So, a week after trying to juggle two plot threads and not quite suceeding, "Enterprise" comes back with an episode that tries to juggle three plot threads at once, which obviously gave the writers hemmorages, as we didn't even get a good wrap-up of one of them, and another seemed more like filler through much of the episode. Still, the main girst of this story was pretty darn good, at least in my opinion. Let's get to it:
Three things I didn't like about this episode:
3) Not really the fault of anyone associated with the show, but the feed we get here in Oberlin (read: Cleveland) had a slight hiccup in it during one of the Trip/Cogenitor scenes, which was kinda annoying.
2) So, Archer and the Vissian Captain were exploring... where? Because what that Vissian pod could do certainly looked like a lot like what the metaphasic sheilding of "Suspicions" and "Descent" was all about. Hmmmmm...
1) Trip tells the Cogenitor that they got the Enterprise's engines up to Warp 5.1 at one point. Did I miss something here? Last I checked, it was a Warp 5 engine, and could barely make that without getting in danger of flying apart at the seams. I suppose they could have done this in an episode I missed, so if that's the case, fine, but otherwise...
Three things I liked:
3) "I have friends who would be equally impressed with MacBeth." The best line from the Archer/Vissian Captain plot is the perfect example of why culture is just so darned important. (Of course, anyone playing CivIII already knows this, but I digress...)
2) The Reed/Traistana plotline, although it never actually got capped off, had some priceless moments. I, for one, enjoyed Reed's not-so-subtle "you go first" when following Traistana into the tube- just go ahead and enjoy that view, Malcom! But even more fun, in the opinion of both me and my friend watching the episode, was "Doesn't this taste sensual?" "Very." A perfectly understated, deadpan delivery from Reed. Very nice.
1) The last scene. Wow. Excellent job from Bakula, conveying the mix of anger and dissapointment Archer felt about the whole situation. By comparison, look at his rants during last week's episode. Dosen't this seem a whole lot more effective? I can't say enough about the excellent job Bakula did. Trip wasn't too bad himself, come to think of it.
Other notes:
So... the Vissian engine room. It was nice to see a warp core that was more like the TNG-era model (even though it had a definite Voyager vibe to it). But... well, the effects crew still doesn't have that green screen technique down, do they?
Meanwhile, I'm wondering why T'Pol had to delegate to Trip this bit about downloading the movies. There's gotta be someone else who can do that, like, say, Travis, with his less-than-five-seconds of screen time, and no lines, either..
Trip's point regarding the Cogentior is that it has the same mental acumen as the other Vissians. They've got to have some outstanding mental acumen, then, as it picks up reading really, really fast. I was definitely a little suspicious of that. But, maybe it's not so far-fetched, given what we get from the Vissian Captain?
So... did the Vissian Engineer say that polymer contained 200 naturally occuring elements? Where'd they come up with all those "naturally occuring elements" anyway? I thought that once you got past a certain point on the Periodic Table, the elements were too unstable (not to mention radioactive up the wazoo) and would thus not last long before breaking up into lighter elements? While I'm willing to grant the possibility that maybe they could exist in nature, no matter how unlikely that seems, doesn't it seem likely that they would be extremely rare? How can they get enough of those elements to be making this polymer? Anyone with more elemental physics knowledge out there?
Trip's squeamishness when Phlox starts talking about Vissian mating techniques is cute, but a little odd. I mean, I don't think the doctor was going to go off on a pornographic tangent, more likely, he was going to simply describe the basic practice of Vissian sex. Why does that get Trip so embarassed? At the very least, I hope Reed wasn't in for a "The Outcast"-esque surprise...
Archer and the Vissian captain were supposed to be out in that pod for three days? Uh... did that seem odd to anyone else? The pod didn't seem that big. Where did they sleep?
Altough I should say I really liked the pod's controls. The way the helm console slid from one seat to the other was great.
I think startrek.com is trying to throw the viewers astray a little! One of the preview photos they showed for this episode was labeled "Reed takes aim," showing everyone's favorite Tactical officer pointing a phase pistol at something. Funny how that never made it to the episode.
All in all? Well, the pace seemed a little rushed here; I think that maybe the Reed storyline could have been dropped, or some of the Archer/V.C. scenes pruned. But overall, I liked this. The ending was quietly disturbing, showing us that maybe the crew is finally getting it into their heads that there are consequences out there, dammit! Grade: A-. Next week: Resistance is... something. And I should add that the idea of the Enterprise "EVENT" is by now, totally cashed.
8 varieties of stinky cheese and no one mentioned Limburger?
SURPRISING MESSAGE OF THE WEEK: I thought for sure they were going to make the aliens wrong. I was almost certain the message was going to be about equal rights for both sexes. Instead I was pleasantly surprised to see Enterprise take the less travelled route and say that the aliens might be right. This was one of Enterprise more cerebral outings (not quite up to par with some of TNG or DS9's offerings but they're headed in the right direction)
DRESS DOWN OF THE WEEK: Boy did Archer ever let Trip have it. I almost thought Archer was going to be swayed but he stuck to his guns. This is the captain I want to see. And boy did Trip ever need that little rant.
IMPERFECT HUMAN OF THE WEEK: Can you believe it? One of our heroes was WRONG!! And he got chewed out for it. Excellent. We need more of this. We need less of 'humans are always right'.
TECHNOLOGY GLIMPSE OF THE WEEK: Did the Vissians have the metaphasic shielding that we saw in TNG's "Violations"?
DAIRY PRODUCT OF THE WEEK: Cheese! Cheese! Wonderful Cheese! Ever since Voyager was almost destroyed by the stuff back in "Learning Curve", I'm always wary when the food product shows up. Fortunately there were no cheese dangers in this episode which is a gouda thing! (HA! I kill me!)
FUZZY MATH OF THE WEEK: Trip tells the cogenitor that they've gotten the engine up to warp 5.1. I have no problem with this. One would assume that in two years of using the thing that they could make a few marginal improvements. Though I find it odd that it's never been mentioned before now.
BORROWED ACTOR AND MAKEUP OF THE WEEK: I thought the makeup of the aliens looked familiar. As I was watching I thought they looked like the aliens from Voyager's "Repentance". After browsing a bit, I discovered that not only is the makeup remarkably similar, but that the actor who plays the engineer in this episode (F.J. Rio) played a convict (the one who tries to befriend Neelix) in that episode. (Cue Twilight Zone music)
NEEDED DATABASE UPGRADE OF THE WEEK: What is with the Enterprise's selection of movies? "The Day the Earth Stood Still"?? Does Starfleet not think that there were any good movies made prior to 1950?
HYPOCRICY OF THE WEEK: This is really picky nitpicking but I'm going to mention it anyway. Trip goes on and on about how the Vissians should give the cogenitor equal rights. Yet isn't he forgetting that his own society doesn't allow women to captain a starship (as stated by Dr. Lester in TOS's "Turnabout Intruder")? (It's my opinion that TOS made a HUGE mistake by making that statement.)
ENTERPRISE EVENT OF THE WEEK: The trend continues with the "Enterprise Event" in the preview for next week.
OVERALL OPINION OF THE WEEK: I really enjoyed it. We need more episodes like this.
TUE
So did Reed get the alien? Inquiring minds want to know....
Oh, yeah, TUE, I thought the Vissians looked awfully familiar! And for me it was more than the makeup and the actors (though I knew I had seen the engineer before), I thought the costumes seemed familiar, too...
In TNG episode “Suspicions”, it is a very big deal that they are able to fly a shuttle into a star for a short period of time. I mean downright awe inspiring to the people involved. Is the prolonged star surfing here all that different? Is it just me or does Enterprise seem to thrive on the short memories of previous spin-offs?
The idea that these aliens can learn and retain information so quickly hurts the believability of this episode. If the cogenitor can learn to read in a day, it should be able to learn many things by just observing. To accept that the cogenitors are all totally uneducated basically requires that they either be very isolated or they have been convinced (brainwashed, really) that they should not and cannot learn. Both are very ugly concepts.
Now to the main plot. When I finished this episode, I was very annoyed with it. Hopefully now that I have calmed down, I may speak intelligently. Or not. Please excuse me if I fail.
I don’t find the attitudes of either T’Pol or Archer to be believable. Now I don’t mean this in the “proto-Prime Directive” sort of way. T’Pol has always been a stickler for that sort of thing and Archer seems to have been leaning that way (though I think he is clearly biased by his adventures with G’Kar).
But this is the same T’Pol that in “Stigma” was persecuted for a mind meld. And she strongly pointed out how she thought the persecution in general was unfair even to the point that she wouldn’t admit extenuating circumstances that would have gotten her off the hook. From her conversations with Trip, my general impression is she could care less about the cogenitor’s plight. IIRC, there wasn’t even a “I don’t like it either BUT” line.
Archer, IMHO, is even worse. First, when he talks with the Vissian Captain and the married couple about the asylum request, he makes at best a half-hearted attempt to come to some sort of compromise or agreement. If he has any compassion at all, he knows that things cannot go back the way they were and try to convince them of that. He gives up after the husband gives the most lame and ridiculous analogy I’ve ever heard in my entire life. Second, he makes a grand production to Trip on how one life was lost and how one child will not be conceived (or at least delayed). This is from a person who is directly responsible for the probable deaths (genocide, really) of an entire race in “Dear Doctor”. Give me a break. Archer would have to have a really short memory or would have to be completely shameless to push such an argument. Third, if Archer did a little thinking, he might have appreciated that before Trip the cogenitor was nothing more than a slave (and at least most slaves have names). “It” lived more in the days with Trip than it could expect to live in a lifetime. Does he really think that it would have been better for the cogenitor to be an ignorant beast for the rest of its life instead of being able to make a decision (albeit a tragic one) for itself? Amazingly, he seems to refuse to even entertain the idea, which is downright odd since he greatly resents the fact that the Vulcans held back his father from his potential.
Both T’Pol and Archer come across as flat characters and hypocrites to boot. Add in Phlox’s moralizing last episode about the “will of the patient” after what he’s done and it makes for an unpleasant viewing experience. It’s a pity since this was generally a good episode.
PaulG: This is from a person who is directly responsible for the probable deaths (genocide, really) of an entire race in “Dear Doctor”.
No, he is not responsible for their possible deaths. If he had never encountered their race, they would have died off anyway. His influence did not and will not lead to the extinction of their species. Trip's influence on "Charlie" did.
I've got a bad feeling about next week. Time travel anyone?
Richie, just so you know, the Vissian Captain was named Drennik, and the second Vissian woman was named Valo. Apparently, startrek.com didn’t get all the info.
(Oddly enough, Reed’s line was the heading I thought up when Valo first said hers.)
Great Exchange:
Valo: “I’m anxious to see your tactical array.”
Reed: “I’ll show you mine if you show me yours.”
---Holy sh*t.
A good, solid episode with a fairly good dilemma, and possibly the most powerful ending on Enterprise thus far.
---I’m sure there are probably going to be plenty of people comparing this episode to The Outcast(TNG), but the permutations of the issues explored were divergent enough from that episode, both in their details and their execution, as well as the characters involved, for me to enjoy it as somewhat fresh. Here, Trip was not in love with Charles, but concerned that her rights were being violated, and the moment when he gave her a reading guide was a powerful one. The fact that the Vissians appeared to not only be extremely friendly, but have much to offer the Enterprise technologically, certainly made it understandable that ticking them off would not be advisable, and the dangers of interference were well-handled, better I think, than they were in The Communicator. The episode also had a far greater emphasis on the interference issue than The Outcast(TNG) did, and Archer’s reaction to Trip’s actions was really well-done. The episode was restrained in not giving Charles a happy ending, much as The Outcast(TNG) did with Soren, yet it was sufficiently different, and possibly more tragic. All in all, not the most original episode, but that final shot of Archer and fade-out to the credits was perfect.
---That said, this episode is possibly also the worst-edited episode of Trek I’ve ever seen. First, there’s manner in which Trip managed to scan “Charles” so Phlox could determine her mental capabilities without the Vissian engineer or his wife knowing, and the manner in which Charles managed to show up in Enterprise’s Engineering without anyone knowing after Trip was banned from their vessel. Then, after Archer meets with the Vissians in Act 4 to decide whether to give Charles asylum, we see him and T’Pol walking through the corridors, as she tells him that he made the right decision. We see them open the door to Trip’s quarters, where Trip and Charles are in there. We then see the Vissian ship disengaging from the Enterprise. Archer and Drennik say their goodbyes. Then we see Archer in his quarters, who gets a call from T’Pol telling him that Drennik wants to speak with him. Then Archer tells Trip about Charles’ suicide. Um, hello? They didn’t even say that “Charles” had left the ship! No where between the meeting and the news of the suicide did we get any clear indication of whether or not Charles was granted asylum! Shouldn’t we have learned she was denied asylum before learning she killed herself?
---Notes:
---We learn in the teaser that no Earth ship has ever been withtin 10 light years of a hypergiant star, and that there is an Astrometrics department on the Enterprise.
---Phlox tells Trip in the third scene of Act 1 that the Rigellians have four or five sexes.
---Vissians are a newly encountered race, whose technology is far in advance of Earth’s, who’ve had warp drive for nearly 1,000 years, and who have three genders, the third of which comprises 3% of their population, as the Engineer tells Trip at the end of Act 1. Drennik tells Archer in Act 1 that Visians retain most of what they read.
---Interestingly, T’Pol tells Trip in the beginning of Act 2 that trigender reproduction is “not uncommon.”
---We learn in Act 3 that Archer has gone body surfing in Oahu.
---Terms:
hypergiant The type of star that the Enterprise observes in the episode.
Drennik The captian Vissian ship that greets Archer in the teaser.
Vissia The planet from which the alien ship encountered in the teaser hails, which is more than 25 light years from the hypergiant encountered in the episode.
Trinesium Material that can withstand up to 18,000 degrees, with which Drennik tells Archer in the opening scene of Act 1 his people have been constructing their starship hulls for a century.
stratopod Vissian shuttlecraft that has twice the shielding of the Vissian starship, and which is used to explore depths of stars that the starship cannot reach.
Traistana The female Vissian xenobiologist to whom Trip introduces Reed in the beginning of Act 1.
Valo The female Vissian Tactical Officer to whom Trip introduces Reed in the beginning of Act 1, and whom Reed gives a tour of the Enterprise.
Calla The Vissian Engineer’s wife, whom Trip meets in the beginning of Act 1, who is in charge of the Microgravity Lab on their ship, as her husband mentions in Act 2.
cogenitor Vissian term for a member of the third Vissian gender that is used to allow Vissian couples to conceive children.
Sarium micro-cells Devices used to power some of the weapons that Valo sees in the Armory, as Reed tells her in Act 3.
Klaatu Fictional character played by actor Michael Rennie in the movie The Day the Earth Stood Still, which “Charles” asks Trip about in Act 3.
The universal language of gender confusion episodes
The Vissians have not been encountered by either humans or Vulcans, but no time is needed for the universal translator to establish a translation matrix for Archer and Drennik to speak with each other in the teaser.
They all got squeamish and split when they thought Trip would end up making out with that cogenitor like Riker did in “The Outcast”
Why is Trip the only one in Engineering both in Act 1 when T’Pol brings him the list of movies to download for the Vissians, and then in Act 3 when showing “Charles” around the Enterprise? And for that matter, why is the Vissian engineer the only one in his ship’s Engineering at the end of Act 1, given that his ship is much larger than the Enterprise?
“The One” means indeterminate gender? Sheesh, let’s hope Jet Li doesn’t find out
The Vissian Engineer and his wife refer to their cogenitor as “it,” but according to The Star Trek Encyclopedia, at the end of the entry for Soren, the J’naii character who appeared in The Outcast(TNG), the proper pronoun to use for a person of indeterminate gender is “the one,” and if the universal translator is working properly, this is the term into which the Vissian term should be translated.
Survival of the weirdest
One has to wonder how the Vissians evolved if one of their genders only comprises 3% of the population, as the Engineer tells Trip at the end of Act 1, and for that matter, if they possess the same mental capabilities as the other two, as Phlox indicates to Trip in Act 2.
“Great American Melting Pot” is a good philosophy for immigration, but I never knew it applied to metallurgy too
The Vissian engineer tells Trip at the very end of Act 1 that one of the alloys used on his ship is composed of 200 naturally occurring elements, and says he knows Trip must find it odd, because he read in the Starfleet database that Earth has only discovered 92. So these guys have not only discovered over a hundred transuranic elements, but they’re all stable enough to be used as a polymer (even though a polymer is composed of long-chained molecules, like nylon, polyster or plastic), and can all be used as part of said polymer SIMULTANEOUSLY???!!
Especially after a drag queen parade
The Vissian engineer tells Trip in the last scene of Act 1 that most worlds are only composed of two genders, but T’Pol tells Trip in the second scene of Act 2 that trigender reproduction is “not uncommon.”
He was on the golf course
Trip asks Phlox in Act 2, “You scanned them when they came on board, don’t you always do that?” Well, I don’t remember him doing that when the Retellians first came on board in Precious Cargo. I don’t recall him being present when the future ship was first brought on board in Future Tense. Wouda been nice if he was, though.
And you thought their other technological advancements were important
Wow, isn’t it convenient that the controls on the stratopod are on a sliding track so that Drennik can slide it over for Archer to takeover without getting up and changing seats?
Trip and Charles are a regular Penn & Teller
First, I found it a bit odd that we didn’t see exactly how Trip managed to scan “Charles” without alerting the Vissian engineer. We know that Trip didn’t want him or his wife to know based because when asking the Vissian engineer to see his quarters. he gave a false reason as to why he wanted to see it, telling him that Archer might give him bigger quarters if he saw what the engineer’s looked like. Yet how he scanned “Charles” without the engineer and Calla knowing is glossed over.
---Then, after T’Pol tells Trip that he no longer welcome aboard the Vissian ship, Trip is seen in Engineering, and Charles just shows up there! How did she do this? How did she transport herself to the Enterprise without anyone on either her ship or Enterprise knowing? Does no one guard the airlocks?
Is this a “joules” theme episode, or something? Those that the phase cannons put out have gone down, and we can’t figure out what kind that cogenitor has
In Act 2 of Silent Enemy, Reed stated that the phase cannons are rated for 500 gigajoules of power, but when showing them to Valo in Act 3 of this episode, he tells Valo that they have a maximum yield of 80 gigajoules.
---In addition, ScottN, JoshG, Sophie, and TJ Fleming pointed on the board for that episode that energy should be measured in watts, not joules.
Well, at least this chick didn’t get him pregnant
Does anyone else think Trip was little less careful than he should’ve been in spending time with “Charles” in her quarters, taking her off her ship, onto the Enterprise, and showing her around the ship?
Wait until she meets Boy George
When Trip refers to Charles as “her” in Engineering in Act 1, T’Pol questions why he does this, and Trip replies that the cogenitor looks more female than male. But then T’Pol later refers to Charles as “her” when confronting Trip in Act 3 after he is told he is no longer welcome on the Vissian ship.
Out of the frying pan…
Okay, so Archer is furious with Trip over teaching Charles to read, and in general, over Trip’s total neglect of heeding the dangers of cultural interference, so what does he do while deciding whether to grant Charles asylum? He puts her in Trip’s quarters with Trip!
Kirk: “You really outghta settle down with someone.”
Picard: “Screw diplomacy, I wanna kick some butt!”
Sisko: “We can’t take the Defiant, it has to stay and guard DS9!”
Janeway: “I’m going to do everything in my power to get this ship home as quick as possible.”
Archer: “You’re way too impulsive, and need to think about the repercussions of your actions more.”
Anyone else think Archer is being a bit hypocritical at the end of the episode for telling Trip that Trip needs to learn to weigh the possible repercussions of his actions, and Trip has “always been impulsive?” Let’s review: Archer deposited an alien slug from one world onto another in Fight or Flight. He brings down an away team to another unknown planet, and allows his dog to urinate on it. He later brings his dog down to Kreetassa, whose inhabitants Archer knows can be very sensitive to certain cultural differences, where the pooch urinates all over a sacred tree, and then refuses to apologize until the very end of the episode. He blurts out to the aliens who captured him in The Communicator that he and Reed were enemy agents for no reason. True, Archer may be thinking of Trip’s little unauthorized sojourn with Malcolm in the alien repair station’s computer core in Dead Stop, but hasn’t Archer racked up a much bigger list of egregious offenses?
Sparrow47: So, a week after trying to juggle two plot threads and not quite suceeding, "Enterprise" comes back with an episode that tries to juggle three plot threads at once, which obviously gave the writers hemmorages, as we didn't even get a good wrap-up of one of them, and another seemed more like filler through much of the episode.
Luigi Novi: I only saw one plot thread, that of Trip and “Charles.” I didn’t see the scenes with Reed and Valo and Archer and Drennick to be plot threads at all, though I enjoyed the Archer/Drennick scenes. I also doubt it gave the writers hemorrhages. I mean, it was written by Berman and Braga, for cryin’ out loud. What more damage could it do to them?
Sparrow47: So, Archer and the Vissian Captain were exploring... where? Because what that Vissian pod could do certainly looked like a lot like what the metaphasic sheilding of "Suspicions" and "Descent" was all about. Hmmmmm...
Luigi Novi: Why was this a problem for you?
Sparrow47: The Reed/Traistana plotline, although it never actually got capped off, had some priceless moments.
Luigi Novi: That was Valo. Traistana was the other one.
Maagic: 8 varieties of stinky cheese and no one mentioned Limburger?
Luigi Novi: Not all eight were mentioned. Perhaps that was one of them, and he mentioned it before the scene cut to them, or Valo wasn’t impressed enough by it to ask about it. Besides, is limburger the worst? What about Brie rind?
The Undesirable Element: Did the Vissians have the metaphasic shielding that we saw in TNG's "Violations"?
Luigi Novi: No, because the shielding in Suspicions (not Violations, that was the mind rape episode) was energy shielding. The stratopod’s shielding was derived from the trinesium that made up its hull.
The Undesirable Element: What is with the Enterprise's selection of movies? "The Day the Earth Stood Still"?? Does Starfleet not think that there were any good movies made prior to 1950?
Luigi Novi: Yeah, and it’s not even the first time they mentioned that movie. It was one of the movies being screening during the crew’s time in the nacelle in The Catwalk. (Man, someone has a serious hard-on for that movie.)
The Undesirable Element: Trip goes on and on about how the Vissians should give the cogenitor equal rights. Yet isn't he forgetting that his own society doesn't allow women to captain a starship (as stated by Dr. Lester in TOS's "Turnabout Intruder")?
Luigi Novi: Given all the established continuity the creators have abandoned at this point, that comment is one bit that I would deliberately disregard. We could chalk it up to Lester’s paranoia and instability.
Soul Inflicted: So did Reed get the alien? Inquiring minds want to know....
Luigi Novi: Didn’t you see the end of the episode?
PaulG: To accept that the cogenitors are all totally uneducated basically requires that they either be very isolated or they have been convinced (brainwashed, really) that they should not and cannot learn. Both are very ugly concepts.
Luigi Novi: It’s not impossible to believe if you look at the way slaves have been treated throughout history.
PaulG: But this is the same T’Pol that in “Stigma” was persecuted for a mind meld. And she strongly pointed out how she thought the persecution in general was unfair even to the point that she wouldn’t admit extenuating circumstances that would have gotten her off the hook. From her conversations with Trip, my general impression is she could care less about the cogenitor’s plight. IIRC, there wasn’t even a “I don’t like it either BUT” line.
Luigi Novi:
T’Pol was persecuted by her own people. Trip was not persecuted by the Vissians. The difference is between a person choosing to fight back themselves, and goading someone else into doing so.
T’Pol never asked any of the crew to help her fight her persecution, or for them to interfere in Vulcan cultural affairs. If they had planted the idea for the Melders to fight their persecution, when the Melders had decided not to, she might just as well have objected.
T’Pol’s actions were of her own natural volition. She chose to fight it. Trip, on the other hand, gave “Charles” that reading PADD despite the fact that Charles didn’t ask for it.
PaulG: This is from a person who is directly responsible for the probable deaths (genocide, really) of an entire race in “Dear Doctor”. Give me a break.
Luigi Novi: Give me a break, indeed. The Valakians’ condition in Dear Doctor was natural. Archer wasn’t responsible for their deaths, nor can allowing someone to naturally die out as a race be called “genocide.” Even if one decides that he was responsible, the use of the word “directly” is so inaccurate that it functions as a lie. Similarly, Phlox’s statements on the will of the patient refer to when the patient refuses treatment. It does not constitute giving a species whatever they ask for when there are considerations like the ones in Dear Doctor.
You argue that the two instances constitute hypocrisy when they are actually consistent with each other. In both cases, Archer did want to interfere with the natural progression of both societies. He chose not to interfere in the prior ep because it would’ve affected the Menk, and didn’t want Trip to interfere in this one. Where’s the inconsistency?
PaulG: Third, if Archer did a little thinking, he might have appreciated that before Trip the cogenitor was nothing more than a slave (and at least most slaves have names). “It” lived more in the days with Trip than it could expect to live in a lifetime. Does he really think that it would have been better for the cogenitor to be an ignorant beast for the rest of its life instead of being able to make a decision (albeit a tragic one) for itself? Amazingly, he seems to refuse to even entertain the idea…
Luigi Novi: He does not refuse to entertain the idea. He tells Drennik that because “Charles” requested asylum, he must consider it, and Drennik’s reference to the incident as having occurred “yesterday” when saying good bye via the main viewer would indicate that Archer may have taken up to a day. Did you miss these indicators, Paul?
That said, I was disappointed that Archer didn’t grant her asylum. I mean, why didn’t he? What reason was there? The episode doesn’t even firmly establish that he didn’t give it to her until Archer tells Trip that she committed suicide!
Archer invites the aliens over for dinner, but doesn't find out about their nutrutional or health requirements first?
The Vissian mentioned that humans have only discovered 92 elements, which seems wrong given that 114 or 115 have been discovered. Although he could have meant naturally occuring, not made in a laboratory, but I thought it was phrased poorly if that was the intent.
The controls of the stratopod are based on 5 spacial axes. What are the other two? Time & Space? (Doctor Who ref)
I don't think the Cogenitors position in Vission society was well thought out. Basically they are in the catbird seat. If they refused to 'play along' it would seriously affect future generations. If the Cogenitors are as smart as the other two genders I would expect them to be more like high-priced call girls selling their services. Another potentially interesting angle would have been the brainwashing idea that PaulG mentioned.
I didn't care for how they did the ending. They had been showing us the characters close-up, then they pull back & don't show us the emotional situation of Archer saying he didn't grant asylum, they didn't show Trip or Charles reactions to this, they just sort of skip over this stuff as if the writers either ran out of time for these scenes or the writers didn't know how to write these scenes, and we find out after the fact that Charles had killed itself. Yeesh!
I also didn't care for Archer's rant. I think of a scene from the movie The Bold And The Beautiful where Kirk Douglas' character is telling a writer not to have a character speaking a lot of dialogue about her grief when they can just show the expression on her face and let the audience imagine what's going through her head. I think Archer's rant might have been more effective if he had said less.
So, what would have happened if the 'couple' gave birth to a cogenitor?
They make a big deal out of the possibility that they won't be able to have a child. I can understand how that can be a big deal to a 'couple' trying to grow their family. But I get the feeling that if the child was a cogenitor that they wouldn't even raise it.
Another interesting question. Since cogenitors are assigned to couples maybe the Vissian government raises them? That way they could insure that the cogenitors don't learn to read or realize just how smart they are.
I wonder if there would have been copyright problems with downloading all those movies for the Vissians. Perhaps most of the movies would have been in the public domain.
It's too bad Captain Archer didn't serve the Vissian captain Swedish meatballs. Andreas Katsulas played G'Kar on Babylon 5. G'Kar was fascinated by Swedish meatballs.
The Day the Earth Stood Still was directed by Robert Wise, who directed Star Trek: The Motion Picture.
Luigi
I think they were meant to be seperate plot lines but they just ended up filler.
Relatively speaking this episode was fairly interesting but doesn't stand close scrutiny.
The question raised about giving birth to cogenitors is a good one. If having a child is such a long process, seems like giving birth to even a cogenitor would be viewed as fairly special to its parents. I can't see them mistreating or undervaluing them.
And if cogenitors are a relative rarity, yet essential to their race, seems like they would be more highly valued.
And shouldn't this race have created a pronoun for their 3rd gender besides "it"?
Also, why is Archer making the decision about a request for political asylum on his own? Shouldn't that be a decision above his pay grade, like by the phantom government back on Earth--?
Seems like Archer makes the same mistake that Trip does, making a decision on his own instead of taking his concern/problem to his superiors.
This is quite possibly my favorite, if not the BEST epsiode of the series! To quote a reviewer who hated Star Trek I but gave a glowing review to Wrath of Khan (I think she worked for the Washingotn Post, I'm going off of memory here), "Now this is more like it!" This is the kind of epiosde I had hoped to se ever since before I saw Broken Bow. Not only did we get to see Humans (well, A human) fall flat on their faces, but for once we get an alien species that doesn't shoot first and ask questions later. In fact I was very pleased at how rational everyone involved (except for Trip) acted. This reminds me of some of the better SF novels I've read in my time. Of course it had it's problems. Even the best episodes of TV shows do, be it editing, or advertisers (who have WAY too much power what we see), or suits who wouldn't know art if it bit them on the [Edited for content -Roving Mods], but in spite of all that this episode gets an A+ in my book.
The Undesirable Element: Trip goes on and on about how the Vissians should give the cogenitor equal rights. Yet isn't he forgetting that his own society doesn't allow women to captain a starship (as stated by Dr. Lester in TOS's "Turnabout Intruder")?
Luigi Novi: Given all the established continuity the creators have abandoned at this point, that comment is one bit that I would deliberately disregard. We could chalk it up to Lester’s paranoia and instability.
Thank you Luigi! I've been saying something like that about the Romulans with Warp: Do they or don't they question all along. Frankly there are a few things from TOS that I'd LIKE TPTB to forget about and you just mentioend one of my top 3!
Soul Inflicted: So did Reed get the alien? Inquiring minds want to know....
Luigi Novi: Didn’t you see the end of the episode?
Hmmm...After Reed met his "counterpart" and she made a pass at him which made him bump his head on the bulkhead there is not another scene with him again...So did he take her up on her offer? Maybe you were confusing my statement as meaning Trip?
And also about everyone saying there wasn't a scene about how Archer did not grant Charles asylum...Right before the 2 ships departed from one another there is a scene where Trip and Charles are in his quarters and Archer comes in...That scene only has one line of dialogue "Come in" and then everyone looks uncomfortably at one another...
I thought that scene was quite effective in conveying that asylum was not to be granted.
I sure didn't need everything spelled out to me in the form of dialogue...
I'd like to throw my support in for this episode-it's definitely one of their better ones to date. It was nice to see what Andreas Kastulas looked like without the G'Kar make-up. I didn't even recognize him! I will say, however, that I think they should have completely gotten rid of the filler stuff and concentrated solely on main plot (the cogenitors)
Nits:
If cogenitors are required for procreation, I'd expect them to make up a larger portion of society. Otherwise, it would be nearly impossible for procreation to occur in the early days. The last I heard there were twice as many women as men in the world (I don't remember where I heard this exactly, so feel free to correct me if necessary)-which would be approx. 66% women, 33% men (yes, I know that's only 99%, but I don't feel like working out the exact figures!) Even given af 50-50 ratio of male to female, you're still looking at 20% of the population being cogenitor.
Frankly the whole tri-gender thing doesn't make any sense to me. With two genders, the organism just needs to figure out (to put it bluntly) that Tab A goes into Slot B. With three, not only do they need to figure that out, but they also need to figure out that you need a Tab B. It's an inefficient method of procreation. If you can't find a Slot B (which, given that only 3 out of every 100 people would have it, would make it very difficult), then there isn't going to be any reproduction at all.
The most efficient method, is asexual, as far as I can see. (One partner, no waiting). Sexual (two genders) is also efficient-one party has the egg, the other the fertilization. Tri-sexual, however is just silly.
Marc
NEEDED DATABASE UPGRADE OF THE WEEK: What is with the Enterprise's selection of movies? "The Day the Earth Stood Still"?? Does Starfleet not think that there were any good movies made prior to 1950?-TUE
Actually, it's an improvement over ST's normal "Nothing good ever came out of the 20th century".
The Vissians have not been encountered by either humans or Vulcans, but no time is needed for the universal translator to establish a translation matrix for Archer and Drennik to speak with each other in the teaser.-Luigi
You're assuming they were relying on Enterprise's UT. Given how quickly it worked by TNG, I'm not all that surprised that it would work quickly now (if they were relying on the Vissians). Of course, the crew should have expressed some surprise at this.
Why is Trip the only one in Engineering both in Act 1 when T’Pol brings him the list of movies to download for the Vissians, and then in Act 3 when showing “Charles” around the Enterprise? And for that matter, why is the Vissian engineer the only one in his ship’s Engineering at the end of Act 1, given that his ship is much larger than the Enterprise?-Luigi
Did they show the whole section in any of the shots? I don't recall. If not, then I wouldn't be too concerned. Depending on the duty shift and/or the section of engineering, there may not have been too many people there.
the proper pronoun to use for a person of indeterminate gender is “the one,” and if the universal translator is working properly, this is the term into which the Vissian term should be translated.-Luigi
Again, which translator?
Wow, isn’t it convenient that the controls on the stratopod are on a sliding track so that Drennik can slide it over for Archer to takeover without getting up and changing seats?-Luigi
Yeah, I did find that an unnecessary BILC thing. It's also inefficient. Just what is the copilot doing when the controls are with the pilot?
Anyone else think Archer is being a bit hypocritical at the end of the episode for telling Trip that Trip needs to learn to weigh the possible repercussions of his actions, and Trip has “always been impulsive?” -Luigi
In this case,it's not a nit yet, since we know Archer's been learning. If he's a moron in future episodes, you can throw this back at me ;)
The controls of the stratopod are based on 5 spacial axes. What are the other two? Time & Space? (Doctor Who ref)-Kmorgan
If we knew, the Vissians wouldn't be superior to us ;)
So, what would have happened if the 'couple' gave birth to a cogenitor?-Anonymous
You know, I was bothered by this as well, until I realized that the attitude towards females in many parts of the world is not all that dissimilar to that of the Vissians towards the cogenitors.
Another interesting question. Since cogenitors are assigned to couples maybe the Vissian government raises them? That way they could insure that the cogenitors don't learn to read or realize just how smart they are.-KAM
That would only work after the development of societies. Before then, tribal groups would have had to have been treating cogenitors this way as well. I suppose it's possible, given how we've treated women on this planet since Neandertal (at least) times.
Marc
I'm not sure where you got the 20% figure. The way I look at it is: The birth rate (estimated 2001) in the U. S. is 14.2 per 1000 population, or 1.42%. At that rate, 3% cogenitors sounds like plenty.
Also, 2000 statistics show the U. S. population is 50.9% female.
Why was this a problem for you?Luigi Novi
Because, as others have pointed out, the fact that they could fly into the corona of a star was treated in "Suspicions" as a BIG deal. If the Vissians already had similar technology, why all the oohs and ahhs?
I only saw one plot thread, that of Trip and “Charles.” I didn’t see the scenes with Reed and Valo and Archer and Drennick to be plot threads at all, though I enjoyed the Archer/Drennick scenes. I also doubt it gave the writers hemorrhages. I mean, it was written by Berman and Braga, for cryin’ out loud. What more damage could it do to them?Luigi Novi
Well, I think that I agree with you about the Archer/Drennick scenes, because I didn't see what the big overarching point of those were, but I think that they were supposed to have one, it just wasn't well-executed (big surprise, right?). The Reed/Valo scenes (and thanks for the correction, BTW) were structured to be a build-up to the question of "will they sleep together"? The problem there is, it was never resolved. So my argument is the plot threds were there, they just weren't woven together quite as well as they could have been.
Now, a lot of people have been saying things like they don't understand how Vissian society can shaft the Cogenitors the way that they do. Some quotes:
I don't think the Cogenitors position in Vission society was well thought out. Basically they are in the catbird seat. If they refused to 'play along' it would seriously affect future generations.KAM
And if cogenitors are a relative rarity, yet essential to their race, seems like they would be more highly valued.DonnaR
Here's what I got out of the whole thing- Yes, the prejudice shown against the Cogentiors as is illogical, and by our current value scheme, "wrong," but why do the Vissians have to conform to either?
Also, yes, if the Cogenitors didn't "play along," there wouldn't be reproduction for the Vissians. But, to use a somewhat crude metaphor, if plantation slaves didn't "play along," the plantation would never be successful, for the crops would never be planted or harvested or what have you. Obviously, with a few exceptions, they did play along, because they never were able to realize the power they held. Same problems for the Cogenitors.
Or, just look at it this way- the Cogenitors make up 3% of the population. That's a rather drastic minority. And human history certainly isn't full of minority groups being oppressed for no good reason at all.
I drew a comparison to CivIII earlier (really! go look! it's the first post!) but it seems more valid the more I think about it. The Vissians are far more developed when it comes to technology, but they aren't as sophisticated culturally as Humans. That's the big difference betweeen them, and it explains why they haven't clued into what they're doing is "wrong."
Did any of that make sense?
The most efficient method, is asexual, as far as I can see. (One partner, no waiting). Sexual (two genders) is also efficient-one party has the egg, the other the fertilization. Tri-sexual, however is just silly.
It's not a matter of "efficiency." Sexual reproduction always for the maintenance of greater genetic diversity in a way the asexual reproduction can't.
So now we know that the Enterprise has hit 5.1. Guess they are improving.
The transporter has a range of 2,000 km.
Does anyone else find it odd that the reading program Trip gave to the congenitor translates to english word for word?
Sparrow47: Trip tells the Cogenitor that they got the Enterprise's engines up to Warp 5.1 at one point. Did I miss something here? Last I checked, it was a Warp 5 engine, and could barely make that without getting in danger of flying apart at the seams.
I guess they made some improvements.
TUE: I thought the makeup of the aliens looked familiar. As I was watching I thought they looked like the aliens from Voyager's "Repentance". After browsing a bit, I discovered that not only is the makeup remarkably similar, but that the actor who plays the engineer in this episode (F.J. Rio) played a convict
Yeah, I noticed that too. He looked almost exactly the same.
TUE: What is with the Enterprise's selection of movies? "The Day the Earth Stood Still"?? Does Starfleet not think that there were any good movies made prior to 1950?
You mean after 1950?
PaulG: I mean downright awe inspiring to the people involved.
Awe inspiring? I don't remember them being that taken aback.
Luigi Novi: They didn’t even say that “Charles” had left the ship!
I got the impression that hir fate was supposed to be left up in the air. We were supposed to wonder whether "Charles" stayed or went until the call.
Luigi Novi: The Vissians have not been encountered by either humans or Vulcans, but no time is needed for the universal translator to establish a translation matrix for Archer and Drennik to speak with each other in the teaser.
They're 1,000 years ahead, maybe they have one. Although the whole "maybe the aliens have a UT that's more advanced" does seem to be used quite often.
Luigi Novi: And for that matter, why is the Vissian engineer the only one in his ship’s Engineering at the end of Act 1, given that his ship is much larger than the Enterprise?
More efficient design?
Luigi Novi: The Vissian Engineer and his wife refer to their cogenitor as “it,” but according to The Star Trek Encyclopedia, at the end of the entry for Soren, the J’naii character who appeared in The Outcast(TNG), the proper pronoun to use for a person of indeterminate gender is “the one,” and if the universal translator is working properly, this is the term into which the Vissian term should be translated.
Maybe the 24th century UT translates differently than its 22nd century predecessor.
Luigi Novi: The Vissian engineer tells Trip in the last scene of Act 1 that most worlds are only composed of two genders, but T’Pol tells Trip in the second scene of Act 2 that trigender reproduction is “not uncommon.”
So? T'Pol didn't say that a majority of known species have trigender reproduction. There could still be a large number of known species that have trigender while a majority of species have two sexes.
Marc Lechowicz: Yeah, I did find that an unnecessary BILC thing. It's also inefficient. Just what is the copilot doing when the controls are with the pilot?
The craft didn't appear to need a co-pilot. Archer was just a passenger.
OK, let me respond. And this will be the last I say on this.
Josh M and Luigi Nova: The fact that the alien race would have died anyway from natural causes is irrelevant. The simple fact of the matter is that Archer and Phlox agreed to help these people. They had the decision to either save them or let them die. They were totally free to make this decision and they chose death. How can they have the free choice to say who lives and who dies and then be given no moral responsibility when they make the choice? That is DIRECT responsibility, at least morally.
Hence the hypocrisy. One unintentional death is very bad but millions of intentional deaths are not. It is also a weird argument. If one death makes interference a bad thing, then what does millions of deaths make non-interference?
Luigi Nova: As for the rest of it, I fear you misinterpreted my arguments. I do believe I pointed out in my post that I had no problem with T'Pol's and Archer's positions on a "proto-Prime Directive" level. The moralizing about non-interference is fine.
My problem is that the characters themselves seem to be suffering from Reset Button-itis. T'Pol clearly was willing to be a martyr to protest a wrong and now she is totally unsympathetic to a similar situation. Archer knows first hand how it feels to be held down and certainly is no fan of slavery having just spent time in a prison camp. Again, no sympathy. If they had decided the EXACT same way but had added in that they really didn't like the situation, that would have been in character. But that didn't happen. They came across as unfeeling "these are the rules" bureaucrats who were really ticked at Trip for annoying them.
And I don't find your examples of Archer's compassion to be convincing. Archer pointed out that he MUST consider any valid asylum request and taking up to a day does not seem to be a particularly long time for consideration. It tells me nothing.
And now that I have though about this episode a bit, what really annoys me is that Trip didn't bring any of this up. He's getting reamed by two people who have personal sympathetic weaknesses that he could exploit and he suddenly gets all passive. When Archer is ranting at Trip about that death, Trip should have fired back and Archer should have been forced to answer.
That’s all I have to say.
"Because, as others have pointed out, the fact that they could fly into the corona of a star was treated in "Suspicions" as a BIG deal. If the Vissians already had similar technology, why all the oohs and ahhs?"
Maybe "Suspicions" should be considered the nit, since "I, Borg" had the Enterprise fly into a sun's corona to hide from the Borg.
This is a rather common plot in literature--a disadvantaged individual, oppressed by their society is given the gift of literacy. I though Mike Resnik did an excellent job in his "For I have touched the sky" (about Kirinyaga, a Utopia modeled after traditional Kikuyu society.)
I think the audience is expected to overlay its prejudices upon the Vissian society. Why are they treating the progenitor like a "subhuman" animal? One reason, postulated by brother, is while the Vissian male and female each contribute a genetic fraction to their offspring, the exact combinations are actually mediated by the Projenitor. Perhaps, during the act of reproduction, the projenitor uses its phenomenal learning ability to "learn" the personalities of the male and female, and meld the two into a combination for the offspring. (Octavia Butler suggested "mediation" in her Xenogenesis series, although the Oankali are of an entirely different social strata.)
Since the Progenitor realized that it (now burdened with a non-blank mind) would be unable to fulfil its reproductive role, it killed itself.
All the same, it was a decent story.
I'm not sure where you got the 20% figure.-Nove
I figured on an equal number of males and females, and came up with 40% males, 40% female, and 20% cogenitor. There are probably others that would work better, though (even 33%, 33%, 34%, which would technically put the cogenitors in the majority).
The way I look at it is: The birth rate (estimated 2001) in the U. S. is 14.2 per 1000 population, or 1.42%. At that rate, 3% cogenitors sounds like plenty.-Nove
Yeah, given that the more advanced a society is the lower their birth rate is, I can see a current low percentage of cogenitors. I still think 3 out of every hundred is still way too low, though.
Also, 2000 statistics show the U. S. population is 50.9% female.-Nove
Ah, I sit corrected, then.
The craft didn't appear to need a co-pilot. Archer was just a passenger.-JoshM
That's true. I suppose it could be a training craft designed specifically to allow the instructor to take over the helm when necessary. I still think it was done simply for BILC
Marc
I figured if the birth rate is 1.42%, then each cogenitor would have about 2 years to spend with each couple to help them get pregnant. They might even have some downtime, during which they could...vegetate, apparently (maybe they watch TV when they're not working). Of course, there are other variables I'm not accounting for. It's just an approximation.
It seems odd, considering how straightforward Valo was about sex, that she would call it "sleeping together." Or that the UT (whichever one) would translate it that way.
When Archer was ranting at Trip, he said that now a child won't be conceived for a while. This seems like a pretty minor thing compared to a person's death. I don't think Trip would lose any sleep over that part of it.
It would have been nice to see how Archer arrived at the decision not to grant asylum. I'm assuming it was because the situation that led to the request would not have occurred without Trip's interference. But I don't recall hearing his reasoning.
To me, a more effective final scene would be to focus on Trip as he walked through the ship, his face reflecting his sadness and guilt. That would help give the impression that maybe this character has undergone something that will change him and help define him from that point on (always a good thing to show in an episode).
Josh M: IIRC, in "Suspicions" the pilot that first went into the corona gave a couple of awestruck lines that would make William Shatner proud.
Rene: "Descent" is the episode where they hide from the Borg in the corona. That episode came after "Suspicions".
Nove Rockhoomer: I totally agree that I wanted to hear Archer's reasoning for denying asylum (Hey, Luigi and I agree on something!) It would have removed some of my objections. I like your Trip ending better as well but it might be even better if he had a chance to talk about it to someone not really angry at him. Let him work through his emotions and try to figure out if he did the right thing or not. Where's Guinan when you need her?
Finally, I would like to apologize if I got a little too worked up in my objections to this episode. I still feel my points are valid on the whole but I could have stated them a bit more calmly and precisely. But I did warn you. ;-)
Please, not Guinan. Don't give them ideas...
KAM: Archer invites the aliens over for dinner, but doesn't find out about their nutrutional or health requirements first?
Luigi Novi: How do we know he didn’t offscreen?
KAM: The Vissian mentioned that humans have only discovered 92 elements, which seems wrong given that 114 or 115 have been discovered. Although he could have meant naturally occuring, not made in a laboratory, but I thought it was phrased poorly if that was the intent.
Luigi Novi: He told Trip that the alloy had 200 “naturally occurring” elements. Therefore, when he referred to humans having only discovered “92,” he was referring to natural ones.
KAM: The controls of the stratopod are based on 5 spatial axes. What are the other two? Time & Space?
Luigi Novi: I’m not extremely knowledgeable about powered flight, but do the axes refer specifically to the three dimensions, rather than axes created by variable-vector thrusters or maneuvering wings/tails? (Just asking.)
KAM: I don't think the Cogenitors position in Vission society was well thought out. Basically they are in the catbird seat. If they refused to 'play along' it would seriously affect future generations. If the Cogenitors are as smart as the other two genders I would expect them to be more like high-priced call girls selling their services. Another potentially interesting angle would have been the brainwashing idea that PaulG mentioned.
Luigi Novi: But how do we know they’re not? How do we know they’re not call-girls because they were subjugated as slaves?
Hans Thielman: The Day the Earth Stood Still was directed by Robert Wise, who directed Star Trek: The Motion Picture.
Luigi Novi: I mentioned that in The Catwalk, in which that movie was scheduled for Movie Night.
Richie Vest: I think they were meant to be seperate plot lines but they just ended up filler.
Luigi Novi: True. Personally, I don’t think every single scene has to be a part of an invdividual Setup/Conflcit/Resolution-type Plot. I think the scenes with with Archer and Drennik were part of the episode’s way of setting up how the Vissians were both A. extremely advanced technologically, and B. extremely friendly and willing to share their knowledge. This was important because it made it more of a dilemma when Trip and Archer were forced to consider “Charles” request for asylum. It’s easy to grant asylum to someone fleeing a society you don’t like. It’s harder when their very cordial, and have something you really want and they’re willing to part with.
Brian Webber: Thank you Luigi! I've been saying something like that about the Romulans with Warp: Do they or don't they question all along. Frankly there are a few things from TOS that I'd LIKE TPTB to forget about and you just mentioend one of my top 3!
Luigi Novi: Except that the fact that the Romulan fleet had no warp drive during the Earth/Romulan War was explicitly stated by a credible source. The prohibition of women into starship captaincy is easier to disregard because the source—Lester—is easily dismissible.
Soul Inflicted: Maybe you were confusing my statement as meaning Trip?
Luigi Novi: Ack! Yep. Sorry.
Marc Lechowicz: I'd like to throw my support in for this episode-it's definitely one of their better ones to date. It was nice to see what Andreas Kastulas looked like without the G'Kar make-up.
Luigi Novi: You’ve never seen The Fugitive?
Marc Lechowicz: The last I heard there were twice as many women as men in the world..
Luigi Novi: Which world? Earth? Or Vissia? My understand is that the population of Earth is something like 52 or 54% female. As far as Vissia, what indication is given in the episode of the proportion of males to females?
Marc Lechowicz: You're assuming they were relying on Enterprise's UT. Given how quickly it worked by TNG, I'm not all that surprised that it would work quickly now (if they were relying on the Vissians).
Luigi Novi: What difference does it make which one they’re relying on? You need a sufficient sample of speech to form the primer by which a translation could be made. Just how much did Archer say in his opening hail that the Vissian UT could translate?
Marc Lechowicz: Did they show the whole section in any of the shots? I don't recall.
Luigi Novi: We pretty much saw all or most of Engineering in both scenes, and in the second one, when Trip peeps through the hatch, he tells Charles that the coast is clear.
Marc Lechowicz: Yeah, I did find that an unnecessary BILC thing. It's also inefficient. Just what is the copilot doing when the controls are with the pilot?
Luigi Novi: Taking his clothes off? (Maybe he’s a veteran of Southwest Airlines.)
Marc Lechowicz: In this case,it's not a nit yet, since we know Archer's been learning.
Luigi Novi: It is a nit, because if he acknowledges that he’s made mistakes, he should acknowledge that Trip can make them too, and temper his anger with that realization.
JoshM: I got the impression that hir fate was supposed to be left up in the air. We were supposed to wonder whether "Charles" stayed or went until the call.
Luigi Novi: I thought that was an absolutely poor execution of the plot. We should’ve been told that she had left, and then had a moment or two or let it sink in before finding out about her suicide, rather than finding out that she had left and committed suicide in the same scene.
JoshM: More efficient design?
Luigi Novi: Efficiency of design will not eliminate the things that can go wrong, or the need for monitoring and maintenance. Otherwise, why was that Vissian referred to as the “Chief Engineer?”
JoshM: Maybe the 24th century UT translates differently than its 22nd century predecessor.
Luigi Novi: The Encyclopedia wasn’t written in the 24th century, nor did it indicate that that pronoun referred to a 24th century custom. So the 20th century used a more evolved and sensitive pronoun than the 22nd?
JoshM: So? T'Pol didn't say that a majority of known species have trigender reproduction. There could still be a large number of known species that have trigender while a majority of species have two sexes.
Luigi Novi: Yeah, that’s true.
PaulG: Josh M and Luigi Nova:
Luigi Novi: Novi. I’m not a Chevy, and I’m not an exploding star.
PaulG: The fact that the alien race would have died anyway from natural causes is irrelevant. The simple fact of the matter is that Archer and Phlox agreed to help these people. They had the decision to either save them or let them die. They were totally free to make this decision and they chose death. How can they have the free choice to say who lives and who dies and then be given no moral responsibility when they make the choice? That is DIRECT responsibility, at least morally.
Luigi Novi: No, it isn’t. “Direct” responsibility means just that: That they caused the condition. Not that they refused to help. I didn’t say they had “no moral responsibility,” as that was the underlying dilemma of the episode. But they were not “directly” responsible for the evolutionary progress of Valakis.
PaulG: Hence the hypocrisy. One unintentional death is very bad but millions of intentional deaths are not. It is also a weird argument. If one death makes interference a bad thing, then what does millions of deaths make non-interference?
Luigi Novi: That is a total misrepresentation of the situation. First, nowhere do I recall anyone saying in Dear Doctor that the Valakians dying would “not be bad.” The moral dilemma in that episode stemmed precisely from the fact that they didn’t want the Valakians to die, but a the same time, didn’t want to make a major decision that would affect the Menk’s evolutionary progress.
Second, the situation has absolutely nothing to do with the number of people dying. T’Pol choosing to fight her own persecution from her own people is different from Trip shoehorning herself into a situation where he goads a member of another society into doing something that she didn’t think to do herself.
PaulG: My problem is that the characters themselves seem to be suffering from Reset Button-itis. T'Pol clearly was willing to be a martyr to protest a wrong and now she is totally unsympathetic to a similar situation.
Luigi Novi: Because the situation is different, and I pointed out those differences.
PaulG: Archer knows first hand how it feels to be held down and certainly is no fan of slavery having just spent time in a prison camp. Again, no sympathy. If they had decided the EXACT same way but had added in that they really didn't like the situation, that would have been in character. But that didn't happen.
Luigi Novi: I can easily presume that they didn’t like it.
PaulG: And I don't find your examples of Archer's compassion to be convincing.
Luigi Novi: Because I didn’t provide any.
The point I responded to, IIRC, was your assertion that Archer “refused to even entertain the idea” of offering her asylum, which the episode makes clear was not the case. Not examples of any “compassion.”
My problem was more that we weren’t given his reasons for his decision.
PaulG: Archer pointed out that he MUST consider any valid asylum request and taking up to a day does not seem to be a particularly long time for consideration.
Luigi Novi: Perhaps not. But it tells me that he intends to consider it, which proves wrong the notion that he “refuses to entertain the idea.” He would not have had a conference with Drennik and the Engineer and his wife if he didn’t want to entertain the idea.
I'd like to throw my support in for this episode-it's definitely one of their better ones to date. It was nice to see what Andreas Kastulas looked like without the G'Kar make-up.Marc Lechowicz
You’ve never seen The Fugitive?Luigi Novi
Or, for that matter, all those TNG episodes featuring Tomalak?
I got the impression that hir fate was supposed to be left up in the air. We were supposed to wonder whether "Charles" stayed or went until the call.Josh M
I thought that was an absolutely poor execution of the plot. We should’ve been told that she had left, and then had a moment or two or let it sink in before finding out about her suicide, rather than finding out that she had left and committed suicide in the same scene.Luigi Novi
Um... okay, so I was going to mention this earlier, but I guess now's as good a time as any. Simply put, I don't see how anyone who was paying attention to the episode couldn't have figured out that "Charles" had been returned to the Vissians long before the call came in about the suicide. Check out the sequence of events:
1) (I don't remember just what came before this but it was either an Archer log entry about having a tough decision to make, or the scene with the Vissians arguing with Archer. Anyway...) We start with Archer and T'Pol, walking to Trip's quarters to deliver the news. Archer looks rather grim here, which probably doesn't tip his hand either way. T'Pol, on the other hand, lays out a big fat hint by saying "You made the right decision." It's no secret that she was quite disdainful of Trip's actions in this circumstance; she obviously thinks Charles needs to return. Is she really likely to be consoling Archer if he had granted Charles' request?
2) Archer and T'Pol reach Trip's quarters (right?), where both Trip and "Charles" are waiting. They walk in, and the two stand up. Archer's expression deepens, and Trip also starts to look glum. No words are exchanged. This is really a dead giveaway. Trip is reading from Archer's expression that the captain has decided to return "Charles" to the Vissians. Thus, instead of expressing joy, as he probably would have had the call gone the other way, he is dejected.
3) Cut to the two ships separating from one another and the Vissian ship flying off. No information is presented here, but honestly, if Archer had ruled the other way, do you really think they'd have just up and left? It's a stretch, but I saw their rapid departure from the docking as a kind of "we're getting out of here before they change their mind" type movement. Again, it's a stretch, and I'm probably making too much of it.
4) Cut to the Enterprise bridge. Archer and Drennik have their conversation. Note the tone here. Both Captains have a "we're sorry this happened but we think we can still be friends" vibe going on. Again, had Archer ruled the other way, would things be as amicable (if that word applies) as they are here?
I'll agree that I think this episode had perhaps too much material and thus things seemed rushed or incomplete in parts, but I think this aspect of the episode worked just fine.
Oh, and as a parting shot... this board is over 100k! 
PaulG: "Descent" is the episode where they hide from the Borg in the corona. That episode came after "Suspicions".
No No No. I am referring to the end of "I, Borg", where they hide from the cube that came to pick up Hugh. That was BEFORE "Suspicions".
It is a nit, because if he acknowledges that he’s made mistakes, he should acknowledge that Trip can make them too, and temper his anger with that realization. - Luigi
Then he'd be admitting to hypocrisy, and we know from experience that people have trouble admitting to their own faults.
PaulG: "Descent" is the episode where they hide from the Borg in the corona. That episode came after "Suspicions".
Rene: No No No. I am referring to the end of "I, Borg", where they hide from the cube that came to pick up Hugh. That was BEFORE "Suspicions".
And the interesting thing is that the Enterprise hid not in the corona, but in the chromosphere, even deeper within the star's atmosphere than the corona.
Luigi: I promised not to reply on this but I believe I must clear up one point.
When I stated Archer not “entertaining the idea”, I was not referring to asylum. Archer argues the cogenitor’s death is a terrible thing. But I believe that if the Captain had considered the alternative of ignorant slavery and then compared this situation to his own life experience, he wouldn’t have had the strong opinion he expressed in this episode.
Personally, I find it arguable that the cogenitor’s suicide may have been a better outcome than if Trip had not interfered, and that’s without considering positive effects this act may have on this civilization overall. The lesser of two evils, if you will. Live free or die.
I suppose it is possible that Archer was really, really angry and just didn’t think about it. But he had several days to contemplate and the level of anger that Archer directs at Trip indicates to me that he didn’t consider it. And to me, that is not believable.
As for the rest of it, we must agree to disagree.
LN: In addition, ScottN, JoshG, Sophie, and TJ Fleming pointed on the board for that episode that energy should be measured in watts, not joules.
Actually, no. Energy is measured (in the metric system) in joules. Watts is a unit of power, which is the rate of consumption (or emission) of energy. Either could apply for an energy weapon. If a weapon were a discrete pulse (like the Romulan and Klingon ship disruptors as seen in TNG and beyond), joule seems to be proper. It would be measuring the amount of energy contained in a single pulse. However, the phasers (as seen in ENT, TOS, TNG, etc.) emit energy as a beam of variable duration. In that case, watts would measure the phaser output per unit time and joules would measure the total output (after the beam has been fired for its preset duration). For instance, if the phasers have an output of, say, 250GW, and they are fired continously at full power for three seconds, the total output would be 750GJ.
250 gigawatts! Great Scott!
Yes, I am!