Moderator's Note: This is Mike's original Ice Warrior summary:

They only made a few appearances on the show, but the Ice Warriors loom large in the future Earth history of the New Adventures. It's too bad the writers never thought to develop them; they could have been "Doctor Who"'s version of the Klingons.



The problem I always had with the Ice Warriors was their coming from Mars. I dunno, it seems such an old hat idea harking back to fifties b-movies. And given our knowledge of science nowadays, more than any other foe, they seem somehow dated and of-the-time. Our knowledge of the Red Planet today obviously supercedes that of the sixties, but even so.

Had the Ice Warriors come from the planet Sillyname in the galaxy of Silliername, I think they may have been better exploited too. As it is, we are given precious little of their life between Mars and their later pact with Peladon. As befits B-movie villainy, they just are. As a consequence, they come over as hulking monsters with a vague caste system. A stock reptillian cliche from a stock Martian cliche, I'm afraid.

Even their name is derivative.

Isn't there some theory floating around about the Ice Warriors maybe another offshoot of the Silurians, like the Sea Devils, that decided to leave Earth for Mars instead of hibernate?

I've definitely heard the theory that Ice Warriors aren't originally from Mars, and that the Martian Ice Warriors are just colonist. Never heard the Silurian idea, though.

In The Ark in Space, humans retreated to the ark to escape an impending disaster - stands to reason another intelligent species might leave Earth for similar reasons.

They call them Neo-Artians in the Benny New Adventures - took me ages to work out who they were talking about.

Silly thought: if they're Ice Warriors, why don't they fight with ice? Or why are why aren't they made from ice?

Are they ever referred to as "Ice Warriors" in the show? I could understand if they were in their debut, since they were found in the ice and they needed to be called something, but it would be silly if they kept refering to them as that, even though Mars is a lot colder than Earth.

Incidentally, I've always had a hard time seeing the helmet as a helmet, rather than an alien face. Am I along in this?

Yes, for years - in fact, until I read the NAs - I
thought that the red plastic stuff was Ice
Warrior eyes, the body armour was their actual
skin, they were born with clamps instead of
hands...that's the trouble with Doctor Who
monsters - how do you tell whether
something's supposed to be a 'real' alien or a
disguise? I well remember my parents'
merciless peels of laughter when they glimpst
the Spiridons. In vain did I protest that these
weren't supposed to be fluffy purple aliens -
they were INVISIBLE aliens wearing cloaks.
To this day they firmly believe that the Monster
Department really was capable of producing a
creature that looks THAT bad.

I can't remember if they ever referred to
themselves as 'Ice Warriors' but given that
imbecility in Warriors of the Deep ('our Sea
Devil cousins' - how nice to know they've
renamed their entire race after the terrified
babblings of an oil rig worker) I wouldn't be
surprised.

Well, "Ice Wariors" is still better than "Martians" I guess. Thanks for knowing that I meant "alone" and not "along" as I had written. :-)
They should have shown them without the armor at least once.
And yeah, that line in "Warriors of the Deep" always gets me too.

Aren't they called Ice Warriors in the Peladon stories?

Of course they are.

The Descendants of Slaar,as commander.Looked like Archaic Darth Vaders.ofcourse with a green costume.But the wheezing remains,more than the hissing.

well that was a bit to plain and a bit retarded. Because I wrote it. And love the Commanders of the ``Ice Warriors`` , though I distasted the so called ``Warriors``. Who were so slow and, full of fibreglass. Anywhow the wheezing and the cape.
But I reckon , so called great George Lucas ,was a closet fan of Drwho, and devised characters inspired by a show , apart from his own design.
In many ways ; Vader is Slaar, Master acts like The emperor in ``Empire strikes Back``
And ``Return of the Jedi ``
While Davros was a real Emperor.
And storm Troopers are Sontarans.

So...are they gonna be Season Three/Twenty-Nine's Big Villains? It would kind of make sense, what with Daleks in the first year amd Cybermen in the second. You're running out of Classic Monsters fast, though I'd've gone for Sontarans rather than Ice Warriors for my next choice. They're way more scary. And you can get 'em cheap from Robert Holmes's widow.

Let's just hope they stop before they get to the Krotons.....

I hope they don't do the 're-introduce an old alien early in the season and then bring them back for the series climax' routine again. They need to break the pattern.

What they should do is just feature two old aliens in two separate stories and leave it that. Say an Ice Warrior story and a Sontaran story.

Let's just hope they stop before they get to the Krotons.....

You don't mean that!!! New Who must go on for EVER and EVER and EVER AMEN, and if that means the return of those Krotons then so be it! Especially as thanks to modern technology they might even be able to...y'know...walk! Hell, even when they're REALLY scrapping that barrel and the Giant Rat, Taran Beast and Slyther start turning up, it'll be a small price to pay...

I hope they don't do the 're-introduce an old alien early in the season and then bring them back for the series climax' routine again. They need to break the pattern.

Yeah, that's true.

What they should do is just feature two old aliens in two separate stories and leave it that. Say an Ice Warrior story and a Sontaran story.

But then we'd've COMPLETELY run out of good old monsters - what would we have in season four, i.e. the THIRTIETH GLORIOUS YEAR of TV Who???

There's always the Tractators. :-)

Emily - But then we'd've COMPLETELY run out of good old monsters - what would we have in season four
The return of renegade Time Lords? ;-)>

That being said how could they run out of monsters in just one season?

fer instance

ep 1. Ice Warriors
ep 2. Sontarans
ep 3. Rutans
ep 4. Silurians
ep 5. Sea Devils
ep 6. Yeti
ep 7. The Macra Terror
ep 8. Mechanoids
ep 9. Space Pirates
ep 10. The Black Guardian
ep 11. Omega
ep 12. Draconians
ep 13. Zygons

and that still leaves monsters like the Ogrons, Axonians, Nimon, who knows how many robots...

Bring back the Bandrils!

That being said how could they run out of monsters in just one season?

My emphasis was on the word 'good'. Frankly most of the above list have never done much for me. Rutans were pathetic balls, Sea Devils had string vests, Yeti were ridiculous, Macra weren't monsters, they were only trying to protect themselves from the human invaders and anyway the Doctor's GENOCIDED them all, Mechanoids were supremely unmemorable, not to mention unwieldy, the Space Pirates were boring as hell (plus were humans rather than, technically, monsters), Omega has passed his sell-by date, the Black Guardian has a bird on his head (and isn't the actor dead or something? Or was that the White Guardian?).

Mind you, Draconians would be great - not that I count them as monsters exactly, even though the Doctor Who chess set does (and even though, come to think of it, they WERE monsters of male chauvinism). And the Zygon costumes were good, even if their characters, not to mention the entire story, were entirely and boringly unoriginal. And I might be prepared to wipe Warriors of the Deep from my mind and contemplate Silurians...

Bring back the Bandrils!

•••• right. Why should we be the only ones to suffer, er, to have the pleasure of Bandril-acquaintance? It's about time all those have-it-easy newbies who've known nothing but the joys of Russell T God-ness learnt what being a Doctor Who fan is REALLY all about...

My emphasis was on the word 'good'.
I was worried someone would remember that. Curses, foiled again. (Oh, no, not the Vardans!) ;-)>

But technically speaking judging an enemy on one appearance is tough, sometimes it takes 2 or more stories to flesh out a good monster.

I mean really, take the Daleks, while they were a good villain in their first appearance it seems hard to see them making a return since 1. They were trapped in their city & 2. They were all killed at the end.

And yet the writer managed to overcome those minor inconveniences.

Yes, the FX on the actual Rutan was dreadful, but I think the concepts behind the Rutan could be developed to make them really good villains. Same with the Mechanoids & others.

Even if the Doctor genocided all the Macra he is a TIME traveller & could possibly meet another group either earlier in time or some group that had left the planet beforehand.

There have technically been 2 groups of Space Pirates. The boring ones from the self-titled story & the fun ones from The Pirate Planet. (Although the term is generic enough that any number of crooks in space could be called space pirates.) Yes they were human, but some of the worst monsters in history have been human.

Yeah the actor who played the Black Guardian (Valentine Dyal) died, but the Black Guardian can change his appearance.
As for the bird... well with computer FX maybe they could make it move around? Oooooh, creepy... ;-)

That being said, I was thinking about the uses I've seen so far using old monsters.

Rose made poor use of the Autons/Nestene Consciousness. No real development of the villains, they could just as easily been a bunch of robots. Ho-hum.

Dalek had some good moments, but really wasn't one of the better Dalek episodes & the sappy ending almost killed the memory of the better moments earlier on.
I want my Daleks to be dangerous, cunning, ruthless monsters, not suicidal wimps who are happy to have met someone who didn't fear them. Would have been a lot better if he had decided to commit suicide AND take Earth with him.

You know, Tythonians vs. Krynoids might make an interesting story?

How about a story where the Krotons find the'ir way to 1930s earth & pretend to be a new line in Art Deco styled petrol pumps?

How about a story where the Krotons find the'ir way to 1930s earth & pretend to be a new line in Art Deco styled petrol pumps?

And yet the writer managed to overcome those minor inconveniences.

Albeit with ridiculous claims that the invading-Earth Daleks were from a million years (!) BEFORE the Skaro City ones...

I think the concepts behind the Rutan could be developed to make them really good villains.

Oh, I dunno...you can get tired quite quickly of aliens-who-can-look-like-anyone. Doubles have been pretty much done to death in Who.

Even if the Doctor genocided all the Macra he is a TIME traveller & could possibly meet another group either earlier in time or some group that had left the planet beforehand.

Somehow I always think of the Macra as one-hit wonders (well, one-hit failures anyway). But yeah, a meeting between the Tenth Doctor and the pre-genocide Macra might be fun, as he gradually embarrassingly remembers exactly what he did/will do to them...

There have technically been 2 groups of Space Pirates. The boring ones from the self-titled story & the fun ones from The Pirate Planet...Yes they were human, but some of the worst monsters in history have been human.

I forgot about the latter, probably because the story wasn't conveniently labelled 'The Space Pirates'. The new series seems to be taking a monster-of-the-week approach, even when it's utterly superfluous (The Long Game, Fear Her) so I don't think we're likely to get JUST a human villain.

Yeah the actor who played the Black Guardian (Valentine Dyal) died, but the Black Guardian can change his appearance.

But the BEST THING about the Black Guardian was that voice! NO-ONE has a voice that scary (well, OK, maybe Gabriel Wolfe, but they've used him for Sutekh AND Satan, they've got to draw the line SOMEWHERE).

Rose made poor use of the Autons/Nestene Consciousness. No real development of the villains, they could just as easily been a bunch of robots. Ho-hum.

Oh, there was development, all right. The Nestene Consciousness wasn't just Spearhead and Terror's wander-round-invading-planets-for-the-hell-of-it-for-a-hundred-thousand-years monstrosity, it was - just like the Doctor - a desperate and deeply damaged refugee whose home was destroyed in the Time War. It launched the take-over of Earth out of terror of the Doctor, not out of megalomania. Have you EVER seen the Doctor reacting as passionately to a monster (bar the Daleks in season one) as his anguished cry of 'I couldn't save them, I couldn't save anyone!'?? (Alright, so when his pretty new pal slaughtered the Consciousness his reaction was a merry snap of the fingers, so let's not exaggerate the empathy between Doctor and monster...)

And the Autons were perfect for this story! They were SHOP DUMMIES COMING TO LIFE! Isn't that enough? Why on Earth would they want CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT? Especially when you're introducing the Doctor, Rose, the TARDIS, the Whoniverse, the best 45 minutes of television in the entire history of the human race, etc etc to a whole new generation of viewers?

I want my Daleks to be dangerous, cunning, ruthless monsters, not suicidal wimps who are happy to have met someone who didn't fear them.

The great thing about the Dalek in 'Dalek' was that it WAS a dangerous, cunning, ruthless monster (have you EVER seen the Doctor so terrified before? Have you EVER seen him foaming at the mouth like that? Deliberately destroying his Companion rather than face a monster? Have you EVER seen a Dalek that's so...indestructible?) AND a suicidal wimp. Now THAT'S what I call character development.

happy to have met someone who didn't fear them

Don't forget that the Dalek might easily have been putting all that pathos on for Rose's benefit. Either because it guessed she was the Doctor's Companion (c'mon...who else was the attractive young blonde likely to be?) and it knew it could regenerate with her biodata, or just because if she WASN'T a Companion it would enjoy burning her to death.

You know, Tythonians vs. Krynoids might make an interesting story?

GOD no, people were looking at The Creature and making rude jokes back in the innocent 70s, if Russell T God of all people revived it, no parent would let their innocent little kiddie watch Who ever again...

How about a story where the Krotons find the'ir way to 1930s earth & pretend to be a new line in Art Deco styled petrol pumps?

Yeah, why not? Alien Bodies proved that the Krotons could be a) fun, b) deadly (peeling Daleks like bananas) and c) shape-changeable.

Emily - Albeit with ridiculous claims that the invading-Earth Daleks were from a million years (!) BEFORE the Skaro City ones...
Hmmm... I must have missed that line since I don't remember it.

(About Rutans) you can get tired quite quickly of aliens-who-can-look-like-anyone.
Krotons could be a) fun, b) deadly (peeling Daleks like bananas) and c) shape-changeable.
*Ahem* Bit of a contradiction there?

Still Rutans do have other things to give them away. Their prefering a chillier environment. Also the shape-changing was a recent thing according to Fang Rock, so maybe not every Rutan can do it?

And the Autons were perfect for this story!
Yes, easy to knock down plastic figurines. The ep was all about introducing viewers to the Amazing Rose & some bloke called the Doctor & they needed a cardboard villain to stop.

AND a suicidal wimp. Now THAT'S what I call character development.
But not what I consider believable. Daleks were designed to conquer & EX-TER-MIN-ATE! Just giving up? Seems out of character.

GOD no, people were looking at The Creature and making rude jokes back in the innocent 70s, if Russell T God of all people revived it, no parent would let their innocent little kiddie watch Who ever again...
People have no problem with their kids watching a show with a raging bisexual who hides a gun up his *ahem* & you think they'd be bothered by a blob with a pseudopod?

And just to try & get this thread back on topic...

Maybe the Ice Warriors should be brought back as rappers?

Imagine the horror of the Doctor having to face the Vanilla Ice Warrors?

*KAM runs away*

(About Rutans) you can get tired quite quickly of aliens-who-can-look-like-anyone.
Krotons could be a) fun, b) deadly (peeling Daleks like bananas) and c) shape-changeable.
*Ahem* Bit of a contradiction there?

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I'm sick of Rutans, Zygons, and about fifty million different types of androids looking exactly like people we know. I do, however, enjoy Krotons whizzing round and changing themselves into new and exciting crystalline shapes.

Also the shape-changing was a recent thing according to Fang Rock, so maybe not every Rutan can do it?

Good point, but then - notwithstanding my moaning about shape-changing - a Rutan who couldn't do this would just be...a ball.

But not what I consider believable. Daleks were designed to conquer & EX-TER-MIN-ATE! Just giving up? Seems out of character.

But that's the point! It was totally contaminated by horrible human DNA! It IS like a Dalek to prefer to EX-TER-MIN-ATE! itself rather than live with THAT kind of dishonour.

People have no problem with their kids watching a show with a raging bisexual who hides a gun up his *ahem* & you think they'd be bothered by a blob with a pseudopod?

They'd be bothered when the Doctor starts giving it - as everyone always describes THAT scene in Creature From The Pit - 'oral stimulation'.

Maybe the Ice Warriors should be brought back as rappers?

No.

Emily - But then we'd've COMPLETELY run out of good old monsters - what would we have in season four
Me - The return of renegade Time Lords? ;-)>

Then again one might show up in season 3.

The BBC have now issued a denial vis-a-vis those hideous 'Rani' rumours. Not that I believe a word the BBC says but I'm quite prepared to believe THAT.

'Tennant did let slip that a monster from the 1960s Patrick Troughton era of Doctor Who would also be making a comeback.

But Russell T Davies wasn't giving anything way.

"It's not the yeti - that's all I'm telling you!" he said.'

Woo hoo!

GOTTA be the Ice Warriors. Hasn't it?

Re: last post
It was the (Devolved ?) Macra....

Yeah, well, not many people saw THAT coming...

Waters of Mars:

'A fine and noble race who built an empire out of snow...'

'They used their might and their wisdom to freeze it...'

Sorry...is the Doctor thinking of the same Ice Warriors I'm thinking of? The ones lumbering around invading Earth in the Troughton era? Sure, there was an unusual attempt to make 'em a bit three-dimensional in Pertwee's day, but THAT was soon nipped in the bud. And even if they hadn't been a bunch of thick green homicidal maniacs...I wouldn't describe them as 'wise' any more than I would the human race.

So why are the Ice Warriors the only major Old Who villain not to be blessed with a reappearance? Even when there's a story bloody well SET on Mars? And how much more difficult will all this 'fine, noble, wisdom' nonsense make a return of our old pals...?

Yes, their absense in Waters of Mars was blindingly apparent. They'd have made much better villains than parasitic water.

So where are the Ice Warriors? Their absence is blinding in the wake of Daleks, Cybermen, Sontarans, Silurians, Time Lords, the Master, Davros, and even Makra. Could they be any less conspicuous?

I reckon we'll see them sooner rather than later. I always felt their story needed to keep going. They bought back the Silurians last year- maybe this year they'll do Ice Warriors. Personally I'm hoping to see the Quarks again...



...kidding

I think in old Who, we only saw Ice Warriors in our future, so it's possible that they haven't developed yet.

However, Waters of Mars was set in the not-all-too-distant future and spoke of them in the past tense.

And I don't recall how ong the frozen had been frozen for in their introductory story.

I'm pretty sure they'd been frozen since the PREVIOUS ice age. Cretins.

Ah yes, you're right, and my hat's off to you for deciphering my last sentence.

So when you get down to it, their on-screen history doesn't really make any sense. They are alive and well in the mid-21st century (Seeds of Death) but in 2059 are seemingly extinct. You can't get much more mid-21st century than that. The Peladon stories are not given dates (except relative to each other) but seem to be much later.

Since they're not a time traveling species, we're going to have to blame the Time War, which, frankly, is getting old.

No, no, the point is, Martian civilisation must have died off...sorry, moved to New Mars...while Varga n'chums were having their nice snooze in the ice. According to Wikipedia 'The last glacial period was the most recent glacial period within the current ice age occurring during the last years of the Pleistocene, from approximately 110,000 to 10,000 years ago.' Plenty of time for Mars to heat up or cool down or whatever the hell happened to make it uninhabitable.

Of course, this TOTALLY contradicts the NAs - which is unfortunate since their Ice Warrior stuff was one of their few successes.

Hmm. The Author's Notes on the Deimos CD are rather insulting. 'You don't know how relieved I am to read that you want proper nasty Ice Warriors and not the Ice Klingons out of the New Adventures, where they can't even wipe their backsides without mentioning honour.'

Well, I know nothing of Klingons (NB: please don't enlighten me) but I LIKED the NA Ice Warriors. And there's nothing wrong with TRYING to use 'honour' to distinguish 'em from every other green alien Earth-invading genocidal maniac we've met. And it's not as if Deimos's Ice Warriors exactly distinguish themselves in any way. Unless you count the claim their body temperature is -20 degrees C. (How would THAT work? Didn't Benny have SEX with one of these creatures at one point?)

Picking up a point from the Vampires board, the Ice Warriors moving to New Mars, whenever that happened, is the only example of aliens relocating away from the solar system. That's a big contrast to practically every other half-way intelligent races in the galaxy, who clearly find Earth irresistible.

As I said in the Vampire thread, the NA's have been de-canonized since 2005, so any information in them is thus irrelevant.

On the other hand, the Doctor says they are an honourable people in Water Of Mars. Maybe they did become an honourable race after leaving the solar system, they seemed to be so in the first Peladon story. The group we later saw in Monster Of Peladon were renegades, they did not speak for the whole race.

But when, exactly, did the DOCTOR encounter the Ice Warriors when they were being so bloody honourable...? (Or does he just not like speaking ill of the dead, especially the dead HE helped to make dead?) Aside from Curse, of course, where he was disbelieving of this u-turn to the point of racism...

From SJA: Season Four: The Vault of Secrets:

Kevin: Come to think of it, we've never seen the Ice Warriors actually on Mars, have we?

Keith: IIRC it was the second Doctor in The Ice Warrior who assumed they came from Mars. I don't recall any Ice Warrior (from the TV series) confirming that.

Bloody hell.

And Troughton, let's face it, was pretty •••• ignorant (if not quite to Hartnell's never-heard-of-the-Daleks levels).

The Ice Warrior might not come from Mars after all...

That just rocks the foundations of my universe.

The Ice Warrior might not come from Mars after all...

Then again:

Tenth Doctor: Tell legends of Mars, of long ago. A fine and noble race who built an empire out of snow. The Ice Warriors.

Maybe he's *still* just assuming they do...

Although I would assume that at some point they were called the delegates from Mars when on Peledon...unless those were from some different planet they colonised. They certainly got there well before the Earth delegate.

Amanda - A fine and noble race who built an empire out of snow. The Ice Warriors.
IIRC the name Ice Warrior came about in the first story because they found an alien warrior frozen in ice. It was only later (the first Peladon story?) that the Ice Warriors used the name to refer to themselves.

Kevin - Although I would assume that at some point they were called the delegates from Mars when on Peledon
Even if they were (I don't remember) maybe it was a sound-alike world spelled Mahrzz or something? ;-)

Huh. We've waited a long time for the new series to bring the Ice Warriors back, and we just get some rather dull BOOK. (The Silent Stars Go By.) Telling us that they're giant shambling lizards, lethal and malicious, they're herbivorous, their lifetimes are three-to-four times a human's, and they call the Doctor 'Cold Blue Star' (yeah, like THAT'S gonna be up there with Oncoming Storm or Bringer of Darkness)...this just isn't INTERESTING.

Are coming back on screen: http://blastr.com/2012/06/look-which-classic-dr-who.php

Life is GOOD.

And about ******* time too.

Of course, I'm not sure how far to trust that article, as it misspells Jon Pertwee's name, throws in a few other claimed monster-returnings at random, AND announces that fans were crying out for the Ice Warriors to return...(Look, even I just had the occasional whinge about it...)

Sorry, but the excitement and subsequent disappointment I felt for the return of the Silurians stifles any joy I would otherwise feel here.

The article mentions the return of the Yeti and Zygons in passing. Why do the Ice Warriors headline their own article and those two just get a scrappy reference?

Sorry, but the excitement and subsequent disappointment I felt for the return of the Silurians stifles any joy I would otherwise feel here.

Quite understandable, but Moffat DOES learn from his mistakes. He hasn't exactly been parading his big-bottomed 'Daleks' across our screens at regular intervals since Victory, and he gave us such an adorable lesbian Victorian Silurian that it didn't MATTER how stupid she looked. No doubt by now he's sacked (or, better still, shot) his previous designers and we can expect our new bunch of green hissing reptiles to be AT LEAST as good as the originals.

Let's just hope he's kept the sequins on the Grand Marshal's chin...they're the only thing that makes life (well, life when you're watching Seeds of Death, anyway) worthwhile.

Anybody interested in seeing the new design for the Ice Warriors for their new episode can see it at
www.doctorwhonews.net for today's news story (March 5, 2013)

And in my opinion, it looks great.

Are those FINGERS I see??????

I'm shocked and appalled!

*rolls eyes* Gee....Emily doesn't like the new costume for an old monster. Such unprecedented behaviour.

I think the costume looks amazing. I hope it's a decent story though (unlike the Silurians who not only looked rubbish but were in a rubbish story)

I quite like it. Fairly faithful but HDed.

Gee....Emily doesn't like the new costume for an old monster. Such unprecedented behaviour.

Hey - I LOVED RTG's designs for Daleks and Cybermen. Admittedly after that it was a bit downhill. The thing I realised with the Sontarans is that they just look like giant versions of the plastic toys the BBC hope to be flogging to us in their multitudes. So whilst on the whole the Ice Warrior looks pretty impressive - give or take the fingers - he also looks a wee bit too...plastic for my tastes.

I hope it's a decent story though

It's a GATISS story. Don't hold your breath.

HDed.

HDed??

HD = High Definition. They threw in extra details so they'd look good (or distracting) on modern TVs, especially on Blu Ray.

'Martian law decrees that the people of this planet are forfeit' just because ONE human attacked Skaldak? I don't remember THAT particular law being invoked in The Ice Warriors OR Curse of Peladon.

If they can nip out of their shell-suits at any time, why don't the green gits - sorry, our wise, mighty Martian brethren - do so when the heat is making 'em keel over in Monster of Peladon/The Ice Warriors? Sure, they've got a big nudity taboo, but THAT doesn't hold Skaldak back for more than, ooh, five seconds...

So what did Mars' Mighty Empire, jewel-of-the-solar-system of 5,000 years ago CONSIST of, exactly? They certainly didn't manage to conquer EARTH.

'Bit of a design-flaw, I've always wondered why they never sorted it' - the Doc on the Ice Warriors' tendency to go haywire in heat. Er...QUITE.

'By the moons I honour thee' - WHAT moons??!!

And what's the Phobos Heresy..?

'By the moons I honour thee' - WHAT moons??!!

Phobos and Deimos, the two moons of Mars.

Of course! I've even listened to Big Finishes entitled 'Phobos' and 'Deimos', for gods' sakes...I just got Mars slightly muddled up with Earth and thought there was only ONE moon to go round...In my defence, I'm TOTALLY drunk, it was the only way I could face watching Cold War again...I'm now staring glumly at the empty bottle and PRAYING that the warm fuzzy feeling doesn't wear off before I have to watch Hide...I should really go out and get fresh supplies of booze only I'm not quite steady on my feet...to think I was VERY NEARLY over my alcoholic tendencies...being a Who Fan never USED to be like this...I want my Russell T God back...

Might I suggest watching "Aliens of London" instead of "Hide". If you've ever wondered what would happen if an alien spaceship hit Big Ben. Well, there's you answer.

Might I suggest watching "Aliens of London" instead of "Hide".

Too late

"'Martian law decrees that the people of this planet are forfeit' just because ONE human attacked Skaldak? I don't remember THAT particular law being invoked in The Ice Warriors OR Curse of Peladon."

By the time of 'The Curse of Peladon' someone has realised that "All thissss 'Marttttian law' sssstuff makesssss usssss ssssound like sssssodding Klingonssss. Let'sssss sssstop!"

Why do they just call their homeworld the 'Red Planet'? What's wrong with actually NAMING it?

Why should they? We didn't. 'Earth' isn't a name; it's a description, just like 'Red Planet'.

If they'd just called it 'Red', fine, but (unlike us on OUR planet-naming-ceremony day) THEY'D obviously acquired the wits to realise that those funny little lights in the sky were actually STARS and PLANETS and suchlike. It really should have occurred to 'em that there might be more than one RED one out there.

And at least we don't call ours 'the Earth Planet'.

'They'll bring down the fires of hell just for laying a glove on him' 'You attacked me. Martian law decrees that the people of this planet are forfeit' - Cold War. Why didn't this seem to be an issue in Monster of Peladon?

(Still, I suppose we don't KNOW that Peladon didn't get blown to smithereens by an irate Martian fleet five minutes after Monster. The Legacy book and Bride of Peladon audio say otherwise but they totally contradict each other and aren't particularly plausible anyway. But such a creed suggests that Ice Warriors are a unified race with no schisms. Whereas Monster of Peladon's traitors and Cold War's Phobos Heresy suggests that actually, THEY DO.)

'For an Ice Warrior to leave its armour is the gravest dishonour' - why? I know OUR clothing taboos are very strong and very illogical, but didn't these guys have to get out of their armour to have sex occasionally (and thank you, GodEngine, for putting THAT image in my head)?

'Five thousand years ago Mars was the centre of a vast empire, the jewel of this solar system' - since WHEN! WHAT empire! Why didn't it include Earth - you know, Mars's NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOUR? I'll have you know some aliens cross GALAXIES to invade us! Yet the Ice Warriors just can't be bothered to come-and-have-a-go-if-you-think-you're-hard-enough until the twenty-first century - AFTER they left our solar system??

Why didn't this seem to be an issue in Monster of Peladon?

That was several centuries later, time enough for the Ice Warriors to amend their laws.

didn't these guys have to get out of their armour to have sex occasionally

Not necessarily. The armour could 'milk' the males for genetic material, then use robotic probes to implant it in female volunteers.

'Five thousand years ago Mars was the centre of a vast empire, the jewel of this solar system' - since WHEN! WHAT empire! Why didn't it include Earth

Maybe it did, as some kind of nature reserve, with Martian scientists studying the alien lifeforms of Earth, especially the primitive humans. Five thousand years is around 3000B. We weren't quite up to proper cities then, but people had invented farming, and cats had moved in to our houses.

That's why they didn't colonise us. The cats kept falling asleep on the Martians' laps, causing the Martians to expire from exposure to feline body heat.

That was several centuries later, time enough for the Ice Warriors to amend their laws.

Skaldak certainly didn't think that law would be amended, not in five thousand years...

Maybe it did, as some kind of nature reserve, with Martian scientists studying the alien lifeforms of Earth, especially the primitive humans.

Don't tell me the primitive humans wouldn't have fought back. Which would have promptly got planet Earth blown to smithereens in 3000 BCE.

Come to think of it, the glorious Ice Warrior empire must have consisted of uninhabited planets.

That's why they didn't colonise us. The cats kept falling asleep on the Martians' laps, causing the Martians to expire from exposure to feline body heat.

Nonsense, they're VERY picky about where they condescend to plunk their bottoms down. She says bitterly, having had a HIGHLY ANNOYING experience with Lord Jinxy a few days ago, when he - oh, never mind, not strictly relevant. The darlings would be more likely to try sharpening their claws on Ice Warrior armour, and we all know where THAT would lead...

Skaldak certainly didn't think that law would be amended, not in five thousand years...

But was he right? Muslim fundamentalists want to live by a 1500 year old legal code, while Orthodox Jews stick to a legal code dating back 2500 years, but most laws aren't actually anywhere near that old.

Don't tell me the primitive humans wouldn't have fought back.

They wouldn't even have known the Martians were there. The visitors would have been scientists, not warriors, so they wouldn't have been strutting around in full armour; they'd have worn disguises.

Another option: when did Azal go to sleep? Presumably not before he sunk Atlantis, so within the last few thousand years. If he was still awake, that might have been enough to persuade the Ice Warriors to stay away.

Also,the first pyramid in Egypt was built in 2900BC, at Saqqara,near enough 5000 years ago, so that may be when the Osirians visited.That might have been enough to deter any thoughts of occupying Earth.

Nonsense, they're VERY picky about where they condescend to plunk their bottoms down.

It's well known cats prefer to sit on the person who most hates them, in the hope that close exposure will convince the cat-hater of the ineffable superiority of felines - well know, but admittedly not entirely true.

The visitors would have been scientists, not warriors, so they wouldn't have been strutting around in full armour; they'd have worn disguises.

Like the Federation (the Star Trek one) research teams on planets protected by the Prime Directive.

'The military camaraderie, the discipline, the sequins. From the first moment Varga clouted Leader Clent with his handbag, these have been the galaxy's most prominent pooves. Where most commanders of alien forces accept casualties as part of the job, Varga goes to pieces when Zondal is killed...the aliens who, in their only attempt to conquer Earth, get as far as [celebrated cruising spot] Hampstead Heath and are sidetracked by men in PVC...when the innovative Phipps rigs up his solar projector, they all want a go in the disco-lights. Any doubts about this race were dispelled by the appearance of...the Grand Marshal...By the Fifth Millennium, word has got out, even in Third World planets like Peladon. Izlyr and Ssorg have got the honeymoon suite - with a sparkly bedside table, chiffon curtains, a fur rug and (yes indeed) one double bed between the pair of them' - About Time's 'What are the Gayest Things in Doctor Who?' article.

New-look Ice Warriors: does anyone else miss the fur?

And why SHOULD creatures who look like Skaldak have fur in their elbow-joints anyway?

TARDIS Eruditorum: 'The Ice Warriors didn't come back because green lizard-men from Mars are a good idea, they came back because the costumes were expensive and had to be justified by re-use. And when the costumes wore out the Ice Warriors were never seen again in the clasic series, and with good reason: they were literally just green lizard-men from Mars' - that's a rather good point. Albeit one which doesn't explain why New Who brought 'em back. I guess because it's made by a generation of Fans who had A Celebration as their Bible when growing up, and therefore devoutly believe that Ice Warriors are one of the Top Five Doctor Who Monsters.

No wonder poor old Cold War felt so entirely pointless.

Looks like we're reading the same book. Think I even highlighted that line.

I liked the ice warriors. Didn't think "Cold War" did them any kind of justice....

Looks like we're reading the same book. Think I even highlighted that line.

Great minds...

I liked the ice warriors.

Trouble is, they were part of the two most boring Troughton stories imaginable, plus that horribly padded and unoriginal Monster of Peladon. They were fine in Curse, but 'You thought they were evil and they aren't!' isn't a trick you can play too often.

Didn't think "Cold War" did them any kind of justice....

It did at least try to convey some sense of a Martian society, all that 'honour' stuff from the books and audios...

...Oh, who am I trying to kid. It DIDN'T do the Ice Warriors justice and frankly it wouldn't take MUCH to do 'em justice.

Would female Ice Warriors have breasts? Cos General Azzar certainly does, on the cover of the Dance of the Dead audio. Still, I suppose if they're good enough for female Silurians...

And isn't Dance's 'Ooh look, a female Ice Warrior general! Who, in a shock twist, is actually conservative rather than progressive!' stuff a bit odd, given that millions of years ago female Ice Warriors were going into battle with their dads, singing songs of the Red Snow (or something)?

She can probably thank the artist for the mammaries. 'Mammal' and 'mammaries' are etymologically related, which is a pretty big clue right there.

Also found this:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NonMammalMammaries

Interesting article! And bonus points for mentioning Doctor Who. Though 'Doctor Who has female Silurians with breasts, for some reason' - it doesn't occur to 'em that the reason might possibly be a reluctance on Neve McIntosh's part to be surgically mutilated...?

I've had a horrible epiphany. Lego people aren't human. They're human-like evolved descendants of ancient Ice warriors.

Note the hands, the block torso, distinct protruding arms and capped on head, with rigid cranial ossification. Any good taxonomist would produce multiple points of identification.

But this is an EXCELLENT epiphany! What's your PROBLEM?

DWM goes to inordinate lengths to 'prove' that '"Ice Lords" do not exist' - and our belief that they do is all due to a mistake by, er, DWM.

Luckily, let's face it, not many fans will have got too invested in the Martian caste system...

Well. THAT'S embarrassing. When you watch a monster's debut story, you expect to find SOMETHING to say about its eponymous villains after SIX INTERMINABLE EPISODES.

Um, their bodies have a far greater fluid content than human bodies...?

Oh, just FORGET IT.

They're back!

And can you just IMAGINE how exciting the sight of Mark Gatiss promising us a new kind of Ice Warrior would be, if only...y'know...we hadn't seen Cold War?

Empress of Mars:

'The creature within is at one with its carapace' – IS it, though? That Cold War one crawled out of his armour fast enough.

'The Ice Warriors. They could build a city under the sand, yet drench the snows of Mars with innocent blood. They could slaughter whole civilisations, yet weep at the crushing of a flower.' - Is it just me or is this trying a little too hard? Plus, surely the Doctor should know from long experience of humans that there's no 'but' about being able to build cities AND kill people? And which whole civilisations did they slaughter? Why were none of 'em Earth? How far afield did they go with such slaughtering – isn't Alpha Centuri's 'Welcome to the universe' a bit reckless, in these circumstances? Or are we talking civil war, here? In which case why wasn't whatshisface from Cold War more worried about exactly who was coming to pick him up?

Is this the first time we hear the Ice Warriors refer to THEMSELVES as Ice Warriors? Is Sexy translating or did humanity accidentally stumble on the correct name?

Hard to believe that, in the 1960's, when the Ice Warriors were created, some still strongly believed that a civilization existed on Mars. It would not be until the 70's, when the Viking probes landed there, that the idea was debunked.

Subsequent probes in the four decades since have only confirmed that there is no civilization on Mars. That any life there is just microbes.

Mind you, Doctor Who has done a good job at explaining this away. By the time the Viking probes landed, the Ice Warriors were no longer there (they were relocated to another solar system after the events of Empress of Mars).

in the 1960's, when the Ice Warriors were created, some still strongly believed that a civilization existed on Mars

WHY, for heaven's sake? It would be a pretty huge coincidence for next-door planets to evolve intelligent life at the same time.

Subsequent probes in the four decades since have only confirmed that there is no civilization on Mars. That any life there is just microbes.

Yeah, but bear in mind Sarah Jane Smith sabotages those probes every time they get too close to something (SJA: The Vault of Secrets).

Mind you, Doctor Who has done a good job at explaining this away. By the time the Viking probes landed, the Ice Warriors were no longer there (they were relocated to another solar system after the events of Empress of Mars).

Yeah, unfortunately there are plenty of books and audios (Dying Days, Red Dawn, Deimos/The Resurrection of Mars) that say otherwise...

Yeah, but we still have that Venusian Aikido to account for...

WHY, for heaven's sake?

Why not?

Once humanity got used to the idea that there were bodies like Earth out there it would have made perfect sense to think that God would have populated them with life as well.

Astronomers reported seeing things like canals on Mars and assumed it was proof of life.

Planets began to replace lost lands in fiction. Some authors treated the universe like an expanded Earth with life on every planet and large asteroid/moon just as every continent and island on Earth has life. Since people grew up reading/listening/watching such stories they clung to the idea even after the idea was becoming more and more scientifically unlikely.

What struck me in the last few years was how desperate news reporters were becoming over this. As they reported more and more exo-planets you could see them desperately clutching at straws hoping life would discovered... out there. You could tell they wanted it to be intelligent beings in spaceships, but they were willing to settle for ANYTHING!!! Even microbes! Even extemophile microbes living miles under the surface where we would have no way to detect them!!!

TV Tropes has a bunch of articles that cover this, such as Dated History and Science Marches On. It basically means when a long held idea is debunked by modern science.

Many early science fiction falls into this. One example would be Ray Bradbury's 1950 story, The Long Rain. Said story showed us a Venus that was a jungle planet where it rained all the time, and humans could live there. Of course, this was long before we got to see what Venus was really like.

When the Ray Bradbury Theater (a TV show that Mr. Bradbury himself hosted, that adapted his stories)did The Long Rain, in the early 1990's, they wised moved the rain planet to another solar system. I don't know what they called the planet, but it was definitely NOT Venus.

Once humanity got used to the idea that there were bodies like Earth out there it would have made perfect sense to think that God would have populated them with life as well.

In my experience, people who believe in some 'God' thing also tend to freak out at the thought of aliens. MAN was made in His image and is the centre of the universe and they just don't take well to suggestions of green scaly Baby Jesuses on other worlds.

This reminded me of this cartoon.

we still have that Venusian Aikido to account for...

Damned if I can remember WHICH books, but one of 'em had a flashback to a multi-armed Venusian teaching the Doc, and another claimed the Doc just invented so-called Venusian Aikido himself...

This reminded me of this cartoon.

Tee hee.

one of 'em had a flashback to a multi-armed Venusian teaching the Doc

I might be okay with it being from New Venus, or New New Venus, etc., but would someone name a planet New Venus if they weren't actually from there? or had some form of nationalism (whatever the 'planet' form of that is) or nostalgia for the original?

He might be talking about a Venus many centuries in the future, after it has been terraformed and collonized. He IS a time traveller you know.

In my experience, people who believe in some 'God' thing also tend to freak out at the thought of aliens.

Whereas my experience is the opposite. When I was a kid in Sunday school they taught us God created everything, which I assumed would include alien life.

He might be talking about a Venus many centuries in the future, after it has been terraformed and collonized. He IS a time traveller you know.

That's the only explanation that makes sense here.

Is this the first time we hear the Ice Warriors refer to THEMSELVES as Ice Warriors? Is Sexy translating or did humanity accidentally stumble on the correct name?

I'm voting for 'Sexy translating'...given that they also refer to Mars as, well, Mars.

At least Empress Of Mars revealed why the Ice Warriors weren't around when we stated sending probes there.

They'd scarpered with the Federation a century before.

'You don't know how relieved I am to read that you want proper nasty Ice Warriors and not the Ice Klingons out of the New Adventures, where they can't even wipe their backsides without mentioning honour.'

Let's hope Jonathan Morris doesn't listen to UNIT: Nemesis in which the Ice Warrior leader stands down her squad cos Kate is such a brave and honourable woman...(Let's also hope said Ice Warrior leader never gets to hear about, say, Kate attempting to nuke London or, worse, Kate handing Earth over to the Zygons...)

IIRC the name Ice Warrior came about in the first story because they found an alien warrior frozen in ice. It was only later (the first Peladon story?) that the Ice Warriors used the name to refer to themselves.

Well, Lady Zelanda wasn't that fond of adopting the term in Second Doctor audio Beyond War Games: Wrath of the Ice Warriors:

'Ice Warriors? The Doctor used that name for us? Why? Whatever slur they use against us...'