The air date has been pushed back to 02 October, 2002, (from 25 September, 2002) according to TVTome.com.

And the air date has been pushed back yet another week. See above.

The season premiere will run an extra ten minutes - don't forget to program those VCRs accordingly!

Hmmm....MJ moderating a board for a show based on a comic book? Wow, what's next? Pope John Paul frequenting a strip joint?

Well, you know the Vatican's dirty little secret...?

Not a bad pilot. Could’ve done without the Michelle Branch music, but I guess perhaps the creators wanted to reinforce the feminine side of the show. The way they integrated aspects of the comics into the show, instead of those awful Tim Buton movies, was a definite plus. I just might be watching this one. Dina Meyer is of course, a total babe, and giving the Huntress powers, whereas she is essentially like Batman in the comics (and not related to him or Catwoman by blood), was interesting.

SPOILER ALERT

SPOILER ALERT

SPOILER ALERT

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED BY BOTH LUIGI AND THE MODERATOR

THERE ARE SPOILERS!!!!

Yeah, it’s making high school seniors on that other show look like 24-year olds
Great Line: "There’s been some really weird stuff in meteor showers." -Helena, after Barbara tells Dinah about the different possible sources of metahuman abilities.

Based on characters created by Bob Kane, Bill Finger, Paul Dini, Robert Kanigher, and Carmine Infantino.
Written by Laeta Kalogridis
Directed by Michael Katleman, Chris Long, Brian Robbins & Craig Zisk

CAST:
Ashley Scott Helena Kyle/The Huntress
Dina Meyer Barbara Gordon/Oracle (nee Batgirl)
Rachel Skarsten Dinah Laurel Lance/Black Canary
Sherilyn Fenn Harleen Quinzel
Ian Abercrombie Alfred Pennyworth
Shemar Moore Detective Jacob 'Jake' Reese
Alex Daniels Batman
Bruce Thomas Bruce Wayne
Roger Stoneburner The Joker
Mark Hamill The Joker (voice)

Then again, what she wore when explaining why she joined the military in Starship Troopers might’ve been nice too.
Batgirl’s costume is nice for nostalgia freaks, but personally, I would’ve used the costume used by the current Batgirl, which has much less yellow (though I wouldn’t have used the stitchface). A yellow chest bat is one thing, but the boots and gloves kinda push it as far as remaining inconspicuous.
The revised Who’s Who in the DC Universe?
How did the Joker know where Barbara lived?
This nit’s a real scream
When I first heard the young blonde girl’s name was "Dinah," I thought she was going to turn out to be Black Canary. But she has entirely different powers, so I figured the first name was coincidence. But the Internet Movie Database indicates she is indeed Black Canary. Oddly enough, it also lists Mia Sara as Dr. Quinzel, even though Sherilyn Fenn plays her. And also noteworthy, of course, is Mark Hamill as the voice of the Joker.
But thank God I we didn’t have to see Gordon in bondage gear
Nice redo of that fateful scene in Alan Moore and Brian Bolland’s The Killing Joke. Even the reason the Joker does what he did was the same, except that he was striking out against Batman instead of Jim Gordon.
Hmmm……..I think I’m coming down with schizophrenia…or multiple personality disorder…or manic depression…whatever….I just know I have some type of mental disorder…just get me on the couch next to her.
Sherilyn Fenn as a shrink? Cool!
I’m having images of Sherilyn Fenn in red spandex
And her name turns out at the end to be Harleen Quinzel??? Even though I knew Harleen Quinzel was going to be in it, I forgot about it until the end when it was revealed. I guess knowing Harley Quinn was in this, I’d have looked for a blonde instead of a brunette.
Person1: "Holy cow! There’s a guy up there on the rooftops!"
Person 2: "Nah, don’t worry, I recognize that guy. It’s Larry the building custodian."
Person1: "Oh, that’s okay. But wait! Over there! There’s another one with a mask on!"
Person2: "Whoa, now THAT’s suspicious! Let’s check it out!"
That the Huntress doesn’t wear a mask is downright stupid. Perhaps the creators thought it clever that they had Barbara point this out, but Helena’s reasoning was just plain dumb. By doing what she does without a mask, numerous witnesses can identify her, and now a cop can too. The idea that she shouldn’t wear one because it’s conspicuous ignores the fact that they don’t walking down the street in costume. Who, if they saw some woman in black leather and high hells flying around on the rooftops conspicuous only if she had a mask on?
Warning! Unnatural-sounding expository dialogue coming up!
Don’t you just love it when the perimeter breach alarm goes off, and Barbara says, "Perimeter Breach!"?
The reporter must’ve been Matt Drudge
When Barbara researches the businessman who died in the beginning of the show, the newspaper clipping she pulls up says, "Local Businessman killed in Bus Accident." First of all, it was an 18-wheeler truck, not a bus.
They must’ve been New Yorkers. Nothing phases them.
Second, weren’t there loads of witnesses passing by there who noticed his odd behavior and saw him jump in front of the bus? Shouldn’t the headline, based on how it looked to those witnesses, have referred to it as a suicide?
"Groovy" just isn’t a word I want associated with Gotham City
Holy Cow! Greg from the Brady Brunch was one of the dead businessman’s partners? (That was Barry Williams in the shot of his business partners, right?)
The shop down the street has donuts at half price
Detective Reese finds the Huntress at the scene of the business partner’s hanging. Where are the other cops? Remember, Reese is a detective, so he’s usually called to the scene of the crime by his superiors after beat cops find the bodies unless he’s investigating himself and finds it. Let’s assume he found the body with the Huntress there right when he walked in. Why was he skulking around the guy’s apartment in the dark with a flashlight? If he thought the guy was still alive, was he entering his apartment illegally? If he had a warrant, he would’ve been accompanied by cops, presented it, and if no one was home, broke the door in and then snoop around. We then cut to minutes later, when the Huntress is in handcuffs. So some time has passed. More time passes as they talk. So where are the other cops that should be on the scene? Where’s the Crime Scene Unit? Didn’t Reese call them?
He transferred from the LAPD
When Huntress lets on to Reese that she practically giftwrapped the Dorsett kidnapper for the NGPD, Reese, realizing she’s more than just a girl he found in someone’s apartment, levels his gun at her. She’s already in handcuffs!
Yeah, almost as dumb as plastering a bright yellow elipse in the middle of your chest when going up against criminals.
Why does the headset that Barbara gives Dinah light up? Does this make sense if she wants to keep Dinah inconspicuous? Hell, not only do the night vision goggles light up, but so does the microphone!
Or she could’ve used her head, since she doesn’t seem to be using it for much else
Dinah uses her fist to punch the glass on the front door to Ketterman’s home. As my friend Chris Lopez said while we watched it, "That’s what elbows are for!"
You should see his whoopie cushion
At first I thought the device the Joker used in the flashback scenes against Batgirl was similar to the gauntlets he used to kill Robin in the JLA The Nail miniseries, but upon closer inspection, I realized that it was a joy buzzer that, unlike the one in the first Tim Burton movie that he needed to shake hands with to use, could project electrical arcs at a distance.

At one point, Barbara is on about investigating suicides where it doesn't look like the deceased had any apparent reason to kill themselves. Well, she's going to be awful busy if she plans on investigating every one of those. Loads and loads of suicides are seemingly uninclined to end their life beforehand.

Luigi, apparently Sherilyn Fenn was cast as Dr Quinzel, but for one reason or another she was replaced by Mia Sara and the scenes with her re-shot. However, some copies (review copies, I guess) slipped out into the big wide world still with Ms Fenn. (On the other hand, the IMDB isn't always 100% accurate, especially for newer things, being the product of its contributors. Even a year after it came out, Star Trek - First Contact had Avery Brooks amongst its cast there because one of those everso true rumours before the release had him in it and someone decided to make it 'fact'.)

So you're saying the one I saw isn't the one that's going to be broadcast on October 9th?

Nope. They changed the Clocktower sets to look better, and Sherilyn Fenn did not want the role on a recurring basis, so they recast and reshot those parts (similar to what happened with the Smallville pilot).

That's a shame and a half - if anyone could pick up a series like this and run away with it, it'd be Fenn.

Having seen the original un-aired version (with Fenn), and the one showed tonight, I must say...

I liked the un-aired better.

Alfred's little narrative in the beginning bugged me.

The first shot of the Tower showed it had a mirrored face. At the end, it was clear.

Re: the Joker's long-distance joy buzzer, seen in flashback. Why did this gadget's output hurl Batgirl across the room? Is there kinetic energy in electrical arcs?
If Barbara didn't expect anyone besides herself, Helena, and Alfred to ever enter the "lair," why does she have all that sophisticated metahuman-detecting CAT scan equipment up there?

Regarding that line about meteors, does this mean there's going to be an inevitable croosover? I hope not! I'm too used to my WB viewing limited to two shows, and I want to keep it that way!

I don't think they take place in the same time period, Brian. In the time frame of BoP, Batman is dead. In the time frame of Smallville, Clark Kent is a teenager. Since Superman and Batman are around roughly the same age, one show takes place before Batman's career, and the other takes place long after it.

And yeah, MJ, I agree with you about Alfred'd narration. It was annoying. I like the version I have on my computer better.

Luigi,

In the comics, you are (more or less) right about the timeframes. But both shows take place in 2002. Apparently Batman's career in *this* version was in the seventies and eighties, but Clark/Superman wasn't a part of it. If the producers decide they need to "help" the one, it probably will cross-over with the other.

Regarding the mirrored, unmirrored face of the clock tower. It depends on the lighting. During the day it is brighter inside than outside. so the front appears mirrored. During the night with the interior lights on the face is back lit so it is now transparent. i've seen other glass like this.


The above does not explain why it seems the clock tower is bigger on the inside than the outside.

AH-HAH! So THATS what happened to the set of Fox's Dr. Who!!!!

I think a BIRDS OF PREY/DOCTOR WHO crossover would be more entertaining than a BOP/SMALLVILLE crossover.

I do hope they decide to give Huntress a mask. (Maybe with a little purple in it?) I mean,now that Reese has seen her clearly, what's to stop him from having a sketch made of her, and putting out an APB on her?

And despite her "I am the weapon" line, it would also be nice if we eventually get to see her use a crossbow, perhaps a later addition that she decides to carry with her? Perhaps an episode involves her temporarily losing her powers, and she needs it to scale buildings, and after she gets her powers back, she decides to keep the crossbow? Just a suggestion.

I also wonder if Dinah will ever run into a talented young archer named Oliver, and maybe they hook up?

When Dinah was headed for New Gotham, did that look like the Jersey Turnpike to anyone else?

Just as the Dinah who hooked up with the eccentric Mr Queen in the comics is the daughter of Dinah Drake and Larry Lance, I prefer to think of this Dinah as Dinah Lance's daughter. Third generation to the name(s). (Still, that's just me)

Inside Helena's head, the "dead" Barbara's eyes are flickering.

The spikes on Batgirl's arms are solid and she seems to use them mainly for hitting people in the face. OUCH!

Having seen both versions, Sherilyn Fenn was MUCH creepier.

According to Kryptonsite...er. I mean GothamClockTower, Former Full House actress Lori Loughlin will be appearing as Black Canary

As I was watching the premiere I couldn't help but note certain similarities with one of the WB's
other popular series CHARMED:

1.Both series are about a trio of heroines who have magical or superpowers.

2.Both feature a black detective who helps and abets the trio on occassion.

3.Dinah Lance and Phoebe Howiwell have similiar
pscyhic powers:they both can tell what will or has happened to a person by touch.

4.At least one of the heroine's mother was killed
some time in the past.

Of course there are also obvious differences as well.But it is interesting that the similarities
are so close that one almost wonders why the WB
didn't think of putting CHARMED and BIRDS OF PREY
on the same night,other than it would probably really louse up the CHARMED/ANGEL double billing.

I wonder if BUFFY were still on the WB instead of
UPN now wheter or not in fact the WB might not have done such a thing.It just seems that a
CHARMED/BIRDS OF PREY double billing in my mind would have been as natural as a BUFFY/ANGEL one.

Merat: When Dinah was headed for New Gotham, did that look like the Jersey Turnpike to anyone else?
Luigi Novi: No more so than any other highway I've ever been on. I certainly don't ever recall seeing that many hills near the Turnpike.

I distinctly found the "cat roar" that signified Helena doing something meta-human to be very annoying.

We got the hint she's Catwoman's daughter, geesh.

TomM: Luigi, in the comics, you are (more or less) right about the timeframes. But both shows take place in 2002.
Luigi Novi: Sure. But most comics don't take place in any one given year. They simply take place "now".

Speaking of which, Tom, did you hear about the Gaiman/McFarlane suit? Gaiman won on all 17 counts, and Todd McFarlane and Image has to pay him $45,000 for using his likeness and biography without his permission for Angela's Hunt. (The judge added costs to the award, and all the other damages will be decided in a later proceeding with an arbitrator.) Good riddance to Todd McFarlane. The enfant terrible of the industry got what was coming to him.

What happened with Gaiman and McFarlane?

Geez, Merat, where have you been? I'll post details on the Comic Book boards. Go there for more. (I don't want to offend MJ's sensibilities with talk of comic books. )

Why is Reese's superior so skeptical when Reese starts talking about weird things going on? Isn't metahuman activity established in this world? Wasn't Batman a feature of Gotham until several years prior? I could possibly buy it a bit more if this were The Dark Knight Returns, which was set decades after Batman's retirement, but this is what, seven years later?

Hey, Moderator, I wanna post some stuff about Slick! When ya gonna enable that board, huh?

Whoops.

Thought I had.

All boards up currently are now enabled. I definitely checked on that.

Didn't they mention that few people knew of Batman's existance when he was fighting crime? I would guess that even fewer people know of him know.

Merat, I don't see how only "few" people could know of it. All the criminals he caught would know. Jim Gordon and the GCPD had to know if Bats droppd all of them into their laps, etc.

At peterdavid.net, a poster named skrinq pointed out that the noise of the gears and workings of the tower clock would deafen anyone in the room.

Luigi: They're special gears. Barbara had them specially designed for her headquarters.

Where was this established?

The criminals he caught know, the criminals they talked to know, and the police at that time knew. However, the vast majority of people in the city did not know about Batman. Also, Batman wasn't "metahuman."

Oh, one last thing.... ANOTHER villain with a big chin. Stereotyping! And here I thought that Bruce Campbell made it "cool to have a big chin!"

Merat: The criminals he caught know, the criminals they talked to know, and the police at that time knew. However, the vast majority of people in the city did not know about Batman.
Luigi Novi: That makes no sense, Merat. Of course the people knew. What, no one watches the news or reads the papers in Gotham? There are no crime reporters? C'mon.

Merat: Also, Batman wasn't "metahuman."
Luigi Novi: What does that have to do with anything? The point is, the cop's skepticism seems out of place in a city where costumed crimefighters are well established. What do metahumans in particular have to do with it?

And they've repeated it again in Prey for the Hunter, when Reese doesn't believe the other cop when he tells him about Batman. This makes no sense. Jim Gordon was Batamn's friend and contact. During the Year Two storyline in Detective Comics, Gordon was even interviewed on TV about his relationship with Batman.

The series goes out of its way to drop hints about its relationship to the comics. Dick Grayson is mentioned. So is Jayson Todd. So is Tim Drake. In Prey for the Hunter, they even mention Bludhaven. Hell, Barbara Gordon's crippling is practically lifted straight from The Killing Joke. Are they going to establish everything from the comics except the fact that people know about Batman, and try to pass off this hokey idea that no one talked about him, that the police force didn't learn of him from the criminals he encountered, that no reporters talked to cops or the crooks, etc?

Possibly the weakest idea of this series.

Luigi: I was kidding about the gears. I'm just trying to help out the creators, who still seem to forget that some of us notice this stuff.

I like the continuity problem between BoP and Smallville. Despite the fact that Superman and Batman were contemporaries, despite the fact that in BoP Batman's dead and in Smallville Superman's a teen, they both take place "now". It reminds me of one of my favorite movies, which takes place "Today" (according to writing on-screen). The movie came out over 15 years ago by now, and yet it's still Today. Sometimes that really strikes me weird.

Whoa, wait.

Has it been firmly established that Batman is dead? I thought he went MIA.

Or are we referring to the character of Batman is dead, but Bruce Wayne lives on...?

Sorry, Mei. I couldn't tell.

I don't see the continuity as a "problem." The two series may be by the same creators, but that doesn't mean their in the same universe. One takes place in one continuum, and the other in another.

MJ-

Well, the mansion is empty, except for Alfred, so both Batman and Wayne are out of the picture. But it isn't very clear whether he retired or expired. That's probably deliberate, so they can bring him back during a sweeps if necessary.

"Isn't metahuman activity established in this world? Wasn't Batman a feature of Gotham until several years prior?"


You seemed to be linking metahumans and Batman. I was correcting this.

Luigi, they have to be in the same universe. DC only has one universe: this has been established.
DC, having been around since the 30s or 40s (can't remember: wa-a-ay before my time), explained away inconsistencies by creating several different 'Earths'. The original Batman, Superman, etc., were on Earth 2. Not Earth 1, notice, that was reserved for the 'modern-day' superheroes - which was like the 60s or 70s. DC wound up with a bunch of different Earths, for the different superhero sets - and it got out of hand. Continuity started to get out of hand. So, in 1985, DC produced Crisis on Infinite Earths - wherein some evil bad guy (is there another kind?) decides to destroy all the Earths. The series spanned a year. By the end, there was only One Earth, with superheroes from the different Earth's all here, with different pasts, to fit the new Earth.
This is also when they killed off Super Girl, poor thing. Some say she was killed by a bad movie, but she was actually killed by bad continuity. (But I digress.)
This is actually where the Huntress came from. She was originally from Earth 2, and was, indeed, the daughter of Batman and Catwoman. When the Earths were combined, she was here, but she had no background. And, interestingly enough, she was killed in the series, so she shouldn't be here now. Is she back in DC Comics? (I haven't collected in a decade, so I've rather lost touch.)

Two points:

1)It's not the DC continuity here, but that of the WB Yes I know thathat AOL Time Warner owns them both, but movie and TV continuity has always been separate from the original source: consider that Batgirl in the recent movies was not Barbara Gordon, daughter of the police commissioner, but Barbara Pennyworth, niece of Bruce's butler Alfred.

2) In the Kingdom Come sequel The Kingdom the concept of hypertime was introduced. With hypertime, all of the bebefits and liabilities of infinite Earths -- and much more besides -- have been restored. Crisis only destroyed those universes separated by vibration rates or along space-like axes. All the universes separated by time-like axes still exist, and can under certain cercumstances interact and even temporarily merge.

For more details click here.

Well, actually, DC has more than one universe. There's Vertigo, Paradox Press, Wildstorm, etc. I'm assuming you don't think Mike O'Sullivan from Road to Perdition is going to come strolling into Gotham City in an issue of Batman, right? Vertigo alone has myriad universes, since the characters from Preacher, for example, do not inhabit the same universe as those from 100 Bullets or Vamps. Similarly, J and K from Men in Black aren't going to appear in the next X-Men or Hulk movies, just because Marvel owns them all, right?

I guess you meant DC's mainstream superhero universe, right?

Even then, just because they exist in the same universe in the comics doesn't mean they exist in the same universe in adaptations of them to other media.

There's no reason to presume that Blade, Spider-Man, the X-Men, Daredevil and the Hulk are in the same movie universe, especially since one is produced by New Line Cinema, another by Columbia Pictures, two by 20th Century Fox, and another by Universal.

There wouldn't be anything to stop the creators from a crossover if the two shows were about Superman and Batman during their careers as crimefighters, but since one show takes place several years before the start of one, and another takes place after the end of the other, the two shows are clearly not in the same time period.