I'm a diversion! I'm a diversion!

It has begun. All of the plot-building and weaving has led Enterprise to this moment, where the truths are revealed and we begin the inexorable slog towards the season (if not series) finale. As such, "Azati Prime" had to do a lot of things, and it did many of them fairly well. We had a tightly-wound plot that answered many questions from the beginning of the season, and presented us with new ones to propell us onward. What we didn't have was a very prominent emotional core to the story, which made Archer's supposed-sacrifice ring slightly more flat than it should have. Overall, this was a good ep, and it left me pining for more new episodes much more than I've pined over Trek for a while. Huzzah!

Three things I liked about this episode:
3) Archer took a big step up here. While I was less-keen on his reasoning for him to be the shuttle pilot, I thought that he did very well later on in the episode when he was dealing with the Xindi. The way he played the Reptilian Commander was near perfect, as was his interaction with Degra. Plus his goodbye speech was well-done. Could he finally be getting his character in order?
2) I think Travis did more in this episode than he's done the entire rest of the season. Quite refreshing.
1) I really loved how Daniels came oh-so-close to fufilling on of the great Trekkie wet dreams: accurately detailing the founding races of the Federation. "Humans, Andorians, Vulcans...and some other people you've never heard of... oh, and Klingons." Hee.

Three things I didn't like:
3) Emotion, people! The crew's reaction to Archer's departure was just so flat, it defied belief. Of course, T'Pol tried to make up for it with her histeronics, but, really, was there any finality to any of Archer's going-away scenes? Not really.
2) The entire deal with the MACOs was that they were supposed to go to work once the Xindi weapon was found. Here, the Xindi weapon was found... and we didn't see a MACO the entire time.
1) Was it just me, or was Daniels maybe a little too glib with his information this time around? He went from "Not-talking-about-the-Federation-at-all to "Federation History 101," and it seemed a little uncharacteristic of him.

Other nits and notes:

It's been a while since Archer's been smacked around, hasn't it? Reminded me of the good ol' days...

Gratuitous bit #1- having the future ship be the Enterprise. It's not really a nit, it just struck me as unnessecary.

Gratuitous bit #2- the shot of the bodies flying out of the hull breech during the battle. Nice shot, but a bit gratuitous.

Once again, I return to one of my main harping points of the past half-season: why hasn't the Xindi kept better tabs on the Enterprise? When they first got to the Expanse, the Xindi knew pretty much exactly where they were and what they were up to. Now, they're wondering how many Earth ships are in the Expanse? What the hell happened to their intelligence?

I have to admit, I was a teensy bit dissapointed that the reason the Sphere Makers tipped off the Xindi was tied to universal domination. It seems a bit familiar.

Oh, and about the Sphere Makers- we're supposed to believe that they're more dangerous than the Borg and the Dominion? Riiiiiiiiight.

I could be wrong, but wasn't the star where the battle in the future was going on rather close to Earth?

Okay, the timeline is acting screwy again. In "Shockwave," Daniels pulled Archer forward in time, to the tune of seriously screwing up the timeline, as Archer somehow was then never able to kick-start the Federation or some such, and all of history was damaged. Here, Daniels pulls Archer forward in time... and everything's fine.

Right. Like I said, I'm looking forward to seeing how this gets played out. Final Grade: A- Next week: Reruns? UPN officially has no honor.

Spellbinding. That's the only word I can think of to describe it. Absolutely spellbinding. Not perfect mind you, but I haven't been this glued to the television set and more eager for commericals to end since the finale of Deep Space Nine.

As Sparrow pointed out, the characterization was a little off and Daniels seemed a bit loose-lipped, but this plot was TIGHT and COMPELLING!

I loved it!!! I can't believe TPTB didn't save this for the season finale. I can only imagine that we're going up from here.

THE ENTERPRISE-J:
I did NOT see that coming. That was just a wonderful scene. It just made the whole Trek universe seem so wonderfully in balance!

SMART-A$$ ARCHER:
I was genuinely laughing aloud when Archer was being a smart mouth. This reminded me of his performance in "The Andorian Incident" where he had a similar tactic. This is a nice bit of consistency. A lot of people use humor to deal with difficult situations.

DEGRA:
Degra, Degra, Degra!! This was the real treat of the episode. I usually think the word "meaty characterization" is a term that is used WAAAAAYYY too much. (Usually preceeded by the phrase "this Enterprise episode didn't have") Well here we have it in spades with Degra. He comes across as a very reasonable man who is willing to listen. His regret over the weapon makes him a very tragic character.

REASON TRIUMPHS:
I very much liked that Archer did not immediately do what Daniels said. Archer is right. With the weapon nearly completed, time is of the essence. But when Archer's back is against the wall, diplomacy seems the reasonable course of action. And all throughout the conversations, Archer and Degra are very civil to each other (almost like they've known each other before. Wink, wink.)

T'POL:
I will be very surprised if T’Pol is not sick or ill somehow. Something is amiss with her. I want to find out what it is.

SHIP GETS BLOWED UP REAL GOOD:
What a hammering the Enterprise got this week. This scene showing the Enterprise just getting completely overwhelmed and smacked around like one of Porthos's dog toys was beautifully done. I was seriously angry when the episode just ended right there. I really want to know how they're going to get out of this one.

CLIFFHANGER:
A cliffhanger in the middle of the season! Absolutely brilliant! But I still can't wait to find out what happens.

OVERALL OPINION:
Solid A. It had problems, but I don't care. I loved it. Flaws and all. Wonderful episode.

TUE

I'm watching the episode as we speak (slipped away during the first commercial break,) but the first big "angst" moment occurs when Archer destroys the communications facillity on the moon.

Sorry, I'm not buying it. 4 hours would be plenty of time to send the MACOs down and take over the facillity, and then the Xindi wouldn't get suspicious from lack of communication.


Oh, and where were the incsectiods at the beginning meeting?


Otherwise, so far, so good.

---Critique:
---Good, tense episode, with an ending that sent shivers, and which could’ve been used as a season-ender.
---Well, I don’t think much analysis is necessary. The episode pulled me in, created an excellent sense of tension throughout, both with the mission to destroy the weapon, the reappearance of Daniels and a peek into the future, Archer’s attempt to create a rapport with Degra, friction between the Xindi factions actually playing into the unfolding story as Enterprise takes a pounding and loses at least three crewman in a devastating battle. I actually cared about what was going to happen next throughout the episode, the visual effects were great, I freaked when I saw the Enterprise fall apart inside and out and lose crewmen through hull breaches, and I’m going to be very upset if all this is made moot with a press of the Reset Button, but I have a feeling that that’s not going to happen. Given the ending, I can’t wait to see how the creators are planning on topping it for the season finale.
---Archer’s musings that the Insectoid shuttle controls are difficult to operate because they were built for beings with compound eyes was welcome, as was Travis’ continuing difficulty in learning to operate it.

---Notes:
---The Klingons are part of the Federation 400 years in the possible future, and Xindi serving aboard the Enterprise-J, as Daniels tells Archer in the opening scene of Act 2.
---T’Pol admits to Archer in the second scene of Act 2 that their visit to 21st century Detroit in Carpenter Street has tempered her skepticism about time travel.
---It appears that by the 2150’s, it has been determined that the asteroid that struck the Earth and killed the dinosaurs 65 million years ago was a comet, as Archer tells the Xindi Reptilian interrogator in Act 3.

---Continuity Nods:
We see a Prometheus-class ship in the closing scene of Act 1, and again in the opening scene of Act 2, which was first seen in Message in a Bottle(VOY), and last seen in Endgame(VOY).

---Terms:
Enarchis Xindi writer whom Degra mentions at the end of the teaser, who wrote some 50 years into the Great Diaspora, “Without a world of our own, we are but children lost in the wilderness.”
Enterprise-J A future descendant of the Enterprise, onto which Archer steps in the closing scene of Act 1, as Daniels tells him.
The Battle of Procyon Five A 26th century battle between the Federation and the Sphere Builders which Archer witnesses when he steps onto the Enterprise-J in the future, which Daniels refers to as a “monumental event in history” in the opening scene of Act 2.
Sphere Builders The trans-dimensional race to which the alien encountered in Harbinger belonged, which built the Spheres in the Delphic Expanse in order to make the Expanse habitable for them as a prelude to an invasion, as Daniels reveals to Archer in the opening scene of Act 2.
Ithenites Member race of the Federation by the 26th century, as Daniels tells Archer in the opening scene of Act 2.
Trenia The name of Degra’s third child, as Archer reveals to his Reptilian interrogator in Act 3. The child was lost three months into his wife’s pregnancy, as Archer explains to him in the closing scene of Act 3.
Anaprolean Fever Disease which Degra’s wife contracted three months into her pregnancy, which claimed the life of their third child, as Archer explains to Degra in the closing scene of Act 3.

I usually think the word "meaty characterization" is a term that is used WAAAAAYYY too much. (Usually preceeded by the phrase "this Enterprise episode didn't have") TUE

Bwah! So, so true.

Thought of something else. When the Xindi attack Archer's shuttle in the water, the water itself didn't seem to be affected by all the weapons fire. Shouldn't it boil, or are the Xindi weapons not hot in that fashion? Shouldn't there at least be some sort of wave produced by the beams?

Oh! Oh! Something else. Archer told Daniels that they had come to the conclusion that the Sphere Makers were overhauling the galaxy as part of a takeover attempt. When did they come up with that? Was Archer just posturing?

Well...I don't know what to say.

It was good. Not just good, actually enjoyable good. Characters were used to further the plot instead of just reacting to events. The pacing was tight and dramatic. The cliffhanger ending actually left me wanting to see more-- and I haven't felt that way about Enterprise in a while.

And that worries me.

Maybe I'm old and cynical, but I can't help feeling a little uneasy when something that has been as so-so as Enterprise has been lately suddenly takes a quantum leap in quality. (Yes, I just had to use that phrase. Heck, Archer did in the episode.)

It tells me that either A) The Killer Bees were saving the good stuff for the end of the season, or B) The Killer Bees really can get their act together and write good Trek if they want to, they just haven't felt like it recently.

I hope this marks a change in attitude, but time will tell. Maybe if the Xindi arc is resolved by season's end then Enterprise can get back to that exploration mission Archer mentioned.

Now that would be something to look forward to every week.

One more thing before I call it a night: when the Reptilians bring Degra in to see Archer, Degra eventually says "Leave me alone with him," and then specifically tells the other Reptilian to get out as well. Are things between the Xindi so bad that Degra thinks the Reptilians don't know what "alone" means?

It’s often been pointed out when Archer and other characters intuitively know certain things required of them by the plot by mere guessing, as when he somehow knew the Klingon chasing him at the end of The Expanse was Duras, or when he knew that the weapon’s failure in Proving Ground was due to Gralik’s sabotage, but in the teaser of this episode, the creators get it right, when Archer sees that the lead ship in the convoy is Degra’s by comparing its warp signature to the Enterprise’s warp signature records. Well done!

So what's the point of having a communications facility be out of contact for any length of time? Even if they can't broadcast through the moon there could have been a satellite in orbit or a series of lunar surface relay stations on the moon so it could be in continual contact.

Archer says that after the comet hit some reptiles survived by becoming snakes, alligators & turtles. IIRC turtles branched off in the Permian, snake fossils are known from the Mesozoic, and there were crocidilian-type reptiles in the Triassic, all of which was prior to the Cretaceous extinction (heck, turtles survived the Permian & Triassic extinctions as well.) Of course, it's possible that Archer intentionally misstated this just to tick off his interrogator, but I thought I'd mention it.

That’s what they drink when they want to toast, “Here’s to hoping this episode won’t s*ck as much as that Kevin Costner movie”
The bottle whose contents Degra pours for the others at the end of teaser has hanging from it a pendant that looks much like an Earth dragonfly.
Interesting quirk of the language barrier: When a Reptilian fleet commander asks his first officer to locate their ships and the officer says, “I’ve got crabs”, it means something totally different
The Xindi-reptilian ships are not only shaped like the horseshoe-crab-shaped Son’a ships, as I mentioned in Rajiin, but as we see in the opening shot of Act 1, even have a large array projecting up from their dorsal side, also like the Son’a ships.
Set tricorders to “psychic scan”
Trip tells Travis in during their recon mission in Act 1 that he’s still picking up trace kemocite readings, but not enough to indicate a large-scale weapon. How would he know this? They didn’t even know what kemocite was until The Shipment, and nowhere in that episode did Gralik mention how much was needed for a large-scale weapon. Gralik didn’t even know what Degra was ordering kemocite for until Archer told him, and Trip neither journeyed to the planet nor spoke to Gralik.
Fool me once with an underwater infiltration, shame on you, fool me twice with an underwater infiltration mission…
Why doesn’t anyone in or around the underwater weapon facility notice the unauthorized Insectoid shuttle in Act 1, but notice it later during Archer’s mission in Act 3?
Or was Degra just working in a plug for the Keanu Reeves movie?
When looking over the schematics of the weapon in the Command Center following Trip and Travis’ scene near the end of Act 1, Reed points out a part of the weapon he calls its “explosive matrix.” But the test version of the weapon used in The Expanse didn’t use an explosion. It used an energy beam.
Yeah, you’d think if Archer were eager to commit to a suicide mission, he’d have done so in episodes like “Precious Cargo” and “Carpenter Street”
When Reed suggests using a couple of photonic torpedoes to destroy the Xindi weapon at the end of Act 1, Archer says it’ll be a one-way trip. Why is this? Even if the shuttle isn’t equipped with launchers compatible with Enterprise’s torpedoes, why can’t they rig the shuttle to carry the torpedoes on its underside, and release them when they want to?
They built their hulls out of fruitcake. They’ll last forever.
At the end of Act 1, when Archer steps onto the Enterprise-J, 400 years into the future, the last ship we see zoom past the window is a Prometheus-class ship, which first appeared when it was being tested in Message in a Bottle(VOY). A Prometheus-class ships also whizzes by in the opening scene of Act 2. So they’re still using Prometheus-class vessels 200 years after they were commissioned? By contrast, the Enterprise-J itself looks at least somewhat different.
Perhaps the Federation should offer reduced introductory deals like “Two new species for the price of one,” or “become a member for full price, and then add one protectorate for free!”
Does the Federation undergo a radical reduction in membership by the 26th century? Picard told Lily in ST First Contact that there were nearly 150 member races, and you’d think it might be much more 200 years after that, but Daniels tells Archer that the Federation of the 26th century consists of “dozens of species.”
Next thing you know, he’ll be getting Archer to do his laundry
Why didn’t Daniels tell Archer the information about the Sphere Builders in Carpenter Street, or better yet, back in The Expanse? And why can’t he or his people contact the Xindi to tell them? Wouldn’t Daniels be better-equipped to prove this to them by taking one of them into the future? Why does he have to keep getting Archer to do these things for him?
It only feels that way because “Carpenter Street” and “Chosen Realm” sucked
Archer mentions to Travis in the shuttle in Act 2 that the events in Similitude took place a month prior. Is this right? While Similitude didn’t have a starlog date, the date of Proving Ground was December 6th, and the date of Hatchery, the episode right before this one, was January 8th, so over a month elapsed just between Proving Ground and Hatchery. This episode must take place at least some amount of time after Hatchery, and Similitude was three episodes before Proving Ground. Shouldn’t it have been considerably more than a month?

Archer comes from the George W. Bush School of Diplomacy
The issue of whether the Enterprise’s mission was to avert the destruction of Earth by destroying the Xindi Weapon or by opening a dialogue with them (or some combination of both) has been somewhat unclear, and Archer has shown some vagueness on the matter, particularly in episodes like The Shipment, but for the past several episodes, Archer’s immediate concern seems to have been to destroy the Weapon. Because of this ambiguity, I’ve been reluctant to point this out, but I’m doing so here because Daniels actually mentions it to Archer in the opening scene of Act 2: He mentions that destroying the Xindi weapon they will only build another. Well, duuuhhhh! Why didn’t Archer consider this before? At most it would only delay the Xindi destruction of Earth, not stop it. Or did Archer think that destroying a new technology would also destroy all records of its schematics, as apparently happened with the Bird of Prey that could fire when cloaked in ST VI? Taking a diplomatic approach would be risky, but it would have a long-term goal instead of the short-term goal of destroying the Weapon.

Well, Gene Roddenberry said that Star Trek was a western in space, so maybe these guys are the like the Clint Eastwood character from A Fistful of Dollars
If Daniels has all this information about the Sphere-builders and their involvement in events all the way up to the 26th century, why couldn’t he tell Archer the name of their species? Instead, he repeatedly refers to them simply as the "Sphere-builders."

I wonder if the captain of Enterprise J was aware of the presence of Daniels on board.

KAM: So what's the point of having a communications facility be out of contact for any length of time? Even if they can't broadcast through the moon there could have been a satellite in orbit or a series of lunar surface relay stations on the moon so it could be in continual contact.

You're absolutely right. Unfortunately, I can't fault the creators because this is the first time in half of forever that I feel like the creators have actually come up with a non-technobabble explanation for a technological limitation. I know that Clarke's Law (“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic") would naturally apply when one looks 2 or 3 centuries into the future, but it seems to me (and others) like technology serves as a deus ex machina for the writers, behaving this way one week and that way another based on the specific needs of that episode, with random B.S. explanations tossed in to try and "explain" the differences. I found it very refreshing that a simple, reasonable explanation like the monitoring station being unable to communicate due to lunar rotation was used instead of "somekinda" distortion field or something else. Unfortunately, their limitation could have easily been overcome using primitive 20th century technology, as Keith demonstrated.

Luigi Novi: When looking over the schematics of the weapon in the Command Center following Trip and Travis’ scene near the end of Act 1, Reed points out a part of the weapon he calls its “explosive matrix.” But the test version of the weapon used in The Expanse didn’t use an explosion. It used an energy beam.

True, but perhaps the theory of operation is similar to that of an X-ray laser. In the heyday of the SDI (Strategic Defense Initiative, or "Star Wars", as Pres. Reagan called it), there was a plan for an X-ray laser that could take out ICBMs in transit. Basically, a nuclear bomb aboard a satellite would be detonated, and just before the detonation obliterated the satellite, the release of gamma rays and X-rays would be used to "pump" a lasing medium that would emit a beam of X-ray radiation. Essentially, the bomb's energy was what powered the laser. Maybe the Xindi weapon uses a similar concept.

TJFleming (Harbinger Board): . . . I think the aliens are the Xindi’s puppetmasters, not their allies.

Ooh! Ooh! What do I win?

Keith, Jesse--I get SO tired of pointing out how 20th century technology could have solved a problem. Thanks for picking up the load here.

Looks like Archer skipped all the life and earth sciences in high school. Besides what Keith pointed out about reptiles, Archer thinks mammals are a species.

Good episode though. But putting a cliffhanger here lends credence to Sparrow's speculation about a series finale. "Jonny, we hardly knew ye."

Misunderstood Line of the Week:
Daniels: "This is Enterprise, J."

I thought for a moment that Daniels was being a bit too familiar with Jonathan Archer, calling him by his first initial. It would have been nice if Archer had misunderstood, as well, because why would the captain of just one of the many ships named Enterprise understand that the ship on which he stood had a letter designation to its name?

I think the interrogation of Archer and his interaction with Degra has been the best stuff we've seen from the character in recent episodes. I really loved his taunting the reptillian interrogator...though, you'd think a species so aggressive would have developed better torture techniques than the millenia-old knuckle sandwich (I'm assuming reptillian Xindi have knuckles).

I do appreciate that, while Paramount/UPN hyped Archer's attempt at a suicide mission and T'Pol's t'ears and c'rying, they did not spoil the reappearance of Daniels and the ass-pounding Enterprise gets at the end of the episode. Good for them for not, for once, playing every card in their hand!

Quote from the47thman over at the Television Without Pity discussion boards, that I share with you in hopes you will find it as funny as I did:

How much of a Trekkie am I? I knew that the ship Daniels took Archer to was a Federation vessel... from the carpet. Yikes.

Funny - I thought the same thing as I watched that scene!

Wow. Just finnished the episode. I was right about the communications facillity.

Just two words: #@$@!!!$#! Cliffhanger!


Possibly the first time I've looked forward to the next episode of Enterprise.

Archer told Daniels that they had come to the conclusion that the Sphere Makers were overhauling the galaxy as part of a takeover attempt. When did they come up with that? - Sparrow47

In Harbinger, Archer and T'Pol discussed that perhaps there was some truth in the Triannon myths about the Makers learned in Chosen Realm. According to the myth, the Spheres were reshaping the Expanse, and Archer speculated that the alien might be akin to a coal mine canary... a test subject to check if they can survive in our universe. This, coupled with the alien's dying words about his people prevailing probably led him to this conclusion.

Trip tells Travis in during their recon mission in Act 1 that he’s still picking up trace kemocite readings, but not enough to indicate a large-scale weapon. How would he know this? - Luigi

Perhaps from the data they retrieved from Degra's ship in Stratagem.


Why doesn’t anyone in or around the underwater weapon facility notice the unauthorized Insectoid shuttle in Act 1, but notice it later during Archer’s mission in Act 3? - Luigi

Maybe they wondered what an Insectoid shuttle was doing there after the weapon had been moved. Granted, you'd expect stricter security while the weapon was there.

Also, by this point, the Xindi were aware of the destruction of the communications outpost, which undoubtedly put them on high alert.


...why can’t they rig the shuttle to carry the torpedoes on its underside, and release them when they want to? - Luigi

"Degra... an Insectoid shuttle with an explosive device strapped to its underside is approaching the weapon."

Archer uses his knowledge of Degra's mystery third child to help convince Degra to listen to him. According to Archer, Degra told him this information. The suggestion is that they had developed a close enough bond in Stratagem for Degra to share this private information with Archer.

Yet when Degra tests Archer in Stratagem, Archer needs Hoshi to tell him the names of Degra's two children from Degra's computer files. So when, exactly did Degra tell Archer about the third child? Or did Archer lie about where he got this information?

Luigi Novi: A Prometheus-class ships also whizzes by in the opening scene of Act 2. So they’re still using Prometheus-class vessels 200 years after they were commissioned? By contrast, the Enterprise-J itself looks at least somewhat different.

Well, as a friend pointed out to me, no matter how far into Trek's future we go and how many battles the Federation fights, Starfleet is always able to dig up an Excelsior- or Miranda-class vessel and throw it into the fray. We know that the Miranda were built sometime prior to 2283 (the year that ST2 was set in), but they show up as late as sixth-season DS9 (that's the last I can remember seeing them, in "Sacrifice of Angels"), which is what...90 years? So maybe the Prometheus-class ships have a long shelf life as well.

I think that there would be a shift in the policies concerning decomissioning starships in the post-TNG/DS9/VOY years. In the century between Kirk assuming command and Picard assuming command, the biggest threat came from the Klingons. It was a cold war scenario with little apparent bloodshed. The Romulans did little else than rattle the saber here and there, but eventually they withdrew from the interstellar scene. There was a border war with the Cardassians, but that doesn't seem all that serious. In other words, things were somewhat peaceful, and as time went on the threat of war must have diminished.

But, in the two decades or so since Picard first took command of 1701-D, the Federation has weathered 2 Borg invasions, a massive years-long war with a three-pronged enemy alliance (Dominion/Cardassian/Breen) which is still largely intact at the end of the war, a brief war with the Klingons, an attempted assault by Shinzon and his Romulan forces, plus learning of Species 8472, a hostile alien force more powerful than the Borg who may come invading at any moment.

The idea I'm driving at is that the Federation has experienced a sudden increase in threat levels. They've lost more people in 2 decades than in the previous 20 (so it would seem), and now it probably will become apparent that things aren't necessarily going to get better. After all, the Borg are still around, the Breen are virtually unscathed and far more powerful than anyone had imagined, and the Dominion is still powerful as well. And, as I said, the Federation knows that there's still more enemies out there, like S8472. Thus, I think it's logical to conclude that Starfleet will start holding onto ships longer, as long as they can keep them serviceable.

Luigi Novi:At the end of Act 1, when Archer steps onto the Enterprise-J, 400 years into the future, the last ship we see zoom past the window is a Prometheus-class ship, which first appeared when it was being tested in Message in a Bottle(VOY).
And then we see USS Dauntless (NX-01-A ), and also Nova class starship...

Glad you liked the quote, Taoiseach!

I really loved how Daniels came oh-so-close to fufilling on of the great Trekkie wet dreams: accurately detailing the founding races of the Federation. "Humans, Andorians, Vulcans...and some other people you've never heard of... oh, and Klingons."

Doesn't mean the Klingons were founders -- we know they weren't. I took it to mean that the Klingons joined the Federation sometime between 2375 and 2553.

Sparrow47: The entire deal with the MACOs was that they were supposed to go to work once the Xindi weapon was found. Here, the Xindi weapon was found...
Luigi Novi: Where was this stated? What I understood from The Expanse was that they were brought on board to provide greater expertise in tactical matters.

Sparrow47: Was it just me, or was Daniels maybe a little too glib with his information this time around? He went from "Not-talking-about-the-Federation-at-all to "Federation History 101," and it seemed a little uncharacteristic of him.
Luigi Novi: He mostly certainly did tell Archer about the Federation in Shockwave partII. He told him that there used to be a monument to the Federation on the same street as the library, and that it appeared that it had not even been built. He allows Archer to search the library with him for references to the Federation, and when Archer says he can’t find any, Daniels says he doubts he will. Archer then says, “Because that monument wasn’t there?”, and Daniels replies, “Because you weren’t there.” Daniels says everything looks right through the 21st and 22nd centuries until the Warp Five Program, and that Archer was important because he helped set events into motion that would have led to others, which Archer infers to mean that he plays an important part in the Federation. Archer himself mentions in this scene in Azati Prime that Daniels told him about it in that earlier episode.

What Daniels didn’t want Archer to know about was the Romulan Star Empire, not the Federation.

Sparrow47: having the future ship be the Enterprise. It's not really a nit, it just struck me as unnessecary.
Luigi Novi: I loved it. I once thought it would be cool if we saw a future Enterprise like the Enterprise-Z, though the J didn’t look as futuristic as I might’ve imagined, at least superficially.

Sparrow47: the shot of the bodies flying out of the hull breech during the battle. Nice shot, but a bit gratuitous.
Luigi Novi: For me, it added to the power of the sequence. I gasped when I saw it.

Sparrow47: When they first got to the Expanse, the Xindi knew pretty much exactly where they were and what they were up to. Now, they're wondering how many Earth ships are in the Expanse? What the hell happened to their intelligence?
Luigi Novi: I don’t see how these two things are contradictory. What does knowing where the Enterprise is and what it’s up to have to do with how many other ships are in the Expanse?

Sparrow47: Oh, and about the Sphere Makers- we're supposed to believe that they're more dangerous than the Borg and the Dominion? Riiiiiiiiight.
Luigi Novi: I don’t recall anyone indicating that we were supposed to believe any such thing. The Sphere-builders obviously are dangerous, but not merely on a basis of comparison to someone else.

Sparrow47: I could be wrong, but wasn't the star where the battle in the future was going on rather close to Earth?
Luigi Novi: The Procyon System is 11.4 ly from our Sun.

Sparrow47: In "Shockwave," Daniels pulled Archer forward in time, to the tune of seriously screwing up the timeline, as Archer somehow was then never able to kick-start the Federation or some such, and all of history was damaged. Here, Daniels pulls Archer forward in time... and everything's fine.
Luigi Novi: Perhaps this was because Daniels’ time portals and everything else were destroyed in that episode. Daniels’ actions in that episode were said to be a miscalculation, and not the norm, as Archer himself alludes to in this episode, which means that all things being equal, his doing this is not normally dangerous to the timeline.

Sparrow47: Archer told Daniels that they had come to the conclusion that the Sphere Makers were overhauling the galaxy as part of a takeover attempt. When did they come up with that? Was Archer just posturing?
Luigi Novi: Daniels tells Archer that the Sphere-Builders are altering space to make it habitable for their species, as a prelude to invasion. Archer and T’Pol discussed in the ready room in Act 2 of Harbinger the possibility that the Triannon creation myth was based on the principle that the aliens who created the Spheres did so in order to survive in that part of space. While an “invasion” was not specifically mentioned, I’m not surprised that Archer came to that conclusion after what the alien told him at the very end of that episode. Archer hardly had to state this conclusion explicitly in order for his statement to Daniels in this episode to ring true.

Captain Dunsel: Maybe I'm old and cynical, but I can't help feeling a little uneasy when something that has been as so-so as Enterprise has been lately suddenly takes a quantum leap in quality.
Luigi Novi: I don’t think that’s anything new, Cap, since both Voyager and Enterprise have been characterized, in my opinion, by sporadic quality. Shipment was lousy in my opinion, but then Twilight was really good, but then North Star was horrendous, but then Similitude was really good, but then Carpenter Street was offensively bad.

On Voyager, this appeared to be due to a total lack of a cohesive, consistent vision for the series, a notion supported by what Ronald D. Moore has stated about working on the staff for that show.

But with Enterprise, the sporadic quality of the Xindi arc appears to me to be due to the fact that the creators need some episodes to set up developing plot points for future ones, but can’t seem to produce those set-up episodes to exhibit quality on their own. The failure of the Xindi weapon test in Proving Ground, for example, was due to sabotage that they needed to set up in The Shipment. The Xindi-Reptilian attempt at a bio-weapon in Carpenter Street seems to have been used to set up tension between the different Xindi factions in Azati Prime. And the virus that infected Archer, Reed and Hoshi in Extinction may have been used so that when Rajiin’s scans of the crew in Rajiin would yield flawed information about them that may have consequence in an episode yet to come (perhaps the Reptilians will resort to their bio-weapon if the energy-beam weapon is made unavailable). But in each of these three examples, the set up episodes were all lousy, IMO. (And then you have a clunker like North Star, which doesn’t seem to have been a good episode or served an setup purposes.)

The one episode I can think of off the top of my head that set up an important plot point that was a good episode in its own right was Sim’s admission of feelings for T’Pol in Similitude, which T’Pol revealed to Trip in Harbinger, but even in that instance, Harbinger itself was more of a setup episode, for Azati Prime, and its greatest strength for me was as a character episode rather than a development in the Xindi arc. (In addition, Similitude itself had some glaring story problems, and I know some of you had problems with T’Pol and Reed in Harbinger.)

Compare all this to the arcs used on DS9. Those worked fairly well, in part perhaps because instead of writing episodes solely to set up future ones, the writers of the future ones would pick up on bits of dialogue and other things from previous episodes after the fact, rather than in a pre-planned manner. (The revelation of Bashir’s genetic secret, Odo’s feelings for Kira, etc.) You can write setup material in advance, but the episode in which you do so should primarily serve its own thematic, plot and character needs first.

Anonymous: I wonder if the captain of Enterprise J was aware of the presence of Daniels on board.
Luigi Novi: I doubt it. I imagined Daniels picked an unused corridor and shielded his presence from the crew.

Jesse: True, but perhaps the theory of operation is similar to that of an X-ray laser. In the heyday of the SDI (Strategic Defense Initiative, or "Star Wars", as Pres. Reagan called it), there was a plan for an X-ray laser that could take out ICBMs in transit. Basically, a nuclear bomb aboard a satellite would be detonated, and just before the detonation obliterated the satellite, the release of gamma rays and X-rays would be used to "pump" a lasing medium that would emit a beam of X-ray radiation. Essentially, the bomb's energy was what powered the laser. Maybe the Xindi weapon uses a similar concept.
Luigi Novi: I doubt it. I don’t see a Xindi weapon using something so primitive, nor did the test weapon in the The Expanse appear to have a bomb detonate inside it.

Taoiseach: It would have been nice if Archer had misunderstood, as well, because why would the captain of just one of the many ships named Enterprise understand that the ship on which he stood had a letter designation to its name?
Luigi Novi: Because Daniels told him that it was a distant relative of Archer’s Enterprise 400 years in the future.

Darth Sarcasm: Perhaps from the data they retrieved from Degra's ship in Stratagem.
Luigi Novi: Degra deleted that data. After capturing his ship, T’Pol said there was “very little data left.” Archer then asked about navigational logs, and T’Pol said they were deleted too. The only thing they found of value were fragments of a personal file that Hoshi found, consisting of parts of a letter Degra wrote to someone. When Archer asked her if it mentioned the weapon, Hoshi said no. This makes it clear that Archer was looking for info on the weapon, so if the “very little data” T’Pol mentioned included the amount of kemocite needed for it, I’d imagine she’d have mentioned it.

Darth Sarcasm: Maybe they wondered what an Insectoid shuttle was doing there after the weapon had been moved. Granted, you'd expect stricter security while the weapon was there.
Luigi Novi: When did they move the weapon?

Darth Sarcasm: "Degra... an Insectoid shuttle with an explosive device strapped to its underside is approaching the weapon."
Luigi Novi: “Degra…an Insectoid shuttle with two torpedoes inside it is approaching the weapon.”

Darth Sarcasm: Archer uses his knowledge of Degra's mystery third child to help convince Degra to listen to him. According to Archer, Degra told him this information. The suggestion is that they had developed a close enough bond in Stratagem for Degra to share this private information with Archer.
Luigi Novi: Actually, Archer flat-out says that Degra told him. At first I remembered this scene as Archer learning this bit of info from Daniels, but in reviewing it upon reading your nit, Archer says the Degra told him. In some cases, I’d chalk up certain things like this to off-camera dialogue, expect that we saw the entire continuous exchange between Archer and Degra, which included Archer’s use of his two kids’ names, Degra’s discovery of the ruse, his attempt to kill Archer, and Archer’s subsequent confrontation with Degra in the brig, so there’s no way Degra would’ve dropped this bit of info in between commercials, IMO.

Jesse: We know that the Miranda were built sometime prior to 2283 (the year that ST2 was set in), but they show up as late as sixth-season DS9 (that's the last I can remember seeing them, in "Sacrifice of Angels"), which is what...90 years? So maybe the Prometheus-class ships have a long shelf life as well.
Luigi Novi: ST II was in 2285, and the seventh season of DS9 was in 2375, so yeah, that’s 90 years. But 200? And they manage to beat the Sphere-Builders with these ships?

Jesse: There was a border war with the Cardassians, but that doesn't seem all that serious.
Luigi Novi: As established where? Admiral Haden made clear in The Wounded(TNG) that it was.

Jesse: But, in the two decades or so since Picard first took command of 1701-D, the Federation has weathered 2 Borg invasions, a massive years-long war with a three-pronged enemy alliance (Dominion/Cardassian/Breen) which is still largely intact at the end of the war, a brief war with the Klingons, an attempted assault by Shinzon and his Romulan forces, plus learning of Species 8472, a hostile alien force more powerful than the Borg who may come invading at any moment.
Luigi Novi: I don’t recall any mention that the Dominion/Cardassian/Breen forces were “still largely intact” at the end of the war, I’m not sure about the severity of the conflict with the Klingons, and I don’t recall any priority placed on 8472, who made peace with Janeway in In the Flesh, and disappeared after that, never once making any sort of threat of invasion since.

Jesse: The idea I'm driving at is that the Federation has experienced a sudden increase in threat levels. They've lost more people in 2 decades than in the previous 20 (so it would seem),…
Luigi Novi: We don’t know that. We have no idea how many people they lost in the Cardassian War (but Admiral Haden told Picard they couldn’t afford another one), and know next to nothing about the Tzenkethi War, but it was likely within the past 20 years, given that Sisko was the XO of the Okinawa during it, as established in Paradise Lost(DS9).

Jesse: …and now it probably will become apparent that things aren't necessarily going to get better. After all, the Borg are still around, the Breen are virtually unscathed and far more powerful than anyone had imagined, and the Dominion is still powerful as well.
Luigi Novi: And this has been established where? We have no info on the status of the Borg following Endgame, and zilch on the Breen or Dominion following What You Leave Behind(DS9).

Jesse: And, as I said, the Federation knows that there's still more enemies out there, like S8472. Thus, I think it's logical to conclude that Starfleet will start holding onto ships longer, as long as they can keep them serviceable.
Luigi Novi: So you’re saying:

“There are still threats = let’s keep our older ships.”

To me, this is a non sequitur. The way I see it, it should be

“There are still threats = let’s build more sophisticated newer ships.”

Kazeite: then we see USS Dauntless (NX-01-A ), and also Nova class starship...
Luigi Novi: DAMNN!! THAT’s what that second ship was, not a second Prometheus! Thanks, Kazeite. I jotted that Dauntless as a second Prometheus, but now that you mention it, I remember now. That’s potentially a nit.

But where was there a Nova-class ship? I scrutinized this scene, and didn’t see one. Even if there was, the Nova-class ship would only be about a hundred years old, which is a bit more believable.

As usual, Luigi, no one can put a shoddy argument past you! Let me try to respond to some of these points and see if I can't firm things up a little.

Luigi Novi: I don’t recall any mention that the Dominion/Cardassian/Breen forces were “still largely intact” at the end of the war, I’m not sure about the severity of the conflict with the Klingons, and I don’t recall any priority placed on 8472, who made peace with Janeway in In the Flesh, and disappeared after that, never once making any sort of threat of invasion since.

Alright, I made a little mistake here. The Cardassians were thoroughly destroyed. But the Breen entered the war only near the end with a massive fleet; how many battles did they fight in? And the Dominion has enough forces to keep a large portion of the Gamma Quadrant under their thumb.

Now, please correct me if I'm wrong here, but the Dominion did NOT bow out of the war because it was losing. True, they were about to get forced out of the Alpha Quadrant, but that's like the US getting forced out of Vietnam. The Dominion ended the war because the Founders experienced a paradigm shift. The Female Founder, after being cured by Odo, realized that her people's perception of "solids" was incorrect and that the Dominion was waging an unjust war. She ordered the cease-fire because of this, not because of the strategic situation.

Also, remember that the Dominion/Cardassian SHIPYARDS were always targets. That implies that there was a great deal of building in the Alpha quadrant. Yet the Dominion was able to bring thousands of ships from their side of the galaxy to here when needed. The conclusion that can be drawn is that much of the Dominion losses were ships built since the start of the pre-war buildup, not necessarily their own native forces.

As far as the Breen's disposition, their aceding to the treaty doesn't imply defeat. Had they not, they would have been just one power facing three. They really had no choice. But as stated earlier, there is no way their losses were that severe. All Fed/Klingon/Romulan invasions focused on their foothold in Cardassian space. No one ever invaded Breen space and attacked them.

Luigi Novi: As established where? Admiral Haden made clear in The Wounded(TNG) that it was.
I was wrong here. I always remember this war being classified as a border war, but I looked back at some of the mat'ls in question and found that it probably was a full-on war. My mistake. And I forgot about the Tzenkethi, BUT Startrek.com describes the war as "border wars." By definition these are not terribly serious. Michigan and Ohio once engaged in border wars.

As far as Janeway's truce with S8472....this is a race that invaded this galaxy and took on the Federation's worst menace, actually overpowering them. This makes them a potentially serious threat. Regardless of whether or not they have made peace, they are still out there and the Federation must take them into account when calculating future risk. Until the Federation concludes an actual peace treaty, the "truce" worked out by a starship captain is not solid.

Now, the Borg. I guess I can't say what is up with them. Maybe Adm. Janeway did some serious damage. However, they're not dead or dying. They are very resilient and adaptable, as we've seen time and time again. They adapted to Hugh's individuality (there was still a collective after he and his people split off, powerful enough to invade Earth) and they will continue to adapt. They've been around a long time. There quite simply is no way that this enemy was damaged by the actions of one pathetic woman and her •••••• pathogen. (If you're thinking I'm being hostile, I am--VOY really did a number of the Borg in terms of how they were portrayed.) Yes, their transward hub is gone, but that cube that the Enterprise encountered at System J25 didn't use the transwarp hub to get here. They just set course and came at us.

In conclusion, you've made some good points. I was wrong about the Cardassians twice, and I forgot about the Tzenkethi. But there is no evidence that either the Breen or the Dominion has been significantly weakened by the war. This makes them viable enemies.

Anonymous: I wonder if the captain of Enterprise J was aware of the presence of Daniels on board.

Luigi Novi: I doubt it. I imagined Daniels picked an unused corridor and shielded his presence from the crew.

I was confused on this point. Did Daniels time- travel to E-J, or did the entire E-J time-travel? Daniels did have that coin from a member of the crew.

Luigi Novi: DAMNN!! THAT’s what that second ship was, not a second Prometheus! Thanks, Kazeite. I jotted that Dauntless as a second Prometheus, but now that you mention it, I remember now. That’s potentially a nit.

But where was there a Nova-class ship?

Here.

Latest news: There's also a Vor'cha present during the battle - it enters frame when ship above blows up

...Luigi... the creators get it right, when Archer sees that the lead ship in the convoy is Degra’s by comparing its warp signature to the Enterprise’s warp signature records. Well done!

How come none of the other races put the names of their ships on the outside like the Federation does? (And apparently the Vulcans do, recalling the Surak from ST:TMP).

I think the interrogation of Archer and his interaction with Degra has been the best stuff we've seen from the character in recent episodes....

Again, it struck me as a very Kirk moment when Archer, all bloody and beaten, still gets in his Xindi captor's face.

I thought that this would be Travis' big "death" episode. After all, he had more lines in the first two acts than he's had for quite a while. And he was the most logical person to make the pod mission.

They've had this pod for a while, and they are just now getting around to trying to learn how to fly it? In two hours? I'd think it would be a better mission strategy than spending hours in hand-to-hand combat training.

Why does the Enterprise-J have to have a letter at all? There have already been several ships named "Enterprise", no bloody A, B, C, D, E, or J. (Sorry, I had to say it!)

I don't recall, did we ever get a shot of the actual Enterprise-J, or was it only featured in the spec drawing on the wall?

Someone before mentioned that a lot of the bridge explosions could be prevented with simple circuit breakers. This time it seemed like they were in a 1920's power plant with capacitors sparking and blowing up everywhere. And in this kind of battle, might turning off the artificial gravity be a good idea? Esp, if you have bridge struts or "chandeliers" that tend to fall on crewmen.

I had a fleeting thought that -- What If that moon outpost hadn't actually been a comm facility, but a temporary home to Degra's wife and two children? And Archer was responsible for (rather arbitrarily, I think) killing them?

Just the spec drawing.

When did they move the weapon? - Luigi

I guess sometime between Trip and Mayweather's reconnaisance mission and Archer's suicide run. But when Archer arrives, the large sphere (which I assume is the weapon -- seeing as it looks similar to the probe and test weapon) is gone. Only some framework (the construction facility?) remains.


“Degra…an Insectoid shuttle with two torpedoes inside it is approaching the weapon.” - Luigi

You're right... a scan would probably reveal the existence of a weapon aboard the shuttle. However, it didn't look like they bothered to scan an Insectoid shuttle that looks like it belongs there... they didn't seem to scan it to reveal there were two humans operating it earlier. But the likelihood of being detected would increase if a torpedo were attached to the exterior of the hull.

Suicide bombers don't generally walk out onto the street with an explosive device strapped on the outside of their clothes... they usually conceal the device (even though the existence of such a device could be detected if one looks closely enough).


Actually, Archer flat-out says that Degra told him... - Luigi

I'm confused here... it sounds like you're disagreeing with me, but then you say everything that I already stated.

Regarding the Klingons in the Federation- by TNG's time, there's at least one Klingon in *Starfleet*. And remember back to TNG's "Final Mission." Wesley and Picard claim that "Klingons joined the Federation."

And this episode fairly conclusively proves- again- that Xindi scanners can't detect lifesigns on ships. No mention was made of the lack of Insectoids (or any Xindi) on the stolen shuttle, or the prescence of Humans.

By the way... anybody else curious who "She" is?

At least that little exchange reveals that the Xindi as a whole can't time travel.
Maybe having some super-powerful being on their side is what keeps the reptillians in what appears to be a dominant position in the Xindi hierarchy.

I'll say it again though... where are the aquatics the past season, and where are the insectoids at the beginning meeting? (Of course, there are probably budget reasons not to show them, but it seems that in 'real life,' this would be something ALLL of the Xindi would want to meet about.)

By the way... anybody else curious who "She" is?

Shelob!

Tricksy Daroga, he gives away our secret, precious...

Um, actually "she," but ...

Where was this stated? What I understood from The Expanse was that they were brought on board to provide greater expertise in tactical matters. Luigi Novi

This is actually stated explicitly by one of the MACOs (can't remember which one off the top of my head) in "The Expanse." He says "As soon as you find the weapon, our work can begin." Or words to that effect.

He mostly certainly did tell Archer about the Federation in Shockwave partII Luigi Novi

He mentioned the Federation, but he never said specifically what it was.

I loved it. I once thought it would be cool if we saw a future Enterprise like the Enterprise-Z, though the J didn’t look as futuristic as I might’ve imagined, at least superficially...For me, it added to the power of the sequence. I gasped when I saw it. Luigi Novi

I seem to be in the distinct minority about those two things. To each their own, I suppose.

I don’t see how these two things are contradictory. What does knowing where the Enterprise is and what it’s up to have to do with how many other ships are in the Expanse? Luigi Novi

The point is, the Xindi knew the Enterprise was around as soon as it showed up. Given that, they should know good and well that no other Earth ships have entered as well.

I don’t recall anyone indicating that we were supposed to believe any such thing. The Sphere-builders obviously are dangerous, but not merely on a basis of comparison to someone else. Luigi Novi

Again, I think Daniels said something like the Sphere-builders were one of the Federation's greatest threats, and he also said that if the Federation hadn't stopped them, the Sphere-builders would have conquered the galaxy, which means the Federation was the baddest game in town at that point (which I find hard to believe) because otherwise, the Sphere-builders could have been halted by the Borg, the Dominion, etc.

Perhaps this was because Daniels’ time portals and everything else were destroyed in that episode. Daniels’ actions in that episode were said to be a miscalculation, and not the norm, as Archer himself alludes to in this episode, which means that all things being equal, his doing this is not normally dangerous to the timeline. Luigi Novi

But wasn't what destroyed Daniels' equipment the fact that when he pulled Archer forward, the timeline went screwy? Why didn't that happen this time? So confusing...

Daniels tells Archer that the Sphere-Builders are altering space to make it habitable for their species, as a prelude to invasion. Archer and T’Pol discussed in the ready room in Act 2 of Harbinger the possibility that the Triannon creation myth was based on the principle that the aliens who created the Spheres did so in order to survive in that part of space. While an “invasion” was not specifically mentioned, I’m not surprised that Archer came to that conclusion after what the alien told him at the very end of that episode. Archer hardly had to state this conclusion explicitly in order for his statement to Daniels in this episode to ring true. Luigi Novi

Granted, it's just another thing that they could have cleared up with a quick line of dialouge, but didn't.

Had another thought. The Spehere-Builders are trying to Take Over the Galaxy. However, we saw in "Harbinger" that when one of their anomalies overtakes a planet, it kills off all the life there. So if they take over the galaxy, won't they just have a lot of extra space sitting around?

Perhaps T'Pol's strange weepy behavior is due to pregnancy?

This is actually stated explicitly by one of the MACOs (can't remember which one off the top of my head) in "The Expanse." - Sparrow47

Actually, we don't meet any of the MACOs in The Expanse. Are you thinking of The Xindi?


Perhaps T'Pol's strange weepy behavior is due to pregnancy? - Herbert

According to one spoiler I read: T'Pol has been secretly injecting herself with small doses of trellium, and has become addicted to it. I was joking when I guessed a few weeks ago... who knew I'd be right.

I'm still hoping she is pregnant and they name the baby T'Rip.

Yeah, Darth, I meant "The Xindi." Oops.

Not bad. Not bad at all.

If Daniels has all this information about the Sphere-builders and their involvement in events all the way up to the 26th century, why couldn’t he tell Archer the name of their species? Instead, he repeatedly refers to them simply as the "Sphere-builders." - Luigi Novi
This seems to be an indication that the Sphere-builders are a species that we recognize from other series, or a species that is allied to the Federation before this whole "temporal war" plot is discovered. If that is the case, giving Archer foreknowledge of this species would change how the Earth/Federation deals with that species at first contact, which would change Daniels' history.

A Prometheus-class ships also whizzes by in the opening scene of Act 2. So they’re still using Prometheus-class vessels 200 years after they were commissioned?- Luigi Novi
Today there is a movement in the automotive industry to bring back the classic look of older vehicles, with a contemporary twist. Perhaps Starfleet goes through a similar phase and decides to introduce a series of "classic look" vessels that incorporate modern technology. Or perhaps Starfleet finds that existing starships can be upgraded without loss of functionality, and they maintain their fleet of vessels far longer than was thought possible. Or maybe the battle that we glimpsed has the Federation in such a bind that they pull every mothballed starhip they can find and throw them into service.

T'Pol used a similar line as Janeway used in "The Cloud"

"Dismissed. (pause) That's a Starfleet expression for 'Get out'" Janeway to Neelix.

"Dismissed."
"Dismissed?"
"Get out."
T'Pol and Trip

This cliffhanger was spectacular. From the special effects, to the action inside the ship, to the music, which FINALLY had some feeling to it, I was floored. The music carried with it a doomed/desperate last battle feel to it, and the close-up into T'Pol's eyes was a dramatic touch. The Enterprise is torn to pieces like a whale slowly being devoured by sharks, eventually rolling onto its belly in its death throes. Whoa! One could say that the significance of the shot isn't as strong as it could have been, as NX-01 is so maneuverable we've seen it flying like the Millenium Falcon at times, but if you picture Kirk's Enterprise in the same shredded form, with the huge secondary hull going belly-up, you can understand how horrific it is to see a huge vessel in such a predicament. Was the shot of the crewmen being blown out into space gratuitous? In some respects, yes, but how many times have we heard about hull breaches on Enterprise-D or Voyager, which are calmly sealed with force fields, and not one life is lost? It detracts from the seriousness of a ship experiencing very serious damage, so the flying bodies bring home the fact that there are people on the inside of this ship.
I can't help but think that the Re-set Button will be pushed because;
1. The story was written in part by the Time Lords, Berman and Braga, so all kinds of life-threatening damage can be done, and simply turned back.
2. Daniels is in the story. He knows how that battle is supposed to go, so he might be written as the one with the magic re-set button.
3. The Enterprise is in no condition to go home. Who's going to fix it? Doesn't it look like it's beyond help? It should take months to put it back to what it once was.
3. The explosion that blew the three crewmen out was preceded by Trip and others staggering out of engineering. Was Trip one of the three lost men? If so, the writers would need him back.
The Xindi shuttle used a sub was great, too, combining what looked alot like real life ocean views above the surface with the SFX. Nice tip of the head to the Flying Sub, there, from Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea.
as for the talk about using 200-year old ships, nope, I don't buy it. It's crazy to use such archaic vessels, or to even think that they'd still be in use. The SFX guys shouldn't have shown any 25th century ships, or should have made a couple computer-generated models instead. I've got a problem with Miranda-class and Excelsior-class ships in TNG/DS9 time, let alone very, very, old ships used two centuries after they were built.
Otherwise, I can't wait to see how all this is resolved.

Jesse: As usual, Luigi, no one can put a shoddy argument past you!
Luigi Novi: (flexes his arms like Hans & Frans) HNNNHHH!!!!

Jesse: But the Breen entered the war only near the end with a massive fleet; how many battles did they fight in? And the Dominion has enough forces to keep a large portion of the Gamma Quadrant under their thumb.
Luigi Novi: Again, this is not clear. We don’t know if the Breen fleet is “massive,” and if it is, what exactly “massive” means. It would seem that the Breen did not care to ever engage the Federation in open war until they had the Dominion/Cardassians as allies, so this may suggest that by themselves, they would not be a threat. As for the Dominion, not only do we not know exactly how much of the Gamma Quadrant was under their control prior to The Search partI-II(DS9), we don’t know what their forces are now. We do know they were forced to surrender and put that surrender into writing, which you don’t do if you entirely have the upper hand.

Jesse: Now, please correct me if I'm wrong here, but the Dominion did NOT bow out of the war because it was losing. True, they were about to get forced out of the Alpha Quadrant, but that's like the US getting forced out of Vietnam. The Dominion ended the war because the Founders experienced a paradigm shift. The Female Founder, after being cured by Odo, realized that her people's perception of "solids" was incorrect and that the Dominion was waging an unjust war. She ordered the cease-fire because of this, not because of the strategic situation.
Luigi Novi: This was part of it (another was that Odo would agree to return to the Homeworld to cure the Link), but not all of it. The Dominion was suffering losses. That’s why they had to bring the Breen in, as Weyoun told Damar in that last nine-episode arc (in Strange Bedfellows(DS9), IIRC).

Jesse: Also, remember that the Dominion/Cardassian SHIPYARDS were always targets. That implies that there was a great deal of building in the Alpha quadrant. Yet the Dominion was able to bring thousands of ships from their side of the galaxy to here when needed. The conclusion that can be drawn is that much of the Dominion losses were ships built since the start of the pre-war buildup, not necessarily their own native forces.
Luigi Novi: Up until The Sacrifice of Angels(DS9), they used both. After that, I believe they used AQ-built ships because the Prophets would not let reinforcements through the wormhole.

Jesse: No one ever invaded Breen space and attacked them.
Luigi Novi: We don’t know that. As interstellar wars go, we were told relatively little about the details of the theaters in which engagements occurred, and no indication that engagements did not take place in Breen space.

Luigi Novi: As established where? Admiral Haden made clear in The Wounded(TNG) that it was.

Jesse: I was wrong here. I always remember this war being classified as a border war, but I looked back at some of the mat'ls in question and found that it probably was a full-on war. My mistake. And I forgot about the Tzenkethi, BUT Startrek.com describes the war as "border wars." By definition these are not terribly serious. Michigan and Ohio once engaged in border wars.
Luigi Novi: I don’t see why any kind of hot war would not be serious. Whether border wars in general or the Michigan-Ohio border wars are/were not serious doesn’t mean that the Federation/Cardassian War was not, particularly since again, Admiral Haden indicated that it was. If you’re on a disputed planet, and Cardassian ships show up and blow up your entire colony, that’s pretty darn serious, IMO.

Jesse: As far as Janeway's truce with S8472....this is a race that invaded this galaxy and took on the Federation's worst menace, actually overpowering them. This makes them a potentially serious threat. Regardless of whether or not they have made peace, they are still out there and the Federation must take them into account when calculating future risk. Until the Federation concludes an actual peace treaty, the "truce" worked out by a starship captain is not solid.
Luigi Novi: My point is that they do not appear to be interested in an invasion after the events of In the Flesh, not because a truce worked out by a starship captain is solid or not in any legalistic sense, but because she seems to have convinced them that the Federation is not a threat to them. Yeah, they’re a “potentially serious threat” in the same way that the Klingons are: They’re a powerful species with whom relations haven’t been perfect.

Jesse: Now, the Borg. I guess I can't say what is up with them. Maybe Adm. Janeway did some serious damage. However, they're not dead or dying. They are very resilient and adaptable, as we've seen time and time again. They adapted to Hugh's individuality (there was still a collective after he and his people split off, powerful enough to invade Earth) and they will continue to adapt. They've been around a long time. There quite simply is no way that this enemy was damaged by the actions of one pathetic woman and her •••••• pathogen.
Luigi Novi: We don’t know that one way or the other. There is the possibility that the pathogen Admiral Janeway came up with had an advantage derived from its futuristic nature, and that she used her expertise with the Borg to create one that couldn’t be adapted or assimilated. But as of now, we don’t know one way or the other.

Jesse: But there is no evidence that either the Breen or the Dominion has been significantly weakened by the war. This makes them viable enemies.
Luigi Novi: Which is why, IMO, the Federation should be using newer ships instead of old ones, as I stated before.

Christopher Q: I was confused on this point. Did Daniels time- travel to E-J, or did the entire E-J time-travel? Daniels did have that coin from a member of the crew.
Luigi Novi: Daniels did. The E-J was busy fighting the Sphere-Builders in the Battle of Procyon V, remember?

Luigi Novi: But where was there a Nova-class ship?

Kazeite: Here.
Luigi Novi: Possibly. But it’s so far away, and so much of it is obscured by the characters standing there that we can’t be absolutely sure. It could be a Nova, one that looks similar to it, or a derivative of it. (Keep in mind that a Soyuz, for example is just a Miranda with some superficial modifications.)

Kazeite: Latest news: There's also a Vor'cha present during the battle - it enters frame when ship above blows up
Luigi Novi: The only ship in that frame other than the Sphere-builder ship and the possible Nova ship is a tiny dot that’s totally unidentifiable. How can you identify it as a Vor’cha?

Darth Sarcasm: You're right... a scan would probably reveal the existence of a weapon aboard the shuttle. However, it didn't look like they bothered to scan an Insectoid shuttle that looks like it belongs there... they didn't seem to scan it to reveal there were two humans operating it earlier. But the likelihood of being detected would increase if a torpedo were attached to the exterior of the hull.
Luigi Novi: I think the fact that they can’t detect human life signs is a nit itself. They should be able to differentiate life signs, IMO, and detect the torpedoes aboard, which is why the detection of the torpedoes on board should be no different than the detection of them underneath it.

Darth Sarcasm: Suicide bombers don't generally walk out onto the street with an explosive device strapped on the outside of their clothes... they usually conceal the device (even though the existence of such a device could be detected if one looks closely enough).
Luigi Novi: Because those things could be detected with the naked eye. I don’t think ships in the future in Trek are spotted by other ships stations in this way, but by instrumentation.

Darth Sarcasm: I'm confused here... it sounds like you're disagreeing with me, but then you say everything that I already stated.
Luigi Novi: I wasn’t disagreeing. I was confirming what you suspected. You said that the scenes suggested that Degra told Archer this information in Stratagem. I reviewed the scene, and Archer flat-out told Degra that Degra had told him this in that episode.

Zarm Rkeeg: By the way... anybody else curious who "She" is?
Luigi Novi: Yep.

Sparrow47: This is actually stated explicitly by one of the MACOs (can't remember which one off the top of my head) in "The Expanse." He says "As soon as you find the weapon, our work can begin." Or words to that effect.
Luigi Novi: No, what Hayes told Hoshi in the Mess Hall in Act 1 of The Xindi (not The Expanse, since they hadn’t yet appeared then) was “The quicker you folks find these Xindi, quicker we can get to work.”

Sparrow47: He mentioned the Federation, but he never said specifically what it was.
Luigi Novi: That’s not the point.

You said Daniels went from “Not-talking-about-the-Federation-at-all…” He did no such thing, because most certainly did talk about it. The fact that he mentioned more detail in this episode is not a contradiction of that, nor a nit.

Luigi Novi: I don’t see how these two things are contradictory. What does knowing where the Enterprise is and what it’s up to have to do with how many other ships are in the Expanse?

Sparrow47: The point is, the Xindi knew the Enterprise was around as soon as it showed up. Given that, they should know good and well that no other Earth ships have entered as well.
Luigi Novi: First, no they didn’t. Second, it’s irrelevant.

1. The Xindi Council first mentioned that according to the Reptilian member’s contacts, the Enterprise entered the Expanse in the Council’s very first appearance in the teaser of The Xindi, which was six weeks after the Enterprise entered the Expanse, as Archer mentions to Reed in the Command Center in the opening scene of Act 1 of that episode. Six weeks is not “as soon as it showed up.”

2. The fact that the Xindi have detected one ship in the Expanse has absolutely nothing to do with knowing how many other Earth ships are in the Expanse. The fact that they detected one doesn’t mean that there is only one. The Council members themselves discuss this question in the same scene mentioned above:

Primate: “It could simply be a coincidence.”
Reptilian: “You’re being naïve. Their planet is fifty light years away. “It is not a coincidence.”
Primate: “How do you know your contacts gave you accurate information?”
Insectoid: “It’s the beginning of an invasion! Hundreds of Earth ships will follow!”

So in other words, as far as the Primate is concerned, the reliability of the Reptilian’s contacts is in question, and as far as the Insectoid is concerned, the presence of one ship could indicate hundreds more behind it.

“We know there is a ship in the Expanse” does not = “We know exactly how many ships are in the Expanse.”

Sparrow47: Again, I think Daniels said something like the Sphere-builders were one of the Federation's greatest threats, and he also said that if the Federation hadn't stopped them, the Sphere-builders would have conquered the galaxy, which means the Federation was the baddest game in town at that point (which I find hard to believe) because otherwise, the Sphere-builders could have been halted by the Borg, the Dominion, etc.
Luigi Novi: First of all, he said that if the Federation had lost, the Sphere-builders would’ve “spread throughout the galaxy” and “wiped out everything.” Even if he had said they were one of the Federation’s greatest threats (he actually didn’t, though), this would have been apt not only because a group of beings that could do “spread throughout the galaxy and wipe out everything” would seem to fit that bill, but also because the “one of” qualifier (your words, not mine) indicates moderation rather than exaggeration in speech. Saying that a race that could “spread throughout the galaxy and wipe out everything” certainly would be one of the Federation’s greatest threats, but is not the same thing as saying that they are “more dangerous than the Borg and the Dominion,” as you put it. Such a race would be potentially as dangerous as the Borg or Dominion.

Second, there’s another point I didn’t mention when I originally responded to your nit:

We don’t know if the Borg or the Dominion are still around by the 26th Century.

So there is nothing in Daniels’ statement about the Sphere-builders that’s a nit.

Sparrow47: But wasn't what destroyed Daniels' equipment the fact that when he pulled Archer forward, the timeline went screwy?
Luigi Novi: Yes, but that’s not the same thing as saying that pulling people forward in time in and of itself does this. It only did so that time, because of some miscalculation that was never specified in that episode. Daniels gave no indication that this was a never-before-attempted practice, which is presumably why he was so bewildered by it.

Sparrow47: Granted, it's just another thing that they could have cleared up with a quick line of dialouge, but didn't.
Luigi Novi: It was already pretty clear to me. After what the Sphere-builder told Archer at the very end of Harbinger, I got it. Archer’s allusion to Daniels of a conclusion he came to didn’t have to be spelled out for me in detail.

Sparrow47: Had another thought. The Spehere-Builders are trying to Take Over the Galaxy. However, we saw in "Harbinger" that when one of their anomalies overtakes a planet, it kills off all the life there. So if they take over the galaxy, won't they just have a lot of extra space sitting around?
Luigi Novi: Perhaps that’s what they want.

Obi-Juan: This seems to be an indication that the Sphere-builders are a species that we recognize from other series, or a species that is allied to the Federation before this whole "temporal war" plot is discovered.
Luigi Novi: But the alien in Harbinger didn’t resemble any of the few trans-dimensional races (Species 8472, the solanagen-based aliens from Schisms(TNG), etc.) that we’ve previously seen.

Will: The explosion that blew the three crewmen out was preceded by Trip and others staggering out of engineering. Was Trip one of the three lost men?
Luigi Novi: Unlikely. They would’ve made it clear that it was him if it was.

Luigi Novi: (flexes his arms like Hans & Frans) HNNNHHH!!!!

:: No offense, Luigi, but that’s the sorriest-looking “crab” (aka “most muscular”) pose ever.
OK, try this: spread your lats, squeeze your pecs and abs, hunch up your trap, chin down and in. NOW, flex your arms and go HNNNHHH!!!!

Luigi Novi: I don’t see why any kind of hot war would not be serious. Whether border wars in general or the Michigan-Ohio border wars are/were not serious doesn’t mean that the Federation/Cardassian War was not, particularly since again, Admiral Haden indicated that it was. If you’re on a disputed planet, and Cardassian ships show up and blow up your entire colony, that’s pretty darn serious, IMO.
I wasn't clear here. I'm agreeing that the Cardassian War was serious. What I'm speculating is that the Tzenkethi war was not. AS to a hot war not being serious...a border war could be a few isolated skirmishes between starships, with a few ships lost here and there. Serious to those who lost loved ones or property, but overall they might not put a dent in the Federation.

Jesse: But there is no evidence that either the Breen or the Dominion has been significantly weakened by the war. This makes them viable enemies.
Luigi Novi: Which is why, IMO, the Federation should be using newer ships instead of old ones, as I stated before.
Oh, I agree they should be using new ships. I think they should be developing new ones and upgrading old ones like crazy because of the last ten years. However, my conjecture has been that the recent events might cause the Federation to rethink mothballing older ships, as well, in addition to building new ones. IF the battle at Procyon V was very serious, I could see Starfleet digging everything out of mothballs and throwing it at the Sphere-builders.

Luigi Novi: Again, this is not clear. We don’t know if the Breen fleet is “massive,” and if it is, what exactly “massive” means. It would seem that the Breen did not care to ever engage the Federation in open war until they had the Dominion/Cardassians as allies, so this may suggest that by themselves, they would not be a threat.
Well, according to Worf, the Klingons twice sent fleets to the Breen homeworld and never heard from them again. Any race with enough power to obliterate two Klingon fleets without so much as a peep is not to be trifled with. Granted, maybe they didn't have the power to knock over the Klingon/Federation alliance by themselves, but they came in with a roar and hit hard. And, while you're right that we didn't know much about the other theaters of war, they did come in near the end of the war, so their losses were conceivably less than the Dominion's.

Luigi Novi: As for the Dominion, not only do we not know exactly how much of the Gamma Quadrant was under their control prior to The Search partI-II(DS9), we don’t know what their forces are now. We do know they were forced to surrender and put that surrender into writing, which you don’t do if you entirely have the upper hand.
I'm not suggesting they had the upper hand. But the Dominion did not LOSE the war. Consider yet another Jesse-trademarked historical analogy: Germany after WWI. Their allies, Austria and the Ottoman Empire, were thoroughly weakened and on the verge of collapse (both gov'ts would soon fall after the war ended). The Allies, with the exception of the US, were also weak, and Russia was out the war for good. But Germany was largely intact. True, she had suffered great losses during the war. But, as a country, her industry, her economy, her infrastructure, and her government was intact. The decision to end the war was a political decision. There was no firm consensus on the Allies' part to press the war to Berlin; all but the US field commander Pershing wanted to sue for peace. In the end, Germany accepted a harsh treaty and blame for the war, not because she could no longer fight, but because the political situation made it the best course of acion.

The situation seems remarkably similar. Being on the other side of the wormhole, the Dominion (Germany) did not suffer the losses of having battles occur in their own territory. They had a 60,000 l-y buffer beteen themselves and the Alpha Quadrant. They did lose heavily in the Alpha Quadrant, but those losses also included Cardassian losses and Dominion ships built since the start of the pre-war buildup. With the Cardassians exhausted and no longer willing/able to serve as an Alpha Quadrant base and with the Prophets locking out the wormhole, they had to accept defeat and save their forces over here, since the military situation had turned against them. That is not the same as defeat, and it says nothing about the Dominion's overall military situation in their own quadrant. The decision to end the war was clearly political, not based on a failing strategic situation. Also, the fact that the Founders "got religion" suddenly seems to argue against the fact that they needed to surrender. However, as for the Dominion's overall health, it seems likely that they still are strong and could continue to pose a threat. What if Section 31 panics and infects them again? What if the Founders' newfound faith in the solids wavers? What if the Breen convince them to have another go at the Federation?

As far as the Borg goes, I cannot accept that anything one person could do would stop them. They've been around for a while, so I doubt that 20 or 30 years of Federation advancements would incapacitate them that much. And as for S8472, it's true that they don't seem to have an interest in attacking the Federation. But until they can demonstrate that desire, they're still in the "possible enemy" column.

Does this mean that Luigi has "Pumpitude", and the rest of us are all girly-nitpickers?

(No offense intended towards our wonderful female contingent).

Whoa, wait a minute, Luigi. You say that 'Russia was out of the war for good', and 'Germany was largely intact', and 'her government was intact'. Feel free to give a thorough explanation for your statement (and we all know you will ), but it was Russia that pushed into Berlin, and dealt with Hitler's staff that hid down in the Bunkers. Germany wasn't about to defeat the Russians, because they were able to hold back Germany. And as someone whose relatives served as one of the Allies, the statement that they were 'weak' also seems unlikely, because the Nazi's never overran Britain, even though they pounded the crapp out of it. Absolutely, the U.S. entry into World War 2 was the deciding factor, but American soldiers didn't fight as long as the Allies did, as the war started in 1939, not December 7, 1941. How would the American army and navy look after those additional two years of battle is anybody's guess. But Germany was not in any shape to continue the war, economically, because it was losing territory, resources, manpower, and its own allies. She could no longer fight, because crazy ol' Hitler was ordering non-existent armies to attack, by 1945.

Hey Matt,
WWI, not WWII J

Matt: Whoa, wait a minute, Luigi. You say that 'Russia was out of the war for good', and 'Germany was largely intact', and 'her government was intact'...
Luigi Novi: No, that was Jesse.

I wasn’t disagreeing. I was confirming what you suspected. - Luigi

Thanks for the clarification. I was confused when you opened with the word "actually," which sounded (to me) like a correction. But then everything that followed was what I stated.


a border war could be a few isolated skirmishes between starships, with a few ships lost here and there. Serious to those who lost loved ones or property, but overall they might not put a dent in the Federation. - Jesse

Couldn't you characterize WW2 as a "border war"?

Wrong war, Matt. I'm talking about WW One, not Two.

Darth Sarcasm: Couldn't you characterize WW2 as a "border war"?
I can't classify WW2 as a border war because European borders pretty much evaporated during the war. Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, the Netherlands, northeastern France, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, and Greece were occupied by Germany, and Italy conquered Albania, Libya, Tunisia, and Ethiopia, not to mention the fact that Hungary, Romania, and Finland all became puppet states of the Reich. In the east, almost the entire Pacific Rim was absorbed by Japan, as well as Korea, French Indochina, Manchuria, and large portions of China. In other words, a massive portion of the world fell under the domination of the Rome-Tokyo-Berlin Axis. There were engagements on all continents except North America and Anarctica. This cannot be classified in any stretch of the word as a border war.

And there were (perhaps not 'engagements', but) attacks on North America. The Pacific Northwest was attacked by Japanese "balloon bombs", killing several civilians, and a refinery in California, a radio station on Vancouver Island, and a coastal defense port in Oregon were all shelled by Japanese submarines.

Engagements did take place in North American waters, however, several very close to the West Coast.

Luigi Novi: Possibly. But it’s so far away, and so much of it is obscured by the characters standing there that we can’t be absolutely sure. It could be a Nova, one that looks similar to it, or a derivative of it.
Well, it sure looks like Nova to me. Or derivative, which doesn't look so much different

Luigi Novi: The only ship in that frame other than the Sphere-builder ship and the possible Nova ship is a tiny dot that’s totally unidentifiable. How can you identify it as a Vor’cha?
I didn't mean this particular frame. Watch the episode when ship above blows up and keep an eye on the left side of the screen. Just before scene cuts back to interior with Archer and Daniels shielding their eyes, another ship enters frame from that direction.

Or, you can see this screengrab

First of all, that shot never appears in the episode. In the episode (which is already letterboxed as it is), the shot is cropped. That ship never enters the frame. I would wonder where and how the author of that site got that screengrab, and if it's authentic.

Second, even if it's authentic, that ship (assuming it's a ship), while consistent with a Vor'cha, cannot be positively identified as a Vor'cha. It could be an entirely different vessel, and for all we know, not even a Klingon ship. For one thing, we only see the forward half of it. The aft half could be nothing like a Vor'cha. Second, Daniels indicates to Archer that the Klingons are part of the Federation by the 26th century. Why would they be using different ships?

Sparrow47: Had another thought. The Spehere-Builders are trying to Take Over the Galaxy. However, we saw in "Harbinger" that when one of their anomalies overtakes a planet, it kills off all the life there. So if they take over the galaxy, won't they just have a lot of extra space sitting around?
Luigi Novi: Maybe they have Golden Retrievers.

The boards up to 141K

Daniels indicates to Archer that the Klingons are part of the Federation by the 26th century. Why would they be using different ships?

Why not? Vulcans still have their own ships in the 24th century, and humans have civilian and science ships outside of Starfleet's jurisdiction, so who's to say the Klingons wouldn't keep some of the old babies around?

Luigi Novi: Daniels indicates to Archer that the Klingons are part of the Federation by the 26th century. Why would they be using different ships?

In the DS9 episode where Sisko prevents Bajor from joining the Federation, mention is made of integrating the Bajoran militia into Stafleet (I believe this is the ep where the line is spoken). If that's the case, it's possible that the Klingon military would be integrated into Starfleet. As to whether the crews would be kept intact or mixed up, I couldn't say, although there seems to be all-Vulcan starships (the Intrepid from the TOS "The Immunity Syndrome" and the Vulcan ship from DS9 "Take me out to the Holosuite" come to mind). Maybe the Klingon command structure would be left intact.

Captain Bryce: Why not? Vulcans still have their own ships in the 24th century
Luigi Novi: Since when? The only 24th century Vulcan ships I know of are the dinky little ones from Unification partII, and those were hardly war ships.

Captain Bryce:and humans have civilian and science ships outside of Starfleet's jurisdiction, so who's to say the Klingons wouldn't keep some of the old babies around?
Luigi Novi: I didn't say anything about civilian or science ships. I'm talking about ships used in battle. Isn't Starfleet unified in that area?

Jesse: In the DS9 episode where Sisko prevents Bajor from joining the Federation, mention is made of integrating the Bajoran militia into Stafleet (I believe this is the ep where the line is spoken). If that's the case, it's possible that the Klingon military would be integrated into Starfleet.
Luigi Novi: Rapture(DS9). Personally, I've always seen that episode as another example of the creators' inability to distinguish between interstellar affairs and civil affairs, like Paris' line in Thirty Days(VOY) about the "Federation Maritime" patrol. To me, member planets should keep their internal forces to police sovereign matters.

But using Bajoran ships as part of Starfleet? That makes no sense. Bajoran ships are antiquated and weak. Does it really make sense to have Starfleet vessels running around policing Federation space, but using Bajoran rustbuckets in some areas?

Jesse: As to whether the crews would be kept intact or mixed up, I couldn't say, although there seems to be all-Vulcan starships (the Intrepid from the TOS "The Immunity Syndrome" and the Vulcan ship from DS9 "Take me out to the Holosuite" come to mind).
Luigi Novi: Which were Starfleet vessels. Not Vulcan ships.

Jesse: Maybe the Klingon command structure would be left intact.
Luigi Novi: ????? They joined the Federation, but the Klingon command structure, which includes killing subordinates for incompetence, and challenging your immediate superior to death for the same, would remain? I'm sorry, but I don't buy that.

Luigi Novi: I didn't say anything about civilian or science ships. I'm talking about ships used in battle. Isn't Starfleet unified in that area?

Does being a member of the Federation mandate that you be a member of Starfleet?

Luigi Novi: Luigi Novi: Rapture(DS9). Personally, I've always seen that episode as another example of the creators' inability to distinguish between interstellar affairs and civil affairs, like Paris' line in Thirty Days(VOY) about the "Federation Maritime" patrol. To me, member planets should keep their internal forces to police sovereign matters.
Preaching to the choir, Luigi. I've been saying this for a while. It seems like member planets ought to keep their own militias for local patrol, law enforcement, and even defense if necessary (i.e., Betazed being captured when a particular Starfleet force was lured away...although a militia might not have mattered too much).

Luigi Novi: Which were Starfleet vessels. Not Vulcan ships.
I agree with this. I was showing how a ship could be Starfleet but still be crewed by a single race. I'm not suggesting that the Klingons will still have their own fleet after they join the Federation; that's what Capt. Bryce was saying. I'm just wondering if, because of the speculation that there was a Vor'cha-class cruiser at Procyon V, if Klingon ships will become Starfleet but remain all-Klingon (a la the Intrepid and Solok's ship) or if they will be integrated and be effectively no different than other Starfleet vessels.

Luigi Novi: ????? They joined the Federation, but the Klingon command structure, which includes killing subordinates for incompetence, and challenging your immediate superior to death for the same, would remain? I'm sorry, but I don't buy that.
Just an idle speculation here. I wasn't thinking that in-depth about it. There are many elements of Klingon discipline that fly in the face of Starfleet military law. However, as we've seen, Klingons are a proud people with strong cultural traditions. Maybe there is an exception for them because of the vast difference in culture.

However, I did have an interesting thought about Klingons joining the Federation. We know from various sources (TOS "A Private Little War", TNG "The Mind's Eye", and DS9 "The Way of the Warrior, Part II") that the Klingon Empire includes occupied worlds that aren't inhabited by Klingons. Now, based on various lines of evidence (TNG "Attached" and TNG "The Hunted") we know that the Federation has high standards for admittance. It does not seem possible that the Klingon Empire, with its occupied colonies, would qualify for admission. I wonder, then, if the Klingons were forced to withdraw from these worlds prior to joining the Federation. If so, a sizable portion of the Empire may have been stripped away in the process. This might mean that the Klingon fleet and army would be dramatically reduced in size. Again, I'm just speculating here. Any thoughts?

Luigi Novi: On Voyager, this appeared to be due to a total lack of a cohesive, consistent vision for the series, a notion supported by what Ronald D. Moore has stated about working on the staff for that show.

Out of curiousity, where did you find this? I'd like to read what he had to say.

If the Klingon Empire joined the Federation at some point, I doubt that they would have dismantled their starship fleet. They probably just put it in mothballs or used the ships for 'internal affairs.' Subsequently, at the battle with the Spherebuilders, the Federation is apparently throwing everything at the enemy, including 100+ year old ship types. I don't think that it's impossible that they would mobilize some ships leftover from the old Klingon Imperial days.

Luigi Novi: First of all, that shot never appears in the episode.
Um, come again? This shot appears in my version as well. It's nice, slow explosion, with this Vor'cha-like ship flying at slow speed. As far as I can tell, it is authentic. (Unless this is some kind of giant conspiracy which involved faking this footage )

Second, even if it's authentic, that ship (assuming it's a ship), while consistent with a Vor'cha, cannot be positively identified as a Vor'cha.
Vor'cha, however, is the closest match. And possible reasons for presence of Klingon ships were already given.

Jesse: Out of curiousity, where did you find this? I'd like to read what he had to say.
Luigi Novi:

Part 1 is here.
Part 2 is here.
Part 3 is here.
Part 4 is here.

Kazeite: Um, come again? This shot appears in my version as well. It's nice, slow explosion, with this Vor'cha-like ship flying at slow speed. As far as I can tell, it is authentic. (Unless this is some kind of giant conspiracy which involved faking this footage )
Luigi Novi: You’re saying it was in the broadcast? You’re positive of this? That’s odd. It’s cropped off on the left in mine.

Kazeite: Vor'cha, however, is the closest match.
Luigi Novi: Was the entire ship seen, or only the forward half of it, as in the screengrab?

Sparrow 47: Gratuitous bit #1- having the future ship be the Enterprise. It's not really a nit, it just struck me as unnessecary.


The local UPN station ran the Illinois basketball game that ended earlier than expected, evidently, because I taped only the last twenty minutes of the episode. Did I miss something? Was the ship being destroyed not the real Enterprise, but a future one? I figured there must be some plot twist to having the ship destroyed, or they would not be able to finish the season.
Thanks.

Nope, Daniels brought Archer to the future near the beginning of the episode, where we were introduced to the Enterprise-J. He's only aboard it for a couple of minutes before Daniels sends him back to the 2150s. The Enterprise at the end of the episode is, indeed, the NX-01, getting it's [donkey] handed to it.

Luigi Novi: Was the entire ship seen, or only the forward half of it, as in the screengrab?

Dan Gunther: I just reviewed the episode again, and it is definitely a Vor'Cha. Either that, or a ship with the *exact same* outline as the Vor'Cha. I experimented with pausing the scene quickly at the crucial moment. After a few attempts, I managed to pause it just before it cuts to Archer and Daniels. You can see the entire first half of the ship, as well as the fronts of the warp nacelles and pylons. Whether or not this is *supposed* to be a Vor'Cha, it is clear that that is what the creators used in the scene. Hope this clears a few things up.

So why the hell was it cropped when I saw it and taped it? Grrrrrr.......

Luigi, perhaps your TV "overscans". I noticed a difference between two of mine when I watched and taped the Oscars last week. In one segment, there were title cards to the extreme edges of the screen. On one TV, it read "hot in the Dark". Checking the tape on the other TV, it showed the full title "A Shot in the Dark".

Maybe it's time for a widescreen TV... ;)

What's overscanning?

Would that be

what's
--------
scanning

Its
____

ScottN


because in the end...


me
____

ScottN

Luigi: It is broken.
Geordi: No problem. We'll just play your tape in someone else's machine.
Luigi: Will it go now?
Geordi: Yes, as long as your friend's machine isn't overscanning too.
Luigi: He is smart.
(Phaser fire)

You realize what this means? Luigi haven't seen appr. 10% of each episode!

So instead of watching Azati Prime he was actually watching Azati Prim? ;-)

Kazeite: You realize what this means? Luigi haven't seen appr. 10% of each episode!
Luigi Novi: AAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!

I'm not 100% sure that "overscan" is the correct term, but I think you got the picture. (Well, 90% of it anyway....)

This episode establishes that (in an unperturbed timeline) the Expanse will exist until the mid-26th Century, when the Sphere Builders will be defeated at the Battle of Procyon V. In addition, it establishes that the Expanse will grow until it is 50000 l.y. in diameter. This is halfway across the galaxy. Yet, there is no mention of this in the 24th century. It *MUST* have grown between the 22nd century and the 24th century.

Another nit. My statement in the previous paragraph says 50000ly in diameter. I believe Daniel's exact words were "50000 ly in all direction", which actually implies a 100000ly diameter. However, this would encompass the entire Milky Way galaxy. This line of dialog MUST be considered a nit.

N.N.A.N.: When the Reptilian taunts Archer by talking about his race being superior because it's cold-blooded, and Archer then responds by his death-of-the-dinosaurs routine, and he says (paraphrasing) "sure, the reptiles could've reconquered the Earth, but-" I was sure he was going to say something like "they were cold-blooded, so they died when the sun was blacked out by the dust cloud" which neatly turns the Reptilian's taunt on its head as well as being scientifically correct. Instead he comes out with that "'cause their brains were the size of a plum" thing, which seems overly crude.

Mind you, you try being eloquent when you're being tortured!

I thought that the dinosaurs went to live in the Delta Quadrent?

The dinosaurs that evolved into sentient humanoids, yeah, but not their non-sentient antecedants, which were wiped out, and besides, Archer doesn't know that yet.

Actually most species of dinosaur were dead long before the Cretaceous disaster. Dinosaurs lived over a 150 million year span of time of & each species (350 -400 known?) was only around for a couple of million years or so. One reference I read, years ago, estimated that only about 12 species were known to be around prior to the K/T boundary.

It's true that there was a gradual die-off prior to the K/T boundary, which has confused scientists somewhat, but one does have to realise that the likelihood of any fossil forming is miniscule. The fossil record represents only an infinitisimal catchment of all the species that ever existed on Earth, and trying to prove that such-and-such a species didn't exist at any particular time is considerably harder than proving it did.

As an example, in 1990 (say) the most famous dinosaur was the Tyrannosaurus rex. How many fossil skeletons of this media-savvy beast had ever been recovered? I'll tell you: three. That ain't a big sample size.

After Jurassic Park, there was sufficient public interest to fund some more fossil-hunting expeditions and the number of T. rex fossil skeletons has now gone up to the grand total of six. And this is a pretty good example for fossilisation of a large-scale animal, i.e. just about any dinosaur.

So, simply, the jury is still out on just about everything to do with the K/T extinction.

Hey, haven't we got a bit off topic?

No, because it pertains to a bit of dialogue from the episode.

If the Xindi do end up joining the Federation, and assuming this is the same timeline as the rest of Trek, why don't later Enterprises have their spatial vortex technology? (never mind their planet-destroying superweapon probes, but I assume this technology was at least partly the work of the Sphere-Builders who told them about Earth - after all in "The Expanse" some of its components appeared to be from the future).

I've been trying to think of limitations like 'it only works in the Expanse', but that doesn't work because the probe from "The Expanse" (and the big probe in "Twilight") used a vortex to get from the Expanse to Earth.

Actually, it would make sense if the vortices could only be used between a few certain well-mapped points - that way it might explain how the later Enterprises can get from wherever they are to Earth, Vulcan, Kronos, etc in just a few days (I'm thinking primarily of the old how-far-from-DS9-is-Earth debate) but not use them for exploration or to get Voyager home.

The problem being that presumably the Xindi hadn't mapped the locality of Earth before launching their first probe. Maybe the Sphere-Builders gave them information?

Maybe the vortices are made possible by the spheres themselves. Sort of like the Borg's Transwarp Hub thing-a-majig.

Maybe the beginning point has to be in the Expanse and that’s why the first weapon didn’t return to the Expanse after its attack. Another possibility: maybe the spheres (or even the anomalies) somehow enable the vortices to form and since the spheres were destroyed, the vortices can’t be created. Of course, there may be things in the episodes that contradict my great theories.

I think Daniels argument to Archer to negotiate was very solid - that the Xindi would just build another weapon if this one was destroyed and would continue the war. It seems that diplomacy really is what's needed....

That? Was a terrific episode. They're really turning things up as we head to the end of the Xindi arc, and I like where it's going. That ending was spectacular too. The {Enteprise} is getting pounded in the nacelles. That poor little ship. I can't wait to see the end of this season.

Sparrow47: Was it just me, or was Daniels maybe a little too glib with his information this time around? He went from "Not-talking-about-the-Federation-at-all to "Federation History 101," and it seemed a little uncharacteristic of him. The guy must be getting desperate.

Luigi Novi: It appears that by the 2150’s, it has been determined that the asteroid that struck the Earth and killed the dinosaurs 65 million years ago was a comet, as Archer tells the Xindi Reptilian interrogator in Act 3.
Unless Archer is just stating one of many theories that still exist at that time.

Luigi Novi: The Xindi-reptilian ships are not only shaped like the horseshoe-crab-shaped Son’a ships, as I mentioned in Rajiin, but as we see in the opening shot of Act 1, even have a large array projecting up from their dorsal side, also like the Son’a ships.
They seem much longer and narrower to me.

Luigi Novi: At the end of Act 1, when Archer steps onto the Enterprise-J, 400 years into the future, the last ship we see zoom past the window is a Prometheus-class ship, which first appeared when it was being tested in Message in a Bottle(VOY). A Prometheus-class ships also whizzes by in the opening scene of Act 2. So they’re still using Prometheus-class vessels 200 years after they were commissioned? By contrast, the Enterprise-J itself looks at least somewhat different.
For one thing, it could just be that the design was found to be successful enough to last two centuries. And another, if they could build ships in the 23rd century that could last for 90+ years and still hold their own in battle, I'm sure by the 24th, 25th, and 26th centuries they've probably found ways to make them last even longer.

Influx: How come none of the other races put the names of their ships on the outside like the Federation does? (And apparently the Vulcans do, recalling the Surak from ST:TMP).
I believe that the Klingons do. You know, in Klingon.

I really felt strongly reminded of Star Wars IV: first, there's the comm station on the moon rotating, and then there's the superweapon that has to be destroyed by putting two torpedoes in the right place...

Archer's understanding of biology when taunting the repitiloid is strange. First, the dinosaurs where around for 150 mil. years - that's not a bad record! (And the "brain size of a walnut" statement has been long disproven, I thought?) Secondly, that the mammals/ warm-blooded species took over after the comet/asteroid/big rock fell from the sky ins't because of superiority. There have been many mass extincitions in earth history due to comets/asteroids and ice ages, and every time another group explored the suddenly free arena of life (so to speak). There isn't anything inherent in biology that says that mammals end up at the top of the food chain because they're superior, its just the way it happened on earth.

Of course, Grinka has the real reason not to believe Archer: he went in with two torpedoes to destroy the weapon, and now he tries diplomacy, because his original mission failed. If he had contacted them before flying in, or went in an unarmed shuttle, he would've been believable.

Does anybody else find it odd that Archer does a 180-turn after Hatchery, where he wanted to protect the kiddies because it would help diplomacy, but now flat-out refuses any diplomacy? (Is there any way to prove that he helped the little kiddies, ie. did he leave some note there? Could he tell the Xindis now, in an effort to prove that he doesn't want to wipe out their species, only destroy their weapon? Or will that happen in part II?)
Maybe Archer is ashamed that he fell under the influence of the alien goo and wants to prove that he is no friends with the enemy?

I haven't seen much of the Xindi arc, so I wonder: do the reptilian interrogators know Archer is the captain? (Or does it say so on his uniform? In that case, shame on him for not wearing an unobtrusive outfit!) Why not believe him when he says that his superiors don't tell him anything?
Of course, that's also one of the reasons why sending Travis would've been a better idea... He never talks!
I expected T'Pol to call Archer on the illogic of his suicide mission, that he's more important on the Enterprise. (She doesn't know about Twilight, but still... I thought it was supposed to harken back to Kirk's dashing days, but with Archer it doesn't seem to fit, esp. since Kirk specialized in fistfights, not flying shuttles, and Travis is obviously the best choice.)

Considering that humans of the future will be more enlightened etc. than temporary ones, I found Archers riling of the reptiloid interrogator about turtle menus in a San Francisco restaurant very barbaric. How would he have reacted if the reptiloid had told him they eat baby monkeys?
It's also a bad move considering he's trying to convince the Xindis that humans aren't intent on wiping them out if he admits that humans eat other species related to the reptiloids!
(I also dislike this typical hero's attitude of taunting the torturer while being beaten. To me, it diminishes the people who are tortured in real life and have to struggle not to disclose their secrets, not to betray their friends and allies, through terrible pain, while Archer not only doesn't worry about giving in, but is so un-harmed by the punishment that he taunts his interrogator to get mad at him, indicating that he can bear a lot more. I find this a bit tasteless, esp. when compared to eg. Stewarts portrait of torture in TNG "Chain of Command", where he read up on AI reports about torture victims to play it real.)

Constanze: How would he have reacted if the reptiloid had told him they eat baby monkeys?

Me: Clearly you haven't seen "Countdown" or "Zero Hour" yet... (No spoilers at all there...)

Are these fourth season eps? But I also missed a lot of third season (second season, first season) due to the stopid TV station here (moving Enterprise from different timeslots, starting and stopping seasons without warning) plus, I don't like Enterprise as much as the previous shows, so when it's on during an inconvienit time, I don't bother to tape it, just miss it.

I still think that - considering so far the humans of the future are more enlightened - turtle soup and similar shouldn't be considered "correct" to eat. (I mean, judging from the disgust shown by Kirk & Co. during ST IV about how humans extinguished the whales... Not to forget the cruelty involved when eating turtles...)

Countdown and Zero Hour are the culmination of the Xindi arc, constanze.

constanze - How would he have reacted if the reptiloid had told him they eat baby monkeys?
Aren't there places on Earth where Humans eat monkeys?

And cats and dogs? Constanze, I'd take what Archer said to Dollum with a big grain of salt, since he was simply trying to taunt him.

Never say "cats and dogs"...the PROPER thing to say is "dogs and cats"!

Yes, today humans eat all kinds of animals (and threaten to extinct many species) ... but that's because we aren't the enlightened humans of the future. We also have war, poverty, greed, money.... all of which will have been done away with (hopefully).
Monkeys are the closest relatives to humans when looking at them, which is why I would consider a human from the future to consider eating them offensive and incorrect, even if it's done today.

constanze, Archer was their *prisoner*. He was being deliberately offensive.

Or did you expect him to be nice and polite to his captors?

How is eating animals connexionated with them becoming extinct? In any case, we know that humans of the future eat (non-replicated) meat: Archer and co. will eat steak in 'Countdown', and why would they always go on about Spock being a vegetarian in TOS if everyone else was also one?

In any case, any future where humans don't eat meat gives me the willies.

well, I guess it would be too much to expect that Archer think it would be smart not to be offensive, to save himself some blows. (But it probably would run counter to his "tough-boy-hero-image.")

Thande, many species are becoming extinct now because we eat too many of them: the russian fish that produces the caviar is fished to extinction. Some fish species are already gone. I thought that some species of turtles are going extinct because of the gourmets, but I'm not quite sure.

The question (to me) isn't about total vegetarianism, but about responsibilty (raising the animals not in the factory-like conditions of today, with grain from the 3rd world, producing too much methane and dung etc.) and sensibility (not eating primates who are quite intelligent, not eating animals that have been boiled to death over hours or are eaten almost alive etc.)

Hmm well, I suppose that depends on your personal opinion. Certainly STIV gives us the impression that ST-era humans are very wary about making species extinct.

Anyway, in my book it was the Reptilian who started saying Archer was inferior because he was a mammal, and thus Archer at least had that excuse to insult him back. However, as I noted above, it would have been better if Archer had used the more intelligent 'the dinosaurs had cold blood so they died' argument (when the Reptilian had just said having cold blood was an advantage) rather than the ridiculous, Flintstones-like 'the dinosaurs died because they had brains the size of walnuts'. Come on John, you can do better than that! Picard did in 'Chain of Command'...

constanze, he was *deliberately baiting* him. He wasn't trying to be inoffensive.

Also, consider his captors. They apparently consider inoffensive things to be inferior beings. That's the impression that I got, at least.

Thande: However, as I noted above, it would have been better if Archer had used the more intelligent 'the dinosaurs had cold blood so they died' argument (when the Reptilian had just said having cold blood was an advantage)

I don't know what we'll have discovered by the 22nd century, but do we know that for sure? I thought that that topic was still debated.