Moderator's Note: This is Mike's original Black Guardian summary:

Is the Black Guardian evil? After all, he's really a personification of an aspect of the Universe. The Black Guardian can no more control his behavior than a river can decide to change its course.

Why did the Doctor think his randomizer would save him from the Black Guardian? The BG is eternal. He can wait until the Doctor blunders into him in the future and deal with him then. The contortions he made Turlough go through for revenge were quite silly.



I'm sure all that business with Turlough made perfect sense from the point of view of an immortal creature privy to knowledge beyond our comprehension, and, for that matter, beyond the comprehension of the BBC scriptwriters.

I don't know. If I were an immensely powerful and immortal being, I'd never pick a weasel like Turlough to help me with my evil plans.

And if I were an immensely powerful and omnipotent being, I wouldn't go around wearing a bird's head for a hat. I guess even superior beings make mistakes.

Mike has come up with an explanation for the hat - it was to terrorise the Black Guardian's victims. 'Look at my chicken! Do you not FEAR it?'

You know, Emily, that would be a funny scene if he gave that line to a group of Daleks or Cybermen, just for the shot immediately after which would depict them thinking, "What is this guy ON?!?"
Afterwards, of course, the Cybermen would just go shopping for jeans...

Actually, catching the end of Enlightenment yesterday made me realise I rather like the Black Guardian's...ah...ununual headpiece. It's the White Guardian who looks like an utter and complete cretin.

I think it would've been fun to have had the birds alive, as per Labyrinth - the Michael Hordern-voiced old man with the bird on his head. They could have done all the talking and the two Guardians could have just sat there rolling their eyes. Or not.

But if the birds were alive they would need to eat, and then digest and then.... well you get the idea... two messy Guardians.

They'd be too pooped to bother with the Doctor, anyway.

He's not called the White Guardian for nothing.

Did you know they came up with a Beige Guardian in the Doctor Who Magazine comic?

No. And I didn't want to know it, either. Grey I
could understand, but beige for heaven's sake
- why? I thought it was bad enough when Gary
Russell starts inventing all these extra
Guardians, but at least none of them were
colour-coded.

Well, it a very jokey strip, featuring eight Doctors. The Beige Guardian was frustrated because all the good colours were gone and he took out his revenge on the Doctors.

Could have been worse - could have been tartan/plaid.

This brings up a point. Why is everything 'black' considered evil. The Black Guardian, the Valeyard wearing black, etc. Never understood that. Is it some inherent racism in European/American culture that produces this oddness. Or is it because the night which is dark is more frightening than daylight. I don't know. Personally, I like the night, especially when it is so dark that nobody can see me and it is nice and cool, whereas during the daytime I feel exposed and I am sweating because of the heat, the heat that will kill me if I stay out too long, or if my air conditioner stops working. Maybe I have lived in Texas too long, and am tired of the sunshine. Or maybe I have some unconcious desire to retire back to my mother's womb. Whatever, the darkness will always be my friend.

Anyways, the Black guardian seemed like a pro active guy, whereas the White guardian appeared to be a doddering old fool who wears old colonial garb when we first meet him. I guess Britain will never get over the loss of India.

Lunier, you have to put yourself in the mind of primitive man. For him/her, the dark night was complete. They didn't have any way of shining lights, or seeing what was out there in the darkness trying to eat them.

Even after the invention of primitive light sources (fire, torches, candles, etc.), mankind still was unsure of the dark. It's only until the invention of the lightbulb that human society really began doing things after nightfall. So it's no wonder that dark/black/night have all come to be equated with evil.

Okay, that's primitave humanity's excuse. What's ours?

I have to agree. Modern man has no excuse. I mean, society is telling me that the juicy, succulent, dark meat of chicken is bad for my health, but the dry, chalky white meat of chicken is good. There is something wrong with this.

I could claim that Star Wars showed bad guys wearing white armour, if it weren't for their overlord Darth Vader wearing all black.

As far as primitive man goes, I would be more afraid of those tigers and lions that hunt in broad daylight (at least according to those nature shows). It seems the only night predators that could get me are owls and maybe some snakes. A little stick rubbing to create a small fire gets rid of those quite easily. Maybe the wolves would eat me, but early man made friends with those fairly quickly. Eventually they would make us take them out for walkies.

I was only giving an explanation how it originated. The only reason we still do it is by sheer inertia, though if you've ever been stuck in a building during a power outage, some of that old primitive fear might come back.

There are lots of predators that hunt by night; they seemed more fearsome to primitive man because you couldn't see them, only hear them (and sometimes not even then).

Look...it's COLD at night (in this country it is, anyway. Though come to think of it it's usually cold in the daytime too) and the libraries are SHUT at night. What more reasons do you need?

And enough of this primitive MAN modern MAN business. (Goog is of course exempt from this complaint.)

Well, back then, MAN was the dominant of the two sexes, so wouldn't it be correct to say Primitive Man instead of humanity?

Why are the Sontarans so popular, I asked myself the other day? The Time Warrior was OK, as was The Sontaran Experiment, they're only in two eps of The Invasion of Time and The Two Doctors was OK as well, but had its faults. So it's not like they appeared in any classic stories...

I think they're popular because they were presented as popular.
Because they made return appearances we all assume that they must have been good, regardless of our actual personal opinions, or is that too cynical?

ps. i actually happen to like the Sontarans.

Yes, that's way too cynical. The potato-heads were very effective monsters, especially given the competition.

Luke, I don't give a •••• how dominant males were, that still doesn't turn women into men.

I didn't say I didn't like them... I just think they were poorly served by the stories we saw them in. Sontaran characters were fine - but there I don't think they well-served by the scripts. But their ultimate enemy, the Rutans, had only one appearance in Horror of Fang Rock and that was a great story.

Actually, the amount of back story probably made the Sontarans great. We are aware of their war with the Rutans (and after Fang Rock, I wonder why they didn't win it) and the fact they are a VERY militaristic society. We gained, through watching their shows, a better understanding about them, as oppose to some of the lesser monsters/enemies we have seen. Plus, they look sort of human in a grotesque way. The Silurians never had that much appeal, though they had a much better grievance against mankind.

Emily, i don't understand your comment about males and women? Warning: this may be because I'm slightly drunken... :)
(doeasn;t mean iu don't want an answer though/)

Emily -
Okay, I understand your comment now that I'm more sober :)
Um, my point was that when we talk about primitive 'humanity' we're really talking about Man anyway, since men dominated over women then and, even at this early non-writing based part of 'civilisation', they were the ones who wrote history. So why can't we just Primitive Man when this is obviously who we're talking about?

Whoah, lets sit back and watch the fireworks between Luke and Emily.

While I glad to see that I am not the only who likes to drink too much while on the net, you have to be careful. There have been many instances of women taking a lead role in history or prehistory. So many as to make them common events rather than rare. Off the top of my head, in ancient Celtic tribes the women fought with their men, as several Native American tribes. There is some historical evidence for the ancient Greek Amazons. You know, the ones that cut off one of their breasts to better handle a shield. Throughout history men were somewhat afraid of women. While a man can never be 100% sure a pregnant woman is carrying his child, she has no doubt she is carrying her child. They seem to menstruate around the same time every month. And if we pisss them off, they can always kill us while we sleep. Reminds me of my late grandparents, RIP. Whenever my grandfather get upset and threaten violence against my grandmother, she would just say, "okay, do what you want to me, but someday, when you least expect it, I will poison your coffee." He'd shut up real quick and eventually apologise. Even in MacBeth, it was Lady MacBeth that wore the pants in that marriage. And this was an Elizabethan play based on far older history.

Never underestimate women. I am in complete awe of them, myself. It is no surprise to me that in pagan times, everybody's favourite diety was invariably a Goddess: Isis, Aphrodite, Venus, Amaterasu no Omikami, Danu, Brigid, etc, etc. In Catholicism, Mary has practically equal status with Jesus. And archeologists are constantly finding carved statuettes of really buxom women dating back to prehistoric times.

Wow Luiner, you have left me with practically nothing to say. Even _I'm_ not in awe of women - what kind of cretins would let MEN walk over them for so long? I'd just like to add that it was women who invented agriculture, so I completely fail to see how they were less important than men in the prehistoric history-making stakes.

Okay, I agree with everything said there, but I wasn't talking about those times, I was talking pre-history. Pre-history meaning before written history, as in cavepeople and all that, in which man definetaly was the dominant of the two sexes.

I just get annoyed when people arc up over someone saying primitive 'man', since the person saying this is usually not intentionally negtating the existence of women at these times but simply making a linguistic slip, which even the best of us do, especially given that the long road to true equality between the sexes has only really begun in the last century, and we have been steeped in masculine dialogue for so much of that history that it is almost impossible to get away from at times.

Ah. We have a problem. I get annoyed at people saying primitive 'man'. You get annoyed at people getting annoyed at people saying primitive 'man'. Admittedly I'm a rabid feminist, but you have to admit that, on a bulletin board dedicated to a monstrously sexist programme, it's understandable if I try to stamp down on any signs of male chauvinism?

Yeah, of course.
Cool, no worries.

What confuses me about the Guardians,and am I the
only one it does?,is this:are they really TWO
separate beings or are they really two different
ASPECTS of the SAME being?

Luiner: And archeologists are constantly finding carved statuettes of really buxom women dating back to prehistoric times.

Delicately dipping my toe into the hot water, a definitely not getting at anybody.

I saw a documentary programme about this the other day. Interestingly, the female statue they showed had no face! These statues were used as evidence that early in prehistory times, the reproductive function of women was already being emphasised over their function as individuals.

----------
Back on topic, and it's years since I saw this, but was there ever a White Guardian???

As I recall, we saw the 'White Guardian' at the start of the Key to Time, then we saw him change into the Black Guardian at the end of the arc. Could this mean that there was no White Guardian in the first place?

I was always under the impression that the fellow at the beginning of the KTT was the real White Guardian, and that all subsequent versions were the Black Guardian in disguise.

Both the White and the Black G show up together in "Enlightenment."

Thanks Mike. That answers my question.

BTW: Last Saturday's edition of "It's Been a Bad Week" on BBC Radio 2 had a wonderful parody of Dr Who's gender steriotypes.

Gushing female assistant: "Gosh, Doctor, what shall we do? I haven't the slightest idea, because I've got the wrong chromesomal pattern." --- LOL!

Getting off-topic again...there were two main kinds of pre-historic statuettes found - a) the woman-with-enormous-breasts-and-stomach (which, interestingly enough, looked as if they were made from the perspective of a pregnant woman looking down at herself, rather than just being any-old-female-with-big-••••) and b) the thin-woman-with-reptilian-head. Now, unless men had REALLY weird tastes, I'd say both types are a lot more likely to represent goddess-worship than male pornography.

Um, Guardians. Let me think of something to say about those Guardians...um...they're both MEN! Yuck! (Sorry, I _was_ trying to get off the gender-debate subject. Anyway, I know we discussed this at length a few years ago...albeit not in this section). OK...er...when are we going to get the third encounter with the Black Guardian promised in Enlightenment? (I think he may have popped up in The Well-Mannered War but I haven't read it. Anyway, it's a Baker story, so IT would be the second encounter and Enlightenment the third). When is the White Guardian going to be as powerful as the Black Guardian? If the BG could interfere to the extent of BLATANTLY using Turlough and Wrack as his agents, why couldn't he just drop a rock on the Doctor's head himself/find slightly more competent employees? And why is he so worried about the rules anyway - who'd enforce them if he broke them? And when the Doctor stops using the randomiser (can't remember which story) why isn't he a bit more worried about the Black Guardian pouncing?

Back to being off topic.

Sophie, what makes you think that men carved those statuettes? It could just as easily been carved by women. The fact they had no faces makes them a symbol of womenhood, rather than individual women the carver may have known. The image of them being full breasted and pregnant makes them as creators of life rather than some pornographic iconery. There is no evidence at all as to the identity of the carvers.

I have to agree with Emily on women inventing agriculture. In some tribes in South America that haven't tasted modern times the men go out to hunt for meat while the women brewed a kind of beer to trade for that meat. There is quite of lot of evidence that alcohol was the main reason why humans settled down and started farms. Women could be the first brewers.

If one was religious (which I'm not), then women are closer to God. Women create life, like god, whereas men have a very minor roll in the reproductive process. It is no wonder that primitive man were scared and in awe of women. And still are, apparently. Look at all those societies that degrade women. I will always think that women are better than us guys. Us men are just sperm donors and nothing more.

But hey, that's just my beliefs.

I think a lot of this is discussed in Robert Graves' book, "The White Goddess", which discusses the possibility that most all early civilization was a matriarchy, not a patriarchy. Women were viewed as part god, because they had the ability to create life. This belief had its roots in the misunderstanding of the birth process, as primitive people had not quite made the connection that sex=babies.

Hmmmm. Think I preferred the chicken debate....

The egg came first, of course.

Or are you talking about the Guardian chickens?

Back to the Guardians, the Black Guardian represents chaos and the White represents order. Now, I have always been puzzled by this. Throughout history and literature order = good, chaos = bad. Why is that? If the Black Guardian wins, there will be chaos in the universe. What's so bad about that? Sounds pretty cool to me. I personally like chaos in my life. It keeps it interesting. That's where creativity comes from.

Yeah, the reality of the situation is that you need both order AND chaos in balance to survive. This is what's represented by the Yin/Yang symbol. Too much chaos and you have entropy; too much order, and you have paralysis.

Why is the Black Guardian always more powerful than the White? Even after the Key to Time has been used to restore the balance, the White needs all the (infinite, more-or-less) power of the TARDIS just to whisper a few pointless warnings, whereas the Black is popping up and roaring his head off at Turlough every two minutes.

A statement about the basic nature of the universe, perhaps? To hear cable news tell it, the whole world is full of evil people trying to take advantage of stupid people.

Cable news has a point. Like a Sontaran, human existence is nasty, brutish and short. It's just difficult to tell whether this applies to the Whoniverse as a whole. Certainly looks that way, but we have got to bear in mind the Doctor's penchant for turning up at the worst possible time in a planet's history. (And on the rare occasions when he visits a dead-boring planet where nothing happens (Dido, Dulcis - first time round anyway) the BBC cameras can't be bothered to record it for posterity.)

An awful lot of the universe seems covered with humanity (or as close to humanity as makes no difference) and most aliens seem hell-bent on conquering Earth for no readily apparent reason.

But hey, there ARE a few races around that might, just possibly, give one cause to hope that not EVERYONE in the cosmos is as unpleasant as humanity. Hmm...

Thals: Warmongering pre-Genesis, and warmongering again (and for the rest of their history) after the Doctor's got his hands on them for five minutes. Sexist, insipid and extremely unsuccessful during their pacifist period.

Sensorites: Not averse to a little treachery, murder, and driving-people-insane. Still, their fear of loud noises makes war unlikely.

Didonians: Supposedly ultra-peaceful race. For a start, that's only because there are so few of them any kind of violence would be suicide. For another thing - who does the Doctor think he's kidding! The Didonians dedicated their LIVES to creating death-traps!

Menoptra: I have a feeling those butterfly people might be quite nice. On the other hand: a) they were being oppressed, which can make hitherto DEEPLY unpleasant people (e.g. Tharils) seem sympathetic, b) I never watch The Web Planet, and c) when I do my brain goes on strike, so any observations are somewhat unreliable.

Dulcinians: Even their sartorial and sexist crimes pale into insignificance beside their sheer unadulterated tediousness. I'd take chaos above THIS anyday.

Alpha Centurians: Got the impression (from some Benny short story or other) they were all rather similar to the one we've met. Points for non-sexism, well-meaningness and being too highly-strung to engage in wars, but there's a certain hypocritical readiness to blow Peladon to smithereens.

Solonians: A fairly unpleasant bunch when being primitives and mutts. And on evolving to superbeing, practically the first thing Ky does is murder the Marshal. Perfectly justified, but nonetheless a sign that the Solonians probably aren't going to boost the universe's 'nice' quotient.

Kastrians: They genocide their ENTIRE RACE on the one-in-three-million chance that Eldrad might survive, and the one-in-god-knows-what chance that s/he might return and lead them to war. Either they are really, REALLY peace-loving or they're stark raving mad. (And if they're so peace-loving...why the expectation that they'd join an Eldradian Crusade?)

Trakenites: So much peace and tranquility that evil just shrivels up...unless you're a native, of course, in which case chances are you're a corrupt treacherous incompetent murderer.

Logopolitans: Wow. Full marks for self-sacrifice. Pity they're so bloody miserable.

Deva Lokans: Quite nice in a very stupid kind of way. At least until they all start following a crazed megalomaniac.

Cryons: See above re oppressed natives.

Lakertyans: Bunch of miserable cowards who'd rather all die than accept a bit of foreign help.

So...things not looking too good for the White Guardian, then. But as long as the Doctor's around he, and the bird on his head, should be alright. Oh, and there's always the People. OK, so they're run by God (always a bad sign) AND they came extremely close to ripping the universe apart in a war with the Time Lords, but what the hell. That Worldsphere is utopian.

Hmmm, the Black Guardian is never said to represent 'evil' (just as the White Guardian isn't 'good'). They're actually described in terms of order and chaos - usually a bad sign, though leaving open the possibility that the Doctor might one day have to side with the Black Guardian.

Nonsense! The Doc would NEVER side with the BG. Unless BG stuck a white bird on his head, and the Doctor was having an off day...

Possibly not - but a lot of the Doctor's enemies are keen on imposing their own authoritarian order on the universe. It's not hard to magine a story where the Doctor had to work for the Black Guardian to prevent the Daleks from taking over the universe.

There's also the curious factor of the Black Guardian taking his defeat by the Doctor very personally at the end of 'The Armageddon Factor'. Could it possibly be because that, although the Doctor sides with the White Guardian for reasons of cosmic balance, he was previously an agent of the Black?

The Doctor is perfectly capable of stopping the Daleks take over the universe without any alliance with the Black Guardian, thank you very much. (These things never work out very well, as he learnt the hard way after shaking hands with the Master in Logopolis.)

And anyway, the Daleks are hardly agents of order. They are, in fact, the kind of mischief-makers who'd create an entire race of silly robots, pretend to have a galactic war with them, trick the Doctor into blowing up the wrong planet, and drag their creator to Skaro in order to start a civil war. All for fun. (Apparently. Given that there's never been a rational explanation of such behaviour.)

Given the choice between universal authoritarianism and universal chaos, the Doctor would, naturally, stop 'em both. (See The Wormery. On second thoughts, don't.)

And why shouldn't the Black Guardian take his defeat personally? The supreme being of the universe (one of 'em, anyway) robbed of his chances of eternal chaos by some bloke who can't even hang onto a radio telescope properly.

Precisely, the Doctor would try to stop them both (or treat them both equally). Since we've seen that he'll work for the White Guardian on occasion (albeit under threat of "nothing" happening to him. Ever.) there's no reason why he shouldn't also undertake the odd bit of work for the Black from time to time.

After the Doc denies the Black Guardian Enlightenment the White Guardian points out that he also denied said Guardian the Key to Time and that 'he will be waiting for the third encounter'. Well, I can just about understand the weakling not noticing the Doc and the BG bumping into each other in Well-Mannered War, but he was THERE while the Doctor and BG were fighting over the Key To...Sorry, Key 2 Time in the audios. So what exactly is his PROBLEM?

Still, David Troughton makes a surprisingly good Black Guardian. You wouldn't think it of that Peladonian wimp.

Still, David Troughton makes a surprisingly good Black Guardian. You wouldn't think it of that Peladonian wimp.

David Troughton is, of course, the son of Patrick Troughton.

When did he play the BG?

Big Finish did a cringingly-named Key 2 Time trilogy recently, starring the Fifth Doctor and both Guardians.

Of course, no one can compare with Valentine Dyall (and the bird on his head was also sorely missed, what with this being an audio) but Troughton did a good job. And it's not as if they need an excuse for the change of actor, what with the Guardians only pretending to be in that humanoid (plus bird) form anyway...

I wonder if there's any way to bring the Guardians back? Or the Eternals? What was their role in the Time War or were they even affected? What can the Doctor do against extremely powerful beings when they don't play by their own rules?

It doesn't matter how all-powerful and not-playing by the rules they are - our Doctor will STILL wipe the floor with 'em.

Come to think of it, where the hell WERE the Guardians and Eternals during the Time War? What would happen to THEM if Rassilon went through with the whole end-of-time scheme? Or, indeed, Davros and his end-of-all-the-universes one? At the very best they'd lose all those Ephemerals who make their lives interesting...Presumably they expected the Doctor to sort it all out, but the least they could do was send him a WARNING...the White Guardian was always popping up with massively useless advice like 'Beware the Black Guardian' during the Key to Time...

Actually, that might just explain what the hell all that Bad Wolf stuff in Turn Left was all about - we just assumed that somehow it was Rose, but if a Guardian did it, it might make slighly more sense...

the hell WERE the Guardians and Eternals during the Time War?

Apparently, the Eternals fled across the void, looking for a safer universe. It was that, or become collateral damage in the Time War. The Black Guardian seems to have changed his outfit, and is now calling himself the Trickster, which only leaves the White Guardian unaccounted for.

The Black Guardian is the Trickster, I like it. One wonders what multitudes it represents though.

But the Eternals couldn't escape the Daleks' reality bomb by fleeing this universe.

Only today I was thinking about the Black & White guardians, & wondering if anyone had considered bringing them back.

Apparently, the Eternals fled across the void, looking for a safer universe. It was that, or become collateral damage in the Time War.

Says who?!

The Black Guardian is the Trickster, I like it.

Seconded. They are INCREDIBLY similar. Even if the Trickster seems oddly fixated with Earth (the Black Guardian at least had the decency to be about the only person in the cosmos NOT utterly fixated with this planet) and seems not to have heard of the Doctor before encountering Sarah in Whatever Happened...(but he was probably lying. Bad guys do that. Though why he'd bother, given that she's his perpetual prisoner...)

Only today I was thinking about the Black & White guardians, & wondering if anyone had considered bringing them back.

I doubt it - they don't fit particularly well with the New Who ethos that the DOCTOR is the universe's highest authority...as well he SHOULD be...

RTD said the Eternals fled, I think in one of the annuals.

Ah! Right. I really must give those annuals another chance...well, the ones with sacred RTG words in 'em anyway...

ROBERT in Androids of Tara section: AT one point, I forget when exactly, Romana mentions never having expected to see the White Guardian, and the Doctor comments she still might not have.

Ooh! I'll look out for that. Though for the BG to provide the Doctor with a Tracer is going a bit far for a double-bluff, isn't it? And didn't the White Guardian TELL the Doc he was supplying him with a Companion (whereupon the Doctor started begging him not to)? Things would get REALLY complicated if the Black Guardian popped along to the White's sphere of influence, nipped into the TARDIS and murdered the chosen Companion (or yelled at some Turlough-like figure to do it for him) and replaced her/him with Romana without her, the Doc OR the White Guardian noticing...

The suggestion is that it was the Black Guardian in disguise who told the Doctor he was providing a companion, etc. By lying to the Doctor, he tricks him into assembling the key to time, then takes the completed object and uses it to wield ultimate power.

Oh! Yeah, that makes...if not actual SENSE, at least more sense than most of the Black Guardian's Cunning Plans. But really, if that was the case the Doctor should have been able to spot his overpowering evil (as he did in Armageddon Factor) AND should have been able to spot that he was lying about the Key being needed cos the universe was slipping into chaos.

If it were Seven, I'd assume he knew the truth all along, and was just pretending to be fooled to lure the Black Guardian into complacency.

Four is rather more honest, so my guess is the Doctor had doubts about the supposed White Guardian from the start. White isn't necessarily nice - he's the guardian of order, but dictatorships are very orderly places, with lots of laws. Also, the Black Guardian isn't the only powerful evil that might be impersonating him: there's Fenric, the Celestial Toymaker, Rassilon in a bad mood ...

Going along with the plan until he's sure what's going on is sensible enough. That way, at least the Key to Time is in safe hands: the Doctor's. Refuse, and the supposed White Guardian might recruit the Monk or the Rani - not the Master, no one would be quite insane enough to let him anywhere near that kind of power.

The Doctor was the Black Guardian's first choice - being by far the most competent Time Lord - but there were alternatives.

so my guess is the Doctor had doubts about the supposed White Guardian from the start.

You're REALLY taking this theory seriously, aren't you...there's just that one line in Season 16 to support it, and nothing in the Black Guardian trilogy, not to mention in the relevant books and audios (Well Mannered War, Key 2 Time).

Plus it all being for nothing and the Key dissassembling without even restoring the balance would be the one thing that would make Season 16 even MORE pointless than it already is.

Though I have to admit, Ribos's 'White Guardian' was awfully threatening towards the Doctor's life ('Nothing will happen to you...EVER') for someone who the Doctor claimed in Armageddon Factor would have such reverence for one mere human life that he'd put Astra above the future of the universe...

Also, the Black Guardian isn't the only powerful evil that might be impersonating him: there's Fenric, the Celestial Toymaker, Rassilon in a bad mood ...

Or of course the Trickster, assuming of course that he wasn't the Black Guardian all along...

Going along with the plan until he's sure what's going on is sensible enough. That way, at least the Key to Time is in safe hands: the Doctor's.

AND ROMANA'S. Who, if you're correct, is actually a Black Guardian agent. Albeit an unwitting one - maybe the BG should have picked someone who KNEW what they were meant to be doing. Romana's stupidity would hinder the Doctor, but not by much as he's used to compensating for the mistakes of his inferior pets. (It was when Romana actually looked as if she might be his superior for five minutes that he got totally thrown.) And come to think of it, if the BG DOES want the Key assembled as fast as possible, picking Romana for general patheticness and stupidity wouldn't be doing himself a favour.

Refuse, and the supposed White Guardian might recruit the Monk or the Rani

Who we could be fairly sure would mess it up even BEFORE the Doctor inevitably arrived to foil their Fiendish Schemes.

The Doctor was the Black Guardian's first choice - being by far the most competent Time Lord - but there were alternatives.

Though the BG wouldn't WANT someone TOO competent...

And I still say that if the Doc can 'see the threads that bind the universe together and mend them when they break' he should be able to sense whether said universe was about to tip into eternal chaos.

it all being for nothing and the Key dissassembling without even restoring the balance

The Doctor said the few seconds he had the Key assembled for in Armageddon factor were long enough to restore the balance.

Though I have to admit, Ribos's 'White Guardian' was awfully threatening towards the Doctor's life

Exactly. That doesn't prove the 'White' Guardian was an imposter, but it is suspicious.

maybe the BG should have picked someone who KNEW what they were meant to be doing

Like Turlough? That didn't work very well. The only people who will work for the BG without being tricked are blatantly evil, so wouldn't fool the Doctor for long, and tricking any Time Lord into deliberately sabotaging the Doctor wouldn't work; they know too much to believe he's actually evil.

if the BG DOES want the Key assembled as fast as possible, picking Romana for general patheticness and stupidity wouldn't be doing himself a favour.

But the more competent the person he picks, the more likely they are to see through him, and take action.

if the Doc can 'see the threads that bind the universe together and mend them when they break' he should be able to sense whether said universe was about to tip into eternal chaos.

He didn't notice that it should already have been overrun by entropy until Logopolis, and heat death would be a form of eternal chaos - no order, just completely random fluctuations.

Thus, the universe really was on the edge of toppling into eternal chaos, kept from falling only by the Lopolitans, but it would have been a pretty boring form of chaos, not to the Black Guardian's taste.

The Doctor said the few seconds he had the Key assembled for in Armageddon factor were long enough to restore the balance.

Yeah, but if the White Guardian was, in fact, the Black Guardian, he might have been lying about the universal balance needing to be restored in the first place.

Though I have to admit, Ribos's 'White Guardian' was awfully threatening towards the Doctor's life

Exactly. That doesn't prove the 'White' Guardian was an imposter, but it is suspicious.

To me it merely suggested that he had a...strenuous attitude towards maintaining law and order. It makes sense than an immortal being with responsibility for the entire cosmos would regard everyone, even the Doctor, as flies to be swatted if they got in the way.

In fact, it was the Doctor thinking that the White Guardian would have such reverence for human life that he'd place Astra's wellbeing over the future of the Key to Time that I've always found rather weird.

Incidentally, are they Guardians for ALL universes or is each alternative universe unlucky enough to get its own parallel version of 'em?

and tricking any Time Lord into deliberately sabotaging the Doctor wouldn't work; they know too much to believe he's actually evil.

The Time Lords don't CARE if the Doc's actually evil. They want to put him on trial/torture him/vaporise him ANYWAY.

He didn't notice that it should already have been overrun by entropy until Logopolis

Yeah, what a moron.

Thus, the universe really was on the edge of toppling into eternal chaos, kept from falling only by the Lopolitans, but it would have been a pretty boring form of chaos, not to the Black Guardian's taste.

I don't think eternal nothingness would really be definited as chaos.

So - why is the BG so BAD at controlling someone as weak-willed as Turlough? He keeps claiming that 'I invade every particle of your being' 'You will absorb my will, you are to be consumed with my purpose.' But a third-rate hypnotist could do better.

The Time Lords don't CARE if the Doc's actually evil. They want to put him on trial/torture him/vaporise him ANYWAY.

Some of them, but not just for the sake of it. They'll not help the Black Guardian kill the Doctor unless they think they're going to get something out of it, and the Doctor ought to be able to spot anyone evil enough to sell their services for ultimate power.

I don't think eternal nothingness would really be defined as chaos.

Entropy doesn't produce nothingness though, just perfect randomness, which is pretty chaotic.

So - why is the BG so BAD at controlling someone as weak-willed as Turlough?

Controlling things is antithetical to his nature. He is chaos, anarchy incarnate, the last person who should be giving orders. It's the White Guardian who's all about imposing order, controlling what happens, as with his threat to the Doctor. Presumably, the BG is giving orders because he doesn't feel like obeying any rules, even the ones about how he's supposed to act.

Some of them, but not just for the sake of it. They'll not help the Black Guardian kill the Doctor unless they think they're going to get something out of it

I'm not so sure. The Doctor just doesn't fit into Gallifreyan society, and they were such sticklers for their lives of peace and ordered boredom that that MIGHT just be enough.

Plus, all hell DOES have a tendency to break out whenever he's home.

(Plus, he IS destined to blow the planet sky-high. Some petty-minded people might possibly hold a grudge, if the Matrix drops a few hints about THAT...)

and the Doctor ought to be able to spot anyone evil enough to sell their services for ultimate power.

He didn't spot Borusa. ('Your little charade with the Castellan had me fooled at first'.) Half the time he's even in denial about THE MASTER.

Entropy doesn't produce nothingness though, just perfect randomness, which is pretty chaotic.

Really? I kinda got the impression from phrases like 'heat death' that the universe would be rather...DEAD. Admittedly I never watch Logopolis if I can help it, and don't understand a word of it when I do.

Presumably, the BG is giving orders because he doesn't feel like obeying any rules, even the ones about how he's supposed to act.

I thought the entire point of him using Turlough was that the BG WAS trying to obey the rules - 'I cannot be seen to act'.

I kinda got the impression from phrases like 'heat death' that the universe would be rather...DEAD

Dead isn't the same as non-existent. The heat death is like putting the entire universe in the blender, then smearing it out very thinly across all space. Matter still exists, but not life, nor any form of order.

I thought the entire point of him using Turlough was that the BG WAS trying to obey the rules

He was trying to obey the rules because he shouldn't be: paradoxical logic, but chaos is like that. Order, on the other hand, is very popular in tyrannies - a place for everyone, and everyone firmly nailed in place -which makes it rather surprising the Doctor thinks he's the good one.

The heat death is like putting the entire universe in the blender, then smearing it out very thinly across all space. Matter still exists, but not life, nor any form of order.

Ooh, very interesting, I had no idea! Utopia gave me the impression the stars went out and it got pretty cold...

He was trying to obey the rules because he shouldn't be

I disagree - I'm pretty sure the BG was at least paying lip-service to the rules because he HAD to, that the cosmos was set up in such a way that he was balanced by the White Guardian (at least unless he got an advantage like Enlightenment or the Key to Time) and any deviation would be like trying to break a natural law like gravity - difficult.

Order, on the other hand, is very popular in tyrannies - a place for everyone, and everyone firmly nailed in place -which makes it rather surprising the Doctor thinks he's the good one.

Maybe he's like Peter Dalton - easily confused by white robes ;)

But yes, it's weird in the same way that the 'miniature cross people' in the Tesselector accept the Doctor as one of their own. NO ONE leaves more chaos in his wake than the Doctor, as both Blon and Davros have pointed out.

Utopia gave me the impression the stars went out and it got pretty cold...

That would happen, but only because the universe is so empty. Smear all the matter and energy in it out evenly (in a mathematical sense, which still allows for some bits to be lumpier than others) and it all ends up as very sparse, very cold, gas and dust. It's still there, but so thinly spread that human eyes can't see anything.

it's weird in the same way that the 'miniature cross people' in the Tesselector accept the Doctor as one of their own.

Well, if they're weren't on the Doctor's side, they'd have to be on his enemies, but you'd have to be pretty deluded to think the Master and Davros are good guys. Logically then, they're on the Doctor's side.

The logic is flawed - there can be more than two sides - but it's the kind of thing people can easily talk themselves into believing.

As for the Doctor's attitude to the White Guardian, my guess is that as a Time Lad, he heard too many stories about the benign White Guardian, and his best friend, Rassilon, all propaganda written by Rassilon. Gallifrey is a very orderly place, after all, except when the Doctor visits, and Rassilon had quite an ego.

As for the Doctor's attitude to the White Guardian, my guess is that as a Time Lad, he heard too many stories about the benign White Guardian, and his best friend, Rassilon, all propaganda written by Rassilon.

I got the impression the Doc must have picked up his Guardian-info during his travels. The Time Lords don't seem the type to acknowledge any sort of superior being to THEMSELVES. Rassilon doesn't like sharing his glory with anyone (look at the way he STEALS credit from poor lost Omega for harnessing the black hole). And why, if he was so well-known and honoured on Gallifrey, did the White Guardian bother pretending to be the President when recruiting Romana?

Hmm. Must rewatch that scene where the Doc breaks the whole White/Black Guardian news to Romana. Was it Stones of Blood?

I got the impression the Doc must have picked up his Guardian-info during his travels.

Where from? The Guardians don't act openly, so only the cosmically well connected, like Rassilon, are likely to have heard of them.

The Time Lords don't seem the type to acknowledge any sort of superior being to THEMSELVES.

Didn't half of them worship the Eternals, according to President Romana? Anyway, even if they didn't, they quite capable of convincing themselves that the guardians are a couple of Rassilon's surviving minions, inferior to Time Lords, of course, but still serving a useful function by keeping the universe in balance, which would be beneath the dignity of a true Time Lord.

I got the impression the Doc must have picked up his Guardian-info during his travels.

Where from? The Guardians don't act openly, so only the cosmically well connected, like Rassilon, are likely to have heard of them.

Well, y'know...the Doctor can see the threads that bind the universe together. Meglos says so, so it must be true.

Presumably he spotted said threads pretty soon before Ribos Operation or he'd've named-dropped the Universal Gods before. (On the other hand, he never mentions 'em since if he can help it...there's something about a Univeral Authority that's fundamentally at odds with the Whoniverse.)

Didn't half of them worship the Eternals, according to President Romana?

Yup - the eternals/goddesses Time, Death and Pain...our Doc being an avatar of Time.

Thanks be to RTG this nonsense has been thoroughly decanonised.

they quite capable of convincing themselves that the guardians are a couple of Rassilon's surviving minions, inferior to Time Lords, of course, but still serving a useful function by keeping the universe in balance, which would be beneath the dignity of a true Time Lord.

True Time Lords spend their days whinging about their dodgy hips or about being on traffic-control. They'd probably have to admit that being The Guardian of Light in Time or The Guardian of Dark in Time was slightly more important...

...Which means, of course, that they're unlikely to acknowledge the very existence of the Guardians if they can possibly help it.

(Especially since Gary Russell invented four MORE of the buggers.)

(Especially since Gary Russell invented four MORE of the buggers.

Since the novels are no longer canon, we're back to two.

And as such, there's no President Romana either.

Presumably he spotted said threads pretty soon before Ribos Operation or he'd've named-dropped the Universal Gods before

Probably not. He probably found out about them early on, but didn't want to acknowledge any higher authority.

Thanks be to RTG this nonsense has been thoroughly decanonised.

Hardly. As I see it, all the books are canon unless explicitly contradicted, and even then, they did happen before the Time War made them unhappen.

They'd probably have to admit that being The Guardian of Light in Time or The Guardian of Dark in Time was slightly more important...

You may be underestimating their arrogance. To the average Time Lord, 10,000 galaxies ground beneath the heel of a tyrant is infinitely less important than deciding if their collar should be 2mm higher. As with cats, anything that doesn't affect them personally is supremely unimportant.

As I see it, all the books are canon unless explicitly contradicted

Not according to the Nitpicker's rules. All sources must be considered canon by the series' creators. RTD is a creator (among many others).

Hardly. As I see it, all the books are canon unless explicitly contradicted, and even then, they did happen before the Time War made them unhappen.

Nope, that's not how it works. Television trumps books, always has. Once the cameras started rolling on Rose, out the books went.

There are only two Guardians, Romana remains in E-Space, Liz Shaw and Dodo are alive and well, Peladon is still part of the Federation, Sarah Jane never married, and so on...

All sources must be considered canon by the series' creators. RTD is a creator (among many others).

And he's said we're free to count the books or not, as we please. Nor has the BBC made any definitive statements on canon.

TV takes precedence over the books, of course, but where they're compatible, the books can supplement canon.

The question of what is canon and what isn't is a tough one to answer.

What I've ALWAYS found to work is to assume that unless there is very good proof otherwise that no book is ever canon.

I've been reading novels/adaptations and tech books since before Emily(who not long ago was gripping about how old she is) was born-and I have yet to find even one that stands the test of time to become canon.

I've even seen entire series declaired non-canon(except for part of one story).

I've seen movies that are canon pull background material out of non-canon sources.

I've also found that most behind the scenes and biographies/autobiographies to show the authors in the best possible light.

So, while the books may be a good read(and Emily seems to think most Who novels aren't) don't look at them as canon--you'll end up looking as silly as Dodo's brain maggots(or worse).

For practical purposes, large chunks of the TV series have effectively been decononised. The chances of them ever explicitly referring to the events of 'Underwater Menace' are minimal, nor would they hesitate to contradict it.

For practical purposes, canon is everything broadcast in the last few years, and an handful of key earlier events. Everything else is so much compost - it might get reused, but most of it is just going to rot, unmourned,

However, while such a narrow canon may be practical, it isn't fun. Treating the books as secondary canon, apocrypha, makes nitpicking much more entertaining.

For the precise point is question, the TV series gave us very little indication of how Gallifreyan society worked. A fad for venerating Eternals doesn't contradict anything we saw, and is consistent with the general atmosphere - bored aristocrats looking for a way to fill the endless hours have played at religion often enough. It's a nice bit of colour, and no more, but unless we get an episode set on pre-Time War Gallifrey (not exactly likely) it remains a viable theory.

you'll end up looking as silly as Dodo's brain maggots

Dodo had brain maggots? Glad I missed that one.

As I see it, all the books are canon unless explicitly contradicted, and even then, they did happen before the Time War made them unhappen.

I might go with that, were it not for the unfortunate existence of one Mick Lewis.

What about the audios?

You may be underestimating their arrogance. To the average Time Lord, 10,000 galaxies ground beneath the heel of a tyrant is infinitely less important than deciding if their collar should be 2mm higher. As with cats, anything that doesn't affect them personally is supremely unimportant.

But unlike cats, the Time Lords are all (well, often) grovelling sycophants at heart. Even our Doctor is never happier than when he's bowing and scraping in front of some pathetic human/Draconian monarch or other, and as for the Castellan in Invasion of Time...

All sources must be considered canon by the series' creators. RTD is a creator (among many others).

RTG wrote an NA Himself, so surely He considered them canon at SOME point?

Once the cameras started rolling on Rose, out the books went.

There are only two Guardians, Romana remains in E-Space

Actually Romana MUST have come back from E-Space (if not to become President (NAs) and/or War Queen and Mistress of the Nine Gallifreys (EDAs) - Rassilon just wouldn't have stood for it) or SURELY it would have occurred to the Doctor to GO FIND HER by now...?

And he's said we're free to count the books or not, as we please.

Ah, has He? Bless!

I've been reading novels/adaptations and tech books since before Emily(who not long ago was gripping about how old she is) was born-and I have yet to find even one that stands the test of time to become canon.

Human Nature?

For practical purposes, large chunks of the TV series have effectively been decononised. The chances of them ever explicitly referring to the events of 'Underwater Menace' are minimal

Ya wanna bet?

These people had MACRA, for god's sake.

nor would they hesitate to contradict it.

Oh, they'd hesitate. They are, after all, True Fans, just like us only more, well, clever. Successful. Imaginative. They care about canon. And sure, once they'd hesitated they'd've put the needs of the story above the needs of a few fanatics who knew what was in some destroyed 60s black-and-white episode. But they'd then almost certainly think of a delightful fanish excuse for why that particular piece of history had been overwritten. And talk about it in DWM.

Everything else is so much compost - it might get reused, but most of it is just going to rot, unmourned,

Is NOT rotting! Is delightful and cherished Old Who!

However, while such a narrow canon may be practical, it isn't fun. Treating the books as secondary canon, apocrypha, makes nitpicking much more entertaining.

Actually it makes it a bit too easy - like shooting fish in a barrel...

A fad for venerating Eternals doesn't contradict anything we saw

Other than the Time Lords' habit of treating Rassilon like their one and only God.

and is consistent with the general atmosphere - bored aristocrats looking for a way to fill the endless hours have played at religion often enough.

Actually half The Ancestor Cell was about bored young aristocrats playing with the Faction's blood-soaked 'religion' and it PROVED that this sort of thing just doesn't WORK on Gallifrey. It SHOULD be consistent with the general atmosphere but for some reason I just can't articulate (hmm...must dig up Lawrence's Ancestor Cell reaction) it's just totally WRONG.

It's a nice bit of colour, and no more, but unless we get an episode set on pre-Time War Gallifrey (not exactly likely) it remains a viable theory.

Fiftieth anniversary coming up, people! Who's voting for ONE of the Specials Moffat's hinting at to be all about pre-Time War AND Time War Gallifrey? DOUBLE the McGann era in one fell swoop!

Dodo had brain maggots? Glad I missed that one.

Daniel O'Mahony swears that everyone who's ever read Man in the Velvet Mask completely misinterpreted the book and the universal belief that Dodo acquired a sexually-transmitted disease involving brain-eating maggots is not precisely the case.

It's a Tavern tradition to provoke him into yelling 'I didn't give Dodo an STD!' when there are Not We within earshot...

What about the audios?

Never seen or heard them, but they can be used to fill in any gaps.

Ya wanna bet? These people had MACRA, for god's sake.

To explain away the Doctor's apparent genocide. Did the Doctor do anything embarrassing in Underwater Menace?

Is NOT rotting! Is delightful and cherished Old Who!

By us, but are we typical? The average Who fan these days has never heard of the Underwater Menace, or zarbi, and probably thinks RTG invented the Macra.

Actually it makes it a bit too easy - like shooting fish in a barrel...

Depends. If you're looking for inconsistencies, yes. If you're trying to explain them away, without creating worse problems, no.

Other than the Time Lords' habit of treating Rassilon like their one and only God.

Which is why I said fad. After all, in Three Doctors, they never mentioned Rassilon, only Omega.

[Ancestor cell] PROVED that this sort of thing just doesn't WORK on Gallifrey. It SHOULD be consistent with the general atmosphere

Ancestor Cell handled it poorly. That doesn't make the idea itself unworkable. If they weren't worshipping Eternals, I can imagine weird little cults venerating Rassilon and Omega in ways not publicly approved of.

But unlike cats, the Time Lords are all (well, often) grovelling sycophants at heart.

In which case, they should be happy to acknowledge the Guardians.

Basically, the Doctor could have learnt about the Guardians on Gallifrey, or by watching the threads that bind the universe. Slightly less likely, the Great Intelligence or Celestial Toymaker might have known something, without being Guardians themselves, and let it slip.

What about the audios?

Never seen or heard them, but they can be used to fill in any gaps.

Except when they announce the Eighth Doctor's spent 600 years playing with jellyfish, presumably. (Orbis.)

Did the Doctor do anything embarrassing in Underwater Menace?

Some nasty-minded people might suggest that merely APPEARING in Underwater Menace is embarrassment enough, but no, I absolutely maintain that sticking a scarf over his head, donning some dark glasses and playing the tamborine is the most adorable thing ANY of the first three Doctors EVER did.

By us, but are we typical? The average Who fan these days has never heard of the Underwater Menace, or zarbi, and probably thinks RTG invented the Macra.

In that case they aren't True Fans.

They just...aren't.

After all, in Three Doctors, they never mentioned Rassilon, only Omega.

How much of power-drained Time Lord society did we GET in Three Doctors? Five minutes? Ten? (Yes I KNOW it's way past time I rewatched. I just...don't want to.)

Ancestor Cell handled it poorly. That doesn't make the idea itself unworkable.

I just feel it does - religion and god-like beings shouldn't mix. I've dug out Lawrence's review and sadly he doesn't even bother to explain how wrong it is cos it just IS:

'The Gallifreyan sequences open with a clique of bored rich kids dabbling in the black arts, and it's impossible to adequately describe the crushing *wrongness* of all this as a plot device.'

If they weren't worshipping Eternals, I can imagine weird little cults venerating Rassilon and Omega in ways not publicly approved of.

Now THAT I can picture. But not the Eternals, for some reason. (Said reason almost certainly being that the Tegan-loving boat-obsessed Eternals were even MORE pathetic than the Time Lords.)

But unlike cats, the Time Lords are all (well, often) grovelling sycophants at heart.

In which case, they should be happy to acknowledge the Guardians.

If a Guardian was standing in front of them, absolutely - and they wouldn't stop to check whether it was Black or White before they fell on their faces and started selling their friends to it.

But I can't see why such characterless, non-local boys would get a proper cult going when the Time Lords had REAL strong, complex, genocidal characters like Rassilon and Omega in their history.

Except when they announce the Eighth Doctor's spent 600 years playing with jellyfish, presumably.

Of course.

In that case they aren't True Fans.

But they are the vast majority of the TV audience.

But I can't see why such characterless, non-local boys would get a proper cult going when the Time Lords had REAL strong, complex, genocidal characters like Rassilon and Omega in their history.

The Black Guardian has an impressive laugh and, unlike Rassilon, he might actually do something for his worshippers. That would put smart Time Lords off, of course - even the Master never tried dealing with the Black Guardian - but the lesser lights might try using a Black Guardian cult as a short cut to power.

However, the most likely reason for Time Lords to end up respecting the Guardians would be if Rassilon mentioned them in his hypothetical memoirs. A boasting sentence about how 'the twin Guardians of the universe bowed down before me, and crowned me Supreme Lord of Time' would be enough, even if it was completely untrue. If Rassilon thinks they're important enough to mention, they must be worthy of respect, so the lgoic would go.

In that case they aren't True Fans.

But they are the vast majority of the TV audience.

Exactly what I said! Not True Fans! *Shudders* Casual Viewers!!!

The Black Guardian has an impressive laugh and, unlike Rassilon, he might actually do something for his worshippers. That would put smart Time Lords off, of course - even the Master never tried dealing with the Black Guardian - but the lesser lights might try using a Black Guardian cult as a short cut to power.

OK, it WAS a great laugh. And I just LOVE the bird.

However, the most likely reason for Time Lords to end up respecting the Guardians would be if Rassilon mentioned them in his hypothetical memoirs. A boasting sentence about how 'the twin Guardians of the universe bowed down before me, and crowned me Supreme Lord of Time' would be enough, even if it was completely untrue.

If THE DOCTOR is denying the Guardians' existence to the extent that he's screaming 'I'm the ultimate authority and if you want a higher one, THERE ISN'T ONE!!!' to some adorable oochies, how likely is RASSILON to acknowledge the Guardians? (Yeah, I KNOW RTG claimed in an annual that they'd fled the universe during the Time War or something. It was a bloody ANNUAL, how can I take it too seriously? Plus, RTG LIES. Come to think of it, four years of working under HIM probably gave Moffat the inspiration for his 'The Doctor LIES' motif.)

how likely is RASSILON to acknowledge the Guardians?

He wouldn't admit they were more powerful than him. However, claiming that even beings that powerful recognised him as a greater power than themselves makes him seem even more powerful, to the Time Lords who believe him.

However, claiming that even beings that powerful recognised him as a greater power than themselves makes him seem even more powerful, to the Time Lords who believe him.

The risk in doing that is if said beings hear about the claim, are not amused by it and decide to come and cut down the arrogant git by a notch or two.

Yeah, they might seal him in a tomb in the Dead Zone. ;-)

DWM: 'They were keen to show that the White Guardian was as bad as the Black Guardian, effectively being two sides of one entity' - so, er, why have the Doctor so convinced that the WHITE Guardian would NEVER show a callous disregard for ONE SINGLE human(ish) life...?

The Black Guardian seems to have changed his outfit, and is now calling himself the Trickster, which only leaves the White Guardian unaccounted for.

DWM review of SJA Season 5: 'I'm fairly certain the Captain is actually the White Guardian in a new guise, one that represents the ultimate expression of his love for the aviary. As for his once black-clad counterpart, he's now styling himself as the Trickster. Oh, it all makes sense, and I challenge you to prove me wrong, you whimpering wraiths!'

Though to be frank I find it hard to imagine the White Guardian running an adoption agency.

'The imperturbable face could have been blasted out of solid rock; the ermine-lined robes were glossy and seemed to contain in their folds every dark thought the universe had ever contained; the headdress was mounted by a raven whose eyes were narrowed in pure, piercing hatred' - The Well-Mannered War MA. Nice try, but...

From Original Series: Season Sixteen: The Armageddon Factor:

ME: whose voice and appearance did he use when pretending to be the WHITE Guardian?

KATE: His own. His "normal" appearance is just his White Guardian disguise with a video effect over it.

For heaven's sake. Is the Guardian of Darkness really incapable of altering his own face? If so, could he not have purchased a rubber mask from the Master? Or is he just keeping his fingers crossed that the Doctor suffers from prosopagnosia?

And what about the VOICE!

Nick Briggs: 'I always thought the randomiser was such a strange idea..."This thing means I don't know where I'm going, and that means you don't know where I'm going." Surely [the Black Guardian] could just watch the TARDIS...It's like being in a helicopter, looking down at someone lost in a car - the person driving the car is lost, but you can still see where they're going' - hmm. Fair point.

Struck me as odd for the same reason, plus the fact that the TARDIS seldom went where it was supposed to anyway. Then there's the issue of what, Sexy is supposedly not taking the Doctor where he needs to be, and yet their first destination is Skaro at the moment of Davros' resurrection? Then Paris just before Scaroth has the means to go back and prevent humanity from developing? That does not sound remotely random to me.

Yeah, they didn't really think through the whole 'Randomiser' thing, did they...And it's not as if anyone would have wondered why the Black Guardian didn't seek immediate revenge - OBVIOUSLY he'd have a completely different perspective on 'time' than us mere mortals.

Also, the Black Guardian is the embodiment of chaos as well as evil, so he should be great with randomness.

I keep forgetting about the 'chaos' thing, it was never exactly explored.

Mind you, it's not like the 'evil' stuff got an in-depth examination, but at least you had the Black Guardian emit the occasional Evil Chuckle followed by cries of 'In the name of all that is evil!' and suchlike.

With true randomness, the chances of materializing on any planet/moon/ship/space station would be astronomical.

I suppose it depends on how you set up the randomiser.

Presumably the TARDIS has a set of coordinates in time and space where it could theoretically land that would be safe, so if the randomiser randomly picked one of those locations it would still be a random choice & avoid the problems of materializng in deep space, the middle of a planet, the interior of a star, etc., etc.

the Black Guardian is the embodiment of chaos as well as evil

Funny how people want to identify chaos as evil & order as good, but if you think of society with complete order (or trying hard to achieve it) at the very least you get a police state and at the worst... well, the Nazis or similar dictatorships.

On the other hand chaotic things happening can spur on evolution, and scientific discoveries, and art...

Ah, that argument about 'in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.'

You mean the Black Guardian might have wanted to set the two sides of the universe at war for OUR OWN GOOD?

Actually I was commenting on how writers of various series (not just Who) keep using the chaotic = evil & order = good, but too much of either is a bad thing & that good things can be found in either.

I was trying to say the writers were short-sighted and not thinking this conclusion through.

Heck, the Doctor himself can be rather chaotic & that's how he sometimes trips up the bad guys.

Chaos can give rise to remarkably beautiful things.

Whoa... H.P. Lovecraft vision...

I was trying to say the writers were short-sighted and not thinking this conclusion through.

Agreed. And it's not like Armageddon Factor didn't have PLENTY OF SPARE TIME in which such questions COULD have been explored...just cut out a few hours of that pilot reaching for the button...and reaching for the button...and reaching for the button...

What the hell is fractal recursion?!

Funny how people want to identify chaos as evil & order as good, but if you think of society with complete order (or trying hard to achieve it) at the very least you get a police state and at the worst... well, the Nazis or similar dictatorships.

Even though it's been twenty years since 'Christmas on a Rational Planet' made that dubious connection?

Plus, as another Who writer put it (in a non-Who work): "Chaos and order? I thought everyone had heard of fractals these days."

What the hell is fractal recursion?!

It's a process through which one draws a shape by repeating a given operation over and over. This image illustrates a very simple example. Here, the operation being carried out is to divide a line in three equal parts, build an equilateral triangle on the middle segment and remove that segment. Doing this over and over results in a very complex shape.

I was commenting on how writers of various series (not just Who) keep using the chaotic = evil & order = good,

It's a natural conclusion if you're Christian. God is good, and the supreme law-giver, so law and good get linked.

However, not everyone does it. Some people use a 2-dimensional systems, originating in rpgs, where good-evil and law-chaos are independent axis, and all combinations occur: lawful good, chaotic neutral, neutral evil, etc.

TV tropes has a decent enough overview: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterAlignment

Under such a system, the Doctor would be chaotic good, the Black Guardian would be chaotic evil, cybermen would be lawful evil, and the White Guardian would be lawful good.

it's been twenty years since 'Christmas on a Rational Planet' made that dubious connection

I'm not rewarding myself with a reread until I've ploughed through AT LEAST another five considerably-less-brilliant NAs...

Plus, as another Who writer put it (in a non-Who work): "Chaos and order? I thought everyone had heard of fractals these days."

S/he (probably he) was sore mistaken...

...Well, OK, so I've heard of them NOW...

It's a process through which one draws a shape by repeating a given operation over and over. This image illustrates a very simple example. Here, the operation being carried out is to divide a line in three equal parts, build an equilateral triangle on the middle segment and remove that segment. Doing this over and over results in a very complex shape.

But I don't see why this is CHAOS, it all sounds terribly (and pointlessly) ordered.

It's a natural conclusion if you're Christian. God is good, and the supreme law-giver, so law and good get linked.

But he created an insanely chaotic universe (alright, the whole 'six days' thing is SOME mitigation) AND his laws were utterly contradictory (I mean, one minute you're SUPPOSED to marry your brother's wife and the next...honestly, I'm gonna end up as confused as Henry VIII if my brother ever drops dead).

Under such a system, the Doctor would be chaotic good, the Black Guardian would be chaotic evil, cybermen would be lawful evil, and the White Guardian would be lawful good.

VERY interesting.

We might FINALLY have an explanation for why the sonuvadalek overthrows the existing regime and then ALWAYS* swans off without saying a SINGLE WORD that might have saved the resultant regime from falling straight back into dictatorship...

*Give or take that excruciatingly embarrassing 'Make the basis of your society a man who never would...' speech.

But I don't see why this is CHAOS, it all sounds terribly (and pointlessly) ordered.

Because it leads to unpredictablity. Shapes like that are useful because they let you fit a lot more surface area round a given volume, as with your lungs and blood vessels - useful, because all the work has to be done near the surface.

Anyway, a fractal boundary between good and evil means we can have islands of good inside islands of evil inside islands of good inside islands of evil inside islands of good inside islands of evil inside islands of good inside islands of evil and so on for another 50 recursions (or 50 million if you really enjoy recursion), which some find massively more interesting than a smooth clear line between good and evil, and not just because it can confuse the audience. They actually have the temerity to think such a situation might confuse the Doctor, leaving him uncertain where the boundary is for more than two nanoseconds.

(or 50 million if you really enjoy recursion)

No one enjoys recursion.

Except Christopher H. I Bloody Love Recursion Bidmead, obviously.

I think Nyssa should have been the one in the web. Thanks a lot, CHB.

The Pirate Planet novel suggests that it was really the Black Guardian that sent the Doctor to gather up the pieces of the Key To Time.

Also, in that novel, the BG appears to Queen Xanxia, inside the Time Dam, and starts talking to her (she is confused how anyone could appear to her in that state, of course, the Time Dams would not stop the BG).

As I have said, it seemed that the BG and Xanxia were chatting throughout the story. The Doctor and Kimus noted that old Xanxia seemed to be talking to someone she couldn't see.

Xanxia, in nurse form, thought about this voice inside her head (but didn't know where it came from). Did the BG nudge Xanxia to grab Calufrax, knowing it was the Second Segment?

And in the Stones Of Blood, Cessair of Diplos, alias Vivien Fay, seemed to know how to work the Great Seal Of Diplos, which was the Third Segment. Did the BG nudge Cessair into nicking it in the first place? Or was she a willing ally of the BG, like the Shadow was?

Of course, in both cases, it seemed that the BG knew, ahead of time, that the Doctor would win the day and get the segments.

As the Pirate Planet novel says, why go traipsing all though time and space yourself, looking for the segments, when you can dupe the Doctor into doing it for you.

As the Pirate Planet novel says, why go traipsing all though time and space yourself, looking for the segments, when you can dupe the Doctor into doing it for you.

Er...because the Doctor might not be particularly willing to hand over ultimate power to the BLACK GUARDIAN when he's assembled it...?

Hence the BG disguising himself as the White Guardian.

He PUT ON A WHITE HAT! As disguises go, that's not exactly putting in much EFFORT is it, he didn't even bother to change his FACE for heaven's sake, the Doctor saw through him right away, as you'd bloody well EXPECT of anyone with the intelligence to assemble the Key to Time in the first place. (Plus, if they'd gone on chatting for another thirty seconds, I bet he'd've let slip worse giveaways than not giving a toss about Astra, he was always 'In the name of all that is evil!'-ing in front of poor Turlough.)

My article in which I speculate about Xanxia and Cessiar's connection to the BG:


http://www.pagefillers.com/dwrg/articles6.htm#16

Interesting but not convincing. It'll be a cold day in hell before I feel sorry for Xanxia, also I REALLY DON'T LIKE reducing some of Old Who's pitifully few female villains to PAWNS.

On the other hand, I HAVE always wondered what the Doc would have done if he'd come across a normal-sized, flourishing, inhabited Callufrax...

Yes, but a case can be made for both being such pawns, as my article points out.

Cessair, for example. She seemed to understand the powers the third segment had. Now, did she figure that out all by herself, or did the BG help her? Since the episode is completely silent on the matter, one can assume either scenario.

I picked the BG option. Yes, you could argue that there is no evidence to support that, but, on the other hand, there is no evidence that says that the BG is not involved.

It's entirely up to the viewer to decide.

Yeah, I KNOW RTG claimed in an annual that they'd fled the universe during the Time War or something. It was a bloody ANNUAL, how can I take it too seriously? Plus, RTG LIES.

'I'm the last of the Guardians. My kind took refuge when this perpetual pettiness escalated...in a realm you'll never comprehend' - admittedly an Unbound audio (Doctor of War: Destiny) doesn't have much more authority than an Annual...especially when it backs up Quantum Archangel's ludicrous assertion of more than two Guardians...

Yeah, I KNOW RTG claimed in an annual that they'd fled the universe during the Time War or something. It was a bloody ANNUAL, how can I take it too seriously? Plus, RTG LIES.

*Sigh*

And RTG also changes His mind...

Toymaker in The Giggle: 'I've played against the Guardians of Time and Space and shrank them into voodoo dolls.'

RIP guy-with-bird-on-his-head...unless RTG's lying AGAIN...