Captain Dylan Hunt is reunited with his former fiance Sara.

So Harper an this new race - the Perseids(?) - build the first working transporter, and it can transmit through the time warp (???) at the event horizon of a black hole.(!!!!)

Too bad Harper didn't have time (or was too egotistical to realize that one pocket size signal booster would not be enough) to build a set of pattern enhancers. (though we never saw any in TOS, so maybe it takes a second-generation understanding of transporter technology.)

The Perseids seem to be (continuing the ST:TOS analogies) Andorians born with the Vulcans' love of science.

Now this was a good use of a cross-time story.

My notes are buried at the moment, but some things which bothered me.
The speed at which they developed a working transporter.
The fact that the ship in the past didn't have to build a reception unit.
The fact that Dylan & Sara were dematerialized & rematerialized twice in the past, but then Harper says that the booster wasn't strong enough. Excuse me? The only working transporter is on Andromeda & it doesn't seem to have a problem taking 2 people apart & putting them back together 300 years in the past, but it can't pull their signals through time?

The speed at which they developed a working transporter.

We don't know WHAT the state of research/testing etc. was on a transporter. It could be that they've had ALMOST working models for years, and the extra info they got from studying the wormhole put them over the top.

The fact that the ship in the past didn't have to build a reception unit.

You're thinking Trek tech here. Why would a transporter device need a reception device? Perhaps the Androm Universe transporters work differently?

The fact that Dylan & Sara were dematerialized & rematerialized twice in the past, but then Harper says that the booster wasn't strong enough. Excuse me? The only working transporter is on Andromeda & it doesn't seem to have a problem taking 2 people apart & putting them back together 300 years in the past, but it can't pull their signals through time?

Once again, who knows how these things work? Perhaps the difference between materializing and dematerializing is exponentially simpler than actually pulling a couple through time?

Question though: is the transporter that's been built ONLY capable of transporting through time? Was there any implication in this ep that we'll be seeing a regularly working transporter soon?

The full title is The Banks Of The Lethe.

Why did just the top of the plant explode, but not the roots?

Dylan says, "Nothing comes out of a black hole." Don't X-Rays come out of black holes?

Of course, if they can communicate this way & transport Dylan back to be with Sara, what's to stop them from trying this again?

Len, you're quickly becoming the Smiley, or worse, Jwb52z, of Andromeda.
You're thinking Trek tech here. Actually, Trek got it wrong, too. On Trek they don't need receptors.
As I understand the nature of transporting things. A device takes something apart, reduces it to transmittable energy, or, at least, reduces it to a formula that can be recreated (How to build a Fred*), then transmits it. Once it leaves the transmitter it would seem to be out of the ability of the device to control so how can it reconstruct the thing it dematerialized? Well, you would need another unit to recieve/intercept the signal then reconstruct the object.
Of course, if they had built such a unit in the past, then the transport of Sarah would have worked.

*Guess the reference.

Once again, who knows how these things work?
That's why we hypothesize & theorize.

Perhaps the difference between materializing and dematerializing is exponentially simpler than actually pulling a couple through time?
And filming a TV Show is exponentially simpler than broadcasting it.

Oh, Perseids is an Earth word relating to something coming from, or appearing to come from, the constellation of Perseus. As in the Perseid meteor shower.

According to dialogue the Commonwealth existed before Humanity encountered other races, so the 10,082 reference cannot be used to indicate how many years this is into the future.

>Dylan says, "Nothing comes out of a black hole." >Don't X-Rays come out of black holes?

Actually, no. X-rays are produced as particles are drawn into black holes and torn apart by the gravity differentials (it is possible for a point in the black hole gravity well to experience a gravitational force that is millions of times greater than a point just a millimeter up the slope) - also, since black holes are so called because light cannot escape them, then X-rays cannot escape either since they are just light at higher frequencies.

On the other hand, this is not a real universe, else the Andromeda Ascendant would have been pulled apart by the gravity differentials I wrote about above - but hey, we'd have no series.

The full title is The Banks Of The Lethe.

Do you know to what that is it a reference?

Why did just the top of the plant explode, but not the roots?

Why should it explode evenly?

Of course, if they can communicate this way & transport Dylan back to be with Sara, what's to stop them from trying this again?

Yes—actually, that’s sort of an interesting question. When I first saw this ep, I was really confused: I initially thought through the vagaries of time dilation that Sarah was seeing the future Andromeda somehow, and was wondering how they knew they wouldn’t be able to reach it. Then (du-oh) I figured out that while she was TALKING to the future Andromeda, she was SEEING the Andromeda of her own time frame. Which actually raises the question as to HOW Andromeda can speak to her back in time? Is it related to the same thing that allows them to transport back in time? Can they speak to ANYONE back in time ANYWHERE? Or is it all integrally related to the presence of a black hole? In any event, assuming that they can send messages and transport back in time when they’re near THAT black hole, there’s nothing to stop them form coming back in a year and trying again (unless the backwards time talk/transport has a fixed chronal range – would probably be a GOD thing to explain why they don’t try again). Another thing that may stop them from trying again is the idea that time cannot change. So far, except for theoretical musings of several characters, it appears the Androm Universe is taking the position that time can’t change. So that means that if they DO try again, they could ONLY try from the point in the past where they last tried it (i.e. they can’t contact Sarah’s ship at the exact same time point, because then there would be TWO future Andromeda’s talking to Sarah, and that’s NOT the way it happened from what we see in this ep). So then, we can explain the lack of an attempt in 1 of 2 ways: (1) if the time talk/transport has a fixed chronal range, a year later could make the earlier Andromeda too far into the black hole to retrieve; or (2) the earlier Andromeda is ALREADY too far to retrieve. HOWEVER, if you look at their goal to simply bring Sara back to the future (hey! There’s a cool title!;^) then, once they lick the 2 people thing (which may NEVER be lickable –ick) they COULD try again (assuming they know WHERE Sarah is in the past (if the time transport needs to know physical location).

Len, you're quickly becoming the Smiley, or worse, Jwb52z, of Andromeda.

Hmmm..sorry KAM, but I’m not a frequent enough reader to get the reference. Are they apologists/anti-nitters? Personally, I love playing the role of anti-nitter, and welcome rebuttal! :^) It’s very EASY to jump on the new guy (or in Voyagers case, the old bandwagon), so I relish taking up the defense!

”You're thinking Trek tech here.” Actually, Trek got it wrong, too. On Trek they don't need receptors.
As I understand the nature of transporting things. A device takes something apart, reduces it to transmittable energy, or, at least, reduces it to a formula that can be recreated (How to build a Fred*), then transmits it. Once it leaves the transmitter it would seem to be out of the ability of the device to control so how can it reconstruct the thing it dematerialized? Well, you would need another unit to receive/intercept the signal then reconstruct the object.
Of course, if they had built such a unit in the past, then the transport of Sarah would have worked

*Guess the reference. .

The point I was making is that you’re making an unfounded assumption as to how the transporter works. Here’s one simple explanation where receptors are NOT needed: The transporter beam is CONTINUOUS. That is, the rematerialization process is done from the ORIGIN, not the target. I’m sure there are other explanations possible.

(and: sorry, the reference eludes me)

“Once again, who knows how these things work? “ That's why we hypothesize & theorize.

Granted. However, I would take the position that it’s unfair to nit where there’s no inconsistency based on the info that we have to date.

The point I was making is that you're making an unfounded assumption as to how the transporter works. Here's one simple explanation where receptors are NOT needed: The transporter beam is CONTINUOUS. That is, the rematerialization process is done from the ORIGIN, not the target. I'm sure there are other explanations possible.

Granted. However, I would take the position that it's unfair to nit where there's no inconsistency based on the info that we have to date.

Ahh but there is an inconsistancy. In all the scenes where they were testing the teleportor (when the plants and melons exploded) there was a recieving unit as well as a sending unit.

Ahh but there is an inconsistancy. In all the scenes where they were testing the teleportor (when the plants and melons exploded) there was a recieving unit as well as a sending unit.

Was it established that the location where it rematerialized was a receiving unit? Or was it just a secure place where they beamed it in case it happened to explode? I don't think that's discernable from the ep.

The full title is The Banks Of The Lethe.

Do you know to what that is it a reference?

Of course. The River Lethe is one of the rivers of Hades. Specifically, it is the river of forgetfullness...

>Dylan says, "Nothing comes out of a black hole." >Don't X-Rays come out of black holes?

Actually, no. X-rays are produced as particles are drawn into black holes and torn apart by the gravity differentials (it is possible for a point in the black hole gravity well to experience a gravitational force that is millions of times greater than a point just a millimeter up the slope) - also, since black holes are so called because light cannot escape them, then X-rays cannot escape either since they are just light at higher frequencies.

On the other hand, this is not a real universe, else the Andromeda Ascendant would have been pulled apart by the gravity differentials I wrote about above - but hey, we'd have no series.

In addition, Black Holes emit something called "Hawking Radiation", which is a result of the matter-energy equivalence and the uncertainty principle.

Essentially, what happens is an electron/positron pair is created within the black hole, close to the event horizon (this isn't hard to do, it only takes about 1Mev to do so). Generally, the pair will annihilate each other. But sometimes, because of the Uncertainty Principle, a positron may tunnel out of the black hole, where it is annhilated and creates radiation.

Note: I don't have my quantum and cosmology references handy here, so I may be slightly wrong in the specifics, but that's the general gist...

Was it established that the location where it rematerialized was a receiving unit? Or was it just a secure place where they beamed it in case it happened to explode? I don't think that's discernable from the ep.

But the container looked almost identical to the sending unit. That means that it was intended by the set designers to be interpreted as a recieving unit, unless the dialogue makes it clear that it is not.

In addition, Black Holes emit something called "Hawking Radiation", which is a result of the matter-energy equivalence and the uncertainty principle.

In fact, it is through Hawking radiation that (unless they pull in more "ouside" matter) black holes gradually lose mass, and eventually dissipate.

I suspect that Hawking radiation (or rather the specific Heisenberg conditions that give rise to it) is the reason that the Perseids were studying the black hole to refine their matter-transference theories.

Yes, Len, I did know that the Lethe was a mythological river related to memory.

One thing that could keep them from trying the time-talking again is the fact that they never picked up any other messages from different points in time.
However there are other black holes in the universe (and the Commonwealth covered 3 galaxies.)

Smiley & Jwb52z don't seem to like anyone finding nits in Voyager. I think if the ship was in space and Janeway opened the window to let the breeze in they would not have a problem with that.
If Dylan opened a window on Andromeda while it was in space, I'm afraid you might say, "We don't know the rules in the Andromeda universe. Maybe there space does have a breathable atmosphere?"
There is a difference between giving a show leeway and jumping completely the hell out of the way.

I have nothing against anti-nits, I've even anti-nitted myself, but I don't enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing. (You're not a debater, by any chance?) That's why I never set foot in Religious or Political Musings.

The reference was to the phrase 'How to build a Fred', which comes from James P. Hogan's Code Of The Lifemaker. (Otherwise I would have said 'How to build a Frank'.;-) It was a humorous bit, in an otherwise dry book, about robots developing sentience and building a civilization.

Yes, Len, I did know that the Lethe was a mythological river related to memory.

I had asked because I DIDN'T know that.

One thing that could keep them from trying the time-talking again is the fact that they never picked up any other messages from different points in time.

Well, actually, they DID pick up messages from different points in time- but ALWAYS at the same relative displacement from their first conversation. Which may lend the inference that there is a strict limit on the RANGE of their time-talk.

Smiley & Jwb52z don't seem to like anyone finding nits in Voyager. I think if the ship was in space and Janeway opened the window to let the breeze in they would not have a problem with that.
If Dylan opened a window on Andromeda while it was in space, I'm afraid you might say, "We don't know the rules in the Andromeda universe. Maybe there space does have a breathable atmosphere?"
There is a difference between giving a show leeway and jumping completely the hell out of the way.
I have nothing against anti-nits, I've even anti-nitted myself, but I don't enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing. (You're not a debater, by any chance?) That's why I never set foot in Religious or Political Musings.

ah- thought it was something like that. Well, I WON'T say that I'm shy about a good debate (and admit to making my living in part on that basis), but I WILL say that the only debates you'll generally find from me will be based on (hopefully) firm grounds of logic. I DO believe in giving a show the benefit of the doubt (tie goes to the runner) - if there's a logically defensible position that favors the writers, I say give it to them! (at least UNTIL they've been given enough rope to hang themselves! :^)

(and I ALSO admit that despite being a Voyager defender as I think THAT show is unfairly OVER-maligned, there are plenty of nits to go around there, the foremost being inconsistencies in Janeway's character).

Now we have yet a second method of time travel (see Angel Dark, Demon Bright).

Again, I hope that TPTB don't abuse it.

We also run into the Time Loop paradox here...

If Dylan stays in the past and helps Sara extract Andromeda from the black hole, then he's not in the future where Harper creates the transporter/timeporter so he can't go back, so Andromeda doesn't get rescued essentially immediatly, so he's trapped in the hole for 300 years so he can go back...

NORMAN, COORDINATE!!!!

Dataport date: 6.1-6.5.10087

Sorry again, but that answer is also incomplete, Mr. Jamilkowski. A portion of this story was set around 300 years in the past, so that date should be included as well.

Your grade is now reduced to a B.

Don't blame me. Blame Seamus Harper. Or Sparky Cola. Or the people who create his dataport website.

"Dylan says, "Nothing comes out of a black hole." Don't X-Rays come out of black holes?"

It has just recently been determined that other things also escape from black holes....

I think. But again, who knows what we will discover about the universe in the next howevermany years?

"Don't X-Rays come out of black holes?"
--Merat

They do not (well, I suppose I shouldn't entirely rule that out but..) The X-rays that are seen are from electrons spiraling in so fast that they produce radiation in the X-Ray band.

However, things do come out of black holes: Hawking radiation has been known for some time now

Actually I thought io read somewhere or heard that Haawking himself said he might have been mistaken about nothign being able to get out of a black hole.

Hawking's Black Hole Bet.

Of course, scrolling up reveals the board has already had most of this conversation already...

Unfortunately, I can't seem to find Hawking's paper on the topic (I admit, I did only search the archive)

Khalid looks rather... out of shape... for a Nietzchean!