I've just started this- there are some veeery interesting things going on. The arc is really starting up now.

Edje, I managed to get this out of the library but some bast- I mean, some human being with a perfect right to get things out of libraries, and with the good taste to be a Who fan, has beaten me to The Blue Angel. Can I read this without reading TBA first, or should I grit my teeth and wait to read them in order?

(smugly glancing at his shelf of all the EDAs, upto and including Frontier Worlds)

At this point I'm not entirely sure. There is a bit of stuff early on related to TBA. However, it is not directly linked.

But I think TBA is a very important EDA.

There is a lot of interesting stuff going on in it, and you'd be missing a lot.

IMHO, it's better to read TBA first.

*Grits teeth and attempts to look grateful*

Thank you sooo much...I will take your advice, leaving me with a Doctorless Christmas holiday...unless I can bring myself to read Sky Pirates or Parasite, of course...

*Brightens up a little at the thought of Edje forking out a fiver for such soulless nonentities as Longest Day, Revolution Man, Dreamstone Moon, Janus Conjunction...*

Sky Pirates is great! Parasite is ok.

And hey, at least none of my tables wobble. (grin)

Theories on who the Hermit is meant to be?

Hermit? What Hermit? I have to admit that my
memories of this book are already rather
vague...

One has a mentor referred to mysteriously as only 'the Hermit', who is the only other 'person' besides One to escape Mictlan at the end of ToP5. The Hermit was the one who showed One the 'Swimmers' at the edge of the universe.
Their last scene at the end of the book indicates that they are important to the great scheme of things in the EDAs, but of course, after the travesty that be 'The Ancestor Cell' and the unfortunate downfall of Miles after 'Interference' it seems unlikely that we will see either them for a while or perhaps ever again.

Great. It doesn't even make it past page 5 without drowning some kittens. And later a LOT of eyeballs get pulled out (well, these creatures do have five of 'em each). What IS it with these twin obsessions? When did they take root in Who fiction?

Can't the Time Lords arrange to download maps into soldiers' heads without making them blind in one eye? Surely that would impair their efficiency, especially given they'd usually only have two eyes...

'Xenaria's natural instinct to recognise members of her species regardless of appearance allowed her to tell them apart' - oh not THAT old chestnut again. Sure, the Doctor and War Chief may have recognised each other (personally, not merely as Time Lords) but this mythical recognition sure as hell didn't work in, say, King's Demons.

Gallifrey is covered in thick black smoke thanks to the War? Pretty stupid of 'em to pollute their own planet (well, their own nine planets) when there are plenty of other worlds out there. Plus couldn't they invent air purifiers or something? In the PROPER Time War Gallifrey retained its lovely orange skies, at least until the Doctor blew 'em up.

'I knew, from my own travels if nothing else, that no such civilisation existed. Besides, if the Elder Things really had dominated prehistoric Earth, how come they never bumped into any of the other species who popped through this part of the galaxy during this period? Leaving aside their appearance in early twentieth-century horror fiction.' - Firstly, when has the Doctor ever bothered with prehistoric Earth for more than five minutes? Secondly, since when has appearing in fictionalised form, like Theseus or the Golden Fleece, ever stopped something being true? Thirdly, how do you KNOW they didn't bump into plenty of other species? Fourthly, you didn't even notice that supercomputer-that-ran-the-whole-galaxy on Earth (Enemy of the Bane) so BOY you're slipping. And fifthly, weren't there genuine Elder Things in Lurkers at Sunlight's Edge? (NB: This is a genuine question. Damned if I can remember.)

'Now he could no longer feel his own grief - if it had ever been his own' - you made it clear before that it DEFINITELY wasn't his own.

Love the numerous continuity references. Especially 'innards of Karfelon circuitry like tinsel at Christmas'...though, given that the Borad gets his brains blown out, TWO Timelash references might be considered excessive.

'Like human miners with a canary' - ah, THIS is where Moffat nicked the idea of what the Doctor's humans were for! LOVE the reaction to Compassion: 'Xenaria hoped it was trained not to soil its outer layers. Presumably it had some rudimentary intelligence.'

If Rassilon is literally worshipped as a god these days...why not GET HIM OUT OF THAT TOMB and have him running the War? (OK, so it didn't work that well for the TV version of the War but they're not to know that.)

Like Millennium Shock and Millennial Rites, this REALLY overestimates the importance of the millennium for this planet.

'There were nine identical Gallifreys, one down since they lost a homeworld in the battle of Mutter's Cluster. Cluster's last stand, the wits had called it, before the purge. Rumour had it even the Lord President didn't know which was the original and which were the duplicates, that security was so tight there were further Gallifreys, secreted in pocket universes lest all the others be destroyed' - haaang on, so what DID happen to these pocket-Gallifreys when the others WERE all destroyed in Ancestor Cell? In which there WERE actually (at the beginning of the book, at least) nine Gallifreys, not eight? And didn't Alien Bodies make it clear that the ORIGINAL homeworld had already definitely been wiped out?

To be continued...

this mythical recognition sure as hell didn't work in, say, King's Demons.

Why should it? Biologically, the only Time Lord in that was the Doctor. The Master was merely a possessed Trakenite.

Pretty stupid of 'em to pollute their own planet

Once they win the war, they can erase it from history, including all the pollution, just as may have happened with the First Great Time War - the war, vaguely hinted at in the books, where the Gallifreyans retroactively eliminated all their rivals.

'I knew, from my own travels if nothing else, that no such civilisation existed....

It wouldn't be the first time the Doctor as said something authoritatively which turns out to be less then correct - from claiming you can;t rewrite even one line of history to claiming the space titanic would destroy the world if it crashed.

If Rassilon is literally worshipped as a god these days...why not GET HIM OUT OF THAT TOMB and have him running the War?

It's the common Time Lords who are doing the worshipping. The President is implied to be the Master, who would only worship himself.

haaang on, so what DID happen to these pocket-Gallifreys when the others WERE all destroyed in Ancestor Cell?

Unknown, so far. Sooner or later, we'll doubtless get an explanation from some crazed author, determined to make Doctor Who continuity make sense. It might even make it to the screen, if the BBC are in the right mood.

And didn't Alien Bodies make it clear that the ORIGINAL homeworld had already definitely been wiped out?

It's a Time War. Gallifrey could have been wiped out three dozen times before the war settled into final configuration, with the Daleks as the Enemy, only to get unwiped 35 times.

this mythical recognition sure as hell didn't work in, say, King's Demons.

Why should it? Biologically, the only Time Lord in that was the Doctor. The Master was merely a possessed Trakenite.

I keep forgetting that. OK, it didn't work in The Next Doctor. Ten genuinely thought the idiot human was a future self. He wasn't exactly great about sniffing out River's Time Lord DNA either, and this is the bloke who's convinced he'd SENSE it if a SINGLE OTHER TIME LORD existed ANYWHERE in the UNIVERSE. (And the Master took him seriously enough to run some drumbeat interference with Time Lord recognition.)

It wouldn't be the first time the Doctor as said something authoritatively which turns out to be less then correct - from claiming you can;t rewrite even one line of history to claiming the space titanic would destroy the world if it crashed.

Yeah *sigh* but I just can't HELP it, I have this terrible tendency to believe every word he says. He's THE DOCTOR. Even with River popping up every two minutes to say 'Rule One: The Doctor Lies'...

The President is implied to be the Master, who would only worship himself.

Only in The Book of The Book. In the EDAs there's no indication that THE MASTER is running the place before Romana takes over. I seem to remember Ancestor Cell saying something about Romana getting the job by duelling Flavia...

Sooner or later, we'll doubtless get an explanation from some crazed author, determined to make Doctor Who continuity make sense.

It doesn't matter how crazed you are, NO ONE would be insane enough to even TRY to reconcile Old Who, New Who, the novels AND the audios, SURELY?

It might even make it to the screen, if the BBC are in the right mood.

Or if the BBC just fancy destroying Who...

It's a Time War. Gallifrey could have been wiped out three dozen times before the war settled into final configuration, with the Daleks as the Enemy, only to get unwiped 35 times.

Oh. Yeah. ••••. I ADORED that flippant line in Alien Bodies that wiped out Gallifrey. No New Who angst about THAT.

Ten genuinely thought the idiot human was a future self.

Under a chameleon arch, which would have made him temporarily human. River Song doesn't have one scrap of Time Lord DNA (where would she have got it from? the Doctor?) just human DNA infused with massive amounts of artron energy, giving her Time Lord abilities.

In the EDAs there's no indication that THE MASTER is running the place before Romana takes over.

It's been a while, but 'Taking of Planet Five' gave me the distinct impression they were hinting that the Master had taken over.

NO ONE would be insane enough to even TRY to reconcile Old Who, New Who, the novels AND the audios, SURELY?

As it happens, Lance Parkin's Unauthorised history does exactly that, squeezing them all into one timeline and more besides.

The online blurb says it includes "all Doctor Who TV episodes through Series 6 starring Matt Smith; all New Series Adventures up through The Silent Stars Go By (#50); the Big Finish audio range up through Army of Death (#155); all Torchwood episodes, novels and comics up through Series 4 (Miracle Day); all The Sarah Jane Adventures episodes, audios and webcomics up through Series 5; the K9 TV show; all Telos novellas; the IDW and Doctor Who Magazine comics; and a cornucopia of other Doctor Who spin-off series (the Bernice Summerfield novels and audios, Dalek Empire, Iris Wildthyme, Faction Paradox and more)." It attempts to "incorporate the whole of Doctor Who into a single timeline. All told, this book takes nearly 1400 full-length Doctor Who stories and dates them in a single chronology — starting with the Universe’s origins and working its way forward to the end of time."

If the next person to take over the show has read that book, and taken it seriously, they may well attempt to canonise everything in sight, even the comics.

Assuming you don't want that, the obvious thing to do is to prepare a devastating refutation of Parkin's book, though admittedly, that would mean reading it.

Ten genuinely thought the idiot human was a future self.

Under a chameleon arch

I'm not so sure. Admittedly I don't exactly rewatch Next Doctor on a regular basis, but I thought the idea of the Chameleon Arch came a bit later, once the Doc had spotted Jackson's fobwatch, and at first he just thought the poor chap was suffering from amnesia.

And what about Time and the Rani? Seven had to take Mel's pulse to tell whether or not she was a Time Lord. (Admittedly the post-regenerative trauma was pretty severe. And not just for him - I'm still suffering from just WATCHING it.)

And I'm sure there must have been occasions he failed to spot the Delgado Master or the Rani when they were in disguise, even if I can't think of any occasions off-hand.

River Song doesn't have one scrap of Time Lord DNA (where would she have got it from? the Doctor?) just human DNA infused with massive amounts of artron energy, giving her Time Lord abilities.

Are you QUITE SURE? I think it did say Human plus Time Lord DNA. And she got it the same way the Time Lords originally did - the space-time Vortex. NOT from the Doctor, though Moffat sure as hell had fun dangling THAT possibility in front of us...

It's been a while, but 'Taking of Planet Five' gave me the distinct impression they were hinting that the Master had taken over.

I didn't pick up on that at all. And it's not as if I wasn't primed for such an idea, from the Faction Paradox universe. I remember the President being ruthless as hell, but ALL the Time Lords were by this stage - and there was absolutely no mention of a black pointy beard.

Even leaving aside the fact we all KNOW the Master didn't heroically lead the stuggle, he bloody SCARPERED to the ends of the universe...(Though if pocket universes were so easy to get into why didn't he keep his own personality and go to one of THEM?)

NO ONE would be insane enough to even TRY to reconcile Old Who, New Who, the novels AND the audios, SURELY?

As it happens, Lance Parkin's Unauthorised history does exactly that, squeezing them all into one timeline and more besides.

Ah yeah, but that's a non-fiction work, that's DIFFERENT.

Assuming you don't want that, the obvious thing to do is to prepare a devastating refutation of Parkin's book, though admittedly, that would mean reading it.

Ah. Yes. That WOULD be a problem. I have the second edition on my shelf, and it's very useful for dipping into when you want to check a date or something, but READING THE WHOLE THING...the mind boggles. I mean, what kind of lunatic would DELIBERATELY INCLUDE THE BLOODY COMICS?????

there must have been occasions he failed to spot the Delgado Master or the Rani when they were in disguise,

The Rani did fail to notice anything odd when Six turned up on her doorstep, but considering how much he stood out, even to human eyes, we can only assume her massive pride blinded her.

Are you QUITE SURE? I think it did say Human plus Time Lord DNA.

Not quite. They said her DNA looked Time Lordly, but only in the same sense as humans look Time Lordly - same basic shape, different at the atomic level.

I remember the President being ruthless as hell, but ALL the Time Lords were by this stage - and there was absolutely no mention of a black pointy beard.

But we now know the Master can drop the beard, under the right circumstances.

Ah yeah, but that's a non-fiction work

There's nothing to stop script writers using it for reference though - 'OK, the Doctor's landed in 1863. Let's check what Parkin says was going on that year, for continuity's sake.'

.the mind boggles. I mean, what kind of lunatic would DELIBERATELY INCLUDE THE BLOODY COMICS?????

Could be pride - 'they said it was impossible, but I will prove them wrong,' cue mad laughter - or it might simply be money. There's a third edition coming out in November, which is the one I quoted the blurb from. They wouldn't be printing a third edition if the publisher didn't expect to make plenty of money on the deal, some of which may eventually reach Lance Parkin.

The Rani did fail to notice anything odd when Six turned up on her doorstep

Aha! I KNEW it!

but considering how much he stood out, even to human eyes, we can only assume her massive pride blinded her.

I don't think pride would have anything to do with it, it's a subconscious thing. Didn't Morbius and the Doctor bump brains, or something?

Are you QUITE SURE? I think it did say Human plus Time Lord DNA.

Not quite. They said her DNA looked Time Lordly, but only in the same sense as humans look Time Lordly - same basic shape, different at the atomic level.

Someone go and rewatch A Good Man Goes To War IMMEDIATELY!

But we now know the Master can drop the beard, under the right circumstances.

Well, as far as the EDAs were concerned, the only 'right circumstances' in which he'd drop the beard is if the Doctor grew one.

There's nothing to stop script writers using it for reference though - 'OK, the Doctor's landed in 1863. Let's check what Parkin says was going on that year, for continuity's sake.'

Huh. If The Moff was THAT concerned about continuity he wouldn't have had the Doctor programme the Silurians to wake up just when HE'D told us there'd be solar flares...

Could be pride - 'they said it was impossible, but I will prove them wrong,' cue mad laughter - or it might simply be money.

Yeah, I can really get the first suggestion. (The money, not so much. Surely loads MORE people would have coughed up for it if it had been a bit thinner and cheaper and NOT CONTAMINATED WITH STUPID COMICS??)

'Other species had numerous words to describe snow or rain, but Gallifreyans could, traditionally, name over thirty different types of culture shock.' - Lovely idea, but I've never seen a Time Lord suffer from culture shock (though they damned well SHOULD, come to think of it). Hell, I've never even seen a HUMAN suffer from culture shock, at least in Old Who.

'Everyone knew there were aliens' - didn't you say earlier that the British ignored all alien invasions as hoaxes?

'It was time-looped for the best of reasons, and time-looped it must remain' - weren't you yelling about it being CRIMINAL!!! in Image of the Fendahl?

'The Adventures of the New Frontier: Phantom Gadgets' - ah bless, a reference to his own Ghost Devices!

'They harvest us...we do not understand...everything is pressing in on us always...The young are gone...into the war hives, into the hyper-Looms, to be trained, mated with the raping nanoknives of the things that live inside our Masters...They say it is the war, but we cannot know that it is just. Some say we are on the wrong side. Some say we are the other side, or will be...Tell us of hatred'...Well. SOME TARDISes aren't happy. And it's odd, having heard this, that Compassion eventually makes a deal with the Time Lords to allow these things to be bred from her.

Oh great, now a cat's being burnt to a crisp. What's the MATTER with these people??

'Long ago and far away in the past, the Delphons and the Tersurans lost any but the most tenuous forms of communication, driving evolution to desperate expedients to salvage their species' potentials' - oh, so it was the Fendahl Predator who was to blame!

'You've torn the whole spiral envelope open' - it wasn't HIM wot dunnit!

'She could tell herself that the war with the Enemy was justified, that she was fighting for her own kind, for a billion years of culture and kindly patronage' - is THAT what the Time Lords think they've been doing - KINDLY PATRONAGE? (Still, kudos for realising back in 1999 that Time Lords had a billion-year history (End of Time) rather than a ten-million-year one (Trial).)

'I could be Lord President, run on a "To Hell and Back" ticket' - blimey, Gallifrey - not exactly known as a beacon of democracy even at the best of times - is still holding elections during this state of SERIOUS emergency?

'And did you free your slave, free spirit? No, it is clear from your mind that you did not. She still carried you, through space and time, through matter and antimatter. Going where you willed, not where she wished' - well. Even BEFORE The Doctor's Wife it should have been obvious that THAT'S a big fat lie.

'It wasn't like that. We fled together, the TARDIS and Susan and me. We freed her between us. For ages I struggled with manual controls I'd invented myself, things I'd built to free her from the direct overriding force of my mind' - yeah, I SO didn't get that impression during the Hartnell era...OR whenever I see anyone ELSE'S TARDIS. Master and Monk built manual controls to free their Ships too, did they?

'It had taken Holsred a while to get used to the Doctor's TARDIS. Not only did it feign nonsentience, but as an old Type 40 it still relied on the most basic of user interfaces' - haaang on, you just said the Doctor built the user interfaces, they WEREN'T Type 40 standard.

'His five eyes were ripped out by their stalks, one by one' - gimme a BREAK!

'An incredibly strong and agile hand crushed one of Xenaria's eyes' - which part of GIVE - ME - A - BREAK! are you just not GETTING, here?

Oh, and it spotted that a Time Lord could 'switch off the hormonal and subhormonal triggers that would have fired the engines of regeneration' long before New Who told us so.

'"You mean you didn't realise who she was?" gasped Marie' - yeah, shouldn't a Time Lord agent KNOW that the Doctor's Companion Compassion will breed the next generation of TARDISes? I mean, isn't it a pretty important piece of history?

'Gallifreyans could, traditionally, name over thirty different types of culture shock.' - Lovely idea, but I've never seen a Time Lord suffer from culture shock

Clearly, it's a new tradition, or possibly a revived one. The Time War was certainly big enough to shake Gallifreyan culture out of its rut.

'It was time-looped for the best of reasons, and time-looped it must remain' - weren't you yelling about it being CRIMINAL!!! in Image of the Fendahl?

But that was before he had the Vardans timelooped. Maybe he learnt a little more about the law in between.

is THAT what the Time Lords think they've been doing - KINDLY PATRONAGE?

But of course. They could have declared themselves a race of god-kings - mile high statues on every planet, legions of slaves singing hymns to their glory, their enemies thrown into artificial hells - but instead they chose to tread lightly on the universe, leaving its peoples free to make their own mistakes, and intervening only when the 'lesser' races tamper with technologies dangerous beyond their comprehension.

Compared to what the Racnoss and many others would have been like, had they become the Lords of Time, the Gallifreyans are indeed kind.

Gallifrey - not exactly known as a beacon of democracy even at the best of times - is still holding elections during this state of SERIOUS emergency?

Because they're not Daleks. The elections may have been a sham, but going through the motions would be a way of saying they weren't the slaves of a power-mad tyrant, unlike the Daleks, so right was on their side.

yeah, I SO didn't get that impression during the Hartnell era...OR whenever I see anyone ELSE'S TARDIS.

The Doctor does have a rather creative interpretation of the truth at times.

Shouldn't a Time Lord agent KNOW that the Doctor's Companion Compassion will breed the next generation of TARDISes? I mean, isn't it a pretty important piece of history?

Weren't they trying to suppress all knowledge of the Doctor though, in case it gave people ideas. Start editing your own history books, and its easy to lose vital information by mistake.

'Gallifreyans could, traditionally, name over thirty different types of culture shock.' - Lovely idea, but I've never seen a Time Lord suffer from culture shock

Clearly, it's a new tradition, or possibly a revived one. The Time War was certainly big enough to shake Gallifreyan culture out of its rut.

It definitely implied that there had been culture-shock pre-War but now that they were out in the universe, fighting in different bodies every time, it was a lot worse. Do you think they invented the pre-War culture shock to make themselves feel better, or are there Gallifreyan asylums full of gibbering pre-War Time Lords who made the mistake of taking a day-trip to the Eye of Orion or something?

'It was time-looped for the best of reasons, and time-looped it must remain' - weren't you yelling about it being CRIMINAL!!! in Image of the Fendahl?

But that was before he had the Vardans timelooped. Maybe he learnt a little more about the law in between.

Or maybe he just became a total hypocrite some time between Image and Invasion.

is THAT what the Time Lords think they've been doing - KINDLY PATRONAGE?

But of course. They could have declared themselves a race of god-kings - mile high statues on every planet, legions of slaves singing hymns to their glory, their enemies thrown into artificial hells - but instead they chose to tread lightly on the universe

I dunno if they CHOSE that, exactly. They TRIED the god-king way and discovered that even total losers like the Minyans made mincemeat out of them.

leaving its peoples free to make their own mistakes

Letting them get slaughtered in their billions, you mean. Sitting and watching, the way we did over Rwanda.

and intervening only when the 'lesser' races tamper with technologies dangerous beyond their comprehension.

Or when they risked getting their own versions of time-travel (Two Docs) or longevity (Mindwarp) that the Time Lords greedily and hypocritically wanted to keep for themselves.

Compared to what the Racnoss and many others would have been like, had they become the Lords of Time, the Gallifreyans are indeed kind.

Well, yes, the Time Lords didn't wake up wanting to eat entire planets for breakfast, but that just makes it even MORE unforgiveable when they drag Earth across the galaxy or try to destroy the universe or whatever.

Gallifrey - not exactly known as a beacon of democracy even at the best of times - is still holding elections during this state of SERIOUS emergency?

Because they're not Daleks. The elections may have been a sham, but going through the motions would be a way of saying they weren't the slaves of a power-mad tyrant, unlike the Daleks, so right was on their side.

But in World War Two WE didn't need elections to prove that Churchill wasn't a power-mad tyrant.

The Doctor does have a rather creative interpretation of the truth at times.

Yeah, but a) I just can't get my head around the 'Doctor lies' idea, and b) he WAS communicating telepathically with some TARDISes at the time he made that bizarre claim, lying would have been SERIOUSLY stupid. Especially when the truth - Sexy bloody goes where she wants to - would be so much more convincing.

Weren't they trying to suppress all knowledge of the Doctor though, in case it gave people ideas.

Only the fictional accounts of 'Doctor ? in an Exciting Adventure with the Enemy'.

Start editing your own history books, and its easy to lose vital information by mistake.

True, but there was a MASSIVE search across time n'space by the Time Lords - Compassion was their Number One Priority. How could Homunculette not have NOTICED it? He's a top Time Lord agent, one who's MET the Doctor, one entrusted with the vital job of bidding on the Doctor's CORPSE, one with Compassion's daughter as his TARDIS. I - and, more to the point, his TARDIS Marie - expect him to be able to add up two and two.

Do you think they invented the pre-War culture shock to make themselves feel better

Quite likely.

They TRIED the god-king way and discovered that even total losers like the Minyans made mincemeat out of them.

Surely, they gave up on it because the Minyans blew themselves up, and the Time Lords felt responsible for the catastrophe, showing a glimmering of ethics.

Letting them get slaughtered in their billions, you mean. Sitting and watching, the way we did over Rwanda.

If they'd stopped that, no one would thank them, because no one would believe them. Instead, the entire universe would resent their 'crushing oppression'. It'd be like Africa, pre-decolonisation, fondly imagining that once the imperial powers left, they could build utopia, when in fact they just ended up producing home-grown tyrants, some of them even worse than the old Empires.

Or when they risked getting their own versions of time-travel (Two Docs) or longevity (Mindwarp) that the Time Lords greedily and hypocritically wanted to keep for themselves.

Proper time travel can create universe destroying paradoxes, and stealing bodies is deeply unethical. Suppressing those technologies is defensible.

But in World War Two WE didn't need elections to prove that Churchill wasn't a power-mad tyrant.

We had a general election before the war ended, and council elections throughout.

True, but there was a MASSIVE search across time n'space by the Time Lords - Compassion was their Number One Priority. How could Homunculette not have NOTICED it?

Perhaps Compassion wasn't, at that time. Once she became a Tardis, she had always been going to become a Tardis, but before she transformed she had been going to remain human until she got turned into a cyberman at the age of 47. In essence, part of the history of the Time War got rewritten.

Surely, they gave up on it because the Minyans blew themselves up, and the Time Lords felt responsible for the catastrophe, showing a glimmering of ethics.

You're so sweet! Personally I feel it was the utter humiliation of being kicked off Minyos that make 'em decide 'Never again'.

If they'd stopped that, no one would thank them, because no one would believe them. Instead, the entire universe would resent their 'crushing oppression'. It'd be like Africa, pre-decolonisation, fondly imagining that once the imperial powers left, they could build utopia, when in fact they just ended up producing home-grown tyrants, some of them even worse than the old Empires.

No one ever screams NEO-COLONIALIST! at the Doctor. (Well, except in that Moffat Decalog short story. And maybe Waters of Mars.) They should have ENCOURAGED him and the one-third of their population inclined to go renegade to get involved righting wrongs in universal affairs. Just give 'em a grounding in ethics and recognising fixed points first. And maybe a bit of supervision.

Proper time travel can create universe destroying paradoxes

They MAY have had a genuine argument that Dastari's experiments were a risk to the universe, but on the other hand I don't blame him for being so suspicious. The Time Lords wanted to hang on to their monopoly ('My people are very keen to stamp out unlicenced time travel' - Time Warrior) they just weren't very GOOD at it.

and stealing bodies is deeply unethical.

Yeah, like zoos, apparently, but frankly WHO CARES? A few extra dead people here and there isn't gonna rip a hole in the fabric of the universe.

Suppressing those technologies is defensible.

Yeah - if you're interventionist. The Time Lords claim not to be, which is why they should pick their battles really carefully, as in Genesis of the Daleks (even if RTG claims THAT started the Time War), or even Brain of Morbius (since it WAS a Time Lord causing the problems - oh wait, maybe they hadn't even REALISED that and just sent the Doctor to pick 'em up some Elixir?). A few animals happily stuck in a Miniscope or even a few people killed for their bodies is pretty small-scale.

We had a general election before the war ended, and council elections throughout.

Oh yeah, I didn't register that the election happened before VJ Day. But definitely after VE Day, and it had taken TEN YEARS to get round to it. That would be like a MILLENNIA for Time Lords.

True, but there was a MASSIVE search across time n'space by the Time Lords - Compassion was their Number One Priority. How could Homunculette not have NOTICED it?

Perhaps Compassion wasn't, at that time. Once she became a Tardis, she had always been going to become a Tardis, but before she transformed she had been going to remain human until she got turned into a cyberman at the age of 47. In essence, part of the history of the Time War got rewritten.

Nice try, but as far back as Alien Bodies Homunculette was definitely from a timeline that included Compassion-bred TARDISes - he had one of his own, after all. And the EDAs did quite a good job of subtly leading up to the transformation - it was DEFINITELY gonna happen by the time of Taking of Planet 5.

They should have ENCOURAGED him and the one-third of their population inclined to go renegade to get involved righting wrongs in universal affairs.

Which is exactly what they did with the Doctor, once they caught him. They told him Earth would be having a lot of problems with aliens, then put him in their path - a pretty strong hint he should fight them - and they were obviously encouraging him to stop the Master too

You might argue they should have just told him what they wanted, but the Doctor doesn't like being given orders, nor does any renegade. Try telling them to go righting wrongs, and many of the renegades would go wronging rights, just to be contrary.

The Time Lords wanted to hang on to their monopoly ('My people are very keen to stamp out unlicenced time travel' - Time Warrior)

True, but the question is why? If it was because they enjoyed having the power all to themselves, surely they'd have used it a lot more. No, it makes more sense if, apart from the power-mad traitors on the high council, they were more interested in keeping it from being abused.

Ripping holes in the universe isn't the only potential problem with time travel either. Imagine if every defeated dictator could copy Magnus Greel. It wouldn't destroy the universe, but it's still not a pleasant picture.

frankly WHO CARES? A few extra dead people here and there isn't gonna rip a hole in the fabric of the universe.

Nor are a few tortured kittens, but I'm sure we'd both agree that's no reason for ignoring them.

The Time Lords are mostly non-interventionist, but it seems there are a few things they find so offensive even they take action. Admittedly, they didn't exactly shrink back in horror when the Master turned up on Gallifrey wearing a stolen body, but perhaps he hypnotised them into not noticing.

But definitely after VE Day, and it had taken TEN YEARS to get round to it. That would be like a MILLENNIA for Time Lords.

And how long did the Time War last, for Gallifrey?

Anyway, most people were pretty sure that Churchill wasn't a power mad tyrant, even without elections, and there were plenty of checks and balances to restrain him if he got ideas. The Time Lords wouldn't have had the same confidence in the good intentions of their leadership given their recent history, especially if notorious renegades were being recalled, so they would have needed the reassurance of regular elections.

Nice try, but as far back as Alien Bodies Homunculette was definitely from a timeline that included Compassion-bred TARDISes

I'll try again then. Maybe Homunculette had his memory wiped of certain key facts so the Celestis agents couldn't extract them from his mind.

They should have ENCOURAGED him and the one-third of their population inclined to go renegade to get involved righting wrongs in universal affairs.

Which is exactly what they did with the Doctor, once they caught him.

Yeah - AFTER they MURDERED him AND stole his memories! GITS!

they were obviously encouraging him to stop the Master too

Yeah - why the hell can't the Time Lords at least clean up their OWN messes, viz, arrest their own renegades? They didn't put out a warrant for the Master even after he wiped out half the universe!

You might argue they should have just told him what they wanted, but the Doctor doesn't like being given orders, nor does any renegade. Try telling them to go righting wrongs, and many of the renegades would go wronging rights, just to be contrary.

Not if they were trained properly, from childhood. The Master was once the Doctor's best friend, for heaven's sake - one moral push and promise of adventure at the right moment and his brilliance and sense of mischief - plus the Monk's, Rani's, etc etc - could have been harnessed for the universe's benefit.

The Time Lords wanted to hang on to their monopoly ('My people are very keen to stamp out unlicenced time travel' - Time Warrior)

True, but the question is why? If it was because they enjoyed having the power all to themselves, surely they'd have used it a lot more.

Never read the parable of the dog in the manger?

No, it makes more sense if, apart from the power-mad traitors on the high council, they were more interested in keeping it from being abused.

Ye-eess, I'll think about trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. I mean, they did heroically destroy Giant Vampires and stuff, even if the EDAs revealed that they were the ones who RELEASED said Giant Vampires in the first place...

But they're just such KILLJOYS. They want our Doctor to stay home and bore the hell out of us like in Infinity Doctors...so you can't blame me for FEELING that they're killjoys trying to rob the rest of the universe of the supreme joy of travelling in time even though logically speaking it's the sensible thing to do. The Doctor's policy of non-interference in other people's time-experiments in Transit cost the universe dear.

Admittedly, they didn't exactly shrink back in horror when the Master turned up on Gallifrey wearing a stolen body, but perhaps he hypnotised them into not noticing.

As if he'd bother! He looked positively flattered when they started calling him one of the most evil beings the Time Lord race had ever produced...

And how long did the Time War last, for Gallifrey?

•••• knows.

The Book of the War covered its first fifty years.

Alien Bodies gave me the feeling it had gone on far longer than fifty years.

Ancestor Cell cut it SERIOUSLY short.

The Time Lords wouldn't have had the same confidence in the good intentions of their leadership given their recent history

Depends how much they KNEW of their recent history. No doubt it had all been rewritten to make Goth, Borusa and even Kellner heroes...

especially if notorious renegades were being recalled, so they would have needed the reassurance of regular elections.

Actually the renegades' return would have been an excellent excuse to abolish elections. Book of the War hints that the War King is, in fact, the Master, and the Celesti's Agent One was thinking he could nip back to Gallifrey and win an election easily (which is what STARTED this conversation)...it would have been incredibly easy for a charismatic genocidal maniac to persuade the Time Lords that they'd only win the War with a leader who'd spent a few centuries exploring the universe, meeting exciting, unusual people and killing them.

Plus, Time Lords weren't remotely reassured by Presidents chopping n'changing every couple of centuries (Deadly Assassin) and only seemed to hold elections when a President got gunned down without naming his successor...

Maybe Homunculette had his memory wiped of certain key facts so the Celestis agents couldn't extract them from his mind.

I didn't get the impression the Time Lords were expecting any Celestis agents. Which was pretty stupid of them, though of course the ENTIRE POINT of the CIA becoming the Celestis was to get the HELL out of that universe, utterly and literally.

Yeah - why the hell can't the Time Lords at least clean up their OWN messes, viz, arrest their own renegades?

Because all the Time Lords competent enough to do that are either out wandering the universe, or too busy playing politics on Gallifrey.

Never read the parable of the dog in the manger?

The dog was using the manger though. Think of all the power-mad maniacs we've seen: Sutekh, the Master, Davros. How many of them would be satisfied with just having power, but not using it?

Depends how much they KNEW of their recent history. No doubt it had all been rewritten to make Goth, Borusa and even Kellner heroes...

The truth would survive underground, as with the Doctor's adventures. With no free press, and only nominal democracy, Gallifrey seems ripe for conspiracy theories - President Borusa was actually a robot double, controlled by a clone of Goth, created by the Rani, who is currently disguised as Romana, etc.

Plus, Time Lords weren't remotely reassured by Presidents chopping n'changing every couple of centuries (Deadly Assassin) and only seemed to hold elections when a President got gunned down without naming his successor...

True. Perhaps that's what Agent One was planning on doing. With their President dead, he'd expect them to fall back on ancient protocol, and have an open election, though we now know they'd be as likely to wake Rassilon up instead.

I didn't get the impression the Time Lords were expecting any Celestis agents.

Homunculette wasn't, but keeping agents in the dark is pretty common practice. Tell them as little as possible, then send them out to lie for their country.

Because all the Time Lords competent enough to do that are either out wandering the universe, or too busy playing politics on Gallifrey.

You'd think arresting an Evil Renegade would HELP with the playing-politics. Didn't anyone ask why the only renegade they've ever managed to put on trial was the GOOD one who practically VOLUNTEERED to get caught?

Think of all the power-mad maniacs we've seen: Sutekh, the Master, Davros. How many of them would be satisfied with just having power, but not using it?

Personally I suspect the Master would be QUITE happy to play dressing-up games for all eternity, waiting for the Doctor to turn up, rather than actually USE his power.

The truth would survive underground, as with the Doctor's adventures.

Oh, I dunno - there weren't any 'Free Our Oncoming Storm!' placard-wavers at ANY of the Doctor's trials, or 'Welcome Home Theta!' fans at his inauguration. He's never been asked for a SINGLE autograph.

Perhaps that's what Agent One was planning on doing. With their President dead, he'd expect them to fall back on ancient protocol, and have an open election

Ah - that might make sense. In a SANE society you'd be unlikely to win the leadership by blatantly committing murder, but hey, it worked for the Doctor. And according to the EDAs didn't Romana win her presidency by duelling Flavia? I'm ASSUMING she didn't actually KILL her, though. (However the NAs - from whom the EDAs had the cheek to nick their Romana-returns-from-E-Space-and-becomes-President idea - made it clear Romana (extremely narrowly) won an election.)

though we now know they'd be as likely to wake Rassilon up instead.

I still can't BELIEVE that never occurred to the morons. (Alright, it never occurred to ME either pre-End of Time, but that's not the POINT.)

I didn't get the impression the Time Lords were expecting any Celestis agents.

Homunculette wasn't, but keeping agents in the dark is pretty common practice. Tell them as little as possible, then send them out to lie for their country.

But the entire Planet 5 mission disintegrated because no one was on the look-out for Celestis agents (well, that and that meddlesome Doctor turned up). So it's a pretty stupid policy. And I'm assuming most people KNEW the CIA had done a runner and become Celestis (the Time Lords are thick but not QUITE thick enough not to notice THAT) so not mentioning it was a bit pointless.

You'd think arresting an Evil Renegade would HELP with the playing-politics.

It would, if they didn't get killed. Staging elaborate conspiracies on Gallifrey is safer than going near the Master. Any Time Lord trying to make a name for themselves would go after the second rate evil renegades, exaggerating their crimes to make their capture seem more impressive.

Didn't anyone ask why the only renegade they've ever managed to put on trial was the GOOD one

He's the only one we've seen be put on trial, but we wouldn't have seen any trial the Doctor wasn't involved in, and he's not likely to stay on Gallifrey, just to watch some other renegade's trial.

The Time Lords had a prison planet, Shada, so they must have imprisoned people at some point, and I think some of those prisoners were Time Lords.

Oh, I dunno - there weren't any 'Free Our Oncoming Storm!' placard-wavers at ANY of the Doctor's trials

Naturally. That would have been unseemly, and the Time Lords on top are very keen on making sure everything looks orderly.

But the entire Planet 5 mission disintegrated because no one was on the look-out for Celestis agents (well, that and that meddlesome Doctor turned up). So it's a pretty stupid policy.

Stupid, but realistic. All the Time Lords on the High Council should be well aware that half their colleagues are likely to be traitors, of one kind or another, leading to rampant paranoia, which would cripple the war effort

All the Time Lords on the High Council should be well aware that half their colleagues are likely to be traitors, of one kind or another, leading to rampant paranoia

Considering that, it's amazing that a) Lord Presidents can remain in power for centuries and b) that the Time Lord civilization manages to accomplish anything at all.

Didn't anyone ask why the only renegade they've ever managed to put on trial was the GOOD one

He's the only one we've seen be put on trial, but we wouldn't have seen any trial the Doctor wasn't involved in, and he's not likely to stay on Gallifrey, just to watch some other renegade's trial.

The Time Lords had a prison planet, Shada, so they must have imprisoned people at some point, and I think some of those prisoners were Time Lords.

Oh. Yeah. Totally forgot about that. Also the fact that the War Chief had his trial at the same time as the Doctor's.

there weren't any 'Free Our Oncoming Storm!' placard-wavers at ANY of the Doctor's trials

Naturally. That would have been unseemly, and the Time Lords on top are very keen on making sure everything looks orderly.

The Shobogans weren't. And you'd think the Doctor would be a bloody LEGEND to any young (under-200-ish) Time Lords realising that they had several thousand years of tedium in front of them unless they followed in his footsteps (hell, even Romana I said she was 'actually prepared to be impressed' by him). SURELY if they'd got up a bit of a demo, even Maxil wouldn't have, well, SHOT them all?

Stupid, but realistic. All the Time Lords on the High Council should be well aware that half their colleagues are likely to be traitors, of one kind or another, leading to rampant paranoia, which would cripple the war effort

Oh, I don't know, I got the impression that the Time Lords really pulled together when the Time War arrived. They were obviously so touchingly convinced that patriotism would conquer all they even resurrected THE MASTER, for heaven's sake. And it kinda worked - he became their War King in the Faction universe, merely ran away rather than making another alliance with the Daleks in the REAL universe, and didn't do any harm in the EDAs...come to think of it why the hell can't I remember the Master EVER being mentioned in the EDAs in regard to the Time War? He even, Basil Fawty-like, omitted to mention the War when he turned up years later with a blue rosette.

Hmm...have just checked TARDIS Wiki and apparently 'Imprisoned inside the Doctor's TARDIS, the Master offered the Eighth Doctor advice through a portrait, a mirror and later the Eye of Harmony. (EDA: Sometime Never..., The Deadstone Memorial, The Gallifrey Chronicles) - again, all post-War stories.

Considering that, it's amazing that a) Lord Presidents can remain in power for centuries and b) that the Time Lord civilization manages to accomplish anything at all.

Though you'll note that Borusa seemed to regenerate every two minutes. And Time Lord civilisation hasn't really accomplished anything at all for the last few million years.

The Shobogans weren't.

But they were kept out of sight.

Oh, I don't know, I got the impression that the Time Lords really pulled together when the Time War arrived.

Apart from the CIA, who all deserted, and notice they didn't tell the Doctor they'd brought the Master back. Presumably, they didn't trust them to cooperate.

Though you'll note that Borusa seemed to regenerate every two minutes.

Assassination attempts, perhaps?

The Shobogans weren't.

But they were kept out of sight.

HOW? I'd like to see those pathetic Gallifreyan guards hold back a horde of spear-waving Shobogans if they really WANTED to get into the Capitol and express their feelings. Even the Best Castellan Ever, Spandrell, couldn't stop 'em from nipping in and shooting some light-fittings every now and then...

Oh, I don't know, I got the impression that the Time Lords really pulled together when the Time War arrived.

Apart from the CIA, who all deserted

Oh.

Yeah.

THEM.

Well, at least they didn't side with the Enemy or anything. Just scarpering all the way out of the universe was considered the worst imaginable treachery.

Though you'll note that Borusa seemed to regenerate every two minutes.

Assassination attempts, perhaps?

Yeah, I expect so. I mean, what ELSE could it be? A bloke who wanted immortality would hardly run through so many lives for FUN. And it's very well established that the same amount of time passes for Gallifrey as for the Doctor, i.e. he can't be dying of old age each time.

Assassination attempts, perhaps?

Yeah, I expect so. I mean, what ELSE could it be?

You would also expect a Gallifreyan assassin to know how to dispatch a Time Lord without giving him a chance to regenerate.

The assassins probably QUITE REASONABLY assumed that chopping someone's head off would do the trick, but (according to Shadows of Avalon) THEY were in for a big surprise...and if beheading doesn't work I can't imagine stabbing someone through both hearts does, whatever Infinity Doctor says...Though, of course, one shot from a staser offed the President in Deadly Assassin so what do I know...Look, I just wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of would-be assassins wandering around looking VERY CONFUSED.

HOW? I'd like to see those pathetic Gallifreyan guards hold back a horde of spear-waving Shobogans

Simply don't tell the Shobogans the Doctor is on trial, or even on the planet.

Just scarpering all the way out of the universe was considered the worst imaginable treachery.

Well, if half the High Council suspected the other of wanting to either copy the Celestis or claim supreme power, that would still create paranoia enough to explain Homunculette's ignorance.

.Though, of course, one shot from a staser offed the President in Deadly Assassin so what do I know.

Presumably, the staser was specially designed to suppress regeneration - pretty sensible technology for the Time Lords to develop. If the Rani descends on Gallifrey with an army of cat-people who worship her as their living god, and a bunch of biomorphic mines that will turn all other Time Lords into mice, the High Council will want to be able to kill her in one shot, rather than needing 12 to burn through her regenerations. They longer it takes to kill her, the more likely they are to end up squeaking.

Simply don't tell the Shobogans the Doctor is on trial, or even on the planet.

Oh yeah. I suppose if they stopped LEELA noticing during the many times the Doctor(s) dropped in (she's married to a Chancellory Guard, for heaven's sake!), it would be a doddle keeping the Shobogans in the dark. I suppose Tom wasn't exactly at his best when letting in Vardans and Sontarans and I shouldn't expect them to keep an eagle eye on the Capitol in case one day he came back, yes, he came back.

Presumably, the staser was specially designed to suppress regeneration - pretty sensible technology for the Time Lords to develop.

Actually I'd say that was pretty UNsensible technology for the Time Lords to develop, or at least to hand out to a bunch of dictatorial, grossly incompetent, cowardly and/or treacherous guards as they goose-step around the Capitol. Likewise, I've never understood why Cybermen carry guns capable of killing Cybermen when a lesser gun would do for the lesser species and would pose no danger to THEM. (Of course if they were better at hanging onto their own guns it wouldn't be so much of an issue.)

If the Rani descends on Gallifrey with an army of cat-people who worship her as their living god

Cats wouldn't DREAM of worshipping anyone but themselves! (Don't ask what 'Jehovah' and 'Santori' were in Gridlock. Hopefully 'Jehovah's just a swearword and 'Santori' is at least a feline.) Plus, the Rani's genetically-augmented mice MURDERED the President's cat!

and a bunch of biomorphic mines that will turn all other Time Lords into mice, the High Council will want to be able to kill her in one shot, rather than needing 12 to burn through her regenerations. The longer it takes to kill her, the more likely they are to end up squeaking.

Yes, but they're WAY too smug n'thick to even THINK of such a thing ever occurring.

Actually I'd say that was pretty UNsensible technology for the Time Lords to develop, or at least to hand out to a bunch of dictatorial, grossly incompetent, cowardly and/or treacherous guards

It would be sensible, if they could trust their guards, and that's an easy mistake to make. Time Lord politicians like Borusa are too arrogant to believe mere guards would attack them.

Cats wouldn't DREAM of worshipping anyone but themselves!

True cats wouldn't, but if the Rani has been warping their genes, giving them hands and bipedality, they're not true cats any longer.

Yes, but they're WAY too smug n'thick to even THINK of such a thing ever occurring.

Smug yes, but they're not that thick. They might not be imaginative enough to anticipate exactly what mad schemes the many renegades will come up with, but they do know what they're like.

Besides, as you've pointed out, one of the recent Presidents had a cat, demonstrating that he at least had decent judgement

Time Lord politicians like Borusa are too arrogant to believe mere guards would attack them.

Yeah, I s'pose they would be, in Deadly Assassin. By Invasion of Time, of course, a guard has the unbelievable cheek to put his hand on his staser when Borusa looks reluctant to come the instant the President summons him. (I'm sorry, I just can't picture a Parliamentary police officer whipping out a gun when a Cabinet Minister doesn't jump to obey David Cameron. (Or even Margaret Thatcher.) It's just not how we DO things in democracies.)

True cats wouldn't, but if the Rani has been warping their genes, giving them hands and bipedality, they're not true cats any longer.

WHAT! The Rani is sick but she's not THAT sick! No one would DREAM of -

- oh wait. Brannigan's got hands and bipedality, how DARE you imply that he's not a true oochie-coochie diddumsy-munchkin who - once the Doctor FINALLY arrives to whisk me off round time n'space - I am TOTALLY gonna insist we kidnap from New Earth to join us.

They might not be imaginative enough to anticipate exactly what mad schemes the many renegades will come up with, but they do know what they're like.

SPANDRELL has never heard of THE MASTER. They TOTALLY don't know what they're like.

(Come to think of it...how the HELL could such an effective Castellan NOT have heard of the Master? It was less than a century ago that he'd stolen a bloody Doomsday weapon, leaving a helpful 'Master Woz Ere' message so the thickos couldn't miss it...oh actually maybe that was just in the novelisation...well at least they were onto him SOMEHOW in Colony, and definitely kept a VERY sharp eye out in Terror.)

Besides, as you've pointed out, one of the recent Presidents had a cat, demonstrating that he at least had decent judgement

I realise Gallifrey is, in addition to its multiple other sins, a hotbed of chauvinism, but that's no reason to assume the unusually sane cat-lover was male. And s/he might not have been that recent, either: unless the Doctor got updates about his classmates' naughty activities whenever he popped back to save Gallifrey from invasion (and/or cause said invasion in the first place) the Rani probably got up to this sort of HORRIFIC mischief in the brief gap after they left the Academy and before they all nicked TARDISes and scarpered. Which would at least mean Gallifrey is SLIGHTLY slower at getting through Presidents than post-2005 Britain is at getting through Prime Ministers. Let me see, we've got:

Cat-lover: Doctor's youth
Then in a mere 200 years (Four was 750 in Deadly Assassin; Six was under 950 in Trial) we have:
Assassinated old guy: Deadly Assassin
Doctor: Deadly Assassin-sometime after Invasion of Time
Borusa II: sometime after IoT-sometime before Arc of Infinity
Borusa III: sometime after Arc-sometime before Five Doctors
Borusa IV: sometime before Five Docs to end of Five Docs
Doctor: End of Five Docs to sometime before Trial
??Flavia??: sometime before trial to end of Trial
??Inquisitor: post-Trial to ??
In the circumstances, you can't really blame 'em for digging up Rassilon. That guy had staying power, at least.

Yeah, I s'pose they would be, in Deadly Assassin

Which is sufficient. It only needs one long-serving President to give the guards Time Lord killing stasers, on the assumption they'd never be used against him. By the time a less naive president replaces him, the stasers would be unchangeable tradition.

- oh wait. Brannigan's got hands and bipedality, how DARE you imply that he's not a true oochie-coochie diddumsy-munchkin

Can he lick his own spine? Not that we saw. Cats should be cat shaped, with superhuman grace. Brannigan doesn't qualify.

how the HELL could such an effective Castellan NOT have heard of the Master?

Obviously, he was deliberately kept in the dark. He may even have been picked because he didn't know about the Master, so he couldn't ask awkward questions about the security lapses the Master exploited.

Cat-lover: Doctor's youth - Then in a mere 200 years (Four was 750 in Deadly Assassin; Six was under 950 in Trial) we have: Assassinated old guy: Deadly Assassin

Actually, the cat-lover might have been the President who got assassinated. The First Doctor was probably near 450 when he left Gallifrey (assuming Susan is roughly the age she looks, and they left Gallifrey together). Thus, if the assassinated president lasted at least 300 years, he's the cat-lover. Since there probably would have been comments if he'd only had a couple of centuries, that looks pretty likely.

Can he lick his own spine? Not that we saw. Cats should be cat shaped, with superhuman grace. Brannigan doesn't qualify.

Why are you SAYING all these HORRID things about DARLING BRANNIGAN? ALL cats should have Irish accents and a basketful of kittens! And OF COURSE he can lick his own spine if he feels like it!

Obviously, he was deliberately kept in the dark. He may even have been picked because he didn't know about the Master, so he couldn't ask awkward questions about the security lapses the Master exploited.

What in hell's name is the point of appointing a Castellan who doesn't ask awkward questions about security lapses?!

Actually, the cat-lover might have been the President who got assassinated.

Yeah, that'd make sense. Through the millennia, the Time Lords of Gallifrey led a life of peace and ordered calm, protected against all threats from lesser civilisations by their great cat-loving President...Or, I venture to speculate, by the CAT. The Doctor was definitely speaking from experience in Gridlock when he said every planet should be run by a cat. Then the poor diddums got eaten and the next thing you knew, Omega was draining their power, there was serious subsidence due to a plague of mice (well, that was the official story) and Sontarans and embarrassing bits of tin-foil were ALL OVER the Capitol.

The First Doctor was probably near 450 when he left Gallifrey (assuming Susan is roughly the age she looks, and they left Gallifrey together).

Let's not open THAT can of worms again...

What in hell's name is the point of appointing a Castellan who doesn't ask awkward questions about security lapses?!

If Spandrell had known about the Master, he'd have arrested any Time Lord who helped him steal the records, whether on purpose or through incompetence, and he'd have improved the security around the records. This would be rather inconvenient for all those High Councillors who like being able to secretly access the records for nefarious reasons of their own.

Thus, the corrupt councillors make sure the Castellan doesn''t know enough to start asking questions they don't want answered.

Why are you SAYING all these HORRID things about DARLING BRANNIGAN?

Because he's no true cat. If he was, the only thing he'd say to lesser races, like humans and Time Lords, would be "Feed me, pamper me, worship me," and he wouldn't even bother learning their language to say it in.

Through the millennia, the Time Lords of Gallifrey led a life of peace and ordered calm, protected against all threats from lesser civilisations by their great cat-loving President...

Presidents, plural, surely. Then some ambitious High Councillor arranged for the Rani to get a key to the presidential quarters, and some helpful hints on bypassing security. Just as planned, her mice slaughtered the poor cat, the High Councillor responsible became President, and the Rani was let off easy by the new regime, in return for her silence, explaining why she was allowed to take over a planet.

Forgot to mention, when the Rani killed the President's cat, the heartbroken Time Lord doubtless died of grief, leaving a vacancy.

This would be rather inconvenient for all those High Councillors who like being able to secretly access the records for nefarious reasons of their own.

You know what ELSE is really inconvenient for nefarious High Councillors? The Master popping in and half-destroying their planet. You'd think they'd see an efficient Castellan as the lesser of two evils.

Because he's no true cat. If he was, the only thing he'd say to lesser races, like humans and Time Lords, would be "Feed me, pamper me, worship me," and he wouldn't even bother learning their language to say it in.

We don't KNOW that everyone on New Earth wasn't speaking Cat-Language. And a True Cat wouldn't NEED to say all that 'pamper me' stuff as any sane human/Time Lord would be programmed to do WHATEVER Ickle Poppet wanted AUTOMATICALLY, at the first sight of its fluffy face. As, of course, happened with the Doctor. Brannigan even insisted that he was perfectly happy stuck in that car but the Doctor just knew he and his basketful of Beribboned Cuties should feel the grass beneath their paddy paws so OF COURSE he flew them to freedom. The Face of Boe gave his LIFE for this glorious cause. (Well, honestly, they can't possibly have done it for MARTHA JONES, she's just so BORING.)

Then some ambitious High Councillor arranged for the Rani to get a key to the presidential quarters, and some helpful hints on bypassing security.

Like the Rani would have needed the help of any of those High Council losers! Even the treacherous ones were pretty stupid.

when the Rani killed the President's cat, the heartbroken Time Lord doubtless died of grief, leaving a vacancy.

Nonsense, no self-respecting cat-lover would have died of grief BEFORE avenging the oochie's death, which would NOT have included the Rani getting her own TARDIS/planet/whatever.

Plus, surely if you die of a broken heart you just regenerate? It's not like it's a STASER.

You know what ELSE is really inconvenient for nefarious High Councillors? The Master popping in and half-destroying their planet

They're arrogant enough to believe they can use him.

And a True Cat wouldn't NEED to say all that 'pamper me' stuff as any sane human/Time Lord would be programmed to do WHATEVER Ickle Poppet wanted AUTOMATICALLY

True, and yet Brannigan found it necessary to speak. No True Cat would. With their every last whim taken care of, they'd have no need to speak to mere humans.

Nonsense, no self-respecting cat-lover would have died of grief BEFORE avenging the oochie's death

I have to disagree. If they were truly devoted, the thought of living even one second longer without their beloved would be unbearable.

Besides, as you rightly say, if the cat-loving President had survived, they would have wrecked a terrible vengeance on the Rani - such as being eaten alive by her own mice - and she doesn't act like someone who has been through that kind of ordeal.

Plus, surely if you die of a broken heart you just regenerate?

No, Time Lords can refuse to regenerate - as this book said, and the new series confirmed. Considering the risk of turning into someone who didn't care about cats, possibly even a dog-lover, I can easily see the cat-loving president spurning regeneration so they can join his beloved in death.

Of course, that would mean the cat lover wasn't the one who got assassinated, but I don't recall any hints they like cats.

and yet Brannigan found it necessary to speak. No True Cat would. With their every last whim taken care of, they'd have no need to speak to mere humans.

Brannigan doesn't NEED to speak to mere humans, he WANTS to. He MARRIED one of the creatures, for heaven's sake. I think you're seriously underestimating the amount of love those Superior Beings often have for their human playthings. I'm not saying they take a DOCTORISH view of us ('We must look like insects to you' 'I think you look like gods') but they're definitely FOND.

no self-respecting cat-lover would have died of grief BEFORE avenging the oochie's death

I have to disagree. If they were truly devoted, the thought of living even one second longer without their beloved would be unbearable.

Not when you've got OPTIONS. Not when, after ensuring the Rani is gnawed to an agonising death by her mice THIRTEEN TIMES OVER, you can ensure that she was never born in the first place, or just nip back in time and rescue the Precious, or at least clone it, or maybe pop into another universe to get THE SAME CAT. (Well, the Doc SAID the Time Lords did it ALL THE TIME pre-War.)

Time Lords can refuse to regenerate - as this book said, and the new series confirmed. Considering the risk of turning into someone who didn't care about cats, possibly even a dog-lover, I can easily see the cat-loving president spurning regeneration so they can join his beloved in death.

Don't be ridiculous. There would be NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER of any cat-lover turning into a dawg-lover. It's not like saying 'Fantastic' or liking bananas, you know. The cat-loving would be such an integral part of your biodata that even if things went hideously wrong and you turned into the Valeyard or Colin Baker or something, you would STILL LOVE CATS. (And if you're really really lucky...you might regenerate into one!)

Of course, that would mean the cat lover wasn't the one who got assassinated, but I don't recall any hints they like cats.

Yeah...the fact he had the sense to see through Goth implied he had SLIGHTLY more intelligence and good taste than the average Time Lord President, but that's not exactly definitive proof of liking cats.

Brannigan doesn't NEED to speak to mere humans, he WANTS to.

Which I can't see any cat doing. While they can be fond of us, they know they are immeasurably superior. We're not worth their time.

after ensuring the Rani is gnawed to an agonising death by her mice THIRTEEN TIMES OVER

Which the President almost certainly didn't do (not unless the Rani we know is a clone, or similar). That strongly suggests he wasn't in charge when the Rani was exiled, and most likely was dead.

It's not like saying 'Fantastic' or liking bananas, you know.

A cat lover who has just found the mutilated corpse of their beloved is hardly going to be thinking straight. Some, I will concede, my embark on a course of vengeance that will be remembered for ten million years, but others will clutch the still-cooling corpse to their chest and turn their face to the wall, abandoning all hope as they sink into true death, even though hope will never truly be dead while the Doctor lives.

the fact he had the sense to see through Goth implied he had SLIGHTLY more intelligence and good taste than the average Time Lord President, but that's not exactly definitive proof of liking cats

True. Now, if there were cat ornaments in his office before the Doctor redecorated, that would be slightly more suggestive. Not everyone with a dozen cute china kittens has a cat, or vice versa, but they do at least like the feline form.

While they can be fond of us, they know they are immeasurably superior. We're not worth their time.

Well, maybe the Preciouses don't waste their valuable time on YOU, but many's the Oochie who's happy to sit purring on MY lap and flexing their claws in an exquisitely painful manner for HOURS on end.

even though hope will never truly be dead while the Doctor lives

Though, let's face it, rescuing cats isn't really his thing (except in The Dying Days). He's more likely to have them ARRESTED.

many's the Oochie who's happy to sit purring on MY lap and flexing their claws in an exquisitely painful manner for HOURS on end.

The cats aren't doing that for you though; they're just using you for their amusement, as is their right. They're not in any way treating you as their equal - no human is worthy of that - which is quite unlike Brannigan's behaviour.

However, we do seem to have strayed just a little off topic. Brannigan might be better discussed on the Gridlock page.

Can't the Time Lords arrange to download maps into soldiers' heads without making them blind in one eye?

They seem perfectly capable of installing headcams in Time Lords without blinding 'em in the REAL (i.e. TV) Time War (The Last Day DVD extra), albeit with a few side-effects like confusing your speech centres and giving you hallucinations that definitely aren't premonitions, no sirree...

this mythical recognition sure as hell didn't work in, say, King's Demons.

Why should it? Biologically, the only Time Lord in that was the Doctor. The Master was merely a possessed Trakenite.

OK, to take another example: it didn't even work when TWO MASTERS encountered each other in World Enough and Time...

haaang on, so what DID happen to these pocket-Gallifreys when the others WERE all destroyed in Ancestor Cell?

Unknown, so far. Sooner or later, we'll doubtless get an explanation from some crazed author

Still waiting...

'Everyone knew there were aliens' - didn't you say earlier that the British ignored all alien invasions as hoaxes?

And even if YOU hadn't, there's plenty of other evidence to this effect, WHAT WILL IT TAKE!!

The Master was once the Doctor's best friend, for heaven's sake - one moral push and promise of adventure at the right moment and his brilliance and sense of mischief - plus the Monk's, Rani's, etc etc - could have been harnessed for the universe's benefit.

I think the fact it only took eighty-odd years stuck in a box to make the Master - AFTER s/he used to go round wiping out half the universe without batting an eyelid!* - decide to sacrifice her life to stand at the Doctor's side confirms the idea that s/he could have been diverted from the path of evil in the first place.

Cats wouldn't DREAM of worshipping anyone but themselves! (Don't ask what 'Jehovah' and 'Santori' were in Gridlock. Hopefully 'Jehovah's just a swearword and 'Santori' is at least a feline.)

Still can't BELIEVE Tales of New Earth didn't have the decency to justify its pointless existence by clarifying this point.

*Mind you, NEITHER DID THE DOCTOR. Gits.

the Borad gets his brains blown out

Not according to The Lucy Wilson Mysteries: The Ballad of the Borad and The Invisible Women he doesn't.