I have to say that it started with Voyager and continued with Enterprise. Both shows started with a good premise but the writers didn't seem to believe in the premise (as Ron Moore has said). I agree with these comments on www.jumptheshark.com:

“The most frustrating thing about 'Enterprise' is, unlike most of the unmitigated cr*p on TV, there is material here for a good show. It's production values are top-notch and the actors (including Scott Bakula) are all actually quite good. There's a wealth of story lines to explore with the whole birth of the Federation thing. The premise is just waiting to be mined. And yet, with all this to work with, the show is still a big, fat zero. It's boring. Flat. Repetitive and completely lacking in imagination. And the fault lies entirely at the feet of the Star Trek producers and writers. After 30 years and five series, they've completely exhausted themselves. They're unable to tell a remotely original story anymore. With a few exceptions, every Enterprise script is just a rehash of a Next Generation or DS9 plot with the names changed and serial numbers filed off. The same could be said about Voyager, to some extent, though at least they did their best to LOOK original. Memo to Rick Berman: IT'S TIME TO STOP. Star Trek, at least the version of it being peddled now, is dead. Burned out. A ghost of it's former self. Maybe after another twenty year rest it can be revived again, but in the meantime, it needs to end. It's sad that such a successful pop culture phenomenon is going out with a whimper.”

“It looks like they are using the same writers for Voyager, but forgot to tell them that is is a new show, one set 300 years earlier. We already have Klingons, cloaking devices, holodecks, evil menacing "Romulans" from the future, shape changing aliens threatening the Earth (probably from some other quadrant only accessible through a point in Cardassian space), an entire Galactic Civilization only a few days travel at the "slow" speed of Warp 4 that has shown no interest in visiting, trading, conquering Earth, even the evil, faceless ones who might want to harvest our lymph node fluids. The show does not have the feel of being a predecessor to Star Trek, The Original Series, it has the feel of being set on a backwater colony planet 6 months after the disappearance of Voyager. I expect that before too long, we will see the Borg, Q, Ferengi, Cardassians, Delta Quadrant, Romulans, the alien parasite that lived in the human on DS9, time travel to make use of leftovers from Voyager with guest stars (LaForge tweaking the warp coils so they can go Warp 5.5 and get out of that weeks tough spot), Data's younger "evil" brother since they never gave a date when he was built - and if they did - so what - details never have bothered them in the past. There is so much they could have done with the series, however, I get the feeling the writers have never seen the original, just TNG, DS9 and Voyager, nor care for any kind of continuity. At least the captain has hair.”

“Despite the producers and writers apparently complete lack of knowledge of the Star Trek universe and the continuity established for it, this show had promise through it's first season. Unfortunately the writers also failed to learn from the weakest episodes of its forebears. Most ST:TOS episodes dealing with teim travel were weak; ST:TNG went even further with the subject, those episodes were among it's weakest, and there were all too many of them. But this season on Enterprise it seems every other episode involves time travel of some sort to some degree. Captain Archer and company have jumped the galactic shark.”

NANJAO, and slightly OT. On the "Happy Days" reunion special last night, they paid tribute to "Jumping the Shark", since they were the origin of the term.

I'm not prepared to take anything seriously said about Star Trek by someone who refers to 'the alien parasite in the human on DS9'. Must be spot-blind or something...

I think "Star Trek: Nemesis" was the nail in "Star Trek"'s coffin.


"He disappointeth the devices of the crafty, so that their hands cannot perform their Enterprise." Job 5:12

I guess the Hebrew word that is translated as 'crafty' isn't exact...would you call B&B crafty?

It jumped the shark with the one-two punch of ST Generations and Voyager.

I think I'll concur with that. First Contact was a last gasp of breath, but after that, sharkbait.

Star Trek jumped the shark with the creation of UPN as a broadcast network. ( The Trek shows should never have coexisted either. ) Back in the 70's they planned a 4th Network and then scrapped it. If they had gone through with it, they might be in the shape FOX is in today. They waited while FOX and the WB ate up all the decent affiliates and by the time they came to the table all that was left was a bunch of low-end UHF channels that barely covered part of the country. Rather than launch a broadcast network, they should have gone for a Paramount Cable Channel and flood it with their old and new productions.

Unimatrix Zero (VOY). The second they thought of that, it was gone.

LOL- Thande. No, I wouldn't say that B&B are 'crafty'. But Gene Roddenberry sure enough was! And B&B sure enough disappointed Gene!

I read in the paper today that Enterprise is in its last season. Although I enjoyed watching it, it didn't seem to go anywhere with me. I can't honestly say I will miss it.

B&B wrote a lot of fan favorite episodes. Conversely, Gene Roddenberry tends to get all the credit for Trek, to the exclusion of people like Gene Coon, D.C. Fontana, etc. I mean, of the few episodes Gene himself wrote, do any of them feature on favorites lists?

You have a point, Luigi. Some people are just grand ideas men and do not sink to the petty plateaux of actually writing watchable episodes.

I am getting seriously annoyed at how much of what happens to television is dependent on the USA's bizarre TV system (I'll admit that I'm mostly annoyed because I don't understand it. ). What's the difference between syndicated and unsyndicated again?

Can we get back on the topic here? This isn't a discussion about syndication.

I think Star Trek jumped the shark with Enterprise. I use to think the last couple of seasons of Voyager were sending Star Trek down the tubes, but compaired to Enterprise, the last seasons of Voyager are as golden as the first two seasons of The Oringial Series!

I think the issue here is a lot of people are "Treked Out".

I remember since even Voyager's early days (it started Ten (!) years ago now, so this problem's been arround for some time) hearing explanations that one of the reasons the show did poorly ratings wise was because people were "treked out".

I admit that I've enjoyed Enterprise. Yes, its had poor episodes but every TV show has poor episodes.

I think that one of the reasons DS9 did well was because the premice was diffrent. I think they could have had an 8th season and done all right. Yes, that would have meant the finale would have needed re-working but I always felt DS9's story needed another season or two.

IMO, the problem with Enterprise wasen't as much continuity as much as it was more of the same that we saw from Voyager or TNG.

A prequel series is an interesting idea although the main problem with it is (IMO) that they're not boldy going where no one has gone before; they're going where other captains have already gone. I think this was why we saw them introducing new alien species that we haden't of seen before. Yes it's plausable that with all the species in the federation that there must be all sorts not mentioned on the previous series but looking at reactions to seeing these other species, it seems a lot of people just didn't buy it.

I think the Xindi arc is what killed Enterprise. While I enjoyed it, I do admit that dedicating an entire season to it was too much. A serialised type of format may have worked for DS9, but it was just too much IMO for a show like Enterprise where self contained shows seem more the norm.

Let's face it, a major event such as the Xindi war/incident, especially with such a species being so close to Earth (well, in TNG and beyond terms anyway) and no one has ever mentioned them? Yes, again it's possible but again, I just don't think fans were willing to believe it. Such an arc may have worked better in a show set after Voyager and Nemesis.

Bottom line was, although I did enjoy the series, I do understand why so many fans had problems with it. I think the best thing we can do is learn from what went wrong with Enterprise so the next series will hopefully fare better.

When did Trek jump the shark? The answer can be summed up in five words.

"Take the cheese to sickbay."

"Enterprise" jumped me and I ate it.

I'd say that it jumped when DS9 ended. Than all we were left with was Voyager's unfulilled potential, which was followed by Enterprise's unfufilled potential.

John-Boy: Can we get back on the topic here? This isn't a discussion about syndication.
Luigi Novi: Chill out, John. One single digression doesn't violate board standards, and doesn't stop you from continuing to discuss the board's main topic.

Thande, for info on American TV syndication, go here.

You are right Luigi Novi, it doesn't stop me from continuing to discuss the board's main topic!

Enterprise stinks, and should have been canceled along time ago!

Much better!

Common flaws with Voyager/Enterprise:

Good premise, bad execution of said premise

Too much time travel including time travel plots that made no sense

Bringing in familiar alien races even when it really contradicts the show’s central premise (i.e. Borg, Ferengi)

Almost total disregard for previous Star Trek continuity. – I saw more respect for continuity on sitcoms like Cheers, Frasier, Seinfeld, and The Simpsons.

Little or no character development

How were the appearances of the Ferengi and the Borg on Voyager contradictory to the show's premise? Now, the Klingons in Lineage, that's a different story.

It started with the teaser for Voyager's Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy; and it was largely straight south at warp speed from there.

Seasons 1 - 2 of Enterprise continued the descent, with ridgehead Klingons appearing _ages_ before their debut in STTMP and the Notorious Decon Gel Rubdown Scene (Oh, if only it COULD have been Fionnula Flanagan in that; Commander Jack@$$ would've worn boxing gloves), from the pilot; and the Gratuitous-Faceful-Of-Vulcan-Silicone Scene from Shadows Of P'Jem.

And then Harbinger aired.

How were the appearances of the Ferengi and the Borg on Voyager contradictory to the show's premise? Now, the Klingons in Lineage, that's a different story.

My Borg reference was mostly meant towards Enterprise. However, since you asked, I still think it is a valid point in that the whole way that show (Voyager) was promoted was that they were going to introduce NEW alien races and not rely on the familar ones since this starship was in an unfamilar region of space (at least to StarFleet).

Actually, the Ferengi on Voyager was a one-shot deal. And IMO, it was well done (other than Janeway's no-we-can't-go-home-because-it-wouldn't-be-right attitude). It was also a nice continuity nod from TNG (was it "The Price"?).

I believe it had been established that the Borg lived in the DQ before Voyager, but what was unforgivable was what the Killer B's *DID* to to the Borg. They turned an implacable, unstoppable enemy into a bunch of whiny wimps.

As for the Klingons, I didn't really see much of that ep, so I couldn't tell you one way or the other.

I agree that the Ferengi shouldn't have been on ENT, nor the Borg, though at least the way they brought the Borg was reasonable. However, the Borg episode caused many many more continuity errors -- why didn't they use Denobulans to fight the Borg in TNG? Why didn't they use Phlox's "cure"?, etc....

Yes. It was "The Price".

I'll never forget it.

It was the episode where that greasy slimeball had his hands on
MY WOMAN....Deanna Troi!

GRRR!!!

HANDS OFF, SHE'S MINE!

Note to self: Never mention episodes where Troi has a relationship... at least don't mention them where John A. Lang can hear/read it!

Saying when Trek as a whole jumped the shark is difficult, but I'd have to agree with those who said that it was when (a) Voyager premiered and (b) Next Gen went to movies. NOTHING Trek has done since that point (with the exception of the rest of DS9) was really as good as what had been done formerly.

(And I would be remiss if I didn't point out that these two ventures marked the consolidation of Rick Berman's power over the franchise. Not a coincidence.)

I believe it had been established that the Borg lived in the DQ before Voyager, but what was unforgivable was what the Killer B's *DID* to to the Borg. They turned an implacable, unstoppable enemy into a bunch of whiny wimps.

Wasn't the TNG movie First Contact the first time that was established? Also, wasn't that really the first time the Borg were turned from "an implacable, unstoppable enemy into a bunch of whiny wimps"? Doesn't anyone else think the Borg cube was too easily destroyed? When did a Borg cube become the Death Star where all you have to do is hit in the right spot?

I can tell you exactly when it all went wrong. It was TNG: the episode "The Next Phase" It was all down hill from there. It was at this point that the plot simply became a vehicle to carry the fx, action, and techno-babble.
Go watch this episode again. Did it make any sense? ANY sense at all??? Then go look at the episodes that came after it and you'll see what I mean.
Tho clearly not the start. It was with this episode that common sense and continuity was banished for being obstructive. Sure it had some stinkers before this (cause and effect) and a few stars after (Inner Light, a lot of DS9) but here is were it became the norm.
This is the point were Star Trek got moved from the Drama to the Action section.

Steve, Descent part I first established that the Borg came from the Delta Quadrant.

Adam, what about The Inner Light? That's my favorite TNG episode, and it came right after The Next Phase. Other good post-Next Phase eps that I liked include Relics, A Fistful of Datas, Ship in a Bottle, Face of the Enemy, Tapestry, Starship Mine, Lessons, Timescape, Attached, Parallels, The Pegasus, Homeward, Lower Decks, Thine Own Self, and All Good Things....

I admit though, that the seventh season was one of the weakest seasons as a whole.

Am I the only one here who doesn't think Voyager was that bad? I think it was an interesting premise for a Star Trek show. It did have some problems, like the lack of character development (Chakotay and Harry really got ripped off in this way), overuse of the Borg, lame villians in Sideshow Bob, oops, Kazon, and the fact that after 7 of 9 came on board, Voyager became The 7 of 9 Show. (That was difficult for me to say due to the fact that as a heterosexual male, I LOVED watching Jeri Ryan).

Voyager had some good episodes, and the premise was good. I did enjoy watching the show, but in my opinion, DS9 was better. And I do think that Babylon 5 did influence DS9.

When was the shark jumped? I don't know. STV BLEW, but STVI redeemed the movie franchise. I don't think they needed to kill Picard's family and destroy the Enterprise D.

With respect to Enterprise, I have no problems with the actors. I do think the writing staff needs help though.

Yes, its premise was good, but it was not executed well, and the show was never true to that premise as a whole.

And yes, it had some good episodes. I've listed my favorites.

Apparently Berman & Braga are now blaming 'traitorous' Trekkies for the failure of Enterprise (have they no shame?! )

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/vi...ticle/9549.html

Thande that link doesn't seem to be working. I keep getting a message saying, "The requested resource (/startrek/vi...ticle/9549.html) is not available."

Live long and prosper.

Darn, it must have updated or something,

I'd sure like to know HOW Trekkies are to blame for "The Killer B's" lack of continuity, poor writing, lack of adventure, and episodes that are pure nonsense

B&B, we have been at your teat for the last several years. Time to get weaned...

Ugh... there's an image I could do without...

You have GOT to be kidding about the Killer B's blaming us.....

John Lang nailed it 3 messages up.

That's strange...there's an article by Manny Coto in that place now...I'll reproduce it here because I think it's quite relevant (AND FULL OF SPOILERS!!!

Manny Coto Reflects on Season 4


The day before the announcement of the cancellation of Star Trek: Enterprise, we talked with Manny Coto about the excellent fourth season and what we can expect to see in the lead up to the show's finale in May.
What can we reveal about the last few remaining shows to go into production, and/or the finale?

I'd rather hold off on the finale. Rick Berman and Brannon Braga are writing it and if they want to spoil it I'd rather have them spoil it themselves! But I will say that it does not involve time travel. That's as much as I will say. And, it's a very cool story.

After we spent this season going to Andoria, Vulcan, seeing the Tellarites, the Romulans ? the last two episodes before the finale bring us back to Earth. The first episode, "Demons," refers to our own personal demons. Humanity is having one last hurdle to overcome in forming the Federation, in fact we find that the last hurdle isn't going to come from Romulans, it isn't going to come from Klingons, it comes from our own last vestiges of intolerance. There is a charismatic leader on Earth, who is opposed to the forming of the Federation, who is a student of history and is taking his lessons from Colonel Green, who will be played by Peter Weller. Who, by the way, is perfect for this part.

When did you realize that the fourth season was going to be the one where you would have more creative control, and thus be able to do more tie-ins with the Original Series era aliens and plot lines?

I think I realized it fairly early on. I was on the show when Season 4 got picked up, and Rick and Brannon brought me in and said, you're going to be running the writing staff, which also means I'm the one coming up with stories.

And they were O.K. with the new direction?

Oh yeah, they were excited. They were very supportive and a lot of great ideas for this season actually came from them as well. They weren't just sitting back listening to what I was saying, they were throwing ideas out and enhancing the stuff [the writing staff] came up with.

How successul, creatively, do you feel this season has been?

It's hard to say. It's a different year. I'm not sure it's better than Season 3. I love Season 3, and I really love Season 1. I guess the only season I can say it's definitely better than is Season 2! But it's a different season and it goes in a different direction, which I think is more fun. The show has taken a different turn and I think it's not the same show you watched last season. It has different elements. As far as being better, I'm not so sure. But it's been the most fun for me because, creatively, it's really more what I would like to do.

Are there any storylines you weren't able to fit in this year?

There was one I really wanted to do set on Stratos, the Cloud City [from "The Cloud Minders"]. I really wanted to do a two-parter on that location, to see Stratos in its earlier stages. That was a wonderful location and wonderful setting for a great two-parter. I also wanted to do an episode about the foundation of the first starbase — we would have called it "Starbase 1." It would have been really interesting to see the origins of a starbase.

Fortunately, we were able to get the Gorn and the Tholians in when we came up with the mirror universe concept (for "In a Mirror, Darkly") and realized we could get these in without violating continuity, which is working out real well.

So far, what do you feel are some of the high points of Season 4?

I like first episodes of all the arcs. I love "Borderland," I love "The Forge" (one of my favorite episodes of the season) and I love "Babel One." I'm really happy with every episode. There's only one episode that I'm less happy with, "Daedalus." But most everything in Season 4 I'm really proud of.

"Daedalus" is very good TOS-type story, even though you have your reservations.

Some people loved it. I felt the episode was lacking in energy, it was slow paced. I felt that there were some choices, directorially, that made it a little distant and hard to get into. I just found the episode a little cold, not warm and involving. But again, that's my assessment. It was meant to be a more introspective episode. [It followed two, three-episode story arcs.]

"Home" seemed reminiscent of episodes like TNG's "Family." Was that a conscious choice, to take stock, to show the crew in a different light after the heaviness of Season 3's storyline?

Yes, very much so. We'd just spent a whole year out in the Expanse and before we got into the 'adventure' episodes, I thought the crew needed to decompress and take stock of themselves and assess what the impact of the Xindi arc was. And that's the genesis of "Home." Which brings us back around to the last two episodes ["Demons" and "Terra Prime"]; the setup in "Home" was kind of the aftermath of Xindi xenophobia that grew up out of it, and that's paying off later. So the season makes a full circle.

How did you feel the Arik Soong story arc ("Borderland," "Cold Station 12," "The Augments") turned out?

I was delighted. Brent Spiner's performance was terrific, and I loved the Orions, the Klingons, and Alec Newman, who played the lead Augment, was terrific as well.

From a fan's point of view, this has been one of the most exciting seasons for the show. Is it frustrating knowing that this may be the final season?

We all went in knowing that getting a fifth season was going to be difficult, so it wasn't like it was unexpected. But it's frustrating because we've just started this whole direction. I almost feel like this season was a shakedown for this new direction, in a strange way. And [if we get] Season 5 we could go so much farther and have so much fun and do what we're doing this year, but times ten. And surpass ourselves, I think. That's what I would love to do with season 5.

One thing we haven't really seen a lot of on Enterprise are the classic Trek-style omnipotent beings. Is that a conscious choice, or is that just something that didn't come up?

It just didn't really come up. I would have loved to do a Trelane tie in, but that was very much a first contact situation [in TOS]. I try to avoid that. The omnipotent beings are hard to write because, well, they're omnipotent! They can be a little dull. The closest we came this year was with "Observer Effect," where we kind of had omnipotent beings with the Organians. That's probably as close as I want to get. I would have loved to try and tie in Trelane with Q. There's been speculation that Trelane and Q are the same. I think it would be fun to try to find some kind of tie in to show us that Trelane is a "baby Q" or something.

"Observer Effect," for a bottle show, was actually very good. Do you feel that a bottle show (a budget buster that scales back on sets and guest stars) actually means the show must rely more on good dialogue than special effects?

Yes. Very often the bottle shows come out best. "Similitude" was a bottle show, essentially. Bottle shows are often the ones that force you to really focus in on the characters. One the other hand, "Babel One" was not a bottle show, and it's terrific! You get different things from different episodes.

Tell us a bit about the genesis of the Mike Sussman-penned "In a Mirror, Darkly."

What Mike wanted to do was the Defiant angle, the mirror universe was my idea. We'd wanted to do a mirror universe episode the whole season. One of the major, fun tie-ins for the season was going to be a mirror universe episode. In fact, I was going to try and work in the mirror universe in "Storm Front." I wanted to work "Storm Front" as the genesis of the mirror universe. I was trying, but I couldn't get it work. Then, later on in the season we kept struggling for a mirror universe episode and I remember talking to Mike Sussman, and Mike's concern, rightly so, was that in the Original Series, the mirror universe was our first contact. So, to have our characters beam over to the mirror universe would be fudging the history and making it a situation where they have to forget about it or some silly thing like that. And then I hit upon the idea of, what if there is no cross over? What if we just did two episodes in the mirror universe (it was originally one episode) and just treat it as if it's a whole mirror universe episode. That's when it took off, and I came up with the idea of doing the opening with the tie in to First Contact, and then the new credit sequence.

Now Mike had always wanted to get the Defiant in an episode. Mike had pitched the Defiant and the Tholians. When he had originally pitched it, the Defiant was something that had already been captured by the mirror universe, by the Terran Empire, and they were reverse engineering it. The problem was that it just felt like an extraneous element to the story, like a backstory. Then Mike hit upon the idea of not making it something they had already done, but making it the goal of the episode. The Tholians had pulled it through from our universe and Archer's mission was to go find it. Once he came up with that the whole two-parter came into play. That became the mission, to get the Defiant, and it's a brilliant concept. Two of the best scripts Mike has written. Don't look for deep mythological implications. These are pure fun character pieces with the actors playing characters that are completely opposite to themselves. It's a two-episode romp that is just delightful.


How did you feel seeing the Defiant bridge set for the first time? Seeing this Constitution-class bridge recreated in such stunning detail?

Oh, it was just nostalgia, you know, where your heart leaps into your throat. And awe at how beautiful it was. It's a beautiful, beautiful set and very well constructed. I was even more delighted when I saw it on film. One of our concerns was that the Enterprise [NX-01] set, built in 2001, looked more high tech than the original '60s sets, which were more flat and black. But, if you look at it, the '60s sets look more futuristic because they're so different, so sleek and so colorful. They really do look more futuristic. And that was the great relief and delight -- that it doesn't look like we're stepping back in time. It looks like they are going forward. The primary colors, the colored buttons look very pretty, they just just pop. It looks like a whole different era.

Were you tempted to don a red shirt and portray a dead crewman, like Mike Sussman did?

No, I left that for Mike. But I sat in the captain's chair and got some photos of myself and the cast. I couldn't resist that one!

Any other TOS aliens you would like to use? How will the Gorn turn out?

The design is very cool. We have some great CGI guys, who did a great job with the sehlat on "The Forge." I'm hoping we get the same result with the Gorn. I'm sure it will turn out great. It will look somewhat like the Gorn that we know, but with a couple more improvements in the makeup. Just a little more detailed and believable. It won't look like a guy in a suit; neither will it deviate too far from the original design. Same with the Tholians.

"The Forge" was quite epic in scope. Was there anything you wanted to do here, but were limited by budget?

Originally, I wanted to actually see a battle in the desert with Vulcan armies. It may not have fit, story wise, but it was something I wanted to push for. It just wasn't doable. That's really the one thing we pulled back on. We can't [afford to] go out in the desert very often. We did a pretty good job considering what we had. We made it feel sweeping, with some choice visual effects.


What about the Klingon forehead story arc, and the remaining shows?

The two Klingon forehead arc stories ("Affliction" and "Divergence") came out tremendously. I don't want to give away the episode, but the episodes tie in to the Augments trilogy. If you remember at the end of the Augments you had a Klingon ship (that's not completely destroyed) being piloted by augments over the Klingon world. We purposely showed the ship being halfway battered, cracked in half. The Klingons are very interested in these augments, two of which defeated the entire crew of a Klingon bird of prey. So they want to apply this kind of superpower strength themselves, and that's what leads to trouble.

"Bound" is a standalone episode. We saw so little of the Orion Slave girl in "Borderland" that I wanted to do a whole episode where we see more of them and have some fun with them. The Orions are a major part of this episode, but it's really an episode about Trip and T'Pol. Bound is a double meaning: not only the slaves, but Trip and T'Pol, we find, are also 'bound.' Also in this episode, we learn something about the Orions, about the structure of their society. Very interesting. And we got to do a dance sequence. We had a top choreographer come in and choreograph a really great dance on an Orion barge. It's going to be terrific.

"Demons" and "Terra Prime" are the two next-to-last episodes before the season finale on March 13. Please check your local listings for times in your area.

HK: Am I the only one here who doesn't think Voyager was that bad? I think it was an interesting premise for a Star Trek show. It did have some problems, like the lack of character development (Chakotay and Harry really got ripped off in this way), overuse of the Borg, lame villians in Sideshow Bob, oops, Kazon, and the fact that after 7 of 9 came on board, Voyager became The 7 of 9 Show. (That was difficult for me to say due to the fact that as a heterosexual male, I LOVED watching Jeri Ryan).


Harvey, you named them all. And that's why Voyager sucked!

Seriously, the premise was fine. The problem was the characters. I didn't find a single one of them lovable. Janeway was a piece of •••• compared to Kirk, Picard, or Sisko. Chakotay was a blank slate, Paris and Neelix were annoying, 7 of 9 was a rehash of Data/Spock/Odo and a ridiculous grab for ratings, Picardo was smarmy and couldn't deliver a line without making me cringe, B'Elanna was pointless....etc. I couldn't stomach the characters.

I though Seven, despite being conceived with sextual overtones, was a well-written character, a worthy addition to the "Outisder Observer of Humanity" Club of Spock, Data and Odo. I also thought the EMH was a well-written character, though poorly written in terms of his status as a hologram.

"Time's Arrow": How on Earth could you top this episode and all that came before it?

Of course, the problem is, that a Shark moment is supposed to be self evident. The Moment when I knew Star Trek was on it's way out was when Voyager gave up on it's own villians, imported the Borg, and added the Queen of Mary Sue's, 7 O'9. That moment said to me that the creators weren't interested in quality science fiction (The Borg, while cool beyond belief, had been played out, their storyline began with their introduction as a lethal opponent in "Q-Who," they played out their reign of destruction in BOBW, and it was concluded in "I Borg" where their nature was investigated and "Descent" ran it into the ground. They recieved their own film, which also rehashed every element concerning the Borg. They assimilate people and technology, they have a hive mind, they seek perfection. We get it.) anymore, but were rather interested in higher ratings. So Scorpion, Part II.

There are some possible, but lame, excuses for some of the problems with previous series, but Enterprise...
They dropped the Sulibon stuff, they don't tell us what Future Guy was, they ended the Temporal Cold War badly, they didn't tell us interesting things about the aliens we saw in TOS much, they ignored real stars in the vicinity of Earth, they ignored distances between stars and they dropped the idea of having any communications problems with aliens, the aliens were just humans in funny costumes.
And then they mention the star Rigel. Now it could be a Klingon name that just happens to sound the same, but I don't suppose the writers thought of that. Besides, when T'Pol mentions Rigel, Archer doesn't seem to have heard of it. He doesn't ask her, "Do you mean Beta Orionis?"
That's all for now.

After the Premiere of Enterprise... none of the other episodes matched up to the potential of the pilot. (with a few 3rd and 4th season exceptions)

No, I think we all knew Trek lost something long before Enterprise aired. For pratical reasons, I blame it on UPN, and Trek becoming a network show. However, Shark moments are supposed known at the time, not a matter of hindsight.

Enterprise is the ONLY Trek series that I have not watched the majority of episodes of. I've probably seen around 12-15 episodes, and most were from the first two seasons.

I may be in the minority, but I don't believe Trek jumped the shark with Voyager. It definitely did with Enterprise, however.

I did not like the premise for Enterprise since the show was first announced, and I remain surprised that it even lasted past one season.

What I think killed Enterprise was the blatant disregard for established Trek continuity (ie, the episode where T'pol tells about the Vulcan ship crashing in Pennsylvania in the 1950's and the crew hiding among the Amish and the episodes with Klingons. And don't even get me started on the Borg!).

In fact, I think Enterprise should either be completely disregarded as canon.

I'd like to see another Trek series someday, but one with a decent premise. A prequel series to TOS featuring Spock and Kirk in their Academy days....heck, ANY series using TOS characters or set at Starfleet Academy....would stink.

The best thing in my opinion, would be to do a series that isn't set in the same time period as TNG\DS9\Voyager.....and don't use the Borg at all!

A series set between TOS and TNG would be interesting, but fans would complain if none of the living TOS actors appeared, and I wouldn't want to see Sulu or Chekov as a regular character.

You are not in the minority about Voyager.

And I agree with with everything you mentioned except I think a Captain Sulu and the Excelsior series would be great!

I gotta say Voyager was the take off ramp and Enterprise the landing ramp for Trek to jump the shark. If we had had one or the other and a good show that was done properly then things might not have been too bad, but with the two of them together it was just way too much too bad.

Voyager was a good concept, neat idea combining emotional struggles so far from home, survival in a harsh land all alone with no hope of backup or help from home and with the possibility of strong moral and ethical stories as the starfleet officers try to maintain their code of standards while dealing with the Maquis and anything else they encounter in the DQ.

Instead we get a ship that looks showroom new from begining to end, endless torpedos and shuttles and no shortage of energy unless the episode required it (except when the holodeck was useful) while the crew integrated and worked as good as anything from the academy with no psychological problems.

Enterprise was just way wrong and totally did not grip me. The only ones I watched I clicked off after a few minutes ,except the mirror universe ones. I liked those as that at least was closer to the way thigns should have been show wise, as this was not the future history that should have been (Yes I am a TOS bigot wah!) as Kirk and Co. had written. I mean I consider TAS to be more canon than Enterprise. Especially if it wasn't good enough for the Name Star Trek to be proudly heralded above the main title.

And I think a show set in the interval between TOS and TNG would be good and effective if done properly. There are a lot of stories to go around like why the romulans went back across the DMZ or how the rest of the fleet was doing after the Enterprise retired or a whole new voyages of exploration and discovery. And an occasional appearance by Captain Checkov or Captain Sulu or whatever or whoever they could find would not be unwelcome to me.

If they had to do a TNG era I'd like to see somethign along the New frontiers or to ignore the Voyager series entirely.

They have to ignore it, otherwise the fleet all has future armor and weapons. they can't use the excuse that it takes time to study the tech seeing how Voyager did it (quickly) and with limited resources.

Exactly. Of course the whole taking alien tech and integrating it into the federation tech in a short amount of time is rather common in trek. Going back to the Romulan cloaking device in TOS. Although that was Scotty! who did that. :-)

I was really excited for Voyager when I saw the opening credit sequence. Unfortunately, it rarely if ever lived up to its premise. My first inkling that something was wrong was when they had a hillbilly hoedown in the very first episode. Definitely not a scene that has any place in science-fiction.

The problem with Voyager is that it should have changed more than it did. The culture, the lack of supplies, etc. Like the Diseased episode. oh, and it used the reset button too much, oh 1 more! oh wait, never mind...

Also, regarding the cloaking tech from the Romulan's, well its still plausible that it isn't used because of the Treaty.

I'm guessing Section 31 had that old cloak ;)

Yah the word stagnant comes to mind when thinking about the entire series of Voyager. A giant stagnant pond of a series with a few bright flowers poking up through it.

Well in the RPGs (FASA especially) they said that the cloak burned out the shields after the episode and it took the federation a while to figure it out meanwhile the romulans had worked on the second generation of the cloak and sensors and the cloak/sensor race was on.

As for canon I'll go with sec 31 having it but the feds not "officially" using it thanks to the treaty.

Hey a hoedown could have a place in scifi. I mean a hoedown is real fun place to be. Can you imagine Picard and Co at a hoedown. Then again a Klingon drinking moonshine around shotguns and fiddles. Not a pretty picture.

Didn't Worf smash a mandolin... its sort of like a fiddle...

A mandolin is closer to a lute. It's not played with a bow.

Yeah he did in the Qpid episode. Sort of a homage to the Animal house scene when Bluto smashes the guitar. (Would have been cooler if Worf would have done the whole eyebrow shrug thing too.) But yeah that was one of the things I thought about when I said that.

And yeah sorta kinda in a way in that they both have strings is a mandolin the same as a fiddle.

A mandolin is closer to a lute. It's not played with a bow.

At least it's stringed.

Sorry ScottN you got your post in while I was typing mine.

Yeah a fiddle and a lute/mandolin have very little in common besides being stringed and made out of wood. Pitch, style of play and general tone are way different. And they do different amounts of damage when you hit someone or somethign with them. (D&D bard reference)

R - my favorite D&D char is an AD&D 1st edition Bard. I've been playing him off and on for 20 something years now.

Star Trek WILL jump the shark, if main characters are ever portrayed as playing D&D and longing for the days when people went around swinging swords and believing in magic.

Well, that probably wouldn't be very good television.

How about if the main characters are protrayed as worried about whether they will upset/destroy a fictional Irish village?

Cool Scottn 1st ed still rocks. And 1st ed Bards are hard core. I always loved playing the barbarian or the cavalier though. I have a cavalier that I've played since the late 80s and have converted him to each of the current editions. Speaking of which I'm up to about ver 7.5 in my house rules for my world.

A show about the characters PLAYING D&D would be rather boring. Unless is was a KODT show. Maybe a holodeck or Q episode with the crew flung into a D&D universe or something would be different.....

ScottN:
How about if the main characters are protrayed as worried about whether they will upset/destroy a fictional Irish village?

Heh heh, yeah. Personally, I think that the second half of Enterprise was bringing Trek back from the abyss. But that's done now.

*cough*spirit folk*cough*