• The Council Part 2 December 14 - 3:26 pm

YOU'RE EITHER WITH US OR AGAINST US!

Hahaha!! That was pretty funny. This was actually a really good episode.

AMAZING DEVELOPMENT OF THE WEEK, PART 1:
I can't believe they killed off Degra! I mean, WOW!! I am really going to miss him. I was hoping to see a lot more of him as the show continued. (And this episode along with the last four has proven that this show deserves a fourth season) I was very sad to see him go. The worst thing was that the Reptilian swore he would kill Degra's family too. The protection of his family has always been the primary reason for Degra's actions. That had to be one hell of a thing to hear before his death.

AMAZING DEVELOPMENT OF THE WEEK, PART 2:
So they kidnap Hoshi at the end? Now that has me intrigued. What could Hoshi have that the Reptilians want?

TUE'S PSYCHIC ABILITIES OF THE WEEK:
I was watching this with my brother and when the away team was in the sphere, I said to him, "You have three regulars and a never-before-seen extra. I wonder who's going to bite the big one?" It's nice to be right sometimes.

CURRENT PARALLELS OF THE WEEK:
Doesn't take a genius to see the social commentary in this episode.
REPTILIAN: "You're either with us or against us."
HUMANOID: "That's not a choice. It's an ultimatum."
I'm sure Dubya would like to hear that.
And then you have the whole concept of the Reptilians following the Guardians for Religious reasons. They're willing to kill based upon faith.

VULCAN AXIOM OF THE WEEK:
That darn phrase just keeps popping up in the Trekverse doesn't it. Tis good wisdom, though.

COMIC RELIEF OF THE WEEK:
Call me immature, but I thought Phlox using a tapeworm to lose weight was laugh-out-loud hilarious. Especially when he was about to say how he is going to get it out.

SLACKER REPAIRMEN OF THE WEEK:
Why is it such a problem to get the mess hall repaired. That place has apparently been in shambles for weeks. Surely that place would at least be cleaned up early on. People need a place to eat.

THE COMPLEXITY OF ALLIANCES:
There was a short exchange during the ride down to the council that I absolutely loved. Degra tries to tell Archer how to speak to the council and talking in hushed tones makes the Aquatics distrustful but talking in loud voices threatens the Reptilians. There was also that montage of the different races and how each would react to Archer. This episode is really driving home (I think) the parallels between the Xindi and the soon-to-be-formed Federation. The races are even similar.
Humanoids are similar to Humans
The Arborials look like Tellarites and the Arborial representative has been just as argumentative as Tellarites are supposed to be.
The Aquatics are wise and enigmatic like the Vulcans.
The Insectoids have antennae and are agressive like the Andorians.
I don't know where the Reptilians fit in but you get the idea.

OVERALL OPINION OF THE WEEK:
Loved it again. Great part one to what is sure to be a great trilogy.
GRADE: A

TUE

I havent seen trek like this sence DS9 absolutly awsome

You have three regulars and a never-before-seen extra. - TUE

Wasn't Hawkins the guy in Impulse and Hatchery?


Surely that place would at least be cleaned up early on. People need a place to eat. - TUE

No... people need food. They can eat anywhere. The Mess Hall is not as important as propulsion, environmental, and defensive systems.

I was just giving this episode some further thought, and I think that this episode really made the Xindi come alive. I find myself actually caring about what happens to them. I want to find out about the bird-Xindi. I want to know if that story about the Reptilian commander is true.

I think the Xindi have joined the ranks of fully developed Trek societies. Cardassians, Bajorans, Klingons, Vulcans, the Borg, the Federation of course, and maybe the Romulans are the only other ones that I can think of that are more developed than the Xindi. (By developed I mean an understanding of the society, not facts about their world/empire)

This episode had a whole different feel to it. It felt like I was watching actual events unfold rather than a scripted episode. I can't wait for the commercials to end. I can't wait for next week's episode. This is good stuff.

I can't believe how much I cared about the death of Degra. I could see it coming. Not because it was predictable, but because it seemed to flow naturally from the episode. The Reptilian was bound to kill him. I did not want to Degra to die. During the commercial, I was hoping that he had somehow survived the stabbing. That is a testament to the creators. In only a few episodes (prior to "Strategem," he was only a token Xindi) Degra has become one of my favorite Trek characters. I have been fascinated by his choices and how his life was going to turn out. Probably more so than for the crew of the Enterprise. He felt like a real person.

Just some more ramblings submitted for your consideration.

TUE

TUE said: "So they kidnap Hoshi at the end? Now that has me intrigued. What could Hoshi have that the Reptilians want?"

Remember from an earlier scene, the weapon needed codes from three species to be activated. The Reptillans know Hoshi has the ability to fake one of the codes.

Great show, but does every show that has continuity need to have a review at the beginning?

The Undesiriable Element
So they kidnap Hoshi at the end? Now that has me intrigued. What could Hoshi have that the Reptilians want?
-I think they are using Hoshi the same way Degra was told about the inevitable distruction of his family, as an intimadation tool. It's just the way she was named as 'The female'.

I was watching this with my brother and when the away team was in the sphere, I said to him, "You have three regulars and a never-before-seen extra. I wonder who's going to bite the big one?" It's nice to be right sometimes.

-Well, I thought so too, of course, but that extra does look familiar. Wasn't he the same guy who went along with Reed, T'Pol, and Archer to the doomed Vulcan ship? And of course, they had to go through that bit with the extra and Reed at the beginning, to show more characterization of Reed. So, now they are showing a more sad humanization of the 'red shirt death', I think.

Call me immature, but I thought Phlox using a tapeworm to lose weight was laugh-out-loud hilarious. Especially when he was about to say how he is going to get it out.

-The creators are using the old useful tool of putting some needed comic relief, in an all shocking type of episode. ;)

I don't know where the Reptilians fit in but you get the idea.

-Klingons? I love your idea!

Trike

Remember from an earlier scene, the weapon needed codes from three species to be activated. The Reptillans know Hoshi has the ability to fake one of the codes.

-Oh that's right, I forgot about that, but I also thought they would use her as an hostage, to get what they want too.

I like the "Previously on Enterprise" review at the beginning. It doesn't take that long, and is perfectly acceptable for shows such as E.R. and NYPD Blue. Plus it will help if Enterprise ever makes it to syndication.

Outstanding episode. Great direction, editing, music (I loved how it built up as a pulse when reviewing all the species.)

What exactly is "somekinda" movement? That had to be the oddest of all "somekinda"s. (Also had "somekinda" holographic projection. I liked how T'Pol kept the guys in suspense, probably just to see Reed squirm.)


I too had the MACO pegged as getting whacked. So, instead of redshirt syndrome, is the catch-phrase for Enterprise going to be "Uh-oh! Better get another MACO!"

In the episode "Damage", didn't Degra say that She never gave any proof?
Yet, in this episode it is mentioned that She provided the Council with a visual record.

Christopher Q
In the episode "Damage", didn't Degra say that She never gave any proof?
Yet, in this episode it is mentioned that She provided the Council with a visual record.

-I thought I heard Degra say that she didn't have any proof, while Archer did. Yea, I am beginning to think that something is fishy here. Before, there wasn't any proof, but now, she had shown them visual proof, and on top of that, they were helping the Xindi find hospitable planets when theirs blew up, for the past hundred years. I find that a big nit.
--Unless of course, the spear builders are manipulating with time again, to make things go their way, and went back to show the proof, that already wasn't shown to them before. It's just now, Degra and gang remember it, when they had no memory of it before.
--I'm now thinking that, instead of being destroyed, Lorian and crew did get wiped out of existence in 'E2'. I think we should remember the fact, that Archer and T'Pol and the rest do remember them still, even though they know they shouldn't. They are also probably going to remember being told by Degra, at first, she didn't show proof, when now they did.

Temporal Mechanics give me a headache.

Maybe I've missed something but what makes you think Hoshi knows one of the weapon codes? How could she?

Is it just me, or does Archer seem to be a bit too disheveled by this point? The Enterprise appears to have been largely repaired, but Archer still has a dirty face and is in need of a shave. It may be old bruises from his interrogation, but it looks like dirt.

So T'Pol, the Vulcan, who never lies, tells Trip a fib about having a headache in sickbay. A pointless fib, too, he just asked her if she was all right.

Rather than the Mexican standoff between Degra's allied ships and the Reptilian ship, did it occur to Degra to take Archer to the Council meeting in his ship, and have the Enterprise wait in seclusion?

The cloaking field around the spheres always seems to cause damage to the shuttlepods. And it's never something they can't just shut down and do without.

Hoshi and Degra are briefing Archer as he is walking toward the Council chamber. Seems a bit late to me.

Does anyone else think that this was a really bad time to send T'Pol away? She'd probably do really well in negotiating with the Xindi. I have to imagine another member of the engineering staff could download the sphere's memory core.

Archer was told that raising his voice would aggravate the Insectoids. Then he goes and does it anyway. Nice negotiation, speak firmly and they'll believe you. Despite the fact that you are asking them to believe you simply on your word.

Hey Degra, I know you're kinda busy being a Council leader and negotiating to stop the launch of a weapon that'll destroy my homeworld and all, but could you spare a minute to show me how your power cells work?

Reed gets too worked up at the loss of Hawkins. He's supposed to be of a military background. His reaction is too whiny for a career military man. He doesn't need T'Pol to tell him that Hawkins' death was honorable, especially in front of a junior officer.

The weapon seems to move really fast. The Enterprise has trouble keeping up. And it's a tough piece of engineering to be able to handle multiple photon torpedo strikes without showning any signs of damage.

Hoshi might be able to decipher the Xindi languages with her UT, but she doesn't know the launch codes for the weapon. Not sure why she was targeted as a hostage. Why didn't the Reptilians pull the same trick we saw last week, and beam the Enterprise's warp coil off the ship, or something else critical to the ship's operation?

So T'Pol, the Vulcan, who never lies, tells Trip a fib about having a headache in sickbay. A pointless fib, too, he just asked her if she was all right

Maybe one of her Trellium withdrawal symptoms is headaches?

Obi-Juan
Reed gets too worked up at the loss of Hawkins. He's supposed to be of a military background. His reaction is too whiny for a career military man. He doesn't need T'Pol to tell him that Hawkins' death was honorable, especially in front of a junior officer.

You know, I thought of that too, but I also came to the conclusion that up to this point, the military for Earth natives was pretty much dealing within the planet, going off planet thru the stars is a bit of a cultural shock, and then having to deal with a war with aliens, who killed seven million of your own people, I think it was even too much for a quiet and introverted and disciplined man like Reed. I think the storyline is showing that no one is going to be exempted from feeling the repercussions of the war. I think Reed has pretty much kept his up to this point, and for him to lose it, shows us, yea, the disciplined military man is losing it too. Plus, it's not just Reed losing it, he just received a wound that hurts pretty much, and that kind drive anyone over the edge, along with losing people under your command.
I don't think Reed was fully comforted by T'Pol despite T'Pol's efforts. His mind was made up on how he saw everything. He was still grieving over the Maco's death. I think T'Pol still felt she was comforting Reed, and to do that in front of a junior officer, probably was suppose to be to help both of them. I personally think T'Pol was there for Reed as a friend, instead of a senior officer.

That was very trusting of the council to allow Archer to beam something directly into their chambers. For all they knew, it could have been a bomb. I would have guessed the Xindi would have some kind of energy shield to prevent beaming, especially with Enterprise so close by.

TEMPORAL COLD WAR AND THE XINDI ARC:

I was thinking about this today, and I thought of something interesting.

Perhaps the SphereBuilders are the major enemy in the Temporal Cold War. But then maybe there are other factions in the TCW that have different ideas on how to deal with the threat of the SphereBuilders. Each faction could represent a different possible timeline that the SphereBuilders can see, and each faction is fighting for its own timeline's existance.

Suppose you have timelines A, B, C, and D.
The SphereBuilders can see all of these timelines. They want timeline A to occur where they use the spheres to conquer our galaxy. The Suliban faction may want timeline B to occur where (for example) maybe the Romulans take over the Alpha Quadrant. Daniels may want Timeline C to occur where the Federation is formed and everything occurs as we know it. The Tholians want Timeline D for whatever reason.

This may explain why the Suliban allied themselves with Earth in "The Expanse." They both have a common enemy. If the SphereBuilders achieve their goal, Timelines B and C are both in trouble.

I arbitrarily say that Daniels represents the timeline we know, but that's just because he says so. I think it would explain a great deal if Daniels's timeline is not the "correct" one. Maybe an as-yet-unseen Timeline E is the one that leads to the future we know.

The reason that the 22nd century is a front for the TCW then is because this is one of the time periods that the SphereBuilders have chosen to manipulate.

Am I making any sense here?

Let me know what you think.

TUE

You are making sense. There must be more to this than what is obvious. I was thinking that we've kinda quit speculating on who "future guy" is. His identity may be the key to it all. Maybe he is a rebel SphereBuilder who is trying to prevail in an internal struggle by allowing Earth an opportunity to survive and eventually defeat the SphereBuilders' galaxy quest plans. Maybe he first tried working through the Suliban but they turned out to be a bunch of dopes so he changed tactics and made direct contact with Archer. After the Xindi attack on Earth he was running out of time.

Whaddaya think?

Clint, maybe the Suliban aren't a bunch of dopes.

Consider, the Xindi destroy earth, wiping out Timeline B. FutureGuy manipulates the events of BrokenBow, causing Humans to get out into space several years ahead of schedule and allowing them to be ready (readier) to deal with the Xindi attack. Once the SphereBuilder attack is dealt with, the TCW between Daniels' crowd and FutureGuy's crowd can continue.

I'll take it under consideration....but who is FutureGuy?

FutureGuy is the Suliban's guy from the future.

So ... when did the Xindi Avians die out?

In The Shipment, Gralik clearly indicates that the Avians died out recently, victims of the wars that destroyed the Xindi homeworld. ("As far as I'm told, none of them fled before the homeworld was destroyed.") Gralik's grandfather remembered skies full of Avians.

But in this episode, Degra tells Archer that the Council chamber, which was constructed by Avians "hundreds of years" before their extinction, is believed to be over 4000 years old. Degra keeps an Avian skull in his quarters. Granted, neither fact is inconsistent with a recent extinction -- Degra may just have chosen his words poorly in describing the chamber's construction -- but the skull is a pretty grisly keepsake if the Avian extinction is that recent.

And the Reptian commander's description of the Avians as a "failed species" is hardly fair if, per Gralik, the Avians were destroyed by Reptilian and Insectoid bombs. But then, what else should we expect from a Reptilian.

So which is it? And is it possible that all these references to the (presumed extinct but not actually proven extinct) Avians may eventually pay off somewhere?

The Avian skull seems a little grisly by human standards but Xindi standards would not necessarily be the same. Keeping the skull may be the Xindi equivalent of keeping grandma's ashes in an urn on the mantle. Displaying the bones of the dead could be a Xindi way of showing respect and honor.

I think Gralik's story holds up even with the additional information we now have. It's not clear why or when the Avians abandoned this world which they apparently inhabited for thousands of years and all returned to the now destroyed Xindi homeworld but apparently that is what happened. Too bad a few didn't stay away and avoid the destruction (or did they?),

(or did they?).

In the Council Chamber when the Insectoid shoves Archer and mutters some Ant talk at him, Hoshi translates as "you don't want to know". Didn't something very similar to this happen in the Klingon chamber way back in Broken Bow?

Travis describes the intitial deployment of the sphere arm as "some kind of movement". Now, somekindas have never really bothered me, but some kind of movement? That just sounded odd to me.

Herbert: That's exactly what I thought when she said that.

DMW:
so.. ... when did the Xindi Avians die out?

In The Shipment, Gralik clearly indicates that the Avians died out recently, victims of the wars that destroyed the Xindi homeworld. ("As far as I'm told, none of them fled before the homeworld was destroyed.") Gralik's grandfather remembered skies full of Avians.

But in this episode, Degra tells Archer that the Council chamber, which was constructed by Avians "hundreds of years" before their extinction, is believed to be over 4000 years old. Degra keeps an Avian skull in his quarters. Granted, neither fact is inconsistent with a recent extinction -- Degra may just have chosen his words poorly in describing the chamber's construction -- but the skull is a pretty grisly keepsake if the Avian extinction is that recent.
-I was confused by all of this too. Though, in my thinking, and thinking about the many timelines talked about here, and the possibilities that time travel can provide, and what kind of paradoxes can occur and have occurred in past Trek shows and episodes, I'm thinking that the Spear builders are constantly time traveling. They may seem to exist in a non-linear dimension like the Prophets, and thus, can manipulate the past. I'm just thinking that they must have been partly responsible the destruction of the Xindi home world, and then went back to do something else, or why else would Degra say about the Avian base being thousands of years old, despite what Gralik said about the Avians dieing off only a hundred. I'm just wondering if Archer and crew are remembering this, or it's just us viewers that are remembering everything while time keeps getting manipulated. This might also explain why is it that the lone Xindi primate gave Archer the coordinates of the Xindi home planet in his dieing breath, but Archer and crew finding only the crumbling remains. I think in the doomed Xindi primate's mind, his planet may have still existed, but by the time Archer got the info and then visited the coordinates, the timeline was manipulated and thus the planet was destroyed for nearly a hundred years. I think the reason the Enterprise crew didn't understand was probably that they weren't acclimated to the timeline of the Expanse yet.

I'm also thinking of the fact, that Daniels seems out of sync as opposed to the time travels of the guys in Voyager's frame of mind. I often wondered why is it, Daniels never speaks of them, so I am beginning to think that maybe Daniels is not the correct time frame to Kirk, Picard, Sisko, and Janeway. Daniels is probably the result of manipulated timelines, and Archer is being thrown into it.


Clint x:
The Avian skull seems a little grisly by human standards but Xindi standards would not necessarily be the same. Keeping the skull may be the Xindi equivalent of keeping grandma's ashes in an urn on the mantle. Displaying the bones of the dead could be a Xindi way of showing respect and honor.
-Well, considering that the Avians are now, to the Xindi, considered to be an extinct race, having the skull could be a reminder of their history, and to preserving some evidence that they existed, much like having reconstructed Dinosaur bones in museums. That is how I saw that scene.

Regarding the Avian skull, I think Degra kept it to remind him of why the Xindi needed to work together.

NANJAO
I wasn't expecting Degra to be killed when the episode started, but the moment the reptilian walked into Degra's, his darkened quarters... alone, I knew Degra was going to die. The reptilian walks around Degra like he is surveying the area to make sure he won't get caught.

I admit that I didn’t watch season 2 as I watched season 3, so maybe this has been shown already… Has the shuttle pod been shown to have phasers?

Also, my biology knowledge of animals from earth is pitiful, is it common for reptiles not to have tails as well as have tails? I was curious because our delusional bad guys don’t have

Apparently, the reptiles’ skin is not wrinkled enough…
What was the reptile leader doing in his room? Tanning salon?

And his lazy eye got him thrown out of the military too.
Approximately 12 minutes 20 seconds into the episode (without counting commercials), a close up shot of our favorite reptilian will show that his left eye is crooked… or that is, the contact lens is crooked. The iris slit is tilted much more than that of his right eye.

Finally getting surprisingly good. But, as a friend of mine is fond of noting, "Buck Rogers" got good just before it was canceled.

Anyway . . .

T'Pol directs headings using "oh" for zero.
1. Illogical. "Oh" is a letter, not a number. You'd think she would know that.
2. The UT should also know that (if, perchance, she's actually speaking Vulcan).
3. For reasons I've long ago explained, "oh" is an unacceptable substitute for zero in the language of tactics. (Likewise, nil, nought, etc.)
"Set course two-diddlyshit-seven mark squat-eye-zip."

Reptilian commander threatens to nail his underling's skin to the bow of his ship. Kind of an ambiguous threat among those who presumably molt periodically.

"The reptilian walks around Degra like he is surveying the area to make sure he won't get caught." -- Torque

I believe the Reptilian later admits to killing Degra (and he was quite proud of it). I doubt he cared whether he would get caught or not.

"Also, my biology knowledge of animals from earth is pitiful, is it common for reptiles not to have tails as well as have tails? I was curious because our delusional bad guys don’t have" -- Torque

Most mammals have tails, too; however, last time I checked, I didn't have one.

TUE

This was the first new episode of Enterprise I'd watched since last year's First Flight. I've gotta say that it was really good. It's too bad that I missed out on this year, I'll have to catch some reruns over the summer.

I really liked how when Hoshi was there, they had her translate, but when she wasn't, we got the subtitles. That was cool.

I almost laughed when they showed a shot of all four of the crew in the shuttlepod. T'Pol, Reed, Travis, and another guy. Would've been nice if they had in fact not killed him.

Phlox has a worm in his stomach? Is that a good idea? And has Billingsly been losing weight as well?

Christopher Q: Great show, but does every show that has continuity need to have a review at the beginning?
I know that for some reason Angel stopped doing that this year.

Obi-Juan: Archer was told that raising his voice would aggravate the Insectoids. Then he goes and does it anyway. Nice negotiation, speak firmly and they'll believe you. Despite the fact that you are asking them to believe you simply on your word.
I thought that he was trying to reach a point between pleasing the Aquatics and not aggravating the Insectoids. That didn't seem to work too well though, since the Insectoids got pretty angry fairly quickly.

When I said bad guys, I was refering to the reptiles. not the other members of the council because I figured they were no longer bad guys.

Nit in the TV Guide listing: It says that T’Pol and Reed go on a mission to gather data on the doomsday weapon, but they were actually gathering data on the spheres. Naturally, Travis and the MACO were overlooked.

Hi all,


I'm in the UK so have only just seen this episode but one small point. Do we know the MACO is dead? From the scene as I saw it a blue light flashed on the guy and *he dissapeared* is it not possible they brought him into their universe for some other reason?

Excellent episode.

I liked Degra's "alien-sounding" door chime.

The battle at the end was quite spectacular, as was the interior of the Sphere.

Interesting that the Sphere-Builders (or perhaps we should call them the Guardians) apparently exist in the same white expanse as the DS9 Prophets. Is this a subtle way of saying that their dimension has nonlinear time and they can thus view all possible timelines in our universe at the same time (as someone above suggested and was supported by the dialogue)...or is it just the creators finally running out of VFX budget?

At first it looked like it was just one Sphere-Builder 'talking to herself' as with Gollum in the Lord of the Rings - I think that would have been more interesting.

The Xindi are one of the most complex and interesting peoples we've ever seen. I particularly like the way that they feel indebted to the Sphere-Builders/Guardians but (despite what Degra said about some practically worshipping them) do not treat them simply as gods, like the Vorta and Jem'Hadar do to the Founders. I particularly liked the way that although the Reptilian commander wouldn't listen to Archer's arguments and remains determined to destroy Earth, he also seems suspicious of the Sphere-Builders and refuses to trust them. Clearly he is doing this purely because the Sphere-Builders promised to put his race at the head of a new Xindi Empire (one wonders what they promised the Insectoids?)

The Sphere-Builders showed the Xindi footage of humans attacking the Xindi homeworld. Was this faked, or perhaps footage of the Feds bombarding any old planet in e.g. the Dominion War (as the Xindi don't actually know what their new homeworld will be yet, so it could be any planet) or perhaps - given that the Sphere-Builders can see all the timelines - maybe it was footage of a timeline where humans REALLY destroy the Xindi (e.g. the Mirror Universe?).

NANJAO: Apparently the old Xindi homeworld was called (as one might expect) "Xindus".

Luigi got his wish - the Xindi-Arboreal now has a name. Unfortunately, I can't remember it.

Nits:

Degra says to Trip that he killed members 'of his own species' meaning the crew of the Reptilian ship from "The Forgotten". This is a strange choice of words given that Primates, Reptilians etc. are usually referred to as 'the different Xindi species'.

Why did they have a special Borg-sphere-coming-out-of-cube-style door for the Weapon built into the Council planet? Why did they move it here from Azati Prime? If it was for the Council to deliberate on whether to use it, why not just leave it in a parking orbit?

And if the Xindi have transporter technology that can beam stuff around Enterprise willy-nilly (we haven't seen them use transporters before, I believe) why didn't they use this as a weapon against Enterprise before? The only possibility I can think of is that maybe they needed a specific sensor profile of Hoshi to get a lock and they surreptitiously scanned her while she was in the Council chamber.

Looking forward to next week!

Someone above mentioned the conflicting information of Degra's words implying that the Avians' extinction was more than a few decades ago but Gralik's grandfather remembering them - do we know how long the lifespan of a Xindi-Arboreal is? Earth sloths, which seem to be the inspiration for the Arboreals, are remarkably long-lived for their size because of their very slow metabolism.

---Critique:
D@mn good, satisfying episode, in which certain confrontations (Archer and the Council, Trip and Degra) finally come to a head, the tide of trust begins to turn away from the Guardians, we get loads of background information on the Xindi, their history, and the various Council members, and a surprising last-minute decision by an unexpected member of the Xindi Council, that actually had me going for a moment before I suspected what would actually end up happening. I’m also happy that Reed, Hoshi and Travis also got some quality screen time, with Reed having some meaty character dialogue. I’m also glad that we learned how and why the Xindi came to revere and practically worship the Sphere-Builders (interesting how this makes them even more like the Founders of the Dominion), because this, along with the “visual proof” they gave them about their future destruction by Earth, now makes the Xindi’s blind obedience to them more understandable, in particular Dolum’s threat to his lieutenant in Act 3 for even appearing to question them. The A and B stories worked I perfect sync with one another, and the ending was another shocker. I’m blown away by the fact that we’ve now had at least two cliffhanger-worthy episode endings before the actual season cliffhanger. These are excellent developments in the story, easily the best ongoing Trek story thead since Deep Space Nine.

---Notes:
---We learn a great deal about the other Xindi Council members and about the various Xindi races in Act 2. The other major Xindi Council members get names, and even the name by which the Xindi refer to the Sphere-Builders is revealed. Degra reveals to Archer that after the Xindi homeworld was destroyed, the Sphere-Builders saved them from extinction by guiding them to habitable planets and resources, and that the Xindi came to refer to them as Guardians, and to revere and practically worship them. We learn that Aquatics are so patient in forming their opinions that there is a saying, “It’s easier to count the stars in the sky than it is for an Aquatic to reach a decision.” Degra later tells Archer in the shuttle that they respect boldness and confidence, and that they view hushed tones with suspicion, but that the Insectoids interpret raised voices as a sign of hostility. Degra later tells Phlox in Act 3 that they have in inherent distrust of the spoken word, and are more moved by visual stimuli. We learn that the Insectoids’ names grow longer as they get older, becoming difficult to pronounce, and that in coming to their decisions, they are much the opposite of the Aquatics. Hoshi later tells Archer in the same Act that there are 67 dialects in the Xindi-Insectoid language, and when Aquatics switch to sonar when they speak in the past tense. Degra later mentions near the end of the same Act that the mountainous area where the Xindi Council is located, which is two kilometers above the surface and surrounded year-round by concealing clouds, can only be reached by air, and was built 4,000 years ago by the Avians. We also see more Xindi-Humanoid ships, including a shuttle. We even see a Xindi-Avian skull in Act 3. Jannar names the Xindi homeworld as Xindus in the third scene of Act 3.
---Archer and Hoshi mention near the end of Act 2 that she never was called to the principal’s office, and that he was called once, and later tells her in Act 3 that it was for passing a note to a girl named Katy Bentley inviting her to a friend’s party, and that while she previously turned him down, she changed her mind after he got into trouble.

---Terms:
Janus Loop Training exercise which includes EV combat training, on which Hawkins spent six months, as he and Reed and mention near the end of Act 1.
The Guardians The name by which Degra tells Archer in the opening scene of Act 2 the Xindi have referred to the Sphere-Builders as a result of the Sphere-Builders having aiding them following the destruction of Xindus.
Jannar The name of Degra’s Xindi-Arboreal colleague on the Council, whom he tells Archer is a fair-minded scientist in Act 2.
Kiaphet Amman’sor The Female Xindi-Aquatic member of the Council, a member of the powerful Ibix Dynasty whose carefully thought-out opinions carry much weight, whom Degra mentions by name to Archer in Act 2.
Ibix Dynasty A very wealthy, very powerful Xindi-Aquatic family to which the Xindi Council member Kiaphet Amman’sor belongs, whom Degra mentions by name to Archer in Act 2.
Commander Dolum The name of the Xindi-Reptilian Commander who serves on the Xindi Council, whom Degra mentions to Archer in Act 2. Degra tells Archer of a possibly apocryphal story about Dolum, in which Dolum had his daughter’s son poisoned because he was born with a deformity in his right arm that was non-life-threatening, but enough to preclude a military career.
RCS inverter Mechanical system on the shuttlepod that short circuits after it enters the cloaking field in Act 2, which T’Pol tells Travis to shut down.
Xindus The original homeworld of the Xindi, which Jannar first mentions by name in the third scene of Act 3.
Katy Bentley Girl to whom Archer tells Hoshi in the beginning of Act 3 he sent a note in class inviting her to a friend’s party, which resulted in Archer being sent to the principal’s office. Ironically, Katy had already turned Archer’s invitation down, but changed his mind after he got into trouble.
Nexian tapeworm Parasitic organism that attaches itself to the lower intestinal tract and absorbs nutrients from the host organism, which Phlox tells Trip in Act 5 he is using to help lose weight, and which he says will eventually remove by inserting a standard V-probe.
V-probe Medical instrument that Phlox tells Trip in Act 5 he insert into himself to remove the Nexian tapeworm he’s been using to lose weight.

We need to have Gul Madred from “Chain of Command(TNG)” strap that officer down to teach him the right number of ships
After Dolum’s lieutenant interrupts his sunbathing session to tell him about the destruction of the Reptilian ship at the end of The Forgotten, Dolum is called over the conn by an officer who tells him that there are six ships approaching, including the Enterprise, but the subsequent exterior shot of the convoy is of seven ships.
Yeah, but the Avians had non-union labor
When Archer first sees the mountainous area of the Council chamber near the end of Act 2, he says, “the Avians,” and Degra confirms that the Avians did indeed build the area. But there’s no reason to conclude that it had to be the Avians. The given the other races’ level of technology, they could’ve built it up there too.
It’s just that watching “The Xindi” and “The Shipment” seemedto take millennia
At the end of The Xindi, Kessick gave the Enterprise coordinates to Xindus, which turned out to have been destroyed about 120 years earlier. But when flying Archer and Hoshi to the Council chamber, Degra tells them that the mountain area where it is located was built by the Avians 4,000 years ago, “centuries” before they were extinct. Gralik Durr told Archer in Act 2 of The Shipment that the Avians only became extinct during the Xindi Civil War, which ended when the Reptilians and Insectoids detonated the explosions that destroyed Xindus. If that occurred about 120 years ago, then if the Avians built the chamber area 4,000 years ago, then they built it millennia before they became extinct, not centuries.
I’ve heard of birds that can fly long distances, but this is ridiculous
Also, did the Avians have interstellar flight four thousand years ago? If the Sphere-Builders only began guiding the Xindi to other planets after the Civil War destroyed Xindus, how could the Avians have built this installation so long ago?
Hoshi: “Listen funny-heading guy, if they wanna give me screen time, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT AND DON’T ARGUE WITH THEM!!”
The Xindi Council has always communicated with each other freely, an indication that they have universal translators, unless we’re to believe that each member of the council not only knows five languages (their own and those of the other four Xindi races), but English as well. So why is Hoshi needed for translation? Couldn’t the chamber’s U.T.’s be programmed with English? Isn’t that how they’re understanding Archer? It’s also interesting that the Insectoids’ dialogue is no longer subtitled for the home viewer during this scene, but is subtitled later in Act 5 when Dolum tells the Council he will launch the weapon.
Hoshi: “Hmm…yeah, well, I guess I could’ve gotten more dialogue that way…”
After Dolum hits Archer in the Council chamber, and the Insectoid throws him onto the Council table with some harsh words, Archer looks to Hoshi for the translation, and Hoshi says, “You don’t wanna know.” No, Hoshi. He’s your superior officer, and is on a mission to save Earth. I think he should know what a member of the race trying to destroy it said to him.
Is the fact that she’s always been a bi+ch enough?
As T’Pol, Reed, Travis and the MACO approach the Sphere in a shuttlepod in what appears to be a collision course in the second scene of Act 3, T’Pol firmly tells Travis to hold their course, and Reed nervously obeys, until the shuttlepod passes through the hull, an apparent hologram. Reed says, “You could’ve warned us ahead of time,” and he’s right. Is there any reason for T’Pol not to have simply said, “That part of the hull is a hologram,” other than manufacturing tension in the scene?
Geez, Degra has more stories and denials than OJ
Something here doesn’t make sense. During the Council meeting in Act 3, Dolum verbally attacks Degra for firing on his ship in The Forgotten, and Degra says that they were trying to prevent them from reaching the Council, which is pretty much an admission from Degra that he did destroy it. But then at the end of Act 4, Dolum confronts Degra in private, and tells him that he retrieved data from a sensor encoder from that ship’s final scan before being destroyed, which shows that Degra’s ship firing on it. Degra now says that he doesn’t know what Dolum is talking about. Dolum presses on, and Degra now admits it again, prompting Dolum to kill him. I don’t get it. Didn’t Degra already admit earlier in the Council chamber that it was he would destroyed it? Why did Dolum wait until this admission before killing Degra?
Unfortunately, four other crewman wanted to lose some weight, and Phlox’s Nexian tapeworm treatment shrunk them to death
After returning in the shuttlepod from their Sphere mission in Act 5, on which Corporal Hawkins was killed, Reed is angered that they’ve now lost 23 people. Archer indicated in his speech to the crew in the teaser of The Forgotten that they lost 18 people. Doesn’t Hawkins now make 19?
I’ve heard of “Don’t sh*t where you eat,” but I’ve never heard of “Don’t launch where you meet”
So the Xindi built and hid their weapon on the same planet where their Council meets? Was this a good idea? (And don’t tell me that it was a last minute switch after the Enterprise compromised their security in Azati Prime, because those huge bay doors that opened to launch it could not have been built in such a short time.)

Yeah, it’s the same program Trekkie nerds use when them draw pictures of Seven of Nine and T’Pol in Adobe Photoshop
During the second Council meeting in Act 4, Archer has the dead Sphere-Builder’s suspension pod beamed in. Degra tells the council that the corpse inside is just a biometric hologram, derived from the same technology used to train their physicians, which he earlier told Phlox in sickbay in Act 3 was developed by the Aquatics. The Insectoid asks how do they know the data used to create the hologram wasn’t falsified. Degra responds that humans don’t have the technology to produce a fabrication of this detail. WAAAAITAMINUTE—that wasn’t the question! The Insectoid’s question wasn’t whether the hologram was fabricated—they already know that it is, because Degra just told them they used biometric hologram technology to do so—the Insectoid asked how do they know the data on which the hologram is based was not fabricated. Certainly humans do have the technology to write up a fake set of measurements, don’t they?

TUE: So they kidnap Hoshi at the end? Now that has me intrigued. What could Hoshi have that the Reptilians want?
Luigi Novi: When the dark-skinned Xindi-Humanoid (I really wish he had gotten a name) pointed out to Dolum that he only had two of the three “launch” codes. Dolum said they had that covered. Now they “launched” the weapon without Hoshi, but perhaps the Weapon also needs multiple arming codes, but Dolum doesn’t have those. Hoshi would be coerced into cracking them. Or perhaps the creators meant to have that Humanoid say “arm” instead of “launch.”

TUE: You have three regulars and a never-before-seen extra. I wonder who's going to bite the big one?
Luigi Novi: Hawkins first appeared in Anomaly.

TUE: There was a short exchange during the ride down to the council that I absolutely loved. Degra tries to tell Archer how to speak to the council and talking in hushed tones makes the Aquatics distrustful but talking in loud voices threatens the Reptilians.
Luigi Novi: No, that was the Insectoids.

TUE: The Arborials look like Tellarites and the Arborial representative has been just as argumentative as Tellarites are supposed to be.
Luigi Novi: Where did you get that? Jannar was no more argumentative than any other Trek character. If anything, he has been amenable to Archer’s side of the story, and is allied with the Humanoids and Aquatics. I also see no resemblance between them and the Tellarites.

TUE: The Aquatics are wise and enigmatic like the Vulcans.
Luigi Novi: I’ve don’t recall Degra saying that they were particularly wise, nor do I recall Vulcans being particularly enigmatic.

TUE: I think that this episode really made the Xindi come alive. (By developed I mean an understanding of the society, not facts about their world/empire) This episode had a whole different feel to it. It felt like I was watching actual events unfold rather than a scripted episode. I can't wait for the commercials to end. I can't wait for next week's episode. This is good stuff. I can't believe how much I cared about the death of Degra.
Luigi Novi: Ditto!

Christopher Q: Great show, but does every show that has continuity need to have a review at the beginning?
Luigi Novi: It helps make the show more friendly to casual viewers, as well as loyal viewers who may have missed an episode, or who don’t recall an important setup point from an episode earlier in the season.

Christopher Q: In the episode "Damage", didn't Degra say that She never gave any proof? Yet, in this episode it is mentioned that She provided the Council with a visual record.
Luigi Novi: I assumed Degra’s comment is derived from the fact that a visual “record” can be fabricated.

Herbert: Maybe I've missed something but what makes you think Hoshi knows one of the weapon codes? How could she?
Luigi Novi: No one said she knew them. But she’s a linguistics genius. She might be able to crack them.

Obi-Juan: Is it just me, or does Archer seem to be a bit too disheveled by this point? The Enterprise appears to have been largely repaired, but Archer still has a dirty face and is in need of a shave. It may be old bruises from his interrogation, but it looks like dirt.
Luigi Novi: I’m sure many in the crew haven’t been taking good care of themselves, possibly because of limited resources. Maybe they don’t have fully operational plumbing or a good supply of clean water.

Obi-Juan: So T'Pol, the Vulcan, who never lies…
Luigi Novi: Vulcans as a group are reputed to never lie, but T’Pol has never been established as one in particular who never lies. She’s lied in numerous episodes.

Obi-Juan: Does anyone else think that this was a really bad time to send T'Pol away? She'd probably do really well in negotiating with the Xindi. I have to imagine another member of the engineering staff could download the sphere's memory core.
Luigi Novi: Archer did a pretty good job. I doubt T’Pol’s logic would have made much of a difference, since the Reptilians and the Insectoids didn’t seem dissuaded by logic or objectivity, and seemed to suffer from lack of it themselves.

Obi-Juan: Archer was told that raising his voice would aggravate the Insectoids. Then he goes and does it anyway. Nice negotiation, speak firmly and they'll believe you. Despite the fact that you are asking them to believe you simply on your word.
Luigi Novi: He did this because he had to strike a balance between gaining the Aquatics’ trust and not offending the Insectoids. And he never asked them to believe them on his word. He provided them proof.

Obi-Juan: Hey Degra, I know you're kinda busy being a Council leader and negotiating to stop the launch of a weapon that'll destroy my homeworld and all, but could you spare a minute to show me how your power cells work?
Luigi Novi: I don’t recall Trip asking for Degra specifically. He may only have been asking to send one of his technicians over.

Obi-Juan: Reed gets too worked up at the loss of Hawkins. He's supposed to be of a military background. His reaction is too whiny for a career military man. He doesn't need T'Pol to tell him that Hawkins' death was honorable, especially in front of a junior officer.
Luigi Novi: Everyone has a breaking point, and after what Earth and the Enterprise crew has been through, I think his reaction is understandable. He’s not God, after all.

DMW: In The Shipment, Gralik clearly indicates that the Avians died out recently, victims of the wars that destroyed the Xindi homeworld. Gralik's grandfather remembered skies full of Avians.
Luigi Novi: No, the Xindi Civil War ended with the desruction of their homeworld, which the end of The Xindi established occurred about 120 years ago. His grandfather, therefore, may simply have been around then, particularly when you consider how old Gralik might be and what Arboreal lifespans are.

Herbert: In the Council Chamber when the Insectoid shoves Archer and mutters some Ant talk at him, Hoshi translates as "you don't want to know". Didn't something very similar to this happen in the Klingon chamber way back in Broken Bow?
Luigi Novi: Yep. The exact same thing.

JoshM: Travis describes the intitial deployment of the sphere arm as "some kind of movement". Now, somekindas have never really bothered me, but some kind of movement? That just sounded odd to me.
Luigi Novi: I figured the fact that he couldn’t pinpoint it is why it appeared vague to him.

Torque, Son of Keplar: I wasn't expecting Degra to be killed when the episode started, but the moment the reptilian walked into Degra's, his darkened quarters... alone, I knew Degra was going to die.
Luigi Novi: Ditto. I thought Dolum was going to shoot him right there. Extending the scene further beyond that heightened the tension for me.

Torque, Son of Keplar: I admit that I didn’t watch season 2 as I watched season 3, so maybe this has been shown already… Has the shuttle pod been shown to have phasers?
Luigi Novi: It did in Detained.

Torque, Son of Keplar: Also, my biology knowledge of animals from earth is pitiful, is it common for reptiles not to have tails as well as have tails? I was curious because our delusional bad guys don’t have
Luigi Novi: They could’ve evolved in such a way to lose them, just as humans did.

Torque, Son of Keplar: Approximately 12 minutes 20 seconds into the episode (without counting commercials), a close up shot of our favorite reptilian will show that his left eye is crooked… or that is, the contact lens is crooked. The iris slit is tilted much more than that of his right eye.
Luigi Novi: Which scene is this? 12:20 into the show without commercials is when Degra tells Archer during the shuttle ride to the Council that Insectoids view raised voices as a sign of hostility. The closest scene to this with Dolum is the next scene, which closes out Act 2, when he threatens to kill the humans. His left iris slit looks fine. His right one looks a bit tilted, but it’s like that all the time. Perhaps it’s meant to be that way.

TJ Fleming: bow of his ship. Kind of an ambiguous threat among those who presumably molt periodically.
Luigi Novi: It’s possible that they do not molt, and even if they do, the threat was that he’d adorn the bow of his ship with it when it wasn’t molting season.

Edz: I'm in the UK so have only just seen this episode but one small point. Do we know the MACO is dead? From the scene as I saw it a blue light flashed on the guy and *he dissapeared* is it not possible they brought him into their universe for some other reason?
Luigi Novi: I thought of that myself.

Thande: Luigi got his wish - the Xindi-Arboreal now has a name. Unfortunately, I can't remember it.
Luigi Novi: Jannar. Thing is, they neglected to give the dark-skinned Humanoid one, and now that Degra’s gone, he might be the one with whom Archer has the most contact.

Thande: Why did they move [the weapon] here from Azati Prime?
Luigi Novi: Because the Enterprise compromised the security of the weapon in Azati Prime. Personally, I just question their choice for the new location.

I only realised it after Luigi provided those transcripts of the character names, but the creators have done a surprisingly good job of coming up with alien-sounding names for the Xindi. The Reptilians, Arboreals and Primates all have fairly conventional names, while the Insectoids and Aquatics have decidedly weird (sci-fi novel-level weird) names, which fits the fact that they are more alien compared to us than the other Xindi species.

"Gralik Durr"? When was his surname mentioned? Not that I'm complaining; I hate it when the creators only give aliens one name (not really feasible for a planetary population, methinks).

Me: Why did they move [the weapon] here from Azati Prime?
Luigi Novi: Because the Enterprise compromised the security of the weapon in Azati Prime. Personally, I just question their choice for the new location.
Me: That's what I meant. I can buy them moving it to the Council planet because it's probably well defended. The strange part is the huge doorway in the surface of the planet - which exactly fit the probe. (Otherwise it could be any old hangar that they've press-ganged in).

Re the shuttlepods having phase weapons: as Luigi said, they do in Detained, but in other episodes such as Shadows of P'Jem they seem to have a particle weapon. Maybe one shuttle is fitted with each, for some reason.

How did T'Pol know that that part of the Sphere was a hologram?

The Council planet was very reminiscent of Geonosis from Star Wars Episode 2, apart from the cloud cover (I'm thinking of the deserty terrain, huge sky-towers built by the avians and the fact that the Council was held in one of them).

Luigi Novi: Maybe they [the Enterprise crew] don’t have fully operational plumbing...
Me: Good thing there aren't any Bolian crew members, I guess.

Oh, and re Luigi's comment about Dolum & Degra firing on the Reptilian ship: I think in the first scene you mentioned, with the Council, Dolum was talking about Degra firing on his ship at the beginning of this episode when the Primates and Arboreals escorted Enterprise in.

It was only when Dolum's subordinate told him about the debris and the flight recorder they'd found that he realised that Degra had actually destroyed the Reptilian ship from The Forgotten, not just fired warning shots at Dolum's ship.

I think.

Reflecting on TUE's theory of the Xindi being a metaphor for the Federation, I thought I'd give my 2 pence:

1. Many non-canon sources have assumed that the 5 founding races of the Federation are humans, Vulcans, Andorians, Alpha Centaurians and Tellarites.

2. However, we now know that Alpha Centauri is just another human colony and its people therefore would not count as a 'race'.

3. So what if the Xindi are the other founding Federation race? We've seen lots of prelude stuff which seems to be setting up a human/Vulcan/Andorian alignment against a threat (i.e. the Romulans) and they'll probably throw in the Tellarites by there being an attack on the Tellarite homeworld or something. But the Xindi would also be a great addition to the Federation and might act in a 'cavalry' role at some climactic battle (like Cheron) as the Klingons did in Sacrifice of Angels (DS9).

4. Ah, I hear you cry, but how come we've never seen any Xindi or heard their name on any future ships (except of course the Enterprise-J )
To which I say:
Primates and Arboreals look like generic humanoid races and could easily have been any of the generic humanoids in the background in the Trek movies.
Partly ditto for Reptilians, though they're a bit more distinctive.
Or Reptilians and Insectoids might just be destroyed or not choose to become part of the Federation (as they are the most hostile in the current Xindi arc).
Aquatics would not be seen most of the time on Starfleet ships anyway (maybe down in the aquariums with the dolphins ).

As for not mentioning the name Xindi - the most plausible explanation is that they changed the name of their race, perhaps because the three species which join the Federation want to distance themselves from the Reptilians and Insectoids. Maybe the Xindi are an oft-mentioned but never-seen Federation race, of which DS9 and TNG have a fair number. (This might also be a storytelling trick, as if Earth had been attacked in 'The Expanse' by a race we know will eventually be our allies, it would reduce the tension).

You might say that we should see more Xindi later on if they are a founding Federation race. But, let's face it, we see very few Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites in the TNG era too. Either they were decimated in the Romulan War (and Earth wasn't) or this is a continuity nit. The Xindi might also have been decimated in that war, in a civil war, or might simply mostly choose to remain in the Delphic Expanse.

All this, coupled to the fact that B&B don't care too much about continuity anyway, leads me to believe that the Xindi may in fact be Federation members in the timeline we all know and love. The only question remaining is why later Starfleet ships don't have the Xindi vortex-generation technology.

Comments?

Herbert: Maybe I've missed something but what makes you think Hoshi knows one of the weapon codes? How could she?
Luigi Novi: No one said she knew them. But she’s a linguistics genius. She might be able to crack them.

She herself says something along the lines of "I'm a linguist, not a cryptologist!" I can read and pronounce (Japanese) katakana and hiragana, but I don't necessarily know what it means.

Obi-Juan: Hey Degra, I know you're kinda busy being a Council leader and negotiating to stop the launch of a weapon that'll destroy my homeworld and all, but could you spare a minute to show me how your power cells work?
Luigi Novi: I don’t recall Trip asking for Degra specifically. He may only have been asking to send one of his technicians over.

Trip asked Degra specifically. I seem to recall in context that he was referring to Degra when he said "you", and not a generic "you guys".

Thande: Oh, and re Luigi's comment about Dolum & Degra firing on the Reptilian ship: I think in the first scene you mentioned, with the Council, Dolum was talking about Degra firing on his ship at the beginning of this episode when the Primates and Arboreals escorted Enterprise in.
Luigi Novi: In reviewing that exchange in this epsiode, I think that what you suggested is what the creators intended, Thande. Degra’s line that “you” were trying to prevent us from reaching the Council does it make it seem like he’s referring to that earlier scene. Thanks, Thande.

Influx: She herself says something along the lines of "I'm a linguist, not a cryptologist!" I can read and pronounce (Japanese) katakana and hiragana, but I don't necessarily know what it means.
Luigi Novi: I didn’t say she did. All I said was that no one stated that Hosih “knew” the codes. Dolum simply wanted her to decipher them. Whether he was misinformed in this idea is a separate point.

Influx: Trip asked Degra specifically. I seem to recall in context that he was referring to Degra when he said "you", and not a generic "you guys".
Luigi Novi: You’re right. He specifically asks them to “stick around,” rather than “send someone over.” Thanks. I’ve added this nit to my Nitpick document, and this will be the heading:

Trip: “Hey Degra, I know you’re kinda busy being a Council leader and negotiating to stop the launch of a weapon that'll destroy my homeworld and all, but could you spare a minute to show me how your power cells work?”
Degra: “Sure, but first let me go organize my sock drawer. Guy’s gotta prioritize.”

My brother refers to the Guardian girl from the future as "the friendly angel," after Classic Trek's "And The Children Shall Lead."

Another good episode. It's the all out sprint to the finish, and we're along for the ride. I'm liking it.

So, are they called Xindi-Humanoids or Xindi-Primates. I think the second one would be more appropriate since Humanoids could also be describing the Reptilians and the Arboreals.

Reed snaps a little in this episode after Hawkins dies. I really like how the stresses of this mission is pushing the crew toward the edge and that they're actually showing it. Reed's scene reminded me of that.

I like the look on Reed's face when he tells Hawkins that they "Don't know what to expect" in the sphere.

Obi-Juan: So T'Pol, the Vulcan, who never lies, tells Trip a fib about having a headache in sickbay. A pointless fib, too, he just asked her if she was all right.
Yeah, but saying "I'm fine" would be a lie too.

DMW: So ... when did the Xindi Avians die out?
I've always assumed that it's a century or so before the events in this episode.

Luigi Novi: If that occurred about 120 years ago, then if the Avians built the chamber area 4,000 years ago, then they built it millennia before they became extinct, not centuries.
Technically, millennia are centuries. You have to have centuries before you can have millennia.

Luigi Novi: It’s also interesting that the Insectoids’ dialogue is no longer subtitled for the home viewer during this scene, but is subtitled later in Act 5 when Dolum tells the Council he will launch the weapon.
Is that a nit or just an observation? Because subtitling it in the former scene then Hoshi reading it would be redundant. We don't have Hoshi in the latter scene.

Luigi Novi: After Dolum hits Archer in the Council chamber, and the Insectoid throws him onto the Council table with some harsh words, Archer looks to Hoshi for the translation, and Hoshi says, “You don’t wanna know.” No, Hoshi. He’s your superior officer, and is on a mission to save Earth. I think he should know what a member of the race trying to destroy it said to him.
Assuming it's similar to Broken Bow, the Insectoid probably insulted him. And if he did, I think that Archer probably got the message here, just like he seemed to then.

Thande: Re the shuttlepods having phase weapons: as Luigi said, they do in Detained, but in other episodes such as Shadows of P'Jem they seem to have a particle weapon. Maybe one shuttle is fitted with each, for some reason.
They could've upgraded them like they did to the Enterprise.

Thande: How did T'Pol know that that part of the Sphere was a hologram?
She detected it.

Technically, millennia are centuries. You have to have centuries before you can have millennia.

Technically, a millenium is 1000 years.

Which is ten centuries, isn't it?

Yes, but which of these two sentences sounds more like the sort of thing you'd say offhand:

1. Caesar lived two thousand years ago

2. Caesar lived twenty centuries ago

See Luigi's point?

I still think it would be okay to say something like "Caesar lived centuries ago."

Maybe that's just me.

I think either viewpoint could be right. However, if we change it to "Do we a. think the creators sat down, thought about the earlier line and decided it would flow better if they said 'centuries', or b. not even bother to check what they'd said just a few episodes ago and stick in any old number", I think you can see what we're getting at.

WAAAAITAMINUTE—that wasn’t the question! The Insectoid’s question wasn’t whether the hologram was fabricated—they already know that it is, because Degra just told them they used biometric hologram technology to do so—the Insectoid asked how do they know the data on which the hologram is based was not fabricated. Certainly humans do have the technology to write up a fake set of measurements, don’t they?

I think that if the humans don't have this advanced simulation technology, they wouldn't be able to fabricate data that would convert into a real, working simulation. If you ask somebody to invent data in a field he knows nothing about and show the fake data to an expert, the expert will notice relationship between the data missing the faker didn't think about, and know its fake.
Likewise, a simulation program could check for internal consistencies. Or it could be as simple as generating a 3D image with wrong depth and shadow data would look faked.

Midway through the ep., when the time-traveling female was berated for the timeline problems, and talks with the reptiles, I wondered why she didn't travel back further in time and kill Degra earlier, so he couldn't betray the Xindi, since he was an important factor in getting the council to listen to Archer.

So an all-Human team goes to the Sphere, although Degra provided them with facts about the spheres before. Why not take some Xindis on board, considering that some members of the council believe Archer to have faked the previous data? A recording from an earth shuttle could be faked, too. (That's the real problem with proof: you have to believe first that it isn't faked; if your're paranoid/distrustful, all proof can be faked and needs a lot of time and independent research to verify it. The same distrust should Archer apply to Daniels, of course.)

When it was said that the female Sphere-builder provided visual proof from the future, I thought that that means its basically Daniels word (via Archer) against her word (via the reptiles). How do we know that Archer is right? (Yeah, he's the hero. How do the Xindis know that?)

I'm still amazed how quickly aliens, in this case the Xindi, always change side to help the humans, even against their own kind. I can't imagine a point in earth history where humans would've done the same (the problem of the weapon reminds me of the A-bomb, considering the force of destruction.)

Constanze, the Sphere-Builders don't travel in time, they just see the future and past (possibly in a nonlinear form like the DS9 Prophets). Still, I suppose they could still have sent an image back further once Archer appeared and tried to change the timeline again...usual time travel paradox business.

Your point about only humans going to the Sphere is a good one, though I suppose you could say the Xindi didn't want to because the Sphere-Builder built them and they fear retribution - whereas if Archer's lot fails they can disown all responsibility?

You're right in that the Xindi Primates do change sides suspiciously quickly. I'd expect them to need more evidence first. The only explanation I can think of is that Degra was already uncomfortable with building the weapon and that he had convinced the others that the humans were nicer people than their so-called allies the Reptilians and their Sphere-Builder masters. Though by Archer's behaviour this season, not by much...

I don't think the A-bomb is a good analogy, because the Xindi attack on Earth was a sneak and apparently unprovoked attack, more like Pearl Harbour or 9/11. Of course, from the Xindi's perspective they are proactively avenging the humans' alleged destruction of their own world...time travel gives a totally new meaning to revenge.

....usual time travel paradox business. As phil said in his Guide discussion of TNG: Generations, once you give a character total control of time, you create an awful lots of nits.
Time travel gives me a headache

As for the A-bomb: I wasn't thinking about who started what, but because the new weapon is one big bomb that packs a lot of destructive force.
As for who attacked unprovoked: so far, the Earthlings have talked about the attack that wiped out Florida, and the Xindis have talked about the destruction of their race as reason for their behaviour. I'm sure if you look at the Japanese records, they had perfectly good reasoning for Pearl Harbor being only a defense against the sanctions by the US which were threating their economy.
In wars, it's not who's really (objectively) right, but what people believe that matters. And no nation believes that it attacked purely for aggression. Everybody believes that they were only defending themselves/ revenging an ancient wrong/ destined to rule the world, anyway/ etc. That's what makes this turn-around so hard to believe.

When Degra and Archer wanted to shake hands on the new Xindi-Earth alliance in the future; and when the other Xindi pondered the Avian skull, I thought "Poor Xindi bastards don't know they'll be wiped out sometime in the future by the big reset button or the humans or somebody else, since we never, ever hear of them again. " Unless the theory about name-changing above is right - interesting idea.

I also thought the Xindi might drift apart and become separate races which we will then have heard referred to vaguely in other Trek series - the Jarada could be the Insectoids, one of the others could be the Tzenkethi (which sounds a bit like Xindi? ) etc.

I guess when it comes to persuading aliens that the way they have lived for the past 10,000 years is wrong, in about five minutes, Archer is Just That Convincingly Earnest^TM

Or Archer has a tatoo over his heart "I'm the hero, so I'm always right".

Imagine if the roles were reversed: an alien race which looks exactly like the devil comes to Earth and speaks in front of the council to tell the christians that their prophets and their prophecies have lied to them, and that Earth must ally itself with them in order to survive, because the prophets/God is really just an extradimensional species changing the universe.
While it would be a challenging episode - as in: challenging viewers to examine their beliefs and use their intellect - can you imagine TPTB ever approving it? Or the uproar this would create? (Uhuras and Kirks kiss would be nothing compared to this storm!)

Not to mention the other Abrahimic religions (Judaism, Islam)

Though I have a feeling Roddenberry would do it if he thought he could have gotten away with it.

And he would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for those meddling TV execs!

>>>By Obi-Juan on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 8:02 pm:
So T'Pol, the Vulcan, who never lies, tells Trip a fib about having a headache in sickbay. A pointless fib, too, he just asked her if she was all right. <<<

Maybe she did have a headache and that was why she was in sickbay. Nothing in the scene says that she couldn't have gone to Phlox with a headache, then the Doctor opted to give her a check up since she was there.

>>>Rather than the Mexican standoff between Degra's allied ships and the Reptilian ship, did it occur to Degra to take Archer to the Council meeting in his ship, and have the Enterprise wait in seclusion? <<<

At least some of the evidence is stored on Enterprise - such as the Reptillan device they are storing. They may feel that it could be to difficult or dangerous to move such equipment/evidence, or more likely they may feel that keeping the equipment on Enterprise adds to their argument. For example members of the council would be able to review the computer records in Enterprises computers directly to eliminate the possibility the files were altered.

>>>Apparently, the reptiles’ skin is not wrinkled enough…
What was the reptile leader doing in his room? Tanning salon? <<<

Reptiles are cold blooded, his room probably warms him up and relaxes him.

>>>By TJFleming on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 7:22 am:
T'Pol directs headings using "oh" for zero.
1. Illogical. "Oh" is a letter, not a number. You'd think she would know that. <<<

Both Zero and 'O' have been used throughout Star Trek when giving headings. Its not illogical, or confusing to the crews in context any more than saying 'I've clean all the cookies off my computer' is to someone who has basic computing experience.

>>>2. The UT should also know that (if, perchance, she's actually speaking Vulcan). <<<

T'Pol is speaking English. In Broken Bow Hoshi insults T'Pol in Vulcan, and T'Pol then tells her to speak English, since she was instructed to speak in English while on Enterprise. There is no logical reason for her to be speaking Vulcan anyway, since the only other person on Enterprise who would understand her is Hoshi.

>>>By LUIGI NOVI on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 2:24 am:
Unfortunately, four other crewman wanted to lose some weight, and Phlox’s Nexian tapeworm treatment shrunk them to death
After returning in the shuttlepod from their Sphere mission in Act 5, on which Corporal Hawkins was killed, Reed is angered that they’ve now lost 23 people. Archer indicated in his speech to the crew in the teaser of The Forgotten that they lost 18 people. Doesn’t Hawkins now make 19? <<<

I always felt that Archer's speech in The Forgotten was refering to the crewmen that had been killed in the Xindi attack on Enterprise, since that would have been fresh in everyones minds. There is nothing to say that they hadn't lost people before this (well, four people in total since 22 crewmen had died at the start of this episode and 23 have died at the end). In fact at least one other crewmen was killed much earlier in the season (I forget when).

>>>I’ve heard of “Don’t sh*t where you eat,” but I’ve never heard of “Don’t launch where you meet”
So the Xindi built and hid their weapon on the same planet where their Council meets? Was this a good idea? (And don’t tell me that it was a last minute switch after the Enterprise compromised their security in Azati Prime, because those huge bay doors that opened to launch it could not have been built in such a short time.)<<<

Maybe they were planning ahead? After they destroy Earth they would have to keep the weapon somewhere. Having it near the council chamber would allow all of the various Xindi races to keep an eye on it to make sure none of the others decided to use it on their own.

>>>Obi-Juan: So T'Pol, the Vulcan, who never lies…
Luigi Novi: Vulcans as a group are reputed to never lie, but T’Pol has never been established as one in particular who never lies. She’s lied in numerous episodes. <<<

Vulcans of TOS don't lie - although going off Spock they can omit information, be in error etc. However Vulcans of this period can and do lie as they are not following the pure teachings of Surak - although this will not be adressed until season four.

>>>Torque, Son of Keplar: I admit that I didn’t watch season 2 as I watched season 3, so maybe this has been shown already… Has the shuttle pod been shown to have phasers?
Luigi Novi: It did in Detained. <<<

Shuttlepods have plasma cannons, but they can fire a constant beam and appear to be phasers - again we'll see this in season four. This also explains how Enterprise is also seen to be firing what look like phase cannons from parts of the hull that don't contain them.
We know from Broken Bow that Enterprise was fitted with energy weapons since it fired at Suliban ships - their phase cannons were not installed at that point, and the torpedo's didn't work until after Broken Bow. While the weapons fire here was bolts rather than beams of energy this might have been down to a tactical need - the targeting systems were not working correctly (Which was why they couldn't use torpedo's until Reed fixed this) so they may have decided or been forced to use satuaration fire. The plasma cannons could also have been upgraded since Broken Bow...Of course this does raise the nit as to why they never tried using these weapons after Broken Bow and before the Phase cannons were installed....

>>>By Thande on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 7:33 am:
How did T'Pol know that that part of the Sphere was a hologram? <<<

Holograms have no mass, so I'd assume there would be a discrepancy in the gravitinal field in that area - or in Star Trek tech speak lowered graviton emissions in that part of the sphere.

>>>By Josh M on Saturday, November 06, 2004 - 2:51 pm:
So, are they called Xindi-Humanoids or Xindi-Primates. I think the second one would be more appropriate since Humanoids could also be describing the Reptilians and the Arboreals.<<<

Why would they call themselves humaniods? That means 'Like humans'.

>>>By Thande on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 9:15 am:
You're right in that the Xindi Primates do change sides suspiciously quickly. I'd expect them to need more evidence first. The only explanation I can think of is that Degra was already uncomfortable with building the weapon and that he had convinced the others that the humans were nicer people than their so-called allies the Reptilians and their Sphere-Builder masters. Though by Archer's behaviour this season, not by much...<<<

Degra seemed to be having resevations about the weapon almost from the moment he turns up in the season, as did others he talked to.

Its easy to forget that they were talking about stopping the attack, not getting rid of the weapon. Even the more suspious of the Xindi Primates would be able to console themselves with the thought that they had some 400 years to use it. (And its also easy to miss that as far as the Xindi are aware Earths defences are not going to be in any condition to stop it for the forseeable future. We know that a year from this episode Earth could probably call on the Vulcans, Tellerites and Andorians to help defend Earth against it. As the Xindi show no inclination to attack any of those races we can only conclude that the Sphere builders neglected to mention that Earth was going to have them as Allies in the near future. Probably because that might beg the question 'If humans are that nasty why do they become friends with so many different species...?' )


Nit; When the shuttlepod leaves Enterprise for its mission we get a good view of the shuttlebay and the right-forward underside of the saucer. Astonisingly even after all the damage Enterprise has taken, and after Xindi ships having a clear shot at that part of the ship in Azati Prime, the entire part of the ship we can see is in pristine condition. No holes, no blastmarks not even any chipped paint....

>>>>>>Obi-Juan: So T'Pol, the Vulcan, who never lies…
Luigi Novi: Vulcans as a group are reputed to never lie, but T’Pol has never been established as one in particular who never lies. She’s lied in numerous episodes. <<<

Vulcans of TOS don't lie - although going off Spock they can omit information, be in error etc. However Vulcans of this period can and do lie as they are not following the pure teachings of Surak - although this will not be adressed until season four. <<<

Oops, my bad. Vulcan's CAN lie, they just don't like lying unless there is a logical reason for doing so. This was confirmed in The Enterprise Incident (TOS).