Hey all, I know this isn't strictly Enterprise-related, but I'm not aware of a general Trek sink (at least not one that people are using). SO I'll just post this here.

My friend from out-of-state and I were talking about the rumored Star Trek XI movie, and a question arose: why, exactly, do Berman & Braga hold the reins at Star Trek? Do they own the rights to the franchise? Do they have some kind of contract with Paramount that gives them exclusive rights to develop all new Trek shows and movies? I can't figure it out. Anybody know?

Berman and Mike Piller were just crew guys (Berman produced Farpoint, whilst Piller was a staff writer) during TNG, but when the execs at Paramount started moving Gene Roddenberry upstairs, they started being given his responsibilities. Berman and Piller then created DS9 - how much input GR had into that series is unknown, but I doubt it would go from concept to pilot in less than 12 months (GR died Nov 92 IIRC, Emissary was first broadcast about a year later).

Piller left round about season 3 of DS9 (went to Exec Producer of Legend in 1995 according to the IMDB) having helped create Voyager, and Braga (originally also a staff writer and the story editor on TNG) took his role in charge of the franchise.

But no, they don't own Star Trek, if anyone except Paramount do, it'll probably be Majel B-R.

I thought Ira Steven Behr created DS9.

I'm not certain of this, but I think Gene passed away in 1991.

If that's the case, then, why are B & B allowed to develop all new Trek, whether movies or TV? What gives them the right to do this?

Paramount/Viacom owns the rights to Trek, B & B work for Paramount and Paramount put them in charge of developing new Trek. If Paramount wanted to they could fire either of them and hire someone else to develope new trek, but they haven't yet.

Apparently, they should have fired them four years ago, and put Coto in charge back then.

And now we get an "appalling" series finale from B&B (n.b. this is Ms. Blalock's description, not mine).

BF: If Paramount wanted to they could fire either of them and hire someone else to develope new trek, but they haven't yet.

OK. But what's up with Paramount/Viacom then? Why were these two morons allowed to run a profitable franchise into the ground? I would think that a corporation would be more protective of a cash cow like Star Trek.

Harvey Kitzman: I thought Ira Steven Behr created DS9.

He actually didn't become an executive producer of DS9 until the third year.

Thanks for the input Josh.

I agree with Scott - put Coto in charge of the franchise.

Frankly, it's amazing that B/B have kept their jobs. Voyager's ratings, the box-office takes from "Insurrection" & "Nemesis," "Enterprise" being the first Trek since TOS (or was it TAS) to be cancelled....But who wants to bet that they're being given a hand in developing the next movie and any new franchises.

Case in point: look at box-office sales for Trek movies. Adjusted for inflation, we find that, of TNG films, only First Contact makes it into the upper 5. Insurrection and Nemesis fall down at #8 and #10, respectively. What does this say for Berman? Doesn't this, combined with the fact that Enterprise was cancelled, mandate that his stewarship of Trek be ended?

Just to be clear, Braga had nothing to do with the last two Star Trek movies.

It doesn't matter - Braga is still an idiot.

I concur - take the stewardship away from Berman. And smack the c r a p out of whoever gave the green light to Nemesis. As far as I am concerned, that movie never happened.

He's not all bad. First Contact was good.

Whats so bad about Nemesis?

As far as Im concered, Star Trek Enterprise never happened.

What's so bad about Nemesis?

How about a list?

1. Gross fakeo clone.
2. Brainless plot.
3. Starfleet LAND ROVERS.
4. Retarded Data-clone.
5. NO MORE DATA.

6: Dorky destruction of Schinzon's Weapon.(Data waiting until the countdown reaches "ONE")

7: Dorky Picard standing there like a mannequin while the weapon is counting down to deploy.

8. Dorky deployment of Schinzon's weapon. (too slow)

9: Dorky Romulan "help" (Sending only TWO SHIPS)

10: Dorky weapons supply. ("We are out of Photon Torpedoes", no mention of being out of Quantum Torpedoes)

11. Dorky damage ("Self-destruct is off-line")

12: Dorky navigation (Flying through the nebula instead of going around it...space is 3-dimensional, y'know!)

13. Theme of a main character experiencing doubt becase of the actions of a clone/doppelganger, and how those actions reflect upon him, which was not only done in both The Enemy Within(TOS), Time Squared(TNG), and Second Chances(TNG), but done better, with no new angle or take on the idea offered here.

14. A character that was not worthy to be the main villain of a picture, and whose motives and actions made no sense.

15. Major changes to the status quo regarding secondary characters being little more than footnotes, rather than as main or even partial focus of the story and theme.

16. Further attempts to shoehorn past characters into the story that have were otherwise depicted as having moved one, and in doing so, creating a sense of moving backwards with respect to the sense of closure that was provided by Journey's End and (parts of) What You Leave Behind(DS9).

17. Gigantic plot holes, like how once again, a small force (in this case, one badass-looking ship) is somehow depicted as enough of a threat to the entire Federation, and how once again, "only the Enterprise" can save the day.

18. Two words: Admiral. Janeway.

19. The Enterprise-E, once again. I never liked the ship. It's uglier than the D, inside and out, can barely hold its own in a fight despite its supposed superiority (I credit this to its being of the underpowered Sovereign-class), and we've never grown close to it as we did watching the D for seven years.

Snick: Well, there's plenty of letters left in the alphabet.

20. Riker fighting the Viceroy...ALONE. Where was everyone else? Napping?

21. Smashing the Ent-E into Schinzon's ship & missing vital areas...like Schinzon's "Death Weapon" so it can't deploy.

22. Bad continuity. During the "Violation", D. Troi is in her nightie. She then reports to Sick Bay in her uniform. I guess the "Violation" wasn't as traumatic as she described, otherwise she wouldn't take the time to get her uniform on first.

23. Picard's anxiety to get to Betazed & remove his clothes. Has he forgotten about Lwaxana Troi? Can you image her reaction on seeing Picard naked? He won't be able to make it off Betazed for months!

24. Smashing the Ent-E into Schinzon's ship without any regard for the inhabitants of the Saucer Section. (I heard NO "Evacuate the forward areas of the Saucer Section" command before it was executed)

25. After it is discovered that Schinzon has a W.M.D., no one thought of raising the shields BEFORE Picard was kidnapped...I mean, if Schinzon has a W.M.D, SURELY he plans on using it!

But when the execs at Paramount started moving Gene Roddenberry upstairs...
What did he mean by this? I understood that Roddenberry's health was beginning to fail in 1988, and because of that, he ceded control of TNG to Berman, beginning in the second season.
Gene Roddenberry died October 24, 1991. Deep Space Nine premiered in January, 1993.

From what ive read, Gene Roddenberry had NOTHING to do with the creation of Deep Space Nine. They told him about it, and he said "Go for it" or something like that. By that time his health was so bad he didn't give a •••• what they were doing with Star Trek.

He died before Star Trek 6 was released, thats why it says "For Gene Roddenberry" at the begining.

Thanks for listing all the problems with Nemesis. Quite frankly I have forgotten everythign about the movie and I WILL NOT be the special edition DVD. As far as I am concerned, the movie never happened.

You did forget one, though:

26. Lame attempt at a remake of The Wrath of Kahn, including the ending death scene.

27. Lame environments and settings, especially Romulus (not to mention the Romulan Senate), which looked better in Unification(TNG) and Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges(DS9).

28. No memorable dialogue.

29. Killing off Data without actually killing him off.

30. More ludicrous changes to established continuity, such as the bizarre picture of Picard's younger self featuring the Shinzon actor.

31. Cutesy "humour" as bad as or worse than Insurrection.

Josh, you could also list number 29 for Spock in The Wraith of Khan.

Now lets list why Star Trek Enterpise sucks!

1. Its boring

2. They complety disregard continuity on a regular basis.

3. They tried to substute sexy clothing for devolopment.

MOST IMPORTANT NIT OF "NEMESIS"...

32. Deanna Troi got married to Riker instead of John A. Lang

Adam, IIRC, it was more that the execs at Paramount decided that things would be better all round if Gene was moved upstairs away from day-to-day running, whether this was down to heath issues, the start of a silent coup, a genuine feeling that he could better serve production there or all three I don't know.

Anyway, TV series do not go from nothing to broadcast in 15 months, especially SF ones. I'll try and work a timeline off the DS9 guide when I get chance.

That's stuff I never heard before, Chris. Thanks for the update.
IIRC, Mr. Roddenberry did see Star Trek VI before his death, (at least a rough cut) and wanted considerable changes made (especially in regard to Kirk's attitude toward Klingons.) The changes were not made.

Josh, you could also list number 29 for Spock in The Wrath of Khan.

Except that Spock wasn't resurrected a few minutes after dying.

Concerning Roddenberry and Trek VI, my recollection is that he saw it, and said he liked it, but that he wasn't really well enough at the time to give much more feedback.

Josh, Data wasn't "resurrected" at all, "a few minutes later" as you say, Spock was. Im beging to think you havn't seen Nemesis at all.

If memory serves, Rick Berman and Michael Piller had started work on DS9 before the death of the Great Bird, but had not yet informed him of the project.

He hated all the films. His complaint about ST6 was that the conspiracy was completely unbecoming of a Starfleet officer, and the film was too dark.

From what I've read, they told him they were creating a new Star Trek series before he died.

Unless you worked for Star Trek, and/or Paramount in the early 1990's or know Rick and/or Michael personally, how could your "memory serve"?

Actually, I liked Nemesis. IMHO. Sure, it doesn't stand up to par with other even numbered Treks. I admit that I could have done without Wesley's cameo & the picture of a young Picard who was bald. Also, I believe Paramount released the rumor that Picard would die, and then had the actors go on Entertainment Tonight to say it wasn't true.

What's so good about Nemesis?

How about a list?

1. Awesome space battle.
2. Awesome explosion that took out main viewer.
3. Awesome ship crashing into another.
4. Good tension between hero & villian.
To be continued...

Josh, Data wasn't "resurrected" at all, "a few minutes later" as you say, Spock was.

Well, Data's memories were copied to another (cutesy/dumb) android which looked just like him. And the crew's reaction to his death was far weaker than his "deaths" in either The Most Toys or Time's Arrow.

Im beging to think you havn't seen Nemesis at all.

If only that were true!

I really don't see how Wesleys cameo could have bothered anyone since he just sat there and didn't say a ••••••• word! Talk about nitpicking!

Oh, Wesley's appearance didn't bother me, but Worf's definitely did - no plausible explanation of why he's there and not continuing as Federation Ambassador to the Klingon Empire.

yes i would have to agree with Worf's appearance. There was no explanation at all of why he was on the Enterprise and not on the Klingon home planet.

John Boy: I belive I read an interview, I think it was in either the Next Gen Companion, or the DS9 Companion, although the former is more probable. Maybe the Captian's Logs, I don't know. It's been years since I read either one, so it would be a matter of memory.

Wolf took off time from Targ Hunting to attend the two weddings of Riker and Troi.

Big deal. What is he doing functioning as a ship's officer?

Indeed, as ambassador, he would no longer be an active member of Starfleet (or even still a member at all).

Worf didnt resign as a member of Starfleet at the end of DS9, he became a Federation ambassador to the Klingon homeworld! That doesn't mean he wasn't still a member of Starfleet. Thats about the craziest statement ive heard!

I said he would no longer be an active member of Starfleet. And even if he was still in Starfleet, despite his current job as a Federation diplomat, his previous assignment was as Strategic Operations Officer on DS9 not an officer on the Enterprise.

I mean, at least in Star Trek III and IV, the regular cast came back together because they were operating outside of Starfleet, while Sulu got the Excelsior in STVI. Is it so wrong to make reference to establish continuity?

33. Mentioning the Dominion War without showing what happened afterward to the Federation-Romulan alliance.

34. The dinky Romulan Senate! (if mentioned before, it deserved to be mentioned again)

35. A supposedly suspenseful ride about the destruction of all life on Earth...and the Scimitar NEVER EVEN GETS NEAR EARTH!!!

36. Ramming is cool. Ramming which does absolutely no damage to the other ship while wrecking yours, on the other hand, is just absurd.

37. I don't like the design of the Romulan ships. They look like Klingon ships with a warbird head CGI glued on at the last minute.

38. Ultimately, far too many missed opportunities. The basic story idea wasn't THAT bad but the end result was about the worst possible imaginable from that starting point. See the Nemesis boards for how I and many, many other people came up with infinitely better treatments in ten minutes for free.

I find it hard to believe Earth was defenseless except for the Big E. After the Dominion War, Sector 001 would undoubtedly have rock-solid defenses and probably even an entire fleet nearby. If nothing else, all the damaged ships undergoing repairs in drydock could launch and make a good fight against a lone Reman dreadnaught.

Worf: Production Reasons. This is a Next Generation Film. Worf serves as tactical officer. That's also why the Romulans are still hostile, the Dominion War isn't referened. Movie TNG exists in a static universe. Cliched, sure. Inaccurate, given Worf's resume? No.

Except that First Contact makes it clear that Worf was from DS9, since he was commanding the Defiant.

Ah, but Matt, we're not nitpickers, we don't deal in reality. Worf has never been tactical officer on board the Enterprise-E much less assigned to it.

The Dominion War was in fact referenced during Nemesis but not in any way that explained the aftermath of the war. I mean, they didn't even try some sort of "Iron Curtain" explanation.

Worf: Production Reasons. This is a Next Generation Film. Worf serves as tactical officer.
Luigi Novi: He used to serve as tactical officer. Since going to DS9, he was promoted to Strategic Operations Officer, a position at which he served as third-in-command of the station, the second-highest ranking SF officer, and commanded the Defiant as its captain on many a mission. He eventually became an ambassador, a position which outranks a captain. Sticking him back not merely on the Enterprise, but as fourth-in-command back at Tactical, is a ridiculous step backward for the character. The idea that this makes sense because "This is a Next Generation Film" is ludicrous, IMO.

I agree with you Luigi, it is ludicrous. If Worf was there because of Riker and Troi's wedding and simply got caught up in the mission that unfolded before his return to the Klingon Homeworld, one line from anyone explaining that would have cleared all this up!

39. No Sela

40. No Tomalak

41. No Spock

42. No Q!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No bloody "A, B, C, or D!"

But it did have an "E"!

I wonder why the guy decided to create an adversary for Picard. We already saw him take on his two greatest adversaries from the show. The series ended with a confrontation with Q and it was spectacular. First Contact had Picard face his other great foe. We didn't need to see another one. After all, Kirk only faced Khan once. I guess this should go on the Nemesis board, but then again, nothing else is.

After all, Kirk only faced Khan once. - Josh M

When was that? "Space Seed" or STAR TREK II: The Wrath of Khan?

Live long and prosper.

He faced him once in "Space Seed" and once in Star Trek 2 The Wrath of Khan!

Yeah, I don't know what I was talking about. Kirk had plenty of adversaries during the movies. Khan, Kruge, Sybok, Chang, Soran. Though Khan was the only one with whom Kirk had had some history.

I have spoken to people on other forums who actually think Nemesis is the BEST TREK FILM!!!

8¬O

Is there a politer way of suggesting that someone must have had a frontal lobotomy?

I can understand it. I can't support it, but I can understand it.

Terik Q- 1. Awesome space battle.
So-so space battle. More actual maneuvering than most other depictions. Cool use of the phasers firing in all directions to find the cloaked Reman ship. Wise use of rolling to keep fresh shields toward the Remans. But better than the opening scene of First Contact? Better than the battles between the Dominion forces and the Federation/Klingon fleets? Not hardly.
2. Awesome explosion that took out main viewer.
Been done in Voyager, Janeway looked out a gaping hole in the bridge. Better explosion in The Undiscovered Country in which a torpedo blew through the entire saucer section of the Enterprise A.
3. Awesome ship crashing into another.
Been done before, the Enterprise D collided with the Brittain during a time loop. And have you ever seen a 35mph crash test video? The vehicle buckles all over. The Enterprise E has some front-end damage, but is otherwise intact. I would have expected a nacelle to snap off, or something nasty.
4. Good tension between hero & villian.
Well, the villain was tense. Picard seemed pretty cool in this one.

The Enterprise E has some front-end damage, but is otherwise intact.

Three Words: Structural Integrity Field.

See the non-canon J&GRS "Federation" for an explanation of starship ramming.

As for Terik Q's points 1-3, that's the Killer B's flaw. They are substituting cool FX for story and plot.

Luigi N: Who said it had to make sense? I agree, in the real world (read: continuing star trek series), Tactical would be manned by the head of security, who had grown into every bit as part of the crew as Worf did when he took over for Tasha Yar. Unfortuntely, this isn't the real world. This is not the continuing Voyages of the Starship Enterprise. This is an attempt to recreate TNG for a another film. I just chalk it into the "Why are these people still hanging out" box of nits.

The double B's just didn't get Star Trek.

I had another question and it goes as well here as anywhere...

How do people think the Dominion War story arc compares with the Xindi arc and the Sulibon arc?
I wasn't all that thrilled with the Dominion War arc but I did like a lot of things about DS9.
But there were so many things wrong with Enterprise series.
I was expecting a tie-in between the Sulibon and the Xindi; they left so many questions unanswered; they misused the time travel reset button so badly; it looked like a lot of other unpleasant war stories. It wasn't fun like TOS was.
There were some good things about Enterprise, and there were some interesting things about the Xindi, but not enough.
That's all I feel like saying about that for now.

I've noticed I've spent less time at nitcentral since they canceled "Enteprise". I know, there's lots of other discussion boards here, but there's so much else to do on the web...
I come back occasionally...

Why wasn't the Romulan Wars used for the 3rd season instead of the idiotic Xindi arc?

The show might've lasted a few more seasons if it did.

Because B&B were involved heavily in the writing process and committed the show to the beginning of its death...

Now it's 7/7/07 at 7:07 pm! Central time.

My excuse for mentioning this is whether they acknowledge stardates like 7777.7 or 1234.5 and such in Trek. They oughta.

Naw, 4077.7 should be a great stardate time for a party!

Wikipedia has a list of running gags, which includes one for ST:Enterprise. Supposedly, whenever the crew mentions Earth, the aliens say, "Earth? Never heard of it."
I can't think of one single time that happens, can you?
Can you provide a list of times it happens?

And while we're at it, what are some of the other running gags of the various series?

"I'm a doctor, not a..."

Data misunderstanding something about human behavior or colloquialisms.