Moderator's Note: This is Mike's original Dalek summary:

Fearsome devices of death and destruction, or silly tin pots? The Daleks had an up and down career with the Doctor, and were partly responsible for the show's early popularity. Your belief on whether they're scary or not probably depends on how old you were when you first saw them.



Out of curiosity, how did they look on the TV screen? Were they actually pretty good, or did they look like something rejected from Classic Star Trek because they looked too fake?

Gordon, I just got "The Daleks" on video. For being 36 years old, it still holds up pretty well. I actually think the Daleks are more threatening in some parts in this story than they are in later stories. So to answer your wuestion, I think they look pretty good on television, given their obvious limitations (stairs, anyone?).

To be fair, I don't think it was ever explicity stated on the show that Daleks couldn't use stairs. The only time it was addressed was in "Remembrance of the Daleks", where it was positively shown that Daleks could hover up a flight of stairs.

By the time of the 8th Doctor Adventures, we see that there are different forms of Daleks, all specially made for different types of warfare. Makes sense to me; the outside of the Daleks are just shells.

Tom Baker explicitly stated the Daleks couldn't go up stairs in Destiny Of The Daleks.

The Daleks biggest problem is that they were designed by Davros. He was obviously a bit miffed about being in a wheelchair and so decided the new Dalek race should also have to be limited in this way. Wouldn't a far better design have been a humanoid android type thing with the blobby thing in the centre?

I'm guessing that the Kaleds' resources were depleted by the 1000 year war. Davros may have had to use left over wheelchair parts to build his creations. Also, since Davros was nuts, he may have wanted a creation made in his own image.

Chris, the Fourth Doctor didn't say the Daleks couldn't go up stairs, he taunted them with not being able to climb up a rope. Though in the final episode of The Chase someone did mention, in a considerable understatement, that 'Daleks don't like stairs'.

My apologies for not memorising every single line from Doctor Who word for word. Shame on me!

Chris, I sentence you to watching all of the episodes with Mel, in one sitting.

No! No! Have mercy on him, O Moderator...perhaps a rewatching of Destiny of the Daleks would be punishment enough? You don't want to drive him COMPLETELY insane, do you?

Let it be known that my justice is tempered with mercy.....;)

exterminate! Exterminate! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!

The Daleks I think are cool. To those who think of them as silly tin pots, I point at you and shout EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!!! EXTERMINATE!!!!!

That's the main reason why the daleks aren't cool. They're too busy shouting 'Exterminate' to actually get round to exterminating people. Look at that idiot in Remembrance of the Daleks - it had ample time to blast the Doctor into smithereens, but no, it just had to tell him all about it first. Several times. Admittedly this is a common failing amongst the Doctor's enemies, but at least most of them are better at gloating. (Not that I'm really criticising that dalek. It may not have splatted the Doctor, but it certainly traumatised a generation of kids who'd thought they were safe in their bedrooms.)

Emily, this is not just a common failing amongst the Doctor's enemies, but of villains/bad guys/enemies in general. They have the hero trapped, and have to waste time bragging to him about how their plan will work and the hero will be destroyed.

Of course, the Daleks are supposed to be cybernetic, (aren't they? -- it's been a H*LL of a long time since I watched Dr. Who) so shouldn't they be immune to this sort of ego trip?

"Boiling bubbles of hate" I think they've been referred to - the little organic creatures inside appear to be just as twisted and insane as Davros.

For anyone interested, there was a short animated Dalek adventure, Restoration of the Daleks, reviewed in Doctor Who Magazine a few issues back which they gave 9 out of 10.
You can download it at:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~sidrat/download.htm

Actually, it's a combination of CGI and real footage.

Not bad. Actually, I wish someone with the know-how would add some spiffy computer graphics to the audio tracks of lost episodes.

It's implied at the end it leads into the start of The Dalek Invasion of Earth, so I did wonder what K-9 was doing in it, although I suppose it's possible he could continue on for years and years but I wonder who owns him now (we're given the impression it's Sarah Jane's K-9, given the "Beware of the Dog" sign on the gate we saw in The Five Doctors).
The UNIT bits also seemed contemporary but a lot of The Dalek Invasion of Earth seems like 1940s wartrn Britain so maybe it's not surprising.

At Battlefield III they played a bit of it and subsequently auctioned it off for £200. Apparantly it was the only video copy in "the world". Shame, really, because they should've put it on the Comic Relief video. The Special Weapons Dalek was a joy to behold again in particular.

The only copy? Hmmm... Doctor Who Magazine managed to get their hands on a copy and there's a note on the web page to convention organisers to get in touch if they want to show it, so there must be a couple of other video copies around.

> To be fair, I don't think it was ever explicity
> stated on the show that Daleks couldn't use
> stairs. The only time it was addressed was in
> "Remembrance of the Daleks", where it was
> positively shown that Daleks could hover up a
> flight of stairs.

True, but the look on the Doctor's face is a very strong suggestion that he had never seen a Dalek do that before.

Is there anything new that can be said about the Daleks?

Hmmm... if, given the chance, and they took time out from exterminating everyone, they'd teach the universe how to make really great coffee?

Man: Can I have a cup of coffee?
Dalek: How about some capucino?
Man: No, just plain coffee.
Dalek: Some Arabica ground roast?
Man: Whatever, do you have Maxwell House?
Dalek: MAXWELL HOUSE!!!!???? EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!

In response to my own question, clearly not.

According to the A-Z of Doctor Who, Daleks can travel up to 2000 mph on a flat surface.

That's almost as fast as the Flash. I think maybe a zero or two were added there.

The Silver Age Flash could run at the speed of light, which is around 670,615,000 mph.

Since the speed of light is 299,792,458 meters per second (which for us metrically impaired Americans who would rather not deal with a simple and easy base ten measuring system is 186,282.397 miles per hour), that is rather impressive for Silver Age Flash, what with him changing a physical constant like that on a whim.

I know, a little nitpicky of me.

I really must read these posts. Conversion of Miles per second to miles per hour makes Keith Alan Morgan correct.

Sorry about that, just ignore my previous post. Amazing how a calculator can destroy my baloon of smugness.

Sorry. Sorry. I am just going to spank myself in total embarrasment.

[Smug mode engaged]

I was always under the impression that the Flash's top speed was 2100 MPH. Or was that a different version?

I believe you're thinking of Flash III, or The Flash TV show.

Flash I (Jay Garrick) aka The Golden Age Flash. Not certain of top speed, but stories in the 60's & 70's indicated that he could go as fast as Flash II.

Flash II (Barry Allen) aka The Silver Age Flash. Faster than the speed of light.

Flash III (Wally West) sometimes called the Modern Age Flash, formerly Kid Flash. When he became the Flash he did have a speed limit, but he has since overcome that.

TV Flash, called Barry Allen, but had powers & female sidekick of Wally West.

I clearly remember an episode in which The Doctor escaped from a crowd of Daleks by going down some stairs. It's been a long time, but I think he was on some kind of verandah which was overrun by Daleks, and he escaped by going down about four steps and into the garden. I think it was Tom Baker, but I'm really not sure.

Daily Express, July 6th 2000. Page 12.
Headline:

HOW THE DALEKS HAVE MADE MY LIFE A MISERY

A mother-of-two who is terrified of Daleks claims the sinister sci-fi robots have ruined her life.
Shona McLaren, 39, is so scared of the Dr Who aliens she dreads the thought of them appearing on her TV.
Hearing the words 'Exterminate, exterminate' sends her into a blind panic and even the show's theme tune makes her hide behind the sofa.
Mrs McLaren has sought medical help for her problem and has even asked members of her local church to pray for her. But despite attempts to confront her fears she is still no nearer to curing her bizarre phobia.
She now lives in fear of the BBC repeating any of the 600 episodes of the cult series which was first shown in 1963 and is dreading the making of a proposed Dr Who movie.
Mrs McLaren, of Tullibody, Clackmannanashire said: 'The sight of them on TV or in magazines drives me mad. I'm a mature woman with two kids but I've always dreaded the thought of them coming anywhere near me. Daleks make me ill - they've ruined my life.'
For years Mrs McLaren tried to hide her strange secret believing peopl would laugh when she told them. But she has now broken her silence in an effort to finally beat her phobia.
Her first encounter with the characters came when she was just six, after sitting down to watch TV on a Saturday night. She said: 'One of my brothers told me there was a brilliant new show on called Dr Who and I sat down to watch. Then I saw the Daleks. I'd never seen anything so creepy. I broke into a cold sweat although my mum told me it was only make believe. I couldn't get them out of my head.'
Despite being teased by her brothers, Mrs McLaren managed to avoid Daleks until she saw a boy in an alien outfit at a fancy dress party when saw was 11.
Four years later the phobia was so bad she asked the ministers and elders at a local church to pray for her. 'They had prayed for all sorts of things before but never to rid someone of the fear of Daleks,' she added.
Now happily married to husband Kevin, 42, Mrs McLaren's phobia is as bad as ever and was recently sparked during a visit to Ingliston market in Edinburgh. Mr McLaren said: 'My sister Heather innocently mentioned there was a life-size Dalek on a stall. I turned round and Shona had already begun to charge up the street.'
Phobia expert Mark Kenwright, a cognitive behaviour therapist at London's Maudsley Hospital said Mrs McLaren's phobia was common. 'It may seem strange she fears something as odd as a Dalek but the fear is very real. Many phobias can be traced back to childhood experiences,' he said.

------------

'She now lives in fear of the BBC repeating any of the 600 episodes...' it says. Well. No need to worry on that front.

I don't believe it! Coming from Tullibody, she must be one of my boss's constituents. Hmm...in the interests of keeping his seat, maybe I should drop the idea of sending her a dapol Dalek through the post...

Does anyone else find themselves envying her? Think how much more exciting Destiny of the Daleks would be!

After reading that, I rolled my eyes so much I almost sprained them. What a pathetic loser!

Wait a minute. I'm pretty sure that there are 700 episodes of Doctor Who, not 600.

Oh, sorry. I forgot about the Missing Episodes.

She must get a nasty shock when happens to glance at the word "dalek" in the dictionary.

Let's see now. Show starts in Nov '63. She is 39 now so was probably born around '61. So the show has been on for eight years when her brother told her about this 'brilliant new show'. The only Dalek story around that time was Day of the Daleks Jan '72.

That concludes this episode of Luiny Facts.

See how life imitates art? Shona McLaren must be the first sufferer of Grimwade's Syndrome! Oh the irony, the irony... the show that creates people like Shona McLaren coins the term for it.

"Genesis of the Daleks" is THE BEST Dalek episode ever!

That's a difficult one. 'Evil of the Daleks' is just as good in it's own way, and 'Remembrance of the Daleks' is cool too. Then there is 'Power of the Daleks' and 'The Daleks' Masterplan'. The problem with 'Genesis' is more to do with over-exposure.

Still, if someone asked me to show them a good Doctor Who story - and they hadn't seen much Who - I'd be inclined to pick Genesis.

Gosh...you mean there's actually a possibility
that someone might ASK you to play them
Who? That hasn't happened to me for a LONG
time...

Yes... they've very special moments. What's worse is when someone stays with you for a while and says "I watched some of your Doctor Whos while you were out, hope you don't mind."
Of course, your joy at this immediately turns to horror after you find out they chose Timelash.

Re: the Dalek phobe story. I loved that article! It had a picture of the poor woman right next to a huge picture of a dalek. She'll never be able to frame the cutting to show people her one moment of "fame"!

Someone in the newspaper offices obviously had a sense of humour.

I converted some of my friends into Doctor Who fans about four years ago. One of them is now a full-on fanatic, collects the target novelisations and watches it any chance he can get.
As for Daleks travelling up stairs, Davros levitates in 'Revelation of the Daleks' which implies the Daleks can as well, one whoel story earlier than 'Remembrance'.
Also, in 'The Chase', it's clear that the Daleks have travelled up the stairs in the haunted house, as their machine is on the bottom floor yet they are able to get to the top floor - we just don't see it happen due to the constraints of sixties television special effects.

The Daleks can now be seen on the latest Kit-Kat advert. "I-WANT-A-CUDDLE" they screech. They look impressive too. None of your plasticky Remembrance Daleks.

I want a cuddle? I WANT A CUDDLE!!! What IS the world coming to??? Desperate as I am to remind the general public of the existence of Who, I'm not sure that I can condone such blasphemy.

You've got to be yanking my chain. Daleks prostituting themselves to sell candy bars? Are they so desparate for work like so many has been actors?

I weep for the poor fascist salt shakers. I can only think that Davros must be their agent.

What next? Nimon selling Trojan condoms? Cybermen selling Turtle Wax? Mawdrynn selling face cream?

Run for your lives, the capitalists have taken over the world!

(Close-up of a Dalek)
Dalek: EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!!!
(Camera pulls back to reveal Dalek in a hair salon)
Dalek: Exterminate the grey in your hair with Miss Clairol.

I really wish I'd gone into advertising.

*Feeling infinitely thankful Keith never went into advertising*

It's all a cunning plan, isn't it? I mean, it MUST be! If the Daleks were ever THAT desperate for work, they wouldn't appear on TV saying 'I want a cuddle', they'd whizz round and round and then explode. We've all seen it happen. Death before dishonour and all that. So it's obviously all a con to cure the human race's Dalekphobia. What better way to expunge from the psyche those deep-seated childhood memories of cowering behind the sofa? When they invade Earth everyone'll just stand around giggling 'I want a cuddle' at them, giving even the stupidest Dalek time to say 'Exterminate!' fourteen times before finally gunning down the insolent human. Rather like the stair thing - always PRETENDING not to be able to climb them, just so they could see the look on Sylvester McCoy's face when they finally whooshed up the stairs towards him.

I misquoted the ad. Sorry - it was 'Give us a cuddle'. They chase after people in the Dalek setting of a department store in a deeply ironic advert which sees Bernard Manning, for example, be nice to a woman whilst ironing. It is ironic because in reality, he's an infamously racist, sexist, foul-mouthed Yorkshire comedian who goes round working mens' clubs being blue. After a few of these ironic sketches, the advert (which started with the Daleks), ends with them. In a poorly shot tacked-on-the-end-of-the-advert skit, the two Daleks seen earlier follow a line of Hari Krishnas screeching 'PEACE!' and 'LOVE!'

I can only presume Alpha, Beta and Omega snuck away from all the chaos and carnage at the end of 'Evil of the Daleks' and wound up in Littlewoods. After all, if you have the Human Factor, where else would you go but Earth?

I can't believe I've just made the KitKat advert canon!

Hmmm. Your full explanation didn't really improve on the Dalek's now current image. Sounds like they are going to break out in the Beatles 'All You Need is Love'. Turning the Fascists into Hippys? Is there a flower on the ends of their blaster guns?

I am sure the advert is trying to make characters into exact opposites, which can be funny. But as far as the Daleks goes, it does somewhat cheapen their image. And Emily makes a point. How are our kids watching the videos supposed to be frightened of them like most of us were at that age. Instead of hiding behind a sofa, they are going to demand soft cuddly fuzzy Tickle Me Daleks - soon to be in stores in time for Christmas. And soon singing Daleks will replace singing purple dinosaurs to entertain the children on Television.

One bright light in all this, is that apparently the company advertising KitKat understands that Doctor Who (or at least the Daleks) is still a cultural and popular icon in the UK. Like Star Trek is in the US (you should've seen the ads for Priceline.com with William Shatner). Hopefully the BBC will come to their senses and figure that out, as well.

KitKat canon? It has the Daleks. It is on television. Must be canon. Anybody that has seen Curse of the Fatal Death knows that.

So. No sooner do I (finally, belatedly) accept the books as the True Expression of Whodom and stop thinking of them as pathetically inadequate substitutes for the real thing (whilst obviously in no way lessening my rabid desperation to see Who return to the small screen) the BBC go and slash them in half. And what are they going to replace the ten lost books a year with...s t u p i d cash-in Dalek books. TWO of them. Bringing together every scrap of information about the metal meanies, as if we hadn't already heard all that utter rubbish about them not having a letter J and not being able to see the colour red (making it difficult to spot red Daleks, one would have thought). And, after all, bitter experience has taught that Dalek spin-off thingies are utterly and totally useless. It's not as if Terry Nation could flog them off even to gullible Americans. Or as if the Cushing movies were anything other than unspeakable abominations redeemed only by their total non-canonicity. And, take it from someone who's just had the misfortune to listen to all four of them, the non-Doctor Dalek Empire spin-off tapes are also a waste of time, not to mention money, plastic, and anything else you can think of. I mean - 'astounding stories of the outer-space robot people created by Terry Nation'???

Admittedly the last one is slightly less awful than the others, but that's because Susan Mendes has FINALLY stopped having moral dilemmas about helping the Daleks and got herself

Spoilers for Project Infinity:
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EXTERMINATED.

I thought it might have been great if that metallic reptile Magnetdon was featured in other stories set on Skaro
that thing had potential
If only K9 was active in DESTINY , Magnetdon and K9 might have an interesting comfrontation.
or even the Slither
It might have been Interesting if Tom Baker found a Magnetdon to use as a magnet to interfere with Dalek steering.
Or in Evil,Troughten could have screwed with Dalek Static power with a little Magnetdon.

Yeah, now you mention it that was a very sweet-looking monster. Though I suppose it wouldn't have been for long if the Who production team had actually tried to make one that walked around and stuff.

Dalek Cop, front & profile.

It was drawn by Sarah Huntrods who does the online comic Ceph (no link because it features nudity) who said this guy appeared in one of her dreams.

Mind you, the T.V critic Victor Lewis-Smith took the Mickey out of the Daleks, in his series T.V Offal !
I still can't get over the Daleks singing YMCA, in his clip of Destiny of The Daleks !
"white Wee-Wee anyone ?"

"Remembrance of the Daleks" was super-duper-Uuper cool.

I must add that Roy Skelton does the VERY BEST Dalek voices that I ever heard.

So...how important do people think the Daleks ARE to the series? I.e. what kind of devastating blow has been dealt to the Hope And Joy Of Our Lives by the actions of the so-called Terry Nation Estate, all of whom should be hung, drawn and quartered immediately? Were the BBC right to tell them to go to hell, or should they have given in to any amount of preposterous blackmail so that our screens could once more be graced with shrieks of 'EXTERMINATE!'???

Well, while I'm not exactly sure how to respond to your impassioned message, Emily, I do think no Daleks in the new series=possible big trouble. I guess it depends, though. Daleks for Daleks' sake would seemingly apply just to the casual viewer, ie Doctor Who just isn't itself without them. However, I certainly wouldn't have wanted to see the Daleks in a episode that was poorly written (comparable to Cybermen in "Silver Nemesis"?). I'd say for my part it's distressing but we'll just have to wait and see.

I for one am very happy that there will be no Daleks in the new series. I was always baffled by everyone's fascination with those rolling trash cans. The novels have managed to survive with almost no appearances by them (though there were lots of mentions).

I can't understand just how the Nation estate thinks it's going to make any money off of the Daleks outside of Who. Are there people clamoring for a Daleks TV show? That didn't work 30 years ago, so what makes them think it'll work now?

HAPPY?!!! Irrespective of our feelings about the bubbling lumps of hate (and how can ANYONE not love them! I mean, cower in terror of them) no Daleks is exceptionally bad news cos:

a) the general public (who we've GOT to get watching or NO MORE SERIESES) associate Daleks with Who, irrevocably, and will feel cheated by their lack, and would tune in for them the way they wouldn't automatically tune in for the Doctor (just look at the number of books War of the Daleks sold, and let's face it, it WASN'T due to the quality of the writing). If the Giant Rat from Talons was (goddess forbid) the public's all-time favourite monster I'd be demanding its return, albeit with gritted teeth;

b) The Daleks are one of the few things that link every era of Who - however utterly different (say) the Hartnell, Tom Baker and McCoy years were from each other, they had Daleks as one of their common threads - hell, even the McGann movie had them (er...more-or-less);

c) The The BBC is made to look grossly incompetent by announcing that they'd come to a deal about the Daleks and then announcing that, oops, no they hadn't. (Alright, WE all know the BBC is grossly incompetent. No need to let everyone else know, when they're FINALLY on the brink of giving us our heart's desire);

d) Any Dalek scripts would have been bloody brilliant. Just listen to Shearman's Jubilee, the best Big Finish without a doubt;

e) I WANT DALEKS. I've waited fifteen ******* years for a new series of Doctor Who and I WANT SOME ******* DALEKS IN IT! Is that too much to ask???

Baloney. The public may be dim, but they're not so dim as avoid the new series due to lack of Daleks. In fact, some new viewers may be attracted because of the missing Daleks.

Most of my favorite Who novels had absolutely no Daleks in them at all, as did many of the best Who stories (City of Death, anyone?). I'm sure the new series will succeed without the little pepperpots.

The BBC is already thought of as grossly incompetent, so losing the Dalek deal seems like business as usual.

"Any Dalek script would have been bloody brilliant" Oh yeah? Remember "Planet of the Daleks"? "The Chase"? "Destiny of the Daleks"? "Resurrection of the Daleks"? "Revelation of the Daleks"?

The show will be just fine. Worry more about the companion than the Daleks.

The Dead Planet, Genesis of the Daleks, Remembrance of the Daleks -- some of Who's best, I think. No Daleks would be like no TARDIS; I'd rank "Exterminate!" right up there with that wheezing/groaning sound. They're a fundamental part of Who mythology. Now, I can understand your annoyance at the monotonous regularity with which they're trotted out (I personally can't stand Cybermen because they're treated the same way), but no Daleks would be a little sad.

There’s always the future seasons to hope for.

When/If the BBC get the deal done, they'll put them in straight away. It may not be till the 2nd season or the 7th season. I’d be happier if Daleks weren’t in the 1st season it’s too early, 3rd or 4th season would be fine with me.

I agree with Mike, Doctor Who will be just fine.

Adam's got a good point--just because Nation's estate is too dumb to take the money now, it doesn't mean that they won't cave in the future. After all, they did finally agree to let their sacred tinpots appear in the BBC novels, after blocking them from the Virgins.

after blocking them from the Virgins.
Well no wonder the Daleks are so cranky. Sexual frustration! ;-)

I liked Destiny Of The Daleks. And while remembrance is a good Dalek story I don't think it's as good as many fans seem to think it is.

I think the big problem with the Daleks is overuse. They're like Doctor Doom to Marvel Comics or the Borg to Star Trek. Uber-powerful villains who get used too much to be believable. It's like the gag in The Curse Of Fatal Death. "EX-TER-MIN-ATE! EX-TER-MIN-ATE! EX-TER-MIN-ATE!" The next scene the Doctor & his companion are tied up.

I'm glad they won't have to rely on the Dalek crutch for the first new season, although if ratings are low we'll probably see them in the first episode of the next season. If the new season is successful then the BBC can wait till the Nation estate becomes desperate for money.
"WILL EX-TER-MIN-ATE FOR FOOD!"

If the new series has a fresh look and feel as it's supposed to, it's not hard to imagine the Daleks would as well. I'm not suggesting any fundamental redsigns, but they could be made more menacing. After having conquered Earth in the second series, they finally conqured stairways in the last one. This would obviously be used in the new series. Perhaps they could even fly. The special weapons Dalek would be employed all the time and not just for a climax. There could be other kinds of Daleks introduced, etc.

They could work. Or rather, could have. But they'd have to be reinvented.

Definitely, Kevin. Does anyone else have the book Doctor Who Regeneration which details the efforts to bring the TV movie into being? In very early stages of development, an artist by the name of Leekley reimagined the Daleks. I'll have to go back and look at the book more closely, but I seem to remember the Dalek blobs could eject from their casings on a regular basis and had sharp objects attached to their tentacles.

The public may be dim, but they're not so dim as avoid the new series due to lack of Daleks.

Please don't underestimate the stupidity of the Great British Public. They are almost as stupid as Americans!

I'm not claiming for a moment, however, that they would actively avoid the new series. It's just that the Dalek episode(s) would inevitably get massive publicity - Radio/TV Times covers, etc - which would almost certainly tip the balance for a few hundred thousand weirdoes flicking through the channels wondering what to do on a Saturday night (instead of doing the sane thing and gazing fixedly at BBC1 with tears of joy running down their cheeks).

Of course, cancelling the Daleks has generated plenty of publicity, too. Let's hope it'll be The Sun Wot Won It For The Daleks. (Er...for those fortunate enough not to know, the Sun is Britain's biggest-selling tabloid, a 'newspaper' for right-wing morons that quite accurately claims it's wot won the 1992 election for the Tories.)

Hell, I even bumped into a very embarrassed Dalek outside my workplace (Parliament) a couple of days ago - the poor darling had a 'Sun' placard stuck to it. They really have come down in the world.

I'm sure the new series will succeed without the little pepperpots.

Yeah, it'll succeed (it had bloody well BETTER) but it'll succeed with one of its main ingredients very obviously AWOL. And we just can't afford any nasty slips like that. Not when the BBC are splashing out an unprecedented £1 million an episode. It's got to be spectacularly successful - critically acclaimed AND watched by the entire country - if we've got a hope of getting ourselves another 26 years.

Any Dalek script would have been bloody brilliant" Oh yeah? Remember "Planet of the Daleks"? "The Chase"? "Destiny of the Daleks"? "Resurrection of the Daleks"? "Revelation of the Daleks"?

Did I not mention that the Dalek script was by Rob Shearman, the man who - regardless of his sad obsession with Christmas puddings - REALLY knows what makes a Dalek tick?

And even if you don't want a Dalek script or two, you have to admit that rewriting them at the last minute and upsetting the balance of the entire series (which presumably would have been counting on the Dalek script(s) as highlights of the show) is a bad idea.

Anyway, I like Resurrection. It's scary.

Worry more about the companion than the Daleks.

I AM worrying about the wretched Companion! I was relying on the Daleks to exterminate her!

They're a fundamental part of Who mythology.

Yes! And they're the bit that everyone has heard of!

Now, I can understand your annoyance at the monotonous regularity with which they're trotted out (I personally can't stand Cybermen because they're treated the same way)

Hey! Were we not cruelly deprived of Cyber-related joys for the ENTIRE JON PERTWEE ERA?

I think the big problem with the Daleks is overuse.

True, true, but that's not really a problem any more. Not when all they've had in the last sixteen years is a few minutes in a Comic Relief sketch, a couple of bad books and a bunch of bad audios.

if ratings are low we'll probably see them in the first episode of the next season

Ha. If ratings are low we'll be dammed lucky to GET another season. (See above re £1 million.)

If the new season is successful then the BBC can wait till the Nation estate becomes desperate for money.

Unfortunately it looks as if they're way more interested in power than money.

Perhaps they could even fly.

Yes! Loads of papers were reporting that the new Daleks were going to fly. Of course, one takes everything they say with a pinch of salt, but think of the joy of flying Daleks!!! (OK, so they'd probably look daft, but AT LAST everyone would shut up about them not being able to climb stairs and we wouldn't have to look like complete anoraks by quoting episode one of Remembrance at people all the time.)

Please don't underestimate the stupidity of the Great British Public. They are almost as stupid as Americans!

Ha, you wish. I'll put the great unwashed American public up against your Sun-reading masses anyday. Half of us can't even find London on a map. Have you ever listened to the questions on our version of "Who Wants to be a Millionaire"? (I do! who wants to travel everywhere? I do!.... -- sorry, bit of childhood Goodies dropping in there.)

but think of the joy of flying Daleks!!!
Look! Up in the sky!
It's a missile!
No! It's a bomb!
No! It's SuperDalek!

Yes, SuperDalek. Strange visitor from another planet. Able to leap tall staircases in a single bound...

So, Emily, you mean that anything that attracts the non-Who fans to the show is okay? Which, of course, means that the new show should always feature scantily-clad female companions, a la' Leela and Peri? Cos that what it sounds like to me.

You know, it's just possible a combination of solid story-telling, good acting, and decent special effects might just bring in the uninitiated, Daleks or no. Then again, it's hard to say; TV execs haven't tried this formula very often.

So, Emily, you mean that anything that attracts the non-Who fans to the show is okay?

I didn't say anyTHING. I said any MONSTER. I have my standards, slim though they may be after so many decades of unrequited yearning. (OK, I exaggerate slightly about the 'decades'. But not by much - I've waited half my lifetime for a new series.)

If the public demand a Starship Enterprise and a Captain Kirk (or Spock, or whatever) to make the series work...then screw them. But if they want Daleks, then - even aside from my own fondness for the creatures, AND the fact that, objectively speaking, they're pretty good (they don't just look like a man in a suit which, let's face it, is more than you can say for most Who monsters) - I can sympathise. It's not too much to ask. (Well, obviously it IS, curses.)

Which, of course, means that the new show should always feature scantily-clad female companions, a la' Leela and Peri?

Ah. Tricky question, but I'm desperate enough to come down on the 'Yes, alright, HAVE your bloody scantily-clad females!' side. Leela at least proved that few clothes doesn't necessarily equal screaming wimp. And, intensely irritating as I found Peri's dress code (or lack thereof) she was a lot less annoying than her fully-clad successor. I am - to put it mildly - not exactly over-the-moon about this Billie Piper thing, but if an ex-pop star is what it takes to make the new series successful then - providing she's not TOO dreadful an actress - I can take it.

You know, it's just possible a combination of solid story-telling, good acting, and decent special effects might just bring in the uninitiated, Daleks or no.

Yes! Absolutely! I just don't see why we can't have Daleks AS WELL!

So you can sell out, if the price I right. Good to know.

Hey - I never denied that I would sell body and/or soul for a new series of Who. But selling OUT...I fail to see how putting up with scantily-clad females can be described thus. They are a traditional, one might almost say integral, part of Who.

I don't even know where to start in responding to that, so I'll just let it drop.

I fail to see how putting up with scantily-clad females can be described thus. They are a traditional, one might almost say integral, part of Who.

Wasn't the first scantily clad female Leela?

I would hardly describe Susan, Barbara, Vicki, Dodo, Polly, Victoria, Zoe, Liz, Jo or Sarah as scantily clad.

After Leela the next scantily clad companion would probably be Nyssa with her striptease on Terminus, then Peri in her bikini in Planet of Fire.

One companion & two isolated instances hardly seem to qualify as "integral".

Jo and Sarah Jane both made in apearances in some skimpy outfits (SJ wore a bathing suit in "Death to the Daleks").

I would hardly describe Susan, Barbara, Vicki, Dodo, Polly, Victoria, Zoe, Liz, Jo or Sarah as scantily clad.

Liz wore mini-skirts (and even mini-labcoats, for heaven's sake). Zoe wore that extremely tight catsuit. And the first thing Victoria did after joining the TARDIS crew was to put on a skimpy dress.

After Leela the next scantily clad companion would probably be Nyssa with her striptease on Terminus, then Peri in her bikini in Planet of Fire.

AND practically every other item of Peri's clothing.

And don't forget Tegan's white outfit - the one she got blisters from being sewn so tightly into. And her penchant for mini-skirts, decades after the rest of the human race had given up on them.

Jo and Sarah Jane both made in apearances in some skimpy outfits (SJ wore a bathing suit in "Death to the Daleks").

AND Jo's always flashing her knickers. (Look, _I've_ never noticed this going on! But it says so in the Completely Useless Encyclopedia, so it must be true.)

Anyway...as Who fans, WE know that not every Companion is a leather-clad screaming bimbo designed to keep the dads watching after the football results, but ask the public what comes to mind when Who is mentioned, and that sort of thing would be almost up there with Daleks and wobbly sets.

How come nobody's mentioned Turlough in Planet of Fire?

(If there's any doubt, it *is* a rhetorical question.)

Surely, there should be "Who is the Most Scantialy clad Dr.Who Asssistant/Companion thread" on which we could disscuss this question further...?

Mike - SJ wore a bathing suit in "Death to the Daleks"
Now that you mention it I sorta have a vague memory of her in somekinda old-fashioned looking bathing attire. Was that it?

Emily - Liz wore mini-skirts (and even mini-labcoats, for heaven's sake).
Guess my definition of scantily-clad involves showing more skin than your definition.

Zoe wore that extremely tight catsuit.
Yes, but she was completely covered except for her head & hands.

And the first thing Victoria did after joining the TARDIS crew was to put on a skimpy dress.
I've only see Tomb Of The Cybermen & she seemed well-covered there.

I did wonder what kind of outfit Katarina wore, but as I've never seen any of her episodes, I have no idea what she wore.

And don't forget Tegan's white outfit
I think I have. The only white outfit I remember is her shirt that she wore under her stewardess jacket.
Then again Tegan is my least favorite companion, so I suppose it's understandable that I wasn't looking at her that much.
Closest thing to skimpy I remember her wearing was the Flapper outfit in Black Orchid.

Kevin - How come nobody's mentioned Turlough in Planet of Fire?
Or Jamie in his skirt. ;-)

Benny Hill - Surely, there should be "Who is the Most Scantialy clad Dr.Who Asssistant/Companion thread" on which we could disscuss this question further...?
*Suddenly Yakkity Sax begins playing and everyone starts chasing after Benny in high speed*

Katarina wore a kind of a toga get up.

Teegan, after returning to the TARDIS in "Arc of Infinity", favored tight blouses and leather mini-skirts.

How come nobody's mentioned Turlough in Planet of Fire?

I DID actually think of Turlough! Then I checked what we were supposed to be talking about, and it DID say 'female'. Sadly, given that Turlough IS a prime example of a Companion getting their kit off.

Guess my definition of scantily-clad involves showing more skin than your definition.

I confess - I'm a prude. Or at least have a different definition of scantily-clad to every man I've ever met.

Zoe wore that extremely tight catsuit.

Yes, but she was completely covered except for her head & hands.

Yeah. The thought did occur to me, but I decided to slip her in on the grounds that she may not have been following the letter of that particular definition, but she was certainly following the spirit.

I've only see Tomb Of The Cybermen & she seemed well-covered there.

It was Tomb I was thinking of. The totally-oppressed-and-terrified-of-legs Victorian maiden spends two minutes in the TARDIS and she's wearing a very short dress. By our standards it's nothing much, but anyone from her culture who wore such a thing would probably get locked in the nearest lunatic asylum. SHE thinks it's too short but the Doctor - in an extremely rare demonstration that he DOES actually care about sartorial matters - pressures her into it.

The only white outfit I remember is her shirt that she wore under her stewardess jacket.

Remember the Black Guardian trilogy? She was wearing this (as it transpires) painfully tight white lacy top and shorts for most of it.

They're BAAAAAAAAAAAAAACKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!

The world is indeed a good and happy place.

A good & happy place... TO BE EX-TER-MIN-ATED!

(sounds of Daleks firing & people dying in negative images)

So which side caved in, Aunty Beeb or the Nation Estate?

I'd love to know that! Not that it really matters, I suppose, as long as our ickle didumses - sorry! I really must remember that the Daleks are evil killing machines and not, in any way, fluffy kittens - as long as the bubbling lumps of hate are THERE. On our screens. Killing people.

Now that would be a funny scene. A Dalek casing opens up and out pops a cute wittle fuzzy kitten...

which then proceeds to rip out the throat of the nearest victim. ;-)

Sort of like the killer rabbit from "MP and the Holy Grail"?

Forgot about that, although after posting my last entry I did remember an Avengers episode that featured housecats being turned into killers.

KAM, not to mention the killer kitties from Sluggy Freelance.

Why is everyone so horrid to kitties! They would NEVER do anything like that!!! Even the...slightly odd-looking precious in Survival was no doubt hypnotised into hunting people by that evil Master.

Horrid? It's called Feline Empowerment, Emily. Unleashing the Tiger within.

Never seen a cat 'play' with a mouse, lizard or snake?

ScottN, I don't read Sluggy Freelance so I couldn't mention that. ;-)

Never seen a cat 'play' with a mouse, lizard or snake?

No comment.

(Look, I'm sure the poor dead bird was just ASKING for it. In fact, dying for the amusement of the cuteling moggie was probably its entire raison d'etre.)

OK, Daleks.

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Two problems with Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways:

1. The Doctor claims the Daleks call him 'The Oncoming Storm'. Wrong! According to the books (which got there first) the DRACONIANS call him the Oncoming Storm - the Daleks call him Bringer of Darkness.

2. The Doctor says something along the lines of 'You might have removed all your emotions, but I bet I still scare the **** out of you'. Since when have Daleks removed all their emotions???!!! That's CYBERMEN (allegedly, anyway). Daleks are big on emotions, well, the negative ones anyway. Didn't the Seventh Doctor describe them as 'bubbling lumps of hate'?

One could argue that these Daleks are a different breed from previous ones, but the MAIN difference is that this bunch has found God, and religious mania surely requires MORE emotion than hitherto.

In 'Dalek' the Doctor tells Van Statten that they have removed every emotion except hate. I assume that's specific to the newly religious ones. Let's give him the benefit of poetic licence and that it means the others have been supressed (which would explain why they tend to crack up).

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In 'Dalek' the Doctor tells Van Statten that they have removed every emotion except hate. I assume that's specific to the newly religious ones.

OK, now I'm REALLY confused. Cos the eponymous hero of 'Dalek' was one of the OLD breed who just happened to fall through time (just like the Dalek god-to-be - for heaven's sake can't the Doctor ensure, when he's blowing every Dalek in existence out of the sky, that there aren't wormholes or something all over the place)...where was I...so the Doc's saying that OLD Dalek types have no emotions bar hate, and new religious types have no emotions but feel fear anyway? Did he really think they were crying 'WORSHIP HIM WORSHIP HIM!' all the time out of LOGIC?

Let's give him the benefit of poetic licence

No, let's not! Where would nitpickers be if they allowed this 'poetic licence' thing?

and that it means the others have been supressed (which would explain why they tend to crack up)

But there's a big difference between surgical removal and suppression. (But then the Doctor suggests that the religious Daleks are driven mad by their own humanity, so...oh, I give up. Daleks are obviously as impossible to comprehend as humans. And all the Ninth Doctor's statements on them have to be taken with several pinches of salt, given that they SPOILERED Gallifrey. (Or he did, trying to blow 'em up. Something I'd quite like clarification on.)

The cover of the Christmas Radio Times - complete with Doctor Who picture as well it should be - carries a 'Win a Real Dalek' advertisement:

http://www.radiotimes.com/content/magflash/

Erm...I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be a REAL Dalek...

Unless this contest is part of Davros' latest fiendish plan to RULE THE WORLD!.....

Unlucky Prize Winner (ULP): Oh boy! My prize came!

ULP opens the packing crate

Dalek: Exterminate! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!!!!!

The Dalek exterminates the ULP.

The page says "Have the Radio Times delivered to your door for free" yet there is no option to choose 'Overseas'. Is this false advertising along the lines of winning a "real" Dalek?

The big question is where do the Daleks go from here? Will they become like the Cybermen and just have a few skulking around in a rusted old ship or will they be back in force?

Someone's just given me a pair of oven mitts with a Dalek on them saying "Exterminate" and the Doctor Who logo on them. Why would anyone think whacking Doctor Who stuff on oven mitts would be a great idea? Did they think, "Hmm, Doctor Who fans must still all have Gary Downie's Doctor Who Cookbook, about time they had the oven mitts to go with it, 20 years' later!"

Probably, yes.

And look on the bright side - at least people are (trying to be) supportive of your Who feelings. Instead of, say, carting you off to a lunatic asylum as I'm sure my mother has yearned to do to me on many occasions.

Yes, can agree with the "trying to be" - they go to the effort of buying a Doctor Who video and it turns out be Paradise Towers or Timelash.

You're lucky--my brother-in-law thought he was doing me a favor by buying me the Peter Cushing film on DVD.

Oh, someone already bought me both of those films - I've actually got them twice from two separate people!

I'm not surprised. Last time I was in Oz, they were in every single CD/DVD store I went to, and I went to many.

How do the Daleks always recognize the Doctor regardless of his current appearance?

Could be just a simple scan of his body--they can spot the two hearts. They also have been shown to have an excellent information gathering system; in (for example) "Evil of the Daleks", they had photos of the 2nd Doctor and Jamie.

I'm trying to remember if they always know him as soon as the they spot him. I kind of recall from "Remembrance of the Daleks" that it took a minute or two before they deduced #7 was the current Doctor.

They didn't immediately recognize him in Army of Ghosts. Rose had to tell them. Of course, they were looking at him on a security tape.

But they did immediately know that he was someone important , that they should pay attention too or else they would never have asked Rose who he was.
I loved the instinctive, automatic step back they took when they found out it was the Doctor.

One Dalek definately seems to recognize him even in Power of the Daleks.

We're gonna have art deco Daleks. *Much rapturous sighing* What have we done to deserve such happiness?

Oh yeah. Waited sixteen ******* years for Who to come back. We've EARNED our art deco Daleks.

Oh. Have a nasty suspicion - from all that raving on Confidential about the Dalek-in-lift look, not to mention from aesthetics so obviously NOT being at the forefront of the Daleks' desperate attempts to evolve and survive - that when we were promised art deco Daleks they just meant 'a Dalek standing in an art deco lift'. Pah.

Ah well. I suppose it WOULD have been out of character for the bubbling lumps of hate to react so drastically to snide Cyberman remarks about them having no concept of elegance...

I just got through watching the Greatest Moments Enemies special in which everyone was raving about how newly terrifying it was to see a Dalek finally conquer stairs ("Dalek"). Does no one remember "Remembrance of the Daleks"?

There was some levitation in Revelation as well, but it was Davros.

Why do Daleks have those lights on top of their heads, anyway? Do the Supreme Beings Of The Universe think that no-one'd take any NOTICE of them if they weren't flashing away as they shrieked 'EXTERMINATE!'? Is it out of consideration for the deaf or something?

Maybe it's for people who don't speak Dalek when the TARDIS isn't around to translate for them?

Well, for the viewer's benefit of course. Plus, I doubt if 'Dead Planet' Daleks were smart enough to figure out who was talking.

And you goota admit: they made for a wonderfully dramatic moment when they shot Lynda-with-a-y in the silence of space.

That was the best Dalek scene ever. Nothing could have been creepier or more terrifying.

Comment seen on Slashdot, explaining why Daleks don't do stairs:

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Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.

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Ah, bless!

Why do they keep "destroying the Daleks for good"? You know they're gonna be back again!

Ah, darling RTG. He just likes doing things on a grand scale. Plus it helps pass the barren months (OR YEARS) between seasons, wondering what excuse they're gonna scrape the barrel with THIS time.

OK...the Victory of the Daleks (presumably, the ENTIRE MOFFAT-ERA) Daleks are the worst ever, aren't they? Worse than the falling-apart boring grey utterly illogical 'robots' of Destiny. Worse than the Dapol army in Planet. Worse than the cardboard cut-outs in Daleks. Worse than the appalling brightly-coloured ones with fire extinguishers in the godawful Cushing movies...

It's rather annoying. Especially as AT FIRST they actually came up with something MORE adorable (sorry...terrifying) than RTG's Bronze Gods - Churchill's Ironsides.

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy's Entry on the Daleks. Cracked me up.

Funny stuff

SPOILERS FOR PANDORICA OPENS AND BIG BANG: What ON EARTH makes the Dalek assume that, because River is a Companion of the Doctor's, she won't hurt it? ('Records indicate you will show mercy. You are an associate of the Doctor's.') Which bit of Rose WIPING OUT EVERY DALEK IN EXISTENCE has just slipped its mind? Rose helping to send them all back to the Void? Ace attacking them with a baseball bat? Ian/Barbara/Susan shoving them off tall buildings AND chucking bombs at them? Martha threatening to nuke Earth to defeat them? Captain Jack blowing them to smithereens? Jo luring them into icy pools? Wilf hitting them with some paint...OK, maybe not that last one...

Well, I suppose at least the Dalek realised the Doctor actually HAD friends. Something that seemed to slip his mind when designing the ultimate-but-VERY-easy-to-open-from-the-outside prison...

Also - it's brave of the Moff to have only ONE monster in his grand finale - and a broken-down creature who BEGS FOR MERCY and can't even exterminate the Doctor properly. After this AND Victory of the Daleks, I'm beginning to suspect that he may have a secret anti-Dalek agenda...probably wants the Weeping Angels to replace 'em as Who's Top Monster.

"Also - it's brave of the Moff to have only ONE monster in his grand finale - and a broken-down creature who BEGS FOR MERCY and can't even exterminate the Doctor properly. After this AND Victory of the Daleks, I'm beginning to suspect that he may have a secret anti-Dalek agenda...probably wants the Weeping Angels to replace 'em as Who's Top Monster." - Emily

One of the best things about the two-parter was it's implications. For example, it shows us River contacting the Doctor by starting a rumor/message at the dawn of time... then implies by example that the Alliance did the same thing with the Pandorica.

And one of the best, and most subtle, implications in this one, I thought, was that in order for the Dalek to be truly scary... in order for everyone to run screaming, in order for it to exterminate te Doctor and attack in full oncoming-Dalek-you-shall-die mode... it had to be covered in rust and barnacles. In other words, to truly be intimidating... IT HAD TO LOST THE BRIGHT SHINY PLASTIC SHELL. :-) I really think that was intentional; the creators' comments on the fact that not even they like the new monstrosities... :-)

I still think the Dalek ray should have been as fatal as it was to Tennant, we should have seen the Doctor start to regenerate (but not see into whom, just the start of the process, then cut away to the next scene), and then have 11, with whatever his other self whispered to him, keep it from happening. But, ah well... the episode as written works, too. :-)

In other words, to truly be intimidating... IT HAD TO LOST THE BRIGHT SHINY PLASTIC SHELL. :-) I really think that was intentional; the creators' comments on the fact that not even they like the new monstrosities... :-)

Seconded. Not only have the darlings been turned to stone, but they were carefully shot from the front to avoid seeing those bustles, which would STILL have looked ridiculous even fossilised....

I still think the Dalek ray should have been as fatal as it was to Tennant

Well, QUITE. So I don't see why you think it's in full oncoming-Dalek-you-shall-die mode.

we should have seen the Doctor start to regenerate (but not see into whom, just the start of the process, then cut away to the next scene), and then have 11, with whatever his other self whispered to him, keep it from happening.

Of course, that would be way too similar to the Stolen Earth cliffhanger - Doc starts to regenerate, then cheats his way out of it - but would certainly have given the Daleks their punch back.

"Well, QUITE. So I don't see why you think it's in full oncoming-Dalek-you-shall-die mode." - Emily

Well, it was presented to the audience as being in that mode... until we found out the Doctor wasn't actually killed, by which time the Dalek was gone anyhow. :-)


"Of course, that would be way too similar to the Stolen Earth cliffhanger - Doc starts to regenerate, then cheats his way out of it - but would certainly have given the Daleks their punch back." - Emily
True... but as opposed to him getting out of it, it would be him keeping it from happening... which, admittedly, would still probably have felt too similar. Still, just like Turn Left, Daleks in Manhattan, 42, etc., it bugs me that regeneration is only a possibility during the epic final story of a season these days (at least in 42, he seemed to think it would happen and was warning Martha- that was a nice touch)- and in any other stories, such as the aforementioned, fatal instances (sorry, but channeling lightning through your body is probably fatal, even to the Doctor!) are either dealt with in a cartoonish manner (yes, the anvil just fell on him, but no harm done!) or in a strangely neglectful manner (ah, yes, I've just been grievously wounded, but my regeneration has a plot sensor to identify that I can simply slowly recover from this one somehow, and regeneration isn't necessary.) It'd be nice, especially in alternate universe stories like Turn Left (although clearly it wouldn't have worked in that particular one, since the Doc's absence was the whole point) where we seem him actually go through a regeneration- or start to- that 'doesn't count' from an in-series perspective. Or even say that he won't really regenerate into who he does there, because the time and circumstances of the regeneration affect who he becomes. So you can play with it, show it, realistically when he's fatally injured... as long as you find a way to undo the fatal injury.

All of which is a pipe dream, I know. It'd just be nice- especially in stories like this one, where they could do it without a permanent impact.

Perhaps regeneration would lose it's mystery and specialness if it was played with too much? It was a bit of a cheat when the hand regenerated and that was during one of those epic end-of-season stories.

True; but it also loses something, I feel like, when it's only presented as a cop-out whenever they want to change actors, whether the story rationale or amount of injury warrants it or not.

Maybe the solution is to stop doing things to the Doctor that logically ought to kill him based on previous experiences? :-)

That would require consistency AND continuity, something Who has traditionally struggled with. They can't even manage to keep Rassilon dead, never mind the Master's endless lifespan, and you think they can get the injury/regeneration relationship right? But yes, it is a cop-out when they only use it to change actors.

So in End of Time RTG was gonna have 'a Dalek Parliament, with a Dalek Minister - wise, whispery, and clever - entering into a political alliance with the Time Lords. Daleks as politicians. It was brilliant. It showed how low the Time Lords had fallen, to enter a treay with them.' BUT...BUT...because Moffat said, of Victory of the Daleks, 'Hand on my heart, I'd rather it was the Daleks' first appearance in a while, just to give us a boost after they've all seen what the New Guy looks like' RTG SACRIFICED His Whispery Dalek Politicians! God, HOW He must have wanted to commit murder when the Moff unveiled his godawful piles of plastic!

Though how in hell's name WOULD a Dalek/Time Lord Alliance work - in the middle of the Time War? Who would they be fighting? The Doctor??

This is not a joke??

Nope.

From the Moffat interview in The Brilliant Book of Doctor Who:

'The fact is, we're not going to lose the old Daleks. We're keeping them. They're coming back. We'll just use them all at once, and have different ranks. All I've done is give the Daleks an officer class' - wonderful news, but...who d'you think you're fooling? You blew those bronze darlings to smithereens! You meant to fob us off with multi-coloured abominations FOREVER! You'd hardly have called the ghastly red one 'Drone' if you'd been thinking 'officer' rather than 'footsoldier'...

'You can't have been surprised it split opinion' says the interviewer. A bit too tactfully. I've never seen fandom so united as they were over those bloated hunchbacks.

On the other hand, there's no arguing with the claim that 'the new Daleks made a considerable impact when they emerged from the Progenitor'...

The fact is, we're not going to lose the old Daleks. We're keeping them. They're coming back.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. SOMEONE obviously didn't get Victory of the Daleks' whole 'Unclean...total obliteration...disintegrate!' stuff...

There's got to be a way. They'll get blasted by a retro-ray or something....

Davros can make more! It would be nice to see the Imperial Daleks exterminate the Plastic monstrosities. They can wheel out the special weapons Dalek to do it!

As we didn't see him die that would work, although there wasn't much left of him after his last empire-building effort.

SOMEONE obviously didn't get Victory of the Daleks' whole 'Unclean...total obliteration...disintegrate!' stuff...

Obviously, the rainbow Daleks were talking about the abominations inside the shell, not the shell itself.

Reading between the lines, the rainbow daleks pre-date the RTD model. In the early days of the Time War, they scattered gene capsules across eternity, as an emergency reserve, and designed an upgraded shell, more suited for temporal warfare. Soon enough, all the rainbow daleks upgraded, becoming the RTD model, but then the wrath of the oncoming storm swept them all away.

Only an handful survived, and those only with severe genetic damage, which is why they had to resort to processing human tissue. When the old-style rainbow Daleks saw these crippled wrecks, they destroyed them, and their hopelessly contaminated shells, but that won;t stop them decanting drones into new RTD model shells, manufactured by pure Daleks, free of all contamination.

And yes, Davros will obviously be back one day, but there's every chance he'll redesign the Daleks himself, adding new refinements to their weapons, and additional safeguards to guarantee loyalty.

that won;t stop them decanting drones into new RTD model shells, manufactured by pure Daleks, free of all contamination.

But the new creatures have their very own bright-red plastic pile of •••• called 'Drone'. Why WOULD they go back to the bronze models they're obstinately refusing to admit are infinitely superior in every way?

And yes, Davros will obviously be back one day, but there's every chance he'll redesign the Daleks himself, adding new refinements to their weapons, and additional safeguards to guarantee loyalty.

If he forgot to include loyalty-safeguards in the Journey's End Daleks AFTER what his kids did to him in Genesis, I doubt the penny will EVER drop...

Why WOULD they go back to the bronze models they're obstinately refusing to admit are infinitely superior in every way?

They weren't. They were only talking about the mutants inside the bronze models - or at least that'll be the retcon.

It's like if a Haemovore turned up on your doorstep in a Rolls-Royce with five pet vampire dogs, claiming to be your grandson. You might well kill the abomination with extreme prejudice, even though it meant destroying the car you quite likes.

True...and of course the Daleks do proudly SAY they have no sense of aesthetics in Doomsday...but if the new guys (god, why hasn't anyone found an appropriately insulting nickname for them) think they're so superior, why wouldn't they want their new kids to have their swish (according to Eleven anyway, but then we all know HE has no fashion sense) new casings too?

god, why hasn't anyone found an appropriately insulting nickname for them

We did, or I think Tim did, can't remember who came up with iDalek: a multicolored, plastic fashion accessory, just like an iPod.

Oh, of course! Still, it's not QUITE devastating enough, what with iPods actually being POPULAR...I want something REALLY VICIOUS, the Dalek equivalent of all that stuff the Dream Lord was calling the Doctor...

Can't help you there; I'm just not creative enough.

Moderator's Note: Moved from the Ask the Matrix: Old Who v New Who section:

The stone Dalek was either red (drone) white (supreme) or yellow (eternal). It has a high pitched voice and apparently it's meant to be the red one as it sounds similar to the online red Daleks and the Dalek voice artist said that's the red dalek voice he will use if they speak on tv. So it was almost certainly the red one as for it's voice it sounds to me like a high pitched emperor tho i had to find it on YouTube and the quality isn;t too good so it was tough to tell.

When i was looking at wikipedia to find out about the Dalek colours I saw several publicity shots of the new Daleks every one is from the front and has them in darkness lol. Also the bbc and the nation estate argument was due to the nation estate originally wanting "unacceptable" control over Dalek appearances and scripts. I wish they'd stuck to their guns now.

BUT I just read that apparently the 2005 Daleks ARE returning and are going to fight the new ones. I don't even care what pathetic explanation the Moff comes up with for them yet again surviving they're comming back!! All is forgiven Moffat

BTW Amanda at last I found some proof as to just how little they changed throughout the original series lol. Plus it is actually quite interesting.

http://www.themindrobber.co.uk/dalek-types-drone-leader-supreme.html

To be fair to RTD the old series had earth empires rising and falling as well. There were at least two mentioned, the frontier in space to the mutants one and the Sontaran experiment one. However I agree with you knocking his failings in imagining the future. And I'm with Amanda I quite like the Invisible Enemy.

BTW Amanda at last I found some proof as to just how little they changed throughout the original series

Yes, they do look remarkably similar when lined up like that (assuming the pictures are accurate; they look suspiciously cut'n'paste), but it would have been nice if they'd included an iDalek for comparison. I think the only really noticeable change would be that hump in the back. In fact, looking at the pics, it looks like the back is the thing that's changed the most over time.

Interesting that they've had bronze-ish Daleks before. I didn't know that.

http://www.dalek6388.co.uk/day-of-the-daleks.htm

It isn't very bronze on tv it's meant to be gold (I guess their colours a bit off). It cropped up in Frontier as well.

The fender is probably in second place for most changed thing but now you mention it you're right some Daleks are straight down at the back and others not.

I suspect a silhouetted iDalek would make you cry. It would have the hump and the stupidly small head and the blockyness and would look plastic and gah. I assume it's not up there as the site hasn't been updated in a while. or maybe they're trying to pretend it doesn't exist lol.

I didn't find a strictly comparable silhouette, but this is close enough. And yes, they're awful. Guess I'll give up trying to defend them now.

Oddly, the head isn't any smaller; it's those big shoulders and hunchback. More room for the operator though.

(look at the second picture)

http://dailypop.wordpress.com/2010/05/16/the-new-dalek-paradigm-and-beyond

Glad you agree :-). You're right the head isn't smaller than the one on an old Dalek but it's on a bigger body so it's proportionally smaller, that's what i meant.

I really can't agree with him on his claims that people were skeptical of the Dalek design used in 2005. They just made it look metal, gave it a more solid look and did a few cool things to it. After all it was supposed to be the newest version of a Dalek and I bet the old guard would have given it a swiveling midsection if they'd had the money. It is supposed to be tank like so they gave it tank features.

I guess me biggest gripe about the new Daleks (apart from an overuse of flying) was that they were too invincible. I'd gotten used to a few of them being taken out in an episode. I mean the humans on platform 5 could have stopped a few more and maybe the Cybermen could have taken down a fair few, perhaps they should have given the cult a 5th member so he could be blown up by the cybermen.

I really can't agree with him on his claims that people were skeptical of the Dalek design used in 2005.

Were they? (I didn't read the article itself.) I thought they were so great I didn't even notice they weren't gray. Introducing them in darkness probably helped lessen the visual impact.

The Daleks have been so many colours in the past Silver, Grey, White that I didn't really register the colour change. having said that it might not have been the best idea to turn the daleks and all their ships bronze at the same time you turn the tardis bronze.

When i was looking at wikipedia to find out about the Dalek colours I saw several publicity shots of the new Daleks every one is from the front and has them in darkness lol.



BTW Amanda at last I found some proof as to just how little they changed throughout the original series

Yes, they do look remarkably similar when lined up like that (assuming the pictures are accurate; they look suspiciously cut'n'paste) but it would have been nice if they'd included an iDalek for comparison.

Yeah, very interesting article - especially for someone with no visual sense like myself who really NEEDS these things pointed out - but I'm sure it made our PROPER gold Dalek look too much like its predecessors. And it's criminal not to update it with the Bloats. (Still working on a suitably devastating name. But the thing that struck me looking at the picture so kindly supplied by Mandy to traumatise me is - it's not FAT. Fat can look perfectly natural and attractive sometimes. It obviously has some sort of fluid-retention problem, like the Cyberleader in Attack but MUCH more so.)

More room for the operator though.

The comfort of the operator is a matter of supreme indifference to me. They're already having the joy and honour of portraying the most evil being in the cosmos - a bit of discomfort is the LEAST they should expect. Plus, it's not as if they're CANON or anything...

I guess me biggest gripe about the new Daleks (apart from an overuse of flying)

There is no overuse of flying!

You should see the K9 series - THAT'S overuse of flying. The mutt is ALWAYS floating in mid-air as if the pavement isn't good enough for him...

was that they were too invincible. I'd gotten used to a few of them being taken out in an episode. I mean the humans on platform 5 could have stopped a few more and maybe the Cybermen could have taken down a fair few

I know the Doomsday battle seemed MUCH too one-sided, and the Gamestationers could at least have employed more successful genocidal maniacs like Anne Droid instead of firing with mere guns (and speaking of which, why the hell didn't TORCHWOOD in, say, Stolen Earth have any anti-Dalek guns) but...Daleks are SUPPOSED to be the ultimate in invincible monsters. The new series merely ensures that they FINALLY live up to their reputation (i.e. that the Doctor or Companion has to flick some REALLY IMPORTANT switches to get rid of them...).

it might not have been the best idea to turn the daleks and all their ships bronze at the same time you turn the tardis bronze.

I never thought of the TARDIS interior as bronze. Hmm. That might put it up a bit in my estimation - better than 'what is that stupid orangey colour' anyway. It did match the Dalek Captain Jack blew up rather nicely, now you mention it - it's rather a shame that the corpse mysteriously vanished from the console room rather than being kept around as a piece of modern art.

I never thought of the TARDIS interior as bronze. Hmm. That might put it up a bit in my estimation - better than 'what is that stupid orangey colour' anyway.

Presumably the interior we're talking about is the alien-stomach one, not the orange one, as the Daleks turned bronze when the series started up again. Although I'd have thought that interior was more green than bronze....

Presumably the interior we're talking about is the alien-stomach one, not the orange one, as the Daleks turned bronze when the series started up again. Although I'd have thought that interior was more green than bronze....

Well, it had that GHASTLY green time-rotor - which must have made life in the console room intolerable, making it even MORE inexplicable that everyone spent their entire time hanging out there - but if you can tear your eyes away from the sickly glow, I THINK the rest of it was orange/bronze/amber...ish.

RTD's Daleks are a bit taller so it should be ok for the operator, anyway the solution is simple, smaller operators.

I've not seen K9 but please extend those gripes to him. As for an overuse of flying the Daleks invaded London in the 1960s for real, the new lot just flew around above it. Almost as if they weren't in London and were really in Cardiff ;-). The bombing run in Manhattan alone counts as an overuse of flying, plus Doomsday I rest my case. Just because you can do something doesn't necessarily mean you should. Tho after Mahatten the flying was toned down at least.

The Daleks have always had their weaknesses, their invincibiliity waxes and wanes. I believe Destiny was the first time a gun worked on a Dalek. However they never really faced their equals or if they do they were under equipped ie the master plan and the SSS agents with sidearms. The humans of 200,000 should be the Dalek's equal expeciually as the Emperor was under equipped.

Sadly the important switch has been overused so much I think a lot of us would rather see the Daleks beaten in battle for a change. Just like the old days, if they gave future humans some energy weapons for a change that might do the trick!

Even the new control room is mostly bronze it just has a green light in the middle. Still whatever colour the bloody thing is it's very close to the Dalek's colour and not white like it should be!

I've never minded the flying thing. In fact, it would be odd if they didn't fly, it being such an obvious thing to be able to do for the "supreme beings of the universe."

As for their new-found invinciblity, perhaps that's to make up for the loss of various omnipotent beings like the Guardians and Eternals. And Time Lords, for that matter.

The bombing run in Manhattan alone counts as an overuse of flying

Anything that adds even a smidgen of excitement to bloody Daleks in Manhattan is to be welcomed, though of course you're absolutely right, the WHOLE POINT of the metal meanies hanging around this barbaric useless era was because THEY WERE SO SHORT OF ENERGY. Unnecessarily swooping around to scare some local peasants is a TOTAL waste of energy.

plus Doomsday I rest my case.

OF COURSE Doomsday had to have millions of flying Daleks! Have you no SOUL?

Tho after Mahatten the flying was toned down at least.

Yeah - the current ones are probably too obese to get off the ground.

The humans of 200,000 should be the Dalek's equal expeciually as the Emperor was under equipped.

There was (for a change) an explanation for the 200,000 CE humans being so ill-equipped - nearly a century of the Jagrafess dragging our society backwards, followed by total worldwide collapse (thanks, Doc) followed by a century of game shows...

Sadly the important switch has been overused so much I think a lot of us would rather see the Daleks beaten in battle for a change.

Fair enough. Even I'm not denying RTG loved his Deus ex Machina switches/levers MUCH too much.

if they gave future humans some energy weapons for a change that might do the trick!

Quite. And not just against Daleks. Surely you could slice a Weeping Angel in half with a decent energy-weapon, no problem?

I've never minded the flying thing. In fact, it would be odd if they didn't fly, it being such an obvious thing to be able to do for the "supreme beings of the universe."

ESPECIALLY after Tom mocked them for being unable to chase him up a ventilation shaft...you just KNOW all Dalek scientists would be put to work on levitation forthwith.

I've seen the example of the energy shaft touted a lot but It's simply inaccurate. The problem wasn't that it was off the ground it was too small for them to squeeze through.

I'd have preferred millions of gliding Daleks tbh. And even in Doomsday they didn't fly much, there were shots of daleks attacking the Valiant (don't they have fighters for that?) but the rest of the invasion showed them fighting on the ground for a change.

You are right there was an explanation about the 200,000 humans being ill equipped and their bullets would have worked on a pre time war Dalek but they could have had them being a bit more useful. And the humans of 200,000 should have been so far ahead persuading them bullets were a good idea should have been like persuading us to go back to clubs.

Actually modern rifles would slice a weeping angel in half pretty nicely, the church soldiers were carrying dressed up P90s. A modern P90 would go through an angel with enough bullets. And when I say enough bullets maybe half a clip or so. So the whole bullets don't work bit in doctor who is often flawed. The novelisation of Spearhead from Space for example had the UNIT soldiers fighting Auntons with SMGs and explosives in the factory battle and they were using the SMG's to cut them in half

"I'd have preferred millions of gliding Daleks tbh." - Danny21

Might I recommend City of the Daleks, the adventure game, then? :-) Sure, they're new technicolor Daleks, but... in a video game, it doesn't seem to matter as much. :-)


"Actually modern rifles would slice a weeping angel in half pretty nicely, the church soldiers were carrying dressed up P90s. A modern P90 would go through an angel with enough bullets." - Danny21

Wouldn't that depend on the actual composition of the stone/material that they become?

Yeah I've seen ads for the game. Isn't it a free online thing in wich case maybe they should have saved their money as they had a budget cut. Or they could have made another ep.

You know u never actually thought about what kind of stone they turn into. Looks like it's time for energy weapons then.

Sorry that should say "I never considered" typo lol.

I just read that RTD's Daleks were designed so they'd be eye to eye with Rose, and the new lot are supposed to be eye to eye with Smith.

THE DALEK'S DO NOT REVOLVE AROUND THE MAIN CHARACTERS!! As in their look. I know it doesn't really matter but I find it a bad mindset for a link in a chain.

Presumably that means they'll change again when we get a new Doctor.

I think when the old fight the new the old schould bring back the special weapons Dalek. And have it talk, it was called the abomination in the novelisation and pyscopathic even compared to the other Daleks have it talk and say soemthign really insane. "Dalek smash" or soemthing cool in an hulk esq voice.

Dan, what is with this Dalek fixation of yours. It seems every post you've made lately has something to do with Daleks, or in Dalek centered episodes.

Dude, there is more to Who than Daleks!

Daniel Philips - I just read that RTD's Daleks were designed so they'd be eye to eye with Rose, and the new lot are supposed to be eye to eye with Smith.
I'm now imagining two Daleks, side by side, one designed to be eye to eye with Pertwee & one designed to be eye to eye with McCoy. *snicker*

And have it talk, it was called the abomination in the novelisation and pyscopathic even compared to the other Daleks have it talk and say soemthign really insane.
"I say, chaps, why don't we discuss our differences over a spot of tea instead of fighting, eh, what?"

;-)

Just an idle thought, but I was talking with my nephew about the Daleks & some of the old stories he hasn't seen and I mentioned the Mechanoids and thought maybe the iDaleks, since they are fatter than other Daleks, were some kind of hybrid between Daleks & Mechanoids?

Or we could blame it on a Movellan virus....

The Dalek obsession is because I just watched, The Daleks, both Dalek Movies and The Chase. So I had a lot of thoughts on the Daleks recently and am also celebrating the fact that I have now watched every surviving Dalek story and listened to the destroyed eps.

I was thinking special weapons Dalek talking being more along the lines of "DESTROY ROARRRRR"

You need give no excuses for your Dalek obsession! A Dalek obsession is a good and healthy thing! (And what if Davros had succeeded with the Reality Bomb, eh, Tim? You wouldn't be so 'other-things-in-life' THEN!)

I was just discussing Daleks with a friend this weekend, looking at an art-of-the-novels (the fellow who painted all of the novelization covers) and seeing ye olde red Dalek (Supreme?)- which it seemed that no one had an objection to. After some discussion, we agreed that we don't dislike the new Daleks due to color scheme (well... not solely on color scheme), but because of their look- like Eccleston in 'Rose,' we are simply "Anti-plastic." :-)

You're right the colours and names aren't a bad idea just their hideous shape. And also their texture, the RTD one's looked like they were made of metal instead of plastic.

Also these ones are missing the slats on the neck that pick up power. You know a staple feature since the chase 35 years ago!

No, the colors are hideous, too. They're the first thing you notice, then they turn around and you see the hump, but by then your jaw can't drop any farther.

The colours wouldn't be so bad if they were metalic colours, actually the first thing I noticed was how bad the slats where the operrator looks out were. Tbh the whole things was too much to do in one go.

Red and blue they might have got away with, if they'd been darker and gleamingly metallic and slatted and non-hunchbacked etc etc etc...but there's just something so fundamentally WRONG about an orange or yellow Dalek.

Mmmmm... gleaming metallic red and blue... yum.

The orange and yellow Daleks work on building sites so they have to be high vis lol. You're right tho there's nothign wrong with gold Daleks.

God. The plastic daffodil-coloured Daleks were such an abomination that it never even OCCURRED to be that if they were darker and gleamingly metallic they'd be...er...gold.

Well, that's entirely understandable- who on Earth would ever look at those plastic abominations and instinctively think "Yeah, these are salvageable!"...? :-)

Not me, that's for sure. I'm finally pointing and screaming 'KILL! KILL!' (exactly like you SHOULD do when faced by a Dalek).

Come to think of it...if you really WERE engaged in a battle-for-all-creation with the Lords of Time, then sending out miniature Noah's Arks makes perfect sense. But drastically redesigning your race to be even more deadly but ONLY sticking that paradigm in the arks but not the battle-production-lines, even though you could churn 'em out in two minutes' flat - WHY...? (And what sort of Dalek focus group came up with those COLOURS, anyway...?)

Daleks don't care about aesthetics. They probably just picked a random set of clearly distinct colours, implying it's only the luck of the draw they didn't end up as cream, canary yellow, lime green, sky blue, and hot pink. Of course, anyone who sniggered at a pink Dalek would get exterminated, but then so would everyone who managed to avoid laughing.

Perhaps it's psychological warfare- as opposed to chanting "I am you SER-vant!", these new Daleks can throw potential opponents off-gaurd by NOT APPEARING AT ALL THREATENING IN ANY WAY... at least until they turn you into a photo-negative/see-through being, by which time it's too late. Just another appear-less-threatening tactic. (Actually... we could explain a lot about the Daleks that way. The Dalek who threw himself overboard in the Chase? Just doing his part to see that the Daleks were underestimated by foes. Those Daleks picked up and thrown in Dalek Invasion of Earth? Just luring the humans into a false sense of security for the re-conquering.) :-)

That would explain a lot about a LOT of monsters. Why the Sontarans got shorter and shorter. Why the Cybermen pretended to be utterly traumatised by the very sight of GOLD! when they could happily wander round the interior of Voga for hours. Why the Angels politely ignored Amy stumbling round the forest with her eyes closed. Why the Auton-brides took half an hour to fail to shoot Jackie...

Ah well at least the Moff has acknowledged his mistake. Bad luck mate you just wasted millions of license payers money, alienated your fans, wasted time and effort on the new monstrosities, and you need to build yet more Daleks to appease your fanbase. Stick to what you do best, make new monsters don't re imagine the old one's. 2 out of 3 have been an epic fail and the 3rd (cybermen) just weren't a credible villain.

Emily:Why the Auton-brides took half an hour to fail to shoot Jackie...

And here I thought they were showing how evil they could really be....

Why the Sontarans got shorter and shorter.

Actually, they had a serious growth spurt in The Two Doctors.

Then again...you could very easily argue that those were from the Troughton era.

Why the Sontarans got shorter and shorter.

Hey! George, the midget Sontaran was great!

Alien Bodies: 'Qixolt remembered how the guest room he'd prepared for the Daleks had looked. The room had been black, the walls covered with bumps and nodules Qixotl hadn't understood the purpose of at all. He'd hoped, really really hoped, they hadn't been anything to do with sex' - is this the only mention of Dalek sex in the whole of Who? Surely if they could reproduce though sex they wouldn't convert all those humans or be grown from Davros's flesh or whatever?

Sex is a way of having children different from you, an idea which would be abhorrent to Daleks. They may still have sex hormones, filling them with primitive urges, but that just had more fuel to their omnicidal hatred. Instead of sex, they doubtless clone themselves, guaranteeing that the next generation is a perfect copy of their supposed perfection.

Ah so that's what's wrong with the Daleks they just need to get laid so they can chill the heck out lol.

EX-TER-MIN-ATE! EX-TER- *YAWN* FEEL-ING SLEEP-Y! EX-TER-MIN-ATE LAT-ER! ZZZZZZZZ...

Maybe it's working the other way.

I doubt Davros gave them anything to get laid with!!!

I-M IN THE MOOD FOR -OH CRUD!! I FOR-GOT!!!

EX-TER-MIN-ATE!EX-TER-MIN-ATE!

It would explain so much.

IF The Moff is to be believed, the Daleks are taking a break this year (bloody good idea, frankly):

'There's a problem with the Daleks...They are the most famous of the Doctor's adversaries and the most frequent, which means they are the most reliably defeatable enemies in the universe. They have been defeated by the Doctor about 400 times. Surely they should just see the Tardis approaching, say, 'Oh. It's him again', and trudge away.'

I'm glad he's resting them to be honest. they were getting droll and overused and, in their latest incarnation, hideous to look at. There are plenty of Who monsters to draw on for future stories. How about we bring back Alpha Centauri and The Ice Warriors????? Maybe give the Zarbi another shake...ok, stop laughing....

I can't help but wonder how much the 'rest' has come about because His Moffness believes that they need a rest, and how much is a result of the savage negative reaction to the nuDaleks.

There are plenty of Who monsters to draw on for future stories. How about we bring back Alpha Centauri and The Ice Warriors????? Maybe give the Zarbi another shake...ok, stop laughing....

Ice Warriors, yes - I can't BELIEVE they haven't made a re-appearance (especially given the STORY SET ON MARS). Zarbi, fine - I find insects scary as hell, and I'm sure that the miracle of modern technology can ensure no cameras get bumped into. But Alpha Centauri...no. Just...no. (And, let's face it, if RTG didn't resurrect the hermaphrodite...no one will.)

I can't help but wonder how much the 'rest' has come about because His Moffness believes that they need a rest, and how much is a result of the savage negative reaction to the nuDaleks.

AND how much is due to whatever extortionate sum the Terry Nation Estate is wringing from the BBC...

It's just this series that will be Dalek-free. They could easily be back in the Christmas special... probably hanging from a tree.

Who else has seen this thing about the Moff giving the Dalek's a rest as they've been overused. To be fair he has a point they have been brought out for 5 of the 6 new series (to be fair they weren't in the specials either, well there was the cameo but that doesn't count). But compared to the years between their appearances in the old series their appearances are pretty frequent now. Almost as if the new series wasn't strong enough to survive on its own merit but that's all charted out in a year's worth of arguments on the new vs old page lol.

Personally i think he's just making excuses and he's either saving money to build more proper Daleks or he's hoping we'll forget just how bad the plastic monstrosities are, we won't. It must be that you don't bring them back in a 'grand' way (well that's what he was trying to do) to hide them away instantly.

Also "defeated about 400 times" way off Moff even including the EU, poor show for an ascended fan.

I suspect that "about 400 times" might be an exaggeration for comic effect.

Frankly, I can do without the Daleks for a while. They were being grossly overused as their repeated resurrections became more and more improbable.

Yeah isn;t that why the Moff finally brought them back for good? Then he messed it up lol.

Yeah isn;t that why the Moff finally brought them back for good?

Yup, I seem to remember that was the justification for naming that particular story - NOT having to pretend they were all dead at the end was apparently the Dalek definition of 'victory'...

Kate in New Series: Season Six: A Good Man Goes to War thread: The problem is that in between the first Dalek story and the second, the production team have worked out that they can bring back the Daleks as popular, regular monsters and the whole rationale of the original is thrown out. In Terry Nation's original pitch they aren't even villains - the story ends with them making peace with the Thals!

You - have - GOT - to - be - joking.

No joke. The original outline ends with the Daleks and Thals uniting with a third species to rebuild Skaro.

Doctor Who would have been very different, wouldn't it?

Well the Dalek's got everything they wanted out of Victory. They were probably about as indifferent to the doc saving the android with love as me lol. Plus the doc didn't foil their plans. That's a first, and in the new series not being totally wiped out by the end of the story has become an achievement lol.

Oh, I dunno - the Daleks wanted to blow up Earth pretty badly, AND they must have known that leaving the Doctor alive would result in inevitable defeat for all their future plans of universal conquest and/or destruction...

I was working at a transport fair the other day that had a Dalek there (don't ask why). And a kid was playing with it and he mentioned that it had bullet proof armour and I said something that made me feel pretty old " it wasn't bullet proof when I was your age".

Whilst that's not strictly true as I was only 1 when the series ended and I don't think any old series Dalek stories were made in my lifetime it still made me think.

I don't remember bullets ever taking out Daleks. Hats over the eyestalks and pushing them over, yes, but actual weapons? Well, there were some stick-on explosives, but I think that's about it.

Bastic bullets took out Dalek's in Revelations and one's eyestalk was destroyed by gunfire in Resurrection. And they were blown up by bazookas in Remembrance. Plus there was that one Dalek blinded in Bad wolf (really RTD would it have cost so much to make one eyestalk to destroy). Plus UNIT had bullets that would go through Daleks in battlefield amoungst other advancements.

The list of effective guns includes Movellan guns, their own weapons, Dalek Tommy guns, Jack's cobbled together style and Movellan flame weapons. Pretty sure there are other weapons that work but it's dinner time lol.

Mechanoid flame weapons that is.

Moderator's Note: Moved from Novels: Eleventh Doctor: Touched by an Angel section:

ROBERT: [Daleks] can't imagine anything they haven't experienced

Oh, nonsense. They've OBVIOUSLY spent a lot of time imagining a) conquering Earth, and b) exterminating the Doctor. (Admittedly in the latter case they DO usually seem too overcome to put all their dreams into practice and actually EXTERMINATE the guy instead of just shrieking about it. Oh, OK, you have a point.)

They've OBVIOUSLY spent a lot of time imagining a) conquering Earth, and b) exterminating the Doctor.

But they've conquered lots of planets and exterminated lots of people before, so that requires minimal imagination. Still, they are military genius, so I'll concede they may have imagination enough for that.

What they can't do is imagine what the universe would be like after they won. Logic tells them they'll be the only living things, but comprehending what that means takes imagination and Daleks only know endless war. That's what Davros designed them for, and that's all they're capable of.

They've OBVIOUSLY spent a lot of time imagining a) conquering Earth, and b) exterminating the Doctor.

But they've conquered lots of planets and exterminated lots of people before, so that requires minimal imagination.

But exterminating THE DOCTOR...that requires LOADS more imagination than any Dalek (bar that metal GIT in Stolen Earth) is capable of.

What they can't do is imagine what the universe would be like after they won.

But the big red enhanced Dalek-boss must have been able to picture it. So why did HE go along with it?

Also, Daleks have split into civil warring factions before now - I'm not sure if 'imagination' is exactly the right description of what they'd need to rebel like that, but it'll do.

that requires LOADS more imagination than any Dalek (bar that metal GIT in Stolen Earth) is capable of.

They just have to imagine pointing and shooting, not exactly difficult.

But the big red enhanced Dalek-boss must have been able to picture it.

Not necessarily. Plenty of people have spent their lives plotting and scheming to reach the top, without any idea what to do when they get there. There's half the politicians for a start, and all the people trying to get into heaven who have no comprehension of what eternity means. There are very few things that wouldn't get boring after a trillion trillion years - cats, of course, but there wouldn't be any cats in human heaven (they'd have their own, with rivers of double cream and regular rains of fresh fish.)

If people can be that blind, Daleks certainly can.

Also, Daleks have split into civil warring factions before now

Only when Davros got involved. He has no shortage of imagination.

They just have to imagine pointing and shooting, not exactly difficult.

Well, I have LOADS more imagination than a Dalek, and I can't BEGIN to imagine pointing and shooting at THE DOCTOR!

And given that they actually target-practice on little imitation TARDISes (Death to the Daleks) the Daleks obviously need some practice with this concept too.

But the big red enhanced Dalek-boss must have been able to picture it.

Not necessarily. Plenty of people have spent their lives plotting and scheming to reach the top, without any idea what to do when they get there.

True, but if, say, George W Bush had suggested wiping out every universe ever I think even Tony Blair might not have just gone along with it.

And don't forget the Dalek art in The Daleks. They're not as devoid of imagination as they seem.

there wouldn't be any cats in human heaven (they'd have their own, with rivers of double cream and regular rains of fresh fish.)

But what use would THOSE be without humans to worship them?!

Also, Daleks have split into civil warring factions before now

Only when Davros got involved.

Not in Evil of the Daleks he wasn't.

He has no shortage of imagination.

He must have if he didn't programme the Daleks with any loyalty to him. Plus he didn't even believe in life on other planets! What a cretin.

I can't BEGIN to imagine pointing and shooting at THE DOCTOR!

That's because you adore him. Daleks don't.

And don't forget the Dalek art in The Daleks. They're not as devoid of imagination as they seem.

Those Daleks have quite a few other differences too, and were wiped out without survivors. Besides, the Doctor is quite clear they have no imagination.

But what use would THOSE be without humans to worship them?!

Presumably, the angels would be able to pamper them quite effectively. Christian theology is quite clear that you don't get into human heaven without worshipping Jesus, and no cat would ever deign to worship anything other than itself.

Not in Evil of the Daleks he wasn't.

True. That civil war was the Doctor's fault. Are there any examples that didn't involve outside interference, or the cult of Skaro, who were permitted an imagination.

He must have if he didn't programme the Daleks with any loyalty to him. Plus he didn't even believe in life on other planets! What a cretin.

His imagination was certainly limited in some respects, but designing the Daleks required a lot of twisted creativity, and once he met the Doctor he had no trouble stretching his imagination round the wider universe.

I can't BEGIN to imagine pointing and shooting at THE DOCTOR!

That's because you adore him. Daleks don't.

Yeah, but I can't even begin to imagine pointing and shooting at the SIXTH Doctor!

Smashing his head into the TARDIS console so he'll be forced to regenerate, yes. But doing the 'look him in the eye, pull the trigger, end his life' thing...I DON'T think so.

Those Daleks have quite a few other differences too, and were wiped out without survivors.

Ha ha ha ha ha! Just like the fifty billion other times the metal meanies have been wiped out without survivors...

Besides, the Doctor is quite clear they have no imagination.

Yeah, but then he also made it quite clear six billion people would die if the Titanic crashed into Earth...

Anyway, has he ever sat down and had a chat with a Dalek? A NORMAL Dalek? It's an inexcusible omission, even if none of them exactly invited him on a Blon-like date. Maybe it would help him get his story straight - about whether they were green bubbling lumps of hate (McCoy) or had had all emotions removed (Eccy).

Presumably, the angels would be able to pamper them quite effectively.

Angels have wings. Oochies LIKE pouncing on things that have wings. The angels might be FAR too busy trying to protect themselves to cherish the oochies properly. They need ME. I DEMAND to be let into cat heaven.

Are there any examples that didn't involve outside interference, or the cult of Skaro, who were permitted an imagination.

There MIGHT be. We just wouldn't hear about a Dalek civil war unless the Doctor was poking his nose in.

His imagination was certainly limited in some respects, but designing the Daleks required a lot of twisted creativity

According to the Davros audio, the most imaginative thing HE could think of was making peace with the Thals - he nicked the 'Dalek' idea from a colleague.

and once he met the Doctor he had no trouble stretching his imagination round the wider universe.

THAT'S true. Fastest u-turn in history. He went from 'No life on other planets!' to 'My Daleks will conquer the universe!' in two seconds flat.

But doing the 'look him in the eye, pull the trigger, end his life' thing...I DON'T think so.

But how many people could you imagine doing that to, in cold blood? Only the worst of the worst, no doubt - serial killers, child rapists, kitten torturers - since you are presumably no psychopath. Daleks, on the other hand, live to kill. Life means nothing to them.

Just like the fifty billion other times the metal meanies have been wiped out without survivors...

There weren't any Daleks on Skaro during Planet of the Daleks, not when the the Thals had a space-faring civilisation based there, so they must have been wiped out at some point, which only the Doctor could manage. (The only other people competent enough are a few of the Doctor's ex companions, and none of them are likely to have visited Skaro solo). The Doctor's first visit si the obvious time for that.

Maybe it would help him get his story straight - about whether they were green bubbling lumps of hate (McCoy) or had had all emotions removed (Eccy).

There's no inconsistency there. Obviously, Davros removed all capacity for emotion, creating a blank canvas, then painted it with hatred and rage.

Angels have wings

Some angels have wings. Others look like giant levitating doughnuts with 10,000 eyes, according to all the best theologians, and that's not the strangest they get. However, they're also said to be quite capable of disguising themselves as humans - the cats in heaven would get fed by what looked like 6 year old girls with ribbons in their hair, and eyes glowing with white fire. We wouldn't get near the place - as a reasonably virtuous non-Christian, at best we'd probably end up in Limbo, with Aristotle and Archimedes, were it real, which luckily it isn't.

There MIGHT be. We just wouldn't hear about a Dalek civil war unless the Doctor was poking his nose in.

Anything might happen when the Doctor's not looking, but until we see it on screen, or in print, it's not real.

he nicked the 'Dalek' idea from a colleague.

Including all the engineering details? Any mad scientist can come up with the idea of putting a naked brain inside a miniature tank, but putting the idea into practice is a different story.

But doing the 'look him in the eye, pull the trigger, end his life' thing...I DON'T think so.

But how many people could you imagine doing that to, in cold blood? Only the worst of the worst, no doubt - serial killers, child rapists, kitten torturers - since you are presumably no psychopath.

I do have a worryingly long list. For a (hopefully) non-psychopath.

Daleks, on the other hand, live to kill. Life means nothing to them.

I'm not convinced that's true. Whch is why I find their aims in Stolen Earth/Journey's End...surprising. Have you EVER seen ANYONE have such good, harmless FUN as those German-speaking Daleks in that very story?

There weren't any Daleks on Skaro during Planet of the Daleks, not when the the Thals had a space-faring civilisation based there, so they must have been wiped out at some point

Not necessarily. I mean, sure, it would make LOGICAL sense, but what about Skaro has EVER made logical sense? And the Seventh Doctor would have a LOT of egg on his face if it turned out the Hand of Omega wiped out a planet full of Thals. Supposing the Daleks and Thals were living in cities a few hundred miles away - rather than within easy wheelchair distance of each other, with a connecting secret tunnel for maximum convenience - they might BOTH have built up space-faring civilisations without spotting each other.

The Doctor's first visit si the obvious time for that.

I disagree. Notwithstanding the pathologically insane claim that the Daleks in Dalek Invasion of Earth were from an earlier (!) time than the Dead Planet ones...they were OBVIOUSLY later and more advanced specimins. Either Hartnell and his army of wimps screwed up the genocide or there were other Dalek cities about the place he never noticed.

Maybe it would help him get his story straight - about whether they were green bubbling lumps of hate (McCoy) or had had all emotions removed (Eccy).

There's no inconsistency there. Obviously, Davros removed all capacity for emotion, creating a blank canvas, then painted it with hatred and rage.

But that's not what Eccy's implying when he says 'You may have had all your emotions removed but I reckon there's one small spark of emotion left - FEAR! Doesn't it just burn, when you face me' (or words to that effect).

We just wouldn't hear about a Dalek civil war unless the Doctor was poking his nose in.

Anything might happen when the Doctor's not looking, but until we see it on screen, or in print, it's not real.

But the fact that the Daleks gave the Master a trial, and the Doc turned up to collect his ashes and got away suggests, at the very least, some SERIOUS factionalisation is going on.

he nicked the 'Dalek' idea from a colleague.

Including all the engineering details?

I think so. Shan was brilliant though not, of course, brilliant enough to foresee Davros nicking her ideas and having her executed.

Huh. Someone by the name of Rob Hull has got into the Guiness Book of Records for his collection of 571 Daleks. 571! And not ONE of them has exterminated him!

They haven't exterminated him, yet.

What are they waiting for, Christmas?!

They haven't even enslaved him and made him dig a hole to the centre of the Earth or ANYTHING!

Presumably, none of them have bubbling lumps of hate inside, yet. Rob will need to extract a few naked human brains, and stick them inside the chassis before he gets his own private world-conquering army. Of course, judging by the newspapers, not everyone is quite that deranged, just every third person, so we might get lucky.

On the other hand, if you can find this Rob Hull, and keep your brain inside your skull, you might get to see the day saved by a mysterious wandering stranger. Care to risk it?

Have you EVER seen ANYONE have such good, harmless FUN as those German-speaking Daleks in that very story?

Harmless? It was sheer sadism, advancing the Dalek cause not one jot.

sure, it would make LOGICAL sense, but what about Skaro has EVER made logical sense?

Occam's razor - go for the most parsimonious explanation. If you throw logic out of the window, the Thals might all have been robots occupied by miniature cat-people from the 235th century, while the original Kaleds except davros had all been replaced by Zygons, Davros himself actually being a future regeneration of the Rani.

Do you really want to go there?

they might BOTH have built up space-faring civilisations without spotting each other.

Well, they might just notice when the other lot put a satellite up, something difficult for a space-faring civilisation to overlook.

'You may have had all your emotions removed but I reckon there's one small spark of emotion left

Then maybe the Doctor noticed something different about this latest batch of Daleks. The Tardis is telapthic; she can probably tell him whether the Daleks are radiating hatred, fear, or omnicidal fury, and if she doesn't feel helpful there's always the sonic screwdriver, and the Doctor's own psychic abilities.

Either Hartnell and his army of wimps screwed up the genocide or there were other Dalek cities about the place he never noticed.

Or there were other Daleks off-planet. They're not exactly going to be sentimental about their home planet. I can see them abandoning Skaro as a worthless lump of rock, all its resources consumed by the 1000 year war, and setting off to conquer the stars, leaving behind only those near-obsolete Daleks unsuited to life outside the city.


But the fact that the Daleks gave the Master a trial, and the Doc turned up to collect his ashes and got away suggests, at the very least, some SERIOUS factionalisation is going on.

Not really. That's been explained as a deal with the Time Lords, in the run up to the Time War. They handed the Master over to Skaro in exchange for promises not to fight Gallifrey, which doesn't require Dalek factionalisation, just a High Council that believes in appeasement.

Even if Davros stole the idea for the Daleks, that still leaves all his other inventions, and his twisted plots. Davros can be quite creative, when it comes to sinister manipulation.

Incidentally, perhaps the last half dozen entries might be better off on the Dalek page.

Have you EVER seen ANYONE have such good, harmless FUN as those German-speaking Daleks in that very story?

Harmless? It was sheer sadism, advancing the Dalek cause not one jot.

But it MIGHT have done. If only they'd spotted that Martha Jones, they could have exterminated her, removing any risk that she'd mess up their plans by blowing Earth sky-high.

And also pleasing an enormous number of Who Fans no end.

If you throw logic out of the window, the Thals might all have been robots occupied by miniature cat-people from the 235th century

No cat-person would have been so wimpish. Or sexist.

while the original Kaleds except davros had all been replaced by Zygons, Davros himself actually being a future regeneration of the Rani.

Do you really want to go there?

*Backs slowly away from Robert* No, no, mercy, please! Not the Rani!

Well, they might just notice when the other lot put a satellite up, something difficult for a space-faring civilisation to overlook.

A secret tunnel joining their two at-war-for-a-millennium cities would also be difficult to overlook, but bless 'em, they managed it.

'You may have had all your emotions removed but I reckon there's one small spark of emotion left

Then maybe the Doctor noticed something different about this latest batch of Daleks.

Hmm. That's true, they're definitely different from most Daleks. It's just that why the hell would the God-Emperor have removed all emotions if he wanted them to worship him? God-bothering isn't intellectual, it's emotion all the way...

Either Hartnell and his army of wimps screwed up the genocide or there were other Dalek cities about the place he never noticed.

Or there were other Daleks off-planet. They're not exactly going to be sentimental about their home planet. I can see them abandoning Skaro as a worthless lump of rock, all its resources consumed by the 1000 year war, and setting off to conquer the stars, leaving behind only those near-obsolete Daleks unsuited to life outside the city.

Good point.

It's surprising they didn't just exterminate the obsolete losers but hey, maybe not all Daleks are as BLOODY STUPID as the bright plastic hunchbacked abominations.

But the fact that the Daleks gave the Master a trial, and the Doc turned up to collect his ashes and got away suggests, at the very least, some SERIOUS factionalisation is going on.

Not really. That's been explained as a deal with the Time Lords, in the run up to the Time War. They handed the Master over to Skaro in exchange for promises not to fight Gallifrey, which doesn't require Dalek factionalisation, just a High Council that believes in appeasement.

That's been explained by WHO? WHEN?

Even if Davros stole the idea for the Daleks, that still leaves all his other inventions

What other inventions...?

and his twisted plots. Davros can be quite creative, when it comes to sinister manipulation.

And yet somehow he KEEPS forgetting to programme the Daleks with any loyalty to him...

Incidentally, perhaps the last half dozen entries might be better off on the Dalek page.

I knoooooooooooooooooooooow! I was just so happy there was actually a conversation going on in the Novels section for the first time in millennia! Now the Novels have dipped below 4,000! Still, looking on the bright side the Monsters only have eight more posts to go before they FINALLY overtake those Doctors...

But it MIGHT have done. If only they'd spotted that Martha Jones, they could have exterminated her

So they were flying around, hoping they would get lucky? That doesn't sound very Dalek.

A secret tunnel joining their two at-war-for-a-millennium cities would also be difficult to overlook, but bless 'em, they managed it.

Secret tunnels are designed to be hard to spot; most satellites aren't.

It's just that why the hell would the God-Emperor have removed all emotions if he wanted them to worship him?

You could get your computer to chant 'The Doctor is hope incarnate and Emily his destined one true love; sing hosanna to their glory' on a continuous loop. It wouldn't actually believe what it was saying, but it might well make you feel good about yourself.

The Dalek Emperor, which wasn't quite as sane as you, might have done much the same with its Daleks, then ended up believing it was all real.

That's been explained by WHO? WHEN?

One of the annuals had a line about a restitution treaty.

What other inventions...?

There's the Kaled dome, and the counter agent used to destroy it.

And yet somehow he KEEPS forgetting to programme the Daleks with any loyalty to him...

He reprogrammed some of the Daleks in Resurrection into working for him, and by Remembrance had a whole empire full of completely loyal Daleks.

So they were flying around, hoping they would get lucky? That doesn't sound very Dalek.

It sounds pretty Dalek to ME.

Except that usually they're patrolling corridors rather than flying, but it comes to the same thing.

Secret tunnels are designed to be hard to spot; most satellites aren't.

I'm sure the Thals would have the sense to make their satellites hard to spot.

Well, FAIRLY sure...

You could get your computer to chant 'The Doctor is hope incarnate and Emily his destined one true love; sing hosanna to their glory' on a continuous loop.

Oooh, oooh! HOW?

It wouldn't actually believe what it was saying, but it might well make you feel good about yourself.

There was no evidence the Daleks DIDN'T feel real indignation when they were shrieking 'DO NOT BLASPHEME!' and suchlike. It would have been pretty stupid of the God-Emperor to programme them with imitation feelings when he could just as easily have given them the real thing.

And they certainly seemed to trust their God with their lives, even when it was doing a recklessly stupid 'Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough' to the Doctor.

One of the annuals had a line about a restitution treaty.

I KNEW I had to read more of those stupid things...

What other inventions...?

There's the Kaled dome, and the counter agent used to destroy it.

Oh yeah. THOSE.

Except that usually they're patrolling corridors rather than flying, but it comes to the same thing.

Not really. There, they're patrolling their own territory, straightforward security. It's the difference between the UK police patrolling London, and the same police running round Paris, hitting the French with their truncheons while on duty, which might raise a few eyebrows.

I'm sure the Thals would have the sense to make their satellites hard to spot.

Why, if they think they're the only civilisation on the planet? Also, things like GPS and satellite TV are impossible to hide; to work, they have to broadcast to everyone.

It would have been pretty stupid of the God-Emperor to programme them with imitation feelings when he could just as easily have given them the real thing.

Would it have been as easy, and would the God-Emperor really care about the difference? He was insane, and most attempts at programming with emotions in the Who-verse end badly: remember Boss? The Emperor Dalek wouldn't care if all it's subjects were insane, of course, but it has to the right kind of insanity. I'm pretty sure it doesn't want Daleks who, drive mad by their emotions, declare themselves supreme ruler of the cosmos and try to kill their Emperor.

Would the Doctor really melodramatically describe an injured and helpless (and bright plastic) Dalek-dome as 'The face of the devil himself'? He KNOWS what the face of the devil is like - he saw it in Satan Pit.

ROBERT (in Doctors: General Discussion): What would a Dalek know of love? Can you imagine Daleks quoting sappy poetry to one another, feeding each other titbits by the light of a burning moon? "Look, Darling, I've arranged the corpses to spell out an ode to your plunger."

THAT is officially the Best Idea EVER. You have GOT to write the next Dalek story. Let's face it, the metal morons have been SERIOUSLY over-used in both Old and New Who (AND the audios though not, mercifully, the novels) and yet NO ONE has explored their CULTURE. Their SOCIETY. Their interaction with each other when they're NOT exterminating people. And yet we have CLEAR PROOF that they HAD a culture: that statue that those philistines the Doctor, Ian, Barbara and Susan hurled on top of them in their VERY FIRST STORY. (Plus the fact no one asked what the hell they'd be DOING for the rest of eternity post-Journey's End.)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/8913891/BBC-develop-model-Dalek-that-can-be-controlled-by-your-television.html

Aren't Daleks real enough ALREADY? Do people REALLY THINK the Daleks won't get them just because they're on-screen?

From Gallifrey Base:

A Dalek lent its aid towards 'exterminating' prejudice and inequalities at Sunderland College. Joe Leggett, director of learning support, said: "We were trying to think of a creative way of explaining diversity and engaging with the students. In Dr Who, the Daleks have a very hierarchical society, with prejudices within their ranks based on their colour."

That's just BLATANT SLANDER of innocent Daleks!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-16214708

Check this out.

As for how the Dalek's survived the first destruction it was explained that those were Kaled mutants inhabiting Davros's early protypes, the ones seen in Genesis dug out of the bunker and went out into space leaving the ones seen in the Dalek's behind. The Thal's lived there for a bit before having to abandon their home when the Dalek's returned.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-16214708

The humiliation of the universe's master-race is now complete...

As for how the Dalek's survived the first destruction it was explained that those were Kaled mutants inhabiting Davros's early protypes, the ones seen in Genesis dug out of the bunker and went out into space leaving the ones seen in the Dalek's behind.

Explained by whom?

Of course, THAT would make a lot more sense than the First Doctor's claim that the Dalek Invasion of Earth ones were from millions of years before the events of The Daleks...

The Thal's lived there for a bit before having to abandon their home when the Dalek's returned.

Planet of the Daleks gave me the impression they remained on Skaro for a lot longer than a BIT.

It was explained during 30 years of despair by the BBC.

A few hundred or thousand years is a bit in a series that takes place over trillions of years. But yeah you're right it was generations.

By the way, the Dalek TARDIS-creation MUST have been early in their timeline cos they only knew about Hartnell - and indeed, thought that Vicki must be Susan...

But those Daleks were based in 4000 AD, long after they'd met Pertwee, so their records must have been meddled with.

How on Earth do you know they were based in 4000 AD? *Hastily checks Parkin's Ahistory* HE gives a '?2170' date.

How on Earth do you know they were based in 4000 AD

Dalek Masterplan definitely took place in 4000AD, and had Daleks who only knew of one Doctor. The Chase makes most sense if its Daleks are from the same period. Look at their design, for example.

Dalek Masterplan definitely took place in 4000AD, and had Daleks who only knew of one Doctor. The Chase makes most sense if its Daleks are from the same period.

The Chase makes bugger-all sense WHATEVER period its Daleks are from. But there's ABOLUTELY NO REASON to suppose it's the same era as Masterplan. (What exactly did the Daleks SAY about the Doc in Masterplan?) Even if they're pig-ignorant of other incarnations, maybe that just means the Doc released a computer-virus-like-the-one-he-gave-Mickey-the-idiot to wipe himself out of everyone's records in the year 3999. Or maybe the history of the universe gets rewritten EVERY TIME the Doctor and the Daleks meet, as it obviously did after Genesis, not to mention Dalek...(Hell, even the Cybermen don't mention the Tenth Doctor, who they'd be WELL acquainted with, in Earthshock...)

Look at their design, for example.

I don't think that proves anything. Daleks all look the same to me, at least until they suddenly get MUCH better then MUCH worse during the new series.

The Chase makes bugger-all sense WHATEVER period its Daleks are from,

There are problems whichever period you pick, true, but we can go for the period that causes the least problems. 4000 AD puts the Chase in the same period as building the time destroyer, and within a few centuries of Davros's return from the dead. If the Chase were in 2170, you'd need to explain why the Daleks didn't have any time travel technology when Pertwee ran into them off Earth.

Daleks all look the same to me,

And humans all look the same to Daleks, but they'll fight civil wars over the precise pattern of their bumps. Their appearance ought to be a pretty good guide to their date.

If the Chase were in 2170, you'd need to explain why the Daleks didn't have any time travel technology when Pertwee ran into them off Earth.

Because Barbara-n'-Ian blew up their one-and-only timeship, of course!

And...er...they forgot to take any notes about how they'd constructed it...

(Well, y'know...writing stuff down is REALLY HARD with a plunger.)

they'll fight civil wars over the precise pattern of their bumps.

I don't think it's the bumps that are significant (or they wouldn't be so happy to experiment with all those *shudders* COLOURS) more the size of their tentacles or something...

(Well, y'know...writing stuff down is REALLY HARD with a plunger.)

That's what tape recorders are for. The Pertwee Daleks were nowhere near capable of building timeships (except perhaps for those in Day, but that timeline got erased.) For Planet of the Daleks to occur between Chase and Masterplan, Dalek technology would have to go backwards a long way, then forwards again.

I don't think it's the bumps that are significant (or they wouldn't be so happy to experiment with all those *shudders* COLOURS)

The new paradigm seemed pretty offended by the look of their cousins.

That's what tape recorders are for.

Do Daleks HAVE tape recorders? I think we'd've seen enormous tape-spools whirring away a la Colony in Space if they HAD. Sure, Davros had one in Genesis but it probably broke down during the 1,000 years the Daleks spent trying to burrow their way out of the city, and anyway they would have considered it a pathetic humanoid weakness - no doubt all Daleks have perfect memories. Maybe there was an 'unfortunate accident' (i.e. sabotage by a later Doctor) that ensured all the scientist-Daleks who'd worked on the - ••••, I SO want to call it DARDIS - blew up.

For Planet of the Daleks to occur between Chase and Masterplan, Dalek technology would have to go backwards a long way, then forwards again.

Well, that's what HAPPENS in the Whoniverse. History is cyclical, as RTG always says when challenged about why fashion always looks the bloody same in 2005, 200,000, 5 billion AND 100 trillion. Why else would humanity be struggling to get through its own solar system in the year 5000? And don't forget the Daleks also have that nasty Doctor, regressing their history by a thousand years whenever he can and not giving a toss about the Web of Time.

The new paradigm seemed pretty offended by the look of their cousins.

I don't think it was their LOOK, it was the inferior creatures inside...Someone want to volunteer to rewatch Victory to see exactly what they said? Nope, thought not.

Do Daleks HAVE tape recorders?

They have better. They have data cores. The Doctor takes one from an injured Dalek (or downloads the information it contains) in The Wedding of River Song, to learn all they know about the Silence.

Someone want to volunteer to rewatch Victory to see exactly what they said? Nope, thought not.

I just rewatched the relevant bits. It's the impurity of DNA of the old Daleks that offended them, and also prevented the old Daleks from using the Progenitor Device before they obtained the Doctor's testimony.

They have data cores.

Ooh yes, so they do! So each piece of information about timeship-building COULD have been shared among billions of Daleks but, presumably, wasn't. Maybe by that time they'd realised the chances of splitting into warring factions was pretty high. Or that the Doctor could easily access their data cores. Or maybe it was the chances of a crazed Dalek trying to nip back in time and stop the universe developing cos it HAD FIL-THY HU-MAN SCUM in it. Or something.

It's the impurity of DNA of the old Daleks that offended them

Ha! Thought it wasn't those WONDERFUL casings.

Setting Chase aside as unprovable, for now, Masterplan definitely took place after Planet, but those Daleks show no sign of knowing the Doctor has any other faces.

Thus, we can't argue that, in Emily's words, 'the Dalek TARDIS-creation MUST have been early in their timeline cos they only knew about Hartnell' - not unless we also want to claim that Planet of the Daleks really took place post 4000AD, and all the evidence to the contrary was faked to trick the Doctor.

One possible reason for the Masterplan Daleks only know about Hartnell would be if they have more respect for the Web of Time than the Doctor. It's conceivable that when they saw One, they locked away their memories of Two through Eight (Being pre Time War, they can't meet Nine onwards while the Time Lock endures). I'm not entirely convinced the Daleks would go that far to avoid paradox, but it would explain a few things.

ROBERT in Original Series: Season Twenty-One: Resurrection of the Daleks thread: All Daleks think they're the perfect life form. Genetic engineering would be unthinkable.

But there's always been a contradiction at the heart of the purity movement. 'We must keep the Kaled race pure' they announce, as they kick anyone with a deformity into the wasteland whilst genetically engineering themselves into green blobs.

If the Daleks really had been obsessed with purity above survival, they simply wouldn't have survived that long. Sec wouldn't have got so far with his crazy plans before they turned against him. Two types of Dalek with different protuberances wouldn't have been allowed to evolve by Remembrance-time. The Daleks wouldn't be lowering themselves to hire human mercenaries to recover a crippled humanoid genetic-engineerer. And the fat plastic monstrosities may have exterminated their delightful British-flagged cousins, but you can be •••• sure that EVERY previous type of Dalek will soon be making an appearance (well, you can when you've seen those thrilling photos for the first episode of Season 7/33)...

'Crafting the Daleks' origins, Nation attempted not to contradict too much established in his original 1963 serial regarding the neutronic war on Skaro between the Daleks' humanoid forefathers (teachers and philosophers named Dals) and the warrior Thals' - well you could have fooled ME! What's DWM ON?

Resurrection of the Daleks:

'Impulsive, aren't they?' 'They'd kill anyone, even if they're needed' - actually that's true enough (you'd think keeping Davros alive in Genesis would be pretty useful, for starters) so why exactly HAVE the Daleks been so successful at universe-conquering?

'That is forbidden' - a blanket refusal to use Daleks for experimentation. Davros only wants a bit of live tissue to save the Dalek race from extinction, he won't even HURT the poor ickle diddumses...so why exactly ARE the most ruthless lifeform in the cosmos reacting like a bunch of Catholics told to particupate in stem-cell research?

'Without the threat of death you're quite powerless, aren't you' says the Doc to the Daleks. Hello! TORTURE, you moron! Why does it take Stein to explain the whole 'undignified and painful ways of dying' to him?

'Why do they take themselves so seriously?' the Doctor asks, vis-a-vis his metal chums. Gosh, I don't know, Doc, maybe it has something to do with being designed as the universe's ultimate killing machines...? Sense of humour not included.

Moffat and Co were actually quite proud of the iDaleks.

It's the way they made poor blameless MATT say how IMPROVED the Daleks are that REALLY got on my nerves.

Moffat's right about one thing - I WILL burn him as a heretic for liking the Cushing movies.

The chase makes bugger all sense because the Daleks turn into comic relif. Tho just cause they chase Hartnel doesn't mean they don't know about the other Doctors. Maybe the other doc's victories are the reason they want to kill him.

The Dalek's are big on racial purity it makes sense they wouldn't want to be experimented on. And opening their casing isn't the safest thing to do.

Even the Cushing Dalek's look better than the iDalek's, at least we and others like us have convinced Moff of the error of his ways. Lets hope he fixes it in the Asylum of the Daleks. Having to retire them just after their big return must have been an embarasing admision of failure on his part. And with the BBC possibly having the knives out for who it can't have been something he can well afford.

And the Cushing movies have their appeal more than 4 Dalek props big sets etc.

I think the new Daleks would have looked far more impressive if they had been black with colored trims, instead of looking like M&M's on steroid.

Good idea, but that back hump has to go. Makes them look deformed.

OK, I can just about accept the Daleks having a Parliament, but such a BIG one...? Anyone would think they were all democratically-elected to serve different Dalek interest groups...Whatever happened to just EXTERMINATING any Dalek who looked and thought remotely differently to yourself?

'Does it surprise you to know the Daleks have a concept of beauty?'
'I thought you'd run out of ways to make me sick, but hello again! You think hatred is beautiful?'
'Perhaps that is why we've never been able to kill you.' - yeah, I think the PM's probably in denial. But the Doctor should know about their concept of beauty, given that he crushed 'em to death with one of their own statues in The Daleks. Philistine.

OK, I can just about accept the Daleks having a Parliament, but such a BIG one...?

The Dalek empire spans whole galaxies. Even they would need some sort of bureaucracy to run it efficently. Their parliament probably works a lot more like the chinese one then the british one, a central authority that cannot be questionned, and "representatives" appointed by that central authority, of which they would need a large number to run all the parts of their vast empire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAknPKGpcv0

This is from the audio story Jubile. The episode Dalek draws very heavily on it. Some bits are almost word for word.

To put this scene in context an insane dictator forces dwaves to operate Dalek costumes and sing. This is what happens when the real Daleks meet the fake ones. The scene has been animated by somebody but the audio is big finish.

Moderator's Note: Moved from New Series: Season Seven: The Bells of Saint John:

Daleks don't bother about bacteria! You don't see 'em mopping up with bleach every time they exterminate someone!

Because they'd rather exterminate humans, but what do you think happens when they run out of humans? As bubbling lumps of hate, they loathe everything that falls short of Dalek perfection, so they'd move on to exterminating cats, frogs, wasps and, when everything else was dead, bacteria.

Remember Davros's reality bomb? That is the Dalek idea of ultimate victory: the complete and utter destruction of everything that is not Dalek.

what do you think happens when they run out of humans?

They're not gonna be stupid enough to run out of humans. They'll let their slaves breed so they don't run out of things to hate.

As bubbling lumps of hate, they loathe everything that falls short of Dalek perfection, so they'd move on to exterminating cats

Never! Even a Dalek must acknowledge an oochie as a Superior Being. They left that one in the warehouse alone in Resurrection, didn't they?

Remember Davros's reality bomb?

Sure I do, but it was DAVROS'S reality bomb, not the Daleks'. It was totally antithetical to their usual philosophy, and I've never understood why they just went along with it, even after locking him in the basement as a nutter.

Hmm...Davros MUST have learnt from all those other times the Daleks betrayed him, and instilled the Stolen Earth ones with a fanatical devotion to his ideals. Whilst, of course, forgetting to instil a fanatical devotion to HIMSELF.

They're not gonna be stupid enough to run out of humans. They'll let their slaves breed so they don't run out of things to hate.

Even if they tried, can you really imagine the Daleks running a successful nursery? What with exterminating any child who refused to stop crying, and any child who was underweight, and any child who said they weren't the superior race and any parent who suggested the Daleks might want to reconsider, etc, I'm pretty sure the survival rate would be so low humanity would be extinct within a few generations.

Even a Dalek must acknowledge an oochie as a Superior Being.

They can't. Davros made sure of that, carving unwavering certainty of their own superiority into their very genes. Any Dalek that admitted a non-Dalek might even be their equal would be exterminated instantly.

They left that one in the warehouse alone in Resurrection, didn't they?

Because there were still humans around.

it was DAVROS'S reality bomb, not the Daleks'. It was totally antithetical to their usual philosophy

Not as I see it. They want to be the superior beings of the universe, but it was shaped by Rassilon, and others. As long as the universe as we know it exists, they're effectively living in Rassilon's house, by Rassilon's rules - the laws of time, etc, a situation they would surely find intolerable. Superior beings shouldn't have to abide by rules laid down by their lessers, after all.

No, the Daleks would naturally want to destroy Rassilon's universe - especially since that egomaniac probably carved an hymn to his glory into the laws of physics - and, if possible, replace it with one of their own design.

Davros MUST have learnt from all those other times the Daleks betrayed him, and instilled the Stolen Earth ones with a fanatical devotion to his ideals

He did that back in Genesis, which is why they never questioned the need to exterminate everything non-Kaled. He was just so arrogant he never realised they might disobey him.

Even if they tried, can you really imagine the Daleks running a successful nursery? What with exterminating any child who refused to stop crying

Well, unfortunately they'd have to restrain themselves from exterminating any REALLY ANNOYING screaming brats but hey, if I can manage that...

and any child who was underweight

Well yes, obviously the sickly weaklings will have to go - terrible waste of resources. But that will only improve the chances of healthy breeding in the long run, surely?

and any child who said they weren't the superior race

The little buggers'll be taught to keep their gobs shut at a VERY early age, and anyone who doesn't is obviously swimming at the shallow end of the gene pool - again, the species will only improve by their Darwinian removal.

and any parent who suggested the Daleks might want to reconsider

If they've survived long enough to become parents in the Dalek slave camps, they won't do anything that stupid.

I'm pretty sure the survival rate would be so low humanity would be extinct within a few generations.

There have been regimes across history that make a Dalek labour camp look like Butlins, but none of them - with the exception of Pol Pot's Cambodia - ever looked like they might actually die out due to the low birthrate.

Even THE DOCTOR said we breed like rabbits and he'd never be done saving us...

Even a Dalek must acknowledge an oochie as a Superior Being.

They can't. Davros made sure of that, carving unwavering certainty of their own superiority into their very genes. Any Dalek that admitted a non-Dalek might even be their equal would be exterminated instantly.

Well, of course they wouldn't admit it OUT LOUD, and probably wouldn't even THINK it, but somewhere down in their subconscious, the Daleks couldn't help but admire such a beautiful, intelligent, skilled predator with FOUR more legs than they had.

it was DAVROS'S reality bomb, not the Daleks'. It was totally antithetical to their usual philosophy

Not as I see it. They want to be the superior beings of the universe, but it was shaped by Rassilon, and others. As long as the universe as we know it exists, they're effectively living in Rassilon's house, by Rassilon's rules - the laws of time, etc, a situation they would surely find intolerable.

I'm not convinced. The books have been decanonised and even if they hadn't been, the Lawrence Miles stuff with all that Anchoring of the Thread and defeat of the Carnival Queen has spun off into an entirely new universe. There's not really anything on-screen that suggests the universe was fashioned in Rassilon's image rather than being a nasty accident caused by an anti-matter engine going back in time.

Superior beings shouldn't have to abide by rules laid down by their lessers, after all.

But it's not as if the Daleks obey the rules NOW. And it's a lot more fun to break them if there's someone standing there aghast watching you do it.

No, the Daleks would naturally want to destroy Rassilon's universe - especially since that egomaniac probably carved an hymn to his glory into the laws of physics - and, if possible, replace it with one of their own design.

Even if it WAS Rassilon's universe the Daleks wouldn't admit it, even to themselves, and there was nothing on-screen about them creating any new universes - just killing all life in them. They'd surely still be stuck with boring laws of time and physics and suchlike.

Davros MUST have learnt from all those other times the Daleks betrayed him, and instilled the Stolen Earth ones with a fanatical devotion to his ideals

He did that back in Genesis, which is why they never questioned the need to exterminate everything non-Kaled.

Not necessarily. I mean, anything non-Kaled on Skaro was Thal, and after a thousand years of war you couldn't blame ANYONE for getting pretty trigger-happy around their ancient enemy.

they'd have to restrain themselves from exterminating any REALLY ANNOYING screaming brats but hey, if I can manage that...

You aren't a bubbling lump of hate, and babies have features evolution has optimised to tug at your heart, completely unlike Daleks.

There's not really anything on-screen that suggests the universe was fashioned in Rassilon's image rather than being a nasty accident caused by an anti-matter engine going back in time.

Those aren't mutually exclusive. The universe being created by an explosion from its future is just the kind of paradox Rassilon might use.

Anyway, the Doctor did say his people invented black holes. That means they must have invented general relativity, one of the cornerstones of physics.

There's also the bit where the Doctor says humans look Time Lord. If he was being literal, which I'll admit is unclear, that confirms the Time Lords arranged for humanoids to evolve everywhere.

Well yes, obviously the sickly weaklings will have to go - terrible waste of resources. But that will only improve the chances of healthy breeding in the long run, surely?

Half the children will always be under average weight, no matter how many the Daleks kill.

But it's not as if the Daleks obey the rules NOW.

They obey the laws of time, cause following effect, and they respect gravity. Yes, they can fly, but so can humans: breaking the law of gravity would look more dramatic.

there was nothing on-screen about them creating any new universes - just killing all life in them.

Well, obviously, you have to clear away the old before you can bring in the new.

Not necessarily. I mean, anything non-Kaled on Skaro was Thal

Then what were they eating? Surely not each other. There must have been some other life around.

Anyway, if the Dalek's weren't driven by Davros's genocidal mania, they'd have enslaved the Thals, not killed them. It's not as though they think of themselves as Kaleds.

they'd have to restrain themselves from exterminating any REALLY ANNOYING screaming brats but hey, if I can manage that...

You aren't a bubbling lump of hate

I TOTALLY AM when it comes to BABIES.

and babies have features evolution has optimised to tug at your heart

Yeah, but either I'm an evolutionary blind alley or I'm the next evolutionary step (in response to the overpopulation catastrophe that's destroying this planet) and I only respond to babies if they're furry and pointy-eared and purry and tailed...

There's not really anything on-screen that suggests the universe was fashioned in Rassilon's image rather than being a nasty accident caused by an anti-matter engine going back in time.

Those aren't mutually exclusive. The universe being created by an explosion from its future is just the kind of paradox Rassilon might use.

But on-screen he was WAY too busy battling vampires and stealing Omega's black-hole-exploding credit to bother with rewiring the UNIVERSE in his own image.

Anyway, the Doctor did say his people invented black holes. That means they must have invented general relativity, one of the cornerstones of physics.

I never really understood that comment in Satan Pit. I'd rather believe it's a throwaway joke referring to the fact that the first KNOWN, artificial, black hole was created by Omega. Bear in mind that Tennant WAS in full-on 'I'm the Lonely God and the Stuff Of Legends' mode at the time.

There's also the bit where the Doctor says humans look Time Lord. If he was being literal, which I'll admit is unclear, that confirms the Time Lords arranged for humanoids to evolve everywhere.

Nonsense, it just means that they look identical and all humans would think 'Gosh, Time Lords look so human!' and all Time Lords would think 'Gosh, humans look so Time Lord!' (Shortly followed by 'Ooh, I think I'll play with Earth girls...')

Half the children will always be under average weight, no matter how many the Daleks kill.

I'm not saying the Daleks would weigh them against some absolutely-average birth-weight and exterminate anyone who was an ounce under (weakling SCUM!) or an ounce over (hogging a limited supply of nutrients from other human slaves!). Just that any premature or noticeably tiny baby would be used for extermination practice without bothering with the current 'civilised' practice of wiring 24-week foetuses up to incubators and spending millions of pounds and waiting for the parents to get really attached before they either die or survive with massive physical and mental disabilities.

(Though what do I know? The Daleks MIGHT weigh all the babies. Didn't they weigh Victoria, while training her not to feed the flying pests? Honestly, these guys LOVE having a pet to raise.)

They obey the laws of time, cause following effect

So how exactly were they planning on stopping cause following effect once they were all alone in the universe?

and they respect gravity. Yes, they can fly, but so can humans: breaking the law of gravity would look more dramatic.

I'm sorry, I'm the old-fashioned type who considers that unnatural freaks like aeroplanes, pigeons, flying Daleks etc are just TOTALLY sticking up two fingers at this 'gravity' thing.

there was nothing on-screen about them creating any new universes - just killing all life in them.

Well, obviously, you have to clear away the old before you can bring in the new.

But Davros was explaining his plans to the Doctor! At length! OF COURSE he'd've mentioned it if he and his merry band of metal meanies were planning on passing the extremely boring and lonely millennia rewriting the Laws of Time and Physics and suchlike.

I mean, anything non-Kaled on Skaro was Thal

Then what were they eating? Surely not each other. There must have been some other life around.

WHY not each other?

Anyway, I know there was that petrified monster in The Daleks, and I know the Remembrance novelision mentioned rock leopards or something going up with Skaro when that git of a Doctor blew it up, but I can't say I actually BELIEVE in them. Can anyone remember if there was any meat alongside that fruit and loo rolls the Daleks were using to lure those cretinous Thals to their deaths in The Daleks?

Anyway, if the Dalek's weren't driven by Davros's genocidal mania, they'd have enslaved the Thals, not killed them. It's not as though they think of themselves as Kaleds.

Actually I can really GET the desire to exterminate all Thals. The Thals were certainly doing their best to return the compliment with that rocket of theirs. The planet just isn't big enough for the both of them. (Of course, it would help if their cities were on separate continents rather than within a couple of miles of each other, but what the hell.) Whereas if you're invading loads of other planets primarily to plunder their mineral wealth so you can create lots more adorable baby Daleks, it makes total sense to enslave rather than exterminate all those filthy inferior native races so they can do the digging for you, what with you unfortunately being devoid of HANDS.

I TOTALLY AM when it comes to BABIES.

You're human. Evolution has fined tuned your brain to respond positively to babies, especially those in distress. Your conscious mind may be filled with hate, but your instincts will be urging you in the opposite direction. Not so with Daleks.

But on-screen he was WAY too busy battling vampires and stealing Omega's black-hole-exploding credit to bother with rewiring the UNIVERSE in his own image.

On-screen, we've only seen a minuscule fraction of Rassilon's career, though that's enough to make it clear he was enough of a egomaniac to want to rewrite the universe in his own image.

I never really understood that comment in Satan Pit. I'd rather believe it's a throwaway joke referring to the fact that the first KNOWN, artificial, black hole was created by Omega

If he'd just said his people practically invented black holes, that would be plausible, but then he went on to say they actually did. That doesn't sound like a joke to me.

I'm not saying the Daleks would weigh them against some absolutely-average birth-weight and exterminate anyone who was an ounce under (weakling SCUM!) or an ounce over (hogging a limited supply of nutrients from other human slaves!).

Sounds like standard Dalek policy to me. They're not exactly tolerant of deviations from the norm.

So how exactly were they planning on stopping cause following effect once they were all alone in the universe?

Destroy the universe, and time itself is destroyed.

I'm sorry, I'm the old-fashioned type who considers that unnatural freaks like aeroplanes, pigeons, flying Daleks etc are just TOTALLY sticking up two fingers at this 'gravity' thing.

I can explain planes and pigeons, if you like. No breaking gravity is required.

Now, if the Daleks could turn off the Sun's gravity there'd be nothing holding it together against the pressures within, producing a massive explosion. The only time we've seen Daleks blow stars up, they had to borrow a Time Lord weapon.

But Davros was explaining his plans to the Doctor! At length! OF COURSE he'd've mentioned it

No doubt, but you know what the BBC are like. They don't show us everything that happens to the Doctor, or even close; they show us just enough to keep us tantalised.

WHY not each other?

Bad for morale. Eating roast leg of Thal is fine as long as the soldiers can drag home enough corpses, but what when they don't? Davros certainly isn't going to let his elite science corps go hungry - it'd impair their efficiency - so the obvious next step is to eat the soldiers who have conveniently just proved themselves incompetent by not bringing back enough food. While that might motivate some soldiers, the prospect of being eaten by the scientists will also cause a lot of desertions.

Anyway, if the Kaleds are eating the Thals and the Thals are eating the Kaleds, they're breaking the second law of thermodynamics, which normally takes a planet full of chanting monks.

No, there must be some plants left on Skaro, and a few animals to eat them.

Actually I can really GET the desire to exterminate all Thals. The Thals were certainly doing their best to return the compliment with that rocket of theirs.

The Thals were trying to exterminate the Kaleds, but the Daleks don't care one bit about the Kaleds. They view them as inferior beings, just like the Thals, and they have no interest in avenging the Kaled defeats.

On-screen, we've only seen a minuscule fraction of Rassilon's career, though that's enough to make it clear he was enough of a egomaniac to want to rewrite the universe in his own image.

Yeah, but only when it was ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to save his own species from destruction.

They're not exactly tolerant of deviations from the norm.

Only when the norm is themselves.

So how exactly were they planning on stopping cause following effect once they were all alone in the universe?

Destroy the universe, and time itself is destroyed.

Really? Why?

I can explain planes and pigeons, if you like. No breaking gravity is required.

No, no, you just explain this destroying-the-universe-destroys-time thing, it's probably more relevant to Who.

Now, if the Daleks could turn off the Sun's gravity there'd be nothing holding it together against the pressures within, producing a massive explosion. The only time we've seen Daleks blow stars up, they had to borrow a Time Lord weapon.

They probably just thought it would be more FUN to nick a Time Lord weapon.

But Davros was explaining his plans to the Doctor! At length! OF COURSE he'd've mentioned it

No doubt, but you know what the BBC are like. They don't show us everything that happens to the Doctor, or even close; they show us just enough to keep us tantalised.

But they definitely weren't cutting anything from the Tennant/Davros conversation, were they? That would be BLASPHEMY!

No, there must be some plants left on Skaro, and a few animals to eat them.

Yeah, I have no problem with PLANTS, and maybe Davros invented some super-duper algae or something in his spare time.

Really? Why?

Time is a part of the universe, one of its dimensions. With the universe destroyed, there can no more be a time than there can be a north.

They probably just thought it would be more FUN to nick a Time Lord weapon.

The only thing a Dalek should enjoy is the pleasure of extermination. I suppose a few of them might like watching videos of hate-crazed maniacs - Hitler in full rant, or worse - as a kind of pornography, but stealing for the fun of it is the kind of deviation from Dalek norms that should get them exterminated.

Admittedly, Davros might have relaxed the rules for his faction, but we know what he wants: absolute power. 'Stealing is fun' doesn't fit his personality.

But they definitely weren't cutting anything from the Tennant/Davros conversation, were they? That would be BLASPHEMY!

As if that would stop the people who burnt so much of the Doctor's history, and neglected to film even more.

Time is a part of the universe, one of its dimensions. With the universe destroyed, there can no more be a time than there can be a north.

Ahhhhh. So if I could nip outside the universe, I wouldn't age? What about if I said or did anything - would they happen in the correct order or what? It's difficult to picture timelessness, as Big Finish learnt to its cost with its 'Divergent Universe' Eighth Doctor audios.

The only thing a Dalek should enjoy is the pleasure of extermination.

That's a very narrow-minded, one might almost think racist, thing to say. Daleks enjoy shrieking 'DO NOT MOVE!' (Destiny.) They enjoy sculpture. (The Daleks.) They enjoy chanting 'TARDIS! TARDIS!' (Chase.) They enjoy meeting Rose Tyler. (Dalek.) They enjoy the concept of beauty. (Asylum.) They're practically well-rounded, at least in comparison with ME.

Admittedly, Davros might have relaxed the rules for his faction, but we know what he wants: absolute power. 'Stealing is fun' doesn't fit his personality.

Well, of course they wouldn't ADMIT they're doing it for fun - just that it was quicker to steal rather than develop a star-exploder of their own, which of course they could do if they wanted because THEY ARE THE SU-PER-I-OR LIFE-FORM, but don't tell me they wouldn't derive SOME satisfaction from putting one over on the Lords of Time.

As if that would stop the people who burnt so much of the Doctor's history, and neglected to film even more.

They really should be put on trial for crimes against humanity, shouldn't they?

Ahhhhh. So if I could nip outside the universe, I wouldn't age? What about if I said or did anything

You wouldn't be able to do anything, because there wouldn't be any time passing in which you could do it - unless you created your own time, at which point you get to decide which laws it obeys.

Daleks enjoy shrieking 'DO NOT MOVE!'

Just because they keep doing it doesn't mean they enjoy it - how many people do you think actually enjoy their day's work? No, Daleks keep repeating orders because they think that's how you get people to listen.

They enjoy chanting 'TARDIS! TARDIS!' (Chase.) They enjoy meeting Rose Tyler. (Dalek.)

Time travel causes mutations - from Martha to Magnus Greel. Thus, those Daleks were not normal daleks.

They do find hate beautiful, hence Asylum, but only hate. The statues in their city were doubtless abstract depictions of hate, their version of modern art.

don't tell me they wouldn't derive SOME satisfaction from putting one over on the Lords of Time.

Hmm, you do have a point. Daleks probably do enjoy showing off as well as exterminating, and there's no better way of showing off than creating a universe in your image, once you've disposed of the tatty old version.

They really should be put on trial for crimes against humanity, shouldn't they?

If we ruled the world ...

Well, actually I'd try to be as forgiving as the Doctor. Bad as the culprits were, they're not quite as bad as the Master, who Ten was willing to let live.Besides, we'd be too busy watching the 12 completely new Doctor Who episodes the BBC would be broadcasting 365 days a year

You wouldn't be able to do anything, because there wouldn't be any time passing in which you could do it

Ah! The Divergent Universe audios might have been moderately more enjoyable if they'd just been blank CDs of nothingness.

Daleks keep repeating orders because they think that's how you get people to listen.

Try rewatching Destiny - it's pretty obvious that Romana is listening to the 'Do not move's - she's frozen to the spot for the last few dozen of 'em...

Time travel causes mutations - from Martha to Magnus Greel. Thus, those Daleks were not normal daleks.

Oh! Interesting point. (Even if I'm not sure the Chase Daleks HAD actually travelled in time when they were chanting 'TARDIS! TARDIS!' in that adorably enthusiastic manner.)

They do find hate beautiful, hence Asylum, but only hate. The statues in their city were doubtless abstract depictions of hate, their version of modern art.

Foul slander of a fine statue!

Daleks probably do enjoy showing off as well as exterminating, and there's no better way of showing off than creating a universe in your image, once you've disposed of the tatty old version.

They can hardly show off to EACH OTHER - what would they DO in a universe in their own image?

Well, actually I'd try to be as forgiving as the Doctor.

Me too. As long as it was the Doctor in Dinosaurs on a Spaceship.

Bad as the culprits were, they're not quite as bad as the Master, who Ten was willing to let live.

Ten was WRONG. He should have put the Master down like a rabid dog.

Besides, we'd be too busy watching the 12 completely new Doctor Who episodes the BBC would be broadcasting 365 days a year

Oh *rapturous sigh* YES, so we would...that would SERIOUSLY cut into vengeance-time...

They can hardly show off to EACH OTHER - what would they DO in a universe in their own image?
Watch Star Trek? ;-)

it's pretty obvious that Romana is listening to the 'Do not move's - she's frozen to the spot for the last few dozen of 'em...

But for all the Daleks know, she might move the moment they stop ordering her to stay still.

They can hardly show off to EACH OTHER - what would they DO in a universe in their own image?

Creating a universe where Dalek-style life is as ubiquitous as humanoid life is in the Doctors has one downside. All the natives will be determined to exterminate all other life, including the real Daleks, who will thus find themselves locked in an endless war - which they will probably enjoy.

You may think this is too obvious a mistake for the Daleks to make but, like Davros, they're too arrogant to realise their creation could rebel against them until they're staring down the barrel of a death ray.

Ten was WRONG. He should have put the Master down like a rabid dog

The Doctor err? That sounds like blasphemy.

Killing the Master in the heat of the moment is fine. Killing him in cold blood isn't. Better to turn him into a scarecrow, and set him guarding the fields of England, like in the Family of Blood.

The Doctor err? That sounds like blasphemy.

But this is one God who positively ENCOURAGES blasphemy. Remember Eccy in Boom Town, telling us not to worship him (as IF!)?

Killing the Master in the heat of the moment is fine. Killing him in cold blood isn't.

It's fine by ME! If he'd just been EXECUTED instead of that locking-him-up nonsense then Tom might still be alive! AND Tennant! (Just not both at once. Sadly.)

Better to turn him into a scarecrow, and set him guarding the fields of England, like in the Family of Blood.

This guy gets out of BEING BURNT TO DEATH. He'd get out of being a scarecrow in no time.

'Mining. Why are the Daleks so fixated on that? Wherever they arrive, by Part Three they've got the locals digging. Maybe it speaks of something locked in the subterranean layers of their psyche. They're unconsciously excavating their way back to halcyon days in their underground base on Skaro...It's the notion of "bunker mentality" taken to its apotheosis' - DWM.

Good point. Though completely inapplicable to New Who. What HAPPENED to the poor dears, that they no longer want to DIG?

Terry Nation is no longer writing their scripts?

The Daleks aren't big on bases these days they only seem to have ships.

Actually they DO have Dalek prison camps on planets that are impossible to escape from...why doesn't the Doctor ever VISIT them? Or if he does, why doesn't the BBC ever FILM it?

'In the 1960s the children in the playground who chanted "exterminate" were insipred by the Daleks they saw on TV; in the 1970s and 1980s, the TV Daleks were inspired by the playground chants' - Rob Shearman in DWM. I'd never thought of it like that...I'm not convinced by his argument that one godawful comedy coughing Dalek in The Chase means they USED to be individuals and then turned into a generic race...but still, interesting point.

'Any other nation would be slightly ashamed to have an iconic villain made from a lavatory. Not us. It's magnificently British.' - http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/features/ray-cusick-the-man-who-left-a-generation-of-children-cowering-behind-the-sofa-from-the-daleks-8508677.html. I, er, hadn't thought of it quite like THAT before.

And from the Telegraph's obituary (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/culture-obituaries/tv-radio-obituaries/9891307/Raymond-Cusick.html):

'Before rehearsals started the cast and other members brought their children along and they were shown the Daleks and talked to the Dalek operators. But then when rehearsals started the operators got into the Daleks and started moving, and at that point all the children screamed and ran out of the studio.' - Cusick on the very first Dalek rehearsal

The Independent - Can you imagine if the Americans had thought them up? Can you imagine CGI Daleks?
CGI??? In 1963??? Heck, no. Budget conscious network executives would have tried to keep it simple, like an actor wearing silver makeup, or a cardboard box with glitter and stuff glued on it. Heck when Roddenberry was trying to get Star Trek made executives wondered why Roddenberry's team was wasting so much time on coming up with a ship design and they suggested something cigar-shaped with lights.

Well, they might have resembled the Nomad probe in the TOS episode The Changeling

Moderator's Note: continued from 'Novels: New Adventures: Transit':

What does the Cult being above the Emperor actually mean? If they could give him orders, they'd be co-Emperors.

Not necessarily. They could have been more like Popes or Regents or something. HE had the official power, but THEY were pulling the strings behind the scenes...Of course, there would no doubt have been a hideous showdown sooner or later if the Cult hadn't decided to just scarper.

For that matter, who are they being kept secret from? They don't need to be hidden from the other Daleks, since if the Emperor says they're off limits, no lesser Dalek will dare touch them.

I'm not so sure - Dalek politics is more complicated than we've ever imagined. We sure as hell didn't foresee a PARLIAMENT and PRIME MINISTER and suchlike. And look at how Davros is being captured by Daleks one minute and becoming their Emperor the next. Look at how the bronze beauties are accepting extermination as inferior beings one minute and taking over Parliament the next. Daleks have some VERY FIXED PRINCIPLES, and if ANYONE violates them, even the Emperor (this WAS before he became a God, after all) he's in trouble, as poor old Dalek Sec could have told him. Thinking the unthinkable, using their imaginations, having NAMES, would all have sounded so blasphemous* to the Daleks that they MIGHT have turned on their emperor, who (presumably) started an unnecessary and Dalek-and-universe-endangering war, so wouldn't be in the strongest of positions in the first place.

No, it is clear that, since the Cult had enough individuality to be personally proud of their own status (unlike other daleks), the Emperor fed them a flattering lie to keep them happy.

I disagree. Whilst SOME Daleks are capable of feeding people flattering lies ('I AM YOUR SER-VANT. WOULD YOU LIKE A CUP OF TEA?') I really don't think the emperor would stoop so low. And what would be the POINT of diverting resources and authority to an elite group if you WERE gonna exterminate them anytime they did as they were told and came up with a fresh idea?

*OK, possibly 'blasphemous' isn't the right word, as it was news to Eccy that the Daleks HAD such a concept, but you know what I mean.

Of course, there would no doubt have been a hideous showdown sooner or later

The Dalek Emperor would have to be an idiot not to see that coming, and be prepared for it. If the Cult made any suggestions he thought were really intended to set him up for death, they'd be exterminated.

if ANYONE violates them, even the Emperor (this WAS before he became a God, after all) he's in trouble, as poor old Dalek Sec could have told him.

Which incidentally shows that even the Cult don't want to get too far outside the box. When Sec left it, the others exterminated him.

Whilst SOME Daleks are capable of feeding people flattering lies ... I really don't think the emperor would stoop so low.

Stooping only matters if you care about your own dignity and honour, not something I'd expect of any Dalek. Besides, who'd dare tell the Dalek emperor he's demeaning himself?

what would be the POINT of diverting resources and authority to an elite group if you WERE gonna exterminate them anytime they did as they were told and came up with a fresh idea?

Not every time they came up with a fresh idea, just every time they came up with one the Emperor loathed, and every time it looked like they might be challenging his authority.

The Dalek Emperor would have to be an idiot not to see that coming

The Dalek Emperor IS an idiot.

Daleks - and Davros - NEVER seem to see things coming. HOW MANY times have they taken on the Oncoming Storm, utterly confident in their victory despite the last umpteen-million defeats?

and be prepared for it.

And even if he DID see it coming, he wouldn't have had TIME to prepare for it. He's fighting a rather large WAR. Like Churchill promising to make a favourable mention of the devil if it'll help him get an alliance with hell, the Emperor would have snatched at any hope of an advantage and worried about the consequences later.

If the Cult made any suggestions he thought were really intended to set him up for death, they'd be exterminated.

This IS the guy who eventually proclaimed himself a god. It would probably never have occurred to him that the Cult might turn on him personally - just that they'd have some unpleasantly unDaleky suggestions that it would be his emperorly duty to fight. And to be fair, he was right - they DIDN'T turn on him (merely abandoned him, the cowards), and, when Rose spoke of the Emperor, the Cult actually sounded quite desperately loyal to hear more. (Admittedly they didn't seem OVERLY upset when she told them she'd reduced him to a big pile of dust but hey, maybe they just didn't believe that a chav could DO that.)

Which incidentally shows that even the Cult don't want to get too far outside the box. When Sec left it, the others exterminated him.

The Cult were thinking STAGGERINGLY outside the box when they agreed to mingle precious Dalek genes with filthy human ones. Daleks had fought civil wars over the size of their protuberances before now. It was just when Sec went all NICE and SOFT, they (frankly, quite correctly) offed the miserable traitor.

Stooping only matters if you care about your own dignity and honour, not something I'd expect of any Dalek.

THIS Dalek, however, proclaimed himself a god. Most gods are big on dignity and honour. (OK, maybe not some of the Norse ones.)

Besides, who'd dare tell the Dalek emperor he's demeaning himself?

They wouldn't say so to his face (er...casing) but he'd just KNOW they were muttering about it in tunnels, after carefully waving their eyestalks around to check no one was listening, a la Daleks in Manhattan.

what would be the POINT of diverting resources and authority to an elite group if you WERE gonna exterminate them anytime they did as they were told and came up with a fresh idea?

Not every time they came up with a fresh idea, just every time they came up with one the Emperor loathed, and every time it looked like they might be challenging his authority.

And the Emperor REALISED that this sort of interference would utterly undermine the Cult's entire raison d'etre, which is why he GENUINELY made them above n'beyond him.

just that they'd have some unpleasantly unDaleky suggestions that it would be his emperorly duty to fight

By vaporising the culprits, as is the Dalek way. Arguing with the cult about what is acceptable would be most undalek-like.

The Cult were thinking STAGGERINGLY outside the box when they agreed to mingle precious Dalek genes with filthy human ones.

Only by Dalek standards.

Most gods are big on dignity and honour. (OK, maybe not some of the Norse ones.)

Zeus slept with everyone he could catch - not just women - usually in animal shape. There's nothing honourable about that, and very little dignified. Many other gods are as badly behaved, in different ways - they act, unsurprisingly, like people would given unlimited power.

They wouldn't say so to his face (er...casing) but he'd just KNOW they were muttering about it in tunnels

So put security cameras in the tunnels, which might also catch humanoid infiltrators, and exterminate the mutterers. Daleks enjoy killing; they'll usually pick the solution that involves the maximum deaths.

And the Emperor REALISED that this sort of interference would utterly undermine the Cult's entire raison d'etre

But you just said he was an idiot. He wouldn't be smart enough to realise that.

just that they'd have some unpleasantly unDaleky suggestions that it would be his emperorly duty to fight

By vaporising the culprits, as is the Dalek way. Arguing with the cult about what is acceptable would be most undalek-like.

Which is, of course, why he made them ABOVE AND BEYOND him in the first place. No need for vaporisations OR arguments.

The Cult were thinking STAGGERINGLY outside the box when they agreed to mingle precious Dalek genes with filthy human ones.

Only by Dalek standards.

Well, YEAH I'm judging Daleks by Dalek standards. But even THE DOCTOR is occasionally sniffy about such cross-species pollination - see Delta and the Bannermen.

Zeus slept with everyone he could catch - not just women - usually in animal shape. There's nothing honourable about that, and very little dignified.

True, add the Greek ones to the list - though they DID manage SOME dignity and, well, Olympian detachment SOME of the time. 'Jumping anything that moves in a Captain-Jack-style manner' isn't the first thing to spring to mind about Zeus, though it •••• well SHOULD be. He must have had REALLY good PR people.

Daleks enjoy killing; they'll usually pick the solution that involves the maximum deaths.

Except that when you're in the middle of a war for all creation, you just can't AFFORD to slaughter half your own troops. Which is, presumably, why the Cult was so top-secret.

But you just said he was an idiot. He wouldn't be smart enough to realise that.

The Emperor is a genius in MOST ways - he's held his own against the Doctor, after all - but Dalek arrogance leaves him with a few blind spots.

Which is, of course, why he made them ABOVE AND BEYOND him in the first place.

No doubt he said that, but for him to believe it, he'd have to believe they were better than him. Would the Dalek emperor really admit, even to himself, that any being could be superior to him?

Well, YEAH I'm judging Daleks by Dalek standards.

Which don't really apply to the Cult.

Except that when you're in the middle of a war for all creation, you just can't AFFORD to slaughter half your own troops.

True, but you can afford to slaughter four advisers who have annoyed you, and replace them with clones.

Dalek arrogance leaves him with a few blind spots.

One of which is the need to tolerate eccentric behaviour from subordinates.

Which is, of course, why he made them ABOVE AND BEYOND him in the first place.

No doubt he said that, but for him to believe it, he'd have to believe they were better than him.

Actually it was THE DOCTOR who said it. And it wouldn't have made them BETTER, just different...the Pope to his Emperor, or something. With the Dalek equivalent of spiritual rather than temporal power.

Well, YEAH I'm judging Daleks by Dalek standards.

Which don't really apply to the Cult.

I think they do. The Cult was Dalek through and through. Even when Caan went stark raving nuts and decided that all Daleks were evil, he set about dealing with the situation in an EXTREMELY Dalek style.

Except that when you're in the middle of a war for all creation, you just can't AFFORD to slaughter half your own troops.

True, but you can afford to slaughter four advisers who have annoyed you, and replace them with clones.

Which is what probably would have happened, stifling all potentially war-winning ideas, if the Emperor hadn't had the sense to put that particular temptation out of his reach.

Dalek arrogance leaves him with a few blind spots.

One of which is the need to tolerate eccentric behaviour from subordinates.

THEY'RE NOT HIS SUBORDINATES! I was more thinking of the way the Emperor sat back and TOLD the Doctor to use the Delta-Wave. By that stage he didn't think he was risking his OWN life - being a god and all - but he was JUST SO INTERESTED in what the Doctor would choose, he didn't mind gambling Dalek victory, and indeed survival, on it. He may well have been similarly interested in seeing what the Cult would come up with.

Which is what probably would have happened, stifling all potentially war-winning ideas, if the Emperor hadn't had the sense to put that particular temptation out of his reach.

But it doesn't. If the Emperor decides he doesn't like what the Cult are suggesting there's nothing that can stop him changing his mind, and cancelling the order placing them above him.

On the wider point, we've seen normal Daleks get blown up for failing, or commit suicide. With that kind of behaviour, Rassilon killing some of his own people too isn't much of an handicap.

we've seen normal Daleks get blown up for failing, or commit suicide. With that kind of behaviour, Rassilon killing some of his own people too isn't much of an handicap.

Yeah, but a) There are a LOT more Daleks than there are Time Lords - the deaths of a few million more-or-less won't make much difference, and b) the Daleks, whilst still not exactly being well-balanced, life-loving individuals, have come SOME way since their Death to the Daleks nadir of 'Eek! A human captive has escaped! *BOOM!*'

Isn't the Dalek Parliament more administrative rather than voting rulers like we do. Tho I assume they advise the PM on the best way to exterminate people.

Re the Cult I always assumed the Emperor just sent them off to do their own thing. Kind of in a black ops style way. And remember the Cult were pleased to hear the Emperor had survived the war so they were loyal to him. Before they were the cult they were ordinary Daleks, some of that loyalty would stay in them.

Happy 50th Birthday to the Daleks!

We have a DALEK-LOVING TRAITOR in our midst!

Daleks: HA-PPY BIRTH-DAY! EX-TER-MIN-ATE THE CAN-DLES!
*Emperor Dalek fires, candles go out, then flicker back on*
Daleks: HA-HA-HA!

Even as comedic fodder in a Comiccon convention, those things are creepy.

BEST DALEK EPISODE:

"Genesis of the Daleks"

"Remembrance of the Daleks"


(TIE)

Noooooo no no no no.

Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways, Army of Ghosts/Doomday, The Stolen Earth/Journey's End, The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang. (I'd stick in The Wedding of River Song and Waters of Mars but they were really brief Dalek cameos.)

Oh Emily. I actually find myself agreeing with John here. The only other Dalek episodes worth bothering with are "Power of the Daleks", "Evil of the Daleks" and, of course, "Dalek"

Oh, of course, if we can include stories we haven't actually SEEN*, Power and Evil are almost certainly all-time classics that are very nearly as good as Stolen Earth/Journey's End.

*Thanks for that, Phil Morris

Power and Evil are almost certainly all-time classics


Hard to judge stories that haven't seen the light of day in over forty years.

Oh, I don't know. If an audio is not-particularly-inspiring (Dalek Masterplan, Enemy of the World) then it can be improved beyond all measure when those MAGICAL MOVING PICTURES materialise to accompany it. But if an audio sounds as if THIS STORY WOULD BE ******* BRILLIANT IF ONLY THE BBC HADN'T BURNT IT ALIVE, I can't imagine that the SIGHT of Troughton doing his thing would cause a negative reassessment...

How do the Daleks reproduce? Are there male and female Daleks, are they hermaphrodite, asexual? Do they get pregnant, lay eggs, sprout little Dalek buds? Do they have families or are young Daleks raised by the state? Is any of that addressed in any way that you might call canon?

Mostly they just seem to convert humans (Parting of the Ways, Revelation) or - ugg - are cloned from Davros's flesh (Journey's End). Do we ever learn where the green-bubbling-lumps-of-hate on the Dalek production line in Power come from? I'm assuming there's a pretty quick and easy biological (but NOT sexual) method of reproduction, cos no one seems worried about where the baby Daleks are going to come from once they've wiped out EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE.

The Daleks could all be clones of the first ones Davros made. It'd make them more vulnerable to disease, since they'd lack genetic diversity, but since germs would need to get through their armour first, that wouldn't be much of a problem.

Would cloned ones have resulted in Daleks with the wrong-number-of-tentacles, hence the Dalek civil war mentioned in Remembrance?

The Movellan virus seemed to get through their casings fast enough.

Clones would by definition be identical to the original, unless deliberately altered, something I can't see the Daleks doing. And Dalek reproduction by cloning doesn't seem to be easy to achieve, as demonstrated in Daleks in Manhattan. The Daleks must have some sort of normal reproduction mode, one that would allow this sort of mutation to occur.

The Movellan virus was designed to attack the Daleks and their casings, it probably had features that natural viruses wouldn't or couldn't posess.

And Dalek reproduction by cloning doesn't seem to be easy to achieve, as demonstrated in Daleks in Manhattan.

I totally forgot about that. (Admittedly I worked hard for YEARS to forget about Daleks in Manhattan.)

The Daleks must have some sort of normal reproduction mode, one that would allow this sort of mutation to occur.

Of course, it's hard to tell WITHOUT ANY BLOODY PICTURES (COME ON PHILIP MORRIS, WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR, CHRISTMAS? CHRISTMAS 2020??) but I didn't get the impression that the Daleks were 'at it' behind our backs throughout Power of the Daleks...

And if Daleks ARE getting laid all the time, why are they still so BAD-TEMPERED...?

Presumably the Daleks don't have children or the Doctor would have got all teary about them in 'Day of the Doctor'.

Well, presumably the little ones wouldn't have been on the ships attacking Gallifrey.

Which as EVERY DALEK EVER was on the ships attacking Gallifrey (just as every Time Lord was on Gallifrey) is another piece of evidence for there being no Dalek sprogs.

Emily - And if Daleks ARE getting laid all the time, why are they still so BAD-TEMPERED...?
Well, that's assuming they are getting laid all the time and that sex is pleasurable for them. For all we know Davros' genetic engineering took away sexual pleasure for them and they only do it to reproduce (and that might explain their animosity toward their creator ;-).

Also some species only reproduce at certain times of the year not all the time like humans.

Well, presumably the little ones wouldn't have been on the ships attacking Gallifrey.

It could have been Take Your Daughter to Work Day.

(and that might explain their animosity toward their creator ;-).

If they managed to get any hanky-panky in before exterminating Davros I take my hat off to them. What did their diary for the day look like?

1. Birth of entire species.
2. Invade dome, exterminate all Thals.
3. Clamber out of casings for some nookie.
4. Exterminate all Kaleds opposed to Davros.
5. Exterminate all Kaleds in favour of Davros.
6. Exterminate Davros.
7. Start digging way out of bunker.

It could have been Take Your Daughter to Work Day.

Take Your Daughter To Work Days are only necessary for pathetic species who might otherwise chain their daughters to the kitchen sink. The Daleks, whatever their faults, are unlikely to fall into this category.

Take Our Daughters to Work Day.

The feminists tried to start a "Take Our Sons Home Day", but it never got off the ground.

A fan made video about Dalek Caan's adventures prior to meeting him in The Stolen Earth. It is an interesting narrative, although it departs markedly from the Whoniverse's continuity on several points.

Into the Dalek:

So the blue bit on a Dalek's eyestalk is...soft and gooey? Since WHEN!

The Doctor regards the innards of a Dalek as 'the most dangerous place in the universe' since WHEN! I'd rather be inside a Dalek than standing right outside it, frankly.

'We must find our comrade Dalek' - well, haven't THEY come a long way since letting a prisoner escape was cause for a Dalek blowing itself up without any respect for life or comradeship being displayed by itself OR its, um, comrades.

'If I turn one Dalek I can turn them all' - not necessarily, but it's odd the Doctor didn't think to do more in the bombard-the-Daleks-with-trionic-radiation line before scarpering on his merry way.

Also, it's surprising that loads more Daleks didn't get trionic radiation leaks inside their own bodies.

'I see endless divine perfection' - look, even I wouldn't say THAT about peering into the Doctor's mind. Much as I, well, worship him. And surely the only godbothering Daleks came to dust via Rose Bad Wolf Tyler?

Are daleks becoming too powerful for the format?
They can turn people into daleks or dalek-puppets with a nano-cloud, they can 360 their range of fire... we're running into the same problem that necessitated "The Chase"'s bumbling daleks.

Yes, one did get the REALLY strong feeling at the beginning of Asylum of the Daleks that this HAD to be The End for the Doctor, or at least for the format. Dalek agents can find him and his friends anywhere in time and space, grow eyesticks out of their heads and whisk them off to be exterminated? Obviously Moffat realised the problem too, which is why he had the Daleks completely forget about the Doctor's very existence - the only thing that could possibly have saved him. Except that THAT didn't last long...

DWM: 'Cusick approached Pinfield for advice about how to realise the...Daleks...Pinfield suggested he dressed actors in cardboard tubes - a large one for the torso and smaller ones for the arms and legs. He then recommended the finished costume should be sprayed silver' - bless!

'The sucker appendages Cusick had to attach to the ends of their arms when claws proved too expensive' - so THAT'S why!

'We all went along to a viewing room to see the completed episodes. Terry Nation was there...There wasn't any reaction...He just kept glancing at his watch. So afterwards I asked him, "What did you think of the Daleks, Terry?" He said, "Oh, they were alright."'

'Cusick was surprised to hear Nation admit that he had written...The Dalek Invasion of Earth in order to pay for central heating to be installed in his new house.'

TARDIS Eruditorum:

'The Cybermen are the Daleks with unfeeling extermination turned up to eleven, the Ice Warriors are just a variation on the small core of Daleks struggling to survive, and the Silence are just Whitaker's alchemical Daleks for a new generation. Even the Master is just a sexier version of the Dalek shouting "I AM YOUR SERVANT"' - is this TRUE?!

Moffat: 'There's a sink plunger sticking out of a Dalek. And occasionally people, including myself, have thought should we get rid of what is very obviously something you stick down the lav.

What does it do? Nobody knows. Why don't they have two guns? They're capable of two things - killing people and sink plunging. But you can't get rid of them because it would be wrong and awful and heretical.'

So those abomination-Victory-things COULD have been worse after all...

It is not a sink plunger. It is a universal gripper head. We have started creating such devices ourselves.

I BET it was a Who Fan who invented that. Just so we could say 'It is not a sink plunger'...

Weren't there some Daleks that had pincers in place of the sink plunger?

And of course there's the special weapons Dalek, that the other Daleks don't even allow to have a sink plunger (maybe that's why all the sw Daleks are insane ;)).

Weren't there some Daleks that had pincers in place of the sink plunger?

Yeah, and they always looked fundamentally WRONG.

Not as wrong as the Victory Abominations, obviously, but still wrong.

Triumph of a Time Lord: New Who 'has imported...general audience expectation back into the text, making the Daleks more narratively central than they ever were in the classic series. Being revealed as the Time Lords' Time War enemies, these monsters are granted a diegetic pre-eminence that fits the casual viewer's "narrative image" of Who. A non-fan misperception is read back into the series, and literalised' - well, that's one way of looking at it, I suppose, rather than just 'Oh not the bloody Daleks again'.

If I remember what I've read correctly there's a story behind the Daleks with pincers.

The first t.v. Daleks had the plungers and were only used on the show.

When they made the first Cushing film they built new Daleks( with the pincers ) to give better details for their big-screen debut.

Later, when they needed more Daleks on the show they either bought or borrowed the movie Daleks and then used them without change.

Note: If this is right--this would mean that Old Who owes a debt to the Cushing movies(and might make them part of canon).

Of course this is something I read years ago-- so I can't swear to it. I'll try to remember where I saw this so I can double-check it and give proper references on it.

Okay- that didn't take long to find.

The book is "Doctor Who and the Daleks" by John Peel and Terry Nation copyright 1988.

The pincer Daleks were built for the movie-a and there were other differences between them and the t.v. Daleks( if needed you can find out in the book).

I was a little off on their use in the show though: only one(of the 4 given to Terry Nation after the second movie) was used on the t.v. show.

It was borrowed from Terry Nation to be the Supreme Dalek in the Pertwee story "Planet of the Daleks".

I'm forced to say--I don't think I did too badly from memory(nobody's perfect after all).

Not badly at all, I didn't even remember that the Supreme Dalek had stupid PINCERS instead of sacred SINK PLUNGERS.

And no this doesn't make the Cushing Abominations canon!

I’d sooner drink liquid Dalek than drink Dr Pepper.

Witch's Familiar:

'The Doctor does not use weapons' says the Red Dalek. Is that the same Red Dalek who was booming 'The TARDIS is a weapon and must be destroyed' in Journey's End?

Daleks can't die, they're genetically hardwired to keep on living whatever happens? So what happens when we see one hit by a large gun, wriggling its little tentacles pathetically, and going really still?

'Emotion fires the gun' - well then maybe it wasn't a terribly good idea to surgically remove all emotions from your killing-machines? Just sayin'. Also, since WHEN! You wouldn't get more emotional than your first encounter with the Doctor (whether you're human OR Dalek) yet surprisingly few of 'em take one look and just BLAST him.

Why exactly did they feel the need to rebuild their homeworld? Isn't that rather sentimental?

The Daleks should know the doc well enough to know that yes he does use weapons.

As for all the other nits can't we just ignore everything introduced in the Witches familiar? Cause none of it fits with established continuity or makes sense.

Is the winning Mission Dalek entry considered canon? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_rmv2ounJo
If it is then the Supreme Council is back.

Revelation:

'You are to be taken back to Skaro to stand trial for crimes against the Daleks' - what is this weird obsession the Daleks have with the rule of law? And WHAT crimes against the Daleks? You'd have a hard time proving what Davros was up to in Resurrection.

'They will not be destroyed, they will be reconditioned' - you can do that? Why doesn't it happen more often, then, instead of different Dalek factions always trying to kill each other?

'His image does not compute with the known appearance of the Doctor' 'He's regenerated, FOOL!' - yeah, these Daleks REALLY ARE QUITE THICK, aren't they.

And ooh look, there's ONE DALEK left to guard the Oncoming Storm and several others, and it politely keeps its back to them as they plot and hand weapons around.

And considering how many Daleks get their tops blown off in this, why don't see any green bubbling lumps of hate?

'So Davros has finally done it. Daleks that can reproduce anywhere' - as opposed to WHAT, exactly? Daleks that require wining and dining at the most exclusive restaurants before they'll permit themselves to be impregnated?

The Daleks have lost their impact because they're always defeated forever and then they come back....every year.

That's the problem with a baddie like the Daleks. They're just too good to ignore and yet at the same time you risk turning them into lame ducks by having them constantly going down to defeat.

NuWho tried to get rid of them via the Time War but it was never going to happen. Dalek was the first hole in the dam and after that it kind of snowballed. The only real solutions are either to give the Daleks a very long rest (as the original series did with the Cybermen from time to time with varying results, because you either got returns like Revenge of the Cybermen or others like Earthshock)...or be brave, and let the Daleks win now and then. As they did in the aptly named Victory of the Daleks.

It doesn;t help that Nu Who has persistently peddled the "last Daleks in existance...except that one. And those. And the Emperor. And that lot. And those over there..." and tried to inflict conclusive defeats on them.

Whereas the original series tended to shy away from all that, and usually made it plain that the Daleks were being defeated in local schemes or specific nefarious plans, but otherwise remained very much a powerful and active force in the wider universe.

NuWho tried to get rid of them via the Time War but it was never going to happen. Dalek was the first hole in the dam and after that it kind of snowballed.

I'm quite sure that - unlike the Time Lords - Russell T God NEVER intended to cripple Who by ridding it of its best monsters. The BBC fought with Terry Nation's greedy estate for MONTHS for the rights.

let the Daleks win now and then. As they did in the aptly named Victory of the Daleks.

I don't regard 'Completely failing to destroy Earth or the Doctor but managing to run away to live another day' as a victory, myself.

It doesn;t help that Nu Who has persistently peddled the "last Daleks in existance...except that one. And those. And the Emperor. And that lot. And those over there..." and tried to inflict conclusive defeats on them.

Agreed. And at least when Old Who did it, it GENUINELY BELIEVED that Evil WAS the 'Final end'...

I don't regard 'Completely failing to destroy Earth or the Doctor but managing to run away to live another day' as a victory, myself.

It was a better result than what they usually achieve.

The day Doctor Who gets rid of the Daleks for good will be the same day that Batman gets rid of the Joker for good.

In other words, never.

It was a better result than what they usually achieve.

*Sigh* true. You'd think the ultimate killing-machines of the universe would set their sights a bit HIGHER, though.

Still, that time they set their sights on destroying every universe ever was also pretty stupid.

(Um, I mean BEST STORY EVER and all that but what exactly did they expect to DO, afterwards?)

The day Doctor Who gets rid of the Daleks for good will be the same day that Batman gets rid of the Joker for good.

In other words, never.

At some point (curse The Moff's mother-in-law!) they might have to tell the Terry Nation Estate to •••• off with their extortionate demands and their stupid pepperpot robots.

Just for a few years, anyway.

We survived the Evil/Day interlude perfectly well (admittedly most of us weren't BORN then, which does help), we'd survive that too...

Um, I mean BEST STORY EVER and all that but what exactly did they expect to DO, afterwards?

Scary thought. Maybe they were planning on rebuilding everything in their image.

Rebuilding with WHAT? Weren't planets and stars and suchlike also reduced to dust?

The Dalek defeats in the original run were frequently a bit lacking.

Yeah, one does wonder if EVERY Dalek on Earth happened to be in the Bedford saucer when the volcano erupted. If not, Earth was definitely celebrating its independence somewhat prematurely and if so, WHY and HOW (miniaturisation)?

Rebuilding with WHAT? Weren't planets and stars and suchlike also reduced to dust?

The Doctor recreated a whole universe in The Big Bang, with just an exploding TARDIS and the Pandorica. I'm sure the Daleks could have come up with something similar.

The Doctor was VERY VERY LUCKY he happened to have an exploding TARDIS, Pandorica etc about his person. There's not a chance in hell the Daleks would be so fortunate, they never get those sort of breaks.

Winnie-the-Pooh exterminated by Daleks... only since he is stuffing, not organs, he doesn't die!

To hell with Winnie-the-Pooh, but I'll keep an eye open to see if Iris Wildthyme's Panda has any thinly-disguised-for-copyright-reasons run-ins with the metal meanies.

Yeah, one does wonder if EVERY Dalek on Earth happened to be in the Bedford saucer when the volcano erupted.

Didn't they all have dishes in their back, to pick up power broadcast from the saucer? No saucer means no power supply, and they all go dormant.

SURELY they must have used more than ONE flying saucer to keep Earth subdued cos that would just be EMBARRASSING for humanity.

Twice Upon a Time:

DALEKS have a better databank than the Matrix on Gallifrey? Look, I'm not exactly the Time Lords' Number One Fan but jeez, if the Daleks' database is THAT great, Oswin shouldn't have been able to delete THE DOCTOR from it in two seconds flat. (Mind you, didn't Romana get the Matrix destroyed during one of her catastrophically ghastly periods as President in the Gallifrey audios? That might help explain why it's such •••• these days, though mercifully nothing ELSE about said audios has been canonised.)

And Rusty decided to set himself up at the centre of the universe WHY, exactly?

And couldn't you have got the info from ANY Dalek's brain? Like Matt did about the Silence in Wedding Of.

'You're a bit of a legend these days, but not everyone believes it. People don't think that it could happen. That someone like you could turn against your own kind, because your kind don't do that' - WHAT! Have darling Alpha, Beta and Omega been RUTHLESSLY FORGOTTEN? Well, not by ME they haven't!

'You know what? You are the very first Dalek that ever got naked for me' - Ooh, what a big fat lie, Hartnell was whipping Daleks out of their shells back as far as The Daleks, for heaven's sake. Is Capaldi trying to foster a sense of sexual intimacy with Rusty or WHAT!

RUSTY: You taught me to hate the Daleks.
DOCTOR: Billions of years ago. - BILLIONS! Are you ••••••• KIDDING me! Why haven't you just crawled off into the nearest sewer to DIE! -
What have you been up to since then?
RUSTY: Destroying Daleks.
DOCTOR: Yes, all the ones who come here to murder you. Yes, I saw the mess outside. - What, the distinctly ALIVE-looking swarms of Daleks, you mean?

'You know what? You are the very first Dalek that ever got naked for me' - Ooh, what a big fat lie, Hartnell was whipping Daleks out of their shells back as far as The Daleks, for heaven's sake.

Yeah, but THOSE Daleks didn't do it willingly, unlike Rusty.

Well, Rose's pet did it willingly...

It didn't do it for HIM, his presence there was quite incidental.

Stuff n'nonsense, the presence of the destroyer of your entire species can never be incidental when you decide to do a striptease...

When's the last time we heard their other 60s catchphrase, 'I OBEY!'? They used to say that all the time.

The Pandorica Opens.

What did the Dalek say to the omelet?

EGGSTERMINATE!

Have you heard the Daleks have brought out a new facial scrub? EXFOLIATE!!

Anyway on a less punny note check this out. Someone has listened to Jubilee, what do the Daleks do when they win?

Note there is one incidence of bad language in the video

https://youtu.be/s2lh0RXxNEY

Ah, I wasn't thinking of Jubilee, I was thinking of Davros's genius plan to destroy EVERY UNIVERSE EVER...after which there couldn't even be any hats...

Yeah I thought it would bring that to mind but I think Jubilee was the first story, visual or audio to point out that the Daleks would have no purpose after final victory.

Would the Daleks still have the dozen or so planets they stole after they destroyed all the universes? If so that’s a lot of resources for making hats.

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THIS IS A QUOTE

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"Late season seven and early season eight were obviously dalek heavy and that is bringing out one of my absolute hates about the Daleks. Everyone shoots toy guns at them that do •••• all. Yeah fair enough if its humans from the 21st century (though that gets old) but then you get Time Lords and the Anti Dalek resistence similarly completely inept against them. I know its their thing to be unstoppable until the Doctor asspulls but it gets really old just seeing people stand around shooting guns that do nothing at Daleks who steadily mow down the opposition and its in universe completely inexcusable when we see in the early seasons that Dalek killing weaponry is not exactly rare and the older series having the Daleks be fairly killable to any advanced civilization.


So why do people who spent centuries fighting the Daleks •••• so massively that they don't bother arming themselves? I really think the Daleks are worthless villains because they just get wanked and wanked and wanked against foes who are seemingly uniquely illsuited to fighting them and then the Doctor pulls something."

MANDY valiantly attempting to salvage SOMETHING from those Victory of the Daleks abominations:

More room for the operator though.

Dalek operator in DWM: 'They're roomy inside, though, which in a way is quite comfortable, but it does mean you have to almost stand up in order to move them along' - oh gods it's WORSE for the operators as well as for the misfortunates who actually have to LOOK at them...'The gun-stalk and the sucker arm are that much higher, so you can't really grasp them with the same level of ease that you could in the other ones. They're sort of user-unfriendly inside, let's say' - *heavy sigh*

Moffat's folly.

Well, you can sort of understand being such an excited fanboy and having so many things to do when single-handedly saving Who from destruction and having such faith in your hitherto-brilliant Production Team that you somehow miss the painfully obvious fact that THE NEW DALEKS ARE •••• but at least the guy listens to FEEDBACK. We only ever saw The Abominations again when they were fossilled or lurking behind loads of BETTER Daleks and never, ever did their bulging bottoms get to offend our eyest - eyeballs...

I've wondered why every story from Genesis onwards featured Davros. Didn't the producers realise that they were diluting the value of the programme's most famous monsters? Was there some agreement with Terry Nation that said Davros had to be in all of them?

Probably because screenwriters like writing confrontation scenes between the hero and villain and such scenes work best with humanoids.

Daleks don't have faces to emote with, their vocal range is limited and their usual reaction to someone arguing with them is "EX-TER-MIN-ATE!"

In the event of an actual Dalek invasion, they would be defeated not by the Doctor but by planning procedures:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/21/exterminate-man-incurs-wrath-of-council-overlords-with-dalek-shed

The Tenth Doctor was right, humans ARE the real monsters...

If Daleks started off only exterminating bureaucrats, the rest of the human race would be cheering them on.

But then they'd run out of bureaucrats and turn their gunsticks and plungers on the rest of us... *sigh*

Well this is an interesting analysis of Terry Nation's personal Daleks, and some of the places they showed up.

Yeah, not THAT interesting, to be honest.

I mean, I pride myself on my fanaticism, but even I have to admit there are limits...

Cruel but...pretty accurate.

Genesis of the Remembrance

Ouch!

The Daleks are supremely overrated, more of a popular culture icon than a serious enemy. Used too often with consequently weakish stories, Need to be rested...

No, just need RTG to come back with His whispery Dalek politicians negotiating with Time Lords DAMMIT WE WERE ROBBED...

From The Dalek Handbook:

Mike Tucker: 'One of the first things that Russell said to us was "You need to make this look the most Daleky Dalek that's ever been seen - find all the bits that you like, whether they be from the films, the TV series, the comic strips, the books... Whatever you find that you think has worked, put them on the new Dalek!"' - need Him baaaaaaaaaack...

Matt Savage on seeing the RTG Dalek he designed for the first time: 'I genuinely felt like I was 10 years old again...We went round a corner, and there it was - my first reaction was to run' - BLESS! 'In terms of the original design, we didn't alter anything. We were standing on the shoulders of giants' - now if only MOFFAT'S designers had had a fraction of this sanity...instead of going with Gatiss's 'very keen that the Daleks reflected the 1960s movie ones' insanity...'There was about a month spent on the redesign, submitting one version, getting feedback, tweaking it, and looking at the scale, to arrive at something that everyone was very enthusiastic and excited about' - oh you poor deluded morons.

Re Evolution of the Daleks: To preserve the Daleks' anonymity, 'The Cult of Skaro were referred to as "Enemies 1, 2, 3 and 4" to avoid giving their identity away to extras and onlookers. During location shooting...everyone had a script saying "Enemy", the flying Daleks were to be added in post-production...All was going to plan, until the crowd-scene extras were told: "For your sightline, can you look up in the sky at this, please?" as a cardboard Dalek on a stick was held aloft for all to see...' - hahaha!

'The ultimate Dalek goal is to be the sole creature in existence, to return to the state they were in before the Doctor first arrived on Skaro' - THANK you! That kinda makes sense and very nearly explains their hitherto craaaazy idea to bore the pants off themselves by destroying EVERYTHING else in the universe(s)...

Have you covered this book in the Reference books thread, Emily?

Just curious.

I have now.

That was quick!

I think the Daleks were around a lot, but they did get a lot of time off for bad behaviour in the 70s.

Tony Blair - "Well, we would stop the Dalek invasion, but Brussels has passed new legislation stating that any attempt to do so would be obstructing the Dalek's human right to bloodthirsty conquest"

Daleks not being human, I don't see how that would be relevant.

The EU has laws on animal sentience that we need to re-pass along with a few million other laws before we Brexit and die. I s'pose they might apply to Daleks, at a push.

William Hague - "Well, of course, I was a Dalek killer in my early days...
I'd go out before I went into the pub for my 14 pints and my army of fans
and I'd slaughter Daleks..."

"Probably no science fiction monster has ever caused as much interest and excitement as the famous Daleks."

Not even Frankenstein? (The original science fiction monster.)

that's from 1972's "The Making of Doctor Who" (the first edition, largely written by Malcolm Hulke).

The Dance of the Daleks

Was watching a YouTube video when I realized that it actually connects to the Time War and the Time Lords devious ways of communicating with their agents. ;-)

Battle Dalek:
https://tinyurl.com/yautby96

Eek, the sight of that thing practically turned ME into a Dalek, shrieking about extermination and racial purity...

The Daleks invariably lose. The more times they come up against the Doctor and lose, the weaker they seem.

Maybe little kids think it's great, but as a kid you'd think Hulk Hogan vs The Ultimate Warrior should be on every week and that Hogan should win every time. Except when he does, you might as well put up some jobber against him.

Dalek in The Mikado!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2p0kZ_oo0M&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR1JMnWAw6LJKo4BIW6e2NdqNPDnQwxTOBFdu6k7pdLHFvAQWAx-ZJvUARw

Of course, every production of EVERYTHING should have a Dalek in it.

Even if the poor dear looked rather confused - all those flashing lights on its dome...

It also looks better than Resolution's Recon scout, let's face it.

Which Dalek Are You?

I'm the Emperor Dalek. I don't think that's remotely appropriate ('A true leader of armies, the face of the mighty Dalek Empire, you are truly unstoppable! Although confident and often grandstanding, you are bred for war and the ultimate conquest of the entire galaxy') but as long as I'm not the big-bottomed plastic abominations I won't complain...

Apparently, I am the Emperor Dalek too. There can be only one, so just stand still while I exterminate you.

I am the one - true - em - per - or! Obey me! Obey me! Your Emperor is ordering you. You will not fight in here! You will not fight in here! Obey! I am your Emperor! Daleks, obey me! Obey! Obey!

I got scientist Dalek.

*Pouts* What makes YOU so much smarter and less megalomaniac than the rest of us...

"EXTERMINATE!" in 30 Different Languages!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR1mHhR5195oXc2yyH0zcO53cyr4CvJV7Do5KGQdw_CiaflkV-9DtERjM3A&v=CeAm5EJF6Ww&feature=youtu.be

"Difodi"

Do the Daleks refer to the Tardis make as a "Type Difodi" ;-)

?????????

If you watch the video "difodi" is the Welsh version, but the person saying it sounded like they were sayin 'difordi',Tim, hence my attempt at a joke.

Revolution:

Dalek consciousness can live within the tiniest fragment of their DNA since WHEN!

LEO: It's beautiful, isn't it?
ROBERTSON: No! Are you insane? That's the most disgusting thing I've ever seen in my life. - Well, QUITE. Did the Dalek-creature maybe hypnotise Leo? Have they ever shown any signs of being capable of that before? If they WERE capable of that, why bother with making all that tea...?

*Gazes adoringly at the bronze darlings* - RTG was just BETTER at everything wasn't He.

GRAHAM: But they're going to kill more humans.
DOCTOR: They don't care about humans. They're the enforcers of the Dalek race. - But come ON, they'd still like to exterminate a few people, surely? Just for fun?

GRAHAM: But they're going to kill more humans.
DOCTOR: They don't care about humans. They're the enforcers of the Dalek race. - But come ON, they'd still like to exterminate a few people, surely? Just for fun?

a) I don't think they'd care about who gets caught in the crossfire, so yeah, lots of extra victims.

b) Once they are done wiping out the impure Daleks, they probably would signal the main Dalek empire that here be a nice juicy planet ripe for conquest.

Just because humans forget about the Daleks after each invasion (even Adam), doesn't mean the Daleks have forgotten the existence of Earth.

Or wait. Does it?

I don't think they'd care about who gets caught in the crossfire, so yeah, lots of extra victims.

So basically the Doctor was just pretending no humans would get slaughtered by the Daleks she summoned, in order to salvage her conscience.

Well, that's some sort of progress since she slaughtered half Atlantis/Vulcan guards/archaeologists/Macra for fun when she was Troughton, I suppose...

Just because humans forget about the Daleks after each invasion (even Adam), doesn't mean the Daleks have forgotten the existence of Earth.

Or wait. Does it?

I don't think ALL those Dalek Invasions of Earth went down the Crack, but maybe when their memories of the Doctor got wiped in Asylum their memories of Earth went with him - it's not like they usually bother invading when s/he's not around (it's like the Master, are they just doing it to attract her/his attention? Maybe arriving ten years early in the Hartnell Era was just an accident)...

A bit of light Dalek comedy.

Asylum of the Daleks:

'First, there were the Daleks. And then, there was a man who fought them' - is that TRUE? I know the Daleks made the Doctor (Capaldi: 'I called myself the Doctor but it was just a name. And then I went to Skaro. And then I met you lot and I understood who I was! The Doctor was not the Daleks!') and I kinda assumed the reverse was also true. I mean, one minute the Daleks are harmlessly static-ing around their city carving statues but one glimpse of Hartnell and they're suddenly attempting to nuke Skaro and flying off to conquer the universe in general and Earth in particular...so it's more of a chicken-and-egg situation than FIRST there were the Daleks and THEN there was the Doctor...

'Nobody escapes the Dalek camps' - I can think of several of your Companions offhand who did - Liv, Romana, Barbara and Ian...

'Amelia Pond is required' - gods, even the DALEKS have the decency to give her her own name instead of stomping her into the dirt with this 'Williams' rubbish...

It's astonishing, with this level of abilities to take over/locate/kidnap ANYONE AT ALL, that the Daleks just...don't bother to use 'em after Time of the Doctor.

Don't remember the Dalek Parliament being mentioned before. Or since.

The Dalek asylum is a LEGEND, even to the Doctor? No wonder the Time Lords did so badly in the Time War, they just didn't bother doing any RESEARCH.

DALEK PM: It is offensive to us to extinguish such divine hatred.
DOCTOR: Offensive?
DALEK PM: Does it surprise you to know the Daleks have a concept of beauty?
DOCTOR: I thought you'd run out of ways to make me sick. Hello again. You think hatred is beautiful.
DALEK PM: Perhaps that is why we have never been able to kill you. - That's...well...a beautiful excuse.

DOCTOR: How many Daleks are in there?
DARLA: A count has not been made. Millions, certainly. - You'd think Daleks would keep better records, somehow.

'How'd he get all Daleked?' - let us pause to admire the invention of a new, um...verb?

'Hang on to scared. Scared isn't Dalek.' - Really Doc, cos not only was Eccy saying 'You might've removed all your emotions but I reckon right down deep in your DNA, there's one little spark left, and that's fear. Doesn't it just burn when you face me?' but EARLIER IN THE EPISODE you were saying 'You're all too scared to go down there. Not one of you will go, so tell me, what do the Daleks do when they're too scared?'

Capaldi: 'I called myself the Doctor but it was just a name. And then I went to Skaro. And then I met you lot and I understood who I was! The Doctor was not the Daleks!'

A good line, and it's better than 'The Doctor was not a caveman,' but it's more continuity for Chibnal and the Jo Martin Doctor to muck up.

Actually, the Doctor having THAT strong a reaction to the Daleks would make MORE sense if some ancient non-memories briefly surfaced. I mean, OK, they're not NICE but there are plenty of novels and audios set pre-Unearthly Child where monsters do worse than attempting to obliterate some really annoying sexist Thals...

Having listened to Mutually Assured Destruction and some other bits of the Time Lord Victorious series, I’d like to point out how much of a shame it was that the multicoloured Daleks were so badly designed, as Time Lord Victorious shows how much you can do with different personalities. Strategist, Scientist, Executioner, Supreme etc.

Blimey, you actually REMEMBER anything about Time Lord Victorious...

*Checks own review*

'Sadly, it turns out that bickering-Daleks are about as interesting as bickering-Dominators' - oh. I guess I disagree with you...

Mutually Assured Destruction was advertised as Die Hard on a Dalek spaceship. How could I possibly pass that up?

Power of the Daleks:

'I offer you the key to the destruction of the Daleks...I no longer believe in the Dalek mission...The Dalek machine was created to ensure the survival of the Kaled race. Yet Kaled identity has eroded over time. The Dalek mission has changed to become the perpetuation of the Dalek race. Analysis concludes we have lost the right to survive...I offer you the chance to destroy every Dalek' - I don't see why your mission evolving over time* means you've lost the right to EXIST. I also don't understand why this thought suddenly occurs to this particular Dalek when Caan had to dance and die a thousand times for it to belatedly occur to HIM. It's a pity this was just a throwaway to get the Doctor captured and stuck in a Dalek casing (a bit of a damp squib after you've seen her TURNED INTO A WEEPING ANGEL) instead of being explored in a episode of its own.

*Well, about two minutes after the creation of the Daleks, anyway. In fact, BEFORE said creation if you believe the I, Davros audios - the first successful Dalek mutant being a Thal...

December 21 2023 marks the 60th anniversary of the Daleks.

Nonsense, they've been on Earth since at least...um...whenever-Resolution-was...