• The Augments Board 2 February 11 - 7:50 pm

Can somebody please tell me WHY UPN feels the need to spoil parts of an episode by showing scenes from later in the episode during the commercials that follow Act 1, including crucial plot points???? Arrrgggghhhhh!!!!!!

Well, at least they are showing some advertising for Enterprise.

Second Post!

---Critique:
---Pretty good wrap-up to the arc.
Although primarily an action/chase story, it was well-executed, with some nice tactics all around, and Soong’s ultimate realization about Malik were what made it more than that. The manner in which his idealism came crashing down around him, his relationship with Persis, and the shifting alliances ending with the duel between her and Malik were very interesting.
---And of course, the action sequenes were great. The precision beaming of Archer in the opening scene of Act 1 right after he was blown out into space was a greatly original (at least for onscreen Trek—Peter David had Calhoun crawl through a torpedo onto the exterior of the Grissom in his New Frontier novel, Once Burned), though I didn’t think think that highly of CGI Archer. The grappler sequence was pretty good, as was the suspense surrounding the torpedo sequence, and Malik’s apperance on the Enterprise at almost the very end was a nice surprise.
---And even though I’m not a huge fan of those not-so subtle references to future Trek, even I have to admit that I liked the one at the very end of the episode.

---Continuity Nods:
---In Act 1, Soong mentions the Klingon name for the Briar Patch, which was the setting for Star Trek Insurrection.
---Malik and Persis mention Khan, the Botany Bay penal colony and the Botany Bay pre-warp vessel, which were established in Space Seed(TOS).
---Malik mentions the Klingon Qu’Vat Colony to Soong in the opening scene of Act 2. The Qu’Vat was the Vor’cha-class attack cruiser carrying Governor Torak in Aquiel(TNG). And the Klingon Captain Archer speaks with in Act 2 indicates that that area of space falls under the jurisdiction of a Governor Klag, a Klingon name borne by the Klingon with whom Riker became friends in A Matter of Honor(TNG).

>> I know I've heard that Klingon name for the Briar Patch before. ("Klach tel Bracht" or something like that. My Klingon isn't really up to par. ) I think it was mentioned in DS9 as the site of a major battle.

>> Nice little bit of parallelism with a bloodied Malik crawling across the destroyed bridge. Very reminiscent of Khan's final moments aboard the Reliant in STII.

>> I also liked Soong's thoughts about becoming a cyberneticist. It seems reasonable that something as complex as Lore/Data/B4 would take several generations to get right. It also makes sense given how disappointed Noonien Soong was in "Brothers" when Data did not become a cyberneticist. If the career went back several generations, I could see why Soong might be disappointed.

>> So things are still hunky-dorey with the Klingons. I'm still waiting for something bad to happen. Given the events of Enterprise so far, Klingons and humans should become best buddies in 100 years rather than bitter enemies.

>> Why was the Denobulan pilot still on the Klingon ship? Why didn't Soong leave her on Cold Station 12. (I thought I even saw her locked up with the station's personnel in the last episode, but I'm not sure so I won't count that as a nit.) He clearly did not expect Enterprise to be able to follow him. Was he just going to toss her out of an airlock later?

>> In Star Trek VI, Chekov says that they must respond to a Klingon outpost personally because a universal translator would be recognized. Here, Archer uses a universal translator without incident. Perhaps they can't recognize it in this century.

>> Soong tells the Augments that there are two habitable planets in the Briar Patch. Now if there are two habitable planets, why did the Ba'ku choose the one that had bizarre concentrations of radiation in its rings? What if there had been dangerous side effects?

OVERALL OPINION:
I liked it. Nice wrap-up to the whole Eugenics arc. It certainly boosts the reasons for the laws against genetic engineering in the future. I liked the continuity references to other Trek series as well as to other threads in "Enterprise." I'm looking forward to next week's Vulcan Civil War.

TUE

---Notes:
---This episode seems to establish that it was Soong who named the Briar Patch, that the radiation that floods it is due to supernova remnants, and that the Baku planet from Star Trek Insurrection is not the only habitable planet there, as Soong says there are at least two.

---Terms:
Klach D’Kel Brakt The Klingon name for the Briar Patch, in which Soong tells the Augments they will hide in the second scene Act 1.
Qu’Vat Colony Klingon colony that Malik tells Soong in the opening scene of Act 2 is four light years away from their position.
Governor Klag Klingon official whose authority is needed for passage through the system the Enterprise passes in Act 2, as mentioned by the Klingon captain who speaks to Archer in Act 2.
Chancellor M’Rek Presumably the current leader of the Klingon Empire, mentioned by name by the Klingon captain who speaks to Archer in Act 2.
“Superior ability breeds superior ambition” Quote by one of the Augments’ creators, who ended up being murdered by one, as Archer mentions to Soong in the brig in the second scene of Act 3.

They were going to, but John Kerry then criticized them for outsourcing the job to someone else
In the beginning of Act 1, the crew lament that they can’t follow Soong into Klingon space because the Klingons will detect them. Why don’t they just tell the Klingons that the Bird of Prey Soong and the Augments stole is now in their space, and let them go after it themselves?
Guess Archer has gotten old since the pilot episode. Just last week, he had Travis keep the turn signal on for five light years.
In Act 1, after Archer returns to the bridge from sickbay, and Trip tells him the modifications to the warp coil are completed, Archer orders Travis to take them to the Klingon border at Warp 4. Given how time is of the essence, why not Warp 5?
Seven million people die, the hometown is obliterated, and Lucy is killed, and they still can’t make amends? Geez, and you thought Eminem hated his parents!
Huh? So Trip’s parents are actually alive??? What the hell? Trip seem to indicate in the beginning of Home that because his sister and entire home town were gone, that he had no one left, which is one reason he went to Vulcan with T’Pol in that episode. But now he and T’Pol mention in the second scene of Act 2 that they are alive and living in a new home in Mississippi?? If that’s true, then why did Trip act as if he had nowhere to go in Home? After a year away from Earth, wouldn’t he have wanted to spend some time with them? Or is he on really bad terms with them? If so, I would’ve preferred mention of this in that episode.
Yeah, really. Every highway cop knows that given his history, W. would probably be the one driving.
So all it takes to get past Klingon patrols is to tell them you have the Chancellor on board, and tell them the reason you don’t have a transponder on board is because of that? Wouldn’t the Klingon captain Archer spoke to know full well that if the Chancellor were coming through, that he would’ve been ordered to steer clear of them beforehand? This is like being caught speeding with a black limo, and then just saying to the copy that pulls you over that “Oh, it’s okay, we have President George W. Bush on board.”
Archer: “Soong! What’re you doing here?”
Soong: “I used an escape pod to get here.”
Archer: “Soong, Klingon ships don’t have escape pods.”
Soong: “Sure they do. I just used one. Pretty efficient one, too. Except for that weird smell.”
Archer: “Soong, that’s not an escape pod, that’s a waste disposal pod!”
Soong: “Ah. Got any deodorant?”
Soong escapes from the Bird of Prey in an escape pod in the closing scene of Act 2, but Sleeping Dogs established that Klingons do not have in escape pods because they believe that having their lives saved when in danger brings them dishonor.
Hey, this is Star Trek, not Babylon Five, buddy!
Why did it not occur to a genetically engineered intellect like Persis that Malik would deduce that she was the one who gave Soong the security codes that allowed him to escape? I really would’ve preferred it if the writers had her concoct a clever plan to prevent detection, and then simply have Malik outthink her, rather than just having her do something so obvious.
They did. But when someone noticed the sensors picked up a crazy human with ripped clothes on board, they just assumed it was Courtney Love
Why didn’t T’Pol or Reed detect Malik’s transport onto the Enterprise near the end of Act 4?

So in one episode, some guy’s stomach lining “boils” away, and in the next, another guy is so cold he’s covered in frost? Are these supposed to be Star Trek characters, or those Heat Miser and Snow Miser guys from that Year Without a Santa Claus claymation Christmas special?
When Archer is beamed from space onto the transporter pad in the beginning of Act 1, he is covered in frost. This is obviously the creators' way of indicating how cold it is in space, but since space is a vaccuum, where would the moisture needed to form frost come from?

You really have to wonder at how smart these supposedly “perfect” humans are. Supposedly they have genetically engineered intelligence, but Malik seems to think that destroying a Klingon colony will cause the Klingons to go to war with Earth, but not find out who the specific humans were that attacked the colony, and go after them in particular. Why does this not occur to him?

"Kor led a decisive Klingon victory over the Romulans in the Battle of Klach D'Kel Brakt." -- from startrek.com

I knew I'd heard that term somewhere before. They just played "Blood Oath" on SpikeTV the other day. That must have been where it got into my cluttered brain. Kor was re-enacting that battle on the Holosuites at the very beginning of that episode.

TUE

How did the Augments hear of the Botany Bay? IIRC Space Seed mentioned no such rumor & only deduced that the crew were from the Eugenics war because 80 or 90 supermen were unnaccounted for at the end of the Eugenics War.

How did Malcolm know what to aim the Grappler at? Archer simply told him to ready it & didn't mention any plan for what to do with it.

It looked like Soong pointed on the diagram at a spot just behind the 'bulb' on the Klingon ship, but when Enterprise fires they hit the main body of the Klingon ship.

Oh, cute alteration of your username TUE.

When reading the TV listing for this episode it was mentioned that the Augments would be using the diseases against the Klingons. I thought, 'Wouldn't it be funny if the diseases combined together unpredictably to cause the Klingons to lose their forhead ridges & look like the Classic Trek Klingons?'

Would have been an interesting way to reconcile the Klingons different look.

I ahd the same thought about the changing makeup
of the Klingons
but this matter is better not resolved.


I was highly disappointed by this episode.

Brent Spiner was great but the rest.....

I was hoping that the creators would find a way to have Malik, at least, meet his end by being shot with a good old-fashioned projectile weapon, or at least stabbed with a knife. For all their superior abilities including being able to absorb considerable blasts from energy weapons, the Augments were no less vulnerable than ordinary humans to knives or other conventional weapons. That was established early on in Borderland. When Malik makes an aggressive move toward Raakin, Raakin's two allies both whip out daggers.

Ok,
there is an foreign ship in your teritory
and you try to stop it from maybe attacking an colony. But if you get hailed and somebody in your language ensures that they are nice people and help grandma over the street you sure will let them proceed without question.

Honestly how dumb is the writing on this episode ?

Why didn't Soong tell them that there is the captured Bird of Prey, about which the Klingons should know, about to realise the deseases on the colony and they must be stopped?

The Klingon ship could have helped Enterprise
engaging the BoP.

These 3 eps wasted so many opportunities
for stupid action.

Archers rescue from the "jefferies" tube
was also very stupid.

I thought the Klingons were portrayed in a rather weak manner. In the first ep of the trilogy, they are too quickly dispatched by the augments. Aren't the Klingons supposed to be much stronger than humans. Strength-wise, I would have thought they would have put up a better fight with the augments.

In this ep, the very paraniod Klingons let the Enterprise slip into their territory by accepting the flimsiest of explanations. Or was it supposed to be that they thought a Klingon official was sneaking back after a bit of "nookie" on Orion?

Luigi Novi: When Archer is beamed from space onto the transporter pad in the beginning of Act 1, he is covered in frost. This is obviously the creators' way of indicating how cold it is in space, but since space is a vaccuum, where would the moisture needed to form frost come from?
If I may add... CG Archer looked nothing like "real" Archer. Also, he wasn't covered in frost.


Also, exactly why Archer decided to let Augments go when they dropped shuttle with Denubulan on board? Soong said it himself, they had four to five hours of time to further damage BoP and at least prevent its escape.

And I agree that Klingons were portrayed in a very weak manner. And one more thing... Just two years ago, they were so powerful, and now suddenly realitvely primitive Earth starship outguns Klingon BoP three-to-one?

Weird geography of the week: So Briar Patch is separated from Earth by Klingon teritory? That's funny, it didn't seem that way in Insurrection...
(And yeah, this is more of an Insurrection nit, since Kor fought with Romulans there.)

"Weird geography of the week: So Briar Patch is separated from Earth by Klingon teritory? That's funny, it didn't seem that way in Insurrection... " -- Kazeite

That seemed odd to me too. "Insurrection" establishes that the Briar Patch nebula is within Federation space. So either the Federation envelopes the Klingon Empire on several sides in the future like a U-shape, or else the Federation has space that is not connected (like the British Empire in days of yore). Or perhaps the territory of Klingon space has changed dramatically since this time (something to do with the Khitomer Accords maybe?)


Also, I just thought of something. What might have been a cool ending would have been for Malik and the Augments to enter the Briar Patch and fly into the rings of the Ba'ku planet where the metagenic radiation would cause them to revert back into embryos. (This was supposed to be Ru'afo's fate in the original ending of Insurrection.) Then the Augments could be put back into cold storage with the rest of their unborn siblings. (I can think of several legitimate reasons for why this wasn't done)

TUE

"When Archer is beamed from space onto the transporter pad in the beginning of Act 1, he is covered in frost. This is obviously the creators' way of indicating how cold it is in space, but since space is a vaccuum, where would the moisture needed to form frost come from?" -- Luigi Novi.

I can think of two possibilities:
1. any moisture inside the tube from which he was sucked (or is that blown? Soong better get to work on that android so he can fix my grammar).
2. Any moisture (such as sweat) that was on Archer's skin.

There was some discussion on the Farscape message board about the plausability of being exposed to a vacuum when Crichton jumped from ship to ship with no suit on in season 2's "Look at the Princess, Part 2: I Do, I Think." In that episode he was in space for about a minute. (Of course, Luxans can apparently survive in a vacuum for half an arn, but that's a different discussion)

I miss that show.

TUE

When Archer and Arik had their conversation at the end, I wondered where Noonien is going to come from.

Does Arik have a son or daughter they didn't mention?

Does he have prison groupies?

TUE: So things are still hunky-dorey with the Klingons. I'm still waiting for something bad to happen. Given the events of Enterprise so far, Klingons and humans should become best buddies in 100 years rather than bitter enemies.

Amen! I had it in my mind that this arc was going to set up the long-anticipated conflict with the Klingons. Instead, we get the standard Trek "summary log" that, in two sentences, says, "Well, it all worked out and we can pat ourselves on the back and sleep well tonight." Again: when are things going to go sour with the Klingons? It's been a few years since "first contact" with them and nothing has gone wrong, other than a few bared teeth and growled insults. Where is this "disaster" that Picard alluded to in First Contact (the ep, not the movie)>

Luigi Novi: You really have to wonder at how smart these supposedly “perfect” humans are. Supposedly they have genetically engineered intelligence, but Malik seems to think that destroying a Klingon colony will cause the Klingons to go to war with Earth, but not find out who the specific humans were that attacked the colony, and go after them in particular. Why does this not occur to him?

I didn't really have a problem with this. It fit with what I believe to be the general character of an aggressive Klingon. Remember, it was Sisko and the DS9 personnel who specifically attacked their fleet in Way of the Warrior, but this action led to a general war in which numerous Federation vessels were attacked. I could see Klingons--especially these "warrior-caste" Klingons--to not be very interested in whether "official" humans or "renegade" humans attacked them. In fact, I could see them accusing Earth of engineering the plot.

As an aside, the Romulans seem to feel the same way. On two occasions (Star Trek VI and TNG The Mind's Eye) they back a plan to have a rogue agent assassinate a Klingon target. In both cases they feel that the Klingons will not make the distinction that the Federation had no official role in the process.

Also, the fabled inability of TPTB to grasp how a planetary/interstellar government should work makes a brief appearance. In this ep Soong makes some reference to the fact that Starfleet was imprisoning him. Why? Wouldn't this be the province of some civilian agency of the Earth government? Or does Starfleet run everything in this time too?

Jesse: I didn't really have a problem with this. It fit with what I believe to be the general character of an aggressive Klingon. Remember, it was Sisko and the DS9 personnel who specifically attacked their fleet in Way of the Warrior, but this action led to a general war in which numerous Federation vessels were attacked.
Luigi Novi: Jesse, this is because Sisko and the DS9 personnel acted as representatives of the Federation. The Augments did not.

Jesse: I could see Klingons--especially these "warrior-caste" Klingons--to not be very interested in whether "official" humans or "renegade" humans attacked them. In fact, I could see them accusing Earth of engineering the plot.
Luigi Novi: So these Klingons are so stupid that they don’t acknowledge the concept of criminals or rogues? I don’t buy it. To each his own.

Jesse: As an aside, the Romulans seem to feel the same way. On two occasions (Star Trek VI and TNG The Mind's Eye) they back a plan to have a rogue agent assassinate a Klingon target. In both cases they feel that the Klingons will not make the distinction that the Federation had no official role in the process.
Luigi Novi: Because in both cases, the patsies were Starfleet officers fairly high up in the Starfleet hierarchy, giving the strong appearance of Starfleet involvement (especially in the case of Kirk and Bones). The same does not hold true for the Augments. In addition, the Klingons did NOT assume Starfleet was responsible for Kirk and Bones’ alleged actions. They simply arrested the two of them, and tried them alone, never making any accusation against Starfleet or the Federation for their actions. Rather than disproving my point, this example you came up with proves it, and disproves yours.

Jesse: Also, the fabled inability of TPTB to grasp how a planetary/interstellar government should work makes a brief appearance. In this ep Soong makes some reference to the fact that Starfleet was imprisoning him. Why? Wouldn't this be the province of some civilian agency of the Earth government? Or does Starfleet run everything in this time too?
Luigi Novi: I forgot to mention that: Why is Archer the one who escorts him back to his cell and deactivates his cuffs, and the only other guy there (both when he picks him up in Borderland and when he drops him off at the end of this ep) a Starfleet guy? Archer should just have dropped him off at the prison’s receiving area, along with the cuff control, and the prison staff (which should not be Starfleet) should've taken him back to his cell.

I'm not so sure that the Klingon Briar Patch is the same one that was in Insurrection- Soong said that the Klingon name for that area translated into Briar Patch- that does not neccesarily mean that it is the same area. As an example, there is a Portland, Maine and a Portland, Oregon. It is possible that there is more than one area in the Galaxy that has the same name.

It is also possible that Klingons hold that territory for a certain amount of time, and for some reason give it up to or lose it to Earth/the Federation, which does not get around to exploring it until Insurrection(the Admiral in Insurrection did say "they're calling this area the Briar Patch" which implies it is a recent naming, which would seem to suggest it is not the same area, but it is still possible since it is a big galaxy)

I'm not so sure that the Klingon Briar Patch is the same one that was in Insurrection- Soong said that the Klingon name for that area translated into Briar Patch...
Luigi Novi: No he didn't. He said that he calls it the Briar Patch, based on some book he read, as he mentions to Lokesh. He did not say that "Klach D’Kel Brakt" means "Briar Patch."

Come on, Anon. It looked just like the Briar Patch from Insurrection, too. I think we are supposed to assume that they are one and the same.

TUE

Luigi Novi: Jesse, this is because Sisko and the DS9 personnel acted as representatives of the Federation. The Augments did not.

As I recall, didn't Sisko disobey orders by going and retrieving the members of the Detappa Council? In doing so he destroyed at least two Klingon vessels. Wouldn't this give the UFP room to write his actions off?

Luigi Novi: Because in both cases, the patsies were Starfleet officers fairly high up in the Starfleet hierarchy, giving the strong appearance of Starfleet involvement (especially in the case of Kirk and Bones). The same does not hold true for the Augments.

Not sure I agree. Starship captain isn't exactly high up in the ranks, considering the number of starships and the size of the Federation. And Bones and La Forge are nobodies. Starfleet could have easily disavowed them as easily as they must have disavowed Burke and Samno, from ST6.

As far as the Augments not being official, I agree that we know they are not. But, the important aspect is how the Klingons will see their actions. Lest you forget, the Augments were once agents of Earth governments and were being stored on a United Earth-controlled facility. Their release and subsequent training certainly lends credence to a Klingon theory that Earth had some tacit involvement.


Luigi Novi: In addition, the Klingons did NOT assume Starfleet was responsible for Kirk and Bones’ alleged actions. They simply arrested the two of them, and tried them alone, never making any accusation against Starfleet or the Federation for their actions. Rather than disproving my point, this example you came up with proves it, and disproves yours.

I think you're forgetting something. The Klingons did what they did only because a very peace-minded Klingon, Azetbur, was head of the high council. Remember the scene in ST6 when Azetbur gets off the horn with the UFP Prez? Right away two Klingon generals are there with plans for war with the Federation. You can't tell me that these two were the only ones. They were ready to go to war with the Federation immediately after the Fed head of state disavowed the actions of the conspirators. If Azetbur had not been controlling things, war would have likely resulted from Kirk's actions. Instead, she restrained her people from war and made the decision to punish Kirk. ("Kirk--Kirk will pay for my father's death.")

Two messages have been moved to the Garbage Dump.

I thought Malik suddenly appearing on Enterprise and attacking Soong, just so Archer can kill him was stupid. Where the hell did he come from? He was last seen crawling around on the bridge, and moments later it blows up. Are we to believe that he transported over from the Klingon bridge without anyone knowing? Just dumb. I guess TPTB wanted him killed by Archer, but what a stupid scene. I thought the arc was Ok until I saw that.

Well, not too bad IMO. I liked the imagery toward the end with Malik on the ruined bridge of his ship and half of his face bloodied. I think it would have been more interesting if the Enteprise hadn't stopped the torpedo in time. Continuity nods are always nice, and all in all I'd say it's a passable finale.

Once again, I'm surprised that the grappler, which couldn't hold onto a shuttlepod in Breaking the Ice, could hold onto a warp nacelle like that. Upgrades?

Did Travis speak in this episode? It seemed like he took every order silently.

Luigi Novi: This is like being caught speeding with a black limo, and then just saying to the copy that pulls you over that “Oh, it’s okay, we have President George W. Bush on board.”
It wouldn't surprise me if that would work. Assuming you really do have the president in your limo.

Luigi Novi: Why didn’t T’Pol or Reed detect Malik’s transport onto the Enterprise near the end of Act 4?
Don't you think that a genetically engineered genius could figure out a way to mask his transport?

KAM: How did Malcolm know what to aim the Grappler at? Archer simply told him to ready it & didn't mention any plan for what to do with it.
I assume he said the plan offscreen so the audience would be surprised by what happens.

Kazeite: Also, exactly why Archer decided to let Augments go when they dropped shuttle with Denubulan on board? Soong said it himself, they had four to five hours of time to further damage BoP and at least prevent its escape.
They didn't know how quickly they could rescue her. When the BOP dumped her, she became the Enterprise's priority.

Kazeite: And I agree that Klingons were portrayed in a very weak manner. And one more thing... Just two years ago, they were so powerful, and now suddenly realitvely primitive Earth starship outguns Klingon BoP three-to-one?
It could be a different class BOP. And two years ago, the Enterprise didn't have photonic torpedoes.

Summerfield: Does Arik have a son or daughter they didn't mention?
I think that that was implied by his "future generations" comment.

Jesse: I could see Klingons--especially these "warrior-caste" Klingons--to not be very interested in whether "official" humans or "renegade" humans attacked them. In fact, I could see them accusing Earth of engineering the plot.
Luigi Novi: So these Klingons are so stupid that they don’t acknowledge the concept of criminals or rogues? I don’t buy it. To each his own.
Unless they want a war with Earth and will take even the flimsiest excuse to justify it.

Anon: Looks like we may need another Roving Mod...

Kail: I thought that that was unnecessary as well.

While Luigi's comment has merit, I still contend that there was not enough evidence in the episode to establish that the Briar patch here is the same one as the one in Insurrection. It is certainly possible, but it is not a certainty. Again, just because two places have the same name does not mean it is the same place.

As I stated, the Admiral in Insurrection said "they're calling this area the Briar patch" which suggests that was a recent development(he did not say "this area is called the Briar Patch) and not a name that had been established for 200 years. I doubt that Starfleet got wind of what Soong called the area and decided to use that name(200 years later)

If it was the same place, why would Starfleet wait all those years to finally explore it and attempt to utilize the metaphasic radiation?

As for the graphics, many things in space look the same, this does not mean they are the same place. (Again, it is possible, but not a certainty.) The Voyager episode Flashback is a good example- the nebula Tuvok saw on Voyager appeared to be the same as one he saw on the Excelsior, but it was not.

I have been the one posting the messages about the Briar patch, and I was not the one who made the inappropriate comment about Luigi.

I would also suggest that it is appropriate for Starfleet to imprison Soong- especially since his actions were a threat to Earth(or humanity). It would be no different than imprisoning a terrorist(in today's times) who attempted to steal WMD or to use them.

I may be wrong, but aren't crimes on military bases handled by MP's, and not some civilian police force? Perhaps Soong's misuse of C-12 got him imprisoned?

Anon.: It would be no different than imprisoning a terrorist(in today's times) who attempted to steal WMD or to use them.

Yeah, but if he was caught in the US, he'd be sent to a federal prison, not an Army stockade or Portsmouth Naval Prison.

Ah- that was my question. Thanks

And I agree with Luigi 100%: let's knock off the previews that run during the episodes. I didn't want to know that Malik would led a rebellion against Dr. Soongh before it actually happened! But UPN went ahead and ruined it for me--for all of us, actually.

Btw, I haven't heard a lot of discussion about the Eugenics Wars. Granted, I missed about 10 minutes of the first ep, "Borderlands," so maybe my concerns were addressed there. But how are TPTB explaining the Eugenics Wars? As "the last of [our] so-called world wars," as Spock said way back in Space Seed, or as the shadowy conflicts that are taking place out of the public eye, as Greg Cox's The Eugenics Wars novel series attempts to say. (I actually like his idea, truth be told. According to the sketchy timetable presented by Spock, Khan's reign should have ended about eight years ago. However, I could see that maybe the full story won't be known for a few more generations. When it is, perhaps humans will talk about the wars the way Archer & Co. do; namely, as a war with battles, sides, and casualty estimates. But for now, to us it's just disconnected events that we don't realize are part of a larger plot.)

PS -- forgive me if this has been discussed somewhere else.

Kail: I thought Malik suddenly appearing on Enterprise and attacking Soong, just so Archer can kill him was stupid. Where the hell did he come from? He was last seen crawling around on the bridge, and moments later it blows up. Are we to believe that he transported over from the Klingon bridge without anyone knowing? Just dumb. I guess TPTB wanted him killed by Archer, but what a stupid scene. I thought the arc was Ok until I saw that.

Dan Gunther: I saw that scene somewhat differently. I felt that it truly demonstrated the mindset of Malik and showed that he truly does not care about anyone except himself, including his "brothers" and "sisters." He blew everyone else up, and escaped to save his own skin. Much like how Spock described the "supermen" of the Eugenics Wars as having turned on each other until the world was in ruins, Malik and the other Augments slowly turned against each other.

Josh M: Once again, I'm surprised that the grappler, which couldn't hold onto a shuttlepod in Breaking the Ice, could hold onto a warp nacelle like that. Upgrades?

Dan Gunther: In "Breaking the Ice," some material in the comet interfered with the magnetic hold of the grappler. Unfortunately, the file is corrupted on my computer (???) so I can't say what the material was, because while my memory is pretty good, it's a good deal far from being idetic.

Ah, I see. Thanks Dan.

Peter David had Calhoun crawl through a torpedo onto the exterior of the Grissom in his New Frontier novel, Once Burned

How funny! I'm reading that book now and got just past that part to where Clay finds him and Kat, and then Calhoun and Clay fight.

Nice little bit of parallelism with a bloodied Malik crawling across the destroyed bridge. Very reminiscent of Khan's final moments aboard the Reliant in STII.

Yeah, figured that I wouldn't be the only one to see that. Wasn't sure if I liked them doing that or not.

When reading the TV listing for this episode it was mentioned that the Augments would be using the diseases against the Klingons. I thought, 'Wouldn't it be funny if the diseases combined together unpredictably to cause the Klingons to lose their forhead ridges & look like the Classic Trek Klingons?'

Would have been an interesting way to reconcile the Klingons different look.

As well as why they, as Worf said in DS9's Trials and Tribble-ations, don't like to discuss it.

Me - How did Malcolm know what to aim the Grappler at? Archer simply told him to ready it & didn't mention any plan for what to do with it.
JoshM - I assume he said the plan offscreen so the audience would be surprised by what happens.
1. IIRC I don't think they paused or took a break so Archer could explain what he wanted to do.
2. Couldn't Archer have said something like "Ready the Grappler. Plan D."

Jesse: As I recall, didn't Sisko disobey orders by going and retrieving the members of the Detappa Council? In doing so he destroyed at least two Klingon vessels. Wouldn't this give the UFP room to write his actions off?
Luigi Novi: No, he didn’t disobey orders when rescuing the Council, and no, there’d be no need to write it off. What Starfleet did was to order Sisko not to warn the Cardassians about the Klingons’ invasion because it might be seen as a betrayal of the Klingons, who were the UFP’s allies. After doing so clandestinely through Garak, and after the Federation Council condemned the invasion, Gowron expelled all UFP citizens from the Empire, recalled his ambassadors from the Federation, and withdrew from the Khitomer Accords. By the time Sisko set up the rendezvous with Dukat’s ship, the UFP and the Empire were no longer allies, and he had no standing orders not to do so.

Jesse: Not sure I agree. Starship captain isn't exactly high up in the ranks, considering the number of starships and the size of the Federation. And Bones and La Forge are nobodies. Starfleet could have easily disavowed them as easily as they must have disavowed Burke and Samno, from ST6.
Luigi Novi: The captain, possibly of the flagship, assigned to escort the Klingon Chancellor, and the Chief Engineer of the Flagship, are not “nobodies,” in my opinion. But your missing my point, which is that there’s no reason to assume that Klingons will see any and all actions on the part of any ol’ humans as necessarily representing Earth as a whole. You say that Starfleet could’ve disavowed Burke and Samno. I agree, and this disproves the notion that just because someone attacking Klingons is human, that the Klingons will assume responsibility for it on the part of Earth. If Starfleet officers, wearing Starfleet uniforms, on what may be the flagship of the Federation, which was escorting the Chancellor, can be disavowed, doesn’t it seem reasonable to conclude that a bunch of rogue human criminals with no Starfleet standing could be? It makes no sense to me to argue the Klingons will see SF officers murdering their Chancellor, and be reasonable enough to be convinced that SF/Earth had nothing to do with it, but see a bunch of schmucks in ripped clothing and not be.

Jesse: they are not. But, the important aspect is how the Klingons will see their actions. Lest you forget, the Augments were once agents of Earth governments and were being stored on a United Earth-controlled facility.
Luigi Novi: Where was it stated that they were “agents” of the Earth governments? The Augments in this episode were born only about 20 years ago, after being stolen and raised by a criminal. Second, we don’t even know that the Klingons have any knowledge of Earth history regarding the Eugenics Wars. But even if they did, wouldn’t that mean, therefore, that they’d know that the Augments were considered madmen and criminals, were defeated, imprisoned, and/or escaped, and therefore conclude that Earth is being truthful when it tells them that their actions are not the actions of Earth?

Jesse: Their release and subsequent training certainly lends credence to a Klingon theory that Earth had some tacit involvement.
Luigi Novi: Subsequent training by whom? They were trained by Soong, not Starfleet, and again, Soong himself is a criminal who was held in jail for the past decade. Again, if the Klingons were to learn of the Augments’ “training,” then they’d learn that the guy who trained them was not a representative of Earth, but a criminal.

Jesse: I think you're forgetting something. The Klingons did what they did only because a very peace-minded Klingon, Azetbur, was head of the high council. Remember the scene in ST6 when Azetbur gets off the horn with the UFP Prez? Right away two Klingon generals are there with plans for war with the Federation. You can't tell me that these two were the only ones. They were ready to go to war with the Federation immediately after the Fed head of state disavowed the actions of the conspirators. If Azetbur had not been controlling things, war would have likely resulted from Kirk's actions. Instead, she restrained her people from war and made the decision to punish Kirk. ("Kirk--Kirk will pay for my father's death.")
Luigi Novi: So in other words, the Klingon leadership was capable of understanding that the UFP had nothing to do with Gorkon’s death. Again, this proves my point. Azetbur proceeded with the peace talks on the condition that the Federation would not try to rescue Kirk, not simply because of the peace talks. Had she really believed that the UFP killed her dad, she would likely have not gone through with the talks at all.

Rene: Luigi likes to b itch and call it nitpicking.
Luigi Novi: And you like to post anonymously to insult others, and then retreat when you’re proven wrong, as you still haven’t answered my question about those details you missed from that prior episode.

But if you can point to one example of “bitching,” I challenge to you do so. (I assume, however, that you’ll just chicken out like you usually do by not answering.)

JoshM: It wouldn't surprise me if that would work. Assuming you really do have the president in your limo.
Luigi Novi: We’re assuming you don’t. My point is, the cop would not believe you just on your say so, and since the Enterprise did not have him on board, it shouldn’t work.

JoshM: Don't you think that a genetically engineered genius could figure out a way to mask his transport?
Luigi Novi: I’d have preferred it if they explained how.

Anonymous: While Luigi's comment has merit, I still contend that there was not enough evidence in the episode to establish that the Briar patch here is the same one as the one in Insurrection. It is certainly possible, but it is not a certainty. Again, just because two places have the same name does not mean it is the same place.
Luigi Novi: I don’t think the creators would’ve given it the same name if it were something else. They would not deliberately establish something that confusing. I think it’s more likely that the writer of Soong’s line simply forgot the exact nature of the Federation’s newness to the Patch in that movie, so it’s a nit. I’ve included this in my Nitpick Document. Thanks, anon. (And if you want me to credit it to a different name other than “anonymous,” let me know. )

Anonymous: If it was the same place, why would Starfleet wait all those years to finally explore it and attempt to utilize the metaphasic radiation?
Luigi Novi: Dougherty told Soong that the Enterprise should not go there because it wasn’t fitted for all the anomalies of the region. It’s possible that at this point, Soong was unaware of these anomalies when he suggested it as a hiding place, and after they were discovered, it was some time before they came up with the shielding.

Dan Gunther: In "Breaking the Ice," some material in the comet interfered with the magnetic hold of the grappler. Unfortunately, the file is corrupted on my computer (???) so I can't say what the material was, because while my memory is pretty good, it's a good deal far from being idetic.
Luigi Novi: Eisilium? That was the rare mineral said to be in the comet.

The whole bit with the grappler seemed ridiculous. The Klingons suddenly lost their ability to aim their weapons and couldn't hit that grappler at close range?

Only a few questions...
Does Soong already have a kid?
Is he locked up for life?
Is he allowed to contact family?

The point being, how does he influence the next generation considering he's locked up?

Anonymous -- it's a lot easier to know if it's the same person posting all the time if you choose a nickname for yourself -- it's not that hard.

That magical appearance of Malik at the end smacked of "hey, we got another minute to fill. Quick, somebody write a scene!" Perhaps they could have used that time to give some lines to Travis -- that's not even funny anymore...

Anonymous: The point being, how does he influence the next generation considering he's locked up?
Luigi Novi:
1. His heir might simply inherit his genius and his interest in science.
2. His heir might become interested in it when learning about Soong's work.
3. Soong's sentence may not be a life sentence, so perhaps he'll get out one day and have kids.

KAM: 1. IIRC I don't think they paused or took a break so Archer could explain what he wanted to do.
2. Couldn't Archer have said something like "Ready the Grappler. Plan D."
When they're being chased Archer tells Reed to power down weapons, prepare to deploy the grappler, and then he tells Travis to drop to impulse. The next shot is of Enterprise dropping out of warp. I assume that Archer said something to the effect of, "when they come out, target the engine." It's a short time, but I think he could have done it.

That magical appearance of Malik at the end smacked of "hey, we got another minute to fill. Quick, somebody write a scene!" Perhaps they could have used that time to give some lines to Travis -- that's not even funny anymore...


I think you may be right. You can take that whole scene out and it effects nothing. Totally extraneous.

Reminded me of the end of Die Hard, when Alexander Gudonov appears, after we think all the bad guys are dead.
Did anyone else think that Malik resembled Jon Bon Jovi?

Reminded me of the end of Die Hard, when Alexander Gudonov appears, after we think all the bad guys are dead.
Did anyone else think that Malik resembled Jon Bon Jovi?

Didn't you know that's one of the movie rules -- HADAVIDS -- Henchman Always Dies A Very Interesting Death Syndrome. (And yes, I made that up). Similar to the Disney False Death Scene that plagues so many of their movies. "He's dead! <Sniff, sniff>" "No, I'm not!! Let's sing a song!"

Glad you brought up the Bon Jovi thing, I forgot to mention that earlier -- agreed wholeheartedly!

Did anyone find it curious that when the plague filled torpedoes were fired, they had to travel round to the other side of the planet, thus allowing time for the Enterprise to destroy them?

The Die Hard thing was one of the more implausible aspects of that movie, but at least it served a story purpose: It brought a resolution to Al's character conflict, in that he was finally able to pull his gun again.

The ending of the ep with Archer shooting a hole through Malik also seemed to be a replay of the fifth season ep of ST:TNG where Dr. Crusher shoots a hole through an alien.

The ending of the ep seems to indicate that another Soong episode will probably show up in the future...Perhaps, his first attempts at creating an android (after he gets out of prison, of course).

---

Quote:

Did anyone find it curious that when the plague filled torpedoes were fired, they had to travel round to the other side of the planet, thus allowing time for the Enterprise to destroy them?
-goodolpete

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"Superior ability breeds superior ambition" was also a line said by Spock in "Space Seed."

I had previously thought that it would be interesting to write a story in which Khan somehow made his way to the transporter room and beamed aboard the Enterprise before the Reliant exploded. I wonder if the creators inserted some parallels to "Wrath of Khan" in the story make Malik's final scene more surprising, since Khan didn't do that. Ah, probably not.

I thought the resolution (with Malik dying on the Bird of Prey) seemed rather flat, so I wasn't all that surprised by his reappearance. I still found myself unsatisfied, though. The buildup was well done, but the resolution of the arc just seemed to be less exciting than it should have been (as far as the fate of the Augments is concerned).

Luigi, I think you are misunderstanding my argument. Let me try to start over from the beginning.

I am arguing that Malik's plan has merit. I believe that the Klingons, while able to make the distinction between the official actions of Earth and the actions of human renegades, might choose not to.

For one, Klingons are aggressive. There's no arguing this. Even though we meet nice Klingons, poetic Klingons, intellectual Klingons, and even romantic Klingons, we still see that the culture, as a whole, is steeped in warrior traditions. Even Worf, a Klingon raised by humans who enjoyed taking his human girlfriend on moonlit walks along the beaches, feels that his warrior tradition is important--enough so that he attempts to force his son to follow them. Aggressive people tend to see aggression where it is not.

Case in point: Genesis. The Klingons took a look at a peaceful scientific project and saw a nefarious attempt to annihilate their people. "The Chase" (TNG): the Klingons, without knowing the end result of the DNA puzzle, assume that it must be something of military significance. So they tend to see the military aspects of anything.

Now, on to the attack. As I said, on two occassions, the Romulans believed that an action--despite the strongest protestations of the Federation to the contrary--would trigger war or at least end the peace. (Cases: ST6 & "The Mind's Eye" TNG). In both cases, the perpetrators were fairly low-ranking officers (Col. West and LCDR La Forge). This seems to imply that the Klingons are easily led into war. Whether or not the perpetrators wear a uniform, their government can disavow their actions at will. La Forge's execution of the Klingon governor is as unofficial as Malik's torpedo; as long as the two governments deny any responsibility, there is no real difference.

Your counterargument was that Malik's actions were less likely to be seen as official than La Forge's. I disagree on this point. It's true that Malik and his compatriots were raised by a civilian without Earth's permission. Yet, they were part of a human PROGRAM of attempted control. (The fact that they turned on their human masters reflects on the success of the program, not its intent.) The fact that the United Earth government chose not to destroy the program's fruits shows that--TO THE KLINGON POINT OF VIEW--Earth sees the augments as a potential weapon. Their benign uses aside, the KLingons will perceive the military implications and assume that the "plot" must be against them. We've seen that time and time again.

THe simple fact is, Soong was once employed by the United Earth government. He TWICE managed to steal Augment embryos AND he managed to steal deadly diseases. These diseases, despite Earth's disavowal of Malik's plan, came from an Earth station and were launched by soldiers that are part of an Earth program. (Again, we're speaking of Klingon perceptions.)

Think of this, too. On two occasions--Cmdr. Kruge's actions in ST3 and Capt. Klaa's actions in ST5--Klingons, without governmental approval, took aggressive action against the Federation. Yes, Klaa recanted in the end, but only at the urging of a "reasonable" Klingon, Gen. Korrd. Klaa's XO Vixis stated that his actions--even without his government's consent--would result in accolades for him. This suggests that Klingons are willing to ENDORSE the actions of renegades if the renegades take an action that fits in with their general intent or desire. In case you doubt this, look at ST3 + 4: Kruge, without orders, invades Federation space, fires on two Federation vessels (destroying one), and murders a Federation civilian. These are acts of war. Yet, what does his government do in the next movie? Disavow him? No, they go before the Federation Council and DEFEND his actions! He was taking action that agreed with the Klingon intent to "preserve [their] race." If they feel this way, what's to say that they wouldn't believe that Earth would hold the same viewpoint?

---

esse: I think you're forgetting something. The Klingons did what they did only because a very peace-minded Klingon, Azetbur, was head of the high council. Remember the scene in ST6 when Azetbur gets off the horn with the UFP Prez? Right away two Klingon generals are there with plans for war with the Federation. You can't tell me that these two were the only ones. They were ready to go to war with the Federation immediately after the Fed head of state disavowed the actions of the conspirators. If Azetbur had not been controlling things, war would have likely resulted from Kirk's actions. Instead, she restrained her people from war and made the decision to punish Kirk. ("Kirk--Kirk will pay for my father's death.")

Luigi Novi: So in other words, the Klingon leadership was capable of understanding that the UFP had nothing to do with Gorkon’s death. Again, this proves my point. Azetbur proceeded with the peace talks on the condition that the Federation would not try to rescue Kirk, not simply because of the peace talks. Had she really believed that the UFP killed her dad, she would likely have not gone through with the talks at all.

Just to clear this up, I think this proves my point. Everyone in the Klingon hierarchy is capable of seeing the difference between the actions of Kirk the renegade and Kirk the starfleet officer. Yet, those two Klingon generals were displaying that, their intellectual assessments aside, they were pushing for war. It was ONLY Azetbur that stopped them.

So... Destroying the biowarhead saved the planet? No pathogens survived? (I was expecting the destruction of the torpedo to disperse the germs more effectively. That'd be wonderful irony to have Enterprise make the situation worse by trying to help. A misunderstanding on that order is precisely what needs to happen to start the decades of "unremitting hostility"/cold war between Klingons and Humans.)

Also, the Klingons aren't mad at Archer for an incursion into their space, especially in the doubly dishonorable pretense of their bordercrossing? (Monkeying with the war signature probably isn't kosher to the Klingons, if only because they A) probably wouldn't think of it and B) probably couldn't do it themselves; and portraying the Chancellor as, shall I say, cavorting with Orions isn't very noble. And Klingons don't like to be tricked.)

So... Destroying the biowarhead saved the planet? No pathogens survived?
I assume that the torpedo exploded well above the atmosphere and wouldn't survive entry.

Jesse: I am arguing that Malik's plan has merit. I believe that the Klingons, while able to make the distinction between the official actions of Earth and the actions of human renegades, might choose not to.
Luigi Novi: Arguably true. But it’s an awful risk for Malik to take –and flat-out stupid too, especially for a genetically engineered intelligence—to gamble that they will. Malik is risking the Klingon Defense Force coming after him and his brothers and sisters, without having a firm escape strategy or anything, just because the Klingons might be dumb enough to assume one humans = all humans???? Again, this is tactically dumb. If you want to frame someone, then do it. Don’t commit the crime because you are of the same perceived group, and hope that the vengeance-seeker will be racist enough to dumb enough to definitely play into your plan.

Jesse: This seems to imply that the Klingons are easily led into war. Whether or not the perpetrators wear a uniform, their government can disavow their actions at will. La Forge's execution of the Klingon governor is as unofficial as Malik's torpedo; as long as the two governments deny any responsibility, there is no real difference. Your counterargument was that Malik's actions were less likely to be seen as official than La Forge's. I disagree on this point. It's true that Malik and his compatriots were raised by a civilian without Earth's permission. Yet, they were part of a human PROGRAM of attempted control.
Luigi Novi: And this is where I think you are just wrong. The image of a Starfleet officer killing a Klingon governor—and in full view of other Klingons—is a powerful IMAGE that will be burned into the minds of Klingons, an image that will be difficult to combat. An image has the power to transcend reason, thought, and time. “Program,” on the other hand, is not an image. It’s a detail. And details are iconic opposite of such images. They’re notorious for not being ingrained into the public psyche, because they tend to get buried beneath the avalanche of headlines, soundbites, and of course……images. “It’s an Earth program” is a fact that can only be uncovered by a deliberate search for the facts. It’s not something written on the Augment’s faces. It’s not something emblazoned on a T-shirt like a logo. Should the Klingons decide to investigate who these guys are, and find out about the program, then it is likely that they’ll find out everything else about them too, like the fact that the rest of their planet wasn’t exactly warmly disposed to them, hunted them down, killed/imprisoned them, forced them off the planet (according to rumor), and were so threatened by them that they locked them up as EMBRYOS!

You’re arguing that the Klingons will what, somehow magically learn a specific detail about how the Augments claim to be, a detail that they can only discover by deliberately looking for facts, or being told by Earth themselves, but not the other contextual facts, like the fact that they’re psychotic criminals who are being hunted by Starfleet? How do you figure this? Why argue selectively the highly likely discovery of some details and not others?

Jesse: The fact that the United Earth government chose not to destroy the program's fruits shows that--TO THE KLINGON POINT OF VIEW--Earth sees the augments as a potential weapon.
Luigi Novi: No. It might show that to the Klingons. It might not. We don’t know one way or the other. The fact is, all your musings on Klingon “perceptions” are just arbitrary assumptions, rather than proper statements of likelihood. What do you know about what the Klingons “will” perceive. At best, you can speculate about what they might perceive. Why you pretend with such mathematical certainty that This Fact + That Fact = Definite Conclusion, when it should be “This set of circumstances may lead to one of two possibilities,” I don’t know.

Jesse: Think of this, too. On two occasions--Cmdr. Kruge's actions in ST3 and Capt. Klaa's actions in ST5--Klingons, without governmental approval, took aggressive action against the Federation. Yes, Klaa recanted in the end, but only at the urging of a "reasonable" Klingon, Gen. Korrd. Klaa's XO Vixis stated that his actions--even without his government's consent--would result in accolades for him. This suggests that Klingons are willing to ENDORSE the actions of renegades if the renegades take an action that fits in with their general intent or desire.
Luigi Novi: False equation. One Klingon First Officer does not = the Klingons. You are again confusing a possibility with a fact, deliberately ignoring other possibilities that could account for the set of circumstances you present, acting as if that set of circumstances automatically makes your hypothetical scenario the only possible one. Here’s another:

Klaa may have thought to make up a story about how the encounter with Kirk occurred, so that he could’ve come off as the innocent victim who was attacked by Kirk—no, wait! Kirk and an entire armada of ships—and then bravely defended him and his ships, earning him a statue in the Hall of Warriors. Want “proof”? How about the Klingon rewriting of history seen in Unification part I(TNG) and You are Cordially Invited…(DS9)? Hell, how about the very distortion by the Klingon Ambassador in the beginning of ST IV that you yourself cited? If Klaa’s crew was extremely loyal to him as Vixis was, they might go along with him to earn some of that glory themselves, right? Dissenters? Feh. Klaa could just kill ‘em and argue that they died in battle. Or admit he killed them for disobedience, incompetence or cowardice. Plenty of examples of that too, after all—A Matter of Honor(TNG), Soldiers of the Empire(DS9), and yes, Kruge killing a crewman in ST III, yet another example that you provided. (See how easy it is to make believe that established material that may support a hypothesis is actually proof that it’s a fact?)

If the Klingons would endorse Klaa’s actions, then why did Koord not do so?

Hell, You could make the same argument for Admiral Pressman when he was captain of the Pegasus in The Pegasus(TNG). Not only did the majority of his crew mutiny against him because he was committing an illegal act, but he claimed to Picard when exposed at the end of the episode (perhaps unjustifiably so, we can’t be sure) that he had friends in high places that would protect him. Should a neutral alien observer conclude that “This suggests that humans are willing to ENDOSE the actions of renegades if the renegades take an action that fits in with their general intent or desire”, when at best, such a statement should at best be only a provisional speculation. In the absence of further study, attempting to start a war solely on this piece of information would be as dumb for our hypothetical observer as it was for our genetically-engineered intellect Malik.

Jesse: In case you doubt this, look at ST3 + 4: Kruge, without orders, invades Federation space, fires on two Federation vessels (destroying one), and murders a Federation civilian. These are acts of war. Yet, what does his government do in the next movie? Disavow him? No, they go before the Federation Council and DEFEND his actions! He was taking action that agreed with the Klingon intent to "preserve [their] race." If they feel this way, what's to say that they wouldn't believe that Earth would hold the same viewpoint?
Luigi Novi: An episode or movie that would clarify the point.

Jesse: I think you're forgetting something. The Klingons did what they did only because a very peace-minded Klingon, Azetbur, was head of the high council. Remember the scene in ST6 when Azetbur gets off the horn with the UFP Prez? Right away two Klingon generals are there with plans for war with the Federation. You can't tell me that these two were the only ones.
Luigi Novi: You can’t tell me these two represented all Klingons, and when we saw what their leader was like (and her immediate predecessor), we see that they did not.

Jesse: They were ready to go to war with the Federation immediately after the Fed head of state disavowed the actions of the conspirators. If Azetbur had not been controlling things, war would have likely resulted from Kirk's actions. Instead, she restrained her people from war and made the decision to punish Kirk. ("Kirk--Kirk will pay for my father's death.")
Luigi Novi: Which proves my point, that the leadership was able to see beyond the pure militarism of its KDF warmongers. So too might have Chancellor M’Rek.

Jesse: Just to clear this up, I think this proves my point. Everyone in the Klingon hierarchy is capable of seeing the difference between the actions of Kirk the renegade and Kirk the starfleet officer. Yet, those two Klingon generals were displaying that, their intellectual assessments aside, they were pushing for war. It was ONLY Azetbur that stopped them.
Luigi Novi: What do you mean “only”? She’s the head the entire Empire! In what way does two against one indicate the temperament of the entire Empire, particularly when the one is the leader of the entire empire? Military brass tend to be militaristic because it’s their job. The leader’s job is to see beyond individual biases and considerations, and look at the big picture, and that’s what that job tends to do when the occupant of that job is a good leader. This “only” comment on your part sounds as if you’re implying that those two represented the entire Empire, when in fact, we have no idea of that one way or the other, and is akin to pointing to the scenes in Thirteen Days when that Admiral wanted to go to war, and arguing he somehow represented all Americans, that “only” President Kennedy stopped it, as if Kennedy was some lone voice in a crowd, rather than the competent and popular leader of millions that he was, who was leader precisely because it was his job (and his abilities) to see beyond the myopic viewpoint of people like that Admiral.

Your position is mind-boggling. You’re arguing that a demonstrated example of a leader not being dumb enough to be goaded into war, even by the assassination of her father, and who was not dumb enough to assume All Humans and their Actions = Actions Sanctioned by their Planet’s Government, is actually proof that such a leader could be that dumb? How in the world do you figure this?

The fact remains that Malik could not possibly know that his actions would definitely goad the Klingons into a war with all of Earth, and that even if it did, that the Augments themselves would not be felled by its repurcussions. If you’re going to frame someone for a crime, you make sure that no one traces it back to the actual perpertrator—i.e.: you. What if the Empire put out a dictate to "ethnically cleanse the quadrant of all humans, especially those yokels that stole our Bird of Prey"? What then, Mr. Genetically-Engineered Brilliant Tactician?

I agree with both of you. I have a feeling, based on all we've seen of Klingons, that Jesse is right and the Klingons would attack humans indiscriminately (particularly since they've only known of them for a few years and aren't in a position to discriminate too much even if they wanted to) and indeed might use it as an excuse to attack and annex Earth, which they might want to do anyway but are prevented from doing by Earth's alliance with Vulcan.

On the other hand, Luigi's point is supported by the fact that the Klingons demanded Archer alone at the end of the second season, and Kirk and McCoy alone in STVI.

But I think Luigi wins because, although the Klingons might well act as Jesse says they will, how does Malik know this? He's been frozen for two hundred years! What does he know of Klingons? (Old DS9 reruns? )

Malik has grown up on a world near the Klingons so he might have some knowledge of their psychology, Thande.

Don't forget the last paragraph of my post above, Thande. How does one account for that problem?

KAM: The episode hasn't aired yet in the UK, so I'm just arguing based on what other people have said...which, come to think of it, is kinda a waste of time.

Luigi: I don't know. Possibly the old 'revenge being more important than survival to crazy genengineered superman' thing from STII?

Regarding the appearance of Malik on the Enterprise:
How did he transport so quickly? He was on the Klingon bridge, not in the transporter room. If he did a site-to-site transport, would this be the first one in Trek chronology?

Regarding the torpedo:
How did the Enterprise catch & destroy the other one? Don't all torpedos go the same speed?

Loved Archer's method of getting out of the Central Core. Took Guts.

OK, at the risk of igniting a flame war, and admitting that I have not scoured the Trek boards for this answer, can we make an educated guess as to when the Eugenics Wars were? Obviously its not from the 1990's as we lived through that time with no war (fortunately) and Voyager's crew was on Earth in the 1990's. And I assume that was is different than the war that produced the Post Atomic Horror? If this has been discussed on another board, please point it out to me. Thanks.

Harvey, it is generally accepted that the Eugenics Wars of the 1990s were actually made up of small wars and political manuvers that occured throughout Eurasia, Africa and the "Third World" as Khan and his fellow supermen vied with each other for power. The North American continent was untouched by open warfare, thus explaining the scenes in "Future's End" from Voyager. This subject is expanded upon in Greg Cox's excellent two-volume book "Eugenics Wars: The Rise and Fall of Khan Noonien Singh". The EW is indeed different from the Post-Atomic Horror of 2079, which is the result of the Third World War which occurred sometime in the 2050s as referenced in "First Contact" (the TNG movie).

Thanks Captain Dunsel. I always thought that the Eugenics Wars and WWIII were one and the same. Spock made a comment about not revealing to a war-weary world about 50-100 supermen not being accounted for. And the DY-100 ship they were in came from the 1990's.

I have not read those books, but I plan too.

Happy reading when you get those books, I highly recommend them. Greg Cox not only tied a lot of little loose ends together, he did so using Gary Seven and a whole slew of minor Trek characters and sly references to characters from other TV shows as well. Not to mention weaving political facts from our "real" world into the "fictional politics" of the supermen during the EW. When you stop and think about it, you'll be amazed at the sheer audacity of the way he connects all the various characters and events, and then you'll be amazed that he actually sat down and charted this story out! But it's a fun story nonetheless.

"Loved Archer's method of getting out of the Central Core. Took Guts."

But wouldn't he have popped like a balloon in that hard vacuum, Outland-style?

I was pretty disappointed at this story arc. Finally we got genetically engineered superhumans, only to have them disposed of in just three episodes.

While three whole SEASONS were wasted on the lame@$$ Temporal Cold War.

$ucks to be me, doesn't it?

And that's the bottom line...if you smell what I'm cooking.

But wouldn't he have popped like a balloon in that hard vacuum, Outland-style?

That's an exaggeration. See Arthur C. Clarke's Earthlight for a better explanation of "breathing vacuum".

The human body is actually fairly resilient.

The Earth Government can protest all they want that they had nothing to do with the attacks. The Klingons either don't believe them or don't care.

Malik could not be certain of that, nor could he be certain that in going after Earth and humans, that the Klingons would not also go after the Augments as well.

Well, in "Borderland," they WERE already scouting for an attack. Malik could think that any attack could push them over the edge into ACTUALLY attacking.

First, were in that episode was it established that they were scouting for an attack?

Second, again, how could Malik know that he and the Augments would not be hunted down along with the rest of humanity? He couldn't, which is why his plan was dumb, especially for a genetically-engineered intelligence.

First, exactly 12:20 into the episode "Borderland."
ARCHER: I just received an intelligence report. A Klingon warship was just spotted near Proxima colony. Admiral Forrest thinks they could be conducting reconaissance for a future strike.

Second, I didn't say his plan wasn't dumb, I'm just trying to get a handle on what Malik's mindset MIGHT HAVE been. Obviously, like many of the genetically enhanced supermen that came before him, he let his pride and ambition get in the way of his intelligence.

Luigi Novi: Malik could not be certain of that, nor could he be certain that in going after Earth and humans, that the Klingons would not also go after the Augments as well.
Wasn't that the point of going to the Briar Patch? Even if the Klingons came after the Augments, they'd never find them?

Malik didn't want to go into the Briar Patch. Soong did. Malik wanted to exist out in the open, and resented Soong's hide of running and hiding. (His mindset seemed to resemble Khan's in Act 4 of Space Seed(TOS); As he told Joaquin after freeing him, Otto, Kati, and the others, whereas they ruled a planet before, now they had the entire universe.) If his plan was that of Soong's then that might've made a bit more tactical sense. But for what he did want, it was dumb.

And Dan, sorry for misinterpreting you.

Luigi Novi: (His mindset seemed to resemble Khan's in Act 4 of Space Seed(TOS); As he told Joaquin after freeing him, Otto, Kati, and the others, whereas they ruled a planet before, now they had the entire universe.)

Dan Gunther: Yeah, that's exactly how I see it. The same thing happened when Khan's aide told him that with the Reliant, they could go anywhere. But rather than spirit themselves away, Khan absolutely HAD to take revenge on Kirk. In the end, it was dumb, and ultimately Khan defeated himself with his pride and hubris. I think if Malik had been allowed to continue, he would have ultimately self-destructed. (One could argue that he in fact did self-destruct by trying to kill Soong rather than hide away on the Enterprise until he could escape.)

Second, again, how could Malik know that he and the Augments would not be hunted down along with the rest of humanity? He couldn't, which is why his plan was dumb, especially for a genetically-engineered intelligence

Not dumb so much as egomaniacal. He doesn't consider himself or the other augments as human, but as something better than human, and he's so conceited he can't even conceive of the thought that the Klingons would mistake them for humans.

That reminds of what Smike said to Archer: something like, "You can't stop them. No one can." A ridiculous statement. I mean, if the Klingon and/or Earth fleets come after them and blow their ship up, that would most certainly stop them. Maybe the Augments irrationally thought they were indestructible.

Perhaps Malik is willing to take that risk. He feels confident that they can defeat any Klingons that come their way.

Dr Who once survived for 6 minutes in space.

Soong told Persis that if Malik goes thru with his plan it would prove everything people have been saying about the Augments for the past 150 years. That would seem to indicate that the EW were public knowledge in 2004. Also Space Seed established that Khan's empire extended from Northern India to the Middle East. We're talking about a Hindu reigning over a predominantly Muslim area. It would be hard to keep that a secret. I doubt that Al-Qaeda, Taliban, Saddam, and Saud family would allow that.

From Klingon POV the very existence of humans capable of defeating them may be reason enough to conquer Earth. The Klingons have always been a shoot first ask questions later kind of race.

Malik probably thinks that by the time the Klingons find them the embryos will be be mature and ready to fight.

Khan was a Sikh, not a Hindu, judging from his name (Khan Noonien Singh). Same problem with ruling over Muslims, though.

Somebody with the last name of Khan could have been born with a different last name; could change religions; could have his propaganda ministers use disinformation to give different populations a different idea of his "true" affiliation.

He could also appear as a "unifier" (not a unificator--he's not emulating BushJr.). He could somehow encourage all those groups to work together against a common enemy. (Your first guess is too obvious--let's hear your other guesses).

He could be a veritible political chameleon.
And now somebody will suggest he gained popularity appearing at nightclubs with his wit and humor as a stand-up chameleon.

a stand-up chameleon

But wouldn't it be difficult for him to do off-color jokes that way?

Good question - when does Arik get a chance to find a mate and have a son to carry on his cybernetic work? His brother could. Does he have one who has male children that will carry on their jailbird uncle's work?

And why are the Klingons not able to track one of their own ships in their own territory?

He gets a chance to have a mate after he finishes his prison sentence.

He could have had a child before he went to jail.

Hey, scum like Scott Peterson get all sorts of fan mail from poor deluded women, so who's to say that someone like Arik Soong doesn't have his share of groupies as well? Just add in some conjugal visits, and poof, there's Noonien's great granddaddy in her belly.

Also perhaps he was able to get out at some point since he did help the Enterprise stop the augments. I think that part of the reason he was stil being held at the begining was because he wouldn't say what happened to the embryos. Now that the augments are gone perhaps he could eventually come up for parole.

Unoriginal Magratheans of the week
It was painfully, painfully obvious from the Bird of Prey computer images of the planet that its geography was an exact duplicate of Earth, only with the bottom half of Africa cut off. Well, I suppose it could have been another of those Hodgkin's Law planets from TOS.

Soong: "Oh, and while I'm at it," [raises voice significantly] "DID I MENTION THAT I'VE NEVER FIGURED OUT HOW TO PROGRAM CONTRACTIONS?!"
The Subtle Hint^TM at the end was a little blatant.

If that phaser cannon blast at the BOP was supposed to disable its main power grid, how did Malik transport at all? I don't doubt his super-intellect would aid in that but it didn't seem like he had the time writhing on the floor and over the computer panel to overload the engines. Wow! Great arguments by both Luigi and James, and others too of course. Although more speculation than fact was involved, we will not know what would have happened had the augments succeeded, but I do agree that ultimately Malik would have dug his, and his kin's, own grave.

Thanks, Night.

This may have been mentioned, but why does T'pol change uniforms at least 4 times in the first 12 minutes of the episode?

She starts in purple, then goes to red while meeting in sickbay, then back to purple, then when they catch up with the BoP, she's in blue...

I'm beginning to think that her uniform changes depending on the alert status of the ship...

Gotta love that advanced 22nd century fabric.

Regarding soong having a son, he probably just made a clone of himself with superior intellect but without the bad vibes of Malik's gang.

Also, I wonder if Malik was so violent and bent of revenge because he was abused by Michael Jackson... I assume that Malik's shoulder belt came from MJ.

Also, assuming that Data's creator was in fact a direct relative of the Soong in this episode, you think he named his son, Noonian Soong after Kahn's middle name?

It's a "Mood Uniform". The '70s are back in fashion in the 22nd Century.

Speaking of genetically engineered people, if they engage in intamate relations like it was suggested Malik and Perses did prior to her getting cut up, and suppose she actually became pregnant, would their child also be an augment or would it be a normal human?