Andromeda goes back in time days before the climatic battle of the Nietzchean revolution and Hunt decides if he should alter history.

Nooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!! If he alters history, there will be a paradox! If he didn't go into the future, then there would be no need for him to alter history, so he wouldn't do it, but then the Nietzians would win, so he would need to alter history, but then there would be no need for him to do it, but.... ad nauseum.

Excellent!!!!

So the Voyager writers have infested Andromeda?

If the story does follow that plot summary, the big question is why?

This brain dead storyline has been done to death. It is a cliche. Even if they can somehow think up an original plot twist, it will be too little, too late to possibly make it interesting.

So you're basically dismissing the time travel sub-genre of SF as a whole? Is that it??

Just as long as we're treating this all wiht an open mind...! :^)

No. Just this particular overused storyline. There are other time travel storylines.

Obviously Dylan won't change time, otherwise the entire premise of the show is blown out of the water.

There will, probably, be a lot of hand-wringing & arguing about would it be right to change time. Ho-hum.

Rent the Kirk Douglas movie where the USS Nimitz is sent back in time to just before Pearl Harbor (I think it's called The Final Countdown?)

I'm hoping that it will turn out to be an illusion created by some alien to test Dylan, but years of watching bad TV writers handle time travel, I'm not expecting much.

.

Internal Service Error?

Well obviously the

this sucks!!

Well, they did have something new to say in this plotline, since both Tyr and Harper had their own agendas, and Dylan learned that to preserve history, he had to be pro-active. Also, 100,000 lives! That's a hard choice. Interesting that it was Rev, the pacifist, who saw most clearly that Dylan had to ambush and destroy those 100,000 lives.

-----------

So, Harper's grasp of history isn't as secure as he thinks. Teddy Roosevelt and Ho Chi Minh?

haven't seen the ep yet but...

Well obviously the Enterprise C and Dr. McCoy weren't going to change time either--but they still gave us 2 of the all-time best episodes in the history of Star Trek in "Yesterday's Enterprise" and "City On The Edge of Forever"!

And, actually, "War Without End" was one of the best Babylon 5 episodes. And there are several classic Twilight Zone and Outer Limits episodes revolving around time travel.

EVERYTHING's been done poorly at one time or another. That doesn't mean that EVERYTHING can't be done right! Any concept, in the hands of good writers can succeed. And, IMHO, time travel is one of the concepts that has the highest upside around.

Well obviously the Enterprise C and Dr. McCoy weren't going to change time either--but they still gave us 2 of the all-time best episodes in the history of Star Trek in "Yesterday's Enterprise" and "City On The Edge of Forever"!

Actually, in those eps, time was changed, and then had to be set right -- another overused time travel plot altogether, but one that is easier to come up with new variations of.

This cast in the mold of the other side of the coin: "Somehow the cast is sent to the past and have to be careful not to change history." This was more like DS9's "Past Tense" than like the eps you mentioned. Much harder to work fresh ideas into. Fortunately it was better than I feared.

I thought this was a wonderful episode. Everything played out smoothly and effectively. I liked how the episode ended with Trance, just the way it began, only reversed (She is working with plants and not technology, where before it was the opposite.)

On top of all that, the visuals of the N fleet and Andromeda's escape from the nebula were amazing.

-Why exactly does Trance have to pilot the ship and not the ship itself? They say Rommie can't get a "feel" for it. Does that really make sense? This advanced ship can't pilot a relatively straightforward track correctly?

-At the end of the ep, Rommie does a scan of space to find out where (and when) the Andromeda ended up. So why didn't she notice that they were in the wrong time when they first go back in time?

-Why didn't Andromeda notice that her internal sensors were out when Harper takes them down?

-I still wonder why they made an "in the flesh" version of Rommie.

-1500 Nietczian ships and they couldn't destroy Andromeda? And after they just blew up a fully-stocked high guard ship?

-It was pretty unbelievable that Andromeda's crew could create another accident so soon after the initial slipstream that trapped them in the past.

-Why did Trance cut off that BIG limb from the tree? Was that really necessary?

I think this episode was designed to provide the viewers with more exposition on what happened after the war and how things developed to how it is "now". Fleshy Andromeda seems inconsistant. Sometimes she quirks her head to do something (indicating a mental connection to the ship) and sometimes she's pushing buttons. I suppose this is easily explained.

-Why exactly does Trance have to pilot the ship and not the ship itself? They say Rommie can't get a "feel" for it. Does that really make sense? This advanced ship can't pilot a relatively straightforward track correctly?

Actually- this was an EXCELLENT point for the writers! What it appears they've done if you listen to the dialogue carefully (the beauty of a CC function on the TV), is that they've related Slipstream travel to quantum mechanics and Heisenberg's uncertainty theory. I.e. they mentioned that the reason you need a human, and not a computer, is based on a need for having an "organic observer" - much in the way that events are not said to "happen" until actually viewed. It shows the writers are really thinking about this. And is consistent with the recent interview with Robert Hewitt Wolfe in which he mentions that a lot of the hard science is just sitting in the background to be noticed and not explicitly mentioned in the exposition. (another example is the "Bucky" cables used to pull in ships).


-At the end of the ep, Rommie does a scan of space to find out where (and when) the Andromeda ended up. So why didn't she notice that they were in the wrong time when they first go back in time?

Perhaps because the 1st time, it never occurred to her to check. The 2nd time, she knew what was happening.

-1500 Nietczian ships and they couldn't destroy Andromeda? And after they just blew up a fully-stocked high guard ship?

It's unclear what kind of ship Andromeda is in relation to the rest of the Commonwealth. I think they've mentioned it's the Flagship - it might be unique (or at least rare) and A LOT more powerful than the rest of the fleet.

-It was pretty unbelievable that Andromeda's crew could create another accident so soon after the initial slipstream that trapped them in the past.

perhaps not- they had all the data in the computer - they replicated the conditions (see, for example, Trek's Mirror, Mirror).

Which leads to a bigger question: Can they now travel in time? Can they alter the sequence slightly to control where they're going? I hope not. I'd have been more comfortable if they'd stuck in a line of dialogue explaining how this was a once in a lifetime fluke kind of condition.

Well obviously the Enterprise C and Dr. McCoy weren't going to change time either--but they still gave us 2 of the all-time best episodes in the history of Star Trek in "Yesterday's Enterprise" and "City On The Edge of Forever"!

Actually, in those eps, time was changed, and then had to be set right -- another overused time travel plot altogether, but one that is easier to come up with new variations of. ::Tomm

The point I was making was only that not only CAN you have good time travel stories, we DO have some good time travel stories.

And, as it turned out, THIS one was pretty decent too.

I understand that, but KAM's concern, which I shared, was not that time-travel stories in general tend to be difficult to pull off, but that this particular type of time-travel plotline is almost always done badly. Fortunately the writers and the characters were able to pull it off

Apparently Len skipped over my 2nd sentence, If the story does follow that plot summary, and only read my 3rd & 4th sentences then jumped to the conclusion that I was against all time travel stories.

-I still wonder why they made an "in the flesh" version of Rommie. - Mike Ram
Two real reasons are they can have the actors interact instead of acting against a blue screen, & it's less expensive to have the actress there than add her image in post-production. Also it increases the possibility of some hot & steamy sex scenes during sweeps.

Considering that Trance had never piloted Slipstream before why did Rommie have her 'real' body on the Bridge? Didn't she know she could be tossed around?

Dylan thinks altering time could keep Andromeda from being rescued. I guess Beka never told him that Andromeda would be free of the black hole in a few years anyway.

Andromeda says, "Some things are more theoretical than others." Wouldn't that make them hypothetical?

Rev says that his people believe God invented nightmares because he invented them. Why would the Magog have that point of view about themselves? Wouldn't they see themselves & the way they live as normal? Wouldn't they create God in their image, just as Humans did?

Dylan really strikes me as indecisive. Maybe it's just the writers trying to make him appear thoughtful, but it doesn't work. (I seem to remember in the DS9 Guide Phil commenting on the difference between Sisko & Picard, one of which was that Picard never tried to appear indecisive in front of his crew while Sisko did, not unlike Dylan.)

A warship that doesn't want to run away from a fight. That could be a bad thing. I do like how Rommie refers to the lost ships first & the people second, though. (IIRC she did a similar thing in D Minus Zero.)

Ultimately, a pointless episode. Slow moving, nothing revealed that could not of been revealed in other eps, and probably no consequences in later shows.

And Len, there is lots of time travel stories I like. Doctor Who, William Tenn's short story Brooklyn Project, an X Minus 1 radio ep about Sam, the time-talker, etc., etc.
It's not very nice leaping to a conclusion and trying to force someone into defending a point of view you think they have.

I believe the title is actually Angel Dark, Demon Bright.

Rev says that his people believe God invented nightmares because he
invented them. Why would the Magog have that point of view about
themselves? Wouldn't they see themselves & the way they live as normal?
Wouldn't they create God in their image, just as Humans did?

I get the impression that Way-ism is a religion that started among a different race, possibly the humans. It has been stated several times that Rev is definitely not typical of his race.

Also, I interpreted the statement differently: as a variation on the koan that if evil exists can God be All-Good and All-Powerful? Rev's answer is that God allows evil because sentience without free will would be a greater evil. (This sounds almost nothing like Rev's actual statement because both are attepmts to reduce to one line a philosophy that needs a lot more to fully explain.)

Apparently Len skipped over my 2nd sentence, If the story does follow that plot summary, and only read my 3rd & 4th sentences then jumped to the conclusion that I was against all time travel stories. . . . And Len, there is lots of time travel stories I like. . . .
It's not very nice leaping to a conclusion and trying to force someone into defending a point of view you think they have. ::KAM

To the extent I mischaracterized your post, I apologize. But by assuming that I was “leaping to a conclusion” and “trying to force” you “into defending a point of view” that I think you may have, aren’t YOU leaping to a conclusion? I wasn’t trying to force you to do anything – I just read your post a little too fast.

And in any event, to the extent you were attacking the “we’re back in time, should we alter the past?” sub-sub-genre of SF (or the sub-genre of Time travel), aside from the Trek and B5 examples I cited, the premise of my response is still valid: EVERYTHING's been done poorly at one time or another. That doesn't mean that EVERYTHING can't be done right! Any concept, in the hands of good writers can succeed.

And as to this particular episode,

Ultimately, a pointless episode. Slow moving, nothing revealed that could not of been revealed in other eps, and probably no consequences in later shows. . . . Dylan really strikes me as indecisive. Maybe it's just the writers trying to make him appear thoughtful, but it doesn't work. (I seem to remember in the DS9 Guide Phil commenting on the difference between Sisko & Picard, one of which was that Picard never tried to appear indecisive in front of his crew while Sisko did, not unlike Dylan.)



I don’t quite understand the criticism that all the revelations could have been revealed in other eps – isn’t that true for ANY type of story? This ep revealed the answer to why the Nietzscheans aren’t the rulers of the galaxy – and it did it in an interesting way. Dylan’s dilemma over killing the 100,000 Nietzscheans worked for me.

And the fact that he HAD a dilemma ALSO worked for me. The fact that he did not hide his thoughts from the crew makes sense in that he’s NOT dealing with a standard trained obedient Commonwealth crew- he’s trying to forge a crew out of disparate individuals used to looking out for number 1 and a buck, who are not inclined to follow him. In a sense, he’s trying to educate them- to proselytize them to his cause. Part of that process would entail involving them in and pointing out to them the ethical deliberations of the situation. So I’d think comparisons to Picard are not necessarily on point.

It’s a new series…and it has the burden of having many SURFACE similarities to Trek…I think the key is watching it develop and seeing where it goes.

Why didn't Tyr reveal that significant fact about
the Nitchzean fleet being decimated earlier?
(Shorter episode.)

So if the Andromeda hadn't travelled backward
does that mean that the outcome of the battle
would have been different?

Basically history wasn't changed by the Andromeda's presence because in the end it becomes evident that they were meant to be there
all along and Harper's weapon was supposed to have had the decisive effect it had.

In other words history can't be changed.
At least that is the moral of the story.

Loved the scolding Dylan gave Tyr 'cause Tyr
didn't ask permission to teach Trance to pilot!

I believe this episode is what Star Trek has called a Predestination Paradox.

It's actually ambiguous as to what the opinion of the Andromeda Universe is with respect to the possibility of time travel. From what we saw, I think we can only conclude the following:

1) Time travel is possible

2) Time travel was known about BEFORE this episode - I say this because the crew just didn't seem that shocked that it had happened. (of course, that could be chalked up to bad writing or bad acting).

3) Time Travel before this ep could not be done at will (a la slingshot effect of Trek) - I say this because the crew did not seem sure that it would be able to get back.

4) Time travel MAY be possible at will now - assuming all the info is in Andromeda's memory, why not? I HOPE this is not the case.

5) Changing the timeline did NOT happen in this episode.

6) It is unclear as to whether the timeline can be changed.

Guess we'll have to wait until future episodes to see how this all plays out.

I'm not sure why Dylan was angry with Beka and Try (well, actually I understand the reaction) since Andromeda was there, and she obviously didn't have a problem with the training.

What gets me is Dylan's hand-wringing over this. He knows what will occur should he not act And they were at war. He should've destoyed as many of the Nietchian ships as possible.

In fact, I would've warned the High Guard fleet before I left. Had they known that those ships were there the Commonwealth may have survived.

I also find it implausible that Hunt's fellow High Guard commander would go with him at the moment of the Commonwealth's last stand on nothing more than his say so. For all she really knew Hunt could've been in an enemy prison camp for that 13 months being tortured for information and brainwashed.

Finally Hunt's friend is destroyed without firing even a token shot.

What gets me is Dylan's hand-wringing over this. He knows what will occur should he not act And they were at war. He should've destoyed as many of the Nietchian ships as possible.

I think its clear that killing is always the last choice for Dylan. It was in no way clear that the killing had to be done here. And even it was, that doesn't make it easy to do. Do you really think you could kill 100,000 people without a second thought. Even in war. And even if you could, you're not Dylan. We're learning who he is with each episode. This episode gave us a good piece of his characterization.

I know I'm a little late posting here, but I just finished reading the posts and I can't believe that most people missed the most significant revelation about this episode: The entire thing was not an accident, it was -ARRANGED- by Trance. The very last scene was the most significant one in the entire show - just watch the satisfied look on her face as she trims the branch of that plant. Now think back to the earlier scene where Trance is talking to Dylan about how to trim her plants: "a snip here, and a snip there"...Symbolism anyone? Trance is apparently being set up to be some kind of mysterious "cosmic gardener"...And truthfully, I was rather unsure about this episode until I saw that last scene - It truly made the show for me...

. . .And she cuts of a rather significant branch too. Hmmm. . .

Good observation Psiberian!

THe question though is, "What branch did she trim with this whole incident?"

Great line: "I am become Death. The destroyer of worlds". -- Hunt before he sets off the explosion. This quote is from the Bhagavad-Gita, and it's relevance here is that Oppenheimer said the same thing after viewing the Trinity explosion.

they've related Slipstream travel to quantum mechanics and Heisenberg's uncertainty theory

Yeah. I seem to recall hearing someone say something about the probability wave collapsing. (you just knew *I'd* catch that one!).

Two interesting facts from the ep:

Slipstream is the only known way to travel faster than light in the Andromeda universe.

Obviously the sensors are only working with c, unlike the ones in Trek.

Dataport date: 5.7.10087

Sorry, but that answer is incomplete, Mr. Jamilkowski. Remember a large portion of this story was set around 300 years in the past, so that date should be included as well.

This takes your grade down to a B+.

PSiberian - yeah, I totally agree! At the beginning, when they find out they're at the Witchead nebula, Trance gets this little smile on her face and the music goes all 'tingly' and weird.