• Show Board 2 July 03 - 1:38 am

Spoiler:

Archer and Mayweather break the warp 5 barrior and begin to evolve, eventually turning into salamanders as judgment for breaking a barrior the Klingons didn't want them too.

Who's been overdosing on episodes of ST:Voyager, then, Hmmmmm........

OMG!!! A PREQUEL TO "THRESHOLD"!!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!

*scans skies for the other three horsemen of the apocalypse*

Why must I be a sinner?!?

Hmmm... no "Show Board" yet....

Well, anyway, here we go, and be warned, there may be

SPOILERS

I liked the episode very much. I thought that Hertzler was great as Kollos. I'm really hoping that his character makes a return in approximately a year's time, when his sentence at Rura Penthe is up. I really loved the descriptions of previous Klingon society, it opens it up to be more than merely a "race of warriors"; the fact that there are other classes besides the warrior class was something that I figured was a given, but had never actually been illustrated, save perhaps Kahlest (Worf's nursemaid) and her neighborhood in "Sins of the Father" (TNG).

T'Pol continues to look rather sickly, and this time I'm almost positive it is a conscious effort on the part of the make-up people. She has very definite lines under her eyes, and she looks much paler than pre-"Stigma".

The production values of this episode were excellent, as usual, but I missed the way they presented the Klingon judge in Star Trek VI, concealed in the shadows. I also loved the Klingon costumes in this episode, especially the guards at Rura Penthe. I was, however, really hoping to see one of those nasty dog-things that were in STVI.

All in all, one of season two's better shows. I'm looking forward to the follow-ups to this episode in "Bounty" and "The Expanse."

It's "Kolos", not "Kollos", according to startrek.com.

NANJAO: Kollos was the Medusan in Is There In Truth No Beauty?(TOS).

Man, have these guys run out of creative ideas or what? First a holodeck on an alien ship, then the Borg coming in a future episode, now a modified version of Star Trek VI?

Is it just me or does anyone else think that the writers need a rest?

You know, Harvey, if TPTB went with all new races and all new stories and never looked back, the fans would complain that it "doesn't feel like Trek". Methinks the creators are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I have to admit that i haven't seen this episode yet (bleeping local station decided to run some local high school basketball championship game!), but it sounds more like a homage to Star Trek VI rather than a ripoff. The similarities sound a little too close to STVI for someone to try to pass it off as original.

I have never (and will never) envy the writers of Star Trek. They would have to turn out work of Shakespearean quality in order for some fans to be happy. Others want them to die. Still others think they should be locked in a room for eternity so that they can create the most perfect scripts ever. I tell ya, I'd never want to write for Star Trek.

TUE

This one was written by David A. Goodman, an obvious Trek fan, if his Futurama episode is anything to go by.

I liked that the disgraced Klingon captain was named Duras. It's a nice continuity nod to the future.

Those dilithium mines were much better lit in Archer's time than in Kirk's. I remember the mines in the movie being much darker.

The story ended with a surprising number of unanswered questions. Among them:

How was Archer captured?

Why were no other members of Enterprise taken into custody? For that matter, why wasn’t Enterprise destroyed?

What did happen to the refugees?

And what about the discrepancies between Archer and Duras’ stories? Why did Duras needlessly embellish his version?:

Why say Enterprise fired first? Duras would have needed no justification for firing first.

Why say his warp engines were incapacitated? According to Archer’s version, it wasn’t possible that Enterprise rendered them inoperative.

I imagine some of these questions will be dealt with in future shows. But I also see how this one story could have easily been broken into a three-part arc: 1. Enterprise encounters fugitives and fights off Duras. 2. Archer is captured and faces tribunal. 3. Archer is sent to mining colony and the crew rescues him.

That way, each part of the story could have been more thoroughly developed. As it was, the sudden shift to a mining colony after 45 minutes of courtroom scenes was jarring and diminished the traumatic impact of Archer serving time there.

Other nits and notes:

-- Melodramatic teasers are losing their effect on me. Before “Faith of the Heart” finished, I realized there was no way the Klingons would put Archer to death. (But, later I was really surprised when they actually sent him to the mining colony.)

-- The Klingon courtroom room reminded me of the pit from the Voyager episode that had the Rock in it. If I remember correctly, J.G. also was in that one.

-- It’s a recurring motif on Enterprise: Prisons with no other prisoners.

-- How was Archer able to understand the Klingons? In STVI, Kirk and McCoy held speakers to their ears to hear the translation. But here, Archer didn’t appear to have any form of translator. More annoying, sometimes words were left untranslated for dramatic effect. Are we supposed to believe the Klingons were talking in English for Archer's benefit?

-- When Archer admits he fired on Duras’ ship, the prosecutor says that Archer also is guilty of committing an act of war against the empire. So why didn’t he charge Archer with that before the trial?

Inconsistencies in Duras' story... Three Letters: CYA.

The Klingon courtroom room reminded me of the pit from the Voyager episode that had the Rock in it. If I remember correctly, J.G. also was in that one.

Tsunkatse(VOY). Yep, JG played a Hirogen.

i thought that it was okay. Not spectacular, but good enough. It was nice to see the Kligons again in an episode that didn't ••••, and J.G. Hertzler did a good job.

margie: I liked that the disgraced Klingon captain was named Duras. It's a nice continuity nod to the future.
Not only that, Duras son of Toral. In TNG, Toral was Duras's son.

Trike: It’s a recurring motif on Enterprise: Prisons with no other prisoners.
Did we see other cells?

Why were no other members of Enterprise taken into custody? For that matter, why wasn’t Enterprise destroyed? - Trike

I believe there was a reference to the fact that Klingons agreed not to try the entire crew, just the captain.


What did happen to the refugees? - Trike

I don't think this was particularly important. The episode was about Archer being put on trial for his defiance of Klingon law, not how he managed to help the refugees. Presumably, Archer helped them get away from Klingon space.


And what about the discrepancies between Archer and Duras’ stories? Why did Duras needlessly embellish his version?: - Trike

First, as we saw in ST6 and even the way Orak played to the gallery, Klingons like embellishments. The courtroom wasn't about finding the truth. It was a show trial.

Duras was dishonored. He wanted to make sure his version sounded really, really good.


Why say Enterprise fired first? Duras would have needed no justification for firing first. - Trike

As I said previously, Duras was trying to paint Archer as a villain.


Why say his warp engines were incapacitated? According to Archer’s version, it wasn’t possible that Enterprise rendered them inoperative. - Trike

Same thing. Propaganda. How much honor do you suppose Klingons would find in condemning an innocent man? Or a wuss?


-- It’s a recurring motif on Enterprise: Prisons with no other prisoners. - Trike

The plot of Detained was dependent on other prisoners. So there were plenty of other prisoners.

Same with Canamar (though we never saw the prison itself).

I don't recall other prisoners in The Communicator, true. But then, Archer and Reed were suspected of being spies and were in the midst of being interrogated, so they may have been kept separate from traditional prisoners.

Besdies, I saw other prisoners in Rura Penthe.


How was Archer able to understand the Klingons? In STVI, Kirk and McCoy held speakers to their ears to hear the translation. But here, Archer didn’t appear to have any form of translator. - Trike

Kirk and McCoy's Universal Translators were confiscated in ST6, according to Kirk. Perhaps Archer's wasn't, so he had no need for a Klingon translator. It's possible that the confiscation of UTs became a practice later on.


More annoying, sometimes words were left untranslated for dramatic effect. Are we supposed to believe the Klingons were talking in English for Archer's benefit? - Trike

No. But simply that certain words are either not translatable (like curses) or beyond the range of what the UT translates (the gallery chanting).


When Archer admits he fired on Duras’ ship, the prosecutor says that Archer also is guilty of committing an act of war against the empire. So why didn’t he charge Archer with that before the trial? - Trike

Because at this point Orak was trying to dismiss Archer's testimony. Since Archer was basically defending his position by suggesting Duras acted without honor, Orak felt he needed to undermine him.

Just the ones running the franchise
Great Exchange:
Archer: “We have a saying on Earth: You don’t kick a man when he’s down.”
Kolos: “So…are all humans like this?”
Archer: “Like what? Fair?”
Kolos: “Stupid.”

---Not too bad.
Like many episodes of late, this one wasn’t that heavy or theme or originality or intricateness of plot, and I found it to be somewhat average, but with some saving graces.
---Seeing J.G. Hertzler return in his fifth Trek role, and as a Klingon, one with some depth, was obviously welcome. What was very refreshing was seeing that the apparent preoccupation with war and bloodshed we’ve long seen in Klingon culture is a somewhat more recent evolution in their society, and another indication that not all Klingons are soliders, and that lawyers and teachers are valued members of the Empire, as Kolos indicates in Act 3. The philosophical differences between Archer’s human tendency to show compassion for those in need and Kolos’ admonition of noninterference was nicely summarized in their exchange in Act 4 when Kolos chides Archer for trying to defend him from the guards. T’Pol’s past with the Vulcan Ministry of Security was also a nice use of continuity.
---Possibly the best part of the episode was the ending, in which Kolos decides to stay on Rura Penthe because he knows he can’t effect the kind of change Archer talks about as an escaped convict. It was nice to see an unhappy ending, particularly because it wasn’t contrived, but a reasonable extension of both character and plot. The easy way out would’ve been for both he and Archer to escape, and but he stays for reasons that are foreshadowed in his discussions with Archer. I had actually come to like Kolos, and when the episode ended, I worried about whether he would survive for a year in Rura Penthe. In my opinion, when an episode can cause the viewer to care about a character, it succeeds.

---Notes:
We learn a great deal about the Klingon tribunal system in the 2150’s, and we see another 2150’s Klingon ship, the D-5 Battlecruiser.

Add it to the Tote Board, guys: This is the NINTH time Archer has been captured by someone!

---Continuity Nods:
---Phlox mentions to Archer in the beginning of Act 1 that T’Pol told the Klingons that Archer had xenopolycythemia, the same disease that Bones was diagnosed with in For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky(TOS).
---Loads of appearances of past things Klingon. The Klingon Captain who first testifies against Archer is named Duras, and whose father is named Toral, likely ancestors of the characters who first appeared in Sins of the Father(TNG) and Reunion(TNG). Duras says he was demoted to Second Weapons Officer on the Ty’Gokor Defense Perimeter. Although the closed captioning gives the spelling of this location as “Tae’khogo,” I’m assuming this is one of those closed captioning mistakes, and that it’s actually the location first seen in Apocalypse Rising(DS9). And blood wine makes its first Enterprise appearance in Act 3, as does Rura Penthe in Act 4, where Kolos says most prisoners last six months to a year.

---Terms:
xenopolycythemia Disease that Phlox supposedly checks Archer for in Act 1.
Kolos Archer’s Klingon advocate, who introduces himself to Archer in the beginning of Act 1.
J’Hak The Klingon word for “enemy,” which the spectators chant during Act 1.
Prosecutor Orak The Klingon lawyer who prosecutes Archer, and whose success is well-known, as Kolos tells Archer in Act 1.
Duras Son of Toral, the former Klingon Captain who first testifies against Archer in Act 1, and who was demoted to Second Weapons officer on the Ty’Gokor Defense Perimeter for his encounter with Archer.
Ty’Gokor Defense Perimeter Post at which Duras serves as Second Weapons Officer.
Vor’tas The Klingon D-5 Battlecruiser that was formerly commanded by Duras, and encountered the Enterprise prior to the episode, and whose top speed is Warp 6, as T’Pol mentions in the opening scene of Act 3.
D-5 Battlecruiser The class of Klingon vessel to which the Vor’tas belongs, as T’Pol mentions at the end of Act 2.
Rha’darus Location of a Klingon protectorate from which a group of rebels fled, according to Duras in Act 1.
The Judicial Charter of Kholof Document that states that an advocate is entitled to challenge the charges at any point during the tribunal, as Kolos points out in the beginning of Act 2.
isolytic plasma Substance of which the planet’s ring fragments are partially composed, as mentioned in the opening scene of Act 3.
diamagnetic dust Substance of which the planet’s ring fragments are partially composed, as mentioned in the opening scene of Act 3.

Definitely not airport security material
During the depiction of Duras’ encounter with the Enterprise in Act 1, Duras’ asks about the Enterprise’s armaments, and his First Officer says she scans torpedo launchers fore and aft, and low-yield particle cannons. Why can’t they detect the Enterprise’s phase cannons?
It’s like a more boring version of Rashomon
During the encounter between the Vor’tas and the Enterprise, the Enterprise’s torpedo detonates in an irregularly shaped, oblong explosion, but the expansion of the plasma’s ignition is circular. Interestingly, it’s this way in both Duras’ depiction of the encounter in Act 1 and Archer’s in Act 3.
Soon to be added to McDonald’s menu
When Kolos enters Archer’s cell in the opening scene of Act 2, Archer holds up his plate and asks Kolos what it is. Kolos, standing several feet away, and not missing a beat, says, “Targ.” Kolos can identify a hunk of meat from several feet away in a darkened room? Is targ the one and only animal eaten for its meat in the Empire? Or in its prisons?
From the It’s About To Get Really Drafty in Here Dept.:
After the Vor’tas fires on the Enterprise during the flashback seen in Act 3, Reed says that hull plating is at 80%. Does he mean that one fifth of the hull plating is gone? I think he meant to say that the hull’s polarization field is at 80%.
Kinda like after you eat at Taco Bell
In the shot of the plasma’s ignition, none of the ring fragments are moved by the ignition of the gas, but in the next shot, both the Vor’tas and several fragments are repelled by it.
When Shakespeare wrote “First thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers,” I never imagined it would be by overworking them to death!
When Archer spots three new arrivals to the prison in Act 4, Kolos says Prosecutor Orak has been busy. What, Orak’s the only prosecutor in the Empire?

Harvey Kitzman: Man, have these guys run out of creative ideas or what? First a holodeck on an alien ship, then the Borg coming in a future episode, now a modified version of Star Trek VI?
Luigi Novi: Because it features a trial on Kronos makes it a modified version of ST VI? If an episode is to be dismissed on so superficial grounds, then Dear Doctor can be dismissed as a modified version of Data’s Day(TNG).

Trike: How was Archer captured? Why were no other members of Enterprise taken into custody? For that matter, why wasn’t Enterprise destroyed?
Luigi Novi: An interesting question, but I don’t think the episode hinges on it being answered.

Trike: What did happen to the refugees?
Luigi Novi: They were likely brought to safety.

Trike: And what about the discrepancies between Archer and Duras’ stories? Why did Duras needlessly embellish his version? Why say Enterprise fired first? Duras would have needed no justification for firing first. Why say his warp engines were incapacitated? According to Archer’s version, it wasn’t possible that Enterprise rendered them inoperative.
Luigi Novi: Because he’s dishonest, Trike.

Trike: I imagine some of these questions will be dealt with in future shows. But I also see how this one story could have easily been broken into a three-part arc: 1. Enterprise encounters fugitives and fights off Duras. 2. Archer is captured and faces tribunal. 3. Archer is sent to mining colony and the crew rescues him. That way, each part of the story could have been more thoroughly developed. As it was, the sudden shift to a mining colony after 45 minutes of courtroom scenes was jarring and diminished the traumatic impact of Archer serving time there.
Luigi Novi: I don’t think the Rura Penthe scenes were supposed to be about the trauma of Archer serving there, particularly if he was only there a short time before Reed arrived. I think it was about Kolos making a decision that would have consequences for him.

Putting aside the fact that episodes are 42 minutes long, and the court scenes ended after 35 (pick, pick, pick! ), an episode should be more than just one action, like battling Duras. An episode has to be about something on a character level, a thematic level, etc. Given how reluctant the creators are to write episodes featuring anything on that level, I’m glad they wrote one that featured one. Asking them to come up with two other episodes that would’ve need their own subtextual makeup would probably asking them too much. I mean, just how much of the Enterprise battling the Vor’tas could be put into a 42 minute episode to make it interesting?

Trike: It’s a recurring motif on Enterprise: Prisons with no other prisoners.
Luigi Novi: We saw other prisoners there.

Trike: When Archer admits he fired on Duras’ ship, the prosecutor says that Archer also is guilty of committing an act of war against the empire. So why didn’t he charge Archer with that before the trial?
Luigi Novi: Do we know he didn’t?

Seeing J.G. Hertzler return in his fifth Trek role... - Luigi

Actually, his sixth if you include his appearance as the illustrator in Far Beyond the Stars. (pick, pick, pick)


During the encounter between the Vor’tas and the Enterprise, the Enterprise’s torpedo detonates in an irregularly shaped, oblong explosion, but the expansion of the plasma’s ignition is circular. - Luigi

This past 4th of July, I saw a firework explosion that was spherical i{and} star-shaped.


I think he meant to say that the hull’s polarization field is at 80%. - Luigi

Yeah, but "hull plating" takes less time to say.

Kolos can identify a hunk of meat from several feet away in a darkened room?

1. Archer and the plate appeared to be in a lighted area.

2. It was a piece of meat on the bone. If a Klingon had a chicken drumstick, and asked you what it was, wouldn't you be able to identify it across the room?

3. Perhaps targ is the common meal in this prison. As an advocate, Kolos would know.

Darth Sarcasm: Actually, his sixth if you include his appearance as the illustrator in Far Beyond the Stars. (pick, pick, pick)
Luigi Novi: Personally, I don’t count that as a separate role, but rather an extension of his Martok character.

Darth Sarcasm: This past 4th of July, I saw a firework explosion that was spherical and star-shaped.
Luigi Novi: I wasn’t talking about the explosion, but the ignition of the plasma. You can engineer a shaped explosion, but if that shape were that of a star or football, would the ignition occur in a circular pattern?

Darth Sarcasm: Yeah, but "hull plating" takes less time to say.
Luigi Novi: True, but then again, “It’s at 80%!” takes even less than that, and “80%!” takes less more.

ScottN: Lighted area…drumstick…common meal.
Luigi Novi: Good point.

Response to my comments:

Harvey Kitzman: Man, have these guys run out of creative ideas or what? First a holodeck on an alien ship, then the Borg coming in a future episode, now a modified version of Star Trek VI?
Luigi Novi: Because it features a trial on Kronos makes it a modified version of ST VI?

Harvey Kitzman: Yes

LN: If an episode is to be dismissed on so superficial grounds, then Dear Doctor can be dismissed as a modified version of Data’s Day(TNG).

HK: That episode was a modified version of Data'a Day.

TUE: You know, Harvey, if TPTB went with all new races and all new stories and never looked back, the fans would complain that it "doesn't feel like Trek". Methinks the creators are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I have to admit that i haven't seen this episode yet (bleeping local station decided to run some local high school basketball championship game!), but it sounds more like a homage to Star Trek VI rather than a ripoff. The similarities sound a little too close to STVI for someone to try to pass it off as original.

I have never (and will never) envy the writers of Star Trek. They would have to turn out work of Shakespearean quality in order for some fans to be happy. Others want them to die. Still others think they should be locked in a room for eternity so that they can create the most perfect scripts ever. I tell ya, I'd never want to write for Star Trek.

HK: I agree - the writers are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

The point that I was trying to make is that the writers and TPTB have done about as much as they can do. They are now repeating themselves. What's next - T'Pol's Brain? Spirit Folk Part 2?
While I respect the amount of work the writers do, the repetition of episodes is a problem if the writers are not familiar with past episodes. I kept looking for Iman as Martia, and the ending was completely out of character for what we know about Klingons

Other people have made similar comments with other episodes. There is even a board on this Enterprise site - the Future of Star Trek - that talks about similar issues. TV Guide even wrote an article on how to save Star Trek. Sadly, with the flop of Nemesis (a terrible movie that was a half hearted remake of Wrath of Khan), this show is the only non-syndicated repeat of Star Trek out there.

Admittedly, I am a "continuity pornographer" and I have not been a fan of this show's premise from the beginning. (I don't want to get into this again with you TUE.) Before anyone asks "Why do you watch it then?", I have tried to give this show a chance and have hoped that my 30 year association with Star Trek would yield a series that I could get into. Sadly, this is not the case. Even the worst TNG, DS9, or Voyager episodes had some interesting qualities to them.

While this is not the board for this comment, in my opinion, TPTB do one of two things: take a break from Star Trek for about 5-10 years and then come back with a future Star Trek, say 26-30 century, or do a Captain Sulu and the Excelsior show. At least that way we could get some of our old favorite characters making guest appearances, and I still think that there are some good stories left between ST VI and ST:TNG.

My $0.02.

There has always been a fine line between copying and making an homage. From what I've read, the similarities sound too close. It sounds the writer had to be aware of Star Trek VI.

The plots do not have to be original. If TPTB can pull off an old plot in a new and interesting way ("The Nth Degree" on TNG was a new and interesting way of presenting the same basic idea of TOS's "Where No Man Has Gone Before"). The problem is that TPTB are not doing this. They're going for the safe and boring.

I never thought I'd say this, but I kinda wish they'd start doing some unpopular and maybe stretching/breaking continuity. At least it would give us something to rant and argue about. On a four star scale, most of Enterprise's second season has been somewhere in the 2 or 2 and a half star range. This mediocrity is almost worse than the total crappiness of some of Voyager's episodes. (At least you could make wittily derisive comments about "Spirit Folk")

TUE

-- T’Pol identified Duras’ ship as a D-5 cruiser. The most common Klingon ship has been the D-7, which was used in the original series, the movies and TNG -- even as recently as Voyager’s seventh season. That’s more than 100 years of service from the same class of ship. I’ve heard gripes about how little technological advancement that represents for the Klingons. But here we get a potential explanation for why they didn’t improve their ship designs: They made fewer breakthroughs under the influence of the warrior caste.

-- The prosecutor didn’t mention Archer’s encounter with the Klingons in "Marauders." Just a note.

-- Archer tells Reed to release the refugees' ship and go to tactical alert. Immediately the alert lights come on. Part of Reed's automated tactical alert sequence is to polarize the hull plating, but can that be accomplished with another ship still attached?

-- Similarly, during the battle sequence(s), there is no sign of the refugees' ship nearby.

A response: Luigi, if I had pick a character who would be affected on some level during a story, I'd rather it be a regular, not a guest actor. (This is not a knock on Hertzler, whose performance was the high-mark of the show.) I'm just disappointed that after all the buildup for how terrible Rura Penthe was, Archer left with hardly a scratch and no signs of trauma. Compared to STVI, this was like a cartoon version of Rura Penthe, well-lit and with guards using pain sticks that don't scar.

Margie: Those dilithium mines were much better lit in Archer’s time than in Kirk’s. I remember the mines in the movie being much darker.
Luigi Novi: The only portion of the mines we saw in ST VI was the portion where Kirk and Bones lived and worked, and we see an even smaller portion in this episode. It’s possible that the portion seen in this episode is closer to the surface, and that holes in the cave ceiling let more light through. There’s no reason to assume every part of the mine or prison has the exact same level of lighting.

Luigi Novi: Because it features a trial on Kronos makes it a modified version of ST VI?

Harvey Kitzman: Yes
Luigi Novi: To each his own. Personally, I don’t believe two stories are the same simply because they share one superficial set piece. ST VI was an allegorical Trek take on the improved relations between the United States and the Russians at the time that the Iron Curtain fell, with the character arc/theme of Kirk learning to forgive, and learning that sometimes, people must change. This episode was a character arc for Kolos, who at first wanted to write off Archer, and ultimately made a decision to sacrifice a year of his life in a harsh prison in order to affect change in his society, rather than take the easy way out, with some slight Rashomon elements thrown in.

Arguing they’re the same because they feature a Klingon trial would be like saying that ST IV, The First Duty(TNG), and The Outcast(TNG) were all modified versions of Court Martial(TOS) merely because they all feature trials, court martials or hearings, or that The Best of Both Worlds part II(TNG) was a modified version of Encounter at Farpoint(TNG) simply because they both featured saucer separation, and had scenes on the battle bridge.

Stories are more than just one element, one setting, or one plot device.

Luigi Novi: If an episode is to be dismissed on so superficial grounds, then Dear Doctor can be dismissed as a modified version of Data’s Day(TNG).

Harvey Kitzman: That episode was a modified version of Data'a Day.
Luigi Novi: Data’s Day(TNG) was a slice-of-life episode told from the point of view of the outsider character. Whereas Dear Doctor had some of that element, it also had a moral dilemma element that the prior episode did not.

Harvey Kitzman: While I respect the amount of work the writers do, the repetition of episodes is a problem if the writers are not familiar with past episodes. I kept looking for Iman as Martia, and the ending was completely out of character for what we know about Klingons.
Luigi Novi: To me, that statement presumes that all Klingons have one shared character, lack any diversity of personality or belief, and that humans somehow have a monopoly on the traits seen in this episode. Episodes are constantly teaching us more and more about characters and races that we are acquainted with. I personally see little in this episode that contradicts any established Klingon character. The most interesting characters are those that are in some way exceptional, that surprise us, that go against our expectations. Yes, most Klingons do not act like Kolos, but that’s precisely the point. The most interesting people who make their mark in history are often those who do not easily follow the herd.

Moreover, we’ve seen Klingons that shared Kolos’ (and the Magistrate’s) traits. We’ve seen Klingons that shared his occupation in ST VI and Rules of Engagement(DS9). We’ve seen Klingons that shared his broken spirit in ST V and Soldiers of the Empire(DS9) (One of which was portrayed by the same actor). We’ve seen Klingons who were dead set on killing humans who were able to be convinced to make peace with them and help them in Errand of Mercy(TOS) and Day of the Dove(TOS). What’s out of character?

Trike: The prosecutor didn’t mention Archer’s encounter with the Klingons in "Marauders." Just a note.
Luigi Novi: This made sense to me, since the bullies in that episode may not have been members of the Klingon Defense Force, and didn’t report to the High Council. Even if they were, I doubt they’d admit to being outclassed by a bunch of colonists.

Trike: Archer tells Reed to release the refugees' ship and go to tactical alert. Immediately the alert lights come on. Part of Reed's automated tactical alert sequence is to polarize the hull plating, but can that be accomplished with another ship still attached?
Luigi Novi: I don’t see why not.

Trike: Similarly, during the battle sequence(s), there is no sign of the refugees' ship nearby.
Luigi Novi: Because when Duras began firing on the Enterprise, the Enterprise high-tailed it into that planet’s ring system. The refugee ship didn’t follow them, nor did it have any reason to.

Trike: Luigi, if I had pick a character who would be affected on some level during a story, I'd rather it be a regular, not a guest actor.
Luigi Novi: Generally, the writers are supposed to do this, but I don’t mind if an episode features interesting guest characters, particularly if it makes for a good episode. First Contact(TNG) and Distant Origin(VOY) stand out as examples.

Trike: Compared to STVI, this was like a cartoon version of Rura Penthe, well-lit and with guards using pain sticks that don't scar.
Luigi Novi: I don’t recall anything in The Icarus Factor(TNG) that established that painsticks scar in the first place. Besides, Archer and Kolos were wearing thick fur.

What are the odds of two Starship Enterprise captains being tried in a Klingon Court?????

Since the flagship is always at the forefront of exploration, and will often be the point ship during tensions with a hostile neighbor, I wouldn't think the odds very unlikely.

Archer says, "We fought three world wars that almost destroyed us." So that leaves, at least, one world war that didn't destroy Earth. Was it World War I, World War II, the Eugenics War (identified by Spock as a world war), or World War III?

The guard attacks Kolos for not working, then after Archer hits the guard and get zapped by another guard, Kolos & Archer talk for quite a while without any guard zapping them again. Huh?

And where were the guards when Archer was just walking away with Reed?

Finally, what happens when the Klingons discover that Johnathan Archer is captaining Enterprise and not on Rura Pentha for the rest of his life? Are they gonna pull an 'Allo 'Allo gag? "No, I am not Johnathan Archer. I am his twin brother... Johnathan Archer."

TUE - if TPTB went with all new races and all new stories and never looked back, the fans would complain that it "doesn't feel like Trek".

Actually some fans make that complaint now.

T’Pol identified Duras’ ship as a D-5 cruiser. The most common Klingon ship has been the D-7, which was used in the original series, the movies and TNG -- even as recently as Voyager’s seventh season. That’s more than 100 years of service from the same class of ship.

This is relatively minor, but some of the facts are still wrong. First of all, the ship we saw on Voyager was straight from the pre-STVI era, so that's not really a great example to use for the design's versatility. However, we did see it in DS9 a fair bit (especially in The Way of The Warrior, and a couple of others), so it could still be said that it might still be in service in the Nemesis era.

Second, your math is just wrong. The timespan from Enterprise to Voyager is over 200 years, not 100 (It's actually about 220, if you want to get more precise, though personally I don't care too much).

In any case, I just assumed that the D-5 was a smaller-priority ship than a D-7 -- like the equivalent of a Bird of Prey or a Vor'cha Attack Cruiser.

KAM: Archer says, "We fought three world wars that almost destroyed us." So that leaves, at least, one world war that didn't destroy Earth. Was it World War I, World War II, the Eugenics War (identified by Spock as a world war), or World War III?
Luigi Novi: I'm not sure I understand the question, but I don't think the Eugenics Wars are considered a "world war" by most humans or the creators, despite what term Spock used.

KAM: The guard attacks Kolos for not working, then after Archer hits the guard and get zapped by another guard, Kolos & Archer talk for quite a while without any guard zapping them again. Huh?

And where were the guards when Archer was just walking away with Reed?
They went on their raktajino break.

margie: Those dilithium mines were much better lit in Archer's time than in Kirk's. I remember the mines in the movie being much darker.

Trike: Compared to STVI, this was like a cartoon version of Rura Penthe, well-lit and with guards using pain sticks that don't scar.
Q: How man Klingons does it take to change a light bulb?
A: NONE! For it is better to DIE WITH HONOR than to worry about human safety conditions like LIGHTING!

P'tak.

Trike: How was Archer able to understand the Klingons? In STVI, Kirk and McCoy held speakers to their ears to hear the translation. But here, Archer didn’t appear to have any form of translator.

Darth Sarcasm: Kirk and McCoy's Universal Translators were confiscated in ST6, according to Kirk. Perhaps Archer's wasn't, so he had no need for a Klingon translator. It's possible that the confiscation of UTs became a practice later on.
Luigi Novi: Personally, I think the Klingons simply had universal translators in their buildings and prisons. The only reason they gave hand-held translation devices to Kirk and Bones in ST VI was so that Chang could scream, “Don’t wait for the translation!” during his examination of them, which was intended as a homage to a comment ambassador Adlai Stevenson made to Russian ambassador Valerian Zorin at the U.N. during the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962. Here, there was no such homage, and I would opine that if they did allow Archer to keep his UT, it would be another example of how incompetent security is in letting prisoners keep devices that may be used for other purposes.

What’s out of character? - Luigi

One thing that I thought might be a little out of character from what we know about Klingons, is the notion that one (or more) would take a bribe... seems dishonorable to me.

Thank you Darth. My point exactly. And how easy was it for Archer and Reed to leave Rura Pente? Seems a few guards have fallen down on the job.

Well, it was rather easy for Kirk and McCoy to escape, too. But, granted, they were allowed to escape.

Just a few quick comments on Rura Penthe.

On the jailors- being a prison guard is not exactly an "honorable" job in a warrior culture, so there is no reason for the commandant not to be corrupt. Think of the jailors we saw in ST VI. They'd been bribed (presumably) to kill Kirk & Bones and they did break a deal in the process.

On the lighting- This is Rura Penthe ~200 years before ST VI. It is a mine. It makes excellent sense that it will be closer to the surface at this point (and thus better lit) because it hasn't been mined as long.

Darth Sarcasm: One thing that I thought might be a little out of character from what we know about Klingons, is the notion that one (or more) would take a bribe... seems dishonorable to me.
Luigi Novi: But lots of Klingons have been depicted as dishonorable.

General Chang conspired to assassinate his own Chancellor and the President of the Federation.

Ja’rod betray his people to the Romulans at Khitomer.

Duras tried to falsely implicate Mogh as a traitor to his people, and later murdered K’Ehleyr.

K’mpec knew of Duras’ scheme and went along with it.

Gowron was an easily manipulated, micromanager who tried to bribe K’Ehleyr during the Rite of Ascension rewrite the history of the Klingon Civil War to eliminate mention of Starfleet’s help and emphasize the victory as a result of his own courage, who stripped Worf of his family's titles and land simply for refusing to join in the invasion of Cardassia, who refused to reverse his policies toward Cardassian and the Federation even after finding out the Martok who manipulated him into beginning them was a Changeling, and whose irresponsibility in the Dominion War and pettiness towards Martok cost the Klingons many losses.

T’Kar lent his services out as a mercenary, attacked members of the DS9 crew in an attempt to steal the Dax symbiont, and leave Jadzia for dead.

Ch’Pok participated in a scheme to embarrass the Federation into ceasing aid to Cardassians by staging the destruction of an empty Klingon vessel supposedly filled with civilians that actually died three months earlier.

Need I go on? There are loads of other examples, and the ones in this episode account only for some of them. You’re talking about the Klingon ideal, Darth, but Klingons rarely live up to that ideal, and indeed, so do many people fail to live up to the ideals of their cultures. Kolos even laments in the episode that the entire culture has confused any kind of violence or war with honor, bloodshed with courage, etc.

OK, Luigi, I can buy the idea of the use of hand-held translators in STVI as being more "nitworthy" than them not being used here.

Captain Bryce, to my knowledge, we've not seen a D-7 cruiser during Enterprise. My comment was that, with their ship designs, the Klingons only made two more generations (from the D-5 to the D-7) of improvements in the succeeding 100 years before sticking with the same model for better than 100 years. The warrior caste's suppresion of other castes could be used to explained that slowdown in technological innovation.

Just becuase the designs of the ships never changed or hardly ever did doesn't eman the technology didn't. Maybe Humans feel the end for new ships to look new, but this doesn't mean the Klingons do as well. The D-7 style seems to work for them, so why not let them keep it? It worked well enough that is was obviously the basis for the NEW Klingon battlecruiser we saw in TNG, and later that Dreadnoguht size mother in DS9.

Luigi Novi: During the depiction of Duras’ encounter with the Enterprise in Act 1, Duras’ asks about the Enterprise’s armaments, and his First Officer says she scans torpedo launchers fore and aft, and low-yield particle cannons. Why can’t they detect the Enterprise’s phase cannons?
I assumed that they were speaking about the phase cannons. Then again, that leaves out the plasma cannons.

Luigi Novi: After the Vor’tas fires on the Enterprise during the flashback seen in Act 3, Reed says that hull plating is at 80%. Does he mean that one fifth of the hull plating is gone? I think he meant to say that the hull’s polarization field is at 80%
Perhaps "hull plating" is the slang for polarization field and the like. Hasn't it been desribed a "hull plating" before?

Harvey Kitzman: the ending was completely out of character for what we know about Klingons
Which Klingons? Kolos?

Trike: Archer tells Reed to release the refugees' ship and go to tactical alert. Immediately the alert lights come on. Part of Reed's automated tactical alert sequence is to polarize the hull plating, but can that be accomplished with another ship still attached?
It most likely wasn't attached anymore.

Now let's see an episode where a Klingon is found guilty in a Terran Court and his buddies ask Archer to look the other way while the Klingons rescue the prisoner!
I wish they'd have SF pro writers do something with Trek.
There are still so many things we don't know about the Andorians, and other races we've been seeing...
I'll leave it at that; it's been discussed before.

I wish they'd have SF pro writers do something with Trek.

They have, actually. Several TOS and Animated eps were written - or at least based on concepts by - SF luminaries; notably City on the Edge of Forever (Harlan Ellison) Wolf in the Fold (Robert Bloch), Shore Leave (Theodore Sturgeon) and the TAS ep Slaver Weapon (Larry Niven). Also the novelisations were handled by James Blish and Alan Dean Foster.

That said, I wholeheartedly endorse the notion of today's current genre authors getting a crack at the franchise. It might well inject some new life and fresh concepts (Trek cyberpunk, anyone?) into the old formula...

kerrie: Yeah. Eps written by the likes of R.A. Salvatore, Timothy Zahn, or (dare I hope) Peter David would be awesome!

JoshM: I assumed that they were speaking about the phase cannons. Then again, that leaves out the plasma cannons.
Luigi Novi: Actually, now that you mention it, I think she was referring to the phase cannons, which can probably be described as a particle weapon.

JoshM: Perhaps "hull plating" is the slang for polarization field and the like. Hasn't it been described as "hull plating" before?
Luigi Novi: Not that I can recall. If “hull plating” is slang for the field, then what term do they use for the hull plating? I can buy the notion that when Reed says something like “Hull plating is up,” that he’s talking about the field, but when talking about the field deteriorating, I’d think he should specify the field, because talking about the percentage of the plating itself may actually sound like the plating itself coming off the ship.

There are loads of other examples, and the ones in this episode account only for some of them. You’re talking about the Klingon ideal, Darth, but Klingons... - Luigi

Somehow I knew that you'd respond with a huge list to counter a position that I did not make.

I only commented on the bribe because you failed to see what Harvey may have considered out of character for the Klingons. I speculated that this may be what he was referring to, and I was correct.

Of course you can come up with a number of situations where individuals fail to live up to their culture's ideal.

But in many of the situations you were refrering to, the Klingon's dishonorable action seemed to surprise everyone who was only familiar with the Klingon ideal. However, T'Pol's comment that certain Klingons can be persuaded for the right amount suggests that the notion of "dishonorable" Klingons is common knowledge outside the Empire. This, to some, may be interpreted as a change in character.

"But in many of the situations you were refrering to, the Klingon's dishonorable action seemed to surprise everyone who was only familiar with the Klingon ideal. However, T'Pol's comment that certain Klingons can be persuaded for the right amount suggests that the notion of "dishonorable" Klingons is common knowledge outside the Empire. This, to some, may be interpreted as a change in character. "

And you seem to have missed the point of this episode : Not many Klingons in this era are honorable.

Darth,

You were right - I was talking about the Klingons taking bribes.

TJFleming (from the Stigma board):
Hemolytic cell count, radiolytic isotopes, and now neurolytic enzymes . . .
:: Now we can add "isolytic plasma."

Monk hoods' being in fashion throughout the quadrant sure makes it easier to conceal one's identity.

T'Pol: ". . . approaching a fragment, bearing 227 mark 4."
:: So Enterprise is backing up to it?

Xenopolycythemia is supposed to be an incurable disease, at least it was in TNG's "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky."

I just saw the last 35 minutes of this one a little while ago. I wasn't impressed by the execution one bit, but Martok, er, Kolos, was an interesting character and the basic plot was good. However, we really didn't need to see a trial and punishment that directly parallels Star Trek VI, right down to the dialogue. Also, the music by Velton Ray Bunch was obtrusive and overdone in the extreme. For all the criticism of "atmospheric" Trek music, Dennis McCarthy, Jay Chattaway, and David Bell are far better at maintaining restraint and subtlety.

And you seem to have missed the point of this episode : Not many Klingons in this era are honorable. - Rene



Follow the conversation...

Harvey pointed out that he felt the actions of the Klingons at the end were out of character. Luigi asked how so? I speculated that it might have something to do with the whole bribery angle. It turns out I was correct.

I was not taking a position on the whole dishonorable/honorable thing. I didn't dispute anything.

So I don't know how this leads you to some faulty conclusion that I failed to see the point, except as an effort to discredit or insult me. But I thank you for playing.

Darth Sarcasm: I only commented on the bribe because you failed to see what Harvey may have considered out of character for the Klingons.

But in many of the situations you were refrering to, the Klingon's dishonorable action seemed to surprise everyone who was only familiar with the Klingon ideal.
Luigi Novi: Well, personally, I wasn’t surprised in any of those situations, any more than I was surpised in any of the episodes when humans acted less than ideally, such as Court Martial(TOS), The Pegasus(TNG), Paradise Lost(DS9), etc. It’s not like prison guards/wardens are typically depicted as the most honorable people in or out of Trek anyway.

Darth Sarcasm: However, T'Pol's comment that certain Klingons can be persuaded for the right amount suggests that the notion of "dishonorable" Klingons is common knowledge outside the Empire. This, to some, may be interpreted as a change in character.
Luigi Novi: Again, this is just me, but I didn’t interpret this as “common knowledge.” T’Pol is a former member of the Vulcan Ministry of Security, who enlisted the aid of a colleague still in the Ministry. The knowledge that people in such fields possess is hardly “common.”

In addition, the Klingons do not seem to have freedom of the press or objective historians, if Unification partI(TNG) and You Are Cordially Invited…(DS9) are any indication, so it doesn’t surprise me if the less than honorable aspects of their society are not spoken about openly.

TJFleming: T'Pol: ". . . approaching a fragment, bearing 227 mark 4."
:: So Enterprise is backing up to it?
Luigi Novi: Sigh. Just once, I’d appreciate it if the creators would bother to research what terms like this mean.

Or is the ship being piloted by Daffy Duck?

(“Oops. I put the thilly thing in reverse.”)

Hans Thielman: Xenopolycythemia is supposed to be an incurable disease, at least it was in TNG's "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky."
Luigi Novi: True. Obviously, T’Pol and Phlox’s implication that Archer had it was a ruse so that Phlox could see Archer.

KAM: Archer says, "We fought three world wars that almost destroyed us." So that leaves, at least, one world war that didn't destroy Earth. Was it World War I, World War II, the Eugenics War (identified by Spock as a world war), or World War III?
If we're to believe Greg Cox, and possibly Future's End Parts I and II, it would be the Eugenics Wars.

KAM: Finally, what happens when the Klingons discover that Johnathan Archer is captaining Enterprise and not on Rura Pentha for the rest of his life? Are they gonna pull an 'Allo 'Allo gag? "No, I am not Johnathan Archer. I am his twin brother... Johnathan Archer."
It's possible that they may not care that much.

Darth Sarcasm: One thing that I thought might be a little out of character from what we know about Klingons, is the notion that one (or more) would take a bribe... seems dishonorable to me.
I think that this episode indicates that the Klingons may have been slightly less honorable in the 22nd century as compared to the other series. In fact, was Klingon honor ever even mentioned until TNG?

Um, maybe I shouldn't write that.

Trike: Captain Bryce, to my knowledge, we've not seen a D-7 cruiser during Enterprise. My comment was that, with their ship designs, the Klingons only made two more generations (from the D-5 to the D-7) of improvements in the succeeding 100 years before sticking with the same model for better than 100 years. The warrior caste's suppresion of other castes could be used to explained that slowdown in technological innovation.
Actually, in Unexpected, the Enterprise encounters a Klingon ship that closely resembles the D-7 cruisers seen in the 2260s. The ships seen in the movies that look a great deal like the D-7 are K'Tinga-class vessels, first seen in the 2270s and 80s. While the Klingons do still use these ships in the later series, that doesn't mean that it's slow down any more than it means the Federation's technology slowed down because it still uses Miranda, Oberth, and Excelsior-Class starships more than 100 years after their introduction. Wait a sec, Webber already touched on this topic...

TJFleming: Monk hoods' being in fashion throughout the quadrant sure makes it easier to conceal one's identity.
Well, it is freezing cold on Rura Penthe

Luigi - I don't think the Eugenics Wars are considered a "world war" by most humans or the creators, despite what term Spock used.

Which creators? Gene Roddenberry, who created the series and was involved in the production of Space Seed where it was said the Eugenics War was a World War, or Berman & Braga, who don't seem to care much for continuity?

Frankly if Spock looked at the evidence and felt that the Eugenics War met the requirements for a World War, I will take his word over Berman, Braga, Cox, & Novi.

Although thinking about it, I wondered if WWI & WWII really "almost destroyed us"?

And for that matter, wasn't WWI just a European war given a grandiose title?

WWI is probably the one that didn't "almost destroy us."

Had the Nazis managed to build nukes during WWII...

I don't think the Eugenics Wars are considered a "World War" for the simple matter that they weren't given that title. The process by which such wars are named is somewhat idiosyncratic. And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't WWI not called that until WWII? Up until then, it was called The War to End All Wars because no one thought there would be another one.

It was both "The Great War", and the "War to End all Wars".

And yes, it was mostly confined to Europe (with some conflicts in the Middle East).

WWII was much more global in scale (though most stuff in South America and sub-Saharan Africa was not affected).

Exceptions to that parenthetical:
The Graf Spee was scuttled in Montevideo. Dakar was the scene of some battles (but I'm not sure if Dakar is sub-Saharan).

The major point is that, at the time, the Great Powers of Europe controlled vast empires in Africa and Asia. The War put an end to that, but, of course, the "Peace of Versailles" was fatally flawed and it took an even bloodier war to stablize the international system. But I'm rambling.

All in all I think this was one of the BEST eps.
of the season to date.

Here's some of what made it so great:

*The return of J.G.Hertzler playing yet another
honorable Klingon(this time Kolos the Advocate.
aside,I wonder if Kolos is related to Martok...
just a thought).

*The return of the Duras family,one of Star Trek's best clan of villians.Ok,probably Star Trek's ONLY clan of villians.

*The trial providing continuation with Kirk and McCoy's later trial in The Undiscovered Country.

*Kolos' speech during the trial.

*Targ!

Well, personally, I wasn’t surprised in any of those situations, any more than I was surpised in any of the episodes when humans acted less than ideally... - Luigi

Well, I was speaking from the point of view of the characters... Picard certainly seemed surprised at the extreme measures the Council was willing to take at Worf's expense and honor for the security of the Empire, for example.

But I understand your point of view, and even share some of it. I was just saying that I understand Harvey's as well.

There was some fighting in Africa for the German colonies there (today known as Cameroon, Tanzania, Namibia) during WWI. And don't forget the WW0 1756-1763!

kerriem: I knew about the pro writers in TOS; I meant what you said, they should bring in Peter David, et al.
Larry Niven wrote one of the animateds and hasn't ruled out writing for Trek again, last I heard.

Why are they called the Eugenics Wars, plural?

NANJAO:
The Conquests of Alexander, the religious wars of the Reformation, the Napoleonic Wars, The Cold War, could be called world wars, they just didn't think of the term at the time.

Honorable/dishonorable Klingons: Keep in mind, we're only seeing a small segment of the population, specifically chosen to advance particularly contrived storylines; the vast majority might still be honorable. I wonder what the Klingon population is.

One problem is the Klingons might have a flexible definition of what constitutes a "bribe."

Isn't the word Judgement spelled wrong in the title at the start of the episode? Here, you spell it the same way they did, I think it's spelled wrong.

The only positive thing I can find to say is next weeks episode looks even worse.

"Judgment" is the preferred American spelling.

Luigi Novi: . . .wasn't WWI not called that until WWII?
:: Sid Caesar had a very funny bit where he came out as a doughboy and announced "World War I ended today."

Personally, I prefer "judgement," but "judgment" is what I have in my American Heritage Dictionary.

I noticed how polite and reasonable Archer tried to be in Duras during his depiction of the encounter in Act 3. Maybe Archer would've made more headway if he was simply rude and obnoxious towards him. It worked when Wesley acted that way toward him in Coming of Age(TNG), at least against a Zaldan who looked a lot like Duras. (Wink, wink. )

Argh, what illogical spelling - how do you have a soft "g" without the "e"?

For one thing, words like illogical.

But I know what you mean. English is the most complex language in the world because of its nuances in spelling, grammar, and pronunciation (just ask Ricky Ricardo who had difficulty with cough, tough, through, and bough.

However, there are other examples of -ge, -gi, and -gy root words where the e is dropped when adding a suffix. Judgmental comes to mind. As well as plenty of words where a hard g is used despite the vowel following it... get me?

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