• The Forge Board 2 October 17 - 10:08 pm

Am I really one of the first posters? Cool! Anyway, I realized I was a Trek nerdling when I knew the answers to the Vulcan's two questions(and couldn't resist shouting them out):
1. T'Plana Hath (sp?) Matron of Vulcan Philosophy
2. Nothing unreal Exists
Both being on Spocks quiz in Star Trek 4

Possible nit:
On the coffins with the pre-UFP flags, given that the blue globe and branches were laying the across the short side of the coffin (so that to see the symbol correctly, you had to look at it from the foot of the coffin) either the flags were really big and placed sideways, or the symbol was on the flags sideways.

So Surak was from 1800 years ago? I thought that The Savage Curtain established a date of 8000 years ago. But my memory may be incorrect.

Interesting that they seem to be taking some novels and making parts of them canon.

Vulcan's Forge. Or was the Forge mentioned in Yesteryear(TAS)?

Glad to see Michael Nouri's career has recovered somewhat since his recent stint on The Young and the Restless. Not that I watch that show or anything. Ahem.

I thought it was a pretty good episode! One point that's not a nit, just something that jumped out at me: Did anybody else think that Trip sounded really insensitive in sickbay when he said something along the lines of, "I don't care about the body, only the mind." I'm sure the poor comatose guy would have appreciated that sentiment.

I'm startng to like Soval a lot. Started with Home, and continuing here.

So the giant of the Federation (see Amok Time(TOS) was an outlaw! Incidentally, I believe that this episode pretty much puts end to any speculation that T'Pol is part of T'Pau's, Sarek's, or Spock's family.

---Critique:
---Well, now this episode finally clears up a few things about the Vulcans, doesn’t it? It was like a breath of fresh air.
---As soon as I heard about the Syrrannites, I suspected, and it was confirmed by Arev in Act 2, that the Vulcans we have known heretofore who abstain from lying are part of a cultural revolution that takes place sometime after the 2150’s, and the idea of Surak’s katra being carried around by modern Vulcans seems like an innovative way of explaining how the next Vuclan revolution takes place. The fact that Archer may have now touched Surak himself gives Archer a certain mythic quality, and an even greater sense of prestige in the pantheon of Trek captains, much as was done with Sisko.
---Naturally, I’m also liking the evolving state of politics and power that marks human-Vulcan relations. I really liked Forrest and Soval’s conversation in the opening shot of Act 1, and I was shocked by the death of Forrest. It’s funny how he’s been mostly a minor character, but now that he’s gone, he feels missed. With the willingness now to show such progression in the series, including the deaths of important characters, the series is feeling more and more like what the franchise used to. I also liked the conversation between Archer and Soval in the cargo bay in Act 1, which seems to reflect the fact that their relationship may have improved, beginning most recently with Home.
---Finally, we see the Enterprise crew having fun together by playing sports. I liked that scene!

---Notes:
---The opening shot of Act 1 establishes that Admiral Forrest’s first name was Maxwell. Soval mentions to Archer in Act 1 that Forrest pushed the idea of joint human-Vulcan missions, and Archer’s support for the idea may be an indication that the United Federation of Planets originated largely with this idea of Forrest’s.
---We learn that T’Pol, like Spock, had a small, domesticated sehlat as a pet when she was a child. We learn that in 2154, T’Pau (presumably the same one we know from Amok Time(TOS) is “thirty-two standard years” old. We learn in the opening scene of Act 3 that Soval is a Melder. We learn later in the same Act that Surak died on Mount Seleya, but that his katra was believed to have been taken elsewhere.

---Continuity Nods:
---This episode contains many Vulcan Continuity nods: T’Pau from Amok Time(TOS), the Forge, whose first canonical mention was Change of Heart(DS9), the sehlat, which was first mentioned in Journey to Babel (and seen in the animated episode Yesteryear), the quote by T’Plana-Hath and Kiri-kin-tha’s First Law of Metaphysics that Arev quizzes Archer on in Act 2, which were two of Spock’s questions in his test in the beginning of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, and the katra, which was first established in Star Trek III: The Search for Spock.

---Terms:
Octran Fertility Contests Phemonena to which Phlox compares basketball in the second scene of Act 1.
Administrator V’Las The Head of the Vulcan High Command, who meets Archer in the third scene of Act 1.
Stel Chief Investigator of the Vulcan Security Directorate, to whom Administrator V’Las introduces Archer in the third scene of Act 1.
Syrrannites A small group of Vulcans who follow what T’Pol calls a corrupt form of Surak’s teachings, as she states in the fourth scene of Act 1. Soval says in this scene that they’ve been vocal about their opposition to government, but have always been peaceful.
Syrran The leader of the syrrannites, as V’Las tells Archer in the fourth scene of Act 1, and whom V’Las refers to as a dissident and a dangerous zealot.
T’Pau The Vulcan whose DNA is found on the bomb, as Phlox says in the fifth scene of Act 1. Stel states that she is a well-known Syrrannite.
The Forge A desert on Vulcan, in which Surak is believed to have traveled 1,800 years ago. Syrrannites follow the same path today seeking enlightenment, as T’Pol tells Archer in the opening scene of Act 2. Trip tells Archer in the next scene that the Forge is marked by electrical sandstorms and geomagnetic instability so bad that technology does not function there. T’Pol tells Archer subsequently that the dampening field extends only a few hundred meters above the ground so that patrol craft may fly over it.
Gateway Site on Vulcan where Surak supposedly began his journey into the Forge, as T’Pol tells Archer when they first arrive at the Forge in Act 2.
telomeres Region of highly repetitive DNA at the end of a chromosome, which functions as an aglet, which prevent the loss of useful genetic information during eukaryotic chromosomal replication. Phlox says that they act as a “genetic clock,” which grow shorther each time a cell divides, and which allows someone’s age to be determined from a cell sample as Phlox and Trip mention in sickbay in Act 2.
Corporal Askuith The guard who was stationed at the Vulcan embassy, and who allowed Stel through with the bomb, as Trip and Phlox note from the video log in Act 2.
Arev Vulcan man and Syrrannite who drives off the sehlat stalking Archer and T’Pol in Act 2, and whose name T’Pol says means “desert wind.”
The Plain of Blood A flat valley that crosses the Forge, to which Arev brings Archer and T’Pol in Act 2, and which he mentions some say Surak crossed when the hot blood of battle still flowed green, but who cooled it with logic.
sandfire Term for a Vulcan electrical sandstorm, one of which appears near Archer, T’Pol and Arev at the end of the closing scene of Act 2, causing them to flee.
T’Karath Sanctuary Location of T’Pol’s mother, not far from the cave into which Archer, T’Pol and Arev take refuge from the sand storm in Act 3, as Arev tells them.
vokau Word that Arev says to Archer when melding with him before his death in Act 4, which T’Pol later tells Archer is the Vulcan word for “remember.”

Oh, and the use of the "remember" during a katra transfer. That's a Continuity Nod I forgot to mention.

Not a nitpick, but wasn't T'Pol originally supposed to be T'Pau, but for some legal reason they couldn't use the name?

Anyway, I loved this episode. Anyone who's been a Trek fan should see it, even if they hate Enterprise. This ep wasn't just good for Enterprise, it was good period.

It think it was dumb to openly confront the
vulcan inpsector that HE is the one who placed the bombs also because they told that the ambassador is a mindmelder which will have consequences for him. Why didn't they try to trap the inspector with their knowledge.

Was the leader of the Command on board Enterprise the whole time? What did he do there and why didn't he wonder where Archer was.

When they beam down they get the plan of gaps in the satelite survaillance WHEN the transport can't be detected. But Trip doesn't seem to wait for the exact moment and just energizes.
"WHEN" sounds like a gap of some time and not of some place.


Pretty good episode.
Better than the Augments story.

Seems like Enterprise now tries to fill some
history gaps rather than making complete new stuff (temporal war, Delphic expance,...) up.

I have mixed feelings about this episode. While I welcome a more indepth examination of Vulcan beliefs, several disturbing things arise. I didn't particularly like the heavy handed allusions to Christ and Moses when mention was made of Syran. Although, I agree with the point that his message may have been misused by his followers, T'Pol's nonbelief in him was presented as a sort of negative. It's almost similar to criticising atheists (on Earth). Is that supposed to be a veiled criticism of many here? I don't think Gene Rodenberry would have approved of this message. Vulcan beliefs are now presented more as mysticism than logic based. Or is the whole point that the Syrannites are an outmoded sect using terrorism to attack (what they see) as a too secular state?

They can sing, they can dance, they can even tap-dance!
It seems that Starfleet is doing everything in this century... Guarding important prisoners, conducting dimplomatic negotiations, serving as lobby clerks, etc.

The cave didn't want to talk to him, so now the sandstorm is ignoring it.
When Arev, Archer and T'Pol were barricading the entrance, the area in front of cave looked perfectly normal. But exterior shot showed us that sandstorm has already engulfed the cave.

Also, I find it kinda ironic that Archer was wearing his rank insignia on his collar...

And... they killed Forrest? Offscreen? That was just about the most effective way to weaken the emotional impact of this characters death.

Well, I know that Enterprise was the only starship in the sector but don't you think they would have sent some Forensic Experts from Earth to investigate the explosion of the embassy?
I guess Starfleet does do everything.

So there were two explosives in that package? The real one and the fake one? But the fake one was real, too? Except it was meant to be found and scanned but then explode soon after? What if it wasn't scanned? All that work would have been for nothing?

Just a comment- the Embassy had writing on it saying "United Earth Embassy"(or something to that effect) Is "United Earth" the formal name of the Earth Government? I wonder if TPTB chose that name to coincide with United Earth Space Probe Agency, which was sometimes used on TOS as before the term Starfleet became more common.

Speaking of the writing on the Embassy, shouldn't their have been writing in Vulcan on the Embassy too? It is on Vulcan, after all.

Is the Administrator of the Vulcan High Command the leader of Vulcan, or just of the space fleet?

I agree with those who dislike the previews within the episode, especially when they preview the very end of the episode. Is that UPN's idea? Don't most people who are halfway through an episode generally finish it? Why do they need a preview to keep them watching? (I mean no offense to anyone who does only watch half an episode.)

Wow, this episode is like a dream come true... exactly what Enterprise should have been doing since the start. The nods to continuity (I loved the reference to Spock's questions in Star Trek IV... "How do you feel?") were well placed and very, very welcome.

When it comes down to it, I haven't been this excited about Trek since the final Dominion War arc... the faith is restored, as it were.

Richie? Anonymous is at it again.

The post has been moved to the Garbage Dump. Butch the Roving Mod.

For some reason, I thought Soval looked strikingly like T'Pol in the first scene when talking to Forrest.

I love the color of T'Pol's new uniform, such a vivid purple. But then, I'm color blind...

One disadvantage to keeping myself in the dark about the current episode (except for the in-episode previews, grrr!), is not knowing that it's going "To Be Continued"!!

I thought Michael Nouri played a very appropriate and noble Vulcan -- just something about his demeanor I really liked.

Somekinda security camera?? It's not even "ooh, weird, alien"!

I was a little confused about the time-shifting. It starts with "17 years ago" in what may be the shortest teaser ever. Then we are up to the present with Forrest and Soval (I must have missed the Stardate). I wasn't even sure we were in the "present" until I saw the entire senior staff playing ball together. They are all in pretty good shape, I might add. Even Phlox has trimmed down quite a bit.

And not a nit, but an observation. The "17 years ago" subtitle doesn't seem quite right -- should it have been something like "17 years previously"? (considering the future time of the present storyline).

Wow. Impressive episode. Let's do the math:
Hire a writer/producer who shows respect for established Trek, and the episodes improve. Add a writing team who have written sucessful Trek novels that are filled with detailed Trek lore references and the stories get better. Conclusion? If you are going to produce a Trek series, HIRE WRITERS THAT KNOW STAR TREK!!!

Here's hoping that TPTB have learned their lesson. If they have, then we fans can only benefit.

I thought Michael Nouri played a very appropriate and noble Vulcan -- just something about his demeanor I really liked.

Agreed. Too bad they had to kill him off.

Someone's probably mentioned this elsewhere, but Robert Foxworth (Administrator V'Las) also played Admiral Leyton who staged a coup on Earth in Homefront(DS9) and Paradise Lost(DS9)

I thought I already posted but I guess not. Anyway, I loved this episode. I cannot wait to see where this story goes. It was so interesting and mysterious. And there was basketball. That was cool.

Soul: Well, I know that Enterprise was the only starship in the sector but don't you think they would have sent some Forensic Experts from Earth to investigate the explosion of the embassy?
I guess Starfleet does do everything.
I thought about this too. It seems to be one of those "Enterprise is the only ship in range" stories. Remember, Earth is something like 16 ly away. At warp 4.5 that would take around two months to reach Vulcan. And even if they used Vulcan ships, my guess is it's still a few days. Enterprise was there first.

Influx: I love the color of T'Pol's new uniform, such a vivid purple. But then, I'm color blind...
I also thought it looked nice.

I missed the teaser though. What happened?

What happened?

A title card said "17 years ago". A figure (apparently Arev) walks through a cave and finds a stone artifact, which he picks up and brushes some dust from it. He whispers "Surak". Cue theme song...

Archer & T'Pol heading into a hotter than Hell desert & they don't wear any head & neck protection? True Archer later put on a baseball cap, but sheesh, sure doesn't offer much protection. Archer's neck will probably be redder than a lobster.

Also it would have been better for Archer to have some wraparound sunglasses rather than what he was wearing.

BTW Luigi, one continuity ref you missed. T'Pol mentions her inner eyelid, first mentioned in Operation--Annihiliate!.
Although Spock said Vulcan's tend to not think about their inner eyelids, soooooo... NNAN but interesting that T'Pol would think to mention it.

I missed Friday's airing, but caught Saturday's. No preview of upcoming scenes & I was surprised to hear a closing theme to the show. I guess normally the theme is drowned out by announcer's telling of upcoming shows.

elwood - But Trip doesn't seem to wait for the exact moment and just energizes.
Actually Archer told him to Energize, then he did it. But yeah, I agree with you on the When aspect. Perhaps the writer should have had Archer say 'Energize when ready', then we have a long pause before Trip beams them.

Rona - Vulcan beliefs are now presented more as mysticism than logic based.
They've been doing that for a long time. It was probably at its worst in Star Trek III.

I wondered at the choice of the sect's name. Syranite sounds similar to Syrian. Hmmm...

I must live in a fortunate region. Enterprise is carried on a WB affiliate in my area and they do not air previews during the show nor do they speak over the closing credits. I've heard the closing theme on just about every show since the first broadcast.

However, is it just me or does it look like that in the shot of T'Pol used during the commercial bumpers (those shots of the crew standing on a red background) she looks like she's smirking and about to break character and laugh?

And a question: Spock pronounced "Surak" as "Sir-RACK" yet Archer and company consistently say "Sir-ROCK". Anyone know why, or could it be a preference of TPTB?

Archer & T'Pol heading into a hotter than Hell desert & they don't wear any head & neck protection? True Archer later put on a baseball cap, but sheesh, sure doesn't offer much protection. Archer's neck will probably be redder than a lobster.

T'Pol doesn't need it. As she points out to him, Vulcans are evolved for desert survival.

About those low flying aircraft searching for Archer and T'Pol. Doesn't Vulcan have any orbital satellites which could check the area (their telescopic lenses wouldn't be affected by the low level radiation, or whatever affects the planes' sensors). That electrical storm almost seemed have the character of a living being. Maybe, one of the upcoming eps (in this trilogy) might show that these 'storms' are guided, or created, by the Syranites.

This ep also looks like a way was found to conveniently get rid of T'Pol's husband ( and possibly put him in prison for the bomb attack?).

When Arev and Archer put the stones over the cave entrance as the sandstorm approaches, they seem to have equal difficulty (or ease, depending on how you look at it) in moving the stones. Aren't Vulcans supposed to be much stronger than humans? It would have been a nice touch to have Archer struggle with a huge rock, and then have Arev (or T'Pol, for that matter) say, "Here, let me get that for ya", and toss it into place with one hand.

Given that he’s survived being on a bomb of a series for over three seasons, one more wouldn’t matter
Just out of curiosity, how did Soval survive the bomb blast if Forrest was killed? I could understand if perhaps he took the brunt of the explosion or perhaps some shrapnel that he shielded Soval from, but I would’ve liked this clarified.
Given how often security personnel foul things up in Trek, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if they constantly changed their names
Vulcan’s security agency was called the “Ministry of Security” in The Seventh, but V’Las and Stel refer to it as the “Security Directorate” in in Act 1 of this episode.
Guess those season four cutbacks really are hurting them
Once again, there is no depiction of separation of responsibilities among Earth officials. Why are Reed and Travis investigating the bomb blast in Act 1? Since when are security experts and helmsmen trained in investigative techniques? And hell, even if they were, why would the Enterprise’s crew be conducting it? Doesn’t Starfleet already have people under whose jurisdiction the embassy falls?
I guess the Enterprise is doing work on the side as a funeral home to makeup for those budget cuts
Why are the coffins of those killed in the bombing of the embassy on the Enterprise, as seen in the sixth scene of Act 1? Wouldn’t they be on Earth?
Too bad the sehlat’s not a Trekker. He might’ve lost interest in the second season.
If technology doesn’t work in the Forge, then Archer and T’Pol should’ve had Reed put together some mechanical weapons to defend against sehlats and other predators there. Instead, they just scramble up a hill and seemingly plan on staying there for “days” until the sehlat loses interest.
No, but it’s been afraid of climbing ever since reading Into Thin Air
Also, T’Pol tells Archer that they are safe up on the hill because the sehlat will not climb that high. Why is this? Did it leave its hiking shoes at home, or something?
Geez, Vulcan test writers are worse than that guy in the bar in Good Will Hunting
Wow, isn’t it quite a coincidence that the two questions that Arev used to quiz Archer in Act 2 just happened to have both been on Spock’s reeducation test in ST IV?
It wasn’t him being a Melder that shocked him, it was the “telepathic porn” films featuring a young Soval that he found on the Internet
Despite his experiences with Vulcan bigots in Stigma, Phlox doesn’t appear at all surprised when Soval reveals in the opening scene of Act 3 that he is a Melder.
Geez, the one opportunity the creators have to have T’Pol wearing less clothing for legitimate story reasons, and they overdress her? What next, an Alien of the Week firing a machine gun into a crowd of redshirts and not hitting any of them?
Why are Archer and T’Pol wearing moderately heavy-looking jackets in the Forge? And why are the Starfleet desert outfits beige? Shouldn’t they be white, like T’Pol’s, in order to reflect the most sunlight?

Why are the coffins of those killed in the bombing of the embassy on the Enterprise, as seen in the sixth scene of Act 1? Wouldn’t they be on Earth?

Same reason that the Enterprise is doing the investigation instead of trained forensic investigators. Hasn't been enough time. The Enterprise will be transporting them to Earth.

Actually, Scott, the resaon I asked this question when I did was because I hadn't yet understood that this was the Earth embassy on Vulcan. I thought it was the Vulcan embassy on Earth. Thanks, though.

T’Les’ medallion says, “Ask me about my bitchy illogical daughter with the breast implants and the trellium habit”
After barricading themselves in the cave in the beginning of Act 3, Arev sees T’Pol’s IDIC medallion, and understands that she is T’Les’ daughter, and the one he’s heard about serving on a human starship. Don’t all IDIC medallions pretty much look the same? What’s so incredibly distinctive about the ones T’Les and T’Pol have?

Ghel: On the coffins with the pre-UFP flags, given that the blue globe and branches were laying the across the short side of the coffin (so that to see the symbol correctly, you had to look at it from the foot of the coffin) either the flags were really big and placed sideways, or the symbol was on the flags sideways.
Luigi Novi: I’m not following here. What do you mean “across the short side”? Which side is that? Which dimension are we talking about? As far as viewing the symbol properly, the olive branch is supposed to be on the left side of the Earth, as seen in the teaser of Home.

ScottN: So Surak was from 1800 years ago? I thought that The Savage Curtain established a date of 8000 years ago. But my memory may be incorrect.
Luigi Novi:

ScottN: Interesting that they seem to be taking some novels and making parts of them canon. Vulcan's Forge. Or was the Forge mentioned in Yesteryear(TAS)?
Luigi Novi: The Forge was mentioned in Act 1 of Change of Heart(DS9), so if a screen writer was basing it on a novel or TAS ep, it was the writer of that episode.

elwood: It think it was dumb to openly confront the
vulcan inpsector that HE is the one who placed the bombs also because they told that the ambassador is a mindmelder which will have consequences for him. Why didn't they try to trap the inspector with their knowledge.
Luigi Novi: I agree, and think what Soval should’ve done was to use the mindmeld revelation only as a starting point, and proceeded from there in gathering evidence from other sources that would be admissible, like tracking Stel’s movements, searching his home and work areas for bomb-making equipment, scanning him for substances that would only be used for bombs, etc.

elwood: Was the leader of the Command on board Enterprise the whole time? What did he do there and why didn't he wonder where Archer was.
Luigi Novi: I never got the sense that V’Las was on board the entire time, as there would’ve been no need to, since they’re already in orbit around Vulcan. I agree, however, with the second part of your observation. They should’ve inserted a line stating he had taken off in order to mourn for his dead friend, since Stel had already said that he wasn’t needed in the investigation.

elwood: When they beam down they get the plan of gaps in the satelite survaillance WHEN the transport can't be detected. But Trip doesn't seem to wait for the exact moment and just energizes. "WHEN" sounds like a gap of some time and not of some place.
Luigi Novi: Good point. We did hear the sound of Trip inserting that module into the transporter console, but that’s it. Perhaps the screenwriter (or actor Gary Graham) meant to say “where” but messed up?

Rona: I didn't particularly like the heavy handed allusions to Christ and Moses when mention was made of Syran. Although, I agree with the point that his message may have been misused by his followers, T'Pol's nonbelief in him was presented as a sort of negative. It's almost similar to criticising atheists (on Earth).
Luigi Novi: T’Pol was not depicted as a nonbeliever, as she flat-out said that Surak brought logic to Vulcans. She merely indicated to Archer that she was skeptical about modern interpretations of his writings that were not supported by an extant originals.

Rona: Or is the whole point that the Syrannites are an outmoded sect using terrorism to attack (what they see) as a too secular state?
Luigi Novi: The episode made clear that the Syrrannites have always been peaceful in their expressions against the government, and that they didn’t plant the bomb. Stel did.

Kazeite When Arev, Archer and T'Pol were barricading the entrance, the area in front of cave looked perfectly normal. But exterior shot showed us that sandstorm has already engulfed the cave.
Luigi Novi: Which shot was this? And what exactly is “engulfed” defined as here? The only shots I saw showed that perhaps the leading edge of the storm reached the entrance, but perhaps the bulk of it was not yet there.

Kazeite That was just about the most effective way to weaken the emotional impact of this characters death.
Luigi Novi: Me, I was quite impacted by the mention of it through dialogue. I thought it was a rather original way of shocking the audience, and it worked for me. The only aspect of it that tripped me up was the fact that Soval was with him, but survived.

Soul: So there were two explosives in that package? The real one and the fake one? But the fake one was real, too? Except it was meant to be found and scanned but then explode soon after? What if it wasn't scanned? All that work would have been for nothing?
Luigi Novi: No one said it was a fake. Reed speculated that that second one’s timer was broken.

dotter31: Just a comment- the Embassy had writing on it saying "United Earth Embassy"(or something to that effect) Is "United Earth" the formal name of the Earth Government?
Luigi Novi: Yes, it did say exactly that (thanks for pointing that out), and I assume that it is the formal name.

dotter31: Is the Administrator of the Vulcan High Command the leader of Vulcan, or just of the space fleet?
Luigi Novi: Home established that the leader of all of Vulcan is called the First Minister, much like Bajor. I have understood/assumed that the High Command, on the other hand, is their equivalent of Starfleet.

Btw, dotter, can I assume that you’re Aaron Dotter?

Influx: I was a little confused about the time-shifting. It starts with "17 years ago" in what may be the shortest teaser ever.
Luigi Novi: Nope. That would be Scorpion part I(VOY), whose teaser was 20 seconds in length. This episode’s was 1 minute, thirteen seconds long.

Influx: I must have missed the Stardate.
Luigi Novi: There was none given in the episode.

Influx: And not a nit, but an observation. The "17 years ago" subtitle doesn't seem quite right -- should it have been something like "17 years previously"? (considering the future time of the present storyline).
Luigi Novi: Not really, IMO. We all understand what it means, I think. It’s 17 years prior to the current “now” era in which the series is mainly set.

KAM: I wondered at the choice of the sect's name. Syranite sounds similar to Syrian. Hmmm...
Luigi Novi: Well, they’re named after their leader, Syrran, which I thought sounded a lot like Sirhan Sirhan, who assassinated RFK.

Captain Dunsel: And a question: Spock pronounced "Surak" as "Sir-RACK" yet Archer and company consistently say "Sir-ROCK". Anyone know why, or could it be a preference of TPTB?
Luigi Novi: Maybe for the same reason English-speakers refer to “Christopher Columbus,” Spanish-speakers as “Colon,” Italians as “Colombo,” etc.

Rona: About those low flying aircraft searching for Archer and T'Pol. Doesn't Vulcan have any orbital satellites which could check the area
Luigi Novi: Satellites have to be directed where to look. If they don’t know Archer and T’Pol are down there, no one will have the satellites do so.

Rona: This ep also looks like a way was found to conveniently get rid of T'Pol's husband ( and possibly put him in prison for the bomb attack?).
Luigi Novi: How so? I didn’t notice anything in the episode indicating that the story was heading in this direction.

Oh, and about Dotter31's question about the High Command: Arev said in the closing scene of Act 3, right before T'Pol was knocked out, that they used to be in charge of merely exploring space, suggesting that that is indeed what they're supposed to do.

It struck me as odd that the Vulcans would have their DNA recorded shortly after brith. Seems a bit Orwellian for privacy-grokking people. (But maybe they just see the logic in that.)

Speaking of which, my biology's a bit rusty, but I was very skeptical the whole "we can tell when this DNA was sampled." (Though it seems to be consistent with Trek DNA carrying an age marker.)

Loved Soval's comments about Humanity. Along similar lines, the whole IDIC thing seemed to be horribly contradicted in past eps.

Another continuity nod: there's a reference to those rejecting Surak and logic involving raptor's wings. Beautiful, and subtle reference to Romulans, which aren't publicly known to be offshoots of Vulcans until TOS.

As for the "Seventeen Years Ago," I don't like it (an actual date would've been nice) but it is consistent with the flashback at the start of Cold Station 12. (And I recall no actual dates in this one.)

Luigi Novi: After barricading themselves in the cave in the beginning of Act 3, Arev sees T’Pol’s IDIC medallion, and understands that she is T’Les’ daughter, and the one he’s heard about serving on a human starship. Don’t all IDIC medallions pretty much look the same? What’s so incredibly distinctive about the ones T’Les and T’Pol have?

Dan Gunther: Considering I don't read Vulcan, I can't say for sure, but perhaps it had something to do with the Vulcan writing on the IDIC. Also, it's possible that Arev knew what T'Les was planning to do, and realized who T'Pol was when he saw the IDIC.

ScottN: So Surak was from 1800 years ago? I thought that The Savage Curtain established a date of 8000 years ago. But my memory may be incorrect.

Luigi Novi:

Dan Gunther: Uhm... I was actually curious as to the answer to this particular query, and all I get is blank? Life is so unfair! Doh the pain! Doh the pain of it all!

Well, the Vulcan mainstream is depicted as somewhat Orwellian in the 2150's, as opposed to the Syrrannites, who seem to be the progenitors of the more trustworthy Vulcans of the TOS-TNG eras.

Rook: Another continuity nod: there's a reference to those rejecting Surak and logic involving raptor's wings.
Luigi Novi: Where was this?

Arev says that at one point - a neat reference to the Romulans.

Rook: Another continuity nod: there's a reference to those rejecting Surak and logic involving raptor's wings. Beautiful, and subtle reference to Romulans, which aren't publicly known to be offshoots of Vulcans until TOS.

Dan Gunther: Yeah, I loved that too. In fact, this entire episode had me grinning from ear to ear like the Star Trek geek I am.

To Luigi: Yes, that's me. I got tired of typing my whole name so I am using one of my screen names.

Thanks for your answers, BTW. :-)

Any time, Aaron. And Dan, sorry I forgot to fill in that answer. As I was going down the page that I had cut and pasted into a Word document, I skipped that one so that I could review that ep and come back to it. I forgot to do so, and now, having looked through my tapes, I think that was one of the eps on the tape that fell behind my radiator and partially melted, so I can't. I'm guessing that Scott is wrong, though.

Luigi Novi said: "Why are Reed and Travis investigating the bomb blast in Act 1?"
Really, you'd figure that by the 2150s there would be a CSI: Vulcan.

I was most impressed with this episode, the numerous (and correct) continuity nods and the sense that all of a sudden, the Vulcans made sense again. To kill a sympathetic character was a gutsy call and demonstrated for me that I had bonded more with the Enterprise characters than I had realized. I had liked the notion of an Enterprise extended family with Admiral Forrest, so he will be missed.

My nits are mostly taken or might be resolved in a following installment, so here are stray observations:

-- It was an excellent idea to use Forrest's death as a catalyst for change within the Vulcan people and (presumably) as a driving force to see his dying wish come true of joint Earth-Vulcan missions -- possibly a precursor to the Federation. Too often, there are meaningless deaths in "Star Trek": Tasha on TNG, Jadzia on DS9 and Joe Carey on Voyager.

-- On the final moment before the fade out, I thought I spied T'Pau with Archer.

-- A final question: What would be the name of this episode in French?

Wasn't Tasha's death supposed to be meaningless though? Didn't Roddenberry want to show that most are?

Rook: Speaking of which, my biology's a bit rusty, but I was very skeptical the whole "we can tell when this DNA was sampled." (Though it seems to be consistent with Trek DNA carrying an age marker.)
Me: Actually, from what I've read this biology (using the telomeres as age markers) was bang-on accurate, quite surprising for TPTB. Though I should point out that it might be easy enough to alter the telomeres to give false results (which is also the idea behind modern ideas for anti-ageing drugs).

Trike: A final question: What would be the name of this episode in French?
Very funny. Though apparently foreign translations of Trek episodes often don't have a literal translation of the episode name, and I hear that sometimes they're dramatically inappropriate for the episode.

Luigi Novi: Maybe for the same reason English-speakers refer to “Christopher Columbus,” Spanish-speakers as “Colon,” Italians as “Colombo,” etc.
Me: Sorry to make a digression, but are you sure about that, Luigi? I've always heard Spanish people call Columbus 'Colombo' too, as in 'Colombia'.

ScottN - T'Pol doesn't need it. As she points out to him, Vulcans are evolved for desert survival.
First, I believe she simply said she was a native of Vulcan when turning down Archer's offer of sunglasses.
Second, it's my understanding that The Forge is the hottest part of Vulcan. I got the feeling that unprepared Vulcans could die in The Forge the same way an unprepared native of Vegas could die in the desert.

Why was Archer offering T'Pol sunglasses after they got there? Shouldn't a complete check of supplies have been done while they were still on the ship?
*sigh* Return of the lunk-headed space tourist.

Luigi - Wow, isn’t it quite a coincidence that the two questions that Arev used to quiz Archer in Act 2 just happened to have both been on Spock’s reeducation test in ST IV?
I suppose that depends on how basic those questions will be deemed to be in the future.

Soul - So there were two explosives in that package? The real one and the fake one? But the fake one was real, too? Except it was meant to be found and scanned but then explode soon after? What if it wasn't scanned? All that work would have been for nothing?
Luigi Novi - No one said it was a fake. Reed speculated that that second one’s timer was broken.
I think that the only reason to put T'Pau's DNA on the second bomb was so it would be found & scanned. By having the bomb go off after scanning risked destroying the scanner that found the planted evidence.

"Soul - So there were two explosives in that package? The real one and the fake one? But the fake one was real, too? Except it was meant to be found and scanned but then explode soon after? What if it wasn't scanned? All that work would have been for nothing?
Luigi Novi - No one said it was a fake. Reed speculated that that second one’s timer was broken.
I think that the only reason to put T'Pau's DNA on the second bomb was so it would be found & scanned. By having the bomb go off after scanning risked destroying the scanner that found the planted evidence"

Thanks KAM.
My point was that having it explode at all would be a highly illogical gamble. Two possibilies. Both bombs had planted DNA in the hopes of it being found after the explosion. Unlikely. Or one had the DNA but was not meant to explode so that it could be found later and examined.
If you want someone to find your planted evidence you also want to make it easy for them.
There were too many things that could go wrong with the scenario as it played out.
Hmmm. Now I want to review the episode again and compare the apparent size of the unexploded bomb with the size of the package that Stel carried to see if 2 such bombs would fit into that package. BTW. They sure do make extremely powerful bombs really small in the future on Vulcan!

Weapons of Mass Destruction don't need to be big.

That's why they are so hard to find.

By Influx on Saturday, November 20, 2004 - 10:45 pm:
What happened?
A title card said "17 years ago". A figure (apparently Arev) walks through a cave and finds a stone artifact, which he picks up and brushes some dust from it. He whispers "Surak". Cue theme song...

GOP: what WAS the significance of the finding of the artifact 17 years ago?

Trike: Really, you'd figure that by the 2150s there would be a CSI: Vulcan.
Luigi Novi: Ooh, that’s a much better funny heading than the one I came up with! I’m changing it on my Nitpick document and crediting it to you, Trike.

Trike: Too often, there are meaningless deaths in "Star Trek": Tasha on TNG, Jadzia on DS9 and Joe Carey on Voyager.
Luigi Novi: I think those first two provided for good stories and character arcs. They may have been meaningless internally, but externally, they made for good episodes. I only found the third meaningless.

Trike: A final question: What would be the name of this episode in French?
Luigi Novi: I thought of that too.

JoshM: Wasn't Tasha's death supposed to be meaningless though?
Luigi Novi: I believe Tasha’s death was due to Crosby wanting out of her contract.

Thande: Sorry to make a digression, but are you sure about that, Luigi? I've always heard Spanish people call Columbus 'Colombo' too, as in 'Colombia'.
Luigi Novi: His current-day descendant has the surname Colon, and I’ve read that that is what Columbus is called in Spanish. I could be wrong, though.

KAM: I got the feeling that unprepared Vulcans could die in The Forge the same way an unprepared native of Vegas could die in the desert.
Luigi Novi: You mean T’Pol might tick off someone and end up shot in the back of the head 40 times and buried out under a cactus?



KAM: By having the bomb go off after scanning risked destroying the scanner that found the planted evidence.
Luigi Novi: Whoa, that’s a good one, Keith. I’m jealous I didn’t find that one.

Soul: My point was that having it explode at all would be a highly illogical gamble.
Luigi Novi: Sorry I wasn’t following at first, Soul.

Btw, are you and Soul Inflicted one and the same?

Soul: Now I want to review the episode again and compare the apparent size of the unexploded bomb with the size of the package that Stel carried to see if 2 such bombs would fit into that package.
Luigi Novi: Definitely. It was the size of a shoe box.

GOP: what WAS the significance of the finding of the artifact 17 years ago?
Luigi Novi: Since it seems that the Syrrannite interpretation of Surak is going to become the dominant Vulcan philosophy that we are familiar with in the TOS-TNG eras, I would imagine that the creators are telling us that this is where its "modern" movement began. But I'm guessing they'll fill us in on more of it in the next two episodes.

Yes Luigi...Like Dotter I just got lazy.

If technology doesn’t work in the Forge, then Archer and T’Pol should’ve had Reed put together some mechanical weapons to defend against sehlats and other predators there...

Just a thought -- might not Trip have been a better one to "build" weapons, since engineers are builders of a sort...

Too often, there are meaningless deaths in "Star Trek": Tasha on TNG, Jadzia on DS9 and Joe Carey on Voyager
Not to mention -- KIRK!?

-- A final question: What would be the name of this episode in French?
"Geordi", of course. Too bad Levar Burton didn't direct this episode.

GOP: what WAS the significance of the finding of the artifact 17 years ago?
Hope I'm not giving anything away with my speculation, but I believe the artifact contained Surak's katra, which Arev then "absorbed", and was eventually transferred to Archer. If you mean the significance of the time span, dunno.

Maybe 17 equals 47 in Sehlat-years. Hardy Har.

So what happened with Armstrong that caused his character to get blown out of the picture?

Did he get double booked like Foxworth with DS9 and Babylon 5 a few years ago?

Or did he just ask for too much money(Hi, Claudia)?

I liked this ep.

And that's all I got to say about that.

About the second bomb.

Reed made a comment that had he created the bomb, it would have been rigged to explode if it was scanned-he was able to scan the bomb at low resolution-enough to get the DNA traces, but at a higher level-that would have given him possibly true information, it was triggered. Maybe that was the plan all along. Let the humans scan the fake information, then blow the bomb up to destroy the real evidence.

Maybe Vaughn Armstrong can get into Klingon make up (again) and lead the war against earth.

I was also sorry to see his character go.

Well, he already has experience playing a Romulan...

JoshM: Wasn't Tasha's death supposed to be meaningless though?
Luigi Novi: I believe Tasha’s death was due to Crosby wanting out of her contract.
Yeah, I know that. But after Crosby decided to leave the show and the decision was to kill the character off, I think that they decided that killing the character off in a meaningless, run of the mill, bad-guy-just-murders-her way would be better than some kind of dramatic and heroic way.

Influx: Too often, there are meaningless deaths in "Star Trek": Tasha on TNG, Jadzia on DS9 and Joe Carey on Voyager
Not to mention -- KIRK!?
But Kirk died saving millions of people, not to mention the crew of the Enterprise-D.

Luigi Novi: Why are Archer and T’Pol wearing moderately heavy-looking jackets in the Forge? And why are the Starfleet desert outfits beige? Shouldn’t they be white, like T’Pol’s, in order to reflect the most sunlight?
Wouldn't the beige outfit help him blend in with the desert more than a white outfit would?

ScottN: So Surak was from 1800 years ago? I thought that The Savage Curtain established a date of 8000 years ago. But my memory may be incorrect.
Luigi Novi:
I think that Luigi was going to point out here that episodes from other series established that Surak's movement occurred around 2,000 years before, so the 1800 year date would be correct.

To be honest, I don't remember where I heard the 8000 year figure.

Stel must've planted it in your head with a mindmeld.

And Josh, I'd think heat survival would be more important than blending in.

The surveillance aircraft generated some pretty persistent contrails. Can't figure out how, in an atmosphere as dry as Vulcan's.

Still, it's looking like a much better year. Please: no more LONG story arcs.

The three episode stories are perfect. Enough time to deal with a story indepth, but it doesn't drag on for too long.

Great Show!!!

Maybe the second bomb was intended to be a boobytrap to blow up the investigators. My cousin at FDNY says that arsonists have been known to boobytrap buildings to hurt the firefighters.

I think Archer's outifit was reminiscent of the Desert Strom camoflague.

Soval said Forrest protected him from the blast.

I liked the basketball game at the beginning.

I hope we get to see T'Les again.

Soval said that Forrest saved his life. Not that he protected him from the blast.

Another revelation: The red point atop the triangle in the IDIC represents Mount Seleya, where the journey of Surak's katra began.

KAM: I got the feeling that unprepared Vulcans could die in The Forge the same way an unprepared native of Vegas could die in the desert.
Luigi Novi: You mean T’Pol might tick off someone and end up shot in the back of the head 40 times and buried out under a cactus?

Sounds like natural causes ta me.

I thought it was suprising that the death of the Admiral was "just" mentioned by Archer.

Why he died and the Ambassador lived while they were both at about the same distance to the bomb
remains unclear but I guess its like someone said before that some shrapnel killed him while he saved the Ambassador from exactly that when pushing im to the side and covering him with his body.

When I saw the CGI of the building with about a quarter of it blown away I was suprised that anybody survived in there.

Another thing to keep in mind. The guy from the conter who was melded with later also survived the explosion while he was even closer to the explosion than the two others, still he was severly injured.


I didn't think about the second bomb as you did.
That the second was ment to be a dud to be found
with the fake evidence on it.

If it was ment to be found then why did it go off?
Maybe the evidence was meant to be found even after it was blown off?

As far as surviving, it's possible that they were at the outer perimeter of the blast. As for Corporal Askuith, it's possible that the counter may have shielded him in part. Perahps he tried to duck under it, but was only partially successful in using it to shield himself.

Luigi Novi: Soval said that Forrest saved his life. Not that he protected him from the blast.
I assumed that Forrest saved Soval's life by partially protecting him from the blast. Unless, of course, you were just pointing out the inaccuracy of John D's quote of Forrest.

Mostly the latter, but as I said earlier, I would've preferred if they made the former more explicit.

I thought the CGI shots of the embassy on Vulcan weren't very good. They looked too "CGI". The Vulcan city also didn't have a distinctively Vulcan look to it either.

Ok, some of these may have already been posted, but I got to see this on it's run (was in the US and desperatly trying to fight off jet lag ),

Guess the mind meld scrambled Archers brains a little, certainly enough for him to forget about Katra's, inner eyelids and everything else that might have been useful to note down in his mission report.

Amok time had Vulcan having a thin atmosphere, so much that Kirk needed a hypo to help his respiration. While that might have been at a severe altitude and the Forge a lot lower, Archer has no trouble breathing.

T'Pau? Nice nod for the classic trekkies, but they'll also have guessed what was going on within 5 seconds of mentioning her name. Should have had her as a potential suspect, or as one of the group later on.

And whilst we might trust the Vulcans, but surely it's a good idea to have sensors scanning the entrance ways just in case. You never know when someone might try and sneak something in.

Sorry for double post, but just remembered one.

If the forge has a dampening field which renders all scanning inoperative, why are the Vulcans still flying security missions over it at night , when the only way they can pick someone up is visually?

When in ST3, when Kirk meets with that admiral to try and get permission to go to Genesis, I get the impression that the Federation is fully aware of Vulcan mysticism but most humans treat it as mumbo-jumbo.

Chris Marks: Guess the mind meld scrambled Archers brains a little, certainly enough for him to forget about Katra's, inner eyelids and everything else that might have been useful to note down in his mission report.
Luigi Novi: Just because these things were known to Archer does not mean that Kirk should’ve been an expert on Vulcan anatomy and culture, if that is what you’re alluding to.

Chris Marks: Amok time had Vulcan having a thin atmosphere, so much that Kirk needed a hypo to help his respiration. While that might have been at a severe altitude and the Forge a lot lower, Archer has no trouble breathing.
Luigi Novi: I assume that visitors to Vulcan take injections off camera.

Chris Marks: If the forge has a dampening field which renders all scanning inoperative, why are the Vulcans still flying security missions over it at night , when the only way they can pick someone up is visually?
Luigi Novi: You just answered your own question. They fly over it at night because they can pick their torch lights, which JoshM pointed out above.

Chris Marks: Guess the mind meld scrambled Archers brains a little, certainly enough for him to forget about Katra's, inner eyelids and everything else that might have been useful to note down in his mission report.
Luigi Novi: Just because these things were known to Archer does not mean that Kirk should’ve been an expert on Vulcan anatomy and culture, if that is what you’re alluding to.

Well, McCoy should have at least looked up Vulcan physiology when Spock was blinded, if only to see what treatments might or might not work. And a good commanding officer (ok, so that might let Kirk off ) should know as much as possible about all the people under his command, even if they are his closest friends.

Chris Marks: If the forge has a dampening field which renders all scanning inoperative, why are the Vulcans still flying security missions over it at night , when the only way they can pick someone up is visually?
Luigi Novi: You just answered your own question. They fly over it at night because they can pick their torch lights, which JoshM pointed out above.

Sorry, can you point me to the exact post? Can't see it. And seeing a torch from a minimum of several hundred feet (if not a few thousand to get above the dampening field) isn't exactly easy, especially when it's being held by someone who's trying not to be seen.

Chris Marks: Sorry, can you point me to the exact post? Can't see it. And seeing a torch from a minimum of several hundred feet (if not a few thousand to get above the dampening field) isn't exactly easy, especially when it's being held by someone who's trying not to be seen.
It's actually on the next episode's board.

"Well, McCoy should have at least looked up Vulcan physiology when Spock was blinded, if only to see what treatments might or might not work. And a good commanding officer (ok, so that might let Kirk off ) should know as much as possible about all the people under his command, even if they are his closest friends."

That was a huge nit in TOS anyway : Vulcan being a member of the Federation and yet McCoy not being sure if the biobed's readings on Spock were "good or not".

Rene: McCoy not knowing whether Spock's readings are "good or not" can be chalked up to two not-necessarily-nit possibilities: A), Spock is half Human and half Vulcan, therefore they don't have as reliable a baseline. Or B) McCoy isn't skilled with non-Humans. (We also see this in The Undiscovered Country, when he proclaims that he doesn't know Klingon anatomy. I'm sure that in the century or so preceding, Starfleet and the Federation have had oppourtunities to study injured, dead, or captured Klingons.)

It could also be chalked up to McCoy's oft-seen distrust of machinery and technology.

What does a baseline have to do with it? Spock's medical scans should be on file, which would indicate if he has the eyelid. What does that have to do with "being skilled with non-humans"? If he's a doctor in an organization composed of many different species, then he should be familiar with all of them.

Do you expect a vetranarian to be skilled with every single possible pet species? Wasn't there a (Human, I think) doctor on Kirk's Enterprise who was an expert in Vulcans? With a overwhelmingly Human crew, it makes sense to have a specialist in Humans.

That being said. It is a pretty big nit, since the ship's medical database should be ginormous. Maybe McCoy was simply not very good with non-Humans? (Read: Bones was incompetent.)

I readily concede that this is murky and that my own position is hard to defend very vigorously. It's just an issue I don't think has gotten sufficient scrutiny.

That was Dr. M'Benga on TOS. He had interned in a Vulcan ward IIRC.

My apologies for my late entry into this discussion. We had recorded this on the DVR and just now had the time to watch it.

Luigi - Unless I didn't see if, I think you forgot about the Vulcan inner eye lid continuity nod.

The telomere comments concerning age was accurate. I was impressed by that.

I will Miss admiral Forrest, and I am liking Soval much more.

Question - was the Vulcan mind meld widely know about? I seem to remember in Daggar of the Mind that it wasn't.

As you know from my posts, I have been against this show from the beginning, due to Berman's and Braga's complete disregard to continuity. I must say however, that both my wife and I enjoyed this trilogy, and I would say that these are best episodes of this series. Had TPTB started this series with the respect to continuity that was shown in this trilogy, I think this series would have been better received. Unfortunately, I don't believe that B&B are capable of learning what the fans want, as evidenced by the rumors of a Starfleet Academy movie.

Harvey Kitzman: As you know from my posts, I have been against this show from the beginning, due to Berman's and Braga's complete disregard to continuity. I must say however, that both my wife and I enjoyed this trilogy, and I would say that these are best episodes of this series. Had TPTB started this series with the respect to continuity that was shown in this trilogy, I think this series would have been better received.

That's probably because they're letting Manny Coto run the show now.

Harvey Kitzman: Question - was the Vulcan mind meld widely know about? I seem to remember in Daggar of the Mind that it wasn't.
Luigi Novi: Spock said to Bones: "It is a hidden, personal thing to the Vulcan people. Part of our private lives." From this, it can be speculated that while they do not discuss it a lot, it may be known to others. Some humans don't like to talk about things like sex or drugs or family conflict, but that's different from saying that those things are not widely known to exist. Bones may not have know about the meld, but that doens't mean others might not have.

Stel: The embassy is on Earth soil.
Archer: There's no need to use unnecessary synonyms.
So now TPTB know the official name of the Earth government is supposed to be United Earth. That's good. Too bad Forrest isn't around to appreciate it.

Correct blood colour of the week
Kudos to the creators for remembering to make Soval's wound green. (A non-Trekker co-watcher asked me if he had sneezed. )

I too thought Archer's apparel was strange. It wasn't very camouflaged, nor did it aid in adapting to the climate, so basically it offered nothing; the dark colored ball cap was wise too. Also, he put his rank insignia on it, no wonder Arev knew he was lying. Are knives obsolete in SF during this time? A Swiss Army knife would probably come in handy in the Forge.

I've seen this episode, but I'm not exactly following how or why sovel became so earth friendly.

What happened that caused him to tell archer at any cost... I can't imagine that he'd say that just over the death of Forrest.

Another thing, maybe this was discussed somewhere else, but since this is a big episode regarding vulcan, where does the oxygen come from? On a sand rock planet, I can't imagine there be enough plantlife to produce oxygen. Again, this may be answered elsewhere.

Regarding the clothing of Archer, you'll recall that the same outfit is used for away missions where the crew will be active. Moving about a lot... and seeing how this isn't the age of the replicator, I'd imagine they'd be stuck with teh color that they have.

Regarding the desert, does Archer bring enough water to sustain himself during the trek?

What's the deal with so much electricity? I'm not well knowledgable about sandstorms, but is that enough to produce the electric discharges? Was it something in the rocks?

I'm not a medical doctor, so I dont' know, but just what happens to a brain dead person in coma? Is the mind still there that it could be probed?

Does Sovel love T'pol's mother? Sovels been rather protective of T'pol throughout the series, kind of makes you wonder if he feels like a step father.

I've noticed that several nitpickers have become lazy...

KAM
Soul
Dotter31

Yet you fault TPTB for trying to cheat a little?

Bones actually refers to his patient, not a nickname for the doctor
In response to this post: That being said. It is a pretty big nit, since the ship's medical database should be ginormous. Maybe McCoy was simply not very good with non-Humans? (Read: Bones was incompetent.) -4ge

how dare u cal us lazy

But seriously I don't get paid to nitpick, B&B did get paid to produce a show allegedly set in the Star Trek universe.

BTW where in this thread did I accuse them of being lazy?

it was a joke.

earlier, Luigi asked other people if they were other people and they replied that they got lazy and were tired of typing out a longer name. Seeing how I've seen you spell out what KAM stands for on occasion, I made a leap of B&B logic and concluded that you too were lazy.

and regarding the paying to produce star trek, maybe if they weren't paid, we'd get better results.

I have actually stated on some board around here that I mostly use KAM because of laziness so it wasn't that big of a leap of logic.

Originally I used my full name for serious posts & my initials for jokes, after a while I switched to using my full name on first posts & my initials afterwards. (Part laziness, part the fact that even while being serious I make jokes & part the realization that "Hey! Those guys know who I am! Why be so formal?")

BTW have seen ScottN's last name? No wonder he doesn't want to type that out.

I bet John A. Lang would use his initials but it would sound too much like a cardassian rank.

JAL DUKAT?

or maybe Kazon... It just sounds like a rank for one of those species...

If anyone could be considered not lazy though, it'd have to be Blue Berry... who 80% of the time had a name as wide as the monitor...

Oh, and for the record, I'm lazy too at times. I know, its shocking isn't it...

JAL CULLUH!