Moderator's Note: This is Mike's original Valeyard summary:

I'm one of the Who fans that wishes the Valeyard would go away. The whole story line destroys the history of Who. If you consider that the Doctor has never deliberately changed history, there is nothing he can do to prevent this future from occurring. And why would the High Council condone using this goon as their agent? Are they nuts?


Will someone please explain to me this Valeyard thing? If he's the doctor in his last incarnation and he's evil, then doesn't that make the doctor evil? Or is he a'possible' doctor of the future? knowing that he is the Valeyard can the doctor not become him?...and isn't it against time lord law for both of them to be in the same place. AAARGHH...time travel makes my teeth ache.

OK. Here is a theory. The Paul McGann movie happned in a parallel universe (let's say the one where the Doctor was Merlin.) After he leaves Grace Holloway, the Doctor gradually becomes more and more embittered about the fact she never came with him. Eventually he goes so crazy that he turns into the Valeyard.

<grins>
2 birds with one stone!

It's indicated the Valeyard is the Doctor between his 12th and final incarnation and is a distillation of his evil side.
Note this implies the Doctor lives on beyond his 13th life.
Remember the Watcher? Or that Cho-je was a projection of K'Anpo? And how many doubles/duplicates of the Doctor have there been over the years? One could quite possible go rogue and become rather nasty. Or maybe it's another intriguing story future writers will develop, a devilish plot of some maniac.
Or then again, the Doctor has said "free will is not an illusion after all". So maybe his actions prevent the Valeyard coming into being (I know he was still there at the end but it's Doctor 7 or 8 who've fixed things up and - whoosh - the Valeyard no longer exists).

The novelization of "The Ultimate Foe" explains the Valeyard a bit. The Doctor has a moment of clarity when he thinks backs to all the times he's been callous, self-centered, etc., and he sees them all contained and compressed in the Valeyard.

It may be a side-effect of the the Time Lord's regenerations. Look at the Master--it's implied he's in his last incarnation, and he's extremely evil. Or Borusa--his earlier incarnation's was okay fellows, but his final one in "The Five Doctors" was just as bad as the Master.

I think the Valeyard was also referred to as the Doctor's *possible* last incarnation. He could be the Doctor from the alternate universe shown in "Inferno" (or, here's a stretch, the Star Trek "Mirror, Mirror" universe, where the good guys were evil).

What always got me is that is the Valeyard is a future Doctor why does he want Doctor 6 to forego his remaining regenerations - wouldn't that endanger the Valeyard's very own existence?

Moderator's Note: Emily's response, from the Trial of a Time Lord thread:

The New Adventures imply that the Valeyard was a possible future Doctor - and one which the Seventh Doctor somehow killed his predecesor to prevent, since of them all the Sixth Doctor was the most likely to become the Valeyard. (Well, it's as good an explanation as any for him banging his head on the TARDIS console). The upshot was that #6 became the Valeyard BECAUSE he'd been bumped off by his future self (I'm not sure whether it would be suicide, murder, parriside or fratriside). See Paul Cornell's 'Love and War' or Steve Lyons' 'Head Games' for a slightly less confused explanation of all this.

The impression I got was that the Valeyard was an artificially produced Time Lord that used the Doctor's bio-extract but only the evil parts of his personality. That's what I thought the Master meant when he said,"The Valeyard is an emalgamation of the dark side of [the Doctor's]nature." In other words, he's an evil clone.

An amalgamation means a collection, not an artificial life form. I understand that you're implying the Time Lords created the Valeyard, but there's no indication that this occured.

It seems more likely he's a future incarnation (possibly the last regeneration) of the Doctor from an alternate time line. He's a possibility, not an absolute certainty.

I think either theory would solve the paradox of the Doctor wanting to go back in time and kill himself from the past.
Although I haven't viewed the episode in a while, I don't think there's any indication from the dialog of either theory.
However, I have talked to several other Doctor Who fans who came to the same conclusion I did without any prodding from me.
By the way, I know emalgamation means a collection. I (and some others) just assumed the Master meant that the Timelords had somehow collected the evil parts of all the past and future Doctors and somehow distilled them into the being known as the Valeyard. (It's as good an explanation as any.) How and why the did this would make a great story should they decide to revive the series. Anyone else agree?

If you consider that the Doctor has never deliberately changed history, there is nothing he can do to prevent this future from occurring. And why would the High Council condone using this goon as their agent? Are they nuts?

Yes. The High Council are undoubtedly nuts. And riddled with traitors too, judging by past experience.

Since when has the Doctor never deliberately changed history? What about that ship in Carnival of Monsters?

I always thought he was restoring it to his correct state. The Timescopes capture of the Earth people et al was clearly against the so-called "Laws" of time, so restoring them put time back on its original course.

Of course, there's no guarantee that the ship didn't promptly run into a storm back on Earth and sink, leaving time relatively unchanged.

Timescopes were (thanks to the Doctor) against ordinary laws, but I don't think using them to kidnap people was against the Laws of Time any more than the Doctor kidnapping Ian and Barbara was - the actions just become part of the Web of Time. The Doctor remembers hearing about that ship disappearing in a Marie Celeste style mystery. Now that ship didn't disappear (unless that oh-so-convenient storm blows up).

Anyway, forget the ship - what about the Doctor putting the daleks' development back by 1000 years in Genesis? Or pursuading that blue monster in Fenric to prevent the heamovour future that should have happened?

Touche`. The Time Lords sent the Doctor back to fight the Daleks, but he took it upon himself to change the Haemovore future. The future of the Earth has been monkeyed with so many times now, I have to wonder how many of early Who stories still take place.

I guess the difference between the Doctor's "kidnapping" B&I and the Timescopes victims is that B&I were free to leave at any time. People in the Timescope were trapped, and trapped in a small segment of their own existance.

The Doctor had said he campaigned to have Timescoops banned. I don't know if this is like an ammendment to the constitution, or a local ordinace. The fact that the Time Lords didn't go back and prevent Timescoops from ever being developed suggests they didn't view them as a threat, merely a nuisance.

I'd have thought that B&I being free to mess around with their own history - and that of other worlds - would do more harm to the Web of Time than a few people being stuck in a Scope.

Wasn't the sixth-to-seventh regeneration an attempt to prevent the Valeyard by killing the Doctor most likely to become him? At least, that was McCoy's excuse. Not that he needed one to dispose of Colin Baker.

It's just occurred to me...shouldn't the Valeyard be in the 'Doctor' section? Theoretically, I mean. I'm not for a moment suggesting that he gets transferred - my Hero's section has already been contaminated enough by the presence of Peter Cushing.

I never thought of it that way. I guess I was subconsciously resisting the idea that the Valeyard was the Doctor. I've always hated stories when the hero turned bad. That happens enough in real life; I don't need it in the Whoniverse.

Just how much effect could Barbara and Ian have on the future? Barbara had it proved to her, in "The Aztecs", that she couldn't change the future. In the giant scheme of things, maybe the future we known was only able to occur BECAUSE B&I went back to 1966 London. Their actions were always responsible for the future.

Or else the bus they were riding at the end of "The Chase" crashed, killing them.

How can you say that! Ian and Barbara survive their bus journey, marry, have a son and live happily ever after. Go and read Face of the Enemy.

I disagree that the Aztecs 'proved' anything. Basically, the Doctor was scared for his own miserable skin, and wanted to stop Barbara making the Aztecs suspicious. The fact that she failed was not due to fixed timelines, but to the fact that she was one person fighting an entire culture.

If history couldn't be changed, why did the Doctor refuse to rescue Anne Chappelet from 16th century France? And why didn't he just leave the Meddling Monk to meddle away, content in the knowledge that history would defeat him?

What was so special about pre-1960s Earth that its history was inviolable, whilst the history of other worlds, not to mention the post-60s, was not?

Anyway, Sutekh would certainly have changed 'fixed' history if the Doctor had left him to it.

People have free will - the Doctor says so himself (well, admittedly the quote (in Eternity Weeps) is something like 'Everyone has free will - predestination wouldn't work otherwise). Of course, sometimes a time traveller would be trapped in their own cycle of history - as with the guerrillas in Day of the Daleks - but I believe that if, with their future knowledge, Ian and Barbara had had the guts to shoot Pol Pot, the bullet wouldn't have been magically deflected (though I suppose Time's Champion might have turned up...)

I couldn't agree more about the Valeyard. Surely by now some fan has come up with a mad convoluted theory to explain that he's not REALLY the Doctor - if not, I'm relying on you, Mike.

I was thinking about B&I's affect on Earth's future while I was driving into work. First off, the only stories that took place in Earth's future and involved B&I were "The Dalek Invasion of Earth" and "The Chase." I am making the assumption for this arguement that the Doctor did not give B&I free access to other information on post 1960's Earth, so the only knowledge of Earth's future would be from these two episodes (plus little bits from "The Rescue", "The Sensorites", and watching the Beatles on the Time Visualizer).

Just how much difference could they make with the information they've learned? They know there'll be a World's Fair in Ghana in 1999, an alien invasion 500 years in the future, and that Earthpeople will travel to other planets in the future. They don't know the specific events or people that will cause this to happen, so how can they affect.

Ben and Polly, on the other hand, could wreak havoc on the future. They know the time, place, and people involved in Cyberinvasion of "The Tenth Planet." Assuming they're about 22 when they return to Earth, they'll only be in their 40's when the Cybermen return. That's plenty of time to tell the government (not that it'll be easy to convince anyone).

But both Ian and Barbara are teachers, with a healthy dose of curiosity (look at the way they spied on their pupil). The Doctor probably had the sense to keep his mouth shut, but I bet they sat Vicki down for a nice cosy chat and she spilled the beans.

I certainly don't see Ben and Polly getting anywhere - I wouldn't trust those two to do more than make coffee, never mind persuade a Government that they'd travelled around time and space in a blue box, etc etc. Though if they approached those VIPs who witnessed the Doctor in action in The War Machines, they'd get a hearing at least.

But my original point about the dangers of the Doctor's companions was not what they'd do when they got home so much as what they'd do travelling the universe. How did Barbara know when she smashed up those brains that she wasn't messing with future history books that said the brains had ruled for another thousand years? How did Ian know, as he killed his way through Crusaders, cavemen, French Revolutionaries etc that he wasn't killing the ancestors of people who should have been born?

That was kind of the point I was trying to make in an earlier post. They couldn't change the future because it always happened that way. History is this way because of the effects of the Doctor and Co. Occasionally they will be in a position to see what would happen if they didn't act (Pyramids of Mars).

As you sort of pointed out, both Polly and Ben have access to high government officials who know of the Doctor. There's also the possibility that, if they make enough noise, B&P will come to the attention of UNIT, or roving reporter Sarah Jane Smith.

Is there a World Fair in Ghana this year, per chance?
Actually some of the points covered by Mike and Emily were covered in a two-part Doctor Who Magazine feature a few years back on how time travel works in Doctor Who and all the contradictions that have been thrown up over the years...

That would be by Steve Lyons and is actually rather good. Lyons and Howarth are my favorite non-fiction authors- after all they did produce the ever useful CUE

OK, time for me to wheel out the heavy artillery, i.e. the New Adventures. In 'SLEEPY', the Doctor and co land on the planet Yamaya a few weeks before history says it will be destroyed. But the Doctor just can't help saving the planet, and history is altered. This is referred to later in 'So Vile A Sin', where Roz orders some Yamayan cigarettes, as she distinctly remembers doing for years before she met the Doctor. But she knows the memory is false, because she can also remember that in her pre-Doctor days, Yamaya no longer existed.

I take this to mean that when time travellers alter history, everyone's memories get altered as well, without them even noticing (unless they're time travellers too). I think there's some discussion of this sort of thing in The Time Meddler.

And I've just found this scene in Interference: '"You can't rewrite history. Not one line"...Just something I once told a friend of mine. It's not true, of course. The lines are easy to change. It's making sure the grammar's consistent that's difficult.'

And then there's the Doctor's line in The Dying Days: 'I make history better.'

OT I know, but in the absence of an Interference board, what do you reckon so far?

Can somebody explain to me that if the Valeyard is a future Doctor, why he would want to (let alone could) kill his earlier, Sixth self? If this has all happened already to the Valeyard, many, many years ago when he was the Sixth Doctor, why should he try this whole ruse? If I went back to 1980 and tried to kill my 19-year old self, how could I exist in the present of 1999? This is what the Valeyard is doing, and I've never been able to wrap my brain around it.

He isn't a future Doctor. He is an amalgamation of all that is evil in the Doctor, the evilness taken from either his twelth or last incarnation. Basically, he is brought into being by someone out to get the Doctor (IIRC, The 8 Doctors has the CIA making him).

I thought he was a "distillation of all that is evil, somewhere between his 12th and final incarnation".

Whether or not it's an 'amalgamation' or 'distilation', I always took it as a future persona of the Doctor that went wrong, and as such, I hated the idea. To imagine that the kindly Second or Third Doctors turned their backs on everything they fought to make right, to become the Valeyard, just annoyed me to no end.
That said, I could find it easier to believe that the Valeyard is a warped clone, or humanoid brought into being by technological means, that tapped into the dark side of the Doctor's genetics and mind. Not too fond of the Doctor possessing such evil, but the technology that created the Valeyard could have enhanced those traits a thousandfold. How does that sound?

I have to say that to imagine that the kindly Second or Third Doctors turned their backs on everything they fought to make right, to become the Sixth Doctor, just annoyed me to no end.

I like your theory, but I mistrust it. It would mean the Valleyard had virtually nothing to do with the Doctor - a bit of a cop-out. The goody-goody Doctor did have a dark side to him, as his First, Sixth and Seventh incarnations made quite clear.

So you're saying that in your mind the Valeyard is a future Doctor, as Pip and Jane Baker seemed to envision?

That brings us back to the question,"Why would he want to go back in time and kill his earlier self?" Has he also become suicidal as well as evil?

Re: "To imagine that the kindly Second or Third Doctors turned their backs on everything they fought to make right, to become the Valeyard, just annoyed me to no end"... how do you know the Doctor actually makes the decision to become the Valeyard... maybe someone else is responsible entirely and he has no choice in the matter?
As for killing his earlier self, maybe the Valeyard actually has a hidden agenda?

Chris; I have no proof that the Doctor has no choice in the matter, so you've got a point there. Did you read the MA 'Millenial Rites', where the Sixth Doctor slowly transforms into the Valeyard, totally skipping the Seventh & Eighth personas?
Also, in 'Business Unusual' he tries to avoid ever meeting Mel, fearing that the Valeyard would be a part of his future, should he travel with her. What this has to do with the true nature of the Valeyard is anybody's guess.

CBC - yes, I certainly got the strong impression that the Valleyard is a future Doctor, but since the thought makes me sick I'm glad others have come up with plenty of alternative explanations, and I'm endeavouring to believe them.

Chris (Todaro): Wasn't there some nonsense about the Valleyard planning to 'steal' the Sixth Doctor's future incarnations - that he'd been promised them by the Time Lords? The High Council were probably planning to fake the Doctor's execution (a la Brain of Morbius/Arc of Infinity) and then the Valleyard would take over Colin Baker's body in a Master/Tremas style (though why he or anyone else would want it is a mystery) and control all the remaining regenerations. Or something.

Chris (Thomas): The Doctor doesn't have any choice in the matter when he's regenerating, even when someone else doesn't interfere. I can just see him regenerating into the Valleyard, mentally peering into the mirror and saying 'Oh my GOD I've turned into an evil maniac...well...actually, come to think of it [Smug smile, waggle of new eyebrows] I rather like being evil...'

True, Emily, but given the "distillation" that supposedly occurs I'm led to believe someone else maybe involved in bringing the Valeyard to being. Maybe the Watcher reappears but the Master's taken over his body or something?

Wouldn't that be the Master's ultimate revenge; brainwashing the Doctor into an evil counterpart? And who's to say that the Valeyard has always been evil? It's possible that *however* he became what we saw in Trial Of A TimeLord, he's been that way for about a month, and shortly thereafter is deprogrammed, and returned to his proper 12th (or whatever) persona. Ahh! That makes me feel better. Just a quirk. Just a temporary, short-term affliction, and not a life-long embracing of the Master's life style.

In the Deadly Assasin the Doctor recognized an old 'freind', the TV presenter (or 3dTV or whatever). This is after several regenerations of the Doctor and no telling how many with the presenter, if any. The Timelords seem to identify other Timelords even after changes in appearance. Maybe it is pheremones or some innate psychic ability.

So why did it take the Master to point out that the Valeyard is the Doctor?

Now for my explanations as to who the Valeyard is, since I can't accept that he is the Doctor, either. It ruined what was otherwise a fairly mediocre story with some good bits (I maybe in the minority but I like the last two episodes with its surreal atmosphere of the Matrix).

1. The Valeyard is really the Doctor's twin brother. He resented the Doctor's fame after his bro save the universe for the umpteenth time, while he, the Valeyard, stayed at home on boring old Gallifrey. He studied to be a lawyer so one day he can try the Doctor and expose him as the fraud he is. Then Valeyard can prove he really is the better man and deserves all those delightful female companions that he has been missing out on. He contacts the Master and they come up with the plan so he could be exposed as the last incarnation of the Doctor as a brilliant case of courtroom grandstanding. Unfortunately it backfired on him when people didn't seriously believe it. Not surprising really, as the Master, though brilliant and diabolical, has always had a problem coming through on his evil plans.

2. The Valeyard never existed. The whole story never existed. It was a dream while the Doctor regenerated from 6 to 7.

My apologies to those who read the novels. I have not, and probably will not, read them (except maybe Lungbarrow which seems intriguing from what Emily has said about it). So what I see on TV or video is my only source of information.

Probably because the Valeyard isn't quite a Time Lord any more (mind you, neither is the Master, given all those alien bodies he has hijacked).
Well, I'm in the minority with you Luiner - I consider ep 13 to be the most watchable Colin Baker episode.
Assuming the Master isn't lying, the Valeyard *is* the Doctor, which puts paid to your first point. Point 2 is possible but, really, haven't we all had enough of "it was all a dream" storylines (I'm referring to fiction in general here)?
Actually, didn't the Doctor say about the Master in The Deadly Assassin: "In many ways, we have the same mind" ? Interesting, given some of the theories above.

Well, if a twin, he is genetically the same as the Doctor, so the Master technically isn't lying, at least in the biological sense. As far as it being all a dream, agreed, way too overused in fiction, especially in television. It always used to bug me when I get involved with the characters then find out it never happened. One reason I hated the movie Boxing Helena. Come to think of it there were a lot reasons I hated that one but it was the main one.
But, I can't believe the Valeyard is the Doctor in any form except in a strictly biological sense. So it's only a dream plot would be an acceptable if not noble way out of it.

So how about:
3. The Valeyard is the Doctor but from a parallel universe where everything is opposite. A universe where the Daleks, the Cybermen, and the Master are the forces of good. Where humans and Silurians live in perfect harmony. The Master goes around hatching plots to increase the liberty, equality, and fraternity (and sorority) in the universe. Where Daleks go around preaching democracy and anti slavery and say LIBERATE! instead of EXTERMINATE!. And Cybermen go around healing people with their cybernetic implants. The Doctor (aka the Valeyard) is sneaking around in his Tardis, kidnapping women, and a few guys, to become his 'companions' while he trys to undermine the peaceful races. He has tried to stop the Dalek freedom fighters from ever existing , but Che Davros stopped him in time. He stayed in Britain where with the help of the fascist Brigadier Leftbridge Stewart he has foiled numerous attempts by alien forces from liberating the downtrodden masses of the UK, as well as the rest of world.
After failing in his plots to conquer the universe the Doctor (aka Valeyard) crosses into our universe and hatches a plot to discredit our Doctor so he can take his remaining regenerations and continue his devilish plans in this universe where it is much easier to find allies. The Master sensing that somebody is encroaching on his turf exposes the Valeyard and the rest is history.

Interestingly, the original plot of Chris Bulis' State of Change involved a duplicate Doctor and Peri. The Peri double would have died but the Doctor double would have survived and gone rogue to become the Valeyard in the future.

"He's a Timelord; in many ways we have the same mind" is from Logopolis I believe.

Oops! Well I knew it was a Fourth Doctor Master story so I had a one in three chance of getting it right.

Why do you think Virgin and BBC Books put a ban on authors using the Valeyard?

I can only assume that they realised what every fan has always known - he's a really, REALLY bad idea (don't ask me why this basic fact escaped the makers of ToaTL). But the ban obviously wasn't enforced very well - the Valeyard pops up in Millennial Rites and Head Games.

I can only assume that they realised what every fan has always known - he's a really, REALLY bad idea (don't ask me why this basic fact escaped the makers of ToaTL). But the ban obviously wasn't enforced very well - the Valeyard pops up in Millennial Rites and Head Games.

Does he? In what capacity?

Well, in Millennial Rites London turned into some kind of magical kingdom, and everyone got transformed, including the Doctor who gradually turned into the Valeyard. It's a long time since I read Head Games, but I remember him popping up, I think he and the Doctor had a fight...this probably all took place in the Doctor's subconscious or something.

Possible reason for the Valeyard wanting to kill the Doctor: he is Grandfather Paradox.
Think about it, the Time Lords fear Grandfather Paradox being dead more than alive and the corrupt High Council used the Valeyard (who is yet to become Grandfather Paradox but has plans of such a nature, hence his wish to cause a paradox by killing his earlier self).
Grandfather Paradox comes from the House of Lungbarrow (like the Doctor) and bears the mark of the Time Lords on his arm, a small snake-like design, not unlike the Third Doctor's 'tattoo' (which he may have gained from the Time Lords, or more specifically, the Celestial Intervention Agency, prior to his exile).
I, personally, don't have a problem with the existence of the Valeyard, as it gives the Doctor a future he knows is possible and something that he must avoid. Something I did have a problem with though (concerning the Valeyard) was that he was too much of a comic book villain in 'Trial of a Time Lord' when he should have been more mysterious.

But Grandfather Paradox looked like the Eighth Doctor - or at least like the Eighth Doctor 'if he'd spent 20 years in the Marines before becoming a psycho' - whereas the Valeyard didn't.

I'm not counting Grandfather Paradox from 'Ancestor Cell' because it was suggested within the book itself that it may not have even been the real Grandfather, but instead a projection, which I prefer to believe (mostly because Miles disagrees with the Cole/Angehilides vision of who the Grandfather is anyway)

I'm not an obsessive fan,so forgive me for any inconsistnencies,but couldn't the Valeyard be a future incarnation of the Doctor from the parallel universe seen in "Inferno"??Just a thought.........

Possibly, but the dialogue in "Trial of a Time Lord" only says that the Valyard is a possible final incarnation.

the PDA "Matrix" shows that each Doctor had a point in his life where he could have made the wrong decision; each one of those points could lead the way to the Valyard.

I guess L. Miles idea of the Faction Paradox is one way to explain the possibility of the Valyard and the Doctor co-existing.

The Valeyard wants the Sixth Doctor's remaining regenerations, which doesn't make sense to me. If he kills the Sixth Doctor, how can he end up as the Valeyard who confronts him?
I have to agree that the Valeyard is some kind of alternate universe Doctor persona (much as it pains me), so killing the Sixth Doctor won't effect the Graveyard's, excuse me, the Valeyard's past timeline.
Isn't it like me going back to age 20 and threatening to kill the younger me? How could I be there, unless the attempt failed, or I'm in a universe other than my own?
And who's to say that the Master didn't drop into an alternate universe and bring the Railyard, uh, the Valeyard with him? The Doctor hasn't just travelled in our own universe, so why couldn't the Big V come from another neighbourhood?
It suits me much better than thinking the kindly Second and Fifth Doctors would wind up as such a nasty piece of business.

I think the problem with the Valeyard being the Doctor is that it means that the Doctor has no free will. The fact the Valeyard is there means the Doctor will become him. Saying that it is only a possible future doesn't change the fact that there he was, in the courtroom.

What I've come to conclude is that this whole thing was an incredibly fiendish hoax by the Master, just to justify a rather punnish joke. Plant enough evidence to start a trial. Uncover secrets of the Timelords. Somehow manage to become a star witness. And, somehow manage to bring somebody who thinks he is the Doctor's 13th persona to prosecute in the trial.

All to bring about a paradox.

And paradox sounds a lot like Pair Of Docs.

Ok, here's MY theory. The Valyard IS a distillation of all that is evil in the Doctor, and trust me, there's plenty there (the kidnapping of B&I, the attempted murder of Peri, all those deaths caused the Sontaran invasion of Gallifrey; the list goes on) I belive that at some point (there's actually a couple of contenders for this) the Doctor went through a process that "extracted" and then created the Valeyard. Such as the mind war with Morbius, the encounter with the mind of evil, etc. personally, I feel the Valeyard was created by Faction Paradox, you know, create the Doctor's greatest enemy in order to use both of them...

I tend to sgree, the Valeyard was a bad idea. But here's the thing that always got me. Who
says that the Valeyard is, in essence, a future
evil Doctor? The Master. And everyone accepts
it as truth, even the Doctor! Since when does
the Master tell the truth? Given what we know
of the Master, I would suspect lying is one of
his nicer qualities (after all, he's a murderer
innumerable times over, but that was kind of
glossed over in the series. Had to be, for "Family viewing".) So (though I am not
in favor of a "Return of the Valeyard" to explore
it in any form {book, audio, etc.}), it's very
possible that the Valeyard was not what the Master claimed he was , but actually someone or
something else. One of the novels put up the
interesting theory that the Sixth Doctor actually
committed suicide to try to keep from becoming
the Valeyard. I'm not sure I really buy that
theory, but I couldn't help but think of the
Master having a good laugh over the idea of coming up with a way to manipulate the Doctor
into killing one of his selves, and taunting him
with it one day.

Aloma--I should point out that, not only did the Valeyard not deny the Master's claim, he later on confirmed it to the Doctor. Watch the final episode of ToaTL carefully and you'll see.

Also, the Valeyard is only the potential final version of the Doctor. The future is still unwritten, so it's possible that the Doctor can do something to change it. Though, given how things play out in the 6th Doctor's EDAs/MAs, it seems unlikely.

I think what you were remembering about the 6th Doctor is that he claimed the 7th Doctor forced the regeneration. Had the 6th Doctor never died, the Valyard would never exist.

Why does everyone assume the Valeyard is a future Doctor??? IIRC the actual dialogue states that he is an AMALGAMATION of all the Doctor's evil up to somewhere between his 12th & 13th regeneration.

In other words he aint the Doctor he's just the nasty bits & pieces of the Doctor.

You know, the arrogance, the kidnapping schoolteachers, the let's bash in this caveman's head, etc., etc., without any of the good that makes the Doctor who he is.

I think the implication is that, over the course of all his regenerations, the Doctor's bad qualities increase, while his good one's decrease. Compare the behavior of the 6th and 7th Doctor to that of the 2nd and 3rd and you'll see.

Of course, this is all subjective.

Or it might mean that the Doctor had managed to regenerate every time into a pure and saintlike being...OK, I'm exaggerating...into someone with less than his fair share of evil, and somehow all the rejected bits of badness were gathered together and formed into the Valeyard...god, this is s t u p i d, I bet whatever idiot came up with the Valeyard idea didn't know what the hell they were doing, how are WE supposed to work it out?

Splitting people into their component 'good' & 'evil' halves is an old story idea. Comics have been doing it since at least the 1950's although I'm sure it's older than that.

The only stup¡d thing in doing it to the Doctor was why did the Time Lord who did it think he could control the Valeyard? Then again maybe someone was trying to isolate all the Doctor's good qualities and the Valeyard was a side effect who escaped into the past?

First it was The Master in Trial of A Time Lord
who said that the Valeyard was the amalgamation of the Doctor's Dark side between his 12th and
final Regeneration.Second he never said or implied that the Valeyard WAS a future incarnation of the Doctor.
Since it was the Master who said it it might be that he was more than lying a little to draw the
Doctor off and get him off balance so he WOULDN'T
catch on to what he,The Master,was actually up to.
Or alternatively the Valeyard might have been creatd at some future date by another,even more
corrupt High Council who wanted the Doctor out of the way.
To put it bluntly I do not believe the Valeyard to be the Doctor or that the Doctor becomes the
Valeyard.I believe the entire Valeyard affair to be a fiction created either by The MAster or some future corrupt HIgh COuncil.

What I wish was that JN-T had an interview where this was asked;

"Forget all this stuff about an amalgamation of evil, and distillation, and somewhere between the Doctor's 12th and 13th regeneration; bottom line...IS the Valeyard the Doctor?"

Then I'd want to know what the thinking was behind having an 'evil' Doctor. It's like making Superman the bad guy; it shouldn't be done. You can get away with it with Batman and Wolverine, because they've always walked the fine line to get things done, even at the expense of violent actions. But not the Doctor, he shouldn't be re-written to be a Master-wannabe.

It's been interesting hearing the fan opinions, but after nearly 20 years I'd like a definitive answer, one way or another.

Still, maybe the writers (was it Pip and Jane Baker?) might some day come clean and say once and for all who the Valeyard is.

Funny you should mention Superman; DC just released a short series featuring an evil Superman paired with an evil Batman. Time travellers from the 30th Century (Saturn Queen, Cosmic King, and Lightning Lord for you comic fans) killed Superman and Batman's parents and raised the duo to rule the Earth.

While I can't speak for J N-T, I would assume the reason for the Valyard was to point out that yes, anyone can become evil if they make decisions that compromise their own morality. The Doctor has certainly been guilty of questionable behavior in his past; he's been fortunate that it's all mostly worked out.

But not the Doctor, he shouldn't be re-written to be a Master-wannabe.

Hear hear. The Doc's already committed plenty of downright evil acts - genocide against the Macra springs to mind, as does a certain episode with a caveman, burning Rome, throwing people into - OK, OK, Daniel - making jokes after people accidentally happen to fall into acid baths, etc etc etc. There was absolutely no need to dress someone up in black, have him announce that 'Bwahaha! I'm evil!' and then claim he's THE DOCTOR of all people.

The Doctor has certainly been guilty of questionable behavior in his past; he's been fortunate that it's all mostly worked out.

Yes, he's been lucky (give or take his Sixth incarnation) but it wasn't just luck, it was a strong moral core (albeit one developed sometime during the Hartnell era cos he sure as hell didn't start off with it) that was (obviously!) totally missing from the Valeyard. Thus rendering him entirely unDoctorish and therefore pointless.

If they'd really wanted to develop the Doctor's bad side they could have just carried on with Colin Baker and pushed him over the edge into insanity sometime. (You know, the way people are always doing in Buffy and Angel.) God knows it wouldn't have taken much, and it might actually have been interesting to witness the Doctor's gradual corruption. He could then have topped himself into Sylvester McCoy as the ultimate expression of remorse.

So what impact does the Doctor's new-found 507-regeneration ability have on the Valeyard? Well, I suppose they claimed he was somewhere between the twelfth and final regeneration, they didn't say the final one had to be number Thirteen...

It appears that RTD has backpedaled a bit on the 507 regenerations. While he hasn't ruled it out entirely, he does make the point in this interview that the 13 lives wasn't set into stone until much later in the series (5th Doctor, if I'm not mistaken.

I suppose you could make a strong arguement that, with the destruction of Galifrey and all that, the physical laws governing Time Lords have been rewritten. Certainly it appears that the method of regeneration has changed; it's gone from a quiet crossfade to a giant laser/CGI light show.

It should also be pointed out that the Master has obviously gone past his 13 lives, and is on to at least #15 (not counting the body theft in "Keeper of Traken").

Link to interview:
http://www.sfx.co.uk/2010/10/26/interview-russell-t-davies-talks-about-that-sarah-jane-adventures-line/

the 13 lives wasn't set into stone until much later in the series (5th Doctor, if I'm not mistaken.

It's first established in Deadly Assassin.

Which makes that facelift line all the more confusing.

It appears that RTD has backpedaled a bit on the 507 regenerations.

I wouldn't say He's backpeddling, exactly. He just doesn't think it'll stick.

And of course He's absolutely right about some things sticking and some things not...though the one He ought to have been concentrating on is surely 'we live forever, barring accidents'...

I suppose you could make a strong arguement that, with the destruction of Galifrey and all that, the physical laws governing Time Lords have been rewritten.

Even before Gallifrey went boom, there's no way even the Time Lords would have been bloody stupid enough to resurrect the Master - who tried to destroy Gallifrey at least once - but send the Doctor out to fight on the front line without at least giving him a new regeneration cycle.

Certainly it appears that the method of regeneration has changed; it's gone from a quiet crossfade to a giant laser/CGI light show.

Well, it was drastically different every single time in the Good Old Days. From being part of some TARDIS process to having ex-Companions' heads whizzing around. Actually I'm quite disappointed that the Doc (and the Master) seems to have settled on a golden-light, standing-up thing EVERY TIME.

(God, can you BELIEVE we've had a new series for long enough to be bored with its lack of regeneration variety?)

Which makes that facelift line all the more confusing.

Runcible is not only fatuous, he must be Mr Thickety-Thick from Thicktown, Thickonia...

The 507 regenerations bit was supposed to be a throwaway line/joke. Basically the Doctor just changing the subject.

Ah, but how can you be sure?

And even if that IS the case...what does the fact the Doctor says '507' instead of '13' tell you about his state of mind? Why was he bothering to lie to Clyde? (Especially as Clyde would no doubt compare notes later with Sarah, who is presumably an expert on the 13-lives rule.) If he's THAT freaked out about only having a couple more lives (and who can blame him? Judging by his past two suicidal incarnations, his life expectancy is now considerably shorter than MINE) why would he be joking about having 507 lives? Would he not have taken steps to ensure this happy outcome (assuming that blowing up Gallifrey didn't render the whole limitation thing null and void, a la the Blinovitch Limitation Effect)?

Michael Jayston, who played the Valyard, starred as the ill-fated Tsar Nicholas II in the 1971 movie, Nicholas & Alexandra. This movie co-starred a pre-Who Tom Baker as Rasputin

Why would Sarah be an expert on the rule? The story that introduced that rule is the one immediately following her departure.

Of course she witnessed one regeneration, was involved in a multi-Doctor adventure, and has met more incarnations of the Doctor (even without the multi-Doctor story) than even the Brig, but none of this would make her an expert on 13.

Apart from Romanna, of course, the Brig might be the biggest companion knowledgeable on that issue, but this is dependent on his ability to comprehend it (never his strong point) and his ability to recall the specifics of Mawdryn Undead.

Anyway, I think the Doctor clearly had a 13-lives limit but this somehow got rewritten to 507 in an untelevised story.

Why would Sarah be an expert on the rule? The story that introduced that rule is the one immediately following her departure.

But just cos the rule was made clear to BBC-watchers then doesn't mean it wasn't ALWAYS in place (give or take 'live forever barring accidents', of course...).

Of course she witnessed one regeneration, was involved in a multi-Doctor adventure, and has met more incarnations of the Doctor (even without the multi-Doctor story) than even the Brig, but none of this would make her an expert on 13.

She's a highly nosy journalist whose life's obsession is the Doctor. OF COURSE she'd interrogate him mercilessly about regeneration. And anything HE didn't tell her she could get from the Brig and Benton.

Apart from Romanna, of course, the Brig might be the biggest companion knowledgeable on that issue, but this is dependent on his ability to comprehend it (never his strong point) and his ability to recall the specifics of Mawdryn Undead.

Fair point.

Anyway, I think the Doctor clearly had a 13-lives limit but this somehow got rewritten to 507 in an untelevised story.

It would be a very basic precaution for the Time Lords to take when dispatching fighters to the front line of the Time War - and as far back as Five Docs they could apparently give you a new regeneration cycle.

I feel a bit silly writing this review of the Valeyard, given that I haven't actually heard what is probably the most important contribution to his myth in years - the Unbound audio story He Jests at Scars. However, as the Doctor seemingly speeds towards his 12th regeneration, it seems a good time to look back (or forwards?) at this evil cast-off from that process.

The idea of the Valeyard itself is terrific. I think the moment when it is revealed that he is the Doctor in Trial of a Time Lord is wonderfully done. And after three seasons of the Sixth Doctor's struggles with his own brutality (particularly in The Twin Dilemma and Mindwarp) this battle with a physical manifestation of his cruelty is very timely (and would have been more so, had Colin Baker remained in the role).

Furthermore, the idea of the Valeyard and the Master struggling across time - two well-matched villains battling to outdo each other - is also lovely (and it is amusing to think that the Master might know more about the Doctor's future than he does himself). And while it may be a bit of a cop-out to say that the Valeyard is some kind of side-affect of a future regeneration (like the Watcher) rather than a Doctor himself, I suppose it would have been a continuity headache for producers to have had an evil incarnation of the Doctor due in a few years time.

Nevertheless, I have one real problem with the Valeyard. My problem is that, as far as his character goes, he seems to have virtually nothing in common with our Doctor. However, it seems to me that the only fun in having an evil version of any character is that you get to see the best bits of your hero perverted and turned into something unpleasant - the good humour turns to cruel mocking, the brave ingenuity turns to cunning, the loyalty turns to fanaticism, the entertaining flair turns to malevolent charm etc..

But this is not what the Valeyard is like. Look at him. Is he the Doctor? Does he have the academic, fun-loving interest in the universe that the Doctor has? No, he seems a rather close-minded villain with his eye on Time Lord politics (unlike the Monk or Master who are as much connoisseurs of the cosmos as their nemesis). Is he charming or funny? Not really - he's something of a grumpy bureaucrat throughout (unlike the devilishly smooth Master or the treacherously affable Monk). Is he incredibly intelligent and ingenious? Not really, he just seems to want to blow people up and use surreal traps. Does he even have an eccentric dress sense. No (OK, - maybe the Doctor has taken to wearing leather jackets recently, but he still has more inspiring sartorial tastes than this funny-hatted lawyer).

There is an explanation of this in Trial of a Time Lord. In the story, as the two incarnations stand on a beach, the Valeyard starts reciting Shakespeare and then curses himself for sharing the Doctor's frivolous, academic attitudes. His whole aim is to become purely evil and pragmatic. Everything in him that is Doctorish must therefore die. However, all this then means is that the Valeyard becomes a rather dull villain. And the viewer is left wondering why they would want to watch such a hard-nosed bore. I would rather the writers had chosen to turn the Valeyard into someone recognisably "the Doctor". Otherwise this whole "evil self" thing becomes a bit irrelevant.

Of course, the idea of the Valeyard was a treat for the writers of Doctor Who novels. Their Seventh Doctor was a dark and ruthlessly pragmatic person himself - even if he believed that good ends justified his actions. The Seventh Doctor could thus be portrayed as a clear step towards the genesis of the Valeyard. Indeed, we could see the logic of a whole process across three incarnations. The Fifth Doctor was straightforwardly moral, but weak and unable to bring about the best results (Earthshock, Resurrection of the Daleks). A more ruthless self needed to come into being to overcome the Fifth Doctor's scruples (Cold Fusion). And so, after the instability of the Sixth Doctor, the Machiavellian Seventh Doctor came into being (by a deliberate choice, if Love and War is to be believed). But did the Doctor take a step too far in the wrong direction? The existence of the Valeyard hints that he may have.

In Millennial Rights the Sixth Doctor faces his evil self once again - albeit in a symbolic way, in a story that seems to point towards a future as the less ethically scrupulous Seventh Doctor. Matrix then sees a morose Seventh Doctor face the shoutiest, most straightforwardly nasty version of the Valeyard yet (aka, "Jack the Ripper"). However, he sees this cruel character very much as part of himself.

And so the Valeyard is a convenient device that Doctor Who writers can keep at the back of our minds - "This," they warn, "is what the Doctor might become."

Still, this does not excuse what I think is the mistake of having an evil self that is absolutely nothing like the good self. Furthermore, the logic of the Doctor moving from scrupulous loser to pragmatist, and eventually to morally dead villain has been ruined somewhat in recent years by the introduction of perhaps the two cheeriest, most impulsive incarnations of the Doctor yet - the Eighth and Ninth (although the Ninth Doctor clearly has a very dark side - see The End of the World).

Perhaps, however, it was the exhausting experience of being these later incarnations, with their ceaseless smiling, excitement and charm that eventually drove the Valeyard to come into existence. Perhaps all that grinning turned our hero into someone who could barely raise a smile. Still, I don't think that the Valeyard really lived up to his potential as the "Evil Doctor" - nice idea as it was. Never mind - bemoaning unfulfilled potential is the lot of the Doctor Who fan...

However, as the Doctor seemingly speeds towards his 12th regeneration

Omigawd, he is, isn't he?

Did the cretinous Valeyard-creators (not to mention Robert Holmes creating a paltry thirteen lives) think the programme would be OVER before this day arrived?

The idea of the Valeyard itself is terrific.

Yeah, I suppose we've now got the Dream Lord to prove it WASN'T a godadwful idea in the first place, after all.

And while it may be a bit of a cop-out to say that the Valeyard is some kind of side-affect of a future regeneration (like the Watcher) rather than a Doctor himself, I suppose it would have been a continuity headache for producers to have had an evil incarnation of the Doctor due in a few years time.

•••• right it would!

The Valeyard's enough of a headache as it is!

as far as his character goes, he seems to have virtually nothing in common with our Doctor

Yes! How stupid is THAT!

However, it seems to me that the only fun in having an evil version of any character is that you get to see the best bits of your hero perverted and turned into something unpleasant - the good humour turns to cruel mocking, the brave ingenuity turns to cunning, the loyalty turns to fanaticism, the entertaining flair turns to malevolent charm etc

And didn't the Dream Lord do that BEAUTIFULLY? He even had a bow tie. Bow ties are cool...

after the instability of the Sixth Doctor, the Machiavellian Seventh Doctor came into being (by a deliberate choice, if Love and War is to be believed). But did the Doctor take a step too far in the wrong direction? The existence of the Valeyard hints that he may have.

Nooooo no no no! The Seventh Doctor was TOTALLY JUSTIFIED in getting rid of Colin Baker by ANY MEANS NECESSARY. Even the Valeyard is a small price to pay.

Matrix then sees a morose Seventh Doctor face the shoutiest, most straightforwardly nasty version of the Valeyard yet (aka, "Jack the Ripper").

Blimey - was THAT what happened in Matrix?

Does that mean the Valeyard's just been eaten by a lesbian Silurian? What a way to go...

And so the Valeyard is a convenient device that Doctor Who writers can keep at the back of our minds - "This," they warn, "is what the Doctor might become."

But we don't NEED a Valeyard figure as a dire warning. We can see the dangers for ourselves, when One's wielding that rock, when Ten's the Time Lord Victorious, when Nine's screaming 'WHY DON'T YOU JUST DIE!', when Eight's blowing up Gallifrey...

the introduction of perhaps the two cheeriest, most impulsive incarnations of the Doctor yet - the Eighth and Ninth (although the Ninth Doctor clearly has a very dark side - see The End of the World).

Yeah - I REALLY wouldn't put Nine on the 'Top Ten Cheeriest Doctors' list. Behind every beaming toothy grin there's a world of anguish just waiting to pour out.

Maybe the Valeyard is the Dreamlord, somehow released from the confines of the Doctor's mind at some time in the future and freely roaming the universe? Maybe the Lodger TARDIS is his TARDIS, it is his voice we hear declaring "Silence must fall" when the Doctor's TARDIS is about to explode in The Pandorica Opens and he is the one who created and runs the organization called The Silence, to prevent the Doctor from reaching the fields of Trenzalore and answering the First Question. Merging the two characters in this way would make perfect sense, be logically consistent and tie up a lot of loose ends in the series.

However, as the Doctor seemingly speeds towards his 12th regeneration

Omigawd, he is, isn't he?

Mmmmm, confused again. What makes you think he is? I saw nothing that would point in that direction.

It took 24 yrs for One to turn into Seven (avg 3 yrs each), but only 5 yrs for Nine to turn into Eleven (less than 2 yrs each).

Sorry, Amanda-I think your numbers are a bit off.

The only reason the New series is so low is that Eccy only stayed one season--Tennant stayed for 4(with the last being short) and Smith is going into his third.

on the other hand most Old Who doctors stayed 3 seasons--it only T.Baker and Pertwee who throw the curve.

I also think it works better to count end date rather then stat date for your stats.

So for Old Who you have 7 Doctors in 26(I'm not counting the movie) years for 3.71 years each.

For New Who we have 2 Doctors(not counting Eccy) in 7 years for 3.5 years each.

Doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

Maybe the Valeyard is the Dreamlord, somehow released from the confines of the Doctor's mind at some time in the future and freely roaming the universe?

Unfortunately the Dream Lord is no more like the Valeyard than the Doctor is. He's got a sense of humour, for starters.

Merging the two characters in this way would make perfect sense, be logically consistent and tie up a lot of loose ends in the series.

Though I reckon New Who would do better to simply ignore the Valeyard the way they ignored 'I'm half-human, on my mother's side'.

What makes you think he is? I saw nothing that would point in that direction.

Mainly, as Mandy said, the fact that New Who Doctors are PATHETIC WIMPS who can barely average a couple of years between 'em. Also, the fact Matt won't commit to more than one more season, the idea that a regeneration would be an exciting way of marking the 50th anniversary, and the helpful hints about the Fall of the Eleventh on the fields of Trenzalore.

The only reason the New series is so low is that Eccy only stayed one season--Tennant stayed for 4(with the last being short)

Tennant - whose LIFE'S AMBITION was to be the Doctor - granted us a miserly three-and-a-half years. Is it any WONDER we feel Mr 'I wanna go to Hollywood' Smith's tenure might stop after three years?

on the other hand most Old Who doctors stayed 3 seasons

Yeah, but they were PROPER seasons in THOSE days.

For New Who we have 2 Doctors(not counting Eccy) in 7 years for 3.5 years each.

NOT COUNTING ECCY!

You can't just...NOT COUNT ECCY!

Btw, whenever it comes, it will be the Doctor's 11th regeneration, and his 12th incarnation.

I know, I know, but honestly, does anyone expect Doctor Twelve to be long-lived either...

There may be another Tom Baker out there, somewhere. One can always hope.

Don't worry the EU sorted the Valeyard. he was created by the sixth doctor subconciously blaming Peri for the death of the 5th Doc, and his regerneration was unstable at first. he eventually came to terms with it preventing the Valeyard from ever existing.

The original idea was that this be the docs last incarnation having turned evil but it was decided that would be far to depressing an eneding imagine watching the whole rest of the series knowing what the doc was going to be.

The Doc also seems to have come to terms with his darkside since 9 and 10. 9 was obvs scarred and 10 was in denial about it.

Don't worry the EU sorted the Valeyard. he was created by the sixth doctor subconciously blaming Peri for the death of the 5th Doc, and his regerneration was unstable at first. he eventually came to terms with it preventing the Valeyard from ever existing.

What! When did the novels claim THAT? Love and War had the late Sixth Doctor becoming the Valeyard cos he was so furious that the Seventh had murdered him.

The original idea was that this be the docs last incarnation having turned evil but it was decided that would be far to depressing an eneding imagine watching the whole rest of the series knowing what the doc was going to be.

Anyone watcing Trial of a Time Lord would be way too suicidal about the PRESENT to worry about the future, especially as it was becoming obvious that - thanks to Trial of a Time Lord - Who would be lucky to HAVE a future.

The Doc also seems to have come to terms with his darkside since 9 and 10. 9 was obvs scarred and 10 was in denial about it.

Yeah, that's EXACTLY what I thought when darling Eleven came bounding in, all floppy hair and 'bow ties are cool' and 'You're Scottish - fry something!' and 'Blowing up my entire species was a bit of a bad day, yeah, whatever'...but THEN he told the Dream Lord 'There's only one person in the universe who hates me as much as you do'...

I don't know when the EU sorted out the Valeyard I read it on the Tardis wiki. I just know that they did.

I think 11 is aware of his Dark side so he keeps it under control rather than 9 and 10 who were both in denial about it.

I'm wiling to bet that when when Smith's replacement regenerates into Doc13, the whole Valeyard thing will be completely ignored. There's no way any new series producer will ruin one of their most dramatic and iconic moments with that bit of lame luggage. Doing so would serve no purpose other than pandering to canon-obsessed fanboys.

Sure they *could* do it, and do it in such a way that only classic series fans would get. And I know they didn't say the Valeyard emerged *during* the regeneration. But I'm betting they won't deal with it all, and that's the way it should be.

Moderator's Note: Moved from Doctors: Matt Smith thread:

We only have the Master's word for it that the Valeyard IS the Doctor

A good point though. It could be a future Master. We know he was resurrected during the Time War, not to mention the snake and the Don't-Ask-Don't-Telemovie Master. Possible the Ainley Master was even telling the truth as he knew it.

As I've said before, I'll bet money that the producers will not work the Valeyard story into the stories they tell when the time comes anyway, so I don't think it matters. The New Series has been careful with bringing back old foes. It's been done to big fanfare (the Returning-Monster-of-Each-Series during RTD's tenure) or else soft pedaled in like the Macra. The Valeyard was such a bad and needless idea that no writer wants to bring him back.

The Valeyard is nowhere close to what an evil Doctor would be like. An evil Doctor would behave like he did when he dispatched the Family of Blood, when he "disposed" of Solomon with no more concern than someone swatting a fly, when he offhandedly replied "Fear me, I've killed all of them" to House's boast of having killed hundreds of Timelords. An evil Doctor would behave as Hand Doctor did when he exterminated the Daleks, or as the Ninth Doctor did when he coldly watched Cassandra rip herself to bloody shreds without lifting a finger to help her. An evil Doctor would behave like that all the time, would no longer bother trying to save anyone, and would no longer be shackled with "rules" or with a concience. A truly evil Doctor would go on a rampage the Universe probably could not recover from.

It could be a future Master. We know he was resurrected during the Time War, not to mention the snake and the Don't-Ask-Don't-Telemovie Master. Possible the Ainley Master was even telling the truth as he knew it.

Excellent! The Master would know that the High Council isn't QUITE stupid-and-corrupt enough to hand over the Doctor's lives on a platter to the guy who wrecked their Capitol, but IF he said he was a bwahaha-evil-future-Doctor who'd get the goody-two-shoes out of their hair in exchange for regenerations which were RIGHTFULLY his as much as the multi-coloured freak's, THAT might possibly do the trick. Ainley too could easily have fallen for the cover story. Let's face it, that whole Time-Lords-recognising-each-other seldom works, ESPECIALLY when it comes to Doctor/Master encounters.

The Valeyard was such a bad and needless idea that no writer wants to bring him back.

Hear hear.

The Valeyard is nowhere close to what an evil Doctor would be like. An evil Doctor would behave like he did when he dispatched the Family of Blood, when he "disposed" of Solomon with no more concern than someone swatting a fly, when he offhandedly replied "Fear me, I've killed all of them" to House's boast of having killed hundreds of Timelords. An evil Doctor would behave as Hand Doctor did when he exterminated the Daleks, or as the Ninth Doctor did when he coldly watched Cassandra rip herself to bloody shreds without lifting a finger to help her.

•••• right.

WANT that Doctor! Want him NOW!

The Valeyard believed himself to be the Doc's distiller evil.

I wonder if the Valeyard was created by the Time Lords to help fight the Time War. A person with the Doctors abilites but not his conscience would be a good soldier, as long as you could keep him under control somehow. After the war, maybe he was able to slip back in time and convince the Time Lords to put the Doctor on trial and do way with him because he had discovered their secret about Earth and Ravolx.

Well, Michael Jayston is almost 80. They can't bring him back unless they want The Valeyard Battles Arthritis

I wonder if the Valeyard was created by the Time Lords to help fight the Time War. A person with the Doctors abilites but not his conscience would be a good soldier, as long as you could keep him under control somehow. After the war, maybe he was able to slip back in time and convince the Time Lords to put the Doctor on trial and do way with him because he had discovered their secret about Earth and Ravolx.

It's theoretically possible - the Time Lords are INCREDIBLY stupid and they DID resurrect the Master, after all...but would ANYONE, even a Valeyard nutcase, REALLY react to the TIME WAR by nipping back and...participating in Trial of a Time Lord? TALK about a fate worse than death...

Well, Michael Jayston is almost 80. They can't bring him back unless they want The Valeyard Battles Arthritis

Nonsense! If Wilf can be the Best Companion Ever (joint with his granddaughter, anyway) at such a coffin-dodging age, the Valeyard can stick on a skullcap and get all sarcastic. Though I hope to the gods he DOESN'T.

It's theoretically possible - the Time Lords are INCREDIBLY stupid and they DID resurrect the Master, after all...but would ANYONE, even a Valeyard nutcase, REALLY react to the TIME WAR by nipping back and...participating in Trial of a Time Lord?

Two reasons:

1) To get some regenerations since he didn't have any.

2) So he wouldn't feel like a "copy" of someone else.

A person with the Doctors abilites but not his conscience would be a good soldier, as long as you could keep him under control somehow.

How could you possibly keep someone like that under any sort of control?

Drugs? Electronic devices?

Stock options? Licensing rights? ;-)

For that matter why didn't the Time Lords take advantage of their ability to record wherever TARDISes go to create documentary films and write definitive history books?

To get some regenerations since he didn't have any

If someone offered ME some regenerations if I'd take part in Trial of a Time Lord...I'd tell 'em where to stuff themselves.

why didn't the Time Lords take advantage of their ability to record wherever TARDISes go to create documentary films and write definitive history books?

Cos they didn't give a toss?

Apparently the Valeyard would:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EznNXZqWFXA

Trial of the Valeyard (free subscriber audio):

Throws around some clever ideas about what the Valeyard might be, though of course it then cravenly says they were all lies, and then irritatingly says they might have a grain of truth in them...Of course, I'd be EVEN MORE annoyed if it stated any of these ideas as FACT...

'A Watcher! That's it!' - you never thought of that explanation for the Valeyard BEFORE?

Oh wait! The Valeyard CAN'T be a Watcher cos...he doesn't look like the Doctor's last Watcher!! Cos OF COURSE it makes TOTAL LOGICAL SENSE that a Watcher can't change its appearance...

So the Valeyard is actually the result of the Thirteenth Doctor's illegal and dangerous experimental efforts to escape death...(Cos, yeah, that Doctor - he's just SUCH a coward.)

This is a spectacularly ill-timed CD, though to be fair, they couldn't have foreseen Moffat's attempts to bring about a regeneration crisis early via ludicrous claims about Tennant's vanity.

KEITH in Mawdryn Undead section:

Emily - I'm firmly of the belief that the Valeyard was AT MOST a potential future
*Bangs head into desk* No! No! No! He wasn't a potential future at all! He was an amalgamation of the Doctor's evil (or something like that).

Yes, yes, sorry, I wasn't implying he was a potential future DOCTOR, just that he was an evil amalgum...thingamajig who'd travelled back from a potential future that now isn't gonna happen because Gallifrey was destroyed...

...Oh. It's back.

And come to think of it, it was amazingly forethoughtful of the Production Team to claim the Valeyard was from 'somewhere between the Doctor's twelfth and final incarnations'. Instead of between the twelfth and thirteenth. What with the new regeneration cycle and all.

Basically he was like a clone of the Doctor, but only given the bad parts of his personality, i.e. kidnapping people, bashing heads in with rocks, reciting poetry when a lighthouse full of people died, pushing people into acid baths, talking about eating cats, trying to bend time to his will, the Dreamlord, etc., with none of the good parts.

Ignoring the bizarre idea that reciting poetry is a crime on a par with cat-threatening or acid baths...Now I come to think of it, I'd pretty much LOVE an evil Doctor made up of the Dream Lord's sense of humour, Troughton and McCoy's ruthless manipulativeness, Pertwee's arrogance, Tom's indifference to human life when looking at the bigger picture, Hartnell's indifference to human life when NOT looking at the bigger picture, Eccy's contempt for the human race, Matt's contempt for the Gallifreyan race, and, of course, Tenannt's Time Lord Victorious...That would be one HELL of a sexy Doctor. AND he (or she) would actually GET AWAY FROM BLOODY EARTH for a while...

AND he (or she) would actually GET AWAY FROM BLOODY EARTH for a while...

Or, maybe, he or she would blow it up, just for fun.

Or maybe the human Tennant Doctor isn't quite as human as we thought. Perhaps he has a regeneration in him, or manages to engineer a cycle.

While that's not a particularly appealing theory (no theory regarding the Valeyard is), it does fit the establish story quite well.

Emily - Ignoring the bizarre idea that reciting poetry is a crime on a par with cat-threatening or acid baths
Well, since I was using your example of the acid bath I thought I'd throw in Rodney's complaint as well. ;-) I was going to use the scene from The Sun Makers where Tom booby traps a device and then makes a quip when a guy gets zapped by it, but couldn't think of a short way to say it.

Or, maybe, he or she would blow it up, just for fun.

Nooooo no no no. MY Dark Doctor would, unlike that Valeyard travesty, still be recognisably the Doctor. S/he would NEVER blow up Earth for fun.

S/he would, of course, blow up Earth for a REASON. Perhaps when faced with a similar dilemma's to Eccy-in-Parting-of-the-Ways, perhaps just because s/he'd FINALLY worked out how many OTHER planets were getting wiped out while s/he was obsessing over one particular mudball...

I was going to use the scene from The Sun Makers where Tom booby traps a device and then makes a quip when a guy gets zapped by it, but couldn't think of a short way to say it.

Yes! THAT'S what I want my Dark Doctor to be like! (Only NOT warning the genocidal maniac in the totalitarian society not to touch the switch first.)

So the Valeyard is actually the result of the Thirteenth Doctor's illegal and dangerous experimental efforts to escape death...(Cos, yeah, that Doctor - he's just SUCH a coward.)

Yeah, Time of the Doctor DID rather blow a hole in that theory SPOILERS FOR TIME OF THE DOCTOR given that he had around a thousand years to try to prolong his life beyond its so-called thirteenth regeneration...and instead he chose to spend his spare time building bigger-on-the-inside barns and teaching kids to dance the Drunk Giraffe.

Lance Parkin (in Licence Denied): 'On television we are never actually told that the Valeyard is from the Doctor's future' - yup, he has some crazy theory that the Morbius Faces WERE the Doctor, ergo, the Watcher 'existed between the Doctor's twelfth and thirteenth incarnations', so 'Could the Watcher and the Valeyard be created at the same time, one a distillation of good, the other a distillation of evil?' - well, given that the 'good' one told the Doc to wipe out half the universe and then go jump off a radio telescope, possibly not.

Though nice TRY.

Pip n'Jane in DWM: 'The Valeyard was a Time Lord villain. He had this tremendous intellectual capacity. You got to give him something that matches that...he can't just mouth mundane chit chat' - well, now we know what the catharsis of spurious morality was in aid of.

Ultimate Foe:

'How else can I obtain my freedom? Operate as a complete entity, unfettered by your side of my existence. Only by ridding myself of you and your misplaced morality, your constant crusading...only by releasing myself from the misguised maxims that you nuture can I be free. With you destroyed and no longer able to constrain me, and with unlimited access to the Matrix, there will be nothing beyond my reach' - hmm. Since when have ANY of the Doctor's incarnations managed to fetter the other ones? And what makes the Valeyard think that now the Time Lords KNOW he's all over the Matrix, he'll be left to control it in peace?

'How else can I obtain my freedom? Operate as a complete entity, unfettered by your side of my existence. Only by ridding myself of you and your misplaced morality, your constant crusading...only by releasing myself from the misguised maxims that you nuture can I be free. With you destroyed and no longer able to constrain me...'

Almost sounds like what the Eighth Doctor had to do to become the War Doctor.

And what makes the Valeyard think that now the Time Lords KNOW he's all over the Matrix, he'll be left to control it in peace?

He probably thinks the Time Lords would be too terrified to try fighting him, and too feeble to pose a serious threat in they did try.

Almost sounds like what the Eighth Doctor had to do to become the War Doctor.

That's true. And what made perfect sense in Night of the Doctor makes no sense HERE - even if (as one HAS to assume cos the alternative doesn't bear thinking about) the Valeyard is some sort of dark Watcher rather than a genuine incarnation of Our Hero, his other selves don't seem to be doing a terribly good job of constraining him from being evil.

(To be honest, I don't consider blowing all the representatives of Gallifrey's highest court to smithereens to be IRREDEEMABLY evil, but making us sit though fourteen episodes of Trial of a Time Lord is positively SATANIC.)

He probably thinks the Time Lords would be too terrified to try fighting him, and too feeble to pose a serious threat in they did try.

He'd have a good point...if the Master wasn't already in the Matrix and already announing that HE'D execute anyone who challenged HIS supreme Matrix-controlling authority...

Given their past history, the Valeyard probably doesn't consider the Master a serious threat. He'd probably say something along the lines of "The Master could never defeat me, even when I was handicapped by spurious morals. How can he hope to stand against me now? Soon, he will cower at my feet, and call me his Master."

Given their past history, the Valeyard probably doesn't consider the Master a serious threat.

But THIS is one of those rare occasions when the Master kinda wins. Whilst the Doctor is flailing helplessly around, the Master has, in the space of about thirty seconds, revealed the Valeyard's identity and fiendish plans, ruined the Trial, got the Valeyard's allies on the High Council overthrown, and robbed the Valeyard of full control over the Matrix. What's he gonna do for an encore? (Well, as it happens, absolutely nothing. But that's not the POINT.)

And, after all, apparently the DOCTOR has been foiling the Valeyard with his tedious moral crusading without even noticing his existence so what THE MASTER would do to him doesn't bear thinking about.

And if the Valeyard had any self-confidence he'd have chosen a direct confrontation with his nemesis instead of acquiring grossly incompetent and unreliable allies and inflicting that godawful Trial on us all.

(On the other hand, of course, THE MASTER HIMSELF claims the Valeyard is more of a threat to him than the Doctor could ever be. But presumably he's just having a laugh/unwilling to admit he's helping dear old Theta cos he's still in love with him.)

Come to think of it, wouldn't it have been a better move for the Valeyard to march up to Davison with the relevant machinery and snarl 'Gimme your regenerations or Nyssa and Tegan will have to live on a luxury spaceship!'? It would ALMOST CERTAINLY have WORKED.

Also, isn't the Valeyard worried that inheriting the Doctor's remaining regenerations will make him more...Doctorish?

My current headcanon on the Knacker's Yard is that he was "supposed" to be the 11th/12th Doctor that was overwritten by Ten regenerating into himself, and he's a bit bitter about it.

Why on Earth would Darling Ten originally have been due to regenerate into an evil boring git like the Valeyard instead of becoming Darling Eleven?

There's a piece of fiction somewhere on t'interweb which posits the Valeyard is "John Smith" aka the Human Doctor that Tennant left behind with Rose on Pete's World.

The Human Doctor isn't called John Smith, he's called THE DOCTOR.

And he's in another universe.

And he doesn't look anything like the Valeyard.

And he's REALLY REALLY HAPPY having sex with Rose Tyler, thank you very much.

And honestly, I don't think even having Jackie Tyler as your mother-in-law is enough to send ANYONE into 'Catharsis of spurious morality!' mode...

the line was "between your twelfth and final incarnation"... Not 13th. What's actually always interested me, is that's a double shock right there.

The Master, the Anthony Ainley one, has had dealings with the Valeyard before... "or as I've always known him, the Doctor".

So in addition to being the foe to Doctors 4, 5, 6 & 7... he's also crossed paths with whatever number Michael Jayston's supposed to be.

Although clearly we're going to have do "a David Bradley recast" for both Ainley and Jayston, when we finally get there.

the line was "between your twelfth and final incarnation"... Not 13th. What's actually always interested me, is that's a double shock right there.

'Final' was just another way of saying 'Thirteenth' back then, the Valeyard was obviously supposed to be a Watcher gone almost-as-hideously-wrong-as-that-white-bandaged-nutcase-who-persuaded-Tom-to-wipe-out-half-the-universe but yeah, that careless choice of words has since taken on more significance than intended.

The Master, the Anthony Ainley one, has had dealings with the Valeyard before... "or as I've always known him, the Doctor".

He COULD have just looked him up on TARDIS=Wikipedia or something.

So in addition to being the foe to Doctors 4, 5, 6 & 7... he's also crossed paths with whatever number Michael Jayston's supposed to be.

Like I said, I don't think he's a number (or even a numberless proper Doctor like Hurt). He's just an evil jumped-up Cho-Je type.

Although clearly we're going to have do "a David Bradley recast" for both Ainley and Jayston, when we finally get there.

Or, better still, just NEVER GET THERE.

The next Doctor is definitely NOT the Valeyard,,,

One certainly HOPES not.

Of course, it could be ANY of the numerous Doctors between her/his twelfth and final incarnation, i.e. anyone post-second-Tennant.

Or, um, something.

Bernice Summerfield: Every Dark Thought:

There are a few claims made about the Valeyard that we might as well add to the scraps of nonsensical info already assembled:

'I cannot be averted, only postponed' - *sigh* still gonna pop up between the twelfth and final regeneration then, even if said 'final' is a delightfully looooooong way after twelve...

'You're not a regeneration, you just fell off the back of a lorry!...A twisted little fragment' - Benny sums up the Valeyard a lot more clearly than anyone did in fourteen interminable Valeyard episodes, despite the fact the gibbering moron thought he was the DOCTOR up till a minute ago.

'Nobody should have to live like that!' - the Valeyard believes he came into being because the Doctor had the true scale of the universe on his shoulders, all those people he failed to save? That...almost makes sense.

which actor should play The Valeyard, MIA since the Thatcher years, and who frankly should be reappearing already?

Michael Jayston?

Except for the fact that he's 34 years older.

Of course, he could still do the Valeyard in Audios, if he hasn't already done so.

Course he has. Bennies, Unbounds, Sixth Doctors, Eighth Doctors...sounds perfectly Valeyard-ish still.

Ah, I thought so, but I wasn't sure.

DANIEL in Modern Who: Season Twelve: General Discussion:

I think old Stackyard would be a decent villain. He’s not been reintroduced to the show yet and he’s an easy thing to explain to newcomers. Doc’s dark side made flesh.

Easy but...wrong. The entire bloody POINT of the Doc is that s/he isn't all sweetness and light, s/he can go all Oncoming Storm on your arse at any time and all her darkness hasn't been bizarrely siphoned off each regeneration or, um, whatever-the-hell was going on in Trial of a Time Lord, a story whose very existence should be buried under layers of obfuscation and denial, never mind disinterring any of its rubbish ideas for regurgitation over a modern audience...

Rail yard was an amalgam of the darkness of the Doc’s post Doc 12

I got the impression it was ALL previous Docs' darkness merged into one that came into being thanks to High Council machinations post-Twelve, but what do I know. Or care.

Technically Matt Smith was the 12th regeneration

You're forgetting the two Tennants (still a mind-numbingly awful idea, and I speak as someone who'd put up with ANYTHING for more Tennanty goodness).

Matt was the thirteenth Doctor.

The Matt Smith Doctor was the 13th Doctor and the 12th regeneration, there is no "technically" about it.

Look, 'technically' might not be, well, technically true but sometimes you've just gotta insert it to save your sanity •••• YOU MOFFAT FOR SCREWING UP OUR SACRED DOCTOR-NUMBERING SYSTEM!!!

•••• YOU MOFFAT FOR SCREWING UP OUR SACRED DOCTOR-NUMBERING SYSTEM!!!

To quote the General in Day of the Doctor...I didn't know when I was well-off.

Kudos to Big Finish, it never occurred to me that OTHER Time Lords might have their own Valeyards...

What next? Everyone of them having a Dreamlord too?

Excellent idea!

Emily: To quote the General in Day of the Doctor...
-- Why not attribute that to the Brig?

Because I really hate Three Docs and it's been *checks* thirteen years since I bothered to watch it...

While I really wish the anniversary wasn't handed to Baker and Martin, I certainly don't feel so strongly about it. Why so much hated for it?

Um, come to think of it I'm not sure, 'hate' is probably too strong a word it's just so...disappointing. Notwithstanding the glorious appearance of the Second Doc and the Omega-has-no-face! moment, and I cried my eyes out for the Doctor's recorder the first time I saw it...actually I should give it another chance...

Who out of the available Pertwee Era stable of writers would you give it to? As for it being broadcast around the ninth anniversary - waiting until November 1973 would be taking a BIG risk as Hartnell was failing fast.

Although Emily has pointed out that he isn't the greatest Who writer so much as the most wildly inconsistent, Robert Holmes would be my first choice.

waiting until November 1973 would be taking a BIG risk as Hartnell was failing fast.

They didn't know that till it was practically about to film. Also, they could have filmed it when they did and saved it up...Or they could have got a substitute, poor Hartnell gets on-screen replacements more often than I've had hot dinners...

Robert Holmes would be my first choice.

Robert Holmes TRIED to write our Twentieth and failed. Terrance Dicks stepped in and was magnificent. Terrance for Tenth Anniversary too!

This may shock you, but I prefer The Three Doctors to the Five. I'm well are of the faults of the former, but I'm painfully aware of the faults of the latter as well.

And Dicks' Eight Doctors isn't exactly the best of the lot.

This may shock you, but I prefer The Three Doctors to the Five.

Yeah, that IS deeply shocking.

Terrance for Tenth Anniversary too!

"Omega [to Jo]: You won't need clothes in your new career ... [looks under his robes] ... and neither will I"

I guess the Valeyard has been retconned out.

Heavens no.

Twice Upon a Time:

'The Imp of the Pandorica. The Shadow of the Valeyard. The Beast of Trenzalore. The Butcher of Skull Moon. The Last Tree of Garsennon. The Destroyer of Skaro. He is the Doctor of War.'

This is one of the continuity problems Chibnall has caused. The Valeyard went back to the Sixth Doctor’s trial to steal his remaining regenerations. Well NOW before the Valeyard’s time the Doctor has endless regenerations. So why did he menace the Sixth?

Because only the presence of Colin Baker (and Colin Baker's ••••••• COAT) could cause anything as vile as the Valeyard to spontaneously appear?

Time War 3: The War Valeyard:

I wonder if the Valeyard was created by the Time Lords to help fight the Time War. A person with the Doctors abilites but not his conscience would be a good soldier

Not created but kudos for being absolutely correct about his Time-War-fighting abilities. In that, he actually WINS IT for the Time Lords...

Also in this audio: Bliss on having the Valeyard explained to her: 'So you're your own worst enemy!' 'Well...top three' replies the Doctor. Top three THOUSAND maybe...at a pinch...

'Rescue the Doctor? Nonsense. You don't rescue the Doctor. He rescues you' - the Valeyard seems to have rather rose-tinted specs about Our Hero...(Well, so do I obviously but I'm not deluded enough to think s/he doesn't need rescuing. A lot.)

Awww, according to the behind-the-scenes stuff Colin Baker and Michael Jayston have been friends since Trial. Glad SOMETHING good came out of it, and of course Six WOULD be the kind of Doctor to get on with the VALEYARD.

Oh, and Jayston hated his hat.

And thinks Big Finish is better than Trial of a Time Lord. One can't really argue, though at least Trial takes up less of one's time and money...

A person with the Doctors abilites but not his conscience would be a good soldier

It would be absolutely terrifying. As in "There was a goblin, or a trickster, or a warrior. A nameless, terrible thing, soaked in the blood of a billion galaxies. The most feared being in all the cosmos. And nothing could stop it, or hold it, or reason with it. One day it would just drop out of the sky and tear down your world." kind of terrifying.

Yeah, but when you're fighting THE DALEKS for the future of creation, that's exactly what you need. And what it was implied the War Doctor was, and what the War Doctor totally failed to be...

Yeah, trying to save Davros totally conflicts with the title War Doctor.

The Doctor isn't Superman or Batman with their non-killing codes. Few people think it's a bad thing when the Doctor allows the enemy to die.