OK, so the universe's most inexplicably popular shape-changers have been granted a third attempt at trying-to-be-interesting. Ergo, I am forced to give them their very own Monsters thread.

Someone try to think of SOMETHING to say about 'em.

So, Broton... Shag, Marry or Throw Off a Cliff?

Throw off a cliff.

I'm marrying Strax instead.

Let's let Zygons be Zygons.

*buh duh bump*

Nice try *sigh*.

Four down, ninety-six to go to get the Zygons up to the AVERAGE number of posts per Monster.

TARDIS Wikia has a nice Zygon thread summarising the ridiculous amounts of spin-off media the Orange Losers have been granted, my favourite of which is River Song's immortal (if sadly uncanonical-due-to-being-in-a-computer-game) line 'What's up, suckers?'

So your choice of husbands is physically asexual? Interesting.

I didn't even THINK of that. I was just thinking of his all-round adorableness, his obsession with the Doctor, and of course him being VERY well-trained to do all the housework.

Alright...

I think Zygons have an interesting alien look.

Their ability to look like others has interesting story possibilities: infiltration; paranoia about who is really who (for both the characters & the audience).

Their organic tech is gnarly.

And while technically not a dinosaur, the Scarasen is close enough to earn coolness points from dinosaur fans.

I was just thinking of his all-round adorableness, his obsession with the Doctor, and of course him being VERY well-trained to do all the housework.

Reasons for which I may marry him. And at least he has functional nipples.

I just took that too far, didn't I?

I think Zygons have an interesting alien look.

I didn't like the chunkier New Who ones, though.

Their ability to look like others has interesting story possibilities: infiltration; paranoia about who is really who (for both the characters & the audience).

Yeah, IF ONLY they were the ONLY Who characters who could do this, instead of joining the queue of Kraal/Axon/Auton/Teselecta/robot duplicates, Gangers, people-who-coincidentally/through-spatial-genetic-multiplicity-just-happen-to-look-like-our-heroes, people-who-get-splintered-into-various-selves, clone-races, Chameleons, etc etc...

And while technically not a dinosaur, the Scarasen is close enough to earn coolness points from dinosaur fans.

Only from dinosaur fans who've ONLY seen the dinosaurs in The Dinosaur Invasion. And even THEY would probably laugh at the Scarasen.

And at least he has functional nipples

Did he say WHERE his magnificent quantities of lactic fluid came from?

Oh, as a dinosaur fan I've watched all manner of bad SFX dinos: men in suits; lizards with frills and/or horns glued to them; toys; stop motion; sock puppets... if there's a bad way to represent a dino on film I've probably seen it.

OK, so the universe's most inexplicably popular shape-changers have been granted a third attempt at trying-to-be-interesting.

So, I guess the Zygons are going to be in an upcoming Capaldi episode...

if there's a bad way to represent a dino on film I've probably seen it.

So whereabouts do the eponymous heroes of The Dinosaur Invasion fall, compared to the OTHER bad dinos?

So, I guess the Zygons are going to be in an upcoming Capaldi episode...

TWO of 'em.

Let the joy be unconfined.

Um, I meant two episodes, not two Zygons.

Presumably, the Zygons occasionally run into eh other monsters, on planets other than Earth, where the Doctor is unlikely to get involved. Obviously, the Daleks would just exterminate them, but what about the rest?

They can imitate humans, but what about Sontarans, Slitheen, or the Silence? Would the Cybermen try to upgrade them, or just kill them? Could there ever be a vampire Zygon? Etc.

Zygons would make wonderful spies. Why don't governments try to recruit them? They appear to be quite reasonable when presented with good alternatives.

Or how about going to work for the movie industry? They would do away with the problem of aging, or even dying actors.

They can imitate humans, but what about Sontarans, Slitheen, or the Silence?

They wouldn't remember the Silence long enough to duplicate them, but I don't see why they shouldn't do other monsters.

There were Zygon cows in Tenth Doctor novel Sting of the Zygons.

Would the Cybermen try to upgrade them, or just kill them?

Kill, I should think. I doubt they're set up to process anything that far from the human norm. Though I suppose they could try turning one into a Cybershade.

Could there ever be a vampire Zygon?

If they can inherit Osgood's asthmas, they can probably inherit some fangs.

Zygons would make wonderful spies. Why don't governments try to recruit them? They appear to be quite reasonable when presented with good alternatives.

Do they?

They weren't reasonable in Terror of the Zygons or Power of Three. They may or may not have been reasonable in Day of the Doctor, we DON'T KNOW cos even MOFFAT got so bored of his stupid Zygon subplot he couldn't be bothered to complete it.

Or how about going to work for the movie industry? They would do away with the problem of aging, or even dying actors.

Only if they kept the originals imprisoned. This may not go down well with the unions.

Much easier to hire some Synthespians from the Nestene Consciousness. Sure, sooner or later they'll run amok and destroy your planet but they REALLY put acting stars in their place.

The Baker Zygons said they needed the original alive when they copied them. Did they say why? Could Osgood's death cause one to get stuck in her form?

I imagined the opposite, that they'd revert back to suckery form, but I can't remember if they said that or if it's an assumption I made. Terror of the Zygons is one of those classics I never found all that classic.

Francois - Or how about going to work for the movie industry? They would do away with the problem of aging, or even dying actors.

Just imagine if the BBC had one near the end of season 3? ;-)

Emily - There were Zygon cows in Tenth Doctor novel Sting of the Zygons.

The were ripping off the Skrulls??? 8-o

Obligatory Emily Explanation^TM: In Marvel Comic's The Fantastic Four #2 the team had captured some shape-shifting aliens called Skrulls and at the end hypnotized them into taking the form & thinking they were cows. Years later in The Avengers the cow Skrulls returned as part of an interstellar war story.

Only if they kept the originals imprisoned. This may not go down well with the unions.

As long as the dues get paid the unions won't care.

So whereabouts do the eponymous heroes of The Dinosaur Invasion fall, compared to the OTHER bad dinos?

Good question. I don't usually watch a story to compare special effects with other stories. If I like a story I can overlook bad SFX, although if I don't like a story good SFX won't save it.

It also doesn't help that I haven't seen it in a few years, but... on a scale of 1-10 (with 10 being the Dinosaurs On A Spaceship & 1 being the dinosaurs we didn't see in Time Flight) probably a 5.

In Marvel Comic's The Fantastic Four #2 the team had captured some shape-shifting aliens called Skrulls and at the end hypnotized them into taking the form & thinking they were cows

Hmm. When was this published? Because Human Nature (book version) had one of its shape-shifting aliens get stuck as a cow and dragged off to the slaughterhouse...DECADES ago.

As long as the dues get paid the unions won't care.

I'm friends with a union rep and believe me, he cares so much about worker's rights (and I'm NOT talking money here) that he actually says that Eccy was RIGHT to betray and abandon us in a principled stand over Who's treatment of the 'little people'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1 being the dinosaurs we didn't see in Time Flight

My god, can you IMAGINE if Time Flight had tried to rustle up a few dinosaurs? It could barely afford a couple of stationary blobs.

Hmm. When was this published? Because Human Nature (book version) had one of its shape-shifting aliens get stuck as a cow and dragged off to the slaughterhouse...DECADES ago.

Erm... January 1962?

http://www.dcindexes.com/features/comic.php?comicid=40953

Oh.

Never mind.

I'm in two minds about the Zygons. On the one hand, it'll be good if that dangling thread from Day of the Doctor could be resolved - I don't see any way Zygons could peacefully co-exist among humans indefinitely, so if that's going to be addressed and put to bed, well and good.

But on the other hand, I'm still annoyed about the changes made to the Zygons - not their appearance, but how they work. For instance, when they were introduced in 1975, they had to put a person in a body print machine in order to shapeshift into that appearance - it was a piece of technology, not a shapeshifting ability inherent to them, and they certainly couldn't read their victims' minds; if the Zygon died the connection was broken and the captire human released, while the human captive had to be kept in the machine so that the body print could be regularly renewed, they couldn't maintain the form long-term without renewing the print. So it jarred to see them randomly shifting into the likeness of someone who they hadn't taken a body print of, and maintaining those forms without holding the originals to renew the body print - and still more to see them reading the minds of their victims so as to take on their personality as well as appearance.

So if this is Zygon!Osgood, no way should it be able to maintain that form with the original dead and gone.

Don't forget that the technology the 1975 Zygons had was more than a thousand years old. Perhaps the technology has advanced since.

Don't forget that the technology the 1975 Zygons had was more than a thousand years old.

But was the Elizabethan Zygons' tech any younger? Surely they all fled their exploding planet at more-or-less the same time?

Invasion:

'The Zygons are a peaceful race' - no they aren't.

'They insert themselves in other cultures' - oh, VERY interesting. There's no sign in Terror Of, Day Of or the fifty million times they've invaded Earth in the spin-off media that they aren't just Earth-obsessed invaders, that inserting themselves is their modus operandi on other innocent planets across the galaxy. In which case, why didn't they try quiet infiltration in Terror instead of getting Nessie to chew up some oil rigs?

And how's it GOING on all these other planets? NOT VERY WELL FOR THE NATIVES, I suspect...

And surely they developed a culture and society and whatever of their own on their own planet before they developed spaceflight/magic paintings? Why would they WANT to chuck that all over so completely?

Why do they suddenly no longer need to drink the milk of the Skarasen to stay alive?

When did they suddenly start reducing their victims to big lumps of sparkly hair?

Zygons can pluck loved ones from your memory and wear their faces and only need the original alive if they need the memories since WHEN!

Their Terror Of ways are referred to as 'the old rules' as if they were just made-up laws rather than biological imperatives. And the Doctor doesn't even KNOW about this evolutionary/legal leap when he bullies everyone into agreeing the most pathologically insane treaty in the history of the universe?

So presumably Zygons enjoy rape and theft as much as the next human, given there wasn't a drastic drop in crime when they took over London? Were they just trying to behave as 'their' human would? What happens when a Zygon falls in love with a human? What happens when two Zygons in human form have sex - what species is the baby? How does ANY of this WORK?

Dammit, wouldn't this all have made a lot more sense if it occurred on a colony world where you could actually explore the implications instead of brushing them all under the carpet next week?

What happens when two Zygons in human form have sex?

Surely a question already addressed by BBV's 'Zygon'?*

(* Possibly. It's not like anyone's prepared to admit having seen it.)

Surely a question already addressed by BBV's 'Zygon'

I suspect Zygon dealt more with the 'sex' angle and less with the 'what happens nine months later' side of things.

It's not like anyone's prepared to admit having seen it

At some point, SOMEONE'S gotta take a bullet for the team and try to get their hands on this thing.

And just for once it's not gonna be ME.

The big unanswered question about settling the Zygons on Earth is why an amphibious species isn't living comparatively freely in the seas and adjacent coastal regions rather than having to disguise themselves as humans in London or landlocked New Mexico.

How amphibious ARE our Zygon chums?

A question that never have seems to have crossed the minds of the makers of this two parter or 'The Day of the Doctor'...

Well, did YOU ever see Broton going for a swim?

It's possible. He could be anyone... even Rebecca Adlington!!!

Who?

A multiple gold-winning Olympic swimmer.

Let me rephrase: did you ever see Broton going for a swim in his natural orange suckery form?

Well, I haven't seen 'Zygon' yet...

We all know the Zygon porn movie couldn't afford any actual Zygon costumes...

It was reputedly finished with the help of a large injection of cash from some Legitimate Businessmen from Las Vegas, so for all we know it could have been a lavish megabucks affair with a million Zygon costumes and a thousand elephants.

Have those claiming it's finished ever explained why no one's EVER SEEN IT?

Of course, it COULD be that everyone's just refusing to ADMIT it, but Who Fans have a fairly high shame threshold - we've all seen Dimensions in Time, for heaven's sake.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2257268/

*Boggles* So SOMEONE has effortlessly obtained a copy after being 'inspired' by Invasion/Inversion....or is a REALLY good liar.

And another ten people are prepared to give it a REALLY LOW mark out of ten, just not to put their names to an actual review or anything...

Power of Three:

A Zygon ship under the Savoy? SERIOUSLY? What's the MATTER with these guys? What's their fixation with Earth? And why does THE DOCTOR fall for their we're-poor-pathetic-refugees story and GIVE THEM OUR PLANET? Oh, and why do their thousands of invasions of Earth never bump into each other?

The Zygons are from ZYGOR? (2017 Annual.) I'm not saying they aren't, I'm just wondering where the hell you got THAT from...*Checks TARDIS Wikia* THE BODYSNATCHERS? Why on Earth (Zygor. Whatever.) would you take that godawful EDA's word for ANYTHING?

More to the point, why do the Zygons never wax lyrical about their poor lost homeworld Zygor on-screen...?

Because it would sound like they were do Spice Girls karaoke?

The Doctor VS the Spice Girls!

The Doctor: I'll show them what *I* really, really want *cocks pistol*

So if the Robot had carried on rampaging around Broton (for terror of the zygons) would have set the Skarassan on it. I wonder ho would win? My money is on the robot as if it really is made of living metal that can’t be destroyed eventually the monster would get tired

how about Scaroth vs. the Skarasen?

My money is on the Skarasen still

So if the Robot had carried on rampaging around Broton (for terror of the zygons) would have set the Skarassan on it.

I doubt it.

Those Zygons, they come over here, they take our jobs, they take our homes, they take our women (and men, and children) but do they lift a barnacled finger to protect our world when, say, there's a DALEK INVASION OF EARTH for ten sodding years?

They do not.

I wonder ho would win? My money is on the robot as if it really is made of living metal that can’t be destroyed eventually the monster would get tired

On the other hand, the Robot might get all sentimental over the monster and decide he'll keep it as a pet, a la Sarah Jane.

The Zygons may well have been long gone by the time the Daleks showed up. In fact they’re almost certainly were as we never saw them in Earth society in any of the future stories.

And Broton could hardly take over Earth with the Robot trashing it. They needed us and our infrastructure to remake it.

Maybe Robot would feel less sentimental when the Skarasen had torn off a limb or two.

The Zygons may well have been long gone by the time the Daleks showed up. In fact they’re almost certainly were as we never saw them in Earth society in any of the future stories.

The Zygons couldn't leave Earth alone for two minutes (taking the novels and audios into account) when they had ZERO right to it - once the PRESIDENT OF EARTH has handed our world over to 'em and a generation has been hatched here, we're NEVER prising their tentacles off 'their' home...

For one thing, they seem to have murdered-and-replaced the whole of London, but there's no sign of THAT being totally depopulated as they sod off, not even in the aforementioned Dalek Invasion of Earth...

And Broton could hardly take over Earth with the Robot trashing it. They needed us and our infrastructure to remake it.

True, but do you notice any Zygons ridding us of Donald Trump or Kim Jong-Un? They're not as keen to avert nuclear war as you'd THINK. Genocidal nutcases.

The Zygons will disappear the same as Torchwood and all the other RTD staples. Didn’t the Zygons keep the originals alive under London? Presumably the truce broke down, they left Earth and the originals were found. Thus preventing a mass depopulation.

The Zygons have no Skarasen any more. They’re absolutely pathetic as new series baddies.

The Zygons will disappear the same as Torchwood and all the other RTD staples

Nonsense! Torchwood will go on for millennia, as proven by The Impossible Planet...

*Pause*

OK, now you mention it...when WAS the last time Torchwood was mentioned in Moffat Who?

(Chibnall will restore it to its former glory, right? He WAS its showrunner, after all.)

Didn’t the Zygons keep the originals alive under London?

That's the problem. It's massively unclear. I'm going with the NO THEY SLAUGHTERED THEM ALL option, but that may just be because I'm the glass-half-empty type...

Presumably the truce broke down, they left Earth and the originals were found. Thus preventing a mass depopulation.

What would it take to make the truce break down? Slaughtering/imprisoning the whole of London didn't do it, even though this was, what, the NINTH time the genocidal gits had decided to wipe out humanity since the Doctor had insisted on handing over OUR WORLD to them?

(Come to think of it, I should stop criticising Kate Lethbridge-Stewart for trying to nuke London that day, it might have been the lesser of two evils.)

The Zygons have no Skarasen any more. They’re absolutely pathetic as new series baddies.

To be fair, they might be even more pathetic if they DID have a Skarasen about the place...

The Zygons have no Skarasen any more.

Isn't she still swimming around Loch Ness?

Yeah, and personally I regard it as gross dereliction of duty that Bonnie never went up to Loch Ness and tried to summon the crittur...

Well without the Doc keeping his great white elephant of a truce intact it would break down permanently. It’s has broken down loads before but he kept trying to reset it, causing worse death and disruption every time.

So it will ave broken down by now and they’ll have left the planet, hopefully to an empty one where they can be themselves.

She didn’t need to nuke London that day, a few soldiers were all that was called for. Her dad would have sorted them out himself.

Maybe Bonnie discovered that the Skarassan isn’t invulnerable to human weapons any more, the Valient had its ray gun and some of the US’s real world toys like bunker busters or rail guns may well be enough to penetrate her armour. Also our modern more accurate weapons mean we could hit her exposed mouth.

Or maybe the remote control code is almost impossible to crack.

So it will ave broken down by now and they’ll have left the planet, hopefully to an empty one where they can be themselves

If they were willing to do THAT they'd've done it in the first place, or at least when they realised that Earth - is - protected! NOT after actually putting down roots on this planet. (And by 'putting down roots' I of course mean SLAUGHTERING MILLIONS.)

Maybe Bonnie discovered that the Skarassan isn’t invulnerable to human weapons any more, the Valient had its ray gun

Yeah, but a) Bonnie's a crazed genocidal megalomaniac who hasn't thought her plan through, and what crazed genocidal megalomaniac could resist their very own Loch Ness Monster, and b) I BET we haven't been able to afford to replace the Valiant.

Also our modern more accurate weapons mean we could hit her exposed mouth.

Who would do a mean thing like that!

Nobody said the Zygons were the sharpest tool in the shed. Like I said they’ve gone from fan favourite to complete joke.

We may not have been able to afford to replace the valentine but I’m sure we could whip up its ray gun simply enough if we had to.

Bonnies plan would have worked just fine if not for the Doc.

If Nessie was trampling round London I wouldn’t mind

Nobody said the Zygons were the sharpest tool in the shed

Ah. Was Clara forcing the Doctor to have a be-kind-to-the-mentally-challenged day - was THAT why he handed Earth over to 'em?

Like I said they’ve gone from fan favourite to complete joke.

Though, let's face it, as world-conquering plans go, 'Get the Loch Ness Monster to eat an Energy Conference! It'll be fun! Humanity will totally surrender to the four of us!' wasn't THAT impressive either.

I’m sure we could whip up its ray gun simply enough if we had to

Don't be too sure. We never bothered reproducing the Disintegrator Gun - maybe the Doctor stole the blueprints for both to keep 'em out of human hands, the way he did Imbecile's Gas.

Bonnies plan would have worked just fine if not for the Doc.

True, but that doesn't make it a good idea, to implement a 'My plan is infallible if only the President of Earth who's foiled every other alien invasion ever doesn't notice me depopulating the modern-day-London he's always hanging around in.'

(Mind you, it worked for a •••• sight longer than it SHOULD have worked...)

If Nessie was trampling round London I wouldn’t mind

You would if she ate you/all the Not Wes were pointing and laughing at her...

Yeah it wasn’t the best plan but an indestructible cyborg aka the Loch Ness monster is a pretty good foil for any plan. It was going to eat Thatcher remember.

We forgot how to make the disintegrator gun yes but the Valient ray gun was a copy already so it’s safe to say that can be remade. Unless Kate Stewart ate the plans or something.

If we’re going to brand plans bad just because they don’t take into account the doc’s interference nobody has had a good plan since 1963.

I meant that if Nessie was trampling round London I wouldn’t mind her getting a cruise missile to the mouth

Yeah it wasn’t the best plan but an indestructible cyborg aka the Loch Ness monster is a pretty good foil for any plan.

I'm not sure it WAS. It was pretty obvious - you had to gas everyone to sleep whenever it went walkies. And it's not as if it even managed to capture a single humanoid whilst chasing him across that moor. Plus if the Zygons ever lost its remote control they were screwed. Plus the sight of it would be less likely to get us on our knees to our new alien overlords than saying 'Aaah, you remember making papier mache models when you were a kid...?'

It was going to eat Thatcher remember.

Only in our dreams.

We forgot how to make the disintegrator gun yes but the Valient ray gun was a copy already so it’s safe to say that can be remade. Unless Kate Stewart ate the plans or something.

It's that meddlesome Doctor I blame, he's always taking our toys away from us...

If we’re going to brand plans bad just because they don’t take into account the doc’s interference nobody has had a good plan since 1963.

Not quite. If the Master's main aim is to attract the Doctor's attention rather than actually rule Earth then all her/his plans were spectacularly successful. And the Angels brilliantly succeeded for years by the simple expedient of invading New York not London. And of course there are some tragic losers who haven't even HEARD of the Doctor (which probably explains why they're attempting to fill up their barren pointless existences by invading other people's planets) but given that he brokered the godawful deal that enabled millions of Zygons to infiltrate our planet a few years ago then Bonnie and co have NO EXCUSE for not taking him into account.

(Oh, and everyone who invaded Tivoli had a really great plan that involved knowing the Doctor didn't give a •••• about that particular planet...)

I meant that if Nessie was trampling round London I wouldn’t mind her getting a cruise missile to the mouth

Ah, I SEE.

Heartless monster, obviously YOU never got to play with papier mache as a kid...

Yeah the monster was very obvious but it’s not exactly made to be subtle and they only had to gas the village once because of the oil base. If they hadn’t built the oil base for another few years the first time our species would have known of it was the attack on London.

The attractor wasn’t exactly made to be used for person sized targets.

An their ship was the remote control. You’re plan is already screwed when you’ve lost that.

The Doc cant have managed to take everything off of us, he often leaves without tying up all the loose ends.

The masters plans must have been to attract the Doc. They certainly weren’t any good for conquering the world. The angels were beaten remember.

I had lots of fun with paper mache. But when it’s 50 ft tall and squashing London it’s time to break out the artillery

If they hadn’t built the oil base for another few years the first time our species would have known of it was the attack on London.

Hang on, wasn't it a deliberate decision by the Zygons to begin their conquest of Earth by destroying a couple of oil-rigs for as-yet-undisclosed reasons? Nessie didn't just get peckish and decide to chew on some concrete...

The attractor wasn’t exactly made to be used for person sized targets.

Excuses, excuses...

An their ship was the remote control. You’re plan is already screwed when you’ve lost that.

I thought the remote control was the remote control...?

The Doc cant have managed to take everything off of us, he often leaves without tying up all the loose ends.

True, but then a later and more manipulative Doctor WILL pop back and tie up loose ends, like nicking Imbecile's Gas...

The angels were beaten remember.

Well, they lost one battery-human farm, that doesn't mean the Statue of Liberty isn't still controlling Manhattan...

I had lots of fun with paper mache. But when it’s 50 ft tall and squashing London it’s time to break out the artillery

But there are SO MANY humans and only one Nessie...and there's not much point in saving Londoners' lives when we're all gonna get murdered by the bloody Zygons ANYWAY...

You’re right but if not for the oil company the monster wouldn’t have had to detour so soles to the village meaning less clues for the Doc.

Also maybe they’d have tried destroying something else, maybe something harder to leave teeth marks in.

The only way to control Nessie was with the ship’s controls though it needed the attractor as well.

Without the ship you could use the attractor to lead it around but that’s it, also the attractor had a limited range they needed to use the ship controls to get it near enough for the signal from the attractor to bring it in.

The battery human farm was the source of food for all the angels in manhattan, without it they were wiped out.

Some of us have enough sense not to let Zygons run around on Earth. Send them home and all that

The battery human farm was the source of food for all the angels in manhattan, without it they were wiped out.

Ah. Surely they don't GET wiped out, they just hang around looking stone-ish until some unlucky human (of which Manhattan presumably has PLENTY) wanders into their path and recharges them?

Some of us have enough sense not to let Zygons run around on Earth.

ALL of us except the Doctor and UNIT, apparently, the two people/organisations we SHOULD have been able to rely on to PROTECT US FROM ALIEN INVADERS.

Send them home and all that

Well, that's a bit harsh, 'home' burnt in the Time War or something, still, there are loads of uninhabited planets they could have colonised with their own culture instead of repeatedly invading ours for no readily apparent reason.

The Doc said that the paradox would poison their food so it killed them. They’re tough but not invincible, especially to timey wimey stuff.

Yeah well don’t worry, the Zygons will be being kicked off planet we we speak. It’s the Gap betweeen showrunners, the decks will be cleared and the Zygons are going the same way as Torchwood. All ready for the new show runner to come in and pretend it never happened.

Oh yes sorry not home, send them to their own planet, to build their own civilisation.

The Doc said that the paradox would poison their food so it killed them. They’re tough but not invincible, especially to timey wimey stuff.

Ah. I had the feeling you'd remember more about Angels Take Manhattan than me.

I find it hard to believe that Angels actually DIE from paradoxes, however, given that they almost literally eat paradoxes for breakfast.

Yeah well don’t worry, the Zygons will be being kicked off planet we we speak. It’s the Gap betweeen showrunners, the decks will be cleared and the Zygons are going the same way as Torchwood. All ready for the new show runner to come in and pretend it never happened.

I wouldn't be so sure, Kate first appeared in a Chibnall story so he'll quite probably want to reuse her and her highly-popular TWO ZYGON ASSISTANTS. And then there's the gratuitous Zygon encounter in Power of Three, he seems to be a bit of a fan of the orange losers...

Oh yes sorry not home, send them to their own planet, to build their own civilisation.

Though to be absolutely brutally honest, whilst sending them to die on an exploding homeworld would be quite mean, it would STILL be a better idea than BLOODY GIVING THEM EARTH.

Maybe Paradoxes are like fatty food, tastes good but eat too much and it kills you.

Kate may stay, or they’ll bring in a male UNIT head so the writers can make horrendously hamfisted statements in sexism and oat themselves on the back for how progressive they are.

They chose to steal earth after all, just because it’s convenient.

Zygons May return but not necessarily on Earth. I mean there is limited potential for them as baddies in the current arrangement, unless it ends with them leaving earth.

Kate may stay, or they’ll bring in a male UNIT head so the writers can make horrendously hamfisted statements in sexism and oat themselves on the back for how progressive they are.

There's not much I'd say in Chibnall's defence (except...JODIE! JODIE!) but one thing he's got spot-on (aside from JODIE! JODIE!) is how bloody sexist today's society IS. I don't think he was being hamfisted in Broadchurch Season Three, I think he was being hideously accurate.

They chose to steal earth after all, just because it’s convenient.

But it's NOT convenient! 'Convenient' would be NOT spending centuries in a space-fleet to get to Earth (Terror of the Zygons) or having to freeze yourself for centuries (Day of the Doctor) or getting stuck in one stupid body forever and exported to bloody America (Invasion/Inversion).

I’ve not seen broadchurch, I was thinking more some guest writer would manage something terrible. Still right now Kate isn’t exactly a shining example for the sisterhood. I mean UNIT were a joke before but st least they never actively tried to level London they always shot at the aliens even if it didn’t work very often, they always tried so hard

Yeah the Zygons are just nasty aren’t they.

they always tried so hard

I dunno, if they'd tried THAT hard you'd think they've noticed Torchwood...the Curator-Doctor...the lecturer-Doctor...the Vault-Master...the fact gold bullets might come in quite handy...the fact that women can be soldiers...a LOT sooner.

Exact they beat the cyber men without gold bullets, the hyper competent UNIT of invasion easily defeated the cybermen. It’s only in the third doctors era they became the joke we’re used to

the hyper competent UNIT of invasion easily defeated the cybermen

I wouldn't go THAT far. They faffed around in sewers whilst the entire world was put to sleep, whereupon Zoe and the Soviet Union saved us all...(Or something. The Invasion is way too boring to remember. I'd take entertaining incompetents over THAT lot any day. Plus they were sexist as hell, I remember that much.)

The Doc keeps UNIT awake, otherwise they do everything themselves. Shooting down the landing force, destroying the cybermen already on the ground, and arranging the Russian launch against the mothership.

They weren’t that sexist, the brig phrased his objection to Zoe and the photographer going into the sewers badly but he was right it was a job for the soldiers. Especially as their photos were useless.

The Brig would have easily prevented this Zygon mess from happening. He wasn’t the best the world had to offer he just did the best he could.

The Doc keeps UNIT awake, otherwise they do everything themselves

Oh, and Zoe didn't have anything to do with it, I suppose?

Admittedly, now you mention it, UNIT DO acquit themselves adequately, which is astonishing when you consider they've never coped with an alien invasion before (disregarding the Lethbridge-Stewart prequel novels, obviously) and they're led by a man who DID deal with one alien invasion before, by getting all his men killed, having a nervous breakdown and attempting to flee in the TARDIS.

They weren’t that sexist, the brig phrased his objection to Zoe and the photographer going into the sewers badly

Actually I thought he phrased it remarkably well...for a chauvinist...he caught himself mid-sentence and pretended it was no job for a 'girl like you' rather than what he was ACTUALLY thinking, which was it was no job for A GIRL. He was more blatantly sexist when dealing with female soldiers in Battlefield DECADES later.

but he was right it was a job for the soldiers. Especially as their photos were useless.

Oh. Yeah. Fair point.

The Brig would have easily prevented this Zygon mess from happening. He wasn’t the best the world had to offer he just did the best he could.

He was TOTALLY the best this world has to offer! Sexism and nervous breakdowns and Cyber-conversions notwithstanding!

And yeah, there's just no way he'd've agreed to handing Earth over to the Zygons even if the Doctor had bizarrely made him believe he might be a Zygon...(Dammit if he'd pulled that trick with Silurians it would have made sense, they DO have an equal right to our planet - plus, more Madame Vastras! Bring it on! - whilst the invading orange genocidal maniacs didn't have a leg to stand on.)

Sorry I forgot about Zoe, but they only needed her because they had only been able to wake up one rocket base, and even without her they could have destroyed most of the Cybermen and the survivors could still have been mopped up easily enough. Especially once the rest of the world woke up.

Yep the Brig really did do well in Invasion. I’d forgotten his sexism in Battlefield, was it risky thst bad?

Five rounds rapid fire on the Zygons, get off my world!

Yeah they really should have done the Zygon thing with Silurian instead.

even without her they could have destroyed most of the Cybermen

Dunno about most, they had a rather depressing 'Well, we can't get them all. Let's take as many as we can' attitude and were astonished when Zoe claimed she had a good chance of getting at least 90% (come to think of it, that makes her a bit rubbish at calculations since she got 100%).

and the survivors could still have been mopped up easily enough.

Nothing in the history of UNIT makes me believe they could have mopped up ANY invader easily enough, let alone Who's Second-Best Monster.

Oh I misremembered, still they must have been able to destroy more than half.

UNIT may have struggled with most things but they beat Who’s second best monster hands down. Like I said they were competent in that episode.

I wonder if the Zygon’s change ability is natural, they are seen using technology to copy specific people but they seem to have it all their lives. Bioengineered perhaps or just technology to guide it on occasion.

What happened to the immediate molecular dispersal anyway?

I’d forgotten his sexism in Battlefield, was it risky thst bad?

Yes it bloody was, everything from seizing control from Brigadier Bambera without even noticing he was doing it to asking a female soldier if she was armed to expecting his wife to have dinner on the table...

What happened to the immediate molecular dispersal anyway?

WHAT immediate molecular dispersal?

Tbf Bigadier Bambera was too busy wrestling with knights and getting captured to do much leading. She was written more like a sergeant than a senior officer. As for the female soldier wasn’t that the pilot? And pilots are not always armed, especially on transport flights across their own country in peacetime.

The Zygons could make the dead Zygon vanish in terror

DANIEL in Terror of the Zygons: We don’t know how long they live and Broton does say it will take centuries for their refugee fleet to arrive. Perhaps this is only the equivalent of a few months for them.

HELL that's a point, the Zygon lifespan. (Of course, they could have been in hibernation or something but it certainly looks like they'll have to be awake for the next few centuries to restructure the Earth). Yet ANOTHER reason why them invading OUR planet and unsuccessfully attempting to integrate was so infinitely worse an idea than JUST COLONISING YOUR OWN EMPTY PLANET YOU MORONS - every one of them who took human form sacrificed CENTURIES of life. (At least, they bloody well BETTER have sacrificed it, if there's one thing worse than genocidal human-Zygons clogging up our plant it's genocidal human-Zygons who live for a millennia.)

Tbf Bigadier Bambera was too busy wrestling with knights and getting captured to do much leading.

Hey, she only got captured at the end.

She was written more like a sergeant than a senior officer.

Yeah that's true now you mention it, but entirely beside the point, you just KNOW the Brig would have respected any successor (however unsatisfactory, like Creighton) who happened to be MALE.

As for the female soldier wasn’t that the pilot? And pilots are not always armed, especially on transport flights across their own country in peacetime.

Well, in UNIT I assume they ARE always armed cos Lavel looked seriously, almost insubordinately, pissed off with her 'Yes, sir' when asked if she was armed.

The Zygons could make the dead Zygon vanish in terror

Ah, I remember now. Vaguely.

I fear the new series has forgotten that Zygons live for centuries and all those Human Zygons will vastly outlive us.

This was the Brig’s final outing and with his successor shacking up with a night he had to step in.

Oh I thought it was supposed to be an authoritative and brave Yes Sir.

all those Human Zygons will vastly outlive us.

Over my dead body!

*Pause*

OK, not much of a threat as they've almost certainly slaughtered Whoniverse-me alongside, y'know, practically everyone else in London.

This was the Brig’s final outing and with his successor shacking up with a night he had to step in.

Well, ABSOLUTELY.

I mean, HE'S allowed to save the world and have dirty weekends in Brighton with Doris but obviously any FEMALE running a paramilitary organisation must be removed from authority the moment she even THINKS about having a shag.

That's probably why Kate introduced herself as 'Divorcee' when striding forward to confront a Cyber-army.

Oh I thought it was supposed to be an authoritative and brave Yes Sir.

Nope, it was a massively indignant one accompanied by a look of pure disgust.

Don’t worry all those Zygons are doing down a crack in time or the time war or something.

When you’re busy messing with a knight rather than actually running the army absolutely. Tbf Brig does outrank her and he’s held his rank for longer and he does leave her to fight the battle whilst he’s with the Doc.

Oh well maybe they’re trying to call out the brig on his old fashionedness

Don’t worry all those Zygons are doing down a crack in time or the time war or something.

The Cracks and Time War are over, we need something else to come along and get rid of the bloody Zygons and we need it NOW.

When you’re busy messing with a knight rather than actually running the army absolutely.

Bambera's a woman, she can MULTITASK.

When did she ever let 'messing with a knight' get in the way of doing her job? She beat this invader-from-another-dimension in single combat, she very sensibly entered an alliance with him, she didn't let her feelings get in the way of threatening to kill him if he didn't start running, she said 'Not now Ancelyn' when he tried to chat her up at an inopportune moment, she was perfectly capable of sub-machining knights whilst asking if Ancelyn was married, she sure as hell didn't get captured cos she was so busy making sheep's eyes at the guy...what exactly is your PROBLEM? I don't recall you suggesting that the Doctor be relieved of his planet-saving duties when he fell in love with Rose.

Tbf Brig does outrank her and he’s held his rank for longer

He's a Brig, she's a Brig, I'm not seeing the outranking and even if he HAD been promoted to General upon retirement - as is the custom that wasn't extended to him for some reason - you simply CAN'T have every retired officer hobbling up to the current commander and taking charge whenever they feel like it. That's not how the army WORKS.

Oh well maybe they’re trying to call out the brig on his old fashionedness

Otherwise known as blatant sexism.

to be fair to Alistair, he might think Bambera's grandparents swung from trees.

Mercifully he's never shown any signs of racism, just sexism (which society considers considerably less serious for some reason that's always escaped my comprehension).

I suspect he's from that upper-class tradition that says you should be gracious to all your inferiors (i.e. anyone who isn't an upper-class white British male) rather than the other upper-class tradition that suggests you treat them all like chav vermin.

Come to think of it...just look at his granddad. He doesn't bat an eyelid about Bill being black but he oozes condescension and a willingness to die for her, just because she's female.

The Zygons will go into whatever excuse Gatis thinks of.

My problem is that she’s fighting with and running around with Ancelyn herself, she’s a brigadier, get someone else to punch him and keep him under guard, it’s her job to worry about the alien invasion. Like I said she’s acting like an NCO not a brigadier

My opposition to Doc falling in love with Rose is well documented.

I meant to say that he outranks her as they are the same rank but as he’s held it longer that gives him seniority over her.

The Zygons will go into whatever excuse Gatis thinks of.

Why him and not Chibnall? Gatiss hasn't even bothered to clear up his OWN mess, viz, our solar system getting turned into bloody boring Sandmen in the thirty-eighth century.

she’s a brigadier, get someone else to punch him and keep him under guard

Were there actually any of her troops around at the time? They were probably off guarding the nuke or something.

it’s her job to worry about the alien invasion

Nonsense, THE DOCTOR is here! It's HIS job!

I meant to say that he outranks her as they are the same rank but as he’s held it longer that gives him seniority over her.

Not if he's retired it doesn't.

Sorry I meant Chinbal, anyway I don’t care if it’s the work experience boy who thinks up the excuse as long as they’re gone.

She doesn’t even try to summon her troops or hand Ancelyn onto them once she is with them.

She doesn’t know the Doc is there to sort things out, she doesn’t know he even exists, what kind of UNIT head is she? No knowledge of the alien who saved Earth dozens of times.

But the Brig’s commission has been reactivated so I don’t know what happens then.

It was nice how they let the Brig kill Broton in his last UNIT era story, at last an alien race that wasn’t immune to bullets

She doesn’t even try to summon her troops

I should bloody well hope NOT, they're guarding a nuclear missile, she may not have heard of the Doctor but I bet Bambera knows what happened the last SEVERAL TIMES (well, Mind of Evil and the Time Heals audio anyway) some idiot entrusted UNIT with guarding a nuclear missile...

She doesn’t know the Doc is there to sort things out, she doesn’t know he even exists, what kind of UNIT head is she? No knowledge of the alien who saved Earth dozens of times.

Weirdly enough, THE BRIG spent six post-UNIT years in blissful ignorance of Our Hero, SOMEONE did a really thorough job of covering-up for SOME REASON.

(I mean, we know why he lost his memory but we sure as hell don't know why ANY of his old chums - second-hand car dealers or no second-hand car dealers - never mentioned the D-word to the Brig ONCE in six years.)

But the Brig’s commission has been reactivated so I don’t know what happens then.

I dunno if a phone call from the UN Secretary-General saying 'Hey we've spotted that Doctor guy' counts as being officially recommissioned by the British arm of UNIT. Were the troops informed? Was BAMBERA informed? (If that's the case it would make me feel a LOT better about the way she LET some MAN elbow her aside.)

It was nice how they let the Brig kill Broton in his last UNIT era story, at last an alien race that wasn’t immune to bullets

Dammit, you'd think he could have instilled a JUST SHOOT THE ORANGE GITS instinct in his daughter...

...Oh. Maybe he DID and that's why she grotesquely overreacted with the whole NUKING LONDON thing, which was why she grotesquely over-overreacted to said nuking by handing over our sodding planet to them...

I maintain that the new Brig was badly written.

Yeah the Brig really should have instilled hhow to handle Zygons or indeed any aliens into his daughter better. He didn’t try nuking London to kill the Skarassan

I maintain that the new Brig was badly written

So was the old Brig, it's just that it was NICHOLAS COURTNEY and that twinkle in his eye ensured he got away with ANYTHING.

He always had his mind on the job though, and he also didn’t try to level London.

So Zygons in 2018?

He always had his mind on the job though

Well, there was that time in Web of Fear when the Brig's mind was on RUNNING AWAY from the job...

and he also didn’t try to level London.

Yeah, but we shouldn't have to give people CREDIT for that.

No one's ever praised ME on those grounds.

So Zygons in 2018?

Actually I would think so, if only because the BBC need to get their moneys-worth out of those stupid orange costumes before they disintegrate.

They could always hide the stupid orange costumes inside the stupid plastic Daleks lol.

As long as they aren’t taking over the UK whilst the story desperately tries to argue that co existence is possible it’ll be a step up.

Give them a Skarassan again and I’ll be happy

You know, if one of the Doctor's grannies was always telling Little Doc that her/his other granny was a Zygon (It Takes You Away), it's INCONCEIVABLE that Tom wouldn't have shared this amusing fact the first time he caught the orange losers attempting to invade Earth...

Moderator's Note: Moved from Modern Who: Season One: World War Three:

Can Zygons turn into cats?

I seem to remember Zygon cows (Tenth Doctor novel Sting of the Zygons) but I should think cats would be too small...

Though hang on, didn't Ten think a RABBIT might be a Zygon in Day Of...?

So, maybe.

But if they COULD become the Supreme Beings of the Universe, why bother with being HUMAN?

To infiltrate our households?

Cats can infiltrate households WAY more easily than humans, who are large and annoying.

What I meant was that they infiltrate our houses by taking the form of cats.

Should have worded it better. Sorry.

It WOULD make a lot of sense for them to THINK they were infiltrating our houses before, once they actually BECAME little fluffy gods, rapidly losing interest in conquering Earth in favour of eating, snoozing, sunning themselves and chasing that laser-pointer...

...Would have been the purrfect resolution to that Day of the Doctor fiasco but nope, we got Zygon Inversion/Invasion instead...

The Black Archive:

'The Zygons...showed no such tendency to symbiotically link themselves to a human double's very self [in Terror Of]...To assume they would be so willing to submerge their own personalities into another's identity is to devalue the being that the Zygon is. Either some aspect of the Zygon remains present, in which case Osgood is not truly Osgood, or the Zygons place no value on their own identities and are willing to sacrifice them with little concern, which would seem unlikely for a race which has expended much effort to travel across the galaxy' - yeah, THAT'S a nice summary of what's being vaguely bugging me ever since the Doctor decided to hand our planet over to the orange gits (albeit not as much as, y'know, him deciding to hand our planet over to the orange gits).

'The Doctor is oddly unconcerned about this, given he thought it very much an issue when Amy and Clara were replaced by doubles' - actually the Doc did seem oddly CONCERNED about Osgood's identity, to the point of racism. Even though it turned out not to actually matter.