We've all heard the great famous works of classical music, such as Wagner's "Ride of the Helicopters from Apocalypse Now", Puccini's "World Cup 90 theme" as performed by that Italian centre-forward Luciano Pavarotti, Richard Strauss's "Opening From 2001", and of course Carl Orff's "Old Spice Ad".

I jest, of course, but it made me wonder. Has popular culture been so great an influence, especially in the using of classical music to promote a brand or remind one of a recent event, that we've lost the meaning of that work, or can no longer associate that work to its original context?

On a similar vein, with the likes of Vanessa Mae and Russel Watson, and of course Bond and the Mediaeval Babes, are people trying too hard to popularise classica music today?

It's your shout.

???lertainly, yes, pop culture has caused the true meaning of a lot of works to be lost in the quest to find a good cigarette ad jingle. This can be good, bad, or neutral. I, for instance, find it kind of sad that Bach's "Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor" is now the de facto scary background music, as I never thought it was frightening in the first place. Big and grand and awe-inspiring, yes, but not frightening in the Dracula sense. So I'd say that the pop-culturization is only really harmful when it distorts or causes people to forget the original meaning of the piece.

I don't think that Vanessa Mae falls into that category, though. She just performs her own interpretation of the music, telling us what she thinks of it. It's a nice change of pace. (Also, there's the question over whether anyone who didn't already like classical music would listen to her stuff in the first place.)

A lot of music critics have frowned upon the likes of Bond (dubbed "the classical Spice Girls" - yes, terrifying isn't it?) appearing on the [nnngggg] "Classical Music Brit Awards". It is an interpretation, true, but the underlying motive seems to be to bring quasi-classical music to the unenlightened masses.

Personally, I can't listen to the whole of R Strauss's "Thus Spake Zarathrustra" without thinking of at least one image from that Stanley Kubrick film.

I've never seen it, so it's quite easy for me. (I read the book, but the book doesn't have a soundtrack.)

I have no patience for those who would claim that certain types of music are only for certain types of people. Let the people listen to whatever they want and then let *them* decide what they like. I have no problems with any artist that performs for the sake of performing and sharing their talent with others. I may not like their music, but I can respect what they're doing. What's wrong with bringing "quasi-classical music to the unenlightened masses?" As long as they're sincere, I think that should be all that matters.

Matthew Patterson:

The main problem I have is not with the existence of any popular group, but rather the fact that certain people listening to them feel the need to have that particular music set at 2^267709 Decibels so that I too must become deaf while listening to what I perceive as noise.

Boy, that was way off topic.

2^267709 decibels is probably enough energy to cause atoms to start splitting.

So now you know why I go deaf :-)

We've all heard the great famous works of classical music, such as Wagner's "Ride of the Helicopters from Apocalypse Now"

Which is a blatant re-use of his "'Kill the Wabbit' Theme."

And let's not forget Copland's stirring "Rhapsody in Beef"... ;-)

And now, for those of you who'd like to hear an off-color joke, I present... "Rhapsody in Green"!

Let's not forget Bugs Bunny's "Can't you see that I'm much sweeter, I'm your little Senoriter"...

"A true opera fanatic is someone who can listen to the whole William Tell overture and never once think of The Lone Ranger." -- David W. Barber

I'm not familiar with this Bond, but maybe if younger people are introduced to a very commercialized form of the music, it might lead them to the real thing eventually. Music appreciation courses have all but disappeared from public schools. Back in the Middle Ages when I was in grade school in Pittsburgh, the symphony gave young people's concerts once a month. At first, it was just a way to escape from school for an afternoon, but I gradually grew to like much of what I was hearing. My first classical LP was of Bizet's "Carmen" suites. I can't remember which orchestra, but I played it nearly as often as my Stevie Wonder and Beatles 45's. I'm all for anything that gets youths involved in classical music, and not just the old masters. They should be exposed to current composers as well, so they know it's not a dead music.

I considered myself a "middle ages" student, taking a music theory course in the 12th grade ... I was assigned to dissect Beethoven's 6th Symphony (the "Pastoral") and I have NEVER recovered from it since! ... the music drew me in and I was it's prisoner! Soon afterwards, I also played the "Grand Canyon Suite" and "1812 Overture" with as much vigor ...

Question:
How was classical music looked upon in previous centuries?

My answer:
Until about 150 years ago, it was commissioned by a bunch of nobles who could afford to support entire orchestras. Until the 19th century, the idea of a public concert hall was ludicrous. There was popular music that you heard in the streets and taverns, and there was "highfalutin-schmantzy" music that you heard in drawing-rooms and private theaters. They blended a bit at times, with folk tunes giving inspiration for themes in sonatas and the good ol' boys with the fiddles scratching out the latest popular aria. But not everybody listened to "classical" music back then, and not everybody wanted to!

Yeah, sure, music appreciation for anything other than "here and now" has gone down in the last 150 years. But people have always tried to "popularize" classical music, and classical music has always borrowed from "pop" culture. There's only so much whining you can do before you start demolishing the art form.

Also, in an age where the highly respected music deprtments of major universities commission violin concertos which end with the violin being dipped into a giant martini, or symphonies for "full orchestra, two pianos, three helicopters, and a small jet plane," how are we defining "classical" music?

Rebuttal?

Showmanship!

Also, in an age where the highly respected music deprtments of major universities commission violin concertos which end with the violin being dipped into a giant martini, or symphonies for "full orchestra, two pianos, three helicopters, and a small jet plane," how are we defining "classical" music?

Well, we should not get the idea that the idiocy of attention-seekers like John Cage dominates the modern "classical" world. But if we must define 21st Century music, we can look at minimalism, atonality, chromaticism, other post-modern elements, and, dare I say it, FILM MUSIC, where I believe much of what is "important" in orchestral music is occurring.

I agree. I've often thought that many motion picture scores would qualify (Star Wars, and Star Trek TMP and TWOK come to mind) as some very nice Romantic era music.

Well, they don't really qualify as Romantic music, simply because they incorporate dissonance and modern elements to a great extent. Film music does often reside in the Romantic idiom; however, it goes beyond it.

Let's not forget that what we call Classical
Music today was the Popular Music of its day.
Some of it was of course more popular than
others.
Also many composers like Beethoven,Hadyn and
Grieg based their works around folk music.
btw:I don't believe liking one kind of music
nessecarily limits you to liking or listening
to just that type of music.
I like Beethoven,but then again I also like
The Beach Boys!

In my view, much worse than using the music for advertising jingles is when it is turned into that nasty digital •••• that comes from mobile phones. The same ten seconds of a great piece of music play over and over again really badly and you soon become very sick of them. If anyone ever puts "Die Meistersinger von Nurmberg" on their mobile phone I'll make them eat it.

Peter.

Agreed Peter, what we really need are phones which chirp like Star Trek communicators.

When I get a mobile phone I will personalize the ring. My mobile phone ring songs I already hate. I want a personal ring of the Back Street Boys!

Somewhere in the last century it changed and not just in the diffrence between Bach and Wagner. Around Stravinski clasical music stoped "caring" about "the masses". (I'm using the wrong words but please bare with me.) Although Copeland, etc. are accessable, the average Joe Schmo assumes that without an advanced degree he won't understand it or appreciate it. (Kind of like post Bebop jazz.) The occaisional attempts to "make it relevant" by adding jet engines or doing "popular" tunes just get ignored and anger what is left of the fan base. Unless a something big happens classical music will become increasingly irrelevant and co-opted by commercials because ad agencies don't have to pay royalties for good music.

Oh please. Simply because much of 20th Century Music isn't all nice and inoffensive like Mozart does not make it "inaccessible." There is nothing "irrelevant" about Shostakovich or Stravinsky. More to the point, film music, as I said above, is easily the most vibrant medium for the orchestra, and it is hardly "irrelevant."

Peter and Sven of Nine... don't forget Dvorak's Theme from Bread Commercials.

Josh G.,

I didn't put myself clearly. (As you can tell I was reaching for words.) I do not claim they are "irrelevant". I claim they are seen as "irrelevant". A man who went to a communist party meeting in college to impress a chick may be seen as a security risk without being a security risk.

I'll add my two cents about how classical music is seen, but even knowing the composer's names means I personally do not agree it is inacessible without an advanced degree.

Try this experiment. Go to the beach with a boom box. Play Firebird Suite loudly. Count how many people ask you who that is? If they don't know the author you may get some. Find a woman who is more interested in you than classical music. Ask her if she'll acompany you to a concert. Her response will likely vary from Motzart and Shostakovitch.

Okay, William.

In any case, I think the range should rather be from Bach to Schoenberg...

I can always dream, I suppose.

Play Firebird Suite loudly. Count how many people ask you who that is?

Error type 11: What if they already know? This is one of my favorite pieces. ^_^ (Big, giant bass drum/timpani hits in the finale. You have no idea how hard it is to get timing that precise when counting very slowly in 7/4.)

Big, giant bass drum/timpani hits in the finale. You have no idea how hard it is to get timing that precise when counting very slowly in 7/4.

Yes, I do. 7/4 is a real rhymes-with-rich to play.