So... I believe this is the very first Enterprise episode to feature... brothel.

I dunno... The episode was interesting at the beggining, but after that it only got worse...

What I meant was that Enterprise now comes on at midnight

Archer doesn't seem to know much about being tactful and making a good impression on merchants.

This episode has another abundance of alien-looking aliens in this episode. In TOS, the oddity was the aliens looked human but we accepted it. Since this series is supposed to be pre-TOS, and take place closer to Sol, shouldn't we expect more human-looking aliens?

It might have been interesting to suggest that in one section of the galaxy, most races look human; in another part, most races look Vulcan; in another part, most look Tellarite or Bolian or whatever.

Here's another missed opportunity to at least mention Orions. One of the slave women is a "Nubian". Nubia is in Africa, and none of the women looked African.

Apparently, only women who look exactly like humans are allowed to be seductive toward the main characters. She couldn't even have green hair.

The (male, of course) announcer for the previews says she has powers no crewmember can resist. So the female crewmembers can't resist her either? Will we see anything the least bit lesbian in this episode? I don't think so.

In the Xindi scenes, they should have had the subtitles projected from within the water tank so the other Xindi are reading the same subtitles we are. And the insectoid Xindi should have a projector in front of him which shows a translation as well. Of course, what we see as English, the other Xindi see as some other language.

There should be a monitor inside the water tank for the aquatic Xindi to read the translations of what the other Xindi are saying.

Have we gotten any indication of why the Xindi thought it would be a good idea to attack Florida?
And only that one region of our planet?

Why can't Trip and T'Pol do that massage stuff in Sickbay so nobody gets suspicious? Can't T'Pol teach it to Phlox? Is it realistic that Phlox wouldn't have any medical assistants?

I was so annoyed, I couldn't wait to nitpick. So I missed some of the episode.
About the ending: We can tell they're villains because they're not respectful of women and their opinions. And it never occurred to the humans she might be bait?
The Xindi seem to be all male--of course, males always have male voices, females have female voices.
The Xindi don't seem concerned about getting data on Vulcans, Denobulans or any other races. Don't they want to destroy anybody else's homeworld? And even if they did, there'd be plenty of survivors living in space or on other planets.
Did they or the Trek producers think of that?

This episode was... okay. I liked how it picked up some of the previous threads that had been floating around, advancing the Trellium D plot, for example, or showing Archer to still be healing after the previous episode. However the main drive of the plot, the Rajin story, struck me as a great big ball o' "meh." So let's get to it.

Three things I liked:
3) The chemist. If nothing else, the Xindi plot is giving us a good smattering of interesting supporting characters- this guy, the head miner of "The Xindi." It's a small, but good, thing.
2) Man, those Xindi-Reptiles were some bad mothers. Yay!
1) Phlox continues to rock everything in sight. He really came close to stealing this episode for me in one line. That's acting, folks. Bakula, you might want to pay attention. The final scene in sickbay, when Phlox was detailing how the Xindi died, he points out the suicide gland. Archer asks if it was a surgical enhancement, and Phlox snarls, "If you can call it an enhancement." He delivered that line just perfectly! It was a fabulous moment.

Three things I didn't like:
3) Boy, Nikita Ager can't act her way out of a paper bag.
2) When Archer asked T'Pol if she was all right in that last sickbay scene, he managed to deliver the line without a single shred of sympathy. Yes, we know he's angry. We get it. Ugh.
1) Archer, before he leaves the brig, tells the gaurd to get a security detachment down there. When the Xindi show up, there's a total of three people gaurding the brig. Two people is a detachment?

Other notes:

I liked how they used spice to barter with the chemist. I mean, who would think to use spices? Nice touch.

They, uh, never explained how Rajin got into T'Pol's quarters.

Oh, and speaking of Rajin, where did she get the clothes that she wore for most of the ep?

Linda Park did a good job of conveying her "seduction" in her scene with Rajin. It was a very subtle performance. As opposed to some of the other bits on the show. Oy.

I think the fadeout after Rajin thanked Archer for letting her come aboard was the first such fade of the season. Glad things aren't so intense anymore.

Final Grade: B (would be a B-, but Phlox saves the day again!) Next week: T'Pol goes all sorts of wacky! That's fun for the whole family!

"Rajiin" hid its cards well before laying everything out with an exciting, shoot-'em-up finish. Did that make it entertaining? Not exactly. The first half was dull and dragged, seemingly without direction. Coming off last week's terrible "Extinction," I wasn't surprised to see another lackluster story. If last week's Enterprise had been as good as say, "Anomoly," I might not have been squirming in my seat for so long. Rajiin didn't help things. As a character, she reminded me vaguely of exotic women from episodes of the original series that never did interest me very much. After the much-too-long setup, though, we were left with an interesting ending and some intriguing questions; most importantly, will Rajiin supply the Xindi with fully accurate information on humans, or will she deceive them, too?

Nits and notes:

-- Warm up the tribunal; Archer needs to be court-martialed. I cannot think of a better candidate than Archer bringing aboard Rajiin for his worst command decision of all time. Archer, who was on a military mission, brought aboard a passenger to ferry her home. The idea of bringing her aboard as an errand of mercy doesn't hold up because of all the other slave-women he left on the surface. Archer had no idea of Rajiin's background or motives. In that respect, he got what he deserved.

Even worse, he physically assaulted a man who had a rightful claim to Rajiin. He basically stole her. Archer knew his people would be returning to the surface. Didn't he think there would have been repercussions? (There weren't, which should have been a sign something was amiss.)

Next, Rajiin said she knew "very little" about the Xindi. "The two I saw were reptilian." If she knew so little about them, how did she know there was more than one species? Another red flag that Archer missed.

Finally, Enterprise was under attack and Archer wasn't on the bridge, nor was he hurrying there.

Archer's decisions led to his ship being attacked and boarded, with injuries to some of the people under his command. Honestly, I don't think Archer is this dumb, but the producers sure made him seem it.

Moving on ...

-- In sick bay, Archer said to Rajiin, "I'm afraid I don't know your name." That means it didn't come up during the entire shuttle ride back to the ship, including when Trip would have seen Rajiin for the first time.

-- Where were Archer and Rajiin eating? Why weren't they in the mess hall or captain's mess?

-- The new brig sure is getting a lot of use. I just hope there are spare doors on board.

-- Once again, the special-effects people deserve kudos. The shots of Rajiin scanning the crew were well done.

-- "Security detail" equals two people. Got it.

-- During the fight with the Xindi, several people suffered injuries, but none were in sick bay afterward.

-- The vortex is an intriguing concept. Did the Xindi use it when they went to Earth in "Expanse"?

OK, so Archer wants to know some informations about reptillian Xindi from the courtesans because?...

I mean, he posseses now almost complete Xindi database, which gimes him enormous tactical advantage. It's even mentioned in the episode, and yet it remains useless. I guess it was placed next to the Suliban Pod, for "safekeeping".

"You should learn to objectify other cultures
so you know when to interfere and when not to."
Remember those words from Broken Bow? As Trike mentioned, Archer deserves court-martial for his actions and inactions.

Speaking of court-martial candidates, what were Reed and Mayweather thinking? Reed didn't even try to use torpedoes, and Mayweather allowed Xindi ship to dock to the Enterprise for no apparent reason. What, did Xindi turned on siren and told them to pull off from the road, or something?

And how Archer knew to jam Raijin communications? How Xindi knew where Raijin is being kept?

Sigh... so many questions, so few answers...

I found some scenes from the way they were shot & used music to be reminiscent of Classic Trek. Maybe the creators are learning?

The scientist makes a comment about how hard it is to build a weapon that can destroy a planet.
Hmmm, take one spaceship, aim it at Earth, go to Warp One, there will be a tremendous explosion when it hits Earth. If a comet traveling much slower than Warp can supposedly wipe out a large number a species (Cretaceous Period) then a kamakaze spaceship at Warp can do a hell of a lot more damage.

Trip comments about the rumors of him & T'Pol & T'Pol asks how he feels about it & he says that it shouldn't bother him.
Yeah.... don't let it bother you. It's just her reputation on the line.

So there is a Trellium A as well as D. Presumably there is a B & a C as well. Yeah, it's probably the just Universal Translater sticking English letters in for the alien alphabet, but the mention of Trellium A just annoyed me.

DEWP? Trellium D can only be synthesized as a liquid? Excuse me, but isn't liquid a phase of matter? You cool a liquid down it becomes a solid, you heat a liquid up it becomes a gas. Maybe if the dealer had said that the synthesized Trellium D has a lower melting point so that it's a liquid at room temperature it would have been more accurate.

When Rajin's hands started glowing around Archer's head I thought she might be of the same race as the character in DS9's The Muse.

T'Pol made a poor showing during the synthesization scene. She sounded emotional & her comment at the calculations being off made me wonder about her Vulcan math skills.

The Xindi are storming the ship & I'm thinking, 'Shouldn't there be emergency bulkheads slamming down?'

The vortex is an intriguing concept. Did the Xindi use it when they went to Earth in "Expanse"?Trike

Yup, they sure did.

The Xindi are storming the ship & I'm thinking, 'Shouldn't there be emergency bulkheads slamming down?'KAM

Well, I don't think we've ever seen that before in Trek, so I'm not going to fault this show for not having it. That would be a good idea, though.

I missed part of the middle due to a rare non-telemarketing phone call. (Unfortunately, it was the "naughty bits" part.)

I thought the scene of Malcolm and his crew definding the ship was nicely done, with very little dialogue. So, do the MACO's only handle external invaders (the Xindi), while Malcolm's crew takes care of the internal intruders (Raijin)?

Is every episode from now on going to open with a Trip/T'Pol scene in her quarters?

It seems odd to me that the transporter is sitting in a hallway. I mean the access tube that Reed later thought Rajiin might have gone up has it's own room.

I'm sure if you want to make photocopies on Enterprise you need to punch in a personal code, but any person can wander by and use the transporter? Shouldn't you need a key or some access code to be able to beam things on or off the ship? Well I guess it's not really a nit, since unauthorized use of the transporters and the shuttles are standard Trek plot devices. Maybe I should just be happy that this seems to be an area of continuity with other shows.

Has it ever been established if you can use the transporter while the hull is polarized?

I liked that Reed used a gernade type devide, ideal for cramped hallways and many boarders, but he should have thrown it a bit further, it doesn't make it to the hallway the Xindi ducked into, it just stays in the one Reed is in.

Oh, and speaking of Rajin, where did she get the clothes that she wore for most of the ep? - Sparrow47

First off, the ship has a quartermaster (Civilization). Second, why couldn't Archer have simply purchased something for her to wear in the alien marketplace before they left?


The idea of bringing her aboard as an errand of mercy doesn't hold up because of all the other slave-women he left on the surface. - Trike

The other slaves didn't ask for his protection, she did. Granting asylum is certainly well within his rights as Captain.


Even worse, he physically assaulted a man who had a rightful claim to Rajiin. - Trike

As far as he was concerned, that claim ended the moment Rajiin decided to escape from the alien and asked Archer for his protection.


If she knew so little about them, how did she know there was more than one species? - Trike

Well, Archer knows "very little" about the Xindi, too, but is aware of it being comprised of five different species (even when he had only met one of them - the humanoid in The Xindi. Why should Rajiin having the same knowledge raise a "red flag"?


Where were Archer and Rajiin eating? Why weren't they in the mess hall or captain's mess? - Trike

That was the Captain's Mess.


"Security detail" equals two people. Got it. - Trike

Perhaps the others got detained en route... the ship was being invaded, after all.


I mean, he posseses now almost complete Xindi database, which gimes him enormous tactical advantage. It's even mentioned in the episode, and yet it remains useless. - Kazeite

I don't think it has ever been mentioned that he holds an "almost complete" Xindi database. Sure, he has a database that they're still trying to translate, which takes time. But I doubt the database contains any and all the information he's looking for. Furthermore, he's looking, specifically, for information on the Xindi weapon, which I doubt is just lying about an every Xindi vessel he salvages. So he's tracking down all possible sources of information, including people (and courtesans) who may have had contact with them.


I guess it was placed next to the Suliban Pod, for "safekeeping". - Kazeite

Perhaps the Suliban pod is on Earth now.


"You should learn to objectify other cultures
so you know when to interfere and when not to."
Remember those words from Broken Bow? As Trike mentioned, Archer deserves court-martial for his actions and inactions. - Kazeite

Archer didn't interfere until Rajiin approached him and asked for help. This is, again, well within his purview and rights as a Strfleet captain (at least the regulations we're familiar with 100+ years later, which may not even apply in this era).


Reed didn't even try to use torpedoes, and Mayweather allowed Xindi ship to dock to the Enterprise for no apparent reason. - Kazeite

Reed didn't try to use torpedoes that we know of. Things can happen off-screen (like while Archer was interrogating Rajiin -- which I agree that he should have been on the Bridge at this point). And who's to say Mayweather didn't try to maneuver the ship to avoid the Reptilians, but couldn't because of damage from the initial volley. And perhaps the Xindi ships were too close to Enterprise to warrant use of torpedoes.


And how Archer knew to jam Raijin communications? - Kazeite

By this point, the crew was well-aware of Rajiin's duplicity. Jamming all transmissions coming from the ship is a perfectly sound, justified, and smart thing to do.


How Xindi knew where Raijin is being kept? - Kazeite

Perhaps she had a homing device implanted in her. Or perhaps they just used their ship's bio-scanner's to pinpoint her location (much like Hoshi knew T'Pol was in her quarters when Trip asked).


If a comet traveling much slower than Warp can supposedly wipe out a large number a species (Cretaceous Period) then a kamakaze spaceship at Warp can do a hell of a lot more damage. - KAM

Except a starship at warp doesn't exist in real space, and thus isn't moving that fast at all.


It's just her reputation on the line. - KAM

Concern over one's reputation is an emotion, and not necessarily a logical one, as long as she can continue to do her job.

Why would the brig be made of glass or some other kind of breakable substance?

QUOTE OF THE WEEK:
"I'd really like to hear your language."
"Yeah, phrases like 'Oh baby!' and 'Yeah that's the spot!'"
-- Hoshi and my roommate.

WELCOME SURPRISE OF THE WEEK:
This episode was better than I expected. UPN has the worst previews I have ever seen in my life. I'd point out that they did something similar with the preview for "Cogenitor" but you all already know that.

GOOD IDEA WITH BAD EXECUTION OF THE WEEK:
The idea of a Xindi spy coming on board the Enterprise for information is a great idea. Having it be a sexy woman who might be able to use her feminine charms to gain sympathy was also a pretty decent idea. Having Archer duke it out with the alien pimp in order to rescue her seemed pretty lame. And how could the Xindi know that Rajiin would be the one to "catch his eye." Could they be so certain that Archer wouldn't have said, "Get away from me you STD funbag!" when she asked him to save her? In fact, given that the Xindi think that humans are pretty bad people, why would their plan rely on Archer's compassion?

PROMISCUOUS COMM OFFICER OF THE WEEK:
That Hoshi is something else. She's becoming one of my favorite characters. She's just open minded about everything. It's true that Rajiin seems to have some mental abilities to draw in just about everyone, but while Archer and T'Pol put up some resistance, Hoshi seemed rather willing. I don't find anything wrong with this. Hoshi got some action in "Two Days and Two Nights" with a guy. If she wants to have some relations with a lady that's okay by me. If her door swings both ways I certainly won't stop it.

COGENITOR DIFFERENCE OF THE WEEK:
Some argue that Archer telling Trip not to push his values on other cultures contradicts what he does in this episode. I disagree. In "Cogenitor", we were dealing with an entire culture. Interfering with the cogenitor could have had lasting repercussions on the entire race. In this episode, Rajiin is just one prostitute out of a group that consists of many species. "Rescuing" her does not do anything other than make the alien pimp mad.

CHEAP CAPTAIN OF THE WEEK:
One does wonder why Archer just didn't buy Rajiin if she insisted on going with him. Surely that would be the better thing to do rather than steal her from someone (judging the alien pimp to be a degenerate just because of his own attitudes does contradict "Cogenitor") who has a rightful claim to her.

CONTINUITY OF THE WEEK:
I was rather surprised to see Archer suffering problems from his experience in "Extinction". That's good to see. It was also great to see the Xindi Council again. I love that Xindi-Insectoid. We finally got to see him in action.

QUALITY WEAPON OF THE WEEK:
That goop weapon that plastered itself to the wall and then shot out a hundred little things that killed the crewmembers was VERY cool. I want one.

COOL SHIPS OF THE WEEK:
I like the Xindi ships. Sort of organic looking.

FORGOTTEN TECHNOLOGY OF THE WEEK:
It is shown in this episode that the Xindi possess some sort of vortex technology. This seems like a very good tactical advantage. Why didn't the Xindi ship in "Anamoly" that the Osaarians attacked use it to escape? Perhaps the Xindi-Reptilians do not share that stuff with the Xindi-Sloths. That would be interesting.

OVERALL OPINION OF THE WEEK:
Sorry if all of this post seems jumbled. I'm in a bit of a hurry.
There was a lot of cool stuff, but the rather lackluster story involving Rajiin (I think revealing the Xindi's plan to gather information at the very beginning was a mistake) was fairly predictable. I liked the continuity though and the stuff we learned about the Xindi.
Bonus Points for the Episode:
1. Seeing the Xindi-Insectoid again.
2. The goop weapon
3. Cool CGI with Rajiin's scanning
4. Promiscuous Hoshi
Overall, I'd give it a 78%. Either a C+ or a B- depending on where ya stand.

TUE

Surely that would be the better thing to do rather than steal her from someone (judging the alien pimp to be a degenerate just because of his own attitudes does contradict "Cogenitor") who has a rightful claim to her. - TUE

I see, so if the alien was holding an unwilling T'Pol or Hoshi to use as sex slaves, Archer shouldn't interfere because, hey, the alien "rightfully" owns them, right?

---Critique:
---Mostly a piece of utter bullsh*t redeemed at the last hour by a good fourth Act that advances the Xindi arc.
---The episode unfolded as yet another eyeroll-inducing, mentally retarded piece of pap filled with yet more sexual innuendo involving people rubbing each other all over their bodies, and I just wanted it to end. Then Act 4 happened, and I was relieved. After a few episodes of stalling, it was a nice surprise to see the Enterprise crew actually come into contact with the Xindi, and two of their species, no less. The manner in which the Xindi easily beat the MACOs and Reed’s men with their superior technology created a good amont of surprise and suspense. But we’d better d@mn well not get another filler pastiche episode next week like Extinction.
---The trading of spices in the opening scene of Act 2 was a nice acknowledgement of history. The continuing search for trellium D to insulate the ship against the anomalies of the Expanse was also a good continuity point, as was the fact that the effects of Archer’s mutation in the previous episode, both physical and psychological, did not simply disappear at the end of that episode. I liked that there is a thumbprint-restricted security panel on crew quarters for emergency access.

---Notes:
---We see Xindi Reptilian starships for the first time. Curiously, they’re shaped like horseshoe crabs, much like the Son’a ships in Star Trek Insurrection.
---Act 1 also establishes that Cutler stayed on the Enterprise after The Expanse, and works in the Exobiology Lab. The episode also establishes that there are panels on crew quarters that allow officers, presumably senior officers, to open others’ quarters with their thumbprint.
---Giving us yet more info on trellium-D, the episode establishes that it is rare, difficult to process, can only be synthesized in its liquid state, and is extremely unstable in that state.

---Terms:
Degra The Xindi humanoid who speaks to the Xindi Council in the teaser, revealed to be in charge of the Xindi weapon that will be used to destroy Earth.
The Khavorta Posture Technique in Vulcan neuro-pressure that Trip asks T’Pol to perform on him in the opening scene of Act 1.
surah’tahn Technique in Vulcan neuro-pressure that T’Pol suggests she perform on Trip in the opening scene of Act 1.
V’radian Race to which a chemist that Archer mentions to Phlox in the beginning of Act 1 that he met at a deuterium on Nerrelis station who told him that he knows a way to synthesize trellium D.
Exobiology Lab Room on the Enterprise where Crewman Cutler broke her arm when an anomaly passed through it, as Phlox tells Archer in Act 1.
B’Rat Ud The V’Radian chemist whose shop is on Tier 2, Barge 12 in the bazaar on the planet visited by the Enterprise, whom Archer says he met on Norrellus.
Xanthan marmots Animals that the alien animal merchant tells Archer make wonderful pets, and whose flesh is quite succulent when properly prepared.
Norrellus Planet on which is located a deuterium station where B’Rat Ud met Archer, and told him he would sell him the formula for synthesizing trellium-D, as Archer reminds him in Act 1.
trellium-A Substance that B’Rat Ud tells Archer in Act 1 is extremely common and easy to synthesize compared to trellium-D.
Zjod Alien slavetrader to which B’Rat Ud refers Archer in Act 1 for information on the Xindi, whom they meet at the end of Act 1. (Name from startrek.com only.)
U’tani serpent women Sentient commodity, two of which Zjod tells Archer in Act 1 he sold the Xindi the previous week.
Nuvian concubine Blone woman that Zjod offers to sell Archer after Archer’s meeting with B’Rat Ud.
Rajiin The alien woman that Archer rescues in Act 1, who later turns out to be a Xindi agent who takes biometric scans of the Enterprise crew to report back to the Xindi council.
Oran’taku The name that Rajiin tells Archer that she’s been told is the name of her homeworld in the closing scene of Act 1.

He must’ve worked as a cab driver on Earth
Okay, so why does the alien merchant who tries to sell Archer Xanthan marmots in Act 1 have an Earth Indian accent?
The writer of the episode is a big fan of Rube Goldberg
If Archer met B’Rat Ud at a deuterium station on Norellus some time before this episode, and B’Rat told him that he would sell him the formula for synthesizing trellium-D, why are they only now meeting at his shop? Did B’Rat not have the formula with him at Norellus? Did he not want to sell it away from his shop? Did the Enterprise need time to resequence the spices they’d sell to him? The episode never says. Why doesn’t the episode just show Archer meeting B’Rat for the first time and getting the formula then?
He was too busy taking bets
Why doesn’t Reed help Archer when he tussles with Zjod in Act 1?
I know Phlox has degrees in many areas, but is hospitality management one of them?
In the closing scene of Act 1, Archer tells Phlox to set up Rajiin in quarters. First, as I mentioned under nits for Precious Cargo, Fallen Hero established that there are no spare guest quarters aboard the Enterprise, and I’d wonder if things are even more cramp now with the MACOs onboard. Second, why is Archer delegating this duty to Phlox?
Thank God these guys don’t work in the Passport Office
Archer tells Rajiin in the second scene of Act 2 that Phlox comes from Denobula. In Act 2 of Breaking the Ice, Phlox said he came from Denobula Triaxa. Trip made the same mistake in Oasis.
You’ve heard of Transporter Psychosis. This is Transporter Stupidity.
Should the transporter really be out in the open in a corridor where a visitor can just stroll by it, as Rajiin does in Act 2? I know we’ve seen it before, but I never got a clear sense before that the area where it was located wasn’t restricted.
From the “She’s Got the Cooties” Dept.:
Archer is stupid for coming into close contact with Rajiin in the brig when confronting her at the end of Act 3, without at least having one of his guards in the cell watching her at phaserpoint, knowing what she can do. At the very least, he should stay far away from her, but he comes up to her and grabs her.
Geez, I’d hate to be in the middle of a divorce with this guy
Archer should be on the bridge when the Xindi attack at the end of Act 3 and beginning of Act 4, but he instead remains in the brig arguing with Rajiin.
Actually, the larger version uses something much worse: It broadcasts reruns of “The Xindi” and “Extinction” over and over
Rajiin tells Archer in Act 4 that the weapon the Xindi are building is a bioweapon. But I thought the Xindi probe that attacked Earth in The Expanse, which used some type disintegrating energy blast, was a test version, which suggested to me that the main one was simply a larger version of the same type of weapon.
From the “Just Like the Water in the Toilet This Series is Going Down” Dept.:
When the Xindi ships escape in Act 4, Travis tells Archer that they went through some type of vortex. A vortex is a swirling spiral shape, but the energy signature of the Xindi ships’ disappearance has no such shape, and looked more like the cloaking fields seen in Anomaly. How is that signature a swirling spiral?

TUE -- It is shown in this episode that the Xindi possess some sort of vortex technology.
LUIGI NOVI -- When the Xindi ships escape in Act 4, Travis tells Archer that they went through some type of vortex.

Actually, it was somekinda vortex (according to Travis).

Kazeite: So... I believe this is the very first Enterprise episode to feature... brothel.
Luigi Novi: Actually, that would be Broken Bow. Moreover, Zjod was selling the women, not renting them.

roger: Here's another missed opportunity to at least mention Orions. One of the slave women is a "Nubian". Nubia is in Africa, and none of the women looked African.
Luigi Novi: She was Nuvian, not Nubian.

roger: The (male, of course) announcer for the previews says she has powers no crewmember can resist. So the female crewmembers can't resist her either? Will we see anything the least bit lesbian in this episode? I don't think so.
Luigi Novi: She apparently did her thing on both Hoshi and T’Pol.

roger: In the Xindi scenes, they should have had the subtitles projected from within the water tank so the other Xindi are reading the same subtitles we are. And the insectoid Xindi should have a projector in front of him which shows a translation as well. There should be a monitor inside the water tank for the aquatic Xindi to read the translations of what the other Xindi are saying.
Luigi Novi: They don’t need to, because they either have universal translators, or understand the other languages. Phlox and T’Pol don’t seem to need this, nor do any of the aliens the Enterprise encounters. Why would the Xindi, who are from the same home world?

roger: Have we gotten any indication of why the Xindi thought it would be a good idea to attack Florida? And only that one region of our planet?
Luigi Novi: Yes. The indication was that it was a test. There was no indication that there was anything particular about the location; it could’ve been arbitrary or random.

roger: Why can't Trip and T'Pol do that massage stuff in Sickbay so nobody gets suspicious?
Luigi Novi: T’Pol doesn’t care if others talk about her. Personally, I think there should be stringent rules regarding gossip on the ship, and as Trip’s friend, Reed should know better than to act like such a jerk regarding something Trip is doing to help him sleep after suffering the trauma of Elizabeth’s loss.

roger: Can't T'Pol teach it to Phlox?
Luigi Novi: Possibly. But it may take a long time to do so. What’s Trip supposed to do in the meantime?

roger: Is it realistic that Phlox wouldn't have any medical assistants?
Luigi Novi: I think he should have a nurse. There do seem to be other crewmen trained as emergency med techs for emergencies, as seen in Minefield.

roger: About the ending: We can tell they're villains because they're not respectful of women and their opinions
Luigi Novi: There was no clear indication of this. Rajiin is not a Council member, and for all we know, the Reptilian Council member’s admonishment to her was based on this.

roger: The Xindi don't seem concerned about getting data on Vulcans, Denobulans or any other races. Don't they want to destroy anybody else's homeworld?
Luigi Novi: No, because Vulcan and Denobula Triaxa weren’t implicated in The Expanse in the destruction of the Xindi in 400 years.

roger: Archer asks if it was a surgical enhancement, and Phlox snarls, "If you can call it an enhancement." He delivered that line just perfectly! It was a fabulous moment.
Luigi Novi: Archer never said any such thing. It was Phlox who said he was enhanced, and then added the line “…if you can call it an enhancement.”

Sparrow47: They, uh, never explained how Rajin got into T'Pol's quarters.
Luigi Novi: Because they know that we can gather from the fact that she’s an intelligence agent that she has training in such things as code breaking and lockpicking. They also know that we can gather from the fact that her body’s been enhanced to both scan and overpower others, that it may also have been enhanced with the ability to affect devices like locks.

Sparrow47: Oh, and speaking of Rajin, where did she get the clothes that she wore for most of the ep?
Luigi Novi: The Enterprise crew gave them to her. Why is this a problem?

Sparrow47: Linda Park did a good job of conveying her "seduction" in her scene with Rajin. It was a very subtle performance.
Luigi Novi: What performance? What did she do? She didn’t “convey” anything. Nothing about her facial expression or speech pattern was any different than in any other scene she’s done.

Trike: Warm up the tribunal; Archer needs to be court-martialed. I cannot think of a better candidate than Archer bringing aboard Rajiin for his worst command decision of all time. Archer, who was on a military mission, brought aboard a passenger to ferry her home. The idea of bringing her aboard as an errand of mercy doesn't hold up because of all the other slave-women he left on the surface.
Luigi Novi: It holds up peferctly consistently, because those women didn’t ask Archer for help. Rajiin did. If you watch Cogenitor, you’ll see that that was one of the questions Archer asks Trip when questioning his actions with “Charles.” He asks Trip if Charles asked for asylum or education. The policy toward political asylum (also seen in The Perfect Mate(TNG)) is that Starfleet cannot force it upon people that they think are being oppressed. The oppressed person has to have the initiative to ask for it.

There is also zero indication that granting asylum to people fleeing oppression is not allowed during a diplomatic or military mission. The need to encourage enlightened philosophy to people lacking civil rights and grant asylum to them is not a “peacetime only” policy.

Trike: Archer had no idea of Rajiin's background or motives. In that respect, he got what he deserved.
Luigi Novi: He had no way of knowing her background or motives, and did the right thing by granting her asylum, regardless of whether she turned out to be a Xindi agent. The idea that someone “deserves” to be betrayed by someone he tries to help is bunk.

Trike: Even worse, he physically assaulted a man who had a rightful claim to Rajiin.
Luigi Novi: A slavetrader cannot have a “rightful” claim to own people, nor does Earth/the Federation recognize slavery as a right.

Trike: He basically stole her.
Luigi Novi: No, he basically freed her.

Trike: Archer knew his people would be returning to the surface. Didn't he think there would have been repercussions?
Luigi Novi: The fact that there may be repercussions does not mitigate the need to grant asylum to people fleeing slavery.

Trike: Next, Rajiin said she knew "very little" about the Xindi. "The two I saw were reptilian." If she knew so little about them, how did she know there was more than one species?
Luigi Novi: She didn’t indicate that she did. She was just describing the ones that she saw. If someone asks you if you ever met the Jarada, and you say that you encountered two beings who claimed to be Jaradan, and that they looked insectoid, does that mean there is more than species, and that you know this?

Trike: In sick bay, Archer said to Rajiin, "I'm afraid I don't know your name." That means it didn't come up during the entire shuttle ride back to the ship, including when Trip would have seen Rajiin for the first time.
Luigi Novi: Doesn’t seem odd to me. They were focused on getting her out of there and back to the ship.

Trike: Where were Archer and Rajiin eating? Why weren't they in the mess hall or captain's mess?
Luigi Novi: It appeared that they were indeed eating in the Captain’s Dining Room.

Trike: During the fight with the Xindi, several people suffered injuries, but none were in sick bay afterward.
Luigi Novi: Perhaps they were treated and released before Phlox examined the Xindi Reptilian.

Kazeite: OK, so Archer wants to know some informations about reptillian Xindi from the courtesans because?...
Luigi Novi: First of all, he didn’t say “reptilian,” he just said, “Xindi.”

Kazeite: I mean, he posseses now almost complete Xindi database, which gimes him enormous tactical advantage.
Luigi Novi: He possesses now 90% of the database from one Xindi ship, (not necessarily the sum of all Xindi knowledge) and thus, we have no way of knowing what tactical advantage, if any, this gives him.

Kazeite: And how Archer knew to jam Raijin communications?
Luigi Novi: Well, he probably had Hoshi do it, but even if he did it himself, how would he not know this? He’s the captain of the ship.

Kazeite: How Xindi knew where Raijin is being kept?
Luigi Novi: They scanned the Enterprise for her. She may also have tracking devices on her for this.

Keith Alan Morgan: The Xindi are storming the ship & I'm thinking, 'Shouldn't there be emergency bulkheads slamming down?
Luigi Novi: How long would that stop the boarding party, given that they easily blew the airlock open?

KAM If a comet traveling much slower than Warp can supposedly wipe out a large number a species (Cretaceous Period) then a kamakaze spaceship at Warp can do a hell of a lot more damage.

Darth Sarcasm: Except a starship at warp doesn't exist in real space, and thus isn't moving that fast at all.
Luigi Novi: Would impulse be enough?

Anonymous: Why would the brig be made of glass or some other kind of breakable substance?
Luigi Novi: We don’t know it was glass. For all we know, it was a durable, reinforced substance that simply could not withstand the Xindi munitions.

Darth Sarcasm: I don't think it has ever been mentioned that he holds an "almost complete" Xindi database.

Well, I thought that in Anomaly they acquired almost complete Xindi database, didn't they? And now Archer mentions that "they have some data on this region of space".

Sure, he has a database that they're still trying to translate, which takes time. But I doubt the database contains any and all the information he's looking for.

Like location of any Xindi planet? We know that they were looking for Xindi homeworld. We know that they are looking for any planet that Xindi were on and we know that they have the means to do that.

They now actually have the luxury to be cautious.

Furthermore, he's looking, specifically, for information on the Xindi weapon, which I doubt is just lying about an every Xindi vessel he salvages.

Huh? I thought he was trying to contact Xindi, not to find that weapon he knows is unfinished.

Perhaps the Suliban pod is on Earth now.

I sure hope so...

Archer didn't interfere until Rajiin approached him and asked for help.

So? How was he supposed to know whether it's for example some exotic mating ritual between Raijin and her "owner"? Also he handled this thing in worst possible way. Like it was mentioned, the fact that later trip to the city was uneventful should be clear sign that something it's wrong.

Reed didn't try to use torpedoes that we know of.

So we are supposed to rationalize their every error? Believe me, I realize that everything could be explained with more or less verbal skills, but if we actually have to explain that things then there's abviously something wrong with the show.
Showing the usage of all available weapons was "perfectly sound, justified, and smart thing to do." And it increases ratings, too

And who's to say Mayweather didn't try to maneuver the ship to avoid the Reptilians, but couldn't because of damage from the initial volley.

Um, what damage? Mayweather was able to pilot ship just fine after Xindi escape. Enterprise looked just fine, too (as opposed to Shockwave 2 visible scorch marks.)

And perhaps the Xindi ships were too close to Enterprise to warrant use of torpedoes.

Two words: variable firepower. (or is it three words? )


By this point, the crew was well-aware of Rajiin's duplicity.

If I may, that's a pretty lame explanation
Better explanations would be that Hoshi detected her transmission

In fact, given that the Xindi think that humans are pretty bad people, why would their plan rely on Archer's compassion?

Perhaps they got some info from Osaarian from Anomaly?

That would be a pretty good indication that Archer lets compassion "interfere with the mission".

Anonymous: Why would the brig be made of glass or some other kind of breakable substance?

Luigi Novi: We don’t know it was glass. For all we know, it was a durable, reinforced substance that simply could not withstand the Xindi munitions.

Precisely. It may well have been Transparent Aluminum, since the formula has been known since 1986

I'm starting to get annoyed with the Internet. Even decent episodes are criticized to death. Geez.

In case you haven't noticed, this bulletin board is specifically devoted to the criticizing episodes. It's kinda like walking into the church and complaining that priests criticizes sins.

Luigi Novi: First of all, he didn’t say “reptilian,” he just said, “Xindi.”

Let me rephrase that: "So Archer wants to know some informations about Xindi from the courtesans because?..."

Luigi Novi: He possesses now 90% of the database from one Xindi ship, (not necessarily the sum of all Xindi knowledge) and thus, we have no way of knowing what tactical advantage, if any, this gives him.

Well, shortage of information didn't seem to be a problem in previous Trek series

But we do know that he knows where Xindi ship have been.
If his mission is to defuse this whole situation and if he was looking for the Xindi homoeworld, shouldn't he go to the coordinates of first planet Xindi were on, according to their database?
Surely, you don't think that he want's to barge inside with guns blazing, let loose the MACOs of war, and then go home whistling?
I'm pretty sure he aims for the diplomatic solutions.

Luigi Novi: Well, he probably had Hoshi do it, but even if he did it himself, how would he not know this? He’s the captain of the ship.

Now, you see, that's what I mean when I say that English is not my first language

I meant to say how he knew that he should jam communications.

Anonymous: Why would the brig be made of glass or some other kind of breakable substance?

Luigi Novi: We don’t know it was glass. For all we know, it was a durable, reinforced substance that simply could not withstand the Xindi munitions.

Precisely. It may well have been Transparent Aluminum, since the formula has been known since 1986

I figured that the material was durable enough, but that the device planted on it to make it shatter (and easy enough to bat pieces out of the way when entering the cell) essentially "froze" the molecules, or subjected it to such a high sonic vibration that it disrupted the strength.

Well, I thought that in Anomaly they acquired almost complete Xindi database, didn't they? And now Archer mentions that "they have some data on this region of space". - Kazeite

They had a database from one Xindi ship, as Luigi pointed out earlier, it's unlikely this database contained the sum of all Xindi knowledge.


Like location of any Xindi planet? We know that they were looking for Xindi homeworld. We know that they are looking for any planet that Xindi were on and we know that they have the means to do that. - Kazeite

You're speculating. We (the audience) don't know what information was contained in that database. For all we know, the database was a collection of Xindi literature.


Huh? I thought he was trying to contact Xindi, not to find that weapon he knows is unfinished. - Kazeite

He's trying to do both. Archer's goal is to stop the impending Xindi attack on Earth. Finding the weapon is a part of that mission, as is trying to contact the Xindi.


Like it was mentioned, the fact that later trip to the city was uneventful should be clear sign that something it's wrong. - Kazeite

In the "later trip" in question, Reed avoided the slave market area.


So we are supposed to rationalize their every error? - Kazeite

You're assuming this is an error, when it could just as easily be something that happened off-screen while they were showing us something else.


Showing the usage of all available weapons was "perfectly sound, justified, and smart thing to do." And it increases ratings, too - Kazeite

And costly, I'm sure.


Um, what damage? Mayweather was able to pilot ship just fine after Xindi escape. Enterprise looked just fine, too (as opposed to Shockwave 2 visible scorch marks.) - Kazeite

If you'll recall, the Xindi ships hit Enterprise's nacelles, making them drop out of warp. There could be more internal damage to the ship that isn't apparent on the ship's surface. Happens all the time.


Two words: variable firepower. - Kazeite

I don't think it has been established that this is possible in this era.


If I may, that's a pretty lame explanation
Better explanations would be that Hoshi detected her transmission - Kazeite

If I may, that's a pretty ignorant response.

Based on the attack on T'Pol and Trip, Archer was aware that there was more to Rajiin than they expected. They may not have known that she would be contacting anyone from the ship, but jamming transmissions from the ship was a reasonable precaution. Sorry... I don't think it's lame.


Let me rephrase that: "So Archer wants to know some informations about Xindi from the courtesans because?..." - Kazeite

Because Archer is looking for any information that might lead him to the Xindi. For him to ignore a potential source of information would be foolish.


If his mission is to defuse this whole situation and if he was looking for the Xindi homoeworld, shouldn't he go to the coordinates of first planet Xindi were on, according to their database? - Kazeite

Maybe he did, and that's where he had met the alien trader. But since he didn't find any information that was of any use, the writers didn't bother to show us. We can assume Archer is following all sorts of leads, not just the ones we see him pursue on-screen.


I meant to say how he knew that he should jam communications. - Kazeite

Maybe he didn't. Jamming communications may have simply been a precaution.

Luigi Novi: Rajiin tells Archer in Act 4 that the weapon the Xindi are building is a bioweapon. But I thought the Xindi probe that attacked Earth in The Expanse, which used some type disintegrating energy blast, was a test version, which suggested to me that the main one was simply a larger version of the same type of weapon.

Me too. But perhaps after that test, the Xindi decided to change their approach for a reason we don't know yet. Just speculating.

Actually, both the Teaser and the final scene hold the answer to this... one of the Xindi talks about there not being any alternative than to wait for Degra to finish. One of the Reptiles says that isn't true. Then there is some discussion that they don't have enough information about the humans to construct this alternate weapon...

So there are two weapons: the one the Legion of Doom is working together on and the one the Reptiles and Insects are also working on with or without the consent of the Xindi council because Degra is taking too long.

OK, who else thought the boarding of Enterprise was very similar to the opening of Star Wars? Exploding hatch, troops come in firing, security team trying to repel and getting gunned down. I expected Darth Vader to step through the hatch and order, "Tear this ship apart until you've found those plans!"

Seriously, the B's need to get a military consultant for this show. Security matters are usually a joke on Trek, but this was awful. There are basic skills to moving in close quarters and covering your fire team without getting shot in the back. And a crew of 80 some-odd persons should be able to get more than 3 armed people to the hatch. Especially those MACOs, they should have swarmed the airlock and pinned the invaders right there.

I did like a few things- the grenade Reed threw (although the fuse was too long), the fact that their weapons had little effect on the invaders, and the MACO saving Archer with his stun baton.

Archer doesn't seem terribly interested in gathering intelligence on the Expanse, he walks through a marketplace and doesn't want to talk to any merchants. Why not let Phlox, Travis and Hoshi talk to the locals while Archer and Trip secure the trellium formula?

Archer also needs to quit doing interrogations, he's not very good at it. Rajin tells him that the Xindi are building a bioweapon, but he doesn't ask her what her role is, or what she's trying to accomplish aboard the ship.

It would have been a more interesting end to the episode if Archer had known she was carring the bio-info the Xindi need. As the airlock was closing on her they could exchange that meaningful glance, and then have Archer wrestle his phase pistol up and shoot Rajin in the chest to deny the Xindi her information.

Kazeite: OK, so Archer wants to know some informations about reptillian Xindi from the courtesans because?...
Luigi Novi: He doesn’t. He wants information on the Xindi from Zjod, the slavetrader, because B’Rat told Archer that Zjod recently did business with them. It was Zjod who suggested that perhaps one of the women, who have collectively been to many worlds, would have information on the Xindi. Not Archer.

(Sorry I forgot to complete my original answer to this question when I posted my first rebuttals. It slipped by my proofreading.)

Kazeite: Well, I thought that in Anomaly they acquired almost complete Xindi database, didn't they?
Luigi Novi: They acquired 90% of the database from one Xindi ship, which does not mean the sum of all knowledge on the Xindi.

Darth Sarcasm: Sure, he has a database that they're still trying to translate, which takes time. But I doubt the database contains any and all the information he's looking for.

Kazeite: Like location of any Xindi planet? We know that they were looking for Xindi homeworld. We know that they are looking for any planet that Xindi were on and we know that they have the means to do that.
Luigi Novi: They went to the supposed location of the homeworld at the end of The Xindi, and found only a debris field, so they wouldn’t know which planet to go at this point.

Darth Sarcasm: Archer didn't interfere until Rajiin approached him and asked for help.

Kazeite: So? How was he supposed to know whether it's for example some exotic mating ritual between Raijin and her "owner"?
Luigi Novi: C’mon, Kazeite. She asked him to help her. He did so. At no time when taking her about the shuttlepod or showing her around the Enterprise did Rajiin stop and say, “Wait, I was just joking…” Instead, she repeatedly thanked him in sickbay and in his private Dining Room. How far is he expected to think that this supposed “ritual” would go before she would break character?

Darth Sarcasm: Reed didn't try to use torpedoes that we know of.

Kazeite: So we are supposed to rationalize their every error?
Luigi Novi: You have not established that there was an error, because we didn’t SEE the ship-to-ship battle. You’re asking why torpedoes and evasive maneuvers weren’t used. Darth is correctly asking how you established that they weren’t in the first place.

Kazeite: Believe me, I realize that everything could be explained with more or less verbal skills, but if we actually have to explain that things then there's abviously something wrong with the show.
Luigi Novi: The problem here is that it is you who has to establish that those weapons weren’t used. You haven’t.

Kazeite: Showing the usage of all available weapons was "perfectly sound, justified, and smart thing to do." And it increases ratings, too
Luigi Novi: What does not showing the use the such weapons have to do with not using them? The fact that showing the usage of weapons increases ratings only means that perhaps the sequence wasn’t as visually striking to you as it could have been. It does not mean that it didn’t occur.

Darth Sarcasm: And who's to say Mayweather didn't try to maneuver the ship to avoid the Reptilians, but couldn't because of damage from the initial volley.

Kazeite: Um, what damage? Mayweather was able to pilot ship just fine after Xindi escape. Enterprise looked just fine, too (as opposed to Shockwave 2 visible scorch marks.)
Luigi Novi: Damage to a ship does not necessarily show up with scorch marks. We’ve seen the ship sustain damage many times throughout the decades on Trek without them. The Xindi fired on the Enterprise’s nacelles, causing them to drop out of warp in the beginning of Act 4. This means they disabled, even if only temporarily while power was rerouted or the warp field brought back online.

Can you show me where there were scorch marks in Fallen Hero, Starship Down(DS9) or Disaster(TNG)? All of those episodes involved the ship sustaining damage.

Darth Sarcasm: And perhaps the Xindi ships were too close to Enterprise to warrant use of torpedoes.

Kazeite: Two words: variable firepower.
Luigi Novi: Variable firepower does not in and of itself eliminate the possibility that the Xindi ship was too close.

Darth Sarcasm: By this point, the crew was well-aware of Rajiin's duplicity.

Kazeite: If I may, that's a pretty lame explanation
Luigi Novi: It is a perfectly solid explanation. They realized this woman was a potential enemy, and perhaps closer monitoring of transmissions is part of the stricter protocols Reed’s Tactical Alert.

Kazeite: Better explanations would be that Hoshi detected her transmission
Luigi Novi: Who’s to say that she didn’t? Perhaps that’s why they jammed it.

Kazeite: Well, shortage of information didn't seem to be a problem in previous Trek series
Luigi Novi: I’m not sure what you mean, or how this pertains to this episode. They went to the location of the Xindi homeworld at the end of The Xindi, found only debris, and left. Sure, they may have info on some other planets, but they don’t know which are significant, or on which the Xindi Council is located. For all we know, that database doesn’t have any info on the Council. If a commercial airliner crashes, and you find some laptop computers in the rubble with information on them that’s salvageable, would you necessarily expect to find classified government secrets or plans on our troop movements abroad?

Kazeite: But we do know that he knows where Xindi ship have been.
Luigi Novi: And why do you assume that the passengers on that ship had anything to do with the Xindi Council? It’s like assuming that some van full of refugees driving through the Iraqi desert must have something to do with Saddam Hussein, or the Baathists.

Kazeite: I meant to say how he knew that he should jam communications.
Luigi Novi: He and Hoshi were both scanned/seduced by Rajiin. One or both of them alerted the bridge, and went to tactical alert, which required them to more closely monitor communications.

Kazeite: Two words: variable firepower.

Darth Sarcasm: I don't think it has been established that this is possible in this era.
Luigi Novi: Actually, Reed mentioned it to Trip in Act 3 of The Expanse.

Darth Sarcasm: one of the Xindi talks about there not being any alternative than to wait for Degra to finish. One of the Reptiles says that isn't true. Then there is some discussion that they don't have enough information about the humans to construct this alternate weapon...
Luigi Novi: Actually, they only spoke of another “option,” not specifying that it was another weapon, but yeah, it could be that.

Obi-Juan: OK, who else thought the boarding of Enterprise was very similar to the opening of Star Wars? Exploding hatch, troops come in firing, security team trying to repel and getting gunned down.
Luigi Novi: Isn’t that what enemy boardings of ships generally involve?

Obi-Juan: Archer doesn't seem terribly interested in gathering intelligence on the Expanse, he walks through a marketplace and doesn't want to talk to any merchants. Why not let Phlox, Travis and Hoshi talk to the locals while Archer and Trip secure the trellium formula?
Luigi Novi: Because they already know that trellium-D is what insulates against the anomalies of the Expanse. There may be other aspects of the Expanse, sure, but who’s to say that he and his crew haven’t gathered information on those things as well? They were in the Expanse for six weeks by the time of The Xindi, so it’s very likely.

Darth Sacrasm: You're speculating. We (the audience) don't know what information was contained in that database. For all we know, the database was a collection of Xindi literature.

No, I'm drawing logical conclusion from what we've seen in the beginning of Extinction. Enterprise now possesses XIndi database which contains Xindi starcharts, we know that for sure. Those starcharts (by default) should contain locations of planets. And we know that Archer was able to find out where Xindi ship was before they stumbled upon pirates, so, is there any reason why can't he do it again?

In the "later trip" in question, Reed avoided the slave market area.

We don't know that for sure. Now it is you who assumes that certain things cannot happen offscreen.

You're assuming this is an error, when it could just as easily be something that happened off-screen while they were showing us something else.

Tell me, have you heard about so-called "Janeway Maneuver"? in VOY (and TNG, too, actually), while under attack, Janeway often delayed returning fire for no apparent reason.
The similiar thing happens here - I instantly knew that Enterprise is going to be boarded because of the weak response from the Enterprise.
And if Luigi can complain about transporter being in the corridor, which may, or may not be completely justificable, then I can complain about producers not showing us Enterprise using every possible measure to defend itself

And costly, I'm sure.
Tell me, are you familiar with the book "Trapp's war" by Brian Callison? It featured greedy captain motivated almost enirely by the profits, who was forcibly drafted in the Royal Navy. So, narrator of the book , who is Trapps new first officer at one point imagines crew of Trapps ship trying to get to escape rafts and Trapp screaming "Don't scratch the paint! It's expensive!"

So, you are trying to tell me that facing imminent danger Enterprise crew is not going use their weapons because they are expensive?
Gasp! Think about those expensive grenades! Reed, you bastard!

If I may, that's a pretty ignorant response.

Well, you know, I was just suprised that Archer got so smart all of the sudden

Luigi Novi: They acquired 90% of the database from one Xindi ship, which does not mean the sum of all knowledge on the Xindi.

But we know for sure that they now posses their starcharts. So that's why I'm asking why don't they actually use those starcharts

Luigi Novi: They went to the supposed location of the homeworld at the end of The Xindi, and found only a debris field, so they wouldn’t know which planet to go at this point.

They went to the supposed location of the homeworld because it was their only lead at the time. But now, with the starcharts they should be able to know the location of other Xindi planets, shouldn't they?


Luigi Novi: C’mon, Kazeite. She asked him to help her. He did so. At no time when taking her about the shuttlepod or showing her around the Enterprise did Rajiin stop and say, “Wait, I was just joking…”

You are trying to use her later behaviour to explain her earlier actions. Archer didn't know thay Raijin will be thanking him later.
And besides, like I said, he handled it very poorly, choosing violence before commerce
Zjod has apparently completely legal business. Two aliens barge in and steal his property. He know that they were doing business with B’Rat, so by the time Trip returned with spices this place should be swarming with local law enforcement officers, not to mention spaceport officers contacting Enterprise and demanding return of stolen "goods".
And yet, none of this happened... Are we supposed to assume that Archer is so naive that he didn't thought about consequences of his action?

Luigi Novi: You have not established that there was an error, because we didn’t SEE the ship-to-ship battle.

This was an error. Poor storytelling error.

Luigi Novi: What does not showing the use the such weapons have to do with not using them?
It instantly shows that Enterprise was about to be boarded. Compare this with the Anomaly battle, for example.


Luigi Novi: The Xindi fired on the Enterprise’s nacelles, causing them to drop out of warp in the beginning of Act 4. This means they disabled, even if only temporarily while power was rerouted or the warp field brought back online.
And yet Enterprise was able to fire back and after Xindi left was able to attempt to chase them without any word from Mayweather that, for example, maneuvering thrusters are down or impulse engines are down, or whatever?
Once again, it's poor storytelling error.

Luigi Novi:Can you show me where there were scorch marks in Fallen Hero, Starship Down(DS9) or Disaster(TNG)?

Different series, different budget
No, seriously Remember that excessive usage of stock footage in TNG? Or two different Mirandas in two different battles blowing in exactly same way in DS9? That's why in TNG blowing ship usually consisted of big fireball completely vaporising said thip.

Luigi Novi: Variable firepower does not in and of itself eliminate the possibility that the Xindi ship was too close.

Your ship is under attack, about to be boarded, and you are concerned that your ship may be damaged if you simply defend yourself?

Luigi Novi: It is a perfectly solid explanation. They realized this woman was a potential enemy, and perhaps closer monitoring of transmissions is part of the stricter protocols Reed’s Tactical Alert.

Now you are speculating
I'm not saying it's not possible, but, like I said, it was pretty suprising to see ENT character using common sense

Luigi Novi: Who’s to say that she didn’t? Perhaps that’s why they jammed it.

I was only joking. Right know I know it can be explained, but "jamming as precausion" idea in ENT just struck me as odd

Luigi Novi: Sure, they may have info on some other planets, but they don’t know which are significant, or on which the Xindi Council is located.

If they are trying to defuse Xindi situation, it shouldn't matter. Just fly to the nearest Xindi planet, explaing situation, allow yourself to be escorted to the Xindi counsil, explaing again situation, assure them that you have no intentions of blowing up their planet, and that's it. How simpler can it be?

Luigi Novi: And why do you assume that the passengers on that ship had anything to do with the Xindi Council?

Huh? I'm assuming only that passengers on that ship were Xindi, and those starcharts from database had informations about were Xindi were before. It's like assuming that some van full of refugees driving through the Iraqi desert can tell me where Baghdad is located. That's what I meant.

Luigi Novi: He and Hoshi were both scanned/seduced by Rajiin. One or both of them alerted the bridge, and went to tactical alert, which required them to more closely monitor communications.

Um, okay. I'm just suprised that Archer suddenly started to act like responsible adult

There was a discussion about two weapons. Pay attention, Luigi.

Obi-Juan: OK, who else thought the boarding of Enterprise was very similar to the opening of Star Wars? Exploding hatch, troops come in firing, security team trying to repel and getting gunned down.
Luigi Novi: Isn’t that what enemy boardings of ships generally involve?

Well, not on Star Trek. I too was reminded of Star Wars, due to the staging of the scene and the angles used in filming.

BTW, are Kazeite and Luigi Novi the same person? ??? I know "sock puppets" are frequent features of other boards. Similar posting times and styles... just wondering.

Darth Sacrasm: You're speculating. We (the audience) don't know what information was contained in that database. For all we know, the database was a collection of Xindi literature.

Kazeite: No, I'm drawing logical conclusion from what we've seen in the beginning of Extinction. Enterprise now possesses XIndi database which contains Xindi starcharts, we know that for sure. Those starcharts (by default) should contain locations of planets.
Luigi Novi: But we don’t know which planets. That Xindi ship was not necessarily related to the Xindi Council, any more than my father’s Buick is related to the White House, or the computer in my bedroom is related to the Pentagon.

Kazeite: And we know that Archer was able to find out where Xindi ship was before they stumbled upon pirates…
Luigi Novi: No, he found it after his encounter with the pirates. Watch Anomaly again. He found the modules inside the Osaarian Sphere, and then loaded the Osaarian database from the pirate’s ship during their second encounter. Extinction came after that.

Darth Sarcasm: In the "later trip" in question, Reed avoided the slave market area.

Kazeite: We don't know that for sure. Now it is you who assumes that certain things cannot happen offscreen.
Luigi Novi: No, Darth is applying common sense. Why would Reed and Trip go back there? They went there once, asked Zjod for info on the Xindi, and Zjod refused, and was only interested in selling them slaves. So their only interest left on the planet was giving the spices to B’Rat Ud for the trellium formula.

Darth Sarcasm: You're assuming this is an error, when it could just as easily be something that happened off-screen while they were showing us something else.

Kazeite: Tell me, have you heard about so-called "Janeway Maneuver"? in VOY (and TNG, too, actually), while under attack, Janeway often delayed returning fire for no apparent reason. The similiar thing happens here- I instantly knew that Enterprise is going to be boarded because of the weak response from the Enterprise.
Luigi Novi: No, a similar thing does not happen here, because we didn’t SEE what happens here. The ship-to-ship battle WASN’T SHOWN. The analogy is false. An episode showing the exchange (or lackthereof) between Voyager and an enemy ship is not analogous to an episode in which the exchange between the Enterprise and an enemy ship ISN’T SHOWN. You don’t know there was a “weak response” because we didn’t SEE their response.

Kazeite: And if Luigi can complain about transporter being in the corridor, which may, or may not be completely justificable, then I can complain about producers not showing us Enterprise using every possible measure to defend itself…
Luigi Novi: One has nothing to do with the other. First of all, each individually asserted nit must be argued individually. The fact that I see one possible nit in one scene does mean that another possible nit brought up by someone else in another scene is valid. Such reasoning is flat-out false. Whether you “can” complain about something has no bearing on whether your reasoning for that nit is solid.

Second, complaining that the creators do not show a scene involving defensive measures that you would have liked to have seen is not the same thing as reasoning that those defensive measures weren’t taken. You seem to be flip-flopping back and forth between complaining about the one, and arguing the other.

Kazeite: So, you are trying to tell me that facing imminent danger Enterprise crew is not going use their weapons because they are expensive?
Luigi Novi: I could be wrong, but I thought that Darth was talking about the effects shots being expensive for the producers.

Kazeite: But we know for sure that they now posses their starcharts. So that's why I'm asking why don't they actually use those starcharts
Luigi Novi: Because they don’t know where to go for the information they want on the Xindi.

Kazeite: They went to the supposed location of the homeworld because it was their only lead at the time. But now, with the starcharts they should be able to know the location of other Xindi planets, shouldn't they?
Luigi Novi: But that doesn’t mean they know which ones would lead to information on the Xindi Council.

Luigi Novi: C’mon, Kazeite. She asked him to help her. He did so. At no time when taking her about the shuttlepod or showing her around the Enterprise did Rajiin stop and say, “Wait, I was just joking…”

Kazeite: You are trying to use her later behaviour to explain her earlier actions. Archer didn't know thay Raijin will be thanking him later.
Luigi Novi: No, I am not using “later behavior to explain earlier actions,” I’m applying common sense and rational thinking instead of wildly improbable or counterintuitive reasoning in pointing out that Rajiin ran up to Archer, and pleaded, “Take me with you please!” She asked Archer to take her with him. He did so. She did not then change her mind afterwards and say, “No, wait, I didn’t really want you to take me with you, I was just joking.” Reading this as me “using later behavior to explain earlier actions” requires you to be extremely obtuse in your reasoning. Why, after she asked Archer to do one thing for her, should Archer instead assume that she is doing something else for which there is no evidence? You’re saying there’s no evidence by which he should’ve understood that she wanted him to take her with him, but that there is evidence by which he should’ve gathered that she was doing some type of ritual?

Kazeite: And besides, like I said, he handled it very poorly, choosing violence before commerce Zjod has apparently completely legal business.
Luigi Novi: And Starfleet/The Federation is committed to providing asylum to those escaping slavery because they have made a deliberate policy of not RECOGNIZING such claims because they violate basic civil rights. Granting asylum to someone fleeing slavery is both perfectly justified and perfectly consistent with established Earth/Federation views toward it.

Moreover, we don’t know what the legal structure on this planet is. For all we know, there isn’t any.

Kazeite: Two aliens barge in and steal his property. He know that they were doing business with B’Rat so by the time Trip returned with spices this place should be swarming with local law enforcement officers, not to mention spaceport officers contacting Enterprise and demanding return of stolen "goods". And yet, none of this happened... Are we supposed to assume that Archer is so naive that he didn't thought about consequences of his action?
Luigi Novi: The need to provide asylum to victims of oppressive cultures is greater than the need to avoid such situations, and again, we don’t know if there even is any law enforcement on this planet.

Luigi Novi: You have not established that there was an error, because we didn’t SEE the ship-to-ship battle.

Kazeite: This was an error. Poor storytelling error.
Luigi Novi: No, it was choice. One that you didn’t care for aesthetically. That doesn’t make it an “error,” because such aesthetic things as storytelling choices are subjective. There are many instances I which important events occurred offscreen. The in media res approach to episodes is a good example, and many episodes like Counterpoint(VOY) utilized it.

Second, even if it was poor storytelling, that does not mean that these actions DIDN’T HAPPEN. The fact that the creators didn’t show something you think is important, doesn’t mean those things didn’t happen. Using this reasoning, no one laid the keel when first building the Enterprise, or the Defiant, or the Voyager, no one goes to the bathroom, people rarely sleep, eat, etc.

Luigi Novi: What does not showing the use the such weapons have to do with not using them?

Kazeite: It instantly shows that Enterprise was about to be boarded. Compare this with the Anomaly battle, for example.
Luigi Novi: Again, you confusing the aesthetic reaction to the storytelling with arguing whether those events occurred. What about the scene in Anomaly? Was it cooler? Yeah. So what? No one here is arguing that the battle here wasn’t as visually interesting as the one in Anomaly. I still don’t see what not showing using such maneuvers has to do with the idea that they weren’t executed, which is what we can’t establish.

Luigi Novi: The Xindi fired on the Enterprise’s nacelles, causing them to drop out of warp in the beginning of Act 4. This means they disabled, even if only temporarily while power was rerouted or the warp field brought back online.

Kazeite: And yet Enterprise was able to fire back and after Xindi left was able to attempt to chase them without any word from Mayweather that, for example, maneuvering thrusters are down or impulse engines are down, or whatever?
Luigi Novi: Your argument was that there was no damage because there was no scorch marks. Darth and I pointed out that this reasoning is FALSE. First, many episodes featured damage without visible marks. Second, the Xindi were able to bring the Enterprise out of warp by firing on its nacelles, which means that the Enterprise was disabled, if only temporarily, while power was rerouted, or the warp field RE-ESTABLISHED.

The fact that the Enterprise was able to fire back after they dropped out of warp is irrelevant, since we the scene cut away from the battle after just SIX SECONDS of it. The Xindi were firing on the Enterprise when the scene cut back to Archer in Rajiin’s brig cell. During this time, it is likely that the two Xindi ships were able to overpower the Enterprise, to board her. If the Xindi ships are faster, more maneuverable, and used grapplers, they could’ve boarded her, which is what they did.

Lastly, your statement that the Enterprise was able to “chase” the Xindi after they left is FALSE. All we saw was five seconds of the Enterprise just beginning to slowly go after them, right before the Xindi entered the “vortex,” not exactly a shining moment in the annals of pilot maneuvers or warp engineering. Even if they’re warp drive was brought back online, that’s not unusual. It’s very well possible that Engineering was able to reestablish the warp field by then, or was still working on it, hoping to bring it online momentarily.

Luigi Novi:Can you show me where there were scorch marks in Fallen Hero, Starship Down(DS9) or Disaster(TNG)?

Kazeite: Different series, different budget
No, seriously Remember that excessive usage of stock footage in TNG? Or two different Mirandas in two different battles blowing in exactly same way in DS9? That's why in TNG blowing ship usually consisted of big fireball completely vaporising said thip.
Luigi Novi: This doesn’t mean that damage shows up as scorch marks. The Mazarites brought the Enterprise out of warp in Fallen Hero. Same series. Same budget.

No scorch marks.

Luigi Novi: Variable firepower does not in and of itself eliminate the possibility that the Xindi ship was too close.

Kazeite: Your ship is under attack, about to be boarded, and you are concerned that your ship may be damaged if you simply defend yourself?
Luigi Novi: There are certain defensive measures that are not viable in certain situations for exactly that reason. Using phasers inside a seirillium nebula, for example, is not a good idea, as seen in Flashback(VOY). And if I understand correctly, the Enterprise only has forward torpedoes. (I could be wrong here.) If the enemy ship is not directly in front of you, I’m not sure that torpedoes are viable.

Luigi Novi: It is a perfectly solid explanation. They realized this woman was a potential enemy, and perhaps closer monitoring of transmissions is part of the stricter protocols Reed’s Tactical Alert.

Kazeite: Now you are speculating
Luigi Novi: Of course I’m speculating. I’m pointing out that some nits that some people feel are dead-solid have other possible explanations that have not been eliminated.

Kazeite: I'm not saying it's not possible, but, like I said, it was pretty suprising to see ENT character using common sense
Luigi Novi: So now doing the right thing is a nit?

Luigi Novi: Sure, they may have info on some other planets, but they don’t know which are significant, or on which the Xindi Council is located.

If they are trying to defuse Xindi situation, it shouldn't matter. Just fly to the nearest Xindi planet, explaing situation, allow yourself to be escorted to the Xindi counsil, explaing again situation, assure them that you have no intentions of blowing up their planet, and that's it. How simpler can it be?
Luigi Novi: Simplistic is more like it. Too bad you’re not in charge or finding Osama bin Laden or Mullah Omar. Why do you assume that the people the Enterprise contact know anything about the Council, or would even be inclined to help the Enterprise? Have the inhabitants of the Expanse struck you so far as the friendliest, most helpful people? It is for this reason that our own war on terrorism is fraught with uncertainty; Al Qaeda are guerilla fighters who operate in secret. Finding them is hard. So too, is it hard to find the Xindi.

Kazeite: Huh? I'm assuming only that passengers on that ship were Xindi, and those starcharts from database had informations about were Xindi were before. It's like assuming that some van full of refugees driving through the Iraqi desert can tell me where Baghdad is located. That's what I meant.
Luigi Novi: But the Enterprise already went to the Xindi equivalent of Baghdad in the season premiere. They found zip.

Rene: There was a discussion about two weapons. Pay attention, Luigi.
Luigi Novi: I reviewed the teaser and the end of Act 4 again. There was no mention of two weapons. There was mention of the bioweapon, and the other “option,” which could be another weapon.

Influx: BTW, are Kazeite and Luigi Novi the same person? ??? I know "sock puppets" are frequent features of other boards. Similar posting times and styles... just wondering.
Luigi Novi: My last post was yesterday at 11:29pm. Kazeite’s post after that was this morning at 5:24am. This one by me is 12:16pm my time, which I guess will be at 11:16am Nitcentral time. How is that similar posting times?

And we're over 100k! Hoo-wah!

Because they know that we can gather from the fact that she’s an intelligence agent that she has training in such things as code breaking and lockpicking. They also know that we can gather from the fact that her body’s been enhanced to both scan and overpower others, that it may also have been enhanced with the ability to affect devices like locks.Luigi Novi

Wait, she's an intelligence agent now? I think that's a bit of a stretch. But anyway, yeah, all that makes sense, but I didn't get any of it from the episode. If she can fiddle with locks, why didn't she try and escape from the brig?

The Enterprise crew gave them to her. Why is this a problem?Luigi Novi

Well, again, this is supposed to be a military mission, right? Who brought clothes like these on a military mission? Darth made a good point about the quartermaster perhaps being a source of the clothes, but if that's the case, why didn't they give Trip's Princess something else to wear in "Precious Cargo"? She was a princess, I say again, and all they did was throw a Starfleet jacket on her.

What performance? What did she do? She didn’t “convey” anything. Nothing about her facial expression or speech pattern was any different than in any other scene she’s done.Luigi Novi

Her speech pattern, maybe. Maybe. But everything else from Hoshi in that scene pointed to her really really wanting to get with Rajin, suggesting an intense curiosity and unabashed flirtation. Check out her facial expression as they're getting into the turbolift. She does not have that expression going on all the time.

Luigi Novi said: "There was no mention of two weapons. There was mention of the bioweapon, and the other 'option,' which could be another weapon."

Remember, the weapon we saw being tested in "The Expanse" was not biological. It was conventional. This other option mentioned at the Xindi Council -- which certain members opposed because they did not have enough information on humans -- was a biological weapon, hence the trap they laid with Rajiin.

So, you are trying to tell me that facing imminent danger Enterprise crew is not going use their weapons because they are expensive? - Kazeite

Funny.

But my remark about the cost was in response to your comment about showing us the special effects would increase the ratings.


But we know for sure that they now posses their starcharts. So that's why I'm asking why don't they actually use those starcharts. - Kazeite

But you have not established that they didn't use the starcharts. Perhaps Enterprise went to those locations and didn't find anything of value. The writers are not going to show us each and every lead, particularly if the lead leads nowhere. That would guarantee to lower the ratings.


Zjod has apparently completely legal business. Two aliens barge in and steal his property. - Kazeite

Again, Rajiin asked for Archer's help. She told him she didn't want to be there anymore.

As I asked before, what if it had been T'Pol or Hoshi forced into sex slavery... are you saying it would be irresponsible or immoral for Archer to intervene because, hey, Zjod was running a legitimate business?


by the time Trip returned with spices this place should be swarming with local law enforcement officers, not to mention spaceport officers contacting Enterprise and demanding return of stolen "goods". - Kazeite

We don't know that this is how this alien society views it. For all we know, Zjod can only legally sell the women for as long as they choose to be sold by him. Think of it as an actor's relationship with an agent... the agent serves as the actor's representative, "selling" his client to producers. But the actor is free to leave that agent at any time (depending on the contract).


Once again, it's poor storytelling error. - Kazeite

Please! If this had been a real situation on a real ship, as opposed to a fictional account, the information bandied back and forth would have been indecipherable to the audience. But good storytelling streamlines the process. They didn't show us Enterprise firing all torpedoes for the same reason they don't show us the crew having a meal each episode or the Captain going to the bathroom... because it wasn't necessary to the story. Would these things have made it more exciting? Perhaps. But it would have also drawn time away from the things they did want to tell us... about Rajiin and the Xindi boarding party.


Your ship is under attack, about to be boarded, and you are concerned that your ship may be damaged if you simply defend yourself? - Kazeite

Um... yeah... a lot of good fending off boarders will be if you blow yourself up in the process.


I'm not saying it's not possible, but, like I said, it was pretty suprising to see ENT character using common sense. - Kazeite

Now you're back-pedaling. You said my explanation was "lame," not that you were surprised that they acted properly.


If they are trying to defuse Xindi situation, it shouldn't matter. Just fly to the nearest Xindi planet, explaing situation, allow yourself to be escorted to the Xindi counsil, explaing again situation, assure them that you have no intentions of blowing up their planet, and that's it. How simpler can it be? - Kazeite

And again, for all we know, they did fly to those planets, but they didn't find anything of use. Again, writers have to streamline the storytelling process.

For instance, Archer mentions to the chemist that they met at a deuterium station. We never saw this. But we assume this happened between episodes (perhaps following one of the Xindi leads you're tlaking about). But it wasn't necessary for them to show us it happened.

You can't seriously expect them to do entire shows where they go visit these alien planets and nothing happens.


Wait, she's an intelligence agent now? I think that's a bit of a stretch. But anyway, yeah, all that makes sense, but I didn't get any of it from the episode. If she can fiddle with locks, why didn't she try and escape from the brig? - Sparrow47

Then what was she, if not an intelligence agent? She infiltrated Enterprise for the sole purpose of gathering intel for the Xindi. How is she not an intelligence agent? And perhaps she couldn't reach the locks in the Brig because they were on the other side of the door.


...if that's the case, why didn't they give Trip's Princess something else to wear in "Precious Cargo"? - Sparrow47

Then that would be a nit for Precious Cargo. But maybe Kaitaama just didn't like anything the quartermaster had to give her... or she refused to be fitted (she didn't like being touched, after all).


Her speech pattern, maybe. Maybe. But everything else from Hoshi in that scene pointed to her really really wanting to get with Rajin, suggesting an intense curiosity and unabashed flirtation. Check out her facial expression as they're getting into the turbolift. She does not have that expression going on all the time. - Sparrow47

I agree. I definitely saw a subtle flirtation between them.

Sparrow47: Wait, she's an intelligence agent now?
Luigi Novi: Well, isn’t she? Isn’t that what her assignment was? To gather biometric data on the crew for the bioweapon?

Sparrow47: If she can fiddle with locks, why didn't she try and escape from the brig?
Luigi Novi: Because the mechanism to gain entry to quarters is on the outside of the door, as we saw when Trip used his thumbprint and a couple of buttons to gain emergency entry into T’Pol’s. By contrast, I don’t think there is a mechanism to open the brig from inside it.

Sparrow47: Well, again, this is supposed to be a military mission, right? Who brought clothes like these on a military mission? Darth made a good point about the quartermaster perhaps being a source of the clothes, but if that's the case, why didn't they give Trip's Princess something else to wear in "Precious Cargo"? She was a princess, I say again, and all they did was throw a Starfleet jacket on her.
Luigi Novi: Good point. Perhaps because Kaitaama was to be immediately returned to the Kriosians, and Archer didn’t know how long Rajiin would be on board as they searched for Oran’taku.

Sparrow47: Check out her facial expression as they're getting into the turbolift. She does not have that expression going on all the time.
Luigi Novi: I reviewed the scene after you originally posted this point. I didn’t see anything different about her facial expression.

Trike: Remember, the weapon we saw being tested in "The Expanse" was not biological. It was conventional. This other option mentioned at the Xindi Council -- which certain members opposed because they did not have enough information on humans -- was a biological weapon, hence the trap they laid with Rajiin.
Luigi Novi: The fact that the weapon in The Expanse was conventional was pretty much the point of the nit. If the “other option” was the conventional weapon, why did they keep referring to it so ambiguously?

I don’t think there is a mechanism to open the brig from inside it.

That would be rather counterproductive, wouldn't it?

Luigi Novi: But we don’t know which planets. That Xindi ship was not necessarily related to the Xindi Council, any more than my father’s Buick is related to the White House, or the computer in my bedroom is related to the Pentagon.

But any Xindi planet would suffice if Archer really wants to make contact with Xindi. Find any Xindi, explain situation, be directed to Xindi council, etc...

Luigi Novi: No, he found it after his encounter with the pirates.

Sigh... yes, I know... I just typed "ship" instead of "homeworld" for no apparent reason... Sorry for that.

Luigi Novi: No, Darth is applying common sense. Why would Reed and Trip go back there?

Maybe because they had to pass that area in order to go to the B'rat shop? When fighting with Zjod they stumble into the shop of that Indian accent merchant.

Luigi Novi: No, a similar thing does not happen here, because we didn’t SEE what happens here. The ship-to-ship battle WASN’T SHOWN.

The battle sequence unfolds as follows: Archer in the brig is told that Xindi are approaching. After some time we see two Xindi ships firing at Enterprise nacelles (four shots). Then Mayewather announces that Enterprise is dropping out of Warp. Then Enterprise starts to defend weakly agains Xindi, and lead Xindi fires once more. We cut imidiately to the brig, which shakes because of that shot. Then for 18 seconds there's no shakes at all, which means that Xindi weren't shooting at the Enterprise. And then they fire once more and Reed announces that Xindi are going to board the ship.
So basically, we are able to see about 20 seconds of battle and we know for sure that Enterprise wasn't being fired upon for 18 seconds when we didn't see the battle.

There's definetly a Janeway Maneuver in use - Enterprise waited until it dropped out of warp to open fire.

And, once again, if we know that Enterprise wasn't fired upon for 18 seconds and there was absolutely no indication of lost power, then how come that Xindi were able to dock with the Enterprise?

Luigi Novi: One has nothing to do with the other. First of all, each individually asserted nit must be argued individually. The fact that I see one possible nit in one scene does mean that another possible nit brought up by someone else in another scene is valid.

You misunderstood me: The fact that you see possible nit and I think it is not nit at all means that I too can see one possible nit and you can disagree with me

I have shown above that Enterprise indeed didn't fire for several seconds when it was in perfect position to do so (being at warp).

So I feel justified in stating that neccesary defensive measures were not taken.

Luigi Novi: Because they don’t know where to go for the information they want on the Xindi.

They obviously want to contact them, that's why they wanted to know the location of Xindi homeworld. Now they have Xindi starcharts and they has got to be at least one planet in those starcharts that is marked as being under control of Xindi.

Luigi Novi: But that doesn’t mean they know which ones would lead to information on the Xindi Council.

Is that a problem? Find any Xindi planet, explain situation, be directed to Xindi council, etc...

Luigi Novi: No, I am not using “later behavior to explain earlier actions,” I’m applying common sense and rational thinking instead of wildly improbable or counterintuitive reasoning in pointing out that Rajiin ran up to Archer, and pleaded, “Take me with you please!”.

And I'm applying commons sense when pointing out that Archer stole Raijin from the point of Zjod view and Zjod should be looking for ways to recover his "property" if he really was "well respected and succesful" slave trader.

Luigi Novi: And Starfleet/The Federation is committed to providing asylum to those escaping slavery because they have made a deliberate policy of not RECOGNIZING such claims because they violate basic civil rights.

This doesn't mean that Archer can basically steal Raijin without any compensation. Any robbed man would like to have his property back. It's common sense, too. He doesn't even need law enforcement officers, if we are to assume that there's indeed no legal structure on the planet. Just hire some thugs, barge into B'rat shop, "convince" him to cooperate and wait until Earthlings return.

Granting asylum to someone fleeing slavery is both perfectly justified and perfectly consistent with established Earth/Federation views toward it.

But creating potentially hostile situation is not. Like I said, Archer handled it in the worst possible way.

Luigi Novi: No, it was choice. One that you didn’t care for aesthetically. That doesn’t make it an “error,” because such aesthetic things as storytelling choices are subjective. There are many instances I which important events occurred offscreen.

Like I have shown above, this wasn't any choice. We've seen half of the battle, and the other half seemed to be pretty uneventful, judging from the lack of Xindi return fire. It's both Janeway Maneuver nit, and poor storytelling complain.

Second, even if it was poor storytelling, that does not mean that these actions DIDN’T HAPPEN.

If Archer and Raijin were on other ship and were told that Enterprise is under attack and about to be boarded, then I would agree with you.

But we saw first half of the battle which I think proves my point of view, and second half proves that there wasn't any reason for Enterprise to allow Xindi ship to dock.

Luigi Novi: Your argument was that there was no damage because there was no scorch marks.

Partially. I argue that there was no damage because there was no indication of damage, verbal or other (like scorch marks).

Second, the Xindi were able to bring the Enterprise out of warp by firing on its nacelles, which means that the Enterprise was disabled, if only temporarily, while power was rerouted, or the warp field RE-ESTABLISHED.

And yet, Enterprise was able to maneuver, defend itself weakly, and give chase without any indication that they couldn't do it because of that rerouting thingy.

During this time, it is likely that the two Xindi ships were able to overpower the Enterprise, to board her.

By firing only two times (after Enterprise dropped out of warp) without any aftereffects?

Lastly, your statement that the Enterprise was able to “chase” the Xindi after they left is FALSE.

Hey, no need to go all capital on me
Mayweather definetly behaved like he believed that he could chase Xindi.

Luigi Novi: This doesn’t mean that damage shows up as scorch marks. The Mazarites brought the Enterprise out of warp in Fallen Hero. Same series. Same budget.

Yes, of course, but I also mention no verbal damage confirmation.

Luigi Novi: There are certain defensive measures that are not viable in certain situations for exactly that reason. Using phasers inside a seirillium nebula, for example, is not a good idea, as seen in Flashback(VOY).

But they were in open space...

And if I understand correctly, the Enterprise only has forward torpedoes. (I could be wrong here.)

They fired photonic torpedoes from aft lanucher located in that aft pod in The Expanse.
And they still have those normal torpedoes.

Luigi Novi: So now doing the right thing is a nit?
Well, in the case of ENT crew, it certainly is, since they had troubles with it before

Luigi Novi: Simplistic is more like it. Too bad you’re not in charge or finding Osama bin Laden or Mullah Omar.

Not entirely true analogy. Americans and, by extension, we, Poles, their allies, want to capture ibn Laden and put him in jail, but Enterprise supposedly wants to make peace with the Xindi, right? First alive Xindi they met they convinced to help them; surely, there must be other helpful Xindi (like humanoid member of the Council, for example).

Luigi Novi: But the Enterprise already went to the Xindi equivalent of Baghdad in the season premiere. They found zip.

Which is another nit in itself, since they didn't bothered to search planet remains for clues, but that's not important right now

Important thing is, how hard can be finding any Xindi planet and saying "Take me to your leader?"

Influx: BTW, are Kazeite and Luigi Novi the same person? ??? I know "sock puppets" are frequent features of other boards. Similar posting times and styles... just wondering.

Heh... If I'm Luigi, then I'm basically arguing with myself. How smart is that?

No, I assure that we are two different people. Sometimes we think alike, sometimes we disagree (like now )

Darth Sarcasm: But my remark about the cost was in response to your comment about showing us the special effects would increase the ratings.

Well, making a sf series that makes sense would increase the ratings, for start. Enterprise is not making much sense...

But you have not established that they didn't use the starcharts. Perhaps Enterprise went to those locations and didn't find anything of value.

This is getting us nowhere, I'm afraid... I say that perhaps they didn't visit any locations, and you say that perpahs they did visit those locations...

Sure, the writers cannot possibly show us everything (for example, we've actualy seen only aproximately 34 hours out of two years of Enterprise yourneys), but then again, would some captains starlog or something killed them?


As I asked before, what if it had been T'Pol or Hoshi forced into sex slavery... are you saying it would be irresponsible or immoral for Archer to intervene because, hey, Zjod was running a legitimate business?

If his business is legitimate, then he had every right to go and try to recover his property, using law or not. He didn't do that, so it should give our "heroes" clear sign that something is amiss...

We don't know that this is how this alien society views it. For all we know, Zjod can only legally sell the women for as long as they choose to be sold by him.

If that's the case, then why he objected to Raijin wanting to go with Archer?

They didn't show us Enterprise firing all torpedoes for the same reason they don't show us the crew having a meal each episode or the Captain going to the bathroom... because it wasn't necessary to the story.

I disagree. It was necessary to the story to show Enterprise defending and not holding back.

Would these things have made it more exciting? Perhaps. But it would have also drawn time away from the things they did want to tell us... about Rajiin and the Xindi boarding party.

They had time to show Enterprise being fired upon, dropping out of warp and firing back weakly. It could easily be replaced with the shots of Enterprise being fired upon while fighting back, dropping out of warp while fighting back, etc...

Um... yeah... a lot of good fending off boarders will be if you blow yourself up in the process.

It's those two words again... you'd be suprised how setting torpedoes to different yelds can be effective

Now you're back-pedaling. You said my explanation was "lame," not that you were surprised that they acted properly.

Considering previous exploits of our "intrepid" crew, it was lame explanation because it assumed that hey got smart out of sudden. Also I was joking a little, since in my next post I gave myself an anwer for that question.
It wasn't my intention to insult you, I assure you. And I apologize, if you felt insulted.

And again, for all we know, they did fly to those planets, but they didn't find anything of use.

I don't think there was enought time for that, actually... Tell you what, let's see more episodes and then we can see if they are using charts or not

Luigi Novi: She was Nuvian, not Nubian.

They shoulda used a name less similar to Nubian, or looked in the Trek encyclopedia for a suitable name already established.

Luigi Novi: She apparently did her thing on both Hoshi and T’Pol.

And no other women on board? Nobody got suspiciou?

roger: In the Xindi scenes, they should have had the subtitles...

Luigi Novi: They don’t need to, because they either have universal translators, or understand the other languages.

Okay, they "could" have; it would just be something interesting and different.

I wonder if the aquatic Xindi is purely CGI or an actor in a weird diving suit?


About the Xindi attack on Florida:
Luigi Novi: The indication was that it was a test.

They couldn't test it on any other planet, or a planet of pre-space primitives? It seems pretty lame to me.

The Xindi would want info on the humans' allies just in case the allies attack, and the Xindi might want to do pre-emptive strikes against allies. Or not. It just seems so arbitrary.

roger: Archer asks if it was a surgical enhancement, and Phlox snarls, "If you can call it an enhancement." He delivered that line just perfectly! It was a fabulous moment.
Luigi Novi: Archer never said any such thing. It was Phlox who said he was enhanced, and then added the line “…if you can call it an enhancement.”

Sparrow said that.

I say that perhaps they didn't visit any locations, and you say that perpahs they did visit those locations... - Kazeite

No. It's more like I'm saying perhaps they visited those locations, and you're saying they definitely didn't. Big difference.


If that's the case, then why he objected to Raijin wanting to go with Archer? - Kazeite

Because Zjod recognized the potential loss of revenue if Rajiin became a "free agent."


I don't think there was enought time for that, actually... - Kazeite

This is the problem... you keep going by what you "think" and not what was actually stated in the episodes. I don't think any time interval has been stated between episodes since the six weeks mentioned in The Xindi. So it could be days, weeks or months between episodes, for all we know.

Luigi Novi: The fact that the weapon in The Expanse was conventional was pretty much the point of the nit. If the “other option” was the conventional weapon, why did they keep referring to it so ambiguously?

The Council started the episode by discussing a weapon similar to the first one. The designer said he needed more time to come up with something to destroy a planet. That's when the other "option" was brought up, but they didn't have enough information on the humans to do it and didn't say what it was. This was in the teaser. Then later, it's revealed to the audience that the other option is a bioweapon and that they are now closer to using it because of Rajiin's information (and presumably close to giving up on the conventional weapon because of the time involved).

Okay, I reviewed it again, and I think I got it. Thanks.

Kazeite: Huh? I thought he was trying to contact Xindi, not to find that weapon he knows is unfinished.
Luigi Novi: The fact that he knows it’s unfinished at the time of The Expanse means he knows that it’s unfinished by the time of this episode? Do you understand the meaning of the word “chronology”?

Kazeite: But any Xindi planet would suffice if Archer really wants to make contact with Xindi. Find any Xindi, explain situation, be directed to Xindi council, etc...
Luigi Novi: There’s much we do not know about the Xindi. Perhaps the homeworld is the only one where large amounts of Xindi live. Even if Archer finds Xindi on other planets, we don’t know if they’d be inclined to direct them to the Council.

Kazeite: Maybe because they had to pass that area in order to go to the B'rat shop?
Luigi Novi: Sure, maybe they had to, but since they don’t encounter Zjod again when delivering the spices, one might gather that they didn’t.

Kazeite: The battle sequence unfolds as follows: Archer in the brig is told that Xindi are approaching. After some time we see two Xindi ships firing at Enterprise nacelles (four shots). Then Mayewather announces that Enterprise is dropping out of Warp. Then Enterprise starts to defend weakly agains Xindi, and lead Xindi fires once more. We cut imidiately to the brig, which shakes because of that shot. Then for 18 seconds there's no shakes at all, which means that Xindi weren't shooting at the Enterprise.
Luigi Novi: No, it does not mean that. That’s simply a premise of your own invention. It has never been established that a ship shakes every time it is fired upon. Soemtimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t. It could depend on what part of the ship takes the fire, whether that section has shields/polarized hull plating, to what degree the shields/polarization is operational, whether that section covers has sensitive equipment that causes the shaking when hit, etc.

Kazeite: And, once again, if we know that Enterprise wasn't fired upon for 18 seconds and there was absolutely no indication of lost power, then how come that Xindi were able to dock with the Enterprise?
Luigi Novi: Since we don’t know the Enterprise wasn’t fired upon, the question is moot.

Kazeite: You misunderstood me: The fact that you see possible nit and I think it is not nit at all means that I too can see one possible nit and you can disagree with me
Luigi Novi: No one’s debating that point, Kazeite.

Kazeite: I have shown above that Enterprise indeed didn't fire for several seconds when it was in perfect position to do so (being at warp).
Luigi Novi: No, you haven’t. You’ve assumed it didn’t. Assuming this is not the same thing as establishing it.

Luigi Novi: No, I am not using “later behavior to explain earlier actions,” I’m applying common sense and rational thinking instead of wildly improbable or counterintuitive reasoning in pointing out that Rajiin ran up to Archer, and pleaded, “Take me with you please!”.

Kazeite: And I'm applying commons sense when pointing out that Archer stole Raijin from the point of Zjod view and Zjod should be looking for ways to recover his "property" if he really was "well respected and succesful" slave trader.
Luigi Novi: That has nothing to do with the above quote. You are now trying to mix up the statements of yours to which I made certain responses, and falsely pair them with other statements. The above quote of mine is in response to your ridiculous statement that for all Archer knew, Rajiin may have been exhibiting some bizarre mating ritual. This was a specious bit of reasoning, and I answered it above.

The issue of Archer taking Rajiin with him was the general point, but the response by me above was to the specific statement about this “ritual.”

Kazeite: This doesn't mean that Archer can basically steal Raijin without any compensation.
Luigi Novi: He didn’t steal her. A sentient being cannot be “stolen,” because all sentient beings have the right to be free, a point that Earth/the Federation recognizes. Hence, she wasn’t property, even if Zjod thought she was, and Archer didn’t “steal” her, he freed her.

Luigi Novi: Granting asylum to someone fleeing slavery is both perfectly justified and perfectly consistent with established Earth/Federation views toward it.

Kazeite: But creating potentially hostile situation is not. Like I said, Archer handled it in the worst possible way.
Luigi Novi: To each his own. I think he did the right thing. He’s not obligated to coddle a slaveowner, he might’ve known from B’Rat that there was no law enforcement on the planet, and for all he knew, perhaps the slaves were too expensive for him to pay for her.

Kazeite: Like I have shown above, this wasn't any choice. We've seen half of the battle, and the other half seemed to be pretty uneventful, judging from the lack of Xindi return fire.
Luigi Novi: You did not establish that there wasn’t any return fire.

Luigi Novi: Second, even if it was poor storytelling, that does not mean that these actions DIDN’T HAPPEN.

Kazeite: If Archer and Raijin were on other ship and were told that Enterprise is under attack and about to be boarded, then I would agree with you.
Luigi Novi: I’m afraid that I don’t understand what you mean by this. We can assume that the Enterprise attempted to evade boarding for as long as was possible, since nothing indicates otherwise. What does being on the other ship have to do with this?

Kazeite: But we saw first half of the battle which I think proves my point of view, and second half proves that there wasn't any reason for Enterprise to allow Xindi ship to dock.
Luigi Novi: The second half of what? We didn’t see enough of the battle after the Enterprise came out of warp.

Luigi Novi: Your argument was that there was no damage because there was no scorch marks.

Kazeite: Partially. I argue that there was no damage because there was no indication of damage, verbal or other (like scorch marks).
Luigi Novi: The fact that they were brought out of warp means that their ability to go to warp was neutralized, at least temporarily. The fact that they were boarded is precisely what may indicate that the Enterprise’s maneuvering ability and/or weapons (and in general, its ability to evade boarding) were disabled after it came out of warp and the scene cut to the brig.

Kazeite: And yet, Enterprise was able to maneuver, defend itself weakly, and give chase without any indication that they couldn't do it because of that rerouting thingy.
Luigi Novi: No, it was not. We saw exactly six seconds of it after it came out of warp, and five seconds as it just began to give “chase.” In those few seconds, we saw little or no “maneuvering.” Didn’ t you watch the episode? Didn’t you read when I said this earlier?

Kazeite: By firing only two times (after Enterprise dropped out of warp) without any aftereffects?
Luigi Novi: We don’t know it fired only two times.

Luigi Novi: Lastly, your statement that the Enterprise was able to “chase” the Xindi after they left is FALSE.

Kazeite: Hey, no need to go all capital on me Mayweather definetly behaved like he believed that he could chase Xindi.
Luigi Novi: Because by then, it’s possible that Engineering was able to reestablish the warp field. But you didn’t say anything about how Travis “behaved.” You said the Enterprise was able to chase after them. We don’t know this, because they never got a chance.

Luigi Novi: This doesn’t mean that damage shows up as scorch marks. The Mazarites brought the Enterprise out of warp in Fallen Hero. Same series. Same budget.

Kazeite: Yes, of course, but I also mention no verbal damage confirmation.
Luigi Novi: First of all, you didn’t say verbal in your original post. If you want to bring up another line of argument, that’s fine, but the quote by me above is directed at the comment about scorch marks. That statement by you regarding scorch marks is just plain untrue. That point should be resolved separately from any new one that you bring up.

As for “verbal damage,” the fact that the Mazarites were able to bring the Enterprise out of warp is what indicates that there was some damage to their warp drive, or their ability to create a warp field. During the boarding sequence, we didn’t see the bridge, so we wouldn’t hear any verbal notation of damage anyway, a point you conveniently ignore.

Luigi Novi: There are certain defensive measures that are not viable in certain situations for exactly that reason. Using phasers inside a sirillium nebula, for example, is not a good idea, as seen in Flashback(VOY).

Kazeite: But they were in open space...
Luigi Novi: Sigh. I’m not talking about the Enterprise, Kazeite. I made a general statement about certain measures not being viable in certain situations, and used the one in Flashback(VOY) as an EXAMPLE. In this episode, it’s possible that the Xindi ships got too close, weren’t in sight of the torpedo launchers, disabled the launchers, disabled the targeted sensors, disabled primary power, etc.

Kazeite: They fired photonic torpedoes from aft lanucher located in that aft pod in The Expanse. And they still have those normal torpedoes.
Luigi Novi: Thanks.

Luigi Novi: So now doing the right thing is a nit?

Kazeite: Well, in the case of ENT crew, it certainly is, since they had troubles with it before
Luigi Novi: That’s bull. When they do something that isn’t smart, it’s a nit. To say that doing something that is right and smart is also a nit is trying to have it both ways, and I’m not buying it. When they do something inexplicable, dumb, or incompetent, the nit should be made in that instance. Not when they show correct behavior.

Luigi Novi: Simplistic is more like it. Too bad you’re not in charge or finding Osama bin Laden or Mullah Omar.

Kazeite: Not entirely true analogy. Americans and, by extension, we, Poles, their allies, want to capture ibn Laden and put him in jail, but Enterprise supposedly wants to make peace with the Xindi, right?
Luigi Novi: The analogy I made was one of a search. We’re searching for Osama, Saddam Hussein, and Mullah Omar, but it’s not as easy as it looks. Similarly, the Enterprise is looking for the Xindi Council, but it’s not easy.

Luigi Novi: But the Enterprise already went to the Xindi equivalent of Baghdad in the season premiere. They found zip.

Which is another nit in itself, since they didn't bothered to search planet remains for clues, but that's not important right now
Luigi Novi: So the way to avoid the fact that I pointed out that they did what you claimed they didn’t is to simply dismiss it by saying it’s “not important right now”? Okay. I get it.

Kazeite: Important thing is, how hard can be finding any Xindi planet and saying "Take me to your leader?"
Luigi Novi: About as hard, I’d imagine, as finding some Baathists, or Taliban, or Al Qaeda, and saying the same thing to them.

Darth Sarcasm: But you have not established that they didn't use the starcharts. Perhaps Enterprise went to those locations and didn't find anything of value.

Kazeite: This is getting us nowhere, I'm afraid... I say that perhaps they didn't visit any locations, and you say that perpahs they did visit those locations...
Luigi Novi: Perhaps it’s the language thing again, but you didn’t say “perhaps.” Your assertions were clearly phrased in terms of established certainty. You said, “If his mission is to defuse this whole situation and if he was looking for the Xindi homoeworld, shouldn't he go to the coordinates of first planet Xindi were on, according to their database?”, a phrasing that clearly implies that he did not do these things. When you want to establish a nit, the burden of evidence and reasoning is on you. If there are situational circumstances that easily provide other possibilities, it is you who has to eliminate them. You have not done this with the notion of Archer’s search for the Xindi, or the Enterprise’s battle with the two Xindi ships. Instead, you’re relying on assumption.

Kazeite: Sure, the writers cannot possibly show us everything (for example, we've actualy seen only aproximately 34 hours out of two years of Enterprise yourneys), but then again, would some captains starlog or something killed them?
Luigi Novi: ????? Killed what? What do you mean? And what do you mean 34? This was the 54th episode of the series.

Darth Sarcasm: As I asked before, what if it had been T'Pol or Hoshi forced into sex slavery... are you saying it would be irresponsible or immoral for Archer to intervene because, hey, Zjod was running a legitimate business?

Kazeite: If his business is legitimate, then he had every right to go and try to recover his property, using law or not. He didn't do that, so it should give our "heroes" clear sign that something is amiss...
Luigi Novi: What part of “Starfleet does not recognize slavery as legitimate” are you not getting? His business isn’t legitimate, because slavery is not recognized as such. Thus, Rajiin was not his property, regardless of whether Zjod thinks she is. If she says she isn’t his property, and doesn’t want to be, who are you to say that his assertion that he is is valid? How can it be, if, as you say, he is “using law or not”?

Say you’re living in West Africa in the 1700’s when slavery was legal. A friend of yours is kidnapped by some guys and sold to a European slavetrader whose ship is docked. You free him. Is it wrong of you to do so? After all, slavery is legal.

And again, why do you keep evading Darth’s question? This is the second time you’ve done this, even though you’ve now quoted it above your response to it. Again, would this reasoning of yours hold true if it were T’Pol or Hoshi held as sex slaves?

Darth Sarcasm: They didn't show us Enterprise firing all torpedoes for the same reason they don't show us the crew having a meal each episode or the Captain going to the bathroom... because it wasn't necessary to the story.

Kazeite: I disagree. It was necessary to the story to show Enterprise defending and not holding back.
Luigi Novi: The fact that they didn’t show this doesn’ t mean it didn’t happen, particularly if we’re intelligent enough to gather that they did. For my part, I am.

Kazeite: They had time to show Enterprise being fired upon, dropping out of warp and firing back weakly. It could easily be replaced with the shots of Enterprise being fired upon while fighting back, dropping out of warp while fighting back, etc...
Luigi Novi: What’s “weak” is subjective, but I do think that the one thing they could’ve done was fire photonic torpedoes at the Xindi ships before being brought out of warp. (Can photonic torpedoes be used at warp?)

Kazeite: Considering previous exploits of our "intrepid" crew, it was lame explanation because it assumed that hey got smart out of sudden.
Luigi Novi: No, it assumes that that’s how he’s supposed to act, and it is when he doesn’t that you make a nit.

roger: And no other women on board?
Luigi Novi: I dunno. Maybe she did.

roger: I wonder if the aquatic Xindi is purely CGI or an actor in a weird diving suit?
Luigi Novi: Both the Aquatic Xindi and the Insect Xindi are entirely CGI.

roger: They couldn't test it on any other planet, or a planet of pre-space primitives? It seems pretty lame to me.
Luigi Novi: Yes, some of us already mentioned this under nits for The Expanse.

Luigi Novi: Archer never said any such thing. It was Phlox who said he was enhanced, and then added the line “…if you can call it an enhancement.”

roger: Sparrow said that.
Luigi Novi: Oops! Sorry!

Luigi Novi: The fact that he knows it’s unfinished at the time of The Expanse means he knows that it’s unfinished by the time of this episode? Do you understand the meaning of the word “chronology”?

Why, yes I do.

Luigi Novi: There’s much we do not know about the Xindi. Perhaps the homeworld is the only one where large amounts of Xindi live. Even if Archer finds Xindi on other planets, we don’t know if they’d be inclined to direct them to the Council.

Why not? Like I said, first alive Xindi they met helped them as much as he could. (this is kinda weird, actually, that he didn't knew that his homeworld was destroyed one hundred years ago. But this is not the scope of our discussion, either. And when I'm saying that, it means that it is only my own observation which I want to share with you. It doesn't mean that I'm evading discussion).

Luigi Novi: Sure, maybe they had to, but since they don’t encounter Zjod again when delivering the spices, one might gather that they didn’t.

So, didn't it struck them as suspicious, that there was no repercussion of their action?

Luigi Novi: No, it does not mean that. That’s simply a premise of your own invention. It has never been established that a ship shakes every time it is fired upon.

Yes it was. Some Rabid Warsies (fanatical Star Wars fans, who absolutely insist that Star Wars is superior to the Star Trek in every possible was, and that one Star Destroyer could conquer entire Federation, if you were unfamiliar with that term) like to claim that since in one TNG episode Enterprise-D shook when fired upon by very weak weapon it proves that its shield are weak.

Regardless of the shield strength, the fact that E-D shakes even under weak fire rather strongly suggest that Trek ships will shake when fired upon. And besides, when Xindi fired on nacelles we could see that it causes shakes on the bridge. With the distance between middle of nacelles and bridge I don't think that there could be any location on Enterprise that would not shake when under fire.

Luigi Novi: No one’s debating that point, Kazeite.

I'm glad that we agree this time

The above quote of mine is in response to your ridiculous statement that for all Archer knew, Rajiin may have been exhibiting some bizarre mating ritual. This was a specious bit of reasoning, and I answered it above.

And I responed by pointing out that because Raijin thanked him later, it explains that he was right earlier?

Luigi Novi: He didn’t steal her. A sentient being cannot be “stolen,”

Not according to the Fed... Earth law, of course, but according to the water planet law, he stole her.

Starfleet officers are certainly requied to rescure slaves if they want their help, but it doesn't mean he can break alien laws, doesn't it?

Luigi Novi: To each his own. I think he did the right thing. He’s not obligated to coddle a slaveowner, he might’ve known from B’Rat that there was no law enforcement on the planet, and for all he knew, perhaps the slaves were too expensive for him to pay for her.

So he was so convinced that Raijin is too expensive that he didn't even ask for price?

Luigi Novi: I’m afraid that I don’t understand what you mean by this. We can assume that the Enterprise attempted to evade boarding for as long as was possible, since nothing indicates otherwise. What does being on the other ship have to do with this?

I'll attempt to explain - bridge of Enterprise shook when nacelle was hit, which proves that with the distance between the two entire ship will shake when fired upon. The same applies to the brig.

Therefore, since there was no shaking during those 18 seconds then unless Archer and Raijin were on other ship it means that Enterprise wasn't hit during that time.

Luigi Novi: The second half of what? We didn’t see enough of the battle after the Enterprise came out of warp.

By saying 'first half' I refer to the 20 seconds time while Enterprise was forced out of warp ending with cut to the brig.

By saying 'second half' I refer to the 18 seconds time when Archer was confering with Raijin (instead of hauling his lower spine to the bridge) ending with last Xindi shot and Reed reporting boarding maneuvers.

Luigi Novi: The fact that they were brought out of warp means that their ability to go to warp was neutralized, at least temporarily.

No argument here.

The fact that they were boarded is precisely what may indicate that the Enterprise’s maneuvering ability and/or weapons (and in general, its ability to evade boarding) were disabled after it came out of warp and the scene cut to the brig.

Despite the lack of evidence proving that assertion?

Luigi Novi: No, it was not.

Yes, it... sigh.

Now this is starting to get rather childish... Most obviously we are not going to reach agreement this time, and my ego is not big enough to warrant keeping this debate.

So, in the spirit of cooperations I concede my points. I value your person too much to try to force my viewpoint upon you.

Luigi Novi: ????? Killed what? What do you mean? And what do you mean 34? This was the 54th episode of the series.

I mean that it would not be hard to indicate some general search by explaining it in the captain's starlog.

And yes, it was 54th episode of the series. Every episode lasts aproximately 40 minutes, not counting opening and closing credits, commercials, etc. 40 * 2 * 26 (two seasons) equals aproximately 34 full hours.

according to the water planet law, he stole her. - Kazeite

No, according to Zjod, Archer was stealing her. Unless there was an episode I missed in which the intricacies of "water planet" law were addressed, we don't know how this alien civilization treated Zjod's "slave trade." For all we know, Rajiin and the other women are expected to work for Zjod freely, but Zjod (like many pimps, even those who work in places where prostitution is legal -- like Vegas) doesn't allow them to leave his employ in disregard to "water planet" law. You simply have not shown with any factual evidence that Zjod was running a completely legitimate business. For all we know, Zjod isn't allowed to force the women into his employ, in which case his seeking authorities to help him would be impossible.


Despite the lack of evidence proving that assertion? - Kazeite

He didn't say it was an assertion, he said it "indicated" it. You are the one thinking that lack of evidence is proof of your assertions. Luigi and I are merely pointing out there are other possibilities that are just as (if not more) likely.

By your reasoning, I can argue that you are a one-fingered human/Horta hybrid with no nostrils and a nipple in the center of your forehead. Because, after all, you have not shown me any evidence that contradicts that.

I was just talking with my good friend Luigi Novi, and he thinks I should post this little thought I had.

Rajiin was sent to scan the humans on the Enterprise in order to collect data for a Bio weapon capable of killing them.

Rajiin was unaware that quite recently, several crewmen had been infected by a DNA-altering virus, one that was still affecting at least one of them (Archer).

Rajiin scanned Archer and T'pol(not human, so probably disregarded) and possibly Hoshi. The guard she took the gun from later was likely not scanned because she was in a rush.

Rajiin's information is flawed. Her scans are of monkey-lizard-virus-infected humans, thus the Bio weapon will likely not be as effective, or effective at all, against normal humans.

I thought this was pretty easy to catch. . . but I seem to be the only one who did. Perhaps its jsut because we arent used to there actually being these sorts of things for us to spot in modern Trek.

In any case. . . thoughts? Comments?

- Meep -

Well, it had been noticed in some other Trek message boards. It was figured that was the reason the events of the previous episode were mentioned.

Was it established that Enterprise crew members were killed during the Xindi boarding fights? If so, how many?

Not to mention that the Vulcan that she scanned had also been affected by said virus.

Darth Sarcasm: No, according to Zjod, Archer was stealing her. Unless there was an episode I missed in which the intricacies of "water planet" law were addressed, we don't know how this alien civilization treated Zjod's "slave trade."

Yes, we know. We saw Zjod with several woman, offering to sell them, in open, without any distress. Therefore, "for all we know", it is allowed. There's no need to stack up elaborate "maybes" and "perhaps" on top of that.

Sure, Archer did the right thing in our point of view, but if this episode is any indication, he broke alien law.

He didn't say it was an assertion, he said it "indicated" it. You are the one thinking that lack of evidence is proof of your assertions.

Um, nope. There's no lack of evidence. I genuinely cannot recall any scene that indicated that given vessel can be under fire and remain still, and since we see shaking bridge after nacelle hit, that means that brig had to shake as well. If Anomaly is any indication, Enterprise still had warp power (not to be confused with warp capability), judging by glowing nacelles.
(small digression: this thing (dark nacelles) I actually liked, despite the fact that it contradics nacelle glow portrayed in TNG, for example, "Peak Performance". See? I can find some positives in Enterprise! )

Now, where was I... Oh. Analogically, Enterprise was able to maneuver and use weapons, so it obviously means that that capabilities were not disabled.

By your reasoning, I can argue that you are a one-fingered human/Horta hybrid with no nostrils and a nipple in the center of your forehead. Because, after all, you have not shown me any evidence that contradicts that.

Doh! Busted!

Richie, this board is up to 180k.

Luigi Novi: The fact that they were boarded is precisely what may indicate that the Enterprise’s maneuvering ability and/or weapons (and in general, its ability to evade boarding) were disabled after it came out of warp and the scene cut to the brig.

Kazeite: Despite the lack of evidence proving that assertion?
Luigi Novi: I didn’t make an assertion. You did. Therefore, it is you who has to provide evidence for it. You haven’t. You’ve provided assumptions, which you’ve substituted for it.

When the Enterprise or Defiant or Voyager or DS9 is attacked, naturally, it defends itself. It is supposed to do this, and generally does. Because this is the normal course of events, and is therefore what we expect them to do, we can presume that that is what happens, all things being equal. How do we know that after Lt. Ro betrayed the Enterprise at the end of Preemptive Strike(TNG), that Picard and Riker, embarrassed over being taken by her, didn’t write a false report in which they stated that Ro was killed, or something? After all, there is no evidence that they didn’t right? And we didn’t see Picard file a legitimate report with Starfleet Command, right? Simple. We assume they did, because all things being equal, that’s what he would do. Only when evidence pops up in an episode or movie that they do not do such things, do we make a nit. Evidence that Troi didn’t know what a warp core breach did pop up in Disaster(TNG). Evidence that Worf didn’t know that Romulan Ale was outlawed in the Federation did pop up in ST Nemesis.

If evidence shows that all things are not equal, and that it did not happen, that’s a nit. But you have to provide that evidence. I don’t have to provide evidence that they defended themselves but were nonetheless overpowered, because we give them the benefit of the doubt by assuming that as the normal course of events that usually occurs during a story. A ship defending itself is the ordinary course of events. If one has an extraordinary claim, then the burden of proof is on them.

Kazeite: So, didn't it struck them as suspicious, that there was no repercussion of their action?
Luigi Novi: If B’Rat told them at the deuterium station that there wasn’t much in the way of law enforcement (which isn’t hard to believe if some guys is selling slaves there), then perhaps that’s why they weren’t worried about it.

Luigi Novi: No, it does not mean that. That’s simply a premise of your own invention. It has never been established that a ship shakes every time it is fired upon.

Kazeite Yes it was. Some Rabid Warsies (fanatical Star Wars fans, who absolutely insist that Star Wars is superior to the Star Trek in every possible was, and that one Star Destroyer could conquer entire Federation, if you were unfamiliar with that term) like to claim that since in one TNG episode Enterprise-D shook when fired upon by very weak weapon it proves that its shield are weak.
Luigi Novi: We’re not talking about Star Wars, nor the superiority of Star Wars to Star Trek, nor about whether shields are weak, nor does it matter what “some rabid warsies” claim. Claims made by fans (of either of the two franchise) are not canonical. I said that it has never been established that a ship shakes every time it is fired upon, and that statement is correct. What does what some fan or another “like to claim” have to do with it? How do you figure that “yes it was” simply because of what a fan claims? What does whether shields are “weak” have to do with whether they shake every time they’re hit? You’re changing the subject.

Kazeite Regardless of the shield strength, the fact that E-D shakes even under weak fire rather strongly suggest that Trek ships will shake when fired upon.
Luigi Novi: It has not been established that the Enterprise-D shakes under weak fire, nor have you even bothered trying. You have not cited any episode, nor the evidence that indicates that the weapons fire in question was “weak.” In addition, what is “weak” is not only subjective in itself, but may change from era to era. Weapons fire that is “weak” in the 2260’s may not be in the 2150’s. None of these things were established in an episode or movie. You’re simply making them up, substituting supposition and assumption for fact.

Kazeite: And besides, when Xindi fired on nacelles we could see that it causes shakes on the bridge.
Luigi Novi: You’re again ignoring what was said before. We don’t know if whether the ship shakes when fired upon is determined by what part of the ship is fired upon, whether that part has hull polarization/shielding, the strength of the shielding at that point in time, whether it covers some energy-sensitive part of the ship, the energy output of the enemy weapon fired, etc. Hence “when Xindi fired on nacelles we could see that it causes shakes on the bridge” does not prove that the ship shakes every time it’s fired upon, by any weapon, of any yield, on any point on its hull.

Luigi Novi: The above quote of mine is in response to your ridiculous statement that for all Archer knew, Rajiin may have been exhibiting some bizarre mating ritual. This was a specious bit of reasoning, and I answered it above.

Kazeite: And I responed by pointing out that because Raijin thanked him later, it explains that he was right earlier?
Luigi Novi: What does that have to do with using the general argument over Archer’s actions to respond to the specific point of the mating ritual? Why are you changing the subject? Again, you are mixing up the individual exchanges, and are now referring to an earlier exchange than the one we’re discussing now. Is it that difficult for you to keep track of the manner in which the different exchanges here digress?

Since you seem to have so much trouble with this, let’s review:

Darth Sarcasm pointed out in his 10.2.03 10:38 am post that Archer didn't interfere until Rajiin approached him and asked for help.

You responded in your 10.2.03 03:18 pm post with two statements. Your first was to ask how was Archer supposed to know whether it's for example some exotic mating ritual between Raijin and her "owner"? Your second was to add, “Also he handled this thing in worst possible way.”

Now here’s where it becomes necessary to understand that although I did disagree with your general argument about Archer’s behavior, my next response wasn’t with the second statement, but the first, the one about the “mating ritual.”

I responded in my 10.2.03 11:29 pm post by pointing out that Archer simply did what he asked her to do. I pointed out that she asked him to please take her with him, and he did so. I added that at no time during his rescue of her or after it did she indicate that she was really just doing some mating ritual all along. The bottom line was, Archer acted on her desire to be taken to the Enterprise, which was evidenced by her request to that effect. By contrast, this theory of this “mating ritual” was not evidenced at all.

You responded in your 10.3.03 05:24 am post by accusing me of “using her later behaviour to explain her earlier actions,” arguing that Archer didn't know that Raijin will be thanking him later. You also reiterated your secondary statement “And besides, like I said, he handled it very poorly, choosing violence before commerce.”

So far, we were still talking about the whole “mating ritual” point, and I was handling the “commerce” argument separately.

I responded in my 10.3.03 11:20 am post by asserting that I wasn’t using “later behavior to explain earlier actions,” because Archer was simply granting the request Rajiin made on the surface. My point in talking about her later thanking him was to establish there was no “mating ritual,” but just because she thanked him later doesn’t mean he had nothing to go on on the surface. After all, when she said, “Please, take me with you!,” was Archer supposed to translate this as “I’m doing a mating ritual”? I pointed out that to argue Archer should’ve taken this statement as a wildly different one for which there was no evidence was a ridiculously obtuse assertion by you, period.

You, in your 10.3.03 2:33pm post, changed the subject entirely, now totally running away from this whole “mating ritual” point, you jumped onto a separate sub-argument of the Archer Freeing Rajiin argument, talking again about how Archer stole Rajiin, and Zjod would be looking to recover his property if he was a “respected” slave trader (whatever that is).

I responded in my on 10.3.03 07:28 pm post that this had nothing to do with the quote above it in which I responded to your statement that for all Archer knew, Rajiin may have been exhibiting some bizarre mating ritual. I pointed out that you were now trying to mix up the statements of yours to which I made certain responses, and falsely pair them with other statements, and clarified that the above quote was about your statement that for all Archer knew, Rajiin may have been exhibiting some bizarre mating ritual.

You, in your 10.4.03 1:24pm post, rather than responding to that refutation by me, instead responded by simply repeating the earlier 10.3.03 05:24 post of yours, again saying thatyou responded by pointing out that because Raijin thanked him later, it didn’t mean that he was right earlier.

Again, you were totally EVADING the fact that I had REFUTED that argument about the mating ritual, and were now evading a SECOND point, the fact that you had retreated from that refutation by focusing on different point of the matter.

The “mating ritual” theory is a SEPARATE point. You can’t argue one sub-point or sub-argument by cross-pollinating it with another. If you want to argue this “mating ritual” point, then do so. Don’t run away from it after I successfully refute it by substituting another portion of the argument, because I’m not fooled by this tactic.

So I’ll say it again:
The idea that for all Archer knew, Rajiin was engaging in a mating ritual, is a fallacious argument. He can only go by the most obvious evidence in front of him, and respond to how others behave. Rajiin behaved as if she wanted him to take her with him, and is precisely what she pleaded with him to do. Therefore, it was logical for Archer to conclude that she wanted him to take her with him. It is not logical for him to conclude that she was engaged in some mating ritual. All this occurred on the PLANET, not on the ship afterwards. The fact that she never broke character afterwards, continued to thank him and gave no indication that her initial request was not in fact what she wanted is NOT what he based his decision to take her with him on, but merely REINFORCED the conclusion that that’s what she wanted, and refutes your idea that it was some mating ritual.

If you believe this is a valid argument that refutes the “mating ritual” theory, then admit it. If you still think the “mating ritual” line of argument is valid, explain why my refutation of it doesn’t work. If, however, you admit that that “mating ritual” theory is wrong, but you still want to continue to argue that Archer was still wrong with a different line of argument, you are more than entitled to do so. But don’t continue to respond to my refutation of your “mating ritual” theory by citing other, unrelated lines of argument to the general issue of whether he was wrong. Stay on topic.

Luigi Novi: He didn’t steal her. A sentient being cannot be “stolen,”

Kazeite: Not according to the Fed... Earth law, of course, but according to the water planet law, he stole her.
Luigi Novi: I don’t’ know what you mean by “water planet,” but we don’t know if there is any law on that planet, and even if there is, Archer is not obligated to recognize it.

Kazeite: Starfleet officers are certainly requied to rescure slaves if they want their help, but it doesn't mean he can break alien laws, doesn't it?
Luigi Novi: If they’re laws that are not consistent with basic civil rights of sentient beings, yes, they most certainly can. Every time they grant political asylum to Romulan or Cardassian dissident, they’re breaking the laws of those worlds.

Luigi Novi: The fact that they were brought out of warp means that their ability to go to warp was neutralized, at least temporarily.

Kazeite: No argument here.
Luigi Novi: That means they may have suffered some form of damage.

Kazeite: The fact that they were boarded is precisely what may indicate that the Enterprise’s maneuvering ability and/or weapons (and in general, its ability to evade boarding) were disabled after it came out of warp and the scene cut to the brig.

Kazeite: Despite the lack of evidence proving that assertion?
Luigi Novi: I just told you the possible evidence. The fact that they were boarded means we can give them the benefit of the doubt that they were unable to prevent it.

Kazeite: And yes, it was 54th episode of the series. Every episode lasts aproximately 40 minutes, not counting opening and closing credits, commercials, etc. 40 * 2 * 26 (two seasons) equals aproximately 34 full hours.
Luigi Novi: Ah. I see.

RE: Anon’s Theory about Rajiin and the Loque’eque mutagenic virus:

Well, I didn’t think of it, and I compliment you, Anon (and the others that Rene mentioned did), on noticing it. Still, it would’ve been nice seeing you use either your real name or AIMname in posting, but hey, maybe next time.

The Man from Space: Was it established that Enterprise crew members were killed during the Xindi boarding fights? If so, how many?
Luigi Novi: No mention was made of it. Given how Fuller’s death was emphasized in Anomaly, I’d imagine it would be if they were.

Darth Sarcasm: No, according to Zjod, Archer was stealing her. Unless there was an episode I missed in which the intricacies of "water planet" law were addressed, we don't know how this alien civilization treated Zjod's "slave trade."

Kazeite: Yes, we know. We saw Zjod with several woman, offering to sell them, in open, without any distress. Therefore, "for all we know", it is allowed.
Luigi Novi: And for all we know, there isn’t any law at all on the planet, which is how he is able to do this. The fact that he is selling these women out in the open does not equal “Yes, we know.” Again, you are assuming that one fact on the other hand automatically leads to a factual conclusion on the other. It is just as equally possible that he is able to do this because there is no law enforcement at all. How is it that you can invent this threadbare this given = that assumption = that fact conclusions, and then say that others are stacking up elaborate “maybes” and “perhaps,” when it is you who are confusing assumption with fact?

Darth Sarcasm: He didn't say it was an assertion, he said it "indicated" it. You are the one thinking that lack of evidence is proof of your assertions.

Kazeite: Um, nope. There's no lack of evidence. I genuinely cannot recall any scene that indicated that given vessel can be under fire and remain still…
Luigi Novi: We’re not saying that. Is it you who are saying the opposite. It is you who inventing a premise that has not been established based solely on an assumption, an assumption that has not been proven. Are you saying that if some throws rocks at it, or fires a machine gun at it, that it will shake then?

Kazeite: and since we see shaking bridge after nacelle hit, that means that brig had to shake as well.
Luigi Novi: But we don’t know if it will shake under all circumstances. How do we know that the reason the ship shook was because the nacelles are very sensitive? Think about it: The nacelles are one of largest parts of the ship. They have plasma running through them that gets their internal temperature up to 300 degrees. They’re connected to the warp core, and they generate an enormous amount of energy to bend the fabric of spacetime. How do we know, therefore, that the reason it shook was because the Xindi fired on that part of the ship? Doesn’t it logical to allow for the possibility that any device that bends the fabric of space will cause the ship to shake when fired upon? Do we know that the whole ship would shake if they Xindi fired on that little aft module on that catamaran section that connects the two nacelle struts? And how do we know that it shook because the Xindi weapons fire was at a particularly high yield? Or because the Enterprise’s hull polarization fell to a certain level, like say, 80%, or 75%?

We don’t.

Therefore, the notion that a ship always shakes when fired upon, regardless of what type of weapons fire is used, what the yield of that weapons fire is, what part of the ship is fired upon, and the strength of the ship’s shields or hull polarization, has not been proven. Is it possible? Sure. But has it been proven? No. Is not the suggestion that whether it shakes depends on some of these other factors just as equally possible? Yes. In order to use a scene in which a fired-upon ship shakes to conclude that a ship always shakes when fired upon, you have to first eliminate the other possibilities that may indicate otherwise. So far, you haven’t.

Kazeite: Now, where was I... Oh. Analogically, Enterprise was able to maneuver and use weapons, so it obviously means that that capabilities were not disabled.
Luigi Novi: We don’t know to what degree Enterprise was able to maneuver or use weapons because the scene then cut to the brig. Since the Enterprise was boarded, why is so difficult to allow the possibility that other systems were damaged (either when they were attacked and brought out of warp, or afterwards during the brig scene), and that the two Xindi ships were simply able to overpower it? What if the Xindi used grapplers? Or tractor beams?

I don't know if it was intentional or not, but the two humanoid Xindi races seemed upset that bio data was retrieved. During the opening they were even trying to tell the others that the "accident" will put them months behind. Could the humanoid Xindi be trying to delay the attack? Maybe they don't really want to go along with the destroy Earth plan?

Rajiin has the power to control someone with a touch. Why didn't she use it when Archer was grabbing her in the brig?

Because there was a guard outside, I'd say.

Anon, that is quite an interesting theory about the bioweapon. I imagine I didn't think of it because I have been trying so hard to forget Extinction. Also, I think many Trek viewers have been made numb by instant cures to fantastical diseases that have no further repercussions.

OK, now, let's try something else. First, look what I'm going to do:

Why alien merchant who tries to sell Archer Xanthan marmots in Act 1 have an Earth Indian accent? Because UT translated it that way.

Why are Enterprise crew only now meeting at B'rat shop to obtain formula? Maybe because B’Rat didnot have the formula with him at Norellus.

Why doesn’t Reed help Archer when he tussles with Zjod in Act 1? He helped him, for example by stepping over Zjod weapons.

Archer tells Phlox to set up Rajiin in quarters because maybe there are guest quarters now following the The Xindi refit, and maybe because he trusts Phlox to call quartermaster.

Why is Archer omitting 'Triaxa' part of Phlox planet? Maybe because he's referring to the system, not planet.

Should the transporter really be out in the open in a corridor where a visitor can just stroll by it, as Rajiin does in Act 2? Why not?

Archer risks coming into close contact with Rajiin in the brig because he thinks he can resist her 'charms' now.

Why weren't Archer on the bridge? Maybe because he trusted whoever was in charge up there to do his job and he perhaps felt that obtaining more information from Raijin was more important.

Why Travis described means of the Xindi escape as some kind of vortex, despite visual shape? Maybe because his description has nothing to do with its visual shape.


What have I just done? I typed possible explanations of Luigi's nits.

So, why is he arguing against my nits?

Luigi, You seem to be determined to prove that my nits are no nits at all.
Once again, I'm fully aware of the fact one could explain everything using more or less retarded rhetoric, but, really...

If you can assemble the list of things that you don't like about this particular episode, then I can do it as well.

It's as simple as that. This whole discussion was totally unnecessary. Are we here to discuss about episode and it's possible flaws, or to make up explanations about those flaws?