Moderator's Note: This is Mike's original Master summary:

Thanks to a suggestion by Emily Carter, I'm adding a discussion area for the man you all love to hate, the Master. Later writers tried to come up with other opponents for the Doctor (the Rani and the pitiful Valeyard), but none of them measured up to the Master. Perhaps it was because the Master had some of the Doctor's sense of humor, but of a blacker sort. Also, there was the backstory that these mortal enemies were once good friends. The MA "The Dark Path" provides some pre-evil history of the Master, including his "real" name, Koschei. I suspect it's no more real than Theta Sigma.


NOTE: Message edited by 'mkonczewski': EMILY: You put the Master in with the COMPANIONS?! Well, I suppose it's a fitting fate for him. No-one can deny that he spends half his time hanging round with the Doctor, and it's not written into their contracts that Companions HAVE to worship the ground the Doctor treads on - Turlough tried to smash his head open; Mike Yates betrayed him; Dodo couldn't be bothered to say goodbye; Ian, Barbara, Polly and Ben scarpered as soon as possible; Peri's first reaction on seeing the Doctor's tombstone was 'what'll happen to me?' (well...I wouldn't waste any time mourning Colin Baker either).
Note from Mike the Moderator--Emily's rant gave me the idea of adding this Villain section, so that's why her opening sentence doesn't make much sense. Don't blame her!

Oh, I forgot - I was supposed to be talking about the Master. I disagree with what Chris said in Miscellaneous Recurring Characters, that the Master becomes a shadow of his former self. Unlike the Doctor, EVERY regeneration of his was wonderful. Anthony Ainley was the definitive Master (because I grew up with him); Roger Delgado oozed a really urbane evilness; whatshisname in Deadly Assassin was fantastically horrifying; Pratt was excellent in Keeper of Traken, even if the eyeballs were inferior to his predecessor's; and Eric Roberts (almost) scared me, once I got over the American accent and once the Eight Doctors explained how he acquired the ability to turn into a snake.

I have to admit they went a little OTT with the Master in Season Eight, though. And I really would like an explanation of why he never kills the Doctor.

Well when I made that comment I was really only thinking of Anthony Ainley as he went on (although by Survival redeeemed himself) and Eric Roberts - just too hammy for me, especially when in the Gallifreyan garb.

Rant??? ME????????? Mike, you are in SUCH severe trouble...well, maybe I'll forgive you this once, since you are God as far as this board is concerned...and since you've created a wonderful new villains section...but a grovelling apology might possibly be in order...no? Oh well, never mind.

How about "strongly worded comment" instead of rant?

Well, if that's the best you can come up with, I suppose it'll have to do. Just as a matter of interest, what percentage of my contributions to this board would you describe as ranting?

We wouldn't dare like to say Emily.

Ranting--less than 1%
Pro-feminist/anti-male establishment--95%
Swooning over Tom Baker--25%
Mel-bashing--75%
Brig-bashing--60%

There's some overlap, of course.

Swap 'Brig-bashing' for 'Colin Baker-bashing' and I'll be quite happy with that summary (though it'll never win you a badge for mathematical excellence). I do love the Brig, honest. It was the Doctor who called him a 'conceited self-opinionated idiot', not me!

Consider it swapped.

Statistics were never my strong point.

Roger Delgado was brilliant, Peter Pratt was brilliant and Anthony Ainley was brilliant but why was Eric Roberts pants? Please could someone tell me why because in the same way Daleks cannot see red, I cannot see overpaid, overrated US actors.

Come to think of it, Eric Roberts hasn't done a whole lot of work since then.

Maybe because of that he came cheap?

South Park summed the man Roberts up nicely - if you recall he was the first to be eaten when a large number of South Park characters were left stranded by a blizzard. One of them justified it quite simply: "Who's gonna remember Eric Roberts anyway?" Or something along those lines. Basically, it appears Eric Roberts over there is the equivalent of, well, Eric Roberts over here.
And still he cost a bomb to hire - doubtless elevating the cost of the TV Movie to the 3.5 million by approx. 3.4 million.

Did anyone see him play someone dying of AIDS in the film It's My Party? I thought he was OK in that.

[[Basically, it appears Eric Roberts over there is the equivalent of, well, Eric Roberts over here.]]

I don't know how Eric Roberts is seen in the UK but in the US he was regarded as a wunderkind early in his career, but then never rose to the predicted susperstar level. His sister Julia, on the other hand....

The actual South Park line was "Who gives a (expletive) about Eric Roberts?"

Apparently not too many casting directors of late...

I thought the best part of Roberts' performance was in Gallifreyan garb. It was the only time that I feel he really captured the character of the Master. I wish he had been more like that for the rest of the film. Earlier in the picture I thought he was a stereotypical, cold-blooded, ho hum, boring, stock villain, but when he appeared in his robes he seemed more relaxed, charming and humorous.

Delgado is the definitive version, he could be ruthless, charming, funny and deadly.
I never understood why he wanted to rule the universe, but then writers rarely bother trying to explain that motivation.
Why he never killed the Doctor..., possibly he still subconsciously thought of the Doctor as his friend, and that led him to use less than successful ways to kill him.
I think one of the more interesting character flaws of Delgado's Master was how he kept relying on others to help him. He arrogantly felt that he was qualified to rule the universe, but he needed help to take it over.

I think Ainley was the second best Master, but the writers had less of a clue about how to write him properly. Sometimes it seems like the writers put him in the story because the villain they were going to use wasn't as menacing as they wanted, or they wanted a villain that audiences would immediately know was a threat.

Too bad Eric Roberts didn't have a goatee, or else some fans might have accepted him moe in the role. I liked his portrayal enough to accept him as the latest incarnation.
Anybody know why the Master is in such a terrible state as of 'The Deadly Assassin'? Did he try to regenerate into a 13th body and fail? And if so, just how accident prone could the Master be if Roger Delgado was the 12th Master? Maybe this explains why he never kills the Doctor; he wants him to use up his remaining regenerations so they'll be even!

Read 'The Dark Path' apparently. I'll post back in a while, I'm just off to read it (I've just read Eternity Weeps in 2 hours, so I might be back sooner than you think).

To answer Steve, I've heard theories that the Master had better control over his regenerative process than the Doctor did and the Master pretty much kept his usual (Delgado) appearance when he regenerated. Add that to the fact that we don't know how much time actually passed for the Master between his encounters with the Doctor and we could have been seeing a different incarnation of the Master (Delgado) almost every time he appeared in the show.

If the Master did try to regenerate into a 13th body prior to "The Deadly Assassin," he must have had a terrible strain on his regenerative system. Azmael's 13th body looked fine in "The Twin Dilemma" (remember, Azmael had already regenerated for the last time, even though he did it again to sacrifice himself and Mestor).

My understanding was that the Master had reached the end of his 13 lives - and he had gone beyond the point of the 13th body's life and was decaying, hanging on to life by a thread, unable to regenerate any more. He should have been a corpse but he was a living one instead.
Ryan - he could do his 12th regeneration into his 13th body fine - it's trying to do it a 13th time, to get a 14th life is the bit Time Lords can't do, like Azamail in The Twin Dilemma

My understanding was that the Master had reached the end of his 13 lives - and he had gone beyond the point of the 13th body's life and was decaying, hanging on to life by a thread, unable to regenerate any more. He should have been a corpse but he was a living one instead.
Ryan - he could do his 12th regeneration into his 13th body fine - it's trying to do it a 13th time, to get a 14th life is the bit Time Lords can't do, like Azmael in The Twin Dilemma.

Darn it, Dark Path doesn't explain it, but I think McIntee originally intended to explain that when the master fell into the darkheart (a black hole thing, he used up his remaining regenerations as he escaped). Since the book as it is leaves the Master desperately trying to escape, this is probably as good an explanation as any.

I don't like the explanation that the Master stayed in one body. It doesn't fit very well with any other evidence we've seen.

My understanding is that, after Delgado, he regenerated several times and by the time the Doctor caught up with him in The Deadly Assassin, he was hanging on by a thread at the end of his 13th life.
Think about it - the Master does so many fiendiesh (and sstupid) things there's a good chance he'll go through his bodies more quickly.

Chris - I'm aware of that. That's what I said. Azmael's last alloted regeneration went fine. Trying to do it again killed him. He'd already fouled out, as it were.

Getting back to the Master, he does seem like the type to stay with a certain look if he can. Note Tremas' look after the Master bonded with him. The only one who doesn't fit the goateed profile was Bruce the paramedic from the telemovie, but the Master had other priorities more pressing than altering Bruce's appearance at the time.

Gah! There's too much conjecture. There's no evidence the Master did keep a similar appearance throughout his lives, no evidence he didn't either. No evidence he was the Meddling Monk, no evidence he wasn't either and so on. Maybe the novels shed some light on all this, but I don't read the novels.

I give up. I'm going back to the "Timelash" board and complaining about tinsel some more. :)

So how could the Timelords nonchallantly offer him a whole new regeneration cycle? If they could do it, surely the Master would try to get it on his own after having failed to do the task they asked him. (Come to think of it, it's interesting that he chose to try to kill the Doctor instead of saving him and getting the new cycle. It might have been a better story if the Doctor was about to die somehow and the Master stepped in to save him at the last minute, walking away with a new regeneration cycle.)

The Timelords might have been bluffing--afterall they didn't offer much proof or explanation--but that's a mighty thin story device. (Of course, it was a mighty thin story.)

Well, the "offering of a new life cycle" might also make you wonder why Borusa is so keen on immortality - I mean, they offer it to a notorious renegade like the Master but not to Borusa who has done Gallifrey great service?
Ryan - I understood your bit about Azmael, I was confused by the 12 into 13/13th into 14th bit about the Master.

My fault on that. Too much about Doctor Who is hard to write about without bringing about confusion. At least we haven't brought in personal pronouns when talking about regeneration a la "The Two Doctors." "I'll never forgive himself!" Oy.

Ok, here goes for a fullish explanation (I got some of this off www.nitronine.earth.uni).

1st incarnation of the Master is the one who goes to the Pyrodonian Academy with the Doctor.

2nd incarnation is the Delgado incarnation (actually this could be his first, but it seems reasonable that he would have regenerated at least once. Meets the 2nd Doctor in the MA Dark Path, when he calls himself Koschei (which the Doctor recognises, so presumably it is the name he used when he knew the Doctor. At this point he is not the evil Master as we know him. The implication in Dark Path is that he is driven over he edge by the events that occur in the book- he believes his female companion Ailla is dead (when she is in fact a timelord and regenerates), and destroys the Teriptil species in the hope that he can restore her to life.

The events at the end of Dark Path leave the Master trapped in a black hole. This is what really motivates his desire for revenge on the Doctor. The length of time it takes him to escape implies that he may have used up several regenerations, either controlled to give him the same appearance (unlikely in the circumstances), or some how lost with out actually being used (regenerative energy being sucked into the black hole, or used to keep his TARDIS stable).

The Delgado Master of the Pertwee era is then near his last incarnation (note the TVM line 'I've wasted all my lives because of you Doctor'), probably in his 12th. We can assume that all the Pertwee/Master stories happen chronologically. The dying Master in The Deadly Assasin is the 13th incarnation (he may have started off normal, and had a severe accident, or it may have been a very unstable regeneration). Alternatively, you him as the disfigured Delgado incarnation (making him the 13th).

The Master in the Keeper of Traken is presumably the same version as in Assasin, and in that story, he takes over Tremas somehow, making the Ainley Master the 14th.

Again, all the Ainley stories might as well be chronological, except the 5 Doctors, which might happen after Planet of Fire, the Master being rescued by the Timelords at the last second..

The Ainley Master somehow escapes the events of 'Survival' and returns in 'First Frontier', where he uses Tzun technology to give him the ability to regenerate again. Ace later kills him, and he regenerates into the 15th incarnation. Presumably this is the one put on trial by the Daleks in the TVM. He apparently survives it using a technology allowing him to escape in snake form (there is a fuller explanation in The 8 Doctors), taking over the body of Bruce, who is the 16th incarnation (or 17th if you count the snake).

That's as good an explanation as I can think of.

If I remember correctly, we last see the Delgado Master in Frontier In Space where he was working with the Daleks, and he might have used up a few regenerations trying to escape from them, if they were unhappy with what happened in that story.

In 'Legacy of the Daleks', Susan shoots the Delgado Master with the tissue compressor eliminator, but as he's holding a matter transmuter at the time he goes all poached-egg-eyeballs instead of shrinking. Then Goth finds him. Though personally I'm not inclined to believe a word of John Peel's.

Well, actually that would fit with my proposed timeline (mostly nicked I have to say), if the Pertwee/Delagdo stories feature him on his 13th incarnation.

John Peel smells though.

(Well not the DJ one. Actually, faintly amusing story. Some sad fanboy (or girl) sent in a letter to the wrong John Peel on his BBC Radio 4 show, allegedly from a Chris Cwej.)

Is it possible the Master used some sort of regenerator device as used by Mawdryn and cronies to get to his ghoulish state in The Deadly Assassin?

I would just like to say that Anthony Ainley is one of the nicest people on the planet. Anthony Ainley is one of the nicest people on the planet.

Well, fill us in on *why*.

Ainley was once rude about my Sepultura t-shirt. Therefore it follows logically that he is one of the least nice people on the planet.

I take it he's not a fan?

How rude? What could a nice man like that have to say to get you so riled? He is a good bloke because he's so darn normal. He watches Countdown, smiles so often and seems on a permanent high. And he has unbounded, even if it is unfounded, faith in everybody he meets. I think Lalla Ward comes across as a prim mare, but not Anthony, no.

Isn't there good and bad inside all of us?

Chris, that is why we all believe strongly that Valeyard is the Doctor....well, allright I was a little sarcastic, there. Sorry.

Sarah, I hate to say this, but I haven't heard much from Sepultura, so I don't know if they are any good or not. Myself, I prefer Megadeth in the Heavy Metal genre. However, if Ainley didn't like your t-shirt, he probably wouldn't like much of mine. Still, I like him as the Master. Having never met him, I can't say how he is personally. By the way , nice to see you again in this board.

I am not surprised about Lalla Ward, I expect no less from the aristocracy.

I don't know, I always found a little more musicality in Sepultura's music than other heavy metal music.

I think more than one meeting with someone should be required before they're labelled 'rude', or even 'polite', at that rate, and also a one on one meeting, rather than 'my friend was at a convention, and (insert name here) was not nice'. I've heard stories about Peter Davison being less nice than his Fifth Doctor, but until he tells me to get lost, I'll believe he's a nice guy.
That said, Ainley could have kept his opinion to himself about the Sepultura t-shirt, or lied and said something like, 'It's interesting, but not my kind of music.'
Been to a lot of Trek and Who conventions, myself, down through the years, and one thing I always take into consideration is that these people are just that, people who act for a living, and have given up their weekend, and might just be having personal problems in their lives at the same time, or are suffering from jet-lag, or really are into it just for the money, and are simply humouring us by visiting us, but I don't care. The fact that they came all the way to your town or my town should count for something.

'Ainley' kept on plugging his Destiny of the Doctors stint, so yes, many of them do do it for the sake of humouring us. But I don't know. Sometimes it may just be senility that drives someone to be perpetually nice. Michael Sheard is an example - he genuinely likes to feel wanted, and like so many others actors/writers etc, always has a project on hand, so maybe it just is a simple coincidence. Name one Doctor Who conventionist who does not have a living to make or a sideline to pursue or a project in the pipeline. They have a life too.

CBC: It's rare to hear another fan speak up on fans being used to a degree. This always monkeys about with my perception of a convention - that really, when they get home and make some hot chocolate and sit in their favourite chair, they roll their eyes at it all and slag the more inane fans off. I perfectly accept Lalla Ward's possible weariness of fandom. Which is why Anthony Ainley rates so highly in my opinion. Even if he has ulterior motives and suchlike, he glosses over it well. Sarah's t-shirt was a glitch in an otherwise commendable portrayal of a mad, aged showman.

If I had been in Doctor Who, I'd probably get a little narked off too - answering the same questions, signing the same video covers, perhaps even seeing the same fans. I'm not slagging off fandom, but I suppose I'm saying how small, how constricting, how dedicated it is for the guest(s). I guess I'm self-concious like that.

I incidentily wore a David Bowie t-shirt. No response whatsoever.

I was actually being a little bit frivolous when I mentioned the t-shirt incident, as I didn't take it too seriously (being used to the abuse heavy metal fans sometimes come in for).

However,

I did not approach Mr Ainley. I was a guest to one of the more minor celebrities (it really doesn't matter who) and was speaking to (IIRC) Sophie Aldred, either in hospitality or the bar or some such. Mr Ainley approached us, walked around to my back whilst staring at my garment (remarkably disconcerting) and then attempted to read the tour dates loudly using a rather superior tone. It was a silly incident and over in seconds. Maybe it was provoked by nervousness, but unfortunately it remains my abiding memory of the man himself.

Having said that, CBC, I would not dream of labelling Mr Ainley rude or polite based on that single incident. My original post was really meant to be tongue in cheek. Sometimes I guess I'm a little too dry; it has landed me in trouble before now. I have a great deal of admiration for the work and enthusiasm guests put into their appearances at conventions.

Luiner - it's lovely to have the time to be able to peruse and enjoy once more! Old Megadeth or new Megadeth?

Hmmm, maybe he was trying to introduce himself to you but was nervous and fumbled it. Either that or he had too much to drink.

Still, it must be strange to be a star of such a popular series. All those fans and adulation for what you do for a living. Expecting you to be exactly like the character you play. Remembering odd trivia about something you did years ago.

Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind a lot of fans (especially female) for what I do for a living. Unfortunately my job is not nearly as a glamourous. Sigh.

Sarah, I like both old and new Megadeth, but my favourite album...er...I mean CD (can't get used to this new fangled terminology) is Rust in Peace. I've worn my arms out while playing air guitar with that one. Being an old punk fan, I also enjoyed their rendition of Anarchy in the UK from an earlier album.

Ah, if only I had a Tardis. Forget fighting Cyberman or Daleks. I just would like to go back to the late '70s or early '80s to see concerts of the Pistols or the Clash. Even see Rush in their prime or AC/DC before Bon Scott died. And Kate Bush when she was touring in '78 - '79.

Sarah; hope I didn't sound rude, myself, in my comments. It's the curse of the written word; sarcasm and honest remarks aren't always easy to differentiate. Sorry if it sounded like I was picking on you. Just putting my 2 cents in. Have a good day.

CBC - no offence was taken, rest assured! I was more concerned that readers of the board thought I had formed a genuine opinion of Mr Ainley from one isolated incident. Hey - I'm pretty shallow, but I'm not THAT shallow! Thanks just the same.

Luiner - that sounds like a superb tour in the TARDIS! I like Peace Sells, myself, though RIP is an excellent album with some fantastic rhythm guitar.

Sorry about that too.

Just read the transcript of Tom Baker's first on-line chat on the Radio Times website (http://www.chat.beeb.com). Funny, as is all of Baker's stuff. What struck me interesting was a comment he made to a question "would you consider acting in a new episode of Doctor Who?" Baker said he would, but he'd want to play the Master! His reason? He always thought the Doctor and Master were two sides of the same coin.

So, put your fanfic brains into overdrive, ladies and gentlemen. Can you imagine a Master that looked just like the 4th Doctor? Sure would explain "Face of Evil."

Tom Baker has often said he would considering returning to Doctor Who, as long as it was done in a completely new and exciting way for him.
I reckon Big Finish should offer him the chance of doing an audio adventure where he got to play every part - that might interest him.

It would be kind of scary if the Master offered a Jelly Baby.

Chris, Baker also says in the chat that he has been offered a chance to do an Audio Adventure, but so far hasn't liked any of the scripts he's read. It may just be a matter of time.

I got lost the other day and found myself driving past a Delgado Road.

There's also a band called The Delgados. Does this word actually mean anything in another language?

In The Avengers episode Stay Tuned, Roger Delgado played a man named Kreer. Supposedly in the book First Frontier, The Master is disguised as a Colonel Kreer. Hmmmmmm, The Doctor & The Avengers in the same universe?

If there can be Cyber-MEN, there can also be Cyber-NAUTS in the same universe.

Come Cybernaut, join our battle to conquer the universe.

whoosh

(Cyberleader's head flies to the other side of the room)

For those who don't know this, Roger Delgado died in a car accident in Europe.

He & Ainley are "neck & neck" for being the best "Master"

I don't know, I felt Peter Pratt had some merit in The Deadly Assassin.

Certainly. The disfigured Master added some panache to the story.

Whoa, Chris! If you think Peter Pratt was such a good Master, does that mean you'd actually put him ahead of Delgado or Ainley as your second-favourite Master?

Funny how no-one's rated Eric Roberts in this discussion yet. Is he ranked between Peter Pratt and Gordon Tipple? I think Jonathon Pryce comes after Delgado and Ainley myself. The only thing Roberts did well was the 'This is an ambulance!' line. Oh, and when he chucks up acidic goop.

I merely said Peter Pratt had some merit. I don't recall him doing any of that over the top baddie laughing.
I note no one's mentioned Geoffrey Beevers in The Keeper of Traken.

pryce? pryce? you have got to be kidding the us travisty is the worst mistake in who history, granted some of the novels are ok come on is there anyone out there who thinks the movie is real who? i mean come on the doctor half human? the master is really a snake? the kissing of a companion? the doctor regeneing after he dies?if anyone can give logiacal anwsers as to how any of the above does not contridict the tv show i will be grateful. oh and don't say the half human thing was why he kept coming to earth that was explained by the doctor programing the tardis to come back to earth over and over to make sure the hand of omega was safe (see remerance of the daleks)

Pryce wasn't in the telemovie, omnidragon, it was Eric Roberts. Jonathan Pryce was in the spoof The Curse of the Fatal Death.

As for your many questions about the telemovie, many of them are addressed on the relevant telemovie board, under "Doctor Who: Movies".

Pratt's my absolute FAVOURITE Master. His evil is more believable than Ainley's, Roberts', or even Delgado's at some points. He is a Master mentally and physically consumed by his hatred for the Doctor, and his brash actions and hatred have led to his own physical decay. Brilliant.
For the record, I'm of the opinion that Delgado was the first Master and Pratt is the 13th, between that we have no idea what happened (ignoring 'Legacy of the Daleks').

This follows on from a previous posting, but in the same way we call the Doctors things like The First Doctor, the Sixth Doctor etc, shouldn't we also terms the Master incarnations similarly? So, then...

Delgado would the First Master. This is in the same way the First Doctor is termed the First Doctor, despite our not being 100% that he was indeed the first. He was the first Master on-screen, so that would make sense. Would Peter Pratt be actually considered a Master, or a mid-regenerative husk perhaps? Perhaps he should be called something else? Would Ainley be the Third Master? Then Eric Roberts would be the Fourth, even though he is post-alloted regenerations and everything and would, if we were being thoroughly accurate, (which we aren't, because we are, after all, only going by screen incarnations), be Body #14. Perhaps.

It would keep the actors straight, but it doesn't really address the fact that the Master's personality never really changed, unlike the Doctor's.

What about Geoffrey Beevers' Master in The Keeper of Traken?
And that guy that played the Master for about two seconds before the Daleks exterminated at the start if the telemovie?

Well, the Keeper of Traken Master is _supposed_ to be the same as the Deadly Assassin Master (give or take a little energy from the Eye of Harmony) so I suppose the fact they were played by different actors doesn't matter, any more than the Doctors' stunt doubles count as extra Doctors. Don't ask me who the exterminated-by-very-squeaky-Daleks person was - The Eight Doctors, Prime Time and First Frontier have left me extremely confused about the Master's post-Survival state.

Mike - it's never occurred to me to wonder why the Master's evil all the time! Of course nowadays he's nicking bodies rather than regenerating properly, so his ee-vuhl soul will remain the same as ever, but it's amazing that he managed to get through regenerations 1-13 (assuming that Koschei was #1 as I can't face reading The Dark Path due to the words 'David A McIntee' on the cover) without once accidentally turning into a nice guy. He must have had a lot more control over his regenerations than the Doctor, psychologically as well as physically.

Perhaps what the Master needs is to realize the true meaning of Christmas, so his hearts could grow to five times their sizes, and lift a giant sleigh filled with presents above his head, and...oh, wait, that's the Grinch.
If we're going to discuss why the Master is always evil, we should also note that the Doctor (barring that Valeyard business) is always good. I'd assume that the master is always evil because he keeps losing to the Doctor; also, ask any actor and they'll always say that playing an evil person is usually more fun than playing the goodie, so you can imagine the pleasure the Master gets from actually performing evil acts, as opposed to an actor pretending to be bad.
I read 'The Dark Path' recently, and Edje seems to have gotten it right when he said that it seems like the Master used up one life-time after another trying to escape. Does anybody know that that's what David A. McIntee intended?

Well, the Doctor is generally good but, as can be seen with the bad behavior of the 6th Doctor, he does have some fluctuations. The Master, on the other hand, is pure evil from "The Dark Path" on. And he wasn't really such a nice guy in "The Dark Path."

I got the impression that the Master used up at least one lifetime getting out the black hole, but that's about it. It's possible that he didn't have to regenerate at all; what McIntee was clumsily trying to portray was the slowing down of time that occurs inside the event horizon of a black hole.

Hey Emily, 'Dark Path' is cool, forget the words 'David A. McIntee' on the front, just use liquid paper or something and write another author's name over it that you like. It's a good book.

My take on the Master situation.

Koschei - we just don't know if he is the first or not, but this *is* Delgado. I got the implication that the Master may have been able to regenerate but still keep his features intact, not just from 'Dark Path' but from somewhere else I can't quite remember as well, might have been 'Face of the Enemy'. Personally, I don't like the fact that this could be the Master immediately prior to Pratt, despite what 'Legacy of the Daleks' may say.

13th Master - Pratt and Beevers. I dunno, I found Pratt's Master to *not* be the exact same character as Delgado, Pratt was more consumed by hate and all that, no where near the suave and charming Master of Delgado.

14th Master - the stolen body of Ainley. Haven't read 'Prime Time' but I take it that it contradicts the NAs, sounds typical of Tucker, considering he changed Ace's last name too. But, hang on... does anyone know if 'Prime Time' contradicts 'The Eight Doctors'? I think it does, cause 'Eight Docs' has the Master going straight from 'Survival' to the TV Movie.

15th Master - The New Adventures Master, seen in 'First Frontier' and 'Happy Endings', (and, I suppose, the beginning of the TV Movie, as portrayed by Gordon Tipple).

16th Master - the stolen body of Eric Roberts.

17th Master - The Master (I assume) who was seen recently in the DWM Comics. I dunno much about this incarnation, because I haven't read many DW Comics.

17th Master - just call him "the bald one".

Wasn't the Pratt Master seen regenerating at the end of The Deadly Assasin... so is the Beevers' version a half-regenerated Master or something, after the Doctor foiled his plans at the end of Assassin?

Am I the only one to notice the differences in personalities of Delgado's Master and Ainley's Master.

Sure, they were both into evil schemes to control the universe, but Delgado's Master was more chummy with the Doctor. Sure, he may end up killing Jo or the Doctor, but by golly, at least he was courteous about it. It was more of a game between him and the third Doc. And the Doctor certainly treated him much better than later regenerations. Asking for leniency at his trial, of his mortal enemy? They definitly like each other, back then.

It wasn't until later they started to hate each other and the Master would go out of his way to kill the Doctor.

Eric Roberts Master had a bit of a different personality too - he seems to have swallowed a ham somewhere along the line.

Would someone mind telling me all about the 'bald' Master from the comics, ie. how did he survive on from the telemovie, what happened in the comics, etc, etc.
Thanks.

Essentially, Grace Holloway researched the venom the Master spat on her in the telemovie, thinking it was Time Lord tissue.
Combined with some great entity the consumed emotions or something in the story, the Master resurrected himself, thanks to Grace's research.

So it's not actually the Master who fell into the Eye of Harmony, but more a clone/copy?

Chris has got it wrong, though it's an understandable mistake. It first became apparent that the Master was back in the story he's referenced, but the truth about the Master's return wasn't made clear until a later story. I was going to check my DWMs to get the precise details last night, but I forgot.
I've just written myself a note about it, so I should be able to post the facts tomorrow.

Hmmm... yes, well, let's face it, the comics didn't make it too clear to me how we was resurrected. He just was, like in all those 80s Who stories.

It's all explained in issue 293. The Eye of Harmony spat him out into the vortex, where he would have died, had he not attracted the attention of Esterath, a powerful being seeking two combatants for a contest on which the fate of the multiverse depended. Seeing in the Master's rage the sort of strength for which he had been searching, Esterath revealed the purpose of his quest and rehoused the Master in a recently-vacated body while he went off in search of the Doctor.
Those are the bare essentials, at any rate. There's a lot more information related to the story arc of which this story is the conclusion, but the above summary should be enough information for everyone who doesn't follow the comic strip.

And again it went over my head. Took me three reads of that description to get the gist of it -no wonder I missed it when reading the comic.

CBC, you can't just casually dismiss 'this Valeyard business' (much as I'd like to). That's one Doctor who is plain evil. Plus the fact that *groan* Grandfather Paradox is supposed to be the Doctor *groans again, just for good measure*. Well, I suppose we can put that one down to infection by Faction Paradox's virus on Dust. That still leaves Colin 'tee hee hee, watch them dissolve in acid' Baker, not to mention Sylvester 'which planet shall I blow up today' McCoy. And William 'Sod the cavemen, sod the Thals, I'm the only one who matters' Hartnell didn't exactly get off to a good start, either. Basically, the Doctor is very changable over regenerations, with enormous potential for good and evil - like Romana and Borusa, and unlike the 'let's always be evil despite the fact that its cost me life and life, the Doctor always beats me and oops, I've accidentally wiped out the universe' Master.

Grandfather Paradox aint the Doctor. It isn't 100 % him in 'Ancestor Cell' anyway, thankfully the authors left the possibility that it was merely a 'false projection'. Whatever that means.

If I remember correctly Delgado and Pertwee were
something like best buds which is why their
Master/Doctor relationship was the way it was.

Wouldn't it be fun if the unnamed person pulling
the Suliban strings in the far future in Enterprise turned out to be The Master?YEah,I know
not likely to happen,still be fun!

Enterprise - that means Star Trek, doesn't it? Yuck, yuck, yuck, burn the blasphemer for even THINKING about a Who/Trek crossover!

It's not REAL Star Trek, Emily. Enterprise is Pseudo-Star Trek, like Voyager & the Gold Key comics version of Star Trek. Not something to be confused with the real thing.

\OFF TOPIC RESPONSE POST

KAM, care to trek (no pun intended) to an Enterprise board where you can explain that reasoning? I'm very curious as to what exactly people mean when they say that Enterprise isn't Star Trek.

\END OFF TOPIC RESPONSE POST

Sorry, folks, move along, nothing to see here?

KAM, care to trek (no pun intended)

Oh, please. You expect me to believe that that was a PU (Pun Unintended) rather than a PI (Pun Intended)? Do you normally ask people to trek places? Fess up. You did intend that then felt embarrassed about it, right?

Here's a thought. Could the Delgado Master possibly be different incarnations all by himself? That is, is it possible that the Delgado look is not just the first Master but also all the non-extended regenerations? I'm thinking of Romana who could control her appearance while regenerating. Perhaps it's just the Doctor, or only certain Time Lords, that can't, possibly something to do with those looms.

Brilliant! Yes, why shouldn't he be? It would certainly explain away the problem of how so many previous regenerations managed to get themselves killed off so fast without us (and, more importantly, the Doctor) encountering them.

The Deadly Assassin novelisation does claim that the Master used up his previous lives disguising himself and things, but a) novelisations aren't canon, and b) the Master is pretty good at disguise, he didn't need to sacrifice an entire life every time he wanted to pop into UNIT HQ as an electrician or whatever.

In Lungbarrow a member of the Doctor's House regenerated into an exact copy of the First Doctor in order to commit murder, so Romana's not the only one (she may be one of the 'Newblood Houses who change their bodies as often as their clothes' (Christmas on a Rational Planet), so wouldn't count).

And - unlike the Doctor's drastically changing temperament - the Master's eevuhl personality remains the same whatever body he's in, so there's no reason for us to spot the difference. It's a pity the Ainley body is a Trakenite, non-regenerative one, otherwise this excuse could have done for his constant after-death appearances too.

The only trouble is, whenever the Delgado Master is forced to regenerate it's no doubt under emergency conditions (don't ask me what keeps killing him off, as the Doctor seems signally unable to do so) so it might be difficult to exert the control required to get an identical form.

The Daleks were rumoured to have exterminated the Delgado Master, after the events of "Frontier In Space", according to dialogue in "The Deadly Assassin", thus reducing the Master to the state shown in said story.
It would seem that the Delgado-era master keeps getting "backstabbed" by his "allies", or they find out he's planning to do the same to them, & strike first...

There isn't any reference to the Daleks or the events of 'Frontier in Space' in 'The Deadly Assassin'. The only explanation in the dialogue for the Master appearance is a reference to the end of his regenerative cycle. The whole Daleks-exterminated-the-Master business seems to have been a fan invention, though later recycled as one of the barmier plot points in the TVM.

Those of you who don't read Outpost Gallifrey regularly (http://www.gallifreyone.com) will be surprised to hear that Anthony Ainley, the 2nd Master, has died. He passed away on May 3rd, of an undisclosed illness. The story in the London Independent says that he'd been ill for some time.

How sad!

"An undisclosed illness" could lead to some unsavory speculation.

That's 2 tragic deaths for 2 people who played The Master.

Rest in Peace, Anthony.

I'll miss your sinister laugh.

Sad to hear we've lost another major actor from the series. It would have been cool to see him back once more, even if only to regenerate part way through the story into a new Master.
I'll miss him; he was so much a part of '80's Who.

Certainly was a surprise to me! Pleased to note, though that he recorded a commentary track for "Keeper Of traken" with Sutton and Waterhouse. He was negotiating to do more "Master type" stories. We can only think of what could have been....

A cosmos without Ant Ainley scarcely bears thinking about...

Was he in any of the Audio Adventures?

no he was not in the audios big finish asked him but he wanted to much money and control so they coundn't use him. shame really but as least big finish did come up with a reason why their master wsa the rotton/deformed version

I'm shocked at the Master's greed! (Admittedly I shouldn't be, he is the Master after all. On the other hand he didn't seem to show any more of an interest in money than the Doctor did.) I assume you're talking about pre-'Dust Breeding' negotiations? Cos if it was 'Master' then it would be understandable. I'd want a few million quid AND total control to rip up the script (and script writer) if I was gonna appear in THAT.

It looks like RTG has reneged on his claim that he wouldn't bring back the Master. He is back in series three.

One thing though. The news item at OG has one of those 'click here for spoiler' thingies, and I wish I hadn't clicked on it. It gave away more than I expected. That's my fault, but I'm just warning anyone who might want to savour the suspense. I haven't given away anything that their headline didn't.

Still, while I've criticised RTD here and there, I'm glad the Master is coming back during his tenure, because the character desperately needs some emotional depth.

I'm just hoping that doesn't translate to a sexual Master. I don't want them make him a rapist, or worse yet, the Mastur.

SPOILERS FOR SEASON THREE

Yeah, I'm a bit annoyed with Outpost Gallifrey too (and, now you mention it, with the return of the Master but never mind, I'm sure I'll love him. I mean love to hate him. Whatever). Yeah, yeah, I too clicked on the spoiler, mea culpa, but usually 'spoiler' on OG means 'Someone may have spotted a Henrik's sign in the background during filming!!!' or something that doesn't completely ruin a major twist. And I'm really worried about this 'Professor' person, how many Time Lords ARE there running round? Cos frankly I loved it when they were all dead bar our Doctor.

It sounds as if the Professor is the Master in disguise, but he dies and regenerates into this bloke from "Life on Mars".

You have to figure that since the Daleks managed to survive the Time Wars (and in very large numbers), Time Lords have found a way to survive, too.

Well, the existence of the Master doesn't mean the rest of the Time Lords survived. Somehow I doubt the Master was involved with the Time War against the Daleks, even if they did exterminate him.

*Starting* the Time War, that's another story. If I were writing the show, that's how I'd go. He's got vendettas against both sides and managed to get the Doctor mixed up with it. If one side won, he got victory over the losers, and if both sides destroyed each other, so much the better. Yeah, I'd defiantly do a story where the Doctor discovers the Master somehow started it.

The Doctor's comment about knowing the Time Lords are all dead because he'd feel them needs some explaining, but it wouldn't take much.

So what we got so far is:
Series one: Return of the Daleks
Series two: Return of the Cybermen, plus Daleks.
Series three: Return of the Master, plus Daleks.
This is really by-the-numbers, but heck, I'm still enjoying it.

I keep waiting for the Ice Warriors to return. Or perhaps Yartek, leader of the alien Voord

You forgot Broton, Warlord of The Zygons(tm), Mike....

It looks like RTG has reneged on his claim that he wouldn't bring back the Master.

Oi! Mind your language when speaking of Our Lord. RTG does not renege. You should have studied His holy words more closely - no doubt there was a get-out clause somewhere. The way there was when He said that if the Doctor and Rose ever kissed the programme would die on its feet...

It sounds as if the Professor is the Master in disguise, but he dies and regenerates into this bloke from "Life on Mars".

Brilliant! Yes, that totally makes sense and suddenly I'm way more cheerful that we won't be tripping over Time Lord renegades every 2.4 seconds, a la the old series.

And suddenly I'm so excited about seeing the Master again!!! Sure, he has been known to be a totally cliched bore, but this is THE NEW SERIES, the Master will be EVEN GREATER than Delgado's existential priest, and a million miles away from that Magna Carta-messing twerp with the French accent - never mind the beardless freak/snake...

You have to figure that since the Daleks managed to survive the Time Wars (and in very large numbers), Time Lords have found a way to survive, too.

Well, obviously on Nitcentral we've been saying as much for YEARS, but try telling that to the Doctor...(come to think of it, Eccy may have been utterly desolate at it 'feeling like there's no one there' but I reckon Tennant gets a kick out of being the the ultimate authority in the universe, the Lonely God, etc etc...he may not have been over the moon to find survivors even if they WEREN'T the Master.)

Ooh, something's just struck me...the Master's gonna REGENERATE!!!!!!!! As if he hadn't used up all his regeneration cycle and then some. So...ta daaaaaaaaaaaaaa! - RTG doesn't give a toss about that thirteen lives nonsense!!!! Alright, it's not as if I was SERIOUSLY worried that He'd kill off the programme the moment Number Thirteen keeled over, but it's rather nice to have confirmation of this, especially given the mayfly lifespans of the last couple of Docs.

Well, the existence of the Master doesn't mean the rest of the Time Lords survived. Somehow I doubt the Master was involved with the Time War against the Daleks, even if they did exterminate him.

True, but that'd leave dozens of other Renegades who also couldn't be bothered to fight still on the loose.

*Starting* the Time War, that's another story. If I were writing the show, that's how I'd go. He's got vendettas against both sides and managed to get the Doctor mixed up with it. If one side won, he got victory over the losers, and if both sides destroyed each other, so much the better. Yeah, I'd defiantly do a story where the Doctor discovers the Master somehow started it.

Wow. But wouldn't it be rather...risky? The Master's not a nice guy but he does want a universe to mess around with...by the sound of it the Time War could easily have destroyed the fabric of space and time, and SURELY the Master would be a BIT more careful about such things since Logopolis...?

The Doctor's comment about knowing the Time Lords are all dead because he'd feel them needs some explaining, but it wouldn't take much.

Ironically it needs a bit more explanation for the Master than for the Doc happening to miss any other Time Lord cos of that 'in many ways, we have the same mind' nonsense in Logopolis.

I keep waiting for the Ice Warriors to return. Or perhaps Yartek, leader of the alien Voord

Waiting in hope or waiting in horror? Ice Warriors are my second-favourite to return - want the Sontarans most, only given that Smith and Jones's space rhinos look identical to Sontarans in every way (apart from, um, being rhinos. Obviously.) that's unlikely to happen. (Though of course the Abzorbaloff did look 'a bit Slitheen' and they can always use the twin planets gag again.)

I regret (but not THAT much) that Yartek Leader of the Alien Voord is unavailable, having been destroyed when the Conscience blew up.

Since RTD lopped 56 years off the Doctor's age (more if you count the novels), then he could just as easily erase some of the Master's regenerations. Of course, remember that the NA "First Frontier" showed the Master getting a brand new set of regenerations.

Yartek, Leader of the Alien Voord destroyed? Nonsense! I'm sure, just like scads of other ne'er do wells, he found a way to escape.

Sontarans? Bah! Give me Ice Warriors any day. Clones are dull.

remember that the NA "First Frontier" showed the Master getting a brand new set of regenerations.

No, I don't remember. In fact, the things I DO remember about that torture-by-boredom in the shape of a book could be written on the back of a postage stamp.

Sontarans? Bah! Give me Ice Warriors any day.

The new series moves at a considerably faster pace than the old. Unless the Ice Warriors learn to speak - and move - a bit quicker, I doubt the new series could be bothered with them. Or the Sea Devils, come to think of it.

Clones are dull.

Clones are NOT dull! They're scary. Alright, so the terror of their breeding-at-a-million-a-minute-ness (or was it four million a minute?) was somewhat reduced when we never saw more than three of 'em, but special effects these days could produce a Sontaran army that even YOU would quake at.

The Doctor could still be last of the Time Lords. Technically, the Master hasn't recently had a Gallifreyan body, nor is able to regenerate the normal Time Lord Way - the Master has had a Trakenite body, then was a snake, then had the body of an Earthling.

The Doctor's notorious for lying about his age... so 900 instead of 953 or higher is akin to people in their 40s who claim to be 39 still etc.

The Doctor could still be last of the Time Lords. Technically, the Master hasn't recently had a Gallifreyan body

Yeah, but technically the Doctor may not exactly be a pure-blooded Time Lord either. We can't (much as we'd like to) completely ignore 'I'm half human, on my mother's side', not to mention those 'I am so much more than just another Time Lord' hints in Seasons Twenty-Five and Six, and Lungbarrow's claims about him being the Other (a Gallifreyan but not a Time Lord, right?)'s reincarnation. And the Doc could easily have been contaminated by always having humans around at the delicate point of regeneration - he even picked up Rose's accent last time, who knows what else she's given him? And then of course there's Adventuress of Henrietta Street, where the Doctor cut his ties to Gallfrey and bound himself to Earth - by marriage AND by getting his heart ripped out...

The Doctor's notorious for lying about his age...

I don't think he's LYING, as such. I think there's something way more complicated going on. Just don't ask me what...

OK, the drumming.

The Master's been hearing incessant drumming in his head since he was EIGHT. Leaving aside the obvious absurdity of him EVER being a...y'know...CHILD...why has he NEVER mentioned this before???

Why did we not hear Delgado cry 'Come, Kronos, come! Give me mastery over space and time! And stop this ******* drumming while you're at it!'? Or 'Azal, give me Earth as my plaything...and would the legendary magic-science of the Daemons happen to have a cure for tinnitus?' Did Ainley ever ONCE say 'Oops, sorry I've accidentally wiped out the universe, but at least I might get a bit of peace and quiet at last'? Or 'A new body! A new body, at last...oh **** there go the drums'? Did Roberts ever declaim 'I need the Doctor's body...cos it doesn't have an inbuilt percussion instrument'?

No. Sadly this is not the case.

Julie Gardner says it would be RUDE not to bring the Sim Master back!!! And how right she is! I'm so happy! Alright, so RTG implied otherwise, but then He's always lying to us about the Master, bless Him.

he even picked up Rose's accent last time, who knows what else she's given him?

Theric beam locators perhaps?

Possible spoilers for End of Time.

So did the Delgado/Pratt/Ainley Master hear the drumming or just the new series Master?

Option 1. They did, and they have ever since they were 8. (or: He has ever since he was 8.)

Option 2. They didn't. The timelocked Time Lords interferred with history as we saw it, retconning the Jacobi/Simm Master.

Option 3. They didn't. The drumming was only heard by the Time War-era, resurrected Master. But this means the Time Lords resurrected him as a child which is at odds with their reason for bringing him back.

Option 4. It doesn't matter.

I'm thinking Option 2. Delgado, Ainley and co never mentioned the drumming cos they never heard it. Rassilon cheated and stuck it into the brat's head, whereupon history got rewritten so Jacobi and Simm not only heard it, they thought they'd always heard it.

Which makes the Master a baddie without the excuse of "the Time Lords made me do it." So much for the Doctor getting his friend back, but then I suppose we knew that would never happen. New Who needs all the villains it can get (enough Daleks already).

So The End of Time was billed as the FINAL confrontation in the Doctor/Master 'enmity of ages'? I'd put a fiver on this NOT being the case.

'Wonder what I'd be without you' - pretty much the same old Doctor, I'd assume. Unless you believe that godawful audio 'Master'.

Stunning number of 'Yes sir' 'Sorry sir' type stuff coming from the MASTERS. Just...unnatural.

'I don't need him! Any second now I'll have Time Lords to spare!' Oh. Was THAT the reason the Master kept the Doc as a pet for a year instead of killing him? Not because he was the Doctor but because he was the (other) last of the Time Lords? I'm not convinced.

Why is the Master so confident about facing Rassilon and all the Time Lords in their wrath that he'll not only gleefully bring them into the universe, he'll tell them to their faces that he's gonna replace them all with replicas of himself? Yeah, I know the Master's mad and all, but he usually at least bothers to come up with a mad PLAN.

Why does he call humanity a 'mongrel little species'? What's so mongrel about us?

The Master's magic lightning-bolts seem remarkably effective against Rassilon himself, when they didn't have THAT much effect on the Doctor.

That 'Get out of the way' stuff the Doctor and Master do to each other is...pretty much perfect. There's a spark of affection - and redemption - without any hideously unconvincing Master-sees-the-error-of-his-ways nonsense.

The Master's magic lightning-bolts seem remarkably effective against Rassilon himself, when they didn't have THAT much effect on the Doctor.

Well, in both cases they knocked the victim down. I doubt Rassilon was any more seriously hurt than the Doctor was, but it sure slowed them up.

'Wonder what I'd be without you' - pretty much the same old Doctor, I'd assume.

Without the Master, the events that forced the lastest regeneration wouldn't have happened.

Hell, he might still be Tom Baker.

I doubt Rassilon was any more seriously hurt than the Doctor was, but it sure slowed them up.

I suppose...Stupid of Rassilon not to have a flak-jacket or something on - if he made a habit of vaporising his colleagues, one of them might have made a pre-emptive strike...

Without the Master, the events that forced the lastest regeneration wouldn't have happened.

Hell, he might still be Tom Baker.

God, I never thought of that...

Was it worth putting up with Davison/the wrong Baker/McCoy in exchange for getting Eccy n'Tennant?

Hmm. Probably not. I reckon if Tom had hung around we wouldn't have got the Sixteen Long and Barren Years...and in 2005 he'd've been ready to retire and hand over to his destined successor, anyway...

If the Time Lords had beamed the sound of drums into the Master's head as a child, how come his previous incarnations made no mention of it?

I still think the Master snuck out the back door, rather than being sucked away with the rest of the Time Lords. That way, they can bring him back again. However, would he still consider the Doctor an enemy?

However, would he still consider the Doctor an enemy?

I'm not sure he ever did. I don't think he ever went after the Doctor out of enmity. Mostly the Doctor just gets in the way of his plans and must be dealt with.

SPOILERS FOR END OF TIME:

If the Time Lords had beamed the sound of drums into the Master's head as a child, how come his previous incarnations made no mention of it?

Somewhere on Gallifrey Base there is a LOVELY picture of the Roberts Master in one of his poses, with the caption 'The drums were loud that day'...

Actually I don't think any of the previous Masters DID hear the drums. Frankly they weren't the types to keep any sort of suffering to themselves. So I'm thinking that as soon as Rassilon started messing around with little kiddie-Master, all his future incarnations heard the drums and had always heard the drums but until then they didn't.

I.e. history got rewritten. Like Jackie telling little-Rose her dad died alone/there was a blonde girl.

I still think the Master snuck out the back door, rather than being sucked away with the rest of the Time Lords. That way, they can bring him back again.

Oh, they'll bring the Master back one way or another regardless...but I really think if there had been the SLIGHTEST chance the Master had nipped out the back, the Doctor would have been racing round after him like a bat out of hell, with *sob* NO time to go round sacrificing himself in glass boxes....

However, would he still consider the Doctor an enemy?

Absolutely he would. That wonderful 'Get out of my way' wasn't a ludicous, unbelievable, cop-out, redemption thing, it was just one (entirely understandable, thanks to the genius of RTG) moment of sympathy between the two victims of the Time Lords. This is still the guy who topped himself rather than spend a few days (surely all he'd've needed to escape?) shut in the TARDIS with the Doctor.

I don't think he ever went after the Doctor out of enmity.

Have you SEEN The Deadly Assassin? The Master must KNOW he's seriously risking his plans (i.e. his LIFE) being screwed up by deliberately summoning the only person who invariably screws up his plans, but he does so because his overwhelming desire to see the Doctor die in humiliation at the hands of his own people is the only thing keeping him alive...

I mean, obviously the Master's in love with the Doc too (well, obviously since Sound of Drums, anyway) but he certainly hates him too. Imagine humiliating the poor darling with a dog-bowl instead of a cat-bowl.

Mostly the Doctor just gets in the way of his plans and must be dealt with.

Oh, and it's just a COINCIDENCE that said 'plans' happen to involve Earth EVERY BLOODY WEEK the moment the Doctor happens to be stuck on said planet?

...his overwhelming desire to see the Doctor die in humiliation at the hands of his own people ...

We-ell, if you're going to take something like that personally....

Koschei is from a Russian fairy tale - he might as well be named Cinderella!

That's a point - didn't Gallifrey have any fairy tales of its own he could have plagiarised? Christmas on a Rational Planet says not:

'All great myths are inspired by the organic life-cycle. The hero's quest to find his perfect mate, his struggle to build a better world for his children, his willingness to give up his life for the next generation...but Time Lords do not reproduce organically, and all their young are born from the gene-looms...Time Lords have no understanding of myths...And they have very little time for fairy-tales.'

Unfortunately RTG comes along and blows a great hole in this theory, what with a sex-obsessed Doctor AND the fairy-tale Toclafane...

Well, since the New Series has invalidated all the novels, I don't see a problem here.

From Wikipedia's entry for unmade Doctor Who serials:

'The Third Doctor's final story was to be The Final Game by Robert Sloman. The story was to feature the Master, and to reveal that he and the Doctor were two aspects of the same individual – the Doctor being the ego (the intellectual part), while the Master was the id (the instinctive, violent part). The story was to end with the Master dying in a manner which suggested that he was trying to save the Doctor's life.'

Is this TRUE? I've always had the impression - from A Celebration?? - that the big revelation would be that they're *shudders* brothers. This would be...better, but still of course nonsense. It's interesting to think of this concept reverberating through Who history though, from the existences of the Valeyard and the Dream Lord to the considerably-more-subtle equal-and-opposite thing the man in the rosette set up in Adventuress of Henrietta Street, to that final 'Get out of my way' from the Master in End of Time Part Two...

Plus, what's this nonsense about the Doctor being the intellectual part? The Master got a MUCH better degree than he did...

After Sound of Drums, I thought it would be cool to have them as brothers, but the Doctor did say they were only friends. I suppose you could refer to your brother as a friend, but it seems odd.

Oh, the Doc makes it CRYSTAL clear that 'brothers' is a REALLY stupid idea that only people who've watched too many films would come up with...

Plus in End of Time the Master refers to 'MY father's estates'.

I'm definitely sticking with the Best Friends explanation. Albeit, since the RTG era, best friends with serious homoerotic undertones.

Plus in End of Time the Master refers to 'MY father's estates'.

Oh, yes. Forgot.

Albeit, since the RTG era, best friends with serious homoerotic undertones.

Yuk. They DO NOT fancy each other!

Does the line 'Are you asking me on a date' not ring any bells...?

It was a joke! The Master's too in love with himself to look at anyone else and the Doctor was still pining for Rose.

The Doctor's thing with the Master went back about a millennium longer than his thing with Rose. And however much the Master loves himself, he loves the Doctor more, as evidenced by his desperate attempts to invade Earth/destroy the universe/whatever in order to attract the Doc's attention...

And sure, the Master may have said the dating line jokingly, but frankly it was pretty much what I was thinking after hearing the passion in the Doctor's voice during that phone call...

I'd have passion for the last of my kind (probably) if we were the last two in the universe!

You can love people without wanting sex with them - family, for example. The Doctor and the Master aren't related in any human sense, but they have some kind of fundamental link (that whole 'in many ways we have the same mind' business) which produces bone-deep mutual respect and affection, thinly masked by their surface differences.

The Master doesn't want to rip the Doctor's clothes off, and make love to him under a silvery moon for seven nights straight while volcanoes explode around them on a dying world: he wants to spend endless nights talking about everything and anything with the only person who could ever understand him, the only person whose opinion really matters, simply basking in the warm glow of the Doctor's brilliance, even as the Doctor basks in his.

After all, mere physical contact is nothing next to the communion of great minds. True, both time lords might indulge themselves in a little physical pleasure while talking, but only in the same way we humans might share a packet of crisps with our friends. The physical pleasure comes a very distant second to the intellectual, and it need not be which each other. The Doctor could easily have a quick 'dance' with Martha while the Master is busy thinking up a refutation to his latest proposition, and similarly in reverse when the Master is waiting for the Doctor's reply.

Trying to conquer the universe isn't the sanest way of saying 'let's talk', but that's Rassilon's fault.

We-ell, I'm not sure I'd get all that glowy about it. I'd have characterized their relationship as one of mutual need tinged with a certain desperateness rather than basking in each other's magnificence.

they have some kind of fundamental link (that whole 'in many ways we have the same mind' business)

Yeah - what the hell was THAT all about? Did the Doctor mean he had the same mind as EVERY Time Lord (even BEFORE they all got together for a post-mortem merging in the Matrix), or just the Master?

which produces bone-deep mutual respect and affection, thinly masked by their surface differences.

I...ah...wouldn't have put it QUITE like that...

he wants to spend endless nights talking about everything and anything with the only person who could ever understand him, the only person whose opinion really matters, simply basking in the warm glow of the Doctor's brilliance, even as the Doctor basks in his.

Well, he didn't exactly take to the idea of them whizzing round the universe together basking in each other's brilliance in End of Time...

Come to that, he actually TOPPED himself rather than spend five more minutes (surely all it would have taken him to escape) in the Doctor's company in Last of the Time Lords...

Trying to conquer the universe isn't the sanest way of saying 'let's talk', but that's Rassilon's fault.

Bloody Rassilon.

I'd have characterized their relationship as one of mutual need tinged with a certain desperateness rather than basking in each other's magnificence.

Fair enough. But WHY the mutual need? Long before the Doctor blew all the other Time Lords up (twice) the Master was invading Earth every two minutes just to get the Doctor's attention...and as early as their VERY FIRST STORY the Doctor was admitting to UNIT (who'd just suffered big losses, along with the whole of England) that he was looking forward to their next encounter...

But WHY the mutual need?

I mostly meant now, post-Time War, not all that Delgado/Ainley messing about.

Pre-war, I'd have characterized their relationship as exasperated tolerance on the Doctor's part, playing a game on the Master's part. He couldn't have mucked about with the High Council as they'd have had him, so he developed an obsession with the only person he could play with.

Well since the Moff took the helm, the "gay" agenda has been toned down. Should the Master pop up again, you can bet he and the Doctor will be "just good friends".

I would like to get more into their background. The Master's comments about them playing on his father's estate indicated they were once friends.

Kind of like how Clark Kent/Superman and Lex Luthor were friends until Luthor turned evil.

The Doctor confirmed as much when he told Martha they used to be friends. I don't want to find out too much though; it would ruin the fun, kind of like when we found out too much about the Doctor. It took McCoy to inject a bit of mystery back in (for all the good it did him).

Reading this discussion I decided to check TV Tropes Foe Yay page to see what they had to say... turns out they have a whole page just for Doctor Who Foe Yay.

Well, he didn't exactly take to the idea of them whizzing round the universe together basking in each other's brilliance in End of Time...

Because it wouldn't be reciprocal; that would have entailed the Doctor being smug at him half the time and angsting the other half, not exactly the Master's cup of tea.

The Master wants the Doctor begin by unconditionally acknowledge his brilliance. Only after that can they settle down in a mutual admiration society.

Bloody Rassilon.

Come now. Without Rassilon, there'd be no Time Lords. Instead, the Great Vampires or Rachnoss would have run amok, the Fendahl would have eaten Earth and, worst of all, there would be no Doctor. Admittedly, making the Master insane enough to destroy half the universe is not a good thing, but surely making the Doctor possible more than compensates.

WHY the mutual need?

Where else will they find intellectual peers? The Doctor enjoys the company of his companions, of course, but let's be honest, compared with the Doctor they're no smarter than the average dog, and most other Time Lords have all the personality of a wet dish cloth. There will be times when he wants more.

The only people who come anywhere close to being the Doctor's mental peers are the Master, and maybe Davros, not an attractive set of choices. Since the Master is at least the right species, it's not surprising the Doctor regards his misdeeds with fond exasperation. If only the Master were sane, what intellectual joys they could share, in between saving the cosmos and dancing with their companions, but alas - the Master's sanity was sacrificed for the greater good of Gallifrey.

From the Master's perspective, the Doctor is obviously a much better choice to obsess over than Davros, not because he's better looking, but because he's reasonably sane.

Pre-war, I'd have characterized their relationship as exasperated tolerance on the Doctor's part, playing a game on the Master's part. He couldn't have mucked about with the High Council as they'd have had him, so he developed an obsession with the only person he could play with.

You're joking! The Master could have wiped the floor with ANY High Council with both hands tied behind his back! (Hell, you don't even have to be the Master...three pieces of tin foil did it too.) Look at what happened when a 90%-dead Master staggered into the Capitol and brought it crashing down about their ears...even with the Doctor fighting to stop him. Or look at what happened when the High Council finally managed to 'capture' the Master (how DID they manage that, by the way?). They...ha ha...told him he'd been a very naughty boy and offered him a new regeneration cycle!!!!!!!!!

Well since the Moff took the helm, the "gay" agenda has been toned down. Should the Master pop up again, you can bet he and the Doctor will be "just good friends".

I'm not so sure. Of course, the entire Whoniverse HAS gone boringly heterosexual, but don't forget that Time Crash turned the Master's wife into a 'beard'. In other words, Russell T God made the Master a rabid heterosexual for the first time ever (or at least since he was courting Queen Gallea) and MOFFAT claimed that nah, the Master's gay...

I don't want to find out too much though; it would ruin the fun, kind of like when we found out too much about the Doctor.

Very true. I'm still a bit traumatised by the sight of that child-Master (of course, I'm usually traumatised by the sight of ANY children. Except Thomas Kincade Brannigan's, of course).

I decided to check TV Tropes Foe Yay page to see what they had to say... turns out they have a whole page just for Doctor Who Foe Yay.

What a FANTASTIC page! I didn't notice HALF that stuff! The Master really blows the Doctor a kiss...? And as for the lyrics of that song...!!

The Master wants the Doctor begin by unconditionally acknowledge his brilliance. Only after that can they settle down in a mutual admiration society.

But that's exactly what the Doc DID do in End of Time! He was - rather surprisingly, though you've suddenly made me understand it a lot better - being a grovelling sycophant, calling the Master 'stone cold brilliant' and saying it would be an HONOUR to travel the universe with him.

Come now. Without Rassilon, there'd be no Time Lords.

Yeah...that's Rassilon's story. You'll note that he took ALL THE CREDIT for the black hole that powered Time Lord civilisation in Deadly Assassin, despite the fact it was obviously Omega who created it - and paid the price.

Instead, the Great Vampires or Rachnoss would have run amok

I got the impression from the novels that it was the Time Lords messing around with time n'space who opened the way for the Vampires to enter our universe in the first place. And I'm sure the Fledgling Empires could have dealt with the Racnoss alone...or if not, maybe the Eternals could have leant a hand, the way they did with the Carrionites.

the Fendahl would have eaten Earth

Yeah, cos the Time Lords were just SO successful at keeping the Fendahl away from our planet...

and, worst of all, there would be no Doctor.

A cosmos without the Doctor scarcely bears thinking about. So obviously there WOULD still have been a Doctor, even if he'd had to be born a HUMAN or something instead.

Admittedly, making the Master insane enough to destroy half the universe is not a good thing, but surely making the Doctor possible more than compensates.

Oh, OF COURSE I'd blow up half the universe in exchange for the Doctor! ANY day!

Where else will they find intellectual peers?

Romana? She was the Doctor's intellectual equal but - highly pleasing to his sexist nature - deeply inexperienced in real life and prone to screaming at the top of her lungs. In short, she was PERFECT for the Doc - especially after she TOPPED herself in order to turn into someone perfect for the Doc (complete with his clothing and everything). And yet when the Time Lords snapped their fingers, the bloke who'd spent years (decades? Centuries?) running away from them to maintain HIS freedom announced that you couldn't fight Time Lords and he was gonna hand her back. His 'need' for intellectual stimulation is obviously one that can be fully satisfied by uncovering and thwarting the fiendish schemes of megalomaniacs on a regular basis. (If he REALLY wants to push himself, he can decide to do it in one night, a la Happiness Patrol.)

You're joking! The Master could have wiped the floor with ANY High Council with both hands tied behind his back!

Well, yes, I suppose, certainly in the old days. Not so sure about Rassilon's High Council though. He struck me as very formidable.

when the High Council finally managed to 'capture' the Master (how DID they manage that, by the way?)

Perhaps they finally exerted themselves in a heretofore unsuspected display of competence.

But that's exactly what the Doc DID do in End of Time! He was - rather surprisingly, though you've suddenly made me understand it a lot better - being a grovelling sycophant,

Not convincingly enough. The Master knows all about buttering people up them stabbing them in the back - Claws of Axos, for example. To convince him he was sincere, the Doctor would need to spend a few years grovelling, or do something spectacular.

I got the impression from the novels that it was the Time Lords messing around with time n'space who opened the way for the Vampires to enter our universe in the first place.

If the Gallifreyans hadn't done it, some other race would have, while attempting to become the Lords of Time: maybe the Rachnoss, maybe the Osirians, maybe we humans.

the Time Lords were just SO successful at keeping the Fendahl away from our planet...

Twelve million years isn't bad. It gave us humans enough time to evolve.

So obviously there WOULD still have been a Doctor, even if he'd had to be born a HUMAN or something instead.

One who looked like Peter Cushing, perhaps? Unfortunately, I doubt the universe would accept substitutes for the Doctor - after all, would you? - so, once it was clear that the Doctor couldn't come into being the cosmos would just say, 'there's no point existing', turn out all the stars, and fade silently away.

Yeah...that's Rassilon's story

The Doctor seems to believe it. Surely you can trust his judgement.

Romana is a passable intellectual peer, true, but you'll note that while she was with the Doctor he didn't go near the Master. The moment they split up, the Tardis took the Doctor straight to the only other person who could match wits with him. In retrospect, it's pretty obvious what the sentimental old thing was thinking.

If the Master comes back, and I'm sure he will, I hope John Simms plays him again. He's good in the role.

Yes, I like him a lot, too. It's easy to see both the Doctor and him as being of the same species. There's something slightly over the top about both of them.

Not so sure about Rassilon's High Council though. He struck me as very formidable.

Rassilon was DEEPLY scary, but even HE didn't dare to mess with the Master ('His crimes will find him out in due course' yeah, RIGHT). And any formidable member of his High Council would have disagreed with him at some point about his conduct of the War and promptly got blown to smithereens...

Perhaps they finally exerted themselves in a heretofore unsuspected display of competence.

More likely they accidentally stumbled across the Master when he was asleep. Or he just fancied a trip home, to see the look on their faces.

To convince him he was sincere, the Doctor would need to spend a few years grovelling, or do something spectacular.

Oh. Feeling quite naive here, but...I really thought the Doctor was being GENUINE with that 'you're stone cold brilliant' stuff to the Master.

If the Gallifreyans hadn't done it, some other race would have, while attempting to become the Lords of Time: maybe the Rachnoss, maybe the Osirians, maybe we humans.

I suspect you have to be REALLY stupid and REALLY self-confident and REALLY unlucky to punch a hole in space-time at exactly the wrong moment to get giant vampires swarming all over you.

the Time Lords were just SO successful at keeping the Fendahl away from our planet...

Twelve million years isn't bad. It gave us humans enough time to evolve.

Didn't the Doctor refer to the timeloop as 'criminal'? If it really HAD protected his favourite species from destruction for all that time, he would almost certainly have been less harsh.

So obviously there WOULD still have been a Doctor, even if he'd had to be born a HUMAN or something instead.

One who looked like Peter Cushing, perhaps?

No no nooooooooooooooooooo!

Unfortunately, I doubt the universe would accept substitutes for the Doctor - after all, would you?

Oh, he would be the REAL Doctor, he just wouldn't be a Time Lord if those losers had never existed. Would it matter THAT much? We didn't even know he WAS a Time Lord for his first six years on our screens. And he acts like an honorary human anyway - always hanging around our council estates, playing around with Earth girls (as the Master jealously put it), even going so far as to pretend his MUM was human, for heaven's sake...

so, once it was clear that the Doctor couldn't come into being the cosmos would just say, 'there's no point existing', turn out all the stars, and fade silently away.

I have to admit, that's at least as likely as a human Doctor.

Yeah...that's Rassilon's story

The Doctor seems to believe it. Surely you can trust his judgement.

Sure, the Doc believed the black-hole-under-the-floorboards thing, but that was because it made sense. I'm not convinced that he accepted Rassilon was the one responsible (especially given that he'd MET Omega) and Two was certainly unsure about whether Rassilon's fellow Time Lords had rebelled against his cruelty, whether he was alive or dead, etc.

Romana is a passable intellectual peer, true, but you'll note that while she was with the Doctor he didn't go near the Master. The moment they split up, the Tardis took the Doctor straight to the only other person who could match wits with him. In retrospect, it's pretty obvious what the sentimental old thing was thinking.

As Nine would say...Fantastic!

If the Master comes back, and I'm sure he will, I hope John Simms plays him again. He's good in the role.

I'd be very happy to see him back, but the Moff MIGHT find himself another Master, perfectly tailored to Matt's clumsy young/old bow tie obsessive. The way Delgado and Pertwee were so wonderful together, and Simm and Tennant. You really get that 'equal and opposite' feeling. If only Eccy hadn't gone and DIED on us quite so fast, he could have had Derek Jacobi as HIS heavyweight-respected-actor Master.

I suspect you have to be REALLY stupid and REALLY self-confident and REALLY unlucky to punch a hole in space-time at exactly the wrong moment

Five minutes watching the news is enough to confirm we humans can be mind-bogglingly stupid, we're as capable of going all 'nothing in the world can stop me now' as any Time Lord, and you have to be extremely unlucky to get Daleks just from messing around with mirrors. Combining all three is rarer, but Torchwood qualifies comfortably.

Didn't the Doctor refer to the timeloop as 'criminal'? If it really HAD protected his favourite species from destruction for all that time, he would almost certainly have been less harsh.

A few months later, the Doctor was creating time loops himself, so he obviously doesn't think they;re that criminal. Anyway, that comment was before he had all the facts. Without the timeloop, the Fendahl would have come to earth eventually, like every other evil in the cosmos, but it wouldn't have been the crippled revenant the Doctor fought: it would have been at full power, able to strip entire planets of life, and the Doctor would have had a much harder time defeating it.

More importantly, without the time loop, the Fendahl wouldn't have spent 12 million years steering human evolution, and we'd all be a bunch of pacifists, with no violent impulses. Considering how popular our planet is with alien invaders, this would not be a good thing. For a start, it'd mean no explosives for Ace, no janus thorns for Leela, and no UNIT at all.

I'm not convinced that he accepted Rassilon was the one responsible

Not the sole one responsible, but we didn't see Four telling Borusa that Rassilon was a second rate poser, taking credit for Omega's work, did we? If the Doctor thought Rassilon didn't deserve his reputation, he would have said so - he quite likes undercutting peoples pretensions.

the Moff MIGHT find himself another Master, perfectly tailored to Matt's clumsy young/old bow tie obsessive

So what would Matt's equal opposite be like? Presumably, they'd look 20 but act 90, with a quirky dress sense - a purple bowler hat and matching umbrella perhaps. Are there any actors who could carry this off?

Five minutes watching the news is enough to confirm we humans can be mind-bogglingly stupid, we're as capable of going all 'nothing in the world can stop me now' as any Time Lord, and you have to be extremely unlucky to get Daleks just from messing around with mirrors. Combining all three is rarer, but Torchwood qualifies comfortably.

*Sigh* All very true.

A few months later, the Doctor was creating time loops himself, so he obviously doesn't think they;re that criminal.

Yeah, I've never understood that. What did the Vardans do that was so bad that THE DOCTOR condemned them to eternal repetition?

Without the timeloop, the Fendahl would have come to earth eventually, like every other evil in the cosmos, but it wouldn't have been the crippled revenant the Doctor fought: it would have been at full power, able to strip entire planets of life, and the Doctor would have had a much harder time defeating it.

No doubt he WOULD have had a much harder time. And no doubt he would STILL have wiped the floor with it.

without the time loop, the Fendahl wouldn't have spent 12 million years steering human evolution, and we'd all be a bunch of pacifists, with no violent impulses.

Oh, nonsense! We'd still be NATURALLY a bunch of genocidal maniacs, plus there were plenty of other aliens to give us a push in the right - or should that be the wrong - direction.

we didn't see Four telling Borusa that Rassilon was a second rate poser, taking credit for Omega's work, did we? If the Doctor thought Rassilon didn't deserve his reputation, he would have said so - he quite likes undercutting peoples pretensions.

He USUALLY does, but this was special circumstances. For one thing he was a bit busy, coping with accusations of murdering the President, saving Gallifrey from destruction, being tortured, etc etc - and for another thing, telling your teachers they're wrong is never easy at the best of times - and Borusa obviously intimidated the hell out of the Doctor.

the Moff MIGHT find himself another Master, perfectly tailored to Matt's clumsy young/old bow tie obsessive

So what would Matt's equal opposite be like? Presumably, they'd look 20 but act 90, with a quirky dress sense - a purple bowler hat and matching umbrella perhaps. Are there any actors who could carry this off?

Come to think of it, The Moff CAN'T go that way with the Matser cos it's already been done - with the Dream Lord.

OK, let's just have Simm back. Asap.

We'd still be NATURALLY a bunch of genocidal maniacs

Not what the Doctor thought. He was quite happy to blame all our negative qualities on the Fendahl, and he's hardly ever wrong.

Special circumstance ... Borusa obviously intimidated the hell out of the Doctor.

Those weren't special circumstances, not for the Doctor. I'll concede he may have been a little intimidated, but that still leaves the question of why he didn't say anything when Borusa wasn't around - during the Five Doctors, for example, while explaining things to the assorted companions. After the other things Two said, adding there were rumours Rassilon had stolen Omega's credit would not have been out of place.

The Moff CAN'T go that way with the Master cos it's already been done - with the Dream Lord.

Unless the Dream Lord turns out to have been inspired by the Master. Time Lords do have a mental connection, it's how the Doctor knew there were no others left - so he might have subconsciously picked up what the Master's new body and personality are like.

After the other things Two said, adding there were rumours Rassilon had stolen Omega's credit would not have been out of place.

Possibly not in the same room as the ghost who can decorate his eternal resting place with your head.

Full Frontal Nerdity has some speculation regarding one of the Master's more unusual regenerations.

http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/index.php?date=2011-05-24

mmm...maybe I can convince Eric Saward to write a short story saying the Master is not really Gallifreyian but just kick ass dude from Liverpool...maybe that will sway people.

Fecking hell, that *is* scary. The Master is actually a robbing bastard scally scouser, who roams Church Street trying to get money out of students so that he can fund his intense sherry habit. A confrontation with Paul McGann would be awesome:

Master: "Ay, la. Wha' 'appened to yer accent, like?"
Doctor: "You don't understand. I am more than just a Liverpudlian."
Master: "Oh aye, kidder. Well just because you've gone all la de feckin' da doesn't mean I'm not gonna kick your fecking head in if youse don't give me the rest of your friggin' regenerations." [brandishes broken bottle]
Doctor: [crapping himself] "Oh, er... dey do dough, don't de dough! Gi's a clue Billy..." [Runs away very fast]
Master: "I dunno where youse is running to, pal. I've nicked the wheels off yer TARDIS."

From the Mark of the Rani thread:

Me: It's disgraceful! The tissue compressor eliminator is suddenly VANISHING people instead of shrinking them to the size of dolls! It just takes all the FUN out of killing!

Jep: That's the smartest thing the Master ever did.

What's the point of putting all the time and effort into hiding your presence IF YOU'RE GOING TO LEAVE A BUNCH OF SMEGGING DOLLS SAYING THE MASTER WAS HERE?????

I mean--even Jo should be able to figure out when the Master is there.

That would indeed be true (with the possible exception of Jo figuring it out)...IF the Master was indeed EVER genuinely trying to hide his presence. But let's face it, all he ever really wants to do is get the Doctor's attention. Even on those rare occasions when he just KNOWS the Doctor's appearance'll mess up his fiendish plan, so goes to the lengths of pretending to be a pacifist and hiding in a radiation suit, he STILL calls himself the Greek word for Master, just so the object of his obsession will spot him sooner or later...

'He's the personification of evil' - the Doctor on the Master in The Sea Devils. OK, so I don't expect a Pertwee story to go into the homo-erotic subtleties of their relationship, a la Sound of Drums, but this seems a distressingly banal description. And shows up even more the amorality of Pertwee, just after the Master had slaughtered half of southern England (well...in the novelisation if not the actual story) cheerily admitting to looking forward to his next visit, in Terror of the Autons.

Moderator's Note: Moved from Monsters: Time Lords section:

[The Master] may not be quite as much of a universal fact as Jack Harkness, but he can laugh off anything the matrix can do.

Good point. That probably explains a lot about The Five Doctors: 'We've FINALLY captured the most evil renegade of all time, let's execute him IMMEDIATELY, and to hell with no vaporisation without representation!' 'Oh, why BOTHER, he'll only come back from the dead AGAIN, probably with peroxided hair, laser-bolts shooting from his hands and the ability to fly...might as well save ourselves the time, and hey, why not just offer him a new regeneration cycle into the bargain...'

Oh come on! They never had ANY intention of honoring that bargain. None of them wanted to risk their precious skins in the Death Zone, so they got the Master to do their dirty jobs for them, and after that they WOULD have vaporised him, with or without representation. And the Master was perfectly aware of it, he was just playing along, all the while following his own agenda.

They never had ANY intention of honoring that bargain.

Why make that insanely reckless promise, then? Wouldn't a bluff have been more likely to be successful if it just offered the Master a free pardon?

I mean, CAN they even give someone a new regeneration cycle?

None of them wanted to risk their precious skins in the Death Zone

To be fair, two of the High Council DID have the guts to risk their precious skins...though one wonders if this isn't what GUARDS and Castellans and suchlike are for...or clones and robots and aliens and remote-controlled cameras or whatever equally cowardly but more technologically-savvy civilisations would go for...

so they got the Master to do their dirty jobs for them, and after that they WOULD have vaporised him, with or without representation.

Oh, I doubt they'd have the GUTS.

And the Master was perfectly aware of it, he was just playing along, all the while following his own agenda.

Oh, I don't know, he sounded genuinely offended when his services were scorned...

Wouldn't a bluff have been more likely to be successful if it just offered the Master a free pardon?

A regeneration cycle is a FAR more appealing prize than a mere pardon.

I mean, CAN they even give someone a new regeneration cycle?

They probably can, under certain circumstances, otherwise the Master would have laughed in their faces. If anyone would know about regenerations, it would be him, he must have researched the matter in great depth after he used up the last of his 12 regenerations.

Oh, I doubt they'd have the GUTS.

They had the guts to try it with the Doctor, who is a far more dangerous individual.

They did offer him a pardon. 'What makes you think I want your forgiveness?' Then they upped the ante with the whole new regeneration cycle.

Can they really offer that? Well it sure does smack of something that would come from Terrance Dicks's pen. But in the end, yeah, it seems they can. We know from the new series that they can resurrect Time Lords with a whole new cycle, so all they have to is execute him and then keep their promise.

Not that the Master would trust them to do that.

Not that I would either.

A regeneration cycle is a FAR more appealing prize than a mere pardon.

Yeah - it's TOO brilliant a prize. It's like one of those 'Congratulations, you've won 50 million euros in a lottery you didn't actually enter' e-mails...

They probably can, under certain circumstances, otherwise the Master would have laughed in their faces. If anyone would know about regenerations, it would be him, he must have researched the matter in great depth after he used up the last of his 12 regenerations.

Which makes it all the more strange that he went through that rather risky (to put it mildly) harnessing-the-Eye-of-Harmony-with-the-Sash-of-Rassilon stuff in Deadly Assassin instead of just forcing the Time Lords to give him a few more regenerations.

They had the guts to try it with the Doctor, who is a far more dangerous individual.

The Doctor's just a big softy! You can be sure the MASTER would have allies who wouldn't meekly hand over their guns as Nyssa did when that Davison wimp told her to.

They did offer him a pardon. 'What makes you think I want your forgiveness?' Then they upped the ante with the whole new regeneration cycle.

Whereas the more NORMAL reaction would be 'Because you're our prisoner and we'll bloody vaporise you if you're not pardoned'. (I mean, I ASSUME the High Council actually managed to CAPTURE the Master in Five Docs? They didn't just send out a polite invitation for him to turn up to tea?)

We know from the new series that they can resurrect Time Lords with a whole new cycle

Ooh yes, that's true. Still, the Time War would have led to a LOT of technological advances that I'm seriously surprised the backward, moribund society of Five Docs managed.

Which makes it all the more strange that he went through that rather risky (to put it mildly) harnessing-the-Eye-of-Harmony-with-the-Sash-of-Rassilon stuff in Deadly Assassin instead of just forcing the Time Lords to give him a few more regenerations.

If I remember correctly, that was a two pronged plan, first regenerate himself and second destroy the Time Lords and get his revenge on them. Three pronged actually, if you include framing the Doctor for the President's murder and having him executed.

I ASSUME the High Council actually managed to CAPTURE the Master in Five Docs? They didn't just send out a polite invitation for him to turn up to tea?

Well, it appears that's precisely what they did, at least he didn't look or behaved like a prisonner, he appeared to be able to come and go as he pleased. Which begs the question, why did he accept the Counsil's invitation before he knew what they had to offer and in effect walk straight into what surely must have looked like a trap.

that was a two pronged plan, first regenerate himself and second destroy the Time Lords and get his revenge on them. Three pronged actually, if you include framing the Doctor for the President's murder and having him executed.

Yeah, Prong Three was definitely the most important one: humiliating the Doctor took precedence over avenging himself on the Time Lords (come to think of it...for WHAT, exactly? Not giving his Daddy's estates enough tax-breaks?) and even over regenerating himself, given that deep down the Master MUST have known that deliberately involving the Doctor in his Cunning Plan would inevitably result in its failure.

I ASSUME the High Council actually managed to CAPTURE the Master in Five Docs? They didn't just send out a polite invitation for him to turn up to tea?

Well, it appears that's precisely what they did, at least he didn't look or behaved like a prisonner, he appeared to be able to come and go as he pleased.

Yeah...I've always just assumed that the Master was behaving with adorable arrogance when captured - just like the Doctor - but that doesn't quite add up.

Which begs the question, why did he accept the Counsil's invitation before he knew what they had to offer and in effect walk straight into what surely must have looked like a trap.

Yeah, THAT doesn't add up either, to put it mildly.

Perhaps the Master knew he could fight his way out of anything the Time Lords could throw at him. Or perhaps he genuinely believed it wasn't a trap, owing to the fact the Time Lords never COULD be bothered to capture him. Hell, even the DALEKS put him on trial, but the most the Gallifreyans did, when they spotted the Master on a world-destroying rampage, was to generously mention this fact to the Doctor. Y'know...the Doctor they'd MURDERED AND EXILED for interfering and nicking a TARDIS...

Terror of the Autons:

'That Jackanapes! All he does is cause trouble' - oh Doctor, Doctor! How could you have forgotten those halcyon days running across the Master's dad's estates together...

'Curiosity is his weakness' - I hardly see how even the Master could see it as a WEAKNESS.

'The Master can completely take over a human mind' - yeah, so much for Tennant's hypnotists-can't-make-you-kill-yourself claim. Though frankly the Master's REALLY BAD at completely taking over human minds. Even that weakling Farrell son eventually breaks free.

'You're my intellectual equal - almost' the Master tells the Doctor. That's quite sweet, given how the Doctor did so badly in his exams (and given that they don't seem to have met SINCE said exams).

'Vicious, complicated and inefficient - typical of your way of thinking' - the Doctor isn't in a mood to return the compliment. Clever of Holmes to set up the excuse for the Master's next fifteen million failures, but a bit stupid of the Doctor to point out the Master's weaknesses to him like that. He should stick to snarling 'He's an unimaginative plodder' even if it's JUST NOT TRUE.

Nope, no sign of any drums...

How could you have forgotten those halcyon days running across the Master's dad's estates together...

Perhaps they were running together because the Master had got them both in trouble with his dad. Whether the Doctor better remembers the trouble or the togetherness depends on his mood.

That's quite sweet, given how the Doctor did so badly in his exams

But how well did the Master do, and did he cheat? I can see him deciding that no mere exams can reveal the measure of his immense intellect.

How well you do on an exam doesn't always reflect how intelligent you are. Einstein is a prime example of that.

Perhaps they were running together because the Master had got them both in trouble with his dad.

Oh. That's a point...

But how well did the Master do, and did he cheat? I can see him deciding that no mere exams can reveal the measure of his immense intellect.

But I could also see him wanting to beat the hell out of everyone else. I'm sure he wouldn't have to CHEAT, though, given how thick, sorry, late-developing classmates like the Doctor and Drax were...though come to think of it the Rani was allegedly a genius and might have given him a run for his money.

How well you do on an exam doesn't always reflect how intelligent you are. Einstein is a prime example of that.

Omega is another example - he acquired his name from getting the lowest-possible academic score EVER after arguing that time travel was possible. ('Omega' the Fifth Doctor audio. Obviously.)

Nice Guardian article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/gallery/2012/aug/19/ten-best-doctor-who-villains

'He's been played by six different actors' - seven, surely? Didn't pizza-faced incarnation have two different actors?

'His initial suave demeanour eventually collapsing into theatrical insanity when John Simm took on the role between 2007 and 2010' - actually I'd say that he collapsed into theatrical insanity in 1996 when Eric Roberts took on the role...

'It was a portrayal, according to Simm, that was inspired by a mix of the Joker from Batman and Tony Blair.' - Ooh, I never noticed the Blair connection (or the Joker one, but then I wouldn't, would I).

••••! It says Season 7 starts on 25th AUGUST!!!!! Why does it say THAT when everything else is talking about 1st September???????

Emily - 'He's been played by six different actors' - seven, surely?

The full quote was "Since then, he’s been played by six different actors". Since they were just speaking about Delgado originating the part they were correct.

The Guardian - Time Lords

I was disappointed they didn't mention the Meddling Monk.

The Guardian - The Silence

ZZZZZZZZZZ... boring, boring, boring.

The Guardian - Cybermen
the original 1960s Cybermen, who came from the planet Mondas and looked like they were built on Blue Peter

*snicker* And soon it will be revealed that the real Big Bad in the Whoniverse is the Blue Peter TV show. ;-)

The Guardian - Zygons
they set about building a robotic monster after crash-landing into Loch Ness

IIRC the saracen was a cyborg from their home planet.

The Guardian - they would go on to be adored by fans

Really? I think they're an okay monster, but not top ten material.

The Guardian - including a young Who watcher, sitting in front of his telly at home, called David Tennant

Well it's just a shame he didn't insist on facing this monster when he was the Doctor.

The Guardian - The Beast

ZZZZZZZZZ...

The Guardian - an imprisoned demon that claimed to be the basis of the devil as he appeared across all religions. It was a bold idea

That he obviously nicked from Azal in The Daemons. ;-)

Nice Guardian article
That's the White Guardian, right? or am I being racist?

The Zygons and the Beast would not be in my top 10 (by time I got to the Beast I'd have stopped counting), but nice to see Scaroth in there.

The full quote was "Since then, he’s been played by six different actors". Since they were just speaking about Delgado originating the part they were correct.

Oops.

I was disappointed they didn't mention the Meddling Monk.

Especially as that meant we had a picture of the RANI. Who does the picture research for this sort of thing? EVERY paper seemed to have the same photo of Tom WITH A STICKING PLASTER ALL OVER HIS FACE alongside Mary Tamm when she died, and it was highly irritating. I really couldn't mourn her for being distracted by that plaster...

IIRC the saracen was a cyborg from their home planet.

That would make slightly more sense - anyone seen Terror recently?

Nice Guardian article
That's the White Guardian, right? or am I being racist?

NEITHER Guardian is NICE. The White one is just weaker and more pathetic and doesn't have NEARLY so great a bird on his head.

Roger Delgado would have been 63 at the time of The Keeper of Traken had he lived. I cant imagine a man in his sixties continuing through the Davison/CBaker/McCoy years - Delgado would be 71 by the time of Survival.

Nothing wrong with an elderly Master! Jacobi made a very fine one.

Emily: [Killing the Master is] fine by ME! If he'd just been EXECUTED instead of that locking-him-up nonsense then Tom might still be alive! AND Tennant! (Just not both at once. Sadly.)

If the Doctor appoints himself judge and jury to the universe, he's halfway to being the Valeyard.

This guy gets out of BEING BURNT TO DEATH.

Which means executing him is pointless, anyway. It might give some people, not the Doctor, a brief moment of satisfaction, but that's hardly worth staining their hands with blood.

He'd get out of being a scarecrow in no time.

But at least you'd know where he was. Burn him to ashes, and he can pop up anywhere, probably at the worst possible moment. Turn him into a scarecrow, and he'll start out in the field where the Doctor left him.

If the Doctor appoints himself judge and jury to the universe, he's halfway to being the Valeyard.

Oh, nonsense - that's EXACTLY what Ten appointed himself in New Earth ('If you want to appeal to a higher authority, THERE ISN'T ONE') and, whilst I didn't ENJOY him bullying innocent oochies (OK, guilty-as-hell oochies...and OK, I did enjoy it a BIT) he wasn't within a million miles of that godawful Valeyard.

This guy gets out of BEING BURNT TO DEATH.

Which means executing him is pointless, anyway.

Oh.

Yeah, I REALLY should've thought of THAT.

He'd get out of being a scarecrow in no time.

But at least you'd know where he was. Burn him to ashes, and he can pop up anywhere, probably at the worst possible moment. Turn him into a scarecrow, and he'll start out in the field where the Doctor left him.

But unless you're planning on sitting in said field staring at him 24/7, you wouldn't have a clue where he was an hour or two after he'd scarpered, well, shambled off.

I see John Simm is whinging about RTG making him play the Master as a 'giggling lunatic'. He's got a cheek.

This guy gets out of BEING BURNT TO DEATH.

Which means executing him is pointless, anyway.

Throw him is a black hole. Even Time Lords can't get out of THAT.

Oh, nonsense - that's EXACTLY what Ten appointed himself in New Earth

And within a couple of years, he was proclaiming himself the Time Lord Victorious, showing his ego was running out of control.

But unless you're planning on sitting in said field staring at him 24/7

Just get K-9 to do it, or Unit - not Torchwood, who'd make a mess of it.

DWM: 'The sudden death of actor Roger Delgado precluded the Master's sacrificing himself to save the Doctor in the conclusion of The Final Game' - what a STAGGERINGLY godawful idea.

'The sudden death of actor Roger Delgado precluded the Master's sacrificing himself to save the Doctor in the conclusion of The Final Game' - what a STAGGERINGLY godawful idea. - Actually it seems even WORSE than that:

The proposed final Master story 'drew on Buddhist notions suggested by Letts. A key notion was that the close relationship hinted at between the Master and the Doctor should be revealed as them being two different aspects of the same person; the Master would be the id (instinctive impulses) to the Dcotor's ego (conscious thought) - an element that Sloman lifted from the 1956 movie Forbidden Planet' - DWM.

Look, I wish with all my heart that Delgado hadn't got killed. But at least he didn't die in vain. He spared us THIS.

Reminds me of the battle between good Superman and evil Superman in Superman 3. That was a bad idea too.

Ah, bless, the poor dear Master:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2013/may/28/john-simm-doctor-who-fans

Doesn't he know that DOCTOR WHO IS FOR LIFE!

Once you've been in it, you never escape.

Well, I can understand how he feels. As much as I like Doctor Who, if I ever met someone involved in it on the street, a restaurant or whatever, I would do them the courtesy or leaving them alone.

Of course, I too would TOTALLY leave them alone.

Sadly my shrieks of excitement would probably be heard for miles around...

The blessing and curse of being part of a popular show.

ME in 'Ask the Matrix: Historical period you'd like to see in a televised story' thread: Oh for heaven's sake. Why would the Master create anything as messy as the Black Death?

FRANCOIS: Maybe he was bored and needed something fun to do? He is, after all, the one who had Earth's population decimated in The Sound of Drums just for the hell of it.

But he had to keep his Toclafane friends happy! They were probably like CATS to him! Whereas there just wouldn't be any FUN in keeping the microbes on the fleas on the rats happy.

Plus, the Simm Master is considerably more psycho than all his predecessors put together. None of the OTHER Masters would have given women black eyes or gloated over unncessary genocide. THEY just wanted to live long happy lives in healthy bodies, annoy the Doctor and conquer the odd planet.

Plus, the Simm Master is considerably more psycho than all his predecessors put together.

Yes well, it seems that someone else has issues stemming from the Time War to deal with.

BOY does he have Time War issues...

I'm just not sure WHY - it's not like he hasn't tried to destroy Gallifrey HIMSELF.* And you'd think the fact the DOCTOR pushed the big red button (I'm just ASSUMING there was a big red button) would result in YEARS of Mastery bwahaha-ing. It'd be worth the destruction of his homeworld just to see that hurt-puppy look on the TennantDoc's face. (Hell, I'd wipe out a planet if it meant I could see that look on TennantDoc's face. Gods I miss him.)

*Yeah, there was a lot of heartbreaking TALK about 'How can Gallifrey be gone?' and 'A new Gallifrey in the heavens' and suchlike, but he didn't just try to blow the place to smithereens in Deadly Assassin, he had no sooner rescued his people in End of Time than he turned round and tried to wipe 'em all out again. So my sympathies are limited.

Hell, I'd wipe out a planet if it meant I could see that look on TennantDoc's face.

Not THIS one hopefully, or else give me a head's up so I can relocate before you wipe.

OF COURSE not THIS planet.

It might still have some missing episodes on it.

A fiftieth anniversary tribute to The Master.

I like the concluding sentence, it sums up the Master very well.

But where's Simm-dancing-to-Scissor-Sisters or Ainley-clutching-an-oochie or Delgado-speaking-existentially-to-Olive-Hawthorne or even Roberts-saying-life-is-wasted-on-the-living...?

MODERATOR'S NOTE: moved from Novels: New Adventures: The Highest Science:

ME: Relying on a black-magic-and-widow's-kiss-and-ring-and-Book-of-Saxon-based resurrection rather than just regenerating-and-escaping-from-the-Doctor is ALSO insanely counter-productive

ROBERT: No, it's insanely complicated, not quite the same thing. An insanely counter-productive plan would leave the Master worse off than where he started

ME: Which is exactly what he WAS. He came back STARVING and DYING (and weirdly blond).

ROBERT: But also free, with superpowers, and dying was a fixable problem.

But if the Master fixed the dying problem, he'd presumably lose the superpowers that were draining his lifeforce (or, um, whatever). He'd be back to Square One (only madder and blonder). Was it REALLY WORTH all the unpleasant hassle of getting killed, getting burnt, hoping that the Doctor was stupid enough to not notice his ring, hoping that the religious nutters he'd groomed would keep the faith, hoping Lucy would survive, hoping Lucy wouldn't throw a spanner in the works...

I'm pretty sure the Master would prefer being in that condition to being locked in the Doctor's Tardis, forced to listen to the Doctor's attempts to get him to renounce evil, and be his friend again.

But surely no one in the universe except you thinks this would be a long-tern situation? Least of all the Master, who always errs on the side of optimism when it comes to his dealings with the Doctor.

And the Master's happy to play a long game. Not a hundred-years-long-game like the Daleks, but ten years on Traken or a year-and-a-half setting up Saxon or (at a guess) at least six months playing with Trenchard. If for some bizarre reason he HONESTLY couldn't escape from the Doctor's clutches within the week, he'd probably REALLY ENJOY slowly seducing the Doctor into believing that his tedious lectures on Becoming Nice and Seeing The Universe Together were working. The pleasure of seducing Queen Galleia would be NOTHING in comparison. After all, his whole LIFE has basically been about gaining the Doctor's undivided attention. And when taking him for rehabilitative trips to see universal beauty-spots, the Doctor could hardly parade him IN CHAINS around the Eye of Orion. He'd have numerous attempts to escape/nick the TARDIS/kill the Doctor/eat the Doctor once he'd lulled his suspicions. (And, judging by all the howling he did over the Master's corpse in Last of the Time Lords, and the pleading he did in End of Time and Sound of Drums, the Doctor was TOTALLY ready to drop his guard the moment the Master said 'Yeah, you're right, Theta old chum, we're the last two left and it's silly to fight, let's find some nice planet where we can run across the grass together.')

OK, so the Master DID do the death-and-resurrection thing once before, in an even crazier, snake-related manner, but we've only got The Eight Doctor's word for it that he DELIBERATELY got himself exterminated by Daleks...

But if the Master fixed the dying problem, he'd presumably lose the superpowers that were draining his lifeforce

He just needs to stick a tap on it. Water gushing out of a hole in the wall, where some pipe is broken, is a problem, but install a tap over the hole, so you can turn the water on and off, and it becomes useful.

Clearly, the Master just needs to do the equivalent, and he'll have superpowers that work when he wants them, without threatening to drain him dry the rest of the time.

But surely no one in the universe except you thinks this would be a long-tern situation?

I think a week of 'tedious lectures on Becoming Nice and Seeing The Universe Together' would be more than the Master could stomach. In fact, even an hour might have been too much for the Master -mas we saw, he'd rather die.

I do agree he'd love the Doctor's undivided attention, but he also loves being in control, and I doubt even he could convince himself he'd be the one in charge in that situation.

we've only got The Eight Doctor's word for it that he DELIBERATELY got himself exterminated by Daleks...

True, but while it probably wasn't deliberate, it probably was anticipated. The Master knew there was a chance his body would be destroyed again, not necessarily by the Daleks, so he made plans, just in case.

After the number of near death experiences he'd had by then, it would have been pretty foolish of him not to prepare himself for another one.

Water gushing out of a hole in the wall, where some pipe is broken, is a problem, but install a tap over the hole, so you can turn the water on and off, and it becomes useful.

Clearly, the Master just needs to do the equivalent, and he'll have superpowers that work when he wants them, without threatening to drain him dry the rest of the time.

I disagree. They're clearly unnatural and unsustainable and threatening his mental health (what's left of it) as well as his physical health. And the Master has an addictive personality, there's no way he WOULDN'T use his superpowers all the time whatever the cost.

I think a week of 'tedious lectures on Becoming Nice and Seeing The Universe Together' would be more than the Master could stomach.

But he positively ENJOYED his relationship with Trenchard, his Clangers, his exercise bicycle...imprisonment with the Doctor in the TARDIS for a lot shorter time would be a delightful holiday.

I do agree he'd love the Doctor's undivided attention, but he also loves being in control, and I doubt even he could convince himself he'd be the one in charge in that situation.

But the Master doesn't mind pretending to play second-fiddle to Queens, Presidents, Daleks, Nestenes, etc for MONTHS on end if he thinks it'll get him what he wants.

The Master knew there was a chance his body would be destroyed again, not necessarily by the Daleks, so he made plans, just in case.

But why would he make ridiculous snake-related plans instead of kidnapping the High Council and squeezing his promised new regeneration cycle out of 'em?

After the number of near death experiences he'd had by then, it would have been pretty foolish of him not to prepare himself for another one.

You could say the same about the Doctor, but HE never seems to prepare. Unless you count the Watcher, which I don't.

But he positively ENJOYED his relationship with Trenchard, his Clangers, his exercise bicycle..

Because he knew he was in charge, and Trenchard was his puppet.

But the Master doesn't mind pretending to play second-fiddle to Queens, Presidents, Daleks, Nestenes, etc for MONTHS on end

In those cases, he could convince himself he was the one in real control, not so with the Doctor.

But why would he make ridiculous snake-related plans

Because he'd get dizzy if he walked in a straight line, as the Rani said.

You could say the same about the Doctor, but HE never seems to prepare.

Five wore celery, so he'd be warned of poisonous gasses. That's preparation.

Unless you count the Watcher, which I don't.

Why not?

But he positively ENJOYED his relationship with Trenchard, his Clangers, his exercise bicycle..

Because he knew he was in charge, and Trenchard was his puppet.

He's THE MASTER. It would take him five minutes to convince himself that the Doctor was also his puppet. He always manages to maintain his delusions of superiority, even when grovelling before a Daemon or a Chronovore. Plus, he DID get a better degree than the Doc.

Five wore celery, so he'd be warned of poisonous gasses. That's preparation.

It would be if I believed him. Why would celery from Castrovalva and celery from an Eternal ship turn purple (or whatever) in the presence of some gases? And how would the Doctor know that Adric/the Master/the Eternals invented celery that did that? And, er, why should they?

Look, I'm with Tennant. (And HE should know, since he's allegedly the same person.) Five is wearing celery cos he's a total loser who thinks 'look at me, I'm wearing a vegetable!'

Unless you count the Watcher, which I don't.

Why not?

Cos Logopolis sends me catatonic with boredom within five minutes so I can't count ANY of it. ESPECIALLY the bit where the Love Of My Life* goes jumping off radio telescopes for no readily apparent reason.

Oh. You want me to justify this on some sort of LOGICAL grounds? Alright - so 'the moment was prepared'. But it WASN'T prepared by the Doctor. At least, not consciously. He was as surprised and freaked-out by the Watcher as the rest of us, at least, as the rest of us who weren't asleep by then.

*Well, the Love Of My Life till he abruptly got replaced by a subsequent self on 26th March 2005 anyway.

He's THE MASTER. It would take him five minutes to convince himself that the Doctor was also his puppet.

Here, we have to agree to disagree. As I see it, the Master's long history with that Doctor prevents him from genuinely believing himself superior. After all, that would leave no explanation for his long string of defeats save pure bad luck, and persistent bad luck is highly improbable.

With the others - the Daleks, the last Daemon, and the rest - the Master can tell himself that they're like children who've picked up a death ray. They're intrinsically inferior to him, but they need humouring until he can persuade them to hand over the ray gun.

Why would celery from Castrovalva and celery from an Eternal ship turn purple (or whatever) in the presence of some gases?

Simple chemistry. The gas binds to a pigment in celery, lengthening the chain of conjugated bonds, thus producing the observed colour shift. This would happen with all celery, not just the artificial varieties.

Look, I'm with Tennant. (And HE should know, since he's allegedly the same person.)

Both Five and Ten can be right. Five could have made himself a cat badge with eyes that flashed purple in the presence of poisonous gases, but he though wrongly celery would make a better impression.

'the moment was prepared'. But it WASN'T prepared by the Doctor. At least, not consciously.

Yes and no. It wasn't consciously prepared for by Four, but the Watcher was the Doctor too, and it was perfectly conscious.

I'll admit the Doctor doesn't do much preparation though, because he thinks it would make life too boring. However, the Master has always been a lot keen on planning than the Doctor, and he usually doesn't have as many regenerations to spare.

As I see it, the Master's long history with that Doctor prevents him from genuinely believing himself superior. After all, that would leave no explanation for his long string of defeats save pure bad luck, and persistent bad luck is highly improbable.

After the Master failed to kill the Doctor with his fiendish telephone-wire scheme he announced that it was just a calling-card, not a genuine assassination attempt (or was that after the Jo-Grant-suicide-bombing? Well, it doesn't matter) and that it would be so much more SATISFYING to kill the Doctor face-to-face. I don't doubt that he's spent CENTURIES making similar excuses to himself for each subsequent failure.

And after all, deep down, Delgado was just doing it all for the joy of duelling the Doctor (hell, which one of us wouldn't attempt to conquer the world if it would result in Himself materialising to stop us). He wasn't remotely interested in REALLY ruling Earth - why should he be? - and on the occasion the Autons actually looked as if they'd win it for him, he turned against them on the flimsiest of excuses.

Admittedly things might be slightly different when he turns into Ainley. (Maybe the drums were getting louder.) HE didn't seem so content to fail in his latest scheme and win the 'moral' victory of going bwahaha-ing on his merry way as UNIT and the Doctor stared despairingly at some bloke in an unconvincing rubber 'Master' mask. Hence Ainley's STRING of traps-within-traps involving materialising inside Sexy, slaughtering Lopolitans, holding the universe to ransom, kidnapping Adric, sending the TARDIS back to Event One, building Castrovalva, etc etc. Though even HE came up with pathetic attempts to attract the Doctor's attention by *rolls eyes despairingly* getting robots to pretend to be King John and suchlike.

Still, Ainley could console himself with various 'victories'. He DID make Tom fall off that radio telescope and wipe out half the universe (admittedly accidentally). He did rejuvenate himself with the Eye of Harmony and the power of the Keeper. He did get the Doctor humiliatingly tortured by his own people. He did destroy Atlantis (one of 'em anyway) Those are the sort of achievements you'd gloat over on those long lonely nights. (I mean if you're the Master, obviously, not you personally.)

(Simm is a completely different matter, of course, he's utterly insane, but still AT LEAST as interested in the Doctor as he is on being Master of Earth.)

Why would celery from Castrovalva and celery from an Eternal ship turn purple (or whatever) in the presence of some gases?

Simple chemistry. The gas binds to a pigment in celery, lengthening the chain of conjugated bonds, thus producing the observed colour shift. This would happen with all celery, not just the artificial varieties.

Oh! And DOES it?

the Watcher was the Doctor too, and it was perfectly conscious.

Ah, but WAS it? Would any TRULY conscious creature be BLOODY STUPID enough to tell Tom to go to Logopolis?

the Master has always been a lot keen on planning than the Doctor, and he usually doesn't have as many regenerations to spare.

That's true, though it's the very lack of spare regenerations that makes me think the Master used to be INCREDIBLY bad at planning, or he wouldn't have used so many up so fast. (I think it's the Deadly Assassin novelisation that claims he used regeneration as a form of disguise, which is REALLY short-sighted, especially given how well the Delgado rubber masks fool everyone...)

I don't doubt that he's spent CENTURIES making similar excuses to himself for each subsequent failure.

Doubtless, but for those excuses to be remotely credible he has to respect the Doctor's abilities, as he clearly does, viewing him as a worthy foe. I doubt he has anything like as much respect for the Daleks, and his other temporary allies.

And DOES it?

Find me some of the gas that killed Five, and we can test its effects on normal celery. Until then, the important thing is that there's nothing remarkable about a plant changing colour when exposed to a particular poison. It's the kind of perfectly normal biochemistry that the Doctor might take advantage of.

Would any TRULY conscious creature be BLOODY STUPID enough to tell Tom to go to Logopolis?

Would an unconscious being be able to talk? Remember, the watcher talked to Four, who would surely notice if he was talking to someone without a mind.

That's true, though it's the very lack of spare regenerations that makes me think the Master used to be INCREDIBLY bad at planning,

Presumably, getting as skilled as the Master is at insanely complex plans took a lot of practice, and several regenerations.

for those excuses to be remotely credible he has to respect the Doctor's abilities, as he clearly does, viewing him as a worthy foe

I don't know - can he REALLY regard the Doctor as a worthy foe when he grotesquely underestimates him EVERY SINGLE TIME? Is 'respect' an emotion the Master even understands?

Of course, the Doctor's equally schizophrenic about the Master. One moment he's an 'unimaginative plodder', the next he's 'stone cold brilliant'.

Find me some of the gas that killed Five, and we can test its effects on normal celery.

It wasn't gas that killed Five. It's NEVER gas that kills the Doctor. If he'd had a Time Lord/Cyberman/Spider/Radio Telescope detector, THAT would have made MUCH more sense.

Would an unconscious being be able to talk? Remember, the watcher talked to Four, who would surely notice if he was talking to someone without a mind.

Proximity may easily have made the Watcher telepathically echo the Doctor's own thoughts back at him. Said Doctor's thoughts obviously becoming suicidal shortly after JNT turned up (see his surrender to Gundan execution, Romana's 'Do you have a death-wish' when he was gonna 'accidentally' press a TARDIS-destroying switch, etc).

Presumably, getting as skilled as the Master is at insanely complex plans took a lot of practice, and several regenerations.

Not necessarily. Plans don't GET any more insanely convoluted than Wheel in Space, but the Cybermen came up with THAT bright idea quite early on in their illustrious careers.

I don't know - can he REALLY regard the Doctor as a worthy foe when he grotesquely underestimates him EVERY SINGLE TIME?

Easily. The Master regards the Doctor as his near-equal, when he is in fact, of course, vastly superior to the Master. He blames his failures on factors outside his control, and decides he needs an even more elaborate plan to eliminate those external factors.

Proximity may easily have made the Watcher telepathically echo the Doctor's own thoughts back at him.

I'm pretty sure Four would notice that too. Six might not be surprised to meet someone who thinks exactly like him, but Four wasn't so egotistical.

the Cybermen came up with THAT bright idea quite early on in their illustrious careers.

It was several decades after Mondas blew up, plenty of time for them to learn cunning, even if we discount however many centuries Mondas spent drifting out of the solar system.

I've always wondered why the Doctor never realises that Mr. Maestro/McMasters/Masterson is in fact the Master in disguise?

He blames his failures on factors outside his control

Possibly, but do you ever remember him trying to pin the blame on anyone else? (Well, I think he called his Ogrons morons for leaving one of their number behind in Frontier but who WOULDN'T have - it didn't indicate an obsessive, psycho-need to blame others for his own shortcomings.)

And I think his sarcastic comment in Utopia about 'Why don't I tell you all my plans while you think up a way to stop me' indicated he'd faced up to some of HIS OWN mistakes...

and decides he needs an even more elaborate plan to eliminate those external factors.

I'm not so sure. His most successful duel with the Doctor EVER came in Utopia where he didn't have TIME to think up anything convoluted, he just went on instinct: let in a bunch of cannibals. Scarper in Sexy. Brilliant!

Proximity may easily have made the Watcher telepathically echo the Doctor's own thoughts back at him.

I'm pretty sure Four would notice that too. Six might not be surprised to meet someone who thinks exactly like him, but Four wasn't so egotistical.

Is the line 'You have access to the greatest source of knowledge in the universe!' 'I do talk to myself sometimes, yes' not ringing any bells...?

the Cybermen came up with THAT bright idea quite early on in their illustrious careers.

It was several decades after Mondas blew up, plenty of time for them to learn cunning, even if we discount however many centuries Mondas spent drifting out of the solar system.

Yeah, but at least they CALMED DOWN a bit after that. They realised that insanely convoluted plans were just NOT COOL. I can't see why the Master hasn't come to the same conclusion, over the centuries.

I've always wondered why the Doctor never realises that Mr. Maestro/McMasters/Masterson is in fact the Master in disguise?

To be fair, he always DOES realise it...just not for a very, very long time. I think Festival of Death mischievously hinted that the Doctor KNEW his life was designed to come to an exciting climax every 23 minutes, so that might explain why his subconscious frequently prevents him putting 2 and 2 together for that long.

On the other hand, maybe the Doc's just a pathological optimist. You'd pretty much HAVE to be, bounding enthusiastically out of that TARDIS not expecting to get into trouble EVERY TIME. And after all, he DID encounter a GENUINE bloke called Masters in Silurians.

Possibly, but do you ever remember him trying to pin the blame on anyone else?

Not just anyone, anything, but he wouldn't do that where the Doctor could hear, since it'd be an admission his plan was flawed.

What I'm suggesting is that each time he comes up with one of his grand plans, one of the things he thinks about is what went wrong with his last one, then adds elaborations to his current plan to prevent a repeat of those failures.

Is the line 'You have access to the greatest source of knowledge in the universe!' 'I do talk to myself sometimes, yes' not ringing any bells...?

Four was only joking.

I can't see why the Master hasn't come to the same conclusion, over the centuries.

He had, by the time of Utopia.As you point out, he stole the Tardis without any elaborate scheming.

However, this does raise a question: how long is the Master's career? How many years passed for the Master between Terror of the Autons and The End of Time? For him, is Survival two very busy years after Logopolis, two centuries after, or somewhere in between?

If the Master's entire career fits into a decade or two, he won't have had much time to think about his mistakes.

I've always wondered why the Doctor never realises that Mr. Maestro/McMasters/Masterson is in fact the Master in disguise?

Bear in mind, English isn't the Doctor's first language. He thinks in Gallifreyan, so he'll think of the Master by the equivalent Gallifreyan term, which won't sound like the English word, making the connection less obvious.

he DID encounter a GENUINE bloke called Masters in Silurians.

Hmm, has he met anyone genuine with a name that could be an alias for the Master since Terror of the Autons? If he has, that'd be another reason not to leap to conclusions.

If the Master's entire career fits into a decade or two, he won't have had much time to think about his mistakes.

The Master's career must be about as long as the Doctor's, give or take a couple of centuries maybe. They attended the Academy together, and the Master has already exhausted all of his normal regenerations, so he must have had a long and distinguished career, unless he was very very careless about preserving his own life.

What I'm suggesting is that each time he comes up with one of his grand plans, one of the things he thinks about is what went wrong with his last one, then adds elaborations to his current plan to prevent a repeat of those failures.

I'd say the Master's the very definition of a madman who'll do the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. (Mind you, he's not TOTALLY insane - by the laws of averages he'll triumph over the Doctor at SOME point (it's just that the laws of averages seem totally suspended where that man's concerned). And it's not as if he's got anything to lose - he KNOWS the Doctor won't harm him.)

The Master certainly hasn't considered what went wrong when it comes to allies - you'd think his Auton experience (Terror) would have taught him SOMETHING, but no, he only goes and snuggles up to THE DALEKS (Frontier). Likewise, his attempt to control Kronos (Time Monster) was way stupider than his earlier attempt to control Azal (Daemons).

The only slight change he's made is developing an obsession with disguise - presumably deciding the humiliation of having to dress up in a radiation suit in Time Monster when the Doctor made an unexpected appearance should never be repeated (plus he probably realised he'd never get away with that 'I can't eat pheasant in the presence of the military! I'm a pacifist!' excuse with anyone less thunderingly stupid than Ruth and Stu).

Is the line 'You have access to the greatest source of knowledge in the universe!' 'I do talk to myself sometimes, yes' not ringing any bells...?

Four was only joking.

Half-joking, and half...not.

The fact is, Four has as big an ego as Six, it's just that when Four thinks he's the most marvellous person in the history of creation...HE'S RIGHT.

He had, by the time of Utopia. As you point out, he stole the Tardis without any elaborate scheming.

Only because he didn't have TIME for elaborate scheming. He'd just undergone TWO metamorphoses in ten minutes flat. (And even THEN he took the time to do SOMETHING with the evacuation-ship's navigation, though as That Irritating Kid obviously made it to Toclafane-heaven, I'm not exactly sure WHAT.)

Bear in mind, English isn't the Doctor's first language. He thinks in Gallifreyan, so he'll think of the Master by the equivalent Gallifreyan term, which won't sound like the English word, making the connection less obvious.

I'm not so sure. The Doctor's gone native. He's always loved our world best, even before he blew up his own. And he DOES speak French, after all - so OF COURSE he's really speaking (and by now thinking) in English.

Hmm, has he met anyone genuine with a name that could be an alias for the Master since Terror of the Autons? If he has, that'd be another reason not to leap to conclusions.

Not that I can think of.

The poor guy can't even meet a bloke with an anagram of the Master's name without him becoming the Master by the end of the story (Keeper of Traken)...

The Master's career must be about as long as the Doctor's, give or take a couple of centuries maybe.

The books claimed that Time Lords always met in sequence, and after the same number of years had passed for each of 'em. (Well, almost always. And when Eight met Delgado-Master in Legacy of the Daleks, he did an embarrassing 'This shouldn't happen' info-dump to some character who didn't give a toss.)

Presumably this was to explain bizarre stuff like 'The Rani and I are both 953 years old!' (Time and the Rani) and Five Doctor's 'So there are five of me now!'

the Master has already exhausted all of his normal regenerations, so he must have had a long and distinguished career, unless he was very very careless about preserving his own life.

For Delgado to be the last (proper) Master he must have been INCREDIBLY careless. (Unless he lived for thousands of years between leaving the Academy and popping up in Terror of the Autons. And I simply don't believe he'd've been capable of staying away from the Doctor for so long.) Maybe it's a side-effect of being an evil megalomaniac that you don't even care about your OWN life - at least in its current regeneration. (And, let's face it, THE DOCTOR didn't seem to cotton on to the fact that 'everything I am dies, and a new man goes sauntering off in my place' until Nine was dying (yes, he was a hell of a lot braver about it than Ten but my GOD he didn't want to go).)

Maybe THAT'S why Delgado suddenly developed a Doctor-fixation - he'd kept playing with monsters, they'd kept exterminating him, NOW he was gonna play with someone who'd never harm a hair of his beard...

I think the TVM novelisation has Eight say to the Master "You accelerated your regenerative cycle on purpose. You should face the consequences!"

Why the hell would anyone accelerate their regenerative cycle on purpose?

Come to think of it, I really must read the TWM novelisation, I've always avoided it as it would refresh my memories and therefore extend the time before I'd forgotten enough of the TWM to have the joy and happiness of watching it again. THAT...isn't really a consideration any more.

OK, so...HOW many explanations have we now had for the Master being evil?

Old Who: I'm evil! Get over it already!

New Who: The drums, the drums, the never-ending drums!

Missing Adventures: My Companion turned out to be a Time Lord! Boo hoo!

Past Doctor Adventures: I'm mentally part of an Assemblage of Masters, I have no more control of my evil than a sparrow wheeling in its flock!

Audios: The Doctor smashed a bully's skull in when we were kids and did a deal with Death so I'd be responsible.

Yeah, NONE of 'em make any sense, do they? I mean, I'd be FINE with RTG's tinnitus explanation, if only Delgado/Ainley/Pizza-Face/Roberts had MENTIONED it...

I'm rather partial to the first explanation. Why over analyse things?

With MOST Who villains, it's enough that they're evil. But with THE MASTER...he wiped out half the universe and didn't bat an eyelid. There should be a REASON. I can't believe RTG went for some DRUMS instead of heartsbreak at a gay love affair with Young Hartnell gone wrong...

He did look into the Untempered Schism as a child. Quite apart from Rassilon putting the sound of drums in his head at that moment, the Schism must have affected his mind as it affected everyone who gazed into it. The young Master may have been among those the Schism drives insane, ultimately maturing into someone who can destroy half a universe without batting an eyelid.

Fan made trailer for The Master

When did the Master leave Gallifrey?

In Terror of the Autons, I get the impression he's only just left, and the Time Lords have immediately decided to warn the Doctor. However, I can't really picture the Master wanting to stay on Gallifrey once the Doctor had left. What would he be doing to keep himself amused all those years, bantering with the Rani?

Of course, this is assuming time passes at the same rate for all Time Lords, on and off Gallifrey, but it does usually seem to.

In Terror of the Autons, I get the impression he's only just left, and the Time Lords have immediately decided to warn the Doctor.

Have just checked, and it doesn't look like it: 'I came to warn you. An old acquaintance has arrived on this planet...the Master. He'll certainly try to kill you, Doctor. The Tribunal thought that you ought to be made aware of your danger...The Master has learnt a great deal since you last met him.' 'I refuse to be worried by a renegade like the Master' - if the Doctor (of all people!) calls him a renegade, presumably he left Gallifrey BEFORE the Doctor did? And they haven't met since? Though how Gallifrey is so well-informed about the Master's doings - without ever hauling him in for trial - is anyone's guess.

However, I can't really picture the Master wanting to stay on Gallifrey once the Doctor had left. What would he be doing to keep himself amused all those years, bantering with the Rani?

Quite.

There's very little chance Gallifrey would have SURVIVED him hanging round a few hundred years after the Doc scarpered.

Of course, this is assuming time passes at the same rate for all Time Lords, on and off Gallifrey, but it does usually seem to.

It does indeed, and I think we're justified in assuming this unless clearly stated otherwise.

presumably he left Gallifrey BEFORE the Doctor did? And they haven't met since?

Surprising. If the Master had never met the Doctor before Terror of the Autons, there might be some excuse for this, but he was the Doctor's childhood friend. How could he go so long without seeking out his perfect rival?

For that matter, what did the Master learn between leaving Gallifrey and arriving on Earth? The art of disguise, perhaps. Presumably, this is also when he acquired his tissue compression eliminator. That might account for a few months, but it still leaves many decades, and he surely can't have spent all of them practising looking suavely evil.

Though how Gallifrey is so well-informed about the Master's doings - without ever hauling him in for trial - is anyone's guess.

The same way they collected information on the Doctor's adventures for his trial. It looks like Gallifrey can record events around Tardises even when they can't locate them well enough to recall them - or possibly the label has just fallen off the 'recall' button.

Emily - if the Doctor (of all people!) calls him a renegade, presumably he left Gallifrey BEFORE the Doctor did?
Not necesarily. If The Master (or whatever he was called then) had committed some renegade action on Gallifrey and was caught and put into some kind of rehabilitation center before the Doctor left Gallifrey that could explain how the Doctor knew of his renegade status.

if only Delgado/Ainley/Pizza-Face/Roberts

Anyone here willing to forget the Eric Roberts version never existed? I know I am.

he was the Doctor's childhood friend. How could he go so long without seeking out his perfect rival?

Because the Hartnell Doctor and the First Master WEREN'T perfect rivals? They were just childhood chums who grew to really, REALLY get on each other's nerves and it never occurred to the Master that he wanted to spend the rest of his life trying desperately to attract the Doctor's attention by trying to wipe out his favourite planet and/or offering him half-shares in universal domination until Delgado met Pertwee?

For that matter, what did the Master learn between leaving Gallifrey and arriving on Earth? The art of disguise, perhaps. Presumably, this is also when he acquired his tissue compression eliminator. That might account for a few months, but it still leaves many decades, and he surely can't have spent all of them practising looking suavely evil.

He spent 'em dying. Again and again and again.

Just don't ask me WHY.

(Though I seem to remember the Deadly Assassin novelisation suggests he used new lives as disguises. Though don't ask what's wrong with a nice rubber mask...)

The same way they collected information on the Doctor's adventures for his trial.

How much information DID they have on the Doctor for his trial? It was Troughton who called up all the evidence of, um, Quarks and stuff. The Time Lords just accused him of nicking a TARDIS (blatantly obvious, at least for morons who didn't notice exactly who was nicking whom) and interfering (again, blatantly obvious as his telepathic message-in-a-box must have mentioned all the events of The War Games). Come to think of it, maybe the gibbering cretins didn't even realise he'd been FIGHTING EVIL when they put him on trial, hence them letting him keep Sexy and go on saving planets and just throwing in his regeneration to save face.

If The Master (or whatever he was called then) had committed some renegade action on Gallifrey and was caught and put into some kind of rehabilitation center before the Doctor left Gallifrey that could explain how the Doctor knew of his renegade status.

Yeah, if only the Time Lords would have been able to KEEP him in a rehabilitation centre for more than five minutes before he blew it up along with the planet and scarpered in a stolen TARDIS...

Anyone here willing to forget the Eric Roberts version never existed? I know I am.

Are you crazy? 'I always like to drezzzzz for the occasion' is about the only fun I had during TSLABYOD.

Because the Hartnell Doctor and the First Master WEREN'T perfect rivals? They were just childhood chums

Just? Is that really possible? Remember, the normal reaction to spending time round the Doctor is making him the focus of your life. Admittedly, it's just about conceivable that someone who saw Four and his glorious scarf from six hundred yards for three seconds might not spend the rest of their lives obsessing over the mysterious stranger, but the Master spent his formative years with the Doctor. Obsession is to be expected: ignoring him isn't.

He spent 'em dying. Again and again and again. Just don't ask me WHY.

Escaping his allies after he betrayed them, perhaps? The Master did have an habit of teaming up with creatures, like the Autons and the Axons, which would betray him as soon as he'd won them victory. That might have given him a lot of practice escaping certain death, even at the cost of a regeneration, though he should really have learnt to choose his allies more wisely before running out of lives.

How much information DID they have on the Doctor for his trial?

For his second trial, quite a lot, including records of things that hadn't actually happened yet. Ask the Matrix for information on the Master, and the High Council might get a pretty detailed picture of his activities after leaving Gallifrey.

"get out of the way"

The Master's redemption in End of Time is still heartwarming.

DWM Daemons review: 'He dismisses the soul as "an outdated concept." Later in his life, the Master's own incorporeal essence will find a home - at various times - in a pocket watch, a cygnet [sic] ring, Nyssa's old dad, and a string of snot dribbling from the TARDIS keyhole. If anyone in this universe proves the existence of the soul, it's our remorselessly reincarnated Master' - I...hadn't quite thought of it like that.

But isn't he posing as a trendy 1970s* vicar? The opinions might just be him trying to stay in character.

(* UNIT dating permitting.)

How many vicars - small village vicars, at that - WOULD have gone for the 'no such thing as souls' option in the 1970s-UNIT-dating-permitting?

I wonder what the Master would have done if a Devils End child had come to him for comfort?

I'm pretty sure the kid would have been safer with him than with a REAL vicar.

I wonder what the Master would have done if a Devils End child had come to him for comfort?

He might well tell them to do just what he would - Your mother won't buy you a new doll? Put two drops of this in her tea, and she'll be a lot more compliant. You're being bullied at school? Here's a foolproof plan to make them all cower before you. The BBC cancelled your favourite program? These are the plans for a letter bomb which will reduce their headquarters to a heap of smouldering rubble - and so on.

If the child had a problem with this at first, a few minutes with the Master would be enough to overcome their moral qualms - just look at how easily he convinced their parents to kill people.

And not just PEOPLE either. OUR DOCTOR.

One thing I remember is a TV guide about one of the Master episodes. In the episode description, they left out the "s". So it read:

The Doctor tries to stop the Mater from changing history.

Who's the Mater??

Well that would make the slashers and male pregnancy fans happy!

LOL! Yeah, I guess it would.

"One of the reasons Delgado works so well is because he's one of those actors who's playing on multiple levels at once -- he's intensely convincing to the kids as a black hat, but there's such a streak of *fun* in his performance, and of not taking himself too seriously (without directly winking at the audience), that the adults really groove on him too." - Jon Bum/Blum

Yup, that makes sense. It's exactly the way the Brigadier works - solemn, but with a twinkle in his eye that you're (well, I'm) not even consciously aware of for decades.

JUDI in Companions: General Discussion section: I wonder if the Master would have the hots for Clara?
Naah... he fancies the Doctor, we all know that!

It's precisely BECAUSE he's so obsessed by the Doctor that the Master's also so obsessed by his Companions. (I'm still not convinced that he's 'got the hots' for the Doc, though. If so, why didn't he say YES in Sound of Drums when Tennant was accidentally asking him out on a date?)

The Master's particularly obsessed with Martha Jones and Captain Jack Harkness, of course, but he's certainly happy to spend a good percentage of his life trying to hypnotise Jo, Peri, Grace, etc. There's even a bizarre scene in Verdigris (Third Doctor PDA) when he kisses Jo Grant and then apologises - he just felt as if it was something he SHOULD do...

Don't tell me there isn't more than a hint of jealousy when Simm accuses the Doctor of 'always playing with Earth girls'. No doubt the reason he too supplied himself with such an accessory. (It can't just have been to win an election. He had the entire population hypnotised.)

Gods, can you BELIEVE that Matt's gone and DIED on us and NEVER met the Master?! ALL the others encountered the Master! Even One and Two in Five Doctors! Even Eight during his pitiful hour of Doctorhood!

ALL the others encountered the Master!

Eccy never did.

Oh.

Yeah.

I kinda...just didn't notice that.

Geoffrey Beevers in DWM: 'Normally if you're given an evil character to play, you try to find out why they're evil, why they feel hard done-by and need to murder people or whatever; you make it quite rational and reasonable. But there's something about the Master that's just beyond all reason. It's really fun to enjoy the utter evil of it. The Master doesn't quite obey the ordinary rules of acting.' - If only Lidster with his godawful Master audio and RTG with his drums had realised this...

I happened to like Mr. Ainley as the Master. I did a good job in the role.

8-o Which regeneration are you, Tim? Obviously your middle name must have the missing letters A & S in it, no doubt to keep the Doctor from figuring out the anagram. ;-)

One day when I'm moderator of the Who section, I'll great delight in editing and removing Emily's posts. I'm already writing a complaint to Phil.

I don't know the post Emily edited/removed but if it contained profanity then she is following the guidelines set out by Phil.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, for all of Emily's eccentricities around here she is still a fantastic moderator. As Tim pointed out, other boards on this site are basically dead and Emily has got the toughest job of all, what with new episodes being made (probably the only ones that come close are the movies board and maybe the comics section).

She has also responded to criticism and adjusted her ways (even if having a hissy fit in the process).

*Gazes in helpless anguish at Ask The Moderator stuff cluttering up the Master section* I have indeed adjusted my ways...*crawls off to sob quietly to self*

Which regeneration are you, Tim? Obviously your middle name must have the missing letters A & S in it, no doubt to keep the Doctor from figuring out the anagram

Sorry, dude, you've lost me.

Sorry, dude, you've lost me.

If, say your middle name was Sam, then 'Tim Sam McCree' anagrams to 'Master Mice CM'. Since CM is 900 in Roman numerals, this would clearly mean you were a regeneration of the Master famous for using 900 pet mice in his evil schemes.

Well, Tim you did write "I did a good job in the role."
Does that help you understand my question?

That's what happens when I write posts after just getting out of bed.

JOHN A LANG in Old Series: Trial of a Time Lord: The Ultimate Foe:

He always wanted to destroy / conquer the Earth

Well, he always SAID he did. I reckon it was all one big childish tantrum to attract the Doctor's attention.

He always wants to kill the Doctor

He SO does not!

He practically ADMITTED in Terror of the Autons that all his murder attempts were just a love letter - sorry, CALLING CARD - to the Doctor.

He always wanted revenge against the Time Lords / Gallifrey.

Oh, I dunno. He only wrecked Gallifrey as a side-effect of a plan to resurrect his zombified body (oh, and catch the Doctor's attention AGAIN). He seemed quite upset Gallifrey was gone in Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords, going to inordinate lengths to turn Earth into New Gallifrey. And he certainly did his best to bring it back in End of Time. Admittedly he changed his mind on that score after five minutes...

Rassilon no doubt convinced him of that.

I wonder how he and old Rassy are getting on, stuck on the other side of that crack?

Hmm. I have the feeling that Gallifrey ain't big enough for the both of them.

If it wasn't for certain Season 8/34-related rumours, I'd say that they'd managed to kill each other cos I don't see the Doctor getting a SPOILERS FOR TIME OF THE DOCTOR nice package of new regenerations from EITHER of those genocidal maniacs. And, to their credit, I don't see either of 'em wailing 'Doctor WHO' through a Crack for a millennium rather than having the guts just to barge back into the universe, either.

I'd say that they'd managed to kill each other cos I don't see the Doctor getting a SPOILERS FOR TIME OF THE DOCTOR nice package of new regenerations from EITHER of those genocidal maniacs.

Or someone on the Timelord concil grew a spine and had Rassilon deposed and the two maniacs thrown in jail, or something like that.

Throwing 'em in JAIL wouldn't do much good. They'd be out in ten minutes flat (unless they were enjoying The Clangers).

Though come to think of it, executing them wouldn't be much of a long-term solution either...

I'd say that they'd managed to kill each other cos I don't see the Doctor getting a SPOILERS FOR TIME OF THE DOCTOR nice package of new regenerations from EITHER of those genocidal maniacs.

I could actually see the Master doing it. Do you really think he would let the Doctor just die at the end of his last incarnation and thus be deprived of the pleasure of dispatching him himself?

Sure, the Doctor's death would spoil his fun, but then being seen to blatantly rescue the Doctor and give him THIRTEEN MORE LIVES would also spoil his fun. EVERYONE would KNOW what we've always suspected, and start singing 'Doctor and Master in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G...'

---
Or someone on the Timelord concil grew a spine and had Rassilon deposed and the two maniacs thrown in jail, or something like that.
---
Romana for the deposing, and the regenerations?

And what if, as a result of what was done to him with the drums, the Master's actually intentionally keeping Rassilon imprisoned as well? After all, the Doctor was merely a worthy adversary and someone for the Master to prove how clever he was to, Rassilon made sure he was insane for the entire duration of every single one of his lives.

Gallifrey. Rassilon Era.

(THETA SIGMA brings out a box full of doughnuts)

KOSCHEI: Those are very fattening, Thete!

THETA SIGMA: No! I can eat as many doughnuts as I want... and I don't put on weight!

KOSCHEI:...have one!

(KOSCHEI squashes a doughnut into THETA SIGMA's face)

Be interesting to find out.

BEST MASTER: Roger Degaldo

WORST MASTER: John Simm

(Sorry...he just annoyed me)

Worst goes to the guy in the Telemovie.

I loved ALL the Masters!

Yes, even the 'I always drezzzzzzzzzzz for the occasion' one...

Eric Roberts was totally miscast here.

Eric Roberts is the only good thing about the TVM.

He was just a little too over the top for my liking.

Eric Roberts is the only good thing about the TVM.

I never thought of that.

I've always* considered MCGANN as the telemovie's great redeeming feature, but now you mention it, any bits with the Roberts Master in were a hell of a lot better than anything ELSE about the TVM. At least when HE kissed his Companion it was FUNNY.

*And by 'always' I mean post-26th March 2005 when I was FINALLY in a position to face the fact that, yeah, that telemovie was ••••, wasn't it.

Is Eric Roberts famous for other roles or something?

Well he is the brother of Julia Roberts.

He was Doctor Who's third Oscar nominated actor.

I loved ALL the Masters!

At the risk of sounding like Tim - I meant all the PROPER Masters. As seen on TV. Not the boring one from the boring First Frontier NA, or the perfectly-adequate-but-not-particularly-Mastery one from the UNIT: Dominion and Dark Eyes 2 audios. And tragically the clean-shaven bloke with the rosette in Adventuress of Henrietta Street didn't hang around long enough for me to love him.

Oh! Wait! I forgot about the CHILD-Master from Sound of Drums. So I DON'T love every TV-Master after all...(Which is probably a much more healthy attitude towards the Fount Of All Evil, especially given that I don't love every DOCTOR, not by a long chalk...)

Is Eric Roberts famous for other roles or something?

Well he is the brother of Julia Roberts.

So, no?

I know there's a famous actress named Julia Roberts, but honestly, I have no idea what she looks like.

He was Doctor Who's third Oscar nominated actor.
He's nothing more to me than a bad actor from one poorly-written, poorly directed Who story.

He's nothing more to me than a bad actor from one poorly-written, poorly directed Who story.

Fortunately for his career, he has a rather better reputation among people who aren't you. He's TV's Eric Roberts!

ROBERT in Original Series: Season Eight: The Mind of Evil: the Time Lords did warn the Doctor he was coming, in 'Terror of the Autons', which suggests they realise the Master is dangerous.

Not just DANGEROUS, but OBVIOUSLY in possession of a stolen TARDIS AND prone to meddling in other planets' concerns. And yet the Doc gets EXECUTED for these crimes, whilst the Time Lords are quite content to WATCH the Master, the miserable hypocritical gits. (The one time they BOTHER hauling him in it's TO OFFER HIM A NEW REGENERATION CYCLE, for gods' sakes!! (And Time of the Doctor has certainly put paid to any lingering hopes that they were just LYING about that...))

Getting on to the High Council, then staging a coup, would have been an obvious route to power

That's a point. For someone obviously in search of a good dose of universal domination, it's quite odd the Master fled the planet of his birth, what with it being pretty impressive, as powerbases go. (If not QUITE good enough, as Morbius discovered the hard way.)

Of course, his initial ambitions seem to be quite modest. The Master honestly didn't seem to think himself capable of conquering 1970s Earth without hauling along an alien ally/a superweapon/reducing it to a radioactive wasteland first. SOMEONE's been undermining his confidence and I think we can all guess who the MEAN-SPIRITED CULPRIT is...

the Doc gets EXECUTED for these crimes

Only because he was worried about being recognised. Until he raised that spurious objection, they seemed to be planning to exile him as he was, without a forced regeneration.

the Time Lords are quite content to WATCH the Master

Why would they need to get their hands dirty when the Doctor is doing such a good job?

it's quite odd the Master fled the planet of his birth

I'm guessing he fled because he was about to be arrested for abuse of hypnotism, and sundry other crimes, charges which would probably have torpedoed any career in Gallifreyan politics the Master might have been planning.

his initial ambitions seem to be quite modest. The Master honestly didn't seem to think himself capable of conquering 1970s Earth without hauling along an alien ally

Or maybe he though his games with the Doctor would be more fun if he handicapped himself with unreliable allies. He's arrogant enough to believe that he could easily win he didn't burden himself with the Autons, and others

The Master seemed more interested in challenging the Doctor than conquering Earth.

the Doc gets EXECUTED for these crimes

Only because he was worried about being recognised. Until he raised that spurious objection, they seemed to be planning to exile him as he was, without a forced regeneration.

The Doctor's stupid comment played right into their hands, but a forcible regeneration MUST have been part of the sentence that they just hadn't got round to announcing yet, it MUST. Even JUDGE JEFFRIES wouldn't have altered a setence so drastically for the worse due to one silly remark...

And they'd already arranged a selection of badly-drawn faces for the Doctor to choose from, and everything!

the Time Lords are quite content to WATCH the Master

Why would they need to get their hands dirty when the Doctor is doing such a good job?

When it comes to bringing the Master to justice, the Doctor does a TERRIBLE job.

I'm guessing he fled because he was about to be arrested for abuse of hypnotism, and sundry other crimes, charges which would probably have torpedoed any career in Gallifreyan politics the Master might have been planning.

Yeah, but it's weird he got CAUGHT. The Time Lords aren't the smartest of people, and anyone who noticed what the Master was up to should just have got hypnotised too...

I guess it must have been that meddling tattle-tale the Doctor who went running to the authorities...But THAT would be very unlike HIM...

Or maybe he though his games with the Doctor would be more fun if he handicapped himself with unreliable allies. He's arrogant enough to believe that he could easily win he didn't burden himself with the Autons, and others

I don't think that's it. He seemed genuinely shocked when the Doctor pointed out that the Nestene would turn on him. (Though I SUPPOSE he could have been genuinely shocked that he'd wiped the floor with the Doctor on their very first contest even WITH unreliable Auton help, and the Doctor's claims just gave him an excuse to do the fastest and least convincing u-turn in history...?)

But a guy who'd ally with THE DALEKS is a guy in need of some SERIOUS allies, not just looking for a handicap in an amusing game of wits.

The Master seemed more interested in challenging the Doctor than conquering Earth.

Yeah, it makes you wonder a) why he left the Doc well alone for two whole regenerations (give or take The Dark Path MA and personally I don't believe a word of it) and b) how many other alien races are (like Lorna Bucket) only attacking cos they want to get a glimpse of Our Hero.

how many other alien races are (like Lorna Bucket) only attacking cos they want to get a glimpse of Our Hero.

Can't they buy the DVDs like everyone else?

a forcible regeneration MUST have been part of the sentence that they just hadn't got round to announcing yet, it MUST.

Considering the fiasco of Six's trial, I doubt it. One thing that made quite clear is that the Time Lord legal system is nothing like as fair as ours - changing the charges halfway through the trial, etc.

And they'd already arranged a selection of badly-drawn faces for the Doctor to choose from

Those faces could have been whipped up in milliseconds by Gallifreyan computers, or their Matrix.

When it comes to bringing the Master to justice, the Doctor does a TERRIBLE job.

But he does an excellent job of stopping the Master disrupting the web of time (him conquering Earth would mean radical changes to its future history, and hence to Galactic history) and that's the Time Lords' top priority.

anyone who noticed what the Master was up to should just have got hypnotised too...

Even Borusa? He should have noticed what his pupil was up to, and he didn't seem like a pushover.

Though I SUPPOSE he could have been genuinely shocked that he'd wiped the floor with the Doctor on their very first contest even WITH unreliable Auton help

Perfectly believable.

a guy who'd ally with THE DALEKS is a guy in need of some SERIOUS allies, not just looking for a handicap in an amusing game of wits.

Unless the Master had seriously underestimated the Daleks' competence, which wouldn't be that surprising. It wasn't until the Matrix started prophesying Dalek universal domination that Gallifrey started taking them seriously. Before that the Time Lords seem to have ignored them, even when they were building their own Tardis.

The Master may have simply shared a general Time Lord contempt for the Daleks, until he actually tried working with them.

Considering the fiasco of Six's trial, I doubt it. One thing that made quite clear is that the Time Lord legal system is nothing like as fair as ours - changing the charges halfway through the trial, etc.

To be fair, that was an inquiry that later turned into a trial when sufficient evidence that the Doctor was a genocidal maniac was presented (by the Doctor).

Those faces could have been whipped up in milliseconds by Gallifreyan computers, or their Matrix.

Nonsense, any computer would have spent ages slowly and ritualistically telling 'em about each face in its bizarrely feminine tones, and the Matrix would of course have provided the face the Doctor was ACTUALLY going to end up with.

he does an excellent job of stopping the Master disrupting the web of time

I'm not so sure. How do we KNOW that any of the people slaughtered during, say, Terror of the Autons wasn't originally destined to have a Napoleonic-style descendent who carved out one of our Great and Bountiful Human Empires?

We can't expect plastic manikins to be as knowledgeable or respectful of the Web of Time as that Dalek in Waters of Mars.

anyone who noticed what the Master was up to should just have got hypnotised too...

Even Borusa? He should have noticed what his pupil was up to, and he didn't seem like a pushover.

Borusa regenerates every five minutes. An earlier version of him might have been a LOT more susceptible. Plus he was a TERRIBLE judge of character. Never amount to anything in the universe while he retained his propensity for vulgar facetiousness, indeed! MY Doctor!!

(And, come to think of it, since when did HARTNELL have a propensity for vulgar facetiousness anyway?)

Unless the Master had seriously underestimated the Daleks' competence, which wouldn't be that surprising.

True, but the Daleks are equally dangerous to their allies whether or not they're being competent or incompetent. They'll execute you for being a potential threat, or they'll execute you for letting 'em down.

It wasn't until the Matrix started prophesying Dalek universal domination that Gallifrey started taking them seriously.

Don't forget that, back in the Dark Times, the Time Lords never scooped Daleks or Cybermen into the Death Zone cos 'they play too well'.

(Of course, how this fits in with HARTNELL NEVER HAVING HEARD OF DALEKS is anyone's guess.)

Well, the academy could hardly have taught him about the Daleks without giving away the fact that the Doctor kept thwarting their plans, so they just didn't tell him anything about the Daleks to preserve the web of time. ;-)

To be fair, that was an inquiry that later turned into a trial

Without giving the Doctor adequate opportunity to prepare a defence against the new charges. A court system that will do that won't hesitate to sentence someone to forced regeneration for ill-judged comments.

the Matrix would of course have provided the face the Doctor was ACTUALLY going to end up with.

The Matrix is composed of dead Time Lords.They might have thought it was funny to show Two unsuitable faces, or they might have been trying to shape Three's personality. It's widely suspected that a Time Lord's personality is influenced by the circumstances of their regeneration.If so,giving the Doctor a face of his choosing would have changed his attitude and hence Three's personality.

How do we KNOW that any of the people slaughtered during, say, Terror of the Autons wasn't originally destined to have a Napoleonic-style descendent

Like the Doctor implied in Shakespeare Code, history can shrug off small changes. Kill Hitler's father, and someone in the next village will have a son who does the same things Hitler did. To wreck history, you have to tamper with fixed points, or do something really dramatic, like killing every last human.

Never amount to anything in the universe while he retained his propensity for vulgar facetiousness, indeed!

Clearly, Borusa didn't think anything that happened off Gallifrey counted.

In 'Deadly Assassin', did Borusa act like he remembered the Master? Off-hand, I think that's the only time they were in the same story.

since when did HARTNELL have a propensity for vulgar facetiousness anyway?)

When we knew him, he was over 400, since he later claimed to be 450. When Borusa was teaching him, he was probably under 100. Three centuries is time enough for Hartnell to change his propensities.

Don't forget that, back in the Dark Times, the Time Lords never scooped Daleks or Cybermen into the Death Zone cos 'they play too well'.

But in those days the Time Lords were a lot more competent. After all, Rassilon was still awake, and probably killing any Time Lords who annoyed him, which would include all the incompetent ones.

By the Doctor's time, millions of years later, they'd forgotten just how dangerous the Daleks were, just as they forgot so much else from the Dark Times.

Man, for a time travelling race, the Time Lords forgot a lot of their own history.

Well, the academy could hardly have taught him about the Daleks without giving away the fact that the Doctor kept thwarting their plans, so they just didn't tell him anything about the Daleks to preserve the web of time. ;-)

Brilliant!

To be fair, that was an inquiry that later turned into a trial

Without giving the Doctor adequate opportunity to prepare a defence against the new charges.

They OFFERED the Doc a laywer, he turned 'em down. Plus they offered him a good five minutes to recover from Peri's death, but he turned 'em down THEN too.

And it's not as if there WAS any defence against charges of genocide under any circumstances*, let alone ones involving THE DOC practically jumping up and down shrieking 'Look at me I'm committing genocide!'

A court system that will do that won't hesitate to sentence someone to forced regeneration for ill-judged comments.

Say what you like about those glowy-eyed gits (and I do), they at least had...SOMETHING (Power? Ruthlessness? Integrity? Vision?) that was utterly lost to the Time Lords by the time that Inquisitor was sitting around in a butterfly-headdress for FOURTEEN ******* EPISODES.

The Matrix is composed of dead Time Lords.They might have thought it was funny to show Two unsuitable faces

They're DEAD TIME LORDS. The chances of 'em having a sense of humour are roughly nil.

Like the Doctor implied in Shakespeare Code, history can shrug off small changes. Kill Hitler's father, and someone in the next village will have a son who does the same things Hitler did.

That's not the impression I got in Let's Kill Hitler. The Doc looked SERIOUSLY horrified to discover he'd saved Hitler's life.

To wreck history, you have to tamper with fixed points, or do something really dramatic, like killing every last human.

Look, I've never been REMOTELY convinced by ANYTHING Who tells me about history-changing, whether it's Hartnell's 'Not one line!' or Tom's 'It takes a being of Sutekh's power...' or Matt's 'History is in flux, as long as it's not a Fixed Point...'

Clearly, Borusa didn't think anything that happened off Gallifrey counted.

Why would he use a phrase like 'in the universe' rather than 'on Gallifrey', then?

In 'Deadly Assassin', did Borusa act like he remembered the Master?

Definitely not.

Which is odd.

Unless he WAS susceptible to hypnotism, and the Master had a go at him whilst nicking his own biodata extract...

After all, the Doctor and the Master were at school together. Borusa was the Doctor's teacher at said school. Ergo, Borusa should at least have HEARD of the Master even if he didn't teach him directly. The pair of 'em should have stood out amongst their classmates like parrots amongst crows. UNIVERSE-destroying/saving parrots...**

Three centuries is time enough for Hartnell to change his propensities.

Though only once he'd met the humanising properties of Ms Barbara Wright, for some reason.

But in those days the Time Lords were a lot more competent. After all, Rassilon was still awake, and probably killing any Time Lords who annoyed him, which would include all the incompetent ones.

Actually it should include ALL of the incompetent/boring/homicidal-Death-Zone-watching gits. Which suggests Rassilon wasn't enormously hands-on after all. Or there wouldn't be any Time Lords LEFT.

By the Doctor's time, millions of years later, they'd forgotten just how dangerous the Daleks were, just as they forgot so much else from the Dark Times.

I wanna know when/what/how/why/which pre-Davison Doc went reading up all about the didn't-use-Daleks-in-the-Death-Zone Good Old Days. And where his sources came from, since the Time Lords had forgotten so much.

Man, for a time travelling race, the Time Lords forgot a lot of their own history.

Possibly it's their powers of time-travel that make 'em assume that they don't NEED to record/study their own history.

CRETINS.

*Well, any circumstances other than the ones at the end of Trial, which led to the Inquisitor dismissing ALL charges, especially the ones the Doc was BLATANTLY GUILTY OF...

**OK, so metaphors aren't my strong point.

They're DEAD TIME LORDS. The chances of 'em having a sense of humour are roughly nil.

That wouldn't stop them thinking they've got a sense of humour though.

That's not the impression I got in Let's Kill Hitler. The Doc looked SERIOUSLY horrified to discover he'd saved Hitler's life.

But that was much later. Kill Hitler in 1935, and history doesn't have time enough before WWII to get back onto its original track. Kill one of his ancestors in 1835, and history can heal from the damage.

Why would he use a phrase like 'in the universe' rather than 'on Gallifrey', then?

As far as he's concerned, they effectively mean the same thing.

Unless he WAS susceptible to hypnotism, and the Master had a go at him whilst nicking his own biodata extract...

Possible, I suppose, but the Master can't have hypnotised everyone on Gallifrey into ignoring him, or they wouldn't have sent anyone to warn Three.

Borusa should at least have HEARD of the Master even if he didn't teach him directly. The pair of 'em should have stood out amongst their classmates like parrots amongst crows.

The Rani was in the same year as the Doctor too, being the same age, so maybe the Master didn't stand out as much as we'd expect. If all twenty-plus of the Doctor's classmates were Master-style megalomaniacs, constantly spinning insane plots, the Doctor would stand out, as the only one with morals, but the Master-to-be would have vanished in the crowd.

Actually it should include ALL of the incompetent/boring/homicidal-Death-Zone-watching gits

Unless their behaviour was part of his plans - distract the masses with bread and circuses so the competent Time Lords can't use them as cannon fodder in a rebellion against him.

I wanna know when/what/how/why/which pre-Davison Doc went reading up all about the didn't-use-Daleks-in-the-Death-Zone Good Old Days

It could be left over memories from when he was linked to the Matrix, or it might have been around the same time he collected the Hand of Omega. Reading up on the time the Hand came from is an obvious safety precaution when dealing with something that powerful.

They're DEAD TIME LORDS. The chances of 'em having a sense of humour are roughly nil.

That wouldn't stop them thinking they've got a sense of humour though.

Oh!

Does ANYONE on Gallifrey (even the live ones) delude themselves that they've got a sense of humour? I can't remember any occasions off-hand...

The Rani was in the same year as the Doctor too, being the same age, so maybe the Master didn't stand out as much as we'd expect. If all twenty-plus of the Doctor's classmates were Master-style megalomaniacs, constantly spinning insane plots, the Doctor would stand out, as the only one with morals, but the Master-to-be would have vanished in the crowd.

THAT'S a point. There was definitely SOMETHING going on in the Class Of...um, whatever-year-that-was. I'd wonder WHAT, only that would bring back memories of Divided Loyalties, so I won't.

And actually, Hartnell HAD no morals so HE wouldn't have stood out either...

Unless their behaviour was part of his plans - distract the masses with bread and circuses so the competent Time Lords can't use them as cannon fodder in a rebellion against him.

Rassilon's the exact opposite of someone who'd try to DISTRACT people from opposing him in the first place. He likes bringing their opposition out into the open and then swishing 'em like a bug (well, I can't think why ELSE Gallifrey was still holding votes on anything). And this was the guy who was so enchanted watching THE DOCTOR'S opposition that he sacrificed his entire species just for a few more seconds of that Tenannty goodness...(Well, wouldn't we all...)

It could be left over memories from when he was linked to the Matrix

Fair enough.

Reading up on the time the Hand came from is an obvious safety precaution when dealing with something that powerful.

Yeah, like THE DOCTOR would ever perform obvious safety precautions...

There was definitely SOMETHING going on in the Class Of...um, whatever-year-that-was.

Maybe it's all Borusa's fault. Maybe when he was telling his pupils about Gallifreyan history, he accidentally made past villains sound too attractive, because he secretly admired their ambition. Borusa wouldn't openly say the villains were admirable, but his pupils would read between the lines, and realise he considered most Time Lords to be pathetic sheep, but greatly respected those with the ambition and drive to actually do things, even if they didn't have a conscience.

Of course, this only works if Borusa actually did teach the Master and the Rani, but it does seem plausible he did. They're both the same age as the Doctor, and the Master was his childhood friend.

On the other hand, this IS Borusa - since when would he ADMIT that Gallifreyan history HAD any villains...?

He wouldn't need to. In fact, denying that Gallifreyan history would only add to the effect I postulated.

Suppose that President Pandak the Second was notorious for the way all his enemies 'mysteriously' disappeared, with pretty much everyone believing he secretly killed them, though the official histories are silent on this.

Suppose too that Borusa repeatedly praises Panadak II's achievements, and how he was one of Gallifrey's great presidents, and definitely not a villain, while also dismissing the rumours about Pandak II as unimportant, saying "people were just jealous of Pandak's success, and even if the rumours were true, so what. His enemies were political pygmies, so their disappearance was good for Gallifrey." etc.

If that was the kind of thing the Master and the Rani both heard in their history lessons, several times a week for fifty years, it might well encourage them to act like the historical figures Borusa so clearly admired, and be ruthless in the pursuit of their ambitions.

But the thing about Borusa is, he corrupted SLOWLY. Had he been ANYTHING LIKE THAT while teaching at the Academy, there's no way the Doctor could EVER have respected him.

Good point, but presumably Borusa wasn't the only teacher at the Academy. Maybe it was one of the Doctor's other teachers who accidentally talked half his class into being evil.

I know these days we're supposed to blame the Master's madness on hearing drums,but that doesn't explain the Rani and anyway, most people with tinnitus don't try to conquer the world - I have it sometimes, and I've never even contemplated grinding the world under my iron heel.

There really should be some other common factor that pushed both the Master and the Rani over the edge into madness. A shared teacher, inspiring them in the wrong way, seems pretty plausible.

There really should be some other common factor that pushed both the Master and the Rani over the edge into madness. A shared teacher, inspiring them in the wrong way, seems pretty plausible.

Far more plausible is that they were both made to stare into the Untempered Schism.

Not really, because all young Time Lords apparently have to stare into the Untempered Schism, but they don't all end up like the Rani and the Master. If even a tenth of them did, Gallifrey would have been much more colourful.

The Doctor said that some Timelords are inspired by the experience, some run away and some go mad. He doesn't give the precise proportions of these categories. However, you can deduce that the madness outcome is not all that common, or the Timelords would have quickly stopped doing such a dumb thing. And there are many flavors of madness, some can even pass for genious. In that way, it is possible that of the Doctor, the Master and the Rani, it is the Doctor who is the madder of the three.

Do we know Borusa was corrupted slowly? as opposed, that is, to being fairly suddenly corrupted at an old(er) age? He seems like a stuffy, stilted old Time Lord until The Five Doctors. Perhaps that incarnation was his Colin Baker.

Maybe it was one of the Doctor's other teachers who accidentally talked half his class into being evil.

HIS class?! HIS class, you male chauvinist - oh, wait. They didn't have women on Gallifrey on Hartnell's young day, did they. Except for Susan, I suppose (though it's odd that 'kidnapping the only female on the planet' wasn't on Troughton's charge-sheet). Oh, and Clara, of course. AND the Rani...

Actually, they obviously DID have women on Gallifrey in Hartnell's young day, they'd all just died out by Troughton/early Tom times, before staging a come-back...

anyway, most people with tinnitus don't try to conquer the world - I have it sometimes, and I've never even contemplated grinding the world under my iron heel.

Come to think of it, tinnitus-sufferers have been remarkably blase about Who indoctrinating an entire generation with the notion that, basically, you're all going go universe-destroyingly insane. Compare n'contrast with the way gingers were up in arms all over the media when THE TOTAL CRETINS mistakenly thought that Matt's 'not ginger' opening line was one of RELIEF not disappointment...

Not really, because all young Time Lords apparently have to stare into the Untempered Schism, but they don't all end up like the Rani and the Master. If even a tenth of them did, Gallifrey would have been much more colourful.

Ah, but all the colourful ones grabbed a TARDIS and scarpered. The Doctor's Wife made it clear there were a LOT more Time Lords whizzing round the universe than we ever realised at the time. (Alright, some of 'em would have been on CIA missions (which isn't to dismiss the idea that they were crazy megalomaniacs too, quite the contrary in fact) but surely most of 'em, like the Corsair, would have been Renegades.)

However, you can deduce that the madness outcome is not all that common, or the Timelords would have quickly stopped doing such a dumb thing.

Frankly I deduce no such thing.

I can EASILY see Time Lord Tradition being more important to them than the sanity of their kids.

Do we know Borusa was corrupted slowly? as opposed, that is, to being fairly suddenly corrupted at an old(er) age? He seems like a stuffy, stilted old Time Lord until The Five Doctors. Perhaps that incarnation was his Colin Baker.

That's the Terrance Dicks attitude, during the several books he wrote getting Borusa OUT of that Tomb - he was the most marvellous person in the universe, he just suddenly went a bit off the rails, but hey, now he's gone sane again and back to his rightful place as ruler of Gallifrey with the Doctor kneeling at his feet (no I'm not kidding).

But I think we had a marvellous, subtle (and no doubt on the Production Team's part accidental) progression of corruption each time we saw Borusa. In his Academy-teaching days he believed that 'Only in mathematics can you find truth'. By Deadly Assassin he'd graduated to proving this by rewriting Time Lord history with utter contempt for morality and, y'know, FACTS. In Invasion of Time he was so indifferent to the slaughter around him that even the Doctor (who'd caused said slaughter in the first place) took him to task over it. In Arc of Infinity the innocent he'd decided to execute himself was THE DOCTOR. And in Five Docs he'd kill or betray anything to get his hands on immortality so he could rule forever.

HIS class?! HIS class, you male chauvinist

His, meaning the Doctor's. After all, he was by far the most important person in that room, even if none of the others realised it yet.

The Doctor's Wife made it clear there were a LOT more Time Lords whizzing round the universe than we ever realised at the time.

True, but is the universe big enough to hold a thousand Masters?

We don't know how many Time Lords there were, but the number of children mentioned in 'Day of the Doctor' suggests it was pretty large. If the Master's brand of madness was remotely common, this implies there could be a thousand or more Time Lords just like him chasing absolute power. Is that believable?

His, meaning the Doctor's.

Oh! I do apologise.

After all, he was by far the most important person in that room, even if none of the others realised it yet.

How could they not have realised it? 'Such was the authority in Theta Sigma's voice...'

OK, maybe not.

True, but is the universe big enough to hold a thousand Masters?

They could EASILY have taken over a galaxy each without us even NOTICING, provided that none of said galaxies was the Milky Way. *Does a quick embarrassed web-seach* There are '170 billion galaxies in the observable universe'! Hell, there could be a BILLION insane Time Lords out there with plans of galactic domination, and providing they weren't quite insane to attract the Doc's attention by invading us, they'd be FINE.

We don't know how many Time Lords there were, but the number of children mentioned in 'Day of the Doctor' suggests it was pretty large.

Was it clear whether they were Time Lords or 'just' Gallifreyans? (Assuming there IS such a distinction, something implied but never made explicit on-screen.)

They could EASILY have taken over a galaxy each without us even NOTICING, provided that none of said galaxies was the Milky Way.

And provided that none of them contained a world like Logopolis, where meddling can destroy half the universe. If they did, protecting all the Logopolises from the thousand Masters would keep the Doctor pretty busy.

Still, there's no evidence that any of the worlds outside our galaxy are half as important as Logopolis. Some of them may hold superweapons that can ravage half a galaxy, but the only worlds with the potential for meddling to destroy the universe seem to be in our galaxy, luckily for the Tardis - it means she can stay close to her favourite planet most of the time, seldom getting more than a few thousand light years from the Earth (which, for her, is practically on the doorstep.)

Was it clear whether they were Time Lords or 'just' Gallifreyans?

Not really.

And provided that none of them contained a world like Logopolis, where meddling can destroy half the universe. If they did, protecting all the Logopolises from the thousand Masters would keep the Doctor pretty busy.

Ah, but you're forgetting the Master would never have gone anywhere NEAR somewhere as boring as Logopolis if the CRIMINALLY STUPID Doctor hadn't lead him right there...

I think, and Callie would no doubt agree with me, that Benedict Cumberbatch would make a great Master.

Git has announced he'll never be in Who.

And good riddance.

The man is currently one of the hottest properties going around at the moment- why would he bother doing Who???

And just because he won't do it NOW doesn't mean that down the track he won't- I'm sure there are plenty of actors who have "announced" they'll never be on a show and then a few years later- there they are!!!

Callie will now accept your spleen has compensation for calling her loverboy a "git"...

It was clear a long time ago that it wouldn't make sense for Benedict to play the Master now that he's so famous as Sherlock. And for once, it would be nice if Moffat could cast someone new rather than members of his immediate 'family'!

But even if Benedict was interested, I think his diary is pretty full for the next few years.

And he's not my loverboy, Rodney - I could only wish - and just because I've jokingly and non-seriously threatened you with violence before doesn't mean that I have any violent thoughts towards Emily. Please don't put words in my mouth. Anyway, it makes perfect sense to me that she would think that anyone who doesn't want to be in Who is a git!

Thanks, that's WAY more forbearing than I'd be in your place. It wasn't just the way the GIT refused to be in Who (who does he think he IS!) it was the way he announced that he'd been ASKED TO BE THE DOCTOR but turned it down cos HE DIDN'T WANT HIS NAME ON SANDWICH BOXES, thus casting doubt on both his sanity AND Moffat's 'he's my first choice, honest' casting of Matt Smith. You NEVER say if you've turned down Doctorhood, it's a cast-iron actorly TRADITION that you don't insult the REAL Doctor in that manner. In fact, that's what Tennant said made him take the job after he stupidly started wavering when suddenly offered his life's ambition - not just the fact that he'd never be the Doctor, the fact that he could never even tell anyone he COULD have been the Doctor...

Alright, so my instant 'Doctor! Make him be the Doctor!' reaction to the sight of Sherlock may possibly have SOMETHING to do with how much I HATE THE GIT.

Did he say this before or after he did 'Star Trek Into Darkness'? Because his performance there has a palpable sense of "please don't ever cast me in anything like this again".

You've WATCHED Star Trek?!

Um, anyway...TARDIS Eruditorum's take on the Master:

'Robert Sloman had in mind...a climactic battle between the Doctor and the Master in which it is revealed that they are different parts of one psyche, with the Master being the Id and the Doctor the Ego (notably not the Superego)' - I always thought this idea was INCREDIBLY STUPID but, when you think about it...at least until kiddie-Master in Sound of Drums blows it to smithereens...it might actually have WORKED. It wouldn't be the first time a Time Lord (or even the Doctor) had interacted with another self (Valeyard, Cho-je) - and why shouldn't that other self acquire independent existence, including the ability to regenerate?

And of course, this would make more sense of The Time Monster - 'Let's take the basic idea - that the Master and the Doctor are themselves individual reflections of some larger form. Plato...declares that the appropriate rulers of society are philosopher-kings. And in this story, the Doctor is declared a philosopher while the Master is viewed by Queen Galleia as the ideal king...The Master is a pure will to power without understanding, whereas the Doctor...has understanding without the will to use it decisively.'

AND of 'the Time Lords...puzzlingly hands-off approach' to the Master. 'When the Doctor's location was known they arrested him. [In Terror of the Autons], despite knowing exactly where the Master was, they just tipped the Doctor off to him. Given that one is a homicidal maniac and the other is just a bit rude, this seems like a questionable reaction...The Master, being a part of the Doctor as opposed to an individual in his own right, isn't the Time Lords' to deal with. The Doctor is the only one who can fix this problem.'

You've WATCHED Star Trek?!

It had Mickey the Idiot in it. And the Editor.

Et tu, Mickey!

Moffat lies, right?

Why The Master Won't Be Back

Indeed, Moffat lies.

The Master will be back, sooner or later. Now that we'll be dealing with a dark, brooding Doctor, maybe we can get a Master trying to redeem himself.

Nah. His moment of mercy towards the Doctor in End of Time ('Get out of the way') was as close as he should ever get to redemption. Or he just wouldn't be the Master any more.

FRANCOIS in 'Ask the Matrix: Why hasn't Who done a serial killer story?' section:

The Master was to have the APPEARANCE of being as smart as the Doctor, but he could never be given a fair chance to win because the Doctor in old Who ALWAYS had to be victorious.

That's not necessarily because the Master is less intelligent than the Doctor. (Of course, he's capable of massive acts of mind-boggling stupidity, but then so is Our Hero.) He's mainly a) less lucky, b) less devious, and c) secretly just wants to attract the Doctor's attention rather than actually SUCCEED in his latest fiendish scheme.

Me not like.

Sorry - I know I've been demanding a Time Lord sex-change FOREVER - but it's gotta be recognisably the same character.

And Missy - give or take a delightful reference to 'humanity's basic weakness' straight out of Terror of the Autons - is a Generic Moffat Feisty Evil Female Who Just Wants To Snog The Doctor.

If the Master REALLY considered the Doctor his boyfriend, why has he never shown the slightest sign of this, through all those centuries and regenerations - until he happens to be in a female body?

And how come the Doctor never noticed she was a Time Lord, even when her hearts were, well, beating EXTREMELY close to his? Was there some drumbeat in the background?

Of course, it doesn't help that we've had weeks of thinking time in which enormous numbers of fans deduce 'Missy is short for Mistress, she's a female Master!' - unlike the rather lovely Mels-to-River twist.

remember the old joke on Usenet about the Master taking over Nyssa - "I'm going to threaten the Universe, Doctor! Then I'm going to throw you off a radio telescope! Just as soon as i stop standing around looking pretty..."

'Two hearts' 'And both of them yours' - SERIOUSLY? Since WHEN!

'The one you abandoned, Doctor, the one you left for dead' - aren't we being a little egocentric? The Doctor abandoned ALL the Time Lords, after all...

'I should shoot you in a jealous rage, wouldn't that be sexy' - well, not particularly. Plus if you were going to do THAT you should have done it millennia ago.

'Well, I couldn't very well keep calling myself the Master' - and why not? The female Doctor certainly won't be changing her NAME.

and why not? The female Doctor certainly won't be changing her NAME.

Doctor can apply to both genders, but Master is definitely a male thing

I don't think that 'master' SHOULD be a male thing. Given that its female form is 'mistress', which basically means some man's whore. There's no reason women shouldn't claim 'master' for their own. The way they rejected 'actress' for 'actor'.

Given that its female form is 'mistress', which basically means some man's whore.

You mean K9 was being disrespectful when he was adressing Leela, Romana or Sarah Jane as 'Mistress'?

Well, obviously it's different when darling K9 does it. I mean, he called the Doctor the 'MASTER' for years and none of us batted an eyelid.

How about Mastrix?

If that doesn't make her sound too much like a town in the Netherlands?

It's possible the Master didn't want to become female. We know the Time Lords sometimes use forced regeneration as a punishment, as with the Second Doctor, and Rassilon doesn''t seem like a feminist,

I can easily imagine Rassilon forcing the Master to regenerate into a woman as part of his punishment. He might also have been able to influence the Master's post-regeneration personality.

If the Master didn't want to be female, if he's a man trapped in a female body by Rassilon, we should still call him the Master, and use male pronouns.

However, if the Master actually wanted to try being female, and is enjoying her new body we should call her Missy, and use female pronouns.

If the truth lies somewhere in between, the appropriate choice of names and pronouns gets more complicated.

I think the change came as a surprise and that she is enjoying it very much.

And lets not assume Rassilon won the fight. Last we saw, the Master was kicking his ass.

In adult aimed fiction of course the person being gender swapped either wants to be or wants to be forced to be a glam overly sexualised caricature of a woman.

How about Mastrix?

If that doesn't make her sound too much like a town in the Netherlands?

I could cope with a town in the Netherlands, I just can't cope with an EU Treaty town...

I can easily imagine Rassilon forcing the Master to regenerate into a woman as part of his punishment. He might also have been able to influence the Master's post-regeneration personality.

Why the hell wouldn't Rassilon just KILL the Master? Hadn't the Master just screwed up all his save-the-Time-Lords plans? Hasn't Rassilon turned into a ruthless dictator? Hasn't he realised that the whole 'His crimes will find their punishment in due course' attitude was UNBELIEVABLY STUPID?

And if Rassilon DID decide to regenerate the Master into someone more to his liking (which is actually a good point, the Time Lords certainly managed to regenerate anarchist Troughton into ultimate-establishment-figure Pertwee) why is the Master STILL as mad as a box of frogs?

If the Master didn't want to be female, if he's a man trapped in a female body by Rassilon, we should still call him the Master, and use male pronouns.

The hell we should!

If the truth lies somewhere in between, the appropriate choice of names and pronouns gets more complicated.

We have a word for 'that thing you stick in your hair at a wedding that isn't a hat'.

We do NOT have a word for 'she or he'.

Sometimes I think the Doctor should just LEAVE the human race to its fate.

(Unless I'm watching In The Forest Of The Night, of course, in which case it's SO ••••••• STUPID when he does that.)

I think the change came as a surprise and that she is enjoying it very much.

Hear hear.

Which is weird given how blatantly sexist Jacobi and Simm were (no doubt the others too, but EVERYONE was blatantly sexist in those days, Doctor included, so it didn't stand out so much).

So far there's no telling how long the Master has been female. He may have had lady parts for decades and finally said, 'Oh well. I guess I'll start wearing dresses, since I seem to like that sort of stuff now."

Ironic that it was Moffatt that wrote the Comic Relief skit (Curse of the Fatal Death) and that featured a female Doctor.

Ok, the Master as a woman worked. And I'm glad it happened during Capaldi's tenure. There was enough innuendo between Tennant and Simm, and Smith just wouldn't have reacted to being snogged as effectively.

I also didn't see the Missy-is-the-Master revelation coming. Admittedly, that's mostly because 'It's the Master!' is the first fan-based explanation that comes up for any yet-unexplained happening, going back at least to Bad Wolf, so I rejected it being too obvious.

Like Simm, she's bananas. Fine. But I hope in the future to see a Master who isn't. Delgado remains my favourite, in part because he played it completely sane, and that's more chilling to me.

I'd also like to see a single-episode Master story. So far, we've had series-long arcs culminating in multi-part conclusions (or just multi-part conclusions). It would be interesting to see a chamber piece with her...maybe even a Doctor-lite story.

I'd also like to see a single-episode Master story...It would be interesting to see a chamber piece with her...maybe even a Doctor-lite story.

Er...you did notice that she's just got VAPORISED, right?

Nitcentral should at least have the decency to PRETEND for a day or two that maybe the Master is actually dead this time before starting to discuss her inevitable reappearance...;)

Yeah. Noticed that in Planet of Fire too.

Even Moffat's hinting at it now.

As this is science fiction, and she has time travel at her disposal, she could easily have transmatted away a nanosecond before the destructive part of the beam killed her.

Given that the TCE was shaped like a male Johnson, the Master must have had huge pen*s envy, which now he's female must be...

A darker take on the Master's possible return, made before season 8 started of course.

@Judi, "TCE"????

A darker take on the Master's possible return

Blimey.

We don't want a Master as evil as TYRION LANNISTER, thank you very much.

TCE=Tissue Compression Eliminator.

The weapon the Master used to turn people into dolls.

Wacky Things Fans Say #10,000:

Elsewhere, the Master has been accused of being a pedophile for kidnapping Adric and tying him up in the web in Castrovalva.

1. Adric is a teenager, not a child.

2. the Master has never shown any interest in children or teenagers that go beyond actual use to him (such as Adric's maths ability).

'They are different parts of one psyche, with the Master being the Id and the Doctor the Ego...When the Doctor's location was known [the Time Lords] arrested him. [In Terror of the Autons], despite knowing exactly where the Master was, they just tipped the Doctor off to him. Given that one is a homicidal maniac and the other is just a bit rude, this seems like a questionable reaction...The Master, being a part of the Doctor as opposed to an individual in his own right, isn't the Time Lords' to deal with. The Doctor is the only one who can fix this problem.'

Alternatively, of course, there could (DWM Archive) just have been a cut scene where said Time Lord explained to the Doctor that 'The Tribunal attempted to imprison the Master but he was helped to escape; alien interference clouded their monitors, and the Master escaped in his TARDIS before it could be de-energised'...

Death in Heaven:

I SO NEED a flashback scene of Simm becoming Missy...

'Sweet planet, this. I think I might keep it' - I know a lot of things (like saying 'Take me to your leader') feel thrillingly new when you're in your new body, but for THE MASTER to say this about the planet s/he's already attempted to conquer about 95 times (and actually ruled for a year) is a bit odd.

'Look at me, I'm bananas' - would a MALE Master say that? I'm thinking...not.

Ditto for 'Cyber-dears. Look at Mummy.'

She's also a LOT more open about the fact her entire life is a cry for attention from the Doctor.

The Doctor is also, interestingly, much more ready to cold-bloodedly execute the Master as soon as he becomes female...

'If you ever let this creature live, everything that's happened today is on you' - well, I'm glad SOMEONE'S made that point to the Doctor at last. Should have been the Brig, perhaps, when Pertwee was 'rather looking forward' to his chum coming back to try to wipe out the human race again. Or Nyssa when the Master was walking round in her dad's body after wiping out half the universe...

I don't know WHY the Master makes all those pathetic bids for the Doctor's attention when there's someone right here on Earth who's obviously insanely devoted to her/him...

The Master's Face

Wasn't there a Making of Dr Who book that said that the Master would insist on a place amongst the monsters and use that sobriquet??

Ah, but DOES the Master think of him/herself as evil?

S/he's not the 'Your evil is my good!' Black Guardian.

There's a line in Face of the Enemy (Pertwee PDA) where he says 'When I look into the mirror, I don't see the face of the enemy.'

Even his decimation of Earth was for a higher purpose - a new Gallifrey in the heavens.

And all she really wants is her friend back.

How does the Master do that hypnotism? Well it isn't only the Master but the Doctor as well. They both seem to have that power. Also the Force from Star Wars can cause this effect. My best guess is that superior minds have always had control over weaker ones. (just look at Napoleon).

I'm not so sure. The Master had great difficulty controlling even such substandard brains as Peri's and Jo's. And of the Doctors, only Seven demonstrated any REAL skill at hypnosis. (Sure, Four hypnotised Sarah a couple of times but they had a very close friendship, she trusted him completely (more fool her) and he knew her inside-out, it was no great accomplishment.)

And Missy will be back next season!!! YES!!! (Now can they bring back Osgood too?)

SOMEONE'S gotta die in a very permanent way when vaporised. Osgood obviously picked the short straw. It's probably her own fault for not taking sensible precautions like downloading her soul into her specs.

It's probably her own fault for not taking sensible precautions like downloading her soul into her specs.

Would have done her no good. Missy steps on them after she incinerates her.

Oh, a soul can survive getting stomped on a bit.

I should know, Eccy's been stomping on mine for TEN YEARS.

Whose willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that Osgood's sister who looks identical to her, will make an appearance?

Wasn't Osgood's sister supposed to be a lot prettier?

She could have ANOTHER sister...

She was probably uploaded to the nethersphere like every other dead human. They could try to bring her back from that angle.

I hope not. The more Who messes around with downloading souls, the less plausible I find it.

Roberts just seemed all over the place, he was speaking monosyllabically like a caveman or something, then he was English and proper, then he was snarling and grandiose... and Roberts himself when interviewed about playing the Master (having claimed to be a big Who fan) was talking about how the Master is a grandiose over-the-top villain... no, Eric

Roberts just seemed all over the place, he was speaking monosyllabically like a caveman or something, then he was English and proper, then he was snarling and grandiose...

Maybe he was having problems controlling his stolen body...?

Nah, probably not. Bruce the paramedic WAS safely dead, we don't have a Meglos-style situation.

Roberts himself when interviewed about playing the Master (having claimed to be a big Who fan) was talking about how the Master is a grandiose over-the-top villain... no, Eric

Well, s/he is SOMETIMES.

Admittedly mainly when s/he's Eric Roberts.

Pah! Eric Roberts is the only thing that makes the TV Movie worth watching. There's a reason he turns up in Christopher Nolan and Paul Thomas Anderson films while Paul McGann narrates BBC2 documentaries about plane crashes!

Since The Moff is bringing Missy back, I wonder if they'll explain how a he became a she. Judging by the look on the Doctor's face (when Missy revealed her identity to him) Time Lords changing sex is not a normal thing.

Well the Master is rather atypical anyway: stealing a Traken body; turning into a catperson; turning into a snake; stealing an earth body; somehow becoming a Time Lord again...

Time Lords changing sex is not a normal thing

Except a couple of seasons back, when it was.

See under, "making things up as he goes along, Steve Moffat".

We're getting Mark "It's actually pronounced Gaytis because I'm gay" as our next showrunner. You'll be begging Moffat to come back....

Time Lords changing sex is not a normal thing

Except a couple of seasons back, when it was.

That's not quite fair. It was always BLATANTLY OBVIOUS to any non-sexists that OF COURSE Time Lords COULD change sex, it just wasn't COMMON. That didn't change with the Corsair OR Missy.

We're getting Mark "It's actually pronounced Gaytis because I'm gay" as our next showrunner. You'll be begging Moffat to come back....

The fact that Gatiss hasn't written many all-time classics (aside from Crimson Horror of course, WORSHIP IT!!) doesn't mean he wouldn't make a great showrunner. Just as the fact Moffat always wrote the best story in any Russell T God season hasn't made him a better showrunner than RTG.

I daresay given who the other main contender for showrunner is (Chibnall), I think Gatiss would be an excellent choice. He just needs to step away from writing duties for Sherlock.

Oh, thanks, Rodney - that'll kill Sherlock stone dead if the writing/showrunning is left to Moffat alone.

Sacrifices must be made.

(HUMAN sacrifices if necessary.)

And it's not as if Sherlock doesn't take a few years off ALL THE TIME even with two showrunners...

s8 - which I thoroughly enjoyed at first - but then all the "wake me up when a real Master shows up and he's obviously played by a man" started, and I just couldn't be buggered caring anymore, really.

You survived KILL THE MOON and IN THE FOREST OF THE NIGHT but you just couldn't face the fact the Master was A BIT DIFFERENT AFTER REGENERATION...?!

no, no, what i couldn't stand was the sexism from fandom about a female Master.

I didn't mind the female Master. It was an interesting twist for the character.

what i couldn't stand was the sexism from fandom about a female Master.

Oh, I SEE, sorry.

I didn't mind the female Master. It was an interesting twist for the character.

Hear, hear.

So is the Master a man in a woman's body? Or does she really FEEL like a Time Lady now? Having been male for several centuries you'd think s/he'd be mentally stuck in that default position, but then s/he's also been a human and a snake and a decayed zombie-corpse so maybe s/he's just...really flexible?

Until we get some backstory, we'll never know. Did he regenerate into a woman or did he take over a woman's body the he did Tremas'?

That's a point. I was just ASSUMING it was a regeneration (being stuck on the same planet as Rassilon for millennia would cause SERIOUS PROBLEMS) but then the Doctor didn't notice that she had two hearts, even when he was groping her chest...

Regeneration rearranges the mind as well as the body, so it is fair to assume the Missy sees herself as female as much as if she had been born that way.

Did Tremas really die when the Master merged with him? Or, as some have postulated, does Tremas live on as a helpless prisoner in the Master's mind?

And why does NYSSA never think about this?

Because the Fourth Doctor said that Tremas was dead in Logopolis.

But even I don't take EVERY word of Tom's as gospel truth!

Nyssa was a bit thick in Logopolis... not wondering why her father looks thirty years younger and is suddenly on a different planet...

Yeah, that was particularly puzzling to me as a kid (and, let's face it, for decades afterwards) because I don't recognise faces. Until I've seen someone on an extremely regular basis for a very long time, I pretty much have to identify people by their hair. So I couldn't for the life of me work out why Nyssa was fooled by someone TOTALLY DIFFERENT to long-grey-haired old Tremas saying 'Hi, I'm your dad!'

Logopolis was just a bad story. It didn't help that Tom Baker was phoning it in throughout. It seemed he was counting down the moments until he could be out of there.

Boy, have YOU missed the whole oh-••••-I'm-gonna-die subtext of Tom's lugubriousness in Logopolis...

Not that I'd've blamed Tom if he HAD been phoning it in. His resignation should NEVER have been accepted and his last story should NEVER have been as boring, incomprehensible and illogical as Logopolis.

From what I understand, Tom Baker did that at the end of every season. He was say he was leaving, and Graham Williams begged him to stay. When he did the same thing with JNT, JNT basically said, "Okay, Tom. Have it your way." Tom's own policy came back to bite him in the butt here.

I agree that his swan song should have been a much better story. He was, and still is, the longest serving Doctor, he deserved better.

From what I understand, Tom Baker did that at the end of every season. He was say he was leaving, and Graham Williams begged him to stay. When he did the same thing with JNT, JNT basically said, "Okay, Tom. Have it your way." Tom's own policy came back to bite him in the butt here.

Yes, that's certainly the impression I get too. Hand of Fear should REALLY have taught him that this is an EXTREMELY RISKY strategy...

what about Hand of Fear?

Sarah said she's packing her goodies and she's going home...and then gets a bit of a surprise when the Doctor promptly bundles her out of the TARDIS door...

KEVIN in Original Series: Season Eighteen: Logopolis:

I do find Ainley's Master to be one-dimensional, just evil and nothing else (I mean, making a deadlier version of the TCE, really now). Delgado had more layers to him.

Doctors get the Masters they deserve. One dimension was MORE than enough for Davison to cope with. By the time he was facing McCoy (I'm ignoring the Master's Colin stories because, frankly, he might as well not have HAD any Colin stories) Ainley had suddenly become MUCH more interesting, sinister and adorable, by the simple expedient of turning half-oochie.

(I'm ignoring the Master's Colin stories because, frankly, he might as well not have HAD any Colin stories

Colin just can't catch a break from you, Emily.

That honestly wasn't a dig at Colin (for once). It's due to the fact that it would have made NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER if Ainley HADN'T had the embarrassment of briefly popping up to play second-fiddle to the Rani and the Valeyard (the RANI and the VALEYARD, for gods' sakes!).

Of course, the Master only had one McCoy story, and it was the last story of Classic Who.

From: the Doctor

To: Writers of fanfiction where the Master goes all soft and emotional

Dear writers:

The Master hates Gallifrey and the Time Lords. He also hates children. If he ever got his hands on a young child, he would probably throw it into a fire and laugh as it burned. I would not let the Master blow up a planet just because he was feeling "depressed" at that moment.

The Master hates Gallifrey and the Time Lords.

Don't we all?

The gits MURDERED OUR TROUGHTON.

He also hates children.

TOTALLY failing to see why this is A Bad Thing.

If he ever got his hands on a young child, he would probably throw it into a fire and laugh as it burned.

The Master has encountered many rug-rats. NEVER ONCE has he chucked ANY of 'em into the flames.

I would not let the Master blow up a planet just because he was feeling "depressed" at that moment

Oh, why the hell NOT?

When Missy returns, I hope she fills us in on what happened between the events of Tennant's last season and Capaldi's first.

I mean the Master was duking it out with Rassilon when Gallifrey went back into the time lock. Did the two of them stop fighting after Gallifrey was sent into another dimension. Did they join the ranks of Time Lords calling the Doctor? Did they help renew his regeneration cycle?

When did the Master become Missy, nick a TARDIS and Matrix, and come to Earth to covert the dead into Cyberbeings?

YES! WE NEED TO KNOW!

Though of course we ARE all assuming that the Doctor and Master are meeting in order, as per usual...

You don't suppose Capaldi Doctor is the one who exiles Missy at the end of the universe, where she turns into nice professor Yana and ends up meeting Tennant Doctor? That would be really timey wimey.

Though of course we ARE all assuming that the Doctor and Master are meeting in order, as per usual...

Missy tells the Doctor that when he saved Gallifrey, he saved her. So, yeah, it's in the right order.

My god, does she really? Well spotted.

This is from the novelist who gave the Master the name Koschei from a Russian fairytale: if (as River pointed) "good wizards in fairy tales always turn out to be him" [The Doctor], Then what can assume of the bad ones...?

Well, Voldemort isn't particularly Master-like, neither are those Russian evil wizards who hack off a bit of themselves and hide it away to ensure immortality - if anything it's THE DOCTOR who does such things *coughHandTennantcough*.

we ARE all assuming that the Doctor and Master are meeting in order

Aha! The Moff in DWM: 'In my head, as it stands [Missy]'s the one after John. But my researches aren't complete so I'd better say nothing, as I've been wrong before. You could have knocked me over with a feather when the War Doctor turned up' -

Many are those who would have knocked him over with something heavier.

As I said, Missy tells the Doctor that he saved her by saving Gallifrey. It looks like she is the next regeneration after John Simm.

In New Series: Season Eight: Deep Breath:

ME: The Doctor 'Can be very mean, except to me of course, because he loves me' - alright, I realise Missy's bananas but if I can name loads of REALLY NASTY things the Doc did to the poor old Master...

ROBERT: But does the Master think they're nasty? He seems to think trying to kill the Doctor is a form of playfully affectionate teasing, much like human boys gently patting girls on the shoulder. He may well think all the things the Doctor has done to him were also signs of affection.

No sane person would believe that, of course, but we've long known the Master is not exactly a model of sanity.

That's...a point. You'd think s/he'd hold SOME things against Our Hero - standing round watching the Master burn to death in Planet of Fire, ignoring his pleas for mercy FOR EXAMPLE - but then for all we know the Master ENJOYS burning to death. He certainly topped himself TOTALLY UNNECESSARILY in Last of the Time Lords, just for a laugh.

but you just couldn't face the fact the Master was A BIT DIFFERENT AFTER REGENERATION...?!

Although, the look on the Doctor's face when Missy tells him who she is indicates that this is not normal.

Mind you, I think Michelle Gomez makes a good Master.

the look on the Doctor's face when Missy tells him who she is indicates that this is not normal.

The Doctor looked equally shocked when he discovered Professor Yana had a fob-watch, though...

for Anthony Ainley himself, his best and most enjoyable outing as the Master actually was Destiny of the Doctors. Yes, he really Takes It Up To Eleven in Destiny, but god it's enjoyable. And at times, you get to see some insights into how Ainley wanted to play the Master, free of the JNT machine.

Good for him. My favourite Master moments are usually when they're totally OTT. Delgado pretending to be a vicar, Simm dancing to the Scissor Sisters, Roberts' incredibly camp 'I always drezzz for the occasion', Ainley turning into a p u s s y-cat, Gomez singing Missy songs before vaporising Osgood and stamping on her specs...

And for those of you who are wondering about 'Destiny of the Doctors'...

https://youtu.be/yoJ_m5pH0-o

I rather like Ainley with some gray hair-- he's closer to Delgado with that look.
Not sure about the Pertwee-esque maroon jacket, however, instead of an all-black ensemble.

I rather like Ainley with some gray hair-- he's closer to Delgado with that look.

Unfortunately he's also closer to the Master from Curse of Fatal Death, so I have to confess to a certain amount of pointing and laughing...

Dark Water/Death in Heaven:

'REST IN PEACE WE PROMISE' - what a liar that Master is. ('I might have been guilty of just a teensy little fibbet' - bless!)

Missy's prepared to snog Clara too! That's quite sweet of her, given how she killed Osgood when the Doctor said he'd take her aboard the TARDIS so her feelings towards the woman the Eleventh Doctor REALLY fancied can't exactly be fond.

But...but...'Dr Skorosa' ISN'T an anagram of 'Master'! What the hell is going on here!

What, the fact the dead outnumber the living is humanity's key strategic weakness? Whatever happened to it being ease of suffocation?

'Cybermen don't just blow themselves up for no good reason, dear. They're not human' - blimey, even MISSY can't stand suicide bombers.

'We've got files on our all former Prime Ministers...she wasn't even the worst' - bless! (Though what IS gender-etiquette for sex-changing Time Lords? Saxon was a 'he' not a 'she' after all...)

'Have you got any more friends I can play with' - yes! Clara! Go after Clara!

'One burning Cyberman is hardly going to save the planet' - OK, which bit of HE'S GOT THE MAGIC BRACELET is the Master somehow failing to comprehend?

The Master is the Doctor's "Emmanuel Goldstein", a mortal enemy that poses no threat whatsoever.

"Winston's diaphragm was constricted. He could never see the face of Goldstein without a painful mixture of emotions. It was a lean Jewish face, with a great fuzzy aureole of white hair and a small goatee beard - a clever face, and yet somehow inherently despicable, with a kind of senile silliness in the long thin nose, near the end of which a pair of spectacles was perched. It resembled the face of a sheep, and the voice, too, had a sheep-like quality. Goldstein was delivering his usual venemous attack upon the doctrines of the Party - an attack so exaggerated and perverse that a child should have been able to see through it, and yet just plausible enough to fill one with an alarmed feeling that other people, less level-headed than oneself, might be taken in by it. He was abusing BIG BROTHER, he was denouncing the dictatorship of the Party, he was demanding the immediate conclusion of peace with Eurasia, he was advocating freedom of speech, freedom of the Press, freedom of assembly, freedom of thought, he was crying hysterically that the Revolution has been betrayed - and all this in rapid polysyllabic speech which was a sort of parody of the habitual style of the orators of the Party, and even contained Newspeak words: more Newspeak words, indeed, than any Party member would normally use in real life. And all the while, lest one should be in any doubt as to the reality which Goldstein's specious clap trap covered, behind his head on the telescreen there marched the endless columns of the Eurasian army - row after row of solid-looking men with expressionless Asiatic faces, who swam up to the surface of the screen and vanished, to be replaced by others exactly similar. The dull rhythmic tramp of the soldiers' boots formed the background to Goldstein's bleating voice."

This only works if one of the Doctor's companions had already tracked the Master down to Mexico and murdered him.

Since we already have a couple of Time Lordy/Faction Paradoxy explanations of Rasputin's miraculous near-invulnerability to assassination attempts, we really need something similar for Trotsky's capacity to function normally/kick assassin backside despite having a ruddy great ice-pick stuck in his brain. Such a story could feature Frida Kahlo and bodyguard-turned-science-fiction-writer Bernard Wolfe and I want to watch it a lot more than anything the Moff has lined up for this year.

Magician's Apprentice:

OK, so the Clangers (Sea Devils) and the Teletubbies (Sound of Drums) are one thing, but PLAYSCHOOL ('Today I shall be talking to you through...the square window')? The Master is just SICK.

Still no mention of the drums?

'How's your boyfriend? Still tremendously dead, I expect' - I think I've just accidentally fallen in love with the Master. Though how did Clara refrain from ripping her throat out (or at least looking vaguely upset)? And does this mean Missy's still spying on Clara's every move, cos how else would she know that Danny had passed up the opportunity to resurrect himself via that godawful magic bracelet?

'Dead is for other people, dear' - in which case, why was s/he quite so furious about life being wasted on the living in the telemovie?

'NO! I've not turned GOOT!' - love the way she gets more Scottish as she gets more evil. If this hadn't been written and performed by Scots there might possibly be accusations of racism...

'It's the wicked stepmother everyone. Hiss!' - well, THAT'S a new way of dealing with your arch-enemy.

Anyone else feeling a DESPERATE need to see River and Missy go head-to-head?

'It must be love.'
'Don't be disgusting. We’re Time Lords, not animals! Try, nano-brain, to rise above the reproductive frenzy of your noisy little food chain, and contemplate friendship. A friendship older than your civilisation, and infinitely more complex.'

Wow.

A friendship older than your civilisation, and infinitely more complex.

A nice line, but what does it imply about the Master's age?

Human civilisation is roughly 4000 to 5000 years old. Is Missy really claiming she's known the Doctor that long?

Alternately, Missy might have meant English civilisation, not human civilisation. When does she think England became civilised?

1066 would imply they've known each other for at least 949 years, which fits well enough with other references to the Doctor's age.

Mot even William the Conqueror's Number One Fan could claim that enslaving most of the population and wiping out the North of England CIVILISED the country, surely. And you're forgetting the Doc's 900-1,000 years sitting on his - um, I mean nobly defending the good people of Trenzalore. He's well over 2,000, and if Missy wants to imply we were slightly on the non-civilised side a couple of millennia ago, who are we to disagree?

Lovely echo of Scaroth's dialogue, by the way. 'An infinitely old race and an infinitely superior one...'

'An infinitely old race and an infinitely superior one...'

I always wished C. S. Lewis had used that for Aslan's race.

Wasn't Aslan supposed to be a bit of a one-off? Being Jesus Christ (or something)?

Mot even William the Conqueror's Number One Fan could claim that enslaving most of the population and wiping out the North of England CIVILISED the country

No sane human would claim that, but Missy is neither. She may see mass killing as a sign of affection, much like the deadly games she plays with the Doctor.

In any case, "English civilisation" would almost certainly be dated to a period long before the Norman Conquest*, given that that was basically about invading English civilisation...

(* The 880s would be a good bet as the period when Alfred united the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms, but as Doctor Who fans we're also obliged to consider 'Britain AD 408' as a credible alternative.)

She may see mass killing as a sign of affection, much like the deadly games she plays with the Doctor.

I don't think the Master's ever seen MASS murder as a sign of affection. When s/he wiped out half the universe it was a TOTAL ACCIDENT. S/he likes to leave the Doctor more personalised reminders of her existence - scientists in lunchboxes, strangling telephone cords, that sort of FUN. Alright, so SIMM decimated Earth's population but that almost certainly wasn't a sign of AFFECTION for the Doctor any more than the dog bowl was. THAT was a Master who was DEEPLY HURT (for some as yet unascertained reason) that the Doc had wiped out their homeworld.

The 880s would be a good bet as the period when Alfred united the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms

If only Who didn't attempt to write Alfred out of history in favour of some Athelstan creature.

but as Doctor Who fans we're also obliged to consider 'Britain AD 408' as a credible alternative.

We ARE? WHY?

That's the title of a Malcolm Hulke historical from season one that didn't happen. (They decided to go with 'The Hidden Planet' instead. That turned out well too.)

Witch's Familiar:

'Mummy's talking' - what a great way for a villain to shut the Companion up.

'Not seeing you as sandwiches now' - SO CUTE!

Missy claims the Doctor gave her (him?) a dark star brooch 'When my daughter -' She's TOTALLY LYING, right?

'Time Lady, thank you. SOME of us can afford the upgrade' - *swoons with joy*

Anyone else feeling like changing this to the Missy Who programme? Clara can stay on as the side-kick, of course.

'THIS is why I gave her to you' says Missy, before going into a confusing ramble about friends and enemies. I can see why she'd want the Doctor to get the two concepts confused, but did she REALLY foresee sticking Clara in a Dalek? I thought her whole motivation was to give the Doctor a control-freak who'd control him all the way to hell? Admittedly THAT never made much sense either.

I saw 'the Master' and instantly heard Missy's Scottish accent drawling in my ear. None of her male predecessors were EVER so utterly eclipsed by the current model.

Hopefully she's also killed off that 'can't have a woman Doctor' thing once and for all.

I saw 'the Master' and instantly heard Missy's Scottish accent drawling in my ear. None of her male predecessors were EVER so utterly eclipsed by the current model.
Better then Delgardo? To paraphrase one E. Carter, "I respect your opinion it just happens to be wrong". Don't get me wrong the actress and the potential are good it's just the writing that lets him/her down.

Hopefully she's also killed off that 'can't have a woman Doctor' thing once and for all.
I doubt it as 11 was shocked for a second after regen when he thought he might have become a girl and it's more then likely the Master used one of his many body hijacking tricks again, (given the, "Dr. Skaro" nameplate in her debut ep I'd bet the film's transparent snake thing).
Unless things change you has at least 11 more incarnations of him as a woman so at least you have that.

The Doctor's always essentially the same person beneath the superficial changes like the recorder and the decorative vegetable and the Tennant shouting. But the personality of the Delgado Master doesn't seem like it suits the character we've come to know.
But that surely is the fault of the writing for the later versions of the character, not the original. He came first, after all. It is they who failed to conform to him, not him who failed to conform to them. ;) Because things change and develop. Doctor Who the show, as it is now, doesn't seem like it suits the show of the 1960s or 70s, but it is still the same show. It's just a show that's undergone many changes. So it is with the character of the Master. He's changed enormously over the years, through different writers and production visions, but that original version of him is nonetheless the Master. People might appreciate Delgado more if they take him on his own terms, rather than projecting the later versions onto him.

Francois Lacombe:
Reminds me of the battle between good Superman and evil Superman in Superman 3. That was a bad idea too.

Not as bad as Superman IV where Supes is faced by Nuclear Man who is *so* alpha male he has hair as long as a girl's!

It's not easy to give those guys a haircut

Moffat in DWM, re the Magician's Apprentice world premiere: 'The roars of approval she got throughout it, whatever she was doing! Even when she was shooting innocent soldiers - which I thought might be a stern reminder that she's a terrible person - everybody just clapped and cheered. It doesn't matter what Michelle does; they just love her' - ahhhh, I'm getting a flashback to Doctor Who: A Celebration: 'A group of youngsters watching the actors at work [on The Daemons] were asked to join in and hiss and boo when the Master was captured...Oh no, the youngers declared emphatically, they liked the Master too much and wanted to cheer him instead!'

Regeneration. It really WORKS, doesn't it.

Just finished my re-watching of all of the Master episodes, from "Terror of the Autons" through "The Witch's Familiar". Here's my snap judgement of all different Masters:


Delgado: First Master is best Master.. Overused a bit, is all.

Beevers/Pratt: OK, but I never really liked the Zombie Master all that much.

Ainley: Excellent choice to play the part, generally bogged down by ****** writing.

Roberts: Not bad, Could have turned the Overacting Dial down from 11 to about 9.

Jacobi: Great, for the brief period that he was the Master.

Simm: Took a little getting used to, but I grew to like him.

Gomez: I like her in the part. I hope they'll use her again from time to time, but not overuse her.

No love for Norman Stanley or Gordon Tipple?!

Who?

The other credited actors to have played the Master in the TV series/movie.

So *wracks brains* the figure exterminated by the squeaky Daleks and the kid who gazes into the Untempered Schism? Surely if you're including the telemovie blink-and-you-miss-it thing you should include any HAVOC body-doubles as well...?

They're not credited in acting roles though (and I don't believe The Untempered Schism Kid* is either). Gordon Tipple, however, is credited on-screen for the TV Movie**, as is Norman Stanley on 'Terror of the Autons', and he even gets lines!

* The lead character in a very peculiar western.
** Probably because he was going to be a speaking part until Fox executives panicked after seeing the rough cut and decided that what this TVM needed was a voiceover from a bored Paul McGann instead.

Credits aren't CANON!

Somehow I've never got it into my head that telephone-repair-guy-whose-bottom-Mike-Yates-was-ogling was a REAL Master. No rubber mask in sight, for starters.

Ah, bless. Missy filmed a decoy line in public for the Dark Water cliffhanger - 'I'm Missy. Or, if you'd prefer, Random Access Neural Integrator. Rani for short.' So sad that no listeners shopped that to Gallifrey Base and caused a meltdown. For her real 'Master' line 'she mouthed the words, the audio to be dubbed on later' - DAMMIT if you were so keen to keep THAT secret why did you call her 'Missy', resulting in Who fans making the obvious deduction of 'Missy = Mistress = Master' about two seconds later?

Sound of Drums and Last of the Time Lords:

Why does the Master put up with nag, nag, nag from those irritating squeaky brattish Toclafane all the time? I'd've wiped THEM off the face of the universe before I started decimating humanity any day.

I'm sorry, Simm is great but when it comes to being BANANAS Gomez wipes the floor with him. He just has such a pleasant open face. She...doesn't.

What made Master so sure that the Cult of Saxon would keep the faith after the Archangel Network stopped drumming his commands into them?

'My children' - ah, he DOES care about the Toclafane, unlike any of his previous allies. That's so sweet. (Also...WHY, for heaven's sake?)

'Will it stop, Doctor? The drumming? Will it stop?' - is THAT why he tops himself - to try to stop the drumbeat rather than to save himself ten minutes escaping from the Doctor custody?* But he's died before ('The Time Lords resurrected me') and THAT didn't stop the drums. (Though apparently changing sex DID.)

*Or possibly several months if the Doctor had the sense to provide him with Clangers/Teletubbies programmes.

"With the Doctor as my enemy, I always have the advantage." Then why do you always lose?

Lose? The Master doesn't LOSE! All those failed invasions were just, um, little calling-cards to attract the Doctor's attention and make him squirm before the final denouement any century now...

And honestly, someone utterly ruthless v a humanitarian SHOULD always give the Master the advantage. That Doctor MUST be CHEATING...

The End of Time:

The Doctor and the Master can literally sniff each other out? Eek. And...why did the Master bother with all those disguises, none of which the Doctor ever managed to see through - er, smell through?
 
'I think all the peoples of the universe dream of him now' - WHAT! Isn't that, well...OVERKILL? The TIME WAR ITSELF was invisible to the lesser species but if the Master pops back from the dead for the umpteenth time, suddenly the ENTIRE COSMOS'S subconscious is disturbed?
 
'Not that you'd call it childhood. A life of duty' - oh, come on! There was plenty of running-across-the-grass and ruining-each-other's-time-travel-experiments and suchlike!

Now might be a wonderful moment to casually drop into the conversation that in SOME incarnations the drums are REALLY SOFT...hardly worth mentioning...

'This body was born out of death, all it can do is die' - or there's this thing called regeneration...

'That's how the Master started' the Doctor tells Wilf, vis-a-vis killing someone before they can kill you. Well, either the other person had already committed multiple genocides or it's a really stupid comparison. (Either way, so much for that godawful 'Master' audio's claims about how the Master got started. And that stupid Dark Path MA too.)

'I don't need him. Any second now, I'll have Time Lords to spare. Take him out. Launch missiles!' - yeah but you're not BFFs with any of the OTHER Time Lords! Whatever happened to 'A friendship older than your civilisation, and infinitely more complex'??

'Let me ascend into glory' – since when has the Master fancied disembodied glory?

The ••••• is back!

'Interestingly, the character of the Master was in fact originally conceived of as a woman by Barry Letts during the 1970s' - since WHEN!

'It is, ultimately, a good time to be a Doctor Who fan!' - no it isn't.

A question inspired by the 'Sound of Drums' discussion: would the young Master ever followed his best friend up the mountain to see what he was doing?

What would he have thought of K'Anpo? Would K'Anpo have been willing to teach him?

would the young Master ever followed his best friend up the mountain to see what he was doing?

Definitely.

It's love, after all.

Or at least, a friendship older than our civilisation, and infinitely more complex.

And presumably it was the Master who made that the worst day of the Doctor's life, the day that sent him scurrying up that stupid mountain to that stupid hermit...

What would he have thought of K'Anpo?

A rival for the Doctor's attention, of course!

Would K'Anpo have been willing to teach him?

K'Anpo would certainly have been willing to point at daisies in this hope this would lead the Master to enlightenment.

The REAL question is WHY THE HELL the Master didn't blow K'Anpo, his daisy, AND his mountain to Kingdom Come.

WHY THE HELL the Master didn't blow K'Anpo, his daisy, AND his mountain to Kingdom Come.

Greetings, weary traveler! Welcome to the "We Hate K'Anpo club!

K'Anpo would certainly have been willing to point at daisies in this hope this would lead the Master to enlightenment.

And it worked, like the daisy the Master pops up everywhere, unstoppable, and just when you think you've got that darn weed out of your lawn... it returns!

So K'Anpo is responsible for THE MASTER as well as for DRIVING PERTWEE TO SUICIDE!

I have SO joined the We Hate K'Anpo Club.

Is there a badge?

Magician's Apprentice/Witch's Familiar:

'I love killing clever-clogs, they make the best faces' - my god, someone must rewatch ALL the Master stories to see if this is true!

How serious is Missy about eating Clara? When she was a man she never ate people unless her/his biology had been TOTALLY screwed up by stupid black magic resurrection spells.

'In future, if you're going to take my stick, do me the courtesy of actually killing me' - dammit she gets ALL the best lines. Remember that rumour that she was gonna be the Season 9/35 Companion? THAT REALLY SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED.

So adorable, calling Sexy the Dog's Unmentionables. My how times have changed since Delgado was grumbling that 'You may as well try to fly a second hand gas stove!'

The Rani is more serious. I mean, even when she did something stupid like dress up as Mel, her personality was very serious. Missy is a bit crazier then The Master's other incarnations were, but I can see how the character gets from Delgado to her with the craziness ramping up almost every incarnation.

Of course, the drums didn't help.

Presumably they were just REALLY SOFT in Delgado's day.

I tend to think, had Delgado lived the Master onscreen would've stayed forever associated with him and the Pertwee era. Perhaps only beginning to get around to creating a new incarnation during the Big Finish audios... with Roger having been returned opposite Jon for a BBC radio adventure around 1993.


Probably leaving the field open for a female nemesis like the Rani to be invented earlier and then become the recurring villain across different Doctors, in the way Ainley stuck around.

Thank you. I'm now imagining Anthony Ainley running around with a wig and fake breasts. 8-o

Haven't we all at one point imagined that?

WOULD the Master be fit for resurrection even by Big Finish if Delgado had lived a bit longer and his final story had gone with that godawful 'Id' idea?

All that effort by the Master/Missy... just to get the attention of the Doctor and beg/blackmail him to be friends. You really start to pity the Master, as well as utterly loathe him for the empathy-lacking psychopath that he/she is. The Master simply cannot comprehend that the Doctor wouldn't fall for all that stupid tempting to become some sort of overlord of humanity and/or known space.

Though to be fair, the Doc bloody LOVED poncing about on that plane being President of Earth.

And at least once he'd turned female, the Master was prepared to ADMIT that her/his entire life had just been one desperate plea for the Doctor's attention...

IS a psychopath capable of feeling the depth of emotions for another person that the Master clearly feels for the Doctor?

IS a psychopath capable of feeling the depth of emotions for another person that the Master clearly feels for the Doctor?

Emotion? Probably not. Obsession however? Yeah, most definitely.

So I suppose the question is - IS it emotion or obsession?

'Try, nano-brain, to rise above the reproductive frenzy of your noisy little food chain, and contemplate friendship. A friendship older than your civilisation, and infinitely more complex' sounds like emotion to ME. Though I suppose it could be emotion for SOME incarnations (Missy) and obsession for others (pizza-face)? You can obviously have SOME regenerations that are psychopaths (Hi Colin!) and others that aren't, it's not an immutable character-trait.

Moffat: 'Missy can hear drums still - they've just got into a more funky rhythm now. Have you seen the way she walks? They've got into a Michelle Gomez rhythm and she's moving in ways which defy description.'

Hmm.

Davison on Ainley: 'He had secrets... I think that wig was the start of the secrets, then the fact that he still lived with his mother, but still, in his mind, he was a kind of a... not a womaniser exactly, but... he mentioned women that he'd been out with. And he was a big wuss, I remember...Whenever we had special effects - an explosion or anything like that - he'd start to shake' - well, honestly, everyone always said Delgado was BRAVE because HE was terrified of water.

When playing Kalid, 'he had to wear a bald pate - and Anthony wouldn't acknowledge to the Make-Up department that he was already wearing a wig. He said, "You'll have to put the bald pate over my hair," and they were going, "Okay. Um..." In the end, they had to go to John Nathan-Turner and say, "We can't do this..." So John had to go to him and have this difficult conversation: "Look, Anthony, everyone knows you're wearing a wig' - well, I didn't!

So Ainley actually looked like Yul Brynner?

Hey, Boo! Does anyone remember that DWM letter writer that thought that the Master's real name was Jehoshaphat Jackanapes based on TOTA and TFD?

"What can you do, thought Winston, against the lunatic who is more intelligent than yourself, who gives your arguments a fair hearing, and then simply persists in his lunacy?"
— George Orwell, 1984

The ••••• is back!

What I want to see is the Master/Missy with her own TARDIS. We haven't seen a non-Sexy TARDIS since...when? Dinosaurs broke out of the Rani's?

The instance that posted I remembered how the last series ended.

Could the console from The Doctors Wife count as well - think of it as a kit car (or maybe a stripped out track-day car), compared to the full vintage model.

Man I wish I could edit my posts.

Man I wish I could edit my posts.

Anyone who wants their posts edited just has to leave a message saying what they want done and I'll do it.

So basically Old Who had TARDII from the Doctor, Monk (suspiciously similar to the Doc's IIRC), Master (suspiciously similar to the Doc's painted black IIRC) and Rani and New Who had 'em from the Doctor, Clara and a junkyard.

In DWM’s The Master issue on the feature on John Simm, the intro stated that In his role as the Master that he “brought a hint of Tony Blair to the arch villain-tured- Prime Minister.”

Ironically when The Sound of Drums was first broadcast on Saturday June 23 2007 it was on the same weekend that the ruling Labour Party in Britain elected Gordon Brown to succeed Tony Blair as its leader and thus Prime Minister.
So Simm as Harold Saxon was emulating a real-life Prime Minister whose time in office was ending.

Spoilers for Season 10/36:

John Simm is back!

Well, who WOULDN'T want to experience TWO Masters facing off against each other?

Oh, OK...anyone who listened to Big Finish's Seventh Doctor audio The Two Masters.

But ASIDE from us misfortunates...rejoice! A bit. Maybe. Look, I'm sorry, I just don't see Simm holding his own for two seconds flat against Missy. She just seems like so much more of a NATURAL at being totally psycho.

And what's wrong with rounding up Eric Roberts as well, eh? EH?

And what's wrong with rounding up Eric Roberts as well, eh? EH?

Be careful what you wish for.

The Master has been (the definition of) a panto villain since 1971 but we have been fortunate, on the whole, that s/he has been played by very good actors. The key to casting the character is to make sure that s/he is a dark and warped reflection of the current Doctor Who. I'd say that only the 1980s failed to realise this, which was not the fault of Anthony Ainley.

Hmm, I wonder, bring back Eric Roberts and have him do that weird venom-spitting thing from the movie. Then have Simm and Gomez staring at him with embarrassed looks. "I'm glad we outgrew that."

Yeah, THAT would do VERY NICELY.

Would probably cost the BBC a fortune, though.

Missy's LEAVING us?

Well, at least she wasn't stupidly FINAL about it.

Expect a double regeneration perhaps?

HELL yeah, it's way past time Who did the whole Reichenback Falls thing with the Doctor and Master...

Considered putting this in Unexpected Places, but as Omni was a magazine of science and science fiction a Doctor Who reference was to be expected.

The May 1986 issue, page 44, In the Science Fiction Quiz No. 12 (about villains) by Ben Bova

Question 5. "He arose from the same culture as the Doctor but used his training and great knowledge either to conquer or destroy the universe, as his whim dictated."

She's starting to want that too...

Well, MOFFAT certainly seems to think that Missy's crying-conversion-therapy-stuff is genuine.

(Either that or he's just LYING to us, of course.)

The Doctor Falls:

LOVE Simm trying out the eye-liner! Frankly I was worried that the smashing of gender stereotypes implicit in the male-to-female regeneration was somewhat undermined by the female Master going round crying, kissing the Doctor's nose, admitting she just wanted her friend back, and slathering on the make-up. So I'm suddenly feeling a LOT better.

Is it just me or does Missy calling the Master 'dearest' give you a warm fuzzy feeling? Why couldn't any of the Doctors be this affectionate towards their other selves? (Alright, so she knifes him to death shortly afterwards but that's entirely beside the point.)

'I loved being you. Every second of it. Oh, the way you burn like a sun. Like a whole screaming world on fire. I remember that feeling, and I always will. And I will always miss it.' - and •••• but Tennant's 'I loved being you...you were my Doctor' doesn't BEGIN to compare, does it.

No, but then Tennant's 'You were my Doctor' was a terrible line even without the comparison.

Oh. Yeah, fair point.

DWM: 'Ironically, the plan had already been to write out the [Delgado] Master in his next adventure. "We hadn't got further than thinking it would be quite nice to kill him off in an enormous great blaze," said Letts, "and leave it ambiguous as to whether he had allowed it to happen to save the Doctor - the suggestion being that his affection for the Doctor had overcome his evil"' - ah, bless, there is (sort of) precedent for Gomez's weird affection for Our Hero, plus - even more importantly - none of this 'brothers' or 'id/ego' nonsense...

Simm on comparisons with his predecessors: '"I saw the Eric Roberts one. Didn't really fill me with fear." He guffaws' - *reproachful look*

just remember, South Park had Eric Roberts eaten by the townspeople and there was no outrage...

just remember, South Park had Eric Roberts eaten by the townspeople and there was no outrage...

Ah, BLESS!

what i couldn't stand was the sexism from fandom about a female Master

Oh, Sunshine, you ain't seen nothing yet...

It suddenly occurred to me - is it a class thing? That blatant discrimination in the way the Time Lords treat the Doctor compared to the way they treat the Master?

The Doc elopes with his TARDIS and saves a few civilisations, and gets chased across time and space, executed AND exiled.

The Master elopes with his TARDIS and destroys a few civilisations and the Time Lords track him down and, um, warn the Doctor that he's hanging round the place, byeeeeee!

The Doctor saves Gallifrey in the Time War and gets put in front of a firing squad for his pains.

The Master destroys the Time Lords' plans to survive the Time War by violently attacking Rassilon himself and they cure him of his misfortunate ailments and set him free.

The Doctor and the Master are, of course, both Lords of Time. But one of 'em had a father with vast estates and the other was a snivelling orphan living in a barn.

It's possible the Master didn't want to become female. We know the Time Lords sometimes use forced regeneration as a punishment, as with the Second Doctor, and Rassilon doesn''t seem like a feminist,

I can easily imagine Rassilon forcing the Master to regenerate into a woman as part of his punishment. He might also have been able to influence the Master's post-regeneration personality.

Nice try, but how wrong you were. Rassilon graciously heals the Master of his insanity, tendency to turn into a voracious skeleton, tinnitus, etc, gives him a TARDIS and leaves him free to roam the universe.

And presumably the Master regenerates into a woman because he knows he HAS to.

I wonder if Missy was them testing the water for a female Doctor?

Ah yes, I'm quite sure we have Michelle Gomez's glorious success to thank for JODIE!.

Not that this will make me forgive and forget that it was Ainley's stupid attempt to hold the universe to ransom or Simm's stupid attempt to, um, do whatever-the-hell-he-was-trying-to-do (cure himself? Reproduce himself? Conquer the galaxy? Bring back Gallifrey?) that cost us our Tom AND our Tennant.

Now that we're getting a female Doctor, it's easy to look back and reinterpret Missy and the regeneration in Hell Bent as water testers. They may have been. But unless that was the sole, deliberate motivation behind those choices, it robs them of what they actually were.

Casting Michelle Gomez was brilliant. It created a sense of mystery throughout Series 8, serving as its Bad Wolf. Reinterpreting that to accommodate a season 11 viewpoint does it a disservice.

Who would love to see the Michelle Master and the Jodie Doctor meet?

Casting Michelle Gomez was brilliant. It created a sense of mystery throughout Series 8, serving as its Bad Wolf.

Well, YOU obviously didn't get the whole thing ruined by taking a quick look at Gallifrey Base where everyone was perfectly happy to helpfully point out that Missy = Mistress = the Master about two seconds after Deep Breath aired.

Reinterpreting that to accommodate a season 11 viewpoint does it a disservice.

OK, I'll try to bear that in mind. It's not as if Capaldi deliberately regenerated into a female due to Missy proving her infinite superiority over her male models - the Doctor *sob* never knew that all those decades of sacrifice WORKED and she was going to stand at his side...

Who would love to see the Michelle Master and the Jodie Doctor meet?

GOD yeah, of course the Doctor's got to meet the Master and it would be a real backwards step for said Master to be a 'he', and no other woman could possibly be THE Mistress the way Gomez is.

Alright, so she's SAID she's Capaldi's Master and leaving with him, but she's also said that she was lying and of course she'd come back.

Yes, they could go shopping and get their hair and nails done. ;-)

Doctors do not get their hair and nails done.

Except for Tennant and his hair-gel products.

Masters, it has to be admitted, have been known to do some SERIOUSLY weird things with their fingernails (Time-Flight), experiment with eyeliner (The Doctor Falls) and dye their hair blonde while being dead (End of Time).

So who knows...

KAM is saying Jodie!'s Doctor walks into a salon and asks for the works?

Of course the Master appeared before Terror of the Autons. What about "the Master, Padmasambhava"?

It was the master-with-a-small-m Pad...thingamijig.

Just the universe's little joke, like when they were talking about 'the master' in Black Orchid and meant some sort of cricketer.

Michelle Master and Jodie Doctor have a woman's night out, taking out a Dalek army.

DWM: Razor is 'funny and charming' according to Moffat. Those wouldn't be the first words that sprang to MY mind. He WAS quite sweet with Bill but he was also a total weirdo.

John Simm is the longest-running Master? That's just...ridiculous.

Also quite annoying that he hasn't aged at all in ten years, the one returning character in a multi-self story who was perfectly entitled to age as much as he liked...

Simm: 'I just thought, "This is a great excuse to sit down and binge-watch Peter Capaldi as the Doctor' - you need an EXCUSE?! Truly, the man is EVIL.

'The Eleventh Doctor never did meet the Master' - Um, is it too late for me to throw a tantrum at this UNFORGIVABLE BETRAYAL when, um, I didn't really notice at the time...?

Gomez: 'If you strip away that corset' - the Master had a CORSET! - 'and take away that umbrella, there is a lot of Missy in me' - I KNEW IT!

John Simms being the longest running Master would make Troughton the longest running Master, from Power of the Daleks to The Two Doctors. Unless you want to count the Curator.

I mean, stopping, being replaced and coming back for a multi-self story hardly counts.

"Troughton the longest running Master".

uh, what?

Doctor rather.

Destiny of the Doctors (1997)

This CD-ROM game just shows you how tragic it was that Ainley was squashed by the JNT machine. With the grey hair, he even looks like Delgado. And for once, it's a real, not false beard.

The First Master, Roger Delgado, would have been 100 years old today.

The way people just keep on going these days, he probably WOULD have been, if it hadn't been for that ••••••• Turkish taxi driver...and if Ysanne Churchman's still playing Alpha Centuri aged ninety-two, there's really no reason World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls shouldn't have been The Three Masters...

DANIEL PHILLIPS in Audios: I, Davros thread:

I still think Roger Delgado is the smartest master. Both new series masters are very unstable.

Hmm. Delgado certainly SEEMS a lot more stable, but remember that definition of insanity that entails doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome? Dear old Delgado NEVER seemed to realise, despite the over-abundance of evidence, that allying with some genocidal alien race or other in an attempt to conquer/destroy Earth was never gonna WORK.* Whereas Simm of all people DID successfully conquer the Earth for an entire year, whilst Missy DID realise that this whole 'being evil' thing just wasn't working out and engaged with the rehabilitation process for a full seventy years.

*Of course, if his ultimate aim was just to attract the Doctor's attention, one has to admit, it worked out rather well.

Tbf to Delgado he was just starting out on his evil genius thing, it takes a while to get into the swing of things. And Simm needed help from genocidal aliens too who may well have betrayed him at some point.

Tbf to Delgado he was just starting out on his evil genius thing

Nonsense, he'd probably been roaming the universe sensibly honing his evil genius thing for CENTURIES before he stupidly decided to go deal with his ex...

And Simm needed help from genocidal aliens too who may well have betrayed him at some point.

I never worked out HOW Simm managed to stop those giggling genocidal lunatics from turning on him but credit where it's due, he obviously learnt from all those mistakes with the Autons and Axons and Daemons and Sea Devils and Minds of Evil and Daleks and Time Monsters...eventually...

As much as he had honed his evil geniusness he was no match for the Doc. And he never struck me as having had that much practice. Let’s help aliens invade the world again, oh no they’ve turned on me again because I have no real power over them.

Maybe he had something that would turn off the Paradox Machine on him at all times when he dealt with the Toclaphane. Being able to banish you and your entire race to the end of the universe at the touch of a button is an effective deterrent

And he never struck me as having had that much practice. Let’s help aliens invade the world again, oh no they’ve turned on me again because I have no real power over them.

That doesn't mean the Master DIDN'T have loads of practice in that sort of thing, it just means s/he meets the definition of insanity that involves doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome...

Maybe he had something that would turn off the Paradox Machine on him at all times when he dealt with the Toclaphane. Being able to banish you and your entire race to the end of the universe at the touch of a button is an effective deterrent

Can't we just believe that JUST FOR ONCE the Master found an alien race that GENUINELY LIKED HIM?

Him and the Doc had a very odd relationship at the time maybe he was hoping to loose each time. Just think of poor Roger Delgado hadn’t been killed the Master would have sacrificed himself to save the Doc and that would have been that fir the character. Or perhaps we’d see an earlier version ala River Song.

Said aliens were technically human so maybe that’s where he went right.

Him and the Doc had a very odd relationship at the time maybe he was hoping to loose each time.

Subconsciously, perhaps, but it took numerous regenerations plus a sex-change for the Master to ADMIT that s/he just wants her friend back.

Just think of poor Roger Delgado hadn’t been killed the Master would have sacrificed himself to save the Doc and that would have been that fir the character.

I DO think about that, a lot, Delgado's death was one of Who's great tragedies but at least we were spared that id/ego nonsense...

Said aliens were technically human so maybe that’s where he went right.

The Master doesn't have a great track record in human alliances either, I mean, Queen Galleia and Lucy Saxon both turned pretty nasty...

Queen Galleia was a person? Wasn't she just a giant pair of boobanies?

Yeah just as well we have the thread here we had gone massively off topic.

Maybe the more stable Delgado was more willing to admit their frenemy relationship. I assume coming close to running out of bodies caused more physiological damage than we realised.

Still they were only two humans who betrayed him compared to the millions of Toclafane. Also hadn’t he messed with Lucy Saxons mind.

I think I’ve said it before but I’m going to say it again. I think John Simm Master shooting his future female self was a metaphor for what the fans might do to the show over the gender change. And would also have been more obvious if the regeneration had been in that series,

Yeah just as well we have the thread here we had gone massively off topic.

Yeah, but we'd got OVER A HUNDRED!!!! posts on the I, Davros thread and it was a tragedy to break it up.

Maybe the more stable Delgado was more willing to admit their frenemy relationship.

Oh, stuff n'nonsense.

Well, apart from that time Delgado totally swallowed the ludicrous idea in Claws of Axos that the Doctor would betray n'abandon Earth and his UNIT chums to travel with HIM...

I assume coming close to running out of bodies caused more physiological damage than we realised.

Well, THE DOCTOR was fine about it.

So fine Matt kept FORGETTING he was in his final body and starting to regenerate (Impossible Astronaut, Angels Take Manhattan etc...)

Still they were only two humans who betrayed him compared to the millions of Toclafane.

Well, it wasn't JUST them, numerous humans (even the hypnotised ones) had a habit of becoming undependable (Farrel), blackmailing him into returning to prison (Mailer), attempting to correct his calculations (Percival), objecting to human sacrifice (some loser or other in Daemons) or or, worse, going all feminist on him (Ruth).

Also hadn’t he messed with Lucy Saxons mind.

Actually I don't think he HAD.

We really need more info about what the •••• that woman was THINKING.

Most were about IDavros luckily.

Delgado also used to side with the Doc to chase off the aliens that had betrayed Delgado and he’d stupidly released on Earth. He did it in his very first appearance.

Yeah Matt did that a lot almost as if he wasn’t on his final regeneration when he got the gig ;-)

As for the in show excuse he’s keeping the War Doc secret so he has to put on a show and pretend he has one more regeneration left. He didn’t actually start to reverse in Impossible Astronout it was just the ship putting on a show. And maybe Time Lords still have some regeneration energy in them even in their final body just not enough for a new body.

The Doc is far more stable than the master, and even then Capaldi was very unstable, almost to Colin Baker levels.

Ok there were a lot of humans but still they seem to make more reliable minions, his guards in the Last of the Time Lords were loyal too.

He took Lucy Saxon to the end of the universe and that ‘broke’ her, and she acted very strangely when she killed him. Almost as if she was mind controlled.

Delgado would've been well into his sixties by the time of the JNT Doctors and 71 at the time of Survival. Sometimes, you gotta let a guy call time on a role. Delgado wanted to be more than the Master... and said as much.

Capaldi was very unstable, almost to Colin Baker levels.

Was NOT!

I mean, you don't even have to compare what they did and said, just LOOK AT THEM, for heaven's sake...

...OK, on second thoughts, I have to admit that deliberately torturing yourself for four-and-a-half billion years could possibly, on balance, be considered a bit...unbalanced.

But Capaldi couldn't have been psychologically-damaged by being at the end of his lives, he was the first in a glorious new regeneration cycle!

his guards in the Last of the Time Lords were loyal too

Yeah, either they were REALLY well hypnotised or the Cult of Saxon had infiltrated UNIT...or something...come to that, the UNIT guys in Death in Heaven were happy to stand around while the Master freed herself, don't ask me what's going on with stupid HUMANS...

He took Lucy Saxon to the end of the universe and that ‘broke’ her, and she acted very strangely when she killed him. Almost as if she was mind controlled.

But there was no one around to mind-control her into shooting the Master, was there? I just think that the knowledge of infinity and the end of the universe and the tiny pointlessness of humanity and suchlike broke her the way it broke Donna's Lance or Suzie 'Weevils and b******* and s***' Costello.

Sometimes, you gotta let a guy call time on a role.

The HELL you do!

Our beloved Curator is proof enough of THAT.

He may have been the first of a new cycle but that didn’t seem to matter, amongst other things he was refusing to regerate, he was going to die permanently. And his behaviour at the start especially was very erratic. Also he was pretty much impossible to get on with (not a sign of mental instability I know but it all adds up) he was very much Colin Baker mk 2 but not to ridiculous levels. And being written that way has tanked the ratings, again.

UNIT are a joke tbf, and they’re also led by a complete idiot. Even General Melchett from Blackadder is the Duke of Wellington by comparison ;-)

Maybe the Master’s guards simply felt it was better than the mines or factories. They certainly didn’t stay loyal when it was obvious he’d lost.

I wondered if the Master mind controlled her into shooting him as a way out, he had his resurrection planned after all. I wonder if they dropped that plan to avoid making the arc angel network more complicated, whatever happened to that anyway? Did they take it down?

Delgado may always have been willing to stop but my point is if he hadn’t died before the Third Doc’s final story the Master would have been killed off for real in the 70s. Possibly he’d have been brought back at some point most likely by the new series or he may simply have gone the way of the Ice Warriors, the Meddling Monk and multi part stories. One time a staple and popular part of the show. Now long forgotten.

amongst other things he was refusing to regerate, he was going to die permanently

Yeah, OK, that was DEEPLY WEIRD.

I get that life feels like a treadmill sometimes but that's no excuse for trying to MURDER OUR JODIE!

And his behaviour at the start especially was very erratic.

I thought it was pretty sane by post-regenerative standards.

Of course, we don't quite know whether or not he beat up that tramp to steal his coat.

And I guess we never will, not unless JODIE!'s second words are 'Hey, maybe I should find another tramp so I can beat him up and steal his coat again'...

Also he was pretty much impossible to get on with

Au contraire, he was a Living Saint who was the only person in the universe who could have put up with Clara bloody Oswald for so long...(I mean, even the man who LOVED her stepped in front of that speeding car for heaven's sake...)

he was very much Colin Baker mk 2 but not to ridiculous levels. And being written that way has tanked the ratings, again.

I disagree.

I mean, I dunno WHY our ratings are well on the way to zip, zilch, nada, OH GODS WE'RE SCREWED but I'm pretty sure it's not because CapaldiDoc is The Wrong Baker Mark II.

UNIT are a joke tbf, and they’re also led by a complete idiot

To be fair to Kate, she has a lot fewer nervous breakdowns than her dad and she hasn't tried to nuke London for YEARS.

Maybe the Master’s guards simply felt it was better than the mines or factories. They certainly didn’t stay loyal when it was obvious he’d lost.

Didn't they riddle our beloved Captain Jack with bullets AFTER it was obvious the Master had lost?

I wondered if the Master mind controlled her into shooting him as a way out, he had his resurrection planned after all.

Of course the Master always has a back-up plan to cheat death (at least this one, ridiculous as using-his-widow's-lipstick was, didn't involve turning into a snake) but even THAT nutcase would have realised that it should be used as a last resort, that dying and getting cremated isn't a heap of fun and that resurrections have the potential to go very, very wrong.

I wonder if they dropped that plan to avoid making the arc angel network more complicated, whatever happened to that anyway? Did they take it down?

Must have done.

So...Capaldi should have sensed Gomez...?

he may simply have gone the way of the Ice Warriors, the Meddling Monk and multi part stories. One time a staple and popular part of the show. Now long forgotten.

Nonsense! We've had two incredibly-dull New Who Ice Warrior stories, the Meddling Monk is always popping back in the audios and we've been blessed with several multi-part stories, assuming you count 'two' as 'multi'.

Well Jodie is probably going to end up in a Broadchurch knock off for the next year so you never know.

He may have put up with Clara but the guest characters all struggled with him too, and don’t forget his running away in Kill the Moon total immaturity with Robin Hood etc.

The ratings have tanked really due to bad writing, I don’t blame Capaldi but rather like how the coat was the final straw with Colin Baker, Capaldi’s behaviour was too much on top of the stupid storylines, the nihilism, darkness and the bad writing.

I remember the guards shooting Jack at the start of the episode not when the master was being defeated, I can’t see it being mentioned on the Wiki or reference guide either, when the Doc started getting his power the soldiers all followed Jack’s orders instantly without a word of complaint.

Well as we’ve established the John Simm Master is very unstable. Delgado would have just broken out of whatever prison the Doc had planned, so he’s just the type to try this bizarre idea.

Don’t ask me the whole Time Lords sense each other thing seems to be long gone. Maybe Ten overestimated his powers or maybe only that regeneration could do it, same as only 3 could do karate and only 7 had the Jedi mind trick. My take is that bringing Gallifrey back into the universe created enough ‘background noise’ to hide any individual Time Lords from each other’s senses.

The Ice Warriors only just came back they got more classic eps that the Sontarans but its the Sontarans that are seen as the third major enemy race not the Ice Warriors. And everyone comes back on audio that can’t count. If Delgado was still alive Big Finish would have asked him to do a story set in the third docs run. I was thinking more that two part stories, is just one three owrterntoo much to ask?

Danny - Even General Melchett from Blackadder is the Duke of Wellington by comparison ;-)

*snicker* ;-)


Emily - Of course, we don't quite know whether or not he beat up that tramp to steal his coat.

And I guess we never will, not unless JODIE!'s second words are 'Hey, maybe I should find another tramp so I can beat him up and steal his coat again'...

That would explain her new costume... ;-)


Danny - only 3 could do karate

The first Doctor did some kind of martial arts in The Romans. (okay, I think it was a judo move.) For all we know it could have been the first appearance of Venusion karate.

the guest characters all struggled with him too

I think guest characters struggle with MOST Doctors, bless their unprepared little hearts...

and don’t forget his running away in Kill the Moon

Running away is a PERFECTLY SENSIBLE REACTION to Kill the Moon.

total immaturity with Robin Hood etc

But all that bantering from the long-haired ninny was SERIOUSLY ANNOYING.

Capaldi’s behaviour was too much on top of the stupid storylines, the nihilism, darkness and the bad writing.

Who d'you think you are, the cut-out-all-the-jokes Glass Woman?

I remember the guards shooting Jack at the start of the episode not when the master was being defeated, I can’t see it being mentioned on the Wiki or reference guide either, when the Doc started getting his power the soldiers all followed Jack’s orders instantly without a word of complaint.

*Checks transcript* Yup, you're right, my memory's rubbish and WHAT THE HELL do those soldiers think they're playing at?

Don’t ask me the whole Time Lords sense each other thing seems to be long gone. Maybe Ten overestimated his powers or maybe only that regeneration could do it, same as only 3 could do karate and only 7 had the Jedi mind trick.

But Nine AND Ten based the very foundation of their lives - Waagghh waagghh I'm the Last of the Time Lords - on the belief that they'd sense any others about the place. And judging by the very existence of the Archangel Network the Master believed the Doc would be able to sense him too. (Sure, it doubled up as a hypnotise-everyone-into-voting-for-him device, but come ON! If Donald Trump could get himself elected with merely a bit of Russian-rigging assistance, our Master could have managed without that sort of...overkill.)

My take is that bringing Gallifrey back into the universe created enough ‘background noise’ to hide any individual Time Lords from each other’s senses.

It was only back for two minutes in End of Time, and when it finally arrived properly post-Time of the Doctor, it was lurking around at the very end of the universe, the pathetic wimp of a planet.

The Ice Warriors only just came back they got more classic eps that the Sontarans but its the Sontarans that are seen as the third major enemy race not the Ice Warriors.

Yeah, that's cos the Sontarans actually have a bit of character and the Ice Warriors...don't.

They can grow dreadlocks, stick sequins on their helmets or snuggle up together in one big Peladonian bed but they're STILL boring as hell.

I was thinking more that two part stories, is just one three owrterntoo much to ask?

One three WHAT?

Actually Utopia/Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords and Extremis/The Pyramid at the End of the World/The Lie of the Land are almost definitely three-parters and you could make a case for Turn Left/Stolen Earth/Journey's End too...

not unless JODIE!'s second words are 'Hey, maybe I should find another tramp so I can beat him up and steal his coat again'...

That would explain her new costume... ;-)

Well it would if you substituted 'clown' for 'tramp'...

The first Doctor did some kind of martial arts in The Romans. (okay, I think it was a judo move.) For all we know it could have been the first appearance of Venusion karate.

I doubt he'd've called it 'the gentle art of fisticuffs' if it had really been Venusian akido.

The implication is that the Doctor, even in his second incarnation, already knows the Master by that name, and wants to keep a wide berth:

From the transcripts:

The Mind Robber

DOCTOR: No, no. Well, I've got to find them. Perhaps you could help me, if you know your way around.
GULLIVER: It is not permitted.
DOCTOR: Who says so?
GULLIVER: The Master!
DOCTOR: The Master?
GULLIVER: He has articles of impeachment against you for treason and other capital crimes.
DOCTOR: Treason again. Really.


ZOE: But who's in charge hear? Who's setting all these tests for us?
GULLIVER: The Master.
DOCTOR: Oh, the Master again, eh? I suppose this army of robots works for the Master as well.
GULLIVER: Army? As to their military affairs I knew not what they meant.
DOCTOR: Oh, surely you've seen them.


EVIL OF THE DALEKS


MOLLIE: Hello sir. Are you feeling better? Oh, you did have a party last night, didn't you sir? The master sent this in for you.
DOCTOR: The master? Mister Waterfield?
MOLLIE: Oh, no, sir, Mister Maxtible. Mister Waterfield came back from abroad last night, sir, with you and the young gentleman. Don't you remember?
DOCTOR: Not very well, no. Ooh!


DOCTOR: That'll do. Yes, Mollie, thank you very much. It's all right.
MOLLIE: You won't tell the master, will you?
DOCTOR: I wouldn't dream of telling him.
MOLLIE: Thank you, sir. Sorry.



THE ABOMINABLE SNOWMAN

DOCTOR: But you don't understand. It's here, in the monastery.
TRAVERS: What? That's impossible.
THOMNI: But the monastery is empty. We are all here.
DOCTOR: Are we? Are we all here?
THOMNI: The Master!
SAPAN: Songsten is with him.
KHRISONG: Then he is in great danger. Stay where you are, all of you.
TRAVERS: Songsten. I remember. Songsten, the Yeti, on the mountain. Yes, yes, it's all coming back to me.
JAMIE: Well, tell us.
TRAVERS: There was this cave.


DOCTOR: He is quite right. He is quite right. You listen to him.
RALPACHAN: Well?
SONGSTEN: Kill them. Kill them. Kill them.
THOMNI: Look, is this our Abbot who loves peace? Surely you can see he was made to kill Khrisong. He is a helpless puppet.
TRAVERS: But I saw him on the mountain. He was leading the Yeti.
DOCTOR: Yes, but by command, unknowingly. Thomni is right. Songsten is merely a puppet.
SAPAN: Who has done this to him?
RALPACHAN: Is it you?
THOMNI: No. I tell you I saw Songsten change. He was put in a trance by the Master.
SAPAN: Have a care what you say.
DOCTOR: Now listen to me, all of you. Your Abbot is not responsible. But neither is Padmasambhava. He too is controlled. Now do as you'd planned. Leave the monastery. There is great evil here.
TRAVERS: No, Doctor, you're wrong. The evil is on the mountains. It's that hideous thing in the cave.
SAPAN: Wherever it may be, what can we do to overcome such a force? My brothers, let us obey the Doctor.
THOMNI: What of you, Doctor?
DOCTOR: I will stay here, Thomni.

In none of those instances did the Doc look as startled/scared as Five in Black Orchid (or indeed Eight in Interference when K9 called HIM 'Master').

But still, you're right, the First (well, Bradley) Doctor audio The Destination Wars pretty much had him tell the Doctor that he called himself the Master these days.

The First Doctor did meet the Master in The Five Doctors, which, given he didn't recognize him, would indicate he hadn't met him before as a villain.

It just indicates he didn't recognise this guy as the Master, which is fair enough given that a) he's in a Trakkenite body and b) this whole Time-Lords-recognising-each-other stuff doesn't usually work anyway.

Michelle Gomez has been cast in the upcoming Netflix series, the Chilling Adventures of Sabrina. She's going to play an evil school teacher.

Poor students of her classes, would you want the Master as your teacher!?

Poor Michelle Gomez, talk about being typecast...has she ever played anyone NICE?

It just indicates he didn't recognise this guy as the Master, which is fair enough given that a) he's in a Trakkenite body and b) this whole Time-Lords-recognising-each-other stuff doesn't usually work anyway.

The Third Doctor had very little problem recognising him.

Troughton's reaction was minimal and ambiguous.

Poor Michelle Gomez, talk about being typecast...has she ever played anyone NICE?

I don't know, Emily. I'd never heard of Michelle Gomez before she started playing the part of Missy.

The term 'master' is an old, out of date term for the guy that owns the house or the employer. That's who Mollie was talking about. The Master can't lay claim to EVERY mention of the word in the series. Sometimes it's just a word or title, used to hide the identity of the bad guy on the show until the writer was ready to reveal him.

All of these examples are null and void, since the Master never hid in the shadows for the entire time he plotted against the Doctor. He'd have shown up and declared, "Aha! See my brilliant plan to destroy you, Doctor?!"

This Doc was more difficult than most others even Eccy and he was rude for the sake of it a fair few times.

Robin Hood may have been a but full on but the Doc was completely immature and the show should have run from Kill the Moon not the characters.

“Cut out all the jokes glass woman” I hope you’re not comparing me to Mary Whitehouse, still the ratings crash shows I have a point as to the tone being off.

I assume the Masters guards were not especially loyal and were more than happy to betray him once he was rendered powerless. Consider the Masters behaviour in the Year that Never Was he doesn’t strike me as the kind of boss to make you go the extra mile.

Maybe Nine and Ten both had that power then, and when the Doc says he’d be able to sense other Time Lords he must mean wherever they are in time and space (unless they’re timelocked) otherwise he’d be being rather thick to just assume that any time lord survivors would go to 21st century Earth so he could sense them.

The master became prime minister in only a year with a brand new party. You need more than some Russian trolls to pull that off.

In fact the arc angel is a slight rip off of a villain from the 90s live action Superman show. Where the villain uses future tech plugged into the phones to get everyone to just like him for no real reason and make him president.

I means just one three part story. Ok you’re right Utopia at al were a real three parter but the others were more arcs or a two parter with a loosely connected story. Still season 3 was years ago, time for another one.

Michell Gomez normally plays lunatics whoever I’ve seen her. She was one in Green Wing and in The Brink as well

The Third Doctor had very little problem recognising him.

In Season Eight when the Master positively WANTED to be recognised, going by his aliases. He had a bit of trouble with Ainley, though, in The Five Doctors.

the Master never hid in the shadows for the entire time he plotted against the Doctor.

He hid in the Archangel shadows for eighteen months before popping out to bwahaha at Tennant.

This Doc was more difficult than most others even Eccy and he was rude for the sake of it a fair few times.

Yeah *nostalgic sigh* and then Clara BULLIED him into being all POLITE to people with those cue cards...

Robin Hood may have been a but full on but the Doc was completely immature

No point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes, as Tom Baker once said.

“Cut out all the jokes glass woman” I hope you’re not comparing me to Mary Whitehouse

Certainly not, just the LITERAL glass woman in Twice Upon a Time who showed Hartnell (Bradley. Whatever.) his war-torn future but forgot to mention those all-important jokes...

I assume the Masters guards were not especially loyal and were more than happy to betray him once he was rendered powerless. Consider the Masters behaviour in the Year that Never Was he doesn’t strike me as the kind of boss to make you go the extra mile.

QUITE. So why did none of the guards join in the Doctor/Jack/Joneses attempts to overthrow the Master? In fact, forget plots, why did none of 'em turn round and just riddle him full of bullets? You don't actually need a gun-with-four-chemicals to kill a Time Lord permanently after all, and surely at SOME POINT - especially if you're a solider, especially if you're a UNIT soldier - your own life becomes considerably less important to you than stopping this man burning another country off the map...?

Maybe Nine and Ten both had that power then

Though it would have been pretty weird if Eccy had just suddenly ASSUMED he'd got that power, having never had it before.

and when the Doc says he’d be able to sense other Time Lords he must mean wherever they are in time and space (unless they’re timelocked) otherwise he’d be being rather thick to just assume that any time lord survivors would go to 21st century Earth so he could sense them.

Though, let's be honest, OF COURSE the survivors would have gone straight to 21st century Earth. The Doctor did, the Master did, Missy did, Rassilon brought the entire bloody PLANET along on a day-trip...

The master became prime minister in only a year with a brand new party. You need more than some Russian trolls to pull that off.

How long did Macron take?

the SDP-Liberal Alliance almost managed it before the Falklands came along, too.

The master became prime minister in only a year with a brand new party. You need more than some Russian trolls to pull that off.

How long did Macron take?

Well, he founded his party in April 2016, declared he would run in November 2016, and won in June 2017. Of course, he was not an unknown like Saxon, he had held other offices prior to that.

You should be glad Clara bullied him into politeness. If he hadn’t got his act together in the final season who knows what state the show could be in.

Childish sometimes not hours on end. And Tom was always serious when the chips were down.

Yeah Glass Woman was an idiot and I liked how Hartnell pretty much ignored her, still that was an accurate way to sum up Capaldi’s first two seasons. Bleak and depressing

Yeah the soldiers really should have dealt with him before. Maybe arc angel helped prevent it and it was only when the Doc took it over they could shake it off, or maybe the Master had a force field that the Doc broke, or maybe the Master told them that if he died the Toclafane would destroy the earth

Macron became president via its own election and he needed an allied party to win big in the 2017 election. Plus beating Maine La Pen helped massively.

Also politics was much more stable in 2009 when I believe the Saxon election took place. He says in cabinet that he had to rely on massive numbers of MPs jumping ship to secure a victory,

You should be glad Clara bullied him into politeness. If he hadn’t got his act together in the final season who knows what state the show could be in.

Of course, I adore the cue cards but then I also adored 'Top layer if you want to say a few words.'

Are you sure the Control Freak should get all the credit? I got the impression Himself only REALLY mellowed after he wiped Clara out of his mind, so it's either her absence, his twenty-four-year restaurant orgy with River, or seventy-plus years standing in front of a box with Nardole making his tea/coffee that made Capaldi so unnaturally...kind.

And Tom was always serious when the chips were down.

Actually according to Sarah the worse the situation, the worse his jokes get.

still that was an accurate way to sum up Capaldi’s first two seasons. Bleak and depressing

SO not true!

Plus the most bleak and depressing episode of 'em all was the all-time classic...

Yeah the soldiers really should have dealt with him before. Maybe arc angel helped prevent it and it was only when the Doc took it over they could shake it off, or maybe the Master had a force field that the Doc broke, or maybe the Master told them that if he died the Toclafane would destroy the earth

Nice attempt at explaining their treachery-to-humanity but shouldn't UNIT personnel be trained against this sort of brainwashing?

And what's their excuse for standing around doing sod-all when Missy freed herself, shot them AND stomped on poor Osgood and her specs?

Personally I suspect it's more likely that every man in UINT just had a massive crush on the Master/Missy. S/he was pretty much what their organisation was FOR, after all.

Also politics was much more stable in 2009 when I believe the Saxon election took place

STABLE?! British politics c.2006-2010 went something like:

PM1: Murdered by Slitheen and stuffed in cupboard
PM2: Slitheen
PM3: Temporary placeholder-till-election type
PM4: Harriet Jones Former MP For Flydale North Architect of Our Ten-Year Golden Age - •••• THAT DOCTOR!
PM5: Temporary placeholder-till-election type
PM6: THE MASTER!!!
PM7: Guy who sold our kids as drugs for aliens
PM8: Woman who sold our kids as drugs for aliens but made •••• sure none of 'em were HER relatives
PM9: Guy who got exterminated by Daleks in unfilmed Stolen Earth scene

Stable it wasn't.

Yep you’re right Clara gets no credit, 24 years of a restaurant and making tea sorted him out, still he needed sorting it was hurting the brand badly.

Tom many have joked but he never messed everything up with extreme pettiness, though I shouldn't be too harsh, robot of sherwood was a real necessity in Capldi’s first season. A much needed comedy.

Name a non bleak episode? Season 1 was dark and nihilistic in its entirety with the exception of Robin Hood and the plain dull listen.

Like I said UNIT are a joke. Especially under Kate Stewart. They need to fix her character or write her out ASAP.

Oh yes I forgot it was the Doc’s fault the Master came to power by toppling Jones and making politics so unstable (from a deleted scene that really needed to be kept in) so it’s all his fault, are we sure he doesn’t really exist and messed things up in the real world?

Name a non bleak episode? Season 1 was dark and nihilistic in its entirety with the exception of Robin Hood and the plain dull listen.

Time Heist wasn't nihilistic! (At least, I don't think so...frankly it's too boring to remember...didn't all those dead people turn out to be *yawn* alive? OK, so an entire species got wiped out but a) just LOOK at 'em! Who the hell CARES? and b) the two survivors get to have sex so apparently it's a happy ending.

And Into the Dalek's another one too boring to be truly nihilistic (and too incompetent to convey the these-are-the-last-remnants-of-humanity-in-this-galaxy! vibe it was allegedly going for) - and OK, so we didn't learn till years afterwards but Rusty Lives! Another (sort of) happy ending!

And Deep Breath is life-affirmingly lovely if you don't object to the Doc hurling the occasional half-robot to its death and believe me, I DON'T.

And the Caretaker is very nearly enormous fun!

And I think That Abomination With The Trees was supposed to be joyously uplifting, what with the lovely trees saving us all and the return of Thingamijig's Sister, though of course it's hard to tell what the •••• anyone was thinking, there...

And Flatline and Mummy are two glorious little gems in which, OK, quite a few innocent people happen to die but that's ALL of Who for you, really.

Like I said UNIT are a joke. Especially under Kate Stewart. They need to fix her character or write her out ASAP.

They HAVE fixed her character! She hasn't tried to nuke London for YEARS!

Oh yes I forgot it was the Doc’s fault the Master came to power by toppling Jones and making politics so unstable (from a deleted scene that really needed to be kept in) so it’s all his fault

Look at it this way: if Harriet hadn't been overthrown she might not have spent years messing around inventing subwave networks (MR COPPER invented it? Don't make me laugh!) and THAT saved EVERY UNIVERSE EVER.

are we sure he doesn’t really exist and messed things up in the real world?

There are a LOT of things I'll blame the Doctor for (not asking for the release of those political prisoners on the moon. Colin Baker. Massacring the Macra. Suggesting the Sacred Scarf gets arrested for murder. The Sixteen Long And Barren Years Of Despair) but I draw the lie at blaming him for Donald Trump.

Humanity did THAT all by itself.

A lot of the ones you list as not nihilistic but boring had Clara and Danny dragging it down. In all of those stories the Doc just exuded an it doesn’t matter vibe. We saw that with into the Dalek, it doesn’t matter the soldiers die, the Doc hates as much as a Dalek the Dalek becomes a good Dalek by copying the Doc or something. The dull episodes were just dragged down by the attitudes as much as anything.

Last time I saw Kate Stewart she was letting the master kill her soldiers for laughs when they could have easily incapacitated her.

Yeah as the Doc said we’ve ignored the lessons from history and we’re regressing.

World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls:

Ah bless, just like the Doctor the Master describes his INCREDIBLY obvious lie as a 'clever lie'.

Come to think of it...ten ••••••• YEARS with Razor. Bill's not the Doctor's Companion, she's the MASTER'S.

Odd that the sight of Bill never jogged Missy's mind with any hint of recognition...surely the Master/Missy meeting wouldn't have wiped TEN YEARS-worth of Simm memories?

BILL: Don't change the channel.
RAZOR: A week, raising his eyebrow? Why would I change? - THAT'S why the Master sat on his arse in a hospital for ten years, wasn't it. It had nothing whatsoever to do with his lack of dematerialisation circuit on his ex-subjects wanting to kill him, he was just in HEAVEN watching the Capaldi eyebrows, it was like THAT moment of bliss we all had in Day of the Doctor, stretched out for a decade...

MISSY: Am I supposed to know what you're talking about? Would it help you focus if I extracted some of your vital organs and made a lovely soup?
RAZOR: You would never be so self-destructive.
MISSY: So what?
RAZOR: But then again, neither would I. - Oh you just wait till next episode, Sunshine...

'I'm not begging you. I'd rather die than beg you' - oh yeah? What about the Time Monster?

'You see, Missy, this is where we've always been going. This is our perfect ending. We shoot ourselves in the back' - hmm. Sounds slightly more like a writer congratulating himself on his own cleverness than something you would REALLY say in these circumstances...

Last time I saw Kate Stewart she was letting the master kill her soldiers for laughs when they could have easily incapacitated her.

I don't think they COULD (the Master's evolved a bit since, say, the Daemons) plus don't forget she was magically keeping all those planes in the sky and Kate REALLY wouldn't have wanted her to drop 'em...

The soldiers could easily have physically restrained her, or just march up and punch her. That scene was a bit of an embarrassment. I know the show was trying to be dramatic, but it was just stupid.

And what if all those planes had fallen out of the sky at the first punch?

Acceptable losses.

Ouch.

Kate has MELLOWED since her nuking-London days, you...obviously haven't.

Wouldn't so many planes striking the Earth at once have effects beyond squishing the people they landed on?

They would obviously start a great many fires fed by the spilled jet fuel, and whatever they hit on the ground. However, those planes were obviously held in place by some manipulation of the flow of time. If suddenly released, they would simply have resumed flying normally, as if nothing had happened. The real danger was that they would NOT be realeased, and would remain frozen in time forever, or until the Doctor bothered to come and release them himself.

So the Doc would have freed them next week then ;-)

Glad the site is back up, was afraid it had gone down for good

So the Doc would have freed them next week then

But the Doctor's doomed, DOOMED I tell you! He's decided to lay down his life in order to mop Davros's dying brow! He's written a will and everything!

Yeah I don’t know why they bothered opening the series with that. Especially as it’s a rehash of what happened with Matt Smith

So that he could have a Confession Dial in which he could spend billions of years, of course!

Though I'm still not quite sure how that WORKED, exactly...

Yeah I didn’t see that season, first two and no more, sounds like I didn’t miss much

YES YOU BLOODY DID HEAVEN SENT WAS AN ALL-TIME CLASSIC AND THE OTHERS WEREN'T BAD EITHER WELL APART FROM THAT BLOODY BORING SLEEP NO MORE OBVIOUSLY...

Um, sorry about the shouting, just WATCH THE BLOODY SEASON and then I won't HAVE to shout at you, being a Who Fan isn't all about FUN y'know...

Sorry but the first episode of that season was an absolute train wreck, and the ratings collapse shows I’m not the only one to think that

I thought it was a very fine opening story and even if it HAD been a train-wreck it wouldn't excuse you from watching the rest of the season, it's not the COLIN BAKER era, for heaven's sake.

Come on, most of the first story was padding, then Davros opens his perfectly good eyes and the Doc gunges the Daleks to death with Moffat’s disturbing concept of the week.

And Missy just acts mad and like an offensive female stereotype

Come on, most of the first story was padding

You say 'padding', other people say 'Brilliant moral dilemma'.

(Admittedly I'm slightly on your side on this issue KILL DAVROS ALREADY YOU MORON.)

then Davros opens his perfectly good eyes and the Doc gunges the Daleks to death with Moffat’s disturbing concept of the week.

And Missy just acts mad and like an offensive female stereotype

You're saying it like these are BAD things!

(Normally no one gets worked up more than me about offensive female stereotypes but Michelle Gomez is the one person in the universe who can actually make 'em WORK. She is, after all, a genocidal insane male chauvinist stuck inside a woman's body. And loving every minute of it.)

Moral dilemma? He spend 5 minutes with Davros, the rest was him playing a guitar and Missy being mad.

Michelle Gomez does play mad people brilliantly, still that portrayal of the master has been overdone in the new series

Moral dilemma?

You know, the whole 'If someone pointed out to you a child and told you that child would grow up to be a ruthless dictator, killing millions of people' dilemma...

He spend 5 minutes with Davros, the rest was him playing a guitar and Missy being mad.

Yeah, wasn't it GREAT!

Michelle Gomez does play mad people brilliantly, still that portrayal of the master has been overdone in the new series

I'm not sure you CAN criticise people for regenerating into similar people. It's how regeneration WORKS. Well, some of the time.

That was what was supposed to be up with him? I thought he was just angst again.

Regeneration produces quite different characteristics, grumpy Hartnell, clownish Troughton, kind Pertwee etc, yes they were all good people but still different, they weren’t grumpy, extra grumpy, and super grumpy. Which they would have been if they’d regenerated the way the master has

That was what was supposed to be up with him? I thought he was just angst again.

Yup, that was the whole point of Apprentice/Familiar: to take Tom's Genesis moral dilemma and make it real.

Regeneration produces quite different characteristics, grumpy Hartnell, clownish Troughton, kind Pertwee etc, yes they were all good people but still different, they weren’t grumpy, extra grumpy, and super grumpy. Which they would have been if they’d regenerated the way the master has

OK, you're right, but still, changing sex gives you way more leeway to have a similar character because everything ELSE is so different...

Ah right, well that shows how good a writer Moffat is if I missed that.

But Time Lords are far beyond gender and all it’s steryotyoes. Sorry I just couldn’t resist.

Still I maintain that it’s time for the master (after 3 similar regenerations) to turn back into Moriarty, as the new head writer does police stuff and mysteries it’s probably something he can do very well (unlike everything else)

Clearly you've never had the misfortune to watch Broadchurch.

Writers of Minute Mysteries write better mysteries than Chibnall.

Since Delgado was apparently a very mild man who disliked confrontations and was afraid of water, I suspect the Master would have dismissed him as a bit of a wuss.

Fortunately, Roger Delgado didn't exist in the Whoniverse.

We don't KNOW that, maybe people were too polite/dead to comment on Magister's/Thascalas's/Masters' likeness to some actor, the way NO ONE in the twenty-first century said to Troughton 'Blimey, you look like that mysteriously-disappeared world dictator' or to Tennant 'Weren't you Public Enemy Number One during the Saxon regime?'

(And yes, the fact that UNIT mistook the Spanish Ambassador for the Master but failed to spot the Delgado actor in no way undermines this theory, UNIT are JUST SO THICK SOMETIMES, bless 'em.)

UNIT are JUST SO THICK SOMETIMES

Yeah, leaving all of one guard on Missy.

Duhhhhhhhh....

She acted very strangely when she killed him. Almost as if she was mind controlled.

About Time agrees with you:

'The glazed expression on [Lucy's] face when Jack confiscates the gun hints at some pre-implanted hypnotic suggestion to do this if everything went pear-shaped.'

It would be staggeringly stupid even by the Master's standards but if he's gone to all the trouble of setting up a magic-resurrection-plan-gosh-I-hope-the-Doc-doesn't-spot-the-ring, you can just imagine him itching to try it out...

From Data Extract:
"There's two main ways of using the Master: either as an active agent in the narrative with a masterplan, or as a cog in the machine who reflects the themes of the story around him."

HIM?

Yes. The Master is a him. Missy is a her.

Grrrrr!

Curse that stupid woman for being so •••• SEXIST about the whole business!

You won't catch JODIE! calling herself the Doctoress!

Well, unlike Master, Doctor works fine in both situations.

They're not siblings, its been made very clear the Doctor knew the Master's family (the stuff from the end of time) but that they are not his family. For one thing the Doc seems to be from a low class background while the Master mentioned his Father's "lands." Also I can't see all the flirting (and more) with Missy if they were related.

The plan was to have him say "Brother" in Planet of Fire but that was nixed before filming and its an idea that's never come up since.

In any case making the Master, the Doctor's Catwoman always worked well in any case. They are reflections of each other, both seeing what they could be if things had gone differently and on those rare occasions they work together they are a force to be reckoned with.

unlike Master, Doctor works fine in both situations.

So does Master!

I can't see all the flirting (and more) with Missy if they were related.

Yeah, cos Missy would NEVER flirt with a relative...

MISSY: Oh! Am I a woman now?
MASTER: Well, kind of, yeah.
MISSY: Hold me.
MASTER: Kiss me.
MISSY: Make me.
DOCTOR: Do you two want to be alone?

Ewwwwwww!!

The plan was to have him say "Brother" in Planet of Fire but that was nixed before filming and its an idea that's never come up since.

Actually it came up in Sound of Drums, if only so we could all point and laugh at Martha.

THIS IS A QUOTE

THIS IS A QUOTE

THIS IS A QUOTE

"One of the things I really like about the RTD/Moffat reimagining of the Master is that they have canonised the fact that the character is an absolute fruitcake and has a bizarre sense of humour. It nicely tidies up some of the stupider details of Classic Master stories. So, thanks to John Simm and Michelle Gomez, I now completely believe that the Ainley Master did extensive research into people whose names were acronyms of Master! It’s a very clever Get Out of Jail Free card for any of the Master’s inexplicable Classic Series behaviour. All you’ve got to do is imagine Michelle Gomez recounting what happened as a hilarious anecdote, and suddenly it seems to make some kind of twisted sense."

Isn't that drastically underestimating how different various incarnations of the same person can be? (See: Colin Baker as compared to ANY of his alleged other selves.)

I dunno what the hell Delgado was playing at but he absolutely WASN'T a fruitcake of the Simm/Gomez/Roberts variety.

The sound of the drums had not driven him bonkers quite yet.

Ah god, yes, the drums.

Like Delgado, Ainley, Roberts, whoever-those-pizza-faced-incarnations-were, Gomez and late-Simm I'd kinda forgotten about the dear old drums...

JODIE Doctor and Michelle Master face their greatest threat: Trying to go shopping on Black Friday!

a) The Doctor and the Master do not do anything as undignified as going shopping.

b) One wave of the Tissue Compression Eliminator (and just because we don't see Missy use it doesn't mean for one moment she doesn't have it) would solve this particular problem...

And now we see just why the Doctor has never picked up Emily as a companion-- she'd make a far more capable and wicked evil time Lord( or is that lady?) than anything that they've ever written for the show.

Good going, Emily--that's showing them!!!!

And now we see just why the Doctor has never picked up Emily as a companion-- she'd make a far more capable and wicked evil time Lord( or is that lady?) than anything that they've ever written for the show.

This is the guy who attempted to devote a thousand years of his life to THE MASTER.

This is the guy who decided to DIE so he could pay a deathbed visit to DAVROS.

Don't try to tell me that his/her snubbing of my devotion is due to my genocidal mania or ANYTHING bar the fact I live in the wrong universe.

But I know that one day my Lonely God will come for me! Even if I have to wait till I'm as old as Wilf! (But no longer cos then it'll totally be euthanasia-time...)

yes, they wouldn't go shopping... they'd have a nice, relaxing, bubble bath together ;)

I know bubble baths shouldn't be gendered, but a little girl or woman looks so much better on film having a bubble bath than a guy would.

Delgado's fear of the sea:

Hydrophobia was an old-fashioned term for Rabies, I'd watch a genuinely rabid Master.

QUOTE

QUOTE

QUOTE

So Saxon was first mentioned in the episode Love & Monsters (June, 2006), in which he is leading the polls by [looks at screenshot] 64%, at least according to the Daily Telegraph. He's mentioned by name in The Runaway Bride (December, 2006), when he orders the shooting down of the Racnoss Spider Ship, however no Cabinet position is directly given (however given that he's directly ordering a tank to shoot a spider space ship out the sky, it'd a bit obvious where he'd sit).

The next time he is mentioned is actually in Tochwood, literally a week after The Runaway Bride's broadcast, in the episode Captain Jack Harkness (January, 2007), which is where the first "Vote Saxon" poster can be seen, while the the next is in the Doctor Who season premier Smith and Jones (March, 2007), so obviously unless his seat is in Cardiff or generic London, those surely take place at election time or were recent by-elections with Saxon Coupon Candidates (Love & Monsters though I think does clearly take place during the election, or at least close to it).

The next time he's mentioned is in The Lazarus Experiment (May, 2007), in which he's notably the one funding Prof Lazarus. This is the first non-political reference to him, and establishes him as a moneybags (although you could brush this off as "the Ministry of Defence/Home Office is funding Lazarus", it's clear from how Lazarus talks about Saxon that he's an investor, and I think it's meant to say that he's privately funding this endeavour, especially when Thaw says she'll complain to Saxon directly, rather than the Government). At the end when Francine is warned about the Doctor, so it's clear that Saxon is also holding public office of some kind at this stage, so mentioning him will have some weight.

Then we have him referenced in 42 (May, 2007) when his Agents (who are meant to be Government, I'd say) are questioning Francine and tap her phone, and we learn from Francine that it's election day. And obviously the Master has been using The Archangel Network (which first appears in 42) to make people trust him and vote for him; this would cover how he won any by-election, but also how his Coupon at the GE worked.

So because of how the Doctor Who timeline works, Season Three takes place in 2008. So it kinda makes sense if we consider that within the few months that Saxon is (known to be) Defence Secretary, he's shot down an Alien invasion force, Aliens have transported a London Hospital to the Moon and back, and a prominent scientist turned into a monster and killed a load of people- the last two of which might have happened during the campaign itself. And with it only being a mere two years after the PM and Cabinet were murdered and the sole survivors became Mayor of Cardiff and PM (respectively), it sorta feels like the whole "he used a mobile phone network to make people vote for him" thing is kinda unnecessary, because, ••••, I can see why he'd be polling 64% in Love & Monsters.

Original background outline:

"He is not without a sense of humour, and takes an almost schoolboyish delight in macabre practical jokes. A bomb rigged up with string. a murderous plastic armchair, a miniaturized corpse left in a lunch box ...The Master is full of fun like that."

He puts the fun in funeral. ;-)

ba-dum-bum!

Indeed. You can't spell slaughter without laughter!

Shakespeare & Hathaway: Private Investigators season 2 finale Too Cold for Hell guest stars James Dreyfus.
Dreyfus played chronologically the first Master for Big Finish.

Someone on rec.arts.drwho did a really good "Nyssa possessed by the Master instead of Tremas" back in the day.

Roger Delgado, I imagine, would have wanted to have moved on and we would have seen The Master's original intended exit. I'd imagine there would have been another Moriarty-figure for The Doctor at some point, either a Time Lord or from another race equal to The Time Lords, but possibly not have had the same longetiviy as The Master. I'd say it's highly possible we would have seen a Time Scooped Master in The Five Doctors.

So, Natalie, did you come up with this on your own, or did you just forget that quote feature again.

Given your past record, I'm gonna go with the latter.

No. its my post from my thread. Just not on here.

What thread? Where?

on Reddit.

Ah well, no need for the quote thingie when it's your own stuff

---

quote:

The constant return of The Master is one of the reasons Pertwee's stories seemed to be so repetitious.

Plot: Something unusual happens, M did it, everyone in great danger, no one takes D seriously except his companion and sometimes UNIT, last minute M is foiled, world is saved, M escapes.
Wash rinse repeat.

---

Sandifer had a really good point about the Pertwee stories. You have to factor in UNIT and the Master for this figure to work, but there were only three Pertwee stories that didn't include something from the past returning: The Mutants, Curse of Peladon, and Carnival of Monsters. (This was to raise the point that sequelising Peladon was 'moronic'.)

there were only three Pertwee stories that didn't include something from the past returning: The Mutants, Curse of Peladon, and Carnival of Monsters.

The Mutants and Curse of Peladon had the Time Lords steering the TARDIS and Carnival had a Cyberman.

SPOILERS FOR SPYFALL EPISODE ONE:

'Time Lady, thank you. SOME of us can afford the upgrade' - *swoons with joy*

*Swoons with WAY MORE joy now THE DOCTOR HERSELF is using the 'upgrade' word*

Of course, joy slightly dimmed by the fact the Master seems to be A MAN again. Maybe it's just a cunning disguise...?

(Also...EVIL again. Whatever happened to the Missy Redemption Arc?)

Dark Eyes 3: The Reviled is a Big Finish episode with Alex Macqueen as the Master and featured one Sacha Dhawan.

Can't wait to see Chibnall have the Master reveal he's replaced the Doctor's birth control pills with lollies ("You did not throw up because of a hangover. That was morning sickness, my dear Doctor!").

Many are touting the Indian Guy New Master as the first ethnic minority Master actor - no, that would be Roger Delgado, who was of Spanish descent.

Yes, but you couldn't have known that just be looking at Mr. Delgado.

However, you can tell that the current chap is of Indian background.

Of course, because 'Delgado' is such a British-sounding name!
Or is it Scottish? :D

Emily - "Also...EVIL again. Whatever happened to the Missy Redemption Arc"

The same thing that happened to the Davison-Nice-Guy Act, when he became the Sixth Doctor. Temporary personality change to the other side of morality, I guess.
Unlike River Song, the Master seems to meet up with the Doctor in nearly a straight line (barring Simm Doctor meeting his future Missy self).

Yes, but you couldn't have known that just be looking at Mr. Delgado.

Ehhhhh... I didn't think about until it was mentioned, but afterwards I did realize he had a few Spanish features.

Although these days the old Spanish prejudice is a thing of the past and the Spanish are lumped in with the rest of the evil white Eurotrash prejudice. ;-)

As the subject was brought up there is a series called The Indian Doctor:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Indian_Doctor

Of course no one could have foreseen The Indian Master!

Skyfall:

O is SO ADORABLE when the Doctor asks 'Fancy a trip in the box'. Alright, so he's faking it all but so was Capaldi when he declared that three-dimensional Euclidean geometry has been torn up, thrown in the air and snogged to death so who the hell cares?

Why is the Master happy to kill the Doctor BEFORE telling her he'd destroyed Gallifrey?

Don't think a Master has ever actually been as SCARY as when he's unmasking at the cliffhanger.

'A little chaos is a wonderful thing' - since when has any Master been satisfied with a LITTLE chaos? (Oh, OK. Apart from King's Demons.)

Why the hell does the Master keep turning his back on the Doctor to wave his incredible shrinking device (BLESS!) at the plebs? Why doesn't she take advantage of this?

'When I kill them, Doctor, it gives me a little buzz. Right here, in the hearts. It's like... How would I describe it? It's like... It's like knowing I'm in the right place, doing what I was made for' - well, THAT certainly explains a lot. (Gods, how poor Missy must have suffered...)

'When I arrange for your death, I expect you to stay dead' - ARE YOU ••••••• KIDDING ME MASTER!

DOCTOR: When does all this stop for you? The games, the betrayals, the killing?
MASTER: Why would it stop? I mean, how else would I get your attention? - Well, at least he's man enough to admit it - I was worried that it was only because Missy was female that she pretty much said her/his ENTIRE LIFE had been all about trying to attract the Doctor's attention.

'I'd tell you more, but... but why would I make it easy for you?' - Um...because you LOVE explaining your cunning schemes?

The Master's just ONE of the Doctor's old friends? Not the oldest and bestest or anything?

Why didn't the Master destroy Gallifrey over, say, giving him tinnitus rather than having a dodgy creation myth?

---

quote:

The really interesting part about casting Sacha Dhawan as the Master is the hint it gives to the future casting of the Doctor.

Before casting Jodie Whittaker as the Doctor, the way had been prepared by first discussing Timelords changing gender when they regenerate (the Corsair in The Doctor’s Wife) and then casting Michelle Gomez as Missy.

Now the series has already shown a timelord regenerate from white to BAME (General Kenissium in Hell Bent) and has now cast a BAME actor as the Master. So I’d say there’s a good chance of a BAME actor being cast as the next Doctor.

In which case, it’s an interesting coincidence that Lenny Henry appeared in these episodes, since he’s already played a BAME version of the Doctor in a parody.

---

I really don't think the way has to be carefully prepared for a BAME Doctor, we rather ASSUMED we were getting one in 2010 in the spirit of the Obama Era (and as it turns out Moffat DID choose one). And, whilst numerous JODIE!-haters can, however unconvincingly, claim that 'the Doctor is just a male character, I'm not sexist, honest' it would be bloody difficult to claim the Doctor is a WHITE character without looking racist as hell.

Of course, being racist as hell is quite fashionable in the UK these days.

“I need to hire a caravan, I need a base to operate from because the Master is planning to invade Morecambe”

An paraphrased extract from a prank call the radio show version of Dead Ringers.

A look at the Master's timeline.

Kind of a shame we're probably stuck with the Master's characterisation now being just Simm's permanent mania when it would be interesting to see Dhawan take on the Svengali persona Roger Delgado originally played him as. He's a very good actor and he was very likeable playing "O". But he's clearly struggling to make the role his own; it's still "John Simm but no-one listens to the Scissor Sisters anymore".

Whereas I thought Dhawan wiped the floor with Simm when it came to total-psycho-Master-ness. Simm was a perfectly good Master but he didn't SCARE me.

Though obviously a Delgado-type Master would be lovely* too. Maybe something will happen to calm the rage (like realising it was silly to get so upset about all that Timeless Children stuff, admittedly the Master's not the only one who needs a cooling-off period on this issue) and he'll be more Delgado-like in future.

Mind you, I much preferred him in Spyfall to him in Ascension/Children, probably because he didn't just have to stand there and info-dump for several hours.

*Almost certainly the wrong choice of word.

Re. Francoi's youtube video link; interesting bit of detective work by the video maker, which shows the Dhawan Master can't be from before the Ainley years, because of references to episodes prior to that, which means he's already experienced them.
It makes sense to me that he's between Simms and Missy, and I'm okay with that. I'd even be okay if he's before Jacobi. I'm a lot more lenient in my preferences re. the Master, than I am for the Doctor's timeline.
And it occurs to me that since the Master has possessed bodies before (Tremas, Bruce the paramedic), he might even be possessing his present-day body. Time will tell.

This is the kind of retcon I'm okay with;
from screenrant.com...
"One early scene sees the Doctor and his friends materialize on the runway at Heathrow Airport, causing quite a stir. The police are called - and according to the Radio Times, the animators have added some entertaining Easter eggs in the background. There are two WANTED posters on the walls of the police station, both showing different incarnations of the Master. One is Roger Delgado, the first Master, and the other is Sacha Dhawan. Attentive viewers had noticed the first when a clip was released online, but the second comes as a pleasant surprise.
It's a fascinating change, writing both versions of the Master into earlier Doctor Who history. Delgado's Master wouldn't actually be introduced until 1971, four years after "The Faceless One" first aired, but of course he's a time traveler so could quite easily already be wanted in "The Faceless Ones," which is set in July 1966. Meanwhile, in the episode "Spyfall, Part 2," the Doctor stranded Dhawan's Master in the Second World War. He lived through the rest of the 20th century, and it seems by the '60s he'd become a wanted man in the United Kingdom."

I dislike how where a villain is portrayed as sympathetic just because they're honest about their villainy.

"Oh, I might be a baby-eating demon who rules over psychopaths that kick puppies for fun, but at least I admit it! But my enemies, they lie all the time and some of them are only in it for the money, so they're clearly worse than me!"

The Timeless Children:

MASTER: Take my hand.
DOCTOR: Never. - NEVER? Dammit, THEY CAME SO CLOSE in The Doctor Falls...

'Good luck, humans' - he's just been playing eenie-meenie-miny-moe with their lives and is just about to send Cybermen to kill them, why is he wishing them luck...?

DOCTOR: Why did you do this?
MASTER: Not telling you. - Um, yes, you are, this ENTIRE EPISODE is all about telling the Doc what's pissed you off - Oh, crack a smile.
DOCTOR: Proud of yourself?
MASTER: Definitely.
DOCTOR: All this death finally made you happy?
MASTER: Ecstatic.
DOCTOR: And has it calmed all the rage?
MASTER: I don't think anything will ever do that. - But s/he seemed quite calm when he was Missy, at least after the first few decades in that box...

'Don't heckle, dear' - the Master has GOT TO DIE.

DOCTOR: Whatever you want with me, fine. But save my friends. Don't let the Cybermen take them. If the history between us means anything to you...
MASTER: I do believe you're appealing to my better nature. And we both know I don't have one. - But you doooo! MISSY! - I'm not going to help them, and neither are you. And the history between us does mean something. It's the rage and pain in my hearts. - It's the DOCTOR'S fault the Master is like this? WHY, exactly?

'I thought if he was compressed, the Death Particle would activate and all this would be over. I would've been okay with that. I thought it was a nice little gamble. But no, here we are, all still alive' - blimey, is this the first suicidal Master? Or does this (not his magic-ring-resurrection-plans) explain why Simm chose to die rather than let the Doctor lock him in the TARDIS?

'You know what I find the most infuriating? You always behaved like you were different, like you were... like you were special. And you were. You can see... you can see why I'm angry. A little piece of you is in me. All I am is somehow because of you, and believe me when I say, I cannot bear that' - but all the Master has ever wanted is to be with the Doctor! One way or another! (Well, that and universal domination, anyway.)

'Look how low I have brought you. I have won, Doctor. You may have made me, but I have destroyed you. Become death. Become me. Come on. Come on, come on!' - At least this makes a BIT more sense than when the Dalek God-Emperor AND Rassilon were more interested in what choice the Doctor would make than in ensuring that their species survived. (The Master is, after all, suicidal, totally Doctor-obsessed, and well used to the Doctor foiling her/his fiendish schemes.)

The Master's insanity was way more fun in the smaller-doses of Spfall. Also, he definitely looks better in a tux than when he's trying to look like one of the historical-costumes Old Who Doctors.

'Good luck, humans' - he's just been playing eenie-meenie-miny-moe with their lives and is just about to send Cybermen to kill them, why is he wishing them luck...?

The superstition is that wishing someone good luck usually brings them bad luck

Indeed it does.

Eric Roberts on working on Big Finish:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B-usiEyhPD_/?fbclid=IwAR2Oyb5Gv2fc-nDwq9NOPrzvRCVe0kO11I1eKx5oJynfGq3Hb4KmX9Vs6J4

Like we need to have more of him.

Better more Eric Roberts than someone who used to work at an Indian restaurant frequented by Dave Lister.

I'm guessing that all Emily heard was "meow meow meow meow meow-meow, meow-meow!"
What a cute fat cat!

Better more Eric Roberts than someone who used to work at an Indian restaurant frequented by Dave Lister.

Is this just incomprehensible gibberish or are you being racist about the current Master - again?

I'm guessing that all Emily heard was "meow meow meow meow meow-meow, meow-meow!"
What a cute fat cat!

Well, it is the DARLINGEST-looking oochie, why is it allowing THE MASTER to touch it when he's a snake and I could give it so much non-snake-related love...

are you being racist about the current Master - again?

No just have no respect for how the latest Master is written. I've talked to Sacha on social media. He says he brushes off references to curry and Indira/Rajiv Gandhi. He said it shows how little people know about India beyond what they half remember from Indian History 101.

Why the hell SHOULD he have to 'brush off' racist references to curry? And don't tell me that a lifetime of racism (or sexism or homophobia) doesn't get internalised sooner or later no matter how much 'brushing off' you do.

'Gandhi' means Indira or Rajiv? I always assumed it meant Mahatma.

Some American Whovians on You Tube call him The Paster.

Why?

Paster = Pasta. Like i said, American Whovians.

Only good thing i ever got from the American DW club was a t-shirt with the 1973-80 diamond logo on it...

Some American Whovians on You Tube call him The Paster.

Why?

Paster = Pasta.

Yeah, still not any clearer...

Which YouTubers? I don't recall any of the YouTubers I watch call him that and yet you're damning all American YouTubers with that statement.

It was reported on one of the Doctor Who Facebook groups. Like i said though, I don't have much time for Americans.

It was reported!? You never actually SAW any such YouTube videos?

Did it ever occur to you that said person that made that report was lying?