I have many, many questions about this mysterious race from the planet Gallifrey: their transformation into Lords of Time, the evolution of their TARDISes, their forthcoming wars with the Gods and the People, their distinct lack of females, their undemocratic political system, their tendency to produce renegades...but I'll start with something really simple:

Why are they so s t u p i d ?

This is the race who _forgot to switch on the force-field_ whilst locking up the Second Doctor, Jamie and Zoe.

Who were defeated by the Minyans, the Sontarans, the Master, Omega, a bunch of revolutionaries, and, least gloriously of all, by three pieces of tin foil.

Whose transduction barriers, upon which the defence of the entire planet depended, could be put out of action by a robot dog whose most noticeable feature is a tendency to break down every two minutes.

Who believed that the best means of interrogating suspects was torture. (OK, so they did produce a mind probe, but judging by the innocent Castellan's reaction, it wasn't a very good one.)

Whose best equipment was dismissed by the Doctor as obsolete junk.

Who actually tried to execute the Doctor on three different occasions...get real! How long would the universe last without him?

Are the Time Lords superior to us in any way? Or do they just have the benefit of an extra few million years experience?

Think about people in power on Earth... then think about how much power the Time Lords have - governments, regimes, monarchies and so on are renowned for doing s t u p i d things, the Time Lords just do these s t u p i d things on a much grander scale.

Actually, this brings up a point I tried to make in the past. The Timelords are Human. Or at least human after millenia of evolution, accidental or otherwise. This would solve all the major faults of them. Since they are only Human, they would have Human faults. Lets use America (USA) as an example, since it is the only superpower at this moment.
1. Okay, we Americans (as the rest of the world) have more females than males. Not a good example.
2. The battles against their God (though the Christian right may argue), and development of Tardises (I wish!) never happen. Also not a good example.
3. The war against their own people, however, sounds VERY familiar. Those dead at Kent State, or Waco can vibe to this, as well as the minorities that in the recent past were killed quite frequently, because they were allowed. Need I mention the Native Americans who were slaughtered, or the African Americans who were lynched due to mob rule in the South, etc.etc. Fortunately, we have gotten better about that. Somewhat, anyhow.
4. We have a two party system, only one more than the old Soviet Union. So all voices are NOT represented in our Government. The Reform party is trying to change that, but lets face it, they are not much of a force of change in our politics.
5. Americans can be very ZTUPID at times. Our Senate just turn down the International Test Ban Treaty. Anti Abortionists, in the guise of saving lives, kill Doctors. Our poor have little access to homes or medical care. Our Government seems to be enamoured with a "Star Wars" defence system even though it has never been proven to work anytime in the near future if at all. We elected Nixon, Reagan, and Bush (sorry for fellow Americans, but I am a little anti Republican so maybe I am a little biased).
6. We don't have a force field, but we do have advanced nuclear technology, which we gave to the Chinese. Not exactly a brilliant notion. And I can thank the Democrats for that one.
7. We were defeated by the Vietmanese, who technology wise, was far inferior to American technology even with the Soviet help. Which goes to show that technology is not everything in a war.
8. We don't have a transduction barrier, but our defence computers seem to be hacked all the time by teenagers in other countries.
9. While USA does not condone torture, many of its allies did. Should I mention Chile, Pre Ayotolluh Iran, El Salvador, Honduras, Philipines, Indonesia, Guatemala, and currently Colombia?
10. Okay, our 'junk' is the best in the world, with the possible exeption of Japanese 'junk'. Not a good comparison.
11. We don't have a Doctor, so also not a good comparison.

All of these comparisons could be made with any major power, not just USA. I believe USA is one of the best countries to live in, but it does have its faults (I wouldn't mind living in Holland actually). I just pick on USA because I am American, and I know it best. But Victorian Britain, Soviet Union, Spanish Empire of the middle ages, the Holy Roman Empire, the Roman Empire, the Turkish empire, the Mongol Empire, the Aztec Empire, etc, etc. can all compare with the Timelords.

Hence, the Timelords are Human.

I think may have suggested somewhere else, too, that Earth some day becomes Gallifrey.

It's possible. They did move Earth to a new location in the Trial of the Timelords, and then mysteriously hushed it up. It was not explained, or not clearly explained, why they did that. Maybe it was a trial run for a future move. Or a more convenient place for a large construction project. Who knows, maybe they will build a Tardis large enough to emcompass the Earth and move it back in time so that the Timelords can claim they are the oldest civilization in the Universe. This would require certain famous timelord engineers and scientists. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Doctor would become involved in the project. May explain why the Doctor became so mysterious in his seventh incarnation. He was finally clued in on the great project. Or had his memory refreshed. Why was the Doctor#1 hanging around in Totter's lane in the first place?
It was supposedly a solar flare that wiped out much of Earth's population, or was it the result of the move? I can't remember. Still, Gallifrey has more than enough solar engineers to emulate this event. Hmmm, certainly Gallifrey wouldn't wipe out millions or billions of Earth's population just to move a planet? Nah.

On another post, I proposed that the Earth is merely an extension of The Death Zone. Prisoners are sent there to prove their mettle. If proved worthy, they are carted off on errands etc. Now, what if the Earth is overrun with Doctors, all under our noses. And what if these Doctors, with their Time Lord qualities, got a bit restless, banded together and, like the Axons or Autons, moved to take over the world in our future. Very X-Files, but who knows?

Compare this with England and the first use 'we' made of Australia as a prison colony. Now look, some decades later, at how profound and immense Australia is now. This could, if we jiggle about the facts a bit, makes the Silurians the Aborigines...

Except Australia isn't sealed off from the rest of the world, like the Death Zone is from Gallifrey.

In the 1780s, it may as well have been. If the only way to reach the Death Zone was by an 'open-ended transmat system', and the only way to reach Australia was by ship, then they are in essence very similar in their isolation.

I'd like to make it clear at this point, (very clear, in fact), that I do not believe Australia to be like the Death Zone. Not one bit. Unless there are some Raston Warrior Antipodeans, in which case...

No, the Death Zone looks like Wales (and the Eye of Orion).
Actually, open-ended transmat wasn't the only way to reach the Death Zone - the Timescoop was another way and so was the fifth Doctor's TARDIS because he set the coordinates for his former selves before he collapsed.

RE: Tendancy to produce renegades.

Let's count up the ones we know about: There's the Doctor, the Master, the Monk, Omega(?), and Rani (there are probably a few I missed). Unless there's an episode where the population of Gallifrey is mentioned, at a conservative estimate, I would guess there are several hundred thousand. Compare that to about ten or twenty renegades (assuming a few more we don't know about), and there really aren't a whole lot. We notice these renegades because they lead more interesting lives. Do you really think that people would tune in every week to watch the exploits of Joe Q. Time Lord, Janitor of the Pyrodonian Academy? Probably not.

Hey, it would be better than watching nothing, which is what we're getting now. :-)

Also, let's add Borusa and Goth to your list. (Or are they just traitors, not renegades?)

What about the Outsiders of Time in The Invasion Of Time? Would they be considered renegades?
Borusa turned renegade. Professor Edgeworth in The Twin Dilemma? Ruath in Goth Opera. Goth in The Deadly Assasin. The War Chief from The War Games. Chronotis in Shada. Does Romana count for not returning to Gallifrey when ordered to? Weren't there another three in Blood Harvest using the Timescoop? Drax in The Armageddon Factor. Hedin in Arc Of Infinity.
Do the Doctor and the Valeyard count as one?

I’m not convinced that Gallifrey is a future Earth (though it has frequently been mentioned that they’re remarkably similar). Several books have mentioned that Gallifrey is the first planet in this galaxy where life evolved. I suppose Earth could get towed to the centre of the galaxy and back through time to the beginning of the galaxy, but I don’t see any humans (assuming they survived this process) evolving into Time Lords. It would be quite obvious if there was a paradox like that in Time Lord history (as it was with Tractite history in Genocide). And the Time Lords know how they evolved – I remember the Doctor mentioning that it wasn’t from something embarrassing like monkeys.

Is it the History of the Universe that says the Time Lords died out long before life on Earth, and that most adventures are set in Gallifrey’s far future? I’m a bit puzzled as to why that should be the case, though it would help to explain why the Doctor wasn’t supposed to land on Frontios. Since Plantagenet and co didn’t seem to have evolved at all – they still looked and acted like humans – it can’t be THAT far into our future, and I never understood why the TARDIS, which happily skipped billions of years, wasn’t supposed to go there. But if he was way into the future already, Frontios’s time might have been going that little bit too far.

Luiner, I’m prepared to bet the Time Lords would be quite happy wiping out the entire population of a planet. It’s better than timelooping them, in my opinion. By the way, the Doctor was hanging round in Totter’s Lane because he was unwittingly following in the footsteps of a previous renegade – one I M Foreman (see Interference).

PJW, I very much doubt there are thousands of Doctors running around Earth (if only!) But the Time Lords aren’t the only ones using it as a prison – we’re probably overrun with weird Trion schoolkids who refuse to join the CCF, but they’re not as noticeable as Doctors would be.

Gordon, get in touch with the BBC at once! They may be reluctant to air more Doctor Who adventures, but once they hear about Joe Q Time Lord, they’ll be begging for the right to make TV series, movies, books, T-shirts, computer games and pin-ball machines featuring him.

Add all the above renegades to the fact that, according to the Infinity Doctors, there are only 1000 Time Lords (plenty more Gallifreyans, of course) then between 1 and 2% of the supposedly staid Time Lord hierarchy is in rebellion.

Hmm. Let's see, Adventure 1: Joe Q Time Lord discovers Cybermen lurking in the Academy's plumbing system (I haven't thought up why). He defeats them with the aid of his sonic mop.

Adventure 2: The creators of the Space Quest line of computer games sue the BBC over Joe Q. Time Lord, claiming plagairism due to the overwhelming similarities between Joe Q. and Roger Wilco.

Actually, I think Doctor Who references might have made their way into several of the Space Quest games. At least none of the Doctors have ever worn a blonde wig and black minidress in a blatant attempt to steal money.

Maybe the Earth/Gallifrey thing is forbidden knowledge? So what the Doctor knows of Time Lord evolution is simply something that is learned by rote at the Academy - an accepted theory but necessarily fact.
Is the fact the Doctor is half-human the only evidence we've seen of interspecies breeding in Doctor Who (aside from Billy and Delta in Delta and the Bannermen)? On screen, at least. I'm sure the books have gone to town with this one.

Viewing this whole Earthling/Gallifreyan thing from a new angle: What is a Time Lord? Simply a person with two hearts, able to shed bodies and traverse time and space. Future genetics could account for the first two, technology the third. Are they that different from us as an actual species? Wasn't there an advancement in cardio development recently when a guy was fitted with a back-up heart? Has time travel been proved to be a theoretic possiblity? Can't we grow ears on the backs of mice? (This has no connection with Time Lords, but have we seen Runcible naked?)

I think Joe Q Time Lord could be the most exciting thing since Absalom Daak. By the way, Gordon, what was written by your good self was Joe Q. Time Lord, Janitor of the PYROdonian Academy!

So, Adventure 3: Joe Q Time Lord, defender of the Rassilon Bucket, accidently sets fire to a council chamber and earns the respect of the entire acadmey. He can now use the Demat Bleach.

Don't forget - Time Lords also have telepathy.

Planet of the Spiders? We all have latent ESP.

So maybe when the Eighth Doctor claimed to be half human, what he really meant was that all Time Lords were half human, since Gallifrey evolved from Earth. The "on my mother's side" quip was just that--a quip. This line of thinking almost redeems the telemovie for me.

But neither the Doctor nor the Master can open the Eye of the Harmony? Do the eyes have to be fully human to open it?

I never understood why Time Lords designed their TARDISes with an energy source that can be opened by humans. That's not mentioned in any book, is it? I assumed it was a really bad plot device on FOX's part.

TARDISes?
TARDISi?

TARDI? Anyhoo...

Perhaps the Master used this as an excuse to get Chang Lee to do it. Perhaps he and the Doctor really can. Such a bright light might have repercussions on the Master in some way, and so he came up with a quick excuse. Perhaps after a regeneration/bodyswap, the eyes are still sensitive to harsh light. So he made up something to keep Chang Lee from asking too many dumb questions.

And the Doctor? Well, if we look at the scene where Grace has black eyes, the Doctor tells the Master that she can't do it because her eyes aren't human. This can be simply taken that humans can do it too, and that Time Lord and human eyes are v. similar. Which, cue drum roll, fits in nicely with the theory that Time Lords and humans are not, overall, that dissimilar at all. Yes, I like that theory. Even if the Time Lords are not descended/ascended from us, then they are remarkably similar.

From The Deadly Assassin.
"...and Rassilon journeyed into the black void. Within the void, no light would shine. And nothing of that outer nature continue in being, except that which existed within the Sash of Rassilon."
"Must be a black hole"
"What?"
"Shshshshsh..."
"Now Rassilon found the Eye of Harmony, which balances all things, that they may neither flux nor whither nor change their state in any measure. And he caused the Eye to be brought to the world of Gallifrey, where he sealed this benefincence with the Great Key."

Well you know the rest. It implies that the Eye of Harmony was not originally a Gallifreyen invention, which may explain why the Doctor and the Master can't open it. However the above came from a Timelord myth, and the Doctor had mentioned earlier his doubts of the accuracy of Timelord history (though that was in regard to the 'spin' Borusa developed to explain Goth's death in a better light for the people of Gallifrey). I suspect, however, Rassibaby developed a means to counteract the gravitional force of the nucleus of the black hole so it can be transported safely and well as tap into the awesome energies of said black hole. The Master used the Great Key to gain access to the Eye so he can manipulate it, while sheilded by the Sash. So, it is fairly easy to access the Eye. I guess the Timelords changed their security measures since then.
Doesn't explain why it is the Doctor's Tardis in the TV Movie, though. But it has been a long time since I seen that.

By the way, Goth looked remarkedbly similar to an unnamed Timelord in Wargames. I wonder why he hasn't regenerated since then.

He also looked rather similar to a Thal in Planet Of The Daleks.
The novels explain the Eye in the TARDIS is a link back to the main Eye of Harmony, from which it draws its power.
As for the Time Lords not being able to access the Eye: I can just see a race building machines with a power source they can't access if something goes wrong (bit like if we weren't able to open the petrol tank [gas tank to you Americans]).
The novels have the plural of TARDIS as TARDISes.

Arrgh! Those Cursed Novels!

Anyhoo, since it was stated that TARDISes' power came from a black hole (3 Doctors?) I kind of suspected that the Eye of Harmony in the telemovie was just a receptor of the real Eye's transmitter. Kind of reminds me of an old Nikola Tesla concept of transmitting electricity through the air, come to think of it. However, I don't call my electrical outlet The Oil Burning Power Plant. Or my telephone The Telecomunications Provider. But those Timelords are a strange bunch.

I have the answer, and it is 42!!!!!

No wait that's the wrong question. The question is why do the Time Lords have the collective intelligence of a blob of snot. The answer is Goof Gas.
Here's the reason. Less than a year before Doctor Who debuted, The Rocky and Bullwinkle Show had the Goof Gas Attack adventure. For those of you who, like Emily, are not familiar with Rocky and Bullwinkle, a brief summary. Fearless Leader decides that since the mean little country of Pottsylvania has nothing to export that other countries would want (like raw materials and finished goods), they'll export mean by declaring war on everybody else (not telling them, of course, or the other countries would win). So he sends regular bad guys Boris Badenov and Natasha Fatale with Goof Gas and use it on (of course) the good ol' U.S. of A. What Goof Gas does is made people mind-bogglingly idiotic. Only Bullwinkle is impervious to it (when you're at the bottom, there's no where to go but up).
What does this have to do with the Doctor? Simple. Before he took Ian and Barbara on a merry ride with him, he went to the universe of Rocky and Bullwinkle and traded for the recipe for Goof Gas by providing them with the dimension-warping technology of the Time Lords (this explains why Rocky and Bullwinkle's cabin has the exterior dimensions of an outhouse). He then uses it whenever he feels it necessary.

And he probably used it all up with Jo Grant.

Back to the Time Lord's stoopidity, why would they exile a traitor (the Rani) off their planet but give her free reign over the rest of the universe, supplying her with a TARDIS to boot?

Well, didn't they almost do the same with the Doctor - except his TARDIS didn't work for a while.
And did they give her the TARDIS or did she steal it?

It seems the Master's TARDIS rarely had a problem either. Yet, he has more freedom to move about the galaxy than the Doctor, especially the third one. Those Timelords are a strange bunch. They even drafted the Master to help the Doctor in the Five Doctors. I figured Romana would've been more helpful.

What gets me, though, is exactly what help the Master would have been in the Zone. I mean, Borusa wanted him as an adversary to hinder the Doctor, but surely the other Time Lords would have questioned why? All the Master could have really done is tell the Doctor that the Zone was being abused in some way. Which the Doctor would have already sussed from there being lots and lots of Cybermen.

Yes, they did the same thing with the Doctor, the Master, the Monk, the War Chief, etc. It's not exactly a testament to their superiority that they can't recall a few rogue TARDISes.

When a TARDIS is stolen, Galifrey apparently must cut off the TARDIS's connection to the Eye of Harmony. All of the above mentioned renegades, plus the Rani and who-knows-who-else, were able to find an alternate power source. The Master, for example, had to use a Dynomorphic Generator (cf. Timeflight) and later found another source on Xeraphas. Hartnel and Susan must have found another source somewhere, prior to doing whatever they were doing around Coal Hill School. But at some point, perhaps after The Three Doctors, the Time Lords reinstated the Doctor's connection to the Eye.

Which brings me to another point that suggests that the Timelords are playing Fifty-two Pickup with half a deck: why did they ever design the connections to the Eye that could only be opened by humans and not Time Lords?

So a time lord wouldn't start playing with it unnecessarly, perhaps?

Wasn't the Master sent to the Death Zone to help rescue the Doctors from any of the problems they may face there from all those Cybermen, Raston Warrior Robots, Yeti and Dalek? The Master does a good job of polishing off several Cybermen on that chessboard.

In "The Five Doctors", the Time Lords asked the Master to help; they didn't grab him out of time a la "The Trial of a Time Lord." In fact, TOATL shows that the Time Lords can summon a TARDIS anytime they want. The fact that they haven't recalled the Rani, Master, et all assumes that they don't want to.

I would guess that they are willing to let the Doctor do the dirty work, so that they won't be seen as interfering. Sounds risky, but it's worked so far.

If they can grab the Doctor's TARDIS anytime they wanted, how could the First and Second Doctors be on the run for all those years?

The answer is simple, Chris--they weren't. Since the Time Lords could contact the 1st and 2nd Doctor in "The Three Doctors", they must have known where they were. I can only think of one explanation for the 2nd Doctor's behavior in "The War Games"--since he was doing the contacting, he was making a public announcement of his whereabouts. The Time Lords' past contacts with the Doctors could be hushed up, but this very public affair had to be handled by the book. Of course, sneaky devils that they are, the Time Lords found a way to use the Doctor as their agent (this is the background for the theoretical Season 6B).

Alternately, the Time Lords had great difficulty tracking the first two Doctors because of the TARDIS' many faults. When they allowed the 3rd Doctor to roam freely, they must have also placed a sort of homing device in the TARDIS. This was used to steer the TARDIS towards events the Time Lords wanted controlled (see comments by the Doctor in "Brain of Morbius" and "Attack of the Cybermen"). Only after "The Trial of a Timelord" was this device removed.....allegedly.

I'm not quite sure about this asking-the-Master-to-help-the-Doctor business, either. Borusa said that he was against it, and that he was reluctantly going along with the rest of the High Council. Yet later he claimed that 'I gave you an old enemy to defeat' - implying that it was all his idea and he'd manipulated the High Council. So why did he want yet another enemy for the Doctor in the Death Zone? Weren't there more than enough monsters already, who might have prevented Our Hero from getting to the Tower and doing Borusa's dirty work for him? Admittedly, going on the Master's past history, he's unlikely to harm the Doctor, but still...

Weren't Borusa's initial comments simply for show in front of the High Council members? - he probably brought up the emergency clause in passing on left a book open on the Castellan's desk so the others would invoke it.

The Reason humans can open the Eye of Harmony:

Fingerprints are stored on police computers not as bitmaps of a scanned print but as a vectored network relating to each fingerprint's particular traits or peculiarities. The same is probably true with the retinal profile held by the TARDIS. If the Doctor's eye is half human (for whatever reason) the differences that set it apart from other Gallifreyan eyes could be those traits shared by all humans and therefore identical to the vectored ap held by the TARDIS.

Chris, I agree that Borusa's claims to be reluctant to involve the Master were for show - but that still leaves the question of WHY he wanted the Master, not to mention dozens of cybermen, wondering round the Death Zone making it difficult for the Doctor to reach the Dark Tower and do Borusa's dirty work for him. I suppose he had to have some monsters to justify sending for the Doc in the first place, but he went a bit OTT (not that I'm complaining).

Back to the subject of Joe Q. Time Lord, I've just had a fairly brilliant idea for a Java game starring him. However, I don't know diddly-squat about Java and wouldn't be able to do it. Anyone?

Emily, wasn't it because the prize in the Dark Tower could only be gained after someone had survived the insurmountable odds in the Death Zone - Borusa put all the enemies there and got the Doctors to act as his servants in overcoming those odds so he could step in and claim what he thought was victory at the end?

But why bother? He could easily snip off to the Dark Tower without the Doctors and Monsters in the way if he wanted to. Unless he designed the whole incident to distract the other Timelords. Either that or he wanted the Doctors to trigger the booby traps that might have been left behind by Rassy Baby.

The way I saw it is that Rassilon would not activate or project himself unless all those odds had been overcome - bit like a computer game - you can't get the to the end/grand reward without playing the game first. The Doctors played the game on behalf of Borusa - think of him suddenly taking over the computer game right at the end bit. Everything that needed to be achieved has been and Borusa claims victory at the end.

Luiner, maybe those bolts of lightning were active even when the Death Zone was shut down, so Borusa was scared to go in himself? Or maybe he just had agoraphobia after spending centuries in the Capitol.

Chris - having to overcome all the odds doesn't matter unless Rassilon KNEW they'd been overcome, and if he knew that much he'd know that the Doctors weren't really Borusa's servants.

Rassilon seems fairly omnipotent here so I think he knew the odds had been overcome and, given it was a trap for madmen, Rassilon probably knew the Doctors weren't Borusa's servants but didn't let on so he could see how badly Borusa wanted immortality - and then gave it to him.

I agree that Rassilon knew the Doctors weren't Borusa's servants. But I'm looking at it from Borusa's point of view - while he was plotting it all, did he think, 'Hey, Rassilon will know if I had it too easy, so *sigh* I'll just have to import some yeti, daleks, cybermen, raston warrior robots - and why not throw the Master in too! - so that the Doctors can bravely overcome them all. Then I'll stroll in and tell the Legendary Founder of Time Lord Civilisation that the Docs are really my servants - I'm sure they won't contradict me - and hey presto! Immortality is mine, all mine! Nothing in ze vorld...'

Good point - it's surprising Borusa didn't cotton on to this when the First Doctor actually agreed he was Borusa's servant. Quite suspicious when the others are saying they aren't.

I think you're all missing an important plot point: Borusa couldn't TARDIS into the Tower until the Doctors contacted the 5th Doctor, told him where they were, and turned off the force field surrounding the Tower.

But he didn't TARDIS in there, did he? I thought it was another transmat.

Chris, that "First Doctor" in The Five Doctors (and why do they call it that when there was only four?) was an obvious imposter.

There was five, the fourth was trapped in a time eddy.
Given everybody's hatred of Hurndall trying to recreate Hartnell's role, it's easy to see why they introduced regeneration so Troughton could get away with a complete new personality - if they decided to just recast the role and have someone just carrying on as Hartnell's persona, it wouldn't have worked.

Oops, Chris. I got plotlines mixed up. The 3rd Doctor turned off something in the Tower, which allowed his/their TARDIS to materialize in the Tower. Then Borusa was able to transmat over, with the hypnotized 5th Doctor.

I guess whatever can stop a TARDIS can easily stop a measley old transmat.

I thought Hurndall did a pretty good job as the First. I suspect I am in the minority.

No, I'm with you Luiner - he was my first introduction to the First Doctor.
Hurndall based his performance on his memories of Hartnell and while he managed to the irascible/grumpy aspect, he didn't add the little smiles and twinkles in the eye.

Or forget his lines. Bless ..

Shadows of Avalon has come up with a partial explanation for why so many members of the High Council are homicidal meglamanics. Romana says that when you're President and you regenerate, 'You become someone for whom the job is literally everything. It's beastly.' Hmm...

Re: lack of female Time Lords (Time Ladies?)
The reason is that all that stuff about the Loom is a load of rot (I'm assuming that the Loom is only in the novels and I take anything in the novels with a grain of salt). Time Lords come from axlotl tanks. And this explains where all the females are. This also explains about regeneration. The later Doctors are in fact gholas.

So Time Lords are amphibians? Was the snake-like Master we saw in the telemovie actually an axlotl who was allowed to mature into a salamander?

There is in fact no good reason there aren't more Time ladies. Mainly, since most of the writers were male, most of the Time People were male. Sad but probably true. Oh well.

Am I the only one who thinks that Time Lords or Ladies or whatever come from procreation (you know - sex)? No matter what the novels say, sex is the most efficient and cost effective (ie cheap) way of reproducing the species. It may not give the most desirable result in the progeny, but it is a lot more fun.

As far as the Master...he did find a way of continuing on with life after his ultimate regeneration and no telling what his true form ended up being. That dude just cannot accept death as long as there are planets to conquer and Doctors to beat.

Chris, I'm assuming that either you're being deliberately silly (always a possibility on this board), or you've never read Dune (illiterate slob!!!!!).

I've read Dune and I don't remember anything about axlotl tanks.

Luiner- sex maybe the most cost effective way, however, when the woman who ruled your planet, with almost God-like powers, curses your race with infertility, there ain't much choice...

No, I've never read Dune, although I was bored to tears by the movie.
I had a friend who kept axlotls: if you add iodine to their water they mature into the salamander state. They look pretty much the same but they can live on land.

Sorry, Ed, I am ashamed to say I don't understand your reference.

There are such things as Axlotis? Weird. And I don't remember Axlotis tanks in Dune, either. But it has been a long while since I've read it.

Chris, the movie suffered some severe editing. A friend of mine said he saw the directer's cut and it was much more coherent. I do, however, prefer the book.
Well, the axlotl tanks weren't actually mentioned in Dune, but rather the sequels. They are the creations of the Tleilaxu, master gengineers. Of note is that outsiders have only met male Tleilaxu, no females. I won't straight out tell you where the females are, except to say that the axlotl tanks are only partially mechanical constructs.

Re: lack of democracy
Frequently, it seems that democracy is how you define it. Technically, both the UK and USA are democracies, but there are (I think) distinct differences. Over here, we have two legislative houses whose members are elected by popular vote and a president elected by electoral vote. My knowledge of British government is a bit shaky, so there may be some incorrect details here. In the UK, they also have two legislative houses, but only one has its members elected by popular vote. The other is an inherited office. As far as I can tell, there is no executive branch, since the PM is basically the leader of the party with the most seats in the House of Commons, and the king/queen seems to be just camera fodder for the tourists. In a certain twisted way, one could say that the former Soviet Union was a democracy.

Oh, I totally agree that the monarchy and the House of Lords are abominations, hideous pustules on the face of our democracy. But they don't actually have any power so in the end, who cares?

But there is a worldwide recognition of what constitutes 'democracy', that people have been dying - literally - for, from Albania to Zambia. Government elected by universal suffrage, multi parties, rule of law, free press, independent judiciary, a constitution guaranteeing human rights, etc etc. I'm perfectly prepared to admit that there _might_ be other forms of democracy (though the only country that's tried is Uganda, and I'm a bit suspicious of their no-party system) but no way would Gallifrey OR the Soviet Union meet _any_ definition of democracy.

I'm prepared to bet that only Time Lords - i.e. a mere 1000 people on the planet - are permitted to vote, excluding mere Gallifreyans - the guards, the impoverished immortals in the slums, the Shobogans. You might as well claim that apartheid South Africa, or present-day Kuwait (suffrage for all males over the age of 21 whose families have been living there since the 1920s) are democracies.

The rule of law...ha ha ha. This is a world where members of the High Council can be dragged from their beds at gunpoint by the military, and a man accused of no crime can be condemned to death (Arc of Infinity).

Human - sorry, Gallifreyan - rights? Yeah, right. They've got a constitution (no vaporisation without representation!) but it's not up to much if it permits confessions to be extracted by torture (Deadly Assassin) or subjects people to an obviously inaccurate and extremely painful mind-probe (Five Doctors).

Elections...any regime on _this_ planet that gave _two days_ warning of an election (Deadly Assassin) would automatically be labelled a dictatorship. What chance does any opposition have to organise, to get its message across? Especially as parties are non-existent on Gallifrey, and it all seems to be about individuals. Which I wouldn't mind, only the individual who is President seems to have a several hundred-year term, with the right to nominate their successor...you don't even have the hope that dictatorships on this planet have, that the scumbag will drop dead eventually.

The judiciary...WHAT judiciary? A quick vote of a five-person High Council, and anyone can be sentenced to vaporisation. And we all know what happens when they decide to hold a 'proper' trial with a real judge...fourteen episodes of hell, that's what happens.

Free media...*snigger*. The Gallifreyan media consists - sorry, consisted - of Runcible the Fatuous. I rest my case.

The most telling point is that Gallifrey has a revolution in Trial of a Time Lord. Can you think of a single democracy that has had a revolution? If people don't like their Government in democracies, they kick them out through the ballot box, they don't bother overthrowing them.

And have you wondered why virtually every member of the High Council is a genocidal lunatic? Because power corrupts and absolute power corrupts - sorry, _tends_ to corrupt - absolutely. You don't get democratically-elected Presidents trying to become immortal, shooting their own Defence Secretaries, or being assassinated by their own deputies.

Moderator's Note: This is my original summary - before deciding Borusa wasn't really worthy of a thread of his own:

'"Only in mathematics will we find truth"...Borusa used to say that during my time at the Academy, and now he's setting out to prove it.'

He yearns to be President Eternal, and rule forever. He says the Doctor will never amount to anything in the universe while he retains his propensity for vulgar facetiousness. He rewrites history. He guards the Great Key of Rassilon. He wears the Coronet of Rassilon. He plays the Game of – oh, you get the picture.

And this is Mike's original Borusa summary:

"What!" I hear you saying. "How can Borusa be considered a villain?" Well, it's true that he started off as an unwilling ally of the Doctor, but as time went on, he succumbed to the lure of power. By "The Five Doctors", there's no denying his villainy.

...unless you're Terrance Dicks, of course. Borusa's power-mania and his total disregard for sentient life were apparently just little hiccups in his role as a Really Good Guy. In Eight Doctors the Doc pursuades Rassilon to release him because he is the only one to save Gallifrey from revolution - the only one who can be trusted by all sides. Funny, I'd have thought any Gallifreyan who caught sight of him would scream and run a mile. Unless the Time Lords were up to their old reinventing-history-to-create-heroes trick.

As for Blood Harvest...the strength and purity of Borusa's mind defeats the bad guy. All his crimes were merely a lapse - he has now 'gone sane', and the Doctor kneels to kiss his hand. Forget 'She's my mother and I don't love her.' Forget 'Dwelling happily as a warrior queen.' This is the ultimate sick-bag scene. And it's odd, because if it was me believing I'd be spending the rest of eternity doing nothing but roll my eyeballs, I don't think it would have that great an effect on my mental health.

Which regeneration do you think Borusa was on when we first met him? Do you reckon he'd been through a couple already?

Yes. I don't think he'd have got that high up in
the Time Lord hierarchy if he'd been a mere
first-regenerationer.

Wonder why the third Borusa we see opted for a moustache? Most Time Lords we see are clean shaven, aside from the Master.

Obviously a clue that he was turning evil. ;-)

Ah, but then the next version we saw in The Five Doctors was clean shaven!

He realised the moustache was a dead giveaway and shaved it off...?

Actually I never noticed Borusa had one in Arc of Infinity. I was too busy wondering why on Earth he'd turned into an incompetent wimp. Who failed to realise that Hedin was the traitor-on-the-High-Council even when Hedin was POINTING A GUN AT HIM.

'A billion years of Time Lord history'...OK, that's STILL a drop in the ocean of a universe that lasts a hundred trillion years...even if Rassilon's using the British and pretty-much-obsolete meaning of a million million years instead of a thousand million...

Blimey...how long has Rassilon been FRYING any High Councillor who put forward an alternative suggestion? No wonder he's losing the War.

And why is he still bothering with voting and suchlike? If venturing an opinion gets you vaporised (without representation!) and voting against Rassy gets you Weeping-Angeled? (Incidentally...why does Rassilon refer to them as 'the Weeping Angels of old'? Those were just the forms Sally Sparrow happened to encounter. The name of the species is The Lonely Assassins.)

And blimey, the High Council's grown since the Good Old Days. You'd think having a War on (not to mention having a genocidal maniac in charge) would reduce their numbers, not increase them.

Why does Rassilon use his Glove to sever the Master's link with humanity? Since when has Rassilon cared about mere humans?

'Choose your enemy well' - why does Rassilon give the Doctor the CHANCE to choose his enemy? Why doesn't he just zap him with the Glove - especially when the Doc keeps turning his back? Rassilon's entire being is dedicated to preserving the Time Lords - at the expense of the universe itself, if needs be. He's no God-Emperor of the Daleks, to place the thrill of the Doctor becoming a killer over the future of his own species. Yet with all this 'The final act of your life is murder...Which one of us' stuff Rassilon certainly SOUNDS like he's more interested in Doctorish psychology than Gallifrey's survival.

'The Visionary confirms it...' - interesting. That people who had time travel relied on soothsayers, and that she seems to have been nicked from the novels' whole Pythia thing...whilst RTG's trampling all over their Cousins and Looms and suchlike. (Of course, Time Lords ARE presumably forbidden to pop back and forward to see/mess with Gallifrey's own history/future, but that obviously didn't stop Rassilon when it came to his bit of child-abuse.)

The Doctor confesses to CHOOSING to remember the Time Lords as wonderful. Why? However hard he tries to pretend it's the War that made 'em this way...they never were REMOTELY wonderful. And isn't this just a way of wallowing in the guilt of destroying them?

'We will ascend! To become creastures of consciousness alone, free of bodies, time, cause and effect.' - Er, HELLO! Is the word 'Celestis' ringing any bells, here? Yet again RTG nicks stuff from Alien Bodies without having the decency to BEG Lawrence Miles to write a few New Who scripts of his own.

To become creastures of consciousness alone, free of bodies, time, cause and effect.' - Er, HELLO! Is the word 'Celestis' ringing any bells, here?

Maybe was just watching Star Trek instead. There are several stories along those lines.

Ugg, really?

Still, the Celestis were Time Lords who changed into beings of pure thought because they could see the War in Heaven coming...that's rather specific...

True, much more so than the ST stories which all involved nonhumans.

Moderator's Note: Moved from the 'Monsters: Ood' section:

I'm not sure I'd call Rassilon a monster though. He was, after all, just saving his race, not an unthinkable thing to do. Why should he care about all us lesser nothings?

Well, if I had a choice between my own species and EVERY OTHER SPECIES IN THE UNIVERSE, humanity would be a goner. Once I'd carefully preserved its Doctor Who collection, obviously.

Anyway, even though Five Doctors sets Rassilon up as the big hero, it drops enough hints ('Some say his fellow Time Lords rebelled against his cruelty...' not to mention his Tomb being covered with the desperate rolling red eyeballs of people condemned to eternal horror) that one can call him 'monster' on THAT basis alone, never mind his later tendency to disintegrate anyone who disagrees with him...oh, and the entire universe.

Rassilon has appeared twice in the show (if Timothy Dalton is meant to be Rassilon)

Of course he's meant to be Rassilon! The Doctor calling him Rassilon is a dead give-away! Plus he was still kinda alive in his Tomb so the Time Lords would have been crazy NOT to wake him up and put the victor of the PREVIOUS Great War in charge of this one.

Hmm, yes, I suppose he is a bit montrous. Loved Dalton in the role though, however inexplicable.

Oh, he was fantastic! Way better than the mustachio-ed bloke in the Tomb. I just could have lived without all that spit.

if I had a choice between my own species and EVERY OTHER SPECIES IN THE UNIVERSE,

That wasn't the choice. The options were

1/Let the Daleks win - unthinkable
2/Destroy the universe, and survive.
3/Let the Doctor Time Lock the Time War, theoretically wiping out both Daleks and Time Lords.

Option 3 certainly looks like the best for the universe, but it's absurdly optimistic. How many villains as the Doctor met who were thought to be trapped in inescapable prisons?

The Time Lock is already leaking. Davros escaped, Gallifrey nearly followed suit, both within the first few years after the Time War ended. There will inevitably be more escapes - Time Lord renegades, Dalek battle fleets, the nightmare creatures spawned by the war - until the Time Lock breaks down completely, and the Time War is back on, at which point the only choices left will be 1 and 2.

Option three is just a delaying measure. It will work as long as the Doctor lives - he's quite capable of single-handedly defeating all the escapees - but the Doctor has turned down immortality time and again. When he dies, there will be none who can defend the universe against the horrors escaping from the Time Lock to ravage eternity. That's not a good way for the universe to end.

This makes the second option a mercy killing for a ravaged universe. The Doctor's choice only delays the inevitable, and probably makes it worse when it finally happens. Ultimately, all three options are morally unacceptable, with Dalek victory being the worst.

Option 4: The Doctor finds a way to either permanently seal off the Time War from the universe or finds a way for his side to win.

Where there's life, there's hope!

No. Remember Turn Left. While the Doctor lives, there's hope. When he dies, all hope will die with him, and despair shall reign supreme. The stars will go out, while the Black Guardian laughs as all time and space is reduced to a charnal-house of horrors, all history rewritten time and again, each revision more nightmarish than the one before.

As even the Master acknowledged, a universe without the Doctor would be unthinkable. Better to put it down gently than to permit such suffering.

The options were

1/Let the Daleks win - unthinkable

A surprising number of people prefer to live as Dalek slaves than die. Just sayin'.

2/Destroy the universe, and survive.

INSANE.

3/Let the Doctor Time Lock the Time War, theoretically wiping out both Daleks and Time Lords.

Option 3 certainly looks like the best for the universe, but it's absurdly optimistic. How many villains as the Doctor met who were thought to be trapped in inescapable prisons?

Yes, alright, so you get the occasional Dalek ship falling crippled through time (OK...LOADS of 'em) plus the occasional chameleon-arched Time Lord...

There will inevitably be more escapes - Time Lord renegades, Dalek battle fleets, the nightmare creatures spawned by the war - until the Time Lock breaks down completely, and the Time War is back on, at which point the only choices left will be 1 and 2.

Not necessarily. The Doctor will always be around to send 'em all back to hell, as often as necessary. (Remember him bringing the teleporting Margaret Blon Slitheen back in Boom Town? 'I could do this all day...')

It will work as long as the Doctor lives

Oh. Sorry. Should probably read your whole post BEFORE replying to bits of it...

he's quite capable of single-handedly defeating all the escapees - but the Doctor has turned down immortality time and again.

I dunno about 'time and again'...anyway, he has 507 regenerations, what need has he of immortality...

When he dies, there will be none who can defend the universe against the horrors escaping from the Time Lock to ravage eternity.

OK, so I'm not entirely sure how the sound of drums, the white point star diamond thingy, AND the Doctor's Mum (or whoever) nipped out of the Time Lock, but they were all extremely complicated and one-off events, OK?

That's not a good way for the universe to end.

I'd vote to be swallowed by the Nightmare Child rather than being wiped out of existence in Rassilon's stupid plan to become incorporeal, any day. I'd be less likely to get spat upon, for starters.

Option 4: The Doctor finds a way to either permanently seal off the Time War from the universe or finds a way for his side to win.

Hear, hear! GO DOCTOR! Remember, even darling Ten isn't up to the standards of River's future Doctor(s), so doubt HE (or of course SHE) will find a way...

Remember Turn Left. While the Doctor lives, there's hope. When he dies, all hope will die with him, and despair shall reign supreme.

DIE! He's not gonna DIE! Not while he has friends out there willing to chuck themselves under trucks to bring him back. Allow me to be the first to volunteer. (Well...second. Sarah Jane can go first. She's older than me and anyway, SHE was the one who said the Doc could never die while he had friends...)

As even the Master acknowledged, a universe without the Doctor would be unthinkable. Better to put it down gently than to permit such suffering.

Yeah, that's what I'd've said during the Sixteen Long And Barren Years Of Despair. Aren't we all glad I didn't have my finger on any nuclear buttons...

Alien Bodies:

'"No one's going to gatecrash the auction. Trust me on this, all right?" Homunculette made a muted grunting sound that might just have been a laugh. "I'm a Time Lord," he said. "We don't trust anyone unless they're dead or stupid. We're like that."' - so why on Earth would the Time Lords (after half a millennium of the ultimate war) trust dead or stupid people? Stupid people are easily manipulated by the Enemy...or anyone...and dead people are BOUND to be re-animated by the Celestis, who are, of course, partially allied with the Enemy...

OK, I'm the last person to give the Time Lords credit for any INTELLIGENCE, but...how could they not have noticed HUNDREDS of Time Lords and their TARDISes vanishing down the plughole of the universe? Could they not have sent the Doctor to investigate, especially as one of 'em was a personal friend of his? And what on Earth were so many of them doing roaming the universe in the first place?

Presumably these were older Time Lords, before they became so boring. And perhaps the High Council did send some to investigate, only to have those TARDISes eaten as well.

Or maybe they did notice, and approved, some of them anyway. We know the High Council traditionally has a traitor on it; one of them could have set up House, and fiddled with the Matrix so the evidence would get covered up.

Presumably these were older Time Lords, before they became so boring.

Gallifrey's been boring as hell for millions (Old Who) and/or billions (New Who) of years. And I don't think the Doc was hanging around with Time Lords from the Dark Times cos that would probably have been against the Laws of Time or something.

And perhaps the High Council did send some to investigate, only to have those TARDISes eaten as well.

In which case they'd've called the Doctor the way they did when 'Two of the High Council went into the Death Zone. Neither returned.'

Or maybe they did notice, and approved, some of them anyway.

Wow. And I thought I was cynical about the Time Lords...

We know the High Council traditionally has a traitor on it; one of them could have set up House, and fiddled with the Matrix so the evidence would get covered up.

But WHY, exactly? All the traitors did at least have some kind of reason - power-hunger, fear of death, Omega-worship...why arrange for your own people to be randomly murdered by a jumped-up asteroid?

Gallifrey's been boring as hell for millions...of years.

Has it? When did their non-intervention (i.e. peeping tom) stage begin?

why arrange for your own people to be randomly murdered by a jumped-up asteroid?

Because when they're all dead, you'll be able reign supreme over time itself. Bump of all potential rivals, then turn yourself into a god, with absolute dominion over all time and space. Obviously, you have to kill your rivals off first, or they'll try and hijack your grand plan, seizing godhood for themselves.

The culprit might well have spent 5000 years practising his mad laughter, while he ticked off the names on his list. The Monk, gone down the plughole, the Captain, gone; the Rani, gone; the Midwife, gone; the Judge, gone; the Knight, gone; the Corsair, gone. No doubt, he will have been most annoyed when the Time War disrupted his grand scheme.

When did their non-intervention (i.e. peeping tom) stage begin?

After the Minyans reacted rather badly to their new 'gods' (Underword)...god knows what YEAR that was, though.

why arrange for your own people to be randomly murdered by a jumped-up asteroid?

Because when they're all dead, you'll be able reign supreme over time itself. Bump of all potential rivals, then turn yourself into a god, with absolute dominion over all time and space. Obviously, you have to kill your rivals off first, or they'll try and hijack your grand plan, seizing godhood for themselves.

You'd think Step One of this Cunning Plan would be offing the Doctor, though. There's NO WAY he wouldn't notice you slaughtering hundreds of Time Lords, some of them his close friends (except that, er, he didn't).

So...do Time Lords have super-strength? Cos looking at, say, the coffin-dodgers in Deadly Assassin I'm thinking not, but in that case SPOILERS FOR A GOOD MAN GOES TO WAR why did Little River have super-strength enough to break out of the spacesuit?

Emily:You'd think Step One of this Cunning Plan would be offing the Doctor, though.

ARE YOU KIDDING?!?!?!

The Doctor's the only thing keeping the competition in check. Single-handed he keeps many Time Lords from beating you to the punch(the Master,the Rani,the War Chief,the Monk all come to mind). He watches others(Cho-Je,Chronotis,and maybe others) to prevent problems. He keeps other powers from getting too strong(Daleks,Cybermen,Sontarans,and others). He's lead an invasion of Gallifrey, and wiped-out the Time Lords at least twice.

No-your goal should be to become his trusted friend. You should tell him how smart and wise he is while following him like a puppy(and gathering power behind his back). When the time is right-you have him leave you on some useful planet to continue working;only to return in another role later.

You practice saying things like "I'm sorry,Doctor" and "I was only trying to save Paris(I didn't know he was planning to wipe out humanity)".

You gather and store weapons and artifacts where you can find them(remember-there were 2 Time Lords on Earth in An Unearthly Child.

Only when everything is ready do you kill him-just before taling over everything.

As we've seen no one try th---OH SMEG.

Could someone already be using my plan(could Susan,Romana, and River Song be the same person and following my plan now)--could that be the plan for the big reveal in 2013????

If someone is using my plan-all I ask is a cut.

I have this thing for beach front property--all I ask is Australis.

Emily:You'd think Step One of this Cunning Plan would be offing the Doctor, though.

ARE YOU KIDDING?!?!?!

The Doctor's the only thing keeping the competition in check. Single-handed he keeps many Time Lords from beating you to the punch(the Master,the Rani,the War Chief,the Monk all come to mind). He watches others(Cho-Je,Chronotis,and maybe others) to prevent problems. He keeps other powers from getting too strong(Daleks,Cybermen,Sontarans,and others). He's lead an invasion of Gallifrey, and wiped-out the Time Lords at least twice.

Oh. Yeah. REALLY good point.

No-your goal should be to become his trusted friend. You should tell him how smart and wise he is while following him like a puppy(and gathering power behind his back). When the time is right-you have him leave you on some useful planet to continue working;only to return in another role later.

You practice saying things like "I'm sorry,Doctor" and "I was only trying to save Paris(I didn't know he was planning to wipe out humanity)".

You gather and store weapons and artifacts where you can find them(remember-there were 2 Time Lords on Earth in An Unearthly Child.

Only when everything is ready do you kill him-just before taling over everything.

BRILLIANT. Absolutely brilliant. Why did I never think of this?

Oh yeah...because I don't WANT to take over the universe and I DO want to follow the Doctor round like a puppy out of the purest and most genuine of motives. It is, in point of fact, my life's ambition.

As we've seen no one try th---OH SMEG.

Could someone already be using my plan(could Susan,Romana, and River Song be the same person and following my plan now)--could that be the plan for the big reveal in 2013????

River DIED for the Doctor. THAT is taking fake-Companionship a step too far...

If someone is using my plan-all I ask is a cut.

I REALLY wouldn't, if I were you. You KNOW what happens when one Evil Guy turns to the other and says 'Great work!' (or 'Cool! Sontar-HA!' or whatever) and asks for their cut. It NEVER ends well...

Emily:River DIED for the Doctor. THAT is taking fake-Companionship a step too far...

Good point,on the other hand-with all the timeline changes you've mentioned in the last two years are you sure she's still dead(how many times has Rory come back now??).

Emily:I REALLY wouldn't, if I were you. You KNOW what happens when one Evil Guy turns to the other and says 'Great work!' (or 'Cool! Sontar-HA!' or whatever) and asks for their cut. It NEVER ends well...

Sorry Emily-I forgot you only know Who. I was making a movie reference. In Superman II one villian(Lex Luthor) sells out humanity(and Superman) to the invaders(Zod and friends). All he asks is Australia(he has a thing for beach-front property).

In truth the best plan is to get the villian to trust you, watch as they take the Doctor out--then knife them in the back. That way you win.

Emily: Oh yeah...because I don't WANT to take over the universe and I DO want to follow the Doctor round like a puppy out of the purest and most genuine of motives. It is, in point of fact, my life's ambition.

You've got me--I really don't want to rule this mess either.

I'd much rather BLOW IT UP!!!!!!!!(insert evil laugh).

Don't worry-just kidding(or am I?--I must be-see the smileys).

You know,I really thought you'd be more upset by what I was saying about Susan and Romana.

Oh,well--such is life.

(how many times has Rory come back now??).

I am SO not even gonna TRY to count...

Sorry Emily-I forgot you only know Who.

Yes, you SHOULD be sorry!

I was making a movie reference. In Superman II one villian(Lex Luthor) sells out humanity(and Superman) to the invaders(Zod and friends). All he asks is Australia(he has a thing for beach-front property).

But Australia IS rather hot and big-spider-filled. This is reminding me of two Who authors (Dicks and Letts??) getting together to try to work out WHY aliens were invading Earth all the time, but only managing to decide that Canada would be a rather desirable property...

In truth the best plan is to get the villian to trust you, watch as they take the Doctor out--then knife them in the back. That way you win.

You win providing THEY don't knife YOU in the back first...it all sounds rather too risky for ME...(Leaving aside the fact I'd do a Jo Grant-style 'No! Don't kill my Doctor! Kill me instead!' thing ANY day...(well, any day that my Doc wasn't Colin, anyway...))

You've got me--I really don't want to rule this mess either.

Of course, one can't help thinking that Earth/the universe/whatever would be SO MUCH BETTER OFF under one's benevolence guidance...I mean, even if I never did anything but force people to watch Who and stop breeding like rabbits, just THINK how much better off humanity would be...

I'd much rather BLOW IT UP!!!!!!!!(insert evil laugh).

Don't worry-just kidding(or am I?--I must be-see the smileys).

:-) :-) :-) :-)

Of course you're kidding. As, I'm fairly sure, was Davros in Stolen Earth/Journey's End. (He just wanted to attract the Doctor's attention...who wouldn't?)

You know,I really thought you'd be more upset by what I was saying about Susan and Romana.

Oh,well--such is life.

Sadly, long exposure to Outpost Gallifrey/Gallifrey Base has simply led to me ignoring all Romana=Susan=The Rani (or whatever) claims...

Emily:But Australia IS rather hot and big-spider-filled.

But this did follow from Superman--where Lex is buying up large tracts of desert in the American west(think Nevada,Arizona, and Californias east side.

He was planning to trigger an earthquake to sink most of California--making his land sky-rocket in value(if you don't believe me-watch the movie).

Emily:You win providing THEY don't knife YOU in the back first...it all sounds rather too risky for ME...

Hey-I never said there was no risk.

The trick is to find the right time-after the Doctor has defeated all other threats and been taken down, but before someone gets the idea to take me out. Of course it's risky!!!

Emily: Of course, one can't help thinking that Earth/the universe/whatever would be SO MUCH BETTER OFF under one's benevolence guidance...

To misquote Bugs:You don't know me very well, do you???

Emily:I mean, even if I never did anything but force people to watch Who and stop breeding like rabbits, just THINK how much better off humanity would be...

Are you kidding-the high breeding rate is the best part-you can replace loses fairly quickly.

All you need to do is convince them you're their friend,convince them all aliens are evil(which Who proves very nicely),provide the tech-and watch as they take over everything in their name(but your control).

It's a cheap, easy-to-replace army that will love to fight. For conquest--what could be better.

Emily: Of course you're kidding. As, I'm fairly sure, was Davros in Stolen Earth/Journey's End. (He just wanted to attract the Doctor's attention...who wouldn't?)

Riiiiight!!

I don't know how to answer that one.

Emily:Sadly, long exposure to Outpost Gallifrey/Gallifrey Base has simply led to me ignoring all Romana=Susan=The Rani (or whatever) claims...

Sorry, I don't buy that the Rani is part of this(not clever enough), but River Song works--and with I've seen written about this season,proceding with my plan very nicely!!!

Moderator's Note: Moved from Original Series: Season Nine: The Mutants:

Time Lord stupidity. Shall I get the list started?

Materialising the box he's to deliver on Solos in the Doctor's lab instead of, say, Solos. Only the intended person can open it anyway.

Reprimanding the Doctor for interfering by sentencing him to exile on an alien (to them) planet where he will do nothing but interfere AND letting him keep the TARDIS he stole. (And why wasn't he charged with stealing?)

Exiling the Rani by letting her rule a planet AND keep her functioning TARDIS.

Having a law that allows criminals to escape trial by nominating themselves for president of the planet. (Admittedly this is a loophole and probably could only occur when a criminal is facing charges when a president dies without naming a successor, but that president was in office for a couple hundred years apparently, during which time he never named his replacement.)

Naming it 'the mind probe.'

Sending the Doctor to recover the file on the Doomsday Weapon, without telling him what is mission is.

(And didn't the novelisation of Colony state that to access that file required two people so that races with only two arms couldn't do it? I must me misremember that. At least I hope I am.)

My favourite: Sending the Doctor and his companions to Skaro to prevent the Daleks from developing....by dropping them off in the middle of a minefield.

Allowing Terrance Dicks, Bob Baker, Dave Martin and Pip and Jane Baker to write their stories.

This should probably have its own board...

Materialising the box he's to deliver on Solos in the Doctor's lab instead of, say, Solos. Only the intended person can open it anyway.
But he still needed the Doctor to figure out what it meant, as well as defeating the Marshal. The Time Lords realized that the best way to free a planet from evil invaders was send the Doctor. ;-)

Reprimanding the Doctor for interfering by sentencing him to exile on an alien (to them) planet where he will do nothing but interfere
That was the point actually. Rewatch War Games... errr... just the last episode (no need to be cruel here). The Time Lords sent the Doctor to Earth at a time when Earth would need help.

Naming it 'the mind probe.'
It probes minds, what else would you call it? "No, not the Perfectly Harmless And Not Dangerous In Any Way Scanner Of Brains^TM! Nooooooo!!!" ;-)

Sending the Doctor to recover the file on the Doomsday Weapon, without telling him what is mission is.
His mission was just to recover the file?
"Master!"
"Doctor!"
"Say do you have that file on the Doomsday Weapon? The Time Lords want it back."
"Here you go."
"Thank you!" (Doctor & Jo get into the TARDIS & leave.)

But he still needed the Doctor to figure out what it meant, as well as defeating the Marshal. The Time Lords realized that the best way to free a planet from evil invaders was send the Doctor. ;-)
Yeah, the very thing they exiled him for...
And again, they don't tell him what his mission is.

That was the point actually. Rewatch War Games... errr... just the last episode (no need to be cruel here). The Time Lords sent the Doctor to Earth at a time when Earth would need help.
I know, and that's part of the stupidity. "You broke the rules of interference, so instead of recalling you and grounding you to Gallifrey, your punishment is just to interfere in one planet from now on, barring occasional missions that we'll send you on without telling you what the mission is."


It still strikes me odd that the Time Lords have files that can be stolen. I mean, you can hack into my computer and get the info you need without actually taking the file and alerting me to the theft. Alas, the first time we ever see the full interior of the Master's TARIDS is in Colony and it is indeed full of old-fashioned filing cabinets.

IIRC the Doctor pointed out to the Time Lords the good he was doing & they decided that perhaps it was good. He still broke Gallifrey laws, but instead of putting him in prison they sentenced him to a place where he could do good.

That being said, I wonder how a race called the Time Lords couldn't know about the Doctor even before he stole a TARDIS & left Gallifrey. As 10 said, "You're in the biggest library ever. Look me up." The Doctor would become a freaking world-saving superstar across time. How could the Time Lords not know?

(And why wasn't he charged with stealing?)

I think he WAS charged with stealing, but he did some mendacious whinging about just having BORROWED the TARDIS (actually come to think of it he should have just put the blame on Sexy for stealing HIM) and the judges turned to the FAR more grave charge of interference (after all, they'd BINNED all the other Type 40s anyway, the murdering gits).

Exiling the Rani by letting her rule a planet AND keep her functioning TARDIS.

*Shakes head despairingly*

(And didn't the novelisation of Colony state that to access that file required two people so that races with only two arms couldn't do it? I must me misremember that. At least I hope I am.)

*Checks Doomsday Weapon book* It's slightly more sane than that: 'It's a safety measure, so that no one person with only two hands can activate the combination'.

My favourite: Sending the Doctor and his companions to Skaro to prevent the Daleks from developing....by dropping them off in the middle of a minefield.

Bless!

I've always suspected they were TRYING to get Jamie killed, materialising him right in front of an armed Redcoat, but come to think of it, it probably was sheer incompetence. After all, they did WANT the Doctor to survive in Genesis...

...Or did they? According to numerous accounts of the Time War (if not any actually seen on-screen) it was Tom trying to avert the development of the Daleks that started the thing in the first place. So maybe a Time Lord faction foresaw this and, unable to prevent the mission, ensured it started in the middle of a minefield.

Of course, dropping a rather large bomb on Skaro at the dawn of its history would have been a FAR safer way of averting the Daleks' creation, since the Time Lords had decided to mess with Fixed Points and all...

Reprimanding the Doctor for interfering by sentencing him to exile on an alien (to them) planet where he will do nothing but interfere

That was the point actually.

Yes, and it was unusually compassionate and practical of the Time Lords. It was just totally bizarre by the standards of OUR legal system, which doesn't tend to imprison (AND, lest we forget, KILL! My poor darling Troughton!) people for a crime while aiding and abetting them to continue committing said crime.

Naming it 'the mind probe.'

I'm far more concerned that they were too thick to invent a mind probe that wouldn't harmlessly and painlessly exonerate the entirely innocent Castellan.

Though I suppose it's still an improvement on their PREVIOUS method of interrogation, which consisted of...TORTURE.

His mission was just to recover the file?
"Master!"
"Doctor!"
"Say do you have that file on the Doomsday Weapon? The Time Lords want it back."
"Here you go."
"Thank you!" (Doctor & Jo get into the TARDIS & leave.)



Hey - stranger things have happened. The Doctor collecting the Master's ashes from Skaro, for example...

It still strikes me odd that the Time Lords have files that can be stolen. I mean, you can hack into my computer and get the info you need without actually taking the file and alerting me to the theft.

Maybe the Time Lords were sick of their computers being hacked into by lesser species (as Tom told them, their tech was antiquated junk) so decided paper files would be safer - SO much harder for thieves to physically make off with them! they told themselves - completely failing to notice the queue of people popping onto Gallifrey to nick Doomsday Files, Biodata Extracts, Regeneration Technology, TARDISes, etc etc...

Exiling the Rani by letting her rule a planet AND keep her functioning TARDIS.

But she was female, pretty uncommon for a Time Lord, so reason enough for special treatment.

His mission was just to recover the file?

The Time Lords knew giving the Doctor direct orders just makes him unhappy. Point him at a trouble spot, leaving it up to him how to fix it, and he'll get the job done with a lot less grumbling.

Reprimanding the Doctor for interfering by sentencing him to exile on an alien (to them) planet where he will do nothing but interfere

For interfering without sanction. They didn't have any problem with him saving planets - they agreed that was a good thing - so they gave him a slap on the wrist for not doing the right paperwork, then used him to interfere on their behalf. Regenerating the Doctor was his own idea, not the courts.

But she was female, pretty uncommon for a Time Lord, so reason enough for special treatment.

If they were THAT desperate for more women, they could just have REGENERATED into them.

The Time Lords knew giving the Doctor direct orders just makes him unhappy. Point him at a trouble spot, leaving it up to him how to fix it, and he'll get the job done with a lot less grumbling.

Have you SEEN Brain of Morbius? The Doctor is even LESS amused when he's simply dumped on a planet than when a Time Lord with a floppy hat has the decency to pretend to get his consent.

They didn't have any problem with him saving planets - they agreed that was a good thing

I wouldn't go THAT far. They MAY have GRUDGINGLY been FORCED to admit that MAYBE saving planets from Daleks isn't ENTIRELY recklessly evil.

- so they gave him a slap on the wrist for not doing the right paperwork

SLAP ON THE WRIST!!! Take another look at Tennant's death-scene and tell me regeneration is no big deal!

Regenerating the Doctor was his own idea, not the courts.

Was NOT! He just babbled some pathetic excuse about it being 'embarrassing' to be exiled to Earth cos he was known there (uh...??). He most certainly didn't ask to DIE or anything.

SLAP ON THE WRIST!!! Take another look at Tennant's death-scene and tell me regeneration is no big deal!

The exile and memory blocks were the slap on the wrist. The regeneration was because the Doctor didn't want to be recognised. He should have realised how they'd interpret that.

The Doctor is even LESS amused when he's simply dumped on a planet than when a Time Lord with a floppy hat has the decency to pretend to get his consent.

But how would he react to a Time Lord telling him exactly what to do - not just 'Watch out for the Master', but 'Go to this address to find the Nestene swarm leader, use this gadget to neutralise it, and put this locator beacon on the Master, so we can yank him back to Gallifrey."

I'm pretty sure he'd like kind of micromanaging even less.

The regeneration was because the Doctor didn't want to be recognised. He should have realised how they'd interpret that.

Well, pardon ME if him babbling some pathetic and transparent excuse about the embarrassment of being recognised was misinterpreted as ASKING TO DIE.

But how would he react to a Time Lord telling him exactly what to do - not just 'Watch out for the Master', but 'Go to this address to find the Nestene swarm leader, use this gadget to neutralise it, and put this locator beacon on the Master, so we can yank him back to Gallifrey."

Alright, so he'd take ANY appearance of a Time Lord as an insult (what with them recently having MURDERED him, and all) but Pertwee honestly seemed to WANT to be micro-managed in Terror of the Autons - telling the useless git in the bowler hat (where's River when you need her?) to think of a witty way of dealing with the Master's booby-trap.

Interference:

'Most races start out in life thinking they're at the centre of the universe...They think the whole of space revolves around the home world. They think it makes them the chosen of God. It's the most common belief system there is. For humanoids, anyway...Then they find out about astronomy...They work out that their planet's just one more lump of rock floating in the middle of the red shift. Things change after that. They don't believe they're the masters of the galaxy any more...Gallifrey's at the centre of this galaxy...The truth about the Time Lords is, they never grew up. They worked out that they really were at the centre of the galaxy...They never learned the same lesson as everyone else. They still think they're the chosen ones.'

Explains a lot, doesn't it.

Though frankly I'm less convinced by another Interference gem of wisdom:

'If the Time Lords wanted something to happen, wasn't that the closest thing to "destiny" you were likely to find in this universe?'

Moderator's Note: Moved from Invasion of Time thread:

ME: They're REALLY not by our standards, are they.

I suspect that their tradition of making eight year old children stare into the Untempered Schism has a lot to do with it. 'Some would be inspired…some would run away…and some would go mad.' said the Doctor in The Sound Of Drums. But I suspect they all come out of it with cracked minds to some degree or another.

Also, the Time Lords are sworn to never intervene, which must bring about a lot of guilt for not helping out people and civilizations they KNOW they could have saved, but instead let die, or worse. That must end up gnawing at their sanity over those millenia long life spans of theirs.

I suspect that their tradition of making eight year old children stare into the Untempered Schism has a lot to do with it.

And I find it astonishing that the Doctor could run a successful campaign to get the Time Lords to ban the frankly rather fun AND species-preserving Miniscopes but should never lift a finger to save Gallifreyan kids from THAT fate. Even after what it did to him, AND to his best friend.

Also, the Time Lords are sworn to never intervene, which must bring about a lot of guilt for not helping out people and civilizations they KNOW they could have saved, but instead let die, or worse. That must end up gnawing at their sanity over those millenia long life spans of theirs.

I'm not so sure - as the madness in question often seems to manifest itself as an utter disconnection from all other life. Rodan, an unusually intelligent and lively Time Lady, could cheerily talk of a fleet going to 'blast some poor planet into dust' without batting an eyelid. Hell, the DOCTOR HIMSELF was out in the wide universe for who knows HOW long before a pair of interfering schoolteachers forced him into giving a •••• about something than himself...

Gallifrey's at the centre of this galaxy...The truth about the Time Lords is, they never grew up. They worked out that they really were at the centre of the galaxy...They never learned the same lesson as everyone else. They still think they're the chosen ones.'

- as the madness in question often seems to manifest itself as an utter disconnection from all other life.

So, we can think of the Time Lords as spoiled brats who think the Universe owes them everything and who are devoid of empathy for any race other than their own. Sweet! I'm really glad Rassilon instituted that no interference law of theirs, I shudder to imagine the sort of damage they could have done had they been allowed to roam freely in the whole of space and time.

Oh wait, I don't have to imagine it, they tried to destroy Time itself to achieve immortality, thus consigning all other beings and the whole of the Universe to oblivion. Nice. I'm not sure which is worse anymore, the Time Lords or the Daleks.

It's really amazing that the Doctor turned up so well.

they tried to destroy Time itself to achieve immortality

False. They tried to destroy Time because it was the only way for their species to survive. Expecting any species to willingly sacrifice itself for the good of the universe is just a little optimistic. The Time Lords had turned their backs on immortality long before.

Before that, the Time Lords had done some good, wiping out the Vampires and the Fendahl among others, and squashing technologies they deemed unethical, like immortality through brain transplants. They also had enough humility and restraint not to abuse their power. They could have set themselves up as gods, but they chose instead to shut themselves away.

"Some would be inspired…some would run away…and some would go mad...."

IMHO It desen't soutn too much worse than High School.

Invasion of Time:

'Rassilon is long dead but his mind lives on in the Matrix'?? What absolute nonsense. Even TROUGHTON has heard the rumours about Rassilon being alive...

Why does Borusa claim the Doctor HAS the Great Key before saying that it's lost? Given that finding the stupid thing is one of the Doc's inauguration vows, it's a pretty clumsy lie.

'Rassilon was a wily old bird' - not THAT wily, if he just stood around letting the Doctor send him back to hell.

The BATTERIES on Borusa's personal forcefield are running low??? Jeez, can't these people even invent long-lasting batteries??

'Not just this universe, ALL universes' says the Doc, of a Sontaran rampage. Hmm. This is about the only piece of evidence in Old Who for New Who's claim that the Time Lords merrily skipped between universes on a whim in the Good Old Days. (Though the fact they can't be bothered to take one step out onto the surface of their own planet may possibly undermine this.)

The Circlet is the only way to access the APC Net, we're told in Invasion of Time. Not only understandably contradicting Trial and Arc, but also Deadly Assassin...

'I could rule the universe with [the Demat Gun], Chancellor' - a) how, and b) why didn't Borusa turn to the good old Gun when HE became a megalomaniac?

SERIOUSLY no Time Lord President has EVER thought 'Oh, I bet Rassilon didn't just drop that key behind the sofa, he must have slipped it to, ooh, say, HIS CHANCELLOR'??

Moderator's Note: Moved from the 'Genesis of the Daleks' section:

ME: the Time Lords are so bad at keeping time they can't even tell whether their civilisation has lasted a billion years (End of Time) or ten million (Trial)

The Time Lord's civilization could have lasted a billion years, yet they only had 10 million years of "absolute supremacy."

That's a point...except that when exactly DID the Time Lords have absolute power, as opposed to slightly-less-than-absolute? The moment they mastered time travel, their greatest engineer fell through a black hole and a bunch of planet-destroying vampires emerged to fight them. They even needed the support of the Fledgling Empires to fight the RACNOSS (something the Doc had no trouble flushing down the plughole in about half an hour) - and the very existence of Fledgling Empires suggested that the Time Lords weren't the ONLY intelligent race around for more than about five minutes. The Minyans kicked them out. The Eternals stepped in to deal with the Carrionites. The Guardians ruled the roost.

Oh, let's face it, it's COLIN BAKER. He was probably using his usual hyperbole about the 'absolute power' AND plucked 'ten million years' out of thin air, or something. I mean, this WAS a rant about how much worse the Time Lords are than Daleks or Cybermen, and even I wouldn't say THAT.

Sometimes i prefer Colin Baker to the worst, most cringe-worthy moments of the googly eyed, scarf-wearing pantomime fool called Tom Baker.

OF COURSE I know you're only saying that to wind me up, and shall serenely refuse to rise to the bait, as I know full well it's UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to REALLY feel that way about our greatest - oh god, I'm SUCH a slut - about our third-greatest Doctor.

ROBERT in New Adventures: Timewyrm: Exodus section:

Firewalls only work against attacks of a type you know about. Basically, they'd need to be able to look at the signal and say there's some creature hiding in this, which means knowing how they pull off that trick.

One thing the Time Lords have is a LOT of is time on their hands. And nothing whatsoever to do with it. Surely SOME of those endless years could be spent by SOME of that allegedly super-intelligent race in creating some SERIOUS defence around their Matrix and their planet? Against any and all threats, even ones whose nature they weren't entirely sure of yet? Especially as the Matrix should have been able to foresee the supposedly unforeseeable threats - it went into SERIOUS detail about the Presdient's assassination, after all...

And hang on a sec, didn't the Time Lords, at least in the black-and-white era, OBSERVE the universe? Have they even stopped doing THAT? Is that why they didn't know about the Vardans' unusual abilities - cos they couldn't even be bothered to WATCH any more?

Don't get me wrong, it's probably for the best that they aren't keeping an eye on every species in the cosmos and obliterating-at-birth the ones that have the potential to develop time-travel or pose a threat, but it's just SO STUPID from Gallifrey's point of view. And it's not as if they've got anything BETTER to do.

ROBERT: Don't you remember all those traitors on the high council?

It's hard to forget 'em.

Obviously, that's just the tip of the iceberg. Those Time Lords not reduced to gibbering madness by the Schism are all too busy scheming to advance their labyrinthine plans to pay any attention to the world outside.

Didn't the Doctor say that you went mad, you ran away, OR you were inspired? Most of the nutters as well as the runners-away seem to have left Gallifrey to wreak havoc across the universe, which would mean there were a lot of INSPIRED people on Gallifrey - funny we've never seen one...

And surely it would occur to 'em that alien invaders stomping all over Gallifrey might mess up their labyrinthine schemes?

the Matrix should have been able to foresee the supposedly unforeseeable threats

But the Matrix is an amalgam of dead Time Lords, with all that implies.

That implies to ME that the Matrix should be catatonic. Which is obviously isn't.

It might well have felt that the invasion would do Gallifrey good.

Now THAT'S a VERY INTERESTING POINT. Especially as they'd be able to see that the Doctor stopped it, albeit at a cost of quite a few lives plus a lot of dull corridor-running...

which would mean there were a lot of INSPIRED people on Gallifrey - funny we've never seen one...

Alternately, most of those who run, run metaphorically. The Schism shows them all eternity, so they hide from it beneath a blanket of tedium, clinging to familiar routines rather than face the immense grandeur of the cosmos.

The Doctor may believe he ran away, but he doesn't like himself much, as the Dream Lord showed. Objectively, it makes much more sense if he was inspired.

That implies to ME that the Matrix should be catatonic.

To me it implies it acts almost like a committee of living Time Lords, and not at all like an impartial computer. It had an agenda of its own.

specially as they'd be able to see that the Doctor stopped it, albeit at a cost of quite a few lives plus a lot of dull corridor-running...

The matrix monitors all history - umpteen million hours watching presidents and potentates sleep, to see if anything dramatic happens. A little corridor running won't trouble the Matrix, and it may have had good reason to want the casualties dead. Perhaps one of them would otherwise have become a second Rani, for example.

Alternately, most of those who run, run metaphorically. The Schism shows them all eternity, so they hide from it beneath a blanket of tedium, clinging to familiar routines rather than face the immense grandeur of the cosmos.

Yes, I suppose that makes sense.

The Doctor may believe he ran away, but he doesn't like himself much, as the Dream Lord showed. Objectively, it makes much more sense if he was inspired.

Yeah, he must be the only person in the universe who DOESN'T think he was inspired. (Or maybe he does, and was just being modest, and Jack and Martha totally failed to provide the 'Oh but Doctor, OF COURSE you were inspired!' reaction he was hoping for?)

That implies to ME that the Matrix should be catatonic.

To me it implies it acts almost like a committee of living Time Lords, and not at all like an impartial computer. It had an agenda of its own.

A committee of Time Lords (dead OR alive) could never come up with ANY agenda. Half of 'em would be wanting to take over the planet/universe and the other half would be wanting a nice snooze.

And if it had shown serious signs of a character of its own, wouldn't Spandrell and Engin have been a LOT more reluctant to wipe out loads of those minds in order to save the Doctor?

The matrix monitors all history

Are you sure? Cos if the Time Lords wanted to look at the rest of the universe, they could. I reckon the Matrix concentrates on Gallifrey, cos Gallifrey is the only place whose past and future the Time Lords aren't allowed to see directly.

it may have had good reason to want the casualties dead. Perhaps one of them would otherwise have become a second Rani, for example.

Wouldn't that be using a sledgehammer to crack a nut? There was, after all, a good chance that the Sontarans would blow up Gallifrey if they didn't manage to conquer it - the Doctor's victory wasn't set in stone. Whereas there were no doubt plenty of ruthless Time Lords the Matrix could have dropped a hint to to get the occasional inconvenient person put down.

And if they'd been any good at identifying and ruthlessly dealing with future megalomaniacs, there wouldn't be such a loooong list of 'em...

A committee of Time Lords (dead OR alive) could never come up with ANY agenda. Half of 'em would be wanting to take over the planet/universe and the other half would be wanting a nice snooze.

They couldn't come up with a consistent agenda. They'd lurch around, torn between half a dozen mad plans, explaining why the Matrix is less than useful.

And if it had shown serious signs of a character of its own, wouldn't Spandrell and Engin have been a LOT more reluctant to wipe out loads of those minds in order to save the Doctor?

Not when they've had the joy of meeting the Doctor in person. The Time Lords in the matrix are as real to them as the other people posting here to us, and their deaths would mean no more.

I reckon the Matrix concentrates on Gallifrey

It was a Matrix projection that sparked Genesis of the Daleks, so even if it concentrates on Gallifrey, it still seems to watch the rest of the universe too.

Wouldn't that be using a sledgehammer to crack a nut?

These are Time Lords, albeit dead ones, so they wouldn't be bothered by that.

Another possible reason for the Matrix allowing the invasion is a gentle warning to beef up the defences - the living Time Lords wouldn't have noticed a subtler message, being too busy with their own schemes.

And if they'd been any good at identifying and ruthlessly dealing with future megalomaniacs, there wouldn't be such a loooong list of 'em...

As always, we don't know what the Matrix-less would look like. It's possible that for every renegade in canon, there'd have been fifty, zooming around the universe in pursuit of fifty different insane agendas.

And if it had shown serious signs of a character of its own, wouldn't Spandrell and Engin have been a LOT more reluctant to wipe out loads of those minds in order to save the Doctor?

Not when they've had the joy of meeting the Doctor in person.

Yeah, that's a point. They'd have a similar reaction to Rose Tyler's when told two universes would have to be destroyed for her to be with the Doctor again: 'So?'

It was a Matrix projection that sparked Genesis of the Daleks, so even if it concentrates on Gallifrey, it still seems to watch the rest of the universe too.

It wouldn't have to watch the rest of the universe, it could watch the Daleks invading Gallifrey. Crashing into the Capitol dome with their ships (End of Time), taking the Cruciform (Sound of Drums)...(Well, that's assuming the Cruciform IS Gallifreyan.)

Wouldn't that be using a sledgehammer to crack a nut?

These are Time Lords, albeit dead ones, so they wouldn't be bothered by that.

But most Time Lords think on a remarkably small scale. Invent time travel? Teleport in a few monsters for a sporting event! Screwed up on Earth? Tow it a whole TWO LIGHTYEARS AWAY! Suspect the Daleks will eventually rule all Creation? Oh, dump the Doc on Skaro, hopefully he'll think of something...

As always, we don't know what the Matrix-less would look like. It's possible that for every renegade in canon, there'd have been fifty, zooming around the universe in pursuit of fifty different insane agendas.

But you'd think if the Matrix succeeded in removing ANY renegade, the Master would have been top of the list, the git DID wipe out half the universe on a bad day...(Of course, it MIGHT have foreseen that his endless battle with the Doctor would be necessary to get Gallifrey out of its time-lock, but that's unlikely, they needed a mad witch to tell 'em THAT.)

It wouldn't have to watch the rest of the universe

The Doctor was told the matrix had seen a future where the Daleks dominated the universe, not one where they attacked Gallifrey. Besides, how did they know to send the Doctor to Peladon and Solon?

But most Time Lords think on a remarkably small scale

Most, but not all, and you know how committee meetings work. If there are three raving nutters who want to blow up the Andromeda galaxy, and fifty people who just want to go home, the nutters will keep on talking until the committee agrees with them just to get them to shut up.

In my experience, that generally happened after about six hours, though that was only in the lower ranks of the civil service, and our nutters were marginally less ambitious. Dead Time Lords could probably hold out against the boredom a bit longer, but not forever.

But you'd think if the Matrix succeeded in removing ANY renegade, the Master would have been top of the list

Only if he's removable. Considering how good he is at coming back from the dead, that's doubtful. He may not be quite as much of a universal fact as Jack Harkness, but he can laugh off anything the matrix can do.

The Doctor was told the matrix had seen a future where the Daleks dominated the universe, not one where they attacked Gallifrey.

Yeah, but the Time Lords are a self-important, self-deluding bunch who, if they foresaw a flying saucer wobbling across their orange skies in a Dalek Invasion of Earth manner, would instantly leap to the conclusion that a conquered Gallfrey = a conquered universe. No matter HOW many aliens have jackbooted across the Capitol without daring to invade any OTHER planets.

Besides, how did they know to send the Doctor to Peladon and Solon?

Oh.

Yeah.

I've always found 'em giving a •••• about Solon and Peladon HIGHLY UNLIKELY but it's undeniable that this is what HAPPENED.

you know how committee meetings work. If there are three raving nutters who want to blow up the Andromeda galaxy, and fifty people who just want to go home, the nutters will keep on talking until the committee agrees with them just to get them to shut up.

Oh.

Actually, I DIDN'T know how Committees worked.

Now I'm rather scared.

Dead Time Lords could probably hold out against the boredom a bit longer, but not forever.

I'm thinking if ANYONE could hold out against boredom forever, it's a dead Time Lord. They had so much practice when they were alive.

But you'd think if the Matrix succeeded in removing ANY renegade, the Master would have been top of the list

Only if he's removable. Considering how good he is at coming back from the dead, that's doubtful. He may not be quite as much of a universal fact as Jack Harkness, but he can laugh off anything the matrix can do.

Good point. That probably explains a lot about The Five Doctors: 'We've FINALLY captured the most evil renegade of all time, let's execute him IMMEDIATELY, and to hell with no vaporisation without representation!' 'Oh, why BOTHER, he'll only come back from the dead AGAIN, probably with peroxided hair, laser-bolts shooting from his hands and the ability to fly...might as well save ourselves the time, and hey, why not just offer him a new regeneration cycle into the bargain...'

KYLE in The Doctor's Wife: An ignorant question, perhaps: why do some Timelords, then, have "normal" names like Romana or Rassilon?

Presumably they all got given names of varying ridiculousness by their parents (from 'Goth' to 'Romanadvoratrelundar') and a LOT of 'em understandably went for a nice title instead, once they were old enough to pick and choose. I'm guessing it's only the Doctor's name that's 'more than a secret' and quite possibly universe-destroying secret into the bargain.

'They've lost their sense of humour' says Troughton, in War Games. The Time Lords used to have a sense of humour?! I suspect if that had been the case the Doc wouldn't have been so quick to scarper. And it IS the middle of a genocide trial - cracking jokes might not be entirely...appropriate.

Plus, the way the Time Lords say 'We shall not endanger innocent lives' surely implies they DO have a sense of humour...

WHY do they wipe Jamie and Zoe's memories, exactly? They don't seem concerned about past (or future) Companions running round with memories of the Doctor, so is it the fact Jamie and Zoe have seen a couple of rooms in the Capitol? Maybe that they've seen how easily any old idiot can teleport in and shoot Time Lords?

The Time Lord in Terror of the Autons remembers the Master, all right, down to his academic qualifications ('His degree in cosmic science was of a higher class than yours'). And no doubt he wasn't the only one. In a society THAT boring, the Master would have made quite an impression. And on Gallifrey Time Lords no doubt live for thousands of years. So why did the Master think that removing his biodata from the records would expunge all memory of him? And why did it bloody WORK??

Also: 'Good luck' - what the hell was the bowler-hatted git doing telling the Doctor THAT? I'd assume Time Lords wouldn't believe in this 'luck' thing. (Actually I'm not just ASSUMING it - when the Doctor ASKED the High Council to wish him luck in Five Doctors the miserable so-and-sos merely wished him 'success' instead.)

Oh, and the bowler-hatted-bloke says he's come 29,000 light-years - someone who knows anything about light-years tell me if this adds up, given that Gallifrey is at the centre of the Milky Way and Earth is a lot further out.

Oh, and the bowler-hatted-bloke says he's come 29,000 light-years - someone who knows anything about light-years tell me if this adds up, given that Gallifrey is at the centre of the Milky Way and Earth is a lot further out.

It actually does. Our own best observations put the Sun about 27200 ± 1100 ly away from the center of the Milky Way. A distance of 29,000 ly was right in the ballpark when Terror of the Autons was made.

I wish I didn't know that. Now I can't help wondering if it's just coincidentally right or not...

How do we know Gallifrey's at the center of the galaxy?

We don't. In the telemovie, Gallifrey is said to be 250 million light years away from Earth, which would put it far outside our own galaxy.

A distance of 29,000 ly was right in the ballpark when Terror of the Autons was made.

But he didn't say he'd come straight from Gallifrey. That's just an assumption. The centre of our galaxy might just be where he changed buses, metaphorically, or it might be a branch office.

A distance of 29,000 ly was right in the ballpark when Terror of the Autons was made.

Good old Who! How could I have doubted its scientific accuracy!

I wish I didn't know that. Now I can't help wondering if it's just coincidentally right or not...

It would be a pretty big coincidence.

How do we know Gallifrey's at the center of the galaxy?

We don't.

Oh...yeah...we don't, do we. It was one of the few ideas from the novels that actually felt so natural, so RIGHT (see my post of December 22, 2011) that I completely forgot it hadn't actually been introduced on TV.

But surely the presence of Solon, a human, on Sarn, so close to Gallifrey, implies we're all part of one big happy galaxy? (Um...Sarn IS close to Gallifrey, right? It doesn't just say so in Lungbarrow...?)

In the telemovie, Gallifrey is said to be 250 million light years away from Earth, which would put it far outside our own galaxy.

Wow. There was so much ELSE to have fits of screaming hysteria over in the telemovie I must have missed that one. (Plus my light-year knowledge is obviously a bit hazy.)

But he didn't say he'd come straight from Gallifrey. That's just an assumption. The centre of our galaxy might just be where he changed buses, metaphorically, or it might be a branch office.

Oh. That's a point. I find the thought of CIA branch offices unconvincing (Time Lords belong on Gallifrey! Except the 50% of them who are Renegades, obviously) but sadly Trial of a Time Lord's bloody great spacestation proves that such things exist regardless of my lack of belief.

But surely the presence of Solon, a human, on Sarn, so close to Gallifrey, implies we're all part of one big happy galaxy?

Morbius might happen after humans have gone inter-galactic. Its dating is pretty fuzzy.

Ah, yes. AHistory has it as '?3120', with a helpful footnote saying 'TARDIS Logs suggested "3047", Apocrypha gave a date of "6246 AD", The Terrestrial Index supposed that the "Morbius Crisis" takes place around "20,000 AD"...Timelink says "2973"...'

As you say, pretty fuzzy. Personally the only date I can ever remember is humanity leaping through its own solar system in the year 5,000, but as that contradicts EVERY WHO STORY EVER it's not much help.

Graham Williams in DWM: 'I've always thought that the Time Lords were such childish and irresponsible old codgers - that's why the Doctor got fed up with them, after all!' I was just nodding enthusiastic approval when he went on, 'They haven't got the youth, vigour or courage to have any kind of religious conviction -' sorry, WHAT the hell has youth, vigour or courage got to do with RELIGION? '- I certainly don't think they could cope with the idea of God' - oh they could COPE alright. A certain amount of pointing and laughing might go on during said 'coping', of course, 'so instead they fall back on a folk hero like Rassilon as some sort of intellectual purity to put in His place' - er, aside from the fact that half the legends about Rassilon suggested that he was locked in that Tower due to his great cruelty...

'Borusa's explanation for his treachery in this story is rather odd. He doesn't want to die before his work as President of Gallifrey is finished. What work? To build more silly water features? To ensure that all Time Lords have identical furnishings from British Home Stores circa 1982? It's an obvious bluff. Borusa is clearly a closet Doctor Who fan, and has long harboured the secret desire to mount a team-up involving all the Doctors, assistants and monsters. He's nothing but a deranged convention organiser. Look at his frustration when Tom Baker pulls out at the last minute' - Gareth Roberts in DWM. Best explanation for Five Doctors EVER.

Taking of Planet 5:

'All the best of his people went mad in the end - mad, bad or dangerous to know. Omega, Rassilon, even Borusa, all lost it in the pressure cooker of a society cursed with infinite power. That kind of responsibility was impossible to take, so most Time Lords survived by being so narrow-minded, so dull-witted, that they never considered the sheer terror of the possibilities open to them. A visionary Gallifreyan was almost a contradiction in terms, and a stable visionary Gallifreyan was even rarer; the wideness of the horizons before him could engulf him in the end. Mavericks, all of them, fleeing out into the universe or into themselves, curling into a comforting ball of delusion.' - Interesting. I have the feeling RTG read this book, and some of it leaked into New Who.

Philip Hinchcliffe in DWM: '[War Games] was quite good in the way that it handled the Time Lords, making them sort of all powerful monks. But Bob [Holmes] hated the Time Lords - he thought they were a weak bunch, so he did a different version' - sorry, you can't just DO A DIFFERENT VERSION if you don't like a species! And your response to thinking Time Lords were weak is to make them EVEN WEAKER?

Ooh, more Invasion of Time notes have surfaced:

'You talk always of surrender, are all your tribe like this?' 'We are rational' 'You are cowards!' - Hear, hear.

'You and the other Time Lords are singularly logical. You're also short on humour and imagination.' - Frankly they've never struck ME as particularly logical EITHER.

If Gallifrey's got two suns, how come Leela and Rodan only have one shadow each?

Rodan's never eaten flesh or fruit? I thought in Five Docs they were waving some fruit at Five as refreshment?

The President has no power under the constitution to order the Chancellor to do anything??!!

'What a splendidly subservient Capitol you do run, Castellan' - yeah, that's pretty much what Leela just said. COWARDS!

'There's no help out there' - the CASTELLAN doesn't know about the Shobogans-or-however-you-spell-'em? And yet Rodan has heard rumours about 'em?

That sky doesn't look very orange.

If Gallifrey's got two suns, how come Leela and Rodan only have one shadow each?

There are two ways a planet can have two suns. The stars can be close together, with the planet orbiting both of them - as if we had a pair of stars inside Mercury's orbit - or the planet can orbit just one of them, with the other a lot further out. If the sun the planet's orbiting is the cooler of the two, both suns can end up appearing equally bright.

Having only one shadow pretty much rules out the first case. Gallifrey's second sun must be orbiting at significant distance - the equivalent of beyond Neptune would do. When the second sun and Gallifrey are on the same side of the first sun, Time Lords will only have one shadow, and perpetual sunlight; when the second sun is on the opposite side of the first to Gallifrey, the planet will have normal enough nights, but double shadows.

Rodan's never eaten flesh or fruit? I thought in Five Docs they were waving some fruit at Five as refreshment?

An indication that Gallifrey doesn't have a completely uniform culture. Just as Earth has clubs of vegetarians and meat-lovers, so does Gallifrey.

The President has no power under the constitution to order the Chancellor to do anything??!!

Division of powers, not that unusual. The US president can't order the US Supreme Court or Congress to do anything, just ask politely. The Chancellor's position is a bit different, but independence of the President can still make sense as a safeguard against Presidents trying to seize absolute power through legal coups.

When was it first established that Galifrey had two suns? I can't remember anymore.

Gallifrey's second sun must be orbiting at significant distance - the equivalent of beyond Neptune would do. When the second sun and Gallifrey are on the same side of the first sun, Time Lords will only have one shadow, and perpetual sunlight; when the second sun is on the opposite side of the first to Gallifrey, the planet will have normal enough nights, but double shadows.

Am totally failing to get my head round this. Does it match with Ten saying 'The second sun would rise in the south and the mountains would shine'?

Division of powers, not that unusual. The US president can't order the US Supreme Court or Congress to do anything, just ask politely. The Chancellor's position is a bit different, but independence of the President can still make sense as a safeguard against Presidents trying to seize absolute power through legal coups.

Frankly between this and the 'High Council must be unanimous' rules they're DRIVING their Presidents to megalomania.

When was it first established that Galifrey had two suns?

Gridlock.

Does it match with Ten saying 'The second sun would rise in the south and the mountains would shine'?

It does. That just means the Doctor was living in Gallifrey's northern hemisphere.

There are more complicated possibilities consistent with the evidence too, but they can be safely ignored until we see something that contradicts the simpler explanations.

Having only one shadow pretty much rules out the first case.

Not necessarily. Whenever the two suns line up one behind the other as seen from Gallifrey, then they would only cast a single shadow.

Am totally failing to get my head round this. Does it match with Ten saying 'The second sun would rise in the south and the mountains would shine'?

That would be possible, but Gallifrey would have to orbit one of the suns, with the other sun orbiting in a different plane. Then there could be times when Gallifrey's second sun would rise in the south and stay pretty low on the horizon, casting its light on the mountains and making them shine. If you've ever witnessed a sunrise over the mountains on Earth, you'd probably remember it as a quite magical event. There are people who earn a living imagining and painting otherwordly scenes like that.

Whenever the two suns line up one behind the other as seen from Gallifrey, then they would only cast a single shadow.

Hence the 'pretty much' For the suns to line up like that would happen at most every few days, the period of their mutual orbit, and could much rarer, if Gallifrey isn't orbiting in the same plane. If, on the other hand, the second sun is comfortably outside Gallifrey's orbit of the first sun, getting just one shadow will happen roughly half the time, rather than at best, a couple of minutes every few days, making that second case the way to bet.

That would be possible, but Gallifrey would have to orbit one of the suns, with the other sun orbiting in a different plane.

A different plane is only needed if you take south literally. Live far enough north, and the sun will rise south-by-southeast, even if all three bodies are in the same plane - and the Doctor might well call south-by-southeast south.

Moderator's Note: moved from the Novels: Sixth Doctor: Mission Impractical thread:

The Time Lords seemed blissfully unaware of the fact that half the universe got wiped out thanks to the Master and/or Doctor - at least, they never bloody MENTIONED it, even during genocide trials...

So, getting back to the original point, even if they had Seven's Tardis bugged, they probably wouldn't notice him using the Hand of Omega.

Ah, but Logopolis happened BEFORE they bugged the TARDIS. Once it's bugged, and once Trial lets the cat out of the bag that it's bugged, the whole of Gallifrey would be watching the videos of Theta Sigma's Exciting Adventures. They'd TOTALLY spot him blowing up a star.

But would any of them been happy knowing that a weapon of mass destruction was on their Tardis, or buried somewhere Seven had left it, as bait for the Sontarans?

Well, Doctors 2-6 inclusive seemed PERFECTLY HAPPY that a weapon of mass destruction was buried somewhere One had left it.

On the other hand, Omega DID get trapped in a black hole

Surely that was because of Rassilon's sabotage, not a flaw in Omega's design.

LIES, ALL LIES! Rassilon was very quick to nick the credit for the Time-Lord-civilisation-creating black hole under the floorboards, but there's NO on-screen indication that Omega was ACTUALLY betrayed by anyone, let alone Rassilon.

The Doctor would never DREAM of constructing such a weapon of mass destruction!

Nine did more than dream. He built something capable of killing everything on the planet with a brain, and only changed his mind about using it at the last moment.

THAT was a last-minute lash-up in the fact of an imminent threat to the universe - and it would have killed the Doctor along with everyone else. Deliberately constructing some WMD with all the time in the world and no immediate enemy right in front of him would have been even more totally unDoctorish than doing sensible things like carrying a large gun and a TARDIS remote control.

Once it's bugged, and once Trial lets the cat out of the bag that it's bugged, the whole of Gallifrey would be watching the videos of Theta Sigma's Exciting Adventures.

Would the High Council really allow that? After all, next to the Doctor, they'd look like a bunch of non-entities. The Doctor's Gallifreyan fans would rise up, and demand the planet be remade in his image, which the High Council wouldn't like.

More likely, they selected some easily pressured Time Lord to write them summaries of the videos, and kept that Time Lord in solitary confinement, so he couldn't contaminate the rest of Gallifrey. Naturally, this lucky fellow soon decided to edit the reports he wrote for the High Council, omitting anything that the Doctor wouldn't want them to know about.

Well, Doctors 2-6 inclusive seemed PERFECTLY HAPPY that a weapon of mass destruction was buried somewhere One had left it.

Which is odd in itself. Two couldn't steer the Tardis well enough to find it, but if Three had been able to dig it up, it would probably have been very helpful in repairing his Tardis - and when he couldn't find it, he'd be pretty worried, unless Seven left him a note.

there's NO on-screen indication that Omega was ACTUALLY betrayed by anyone, let alone Rassilon.

They don't spell it out, true, but it's suspiciously convenient that Omega got trapped, and Rassilon ended up in charge, with his name plastered over everything in sight. Nor does Rassilon seem like someone who'd have moral qualms about sabotaging his friend's experiment.

Once it's bugged, and once Trial lets the cat out of the bag that it's bugged, the whole of Gallifrey would be watching the videos of Theta Sigma's Exciting Adventures.

Would the High Council really allow that? After all, next to the Doctor, they'd look like a bunch of non-entities.

Yeah, but then they ARE a bunch of non-entities and there's not a lot they can do about it (well, except bang their heads against the nearest wall in the hope they'll regenerate into something more interesting, I suppose, though as interesting people on the High Council are invariably genocidal megalomaniacs it would be a risky strategy).

But the point is, the new post-revolutionary High Council wouldn't DARE to ban Doctor Who On TV for fear of getting overthrown and put up against the nearest wall and shot like the last lot.*

After all, the mere thought that the Worst Doctor Ever, wearing THAT COAT, might be being treated unfairly was enough to inspire the one-and-only-as-far-as-we-know revolution in Gallifrey's history. (Unless someone who's seen Trial a lot more recently can come up with another explanation for it.) Once they've seen some REAL Who then they'll blow up the Eye of Harmony before allowing such joy to be prised from their cold, dead fingers...

(...Speaking of which, I think Who fans on THIS planet should be making plans for demonstrations/revolution/terrorism/civil war...just in case. I'm not going gently into that good night the next time the BBC fancies another SLABYOD. Anyone got any military experience...? Aha! Mandy - care to draw up a campaign strategy?)

The Doctor's Gallifreyan fans would rise up, and demand the planet be remade in his image, which the High Council wouldn't like.

I think you're forgetting...It's COLIN BAKER.

More likely, they selected some easily pressured Time Lord to write them summaries of the videos, and kept that Time Lord in solitary confinement, so he couldn't contaminate the rest of Gallifrey.

Ah, but after a few weeks' exposure to the Doctor's adventures, the 'easily pressured' Time Lord would break out of solitary confinement and bring the True Word to Gallifrey's masses (um...assuming Gallifrey HAS masses). Exposure to the Doctor MAKES PEOPLE BETTER. Even when they're 'Loser' Mickey and 'Pringles' Donna and 'Slapper' Jackie...

Doctors 2-6 inclusive seemed PERFECTLY HAPPY that a weapon of mass destruction was buried somewhere One had left it.

Which is odd in itself.

You can bloody well say THAT again.

if Three had been able to dig it up, it would probably have been very helpful in repairing his Tardis - and when he couldn't find it, he'd be pretty worried, unless Seven left him a note.

Though we don't KNOW how much of his memory was affected by the Time Lords as part of his sentence. (Sometimes it seems an enormous amount, sometimes nothing at all.) It's possible that wiping his memory of TARDIS codes had the side-effect of wiping his memory of various other oblong all-powerful time-travelling bigger-on-the-inside stuff.

it's suspiciously convenient that Omega got trapped, and Rassilon ended up in charge, with his name plastered over everything in sight.

*Sigh* True...

Nor does Rassilon seem like someone who'd have moral qualms about sabotaging his friend's experiment.

Whatever his lack of morality, Rassilon's overriding aim was the survival of his species. And when said species had just produced the universe's greatest genius, it would be pretty stupid to off him before Gallifrey had its moneys-worth out of him. Unless Rassilon was absolutely sure that he and Omega were heading for a punch-up of civil war proportions, which is unlikely as surely Omega could take the scientific sphere and Rassilon the political? Rassilon obviously already had the best PR people, so he'd know that his place in history was assured (quite apart from also acquiring immortality).

*Well, I can HOPE.

I'm not going gently into that good night the next time the BBC fancies another SLABYOD.

Considering recent events, that decision may not even be in the BBC's hands.

the 'easily pressured' Time Lord would break out of solitary confinement and bring the True Word to Gallifrey's masses

'Easily pressured' because they have video of him doing something utterly abhorrent, like kicking kittens, which would get him lynched if the masses ever found out, and which would certainly discredit any attempts he made to spread the word of the Doctor's glories.

Though we don't KNOW how much of his memory was affected by the Time Lords as part of his sentence.

However much they edited, they restored it all after he saved them from Omega.

Whatever his lack of morality, Rassilon's overriding aim was the survival of his species.

You sure about that? I always got the impression his ultimate aim was self-deification. The survival of the Time Lords was just a means to that hand, providing a planet full of useful idiots to worship him.

Someone like that would naturally assume Omega was just like him, and act accordingly (since they think it's only stupidity that stops everyone grabbing for ultimate power).

I'm not going gently into that good night the next time the BBC fancies another SLABYOD.

Considering recent events, that decision may not even be in the BBC's hands.

Yeah *sigh* maybe Mandy had better come up with TWO battle-plans: one where we storm the BBC and put 'em all to the sword and one where we DEFEND the BBC with our own lives from Government tanks...

'Easily pressured' because they have video of him doing something utterly abhorrent, like kicking kittens, which would get him lynched if the masses ever found out, and which would certainly discredit any attempts he made to spread the word of the Doctor's glories.

Ah, BUT he could just claim that all the 'evidence' was faked. After the fake Trial footage everyone'll believe him, or at least give the benefit of the doubt to anyone who'll provide them with brand new Who.

However much they edited, they restored it all after he saved them from Omega.

By which time he'd no longer need the Hand to help him kick-start the TARDIS, and no longer be interested in any petty WMD problems Earth might be having when he's got the whole UNIVERSE to explore...

Plus, let's face it, the chances of the Time Lords doing a good and efficient job of seamlessly restoring ALL the memories they stole is somewhat...remote.

Whatever his lack of morality, Rassilon's overriding aim was the survival of his species.

You sure about that? I always got the impression his ultimate aim was self-deification. The survival of the Time Lords was just a means to that hand, providing a planet full of useful idiots to worship him.

I think if he'd been THAT interested in being worshipped, he'd've spread the Cult of Rassilon across the stars and NOT allowed himself to be shut up in a Tower for a millennia-long snooze.

And bear in mind we don't KNOW how many of those 'Of Rassilon' objects were named by HIM and how many by pathetic Time Lords with centuries of boredom to fill with fetishism.

Someone like that would naturally assume Omega was just like him, and act accordingly (since they think it's only stupidity that stops everyone grabbing for ultimate power).

Trouble is, we only know Omega after he was driven nuts by several thousand years of black holes, gel guards, non-existence, etc. For all we know he could have been the typical (well, typical in the Whoniverse anyway) absent-minded professor type, who even paranoid megalomaniacs could see would be PERFECTLY HAPPY tinkering in their lab, creating the next universe-shattering scienfic advances, and doing whatever they're told by the nearest Fascist in a Kettlewell-style manner.

Yeah *sigh* maybe Mandy had better come up with TWO battle-plans: one where we storm the BBC and put 'em all to the sword ...

Especially since one suggestion I've seen floated is bringing Michael Grade back, as a 'safe pair of hands'. We know just how safe Dr Who would be in his hands, from sad history.

Ah, BUT he could just claim that all the 'evidence' was faked.

There must be ways of proving footage isn't faked, or no one on Gallifrey would believe anything they saw.

By which time he'd no longer need the Hand to help him kick-start the TARDIS, and no longer be interested in any petty WMD problems Earth might be having when he's got the whole UNIVERSE to explore...

And yet, he spent a couple of years repeatedly visiting Unit, even after he got his exile lifted. He can't have been that keen on exploring.

I think if he'd been THAT interested in being worshipped, he'd've spread the Cult of Rassilon across the stars

If he got the chance, and if he had, we might not know. That would have happened when Gallifrey was young, a time long forgotten by everyone but the Time Lords. However, it's just as likely that the early Time Lords tricked him into getting stuck in his tower.

he could have been the typical (well, typical in the Whoniverse anyway) absent-minded professor type...

The he wouldn't have called his stellar manipulator the Hand of Omega, or had the kind of fans who'd do it for him.

Especially since one suggestion I've seen floated is bringing Michael Grade back, as a 'safe pair of hands'. We know just how safe Dr Who would be in his hands, from sad history.

To be fair to Michael Grade, he DID issue a public and grovelling apology saying how much he loved New Who.

Obviously this shouldn't save him from being hanged by the neck until dead, but as a gracious gesture I was thinking of doing away with the 'drawing and quartering' part of his sentence.

There must be ways of proving footage isn't faked, or no one on Gallifrey would believe anything they saw.

Given that most of what they see on TV involves the Fourth Doctor assassinating the President, the Sixth Doctor bwahaha-ing as he ties his Companion to the rocks, and the Master being a democratic hero, why SHOULD they believe anything they see?

And yet, he spent a couple of years repeatedly visiting Unit, even after he got his exile lifted. He can't have been that keen on exploring.

OBVIOUSLY the poor dear was suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.

Either that or he was secretly in love with the Brigadier. It's not as stupid as it sounds - Eleven SAID that the first person you saw after regenerating was seared on your hearts forever. And he DID try to top himself the second he heard the Brig was a gonner. Not to mention the fact he abruptly dumped the Brig and scarpered, just as he did with most others he loved - Sarah Jane, Rose, Romana II...

I think if he'd been THAT interested in being worshipped, he'd've spread the Cult of Rassilon across the stars

If he got the chance, and if he had, we might not know. That would have happened when Gallifrey was young, a time long forgotten by everyone but the Time Lords.

And the Vampires, and the Carrionites, and the Racnoss, and the Guardians, and the Eternals, and Fenric, and the gods of Ragnarok, all of whom we've met and none of whom mentioned old Rassy.

However, it's just as likely that the early Time Lords tricked him into getting stuck in his tower.

I don't see Rassilon as STAYING stuck in that Tower unless he actually WANTED to be. Which would imply he's not much of a power-crazed dictator. He still had freedom enough to set up the Game of Rassilon immortality trap - he could just as easily have set up a get-me-out-of-jail Cunning Plan instead. Or engineered a big war that would get the Time Lords BEGGING him to lead them again. Or just telepathically contacted the local weak-minded hero-worshipping nutter on the High Council asking to be let out.

The he wouldn't have called his stellar manipulator the Hand of Omega, or had the kind of fans who'd do it for him.

I like to think that was a generous gesture on Rassilon's part.

why SHOULD they believe anything they see?

By that logic, they wouldn't believe the footage of the Doctor being heroic.

OBVIOUSLY the poor dear was suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.

True, but that still leaves a year or two when Three had his memory back, so could have gone to London to dig up the Hand - and since Seven remembered where it was, the Time Lords can't have messed up restoring Three's memory.

And the Vampires, and the Carrionites, [etc] all of whom we've met and none of whom mentioned old Rassy.

With two exceptions, they were only interested in talking about themselves, and their 'inevitable' victory over the Doctor. None of them would be likely to mention Rassilon; it would undercut their pretensions.

As for the exceptions, the Great Vampire didn't get to speak at all; the first appearance of the White Guardian is widely suspected to be the Black in disguise, and in Enlightenment he was too weak to waste time reminiscing about the old days.

I don't see Rassilon as STAYING stuck in that Tower unless he actually WANTED to be. Which would imply he's not much of a power-crazed dictator.

And yet we saw the way he acted in End of Time, hardly democratic. Perhaps he was sulking, annoyed that the Time Lords had rejected his rule.

Or engineered a big war that would get the Time Lords BEGGING him to lead them again.

Hmm, could Rassilon be responsible for Davros as well as the Master, reaching out from his tomb to warp an innocent scientist into a genocidal genius, just to ignite a war that would lead to Rassilon's freedom?

Probably not, but only probably. I don't quite think we can rule that possibility out completely. If the script writers ever get desperate, we could yet see the Master and Davros sitting in some space pub, bonding over their shared hatred of Rassilon, the maniac who made them the twisted madmen they are - then, after a few pints, they come up with a plan to avenge themselves on him.

I like to think that was a generous gesture on Rassilon's part.

A generous interpretation on your part, but then facts are pretty thin on the ground. We'll never really know, unless the Doctor manages to visit the early days of Gallifrey, when Rassilon and Omega were at their height.

By that logic, they wouldn't believe the footage of the Doctor being heroic.

They don't need to BELIEVE it! Plenty of Who fans on this planet don't even believe the Doctor exists!!

and since Seven remembered where it was, the Time Lords can't have messed up restoring Three's memory.

It may have taken him a few centuries to recall. The Doc's a bit absent-minded at the best of times. Remember that knot in his hankie in Face of Evil? It could have been to remind him to pick up the Hand of Omega. (Or Sarah Jane Smith, of course.)

And the Vampires, and the Carrionites, [etc] all of whom we've met and none of whom mentioned old Rassy.

With two exceptions, they were only interested in talking about themselves, and their 'inevitable' victory over the Doctor. None of them would be likely to mention Rassilon; it would undercut their pretensions.

It wouldn't have undercut their pretensions to describe the Doctor as a Rassilon-worshipping loser, or some such insult.

And yet we saw the way he acted in End of Time, hardly democratic.

Oh, of course, but THAT was at the end of a VERY long and unpleasant War - which drove even the Doctor to genocide.

Perhaps he was sulking, annoyed that the Time Lords had rejected his rule.

He generally prefers to express his annoyance by vaporising people with his big glove, not by SULKING.

we could yet see the Master and Davros sitting in some space pub, bonding over their shared hatred of Rassilon, the maniac who made them the twisted madmen they are

But they LOVE being twisted madmen! They ought to buy Rassilon a pint! (Not that he IS responsible for Davros, of course.)

They don't need to BELIEVE it! Plenty of Who fans on this planet don't even believe the Doctor exists!!

But we're all human. presumably. We can be inspired by admitted fiction, without having to believe in it.. The Time Lords seem a lot less imaginative; they might well have to believe it true first.

It wouldn't have undercut their pretensions to describe the Doctor as a Rassilon-worshipping loser, or some such insult.

It would when he refuted their lies. You only have to look at the Doctor to know that, like cats, he's too magnificent to worship anyone, so claiming he worships Rassilon is obviously bound to fail.

Oh, of course, but THAT was at the end of a VERY long and unpleasant War

The Time War may have lasted centuries, but Rassilon has been around for millions of years, perhaps billions. For him, it's not a long war, but a short scuffle.

He generally prefers to express his annoyance by vaporising people with his big glove, not by SULKING.

He could have bipolar disorder, aka manic depression. In his manic centuries he makes grandiose schemes to stamp his name upon the universe, but then he crashes down into utter despair - huddling under the bed clothes, wishing the cruel world would just go away and leave him alone.

But they LOVE being twisted madmen! They ought to buy Rassilon a pint!

The Master didn't exactly seem grateful in End of Time, probably because it means he's not the master of his own mind. Much as they love being twisted madmen, they would both hate the idea of anyone else daring to tamper with their minds, reducing them to mere pawns in a greater game.

But we're all human. presumably.

Well not ALL of us, don't forget Eccy's 'He's gay and she's an alien' comment, not to mention all those aliens who are always visiting Cardiff for some reason ('Have you seen a blow-fish driving a sports car?')...frankly it's surprising End of Time only provided us with FOUR people unaffected by the Master Race.

We can be inspired by admitted fiction, without having to believe in it.. The Time Lords seem a lot less imaginative; they might well have to believe it true first.

Well, in Romana's day maybe Time Tots just got factual books (well, as factual as Time Lord history actually is, i.e. not very) but when the Doctor was in his cradle they were blessed with The Dalek Emperor's New Clothes and Snow White and the Seven Keys to Doomsday, neither of which sounds entirely...non-fictional.

It wouldn't have undercut their pretensions to describe the Doctor as a Rassilon-worshipping loser, or some such insult.

It would when he refuted their lies.

It's not a lie! He claims to have a case of hero-worship over Omega in Three Doctors, no doubt he did at SOME point over Rassilon as well.

(Oh, OK, maybe he SHOULD have known a bit more about Rassilon's Vampire-fighting exploits. Hmm. I shall think about this.)

You only have to look at the Doctor to know that, like cats, he's too magnificent to worship anyone, so claiming he worships Rassilon is obviously bound to fail.

He TOTALLY gets wild worshipful crushes on people, though - Shakespeare, Dickens, Madame de Pompadour, Agatha Christie, Professor Yana...

The Time War may have lasted centuries, but Rassilon has been around for millions of years, perhaps billions. For him, it's not a long war, but a short scuffle.

He's been ASLEEP for most of that. He took the Time War VERY SERIOUSLY INDEED, what with trying to destroy the universe and all.

He could have bipolar disorder, aka manic depression. In his manic centuries he makes grandiose schemes to stamp his name upon the universe, but then he crashes down into utter despair - huddling under the bed clothes, wishing the cruel world would just go away and leave him alone.

That would be the PERFECT explanation if only Rassilon hadn't been so •••• CHIRPY during his brief awakening in what SHOULD have been a TOTALLY depressive millennium.

The Master didn't exactly seem grateful in End of Time, probably because it means he's not the master of his own mind.

Oh, absolutely, but the Master was having a REALLY BAD DAY. Most of the time the tinnitus is annoying, yes, but not so annoying that he EVER GAVE IT A MOMENT'S THOUGHT during his first fifteen or so incarnations...

Much as they love being twisted madmen, they would both hate the idea of anyone else daring to tamper with their minds, reducing them to mere pawns in a greater game.

Yes...but if you gave 'em the choice to be unmeddled-with goodies instead they'd laugh in your face.

when the Doctor was in his cradle they were blessed with The Dalek Emperor's New Clothes and Snow White and the Seven Keys to Doomsday, neither of which sounds entirely...non-fictional.

To human ears, perhaps, but that's obviously because our folk tales are just twisted reflections of Gallifreyan history.

He TOTALLY gets wild worshipful crushes on people

But he thought all the people you mentioned were humans, unlike Rassilon, and his attitude was a little short of outright worship.

That would be the PERFECT explanation if only Rassilon hadn't been so ���� CHIRPY during his brief awakening

Good point. How long was it for Rassilon between the Five Doctors and the Time War? If it was only a few decades, he might have surfaced from his depression a little before Borusa went mad, and been planning his grand entrance.

First lure Borusa in, to get some good PR, and learn the current state of affairs on Gallifrey. Then stage the Doctor's trial to spark a revolution that eliminates the undesirables. Finally, get the latest high council traitor to start the Time War, so Gallifrey will welcome him back with open arms.

Yes...but if you gave 'em the choice to be unmeddled-with goodies instead they'd laugh in your face.

True, but that wouldn't stop them being angry someone had meddled with their minds. They're twisted madmen; they don't have to be rational.

Finally, get the latest high council traitor to start the Time War, so Gallifrey will welcome him back with open arms.

The Time Lords starting the Time War, for whatever reason, would have been totally out of character. It was the Daleks who started it. Rassilon merely recognized the great opportunity it provided him, and like all great megalomaniacs, he never imagined that he could lose.

our folk tales are just twisted reflections of Gallifreyan history.

Hmm. Possible, but it's just as likely that THEY nicked OURS. Just as they may have nicked Voga's symbol rather than vice-versa. They've got time-travel, they can CHEAT. Plus plenty of fairy stories have strong female characters, which would be pretty unlikely if they originated on Gallifrey.

He TOTALLY gets wild worshipful crushes on people

But he thought all the people you mentioned were humans, unlike Rassilon, and his attitude was a little short of outright worship.

The Doctor wouldn't be a RACIST and refuse to worship someone just because they weren't human! And honestly, Eccy told Dickens he was his Number One Fan - what MORE do you want? Prostration?

How long was it for Rassilon between the Five Doctors and the Time War? If it was only a few decades, he might have surfaced from his depression a little before Borusa went mad, and been planning his grand entrance.

It's widely accepted that the same number of years pass for Gallifrey as for the Doctor. So if he's 760-ish in Five Docs and 900 in Aliens of London then - carefully ignoring Time and the Rani, because who WOULDN'T - yeah, the dates would work quite well. Plenty of manic depressives have a quite slow curve from suicidal to manic when they can enjoy being mildly happy before they start blowing thousands of quid in a weekend and ripping all their clothes off in public - sorry, I'm thinking of my uncle, in Rassilon's case it would be more along the lines of making a gradual transition from eternal sleep (viz, not being arsed to get up in the mornings, or, indeed, at all) to having a FANTASTIC time running a war, stomping excitedly over the entire universe and vaporising everyone who disagrees with you.

First lure Borusa in, to get some good PR, and learn the current state of affairs on Gallifrey. Then stage the Doctor's trial to spark a revolution that eliminates the undesirables.

I honestly think that the sight of the SIXTH Doctor unjustly on trial (well, actually JUSTLY on trial, the git did commit genocide) sparking a revolution was utterly bizarre and totally unforeseeable even by the Matrix. I mean, I'd gladly get skinned alive if Four, Nine or Ten fancied a human-skin-hearth-rug but lifting a finger for COLIN...I DON'T think so!

Finally, get the latest high council traitor to start the Time War, so Gallifrey will welcome him back with open arms.

I'm pretty sure that striding into the Capitol saying 'I'm the...er...Rassilon of Rassilon' would be enough for him to get the top job without provoking an unnecessary and extremely high-risk war with the Daleks.

Yes...but if you gave 'em the choice to be unmeddled-with goodies instead they'd laugh in your face.

True, but that wouldn't stop them being angry someone had meddled with their minds. They're twisted madmen; they don't have to be rational.

Actually it IS kinda rational to be pissed off if someone's screwed with your mind and/or planet's thousand-year war. I'm frequently incandescent with rage over World War I and the Norman Conquest, despite knowing that I - and practically everyone else in my country - wouldn't exist if it wasn't for these particular abominations.

The Time Lords starting the Time War, for whatever reason, would have been totally out of character. It was the Daleks who started it.

Hear hear!

Though of course it WOULD have been ENTIRELY in character if the Time Lords had accidentally started the Time War through negligence. (The books suggest that the Great Vampires came through the tear in time that the Time Lords created in their early experiments, for example.)

And, after all, all the official Encyclopedias and RTG-penned articles in Annuals and suchlike claim the Daleks started the Last Great Time War because they were so pissed off about the Time Lords' attempt to throttle 'em at birth in Genesis.

Rassilon merely recognized the great opportunity it provided him, and like all great megalomaniacs, he never imagined that he could lose.

The fact he's planning on wiping out the universe suggests to ME at least that Rassilon knew he was losing pretty badly...

Plus plenty of fairy stories have strong female characters, which would be pretty unlikely if they originated on Gallifrey.

You sure about that? Certainly, most of the Time Lords we saw were male, but that doesn't necessarily imply the females were kept chained to the kitchen sink. It's equally possible that only one in a hundred Gallifreyans is born female, with massive implications for their culture.

The Doctor wouldn't be a RACIST and refuse to worship someone just because they weren't human!

So why have we never seen him singing the praises of someone who knew wasn't human - or am I forgetting something?

I'm pretty sure that striding into the Capitol saying 'I'm the...er...Rassilon of Rassilon' would be enough for him to get the top job

True, but he might enjoy overcomplicated plans, like the Master. It's a way of indulging pride - they can tell themselves that their insanely complex plans prove their genius - and Rassilon is not short on pride.

Though of course it WOULD have been ENTIRELY in character if the Time Lords had accidentally started the Time War through negligence.

Also true. Blow up a few stars to celebrate Rassilon's return - because everyone loves fireworks - and you can make a lot of enemies

Hmm. Possible, but it's just as likely that THEY nicked OURS.

More than likely in fact. I don't think the Time Lords have enough imagination to come up with the concept of fairy tales. After the metacrisis turned Donna into Donna-Doctor, the combination of human creativity and Time Lord intelligence allowed her to do things that astonished even the Doctor.

The fact he's planning on wiping out the universe suggests to ME at least that Rassilon knew he was losing pretty badly...

It suggest to me that he still didn't get it and expected ultimate victory to be his. You pointed out many times how idiotic it was for him to let the Doctor do his little dance with the revolver instead of dispatching him at once, as he would have done had his ego not stood in the way.

Plus plenty of fairy stories have strong female characters, which would be pretty unlikely if they originated on Gallifrey.

You sure about that?

YES.

Certainly, most of the Time Lords we saw were male

Make that ALL of them, in War Games and Three Docs and Deadly Assassin...

but that doesn't necessarily imply the females were kept chained to the kitchen sink.

No, it's the fact that THE DOCTOR tells SARAH JANE that it's good there's a woman around so she can make the tea, AND that any logical deductions she makes are surprisingly logical for one of the fair sex that makes me feel he comes from a really, REALLY, sexist society.

It's equally possible that only one in a hundred Gallifreyans is born female, with massive implications for their culture.

Yeah, Infinity Doctors implied there's a lot less females, but it also implied they're grossly discriminated against...

The Doctor wouldn't be a RACIST and refuse to worship someone just because they weren't human!

So why have we never seen him singing the praises of someone who knew wasn't human - or am I forgetting something?

You're forgetting the Doctor worshipping the ground Omega treads on! (Admittedly shortly before blowing Omega to Kingdom Come, but that's a) beside the point and b) didn't actually do Omega any harm...)

he might enjoy overcomplicated plans, like the Master.

Well I haven't noticed Rassilon dressing up as an oriental magician for no readily apparent reason, so I think we can rule THAT out.

I don't think the Time Lords have enough imagination to come up with the concept of fairy tales. After the metacrisis turned Donna into Donna-Doctor, the combination of human creativity and Time Lord intelligence allowed her to do things that astonished even the Doctor.

Ooh, VERY good point.

The fact he's planning on wiping out the universe suggests to ME at least that Rassilon knew he was losing pretty badly...

It suggest to me that he still didn't get it and expected ultimate victory to be his.

Would anyone REALLY try to turn themselves into pure thought unless they knew the physical war was lost? Rassilon seems to ENJOY his physicality - vaporising people, spitting at them, etc...

You pointed out many times how idiotic it was for him to let the Doctor do his little dance with the revolver instead of dispatching him at once, as he would have done had his ego not stood in the way.

It might not be HIS ego that stopped him. He might be just like the rest of us - prepared to gamble the future of his species for the sake of ONE MORE MINUTE to see what Our Hero is up to...

THE DOCTOR tells SARAH JANE that it's good there's a woman around so she can make the tea, AND that any logical deductions she makes are surprisingly logical for one of the fair sex

And yet, Romana hardly treated the Doctor with cringing deference; she rightly acted as though women were every bit men's equal, if not superior. Clearly then, the Doctor was just teasing Sarah Jane.

Well I haven't noticed Rassilon dressing up as an oriental magician for no readily apparent reason, so I think we can rule THAT out.

By that logic, you'd have ruled it out for the Master for his entire first incarnation. Since the Master would go on to do just that the logic becomes questionable.

Would anyone REALLY try to turn themselves into pure thought unless they knew the physical war was lost?

So they can destroy the old universe, and build a new and better one.

And yet, Romana hardly treated the Doctor with cringing deference; she rightly acted as though women were every bit men's equal, if not superior.

Until the end of her first episode, whereupon she was screaming her lungs out.

OK, so being around MOST Gallifreyan men hadn't given her an inferiority complex, but then being one of the first women in a ten-million- and/or one-billion-year civilisation WOULD give you a feeling of smug superiority, especially once (judging by the new series, anyway) men had finally worked out that women were good for more than being glorified traffic controllers, and might actually have SEX with them...

Clearly then, the Doctor was just teasing Sarah Jane.

Well it WASN'T VERY FUNNY.

Also, how did he KNOW she was a 'Woman's Libber'? She hadn't given one of her embarrassing 'I'm a Woman's Libber!' speeches when he started...teasing...her.

Well I haven't noticed Rassilon dressing up as an oriental magician for no readily apparent reason, so I think we can rule THAT out.

By that logic, you'd have ruled it out for the Master for his entire first incarnation. Since the Master would go on to do just that the logic becomes questionable.

Well, by 'oriential magician' I OBVIOUSLY also meant 'Adjudicator' 'Mad Scientist' 'Rationalist Existentialist Priest' etc etc as well...

Would anyone REALLY try to turn themselves into pure thought unless they knew the physical war was lost?

So they can destroy the old universe, and build a new and better one.

I didn't notice anything about a 'new and better one'...I just noticed a lot of stuff about I WILL NOT DIE.

Plus, Rassilon must have noticed by now that his fellow Time Lords are REALLY REALLY BORING. (The ones who aren't stark raving bonkers, that is.) No wonder he was so happy to spend millions of years snoozing, just to avoid them. Who'd want to spend eternity with THAT lot if they weren't REALLY desperate?

Well it WASN'T VERY FUNNY.

The Doctor doesn't always quite get us humans, and he had recently spent a lot of time around soldiers.

Also, how did he KNOW she was a 'Woman's Libber'?

She had presumably managed to get stories published before she joined up with the Doctor, stories he could have read, and he is mildly telepathic. Knowing the basics about her personality wouldn't be difficult.

Plus, Rassilon must have noticed by now that his fellow Time Lords are REALLY REALLY BORING

Which will be why he didn't mention the 'new and better' bit in front of them. They might ask for details, and they wouldn't have liked what they heard. In Rassilon's new and improved universe, the Master would be considered mind-numbingly dull, compared with the average Time Lord, ensuring plenty of amusement for Rassilon.

Admittedly, Rassilon didn't spell out this plan, but the precise way his eye glinted madly made it obvious what he was secretly thinking.

It's equally possible that only one in a hundred Gallifreyans is born female, with massive implications for their culture.

I think Gallifreyans are born male and female in roughly equal numbers, just like humans are. I just think their society is strongly male oriented, again just like ours, and much fewer females than males make it to the upper echelons of their hierarchy. I would have speculated that "Time Lordiness" is a sex linked genetic condition, like color blindness is for us, but since Time Lords sometimes switch gender when they regenerate, it sorta renders that point moot.

I think Gallifreyans are born male and female in roughly equal numbers, just like humans are.

But is there any actual evidence of this? Even on Earth, there are animals with unequal sex ratios, and Gallifreyan biology is alien. There's no real reason why the numbers should be equal.

I just think their society is strongly male oriented, again just like ours

Clearly, the males are much more visible, but we can't say why. Romana does not act like anyone's ever told her women are less important than men.

The possibility of switching gender at regeneration makes sex discrimination a bit less likely, because the men responsible would know they might become Time Ladies one day.

But is there any actual evidence of this? Even on Earth, there are animals with unequal sex ratios, and Gallifreyan biology is alien. There's no real reason why the numbers should be equal.

Well, in order for a species with so many more males than females to succeed, each female would have to produce a LOT of offsprings.

Romana does not act like anyone's ever told her women are less important than men.

Women who managed to reach positions of power in Time Lord society would not be intimidated by such attitudes. Women like Margaret Tatcher and Hillary Clinton come to mind here on Earth.

Well it WASN'T VERY FUNNY.

The Doctor doesn't always quite get us humans, and he had recently spent a lot of time around soldiers.

The UNIT guys wouldn't DARE be as blatantly sexist as the Doctor.

She had presumably managed to get stories published before she joined up with the Doctor, stories he could have read

I sincerely doubt that the Doctor reads Metropolitan Magazine. (Well, the Old Who Doctors. The New lot'd read anything, even Heat.)

and he is mildly telepathic.

VERY mildly. I don't think it works terribly well for looking at a person and reading their principles. He'd known Yates for years, for instance, yet STILL totally failed to pick up on the fact he was trying to destroy the human race.

Which will be why he didn't mention the 'new and better' bit in front of them. They might ask for details, and they wouldn't have liked what they heard.

I think by NOW they've figured out that asking Rassilon inconvenient questions gets you vaporised. Ditto for telling him you don't like what he's saying. If they're all prepared to vote in favour of wiping out the universe and destroying their own bodies on his say-so, they're not suddenly gonna balk if he promises to create a New Improved Universe into the bargain.

Admittedly, Rassilon didn't spell out this plan, but the precise way his eye glinted madly made it obvious what he was secretly thinking.

Obvious to people with their own mad glints in their eyes, maybe...

I think Gallifreyans are born male and female in roughly equal numbers, just like humans are. I just think their society is strongly male oriented, again just like ours, and much fewer females than males make it to the upper echelons of their hierarchy.

Infinity Doctors is the only book that addresses this, and it's uncanonical even for a PDA. But:

'Everyone knew that women were the equal of men - such a statement bordered on the facile. But no one ever questioned why women rarely applied to the Academy, or why so few of the applications were accepted. Over ten percent of the Gallifreyan population was female, but no more than a dozen of the thousand Time Lords were women.'

Romana does not act like anyone's ever told her women are less important than men.

Christmas on a Rational Planet suggets that Roman's 'one of the Newblood Houses who can change their bodies as easily as their clothes'. Before such upstart Houses arrived there would have been a LOT more sexual discrimination.

Personally - though of course I adore Romana II and can't imagine Who, or indeed my life, without her - I think it might have made more sense for Who - instead of inserting a token Rodan into Gallifrey when it finally dawned on them that it was all MEN, MEN, MEN - had stuck to its guns (and by 'guns' I mean 'inadvertent sexism') and just kept Gallifrey a totally-male society.

The possibility of switching gender at regeneration makes sex discrimination a bit less likely

You would HOPE, but then if you're a male chauvinist pig you'd assume that YOU'D never regenerate into one of those...female things...and sadly you almost certainly wouldn't. Time Lords who aren't the Doctor usually have a lot more control over the process, and it sounds as if the Corsair - the ONLY gender-bending Time Lord we know of - was the sort who'd switch sex for a dare.

Well, in order for a species with so many more males than females to succeed, each female would have to produce a LOT of offsprings.

That would certainly explain where all the women are. Still, I find it hard to picture.

Well, in order for a species with so many more males than females to succeed, each female would have to produce a LOT of offsprings.

Which would be a problem if Time Lords reproduced biologically, but they've had high technology for half the age of the universe, near enough. They can have whatever sex ratio they're comfortable with, without needing the Time Ladies to be constantly pregnant, or to have 20 children at a time.

Women like Margaret Tatcher and Hillary Clinton come to mind here on Earth.

Both pretty forceful. They needed to be, to rise above the crowds of men blocking their way.

Romana is confident enough, but that's not quite the same. Overall, she just doesn't seem a strong enough personality to be able to elbow her way to the top against male opposition.

Romana is confident enough, but that's not quite the same. Overall, she just doesn't seem a strong enough personality to be able to elbow her way to the top against male opposition.

Agreed. Romana seems arrogant at first because she genuinely believes herself infinitely superior to the Doctor, not because she's had to FIGHT her way to the top. If she'd found Gallifrey to be a grossly sexist society she'd no doubt have, like Isobel-in-The-Invasion, shrieked 'Of all the bigoted anti-feminists!' the second the Doctor called her his assistant - only using considerably longer words. And if she WAS used to fighting she wouldn't have screamed her head off at the sight of the Shrievenzale.

The UNIT guys wouldn't DARE be as blatantly sexist as the Doctor.

It was the 70s, and they weren't exactly trendsetters. They'd dare.

I sincerely doubt that the Doctor reads Metropolitan Magazine.

He wouldn't have to read it himself. Jo or Liz could have read some of the articles aloud, ignoring his protests.

Obvious to people with their own mad glints in their eyes, maybe...

Why, do you know any? Certainly, there are no mad glints in my eyes. In fact, when I start explaining the true nature of things, people regularly tell me, and each other, just how marvellously sane I look and sound, and how delightfully rational my ideas are, sometimes at great length.

I think it might have made more sense for Who - instead of inserting a token Rodan into Gallifrey when it finally dawned on them that it was all MEN, MEN, MEN - had stuck to its guns (and by 'guns' I mean 'inadvertent sexism') and just kept Gallifrey a totally-male society.

If I'd been consulted, 99% of Gallifreyans would have been neuter, including the Doctor's first eight regenerations. They might look superficially male to human eyes, but a closer look would show they were actually sexless, and none of them would be able to grow beards. Only 1% of Gallifreyans would be functioning males or females.

And, to anticipate your next objection, the neuters would only look male to human eyes because of their clothes. Strip them naked, and they'd have the physique of a pre-pubescent human and ambiguous genitals. It'd be impossible to say whether they looked more male or female.

After all, Pertwee made a pretty convincing woman when he dressed up - not especially attractive, perhaps, but no worse looking than my aunts.

You would HOPE, but then if you're a male chauvinist pig you'd assume that YOU'D never regenerate into one of those...female things

But you'd know about the history of regenerative accidents, some of them suspiciously convenient. Considering the tangled schemes ambitious Time Lords engage in, it would not be remotely surprising if the third deputy secretary for cultural affairs slipped his boss a drug guaranteed to make him regenerate into a woman, just to get a promotion to second deputy secretary.

The UNIT guys wouldn't DARE be as blatantly sexist as the Doctor.

It was the 70s, and they weren't exactly trendsetters. They'd dare.

Well, I haven't seen 'em do anything worse than comment that that Chinese Captain of the Master's was 'quite a dolly'. And THAT was Yates desperately trying to cover up the blatant fact that he's gay.

I sincerely doubt that the Doctor reads Metropolitan Magazine.

He wouldn't have to read it himself. Jo or Liz could have read some of the articles aloud, ignoring his protests.

Liz would NEVER have done such a thing! (Jo, on the other hand...mind you, he never takes the blindest bit of notice when she's blathering on about Atlantis or the Age of Aquarius or the latest nonsense-she-got-from-a-magazine.)

Certainly, there are no mad glints in my eyes. In fact, when I start explaining the true nature of things, people regularly tell me, and each other, just how marvellously sane I look and sound, and how delightfully rational my ideas are, sometimes at great length.

Would they be...backing slowly away at the time, perchance?

If I'd been consulted, 99% of Gallifreyans would have been neuter, including the Doctor's first eight regenerations. They might look superficially male to human eyes, but a closer look would show they were actually sexless, and none of them would be able to grow beards.

But I don't WANT my Doctor to be neuter!

Mind you, I don't want him to be male either.

And despite all my protestations, I'm not 100% sure I want him to be female either...

After all, Pertwee made a pretty convincing woman when he dressed up - not especially attractive, perhaps, but no worse looking than my aunts.

Let's keep our fingers crossed your aunts don't read Nitcentral, or that's a LOT of wills you'll be written out of.

But yes, he made a MOST convincing woman, as I'm sure did Troughton, IF ONLY THEY HADN'T DESTROYED THE HIGHLANDERS...

But you'd know about the history of regenerative accidents, some of them suspiciously convenient. Considering the tangled schemes ambitious Time Lords engage in, it would not be remotely surprising if the third deputy secretary for cultural affairs slipped his boss a drug guaranteed to make him regenerate into a woman, just to get a promotion to second deputy secretary.

Sacking someone for regenerating into a woman would be too blatantly sexist even for Gallifrey.

And drugs - give or take the Sisterhood's Elixir - don't seem to be used in the regenerative process at all.

The Unbound audio Exile, incidentally, claims that Time Lords only change sex if the regeneration is caused by a suicide. Of course, the rest of the audio is EVEN LESS CONVINCING so I feel unable to believe a word of it.

But I don't WANT my Doctor to be neuter!

Mind you, I don't want him to be male either.

And despite all my protestations, I'm not 100% sure I want him to be female either...

Well, that sorta limits the possibilities now, don't it?

Well, I haven't seen 'em do anything worse than comment that that Chinese Captain of the Master's was 'quite a dolly'.

Because the BBC had standards. The way the boys talked about Jo in the barracks would not have been suitable for family viewing.

Jo, on the other hand...mind you, he never takes the blindest bit of notice when she's blathering on about Atlantis or the Age of Aquarius or the latest nonsense-she-got-from-a-magazine

He doesn't appear to, but we've seen Eleven replaying his memories in photographic detail, and Two using them to show his companion a repeat. Clearly, Three would also remember every single word spoken in his presence.

Would they be...backing slowly away at the time, perchance?

Quite often. I can only presume they're torn between rushing to tell others about my fascinating insights and staying to hear more - but no doubt you have the same experience when telling people about your cats.

Let's keep our fingers crossed your aunts don't read Nitcentral, or that's a LOT of wills you'll be written out of.

Why? What greater compliment could there be than looking like the Doctor? Just think how pleased if someone said you were the spitting image of Four, apart from the extra curves.

Sacking someone for regenerating into a woman would be too blatantly sexist even for Gallifrey.

Which means it's got no laws forbidding women from holding power, making it more socially advanced than much of human history.

And drugs - give or take the Sisterhood's Elixir - don't seem to be used in the regenerative process at all.

Not normally, but we did see River use a poison on Eleven that interfered with normal regeneration. That's precedent enough for exotic poisons which interfere with the regeneration process in interesting ways.

Well, that sorta limits the possibilities now, don't it?

The main option left is hermaphrodite, which I can't see being any more popular.

Well, that sorta limits the possibilities now, don't it?

I knoooooooow!

Well, I haven't seen 'em do anything worse than comment that that Chinese Captain of the Master's was 'quite a dolly'.

Because the BBC had standards. The way the boys talked about Jo in the barracks would not have been suitable for family viewing.

The BBC managed to convey a HELL of a lot of sexism over the years, apparently all in the name of Family Viewing...

we've seen Eleven replaying his memories in photographic detail, and Two using them to show his companion a repeat. Clearly, Three would also remember every single word spoken in his presence.

God, I'm no better than the villains. I'd totally forgotten about those. The Doctor fools me with his absent-minded act EVERY TIME.

What greater compliment could there be than looking like the Doctor? Just think how pleased if someone said you were the spitting image of Four, apart from the extra curves.

Thrilled to bits, but SOME women are funny about that sort of thing.

it's got no laws forbidding women from holding power, making it more socially advanced than much of human history.

Not...necessarily. If you've got customs so cast-iron that no one even NOTICES how misogynistic they are, you don't NEED laws too.

we did see River use a poison on Eleven that interfered with normal regeneration. That's precedent enough for exotic poisons which interfere with the regeneration process in interesting ways.

Ooh! Yes, that's true...

The main option left is hermaphrodite, which I can't see being any more popular.

You're •••• right THERE. After Alpha Centuri...NO THANKS.

Moderator's Note: Moved from New Series: Season Six: The Doctor's Wife:

Over the centuries, House has killed hundreds of Timelords. I find it hard to believe that nobody on Gallifrey noticed so many Timelords going missing, along with hundreds of TARDISes. These are people who commit genocides to preserve themselves. They should have investigated, discovered House and ruthlessly made him regret the day he was born. House may have been able to handle Timelords a few at a time, but not the full might of Gallifrey.

Over the centuries, House has killed hundreds of Timelords. I find it hard to believe that nobody on Gallifrey noticed so many Timelords going missing, along with hundreds of TARDISes.

We have to assume they were all renegades, therefore the Time Lords just wrote 'em off. The Doctor and the War Chief seem to be the only people they bothered pursuing for interference/TARDIS theft/being really evil - even THE DALEKS were more interested in putting the Master on trial than the Gallifreyans were, and of course by the Rani's time they seemed to be GIVING 'em TARDISes and waving 'em on their merry way.

Alright, I find it hard to believe there are thousands of renegades but then my brain's still stuck on the Infinity Doctors concept of there only being a thousand Time Lords. OF COURSE if there are millions of Time Lords who live for thousands of years in some stultifying, chauvinist, dictatorial society, at least 1% are gonna scarper. And, let's face it, the Doc has bumped into an AWFUL LOT of renegades on his travels.

On the other hand, the Second Doctor's 'help!' box penetrated the Transduction Barriers, presumably all the others can too, and it would make more sense for them to be programmed to home in on Gallifrey (when it still existed) rather than to locate a TARDIS...and at least one of them specifically MENTIONED informing Gallifrey's High Council...

Yeah, Time Lords are INCREDIBLY thick, aren't they.

House may have been able to handle Timelords a few at a time, but not the full might of Gallifrey.

The 'full might of Gallifrey' fell before three pieces of tinfoil. Still, if they'd noticed they could have done the sensible thing and PHONED THE DOCTOR.

We have to assume they were all renegades, therefore the Time Lords just wrote 'em off.

That's possible, although I feel they should at least have worried about the existence of something capable of dispatching so many of them.

Yeah, Time Lords are INCREDIBLY thick, aren't they.

I see them more as pathologically arrogant about their own superiority.

The 'full might of Gallifrey' fell before three pieces of tinfoil.

It stood before the Dalek empire during the Time War, and the Racnoss, and the Vampires, and many others. On the other hand, the Doctor managed to destroy it single handedly, so yes, I suppose the sensible thing WOULD have been to stand back and let the Doctor investigate.

The 'full might of Gallifrey' fell before three pieces of tinfoil.

Three pieces of tinfoil helped by the Doctor, who is worth more than a dozen galaxy-conquering battle fleets.

We have to assume they were all renegades, therefore the Time Lords just wrote 'em off.

That's possible, although I feel they should at least have worried about the existence of something capable of dispatching so many of them.

Yeah, but I meant wrote them off as soon as they LEFT Gallifrey - totally failed to care about what happened to them, what planets they were destroying or how many hundreds of them mysteriously disappeared...In fact, if the renegades had thought to nick their biodata extracts like the Master did, the Time Lords would have promptly forgotten their very EXISTENCE.

Yeah, Time Lords are INCREDIBLY thick, aren't they.

I see them more as pathologically arrogant about their own superiority.

The arrogant superiority only ever comes across for me in End of Time. THAT was the way the Time Lords SHOULD have been all along...

It stood before the Dalek empire during the Time War

Not for long it didn't. (Well, OK, it probably WAS a long time. But only because they messed up time for the entire universe, no doubt by repeatedly rewriting their own hideous mistakes or something.)

and the Racnoss, and the Vampires, and many others

AT THE DAWN OF TIME. When they had Rassilon and Omega and invented time travel and were GENUINELY IMPRESSIVE for the only time in their history. And even THEN they needed the Fledgling Empires for assistance. And the Eternals had to deal with the Carrionites...

The 'full might of Gallifrey' fell before three pieces of tinfoil.

Three pieces of tinfoil helped by the Doctor, who is worth more than a dozen galaxy-conquering battle fleets.

He is *rapturous sigh*, but honestly, couldn't they have made a BIT more of an EFFORT? That cretinous wimp Andred was the only one who lifted a finger to stop the invasion, and HIS bright idea was to MURDER OUR BELOVED DOCTOR. In his own TARDIS. Has he never heard of Temporal Grace...?

Hand of Fear:

So when, exactly, did the Time Lords en masse pledge themselves to repel alien aggression if an indigenous species was threatened? Some time after Troughton's trial, one assumes. And it must have been repealed some time before Colin's trial. And whose bright idea WAS it? Not the Doctor's, since he didn't go near Gallifrey between War Games and Deadly Assassin...oh. Another piece of evidence in favour of Season 6B?

And what did they DO by way of arming themselves and setting off into the universe to smite evil, anyway?

And shouldn't the numerous 'Great and Bountiful' (yeah, right) human empires have been one of their first targets?

Well, they'd've lasted longer against humanity than against their first Dalek.

Honestly, it's a wonder the Time Lords SURVIVED till the Time War.

So when, exactly, did the Time Lords en masse pledge themselves to repel alien aggression if an indigenous species was threatened?

Perhaps the other Time Lords interpreted those terms rather more narrowly than the Doctor. They may have decided alien meant 'alien to the universe', so they were pledged to defend against invasions from outside time, or from alternate universes.

With that interpretation, they wouldn't need to do a lot, and it's not as if they'd have much choice about fighting if something really did invade from elsewhere, wrecking the web of time.

Well, the only times I can think of off-hand where beings from another universe started messing with ours (ignoring all the novels' claims about the origins of Nestenes, the Great Intelligence etc) are Omega in Three Docs, Omega in Arc, Anti-Matter in Planet of Evil and the Beast in Impossible Planet. In NONE of which cases did the Time Lords actually FIGHT, the miserable wimps.

Impossible Planet was after the Time Lords had been destroyed,and Planet of Evil wasn't technically another universe, just a strange part of this one, nor was it trying to invade.

Omega wasn't from another universe, but the Time Lords did take action against him in Three Doctors despite that. Getting the Doctor to fight for them might seem a little cowardly, but it was undoubtedly the sensible thing to do.

Impossible Planet was after the Time Lords had been destroyed

Ah, but Satan had been hanging around orbiting a black hole since (before?) this universe began. The Time Lords had PLENTY of time to notice him before the Doctor blew 'em up. Hell, even TORCHWOOD (not generally noted for their brains) spotted that SOMETHING was going on there...

and Planet of Evil wasn't technically another universe, just a strange part of this one, nor was it trying to invade.

It doesn't matter whether it was TRYING to invade - its very alienness could have destroyed us all unintentionally. And yeah, I know (um, well, have a vague idea anyway - past time I rewatched) that another universe wasn't mentioned, but the story simply doesn't make sense if it's just about the edges of some galaxy (ours, I think?).

Omega wasn't from another universe

Not originally, but by Three Docs he was a pure anti-matter other-universal monster.

Getting the Doctor to fight for them might seem a little cowardly, but it was undoubtedly the sensible thing to do.

SENSIBLE, yes. But hardly indicative of the rousing 'We're here to save the universe!' attitude implied by the Doctor's bizarre claims in Hand of Fear.

But hardly indicative of the rousing 'We're here to save the universe!' attitude implied by the Doctor's bizarre claims in Hand of Fear.

Of course. As I see it, that's a relic of Gallifrey's youth, which only the Doctor takes seriously these days. Most Time Lords will pay lip service to the ancient oaths, simply because they're ancient, but they'll use legal-style technicalities to get out of actually doing anything.

Or maybe the Doctor is... "exagerrating" what the Time Lords will do so Eldrad will stop trying to conquer his favorite planet?

Of course. As I see it, that's a relic of Gallifrey's youth, which only the Doctor takes seriously these days. Most Time Lords will pay lip service to the ancient oaths, simply because they're ancient, but they'll use legal-style technicalities to get out of actually doing anything.

But if that was the case, SURELY Troughton would have thrown said oaths in their faces at his trial? Pointed out that THEY were the ones breaking the law, not him?

Or maybe the Doctor is... "exagerrating" what the Time Lords will do so Eldrad will stop trying to conquer his favorite planet?

Actually I THINK Eldrad picked up that stuff from the Doctor's brain when she ruthlessly and successfully scanned it. So either it's the truth or the Doctor's seriously deluded.

MODERATOR'S NOTE: moved from Novels: New Adventures: The Highest Science:

ME: If I'd been elected in the happy expectation I'd spend a couple of hundred years gently snoozing in a high collar...

ROBERT: But I doubt that's all the High Council expected out of life. Just consider how many of them turned out to be power-mad traitors.

ME: Though even THEY might have thought Rassilon-in-charge would have helped them CONTINUE being power-mad traitors for a bit longer.

ROBERT: It all depends on exactly what Rassilon's reputation was, and how good the High Council was at deluding themselves things would work their way.

Rassilon's reputation was mixed: on the one hand, a Time Lord couldn't MOVE without tripping over a something-or-other of Rassilon. Even if they DID manage to forget that he was responsible for the black hole under the floorboards that powered their entire civilisation.* I can't think of any single figure that permeates Western civilisation in this way, but I imagine it must be a bit like being a Muslim, prostrating yourself five times a day and mentioning Mohammed - 'Peace Be Upon Him' - several times a day too.

So if and when one single Time Lord said 'Hey, let's wake up old Rassy' there is simply NO WAY that ANYONE would have the guts to BLASPHEMOUSLY state 'Nah, leave the crazy dictator to snooze on'.

Presumably they also gave serious consideration to handing absolute power over to a DIFFERENT crazy ex-President who could also offer out-of-the-box thinking instead of SQUANDERING him on the front lines, but someone must have argued that the Doctor was just too ready to toe the human-and-even-Dalek-rights-respecting line to make the REALLY genocidal decisions. (He chickened out in Genesis, after all.) Which is ironic, given how he ultimately 'Seized the Moment'...

We have no way of knowing how true OR widespread the rumours that 'His fellow Time Lords rebelled against his cruelty and imprisoned him' are. Just because THE DOCTOR had heard about 'em - and was happy to share 'em with the Brigadier - doesn't mean that most other Time Lords a) had heard them, b) believed them, or c) thought insanity and cruelty would necessarily be a drawback at this time of dire emergency.

*Alright, so WE know he TOTALLY wasn't responsible, but he had a VERY SUCCESSFUL propaganda campaign to nick all the credit from poor old Omega.

So if and when one single Time Lord said 'Hey, let's wake up old Rassy' ...

Half Gallifrey would demand they be executed for blasphemy. Rassilon the Great doesn't help from anyone to do anything, including waking up. He will awaken when he wants to, not a second earlier, and when he does, it will turn out to be at the perfect moment.

That, at least, is the religious mindset. The nearest human equivalent is the second coming of Jesus, expected by both Christians and Muslims.

Just imagine walking into any church or mosque, and telling the priest in charge they ought to bring Jesus back, for his second appearance. You might simply receive a lecture on your hubris, if you were lucky, or you might not leave the building alive.

So if and when one single Time Lord said 'Hey, let's wake up old Rassy' ...

Half Gallifrey would demand they be executed for blasphemy. Rassilon the Great doesn't help from anyone to do anything, including waking up. He will awaken when he wants to, not a second earlier, and when he does, it will turn out to be at the perfect moment.

No one tried to execute the Doctor when he woke up Rassilon. And providing it was phrased right - 'Perchance we should petition the Great Rassilon to hear our humble plea to lead his grovelling subjects in this, our time of strife' or something - I don't see how anyone could object.

That, at least, is the religious mindset. The nearest human equivalent is the second coming of Jesus, expected by both Christians and Muslims.

Just imagine walking into any church or mosque, and telling the priest in charge they ought to bring Jesus back, for his second appearance. You might simply receive a lecture on your hubris, if you were lucky, or you might not leave the building alive.

Ah, but that's because they obviously don't REALLY believe in a Second Coming Of Jesus. I mean, he promised to return within the lifetime of some of the people listening to him at the time! He's TWO THOUSAND YEARS overdue! I wouldn't be entirely surprising if the godbotherers roasted you alive rather than face this unfortunate fact. However, post-Five Doctors all the Time Lords should have a fair idea that Rassilon IS genuinely asleep in that Tomb of his so shouldn't overreact.

No one tried to execute the Doctor when he woke up Rassilon.

How many Time Lords knew about that though? Borusa, obviously, whose idea it was, and maybe some of the other High Councillors, but not the general public.

And providing it was phrased right - 'Perchance we should petition the Great Rassilon ...

That would keep the Gallifreyan mob happy, but I can't see any of the High Councillors grovelling like that until the Daleks were at their door. Until then, they'd be too arrogant to take the threat seriously.

Ah, but that's because they obviously don't REALLY believe in a Second Coming Of Jesus.

The sensible ones don't believe; the zealots do. They gloat about how, come the day, they will be lifted bodily to heaven, from where they can the rest of us suffering the wrath of god, old-testament style. You can tell they believe, because they spend time and money preparing for that day.

No one tried to execute the Doctor when he woke up Rassilon.

How many Time Lords knew about that though? Borusa, obviously, whose idea it was, and maybe some of the other High Councillors, but not the general public.

Word would have spread. Five as good as TOLD Thalia (or was it Flavia - always getting those two muddled up) in the presence of a couple of guards that Rassilon was alive and kicking. There's no way the three of 'em would have kept it to themselves, especially with the mysterious disappearance of a long-standing president making it impossible to do one of those typical Time Lord cover-ups. The ripples would have spread faster than the events of Trial of a Time Lord which sparked a successful Gallifreyan revolution in five minutes flat. Hell, they'd've spread even faster than 'Don't you think she looks tired'.

like that until the Daleks were at their door. Until then, they'd be too arrogant to take the threat seriously.

True, but I strongly suspect that the first the Time Lords knew of the Time War was when the Daleks WERE at their door.

You can tell they believe, because they spend time and money preparing for that day.

Oh, yeah, there IS that.

Word would have spread. Five as good as TOLD Thalia in the presence of a couple of guards that Rassilon was alive and kicking.

'As good as' only works if the guards are smart enough to understand things that aren't explicitly spelt out for them, in words of one syllable - and the Gallifreyan guards never struck me as being chosen for their smarts.

the mysterious disappearance of a long-standing president making it impossible to do one of those typical Time Lord cover-ups.

Flavia can just say, completely truthfully, that "Borusa took on the Doctor, and lost. We do not expect to see him again."

True, but I strongly suspect that the first the Time Lords knew of the Time War was when the Daleks WERE at their door.

Which would mean they'd be feeling pretty desperate when they woke Rassilon up, as I originally said.

Flavia can just say, completely truthfully, that "Borusa took on the Doctor, and lost. We do not expect to see him again."

Actually, Borusa took on FOUR versions of the Doctor at once, would have added a fifth one to the mix if his time scoop thing had not malfunctionned, PLUS the Master, PLUS Rassilon himself. I mean, how overconfident can a Time Lord get?

Word would have spread. Five as good as TOLD Thalia in the presence of a couple of guards that Rassilon was alive and kicking.

'As good as' only works if the guards are smart enough to understand things that aren't explicitly spelt out for them, in words of one syllable - and the Gallifreyan guards never struck me as being chosen for their smarts.

Hmm, that's true. Still, Flavia will have had to make SOME sort of public statement, if only to break the news of their exciting new absent President, and to soothe any suspicions about why SHE'S the last High Councillor standing. Even if she somehow avoids the 'R' word, everyone will know the events took place in the Death Zone, ergo, everyone will soon THINK they know that rumours of Rassilon's death were greatly exaggerated. (AND, going by Taking of Planet 5's 'Doctor ? in an Exciting Adventure with the Enemy', they'll soon have a Target-style novelisation to back up their suspicions...)

True, but I strongly suspect that the first the Time Lords knew of the Time War was when the Daleks WERE at their door.

Which would mean they'd be feeling pretty desperate when they woke Rassilon up, as I originally said.

Yes, they'd be terrified of dying (something Rassilon throwing vaporisation bolts around the place would NOT help with) but their society wouldn't have had TIME to move from 'slow smug boring superior' mode to 'ruthless humans-rights-trampling dictatorial' war-mode.

(Though of course, morality and democracy were only ever skin-deep on Gallifrey - they were quick enough to whip out the torture-devices and the vaporisation chamber whenever the poor old Doctor came calling. Conversely, they DID hold democratic votes on important issues (like whether or not to destroy the universe) right to the bitter end. Confusing.)

Actually, Borusa took on FOUR versions of the Doctor at once, would have added a fifth one to the mix if his time scoop thing had not malfunctionned, PLUS the Master, PLUS Rassilon himself. I mean, how overconfident can a Time Lord get?

To be fair, Borusa DID get what he wanted...kind of...

everyone will know the events took place in the Death Zone, ergo, everyone will soon THINK they know that rumours of Rassilon's death were greatly exaggerated.

Only the ones who already thought Rassilon was just sleeping. Most of the rest will assume the Doctor did it, while a lunatic fringe will blame Omega.

their society wouldn't have had TIME ...

Hmm. Was the Master called up before or after Rassilon?

I can't really see Rassilon having much use for the Master during the Time War. He's good at killing, true, but he's also good at backstabbing his allies.

If, on the other hand, the Time Lords called up the renegades before they woke Rassilon, that would give them time to adapt. After a couple of years with the Master loose on Gallifrey, spending as much time trying to kill his way to supreme power as he was fighting the Daleks, the sight of Rassilon throwing lightning bolts would be pretty much business as usual.

(Though of course, morality and democracy were only ever skin-deep on Gallifrey

True. They respect them in principle, but have trouble with the practice, much like we humans.

everyone will know the events took place in the Death Zone, ergo, everyone will soon THINK they know that rumours of Rassilon's death were greatly exaggerated.

Only the ones who already thought Rassilon was just sleeping.

But I'd guess the 'Just sleeping' people greatly outnumbered the 'He's not just pining for the fjords, he's an ex-President, he has ceased to be, he's expired and gone to meet his Maker, he's joined the choir invisible' people. Time Lords have an ambiguous relationship with death at the best of times, it would be even more unlikely to be 'the final end' for their founder and virtual-god.

Most of the rest will assume the Doctor did it, while a lunatic fringe will blame Omega.

Hey! There's nothing wrong with suspecting that Omega is to blame for ANYTHING that goes wrong.

If, on the other hand, the Time Lords called up the renegades before they woke Rassilon, that would give them time to adapt. After a couple of years with the Master loose on Gallifrey, spending as much time trying to kill his way to supreme power as he was fighting the Daleks, the sight of Rassilon throwing lightning bolts would be pretty much business as usual.

That's very true.

I can't IMAGINE that even the Time Lords - for whose intelligence I have the kind of respect usually reserved for particularly dim Ogrons - would be stupid enough to think 'Ooh, the Master!' before they thought 'Ooh, Rassilon!' (Say what you like about Rassy, at least a) he came up with a perfectly workable plan to preserve his species, b) he never tried to destroy Gallifrey several times for personal gain, and c) he wasn't DEAD.)

On the other hand, I can't imagine how the Time Lords would be stupid enough to resurrect the Master AFTER Rassilon either, in fact in ANY CIRCUMSTANCES WHATSOEVER. So what do I know.

(On the other hand, Gallifrey's War King during the Faction Paradox Time War does seem to be the Master, and he didn't do a bad job of it, in the circumstances. Of course, in the Faction universe the Doctor got himself killed in the very first battle of the War so the Time Lords suddenly had fewer options. Though to their credit, they did get rather obsessive about obtaining his CORPSE...)

Hey! There's nothing wrong with suspecting that Omega is to blame for ANYTHING that goes wrong.

True, which gives Flavia another convenient scapegoat. If she claims Omega struck down Borusa to prevent him desecrating Rassilon's tower how many Time Lords would believe her?

I can't IMAGINE that even the Time Lords - for whose intelligence I have the kind of respect usually reserved for particularly dim Ogrons - would be stupid enough to think 'Ooh, the Master!'

Are we absolutely sure the Time Lords brought the Master back deliberately? Suppose some damage from the Time War made the Eye of Harmony spit out the Master. The Time Lords would be too frightened of him to tell him the truth, that his return was a freak accident. Instead, they'd flatter him with lies about how much they needed his expertise, and hope his pride would lead him to the battlefield, where he'd be the Daleks' problem.

Of course, this only works if he came back before Rassilon, since Rassilon wouldn't be frightened of the Master. He'd just chain him up in some dungeon, and order him to invent new weapons, or be vaporised.

If she claims Omega struck down Borusa to prevent him desecrating Rassilon's tower how many Time Lords would believe her?

Not many I suspect, since Omega is supposed to be DEAD.

Oh, and considering how Rassilon stole Omega's life work and the glory that came with it, he'd be more likely to HELP Borusa than to thwart him.

Not many I suspect, since Omega is supposed to be DEAD.

Officially, but many Time Lords may think that, like Rassilon, Omega is too powerful to die. Besides, he was seen running round Amsterdam not long before the Five Doctors. While the average Time Lord may not have known about that, the important ones may have, since the High Council would have needed to explain the drama.

Also, would the Time Lords have tried to bring Omega back for the Time War too? He'd be at least as useful as Rassilon.

which gives Flavia another convenient scapegoat. If she claims Omega struck down Borusa to prevent him desecrating Rassilon's tower how many Time Lords would believe her?

I honestly don't think Flavia's a megalomaniac lying genocidal git.* Admittedly this would make her the ONLY High Councillor ever to be in this happy position (except for her alter-ego Thalia and that woman Rassilon vaporised...am I being sexist or is there a PATTERN emerging here?) but she really wouldn't have any NEED to make up some nonsense about Omega when she already had Rassilon, the Doctor, the Daleks, the Cybermen, the Master, the Raston Warrior Robots, the Yeti, etc etc if she felt like blaming anyone for the unfortunate...disappearance...of the Lord President.

Are we absolutely sure the Time Lords brought the Master back deliberately? Suppose some damage from the Time War made the Eye of Harmony spit out the Master. The Time Lords would be too frightened of him to tell him the truth, that his return was a freak accident. Instead, they'd flatter him with lies about how much they needed his expertise, and hope his pride would lead him to the battlefield, where he'd be the Daleks' problem.

THAT would explain SO MUCH.

Though if the Master's HALF as bright as you're claiming he is over in the 'Master' section, he'd've balked at this 'we resurrected you to be the Perfect Warrior' rubbish as much as I did.

Of course, this only works if he came back before Rassilon, since Rassilon wouldn't be frightened of the Master. He'd just chain him up in some dungeon, and order him to invent new weapons, or be vaporised.

Rassilon certainly wouldn't have been frightened of the Master, but he may well not have had the SENSE to chain him up or anything. In End of Time he was way more interested in seeing what the Master n'Doctor would DO than in saving his own species. (And who can blame him...)

Oh, and considering how Rassilon stole Omega's life work and the glory that came with it, he'd be more likely to HELP Borusa than to thwart him.

THAT'S true - IF Omega was even aware of it. The Doctor, after all, TOLD Omega that he was revered as a hero, without mentioning 'But not much of one cos Rassilon nicked your black hole and everything.' And if Omega spotted what the HELL had been going on during his sojourn in the Matrix, he certainly didn't seem remotely upset by it.

Besides, he was seen running round Amsterdam not long before the Five Doctors.

Yeah - even the Time Lords aren't thick enough to swallow that 'Omega is dead!' stuff after Three Doctors AND Arc of Infinity. And what does 'dead' mean ANYWAY to a Time Lord, when you could bring back the dead through sacrificing regenerations (Let's Kill Hitler) or after burning alive/getting exterminated by Daleks/falling into the Eye of Harmony etc (Planet of Fire/Telemovie).

*Though she must have had a TOUCH of megalomania. Who the hell did she think she WAS, telling THE DOCTOR what to do? Not to mention she was on dubious constitutional grounds, just proclaiming the new President when the old one was neither dead nor resigned.

Though if the Master's HALF as bright as you're claiming he is over in the 'Master' section, he'd've balked at this 'we resurrected you to be the Perfect Warrior' rubbish as much as I did.

Bright, but blinded by his own ego.

Rassilon certainly wouldn't have been frightened of the Master, but he may well not have had the SENSE to chain him up or anything.

True, but would even the Master be deluded enough to think the Time Lords would deliberately bring him back when they already had Rassilon?

They were deluded enough to squander the Doctor on the front line. They were also deluded enough to offer the Master an entire new regeneration cycle to go to the Death Zone. You don't have to be the Master to think the Time Lords score pretty high on the 'TOTALLY ******* DELUDED' scale.

Even BEFORE they decide that destroying the universe is a REALLY GOOD IDEA.

If Timelords can switch gender when they regenerate, it seems strange that

a) there are so few women in positions of power and

b) their society would be so obviously male chauvinistic.

Complex political games, conspiracies and the pursuit of power for power's sake appear to be favorite pastimes of theirs, so I'm sure they would not let a mere gender switch rob them of their hard earned political status and their power bases.

Ah, but if the ENTIRE UNIVERSE was rewritten in Rassilon's image, doesn't it make sense that the Time Lords were too, to an even greater extent? Just as the Doctor's default body is white adult humanoid male, the vast majority of Time Lord bodies are almost certainly likewise. In which case, sexism wouldn't really enter into it, any more than racism would. There are so few women in positions of power because there are so few women. If anything, they're OVER-represented on the High Council/judiciary/presidency.

Of course, this doesn't explain why Docs One and Two have moments of sheer unadulterated sexism towards their female Companions.

this doesn't explain why Docs One and Two have moments of sheer unadulterated sexism towards their female Companions.

Clearly, in his youthful naivety, he assumed that human males knew what they were talking about when they claimed females were a bunch of feeble idiots, and that Barbara was a one in a million exception.

After a few dozen decades, and scores of encounters with formidably competent human females, the penny dropped, and he realised human women were on average just as capable as men. It would have been sooner, but he refused to believe his favourite species could be so full of irrational prejudice.

I'm a really bad person, Emily. When Bernard Horsfall (Gulliver/Goth/Taron/Goth) died last year and I heard that the Gallifrey One convention was due to have him as a guest, I figured they could always do a Doctor Who convention version of the 1980s comedy "Weekend at Bernies".

What the hell is Weekend at Bernies??

A bad comedy. Basically, two morons use the corpse of their dead host as a puppet so they can keep enjoying the pleasures of his tropical island mansion.

For more details, here is a link.

There's also a sequel, if you can believe it.

There's something I've been wondering about, concerning the process of regeneration. Are a Timelord's successive physical appearances preset, or does the result of a regeneration depends on the circumstances of where, when and why a Timelord regenerates?

Oh, I think circumstances are very important. Tennant was a cockney cos Eccy regenerated so physically and emotionally close to Rose Tyler. Capaldi is an old man because Matt spent a thousand years geting really really old on Trenzalore. Simm was a young strong handsome Master because Jacobi willed himself to be Tennant's counterpart. Romana could pick and choose her bodies like there's no tomorrow. McGann chose to be a warrior (albeit cheating slightly with elixir help). Troughton got offered a variety of bodies (albeit weirdly pre-set ones). Eccy probably got THOSE ears cos Hurt regenerated thinking of ears...

As I get very bored at work, a rather random question has sprung up in my mind about the regenerations of Time Lords. If a Time Lord gets married, divorced and then regenerates, do they have to pay alimony? What if a previous regeneration pops up? Do they have to pay as they're essentially the same person?

I'm not sure that Time Lords have a concept of alimony. In fact, I'm not sure they have a concept of MONEY. (I was also pretty surprised to find they have a concept of MARRIAGE. Maybe the Doc was just fooling River with a made-up ceremony...)

Didn't Invasion of Time, or maybe Arc of Infinity, establish that Time Lords had weddings?

Actually, I guess Leela could have persuaded Andred to commit to a Sevateem tradition, though I'm not convinced following such a tradition would be that important to her.

Leela could have persuaded Andred to commit to a Sevateem tradition

Andred: I'm not going to commit to any, primitive...

Leela begins sharpening her knife.

Andred: *Gulp!* On the other hand, why not go a little primitive for this one.


Later, after the marriage..


Maxil: So, Andred, where's the little woman tonight?

Andred: She disembowelled the last bloke who called her that.

Maxil: So noted.

Andred: Anyway, she's out with her Shobagen friends tonight. She said something about killing and skinning an animal for a birthday celebration.

Now that we know Gallifrayans are not born Time Lords, this may explain two long standing problems. The first is the apparent lack of a second heart in the Hartnell Doctor. Gallifreyans could be single hearted beings who only develop the second heart (and possibly other Time Lord biological features) after one or two regenerations. I do believe this has been suggested in the past, and we now have reasonably solid evidence to rest this on. The second is the apparent lack of women among the Time Lord ranks. It may simply be that Gallifrey's culture is still far from being gender egalitarian, and women are either discouraged, or outright prevented from attending the Academy, except under rather exceptional circumstances.

It may simply be that Gallifrey's culture is still far from being gender egalitarian, and women are either discouraged, or outright prevented from attending the Academy

Yeah, The Infinity Doctors openly claimed as much (something along the lines of 'Of course women are equal, that goes without saying, and no one ever questioned why they only made up 10% of Time Lords').

Of course, it doesn't explain WHY, with several thousand years in which to kick their heels, no female, or indeed male, Gallifreyans DID question this peculiar situation. It's not as if they had wars (where male physical strength would be important) OR gods* (to indoctrinate them with ludicrous notions about the horrors of allowing females/homosexuals/shell-fish/garments made of more than one thread to run amok).

It also doesn't explain why Gallifrey managed ten million (Trial)/one billion (End of Time) years of grotesque sexual inequality, only to rapidly catch up with this 'Women's Lib' thing in its last couple of centuries. (War Games and Three Doctors and Deadly Assassin: no Time Ladies. Invasion of Time: one glorified traffic controller. Arc of Infinity and Five Doctors: one female High Councillor. Five Doctors, Trial: female presidents (acting or implied-future). Virgin and BBC novels, Big Finish audios: female presidents - well, Romana anyway. (Of course, she DID get Gallifrey blown sky-high in ALL of these (otherwise grossly conflicting) futures.) New Who: probable sexual equality, it's a bit difficult to say with that male nutter Rassilon stomping all over the place.)

*OK, Gallifrey DID worship three Eternals according to the NAs - Time, Death and Pain - but they were all female. And pretty unconvincing.

But if Time Lords can change their sex and colour across regenerations then that means most of them are choosing to be male. Which brings the question of why so many of them - including the Doctor - have chosen to do so.

Yeah, now that it turns out that Time Lords actually HAVE SEX, the gender imbalance is even more inexplicable.

Still, let's not accuse the Doctor of sexism. HIS regenerations are the emergency no-control type.

Well, aside from his absolutely perfect control in managing to turn from David Tennant into David Tennant...

They won't bring the Monk back. The trouble with the Monk is that essentially, he's the same character as the Doctor: A wandering trickster.

That sort of worked with Hartnell, because Hartnell could play a straight man - a stiff and stuffy fuddy dud, an avatar of the forces of law, order and normality - the elder of a family unit. The Monk could then be the subverter, the anarchist, the force of trickery and chaos, the wild card.

When the Doctor became more of an anarchic force himself - more clearly a self directed renegade and game changer - as with the Troughton, Pertwee and Baker Doctors... the Monk really had no role, no territory left to himself. He wasn't an adequate reflection of the Doctor, any of the Doctors.

In contrast, the Master was a much more effective opposite number to the Doctor, which is why he was more successful.

The Rani as well, failed to establish her niche. The War Chief was never more than a supporting villain. And the rest of the renegades, from Drax to Chronotis on never really struck much of a vibe.

Romana II established her niche - as Best Old Who Companion Ever - and Rassilon has TOTALLY made the part of Spittle-Ridden Insane War-President Of Gallifrey his own.

And I think the Monk MIGHT work opposite Capaldi, a Doctor who's old and scary and has attack-eyebrows and TOTALLY wouldn't put up with any meddling in the Web of Time (unless he was doing it himself).

Remember that House has probably disposed of all those renegade Time Lords. The Doctor is the last one left.

My opinion has been for some time that Rassilon was freed after the Master fled, as another monster, and instead of fleeing or meekly serving them, took back power in a rather bloody coup d'etat, not all that long before the final day.
Heck given the way Omega was 'destroyed' I wouldn't be surprised if Rassilon was one of the greatest monsters of Gallifrey

But the Gallifreyans are totally used to rewriting their own history, and MOST of 'em would have swallowed that Greatest Ruler Ever, Got Us That Nice Black Hole stuff (rather than the alternative 'imprisoned for his great cruelty' version favoured by the Doctor BEFORE he met Rassy). It's more likely that they BEGGED him to lead them.

From Emily, in then Novels: New Adventures: Head Games board.

'The number of regenerations a Time Lord can have is limited because of the inability of the Gallifreyan mind to deal with carrying any more psyches' - DWM Head Games article.

Time Lords are not russian dolls, with all their previous selves preserved and neatly nested inside each other. Each new incarnation is a rebirth, with body and mind transformed into a new individual who shares the memories of the previous ones.

Agreed, but the novels didn't quite see it that way. Those writers had FAR too much time on their hands, and decided that the Doctor's previous psyches were in there somewhere - a furious Sixth Doctor inside Seven in Love and War; all of 'em wandering around inside dreams (or something) in Timewrym: Revelation (I seem to remember Five being crucified for his other selves' sins, which cheered me up no end); all the previous Doctors' severed heads on sticks chatting away (Scarlet Empress); an ability to slip back into previous selves' psyches (State of Change, I think).

And it has to be admitted, Davison's performance in Castrovalva gave some credence to this idea.

DWM Terror of the Autons Archive: 'Time Lord actor David Garth changed his line about the length of his journey from the "2,900 light years" scripted to "29,000 light years"' - but we've been RELYING on that line to tell us where Gallifrey is! And NOW we find it's some ad-lib?!

An evil Time Lord? Now that's scarier than a bajillion Weeping Angels!

Well, it WOULD be if there weren't QUITE so many evil Time Lords. All of whom are incredibly incompetent.

the Second Doctor did say, way back, that Time Lords could live forever, barring accidents (much as he said of Ashildr in GWD) so Romana and many other Time Lords are, if they’re careful, probably basically functionally immortal.

Interesting and detailed fan interpretation of Timelord biology
Certain pieces of speculation are a bit of astretch but for the most part is decent.

I HATE the idea of regeneration involving microscopic robots.

I HATE the idea of regeneration involving microscopic robots
It isd written from the point of view of a late 90's/early 00's american, nanotech was a big deal back then, (especially in regards to surgery) and in science fiction, (eg: Trek's Borg nanoprobes). I don't agree with it either but it makes sense for Holloway to think it.

I thought you'd have the most problem with the gene based speculation of a biological link between the Time Lords and humanity. I intrepret it as a sign of long forgotten Time Lord meddling, (given they can forget about Rassilon's tech it's not much of a stretch)and rediscovering it was what first attracted the Corsair's interest.

I thought you'd have the most problem with the gene based speculation of a biological link between the Time Lords and humanity.

I blame Grace Holloway for a lot of things, but thinking there's a human/Time Lord link after the Eighth Doctor spends his entire lifespan telling her he's half-human...not so much.

Obviously it's ludicrous that she thinks THEY'RE descended from US, but then what can you expect of a heart surgeon who doesn't notice two hearts even when they're RIGHT THERE ON THE X-RAY.

I intrepret it as a sign of long forgotten Time Lord meddling, (given they can forget about Rassilon's tech it's not much of a stretch)and rediscovering it was what first attracted the Corsair's interest.

What's the Corsair got to do with it?

End of Time:

'But I've heard you talk about your people like they're wonderful.' 'That's how I choose to remember them, the Time Lords of old. But then they went to war. An endless war, and it changed them right to the core. You've seen my enemies, Wilf. The Time Lords are more dangerous than any of them.' - REALLY? Why, then, did a) you yell 'The oldest civilisation: decadent, degenerate, and rotten to the core' at them centuries before the War, b) you bring them back, and c) they prove incapable of offing said enemies?

In DWM’s The Time Lords in an interview with Stephen Thorne which included him talking about playing Omega in The Three Doctors and why he did not reprise him in Arc of Infinity where he was instead played by Ian Collier.

Thorne explained that he did not reprise Omega in Arc of Infinity because:
“Nobody asked me if I wanted to do it. Or perhaps I was doing something else and my agent just didn’t tell me.”

Well, given the whole Time Lords switching genders is a whole lot more common than previously assumed, what about Chancellor Flavia? Was she elected as a man, then turned woman?

I suppose Leela is in for a big surprise.

I don't think David would have taken it too well if Susan had regenerated into a guy.

;-)

Well, given the whole Time Lords switching genders is a whole lot more common than previously assumed

It's not remotely common. The Corsair swapped a couple of times, the Master once, the Doctor once (Woo-HOO!) and the General once. (Oh, and Drax once if you believe the audios.)

And YOU may have leapt to certain assumptions but Eldrad and I most certainly did not.

what about Chancellor Flavia? Was she elected as a man, then turned woman?

Quite possible, given how appallingly sexist Gallifreyan society is, notwithstanding Capaldi's breathtakingly hypocritical claims in World Enough and Time.

I suppose Leela is in for a big surprise.

Well, YEAH, Andred regenerated into his worst (male) enemy so he could infiltrate a conspiracy and left her to think him missing-presumed-dead for ages, after which she refused to have him back, after which he finally got himself properly killed. If you believe a word of the Gallifrey audios, obviously, which is not something I'd recommend.

I don't think David would have taken it too well if Susan had regenerated into a guy.

Pah. If he didn't want his wife to regenerate into a guy he shouldn't have been part of that ghastly rebel group who went round saying 'We need more MEN' all the time like they were DYONI.

(Not that she DID, disappointingly, but David was equally outraged that she remained youthful while he aged (yup, her appearance in Five Docs was all down to make-up, honestly), at least if you believe the Legacy of the Daleks EDA, which, again, would be a terrible idea.)

Well, given the whole Time Lords switching genders is a whole lot more common than previously assumed

Of course I forgot that two of those examples involve Time Lords who have been given new regeneration cycles. So perhaps changing gender is a side-effect of that process?

If it had been the first incarnation of the new cycle, that might have done for an explanation, but it wasn't.

It could make gender switching more likely without making it mandatory.

It's notable that the only time the Doctor waxed nostalgic for Gallifrey was when he was wracked with guilt/loneliness over being the Last of His Kind. As soon as Gallifrey returned, he remembered why he'd left in the first place.

Yeah, he even ADMITS in End of Time that he CHOOSES to remember 'em like that, presumably to increase his hideous levels of guilt...

Come to think of it, K'Anpo...Cho-Je...you know, the god-bothering Buddhist nutcase who drove our poor Pertwee to his pointless death...MUST have answered Gallifrey's call and gone off to fight in the Time War instead of lurking on Earth exchanging cotton scarfs with people - or the Doc wouldn't have been so convinced he's the only survivor - but isn't this utterly implausible? If MCGANN opted for conscientious objection, then the Abbot would TOTALLY have spent his time (war) lecturing Gallifrey on the Buddhist principles of non-violence, reincarnation and the inferiority of the female of the species whilst pointing at daisies...

Other possible explanations: they came to him and killed him; they altered the timeline so that he was never born; he committed suicide rather than fight a way.

Besides, was he really a god-botherer?

Other possible explanations: they came to him and killed him

One can but hope. Still, he has tricky mind-powers and spare future-regenerations lying around...

they altered the timeline so that he was never born

I'm thinking that Daleks and Time Lords have some way of protecting themselves against this, or the war would be very short and won by whoever thought of this first.

he committed suicide rather than fight

That suggests a level of organisation that the Time Lords just didn't have. If they didn't notice hundreds of their own people getting eaten by House they're not gonna notice one of 'em lurking around on Earth, especially as he's apparently so good at disguising himself even the Doctor didn't notice it was his dear old hermit chum.

Besides, was he really a god-botherer?

I don't know, I gather Buddhism doesn't really have gods but on the other hand it's CLEARLY a religion, ergo I define it as god-bothering.

One really has to feel sorry for Omega. All the poor guy wanted to do was come home. He didn't ask for what happened to him.

His only flaw was not realizing that it wasn't possible.

Tim - As the Doctor points out in Arc of Infinity, those billions of years alone have driven Omega insane even if he could come home.

I know.

Poor guy.

His only flaw was not realizing that it wasn't possible.

Um, no, his only flaw was deciding to DESTROY THE SODDING UNIVERSE rather than admit it's not possible.

So as the Saxon Master was on Earth for a year before the Doctor finally met him and the Missy Master was locked in a cellar for decades prior to 2018 thereby overlapping with at least some of the ‘historicals’ and Galifrey was never destroyed and River Song was about. It’s safe to say that the Doc’s whole “I can sense other Timelords” claims are bogus.

So as the Saxon Master was on Earth for a year before the Doctor finally met him

That was the Archangel Network, drowning him out (or something).

and the Missy Master was locked in a cellar for decades

Yeah, but she comes from an alternate timeline, one where the Doctors cheated and saved Gallifrey. You can't expect the Doc to spot echoes-of-potential-futures, in fact (no doubt due to the Time War being time-locked) he can't even spot pre-Time-War Time Lords wandering the universe...

The arc angel network wasn’t online instantly, surely Doc should have sensed him the moment he arrived in the 21st Century and are we sure that Doc changed history?

Of course the real reason is that Moffat forgot that the Doc could allegedly sense other Time Lords.

Also what about River Song?

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As the 3rd Doctor stated, he is a galactic yo-yo. They allow him to travel while using him to do their dirty work from time to time. Sometimes they reign him in again to punish or use him, no wonder he talks harshly of them, yet he will swallow his pride to save the cosmos for them. Kind of a love hate relationship so to speak.

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OK, now I'm actively worried about that female computer the Time Lords have...

"female" voice assistants have been programmed to be subservient and obliging – even in the face of sexual harrassment.

O_o

I realize people get turned on by different things, but aren't those stupid things basically cylinders???

Years ago I laughed at an adult webcomic that had a guy turned on by wooden crates, now I'm wondering if it was meant as a documentary. 8-o

It's the symbolism of the thing. These assistants are programmed to behave like good subservient and obliging females, because that's what females are supposed to be. Ever saw or read the Stepford wives? Same principle, except these are not fictional.

Which is obviously complete ••••••••. Virtual assistants are programmed as pleasant females because psychological research shows that people relate much better to such entities. Even women prefer to deal with female sounding virtual assistants.

It's the same issue with the child gynoid VICI in the 1980s series "Small Wonder" being kept in the young son's closet. While VICI could only ever be used as a female petting object, it does raise serious issues.

I'm just wondering WHICH 5% of Time Lords in Deadly Assassin are making 'unambiguously sexually explicit' advances towards that computer.

It's probably more than 5% given that they apparently had no ACTUAL women to harass...

(Billions of years beyond your petty human obsession with gender and its associated stereotypes my arse.)

The Book of Whoniversal Records:

'The Tenth Doctor says there are 2.47 billion children on Gallifrey at the time. If, like on Earth, there's an average 1.25 children per adult on Gallifrey, we're looking at a total population of about 5 billion people. So the Daleks [a billion billion according to the War Doctor] massively outnumber them' - blimey, I'd never looked at the Time War in terms of numbers before, it's interesting but why the hell would people with thirteen lives and thousands of years have the same number of kids as humans?

These assistants are programmed to behave like good subservient and obliging females, because that's what females are supposed to be. Ever saw or read the Stepford wives? Same principle, except these are not fictional.

Which is obviously complete ••••••••. Virtual assistants are programmed as pleasant females because psychological research shows that people relate much better to such entities. Even women prefer to deal with female sounding virtual assistants.

Actually I'm not sure it IS complete ••••••••, given that Siri was programmed to deflect questions about feminism and respond to being called a 'slut' by saying 'I'd blush if I could.'

pleasant females because psychological research shows that people relate much better to such entities.

Reminds me of a story my dad told me about the Air Force putting warning systems using female voices into planes. After several crashes they discovered that the old married pilots automatically tuned out a female voice telling them what to do. So they had to replace the female voices with male ones.

They didn't HAVE to.

LET the •••• planes crash, Darwinism in action...

That's fine for the pilots, but those planes ARE expensive

More from the DWCA/DrWhoAustralia:

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Time Lords have definitely have at least *some* sort of telepathic abilities, though it wasn't until McCoy's run that they started becoming more "Vulcan Mind Meld"y. Previously, we've seen:

* Susan's telepathic abilities in the Sensorites,
* The whole "Contact" conference-call technique used in multi-Doctor stories
* sending psychic visions via the matrix and using the TARDIS telepathic circuits and those telepathic message cubes at the end of The War Games to send messages to the Time Lords (though these are enhanced via technology)
* The Time Lords abilities to wipe Jamie and Zoe's memories at the end of The War Games, force the Doctor to regenerate against his will, and then wiping and later restoring the Doctor's knowledge of time travel access codes during his exile on Earth.
* Borusa/Rassilon's mind control abilities in the Five Doctors
* the 6th Doctor's assertion that he is "psychically very well endowed"
* Plus the countless psychic attacks that the Doctor has had to fight off over the years.

Most of these would fall under the umbrella of having innate "psychic defenses" and being able to "send/receive psychic messages with other Time Lords or similarly telepathic races" but we do know that the Time Lords (collectively) have abilities to edit people's memories, though it's not clearly explained whether this is accomplished with advanced technology or through training of an innate ability (perhaps with multiple Time Lords acting together to force their will on another).

Where it starts to get a little fuzzier are the Doctor and Master's ability to hypnotize people and/or put them into trance states. This is often described as hypnotism, but clearly goes beyond the abilities of normal humans, so it might be implied to be an extension of the Time Lords' innate psychic abilities.

This line gets blurred even further by the time we get to the 7th Doctor, where he demonstrates the same abilities used by the War Lords in the War Games to temporarily Jedi Mind Trick people (I think they forgot that only The War Chief was supposed to be Gallifreyan) plus use his "one finger" psychic knock-out ability seen in Survival. (This could possibly have been Venusian Akido, but the sound effects played over it implies it was some form of mental attack.) The Doctor also does some odd "pressure point" healing on Ace after she jumps through the window and injures her leg during Remembrance of the Daleks. Again, it's never specifically indicated whether this is psychic or not, but these are the two closest examples I can think of that might be classified as "psychic ability through physical contact."

The 7th Doctor's psychic abilities (and the ability to LITERALLY mess with Ace's head and access/absorb/wipe her memories) got greatly expanded upon in the subsequent New Adventures novels and comics, which is why lots of people accept it as cannon, but the original televised series was far more vague about what Time Lords could and couldn't do.

I'd say pretty definitively the Time Lords (plural) could *totally* read your thoughts, wipe your memory, and make you spend the rest of your life clucking like a chicken.

The Doctor... not so much... though this is likely because he never bothered to take the time to hone those particular Time Lord abilities. (Remember, pretty much every other Time Lord can control who they regenerate into.)

The Master certainly seemed far more skilled when it came to psychic manipulation, and if you count Shada as canon, then Salyavin (and to a lesser extent, Cho Je from Planet of Spiders) would be the far outlier example of what a Time Lord could do with both a combination of lucky genetics and considerable training

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The Master certainly seemed far more skilled when it came to psychic manipulation

Since when? Once forewarned, Peri and Jo - not the two brightest or strongest minds in the universe - were perfectly able to resist.

I'm sure there is a plan in the works to bring back the Time Lords again if need be.

Most likely, they scarpered off Gallifrey when the Master attacked.

That's a point. Why isn't JODIE! trying to track down survivors instead of wandering off on bog-standard 'adventures' in a mardy mood? Hell, why isn't she tracking THE MASTER down and dismembering him? He destroyed Gallifrey because SHE gave him about fifty million second chances (even when she was a 'no second chances' kinda guy) and it's way past time she dealt with him before he destroys half the universe. Again.

Something for the writers to consider.

OK, it turns out she IS hunting him down (Fugitive of the Judoon). She's just being quite discrete about it.

I think the •••• ••••• need a long rest, don't we all?

They're dead.

Fugitive of the Judoon:

'Talk about sledgehammers to crack a nut' says Gat. Gallifreyans have such expressions? Or is this YET ANOTHER Time Lord UTTERLY OBSESSED with sodding Earth for some reason?

'We had such a moving funeral for you' - DO Time Lords bother with moving funerals? Given that they KNOW the person will live on forever (or at least until Tom comes blundering in) in the Matrix? I know Tennant made a big deal of the Master's funeral pyre but I've always assumed that was just to make sure he was dead. And I know Rassilon had a dirty great tomb but everyone knows that HE'S not dead...

Since when have Time Lords gone in for MEDALS? WHY HASN'T THE DOCTOR GOT ONE, NAY, DOZENS?

Why does Gat tell the Judoon to kill Lee and then do it herself?

'Two of the same Time Lord can't occupy the same space at the same time. It's an abomination. It'll destroy the time streams before you get anywhere near Gallifrey' - the HELL they can't!

JODIE! can't tell Gat's a Time Lord without sonicking her?

The Eleven (Doom Coalition 1):

'I was the One' - you weren't really, were you. You had a proper name/title like any other Time Lord, given until the first regeneration no one KNEW he was suffering from regenerative dissonance.

'He's arrogant enough to think he can win' - er, yes, Eleven, that's because the Doctor always DOES win. You must have...noticed?

'I want the rest of me to stay where I am' - nice line but they can't really do anything else can they.

'Witness the rise of chaos and the rise of the new universal order!' - aaaand still, the Doctor later goes on to TRUST the genocidal maniac?

The Eight/Nine (Doom Coalition 3):

'They're coming' - now would be a great time for Octavian to just...refuse to regenerate a la Master-in-Last-of-the-Time-Lords. Cos you KNOW ('See you on the inside, Eight') that you're gonna be trapped inside the maniac committing genocidal acts whilst you helplessly squabble with your other thoroughly-evil selves forever so what the hell have you got to LOSE?

Also, the Nine is just BORN a kleptomaniac? WHY, exactly? I mean, it's an odd turn for destroy-the-universe evil to take...

Timeless Adventures:

'While concerned about burdening a new, incoming production team with a rigidly established mythology, there was also a strong possibility that the series might have ended entirely in 1969, so they felt under some obligation to provide a conclusion to the show's past six years with some answers to the big question of the Doctor's identity' - THAT'S why we got Time Lords?! Cos they thought Who was gonna DIE?!

Actually, that would explain why they didn't worry about how Who would COPE with Time Lords...(SPOILERS: badly.)