I didn't know T'Pol was in the NX-Test program.
Why would the pilot feel a "bump" upon entering Warp 2?
So, I really didn't know what to expect heading into this episode. But hey, it turned out to be a nice surprise! Other than a couple of odd changed premises (at least seemingly, more on that later) this was a fairly decent episode. Let's get straight to it...
Three things I didn't like:
3) Did anyone else think the Archer/Trip relationship went back a little further than we saw her? I certainly did. What with all the training that the two went through together, I thought they'd known each other since joining Starfleet. I suppose it's just my perceptions, but I just thought this was strange. Regardless, if Trip was such a key player in getting the engine built, doesn't it seem like he and Archer would've already crossed paths? Hmmmm...
2)They keep going on and on about how this is Archer's father's engine. Wait... I thought that Archer's dad developed the Warp 5 engine, not this dinky Warp 3 thing.
1)So, the launcher used to get the NX ship into orbit really smacked of BILC. If the thing has thrusters, why didn't it use them? Or better yet, why were they storing the thing on the ground? Earth by now supposedly has a colony on the moon; don't they have anything in orbit?
Three things I did like:
3)Commodore! Woo-hoo!
2)This episode gave us a look at an earlier Starfleet, one with more of a military aspect to it, and this was really evident in the scenes where Archer was continuously standing at attention when Forrest delivered the decision, and also when Archer and Trip immediately sprang to their feet when Forrest showed up in the bar. I thought this was a nice touch- it showed us how Starfleet has evolved.
1) The grey-haired Vulcan that was acting as the "Vulcan foil" in place of Soval made for a much better Vulcan overall! I liked him...
other notes:
So... did the NX-alpha not seem like it was designed to have two people in it? Why was that? It seems like a two-person test craft makes more sense than a one-seater (one person navigates while the other tries to troubleshoot).
Why was Archer doing all the talking during the first test? I mean, first of all, the number of people they had seemed small to begin with, but what were they doing? Why didn't they get to talk to the ship? I would've like the test a lot more if it had run more like something out of the Apollo missions...
So, obviously the Vulcans knew about the second test incident... why didn't it go in the database? Does it seem likely that they'd hush it up at Starfleet's request?
Them artificial gravity systems that they have must be somethin' else, seeing as how they have them on the test models. This isn't nessecarily a nit, but for a prototype, is artificial gravity a nessecity?
When A.G. came out of warp, he was really close to Jupiter. Really, really close. I'm not going to try and do the math on the flight time versus the speed, but... Jupiter? Remember that it takes the Warp 5 engine six minutes to get to Neptune and back. Does this seem right? And remember that A.G. was in that dinky pod when he ejected... sure seems like he'd have to worry about getting caught in Jupiter's gravity, doesn't it?
I liked the story about how Trip's nickname came to be!
The time Archer and T'Pol spent flying towards the nebula (2 hours and some odd minutes) struck me as a strangely long time. The ship couldn't have dropped them closer? Did I miss something?
I also appreciated the fact that Archer and A.G. were bruised up after their fight. A plesant reminder of the strides they've yet to make in medicine.
But hey, overall, it was a good effort. They had a simple story to tell, and they told it well, with fine acting all around. Grade: A Next week... oh! I mean... next hour! On to "Bounty"!
Why was Archer doing all the talking during the first test?
They were following early NASA protocol. Archer was CAPCOM, and nobody speaks to the ship except CAPCOM.
Re Jupiter.
Jupiter is about 12 AU from Earth. 1 AU is about 8 light minutes. Warp 2 is roughly 8c (see all the discussion about warp scale on Broken Bow board). Warp 2.1 is about 9.2c. It should take between 10 to 12 minutes to reach Jupiter.
I missed this episode and probably won't be able see it. What was the origin of "Trip" for a nickname?
Highlight to see the answer.
Charles Tucker III. Third -- Triple -- Trip
---Critique:
---Not bad.
Showing Archer and Trip in the decade prior to the Enterprise’s launch, Archer’s competition with another officer for the captaincy, and getting a bit more info on the chronology of the Warp breakthroughs made for some nice material. Using Archer and T’Pol’s search for the first discovered dark matter nebula as a framing sequence was fairly reasonable, with the payoff in Act 4 resonating very nicely with the triumph of Archer and Robinson’s successful flight years prior, and T’Pol’s suggestion to name the nebula after Robinson a perfect touch. This would’ve been a perfect tribute to the crew of the Columbia, and to astronauts in general.
---I’m also glad we finally got a somewhat more imaginative-sounding title for an episode. Incidentally, First Flight was the first science fiction novel by Chris Claremont, the writer who popularized the X-Men.
---Notes:
---We learn that Vulcan scientists have confirmed the existence of dark matter, but never on the scale of an entire nebula.
---Since Unexpected established that Archer and Trip hadknown each other for eight years by the time of that episode, and we see them introducing themselves to one another in Act 2, this places the flashback sequences in 2143, or about ten years prior to this episode. We finally see the 602 Club, and Ruby, which were first mentioned by Trip and Reed in Shuttlepod One, and learn the derivation of Trip’s nickname. Archer also mentions Duvall, whom he and Trip mentioned in Silent Enemy, and Gardner, whom Ambasador Soval mentioned in the teaser of Shadows of P’Jem, as fellow trainees in the the NX-Test Program with him and A.G. Robinson. Archer tells T’Pol in the opening scene of Act 2 that Robinson was the first person to deploy an escape pod at warp. The episode establishes that the Warp 2 barrier was broken ten years before this episode, that the Warp 3 barrier was broken about eight years before this episode, and that construction on the Enterprise began a year before Broken Bow. Archer indicates in the flashback that his father had already passed away ten years ago.
---Continuity Nods:
---Archer tells T’Pol in the teaser that Vulcan scientists have excited dark matter by bombarding it with metreon particles. The Haakonians conquered Talax with a metreon cascade, as revealed in Jetrel(VOY).
---Archer has Trip use “spatial charges” to bombard the nebula, a type of munitions first seen used by the Malon in Night(VOY).
---In Act 2, Trip tells Admiral Forrest in the flashback that he’s on Captain Jefferies’ engineering team. Is this the engineer who designed Jefferies tubes?
---Terms:
metreon particles Particles with which Archer tells T’Pol in the teaser Vulcan scientists bombarded dark matter to excite it.
spatial charges Munitions Archer asks Trip to use to bombard the nebula with metreon particles.
A.G. Robinson Starfleet Captain who Admiral Forrest informs Archer in the teaser has died in an accident on Moutn McKinely. Archer tells T’Pol in Act 1 that he was in the NX-Test Program trying to break the Warp 2 barrier.
NX-Control The mission control for the Warp 2 project, as seen in Act 1.
NX-Alpha The Warp 2 test ship destroyed at the end of Act 1.
Captain Jefferies Starfleet officer on whose Engineering team Trip was stationed ten years ago, as he tells Admiral Forrest in the flashback.
NX-Beta The second Warp 2 test ship that Archer and Robinson hijack in Act 3.
NX-Delta Ship with which Archer tells T’Pol in Act 4 that Duvall broke the Warp 3 barrier.
It’s the Starfleet Protocol Manual right after geosynchronous orbit and attack position. It’s known as the “Heart-to-Heart Talk Distance”
When the shuttlepod leaves the Enterprise in Act 1, T’Pol says that they should reach the edge of the phenomenon in two hours and forty-six minutes. Why not move the Enterprise closer to it to make the trip shorter?
Maybe they’re hoping those clothes will come back in style
When Archer first tells T’Pol in Act 1 that Robinson and her were both in the NX-Test Program, the flashback to eight years ago begins with an establishing shot of Starfleet Headquarters. Amazingly, the people walking around in the shot, including the four people who meet up on the balcony on the left, are the EXACT same people in the same establishing shot of Starfleet HQ toward the end of Act 1 of Regeneration, right down to the same clothes they’re wearing, and this flashback is ten years ago!
All except for the last episode, when he kept muttering, “Resistance is Optimistic.”
In the beginning of Act 2, as the shuttlepod enters the would-be nebula, its sensors read that the particle density is increasing, and T’Pol cautions that the readings could be misleading. Archer responds by saying, “As Dr. Phlox would say: Optimism.” I can only recall Phlox saying that once, in Broken Bow. Has he been saying it all over the place offscreen or in between scenes?
By making the escape pod out of Nerf?
Archer tells T’Pol during this scene that Robinson became the first person to deploy an escape pod at warp. How does one go from deploy an escape pod to leave a ship going at warp without killing themselves?
Ah yes, Cyrus, from the Persian for “Lack of imagination”
What’s with this fixation the writers have with the name “Cyrus?” First we got an imaginary person named “Cyrus Ramsey” in Hoshi’s transporter dream in Vanishing Point, and now Trip suggest to Ruby in Act 2 the name “Cyrus” for their children because it was his great-grandfather’s name.
The sky’s the limit, but being a few feet off the ground is good enough for us
As Trip and the other officers hold back Archer and A.G. at the end of Act 2, Ruby says, “You think this is gonna get either of you any closer to Warp Five?” Huh? They’re in the Warp Two Program. And since Fortunate Son established that the fastest engine available prior to Warp Five was Warp Three, the next plateau would’ve been that. And then Warp Four. Was Warp Five seen as the highest achievable threshold ten years ago? Why would it? The Vulcans have Warp Seven, so humans know that there is a warp speed higher than Five.
And I’m detecting a lapse in T’Pol’s memory
In the beginning of Act 3, main power in the shuttlepod fluctuates. Archer mentions that Trip said that dark matter might affect the pod’s systems, and T’Pol says she’s not detecting any dark matter. Well of course not. Didn’t they establish in the teaser that it can only be detected by bombarding it with metreon particles? Aren’t firing the spatial charges the only way to bombard the nebula? Of course she’s not detecting it.
They must’ve used non-union labor
The Warp Two barrier was broken ten years before this episode. Archer tells T’Pol in Act 4 the Warp 3 barrier was broken about two years after that, and that the keel for the Enterprise was laid five years after that. That’s three years prior to this episode, which is about a year before Broken Bow. It took only a year to build the Enterprise???? The Tech Manual indicates that the Enterprise-D took eight years alone to build, and from the initial designing to its official commissioning was TWENTY. Sure, the NX-01 isn’t as big or complex as a Galaxy class ship, but still…only a year???
Something I forgot to mention: That shot of the Starfleet HQ with the same people was seen as early as the teaser for Shadows of P'Jem.
Sparrow47: Did anyone else think the Archer/Trip relationship went back a little further than we saw her? I certainly did.
Luigi Novi: Unexpected established that they knew each other for eight years by the time of that episode, or ten years prior to this one.
Sparrow47: They keep going on and on about how this is Archer's father's engine. Wait... I thought that Archer's dad developed the Warp 5 engine, not this dinky Warp 3 thing.
Luigi Novi: Geez, with all the math I did in figuring out the chronology of the Warp breakthroughs and when the Enterprise was built, I totally missed that! The dedication ceremony for the Warp Five Complex was 32 years prior to Broken Bow! How the hell, then, could they only have achieved Warp 2 and 3 just ten and eight years prior to this episode???
Sparrow47: So... did the NX-alpha not seem like it was designed to have two people in it? Why was that? It seems like a two-person test craft makes more sense than a one-seater (one person navigates while the other tries to troubleshoot).
Luigi Novi: Are you arguing that it didn’t look designed for two people, or that it was designed for two people, but only had one pilot?
Sparrow47: Them artificial gravity systems that they have must be somethin' else, seeing as how they have them on the test models. This isn't nessecarily a nit, but for a prototype, is artificial gravity a necessity?
Luigi Novi: Sure makes things easier on the pilot, especially if there’s a systems failure that may strand him somewhere.
Thanks ScottN.
by the way, you wouldn't happen to be a earlier version of ScottY? Like maybe Model N
just a little joke, no disrespect intended...
In answer to the 1st post.
I think it has something to with "length contraction, a phenomenon that is closely related to time dilation." Which basically states that when an is object measured to a reference frame that is moving, the measured length is shorter than its proper length."
(above from: Paul A. Tipler's PHYSICS for Scientists and Engineers 4th Edition.)
(Most of this material is easy to grasp coceptualwise. just ignore the math which just proves how the got from one equation to another.If you can distinguish time continuity problems in the episodes then you'll be fine.)
Now how this could possibly relate to the 1st post:
At Warp 1 (the speed of light), a object measured in a moving reference frame (if I understand it correctly) will have a length that approaches zero. The bump occurs at Warp 2 because the craft is now moving faster than the speed of light which will provide a negative length (not a length in other direction but) sort of an Anti_Length. Since this occurs in Subspace and not in real space, the anti_length is shifted back into a regular length. The bump in this case would be some type of anticompression energy field as the craft passed Warp 1 and entered Warp 2 and transfered back to a normal or regular length.
To Cabbageheads:
In reality though, The speed of light "c" has been found to have a constant velocity no matter what medium it is measured in meaning it can't have a time dilation or length contraction. To be simple, the speed of light [is the max speed limit] nothing can overtake it. So the bump was probably the craft smacking into a Energy Barrier or Field of some type and was destroyed.(sort of like an aircraft trying break the sound barrier when the plane is paper)
I thought it odd that Archer was 'capcom' for this mission. I expected Forrest to be leading it.
Tucker says, "It'll take us a little time to get the intermix right." How long does it take to figure out 1:1?
AG says, "You blame it on pliot error, gravitational anomolies or technical malfunction" What else is there to blame? Giant invisible clowns?
AG & Archer steal a spacecraft... *Ugh* So was this part of the story recycled from a college movie? Is Commodore Forrest now Dean Forrest? A line from The Simpsons came to mind here, "Now you've stepped over the line into cartoon supervillianry."
When Dean Forrest is chewing out the frat boys for their childish prank of stealing the ship he says that it is, "maybe even criminal". Maybe? Stealing a spaceship MAY BE CRIMINAL???
Luigi - When Archer first tells T’Pol in Act 1 that Robinson and her were both in the NX-Test Program
I didn't know T'Pol was in the NX-Test program.
Neither did I. Must have been that year I discovered hallucinogenic mushrooms.
I really liked this one, especially under its original title, “The Right Stuff.”
George Carlin alert: “Auxiliary APU?” That would be “Auxiliary auxiliary power unit?”
Have we heard T’Pol say “fascinating” before?
Who retrieved A.G. (or is it H.E.—•••• these people who go by initials!)? Jupiter and back in less time than it takes to grow a five o’clock shadow!
Flying the simulator with a hangover? Take a barf bag. Believe me!
The dark matter business just doesn’t ring true for me. If it makes up 90% of the universe (as currently postulated), and they can detect it, why are they surprised to find some? And wouldn’t they have long since noticed the gravitational effects of a nebula that close to earth?
Sparrow47: . . .for a prototype, is artificial gravity a nessecity?
:: My guess—once you have inertial dampers, AG is an easy step.
(same): I liked the story about how Trip's nickname came to be!
:: Yeah, a clever variation on “Trey,” which is also typically southern U.S. So, will we ever get to meet his father, Dub?
KAM: Tucker says, "It'll take us a little time to get the intermix right." How long does it take to figure out 1:1?
:: Well done, Wesley. 
(But I thought he meant to ACHIEVE the 1:1 ratio.)
And they're still calling Denali "Mt. McKinley." Just a 23rd century stick-in-the-eye for the Indiams.
Just a note prior to nitting: For once, I have to admit, this does qualify as an "Enterprise Event" (two new episodes, back to back). Next weeks (the series...oops, I mean season, finale) episode might even qualify.
In the first scene, why is T'Pol arguing so strenuously that this isn't dark matter? Time travel I can (sort of) accept. But the Vulcans have discovered the existance of dark matter, so why doesn't she at least accept that this might be dark matter? Her narrow mindedness here makes me doubt her as a scientist.
T'Pol: Commander Tucker obviously didn't remind you that Starfleet regulations prohibit the Captain from leaving the ship unaccompanied.
And why didn't he? Granted, Archer wants some alone time, but I'd expect a good Starfleet officer to at least make the attempt.
I'm not sure whether or not this is a nit. If T'Pol is familiar with Starfleet history, why hasn't she heard of Captain Robinson? Even if he didn't fly the first sucessful ship, he was still a big part of the program. Beyond that, I'd expect the Vulcan database to have a listing of all active Starfleet captains, if only for security reasons. Of course, it's never been established that T'Pol has a photographic memory, but it's still a little odd, to me.
I understand A.G.'s little "Starfleet doesn't just want a great pilot, they want a great captain" speech, but for a test flight, I'd think the brass would be more concerned about piloting skills, not captaining skills. After all, Enterprise isn't built for another five years, so there's room for Archer to grow.
T'Pol's lack of knowledge about this test flight really bugs me. For someone who was familiar with Starfleet history, she has a lot of gaps in her memory. Of course, it could be that she's just encouraging Archer to tell his story, but I find it difficult to believe she's developed that much in the way of empathy in the last two years.
Archer: That little bump you just felt was warp 2
Just a minor thing really, but since the field destabilization didn't occur until Robinson started going faster, I'd like to point out that it was Robinson, not Archer that broke the Warp 2 barrier. While Archer's responsible for making 2.5 safely, Robinson should have gotten credit for Warp 2.
And as Sparrow points out, why doesn't Robinson have a co-pilot? On the spot trouble shooting would likely have detected the problem with the intermix formula.
Which brings me to my next point: The head engineer of the project tells you that there was a problem with the intermix formula. So, you know what the problem is, but the logical thing to do is to scrub the program? Why not just fix it and try again?
By the way, why are the test pilots wearing helmets? They've got artificial gravity, so I assume there's enough room for life support in the ship's systems.
The first time they fire the charges, why isn't T'Pol at her station checking for readings of dark matter? That would seem to be standard procedure.
There's something I've never really gotten in this entire series: Just what are the Vulcans doing on Earth? They're obviously not advising, if Humans are doing all the work (you'd think the Vulcans would have noticed the intermix formula), so why are they there? It goes against their non-interference policies to be interfering with Earth's development, so why are they so influential when it comes to dictating Earth's policies?
Archer: Thanks for your help today with our...Vulcan friends, Trip. My father would have appreciated it.
What, and Jonathan doesn't? As I understand it, Archer's father is dead, so it's not like he's involved at this stage. Wouldn't a nicer thing to have said been, "I appreciated it"?
In the bar, Commodore tells Archer and Tucker 'At ease'. What this means is that while he's not having them stand at attention, he's still there on an official capacity. If he wanted to join them unofficially, he would have said, 'As you were'.
Is it just me, or did Starfleet reach it's decision to put the NX program on hold awfully fast? It's the same day, for crying out loud. You'd think they'd have taken a few days to review all the evidence before reaching a decision. Just how badly does Starfleet want this project to succeed, anyways?
One more thing, and this bugs me on pretty much every T.V. show or movie I've seen that has a bar. The character orders a beer, and the bartender brings them one. At no time does either party mention what type of beer. I seriously doubt any bar would stay in business too long if they only sold one type of beer, so doesn't it make sense that the character should ask for a specific type of beer? (Amber, Stout, etc)
Someone who knows military protocol better than I can correct me on this, but if Tucker's speaking directly to Archer about not letting Starfleet scrub the program, why does he ask Forrest for permission to speak freely. For that matter, given that they're all off duty (they'd have to be for them to be drinking-especially with a higher ranking officer) why does Tucker have to ask permission to say anything?
When Robinson comes to visit Tucker and Archer after being debriefed, they're drinking out of bottles. What're the glasses for? If they were from previous beverages, why didn't Ruby take them away when she brought the bottles (which most good waitresses, at least in my experience, would have done).
Just how far does Ruby allow barfights to go? She sits there watching for several seconds before deciding to put an end to it. I expected her to say something right away.
NNANJAO: When Ruby asks if Archer and Robinson think the bar fight is going to get either of them closer to Warp 5, my girlfriend and I simultaneously responded, "Yes!"
For a pacifist, I find T'Pol's curiousity about who'd have won the fight a little out of character.
Archer: He would have loved it out here, too bad he never got the chance
I'm confused, aside from the possible dark matter nebula, this part of space is pretty much like any other, so, why hasn't Robinson been allowed into space? Personally, I think this line should have been said later, when they finally find the nebula.
When Starfleet scrubs a mission, they clean up really fast. How come security didn't notice the three of them sneaking in and stealing the ship? At the very least I'd have expected someone to have noticed it taking off.
Forrest: Has anyone bothered to look?
No, sir, the security patrols were canceled when Starfleet scrubbed the program. We didn't think they were necessary anymore. I'm sorry, I just don't see Starfleet being this incompetent.
When security finally does show up (they were at the 602, having a generic beer, most likely), they are very heavy handed. Proper procedure usually is to order the offender to stop what he's doing, then threaten the use of force. By manhandling, they risk violating Tucker's civil liberties. Since he did nothing to threaten them, their use of force (grabbing him like they did) was excessive. Of course, their response to him shrugging them off was even worse: At this point, he's resisting arrest, they're allowed to use force now. Further, just how are they hearing what Archer is saying to Tucker? I can only assume that's why they let Tucker stand there and continue what he's been doing, but they don't have ear pieces in.
Archer: We knew we'd probably be thrown out of Starfleet.
Forrest: You may have been right.
Yeah, but we figured once we threatened to tell the world about Starfleet's 'security' problems, you'd let us go with a slap on the wrist...
Three months?!?!?!?!?! They steal the Warp 3 prototype and get grounded for three months. Yeah, ok.
I will say one thing, though, the display of the nebula was amazing. I especially loved T'Pol's reaction
Marc
••••! Did it again. 22nd century, 22nd century, 22nd century, 22nd century.
Marc: Is it just me, or did Starfleet reach it's decision to put the NX program on hold awfully fast? It's the same day, for crying out loud. You'd think they'd have taken a few days to review all the evidence before reaching a decision.
:: That's what "on hold" is--an interim measure to allow time for a final decision.
(same): Just how far does Ruby allow barfights to go? She sits there watching for several seconds before deciding to put an end to it.
:: Hockey referee?
Marc: Is it just me, or did Starfleet reach it's decision to put the NX program on hold awfully fast? It's the same day, for crying out loud. You'd think they'd have taken a few days to review all the evidence before reaching a decision.
That's what "on hold" is--an interim measure to allow time for a final decision.-TJ Fleming
Then they would have said that the program was put on hold pending an investigation. (Which would make sense) What was actually said was that the NX program was going to be put on hold indefinitely while they rebuild the engine from scratch.
Marc
I thought it odd that Archer was 'capcom' for this mission. I expected Forrest to be leading it.
IANAA (I am not an astronaut}, but my understanding is that CAPCOM is always another astronaut.
Archer: Thanks for your help today with our...Vulcan friends, Trip. My father would have appreciated it.
What, and Jonathan doesn't? As I understand it, Archer's father is dead, so it's not like he's involved at this stage. Wouldn't a nicer thing to have said been, "I appreciated it"?
I interpreted it as "I appreciated it, and my father would have, too."
So, the NX program was based in NeverNeverLand? I wonder what happened to Project Backstep? My guess is the Temporal Integrity Commission happened to it.
Also, why is Captain Quantum-Boy depicted as a two fisted, beer drinking tough guy _here_, yet such a _wuss_ in the pilot? I can't see _this_ guy getting taken hostage and slapped around by hostile aliens every other week. Still...
If you thought this ep _didn't_ completely $u(k, gimme a hell yeah!
And if you switched off "Sex Trek 2: The Rack Of T'Pol", like _I_ did, gimme another hell yeah!
Hey, I get to open with an obersvation no one's made yet, and it's pretty cool. Take a closer look at the symbol for the NX program (you can see it on the uniform sleeves in flashbacks): It contains a variation of the future Starfleet chevron, laying on its side.
More nits and notes:
-- Another chevron: In the pattern for Forrest's office door.
-- Mini-review: Boy, this just might be the most boring Enterprise yet. The story was so predictable. I correctly guessed after each act what would happen next, and I hardly even cared that I was always right. Also, the story didn't make me care for Robinson. He wasn't presented as likable or sympathetic. After last week's suspenseful Borg outing, it was hard to come down to this level of blah.
-- Why would the captain of the first NX ship be chosen from a group of test pilots? Why wouldn't Starfleet pick a captain who has actual deep-space experience -- even if it's only on a much-slower ship?
-- Speaking of slower ships, I thought Starfleet (or Earth) already had ships that could go faster than Warp 2 as of 10 or so years ago. Couldn't the Horizon and other Earth cargo ships go at least that fast? Maybe Starfleet was trying to go faster than Warp 2 with the Archer engine design.
-- T'Pol says Starfleet regulations prohibit a captain from leaving the ship unaccompanied. I could understand such a regulation only if the situation were perilous, not in general, but she didn't indicate that. Besides, she's not in Starfleet. Wouldn't the regulation stipulate the captain be accompanied by another member of Starfleet?
-- T'Pol invites Archer to join her meditating. But in the original series' "Journey to Babel," it's established that Vulcans prefer to be alone when meditating.
-- Forrest is the Starfleet commodore since the original series era -- nice touch.
-- I worry about Starfleet security. It took three people to steal and launch the NX-Beta. Then, Forrest says what they did is maybe criminal. I also worry about Earth laws.
-- Best line of the night. T'Pol says, "Fascinating."
Oops, dropped a word. What I wrote above should read thusly:
-- Forrest is the first Starfleet commodore since the original series era -- nice touch.
TJ Fleming: Who retrieved A.G? Jupiter and back in less time than it takes to grow a five o’clock shadow!
Luigi Novi: I assumed the Vulcans did.
TJ Fleming: And they're still calling Denali "Mt. McKinley." Just a 22nd century stick-in-the-eye for the Indians.
Luigi Novi: I noticed this too, TJ, but this was already established in Equinox partII(VOY).
Marc Lechowicz: If T'Pol is familiar with Starfleet history, why hasn't she heard of Captain Robinson?
Luigi Novi: She may have skimmed the chronology of events, but not paid close attention to the names of the individual pilots or engineers that much.
Marc Lechowicz: While Archer's responsible for making 2.5 safely…
Luigi Novi: Actually, they both are. Robinson got the intermix stable enough for them to do this.
Marc Lechowicz: Why are the test pilots wearing helmets? They've got artificial gravity, so I assume there's enough room for life support in the ship's systems.
Luigi Novi: Aren’t they other reasons for helmets? Pressurization when leaving Earth’s atmosphere? Having a contained environment in case of a hull breach or impromptu emergency spacewalk?
Marc Lechowicz: If Tucker's speaking directly to Archer about not letting Starfleet scrub the program, why does he ask Forrest for permission to speak freely.
Luigi Novi: He probably decided to ask the ranking officer present out of respect.
Marc Lechowicz: When Robinson comes to visit Tucker and Archer after being debriefed, they're drinking out of bottles. What're the glasses for? If they were from previous beverages, why didn't Ruby take them away when she brought the bottles (which most good waitresses, at least in my experience, would have done)?
Luigi Novi: She did when she came by for last call. She hadn’t yet presumably because she had other customers to attend to.
Marc Lechowicz: Just how far does Ruby allow barfights to go? She sits there watching for several seconds before deciding to put an end to it. I expected her to say something right away.
Luigi Novi: I would’ve expected the bar’s manager to say something, rather than one waitress.
Marc Lechowicz: I'm confused, aside from the possible dark matter nebula, this part of space is pretty much like any other, so, why hasn't Robinson been allowed into space? Personally, I think this line should have been said later, when they finally find the nebula.
Luigi Novi: I thought he was referring to the fact that Robinson didn’t get Earth’s first Warp 5 ship. The other NX-ships may presumably still being built or designed, which means Robinson is stuck on a Warp 3 ship, which can’t go as fast or as far.
TJFleming: That's what "on hold" is--an interim measure to allow time for a final decision.
Luigi Novi: Test flights should be put on hold pending the investigation into the cause of the NX-Alpha’s destruction. Not the entire program. And I agree that Starfleet’s reaction was premature. Forrest told Archer and Trip in the bar that they want to go back to the drawing board and build a new engine. That decision should be made after the investigation. Not the day of the aborted flight.
Marc Lechowicz: What, and Jonathan doesn't? As I understand it, Archer's father is dead, so it's not like he's involved at this stage. Wouldn't a nicer thing to have said been, "I appreciated it"?
ScottN: I interpreted it as "I appreciated it, and my father would have, too."
Luigi Novi: Same here.
Steven of None: Also, why is Captain Quantum-Boy depicted as a two fisted, beer drinking tough guy _here_, yet such a _wuss_ in the pilot?
Luigi Novi: Being provoked into punching a guy who just insulted your father does not mean that you’re invincible when it comes to being assaulted by mutiple attackers with weapons. When Archer was taken by the Cabal in Broken Bow, there were two of them against him. They had genetically engineered advantages. And he still managed to initially flip one of them onto the ground. Being in a barfight doesn’t mean you can’t be overpowered.
Steven of None: If you thought this ep _didn't_ completely $u(k, gimme a hell yeah!
Luigi Novi: I liked it.
Trike: Why would the captain of the first NX ship be chosen from a group of test pilots? Why wouldn't Starfleet pick a captain who has actual deep-space experience -- even if it's only on a much-slower ship?
Luigi Novi: Because much slower ships don’t have deep-space experience. So they’re going to choose officers who are both good pilots and have leadership ability
Trike: Speaking of slower ships, I thought Starfleet (or Earth) already had ships that could go faster than Warp 2 as of 10 or so years ago.
Luigi Novi: Shouldn’t they have had it 32 years ago, since that’s when they dedicated the Warp Five Complex?
Trike: Wouldn't the regulation stipulate the captain be accompanied by another member of Starfleet?
Luigi Novi: Normally, but obviously, her position on the ship is an unusual one, and she is, for all practical intents and purposes, a member of the crew, which is just as good enough.
Okay, I've only got a few things at this point. I know I need to make some longer responses, but I'm right in the middle of packing so I can move my collegate behind back to Albuquerque (the collegate rest of me is accompaning my behind, so I guess that's good).
I'd like to offer up an acronym: DAMN: D'oh! Another Missed Nit. As in: DAMN! TJ Felming got my "Denali" nit before I did!
More later.
Sparrow, don't miss that left turn at Albuquerque!
-- T'Pol invites Archer to join her meditating. But in the original series' "Journey to Babel," it's established that Vulcans prefer to be alone when meditating. -Trike
I think she was trying to help Archer deal with the death of his friend, either through actually helping him meditate, or drawing him into a conversation.
Marc
Also, in Voyager, Tuvok meditated with Suder in order to help break him from his violent outbursts.
This may be impossible to do given the number of them, but is there a list of all acronyms and their meanings?
I am fairly new to all this and when I look back at earlier forums (of TNG, VOY, DS9, TOS, and ENT), I am finding many opinions and hidden jokes which are beyond my ability to decipher. I can get some like "The Powers That BE" but most of the long ones I am just clueless about.
Look in Playing to the Glossaries.
Also, the "official" NitCentral Glossary, and Secondary Glossary.
See also Pending Glossary Entries.
Oh, and "Ten foot tall giant ape things" is a meme that ran through here a few months ago... It's a reference to the inhabitants of Taurus II from The Galileo Seven(TOS).
The dedication ceremony for the Warp Five Complex was 32 years prior to Broken Bow! How the hell, then, could they only have achieved Warp 2 and 3 just ten and eight years prior to this episode??? - Luigi Novi
I think that it's implied that Warp 5 is the minimum speed necessary for any human starship to do deep space exploration. Perhaps Starfleet calculated this, or perhaps the Vulcans set this as a requirement. During the flashbacks Archer and Ruby make mention of Warp 5, lending support to the idea that Warp 5 is the ultimate goal of the deep space program. If so, dedicating the facility as the Warp 5 Complex is a nod toward that goal.
One more thing, and this bugs me on pretty much every T.V. show or movie I've seen that has a bar. The character orders a beer, and the bartender brings them one. At no time does either party mention what type of beer. I seriously doubt any bar would stay in business too long if they only sold one type of beer, so doesn't it make sense that the character should ask for a specific type of beer? (Amber, Stout, etc) - Marc L.
Order a Duff, Homer!
I thought it odd that Archer was 'capcom' for this mission. I expected Forrest to be leading it. - KAM
As ScottN pointed out, NASA uses astronauts to communicate with manned spacecraft. Specifically, they use members of the backup crew for the same mission. This is due partially to the astronauts' familiarity with the mission details and the sequence of tasks that must be accomplished, and partially because some of the most brilliant engineers have no ability to explain anything to anyone. Engineers focus on monitoring data and solving problems rather than dialogue with the flight crew.
Obi-Juan: I think that it's implied that Warp 5 is the minimum speed necessary for any human starship to do deep space exploration. Perhaps Starfleet calculated this, or perhaps the Vulcans set this as a requirement. During the flashbacks Archer and Ruby make mention of Warp 5, lending support to the idea that Warp 5 is the ultimate goal of the deep space program.
Luigi Novi: Why?
Why would anyone think of Warp 5 as an “ultimate goal” when they know that there is Warp 6 and Warp 7?
Moreover, that doesn’t jibe with the fact that the normal cruising speed for the Enterprise is Warp Four, and gets around pretty well.
And I don’t buy that about the Vulcans. What do they know about deep space exploration? Fight or Flight, Breaking the Ice and numerous other episodes indicated that the Vulcans aren’t much on exploring.
Thanks, ScottN & Obi-Juan.
NANJAO: The name Robinson has appeared as the names of the families in the Gold Key comic book Space Family Robinson, & the later TV show/movie Lost In Space. (Both of which claim inspiration from Swiss Family Robinson.)
TJFleming: That's what "on hold" is--an interim measure to allow time for a final decision.
Marc: Then they would have said that the program was put on hold pending an investigation. (Which would make sense) What was actually said was that the NX program was going to be put on hold indefinitely while they rebuild the engine from scratch.
:: Sorry, Marc–I didn’t have that dialog and your earlier post didn’t cite it. But read on . . .
Luigi Novi: Test flights should be put on hold pending the investigation into the cause of the NX-Alpha’s destruction. Not the entire program. And I agree that Starfleet’s reaction was premature. Forrest told Archer and Trip in the bar that they want to go back to the drawing board and build a new engine. That decision should be made after the investigation. Not the day of the aborted flight.
My turn: But the engine is the linchpin of the program, and it’s now suspect. So SF has two costly alternatives: (1) keep pouring money in, even though it may be a dead end; or (2) scrap the current program and incur the duplicative expense of starting from scratch. Unfortunately, either course of action could land them in front of a Congressional oversight committee. But there’s a third, no-cost course of action: stop everything until it’s sorted out. Now, I don’t know it this is what was said because your version differs from Marc’s. (Going to rebuild is a decision; wanting to rebuild is not). But absent exigent circumstances such as a war, the “on hold” decision is the correct one precisely because it is indecisive (revocable).
Luigi (quoting TJFleming): And they're still calling Denali "Mt. McKinley." Just a 22nd century stick-in-the-eye for the Indians.
:: Thanks for retyping me out of the 23rd century (second time I’ve been there recently). But, dammit, I said INDIAMS and I meant INDIAMS (a portmanteau word of my own device, from INDIgenous AMericans).
Note to Sparrow47: You can spell Albuquerque and you can’t spell Fleming? Throwing a Luigi Novk fit here!
Note to 2-Cents Worth: A little-known abbreviation not found in the glossaries: TNG=The Nose Generation. (From the empirical observation that Data, Picard, Crusher, and Troi could staff a “Honkers” restaurant.)
Note to Sparrow47: You can spell Albuquerque and you can’t spell Fleming? Throwing a Luigi Novk fit here!
D'oh!
Obi-Juan: I think that it's implied that Warp 5 is the minimum speed necessary for any human starship to do deep space exploration. Perhaps Starfleet calculated this, or perhaps the Vulcans set this as a requirement. During the flashbacks Archer and Ruby make mention of Warp 5, lending support to the idea that Warp 5 is the ultimate goal of the deep space program.
Luigi Novi: Why? Why would anyone think of Warp 5 as an “ultimate goal” when they know that there is Warp 6 and Warp 7? Moreover, that doesn’t jibe with the fact that the normal cruising speed for the Enterprise is Warp Four, and gets around pretty well.
Why? Excellent question. With the limited info available to us, there is no way to be sure. If the NX-01 cruises around at Warp 4, why didn't they install a Warp 4 engine? There must be some relevance to Warp 5, as the development staff for the Warp 3 engine refers to Warp 5. I choose to believe that Starfleet set Warp 5 as their target engineering feat prior to launching their first deep space exploration vessel. It may very well be a nit in the script. I do enjoy thinking up plausible explanations for these nits, though!
And I don’t buy that about the Vulcans. What do they know about deep space exploration? Fight or Flight, Breaking the Ice and numerous other episodes indicated that the Vulcans aren’t much on exploring. - Luigi Novi
First Contact establishes that the Vulcans are quite interested in exploration. They're just more methodical and cautious than humans. I assume they know something about deep space exploration, as their fabled "Vulcan Database" proves. They have info on at least 50% of the races Enterprise has encountered to date. Either they bought it from a more spacefaring culture, or they're exploring deep space.
For a given cruise speed you usually need a higher maximum velocity (warp 4 with the warp 5 engine).
Point taken, Juan. Just one thing, though:
the development staff for the Warp 3 engine refers to Warp 5.
Luigi Novi: Where was this? We didn't even see any Warp 3 project; Archer simply told T'Pol about Duvall breaking that barrier in Act 4 after relating the events of his and Robinson's Warp 2 flight.
You are correct, Luigi. I saw this ep again today, and they only made a reference to Warp 3 once, in passing.
I do wonder what happened to the Vulcans since First Contact, after detecting Cochrane's first flight they come straight to Montana to make contact. By Archer's flight they make it policy to take a week to scan a planet with probes before they make orbit.
Electron, you are also correct, to cruise means you are under your top speed. Unless you have one massively efficient engine.
A nit I did pick up, though. During the theft of the test craft, Lt. Tucker reached into a circuit-breaker panel and reported that he had disabled the tracking sensors. This would give Archer and Robinson about 6 minutes of flight time before the New Berlin tracking station pinpointed their location. I assume that the test flights launched from San Francisco. If New Berlin is in Germany, that would mean that Tucker disabled all the tracking sensors on the entire North American continent, and likely Central America as well. If, as I suspect, New Berlin is a city on the Moon, Tucker disabled all the tracking sensors on the Earth. That must be one serious circuit-breaker box!!
I think the whole deal of Warp 5 being the necessary speed of deep space exploration and not warp 6 or 7 is a throw-"ahead?" to "The Next Generation" episode "Force of Nature" where they imposed a speed limit of Warp 5 unless a dire emergency popped up.
(Which was about every episode of DS9 and Voyager...)
Also
I think the Vulcans know of this problem with warp speed and are hoping that the humans hurt their own planet...
Obi Juan: By Archer's flight they make it policy to take a week to scan a planet with probes before they make orbit.
Luigi Novi: ??? Where in the episode was this?
Obi Juan: If New Berlin is in Germany… If, as I suspect, New Berlin is a city on the Moon
Luigi Novi: It is indeed a lunar colony, according to ST First Contact.
I don't think Travis even appeared in this episode.
Obi Juan: By Archer's flight they make it policy to take a week to scan a planet with probes before they make orbit.
Luigi Novi: ??? Where in the episode was this?
I believe he's referring to dialogue in Strange New World. IIRC Archer wants to go down to the planet immediately & T'Pol recommends a week of study first.
Are you arguing that it didn’t look designed for two people, or that it was designed for two people, but only had one pilot?Luigi Novi
The NX-Alpha looked like it was designed for one person, the Beta for two. I was wondering if this necessarily made sense.
The part about the ship starting to jolt when it entered warp 2 reminded me of the Quantum Leap
pilot where Sam tells Al about how he smelled
something like coffee just prior to the plane
starting to come apart.
Sparrow, in what way did the NX-Alpha look like it was designed for one person? It had two seats in the cockpit, just like the Beta.
The Vulcans probably would have known about Cochrane's public statements about the Borg, and wouldn't they have noticed the Enterprise in orbit? Etc.
To KEN
Picard or Riker? said that they used something about the moon to mask their warp trail.
...although if the vulcans happen to look out the window like libby does in the end of the movie then "oops"
Worf said they used the moon's gravitational field to mask their warp signature.
I guess I don't qualify as a true trekkie.
...
...
...
Is that a good or bad thing?
To me, a Trekkie is anyone who likes watching it. But whether you think that's good or bad is up to you, 2Cents.
I consider myself having a personality type of "philosophical literalist"
I like watching things that can be explained with any logic so long as it is consistant.
Which sad to say hasn't been happening like it used to...
(sniff, sniff)
I know!, I'll watch some voyager episodes, that'll make me appreciate the consistency of "enterprise"
Your spelling of "consistant" is inconsistent with your spelling of "consistency."
Just thought you'd appreciate the irony.
D@mn it Jim!
I'm a philosopher!
Not a Dictionary!
well actually I'm majoring in aerospace engineering.
...and isn't "editer" spelled "editor"
You forgot to put a question mark at the end of your last sentence.
well actually I'm majoring in aerospace engineering.
-I also needed to capitalize the word "well."
...and isn't "editer" spelled "editor"
Also, the string of words above is not a sentence.
Actually, it is a sentence. It may not conform entirely to grammar rules, but it still has a subject and a predicate (the two components of a sentence).
Your spelling of "consistant" is inconsistent with your spelling of "consistency."
Just thought you'd appreciate the irony.-Mr. Editer
Kinda like the irony of you spelling 'Editor' with an extra 'e'? (sorry, couldn't resist. No offense meant to you )
Marc
That third string of words in 2-cents Worth's post didn't have a period, unless the fourth string of words is a continuation, in which case the "And" shouldn't be capitalized. And the Username box doesn't seem to take apostrophes which I put in.
Getting back to the subject at hand, isn't the usual speed of the ship in "The Cage" still warp 7? Progress in warp speeds seems to be inconsistent, in fits and starts. Well, maybe it's not such nit, but I felt like mentioning it.
I'm willing to accept that Andorians know about pon far and even that Phlox knows about it, if the Temporal Cold War is the reason T'Pol is on the ship and the reason Andorians found out about pon far. But I'd like to see a fuller explanation.
They should even find a way to explain "pon far night" in that one Voyager episode.
Here's a neat analogy to those who are questioning the anti-matter to matter ratios that Star Trek keeps using...The so-called "how hard is it to get a ratio of 1:1?"
Look around the room you are sitting in and then imagine you have a superball that never stops bouncing off walls. Throw that ball at a wall. That is your anti-matter ball. Now throw another superball in the room. That will be your matter ball. Eventually the 2 balls will meet and annihilate each other. But given the size of the room and the smallness of the balls that might take a while. In order to get a better chance of hitting the anti-matter ball in a convenient amount of time you might want to throw in 10 matter balls. For a 10:1 ratio.
That would also mean that if you had 100 anti-matter balls to annihilate you would need a 1000 matter balls. I don't think people appreciate how hard it is to get point-like particles to interact with each other through the vastness of space...
I didn't have a problem with that line, because I didn't understand it to mean that they were trying to figure out the right ratio, but rather than they were trying to get it to the right one. They knew it, they were just having trouble getting the equipment to stay at it.
Marc: Kinda like the irony of you spelling 'Editor' with an extra 'e'? (sorry, couldn't resist. No offense meant to you )
None taken, Marc, because the irony is intentional.
Bill Nye: In order to get a better chance of hitting the anti-matter ball in a convenient amount of time you might want to throw in 10 matter balls. For a 10:1 ratio.
:: Hey, are you the science guy?
OK, The point is not to hit the antimatter ball, but to bring matter and antimatter together. So at 10:1 matter, you would increase the odds by adding antimatter until you reach the optimum chance of annihilative collisions with a 1:1 ratio. I think. Probability gives me a headache.
Heh..
TJFleming:
OK, The point is not to hit the antimatter ball, but to bring matter and antimatter together.
I think hitting and bringing them together would be the same thing.
One more thing I should point out is that this is a PROCESS.. If you have 100 anti-matter particles and you add in 10,000 matter particles you would annihilate those anti-matter particles in no time.
With a lot of wasted energy and then the process stops. What you want to do is to hit the anti-matter particles at a steady enough rate to get just the right amount of energy from them in a given time period.
My point, though, is that there is no way to aim point-like particles at each other and say they will always hit. They really move randomly and the best you can do is to try to hit them with overwhelming numbers.
TJFleming:
OK, The point is not to hit the antimatter ball, but to bring matter and antimatter together.
Bill Nye: I think hitting and bringing them together would be the same thing.
:: (Sorry to be so late on this.) What I'm saying is that your model of many bullets/one target (hit the ball) is less efficient than my model of many bullets/many targets (bring together).
Simplifying assumption: 10 particles in the reaction chamber. That's 55 possible distinct collisions. If only one particle is antimatter (or only one is matter, because that doesn't "matter"), only 9 possible collisions will produce energy. But if 5 particles are antimatter and 5 are matter, 25 possible collisions will be productive--the optimal result.
One other thing: Even under your model of many bullets/one target, as soon as a matter ball collides with the antimatter ball, you would replace both. One new matter ball and one new antimatter ball is a flow rate of, what?, 1:1?