You had me at “You’re an uncaring, emotionless robot”
Great Exchange:
Soval: “I lived on Earth for more than thirty years, Commander. In that time I developed an affinity for that world, and its people.”
Trip: “You did a pretty good job of hiding it.”
Soval: “Thank you.”
---Critique:
---Nice continuation of the Forge storyline, with some deeper views into Vulcan political corruption, the beginnings of the Vulcan reformation that will lead to the Vulcans of later eras, and Vulcan’s relations with Earth, culminating in a long-anticipated showdown between the two powers that was hinted at as far back as the series pilot. Well-done!
---I liked that establishing shot of that Vulcan city in the opening scene of the teaser, as it is the first time we’ve gotten a good look at a Vulcan city that was not mostly desert.
---Notes:
---Soval tells Trip in the Sitatuion Room in the third scene of Act 2 has lived on Earth for more than thirty years. We see Vulcan shuttles for the first time on the series in Act 3.
---The Admiral Gardner mentioned in Acts 2 and 3 may be the Captain Gardner mentioned in the teaser of Shadows of P’Jem and later in First Flight, who has been promoted, perhaps following Admiral Forrest’s death.
---Terms:
loyalty oath Oath taken by Soval as a member of the High Command, and which V’Las tells him is still in effect after he is removed from the Command in the teaser.
Kuvak V’Las’ subordinate, who comes into conflict with V’Las over his zero tolerance tactics towards the Syrrannites during the episode. (Name from startrek.com only.)
Katric Arks Polycrystalline vessels allegedly used by Vulcans to preserve katras, which were discovered centuries ago at the P’Jem monastery, as T’Pol tells Arhcer in the fourth scene of Act 2. She tells him that Vulcans attempted to meld with them, but found no evidence of katras.
Admiral Gardner Starfleet authority that V’Las has contacted regarding the Enterprise’s presence in orbit around Vulcan, as he tells Trip in Act 3, which may be the promoted Captain Gardner mentioned in Shadows of P’Jem and First Flight.
Kir’Shara An artifact that Surak tells Archer to find during T’Pau’s mind meld with Archer in Act 3, and which T’Pau says Syrran led his followers to find in the Forge caves.
T’Klass A male student of Surak, and one of the first Kohlinar masters, whose mummified remains Archer recognizes through the memories in Surak’s katra when searching through the caves with T’Pol and T’Pau for the Kir’Shara in Act 4.
Surak: “Uh, he pretty much looked like that when he was alive.” (“He had really bad hygiene.”)
Archer recognizes the mummified remains of T’Klass in the caves in Act 4, even though there’s no inscription, supposedly because he has Surak’s memories. But how would even Surak recognize him? The guy’s mummified!
When the High Command started bombing the sactuary, you could see bits of rock 'flicker out' to reveal buildings and stuff. Now that I think about it, Archer and T'Pol walked through a holo-rock to get into the sanctuary in the last episode.
Are those holograms geo-magnetic? I thought The Forge inhibited all technology?
Are those holograms geo-magnetic? I thought The Forge inhibited all technology?
A wizard did it.
SMART VULCAN OF THE WEEK:
>> I have to say, V'Las's proprosed pretense for attacking the Andorians was pretty clever. He said that the Andorians were preparing a weapon based on Xindi technology in order to destroy Vulcan. In the last major Andorian episode "Proving Ground," they were trying to steal the Xindi prototype in order to do just that.
HYPOCRITICAL VULCAN OF THE WEEK:
>> I'm a little surprised that T'Pol was so closed-minded to her mother's problems with the High Command given that T'Pol has had so many problems with them.
STAR WARS REMINDER OF THE WEEK:
>> Did the establishing shot of the Vulcan city in the teaser remind anyone else of Coruscant from the Star Wars movies? (It was still a very cool shot, though.)
SOVAL MUSINGS OF THE WEEK:
>> I wonder what will happen to Soval in the next episode? He is certainly growing on me. If Jolene Blalock ever decides to quit, I wouldn't mind if Soval came aboard as a Vulcan representative. I strongly suspect that his position will be restored by the next episode by the "reformed" Vulcan government.
POLITICAL RUMINATIONS OF THE WEEK:
>> So Vulcan is not a democracy at this point. Soval mentions that V'Las earned his position because of merit, not because he was chosen by the people. This is not a nit, just something that I found interesting.
OVERALL OPINION OF THE WEEK:
I very much liked the dual structure of this episode between what was happening with the High Command and Enterprise and what was happening in the Forge with Archer. The two stories were very strong and came together nicely at the end. I especially liked Archer's scenes with Surak. One gets the impression that Archer is going to come out of this with a deeper understanding of the Vulcans, and T'Pol is certainly going to be affected by all of this as well. Keep up the good work people.
TUE
Summerfield, the holographic walls were established in the final scene of the previous ep. Good call, though, since no one else, IIRC, noticed it.
Somehow, I feel that great history (and continuity!!) will be made with this arc...
In a word: wow. Is it just me, or is Enterprise becoming very good television?
Okay, so we've got "terrorists" hiding out in caves, a government carpet-bombing the area, and interested in attacking a foreign government that had nothing to do with an attack on the basis of the development of a weapon of mass destruction? Hmmmm....
May I say, I really admired Jolene Blalock's acting in this episode. I loved her expressions when her mother was dying. She looked like she was trying soooo hard to reign in her emotions, but simply was unable to.
A friend of mine caught the holographic-wall nit too, I was shocked because I'm the nitpicker of the group, and I missed it! Guess I was too engrossed in the story.
The shuttle outfitted with larger wings and chemical engines was really cool too.
Anyway, I can't think of any nits, and for the first time in awhile I'm frustrated that I can't see the final part for a week. A whole week!!!
The whole bit about the Katric Arks had me confused. It seems as if Vulcans can leave their Katra in an inanimate object, an ark. I thought it was established earlier that they could only transfer their Katra to a living being.
I thought T'Pol's struggle to understand the whole rather mystical Katra subject in logical terms was excellent. In a way, it reminded me of Spock (though he struggled with his human side). I agree with Dan, I thought Jolene's acting was superb in this ep. Her reaction to her mother's death was moving.
Thanks, Undesirable Element for the Star Wars reminder. The Vulcan Towers looked as if they were lifted right out of SW:The Phantom Menace.
The fanatical nature of V'Las was a bit disturbing. His fanatacism seemed to be very tinged with anger. Is obsession an emotional state? How could the other counsil members not raise more of an objection to his actions? I would have thought a massacre would be unthinkable for most of the High Command members.
Um, why didn't T'Les leave her katra with T'Pol? It seems that those were ideal circumstances.
Influx, I too wondered the same thing. As I watched that scene I was waiting for it. Perhaps T'Les was not yet "trained" in how to do it. Apparently there is much more to the process than just grabbing someone's head and saying "remember".
Yes, when I saw the establishing shot of the Vulcan city I must admit my first thought was: "Now the scene shifts to Chancellor Palpatine's office..."
And after making a big deal about whether or not katras exist, why didn't T'Les pass hers to T'Pol? That would have convinced her beyond all doubt. But upon reflection, perhaps T'Les did not practice melding, despite being a Syrannite?
And finally, if the Kir'Shara was so important and Syran had Surak's katra for the past 17 years, why did Surak wait until Archer came along to reveal its location?
Thoughts?
Please note that my questions in no way detract from my enjoyment and involvement in this episode...
If this is the T'Pau from Amok Time, where the devil is her accent? (Sorry, channeled McCoy for a second there...) And just about every time I hear "T'Pau", I want to say "Geshundheit" in my best MST3K manner. I also kept hearing "Floss" instead of "V'Las".
Wouldn't if have been cool if they had the original Surak reprise his role? Barry Atwater -- although I still always think of him as "Janos Skorzeny". Ah, but unfortunately he died in 1978.
Rona: The fanatical nature of V'Las was a bit disturbing. His fanatacism seemed to be very tinged with anger. Is obsession an emotional state? How could the other counsil members not raise more of an objection to his actions? I would have thought a massacre would be unthinkable for most of the High Command members.
Luigi Novi: The Vulcans have long been depicted on this series as being less restrained emotionally than their TOS-TNG era descendants. As for objections to V'Las' fanaticism, it seemed that Kuvak was butting heads with him, and I'd wager that he will have a hand in bringing him down in the next episode.
While we wait for the writers of this story arc to reveal the answers to the questions we have, let us not lose track of something we know. That Romulans can look like Vulcans if they want to. A lot of the cause for the emotions and behavior we see among these Vulcans can be explained by Romulan agents. Romulans would want to prevent an Earth-Vulcan alliance via terrorism. Romulans would want to have a dictatorial mass-murdering Vulcan government. Romulans would want to trigger a Vulcan-Andorian war. And Romulan agents would be less able to control their emotions and so betray themselves.
Oh, and Romulans would want to suppress mind-melding, since that might lead to their agents being caught.
Luigi Novi: We see Vulcan shuttles for the first time on the series in Act 3.
Me: Aside from the famous Vulcan shuttle from ST: TMP, we already saw a contemporary Vulcan shuttle in ENT: "Fallen Hero".
I meant to include the qualifier "2150's," and should've said "new" shuttle. Thanks.
Not bad, especially for a middle chapter. I can't wait for part 3. I always love seeing the Andorians. And SPOILER WARNING FOR LN's SAKE: The return of Jeffrey Combs. 22nd century Vulcans are really emotional. Especially that V'Las.
I almost thought that they might kill off T'Pol when they went into the caves. In a cave-in or something. That would have been very interesting.
Okay, so when the Shuttlepod comes under attack, either Reed or Travis says that the shuttle's plasma cannons are still online. I assume that the plasma cannons are the weapons we see in Shadows of P'Jem. Yet when the pod returns fire, it fires phase beams.
Not long after they recover the artifact, Archer, T'Pol, and T'Pau appear to emerge on the surface of the Forge. Archer keeps the torch that they had. I know that they need to see in the dark, but still, wouldn't this help the bombarding ships spot them?
Luigi Novi: Archer recognizes the mummified remains of T’Klass in the caves in Act 4, even though there’s no inscription, supposedly because he has Surak’s memories. But how would even Surak recognize him? The guy’s mummified!
Maybe Surak knows where T'Klass's body was put.
TUE: So Vulcan is not a democracy at this point. Soval mentions that V'Las earned his position because of merit, not because he was chosen by the people. This is not a nit, just something that I found interesting
I'm not sure how specific Soval was, but couldn't he have met that the people picked him due to his merit?
Much like the science advisor on this show
In the opening scene of Act 2, Soval explains to Trip how they will trigger a malfunction in one of the Vulcan satellites to disrupt the net, which he tells Trip will likely not raise suspicion because errors occur frequently near the Forge. But T’Pol told Archer in Act 2 of the previous episode that the dampening field only extends to a few hundred meters above the Forge, which is how the patrol ships are able to fly over it. So just how low do these satellites orbit over the planet? Do they really fly less than a few hundred meters above the ground? If the geomagnetic instability affects them at all, wouldn’t it make them useless?
TUE: So Vulcan is not a democracy at this point. Soval mentions that V'Las earned his position because of merit, not because he was chosen by the people.
Luigi Novi: No, that’s not what he said at all. He said that their society rewards merit, but didn’t say anything at all about whether the people choose their leaders, either directly, or indirectly. In what way is a meritocracy inconsistent with a democracy. Ideally, in a democracy, people choose their leaders based on merit. Choice and merit are not mutually exclusive.
JoshM: Okay, so when the Shuttlepod comes under attack, either Reed or Travis says that the shuttle's plasma cannons are still online. I assume that the plasma cannons are the weapons we see in Shadows of P'Jem. Yet when the pod returns fire, it fires phase beams.
Luigi Novi: Yes, the shuttlepod in Shadows of P’Jem did use plasma cannons, as Archer mentioned in that episode, and the Enterprise used what was presumably plasma cannons in the gas giant in Broken Bow, since that was before they installed their phase cannons. It’s possible that the shuttlepod was upgraded with phase cannons, or that the weapons in this ep were plasma cannons. The two energy discharges are identical in color, and only differed in that the plasma discharges came in the form of pulses rather than continuous beams, and since we know phaser beams can be pulsed (as on the Defiant) or continuous, it is possible that plasma cannons can as well.
JoshM: Not long after they recover the artifact, Archer, T'Pol, and T'Pau appear to emerge on the surface of the Forge. Archer keeps the torch that they had. I know that they need to see in the dark, but still, wouldn't this help the bombarding ships spot them?
Luigi Novi: Possibly, but what should they do instead?
JoshM: Maybe Surak knows where T'Klass's body was put.
Luigi Novi: Yeah, but there’s no way he would know that no one else was buried there too, or that the bodies have been moved around since his death, which he would have to acknowledge, given that he’s the logical Vulcan of all logical Vulcans.
JoshM: I'm not sure how specific Soval was, but couldn't he have met that the people picked him due to his merit?
Luigi Novi: What meeting someone have to do with whether it’s a democracy (Or were not touching upon that point)?
I think Josh meant to write "meant" instead of "met".
Rene speaks the truth
I like the momentum that is in the Vulcan trilogy, and I'm eager to see how it is resolved. It can be difficult to rate middle chapters without knowing whether the final one will live up to the buildup it has been given.
Nits and notes:
-- In "Star Trek III," there was an intermediary who performed the transference of the katra. Here, T'Pau attempted to transfer it herself. Plus, we're left with puzzling (perhaps mystic) suggestion that a katra can determine which head it wants to stay in.
-- If the Vulcan government wanted to infiltrate the Syrannites, it should have sent an undercover barber. The Syrannites must have been skipped Surak's teachings about good grooming.
-- Syran told Archer and T'Pol in the first part that Vulcans did not lie, but now we know he lied about his identity.
-- Considering the paranoid streak the Vulcan government has shown, why didn't it track Soval's movements? V'las already knew Soval had helped humans gain knowledge he wanted kept secret. Instead, Soval is allowed to freely return to Enterprise.
Just for fun, here are pictures of T'Pau and Surak from their appearances on the original series.
So why does Archer have to carry both the torch & the Kir'Shara? T'Pol & T'Pua are carrying nothing & he has to carry both items??? Heck, even when Archer dropped the torch T'Pau picked it up and gave it back to Archer.
This T'Pau seems nothing like the T'Pau she supposedly will become.
Funny how the differences between the Enterprise Vulcan & the Classic Vulcans all boils down to Red vs. Blue. (Especially ironic since the closing theme kept reminding me of John Ashcroft's "Let the Eagle Soar".)
Luigi - Summerfield, the holographic walls were established in the final scene of the previous ep. Good call, though, since no one else, IIRC, noticed it.
I noticed it, but I thought an explanation for it would have come in this episode since there was no time last episode.
Rona - The whole bit about the Katric Arks had me confused. It seems as if Vulcans can leave their Katra in an inanimate object, an ark. I thought it was established earlier that they could only transfer their Katra to a living being.
Actually I believe Sarak in STIII mentions that Spock's Katra be taken to Mount Selaya to be put in some kind of container.
I believe you are confusing that with dying Vulcans transferring their katra to a living person to carry it there & the re-fusion ceremony that transfered Spock's katra back into his regenerated body.
In Return To Tomorrow we meet the 'spirits' of three ancient entities that Spock thinks may have influenced the develpoment of Vulcans. They are able to transfer their selves to containers & to people. I wonder if this is the predecessor of Vulcans leaving their katras behind?
Trike - In "Star Trek III," there was an intermediary who performed the transference of the katra. Here, T'Pau attempted to transfer it herself.
McCoy probably didn't know how to transfer it & Spock's body was in no condition to attempt to take it, so an intermediary was probably necesary.
"This T'Pau seems nothing like the T'Pau she supposedly will become."
You mean the one who who called Kirk and McCoy "offworlders" and who conviniently forgets to tell Kirk that the fight is to the death until after he accepts or threats to have McCoy's head cut off after he starts objecting?
Trike: Syran told Archer and T'Pol in the first part that Vulcans did not lie, but now we know he lied about his identity.
Luigi Novi: Ooh, good one, Trike! Is it possible he used a middle name or nickname to avoid lying?
Trike: Considering the paranoid streak the Vulcan government has shown, why didn't it track Soval's movements? V'las already knew Soval had helped humans gain knowledge he wanted kept secret. Instead, Soval is allowed to freely return to Enterprise.
Luigi Novi: Perhaps because they had no basis on which to detain him.
KAM: This T'Pau seems nothing like the T'Pau she supposedly will become.
Luigi Novi: If you mean their different accents, I noticed this too, but I figure in a century’s time, she can move to a location where she picks up one different from the one she had in the 2150’s.
That Vulcan City looked alot like Star Wars.
Syran didn't lie about his idendity,
he just used a cover name by which he was also known, at least by hie fellows.
He never said "I am not Syran" what would have been a lie.
Best quote:
Hoshi: That one missed us by 20 meters!
[...]
Trip: How many warning shots do vulcans usually fire?
Soval: NONE!
JoshM: Okay, so when the Shuttlepod comes under attack, either Reed or Travis says that the shuttle's plasma cannons are still online. I assume that the plasma cannons are the weapons we see in Shadows of P'Jem. Yet when the pod returns fire, it fires phase beams.
Luigi Novi: Yes, the shuttlepod in Shadows of P’Jem did use plasma cannons, as Archer mentioned in that episode, and the Enterprise used what was presumably plasma cannons in the gas giant in Broken Bow, since that was before they installed their phase cannons. It’s possible that the shuttlepod was upgraded with phase cannons, or that the weapons in this ep were plasma cannons. The two energy discharges are identical in color, and only differed in that the plasma discharges came in the form of pulses rather than continuous beams, and since we know phaser beams can be pulsed (as on the Defiant) or continuous, it is possible that plasma cannons can as well.
They're identical in color? Huh, I thought that plasma cannons seemed to have a pinker tint than the phase cannons. IMO, if they were meant to be plasma beams, the visual and sound effects should've been altered since they looked and sounded like phase cannons.
JoshM: Not long after they recover the artifact, Archer, T'Pol, and T'Pau appear to emerge on the surface of the Forge. Archer keeps the torch that they had. I know that they need to see in the dark, but still, wouldn't this help the bombarding ships spot them?
Luigi Novi: Possibly, but what should they do instead?
I probably would have ditched the torch. It didn't look that dark up there.
KAM: So why does Archer have to carry both the torch & the Kir'Shara? T'Pol & T'Pua are carrying nothing & he has to carry both items??? Heck, even when Archer dropped the torch T'Pau picked it up and gave it back to Archer.
He seemed rather protective of the Kir'Shara. I can understand why he wouldn't want to give it up. As for the torch, I guess he just wanted to lead. I don't really see a problem with it.
KAM: This T'Pau seems nothing like the T'Pau she supposedly will become.
It's over 100 years before we've seen her. People change. And, like Rene pointed out, her distrust of humans seems consistent with her view that Vulcan ceremonies aren't for aliens in Amok Time.
elwood: Syran didn't lie about his idendity,
he just used a cover name by which he was also known, at least by hie fellows.
He never said "I am not Syran" what would have been a lie.
Luigi Novi: When Archer and T’Pol first mentioned Arev to T’Pau, T’Paul responded that his “true” name was Syrran, suggesting that “Arev” was not simply another name, but a false one.
JoshM: I thought that plasma cannons seemed to have a pinker tint than the phase cannons. IMO, if they were meant to be plasma beams, the visual and sound effects should've been altered since they looked and sounded like phase cannons.
Luigi Novi: Well, they weren't pink in Broken Bow, nor in most other depictions of plasma we've seen in Trek. I'm not sure how diverse the visual signature can be beyond that. As for the sounds, well, to each his own.
Plasma was pink in Balance of Terror...but it was often green in TNG and VOY.
Wow! Two great episodes in a row! B***** and B**** must be on vacation.
It seemed to me that T'Les put her hand to T'Pol's face like Syran did for Archer last week but T'Pol pushed it away.
V'Las aide said Vulcan and Earth have been allies for 100 years. First, it's only been 91 years since First Contact. Vulcans usually give precise figures and if you round off it would be more accurate to say 90. Plus, how many more years was it before Earth had a unified government?
I liked the scenes with Archer and Surak.
Great Line:
Soval: Deceit is not a stranger to this room.
Next Week:
Vulcan/Andorian War
I wonder if we'll get to see Lt. Tallis again
Hey a guy can always hope!
V'Las must definately be taken out of power for the Vulcan we all know and love (from the 23rd century) to emerge. He must surely be held accountable for the atrocity of committing a massacre of what turned out to be a non violent sect. Couldn't T'Pol's mother meld with T'Pol and transfer her Katra to her? (Spock's father Sarek was distraught when he thought Spock's Katra may have been lost. I would expect T'Pol to at least hold on to the possibility of her mother having a Katra, and thus, act accordingly). Perhaps, the next ep will explain. Also, wouldn't T'Pol want to provide a burial for her mother's body? It would be a most respectful thing to do.
"In what way is a meritocracy inconsistent with a democracy." -- Luigi Novi
Are you not aware of who is going to be our President for the next four years?
Seriously, I hadn't really thought of it like that. I assumed that rewarding merit meant that the High Command gave him the power. I suppose he could have been elected. In fact, given that he said that their "society" rewards merit rather than their "government," I guess that would be the case.
Double dumb-a$$ on me.
TUE
Just a thought- Does the Administrator not have to consult any sort of civilian authority before he fires on an allied ship? Even if the government agrees with him(I suspect some people in the government must, given the evidence planted on the bomb) does he have the authority to simply fire on ships because he wants to?
What is the point of the other people working with the administrator? Is this a council, or are they just his advisors? If it's a council, they appear to not have much of a say in what goes on. If they are his advisors, I should think they would find it illogical to stay if they are not listened to.
Hmmm. Do Vulcans tan? Here we are shown a group of Vulcans in what is supposed to be the hottest desert on the planet. And not one of them looks at all tan.
Somehow, I would have liked to see some (any) black vulcans as well. More and more it seems that Tuvok is some sort of oddity.
POSSIBLE SPOILER WARNING
John D: I wonder if we'll get to see Lt. Tallis again
I believe we do.
NGen: I would expect T'Pol to at least hold on to the possibility of her mother having a Katra, and thus, act accordingly
T'Pol didn't even believe that the katra exists.
dotter31: If they are his advisors, I should think they would find it illogical to stay if they are not listened to.
We've only seen one situation so far. Maybe he usually does follow their advice.
John D: Vulcans usually give precise figures…
Luigi Novi: In the prior series, yes, but not the pre-Syrrannite ones on this one.
dotter31: Does the Administrator not have to consult any sort of civilian authority before he fires on an allied ship? Even if the government agrees with him (I suspect some people in the government must, given the evidence planted on the bomb) does he have the authority to simply fire on ships because he wants to?
Luigi Novi: Dukat told Sisko (in Defiant(DS9), IIRC) that in theory, Central Command reports to the Detapa Council (or that the Obsidian Order reports to Central Command; I’m not sure which). But obviously, that didn’t occur. So too may that be the case here.
Perhaps nothing was an exagerration. They both have the same name. They are both female. They are both Vulcan. They both have bad attitudes. So there are 4 similarities.
I had forgotten about the accent, until someone mentioned it here. Also I think the face of the actress here is different from the original actress, but that happens in casting. Heck, I didn't complain about Surak looking different here than in The Savage Curtain.
However my problem is that the T'Pau from Amok Time seemed like she hadn't much experience with Humans and only changed her mind because of how Kirk & McCoy acted in the ceremony.
Here we have a T'Pau who is dealing with a Human who has the katra of Surak in his head & whom Surak chose to remain in rather than going into her head. Also he has recovered the Kir'Shara an important artifact that, according to the previews, will play a big part in the change of Red Vulcan to Blue Vulcan. End of next episode guessing
And yet, somehow, despite all this, she will still be an arrogant, not friendly to human, person 100 or so years on.
I'd much rather assume that this is a different T'Pau from the one who appears in Amok Time. After all, surely there must be more than one person named Johnathan on Earth, so there should be more than one person named T'Pau on Vulcan.
Luigi, I think you had it correct(The CC reported to the DC)
There was a lack of diversity shown in this ep's Vulcan. Even ST:The Search for Spock showed black and Asian Vulcans. Enterprise can do better.
About the name - lie - thing:
I introduce myself as "elwood" here
and you know me as that.
When a close friend of mine would come along and meet you and you tell my friend that "elwood" was here my friend would say, my true name is "Thomas". So, is it a lie when I say my name is "elwood"?
Regarding the katra...
Wouldn't these arc of shows, in addition to ST III, prove the existence of a mind/soul? One of the quests of both science & religion is to show the difference b/w the brain & mind/soul. Forget about Warp Speed, THE question of Life, the Universe, and Everything has been solved. 42!
So Trek not only proves Time Travel, but also after-life. Thanx to logical Vulcans. Right?
"There was a lack of diversity shown in this ep's Vulcan. Even ST:The Search for Spock showed black and Asian Vulcans. Enterprise can do better."
can't come up with real complaints?
"Regarding the katra...
Wouldn't these arc of shows, in addition to ST III, prove the existence of a mind/soul? One of the quests of both science & religion is to show the difference b/w the brain & mind/soul. Forget about Warp Speed, THE question of Life, the Universe, and Everything has been solved. 42!
So Trek not only proves Time Travel, but also after-life. Thanx to logical Vulcans. Right?"
Star Trek's a bit screwed up when it comes to religion. Apparently, there is a seperate afterlife for every single species out there.
Rene: Star Trek's a bit screwed up when it comes to religion. Apparently, there is a seperate afterlife for every single species out there.
And exactly how many afterlifes have we actually seen?
Bajoran, Klingon, Ferengi (ok, that was a dream), Vulcan...
Even ST:The Search for Spock showed black and Asian Vulcans.
I find it highly improbable that any Vulcans can trace their ancestry to Asia, a land mass on the planet Earth. Therefore, refering to any Vulcans as Asian is highly illogical.
Regarding the katra (continued)...
I'm reminded of the episode when Picard had to defend Data as a member of Starfleet and not property. Was it The Measure of a Man?
Anyways, Picard said he didn't know if Data had a soul and, indeed, admitted that he wasn't certain if he himself had a soul. Wouldn't a mind-meld offer evidence?
That episode just re-run here in germany.
Its the female Captain and old friend of Picard as the judge who said something like (I need ot translate it myself because I've see most of TNG in german only):
"The question is, if Data has a soul. I don't kow if I have one either."
Well, what exactly IS a mind-meld.
We know close to nothing about the human brain,
mind and consciounce. So we can't actually say what a mind-meld can do.
Maybe some of you with really deep knowledge of all series could make a list and state what was done and why?
Keith Alan Morgan: In Return To Tomorrow we meet the 'spirits' of three ancient entities that Spock thinks may have influenced the develpoment of Vulcans. They are able to transfer their selves to containers & to people. I wonder if this is the predecessor of Vulcans leaving their katras behind?
Luigi Novi: Keith, I just reviewed that ep, and could not find that statement by Spock. Can you remember where in the ep it was?
IIRC it was early when Kirk & company have first met Sargon.
Sargon says to Kirk that they affected development on many planets & may have been the origin of Adam & Eve (or something to that effect) Kirk points out that evidence indicates that Humans evolved, then Spock says something about how that might explain certain Vulcan myths.
Been a long time since I saw it, but I think that's how it goes.
I can accept that T'Pau looked like this when she was much younger, and didn't have an accent (I started to pick up one when I visited Florida for a week a few years back), but I guess my main nit for her is that she's got brown hair here, but black in the future. The producers have gone to great lengths to keep us fans happy, so why not put a black wig on the actress to maintain continuity?
I've got alot of problems with V'Las, though. I saw displays of emotion ranging from anger to smiling to smugness to outrage. This isn't what any Vulcan should be expressing, even in this time period. Sure, the Vulcans are supposed to have been less rigidly bound by Surak's teaching by this era, but his basic philosophy of controlled emotions was still in place, wasn't it? V'Las acted so much like a Romulan as to be completely unrecognizeable as a Vulcan. So, does this mean his meeting with the Romulan at the end of the next episode means that he's a Romulan?
Two shocker deaths in a row; first Admiral Forest, which I never saw coming, then T'Pol's mother. That's something we're not used to.
But back to V'Las; am I missing something here? I gather that the producers are saying the Vulcans we know became that way in Archer's time, but I always thought that logic and the supression of emotion was a constant factor, even at the beginning of this series?
Will: I guess my main nit for her is that she's got brown hair here, but black in the future. The producers have gone to great lengths to keep us fans happy, so why not put a black wig on the actress to maintain continuity?
Dan Gunther: Keep in mind that in Amok Time, T'Pau had jet black hair AND white as-the-driven-snow hair. I know of no natural process that would cause this (maybe there is for Vulcans), so I would surmise that her hair is dyed in Amok Time, possibly for ceremonial reasons?
Yeah, she was HOW old by that point? I think she probably had a wig or something. Though I'm not sure how logical it is for a Vulcan to be concerned with haircolor...
Different hair color is not, IMO, a continuity problem. Christine Chapel and Beverly Crusher changed their hair colors during thier run, and both Riker and Geordi changed their facial hair.
If I were couped up in a cave with a bunch of emotionless Vulcans, I’d rather take my chances with sandstorms and wild animals too
If Arev was really Syrran, the leader of the Syrranites, and was carrying around Surak’s katra in his noggin, then why was he out in the middle of the desert with dangerous sehlats and sandfires all about?
He was too busy studying how to properly imitate the roar of a sehlat
Jamahl Epsicokhan, in his review of the episode, wondered why Syrran never found the Kir’Shara when he had Surak’s katra?
George W. Bush: “Ladies and gentlemen, members of the press, I would like to announce my choice for my new Director of Homeland Security…”
While Jamahl found the revelation about V’Las’ plans for Andoria to be interesting, he found the bombing of Earth’s embassy for a frame-up to be an overly elaborate and roundabout way of creating an excuse to wipe out a small faction of your own people, particularly since those people posed no actual threat to V’Las’ unilateral decision to attack Andoria. Jamahl commented that this would be roughly as necessary as the Bush Administration destroying an antiwar lobby group prior to the Iraq invasion.
Trip: “Too bad we don’t have a Melder to tell use what Corporal Askuith knows.”
Soval: “Actually, I’m a Melder, and I can get that info from him.”
Trip: “Really? Wow, is there anything else we should know?”
Soval: “Um, well, yes, actually V’Las is planning to invade Andoria.”
Trip: “Ambassador, are you telling us absolutely everything?”
Soval: “Well actually no, we’re also out of coffee.”
Everyone on the ship: “AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!”
Jamahl also questioned why Soval, if he knew about the invasion, didn’t say something to Trip hours or days ago, or for that matter, to Archer and T’Pol, when the information would’ve been equally or more useful to them.
Oh, wait, Captain Dunsel already made that nit about finding the katra. Sorry! :0
Luigi; 'Different hair color is not, IMO, a continuity problem.'
I gotta disagree, Luigi, because you use Chapel and Beverly as examples of women that changed their hair colour. We're talking about T'Pau here, a full-blooded Vulcan, who is a Syrannite, and thus a follower of Surak's teachings. Changing your hair color sounds to me like vanity, which a Vulcan would never be, or someone that wants to adhere to some sort of social change which real people do here on Earth in the 21st century,, but on Vulcan? I was born was fair hair that was nearly blonde, but as an adult I have brown, so how could a young adult like T'Pau have reddish-brown hair , and as an old lady she has black with some white? Like I said, just give the actress a black wig and it would have given us all one thing less to nit pick.
Jamahl Epsicokhan, in his review of the episode, wondered why Syrran never found the Kir’Shara when he had Surak’s katra? - Luigi Novi
From what we've seen of people carrying another person's katra, it's not as simple as one person having immediate access to the sum of the katra's knowledge. Most of the knowledge seems to be implanted in the subconscious. Surak, for instance, communicates with Archer in dreams... McCoy is never quite himself when speaking as Spock.
Granted, our only evidence is through Vulcan/human katra transfers. But there's no evidence that it doesn't work similarly from Vulcan to Vulcan. So maybe Syran wasn't able to consciously access the knowledge of the Kir'Shara's location. Or maybe Surak's katra somehow suppressed that knowledge until a time it felt it would be needed.
I was born was fair hair that was nearly blonde, but as an adult I have brown, so how could a young adult like T'Pau have reddish-brown hair , and as an old lady she has black with some white? - Will
You answered your own question. If you can allow that your hair changes color throughout your life, why can't you allow that T'Pau's did the same thing? In any case, who's to say that hair pigmentation in Vulcan physiology works the same as in human physiology?
In any case, who's to say that hair pigmentation in Vulcan physiology works the same as in human physiology?
Well, we do have the examples of Sarek and Spock. Sarek went from gray to white, and Spock went from black to gray.
Sarek may not be a good example, though, since his Bendii Syndrome may have been a cause.
"...maybe Surak's katra somehow suppressed that knowledge until a time it felt it would be needed."
Didn't Surak tell Archer something about needing an outsider to help him?
It seems that the High Command Vulcans wouldn't believe the Syrannites, but they would believe Archer who wouldn't have an agenda.
Darth Sarcasm: From what we've seen of people carrying another person's katra, it's not as simple as one person having immediate access to the sum of the katra's knowledge. Most of the knowledge seems to be implanted in the subconscious. Surak, for instance, communicates with Archer in dreams... McCoy is never quite himself when speaking as Spock.
Luigi Novi: And what Jamahl actually asked (though I didn’t word it as such—I worded it as if having the katra automatically granted access to the memories) was why Surak didn’t tell Syrran where to find it. He suppressed it until it would be needed? What, it wasn’t needed until the Syrranites were bombed and murdered? It wasn’t needed earlier? I’m gonna have to agree with Jammer on this one. Without mentioning this reason, it’s a huge nit. (More on this below.)
Terik Q: Didn't Surak tell Archer something about needing an outsider to help him?
Luigi Novi: He sorta implied it when he said that because Archer was human, he was “untouched by a culture that can no longer see its own imminent destruction.” But in what way would this have precluded Syrran from being told where the Kir’Shara was? And in what way did being an outsider affect Archer’s ability to carry an artifact into the Administrator’s office greater than Syrran’s? If anything, as the leader of the Syrrannites, Syrran himself deepy held Surak’s philosophy himself more than Archer did, and could’ve spread Surak’s teachings, even before the Kir’Shara was found, which would’ve made it harder for the High Command to malign him, T’Paul and his people.
Terik Q: It seems that the High Command Vulcans wouldn't believe the Syrannites, but they would believe Archer who wouldn't have an agenda.
Luigi Novi: V’Las didn’t believe Archer either. He wanted to destroy the Kir’Shara. It was only the holographic gospels being projected onto the walls of the Administrator’s chamber that seemed to do the trick.
I also find it interesting that we’re talking about hair color changing, because my two-year old nephew came over this evening, and it’s the first time I’ve seen him since his hair turned from blonde to brown (the hair color of both his parents).
I’m gonna have to agree with Jammer on this one. Without mentioning this reason, it’s a huge nit. - Luigi Novi
As Terik Q pointed out (and you discuss later), a reason was given, albeit cryptically.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have a tape of this episode to check. If I remember correctly, during one of Archer's visions of Surak, they are standing underneath or in front of an archway that looks just like the Guardian of Forever
There's no arc. When Archer is looking at the nuclear explosions, he is looking through a hole in the cave wall, which is what the Guardian looked like, but holes pretty much look alike, don't they? Moreover, the hole in this episode has a man-made stone pillar right in the middle.
Why Surak didn't show Syrran the location of the Kir'Shara: Maybe Surak felt that the Kir'Shara needed to be used at a time when the High Command would be receptive to it, and V'Las' nuttiness brought that about.
Why an outsider was needed: Possibly the High Command would have had Syrran arrested the moment he walked in and he wouldn't have had a chance to activate the Kir'Shara. Then V'Las would have destroyed it, and that would be the end of it.
Why Syrran was in a dangerous desert seemingly wandering around: It could be (as I posted on another board) that Syrran was seeking Archer out, on Surak's instructions, because he needed an outsider. I don't know how he managed to find Archer, though, but that's a problem however you look at it.
Both very good points, Nove. I myself just realized that by waiting for outsiders like Enterprise to show up, Surak could be more certain that the matter could not be covered up, because by placing humans in the middle of it, especially prominent ones like the heroes of the Xindi matter, he could ensure that a cover up could not be enacted.
Forgot something else:
Jamahl also found it odd that the Syrrannites never found the Kir’Shara themselves, pointing out that T’Pau stated, right before they entered the passageway, that she had been searching the caves for two years, yet couldn’t find it, even though the passageway leads to a large circular stone door that practically announces, “IMPORTANT RELIC INSIDE”? On this, I agree. The writers and the set designers should’ve had the passageway behind what looked like a solid cave wall, so that only Archer could “sense” that it was behind there, and perhaps manipulate it using some special hand gesture in the same way he did that second circular wall that had the Kir’Shara behind it, which would explain why T’Pau never found it in two years. Putting a passageway there that everyone knew about, but without letting anyone find that stone door, makes no sense.
This was a great episode! Despite a few plot nits such as (1) why didn't Syran find the Kir'Shara and (2) why did it take Archer to point at the Big Obvious Mystic Door; but these did not detract from my enjoyment of the whole.
In particulary, I found the idea of there being a nuclear war on Vulcan during the Awakening between the *cough* Romulans and the Surak-followers (or perhaps between two different emotional Vulcan groups and Surak's followers sat it out) to be very exciting. It certainly helps explain why the Vulcans could have advanced enough tech for the Romulans to have FTL ships to get to Romulus, yet later not have advanced so much further - they were set back to zero and had to start again.
"Regarding the katra...
Wouldn't these arc of shows, in addition to ST III, prove the existence of a mind/soul? One of the quests of both science & religion is to show the difference b/w the brain & mind/soul. Forget about Warp Speed, THE question of Life, the Universe, and Everything has been solved. 42!
So Trek not only proves Time Travel, but also after-life. Thanx to logical Vulcans. Right?"
Star Trek's a bit screwed up when it comes to religion. Apparently, there is a seperate afterlife for every single species out there.
Reminds me of the Babylon 5 episode "Soul Hunter". When they are debating a race who clams to take a person's soul before death so that it may be kept safe after the body dies. I think it was Dr Franklen said something like "perhaps you could clone brainwaves but to actually steal someone's soul, it's medically impossible." Same thing here. When 2 minds merge apparently the one can implant something into the other that holds memories and parts of that person's knowlege and personality but that doesn't address the existance of a soul that can leave the body after death any more than Data's memory being transfered into B4 (or Lal's brain into Data.)
Also wouldn't the fact that Vulcan's go though so much trouble to transfer a Katra to another before death suggest that they do not believe in an afterlife or any kind of natural reincarnation?
Personally when I watched ST II and ST III the katra seemed more like a backup copy or a system restore file like one might do on a computer before doing something dangerous with a computer (or the syncordings in the film "The Sixth Day"). Spock melded with McCoy before going into the chamber. When he was in the chamber and talking to Kirk before he died he was still himself. It wasn't like his soul had gone out of his body and he was just an empty shell.
Joanna Cassidy has also appeared on Six Feet Under along with Robert Foxworth, as the divorced parents of Brenda Chenowith Fisher (Rachel Griffiths).
T'Pau must have un-learned English in the century between now an Amok Time(TOS). She speaks it quite fluently here, but in Amok Time, she appears to be speaking it haltingly. Of course, that may be due to the formality of the occasion. But why the differing accents?