Moderator's Note: This is Mike's original Silurian summary:

Like most things in our politically correct times, the Silurians went from bad guys (er, reptiles) to misunderstood. By the time of the MA Bloodheat, we actually get some (temporary) closure with the Old Silurian and the Brigadier.



Doctor Who was NEVER politically correct, in ANY way.

Excluding the New Adventures with all their rehabilitated Earth Reptiles, I thought that the Silurian/Sea Devil transformation was the other way round. In 'Doctor Who and the Silurians' (aagghh! WHY has it got a title like that?) they were just like the humans - struggling for survival on a planet rightfully theirs, some turning in their fear to the destruction of the opposing species, some trying to negotiate a peaceful solution.

In 'The Sea Devils' their inclinations towards peace were more quickly abandoned, to the extent that (so unlike the Silurian situation) the Doctor decided blowing them up was the only way.

In 'Warriors of the Deep' they were cardboard cut-out villains, declaring 'let these humans die as they have lived - in a sea of their own blood'.

Mike, if you're happy about the Brig's improved relationship with a Silurian in Blood Heat (NA not MA by the way) then try Eternity Weeps for a much closer relationship between Liz Shaw and a Silurian.

You're not saying Liz Shaw has *sex* with a Silurian, are you?

Um...yes. *Shrugs*. Mercifully no sex took
place in Eternity Weeps because Liz was too
busy dying in excruciating agony, but they were
definitely in love.

If an intimate encounter between a Silurian and a human took place, the question has to be asked: "How?"
Aren't reptilian and mammalian reproductive techniques somewhat different?

Yes, Silurians produce eggs, according to Blood Heat. I suppose this means that Liz and whatshisname couldn't produce children, but that's no reason not to have sex. Inter-species relationships aren't exactly unknown - Billy and Delta, Stacey and Ssard, Susan and David, Leela and Andred, not to mention *shudders with horror* the Doctor's half-human nature...

Hmmm, yes I guess so. Didn't Gary Russell give breasts to a female Silurian in The Scales of Injustice or something?

My Who mania and my brain have reached a compromise on Gary Russell novels: I'll read them but then I'll do my absolute best to forget all about them. So mercifully I have no recollection of Silurian breasts. I do remember that Silurians and Sea Devils could interbreed, though it caused genetic problems and both species frowned upon it (i.e. usually murdered the offspring).

I'll just make this comment--it is possible for people to sexually stimulate each other and enjoy it, but without engaging in traditional intercourse. I suppose what happens in these cross-species relations is that the couple learns what excites the other, and just accepts the fact that their sex-life will be different. I guess it's like gay or lesbian sex, only with vastly different genitalia.

I also suppose it's possible that, in the course of evolving into Earth Reptiles, the Silurians gained the ability to lactate. They may even be endo-thermic, unlike contemporary cold-blooded reptiles.

First, Mike. Mammals evolved from Mammal-like Reptiles which evolved from... Reptiles. So it's not without precedent for Reptiles to develop the ability to lactate.

However, the ability to lactate does not mean the creature would necesarily have breasts. IIRC the female Duck-Billed Platypus lays on its back and secretes milk into a depression on it's belly that its offspring laps up. Also I don't believe female Dolphins & Whales have breasts.

So just because a Silurian has breasts, doesn't necesarily mean they are for nursing young.

Outside of the Whoniverse, however, you have the Barsoomians, the females of which have breasts and lay eggs. ;-)

Along with platypus (no one commonly uses the descriptive "duck-billed" in Australia), the echidna lactates the same way - both also lay eggs and are a type of mammal called monotremes.

I think we're on the same side, Keith. Of course, you're also right about your second-to-last statement. Just because they look like breasts and in the right location, it doesn't mean that they are breasts. Kind of scary, actually.

You know...it's only when you're in the middle of a conversation about the logistics of a sexual relationship between a Companion and a three-eyed green scaly monster that you realise how very, very badly you need a new series of Doctor Who to talk about...

No one calls them 'duckbilled' in Austrailia, anymore? How terrible. How else am I going to remember the name platypus without duckbilled in front of it?

Actually, I came across the discussion of sex between different aliens in a couple of Spider Robinson's "Callahan's Crosstime Salloon" stories. Robinson gets very strident about his belief that love and sex can go way beyond traditional coitus. While in principal I agree, after a while the permutations get so weird that I have a hard stand imagining who would find this stimulating. Of course, I feel that way about S&M, so he may have a point.

Then, on the other side, you've got Larry Niven's famous essay, "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex", about the improbability of Superman and Lois Lane ever, uh, "getting it on." Forget incompatible genetalia; what about simple things like smell, arousal triggers, and other stuff.

Ever notice how much the Voths on the Voyager
episode resemble the Sea Devils and especially
the Silurians?
Could the Voths be yet another splinter race
from the same species?

YES!!! I knew I couldn't be the only one to notice.

I'm sorry, but this whole idea of this super civilization existing on Earth is pseudo-science. If such a race or civilization existed, surely we would have found some traces of it by now.

I like the Silurians and Sea Devils, but I think they should have made them aliens, and not from Earth.

Depends on how many of them there were and what they built with. Weren't most of these sets pretty cave-like? And if said evidence was at the bottom of the sea, we'd need a tricorder (or a sonic screwdriver) to find anything. We're still finding entire Roman cities today and they're only a couple of thousand years old.

Hear, hear.

And anyway, we DID find some traces of their civilisation. Entire caves and seabeds full of the wretched creatures.

And with all the natural forces at work (earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, tidal waves, floods), it's not impossible to believe that we still have alot of stuff hidden (in reall life, let alone the Whoniverse) beneath the ground or sea or ice.

Who's to say the Earth didn't shake-rattle-and-roll ever 5,000 to 20,000 years and 'start again' as it were? Survival of the fittest, and the Silurians and Sea Devils lost out to us mammals eventually.

So...they're Homo Reptilia now, are they?

Are they EVER gonna look any good? I mean, if the new series can't manage it...Mind you, this IS the season that gave us THOSE Daleks and THAT title sequence, so design ain't exactly its strong point.

Why wear a mask? It's not much of a disguise, is it? And doesn't seem to be a fetish like the Sycorax or Faction Paradox masks...

What the hell does a reptile need breasts for? Aren't they a mammal type thing?

Moderator’s Note: Moved from the Ask the Matrix: New Who v Old Who section:

Danny21: Maybe the humans [exiled in The Beast Below] returned at about the same time the reptiles woke up, decided to start afresh, and without all the stupid British woman to ruin it they lived in peace.

Emily: Hang on - WOMEN are getting the blame for the fact that on ALL FOUR occasions the reptiles woke up things didn't go very well...?

I tend to blame factors like the Master, the Brigadier, the Doctor, the Silurian desire to make all us filthy apes drown in our own blood, etc etc...

Danny21: You're right women didn't ruin the first three. It was a psychotic reptile the first time. The Master mostly the second time. The minister didn't help much but he had no way of knowing the doc had made the Sea Devils change their minds. The third time it was more psychotic reptiles and the most recent time it was idiot mum and another psychotic reptile.

Actually I was surprised to realise when I saw it third-time-round the other day that idiot/psycho mum had nothing to do with the breakdown of negotiations. That Psychotic Reptile was gonna kill the Wise Leader, the Doctor and ALL the apes anyway. The only difference Alaya's death made was to actually cause her some grief, for which, frankly, I found myself thinking 'Good'.

Maybe we should reconsider this living with them thing.

Hear, hear. I mean, look at Saddam and his Weapons of Mass Destruction. Or the Enemy Mothership and its Massive Weapons of Destruction. ALL it would take is ONE human suggesting that maybe the Silurians fancy doing, um, whatever-the-hell-they-were-trying-to-do-at-the-end-of-The-Silurians - something to do with a Van Allen Belt? - OR developing that plague of theirs and we'd be pre-emptively bombing the hell out of them. Of course, in order to avoid this, the Silurians probably WOULD decide that whipping up a plague to wipe us all out in ten minutes flat would be a perfectly justified idea.

Look, just find the Silurians (or whatever they're calling themselves this week) an Earth-like planet of their own (preferably in an other galaxy). Problem solved. History back on-track - because don't think I swallow for ONE MOMENT the Doctor's bizarre claim that Amy and Nasreen can or should casually create a new Silurian-filled timeline for the universe's most significant planet. What happens to FUTURE fixed points in human history that were bloody fixed without Silurians being involved??

Even if this lot live in peace the Sea Devils and Silurians will still be asleep.

No, the New Who ones would be sure to insist on trying to locate their dear cousins. And then wake them up. And then probably have a few civil wars with them for being the wrong colour or something.

What happens to FUTURE fixed points in human history that were bloody fixed without Silurians being involved?

The Doctor gets to spend a few years patching up the gaping holes he's ripped in the fabric of history, and fending of attempts by the Master and the Trickster to exploit the holes.

We mere humans might think the Doctors shouldn't be making holes in the first place, no matter how brilliantly he fixes them, but he has higher ethical standards, most of the time: faced with people, or Silurians, in need, he'll help them without worrying about the cost. Besides, he hates being bored.

Shipping the entire species to an inhabited planet far away sounds like a good idea, but they're probably as keen on having the original as people are. If some passing time lord offered to move England to another planet, one we wouldn't have to share with foreigners, I suspect the majority of the population would say 'This is our home. We're staying put; take all the foreigners away instead." The Silurians have enough of an emotional attachment to earth that they'd take the same approach.

The Doctor gets to spend a few years patching up the gaping holes he's ripped in the fabric of history, and fending of attempts by the Master and the Trickster to exploit the holes.

But let's face it...he's not going to. Seven was the only one who made an effort to clean up after himself.

We mere humans might think the Doctors shouldn't be making holes in the first place

•••• right we do. After we got DECIMATED thanks to the Doctor overthrowing poor dear Harriet Jones...

but he has higher ethical standards, most of the time: faced with people, or Silurians, in need, he'll help them without worrying about the cost.

He didn't help the people of Pompeii (till Donna FORCED him to rescue a whole four of 'em) and THIS was a TOTALLY similar situation despite his pathetic attempts to claim otherwise.

Besides, he hates being bored.

He had a Companion whose past has been drastically rewritten, a Companion prone to sexual jealousy, resurgent Daleks AND universe-ending rips in the fabric of space and time to worry about...the Doc can't possibly have been THAT bored.

Shipping the entire species to an inhabited planet far away sounds like a good idea, but they're probably as keen on having the original as people are. If some passing time lord offered to move England to another planet, one we wouldn't have to share with foreigners, I suspect the majority of the population would say 'This is our home. We're staying put; take all the foreigners away instead."

Hell, no! I'd give ANYTHING to set foot on an alien world! Let alone LIVE on one bearing a convenient similarity to my home! With no overpopulation problem! And no foreign countries to invade us! (Or, more likely, for us to invade.) Especially if all my worldly goods HERE had met with an unfortunate accident...

The Silurians have enough of an emotional attachment to earth that they'd take the same approach.

I don't see why. The planet has changed beyond all recognition. Unless they've got some great green god who told them it was their Promised Land they should be happy enough. Especially if the Doctor locates all surviving settlements and arranges for them to be shipped out WHILE STILL ASLEEP.

Seven was the only one who made an effort to clean up after himself.

So far. Twenty-three might well decide to spend all his time cleaning up after Two, Six, and Twelve. Hopefully, we'll find out, one day. However, the Doctor does like humans If making peace between Silurians and humans caused paradoxes that hurt humans, he'd do something about it.

He had a Companion whose past has been drastically rewritten, a Companion prone to sexual jealousy, resurgent Daleks AND universe-ending rips in the fabric of space and time to worry about

And he dealt with all that in a couple of weeks, his time, most of it during 'The Lodger'. Eleven could well be under a month old. What will it take to keep boredom at bay in his second month?

Hell, no! I'd give ANYTHING to set foot on an alien world!

We both would, but not everyone thinks like us. Think of the millions of people with three dogs who only ever watch Eastenders, the ones who wouldn't be able to distinguish between Four and Six if their lives depended on it. Don't you think those people might vote the opposite way?

Twenty-three might well decide to spend all his time cleaning up after Two, Six, and Twelve.

His time? HIS time? Twenty-Three is OBVIOUSLY a woman!

Hopefully, we'll find out, one day.

God, we really might. Given the programme's popularity, our ridiculously long life expectancies, AND the New Doctors' habit of betraying n'abandoning us so soon...

However, the Doctor does like humans If making peace between Silurians and humans caused paradoxes that hurt humans, he'd do something about it.

Sure, MOST Doctors like humans. Frankly I'm not sure about One. And Three was obviously sick to the back teeth of us, not that I blame him in the circumstances. Nine thought we were all stupid apes. Eight spent his entire canonical time in such deep post-regenerative trauma that he thought he was half-human, so it's hard to tell if he really, really liked us or really, really hated himself. Ten specifically stated that becoming human was 'disgusting' (Hand-Ten I mean, not John-Smith-Ten). Six hated humans but I don't take it personally, Six hated EVERYONE.

And he dealt with all that in a couple of weeks, his time, most of it during 'The Lodger'. Eleven could well be under a month old. What will it take to keep boredom at bay in his second month?

Fair enough, but when he decided he was so desperate to hear a gay-Silurian-band that he'd rip the Web of Time to pieces to do it, he WAS still in that exciting first month...

Think of the millions of people with three dogs who only ever watch Eastenders, the ones who wouldn't be able to distinguish between Four and Six if their lives depended on it. Don't you think those people might vote the opposite way?

Well, maybe they wouldn't, IF we explained that they wouldn't even notice the difference, what with staying indoors all the time watching Eastenders...

Emily:AND the New Doctors' habit of betraying n'abandoning us so soon...

Yes, Eccleston did leave the role after only one season; but I for one don't know why-he may have had good reason.

On the other hand-Tennant gave three full seasons plus the year of specials. Only two people have stayed with the role longer(Tom Baker with seven seasons, and Jon Pertwee with five, with Hartnell running close behind with a little over three plus). I really don't think it's fair to say he left too quickly(also remember Troughton advised only stayin with the role for no more than three years).

Emily:Well, maybe they wouldn't, IF we explained that they wouldn't even notice the difference, what with staying indoors all the time watching Eastenders...

I have to disagree with you on this one: setting up a new colony is never easy, and most modern people are not ready settle a new world(lacking both skills and training to survive).

While there are no foreign fight with-there are also none to trade with--if your colony can't make it-you can't have it.

Also remember the dangers-floods, earthquakes, wild animals-none of which will be familier.

Also-if your crops fail-you can starve.

Settleing(?) a new world is not a task for the timid or the meek.

Yes, Eccleston did leave the role after only one season; but I for one don't know why-he may have had good reason.

I don't care if his life depended on it! There can be NO good enough reason for breaking my heart AND sabotaging Who like that!

On the other hand-Tennant gave three full seasons plus the year of specials.

And if only he'd given us a mere five or six more years I might have found it in my heart to forgive him.

Only two people have stayed with the role longer(Tom Baker with seven seasons, and Jon Pertwee with five, with Hartnell running close behind with a little over three plus).

Yeah, but in Hartnell's day they had a LOT more than 14 episodes a year...

I really don't think it's fair to say he left too quickly(also remember Troughton advised only stayin with the role for no more than three years).

Troughton was a gibbering idiot and I don't doubt that he bitterly regretted leaving the best job any mere human could ever hope for.

setting up a new colony is never easy, and most modern people are not ready settle a new world(lacking both skills and training to survive).

While there are no foreign fight with-there are also none to trade with--if your colony can't make it-you can't have it.

Also remember the dangers-floods, earthquakes, wild animals-none of which will be familier.

Also-if your crops fail-you can starve.

Settleing(?) a new world is not a task for the timid or the meek.

Ah, but aren't you forgetting that before depositing the lucky Eastender-watchers on their delightful new home, the Doc could nip forward in time, nick one of those UNBELIEVABLY EFFICIENT terraforming devices they were using in The Doctor's Daughter, and turn the whole world into a paradise in ONE WEEK FLAT? Complete with theatres and everything, just in case the soap opera fans fancied popping out to see a play for a change.

Though I still say it would be better to send the Silurians packing and keep Earth for ourselves. Providing a continent or two had the right climate, they wouldn't even NEED a terraformer -
they can construct walls WITH THEIR THIRD EYE. Plus, say what you like about the Myrka-loving gits, but 'meek' and 'timid' they are not.

I'm sorry, but when it comes to these creatures, my suspension of disbelief will only stretch so far.

They had this civilization and not ONE trace of it has ever been found? Come on!

FOUR traces (up to and including an entire underground civilisation) have been found - what MORE do you want?! Plus I read the most fascinating article about what will be left of us in a few hundred million years, and OBVIOUSLY my incredibly-bad-except-for-Who-related-information memory hasn't retained any details, but it was basically nothing. A millimetre or two of oddness in the Earth's crust...

It's incredibly hard to find Aztec (or Mayan or Toltec or whatever) ruins in the jungle these days and it's only been a thousand years or so.

I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon on this one-with close to thre quarters of the Earth surface being ocean floors, large chunk of all continents unknown, and no clues what lies under the ice of Antarctica_ I have no problem thinking there might be things to find.

I also agree that after 75000000+ years most artifacts would not survive.

Also-would we know what it was if we found it??

Emily:I don't care if his life depended on it! There can be NO good enough reason for breaking my heart AND sabotaging Who like that!

As I do not know why he left the show, I can't judge why he left--all I know is that HE thought he had good reason.

Emily:Yeah, but in Hartnell's day they had a LOT more than 14 episodes a year...

You do have a point there:they did work both Hartnell and Troughton very hard(both had single seasons wher they outdid McCoys entire run).

On the other hand-I think you're mis-judging Tennants output-before jumping into this discussion I was looking at the episode counts for something I'm planning to post in Hartnells section.

To be fair I had to make some adjustment to show how some things worked:

Specials: I added 4 episodes to both Hartnell and Troughton for "The Three Doctors",I also added another 4 to Hurndall,Troughton,and Pertwee for the "The Five Doctors", and 6 more to Troughton for "The Two Doctors". I also added 1 to mcCoys total for the movie.

For comparisions(?) sake I also treated a 90 minute special as 4 episodes, a 45 minute one as 2 episodes and the McGann film as 5.

While this method still leaves Eccleston looking low(with only McGann and Hurndall scoring lower)-Tennant comes out in fifth place)behind the first four Doctors)-this isn't a bad place to be.

On the other hand-if you compare number of stories-Eccleston jumps over C. Baker to tie with McCoy(counting the movie), and Tennant edges Tom Baker(44 to 42 counting "Shada") to have the most stories.

Emily: Troughton was a gibbering idiot and I don't doubt that he bitterly regretted leaving the best job any mere human could ever hope for.

Here I must strongly disagree with you-he may have played a clown here, but the few other roles I've seen him in he was a kind and wise man whose passing I truly regret.

Did he regret leaving Who-I don't know-maybe maybe not-my thought would be not(for the time he was there he had a really nasty workload).

On the other hand-his advice is good-It's never a good idea for an actor to stay too long in a role-especially as well-known iconic role like the Doctor.

If an actor gets type-cast in a certain role(or type of roll)--it can end thier career-leaving very few jobs in the long run.

In the 1930's a young leading man from Hungary took a one-shot film roll-and got so typecast by the roll that it haunted the rest of his life and beyond-the actor:Bela Lugosi, and the role:Dracula(story has it that when he died in 1956 he was buried in his Dracula cape).

In fact-this might explain why both Eccleston and Tennant left the role--both are young and hope to have long careers.

Emily:Ah, but aren't you forgetting that before depositing the lucky Eastender-watchers on their delightful new home, the Doc could nip forward in time, nick one of those UNBELIEVABLY EFFICIENT terraforming devices they were using in The Doctor's Daughter, and turn the whole world into a paradise in ONE WEEK FLAT? Complete with theatres and everything, just in case the soap opera fans fancied popping out to see a play for a change.

Do you really think the Doctor would risk the damage that could do to the timeline???

Specials: I added 4 episodes to both Hartnell and Troughton for "The Three Doctors",I also added another 4 to Hurndall,Troughton,and Pertwee for the "The Five Doctors", and 6 more to Troughton for "The Two Doctors". I also added 1 to mcCoys total for the movie.

For some reason I have no problem with giving Doctors full credit for most multiple-Doctor stories, but when you get to Five Doctors it just seems much, MUCH too generous.

Emily: Troughton was a gibbering idiot and I don't doubt that he bitterly regretted leaving the best job any mere human could ever hope for.

Here I must strongly disagree with you-he may have played a clown here, but the few other roles I've seen him in he was a kind and wise man whose passing I truly regret.

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure he was a kind and wise man except when it came to abandoning Who, whereupon he became a gibbering idiot. I seem to recall - curse my rotten memory - reading or seeing something with Jamie (Fraser Hines. Whatever) implying he and Troughton would have been happy to go on for a LOT longer in the best roles of their lives if their agents and/or wives hadn't pushed them to move on.

I'm no doubt being unduly influenced by something I don't even REMEMBER properly. But still - how COULD three years be enough? Of being THE DOCTOR?! It must be like those girls in Nepal who are taken for some-living-goddess-or-other...until they hit puberty and are chucked out on the streets and replaced with a younger model.

In the 1930's a young leading man from Hungary took a one-shot film roll-and got so typecast by the roll that it haunted the rest of his life and beyond-the actor:Bela Lugosi, and the role:Dracula(story has it that when he died in 1956 he was buried in his Dracula cape).

See! SEE! By YOUR argument anyone who was the Doctor for the duration of a one-shot film roll (whatever that is) would be utterly typecast FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE...ergo, anyone who DOES become the Doctor ought to stay FOREVER AND EVER* cos not only is it the supreme pinnacle of human existence, it's also the last job they're gonna get...

Emily:Ah, but aren't you forgetting that before depositing the lucky Eastender-watchers on their delightful new home, the Doc could nip forward in time, nick one of those UNBELIEVABLY EFFICIENT terraforming devices they were using in The Doctor's Daughter, and turn the whole world into a paradise in ONE WEEK FLAT? Complete with theatres and everything, just in case the soap opera fans fancied popping out to see a play for a change.

Do you really think the Doctor would risk the damage that could do to the timeline???

Probably not, which is one of the MANY REASONS that WE should stay put and those Silurians ought to bog off to another planet. (But let's be honest - the Doctor (or the 456 or the Sycorax or whatever) could probably remove every Eastenders fan on the planet and not make the slightest difference to Earth's glorious future...)

*Well, anyone except Colin Baker, of course. Who, ironically, is the Doctor who DID want to go on forever...

What has ANY of this have to do with Silurians and Sea Devils!?

Getting back on topic, I'm still not convinced, folks. These weren't primitive beings, this was a advanced civilization.

The idea that any civilization existed on Earth prior to ours has been totally debunked as pseudo-science.

Were they ever on land? If they had a water-based culture, their artifacts are likely buried thousands of feet below the sea floor. Hell, they could be sitting in plain view and we could still easily miss them. It took us how long to find the Titanic?

The Sea Devils lived under water. The Silurians were land based.

To Amanda:Didn't I already say something similar to that??

Emily:For some reason I have no problem with giving Doctors full credit for most multiple-Doctor stories, but when you get to Five Doctors it just seems much, MUCH too generous.

You might be right-but the real question is-should any of them be given credit???

As it was Hurndalls only credit-I did decide to be generous.

Other places I had questions:

How much if any credit should I give T. Baker for "Shada"(it was never finished or shown)??

I gave him full credit.

How about C. Baker in "Arc of Infinity"(this lead to him later becoming the sixth Doctor)??

I gave none.

Emily:Yeah, yeah, I'm sure he was a kind and wise man except when it came to abandoning Who, whereupon he became a gibbering idiot. I seem to recall - curse my rotten memory - reading or seeing something with Jamie (Fraser Hines. Whatever) implying he and Troughton would have been happy to go on for a LOT longer in the best roles of their lives if their agents and/or wives hadn't pushed them to move on.

First off: no smart actor will badmouth a show he worked on--it can lead to bad will,and might even get him black-listed.

Second: no matter how it looks tv is hard work(12-16 hours a day,up to 6(maybe 7) days a week, and up to 45 weeks a year(in Troughtons case).Add to this-time for make-up.

Add to this stunts and reshooting(in a clip with Tennant about "The Next Doctor"-he says the scene with him being pulled up the outside of the building was shot 17 times).

This can be a killing workload--Troughton died of a heart problem caused by overwork and stress--it's not stated, but leaving Who might have saved his life.

Emily:See! SEE! By YOUR argument anyone who was the Doctor for the duration of a one-shot film roll (whatever that is) would be utterly typecast FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE...ergo, anyone who DOES become the Doctor ought to stay FOREVER AND EVER* cos not only is it the supreme pinnacle of human existence, it's also the last job they're gonna get...

No-that is not my point: My point is that if you stay with a role it CAN kill your career.

Troughton had a fine and long career because he left when he did--he might not have if he had stayed longer.

Emily:Probably not, which is one of the MANY REASONS that WE should stay put and those Silurians ought to bog off to another planet. (But let's be honest - the Doctor (or the 456 or the Sycorax or whatever) could probably remove every Eastenders fan on the planet and not make the slightest difference to Earth's glorious future...)

Until the great Earth-Siluras(or Earth 1-Earth 2) war wipes outboth sides forces-leaving the Daleks to walk in and take both with little problem(the Daleks might even start the war)-and would definetly cheer it on.

So much for Earths glorious future!!!

I just realized that I forgot to include Smith.

With his Christmas special he bumps Eccleston down a step in episodes--and vaults past Eccleston,McCoy,McGann,C. Baker, and Hurndall in overall stories.

Again, what does this have to do with the Silurians and Sea Devils. How does actors being typecast have any relation to this topic!?

Tim, any healthy conversation will veer off its narrow starting-point. I suspect most people will find this less irritating than you constantly pointing it out...

Or an unhealthy one, for that matter.

In fact, being a nitpicker almost mandates living your life with parentheses as you constantly point out nits to yourself (even the Doctor does it; you can practicaly hear the parentheses as he mumbles to himself). How can any of us possibly be expected to stay on-topic in the face of so many tangents?

Hate to admit it-it can be hard to stay on topic.

Yeah, I guess it is.

That Monster Files: The Silurians on the Season 5 box set is APPALLING. Hardly anything on their rich back-story, just the actors endlessly going on about how wonderful the prosthetics are ('I can pick my nose!').

'They're not all bad guys, they're not all good guys - they're complicated' - NO ONE should regard THAT as particularly complicated, least of all Steven 'Timey-Whimey' Moffat.

The Silurians were supposed to be 'sleek and sexy'? Could've fooled me.

You know, it's pretty •••• impressive that Sea Cruisers built when there was no moon and therefore little to no tide would work so well in modern oceans. Not to mention last.

But then Pertwee did say he had no idea they were so advanced--an honest mistake given that his assessment was probably based on their alarm clock.

I never thought of the no Moon=no tides thing...

Yeah, what the hell WAS it with that alarm clock? The Bloodtide audio claimed that some evil Silurian deliberately switched it off for some reason that escapes my memory, but the massively different Silurian/Sea Devil/Homo Reptilia species we've encountered makes it even LESS likely that EVERY shelter would have been pathologically insanely dependent on the same alarm clock...

Perhaps all the different groups wanted to make sure they woke up first, so they all sabotaged each other's alarm clocks, then went off to sleep, never realising that their own alarm clock had also been sabotaged by their ancient rivals.

This doesn't rule out the various groups being passably friendly with each other. We're all friends in the EU these days, but if all Europe (and our other allies) were going into suspended animation, while some natural disaster destroyed every living thing over 5 pounds weight, then you can be sure the tabloids would be screaming that the French were planning to wake up first. Our politicians meanwhile would be scheming to make sure the French woke up last, just so the UK could have more influence in the post-sleep world, and the politicians more power.

Actually, wasn't the alarm supposed to trigger when the perceived danger--the moon--passed and stopped being a threat, but since it didn't pose the problem they expected, th alarm just never triggered? or am I thinking of the novelization or a fan theory?

Perhaps all the different groups wanted to make sure they woke up first, so they all sabotaged each other's alarm clocks, then went off to sleep, never realising that their own alarm clock had also been sabotaged by their ancient rivals.

Nice

Actually, wasn't the alarm supposed to trigger when the perceived danger--the moon--passed and stopped being a threat, but since it didn't pose the problem they expected, th alarm just never triggered? or am I thinking of the novelization or a fan theory?

Yeah, it was in the Caves Monsters novelisation...but it was eventually pretty much canonised by Hungry Earth/Cold Blood. I suppose it's better than the 'Oops! BAD alarm clock!' explanation, but it doesn't really explain how so many races assumed their scientists would be spot-on about everything. Instead of leaving a few people awake/getting them to wake up every few years/centuries/whatever to keep an eye on things. (In fact, that scientist in Cold Blood seemed to have been around keeping an eye on things (i.e. experimenting on humans) for centuries so don't ask what the hell HE was thinking of.)

Jonny Morris in DWM, on writing Bloodtide:

'I went back to everything featuring the Silurians and Sea Devils - the various television stories, books, comic strips, even Weetabix cards...in the original serial, they'd gone into hibernation, and never woken up. But there's never really been a proper explanation as to why' - yes there was. In Doctor Who and the Cave Monsters. The DEFINITIVE and best Silurian story. Whose explanation about the Moon was later canonised in the otherwise pretty worthless Cold Blood.

Also...'It seeemed that they owned the Earth before Man; were around at the same time as early Man; were there with the dinosaurs, when the Moon came into orbit...Wherever I decided to start from, it seemed to be contradicting eight other known facts' - I don't see THAT many facts being contradicted - nothing wrong with owning Earth BEFORE and during the early development of this 'Man' creature. Though now you mention it, if they WERE around at the same time as the dinosaurs - as the fact they've got a pet dinosaur tends to suggest - how come Adders didn't manage to wipe THEM out?

Also - WEETABIX cards? I'm not sure whether to be impressed or horrified at such dedication.

ROBERT in Original Series: The Sea Devils thread: Continental drift isn't that difficult to correct for, not over a mere hundred million years

Oh! Yeah, I'd assumed that 99.9% of Silurian/Sea Devil bases just got CRUSHED between shifting continents (or something) but come to think of it, I only thought the drift was so drastic BECAUSE we've encountered so few Silurian - sorry, Eocene - Homo Reptilius - um, Earth Reptile bases. They COULD all be sleeping peacefully and just WAITING to wake up and drown humanity in a sea of its own blood. Frankly the Doctor really ought to make a concerted effort to build a Silurian-detector, locate every last base, and then get Mr Smith to teleport the lot of 'em to some uninhabited, hot, Earth-like planet a few galaxies away. Otherwise we'll just be stuck in an endless cycle of genocide.

most of the continents already had their current shape; they were just in different place.

I thought that globe of Old Earth they found in The Silurians suggested drastically different continents?

A Sea Devil colony on the western bulge of Africa, or the east bulge of South America, would still be on the same bulge now, easy enough to find.

It would also be easy enough for UNIT to alert the rest of the planet to keep an eye open for string-vested greenies emerging from their oceans, six at a time...

I thought that globe of Old Earth they found in The Silurians suggested drastically different continents?

That globe shows the Earth 200 million years ago, when the continents were different, and the Atlantic didn't exist. Great Britain was a desert, in the middle of a super-continent, a most unlikely place for the Sea Devils to hibernate.

Presumably, one of the Sea Devils was interested in geology. There's no other good reason for having a globe that might be as much as 100 million years out of date.

When the Silurians actually lived is anyone's guess. The Atlantic opened 130 million years ago, and the dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago, but the apes(who they remember from before their hibernation) only diverged from monkeys 20-30 million years ago.

They COULD all be sleeping peacefully and just WAITING to wake up and drown humanity in a sea of its own blood.

Well, a lot of them might have died in their sleep through simple equipment malfunctions, rather than being crushed by tectonic forces. However, I do think there are probably a lot more survivors than we've seen, sleeping peacefully deep underground, or beneath the waves - enough to keep the Doctor busy for a few years.

'Twice before we offered the hand of friendship...'

Not only do they have a rather weird understanding of the word 'friendship' (as it apparently includes attacking, releasing viruses, etc.) but now they apparently have a weird understanding of 'twice.'

To be fair, twice ONE Silurian/Sea Devil has allowed himself to be convinced by the Doctor to try this 'negotiation' thing rather than the genocide. Unfortunately the Silurian in question was promptly murdered by his own people, and the Sea Devil changed his mind two seconds later when the humans started bombing.

More to the point, how the hell do the Warriors of the Deep guys KNOW about this? I suppose the Brigadier might just have blown up the entrance to the caves to seal the Silurians in (though the Doctor's reaction suggested otherwise) and they woke up again and Told All (including, funnily enough, the 'We tried to unleash a plague to wipe out the whole of humanity then our wise, noble old leader offered the ape-scum the hand of friendship so we slaughtered him' stuff) but the Sea Devils all went boom, didn't they?

Yeah, but wouldn't it be three times now? The events of Hungry Earth take place before those of Warriors of the Deep.

It's not unexplainable, of course. Maybe Hungry Earth its one of the times they referred to and they don't know about the Sea Devils events, or somesuch. But I expect we'll see more more new series Silurians set in contemporary times at some point.

Yeah, but wouldn't it be three times now? The events of Hungry Earth take place before those of Warriors of the Deep.

Oops. Totally forgot about Hungry Earth.

Maybe Hungry Earth its one of the times they referred to

Though if they DID know about it, you'd think they'd've woken that lot up. They seemed to have plenty of warriors, with better weapons than a Myrka.

They could have been talking about the Bloodtide audio I s'pose, except that even the most biased Silurian couldn't describe their human-eating activities as extending the hand of friendship. And damned if I can remember what went on in the MA Scales of Injustice, though knowing Gary Russell he probably only wrote it to explain away the mistakes in Warriors of the Deep.

But I expect we'll see more more new series Silurians set in contemporary times at some point.

Though hopefully just Madame Vastra.

You would expect the Silurian ark to be programmed NOT to slam into the very planet it was returning to for help.

No, that's TOTALLY what I'd expect a Silurian ark to do. They're not exactly the brightest creatures in the universe (or even just on Earth) and they are obviously (notwithstanding NA claims they came out of hibernation and formed gay jazz bands) DESTINED never to have a happy ending...

Are Silurians cold blooded? Because if they are, Vastra's clothes must be REALLY good to allow her to walk around in a Victorian England winter without going into hibernation.

Well, episode titles aren't canonical, but 'Cold Blood' might possibly be a clue...plus, they DID try to heat up Earth by, um, whater crazy thing they were doing with the Van Allen Belt or something in The Silurians...

Do Silurians have gods? I saw no sign of it before Vastra started saying 'Pray for a miracle' in The Snowmen. I'd assume she's picked up some ridiculous Victorian habits, but she then says 'Let's see if the gods are with you' - and the Victorians only had ONE god, the losers.

And then there's 'There are two refreshments on your world the colour of red wine. This is not red wine' - does Vastra make a HABIT of drinking blood? If so, WHOSE? I'd assumed eating Jack the Ripper was a one-off...And if she goes round making comments like THIS I can't imagine why she hasn't been lynched, Great Detective or no Great Detective.

Are Silurians cold blooded?

The Silurian Gift Quick Read says that 'the cold-blooded Silurians were already starting to struggle in the severe conditions...the scientists were shaking with cold. One of them, the eldest, was almost in a coma' - mind you, they ARE out in a blizzard in the middle of the South Pole so plenty of humans would react in a similar manner.

Oh, and the Sea Devils 'had far more resistance to cold than their Silurian cousins', by the way.

Do Silurians have gods?

For what it's worth, the same waste-of-space book has one of the Silurians say 'Dear Maker...' in a moment of stress.

Come to think of it, how are Myrkas OK swimming around when they've got electrocuting skin?

In Dr Who & The Silurians The Doctor notices that Dr Quinn has his heating on high, so hot that the house is like a reptile section of a zoo.

This suggests they are cold blooded.

Electric Eels seem to cope OK with discharging in water without shocking themselves.

Electric Eels seem to cope OK with discharging in water without shocking themselves.

Oh. Yeah, I suppose they must do. HOW?

That's actually a very good question that nobody has a good answer to.

It IS?

They DON'T??

I'm so proud!

I'm glad The Moff is treating the Silurians with respect. Not all of them hate us humans and want us destroyed. The Moff has an idea that both our races can share this planet between us.

Hard to believe that Madame Vastra is of the same race as the pathetic Dalek wannabes in Warriors Of The Cheap.

One can only hope the Time War wiped Warriors out of existence. This is one story I wouldn't mind the BBC burning.

I'm not sure that handing the Silurians over to CHRIS CHIBNALL for their long-awaited return exactly qualifies as 'treating them with respect' but what the hell - Madame Vastra atones for EVERYTHING.

'I asked Steven what he thought about the third eye and he said he didn't really want it. Davros has a third eye, and we need to keep what was unique about the Silurians' - Chibnall in DWM. Hmm. Seems a pretty flimsy excuse for ripping out those eyeballs to ME, but then Warriors of the Deep had pretty well screwed 'em up by then.

It was Malcolm Hulke who first used the phrase 'Home Reptilia' in his novelisation? To think we were all (well, er, those of us with any scientific knowledge anyway) blaming CHIBNALL for this BLATANT MISTAKE. But if all-time classic Doctor Who and the Cave Monsters says so, it must be so. (Well, OK, aside from that stuff on the back cover about the Tyrannosaurus Rex being a mammal...)

In the comics board, I wondered if this story that appeared in Superman Comics, in 1984, was inspired by the Silurians. The story was called the Born Again Kryptonite Man.

You had an ancient race that inhabited Krypton (they called their world Ny'l'uyl) who went into suspended animation when a rogue planet threatened to hit their world. They never woke up, and at some point, while they slept, they were replaced by humans.

Just switch the ancient race for Silurians and Krypton for Earth, and you have the same story line.

I wonder of the fellow that wrote that particular issue was a Whovian and wanted to pay tribute to his favourite show.

Thieving SCUM!

"They never woke up, and at some point, while they slept, they were replaced by humans."

Kryptonians surely?

Thieving SCUM!

I see it more as a tribute. As I said, maybe the author of the story was a Doctor Who fan.


"They never woke up, and at some point, while they slept, they were replaced by humans."

Kryptonians surely?

Potate-o, potat-o. The people of Krypton have referred to themselves as humans.

Moderator's Note: moved from 'Original Series: Season Twenty-One: Frontios' thread:

But OF COURSE humans have race-memories! Did you not SEE all those people drawing on the walls!

Yes, but only in Silurians and not in Sea Devils, Warriors of the Deep, Hungry Earth, Cold Blood, Dinosaurs on a Spaceship, A Good Man Goes to War, or The Snowmen...

Maybe only those Silurians with superpowers - i.e. third eyes that can torture you to death AND put up walls - have that effect...?

I like the New Series version of the Silurians better than the Old Series ones. I mean their constant claim that Earth was theirs.

I'm sorry, but this does not give them the right to take what's ours. Times change, history moves along. Imagine if I jumped on a plane, flew to Britain, and claimed a piece of land as my own because some ancestor of mine owned it a thousand years ago. That's absurd, and so was the Silurians claim to Earth.

As Madame Vastra and Jenny have shown us, our two species can get along.

But these are not descendants of the Silurians who lived millions of years ago on Earth. They are the actual individuals who overslept and are waking up now to find the Earth infested with stupid apes.

Granted, but that still does not give them the right to take what's ours.

Sadly, many human wars are caused by this very thing. Group A wants back some land they owned 500 years ago and is willing to kill the current inhabitants, Group B, to get it. Hey, as I said, history moves along, that land is not yours anymore, get over it.

As Madame Vastra and Jenny have shown us, our two species can get along.

Yeah, but THEY even manage to get on with a SONTARAN. They're pretty...unusual (and even THEY don't manage to get on with Jenny's parents).

They are the actual individuals who overslept and are waking up now to find the Earth infested with stupid apes.

True, but however stupid the apes are, at least THEY didn't go for a few-million-year-snooze and FORGET TO SET THEIR ALARM CLOCKS.

Hey, as I said, history moves along, that land is not yours anymore, get over it.

I have a lot of sympathy with that view (mind you, I AM currently being forced to cough up fifteen grand to buy my freehold. Plus lawyers and surveyors fees. Maybe I should have just tried THAT attitude).

But I liked the argument in the Sea Devils novelisation (like all Hulke novelisations, considerably better than the real thing) - Pertwee asked Jo what she'd do if she fell asleep for twenty years and woke up to find her home overrun with rats...

Traps, cats, poison...

Of course if the rats were capable of talking that might call for a different course of action...

and even THEY don't manage to get on with Jenny's parents

Well, see it from their point of view. Their daughter has adopted a lifestyle that was heavily frowned upon back then (lesbianism). She also has married someone of a totally different species.


Pertwee asked Jo what she'd do if she fell asleep for twenty years and woke up to find her home overrun with rats...

Not quite the same thing. Unlike rats, Humans are an intelligent species that built a civilization. The Silurians should have seen that. This attitude of "we're better than you, so that gives us the right to wipe you out" mindset was popular in Germany 80 years ago. We all know how THAT turned out.

While Warriors Of The Cheap ruined the Silurians (thank you, Mr. Saward), the Moff has made them respectable again.

So. Does the 'fact' the Moon is only a hundred million years old cast any light on what era our misnamed Silurians came from?

Well, not precisely. The Moon may be only a hundred million years old, but it wasn't layed (laid?) in Earth's orbit. Who knows how long it had been wandering the galaxy before it came and scared the Silurians into permanent hibernation.

I had been wondering if the current moon was even the first one, but I guess the Silurians' story ensures it was. So if it had been laid by a nomadic creature (even if they always lay eggs in the same spot, it must start somewhere), the Silurians would've seen it flying around, but that contradicts their account, so one assumes the egg was laid somewhere in space and drifted into orbit.

Not that I can answer your question.

It does put a higher limit on how long ago the Silurians went into hibernation. If the egg is 100 million years old, it can't have happened more than 100 million years ago, firmly placing their civilization within the cretaceous period.

Btw, that whole hibernation thing would have done them no good. If an object the size of the Moon were to collide with the Earth, that would melt and vaporize its ENTIRE mass, right down to the very center. It wouldn't matter where or how deep the Silurians placed their hibernation chambers, they would be totally destroyed. Their only chance of survival would be to build and launch spaceships to get away from that disaster, which we now know some of them did.

Btw, that whole hibernation thing would have done them no good. If an object the size of the Moon were to collide with the Earth, that would melt and vaporize its ENTIRE mass, right down to the very center.

According to the Cave Monsters novelisation (which, let's face it, gives a far clearer picture of what was going on than anything we've seen on-screen, even if its back-cover blurb DOES describe dinosaurs as 'mammals') says:

'Our astronomers calculate that it will sweep by Earth. Our seas will rise up in great waves and for some days the air will be drawn up from the surface of our planet. But the air will come back, and the seas will settle down again.'

Come to think of it - WOULD the air just come back like that? How?

Our astronomers calculate that it will sweep by Earth.

Ah, ok. It makes more sense that way.

Come to think of it - WOULD the air just come back like that? How?

It would not. Any air the Moon drew away from the Earth would be lost forever. But it would probably not remove all the air, or even a significant portion of it. It would however cause massive earthquakes (and I do mean MASSIVE), continent sweeping tsunamis, storms and mass extinctions. No doubt this was the cause of the dinosaur extinction in the Whoniverse, which again places the Silurian civilization firmly into the cretaceous.

I just thought of something. The Silurians expected the Moon to just fly by, but it settled in orbit instead. It is likely that it was its nature as an egg instead of an ordinary planetoid that caused that, the egg slowed itself down and went into a safe cosy orbit. The Silurians could have programmed their "alarm clock" to monitor the Moon's distance and waked them up after it had gone away far enough. But since the Moon did NOT move away as expected, the hibernation chambers never received the all clear signal and everybody kept sleeping for millions of years.

Come to think of it - WOULD the air just come back like that? How?

It would not. Any air the Moon drew away from the Earth would be lost forever.

Ha! I knew it! I'm a better scientist than the SILURIANS! Even if they DO have wave-powered spaceships and million-year-cryogenic chambers and suchlike!

No doubt this was the cause of the dinosaur extinction in the Whoniverse

Nonsense! IT WAS ADRIC!

The Silurians expected the Moon to just fly by, but it settled in orbit instead. It is likely that it was its nature as an egg instead of an ordinary planetoid that caused that, the egg slowed itself down and went into a safe cosy orbit. The Silurians could have programmed their "alarm clock" to monitor the Moon's distance and waked them up after it had gone away far enough. But since the Moon did NOT move away as expected, the hibernation chambers never received the all clear signal and everybody kept sleeping for millions of years.

Again, that's EXACTLY what the Cave Monsters novelisation says (well, give or take the 'egg' bit, obviously) but that the ACTUAL TV SERIES never bothers to spell out.

Surely even if it was just a rock, the Moon might have gone into orbit anyway? Isn't that how other planets get their (mercifully giant-space-chicken-free, please gods) satellites in the first place?

Surely even if it was just a rock, the Moon might have gone into orbit anyway?

Not by itself. It'd start out moving faster than the Earth's escape velocity at its distance - since if it wasn't, it'd already be in orbit and it'd only speed up as it got closer.

To be captured, the moon would have to shed energy somehow. If things are just right, the sun could slow the Moon down as it approaches, but existing satellites are more effective, for a couple of reasons. However, the Earth didn't have any natural satellites before the Moon.

It'd start out moving faster than the Earth's escape velocity at its distance - since if it wasn't, it'd already be in orbit and it'd only speed up as it got closer.

It's at times like this I feel like applying to Dastari for augmentation.

However, the Earth didn't have any natural satellites before the Moon.

I think all bets are off NOW...

Surely even if it was just a rock, the Moon might have gone into orbit anyway?

Well, no. Such things happen according to very well understood laws. The Silurians would have been able to predict the approaching Moon's trajectory with complete confidence. Heck, WE can do that. If it was to settle in orbit around Earth, they would have known about it. The Moon did something they did not expect, nor could have expected.

Silurian technology is quite durable. They were preparing to remain in hibernation for what? A few decades, a couple of centuries at most? Yet their hibernation chambers remained functional for millions of years. I'd love it if OUR engineers made things that could last that long, unattended and unmaintained..

And the Silurians:

'A small planet was approaching the world. We calculated that it would draw off our atmosphere, destroying all life. We built this place and suspended our lives till the atmosphere should return.' 'But don't you see, that small planet was drawn into the Earth's orbit and became the moon. Your catastrophe never happened.' Well. Guess we have the Chicken-Dragon-Foetus-Thing's parents to thank for the fact humanity got the chance to evolve.

'The hibernation mechanism was faulty. It did not function until a new energy source appeared.' - Good enough excuse in THIS case, what's the excuse for all the OTHER hibernation cities? Not that this implies there ARE any others - why the hell NOT! Did they leave everyone else on the surface to DIE? Obviously not as they wouldn't have died (and, let's face it, THIS isn't exactly an elite collection of top-secret scientists or anything).

'Soon I will be the leader. Help me. Or must I destroy you too?' - it's not exactly a subtle political set-up, is it. How did these people manage to build a civilisation if they ALL behaved like Henry VIII?

'He's probably chatting quite happily to his monster friends' - Dr Lawrence. Oh, you think THE DOCTOR'S over-friendly with the Silurians? You should meet Jenny Flint...

'Do I have your assurance that the humans will agree to our sharing the planet?' 'You have my assurance that I shall tell them of your desire for peace, yes' - no HUMAN leader would have accepted so much wriggle-room...especially with their own life on the line.

Brig: 'Well, maybe one of the Silurians is friendly, but the rest seem determined to wipe us out' - Brig. Doc: 'Yes' - YES?! There's only ONE of 'em determined to wipe you out, and if you believed it was ALL of 'em why were you going to revive 'em all and you've got a helluvacheek to criticise the Brigadier for blowing up (sealing. Whatever.) the caves when YOU'VE just told him they're all genocidal maniacs...

'You can't do that, you can't exterminate a whole species' the Doctor tells the Silurians. Ignoring fact that humans are exterminating whole species ALL THE TIME. Shouldn't he have chucked an 'intelligent'? Cos I'm not sure the lizards have really got their heads round the concept of intelligent apes yet.

Whatever happened to their pet dinosaur?

The Silruians are very trusting of the Doctor and Liz helping them destroy humanity. It's not as if they even demanded promises of their own lives in exchange for such treachery.

'This means nothing to us. We shall return to our base and wait in hibernation until the radiation has faded.' But now that humans in the outside world know about you, why shouldn't they come and bomb the hell out of your caves?

So the Siluarian leader stays awake when the others go into hibernation even thought he knows he'll die - what good will that do? But very principled of him given that he's an evil murder, and all. And the last, GOOD, leader certainly didn't bother.

'The Moon, of course, became Earth's satellite many milions of years before there was any life on the planet, and may indeed have contributed to its development, so the rationale behind the Silurians' hibernation just doesn't make any sense' - Steven Moffat's Doctor Who 2010 reference book. Is this TRUE?

Show-wise? Of course not.
In real life, yeah. The moon is debris from a major collision with the Earth. It probably would've made more sense for the Silurians to have seen that coming and hid underground, never to have woken up.

Best current theory for the Moon's creation. A Mars sized planet (unofficially refered to as "Theia") sideswiped the young Earth and merged with it, throwing off massive ammounts of debris in space in the process. A significant portion of that debris remained in relatively low orbit around Earth, quickly gathering itself into a large natural satellite. Tidal effect between the Earth and the Moon slowed Earth's rotation, transfering that energy to the Moon and causing it to gradually move to its current wider orbit. That process is still ongoing, the Moon recedes by almost 4 centimeters each year, while Earth's day lenghtens by 23 microseconds, on average.

Theia, btw, was one of the hundred or so planets that probably formed during the birth of our solar system. Most of these collided and merged to form the planets we know today, some were plunged into the Sun and some were ejected from the solar system altogether. Those last ones are still travelling in interstellar space to this day, far from the light and warmth of any star.

Blimey. Any idea which bits of Earth are Theia? Cos as a South Londoner, I swear you can really TELL the difference between North London (which the latest Ice Age reached) and South London (which has different rock or, um, something cos the ice never reached that far).

Any idea which bits of Earth are Theia?

When the two planets collided, they all got melted and eventually mixed together before cooling back down. There's no separating the two now. The difference between North and South London is probably due to the glaciers scraping off the top layers of sedimentary rocks and depositing their own debris when they melted. Geology is a fascinating science.

Geology is a fascinating science.

Let's not go THAT far.

I have to admit, though, thanks entirely to Who, that it isn't QUITE as boring as I was given the impression in school...

School is all about taking fascinating subjects and making them boring.

There has been much debate on this thread about why we never encountered traces of the Silurian civilisation before. But who says we didn't. Madam Vastra was dug up when they were building the underground for example. It's just that at first in the Olsen days if we found anything we didn't realise what the artifacts were or we just destroyed them as we dug our foundations (the whole do archeology if you find something is a comparatively new thing) and then in more modern times Torchwood and other government agencies have hidden all the evidence.

Plus the Moon and Adric's freighter did do enourmous damage to the Earth that would have destroyed a lot. Maybe the impact of Adric's freighter is also the reason all their alarm clocks failed.

The cave monsters (the novelisation of the Silurains) also implies that their civilisation never grew to the size of ours, so less was produced.

Here's a question though are they more or less advanced than us? I know they're in effect a post apocalyptic civilisation so a lot of their tech has been lost but outside of warriors of the deep they seem rather more dependant on their psychic powers and physical strength than technology.

Also on the prehistoric Earth the Silurians used the Sea Devils as soldiers, against who? They're supposed to have had a United Earth.

In the Book the reason the Silurians trust the doc and Liz to help them clear the van allen belt is becuase a Siluran wouldn't sacrifice themselves like that,

It's more than one Silurian determined to wipe us out, the scientist helps him and none of the others stop the hound Silurian. Even after he kills their leader. The Sea Devils also aren't much better, yes they did decide to live in peace but for all of 5 seconds. None of them said "hang on we've been killing these apes and they don't know we've just worked out a peace treaty why don't we tell them that then see what happens. And they're all cool with genocide in warriors of the deep as well.

Homo Reptila actually comes from the Cave Monsters.

I'm sure the Silurians would want Earth back I mean it was there's but as the cave monsters said that just woudn't work any more. The planet is too cold and the atmosphere too thin for them.

I assume the Silurians pet dino died in the bombing, or the brig took a bazooka or a few high velocity rifles too it. I don't know how advanced military tech was in the 1970s but a few 50cal rifles would make short work of it.

Also the Doc is wrong, the moon's arrival did cause terrible damage to the Earth just not as much as they thought.

You do have to feel a bit sorry for these guys tho, their civilisation gone, the planet in the hands of the equivalent of super evolved rats, the planet nothing like they left it.

Also on the prehistoric Earth the Silurians used the Sea Devils as soldiers, against who? They're supposed to have had a United Earth.

Well, there are really dangerous animals, like Mr Sweet's family...

...oh, who do I think I'm kidding. There can't POSSIBLY have been a peaceful, unified Silurian Earth. Silurians turn on their own leaders and try to murder 'em at the drop of a hat in The Silurians AND Cold Blood.

In the Book the reason the Silurians trust the doc and Liz to help them clear the van allen belt is becuase a Siluran wouldn't sacrifice themselves like that,

Ridiculous. In THAT VERY STORY the new (murderous!) Silurian Leader sacrifices himself to stay awake while his people go back into hibernation.

(Plus there's that fantastic scene in the Sea Devils novelisation where the Master basically instructs the leader to sacrifice some of his people so the humans can see their corpses bobbing to the surface...)

The planet is too cold and the atmosphere too thin for them.

Yeah, it does make the Eleventh Doctor's determination that 'This planet will be shared!' instead of finding them a lovely warm new uninhabited planet rather odd.

It's not as if they've got some crazy religious fixation with the planet of their birth, judging by the Silurians who got into an ark ship and scarpered...

Also the Doc is wrong, the moon's arrival did cause terrible damage to the Earth just not as much as they thought.

Why would its arrival cause so much trouble when it disintegrating all over Earth didn't do anyone any harm?

You do have to feel a bit sorry for these guys tho, their civilisation gone, the planet in the hands of the equivalent of super evolved rats, the planet nothing like they left it.

Yeah, but they could have had lovely lives IF ONLY they'd decided, like Vastra, to make love not war...

Also on the prehistoric Earth the Silurians used the Sea Devils as soldiers, against who? They're supposed to have had a United Earth.

They could have had alien invasions to deal with. I mean, why should Earth NOT be invaded every other week just because it is populated with Silurians instead of Humans?

Thaaaaat's a point. Especially once they discovered space-travel. The Brigadier blamed sending out probes and drawing attention to ourselves for the fact Earth suddenly started getting hit with alien invasions all the time...

You're right the idea that a Silurian wouldn't know to sacrifice himself for the good of all doesn't work in the book. Which is probably why they cut that scene from the novelisation.

You raise a good point about how not peaceful the Silurians are. Maybe it's only us apes that make them so hostile to each other.

The ark Silurians knew they were leaving Earth, the hibernating ones never intended too, it's understandable they'd have an attachment to their birth world, still the Doc should have at least suggested they leave.

I thought we'd agreed Kill the Moon was stupid and best not thought about. Lets just say the alien bat moves by some kind of anti gravity drive which kept the Earth from being damaged whilst it left orbit. Plus even though the moon broke up the same amount of mass was in orbit which would have helped limit the damage a TINY bit. Various media had shown the arrival of the moon caused enourmous damage (which is scientifically accurate).

Even if the Moon wouldn't have killed them, Adric's freighter certainly would. Prior to Dinosuars on a Spaceship there was no evidence they were that advanced. I prefer their description in The Cave Monsters "they're more advanced than us in some ways."

You're right the idea that a Silurian wouldn't know to sacrifice himself for the good of all doesn't work in the book. Which is probably why they cut that scene from the novelisation.

Um...was that scene in the book/novelisation or not? I'm confused...

Maybe it's only us apes that make them so hostile to each other.

I don't THINK we apes would have as drastic effect on the Silurian subconscious as they (sometimes) do on ours, or they'd just have WIPED US OUT in prehistoric times.

On the other hand, they can't POSSIBLY have killed off their leaders pre-hibernation as blithely as they did afterwards or no civilisation could EVER have been established. Maybe the hibernation process did something really weird to their brains? Making some of them more genocidal, some more noble, some more...well...inclined towards beastiality...?

I thought we'd agreed Kill the Moon was stupid and best not thought about.

I just can't help picking at scabs...

Prior to Dinosuars on a Spaceship there was no evidence they were that advanced. I prefer their description in The Cave Monsters "they're more advanced than us in some ways."

That holds true post-Dinosaurs-on-a-Spaceship as well. The poor dears STILL haven't manage to invent a functioning alarm-clock...

The scene where the Young Silurian says he'll stay out of the novelisation is cut from the book. In fact we never see then again after they leave the nuclear centre once Doc sets off the meltdown.

That's a thought, maybe being in hibernation for hundreds of millions of years had a knock on effect that made them more psychotic. It was never intended to work for that long.

I'm always happy to bash kill the moon. But as far as I'm concerned any time another ep contradicts kill the moon in any way kill the moon will always be wrong.

Also according to the novelisation of The Silurians there was a United Earth in their time.

The Young Silurian says he'll stay out of the novelisation...?

Doesn't he realise it's a MALCOLM HULKE one, not some common-or-garden, whipped-up-in-half-an-hour, shock-of-white-hair-and-young/old-face Terrance Dicks thing...?

Ouch! She got you there!

Sorry my iPad auto correct is driving me mad.

What I meant to say was; the scene where the Young Silurian says he'll stay out of hibernation IS cut from the novelisation.

Like I said in the book the Silurians vanish from the novel as soon as they leave the cyclatron room.

V117 in New Series: Season Ten: General Discussion: Vastra Insulting half arsed Sherlock Holmes rip off that has help legitimise the lazy, "Welsh" Silurian makeup

ME: Yeah, but Vastra's so good I JUST DON'T CARE.

V117: *Sigh*

*Shrugs* Practicalities over principles, that's me. I'd sacrifice most anything for the rare Moffat-era success that is Madame Vastra and, let's face it, the Silurians weren't ever THAT great in the first place. Their most interesting trait - their race-memory effect on humans - was dropped without trace half-way through their first (highly padded) story. Their second appearance was an inferior retread of their first, complete with string vests. Their third was simply rubbish. Their only proper New Who story (no, turning up as an inexplicable silent army in Good Man doesn't count) was mediocre at best.

So if Madame Vastra can actually make one feel JOY at the sight of a much-too-human-looking Silurian with breasts instead of a third eye...THANK you, Madame V!

DANIEL in Original Series: Season Seven: The Silurians: According to one of the novels and seen in Warriors of the Deep the Silurians were the ruling race and used the Sea Devils as soldiers.

Ah. I THOUGHT the Silurians might be trying a bit too hard with all that 'our Sea Devil brothers' stuff, just as the Guardians were trying too hard with 'our friends, the Monoids' and their 'invaluable services'.

On the other hand, Hungry Earth/Cold Blood/A Good Man Goes to War proved the Silurians are perfectly capable of training their own soldiers instead of entrusting this important task to ANOTHER SPECIES.

Presumably the third eye and underwater battle cruiser offset the heat guns.

Yeah, what the •••• were the SILURIANS doing with an underwater battle cruiser...?

Madam Vastra could have been any alien

I'm not so sure. There's a nice tension arising from the fact she's a prehistoric Earthling, humanity slaughtered her people...and she's married to a human. ('I was not initially keen on the society of apes, but I made the most elementary of errors. I fell in love.')

she doesn't make up for the wrecking of the Silurians, these guys were genuinely scary with so much uniqueness going for them and now they're just any other forgettable alien. What happened to the race memory malaise for a start.

Don't blame New Who for THAT! What happened to the race memory malaise HALF-WAY THROUGH THE SILURIANS! Not to mention any shreds of credibility the species had left after The Sea Devils was well and truly Hexachromited by the time someone's karate-kicking their Myrka...

Yeah well the hungry earth Silurians were yet another subspecies. Maybe they were the land soldiers and the third eye ones were the ruling class.

By the sounds of things it was rather a civil arrangement and not like oppression in human society, they aren't human after all but yep her Sea Devils were the oppressed race.

Maybe the underwater battle cruiser was to keep the Silurians in line. They only seemed to have the heat guns and no other military technology.

Humanity didn't slaughter madam Vastra's people London underground workers dug her up and she killed them all. And she's from a hundred years before the destruction of the base in UNIT's time.

The race memory malaise only affected certain people and it was hinted to be an effect of their psychic powers. When the humans knew about it they could better resist. Kind of like stopping being scared when a battle has started.

Yes Warriors of the Deep did ruin a lot but that's still no excuse.

Maybe the underwater battle cruiser was to keep the Sea Devils in line rather.

Oh fun fact of the tv series Terra Nova (where humans travel to the prehistoric era to establish a colony to escape a dying Earth) hadn't been prematurely cancelled it would have featured a race of intelligent dinosaurs that the humans would have had to fight against. They wouldn't have been sentient exactly, like the Silurians merely smarter than just animals, but it is rather similar.

By the sounds of things it was rather a civil arrangement and not like oppression in human society

Yeah, it's quite extraordinary how civilised a Silurian-ruled Earth seems to have been, given that their warrior caste turns on their own rather nice leader in ten minutes flat in Cold Blood.

Humanity didn't slaughter madam Vastra's people London underground workers dug her up and she killed them all.

Vastra in A Good Man Goes to War: 'Anger is always the shortest distance to a mistake...The words of an old friend who once found me in the London Underground, attempting to avenge my sisters on perfectly innocent tunnel diggers' - So all her tribe WERE killed by humanity (interesting that they're all women) and I'm guessing the Doc stepped in BEFORE Vastra slaughtered anyone. (Well, TOO many people, anyway.)

And she's from a hundred years before the destruction of the base in UNIT's time.

Though not before the events of Bloodtide, not that THOSE are canon, it's a REALLY bad audio.

The race memory malaise only affected certain people and it was hinted to be an effect of their psychic powers. When the humans knew about it they could better resist. Kind of like stopping being scared when a battle has started.

Nice try, but no humans knew about it (and the Doc certainly didn't warn 'em) post-The Silurians and NONE of 'em batted a race-memory-related eyelid. (Give or take the Blood Heat novel, which fails to prove your point cos loads of humans who knew about it STILL succumbed.)

Yeah it's frankly amazing that the Silurian Earth wasn't like ISIS on steroids, you'd think they'd be forever at each other's throats. Maybe it's just as well they're completely militarily incompetent.

Maybe madam Vastra meant that the diggers had accident destroyed her shelter.

Ok Silurans didn't really keep it up for the entire story but they tried and it did keep up for more than half the story and even those who were immune like Liz stated that they felt an instinctive revulsion to the Silurians. Actually it did reappear in another book, I can't remember which exactly as I've not read it but the synopsis mentions that it's a clue to the presence of the Silurans.

Maybe it's just as well they're completely militarily incompetent.

Though if they WERE, why on Earth did the Doc summon a whole platoon of 'em to rescue baby-Pond?

Maybe madam Vastra meant that the diggers had accident destroyed her shelter.

Though in those circumstances, I'd find it hard to refer to the men in question as 'completely innocent'. I mean, they must have noticed SOMETHING, it's not as if they were driving huge terraforming vehicles in the nineteenth century.

Actually it did reappear in another book, I can't remember which exactly as I've not read it but the synopsis mentions that it's a clue to the presence of the Silurans.

Ah. Scales of Injustice? The Silurian Gift? Eternity Weeps? If you can remember which one it is I'll stick it further up my reread list...

Remember that the Silurians summoned to help rescue baby Pond weren't expected to actually do anything. Doc only beamed them in after her tricked the soldiers into disarming, then the Monks killed all the Silurians with little effort. Really their sole purpose was to look scary.

Maybe the tunnel workers accidentally caused a cave in or something by digging close or breaching the shelter wall. I can't imagine it's too sturdy after a hundred million years.

It was the Scales of Injustice, according to the synopsis a policewoman started doing cave drawings.

Also how can the doc call the Silurians noble when they're so into eugenics?

Remember that the Silurians summoned to help rescue baby Pond weren't expected to actually do anything. Doc only beamed them in after her tricked the soldiers into disarming, then the Monks killed all the Silurians with little effort. Really their sole purpose was to look scary.

True, but when you're going to war you should expect the unexpected (even I know that, so the Doctor DEFINITELY does) which means the Silurians MIGHT be called upon to actually do some fighting. And the Doctor seemed to think they'd be better at this sort of thing than, say, UNIT.

It was the Scales of Injustice, according to the synopsis a policewoman started doing cave drawings.

OK, NOW I'm regretting my promise to reread soon...

Also how can the doc call the Silurians noble when they're so into eugenics?

Because the Doctor's always trying to atone for all that genocide he commits by claiming any godawful old race (Ice Warriors, Silurians, humans, Time Lords) is 'noble'?

Because a bloke who's been Rassilon-imprimatured and second-regeneration-cycled up to his eyeballs isn't in a position to complain if some OTHER race fancies a bit of self-improvement?

Because eugenics is actually quite a sensible idea* that only brings humans out in screaming hysteria because of our experiences with That Bloke Rory Shut In The Cupboard?

Because Scales of Injustice isn't canon and the Silurians don't give a •••• about eugenics?

*I can't be the ONLY person to think that Russell T God's friends should drag him down to the nearest fertility clinic to make a few donations to help safeguard the future of Who...(Or can I?)

The doc seemed to think they'd be good at fighting but as a couple of dozen monks armed with swords killed thousands of ray gun armed Silurians they clearly are extra specially useless.

Yeah the Doc does have a funny criteria of noble. Especially as he says it in the episode where the nuanced Silurians and Sea Devils have turned into genocidal thugs.

He's normally the type to get upset about infantcide and execution though

I'd rather have a few mini Robert Holmes about.

a couple of dozen monks armed with swords killed thousands of ray gun armed Silurians they clearly are extra specially useless.

When did THAT happen!

Yeah the Doc does have a funny criteria of noble. Especially as he says it in the episode where the nuanced Silurians and Sea Devils have turned into genocidal thugs.

Yes, one just can't help wondering which bit of screeching that humanity will die in a sea of its own blood met Davison's definition of 'noble'.

He's normally the type to get upset about infantcide and execution though

Well, to be fair, it's usually HIM facing execution. And he's only ever encountered babies even I have to admit are cute, like darling Stormaggedon. If he met a baby with massive congenital physical and mental disabilities, maybe he'd think it would be kinder to put it out of its misery, the way he did Kamelion.

I'd rather have a few mini Robert Holmes about.

Obviously I'd like some of those too, please...and if human cloning gets off the ground then, frankly, any Who writer who doesn't want to get a posthumous twin might feel safer to opt for cremation...

It happened in the Good Man Goes to War episode.

Just after the Colonel Runaway bit the monks kill all the Silurians and Rory, Vastra etc have to kill the monks. Then River turns up and moans that the doc kills evil people whilst saving the universe.

We'd probably clone all the actors too.

Just after the Colonel Runaway bit the monks kill all the Silurians

I'm sure they don't, the Silurians, like the other allies, just assume the job is done and teleport out as swiftly, silently and pointlessly as they arrived.

Then River turns up and moans that the doc kills evil people whilst saving the universe.

Yeah, I remember THAT bit.

RIVER of all people!

We'd probably clone all the actors too.

GOD yeah.

I know Tennant is doing his best, breeding like a rabbit with another Doctor's offspring, but a) the Doctor is question IS only Davison (now if TOM had had a daughter that would be another matter), and b) If a Tennant-clone is good enough for Rose Tyler it's DEFINITELY good enough for US...

No Strax mentions how the Silurians are still on the base when they realise the Monks don't have life signs. and we see the Monks kill them.

*Checks script* Good grief, you're right about 'No life forms registering on this base, except us and the Silurians'. It then mentions that a Monk is creeping up on a Silurian warrior but doesn't mention a massacre, which I'm STILL not remembering, which is quite embarrassing as it really looks as if you MUST be right and I'm just SO RACIST I don't REMEMBER hordes of Silurians getting slaughtered for a stupid human baby though honestly, it's USUALLY the sort of thing I'd care about...

It says something about the awfulness of that episode that you only remember River's stupid speech rather than the 'epic' battle scene.

You're right we only see one Silurian getting killed but it's clearly implied that the Monks killed all of them.

It was an utterly fantastic episode which packed so much in that one can be forgiven for overlooking the odd massacre in the excitement...

(Other Nitcentrallers: did you too just NOT NOTICE? Or did you just NOT CARE?)

I noticed there was a great big battle, but the particulars were not obvious.

Do not only are they the worst soldiers in the galaxy they're also extremely forgetful. See what I mean about the New Siluruans being interchangeable as any generic alien.

Fun fact the term Homo Reptillia actually comes from Dr Who and the Cave Monsters. And the notes at the back of the book confirm that I was right they should have been called Reptilia Sapiens.

See what I mean about the New Siluruans being interchangeable as any generic alien.

I can't offhand think of any generic alien who vacillates between kill the humans/make peace with the humans/shag the humans the way New Who Silurians do...

Well Strax manages 2 of the three, as do several future aliens from the Earth Empire times.

Fact the Silurans now bring nothing new to the table. Especially as everyone and their mother has now been crashed on Earth for millions of years in the new series so they don't even have that going for them. Cybermen, the Raxanoc or whatever the thing from Donna's first ep was, the Promised Land alien, the Vesuvius aliens.

I think it's time for the three eyed varient to return, put all three breeds (both types of Silurans and the Sea Devils) together and turn it into an anti racism episode, and do it properly this time not that bungled Zygon one. We sorely need an ep like that in Britain the days.

Well Strax manages 2 of the three

Strax isn't a SPECIES, he's a total one-off!

Actually I have a horrible feeling he may manage THREE out of three, he was certainly asking Vastra n'Jenny VERY hopefully in The Battle of Demons Run: Two Days Later whether they needed a 'man one' and whether that could be him.

as do several future aliens from the Earth Empire times.

Which ones?

Fact the Silurans now bring nothing new to the table. Especially as everyone and their mother has now been crashed on Earth for millions of years in the new series so they don't even have that going for them. Cybermen, the Raxanoc or whatever the thing from Donna's first ep was, the Promised Land alien, the Vesuvius aliens.

That's a very good point...of course, THEY'RE all immigrants rather than home-grown, but it's probably racist to make that sort of distinction after the first few billion years...

I think it's time for the three eyed varient to return, put all three breeds (both types of Silurans and the Sea Devils) together and turn it into an anti racism episode, and do it properly this time not that bungled Zygon one. We sorely need an ep like that in Britain the days.

I understand the sentiments but there's JUST NO WAY I can face Who trying to convey another anti-racism message after Zygons. Not to mention 'white kids firebombed it' still makes me cringe.

I'm sure there were aliens trying to get it on with us in episodes like the End of the World or other episodes set in the far future.

Maybe Mark Gatis can handle it better than Moffat. Trying to argue for tolerance and peace when it obviously isn't working is not a sensible plan.

I'm sure there were aliens trying to get it on with us in episodes like the End of the World

Absolutely not!

None of those aliens wanted to touch Rose OR Cassandra with a barge-pole.

The tree was trying to pollinate with MY - er, sorry, THE - DOCTOR.

or other episodes set in the far future.

I'll have you know that Thomas Kincade Brannigan is every bit as native-Earth-descended as his wife - bless his whiskers.

Maybe Mark Gatis can handle it better than Moffat. Trying to argue for tolerance and peace when it obviously isn't working is not a sensible plan.

Yeah, post-Unquiet Dead I'm not convinced that GATISS is your go-to guy for ANTI-racist stories...

Unquiet dead was over 12 years ago. That is time for any man to change.

Well, five years after Unquiet Dead, Victory of the Daleks was STILL pushing the idea that immigrants are evil. Even if they try REALLY REALLY HARD to integrate, by making you cups of tea and painting themselves with Union Jacks...

Well the Daleks would fit in well in UKIP.

Oh, I dunno. The UKIPers would have real problems with the fact their, ugg, green foreign colleagues were outdoing them on the racial purity front, and the Daleks would (quite understandably) have real problems not exterminating all their human colleagues on sight...

Funny that Jenny Flint is never referred to as "Jennifer". I mean wouldn't that be her full name?

Isn't THIS the most adorable flag ever! EVERY Who monster should get its own flag!

Jennifer "Jenny" Flint, neé Scarrity. And Va'stra "Vastra" Flint.

They named themselves Flint because they were hard as flint.

Legend of the Sea Devils:

So, they can make impossible jumps. And dissolve into green mist. And mask their traces from TARDISes. And invent 'the most formidable gem with infinite powers. Hold the keystone and you may change the course of the world. Freeze life and time. Transport matter.' *Rolls eyes*

DOCTOR: Stop right there! Sea Devil.
CHIEF: Land Parasite.
DOCTOR: All right, let's not get into the name-calling. How would you prefer to be addressed?
CHIEF: Where is it?
DOCTOR: Mister Where-Is-It? Lord Where-Is-It? - Dammit, wonderful scene but what a lost opportunity to come up with a proper name for 'em...

'Hexo-toxic poisoning. Sea Devil weapon. It's filled every capillary' - funny Davison never mentioned this when going all guilty over using chemical weapons against 'em...

'Your people are conflict-averse. Honourable' - Since when? Sure, there was one temporarily-nice guy in Sea Devils but it's just so typical of the Doctor's bizarre Silurian-adoration that she should remember HIM and not all the 'These human beings will die as they have lived - in a sea of their own blood!' ones.

The Sea Devils:

So, they can make impossible jumps. And dissolve into green mist. And mask their traces from TARDISes. And invent 'the most formidable gem with infinite powers. Hold the keystone and you may change the course of the world. Freeze life and time. Transport matter.'

Well not in The Sea Devils they bloody can't.

Why the hell does the Sea Devil shove its hand through the red-hot-metal hole its just created?

'We shall destroy man and reclaim the planet. Already we have begun to sink his ships' - yeah, as genius masterplans go, even THE MASTER's come up with better. Also, enough with the sexism you string-vested git.

Of course the Sea Devils don't search the Doctor before locking him up WITH HIS SONIC SCREWDRIVER, no one ever does at least 90% of the time in the Whoniverse, admittedly, what with the string vests and all, they have some excuse for not having grasped the concept of POCKETS...

the notes at the back of the book confirm that I was right they should have been called Reptilia Sapiens.

Well, if it's any consolation, the Ninth Doctor agrees with you. Hidden Depths: The Seas of Titan:

'Reptilia Sapiens. Or their aquatic cousins...you know, Sea Devils. Though you shouldn't really call them that.' (Yes, Nine is more politically-correct than Thirteen. Who knew.)

Origin Stories: The Big Sleep:

'The military talked about deflecting or destroying the threat. The priesthood railed against the idea of disturbing the natural order. Civilians disbelieved it, or fled into space on great ark ships, or turned to - or on - each other' - THAT'S a point, if the Silurians could build bloody great ark ships in two minutes flat (or did they just have some-we-prepared-earlier lying around in a Blue-Peter-style manner), why couldn't they deflect the asteroid, er, moon, er, giant-chicken-egg...?

They're also called Homo Reptilia and Eocenes and Green Gilberts and Ocean Demons and the Lizard Things and Earth...lians

Vastra in Rebellion on Treasure Island: 'Reptilian humanoid is, I believe, the correct human term for my species.'

This is just steadily getting worse. Seriously, NO ONE can think of a decent name for those bloody lizards?

Why do science fiction writers not look up the terms they use in dictionaries?

A humanoid is something that appears human, but isn't. Most creatures called humanoid in science fiction are not humanoid since they don't look human. *shakes head*

Rememeber Return to the Planet of the Apes? They never used the word 'humans'. The humans were always called 'humanoids'.

'-oid' is a prefix that people like to use even when incorrect and it sounds very sci-fi (because meteoroid, planetoid, ,humanoid, etc), . 'Factoid' means something that is assumed true because it's often repeated...which is kind of ironic given that so many people use the word incorrectly and assume it is correct.

(Though so many have that they had to add a definition to fit.)