark a few passengers.

The Captain is basically a prisoner since the Queen controls his robot half and thus his body.

I wouldn't dream of torturing the Fibuli scum just because his bosses are dead (or, um, whatever happened to Xanxia), I'd be torturing him because he's directly responsible for the brutal murder of billions.

Directly responsible!? Mr. Fibuli was part of it, yes. However, you're making it sound like it was all on him.

As for torture, no doubt that disappeared with the Xanxia regime.

After mulling it over in the back of my mind since this thread began, I honestly can't think of any character I wish I had lived. Death brings a finality to their narrative.

I can think of ones I wish had died, or more accurately had stayed dead. Jenny is a prime example. I'm sure RTD thought he'd do something with that loose thread, but since he didn't, her resurrection just became a gimicky scene.

A more controversial choice, but I'm also going to add Davros to the list. He death in Genesis was a very poignant moment, and his resurrection in the next Dalek story was downright silly, undermining the great story that introduced him. His recurring resurrections started becoming Master-like in their camp. Who didn't need two such villains.

Could say the same about Omega but at least they only brought him back once in a rather forgettable story.

Jenny is a prime example. I'm sure RTD thought he'd do something with that loose thread, but since he didn't, her resurrection just became a gimicky scene.

Well, they have made some Audios about her.

They've made audios about practically every character who didn't die. And probably some who did.

Everyone always says Mike but how about saving Ratcliffe?

'Everyone'? WHO?

For that matter, who's Mike & who's Ratcliffe? What story were they in?

The only Mike I can remember from Dr. Who is Mike Yates and he didn't die.

the members of "The Association" from Remembrance of the Daleks.

Auntie Vanessa's demise is hilarious in how pathetic she acts in trying to save herself. You want to laugh at her, and cheer on the Master...

It's like how the Toll Master gets shot in the back while running into a wall by Gavrok...

Where did this hate for Aunt Vanessa come from??

And remember, Vanessa does enter the Master's TARDIS thinking it's a real police box. That would justify killing her to him.

How about Midge from Survival? He could get a job in that corner shop that sold the Doctor the cat food earlier in that story.

Midge is the Master's dog. In a cat story. There's simply no way he's gonna survive. To quote the Doctor earlier in Survival: 'Go on, go away! Go on! Shoo! Dog, go away!'

They all had to die-remember always fixed points can't be stopped (unless the director says otherwise).

There was no mention of Fixed Points in Survival.

Or the entirety of Old Who.

Well, unless you count Hartnell's grossly inaccurate 'You can't change history! Not one line!'

Maybe by fixed points he meant, "It's been broken and now it's been fixed"? ;-)

It might mean that he hadn't learned that rule yet- everything we've heard about the Doctors school years suggest that he wasn't the best student.