I only have one immediate comment- the meeting at the very end was a surprise(I won't give it away, but it will be interesting to see how that is resolved in the future)but why was V'Las available to attend that meeting? Isn't someone under investigation usually monitored, or held in custody?

I was wondering the same thing about V'las. Not only that, but where did the Romulan come from? How did these two get together for a meeting? That scene seemed unnecessary and tacked-on. The story should have ended without it.

Nice use of the lirpa in the Forge, where energy weapons won't work.

Oh, and to constanze, there was a Vulcan with asiatic features in one of the High Command scenes.

I found it interesting that Archer could take out so many of the guardsmen in the Forge. I thought Vulcans had 3 times the strength of humans...plus, Archer's been hiking through the Vulcan mountains for the past few days!

>> Before the lipra weilding Vulcans get shocked, one of the Vulcans starts shaking before the electricity effect begins.

>> The Romulan at the end had the head ridges, even though the Romulans in TOS did not.

That's it for now. I missed the first half of the episode. I liked what I saw though.

TUE

Archer used the neck pinch! I thought only Vulcans (and certain androids) could do that! Guess it's just a skill and humans could learn it, if only they had the discipline of a Vulcan.

McCoy couldn't do it even though he had Spock's katra in "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock"

TUE

Of course, maybe Spock's katra's just screwing with McCoy. Let him think he can do it and then say, "Whoops, I forget."

TUE

We now have a motive for the Earth-Romulan War: retaliation.

Quite possibly, Romulans could become angered by humans for thwarting their secret attempt to reunify with Vulcans and for damaging further attempts by changing the Vulcan society.

Scary thought.

Here are nits and notes:

-- Not only will a human not see a Romulan for more than 100 years, but neither will their appearance be known to the Vulcan general population for that long. This despite the presence of at least one Romulan on Vulcan during the 22nd century. We know from "Balance of Terror" that Spock was as surprised as the humans by the appearance of Romulans.

-- Now we have the additional question of why do Romulans have head ridges in the 22nd century but not the 23rd? Of course, we already have similar question about the appearances of Klingons, Andorians, Tellarites and others, so why not Romulans, too?

-- The torture scenes reminded me of the ones between Garak and Odo from "The Die is Cast." In both cases, technology made it possible to torture the victim. And in both cases, I found the scenes awkward and largely pointless.

-- The priest who accepted Surak's katra was portrayed by same actor who officiated at T'Pol's wedding, so we can assume it was the same person. As a mainstream priest, wouldn't he have been influenced by Vulcan society and not a practiced melder?

-- I suppose we will be left to wonder what were V'Las' motives for reunification.

-- It was a big part of the middle chapter that Archer had to be the one to bring the kir'shara to the Vulcan people. But it never became evident why. In the end, it still seemed like happenstance -- only because Archer was closest when Syran died -- and not because only an outsider could awaken the people.

"McCoy couldn't do it even though he had Spock's katra in "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock".

But Seven Of Nine took out Tuvok in Voyager's The Raven with it; of course she had Borg implant doohickeys, though.

"I found it interesting that Archer could take out so many of the guardsmen in the Forge. I thought Vulcans had 3 times the strength of humans...plus, Archer's been hiking through the Vulcan mountains for the past few days!"

Maybe Captain Quantum-Boy has some Augment in his family tree.

Speaking of Barbie Of Borg: One of the personae possessing her in Voyager's Infinite Regress introduced itself as "Subaltern Lorot, Vulcan High Command"; yet at the end of _this_ ep it was announced that the High Command was to be abolished. I'm confused.

I _did_ like this ep, though.

Quite good final,
far better than the final from the augment story.

I also wondered why Archer could take out so many Vulcans. From my understanding the planets gravity is higher and thats why Vulcans are stronger on earth so Archer would be weaker on Vulcan combined with the stressfull conditions in the Forge and the weakness from the meldings in general.

My guess was that he was motivated by Surak and his mission.

Why didn't bring the guards who engage the trio
particle weapons with them? They only have those vulcan combat things. (their name anyone?)

HEY a romulan, someone thought in the right direction.
NIT: So, there is a romulan in a cave on vulcan conspiracing with the elader of the high command.
Did he stay on a cloaked ship and was it a short visit? Anyway it was very dumb to wear the romulan uniform and no disguise at all.
Of course it was mainly for the viewers to recognise him directly but still its a nit.

Soval says in the end "the High Command will be dissolved". That might mean that other members are chosen but not the institution itself.

My guess was that T`Pau transfers the Katra to herself in the end.

As I said last weak I (we) know few things about melds and katras.
Archer says after the transfer "like a giant weight has been lifted".
Does that mean that he lost all of Suraks memories? In TNG when Picard melded with Sarek it always was said that both partners carry a part of the other from then on. Is a Katra more like a active conscience in another mind and a meld more like memories shared? It seems so.

elwood: Why didn't bring the guards who engage the trio
particle weapons with them? They only have those vulcan combat things. (their name anyone?)

Dan Gunther: They're called "lirpas" and they didn't bring particle weapons because technology doesn't work in the Forge, as explained in "The Forge." (Although, it seems holographic camoflage DOES work... hmm...)

The ending with L'Vas and the Romulan had me confused too. I thought L'Vas would be in a brig, or is this somekind of flashback or meld? Also, I think too much was wrapped up in the last few minutes.

I enjoyed the exchanges between Archer and T'Pol in the caves. I wish there would have more time to expand on some their conversations. When Archer stated he now understood why Vulcans suppress their emotions, I was hoping he would explain his thought. I wanted to know more on why Archer thought T'Pol should look more into the Syrannite's beliefs. Still, she resisted looking at the issue from a nonscientific way, "This has nothing to do with science".

The Vulcan Priest removing the Katra from Archer reminded me very much of a male version of Dame Judith Anderson from ST 3:The Search for Spock.

Is it just me, but there seems to be a lot of torture scenes in Trek recently (and tv, in general, such as LOST). Sometimes feel like I'm an spectactor being unwillingly dragged to an S&M dungeon.

"-- Not only will a human not see a Romulan for more than 100 years, but neither will their appearance be known to the Vulcan general population for that long. This despite the presence of at least one Romulan on Vulcan during the 22nd century. We know from "Balance of Terror" that Spock was as surprised as the humans by the appearance of Romulans."

How is that a nit?

"I suppose we will be left to wonder what were V'Las' motives for reunification"

Yes. Because they certainly won't follow up on this. [rolls eyes]

Rene: Yes. Because they certainly won't follow up on this.

Dan Gunther: Hmmm... good point. You're right, they probably won't.

Um...that was sarcasm. They will.

Yeah, uhm... no kidding. Hence the little thing called the smiley -----> If you're going to use sarcasm, learn to recognize it in others and have faith that they will understand what [rolls eyes] means. ;)

---Critique:
---A somewhat predictable conclusion to the arc, given what happened in the first two parts, but an okay one.
---I think the weakest part of the arc was V’Las as a villain. The guy was such an unreasonable mustache-twirler that his eventually overthrow by Kuvak and the rest of the Council couldn’t have been more telegraphed if the script was typed by Samuel Morse. I’m also conflicted about T’Pol’s divorce. While the viewer in me is sorta happy about it, the armchair analyst/editor/critic in me feels that the tragedy that punctuated the ending of Home is now gone.
---The strongest parts of the episode, of course, were Archer and Shran. I mentioned under my critique for the previous ep how Archer’ s experience with Surak’s katra gives him a greater sense of interstellar prestige, since the Vulcans may now view him as someone with a more special rapport to their people than any other human, much as with Sisko and the Bajorans on Deep Space Nine. In this episode, that feeling continues, in that Archer’s statement to T’Pol in Act 2 that he feels more centered and that he understands the Vulcan suppression of emotions seems to mirror the epiphany Sisko had in The Rapture(DS9), after which he no longer resisted the title of Emissary, and began to embrace it more earnestly. Shran’s continuing conflict between his duty to Andoria and his desire to trust Archer and now Soval was also a nice entry into his saga, and his “That’s two he owes me” refrain was a nice bit of ongoing continuity with his character.
---Kudos also go to the production design. One of the familiar recurring nits in Trek is when footage from one episode or movie later shows up as video footage in another, as if someone was around with a camera in the previous story, filming the events from the exact same angle from which we the viewer saw those events, as with Spock’s meld with Bones in Star Trek III, or the destruction of the Enterprise shown in ST IV. In this episode, however, the footage of the Xindi Weapon prototype test seen in the teaser doesn’t look simply like the reused footage from Proving Ground, but is taken from a different angle, and even appears distorted on the convex Vulcan viewer, giving the impression that it was taken from sensors on either the Enterprise or the Kumari. Well done!

---Notes:
---We learn from T’Pau in Act 1 of this episode that gallicite can be dangerous for anyone with metal on their person, in that it can emit powerful energy discharges that are attracted to metal.
---It is revealed in the teaser that Paan Mokar/Weytahn was given to the Andorians in the peace treaty negotiated at the end of Cease Fire. In Act 1 we learn of a new rank among the Vulcan military, that of Sub-Lieutenant. We also learn that Pa’nar Syndrome was known in Surak’s time, that it is caused by improperly trained melders, and that it is curable, by way of an experienced melder who can correct the imbalance. V’Las mentions in the second-to-last scene of Act 3 that few crimes are still punishable by execution on Vulcan, but that treason is one of them. Minister Kuvak’s name and rank are explicitly mentioned for the first time in Act 4. I mentioned under Notes for The Forge that the Vulcan IDIC map and holographic entrance to the Syrrannite compound gave an idea of Vulcan 2150’s holography. Act 4 of this episode indicates that even the Vulcans of 1,800 years ago had sophisticated holography. And although we learned in Home that Koss’ family had connections, this episode would seem to indicate that he is a high-level member of the High Command, inasmuch as he was able to give T’Pol transporter codes to Archer to infiltrate V’Las’ office.
---We learn in the closing scene of Act 1 that Andorians now have transporters, and we see an Andorian transporter signature for the first time in that scene.

---Continuity Nods:
---During their journey in Act 1, T’Pau points out deposits of gallicite, which Blood Fever(VOY) established are used in the construction of Federation warp coils.
---Soval mentions the city of Gol in Act 2, which is likely the location after which the Stone of Gol mentioned in Gambit part II(TNG) was named. We see lirpas being used in battle for the first time since Amok Time(TOS).
---Soval tells Shran in Act 1 that V’Las is assembling his invasion fleet near Regulus, a system first alluded to in Amok Time(TOS), and later in The Trouble with Tribbles(TOS), and Fascination(DS9), and one of the officers that arrests T’Pol in the closing scene of Act 2 tells her in the opening scene of Act 3 that she commanded him during the Tomed mission. The Tomed Incident, which cost thousands of Federation lives, and heralded the Romulan isolationism that ended in 2364, was first mentioned in The Neutral Zone(TNG).

---Terms:
Major Talok Vulcan military offical whom V’Las orders, through his sub-lieutenant, to find and eradicate the remaining Syrranites in Act 1.
Sub-Lieutenant Rank in the Vulcan military, held by the subordinate of V’Las’, whom he has issue orders to Major Talok in Act 1.
neuro-synaptic field Energy generated by the torture device Shran uses on Soval in Act 2, which Shran says lowers a Vulcan’s emotional threshold.
particle flux Aspect of the nebula that Hoshi says in Act 2 is overloading their sensor, and for which Trip says will take hours to compensate.
Nirak A solider who Soval tells Shran while being tortured by him in Act 2 who lived a long time ago, standing watch over the gates of the city of Gol, when he saw a cloud on the horizon moving toward him. Soval says that he said nothing because he thought it was a sandstorm, but it turned out to be an army that destroyed the city. Soval adds that the army let Nirak live, and that the name Nirak now means “fool” in the Vulcan language.
nirak Vulcan word for “fool,” derived from the ancient solider of the same name whose incompetence led to the destruction of the city of Gol, as Soval tells Shran in Act 2.
Gol City that Soval mentions to Shran while being tortured by him in Act 2. The city was destroyed by an army because Nirak, the soldier standing watch at the gates thought that the army, which appeared to be a cloud on the horizon, was just a sandstorm.
Tomed mission Mission during which T’Pol commanded one of the officers who takes her into custody in the closing scene of Act 2.

Even worse, Shran keeps referring to it simply as “that big crater we’re gonna make”
Once again, the creators refuse to give an important city or location on a planet a name. In the opening scene of Act 1, Archer asks T’Pau how far it is to “the capital.”
And then there’s that nebula filled with oat bran, which is known as the Irregular System…
Soval tells Shran in Act 1 that V’Las is assembling his invasion “near Regulus.” Well, which one? There’s at least five planets in that system, according to Amok Time(TOS). Does he mean the entire system? Usually, characters refer to systems by saying, “The Regulus system.”
It was a bit less subtle in the original script, which mentioned that V’Las has had four heart attacks and was CEO of Halliburton
Can somebody explain to me where the First Minister, mentioned in Home, is in all of this? Or why V’Las doesn’t seem to have to clear his actions with him? Perhaps V’Las is able to take these actions, like the invasion of Andoria, because he has influenced the First Minister into sharing his views of the Syrrannites and Andorians, but it would be nice to see that he is present somewhere during all of this. T’Pau tells Archer in Act 4 that V’Las cannot govern without the consent of the Council. Well, what about the First Minister? Given the references to V’Las’ “governing” in the past two episodes, it’s almost as if the arc has forgotten about the First Minister, and is treating V’Las as the leader of Vulcan.
Definitely not a “precision strike” solution to the problem
Soval tells Archer at in the second-to-last scene of the episode that the High Command will be dissolved. How is this? Isn’t the High Command composed of the commanders of the military? Isn’t this like finding out that one person in the Pentagon or Joint Chiefs of Staff is corrupt, and dissolving the entire group, rather than simply replacing him?

Soldier #1: “Jolene Blalock’s in this scene? (picks up lirpa) Uh, hey, I have pon farr!”
Soldier #2: “Yeah, me too!”
Vulcan soldiers appear in the Forge armed with lirpas to arrest the Syrrannites. If the Vulcans cannot use energy weapons in the Forge, why not use mechanical guns, perhaps equipped with tranquilizer darts? Why lirpas?
As opposed to a VOY-era one, which might’ve showcased his rear end and featured his nipples poking out
The uniform that the Romulan is wearing looks far more like a NextGen-era one than a TOS one.

dotter31: I only have one immediate comment- the meeting at the very end was a surprise(I won't give it away, but it will be interesting to see how that is resolved in the future)but why was V'Las available to attend that meeting? Isn't someone under investigation usually monitored, or held in custody?
Luigi Novi: I thought of that too, but I figured that because Romulans like the one we saw are in high levels of the government, they probably have the means to spirit him or beam away for short periods before anyone becomes suspicious. Of course, even I have to admit that if that’s a prison uniform that V’Las is wearing, the embossed gold lettering down its right side seems a bit ornate.

Mike Ram: I found it interesting that Archer could take out so many of the guardsmen in the Forge. I thought Vulcans had 3 times the strength of humans...plus, Archer's been hiking through the Vulcan mountains for the past few days!
Luigi Novi: What I got from these scenes was that he was using fighting skills of Surak. Strength alone does not win fights. Speed, leverage and application of sensitive nerve points also do, and the fights seen didn’t seem like strength vs. strength-type fights, but involved such things as grappling.

TUE: Before the lipra weilding Vulcans get shocked, one of the Vulcans starts shaking before the electricity effect begins.
Luigi Novi: Actually, both of them do. But I’m not sure it wasn’t deliberate, given how out of synch it was with the arc. I would suggest that because electricity (if that’s what it was) and an electrical arc are not the same thing, that the soldiers began feeling the field effect before arcs became visible.

Anonymous: I thought only Vulcans (and certain androids) could do that! Guess it's just a skill and humans could learn it, if only they had the discipline of a Vulcan.
Luigi Novi: Data used it in Unification part II(TNG). Archer could use it because he was using Surak’s knowledge.

TUE: McCoy couldn't do it even though he had Spock's katra in "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock"
Luigi Novi: Good point. I would suggest that it depends on how resistant the person is to the mind meld. Bones, after all, was visibly disturbed by the meld, and Kirk even gave him some type of medication for it, whereas Archer tells T’Pol in this episode that he feels far more centered by it, suggesting that perhaps he is less resistant to it.

Trike: Not only will a human not see a Romulan for more than 100 years, but neither will their appearance be known to the Vulcan general population for that long. This despite the presence of at least one Romulan on Vulcan during the 22nd century. We know from "Balance of Terror" that Spock was as surprised as the humans by the appearance of Romulans.
Luigi Novi: There’s no reason why the relationship between V’Las and the Romulan cannot remain secret until that episode.

Trike: The torture scenes reminded me of the ones between Garak and Odo from "The Die is Cast." In both cases, technology made it possible to torture the victim. And in both cases, I found the scenes awkward and largely pointless.
Luigi Novi: In the prior episode, it was a narrative pretext to draw out Odo’s admission that deep down he wanted to be with his people, and Garak’s conflict about how much he had changed since his Obsidian Order days, and grown attached to the DS9 personnel, now having to torture one of them to prove himself.

Trike: The priest who accepted Surak's katra was portrayed by same actor who officiated at T'Pol's wedding, so we can assume it was the same person. As a mainstream priest, wouldn't he have been influenced by Vulcan society and not a practiced melder?
Luigi Novi: You just described Soval. He is mainstream, and he’s a Melder.

elwood: Soval says in the end "the High Command will be dissolved". That might mean that other members are chosen but not the institution itself.
Luigi Novi: That’s what that phrasing means. If he meant that members would be replaced, he’d have said so.

elwood: Archer says after the transfer "like a giant weight has been lifted". Does that mean that he lost all of Suraks memories?
Luigi Novi: Not necessarily.

Rona: When Archer stated he now understood why Vulcans suppress their emotions, I was hoping he would explain his thought. I wanted to know more on why Archer thought T'Pol should look more into the Syrannite's beliefs.
Luigi Novi: To me, it was obvious. The Syrrannite interpretation of Surak’s teachings is not only implied to be more faithful to them, but a more moral and internally consistent one (in that it seems to be the basis of the TOS-TNG-era Vulcan character).

Data used it in Unification part II(TNG). Archer could use it because he was using Surak’s knowledge. - Luigi Novi

Ummm... isn't that what Anonymous said?

Not bad, I really enjoyed it. The end was a little rushed, but it was still a fine hour of Trek.

So, they showed T'Pau attempt to cure T'Pol's Pa’nar Syndrome. It would have been nice to get some dialogue confirming that she is in fact cured. Maybe next month.

I really hope they don't hook Trip and T'Pol back up.

Rene: How is that a nit?

Trike did say that they are nits and notes.

Rene -

Your post re: Trike has been dumped.

As always, if Richie disagrees, he can restore the post from the Garbage Dump.

Your friendly Roving Moderator,
MJ

Sigh. Why do I bother with this place?

Darth Sarcasm: Ummm... isn't that what Anonymous said?
Luigi Novi: I missed the “and androids” parenthetical. Thanks.

Rene: Sigh. Why do I bother with this place?
Luigi Novi: I dunno, Rene. I think the more salient question is why do you feel you have to be antagonistic to others here?

Okay people, SERIOUSLY, that's enough. And I'm talking to all sides here, not just Rene. I know I have no authority here, but PLEASE, if your post is not "Kir'Shara" related, seriously reconsider posting it before you do. And that's all I'm going to say on this. Thank you.

Moderators!

Strike my post above. Temptation got the best of me. Peace.

The Vulcan Priest removing the Katra from Archer reminded me very much of a male version of Dame Judith Anderson from ST 3:The Search for Spock.

I thought he looked a lot like one Andorian from TOS (Journey to Babel?). No name match that I could find, though.

Herbert's first post and Rene's follow up post have been dumped as well.

Why does Shran say that Archer now owes him "two"? I'd say that the heads-up of the Vulcan attack on Andoria should cancel out any perceived debts, whether it's to Archer, the Enterprise, or Earth in general.

-The Vulcan Priest removing the Katra from Archer reminded me very much of a male version of Dame Judith Anderson from ST 3:The Search for Spock.--

--I thought he looked a lot like one Andorian from TOS (Journey to Babel?). No name match that I could find, though.--

Yeah, didn't the same man play a Bajoran Vedic in an episode of DS9?

True, Influx, and I almost made a nit of that myself, but what Shran was referring to was the fact that when the Enterprise came under under attack by a Vulcan cruiser, two of Shran's ships directed it away by firing on it (the second of which I'm assuming is the one Shran was on). There is still an element of unreasonability on Shran's part, but I attribute this to simply that quirky obligation-debt obsesssion on the part of that character.

By Darth Sarcasm on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 03:08 pm:


Data used it in Unification part II(TNG). Archer could use it because he was using Surak’s knowledge. - Luigi Novi

Ummm... isn't that what Anonymous said?

At least somebody noticed!!!

(j/k, Luigi, I kid because I love!)

I just wanted to ask, why was someone nitpicking the "changed appearance" of the Andorians? The only difference I noticed is that their antennae move now, and it wouldn't surprise me if that was one of the things TPTB wanted to do on TOS but didn't have the technology to do.

Their makeup also have a slight forehead appliance, Bryce.

Don't they have blue teeth now too?

"We don't talk about it."

Worf's response from DS9's "Trials and Tribilations" is still too frelling funny, and still the best thing I think TPTB can say in trying to explain thirty-some years of advancements in prosthetic appliances...and a much bigger budget than DesiLu ever gave Gene Roddenberry.

How do we know that's really a Romulan? I didn't think he was a Romulan when I saw the episode.

In one TOS episode Spock uses the neck pinch, Kirk says "Pity you couldn't teach me that" and Spock says, "I have tried, captain."

According to Trek:
Humans have souls in "Turnabout Intruder".
But Picard doesn't believe it in "Power Play"
Talaxians don't; "Mortal Coil".

I must have missed the scene with the Romulan, or maybe the TV station cut it for a commercial; I wouldn't be surprised if they had.

The ridges and the uniform sorta gave it away.

The comment on reunification was also a pretty solid clue.

It was a big part of the middle chapter that Archer had to be the one to bring the kir'shara to the Vulcan people. But it never became evident why. In the end, it still seemed like happenstance -- only because Archer was closest when Syran died -- and not because only an outsider could awaken the people.

Maybe Syrran "found" Archer with the intent of giving him the katra and his death just forced him to do it sooner. Of course, as someone else pointed out, I don't know how he would have found Archer in a vast desert.

--I thought he (the Vulcan priest) looked a lot like one Andorian from TOS (Journey to Babel?). No name match that I could find, though.--

Yeah, didn't the same man play a Bajoran Vedic in an episode of DS9? - Mike Ram

Jack Donner played the priest (also in "Home") and also played Subcommander Tal in "The Enterprise Incident." The IMDB lists no other Trek appearances for him.

"The Enterprise Incident" was an episode of the original series. I forgot to point that out.

Also, I don't remember the other Romulan episode of Enterprise all that well, so someone may correct me. However, it seems to me that a viewer who was not familiar with the other Trek shows would be hopelessly confused by that ending. That doesn't seem very conducive to attracting an audience. Is this the only time Enterprise has done something that made no sense without knowledge of other series?

brent: According to Trek:
Humans have souls in "Turnabout Intruder".
But Picard doesn't believe it in "Power Play"
Talaxians don't; "Mortal Coil".
Luigi Novi: Picard never said he didn't believe in souls. He said he didn't believe that the three beings that possessed Troi, Data and O'Brien were Jat'yln.

I also don't recall any mention in Mortal Coil(VOY) that Talaxians don't believe in souls, especially since we heard a good deal about their afterlife.

From Richie Dan Part of your comments have been delted all I can say is I cant ban IPs.

And regarding the episode, some people have said that if the show were to explain the disappearance of the Klingon forehead ridges, then the Romulans' ridges should be explained as well. However, I disagree. The two cases differ slightly in that the Klingons' change was acknowledged by Worf in "Trials and Tribble-ations" while the Romulans' different appearance has not been "noticed" by anyone in any of the episodes or movies. Therefore, we can say that Romulans have always looked the way they do. Keep on nitpicking everyone, and do it in good cheer and happiness!

Also, Spock was able to blend in effortlessly in Unification, which would imply that non-rigded Romulans exist in the TNG era, and are not noteworthy. Perhaps there are two kinds of Romulans (plus the Remans).

ScottN: Also, Spock was able to blend in effortlessly in Unification, which would imply that non-rigded Romulans exist in the TNG era, and are not noteworthy. Perhaps there are two kinds of Romulans (plus the Remans).

Dan Gunther: Hey, good point, I never thought of that. Funny, seeing as that was my previous explanation for the Klingon ridges (until, of course, DS9's "Blood Oath." Hey, come to think of it, DS9 screwed it ALL up!!! With "Blood Oath" and "Trials and Tribble-ations"! Man, for my favorite Trek, they sure didn't take into account the sanity of geeks such as myself!)

ScottN: ScottN: Also, Spock was able to blend in effortlessly in Unification, which would imply that non-rigded Romulans exist in the TNG era, and are not noteworthy. Perhaps there are two kinds of Romulans (plus the Remans).
Yeah, that was the explanation they used in the TNG book Crossover. I know it's not cancon, but it explained things for me.

Josh, I fail to see what a city in Mexico has to do with whether the explanation is sufficient. And think you spelled it wrong, too.

And think you spelled it wrong, too. - Luigi

Hey, now... it was a simple typo. No need to insult people by telling them they need to think. Have you been picking up bad habits from certain posters?

Uh, DS, he was probably meaning to say "I think you spelled it wrong."

Mind you, I don't see what the heck Crossover has to do with a city in Mexico (but my knowledge of the country is pretty limited, so...).

Well, they do have some nice pyramids there. Maybe John Edwards taped an ep of Crossing Over there?

I know, CB... hence the smiley.

Luigi's Mexico comment was in reference to Josh's misspelling of canon.

cancon... Cancun

Any other jokes that need explanation?

Re: Different looking Romulans

Hey, not all humans look alike, and unlike Klingons, we've never seen the same exact Romulan with both ridges and without ridges, so I just assume some have it, some don't. Maybe even some Vulcans have it, just rare, like black Vulcans (hmmm... are there black Romulans, then?) Personally, I'd just like to know why all female Romulans have bowl cuts in the TNG/DS9 era, seeing as there was at least one Romulan woman with long hair in TOS. I guess we just don't get to see any of them...

Re: Different looking Andorians

In addition to the few differences already mentioned, don't the antennae attach at a different point on Ent than on TOS?

I think so. I think that in Journey To Babel(TOS), the antennae attached towards the rear of the head, while the Enterprise Andorians' antennae come off of the forehead area.

cancon... Cancun

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh. I get it.

Ha, that's funny.

Anonymous: hmmm... are there black Romulans, then?

Dan Gunther: Yep. We actually saw a black Romulan before we saw Tuvok. Check out Commander Sirol in TNG's "The Pegasus."

Tuvok was a black Romulan?? That's news to me... :-)

Regarding how V'Las can be free to meet with the Romulan at the end, another explanation that just occurred to me is that he might currently be under house arrest. It might be easier for him to manipulate whatever tagging device he has on him (if any), and it would also explain his nice-looking clothing.

Captain Bryce: Tuvok was a black Romulan?? That's news to me... :-)

Dan Gunther: Uhm... exactly to what are you responding? No one on the board has referred to Tuvok as a black Romulan...

Yep. We actually saw a black Romulan before we saw Tuvok. - Dan Gunther

Taken by itself (without the context of the thread), this statement could lead one to interpret that you're suggesting Tuvok wasn't the first black Romulan.

Captain Bryce I'm sure knew your meaning, but was just having fun... hence the smiley.

Why am I the only one understanding everyone else's humor suddenly?

Humor? People use humor on these forums? When did that start?


Oh yeah:

Humour? Pah! I laugh at your puny human attempts at humour!!! Oh, heck, I mean...

Hahahaha!!! Yes. Humour is understood by me. A human. *Ahem* Yes.

Humor... Highly illogial...

Or illogical, even...

So apparently Archer's rank insignia are not metal. Funny, they sure look like it

Reused prop: that sub-lieutanant subordinate of V'lass sits in captain Janeway Ready Room chair! Blasphemy, I say!

Give a little bit of heart and soul
Give a little bit of love to grow
Give a little bit of heart and soul
Now don't you make me beg for love
Give a sign - I need to know
A little bit of heart and soul

Man, had to get that out of my system with all this talk of T'Pau...

Kevin Nealon: Cajun Man, where did you go for vacation?

Adam Sandler: Cancon....

"She certainly can, Cancun..."
Anybody get the reference?

I don't think it has anything to do with
Tin Can Alley. (Anybody get that reference?)

Anyway, if Vulcans can be black, and Romulans are related to Vulcans, then ergo, therefore, Romulans can be black.

Or a very dark brown, actually.

And I know "ergo therefore" is redundant and repetitive, not to mention a repetition.

It also repeats itself. Just FYI.

It doesn't repeat itself as such, but it appears to be an unneccessary reiteration.

Perhaps Dan Gunther meant we saw the first black Vulcanoid...

Great episode and great trilogy! Kudos to the writers. One thing - I called the "secret ending" about a third of the way through the show. This trilogy does explain why the Vulcans of this era are such pricks though.

Loved Archer's use of the neck pinch!

Two things - If Arev/Syran knew where the Kir'Shara was, why didn't he get it himself? T'Pau said they had been looking for 2 years.

And how does a Vulcan-Andorrian war help the Romulans with reunification? Granted a war would destabilize the region and possibly draw everyone into war. What do we know of Romulan intentions as this point? Are they militaristic and aggressive or introspective?

BTW: I thought the whole reunification plan on TNG was $TUPID! Invade a planet in the heart of the Federation with no supply lines knowing they would be defeated eventually. What did the Romulans hope gain by this? I know its off topic, but I just wanted to sound off.

Are there black Romulans?

What about the one who replaced Geordi at the conference in The Mind's Eye after he was captured by Sela?

John D: Are there black Romulans?

What about the one who replaced Geordi at the conference in The Mind's Eye after he was captured by Sela?

There's him, and the one we see in Pegasus (TNG)

Sirol.

And while we can presume the one in The Mind's Eye(TNG) black, it's possible that they just chose the best operative they had, and that they modified his skin tone, much as Crusher did for Data in Reunification part I(TNG).

Re the too early shaking Vulcans earlier: I thought that was the lirpas straining to get out of their hands towards the rock desposits before the light show started.

I really enjoyed this arc, although I am slightly ashamed to say I didn't predict the Romulan connexion (I must be getting old). The battle scenes between the Vulcan and Andorian fleets were excellent, in particular, and it was interesting to see a new side to Soval.

1800 years old Vulcan holography: Judging by the previous episode, the Time of Awakening was punctuated by a nuclear holocaust and winter. Presumably this set back progress a while. So the Vulcans had advanced tech 1800 years ago (including warp flight, so the Romulans can escape and go to Romulus) but then lost it in the nuclear armageddon and had to rebuild before regaining it. We know that they had regained warp flight by 1950 from 'Carbon Creek'.

Personally, I'd just like to know why all female Romulans have bowl cuts in the TNG/DS9 era, seeing as there was at least one Romulan woman with long hair in TOS. I guess we just don't get to see any of them...

Same reason most of the Vulcan females of TNG and ENT era have Beatles mop top cuts when in the TOS era they had long hair as well.

>>>By Trike on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 12:32 am:

-- It was a big part of the middle chapter that Archer had to be the one to bring the kir'shara to the Vulcan people. But it never became evident why. In the end, it still seemed like happenstance -- only because Archer was closest when Syran died -- and not because only an outsider could awaken the people.<<<

No one could accuse Archer of having created the device to further his own agenda. If the Syrinites had handed this over then it could have been argued that they had either created the device or had tampered with it to conform with their teachings.
No one could accuse Archer of having done this as not only would he have no knowledge of Syrinite teachings (since he's human and at best is only going to know about the official version of Suraks teachings) but he doesn't know the Vulcan language - not what was spoken 1800 years before anyway.

One more thing about V'Las - Was it ever established if he was actually a Romulan pretending to be a Vulcan, or a real Vulcan working for the Romulans? (If the latter, he's a bit hypocritical accusing T'Pol of treason!)

Now, I know this isn't canon, but I remember a passage from a TNG novel, which had Data revealing that a minor character was actually a surgically altered Romulan, due to the fact that Romulans have an extra small bone in their hands, which is absent in Vulcans. Can anyone confirm this?

V'Las might have been a Romulan operative.

Vulcan would be the one place a Romulan would have an easier time establishing a cover.