Moderator's Note: This is Mike's original Davros summary:

The introduction of Davros reinvented the history of the Daleks, and gave that evil race a face. His best appearance was his first, in "Genesis of the Daleks", though he was pretty creepy in "Resurrection of the Daleks."



I was watching the original Star Trek story The Menagerie and when my girlfriend saw the original Enterprise captain, Christopher Pike, with the scarred face in the large wheelchair, she immediately said "He looks a bit like Davros". Now I wonder... could the production team have got the inspiration from there.
Mind you, someone once described something as cadaverous to me - a cadaver being a dead body, of course, and I guess that Davros might be an abbreviation of this as he is an embodiment of the living dead.

I think Davros owes more to Doctor Strangelove than Capt. Pike. Remember Strangelove's rebellious arm? I know Davros' arm never gave an impromptu Nazi salute, but maybe that cos his bad arm was the one inside the mobile unit.

Who do you think was the better Davros: Michael Wisher, David Gooderson or Terry Molloy?

The first is usually regarded the best in almost anything, so I'm going for Michael Wisher. The others merely built on what was already there.

Michael Wisher was the best actor, but I always thought Terry Molloy had the best Davros mask and make-up.

CBC: That's an interesting comment given many regard Tom Baker as the best Doctor, even though he was the fourth. So I wonder: what will the fourth Davros be like?

At this rate there'll NEVER be another Davros...*sob*.

What I want to know is why Davros didn't program the Daleks with any loyalty to him. This is the man who had just betrayed his entire race! Did he think the Daleks would automatically be faithful to him because he was their daddy? According to that not very convincing explanation in Destiny, he suspected treachery - so why not overcome it by programming them with a simple 'Davros-is-God-we-must-obey-him'?

Using the Dalek logic, wouldn't Davros have been more useful to them alive? At least as a prisoner.

Davros must have just programmed them with a lot of arrogance - We are the supreme beings of the universe (etc etc etc) and therefore everyone else is inferior and useless, including this wizened shrieky creature. Or maybe they simply didn't like him. There's a great scene in The Also People about that:

'Davros, Davros,' moaned the Dalek. 'Get into an argument with a human and they always bring up Davros. Look, do you think we _like_ the misshapen little monomaniac? We've tried to do away with him more times than the Doctor has.'

Funny, though, that the brand new Daleks should be so happy to destroy their creator, whilst thousands (?) of years later, a civil war breaks out on his behalf when the Dalek Prime puts him on trial.

The Daleks were fairly intelligent, if power mad, creatures. Born to a life in a tin can, I suppose they would eventually resent Davros. As far as Davros not genetically program them for loyalty, maybe there isn't a loyalty gene, or after mating with other Daleks (I don't even want to know how that is done) they evolved to the point where they don't do Davros's bidding, anymore. He is, after all, an incomplete Dalek, and they hate anything that isn't a Dalek.

Concerning Dalek mating rituals, I wonder if they go around yelling "PROPAGATE! PROPAGATE!" or a similiar sounding word that starts with an 'F'.

But again, I really do not want to know or imagine how they do 'it', so to speak.

Aren't they just grown in tanks?

One thing: why is Davros evolving the Kaled race anyway? This question is vastly overlooked! Here we have a bunkered community in which weapons on their side and the Thals have degenerated into slings and bows, and Davros is basically preparing his people for nuclear annihilation. If Davros can render Kaled-blobs immune to radiation, (which he can't because, as their very first story shows, they are not immune and see the Thal antidote as the Holy Grail), then why can't he merely genetically alter his people? If, obviously, it is the shell of the eventual Dalek that is radiation-proof, which it must be, then why the need to firstly scale his people down into Kaled-blobs to then put them into travel machines? Why the extreme genetics? Why not simply build glorified bubble cars for humanoids? There is simply no need to alter the Kaled form and at the planning stage, some scientist must've turned to him and say: "But why...?"

The Kaled people were eventually going to evolve inot the blobs anyway (or so Davros reckoned). he just speeded things up.

Yes, but I don't see how Davros sold that idea to the rest of the scientists. HE may have liked the prospect of his entire race being turned into green blobs and shoved into metal containers, but most of the Kaleds seemed to want to keep the race pure - anyone who wasn't physically perfect was kicked out into the wasteland. Let's face it, Daleks aren't exactly a picture of Aryan perfection.

Luiner, I would understand if the Daleks had gradually evolved a hatred for their Creator, but he is exterminated by Daleks who are only a few days old. As regards propagation, I'm absolutely sure they are grown in tanks. Christmas on a Rational Planet mentions that all Daleks come from male genetic material, because Davros felt that women had insufficient desire to conquer the universe (fat lot he knows).

PJW--I think the radiation problem on Skaro comes from centuries of nuclear warfare. Even though the current state of armaments may have degenerated to slings and arrows, the whole planet is contaminated from fallout (and probably biological fallout too). Even by the time of "The Dead Planet" Skaro has pockets of radioactive waste.

Davros also seems like the type of manager that doesn't take a lot of cr*p from his subordinants. If one of his employees decided to disagree with him, I suspect that employee would be terminated (and I don't mean with two weeks pay!).

Yeah, yeah, as soon as I wrote the above bit, I realized that Daleks are a bunch of test tube babies. But still, I like the idea that they somehow contributed the genetic material. Why spend time and money genetically program each individual Dalek, when they can get it for free from donor Daleks?

I agree with you, Emily. When it comes to neo fascists, like the Daleks, a certain female British Prime Minister does come to mind. And after playing soccer here (in the States women play a lot of it) I realized that women have no problem fouling me. Viscious is the word that seems appropriate.

And when you get right down to brass tacks. Males in the human race have an X chromosome. If it weren't for the incomplete Y chromosome we get from our fathers, us guys would be, well, gals.

Michael Wisher was the BEST Davros...best make-up & voice.

Davros doesn't believe in life on other planets, at least according to what that 'Davros is never wrong' Kaled tells the Doctor. So why does he programme his new race with the desire to conquer the universe?

Davros is lying to the Kaleds, obviously.

Why bother? The Kaleds are so thick that they can say 'We must keep the race pure' in the same breath as declaring that they're about to become green blobs. And they're so militaristic that a rousing cry of 'Today Skaro - tomorrow the universe!' would probably boost morale.

Does anyone else find it vaguely bizzare that Davros's condition/appearance is never explained? In the 'Universal Databank', it's said he was in a bunker when a bomb dropped on top - this may be said in the novelisation (i can't remember) but it certainly isn't mentioned in the television story. I don't seem to remember there being any reference at all to the fact that he looks completely alien compared to the other Kaleds.

I don't think I ever had a thought that Davros was anything but a native of Skaro. Then you had to mention the obvious. Now I have to rethink everything.

With the Kaleds fascist xenophobia of mutants, there is something weird going on here. Davros is the preeminent scientist, who all Kaleds rever and accept his explanation that their is no life in outer space without question. Yet he looks nothing like them. Doesn't look much like the mutants. He looks completely alien. Maybe he was disfigured in a attack by the enemy, or maybe that was a cover story to protect his identity. Crippled after a spaceship crash, maybe? Instead of being killed, he is pressed into the Kaled war effort. Not much liking his situation he creates a new race that will untimately beat both warring parties, and end up conquering much of the universe.

Certainly he is not worried about Kaled purity. He shows contempt for his comrades. It seems he using the Kaleds resources for his own means. In Revelation of the Daleks he evens uses human tissue to create a new race of Daleks. This doesn't sound like a racial purist Kaled to me.

I have to watch this story again, because I can't remember if Davros ever knew the Doctor was from off world. If he did, it didn't faze him.

The other Kaled scientists seemed to think alien life was highly unlikly as their 'beloved' Davros had told them so.
It really is quite strange that they made Davros look like that but never ever gave an explanation of it. I don't think he is alien, as he seems to be biologically related to the Daleks in 'Resurrection', what with the Movellan virus and all.

Lunier, I got the impression that Davros was both very old, and very scarred from some unspecified accident. As to why the Kaleds accepted him in spite of his purity stance, just remember the Hitle promoted the idea of the Aryan race (blond, blue-eyed giants), but he was 5'6" brunette. Don't expect dictators to make a lot of sense.

It never occurred to me that Davros was particularly old - I thought he was all, um, wrinkled because of the accident. Some kind of biological weapon, perhaps, as well as a bunker falling on him? It's not surprising that the Kaleds made strenuous efforts to save him, as he appears to be the only member of their race with anything remotely resembling a brain (I don't mean to insult those noble Kaled scientists who gave their lives to oppose his tyranny, but for heaven's sake! Imagine telling your plans to NYDER of all people!) What IS odd is that the Kaleds succeeded in saving a half (or three-quarters) dead Davros, when presumably he was in no state to tell them HOW to keep him breathing.

Luiner, Davros accepted the Doctor as being an alien, alright. In fact, he adapted SO fast to the revelation of life on other planets that he spent many happy hours blackmailing the future of the Dalek conquest of the universe out of the Doctor.

Certainly, Davros seems to be particulary long lived (not to mention lucky to be alive with everybody including the Daleks wanting to kill him) after our introduction to him.

So what happen to all the geniuses who managed to save him. Or did he have to take care of his own medical treatment, waiting idly for Kaled technology to create an artificial eye on his forehead, and the high tech wheelchair, probably based on his own patents?

And like I said, Davros wasn't too picky about what to use as biological resource for his Daleks. Be it Kaled, Human, Timelord, or for all I know Sontaron, his idea was for perfect Daleks, not perfect Kaleds. Maybe he was trying to invent a race somewhat similar to his own image.

There is a similarity to Genesis and Revelation, where he works primarily to improve his Daleks, while throwing a bone to his employers once in a while. Is Genesis the true start of his career, or in the middle? By accepting there is life on other worlds, he was either extremely intelligent (not in doubt) or lying to the Kaleds.

If I were to write a book for the BBC, I wonder if they would let me throw in Davros at the begining of the Cybermen evolution. Both Daleks and Cybermen have a organic brain in an mechanized body. It would not take a great leap to imagine he was instrumental in both. Just a matter of what came first. The Cybermen seemed to be more advanced, but Davros may have been part of a team of scientists who went on his own way after falling out with his comrades.

I don't know.

Don't worry, Emily, I won't write a DrWho book, there are already more than enough people ready to do that. Though it would be funny if you were forced to recognize my writings as 'Canon'.

Davros news!

WH Smith are planning to release a Davros video box set in September comprising ALL (yes ALL!) the stories to feature the Sid James-faced leader of the Daleks, Davros! It's just a crying pity that they chose to release a set of stories linked by possibly their weakest component: Davros himself. They might as well release the Pertwee ones too and call it the Dalek box set. It'd be more marketable.

That is great news for you Brits, but hasn't all the Davros videos been released by the BBC, already?

Channel 4 had one of their s t u p i d 'top ten' programmes last week, on TV villains, in which Davros came in at number eight. EIGHT!!! Have they no RESPECT? None of their other bloody villains tried conquering the universe! (As I know having watched every minute of it, waiting for the Master to appear at number one, and...he didn't. Which is weird, because I'd have thought he, not Davros, was the Doctor's arch-enemy.)

Oh, and the cretins thought Davros DIED in Resurrection of the Daleks!!!

Sounds like shoddy research and an obvious lack of knowledge about the programme in general. No Master? That's bloody crazy!
Who were the other villians mentioned in the top ten?

Um. You know, I can't really remember. They were all from programmes I'd never heard of. Oh, except that there was some kid from Grange Hill (coming in tenth, which was just as well - had Davros been considered less scary than HIM I'd have had to avenge the insult by killing someone). And that JR person from Dynasty or Dallas or something was top. I think. And there was some woman from some woman-in-prison drama. And someone from some kind of soap opera. Basically NONE of them accidentally wiped out half the universe OR had a tissue compressor eliminator, or an evil laugh, or ANYTHING. God, I hate Channel 4's we-can't-be-bothered-to-make-any-TV-so-let's-have-another-compilation-programme attitude. They had a top ten sci-fi shows the other week, which thank god I missed, but which I still learnt Who came SECOND in!!! Second to those TREKKIES!!!!!!!!!! How can we live with the shame?

Does anybody even respect Channel 4's list? I was in England during the Grange Hill days. How some character even made it into the top ten is beyond my understanding.

Inaccurate Quote from the Young Ones "We're the only school in the UK where we don't even say the word F**k."

The fact the Master wasn't even number one is a travesty. And what about the Vogon Constructor Fleet, they don't even rate?

I beleive that the Kaled's underworld thinktank also had Stalinist elements or wings of their structure and also semiDemocratic ones with thinkers such as Ronson and Garmen but were purged slowing down scientific process
leaving creatures much like Mengla or stalin's Yesenko remaining such as Davros
These earlier scientist may once had helped build the life support machine for Davros
but once they were out of the way
In Genesis of the Daleks Davros tells Nyder of factions that existed fifty years before and their failure and that history would repeat itself
perhaps their own desruction was remaking Davros
and not being his original self but now a cripple they felt at ease only to be stabbed in the back

Davros must have been brought back from a vegetative state unable to hear or see and barely speak even with a microphone he sounds like someone with throat cancer
in many ways he was a preDalek
and like many dictators or despot Emperors
his mind was crippled
I think he was a product or puppet of Skaro's socialdarwinist past and he was preventing peace-freedom and the birth of democracy
But over the decades he began to beleive he could make machines to desroy the intellectually weak as he thought free thinkers were
and convert scientists to his own ideals
this proved to fail in his mind
so he just used the Kaleds as his hands and legs to help him create his darkest thoughts into a moving machine

I think that Davros survived the Daleks total destruction in 'Rememberance of the Daleks'
Everyone saw him escape.
But Davros was just head and shoulders, wasn't he in that sad final episode.
would he eventually evolve into just a memory.

Wasn't he just a head by the time of Remembrance?

Hard to tell. His body could have been buried inside all that machinery.

I,m sure I saw a comic in which Davros looked as The Emperor in EVIL.
And Paul Mcgann was the Doctor.
And presumably Davros was immobile and connected to a cable system therefore being a Dalek Nerve Centre,just as the Emperor was in Troughten's EVIL.
But wasn't Skaro Atomised in 63 during the climax of Remembrance ?

I once fancied an idea where Davros and his escape pod land in the Jupiterain System.
And froze on Europa but diccovered and moved to the moon Voga.
Where he was revived to cause trouble.
He remakes dead Vogons as Daleks.
And he studies corpses of Cybermen.
I know it could never happen.

A bartender I know looks and sounds like Davros

Check out his website: www.davross.com.au - I wonder, chance or coincidence?

That site has got to be the scariest thing I've seen in a long while.

Davros as business consultant? Run for the hills!

The davross website was a bit scary
But what if there was a Davros foundation for dalek funeral homes

I read an expression used by Ancient Romans about the Emperor Trajan
stating that he was born before The Kaleds of March and not The Ides of March
Does Kaled mean something in English or Latin

Talking of history
I beleive Davros to be a composite of Mengle and Dr Imshy
Imshy a Japanese Soldier Scientist during WW2 believed he could create a BLACK DEATH BOMB to bombard the U.S
He worked in occupied Chinese Manchuria
and he regarded the Manchurians as not worthy of life
At the same time Mengle was stitching limb transplants killing both patients in the process

But I think Solon was doing the same for Morbius

At least Solon was working alone (well, apart from one half-wit who didn't realise what he was doing.) Davros managed to carry virtually the whole Kaled elite with him for his charming experiments. Until the Doctor turned up, of course.

It's 'Kalends', I'm afraid, Anonymous. It means the first of the month.

Re:anon's comments
The person he's referring to was a Doctor Ishii, who headed the infamous Unit 731, of the Japanese army during the late 30's/mid 40's
Unit 731 delevoped various biological weapons including anthrax, in contravention of the Geneva Convention (which Japan was a signatory to).
Unit 731 tested it's weapons on the KMT army & possibly U.S prisoners of war during its
operational lifetime.
He was captured by the U.S Army, but managed to avoid a war crimes trial, because the data on bioweapons he had researched, was Far too useful, to the U.S Biowar Programme !
He later became the head of a major Japanese medical corporation, Green Cross , & Died in the mid 1990's of old age!

I thought Michael Wisher's Davros was the best, but he was aided by a very good script which had an ideal place for Davros in it.

As for Davros not planning loyalty to him into the Daleks', I think it was ego/arrogance/overconfidence. When they turn on him, he's surprised, he just assumed they'd think highly of him.

I agree that Michael Wisher's Davros was the best. Terry Malloy has a tendancy to overact the role.

Overconfidence is a big problem for villains - Davros hasn't learnt about life on other planets for more than 2 minutes before he's planning on conquering 'em all - but surely he should have stopped and thought 'Hmm...' before programming the Daleks with an attitude towards all non-green-blob lifeforms that was something along the lines of 'Inferior race! Exterminate! Exterminate! Exterminate!'

when I heard that the last Davros was a regular judge on the RUMPOLE OF THE BAILEY
I unfortunately wished him to be that Gastak Captian in MEGLOS,who was also refered to as The Mad Bull in RUMPOLE , but he was the Northener Judge that was a fan of Coronation Street
He was also the Boss of Morse in Inspector Morse

what was the name of the Thal chick that helped Tom Baker

To which episode are you referring--"The Dead Planet" or "Genesis of the Daleks?"

I'm not sure how you spell it, but she was Betan. (Bettan?) Typical - there's only one Thal woman on the entire planet and SHE has to do all the work - blowing up Dalek bunkers, etc...

That, ahem, 'Thal chick' in The Daleks (or The Dead Planet if you insist) not only didn't help Tom Baker, she didn't help ANYONE. She just whinged about needing more MEN!

Mike was right about another Thal babe
She was in the first Dalek story
she was jealous of Susan an her Intended

Was'nt the Thal girl in "The Dead Planet" called Dyoni ?

Ah. That would explain why I always find myself screaming 'Dy! Dy!' whenever she appears on screen...

So during the Doctor's long recitations of Dalek victories and defeats in Genesis, did Davros never think to ask where HE was in all this (I'm assuming the Doctor didn't know about Davros's little escapades in Destiny, Resurrection, Revelation, Remembrance cos he certainly seemed surprised every time). Was Davros satisfied to die peacefully of old age and let his creations get on with it? I _don't_ think so.

No, as his (Godlike) Ego was being massaged at the time, & as a result he assumed that he was automatically in all of them, as their leader ...?

Naturally any failures,of the Dalek's were due to the incompetance of his Underlings, & the failure to "Obey" his Orders correctly !

SPOILERS FOR JOURNEY'S END:

'This is my ultimate victory - the destruction of reality itself!'

OK, so...since when has Davros wanted to destroy reality?

I mean, I get the whole 'mad' thing, but...whatever happened to Daleks conquering the universe and stuff?

And why do the Daleks put up with it? They took a lot of nonsense from their God-Emperor (including him inviting the Doctor to use his destructor thing) but hey, he was GOD and therefore SUPPOSED to be a genocidal maniac. The Daleks have a tendency to turn on their Creator and (dismally fail to) exterminate him for a lot less than trying to wipe them and the universe out.

Incidentally...fantastic new Davros. The only disappointment was his artificial-looking hand instead of the organic claw we all know and love...I'm feeling pretty stupid that it took the Confidential to point out that he got his hand shot off in Revelation.

I'm feeling pretty stupid that it took the Confidential to point out that he got his hand shot off in Revelation.

Don't be. I needed you to point it out to me, and I just watched Revelation last week.

since when has Davros wanted to destroy reality

It's a natural extension of being willing to destroy all life, back in Genesis. His motive then wasn't death for its own sake, but the thrill of power. Destroying universes is the same thrill, but on a bigger scale.

Ruling the universe would be even more fun for Davros, of course, but he can't do that with the press of a button.

Davros probably had some p-lan to destroy the Daleks too, once they'd served their purpose, leaving him utterly alone. He could then happily spend the rest of his life comfortable in the knowledge that he was the supreme power, since nothing else existed.

Of course, even if his plan had worked and reality had crumbled into dust, the Master would have somehow survived. The two maniacs would get to enjoy each other's company for eternity.

It's a natural extension of being willing to destroy all life, back in Genesis.

Ah yes, I was forgetting that tiny-pressure-of-my-thumb stuff.

Ruling the universe would be even more fun for Davros, of course, but he can't do that with the press of a button.

But surely getting there would be half the fun? And would pass the time a lot more enjoyably than pressing a button followed by an eternity of...nothing-plus-some-Daleks-he-doesn't-really-get-on-with?

Of course, even if his plan had worked and reality had crumbled into dust, the Master would have somehow survived. The two maniacs would get to enjoy each other's company for eternity.

You may be very slightly exaggerating on the 'enjoy' front...if the Master topped himself rather than spend five more minutes with THE DOCTOR...

But surely getting there would be half the fun?

Davros hungers for that moment of supreme power, when all the universes bow to his will. Compared to that sublime prospect, merely conquering one universe cannot compete. That the universes are all destroyed in the process is a minor detail.

the Master topped himself rather than spend five more minutes with THE DOCTOR...

But Davros wouldn't be insufferably sanctimonious, which is how the Master sees the Doctor. There's no way Davros would hug his enemy, and offer to forgive him. Besides, the Master didn't really kill himself. He abandoned his body, to escape the Doctor, but he'll have had plans to get another one.

Anyone, Davros and the Master have never met, but they deserve each other. I like the thought of those two spending eternity trapped together, on one small ship, surrounding by utter nothingness, constantly killing each other in a futile struggle for dominance.

Davros hungers for that moment of supreme power, when all the universes bow to his will.

Yup *sigh* suppose that's undeniable - thanks to Journey's End - but I don't quite understand WHY. I mean, Davros didn't even BELIEVE in life on other planets before he met the Doctor.

Compared to that sublime prospect, merely conquering one universe cannot compete.

But would at least fill in the empty eons. Which are gonna be very empty indeed once everything is dust.

But Davros wouldn't be insufferably sanctimonious, which is how the Master sees the Doctor.

With some justification. ('I forgive you', PAH!)

There's no way Davros would hug his enemy

Well, he might find certain physical difficulties, what with only having one arm...(NB: it's not in bad taste to mock people's disabilities when they're DAVROS, right?)

Besides, the Master didn't really kill himself. He abandoned his body, to escape the Doctor, but he'll have had plans to get another one.

Yeah, I was half-expecting him to turn up in Journey's End...still, it's a pretty elaborate escape plan, what's wrong with just slipping away after slapping a rubber Master-mask on someone, a la Sea Devils?

I like the thought of those two spending eternity trapped together, on one small ship, surrounding by utter nothingness, constantly killing each other in a futile struggle for dominance.

Sounds like the time the Doc accidentally shut a Sontaran and a Rutan up in a TARDIS in Infinity Doctors...only without the happy ending...

I don't quite understand WHY

It would be worrying if you could. Davros's motivations are not rational, by any sane standard. Only those as twisted as he is can fully understand him.

the empty eons. Which are gonna be very empty indeed once everything is dust.

I doubt Davros thought that far ahead, any more than a terminal alcoholic would think about what happens after they drink those 17 bottles of vodka. However, I think he'd eventually decide to create a new universe, in his image. He's certainly arrogant enough to think he could. In fact, I was a little surprised he didn't rant about doing so in 'Journey's end'

it's not in bad taste to mock people's disabilities when they're DAVROS, right?

If he wanted to, he could easily give himself a normal human body. Remaining a one-armed half-dalek is a deliberate choice, thus eminently mockable.

I can understand the half-Dalek thing (he thinks they are a superior being) but not the one arm. Perhaps he'd like to have the sucker and whisk attachment but as he needs to be improving the Daleks all the time, he can't do without the dexterity of at least one hand. But two hands would be too human. I'm assuming he can't go "Full-Dalek" for the same reason. It's that great non-logic that an insane bloke like Davros would never get.

Perhaps he was born with only one arm, and even though he now has the technology to add another way, keeps it that way out of a twisted sense of pride.

No, he was born humanoid - he lost his left arm, eyes, use of his legs and various organs in a Thal attack during the Skaro war (IIRC a nuke hit his lab and although the shielding/structure absorbed most of it, he was still crippled).

Presumably there's also neurological damage which means he couldn't control it properly.

Moderator's Note: Moved from the New Series: Season Six: A Christmas Carol section:

Davros DID have legs at some point

Do we actually know that? He was certainly seriously injured at some point, but it's possible he was born legless, thanks to all the radiation around.

True, I've probably been unduly influenced by the audio 'Davros' and the 'I, Davros' spinoff (one of BF's very few successes). Though knowing those charming Kaleds, a legless baby would have been an exposed-on-the-nearest-wasteland-pretty-fast baby. Whereas all that time and money put into Davros's survival would have been MUCH more likely if he'd got injured AFTER revealing himself to be their greatest scientist.

(bearing children to propagate the great Kaled race is every female's proud duty)

Oh, I don't doubt THAT. It's what the hell happens to women over child-bearing age I wonder about. No wonder the Kaleds were losing the war, if they thought of women solely as breeders. Kinda similar to the Nazi's determination to make females all about Church, kitchen and children...by the time the Nazis realised they needed women to run everything while the men were off getting killed in Russia, it was MUCH too late...

Re: Emily's last comment...
Some possibilities concerning women past child bearing age in this scenario, are quite nasty indeed, Emily, as said females are now very, very expendable, if you're that way inclined...

I watched a nature show once that said the function of humans once past childbearing age was to help raise the young ones when the parents were off hunting and gathering. Probably more kiddies survived to adulthood if they had grandparents around.

Some possibilities concerning women past child bearing age in this scenario, are quite nasty indeed, Emily, as said females are now very, very expendable, if you're that way inclined...

They'd still have been useful in the factories, though (assuming Skaro still HAD any factories) and you could always give 'em a big rock each and stick 'em on the front line...we don't need to assume Davros ate 'em or anything...

I watched a nature show once that said the function of humans once past childbearing age was to help raise the young ones when the parents were off hunting and gathering.

Yeah, I heard that as well - it's supposed to be why women live longer than men. You hear that, blokes? If only you'd learnt to change a few nappies in the Stone Age (or whenever) you too could enjoy an extra few years of crippled, pain-filled senility...

It's what the hell happens to women over child-bearing age I wonder about.

Using them as organ donors for the brave soldiers would obviously be an insult to their manhood, so the natural choice is medical experimentation obviously. Davros needed a source of raw material for his inventions, and the lesser geniuses developing chemical and biological weapons would have needed test subjects.

If only you'd learnt to change a few nappies in the Stone Age (or whenever) you too could enjoy an extra few years of crippled, pain-filled senility...

Not exactly, and the other reason is relevant to Davros's condition. The more likely an animal is to die a violent death, the faster it ages. After all, there's no point being able to live to 50 if on average you get eaten by wolves or trampled by mammoths by the age of 25. Since picking blackberries is slightly safer than hunting, women were less likely to get themselves killed young, so they end up ageing better than men. Since it was the women who encouraged men to chase big animals, preferring the strapping hunter who dragged home a mammoth to the one who brought back three scrawny rabbits, they only have themselves to blame for the extra years of slow decline.

The same logic, of course, applies to Kaleds. By killing of their sons young for a thousand years, they removed the selective pressure against mutations that don't show up until you're 40 - like Huntingdon's Chorea. The predictable result is that you get a lot of Kaleds who age badly. E.g, they look normal until they're 40; then their skin turns grey, their limbs wither away, and they become power-mad geniuses.

Having all Davros's abnormalities be due to mutation would be too neat, but it's certainly plausible some of them are due to the kind of slow degeneration that doesn't show up until you get middle-aged.

The more likely an animal is to die a violent death, the faster it ages.

I'm not sure how the natural selection process works with that theory. A woman who picks blackberries but dies fairly young still has offspring as reproduction happens early in life. A man who makes it to old age has more opportunity to spread his genes about as men don't become infertile with age. So you'd think the increased longevity of women wouldn't make much difference to the gene pool, whereas the long-lived man could make quite a contribution.

It's a matter of odds. Blackbeery-picking women would live longer on average than mammoth-chasing men, even if they aged at the same rate, so they benefit more from genes that keep them in good shape at 40, Of course, if said gene had no harmful side-effects, it would spread through the entire population, male and female. What we're really dealing with is genes with trade-offs - e.g a gene that on average makes you 2% stronger on average at the age of 20, but increases the chances of arthritis at 50 by 2%. That gene is better for men than for women because men, thanks to their dangerous lifestyles, are less likely than women to live long enough to suffer the arthritis. They get the benefit, then die before paying the price.

It's not just people. The same theory explains animal lifespan varies. The average mouse in the wild would be killed by a cat long before it reached five, so dropping dead of old age at four doesn't affect it's genetic fitness one bit (numbers not exact). A bird the same size can fly away from prowling cats, In the absence of old age they might live 15-20 years before some accident or passing kestrel killed them Dropping dead at age 4 would be wasting 10 years when they could be breeding, so they don't. They drop dead at 20-25 instead - and so do bats, which live much longer than other mammals their size. Closer too home, primates also live longer than other mammals the same size, and they're harder for predators to catch. The slowest ageing mammals of all are elephants and whales, both too big for anything other than humans to hunt, and people who have wiped out half their natural predators, and turned the rest into pets.

This has also been tested experimentally.If you only let young flies breed, and kill the old ones, they start ageing faster. If you coddle them, protecting them from accidents and wasps, they start ageing slower.

Now, considering that even without regeneration, presumably an artificial add-on, Gallifreyans can live for 400-500 years, we can conclude that even before they became civilised, they had extremely peaceful lives. They wouldn't have evolved to age so slowly if they kept getting eaten by Gallifreyan Tigers before reaching a mere century. Quite likely, Gallifrey didn't have any dangerous wild animals, and perhaps none at all larger than a cat.

The Kaleds, on the other hand, by fighting a thousand years war, have effectively been breeding a shorter lifespan. Genetic defects that leave them crippled at 40 have stopped being an handicap, because the Thals kill most of them before they reach 30, so those mutations have been piling up in the gene pool, rather than getting culled. Davros is a plausible result of this.

This has also been tested experimentally.If you only let young flies breed, and kill the old ones, they start ageing faster. If you coddle them, protecting them from accidents and wasps, they start ageing slower.

Interesting. Evolution is more complicated than I thought.

Genetic defects that leave them crippled at 40 have stopped being an handicap

I'm not sure a genetic defect that doesn't kick in until 40 would be a handicap for any population as breeding occurs well before then.

There doesn't seem to be a demonstrable mechanism to support the empirical fly evidence above. They can show it happens, but not why.

People over 40 are useful to have in the family, because they can babysit, and share the wisdom of their advanced years. As long as people don't die of other causes before they reach 40, genes that make them drip dead at 40 would be a definite handicap.

They can show it happens, but not why.

In a sense. They can't show exactly why the flies live longer, at the physiological level - exact what the mutations are, and how they extend the lifespan. They can show why selecting late breeding flies increases their lifespan at the evolutionary level - it's the argument I outlined earlier. It depends how detailed an explanation you want.

They can show why selecting late breeding flies increases their lifespan at the evolutionary level - it's the argument I outlined earlier.

You said older flies, not late breeding ones. I assumed the older flies had been breeding all along and were just prevented from breeding once they reached a certain age. Late breeding flies implies they didn't hit puberty until later, in which case I can see some mechanism for later breeding flies needing to live longer.

If you only let older flies breed, they all have to breed later, removing the selective pressure against genes which delay puberty, or the insect equivalent. The difference between this and actively selecting those which choose to breed later is only a minor detail of experimental design, not anything significant.

I think I'm getting confused now. Oh well, forget the flies. Bottom line: Evolution is complicated.

ISN'T it just.

I have a feeling that learning everything I know of evolution via Full Circle and Evolution of the Daleks probably isn't helping, here...

This is all over the news today -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1367972/BBC-sued-Who-drew-evil-Dalek-mastermind-Davros.html

- even though I remember this chap's story being discussed in fanzines in the early 1990s. Good old Daily Evil, as quick off the mark as usual.

Let's not forget that Terry Nation nicked the idea of the Daleks from his old boss, Tony Hancock, who wanted to do a comedy series about mutated nuclear holocaust survivors who gradually turn into dustbin robots. His reaction to seeing the Daleks for the first time: "That bloody Nation! He's stolen my robots!"

Apparently the bloke who told Terry Nation all about his plans for a post-plague series was also a leetle miffed when Survivors came out.

I'm sure he made up Blake's 7 all by himself, though. I mean, who else would BOTHER?

Hey, I liked Blake's 7!

Those handdrawn pics of Davros do look pretty compelling though.

A bit TOO compelling, actually. Is there REALLY any way that an initial sketch - even by a professional paid by the BBC to design Davros, never mind a kid - would be THAT close to the on-screen version?

Do we really know when the drawing was made? Could it have been made after a screening of 'Genesis oF the Daleks' or is it absolutely drawn prior to the creation of even the script?

I really, really, REALLY hate it when somebody appears YEARS later or years AND YEARS after a movie, tv show, fictional character or whatever becomes very popular and successful, and then some shlep shows up and says 'Oh, by the way! I wrote/drew/created this thing and now I want the millions that's owed to me!"

I have a big problem with this, considering that Davros was created 35 or so years ago, and only now there's a problem? Why not sue the BBC in the 1990's when the shows were being sold on VHS and DVD and the character appeared in books?

Yeah, I mean why did this person wait so long? Genesis first aired nearly forty years ago.

Well, if you'd read the article you might have seen this passage:

"The teenager, who by this time was working in his local branch of Halfords, contacted solicitors but it went no further because he had lost the copies of the competition entry.

However, 20 years later, he found them hidden in a set of family encyclopedias."

That being said shouldn't TV Action have had copies of the entries? Or, at the very least, a list of people who entered this contest? Why not subpeona the judges of the contest (Jon Pertwee, Terrance Dicks and Barry Letts)?

Presumably one, or more, of those people would have had to take the information from the contest, give a copy to Terry Nation so he could use it in a future script (while not even bothering to change any of the names), & a copy of the sketch had to be given to whoever was building props & creating makeup & they just happened to keep it or so close to the sketch.

Yeahhhhhhh... not necessarily impossible, but highly improbable.

It's like saying there would only be one copy of a Dalek drawing at the BBC to work from, one copy of a Sea Devil, etc.
To believe that there's only one copy making the rounds...uhhhh..nope. Not gonna happen.
Liars make me angry.

Why not subpeona the judges of the contest (Jon Pertwee, Terrance Dicks and Barry Letts

Well, I guess Terrance Dicks is the only one that can be supeonaed now, since Mr. Pertwee and Mr. Letts are now deceased (unless you got a Ouija board handy).

However, this person just finding this drawing now, right. And I've got this bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

I meant at the time when they were still alive. What kind of bad lawyers don't think about these things when a potential client is planning to sue?

ME (in Daleks section): And yet somehow [Davros] KEEPS forgetting to programme the Daleks with any loyalty to him...

ROBERT: He reprogrammed some of the Daleks in Resurrection into working for him, and by Remembrance had a whole empire full of completely loyal Daleks.

Yeah, I've never GOT that. Why have no books or audios filled that glaring gap?

And, of course, this makes it all the more inexplicable that Davros failed to do the same when he built his Big Red Dalek pre-Stolen Earth.

this makes it all the more inexplicable that Davros failed to do the same when he built his Big Red Dalek pre-Stolen Earth.

Blame that on Dalek Caan sabotaging Davros as part of his insane grand plan to wipe out the daleks by creating a dalek empre.

Ooh, that's a point. Good old Caan. Though how would he manage it? Davros had absolute faith in Caan's fortune-telling abilities in Journey's End, which would be unlikely if Caan had TOLD him, 'Oh, not to worry about the loyalty of that super-duper new chap you're building (OR the fact that red is invisible to Daleks according to some Annual or other), just cos your creations tried to overthrow daddy in Genesis and Resurrection and Revelation and suchlike doesn't mean HE'LL stick you in the basement and treat you like a pet or anything...'

Caan would say something like 'The supreme rides the storm path, but you ride the storm. Thinking you mastered, he remains your slave,' (all metaphorically true) and let Davros try to interpret it. Naturally, he'll come up with a favourable interpretation.

Meanwhile, Caan presses a button when Davros isn't looking, turning off the loyalty programming.

DWM: 'Sensing that Davros was a good character, Nation was careful not to repeat the mistake he'd made in 1963 - killing the Daleks off in their first serial - and specified that Davros' demise should not be shown' - you have GOT to be KIDDING me. He was blasted to bits by the Daleks at point-blank range! And if Terry Nation had been REMOTELY serious about resurrecting him at the time, he WOULDN'T have had Davros reaching for the destroy-all-Daleks button...

Moderator's Note: moved from the Doctors: Other 'Doctors' thread:

As long as we're passing out blame, don't forget Tom--who not only failed to stop the creation of the Daleks(with a silly "have I got the right") but gave them the key to overcome all their past defeats( or am I the only person who can't see Davros putting the ONLY copy of that tape in a locked safe that he needs help to use????).

(This theory also explains why the Daleks want Davros back so badly--it's the recording they want--Davros is just un-needed baggage!!!)

Even if it was the only copy, surely he'd remember significant chunks of it. Hell, last time we saw him, he could recall Sarah from her voice alone.

I doubt it was the only copy.

I mean--would Davros(as trusting as he is) put the only copy of a priceless tape in a safe that not only can he not control(at least one other person has to have the combination), but he can't access on his own????

Or would he quietly push a button on his chair,and make his own recording(to be referenced at need)???

As T.B. never even thought of this,I can't see any reason it wouldn't survive.

When the Daleks found they needed it(1000 tears later) they sent a force to get it--and found Davros still alive.

(As for saying they were there for Davros-they lied(even if the Movellans found Davros all they'd do is kill him(if he wasn't already dead), the recording survives and the Daleks win).)

Not a bad plan, if I say so myself.

As long as we're passing out blame, don't forget Tom--who not only failed to stop the creation of the Daleks(with a silly "have I got the right") but gave them the key to overcome all their past defeats

Fair point *sigh*.

( or am I the only person who can't see Davros putting the ONLY copy of that tape in a locked safe that he needs help to use????).

The guy DID forget to programme the Daleks with any loyalty to him. Even after the first half-a-dozen times the Daleks tried to kill/imprison him.

Even if it was the only copy, surely he'd remember significant chunks of it. Hell, last time we saw him, he could recall Sarah from her voice alone.

God, that's a point.

Lucky the Doctor was lying about the date of the Dalek invasion of Earth...

would Davros(as trusting as he is) put the only copy of a priceless tape in a safe that not only can he not control(at least one other person has to have the combination), but he can't access on his own????

Davros could trust Nyder with his life. And with the destruction of their entire race. He could certainly trust him to open a safe.

Or would he quietly push a button on his chair,and make his own recording(to be referenced at need)???

Would Davros HAVE a tape-recorder in his chair? Would he really think anyone but him would say anything worth recording for posterity...oh. Yeah, of course he'd've had a tape recorder to record the sound of his own voice.

When the Daleks found they needed it(1000 tears later) they sent a force to get it--and found Davros still alive.

That makes an awful lot of sense.

(As for saying they were there for Davros-they lied

Though hadn't the Dalek Supreme prepared a record of Dalek history for Davros when they found him? THAT'S carrying the pretence a bit far.

Davros could trust Nyder with his life. And with the destruction of their entire race. He could certainly trust him to open a safe.

I can how this Davros/Nyder rumour got started.

Emily: The guy DID forget to programme the Daleks with any loyalty to him. Even after the first half-a-dozen times the Daleks tried to kill/imprison him.

Did he--or did other inputs over-ride this directive.

(I mean such things as "the Daleks are the supreme beings in the universe",and "the Daleks shall rule the universe" leave little reason to follow the orders of any non-Dalek.(Also-I doubt Davros saw himself-a barely alive cripple of war) living to see everything. Who cares if they follow your orders after you're dead.)

Emily:Davros could trust Nyder with his life. And with the destruction of their entire race. He could certainly trust him to open a safe.

You might have a point there except for:

1) Nyder might not be available when Davros needed the tape.

2) Nyder might give up the tape when threatened(he did and the Doctor then destroyed it).

3)If Nyder is the only one with the combination--if he dies, you can't get the tape(which might have happened).

4) If not--someone else might steal the tape.

5) Would Davros be able to trust ANYONE with the only copy of that tape???(I'm more trusting than Davros--and I wouldn't given the same set-up.)

Emily:Would Davros HAVE a tape-recorder in his chair? Would he really think anyone but him would say anything worth recording for posterity...oh. Yeah, of course he'd've had a tape recorder to record the sound of his own voice.

We're looking at a wheelchair bound man with one useful arm and no desk space. I can't think of anything more important for him to have than a recorder to take notes on.

Emily:Though hadn't the Dalek Supreme prepared a record of Dalek history for Davros when they found him? THAT'S carrying the pretence a bit far.

No, the Dalek Supreme said he had prepared the record.(If he hadn't all it would take is a quick lie, and an off-camera "show him Dalek history tape 47B(review)".)

I just had another thought--if Nyder knew Davros had another copy of the tape it might explain why loyal Nyder gave up the tape so easily when asked to.

Emily: The guy DID forget to programme the Daleks with any loyalty to him. Even after the first half-a-dozen times the Daleks tried to kill/imprison him.

Did he--or did other inputs over-ride this directive.

(I mean such things as "the Daleks are the supreme beings in the universe",and "the Daleks shall rule the universe" leave little reason to follow the orders of any non-Dalek.

SURELY by the umpteenth time - the time he was growing them from his own flesh - Davros would have programmed the Daleks with the slightly different 'anything grown from Davros's flesh is the supreme being of the universe'?

(Also-I doubt Davros saw himself-a barely alive cripple of war) living to see everything. Who cares if they follow your orders after you're dead.)

Oh, Davros cared, all right. He wanted to live forever, and he wanted the immortality of HIS creations doing what he wanted after he was dead.

Would Davros be able to trust ANYONE with the only copy of that tape???(I'm more trusting than Davros--and I wouldn't given the same set-up.)

It's a tragedy that you've never experienced the bromance that was between Davros and Nyder...

No, the Dalek Supreme said he had prepared the record.(If he hadn't all it would take is a quick lie, and an off-camera "show him Dalek history tape 47B(review)".)

Trouble is, the record played to Davros had an honest account of all the Dalek defeats. Whereas if Daleks WERE carrying round a historical record with them as a matter of course (which I doubt) it would naturally have been rewritten to make it plain that DAL-EKS ARE THE SU-PREME BE-INGS OF THE UN-I-VERSE.

if Nyder knew Davros had another copy of the tape it might explain why loyal Nyder gave up the tape so easily when asked to.

True. And it MIGHT also help explain how Davros made it from prisoner in Revelation to Emperor in Remembrance. It would have been a pretty powerful bargaining tool.

How did Nyder become so trusted? Davros doesn't seem to be the trusting type.

How did Nyder become so trusted?

How did the members of Hitler's Inner Circle become so trusted, by destroying anyone that got in their way. I imagine Nyder did the same thing?

The last I, Davros audio provides a not-particularly-interesting background involving Nyder rescuing Davros and them becoming allies. And yes, I seem to remember quite a lot of destroying-anyone-that-got-in-their-way stuff. Still, it's ASTONISHING that Davros didn't even think twice before casually revealing his plans to wipe out the entire Kaled race. Even Nyder needs a second or two to assimilate this information. And yet even ultra-suspicious Davros KNEW that Nyder's 'Yeah, OK then' response was genuine instead of being what I suspect even a Hitler Inner Circler's would have been, a bluff as he rushed off to alert people about this madman's plan.

Of course, the reason Nyder did nothing was because he had no conscience at all. He didn't care that his own people would die, as long as he and Davros survived.

Davros clearly knew that.

I still say it was love.

I always wondered why Davros didn't undergo a total Dalek conversion, voluntary or not. His current body isn't worth much anyway, and I bet he'd make the best Supreme Dalek ever.

Judibug - How did Nyder become so trusted? Davros doesn't seem to be the trusting type.
Oddly enough it seems that corrupt people will trust other corrupt people. Maybe it's because people tend to be tribal and like to hang around similar minded people. Heck, Hitler, Castro & Chavez didn't achieve power alone they were helped & aided by similarly corrupt people.

Nyder is obviously willing to stomp over anyone to get to the top. No wonder Davros grew to trust him. They belong together.

But that means Nyder would be willing to stomp over Davros too, and vice versa. There had to be something else going on between them to inspire such trust.

Maybe Davros trusts Nyder because he's had his fingers in Nyder's brain, metaphorically.

When Davros woke up from suspended animation in 'Resurrection' he had a mind control device on him, which he didn't have any opportunity to develop between 'Genesis' and 'Resurrection', so he presumably had it in 'Genesis'. A quick jab with that would have made Nyder unquestioningly loyal.

Davros would have programmed the Daleks with the slightly different 'anything grown from Davros's flesh is the supreme being of the universe'?

One slight problem with that: Davros was almost certainly not grown from Davros's flesh, since that would make him a living temporal paradox. The Daleks would still be free to exterminate him on sight.

But that means Nyder would be willing to stomp over Davros too, and vice versa. There had to be something else going on between them to inspire such trust.

Maybe all those Davros/Nyder shippers are on to something.


When Davros woke up from suspended animation in 'Resurrection' he had a mind control device on him, which he didn't have any opportunity to develop between 'Genesis' and 'Resurrection', so he presumably had it in 'Genesis'.

Don't forget he was up and about for some time in Destiny of The Daleks, he could have made it then. If he had it in Genesis, wouldn't he have used it on Gharman when he started to question Davros's motives?

Don't forget he was up and about for some time in Destiny of The Daleks, he could have made it then.

Up and about, but not free, and he does need a lab to work in. Only the Daleks might give him that kind of unfettered access, and even that's doubtful. They woke him up for his military advice, not his engineering skills, and they should realise letting him loose in their labs is just asking for him to build a mind control device he can use on them.

If he had it in Genesis, wouldn't he have used it on Gharman when he started to question Davros's motives?

No, because he wanted to find out how many others among the scientists shared Gharman's doubts, which is also why he didn't just have Gharman killed.

Presumably, when he discovered the extent of the opposition, he decided testing his new Dalek's killing efficiency would be more entertaining than jabbing the scientists with his mind control device, one at a time.

I wonder how much of Davros's "personal area" is injured? Can he go to the toilet and "drain the main vein"?

That's an interesting thought, Judi. I suppose his life support systems can, ahem, compensate.

You know, I think Nyder and Davros are the closest thing to each other than they can call a friend.

Certainly Davros is the only one Nyder shows any sign of loyalty and devotion to. His whole city is destroyed, he doesn't give a ••••. When Gharman and his followers are massacred, he stands there with a smug look on his face (not knowing he'll meet the same fate a few moments later). However, whatever Davros asks, Nyder does, no questions asked.

It would be interesting to see how these two met and became such good friends, in a matter of speaking.

I think Nyder was brought up from infancy with Davros. He was the only person Davros considered something like a true friend. Nyder didn't abandon Davros after Davros's devastating injuries. Whereas John Lumic would have converted Nyder into a Cybusman, Davros would never have converted Nyder into a Dalek. Nyder was totally loyal to his friend.

I find it hard to imagine Davros changing Nyder's nappies.

Thanks for putting that image in my head!

You're welcome.

There isn't the slightest sign that Davros ever gives Nyder a second thought post-Genesis, is there? He might at least have named a few conquered planets after him.

Davros doesn't even name planets after himself, so he certainly wouldn't name them after Nyder.

Unlike so many human dictators, Davros isn't interested in fancy titles, giant statues of himself, cities named after him, and the like. He has the Daleks instead.

His metallic memorials can't STAND him! He even gets written out of Dalek/Thal...sorry, Dal/Thal, history...

Though I have to admit, attempting to wipe out every universe ever does demonstrate a SEVERE lack of interest in statues and suchlike.

He might at least have named a few conquered planets after him.


Nyderland? Nyderville? Nyder's World?

---
That's an interesting thought, Judi. I suppose his life support systems can, ahem, compensate.
---
Presumably there's a dialysis machine in Davros' wheelchair, possibly with IV nutrients and almost certainly ongoing pain relief drugs etc.

Depending on their efficiency, Davros might only have to stop and rest every so often, docking the wheelchair into a support harness where wastes get removed, new nutrients and drugs get installed, and the batteries get charged up.

---
You know, I think Nyder and Davros are the closest thing to each other than they can call a friend.
---
I'm not sure - maybe Nyder's simply just very loyal to the Kaled race and the ideal of wiping out the Thals, and believes Davros is the best route to that end goal.

what caused Davros's insanity? the accident that crippled him or something else?

Nyderland? Nyderville? Nyder's World?

All of the above! Or, better still, Nyder's GALAXY! Let's hear it for the Donna Noble of villain side-kicks!

maybe Nyder's simply just very loyal to the Kaled race and the ideal of wiping out the Thals, and believes Davros is the best route to that end goal.

You're forgetting that stunning moment when Nyder finally realises 'The entire Kaled race? You would go that far?'...and, after mulling it over a second or two, decides sod the entire Kaled race, bromance is more important.

what caused Davros's insanity? the accident that crippled him or something else?

According to the Davros Sixth Doctor audio and the I, Davros spin-offs, something else. Or rather, LOTS of something elses. A crazily ambitious mother, a sister who hated him, a father who turned out not to be his father after all, ambitious superiors holding him back, ambitious superiors sending him on suicide missions, the woman he loved choosing someone else, oh, and then there's the whole Thousand-Year-War thing.

Though in MY opinion, Davros wasn't insane at all until that Doctor came along to repeatedly mock and defeat him.

Magician's Apprentice:

What's kiddie-Davros doing running round a battlefield anyway? What a moron.

'Davros made the Daleks. But who made Davros' - er, don't you mean WHAT made Davros, viz, a thousand-year war? I doubt even Capaldi being MEAN to him can compare to THAT.

'I was right to create the Daleks for the ultimate good of the universe' - you were? Er...care to elaborate?

'You know what children are like' says Davros to the Doctor. No he doesn't and neither do you.

'They want her to run, they need her to run, their blood is screaming kill kill kill, hunter and prey held in the ecstasy of crisis. Is this not life at its purest' - is Davros projecting, or is this really how Daleks feel?

'Let this be my final victory, let me hear you say it, just once: compassion is wrong' - hang on, LAST time wasn't your 'final victory' to show the Doctor he was a bit of a git? Why do you need ANOTHER final victory?

'You can't leave me you promised, you said I had a chance' - he didn't promise you anything, you vile lying brat.

'They want her to run, they need her to run, their blood is screaming kill kill kill, hunter and prey held in the ecstasy of crisis. Is this not life at its purest' - is Davros projecting, or is this really how Daleks feel?

He made the creatures, he probably knows them better than they know themselves, and he also could have designed them that way.

He doesn't know 'em THAT well. He's ALWAYS surprised when they betray him. And surely it must have occurred even to Davros that filling 'em with such bloodlust might not be such a great idea. When they've finished with the Thals, what then?

Was rewatching Resurrection of the Daleks and noticed an odd wobble in the way the Daleks move, but it wasn't until I saw Davros' travel chair moving with the wobble when it dawned on me that the performers are probably moving these things with their feet on the floor instead of either motorized wheels or pedal-powered wheels.

their blood is screaming kill kill kill

For some reason my mind read that as 'kill la kill' which created a weird mental image of Clara, wearing senketsu and weilding a scissor sword, fighting Daleks. (Rodney, of course, would suffer a nose bleed.)

Witch's Familiar:

What exactly makes Davros think the Doctor longs to return to Gallifrey? Cos he REALLY doesn't.

'You weren't bored. No one runs the way you have run for so small a reason' - and again...if Daros had the slightest clue about Doctor-psychology he'd realise that the Doctor fears boredom above all things.

'You have redeemed the Time Lords from the fire. Do not lose them again' - which bit of the Doctor telling him that he'd already accidentally mislaid the Time Lords did Davros not quite grasp?

'Was I right? I need to know before the end...am I a good man?' - in what way would THAT bizarre question aid Davros's attempt to elicit the Doctor's pity? Surely the natural reaction would be to punch him in the face whilst screaming 'NO!'?

'My Daleks are afflicted by a genetic defect - respect for their father' - since WHEN!

'Everything you are, they are' the Doctor tells Davros, vis-a-vis his Dalek children. That's not true, is it - there are distinct differences.

For someone who thinks he's got the Doctor well and truly fooled, Davros starts his evil chuckling just a little too soon.

'Was I right? I need to know before the end...am I a good man?' - in what way would THAT bizarre question aid Davros's attempt to elicit the Doctor's pity?

Davros has obviously been watching season 8 and decided that this Doctor is easily bamboozled by soap opera-level pseudo-psychology. That or he just wanted to poke fun at Capaldi's catchphrase.

Thank heavens it was this incarnation he tried this on or we might have had scenes of Davros saying "fantastic!", "allons-y" or "I wear a bow-tie now. Bow-ties are cool."

WE NEED THESE SCENES!

Remember that mentalcase that claimed he invented Davros for a magazine contest?

I'll just park this here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-35158826

Ha ha ha ha ha!

Twenty years in jail seems a tiny bit steep, though.

But then what are rape or murder compared to backdating your panda drawings?

Moffat in DWM: 'Davros is unique among villains...The word, I think, is sincerity. According to his dark and terrible lights, Davros has absolute integrity...Davros is clever, determined, eloquent, selfless, passionate, heroic in his dreadful way...He, rather than the Master, is our hero's eternal opposite. For the Doctor, survival of the fittest is a clarion call to protect the weak - for Davros it is a good reason to eliminate them. It's horrible to contemplate which of them Mother Nature would agree with.'

Mind you, Sutekh is pretty big on the 'sincerity' and 'integrity' front too.

Re: the Davros fantasist quietly dropping his claim... now can I just post this picture I sent to Vision On back in the 70's of the Doctor facing a giant cactus?
I wasn't born in the 70's but what's a fudging of facts between friends ;)

Witch's Familiar:

'Respect. Mercy for their father. Design flaws I was unable to eliminate' - I'm sorry, after your boys (as the Doctor referred to them) tried to kill you a few times you decided they were WAY too respectful and tried to ELIMINATE SAID RESPECT?

'There is a question, Doctor. One I have longed to ask.' 'Yeah, well, if you're going to put your hand on my knee, it isn't going to go well.' - Usually I don't approve of the sexualisation of Who but in THIS case...

Shouldn't Davros's eyes have looked a bit more watery or bloodshot or something?

Davros was very sporting about the Doctor redeeming the Time Lords from the fire. If I'd been him I'd've shouted 'THAT'S CHEATING!' (In fact, I think I DID shout 'THAT'S CHEATING!' during Day of the Doctor.)

OK, did the Doctor sit down and have a chat and a laugh with Adolf Hitler? He did not. He shut Hitler in the cupboard. Just sayin'.

Davros's parents never told him not to hold hands with strange men?

Davros's parents never told him not to hold hands with strange men?

Did he ever know his parents? And the strange man in question had just saved his life, so I guess he's allowed some display of affection and gratitude. Those must be few and far between on that devastated planet.

Did he ever know his parents?

Well, he did according to the I, Davros audios (even if it took him a while to work out that the bloke he thought was his dad...wasn't). Though if THEY'RE true then gods know what Calcula was thinking of, letting her Precious Darling wander round war-zones for no readily apparent reason.

I guess he's allowed some display of affection and gratitude.

Affection and gratitude aren't really Davros's kind of thing.

DWM re Destiny of the Daleks: 'Unfortunately, due to budgetary restraints, a new mask could not be made, so Gooderson was forced to struggle under latex originally deigned to fit Wisher's face. "It was like being a swimmer with goggles on," he said, "you can see dimly directly in front, but nothing at the side." Worse than this, the Davros costume had been on display at the Doctor Who exhibitions in Blackpool and Longleat, and had rather deteriorated over the years - so much so that that a cleaner binned the mask during filming of Destiny of the Daleks, thinking it was just a bit of old rubbish!' - I think I'm beginning to realise WHY Davros wanted to destroy every universe ever...

Wouldn't the state of the costume fit in well with the story? After all, Davros had been buried in that bunker for thousands of years, you'd expect SOME deterioration to occur during that time.

Ah, but synthetic tissue regeneration took place whilst bodily organs were held in long-term suspension.

Davros says so, so it must be true.

Even if Wisher hadn't died, he'd have been in his early seventies by the time of Series Four. I can't see RTD bringing him back.

Why the hell not? RTG gave us an eighty-year-old Companion, after all...

And the old fogey would have been sitting down the entire time delivering his lines, anyway!

With a rubber mask over his face so he wouldn't even look older (not that this would exactly be an insurmountable problem - 'Gosh why do you look so much older Davros' 'Er, because I got older' - it would hardly have been an OMG HIS EYEBALLS WORK WTF!! moment).

Though of course Julian Bleach was rather wonderful as Davros, and I say this as someone who hates his guts for appearing as bloody stupid monsters in the second-worst SJA story and the joint-worst Torchwood story.

And how much is left of Davros after the shell hits his laboratory?

Kaled doctor: "Davos, you are just as much a man as you were before... except you have no p*nis"

Davros: "Polly don't like that cracker!"

Shouldn't he be speaking in a much higher voice then, Natalie?

Lenny Henry's idea of a Mrs. Davros should be put in the real show...

Davros: Then and Now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FyQ1oXTpYk&fbclid=IwAR0qbYmkTXVntM1FMlJft24Fpn_gSg-bxlAMVEOkxZxCqaLUqMBWAQXq7YA

TIM in The Church on Ruby Road:

If the Mouse and Russell T. Quisling had not been involved, the episodes would ave been very different.

Davros would still be the character we've known and loved for the last 50 years

He still is.

There's no way The Legged One is gonna trump The Real Thing, not any more than 'The Doctor's real name is Theta Sigma!' or 'The Doctor is half-human on his mother's side!' survived.

Quite apart from anything else, by our One Hundredth Anniversary that actor will look REALLY DIFFERENT, whereas the TRUE Davros can reappear any time the BBC can afford enough latex.

Davros would still be the character we've known and loved for the last 50 years

Well, I would go as far as to say loved