Kazeite: Why alien merchant who tries to sell Archer Xanthan marmots in Act 1 have an Earth Indian accent? Because UT translated it that way.
Luigi Novi: LOL. Why would the UT give an Indian accent to an alien?

Kazeite: Why are Enterprise crew only now meeting at B'rat shop to obtain formula? Maybe because B’Rat didnot have the formula with him at Norellus.
Luigi Novi: Certainly possible. I believe I suggested that myself. But I wonder why they didn’t mention it, since the question would seem to come up. It would’ve made more sense to me if the Enterprise crew met someone else on Norellus, and he referred them to B’Rat.

Kazeite: Why doesn’t Reed help Archer when he tussles with Zjod in Act 1? He helped him, for example by stepping over Zjod weapons.
Luigi Novi: True, but why didn’t he follow them into that other room where they dragged each other, and only showed up at the doorway about twelve seconds later, after Zjod had gotten some good punches in at Archer? Why didn’t Reed stun Zjod during any of that, when he had a clear shot at him? And why didn’t he stun him when Zjod reaches for his weapon? Instead, Archer had to pick him up, wrap some fabric around his throat, and flip him through a small window/vent.

Kazeite: Archer tells Phlox to set up Rajiin in quarters because maybe there are guest quarters now following the The Xindi refit, and maybe because he trusts Phlox to call quartermaster.
Luigi Novi: Good theory. I put oyur theory in my Nitpick Document, and credited it to you.

Kazeite: Why is Archer omitting 'Triaxa' part of Phlox planet? Maybe because he's referring to the system, not planet.
Luigi Novi: Possibly. But don’t they usually say “system” when referring to it?

Kazeite: Should the transporter really be out in the open in a corridor where a visitor can just stroll by it, as Rajiin does in Act 2? Why not?
Luigi Novi: It’s a piece of sensitive equipment, that can be used as a weapon. While I’d assume it should have a lockout code, the same should hold true for the phase cannons or torpedo launchers, but I wouldn’t make those accessible to guests either.

Kazeite: Archer risks coming into close contact with Rajiin in the brig because he thinks he can resist her 'charms' now.
Luigi Novi: It still isn’t smart. He doesn’t even know what the exact nature of her “charms” are.

Kazeite: Why weren't Archer on the bridge? Maybe because he trusted whoever was in charge up there to do his job and he perhaps felt that obtaining more information from Raijin was more important.
Luigi Novi: If the Enterprise is engaged in a battle, the captain belongs on the bridge, period. Interrogations are a lower priority. What does “trust” have to do with it? He doesn’t know if the enemy he faces is more powerful than he, so “trust” has nothing to do with it. The leader belongs on the bridge, where he can direct the defense of his ship. What point would “information” be if his ship is crippled or destroyed, and members of his crew killed?

Moreover, I question whether you yourself believe this. Why, after all did you comment earlier, “By saying 'second half' I refer to the 18 seconds time when Archer was confering with Raijin (instead of hauling his lower spine to the bridge) ending with last Xindi shot and Reed reporting boarding maneuvers.” in your Oct. 4 1:24 pm post?

Kazeite: Why Travis described means of the Xindi escape as some kind of vortex, despite visual shape? Maybe because his description has nothing to do with its visual shape.
Luigi Novi: If the word “vortex” does not pertain to the shape, then what does it pertain to?

Kazeite: What have I just done? I typed possible explanations of Luigi's nits.
Luigi Novi: Three of which have some level of argumentative validity, five of which are logically irrational in their reasoning.

Kazeite: Luigi, You seem to be determined to prove that my nits are no nits at all.
Luigi Novi: Not really. I am merely responding to the incoherent reasoning with which you try to prove them. Saying “This has been established because a fan claimed it” is not a valid argument. Pretending that one possible scenario out of several has evidence for it when it doesn’t, and then retorting that the other possible ones that others bring up has no evidence for it is specious. When you point out a nit with solid reasoning, I will say so. I have several of your nits in my Nitpick Document already, which I credited to you, and I just included the one about the refit in it too.

Kazeite: If you can assemble the list of things that you don't like about this particular episode, then I can do it as well.
Luigi Novi: Again, you bring up an irrelevant point. The fact that I list nits does not make yours valid, nor is anyone calling into question whether you “can” bring them up. The fact that you bring them up doesn’t make them valid.

Kazeite: It's as simple as that. This whole discussion was totally unnecessary. Are we here to discuss about episode and it's possible flaws, or to make up explanations about those flaws?
Luigi Novi: First of all, we are here to discuss nits, and possible explanations of them. Since you’ve been here for some time, you should know this by now.

Second, I will say it again: you did not establish some of those “flaws.” You simply invented them. It was you who “made up” those so-called nits, not I who “made up” the explanations. All I did was point out that your reasoning for them was flawed. If you say that something is a nit because a certain premise was established when a Star Wars fan “claimed” it, and I point out that premises are not established by an arbitrary claim by a fan, it is you who are “making up” a fictional nit, and I who am simply pointing it out.

Kazeite --

Don't take things so personally. Luigi has probably disputed everyone's nits and arguments at one time or another. I don't know how long you've been here, but he and I got into some lengthy ones much more heated than this one not even a year ago... it got to the point where He-Who-Does-Not-Like-Me dumped perfectly legitimate posts just to end the debate.

Two things I'll remark on in regards to your latest post:

1. You are the one stating that your speculations are the end-all-and-be-all possibility. We, on the other hand, are offering alternate scenarios that are (to our minds, at least) more likely and logical.

For example, I am perfectly willing to accept that sometimes things happen off-screen. And that lack of evidence only means you can't disprove something -- you can't offer something that does not exist as proof of anything.

2. Using terms like "retarded reasoning," which only serve to insult a poster (I don't buy the "I'm insulting the post, not the poster argument") is not constructive and a borderline personal attack. I refuse to be embroiled in any more such debates.

When Luigi describes your reasoning as "faulty," he has offered evidence to support that contention. The only thing you've offered that our arguments are "retarded" is the fact that we simply do not agree with you, which makes it personal.

Again, I ask you...

Archer comes down to the planet and sees Hoshi (who recently disappeared on an Away Mission) standing amongst Zjod's slave women. They make eye contact, but he does nothing at that moment but walk away. Suddenly, in another part of the market, Hoshi runs after him. "Captain, please... take me back to the ship!" Clearly, Hoshi doesn't want to be with Zjod. So you're arguing that Archer is forced to buy her, simply because you think that's the law on this planet!?!

So the slaves aboard Amistad should have been executed becaue, after all, the slave traders were running a "legitimate business." And hey, while we're at it, we should never have gotten involved in what Germany was doing to its Jewish citizens during WW2.

Darth Sarcasm: Don't take things so personally.

I don't. I'm calm now

Honestly, I was mildly annoyed with Luigi, but now I realize that I don't have to convince him about anything.

1. You are the one stating that your speculations are the end-all-and-be-all possibility.

Sigh... Yeah, I know. I was just getting pissed off, but I'm and reasonable now

I'll try to reiterate my problems with this episode:

I have problem with Archer taking Raijin. In my opinion he broke alien law. It is possible that he didn't do it, but I, myself, have problem with that - I don't think it's plausible.

I have problem with sloppy Enterprise response to the Xindi threat. This time I see no rational explanation why it allowed herself to be dropped out of warp without firing back.

Also, I'm fairly sure that Xindi indeed did not fired at Enterprise for the 18 seconds.

First of all, like I said, Enterprise-D shook when hit by weak disruptor fire (and, incidentally, I realize that we’re not talking about Star Wars, nor the superiority of Star Wars to Star Trek, nor about whether shields are weak, nor does it matter what “some rabid warsies” claim. I was just explaining background of that information.)
It is not a claim or assertion. It's a fact. A fact that cannot be dismissed by saying "it has not been established that the Enterprise-D shakes under weak fire, nor have you even bothered trying."
Now, I am indeed unable to pinpoint exact episode, but I trust person who provided that information.

But, Luigi, if you want another episode evidence, here you are: VOY, 6th season, "Collective" - Borg Cube fires on different components on Voyager, and every hit can be felt by the bridge personell.

Like I said, seriously, I can't recall any episode that features lack-of-shaking under fire. When all previous episodes prove that ship under fire shakes, I simply can't accept claim that "we don’t know if it will shake under all circumstances" without any proof.

Luigi, you seem to be under impression that certain parts of ship can shake when fired upon, but other areas of the same ship will remain stable. How is that possible? Is Enterprise made of rubber or something?
Moreover, it is you who ignores evidence - as proved time and again in previous episodes, hull polarization/shielding has nothing to do with shaking of lack of it.

Next... I have problem with Archer being an smart-ass suddenly and jamming communications. I mean, it's not like he behaved in mature fashion before... That's why his sensible and smart behaviour suprised me.
Oh sure, it's possible that he really got smart all of sudden (must be the effect of that mutation ), but... I just don't like it. I didn't liked Janeway changing her modus operandi from one episode to another, and I don't like Archer doing that either.

I have problem with Mayweather allowing Xindi to dock so easily. Since I can't say that I am convinced by seriousness of space battle sequence in that episode I find fact that Xindi were able to dock to Enterprise so quickly very unlikely.

Luigi, it doesn't matter whether my "rebuttal" of your nits is valid or it's irrational. I typed those to show you that there are possible anwers. You showed me possible answers to my nits.

Maybe I was... no, scratch that - I certainly was too arrogant and too proud to admit that in the first place. I was trying to prove my points and leave no room for speculation...

But I've been thinking about it and now I admit that my nits can be explained. I'm simply not fully convinced by that explanations

And you know what, Luigi? I agree with your every nit. Really.

Darth Sarcasm: 2. Using terms like "retarded reasoning," which only serve to insult a poster is not constructive and a borderline personal attack.

But you see, I was refering to my argument - the one about mating ritual. It certainly seems kinda retarded, doesn't it?

Darth Sarcasm: Again, I ask you...

Archer comes down to the planet and sees Hoshi (who recently disappeared on an Away Mission) standing amongst Zjod's slave women.

Now you see, this is different situation. Archer knows who Hoshi is. But he doesn't know anything about Raijin.
Certainly, I'm not saying that selling people as slaves is right. It's certainly wrong and should be punished. But in my opinion merchants on water planet (the planet where Enterprise crew got Raijin) doesn't seem to mind slave trader next to them.
We complain because Archer sometimes doesn't do sensible things (like going to the bridge in this very episode). I personally complain about them not being able to get suspicious regarding lack of Zjod response.
I have problem with that because I expected it to be explained, because it once again in my opinion shows how dumb Enterprise crew is.

I have problem with Archer taking Raijin. In my opinion he broke alien law. - Kazeite

But see, we don't know that Archer broke alien law. Even if we ignore his right to grant asylum to any being who requests it (in disregard for alien law), which we have seen countless times in all Trek series, we don't know what the laws were on this planet or how they were enforced in the marketplace. Perhaps Zjod merely "pimped" his slaves, much like happens in Las Vegas. And as happens with prostitution, perhaps the slaves worked for him willingly (or were at least supposed to). If this is the case, then Archer broke nothing because he stole nothing. We simply don't have enough information from which to base a definitive conclusion.


Also, I'm fairly sure that Xindi indeed did not fired at Enterprise for the 18 seconds. - Kazeite

I still don't understand why the Xindi not firing on Enterprise means Enterprise couldn't have been firing back? And really, even if you accept that the ship always shakes when struck by enemy fire, all this really means is that Enterprise wasn't hit during those 18 seconds, not that the Xindi weren't firing. They were trying to reclaim Rajiin to obtain the intel she gathered, so destroying Enterprise wouldn't have been smart on their parts. So couldn't the Xindi have been firing around Enterprise in order to guide it into a position that would make their boarding easier?


Luigi, you seem to be under impression that certain parts of ship can shake when fired upon, but other areas of the same ship will remain stable. How is that possible? Is Enterprise made of rubber or something? - Kazeite

Simple physics. Shockwaves and reverberations do not travel infinitely. An earthquake in Mexico is not felt in New York, and the Earth is not made of rubber, either. I live in California, and I can tell you there are times where an earthquake is felt in one part of a building, and not at all in another. It depends on the magnitude of the quake. Similarly, I doubt that a weak weapons strike will reverberate identically through different areas of the ship, particularly when the areas are also influenced by individual grav-platings and inertial dampeners.


Next... I have problem with Archer being an smart-ass suddenly and jamming communications. - Kazeite

Maybe the MACOs reviewed his protocols sometimes in the intervening months while traveling to the Expanse and advised him to change his protocols.

In any case, have we ever seen anyone infiltrate the ship and attempt to contact another vessel from inside Enterprise before? Because if not, then how can it be a nit?


I have problem with Mayweather allowing Xindi to dock so easily. Since I can't say that I am convinced by seriousness of space battle sequence in that episode I find fact that Xindi were able to dock to Enterprise so quickly very unlikely. - Kazeite

And there is nothing to indicate that the attack/boarding sequence occurs in real-time. We may only count 18 seconds, but perhaps it was more like 18 minutes. Remember, good storytelling often streamlines events. When the Death Star approaches the Yavin moon in the original Star Wars, we're told it will be in firing range in 30 minutes. The X-Wing sequence is far shorter than those 30 minutes.

So perhaps it took longer. And perhaps in that time, Mayweather evaded Xindi fire (which is why the ship didn't shake -- because it wasn't struck). But it turned out the Xindi were merely diverting Enterprise's attention so they can board. We simply don't have enough information to go on.


Now you see, this is different situation. Archer knows who Hoshi is. But he doesn't know anything about Raijin. - Kazeite

I don't understand the difference.

Archer didn't get involved in freeing Rajiin until she approached him and asked. Again, asylum is something well within his rights as a Starfleet captain (as we've seen countless times in all Trek series). Archer didn't go back and attempt to free the other women... he freed the one woman who asked for his help. Was it a violation of alien law? Perhaps. But perhaps the fact that the authorities didn't get involved merely reinforced Archer's belief that Zjod was running a shady operation.

Happens all the time in real life. Why should the fictional Trek world be different?


But in my opinion merchants on water planet (the planet where Enterprise crew got Raijin) doesn't seem to mind slave trader next to them. - Kazeite

You must have neevr watched The Sopranos...

You've never heard of legitimate businesses who "look the other way" when another, unscrupulous business has opened next door? Perhaps they didn't mind so much because Zjod's business attracted more customers to their stores. And while they may not have minded, I certainly didn't see any of the other merchants jump in to help Zjod, either, when Archer fought him... shouldn't that reinforce Archer's belief that he did the right thing... or are you suggesting that they were all in on the Rajiin conspiracy that you think the Enteprise crew should have picked up on?

I do like you Darth.

Darth Sarcasm: So the slaves aboard Amistad should have been executed becaue, after all, the slave traders were running a "legitimate business."
Luigi Novi: Not that I don’t agree with your argument, but the example isn’t perfect, because by 1839, when the Amistad revolt occurred, the transatlantic transportation of slaves was already outlawed. It was only legal at that point to own slaves that were already on U.S. soil or born on it.

Kazeite: I have problem with Archer taking Raijin. In my opinion he broke alien law. It is possible that he didn't do it, but I, myself, have problem with that - I don't think it's plausible.
Luigi Novi: Ok. Would you care to explain why?

Three possible scenarios exist:

1. There is a strictly enforced legal code on the planet, and slavetrading is protected.

2. There is a legal code on the planet, and slavery is illegal, but the law often looks the other way.

3. There is not much of a legal code on the planet at all.

Now, can you provide evidence or an argument that clearly gives greater weight to the idea that Scenario #1 is the correct one? So far, you haven’t. You have simply arbitrarily picked that one, and said, “That’s my opinion,” and left it at that, and responded to those who point this out by saying that it is they who are “making up” explanations.

Kazeite: I have problem with sloppy Enterprise response to the Xindi threat. This time I see no rational explanation why it allowed herself to be dropped out of warp without firing back.
Luigi Novi: But you haven’t established that it did “allow” itself to drop out of warp. There were two Xindi ships against the one Enterprise. We know that the Enterprise was outnumbered. Why can’t you allow for the possibility that the Xindi ships might have been able to match or even overtake the Enterprise’s top speed, and if had weapons that were either more powerful, or even just powerful enough to disable it when firing on its nacelles?

Kazeite: Also, I'm fairly sure that Xindi indeed did not fired at Enterprise for the 18 seconds.
Luigi Novi: All you’re doing is repeating your earlier arguments, and ignoring what Darth and I pointed out to refute it.

Kazeite: First of all, like I said, Enterprise-D shook when hit by weak disruptor fire. It is not a claim or assertion. It's a fact. A fact that cannot be dismissed by saying "it has not been established that the Enterprise-D shakes under weak fire, nor have you even bothered trying."
Luigi Novi: Wrong.

It can most certainly be dismissed in that manner, precisely because you have not established it by either citing the episode or the dialogue therein that referred to the weapons fire in that manner. When you do so, then it may be considered a “fact.”

Kazeite: Now, I am indeed unable to pinpoint exact episode, but I trust person who provided that information.
Luigi Novi: Which means it’s not a fact. It is a claim, and one that you yourself are only relating from a third party, the details of which neither of you are able to provide. Perhaps this is the language thing again, but you are basically saying that this is a “fact” because someone else we don’t know who isn’t here and cannot name either the episode or describe the dialogue claimed it.

Sorry, but that’s not what a “fact” is. It’s an assertion. One that might be correct, but which for now cannot be confirmed.

Kazeite: But, Luigi, if you want another episode evidence, here you are: VOY, 6th season, "Collective" - Borg Cube fires on different components on Voyager, and every hit can be felt by the bridge personell.
Luigi Novi: Good point. They did go for the warp core, then the impulse engines, and then the sensors. And shields were holding. Then again, given the power of Borg weapons, I’m not surprised that the ship shook. Would this also happen with Xindi weapons? And if they fired upon a non-sensitive area? And as Darth pointed out, it’s possible that the Xindi were trying to maneuver the Enterprise into position to board her.

Kazeite: Like I said, seriously, I can't recall any episode that features lack-of-shaking under fire. When all previous episodes prove that ship under fire shakes, I simply can't accept claim that "we don’t know if it will shake under all circumstances" without any proof.
Luigi Novi: All previous episodes don’t prove this. We only know that the ship shakes when fired upon, but not always, not by weak weapons fire, or when the shields are at full strength, or when hit on any part of the ship.

Kazeite: Luigi, you seem to be under impression that certain parts of ship can shake when fired upon, but other areas of the same ship will remain stable.
Luigi Novi: I am under the impression that this is one possible scenario. Yours is just as equally possible. Neither, however, have been proven to be the case.

Kazeite: How is that possible? Is Enterprise made of rubber or something? Moreover, it is you who ignores evidence - as proved time and again in previous episodes, hull polarization/shielding has nothing to do with shaking of lack of it.
Luigi Novi: We don’t know that. Again, you are simply assuming it.

Kazeite: Next... I have problem with Archer being an smart-ass suddenly and jamming communications.
Luigi Novi: I can understand if this is an area where you are simply having an aesthetic response to the story that stems from your inherent emotional reaction. Personally, given Archer’s experiences with just about everyone in the Expanse, not to mention Keyla in Two Days and Two Nights, it is not so surprising to me see him learning.

Kazeite: I have problem with Mayweather allowing Xindi to dock so easily. Since I can't say that I am convinced by seriousness of space battle sequence in that episode I find fact that Xindi were able to dock to Enterprise so quickly very unlikely.
Luigi Novi: We don’t know that they docked that easily, and Darth provided a good theory on that as well. (And like him, I too wondered if there was time gap.)

Kazeite: Luigi, it doesn't matter whether my "rebuttal" of your nits is valid or it's irrational. I typed those to show you that there are possible anwers. You showed me possible answers to my nits.
Luigi Novi: If anything, that seems to be a lesson that you yourself have difficulty learning, Kazeite.

Kazeite: But I've been thinking about it and now I admit that my nits can be explained. I'm simply not fully convinced by that explanations
Luigi Novi: ????? Forgive me, but it doesn’t seem like that from everything you just wrote above. It seems you’ve just repeated all of your earlier arguments.

And you still haven’t answered Darth’s hypothetical about the slavery, or, for that matter, mine.

Kazeite: And you know what, Luigi? I agree with your every nit. Really.
Luigi Novi: Actually, I think your theory about the refit at Earth was perfectly solid, and as I said before, I put it in my Nitpick Document after that nit, and credited it to you.

Darth Sarcasm: So couldn't the Xindi have been firing around Enterprise in order to guide it into a position that would make their boarding easier?
Luigi Novi: Another possibility.

Richie Vest: I do like you Darth.
Luigi Novi: Me too.

Darth Sarcasm: But see, we don't know that Archer broke alien law.

I know that. I simply think that he broke it. This is my opinion.

I still don't understand why the Xindi not firing on Enterprise means Enterprise couldn't have been firing back?

It means that in my opinion their boarding actions were unconvincing.

Darth Sarcasm: And really, even if you accept that the ship always shakes when struck by enemy fire, all this really means is that Enterprise wasn't hit during those 18 seconds, not that the Xindi weren't firing.

Why, yes, of course. So in my opinion fact that Xindi were able to dock to Enterprise seems rather unbelieveable.

Darth Sarcasm: Simple physics. Shockwaves and reverberations do not travel infinitely.

Well, sure, but I don't think that reverberations from, for example, one side of the saucer will dissipate before they get to the other side of the saucer. Especially when we have vessel as small as NX-01.

If you recall, starfleet ships are very stiff. We saw many examples of starfleet shuttles crashing down at significant speed and retaining their shape without any visible damage, and even sometimes being able to take off after simple repairs.

And there is nothing to indicate that the attack/boarding sequence occurs in real-time.

Unlikely. And that enlarges the previous problems even more.

I don't understand the difference.

Archer knows that when Hoshi begs him to take her with him, she means it. When Raijin asks him to take her with him, he can only assume, that she means it.

You must have neevr watched The Sopranos...

As a matter of fact, I haven't, but I heard it's the great series

You've never heard of legitimate businesses who "look the other way" when another, unscrupulous business has opened next door?

And that's the problem. If Zjod was really so unscrupulous, she should do everyting he can to get his "merchandise" back.

or are you suggesting that they were all in on the Rajiin conspiracy that you think the Enteprise crew should have picked up on?

This is rather interesting question, even if it was intended to be only rhetorical
It is possible that B'rat was in Raijin conspiracy - he was the one who told them about Zjod. On the other hand, he sold them Trillium-D recipe...

...waitaminute... What if this recipe is fake?

Luigi Novi: Ok. Would you care to explain why?

Because I think that if Raijin was only a courtesan, Zjod should do everything he can to get her back. Every your scenario permits that, either by
1. going to the local authorities,
2. and 3. Hiring some thugs and having little "chat" with B'rat.

Either scenario will do. I am not limiting myself to the "local law" scenario.

Luigi Novi: But you haven’t established that it did “allow” itself to drop out of warp.

I didn't. Episode did. When I see Enterprise being fired upon by two Xindi vessels and dropping out of warp without firing back, what am I suppose to think?

Luigi Novi: All you’re doing is repeating your earlier arguments, and ignoring what Darth and I pointed out to refute it.

Um, what am I ignoring? I'm poiting out several facts and you respond by saying "it was not estabilished..."

Luigi Novi: Wrong.

Yes it is. I didn't make it up. It happened, even though as of right now I am unable to give episode name.
By analogy, Abraham Lincoln was shot, but I can't give specific details either. Does it mean that Lincoln is still alive?

Luigi Novi:Then again, given the power of Borg weapons, I’m not surprised that the ship shook. Would this also happen with Xindi weapons?

Taking into consideration strength of known Xindi hits and small size of NX-01, I would say yes.

Luigi Novi: All previous episodes don’t prove this.

Yes, all previous episodes prove this. In previous episodes, when vessel is hit, it shakes. Why are you claiming otherwise?

Luigi Novi: We don’t know that. Again, you are simply assuming it.

Maybe because it is what happens when vessel is hit?

Luigi Novi: I can understand if this is an area where you are simply having an aesthetic response to the story that stems from your inherent emotional reaction.

Yes, it is my personal aesthetic response.

Luigi Novi: We don’t know that they docked that easily, and Darth provided a good theory on that as well. (And like him, I too wondered if there was time gap.)

I find it unlikely, given that there's simply no way they could snip, say, 30 seconds of conversation into 18 seconds clip.

Luigi Novi: If anything, that seems to be a lesson that you yourself have difficulty learning, Kazeite.

Not at all. Since the beginning I said that everything can be rationalized. I'm fully aware of that. Perhaps it is my fault that you think that I seem to be stuck to certain things and saying that "this is the only possible way it could've happened."...

Luigi Novi: ????? Forgive me, but it doesn’t seem like that from everything you just wrote above. It seems you’ve just repeated all of your earlier arguments.

Then you are mistaken. These are my nits, not yours. Everything has possible explanation.

Seriously, what do you want from me? To admit that I am completely mistaken? You can't ask me to do that.
Or to admit that my nits can be explained? I admited that long ago.

And you still haven’t answered Darth’s hypothetical about the slavery, or, for that matter, mine.

What question? About Hoshi?

Richie Vest: I do like you Darth.
Luigi Novi: Me too.
Me three

Aw... can we feel the love in the room now?

OK, upon further reflection, I believe it was inappropriate (and unfair) of me to bring up past issues on the board. The incident with Richie that I brought up occured a year ago or so (whenever it was, it was a long time ago), and since then he has done a more than fair job at allowing everyone to debate various topics, even when it probably frutrates him when we seem to just going around in circles. If I expect everyone to forget past incidents and focus on the board at hand, I should be expected to do the same.

It was unacceptable of me to refer to Richie by anything other than his name. And I apologize to him, and thank him for being mature enough to not bite the bait I unconsciously left out for him.

Peace.

This is how I see the discussion: Luigi tries to dismiss nits if a possible explanation for them is given. Kazeite will not dismiss the nit unless the other possibility is proven. In other words, Luigi gives the benefit of the doubt to the series' integrity, Kazeite gives it to the nit. So they see the burden of proof differently.
Also, I think Kazeite is confusing esthetic concerns with factual nits (either in his mind or just the way he writes). For instance, Archer suddenly getting smart and jamming communications. This could be a valid esthetic nit (even though I disagree with it) because he has made other mistakes. I don't see how it could possibly be a valid factual nit.

And that's the problem. If Zjod was really so unscrupulous, she should do everyting he can to get his "merchandise" back.

Another example: maybe Zjod was arrested; maybe he was too injured to do anything; maybe he was scared; maybe the other merchants told him not to do anything. There are several reasons why Archer wouldn't be surprised by the lack of retaliation. If these could reasonably have occurred to Archer, it's not a nit. A nit is only one possible way of explaining it.

Yes it is. I didn't make it up. It happened, even though as of right now I am unable to give episode name.
By analogy, Abraham Lincoln was shot, but I can't give specific details either. Does it mean that Lincoln is still alive?

What if someone claimed Lincoln was still alive, but didn't have any details? Is that valid? The burden of proof is on the person making the unusual claim.

And that's the problem. If Zjod was really so unscrupulous, she should do everyting he can to get his "merchandise" back.

Maybe Zjod was in on the Xindi plan.

Kazeite's belief is that not only was Zjod in on the Xindi plan (and I think he was, too) but that Archer should have been immediately suspicious because Zjod didn't retaliate or seek the help of the authorities or hire thugs or do anything to reclaim his property.

Luigi and I are arguing that there are a number of other possibilities that are just as likely (maybe Zjod was a shady character whose slave trading wasn't exactly up to code, maybe he was scared off by Archer, etc.). The main issue is that Kazeite seems to believe that his own interpretation is the only possible conclusion.

In the past, we have seen Starfleet officers and ships respond to situations like Archer's consistently... they get asked for help, and they help. Sometimes there are consequences, sometimes there aren't. But to say that Archer shouldn't have interfered when Rajiin asked for his help is ludicrous to me and inconsistent with what's been established about Starfleet culture in the past.

In past shows, when a Starfleet ship found a ship in distress, they responded by helping them. Sometimes the aliens were fleeing from oppressors. Sometimes it was a ruse. But all things being equal, the response has been: help them. In fact, the Kobayashi Maru no-win scenario is built around this very concept. Why should an individual asking for help be any different?

In any case, I find Kazeite's expectation that Archer should have been suspicious of Zjod on the surface as inconsistent to his surprise that Archer was wise enough to jam communications later.

Ah... I kind of skipped over the whole debate.

Nove Rockhoomer: This is how I see the discussion: Luigi tries to dismiss nits if a possible explanation for them is given. Kazeite will not dismiss the nit unless the other possibility is proven. In other words, Luigi gives the benefit of the doubt to the series' integrity, Kazeite gives it to the nit. So they see the burden of proof differently.

I think that's correct analysis. Indeed, since I do not like Enterprise very much, I'm not as forgiving as, say, with Voyager

Also, I think Kazeite is confusing esthetic concerns with factual nits.

Is there a difference? I mean, even Luigi sometimes posts some esthetic nits, so I can't see why can't I.

Another example: maybe Zjod was arrested; maybe he was too injured to do anything; maybe he was scared; maybe the other merchants told him not to do anything.

But these hypothetical events would be unknown to Archer. This falls into "I wonder why they didn’t mention it, since the question would seem to come up" category.

A nit is only one possible way of explaining it.

As I stated many times before, everything can be explained. Every nit is only one possible way of explaining something.

Darth Sarcasm: Kazeite's belief is that not only was Zjod in on the Xindi plan (and I think he was, too) but that Archer should have been immediately suspicious because Zjod didn't retaliate or seek the help of the authorities or hire thugs or do anything to reclaim his property.

Well, not immediately, but essentially, yes. I mean, he got so smart to jam communications, but it didn't occured to him to consider the fact that Zjod may retaliate somehow?

The main issue is that Kazeite seems to believe that his own interpretation is the only possible conclusion.

No. It is not my belief. For all we know Archer actually contacted authorities and then found out that Zjod stepped on the landmine or something.
I think that Luigi said it in the best way:
I wonder why they didn’t mention it, since the question would seem to come up.

In any case, I find Kazeite's expectation that Archer should have been suspicious of Zjod on the surface as inconsistent to his surprise that Archer was wise enough to jam communications later.

Yeah, those two nits kinda cancel each other.

Sparrow: I liked how they used spice to barter with the chemist. I mean, who would think to use spices? Nice touch.
:: And amusingly scpipted. (Wars have been fought over it; here, snort some; SURPRISE: IT’S PEPPER!)

Keith: Trellium D can only be synthesized as a liquid? Excuse me, but isn't liquid a phase of matter? You cool a liquid down it becomes a solid, you heat a liquid up it becomes a gas. Maybe if the dealer had said that the synthesized Trellium D has a lower melting point so that it's a liquid at room temperature it would have been more accurate.
:: I took it to mean that the SYNTHESIS had to occur in the liquid state (like steelmaking, for example). Once synthesized, it would assume the state appropriate for its surroundings.

Influx: I missed part of the middle due to a rare non-telemarketing phone call. (Unfortunately, it was the "naughty bits" part.)
:: Luigi will disagree, but you need a TIVO.

Sparrow: Oh, and speaking of Rajin, where did she get the clothes that she wore for most of the ep?
Luigi: The Enterprise crew gave them to her. Why is this a problem?
:: From one brief shot, she appeared to me to have a form fit over an “Anna Falchi” caboose. Haven’t seen one of those in the crew!

Kazeite: And how Archer knew to jam Raijin communications?
Darth: By this point, the crew was well-aware of Rajiin's duplicity. Jamming all transmissions coming from the ship is a perfectly sound, justified, and smart thing to do.
:: Wouldn’t that interfere with Enterprise’s ability to scan?

Trike: "Security detail" equals two people. Got it.
:: “Detail” simply means enough people for the task at hand. Could be one person; could be a company. Of course, when they call for help, they never specify how much. Usually “security to the bridge” or some such.
Which leads to:

Obi-Juan: Seriously, the B's need to get a military consultant for this show.
:: Thank you, Obi. I’m glad someone agrees with me. Getting tired of harping on that.

Keith: If a comet traveling much slower than Warp can supposedly wipe out a large number a species (Cretaceous Period) then a kamakaze spaceship at Warp can do a hell of a lot more damage.
Darth: Except a starship at warp doesn't exist in real space, and thus isn't moving that fast at all.
:: Thank you, Darth. I’m glad someone agrees with me. Getting tired of harping on that.

TUE: QUALITY WEAPON OF THE WEEK: That goop weapon that plastered itself to the wall and then shot out a hundred little things that killed the crewmembers was VERY cool. I want one.
:: Low-tech version free for the picking-up in Afghanistan.

Luigi: Personally, I think there should be stringent rules regarding gossip on the ship
J. Seinfeld: Oh, yeah, that’ll work.

Luigi Novi: Rajiin tells Archer in Act 4 that the weapon the Xindi are building is a bioweapon. But I thought the Xindi probe that attacked Earth in The Expanse, which used some type disintegrating energy blast, was a test version, which suggested to me that the main one was simply a larger version of the same type of weapon.
Dragon: Me too. But perhaps after that test, the Xindi decided to change their approach for a reason we don't know yet. Just speculating.
:: Or, they’re simultaneously building the prototype of the energy weapon for the initial, test attack on Earth, which hasn’t happened yet (although the destruction of the Xindi world, which the final attack on Earth was meant to prevent, has long-since happened). Just speculating with a headache.

ScottN: Ah... I kind of skipped over the whole debate.
:: OK, then here’s the bulk of it:
Luigi and Darth: It happened off camera . . .
Kazeite: Poor storytelling . . .

Luigi Novi: Rajiin tells Archer in Act 4 that the weapon the Xindi are building is a bioweapon. But I thought the Xindi probe that attacked Earth in The Expanse, which used some type disintegrating energy blast, was a test version, which suggested to me that the main one was simply a larger version of the same type of weapon.
Dragon: Me too. But perhaps after that test, the Xindi decided to change their approach for a reason we don't know yet. Just speculating.
:: Or, they’re simultaneously building the prototype of the energy weapon for the initial, test attack on Earth, which hasn’t happened yet (although the destruction of the Xindi world, which the final attack)

I read it as follows:

The probe was a test for the Big Honkin' Space Ray Gun™^*, which the Xindi scientist was building (too slowly for the reptiles and the insectoids). The bioweapon is the "other option" that they had, but didn't have enough info on humans for... hence Raijin.

^* -- Trademark owned by Col. Jack O'Neill

Assuming that they're in a linear time continuum (which I don't), you will been correct, sir.

The joke about aliens seeing common human spices as drugs is quite old: the most famous use is probably in Harry Turtledove's 'Worldwar' series, where the alien Race become addicted to ginger.
Trip is actually telling the truth when he said 'wars were fought over this'...however, they were in the 1400s and 1500s.

It was interesting to see the Xindi Council divided. However, I do wonder if the creators are pandering to popular prejudice by having the reptilians and insectoids as the most 'nasty' faction and the two mammalians as the 'nice' faction (yes, I know, they both want to destroy Earth, so nice and nasty are just relative, but you know what I mean... ). The Aquatic seems to act as a peacemaker (I will not make some comment about dolphins and whales...)

Although I think the Xindi idea is good, and original, I would have done it slightly differently - rather than two mammalian species (Humanoid and Sloth) I would have had a Humanoid and another 'strange' one, such as a Plant. I also might have had the Insectoid or Reptilian as being the more moderate one, just to break with popular prejudice re bugs and reptiles.

Nit: Reed says the 'smaller' Xindi ship is trying to dock, but the two ships are identical in size and design.

I too liked the crossovers with the previous episodes (reference to the Xindi database and Archer recovering from Extinction...though why only him, rather than also Reed and Hoshi? (Maybe only he was scratching!) See, there's something more or less unique to Enterprise of all the Trek series: you never saw LaForge recovering from being transformed in the episode after 'Identity Crisis', or similar, did you? As far as internal continuity is concerned, Enterprise is unmatched.

I wonder if the whole Xindi-attacking-Earth thing is actually a complex ploy on behalf of one of the Future Guys controlling the temporal cold war factions: make Earth more militaristic and suspicious, either to sabotage the alliance spirit of the Federation, or else to make Earth more ready for the Romulan War...it could be either.

See, there's something more or less unique to Enterprise of all the Trek series: you never saw LaForge recovering from being transformed in the episode after 'Identity Crisis', or similar, did you? As far as internal continuity is concerned, Enterprise is unmatched.

Notable exception (that proves the rule): Family(TNG)

Thande: I would have had a Humanoid and another 'strange' one, such as a Plant.
:: E.g., Richard Kelton as "Ficus" (TV series QUARK, 1978).

You know, TJFleming, I've been trying to remeber that show for YEARS, based on a half-remembered scene in an elevator. Thanks for mentioning the name

Ah, good times. But it always bothered me that the less cerebral copycat, "Salvage 1," was the greater commercial success (20 episodes).

Unless TPTB throw a really wacko sidewinder, it looks like this episode is a dead end: Rajiin has not appeared, nay even been mentioned, in Azati Prime through to E2 (no spoilers if she does show up again in the last 3 episodes, please).

Wouldn't Carpenter Street be a follow-up to Raijiin? And the mentions of the Reptilian/Insectoid bioweapon in the post-Azati Prime plotlines?

Very average episode. I liked the beginning, seeing an alien world with lots of different species, interesting characters like the chemist and the pimp. I also liked the ending. Those Reptilians are pretty tough. But the middle of the episode just dragged and dragged. And you knew there had to be something sinister about Rajiin. There always is.

When Archer is fighting the hooker dealer, doesn't it seem like Reed takes a while before trying to help? I would think he'd be at his captain's aid immediately.

Sparrow: Oh, and speaking of Rajin, where did she get the clothes that she wore for most of the ep?
Luigi: The Enterprise crew gave them to her. Why is this a problem?
They did say in Breaking the Ice I believe (whichever ep it was that the crew recorded a message for a class of students), that the resequencers could turn matter from their waste into boots. I would assume that they could do the same with other clothing.

Kazeite: OK, so Archer wants to know some informations about reptillian Xindi from the courtesans because?...
He's trying to find them. It's his mission.

KAM: The Xindi are storming the ship & I'm thinking, 'Shouldn't there be emergency bulkheads slamming down?'

Sparrow47: Well, I don't think we've ever seen that before in Trek, so I'm not going to fault this show for not having it. That would be a good idea, though.
I think the only Trek character to ever think of that was the O'Brien impostor in Whispers (DS9)

If a comet traveling much slower than Warp can supposedly wipe out a large number a species (Cretaceous Period) then a kamakaze spaceship at Warp can do a hell of a lot more damage. - KAM

Darth Sarcasm: Except a starship at warp doesn't exist in real space, and thus isn't moving that fast at all.
Then why did Riker order Crusher to prepare to ram the Borg cube at max warp in BOBW Pt. II(TNG)?

Luigi Novi: Okay, so why does the alien merchant who tries to sell Archer Xanthan marmots in Act 1 have an Earth Indian accent?
Why do most AOTW (like the chemist) have American accents?

Sparrow47: They, uh, never explained how Rajin got into T'Pol's quarters.
Luigi Novi: Because they know that we can gather from the fact that she’s an intelligence agent that she has training in such things as code breaking and lockpicking. They also know that we can gather from the fact that her body’s been enhanced to both scan and overpower others, that it may also have been enhanced with the ability to affect devices like locks.
It would have been nice to see this (or really, show her breaking into anything) rather than suddenly having her show up in T'Pol's quarters.

KAM If a comet traveling much slower than Warp can supposedly wipe out a large number a species (Cretaceous Period) then a kamakaze spaceship at Warp can do a hell of a lot more damage.

Darth Sarcasm: Except a starship at warp doesn't exist in real space, and thus isn't moving that fast at all.
Luigi Novi: Would impulse be enough?
I would imagine a large object slamming into a planet a 1/4 the speed of light would create some massive damage.

roger: Luigi Novi: She apparently did her thing on both Hoshi and T’Pol.

And no other women on board? Nobody got suspiciou?
It seemed that she only had time to do her thing to Archer, Hoshi, and T'Pol before Trip discovered her activities.

Anonymous: Rajiin was sent to scan the humans on the Enterprise in order to collect data for a Bio weapon capable of killing them.

Rajiin was unaware that quite recently, several crewmen had been infected by a DNA-altering virus, one that was still affecting at least one of them (Archer).

Rajiin scanned Archer and T'pol(not human, so probably disregarded) and possibly Hoshi. The guard she took the gun from later was likely not scanned because she was in a rush.

Rajiin's information is flawed. Her scans are of monkey-lizard-virus-infected humans, thus the Bio weapon will likely not be as effective, or effective at all, against normal humans.
I assume that Archer's and Hoshi's biology have probably reverted enough to their original state so that any biological weapon created by the Xindi would still be effective against completely normal humans.

TJFleming: ScottN: Ah... I kind of skipped over the whole debate.
:: OK, then here’s the bulk of it:
Luigi and Darth: It happened off camera . . .
Kazeite: Poor storytelling . . .
Thank you TJ, you rule.

Sparrow - Oh, and speaking of Rajin, where did she get the clothes that she wore for most of the ep?
Luigi - The Enterprise crew gave them to her. Why is this a problem?
Josh M - They did say in Breaking the Ice I believe (whichever ep it was that the crew recorded a message for a class of students), that the resequencers could turn matter from their waste into boots. I would assume that they could do the same with other clothing.
Person 1: Where did you get that outfit?
Person 2: Fecal Fashions.

Josh M, I believe Paris mentioned the possibility of bulkheads in Year Of Hell, Part II.

NANJAO: I've watched 1 DVD of season 3 so far and I'm STILL WAITING for a good episode.

Oh, well the good episode is in Season 4.

I don't know if anyone noted this, but is the alien pimp wearing Michael Dorn's Worf wig?

Ugh. Even though the posts were relevant, more than half of both boards are Qs & As of the same stuff.

"Nubia is in Africa, and none of the women looked African." Roger

I can recall at least two black women showing their stuff, one of which had a nice view from behind.

"So the female crewmembers can't resist her either? Will we see anything the least bit lesbian in this episode? I don't think so." Roger

Wow! Were you way off with that statement or what?

"A slavetrader cannot have a 'rightful' claim to own people, nor does Earth/the Federation recognize slavery as a right. His business isn’t legitimate, because slavery is not recognized as such." LN

I'm not looking to open old wounds here but they're not in Federation space so their laws don't apply. I agree with you, Archer did the right thing, and we don't know what the laws if any are there, but if she didn't run after Archer he couldn't just take her because Earth is against slavery. He is well within his rights to grant amnesty when asked, but not otherwise.

"But we know for sure that they now posses their starcharts." Kazeite

I don't recall that term being used on screen, and some of the information Enterprise obtained was the flightplan of that pirated Xindi ship, not starcharts. If I understand correctly, starcharts are basically maps, and maps usually have labels. So if NX-01 did have charts of the Expanse they would probably have a better idea where they were going.

>>>By roger on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 6:49 pm:
Why can't Trip and T'Pol do that massage stuff in Sickbay so nobody gets suspicious?<<<

T'Pol explains that the 'massage stuff' requires a degree of intimatcy. If there is one thing we should know about Vulcans by now it is that they dislike anything that smacks of intimatcy. T'Pol refusing to consider doing the 'massage stuff' in sickbay where any member of the crew could walk in at any moment is very much in keeping with Vulcans.

Besides, she's meant to be helping Trip relax. How relaxed would you be if scantally clad T'Pol gave you a massage while Phlox was looking on?

>>>By Sparrow47 on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 6:45 am:
The Xindi are storming the ship & I'm thinking, 'Shouldn't there be emergency bulkheads slamming down?'KAM

Well, I don't think we've ever seen that before in Trek, so I'm not going to fault this show for not having it. That would be a good idea, though.<<<

We have seem emergency bulkheads used to restrict an intruders progress around a ship in The Hunted (TNG). To the best of my knowledge this was the first and last time it was ever done.

>>>By Yasu on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 7:50 am:

It seems odd to me that the transporter is sitting in a hallway. I mean the access tube that Reed later thought Rajiin might have gone up has it's own room. <<<

Its worse than that. No only did someone decide to shove the transporter in the hallway but they picked a location 10 seconds run from the armory - In the Shipment Trip is able to run from the armoury with the Xindi weapon to the transporter in around 10 seconds.

>>>Has it ever been established if you can use the transporter while the hull is polarized? <<<

Not in diolog, but people have been beaming onto and off Enterprise while the hull has been polarized since Broken Bow. Hull plating is not the same as the shields used on later Enterprise's. Hull plating reenforces the strength of the hull, shields absorb energy before it reaches the hull. The latter will, therefore, affect transporters while the former will not.

>>>By ScottN on Monday, February 02, 2004 - 10:29 am:

See, there's something more or less unique to Enterprise of all the Trek series: you never saw LaForge recovering from being transformed in the episode after 'Identity Crisis', or similar, did you? As far as internal continuity is concerned, Enterprise is unmatched.

Notable exception (that proves the rule): Family(TNG)<<<

Medical technology will improve between the time of Enterprise and TOS and TNG. By the later periods it will be quite possible to close up a gash to the head by waving a UV light over it. Enterprise has always shown, or tried to show, that the medical technology here is less advanced by having characters remain wounded after being treated in Sickbay - unlike TNG were crewmen limped into sickbay then bounced out minutes later fully healed.

>>>By LUIGI NOVI on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 1:39 pm:
roger: Here's another missed opportunity to at least mention Orions. One of the slave women is a "Nubian". Nubia is in Africa, and none of the women looked African.
Luigi Novi: She was Nuvian, not Nubian. <<<

I wonder if it was meant to be a play on 'Nubile'?

Nit; The Xindi blow the airlock open to board Enterprise. Yet when they return to their ship it appears that the doors are intact when they leave. Either the Xindi decided they only needed to blow the inner airlock doors to kingdom come and left the outside door intact so as not to decompress Enterprise when they undocked, or some one screwed up.

I can fully understand why the Xindi didn't try and destroy Enterprise before they boarded the ship, since this would have killed their opperative. But why didn't they try and destroy the ship once they had her back?
On a related note. The Xindi went through Enterprises security force as if it didn't exist. So why did they not try and capture the ship? Even if they felt they didn't have enough troops on the docked ship there is a second Xindi ship around, and Enterprise has a docking port on both sides of the hull.

While it is possible that they seriously overestimated how powerful Enterprise was they should have realised rather quickly that they had a chance to either destroy or capture the ship and rid themselves of a threat.

Why do the Xindi need a bio-weapon when they have the "Sphere of Mass-Destruction"?

I belive it was a back-up to the sphere, at least that's what I recall the head reptilian saying. I think he also said it was in case the Council changes their mind about using sphere at all.